Be Gay, Do Crime - A Gay Celebration for Pride Month - Details Are Sketchy

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Kiki and I'm Rachel, and this is.
Details Are Sketchy A truecrime podcast, and this is
episode 18.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
And I'm doing a special Pride Month episode.
So hello, hello and happy PrideMonth to all my fellow ladies
and gentlethems and all youother anti-capitalist queer fey
and folk and our straight alliesbe gay and do crime.

(00:30):
Um, so I don't didn't want totalk about, like we're not going
to talk about.
In case people are like oh, Idon't want to hear about gay
people getting killed, you'renot going to hear about that and
you're not going to hear about.
You're not going to hear aboutthat and you're not going to
hear about.
We're not going to hear aboutany like Jeffrey Dahmer style
serial killers today, becausethat's not the queer

(00:52):
representation that we arelooking for.

Speaker 1 (00:58):
Yeah, so your stories aren't exactly crime, but they
were crime at the time.
Well, yes, exactly, yeah, crime, but they were crime at the
time.

Speaker 2 (01:03):
Well, yes, Well, yeah , we're going to just talk about
people existing.
Yeah, some queer history and,yeah, the history of be gay do
crime, because existing as aqueer person has been illegal

(01:24):
and is illegal in 64 differentcountries in the world currently
.
So we're going to talk aboutthat.

Speaker 1 (01:34):
Yes, but before we do that, I have a missing person.
Her name is Catherine AnnFerguson.
She goes by Katie is KatherineAnn Ferguson?
She goes by Katie.
She was last seen on October5th 2023 in Truman, arizona.
Other sources say the lastcontact was October 9th 2023.

(02:01):
She is 5'9", between 150 and180 pounds.
Her hair is brown, this postersays, but I think it's blonde.
In all of her pictures it'sblonde and her eyes are blue and
, for reasons we'll get to later, most, if not all, of the law
enforcement agencies involveddon't think she's alive.
All of the law enforcementagencies involved don't think

(02:23):
she's alive.
So this is more of like a bodyrecovery type of missing person,
although we hope she's aliveAll right, you ready?

Speaker 2 (02:37):
Yeah, okay, I mean, of course, okay.
So this might be a little bitall over the place because I was
really struggling with myorganization skills and such.
Yeah, the past week, coupleweeks just haven't been able to

(02:58):
get it together super great, butI have an idea and we're going
to attempt to execute it.
Yeah, like I said, I don't wantto.
I've seen people talk about youknow doing like a special pride

(03:19):
edition where we're talkingabout whatever like oh, it's a
gay serial killer, like how fun,but that's not the kind of fun
that you know strikes me as likethis is inciting pride.
So the phrase be gay, do crimeis a term you've probably heard

(03:41):
of it, maybe you haven't Used bythe LGBTQIA plus community to
reclaim queer history and shedlight on the history and ongoing
oppression and criminalizationof gender and sexual minorities
and non-conforming people.
So some fun facts about theterm that I was able to find,

(04:01):
although the phrase existedbefore its online presence to
find.
Although the phrase existedbefore its online presence, the
first recorded instance of theterm be gay, do crime was posted
on Instagram by user absentobject on September 15, 2016,
and featured a photograph of theiconic word spray paint on a
wall in Marseille, france.
On June 2nd 2018, twitter user Idon't know how to say that IOA

(04:29):
Scarium tweeted an image of anadaptation of a Thomas Knapp's
political cartoon with askeleton holding up a sign whose
original caption was replacedwith a phrase.
Two days later, twitter ISISLovecraft tweeted just saw two
teenage girls hop the barkturnstile, rub the stairs and

(04:50):
start making out, and I couldn'tresist the urge to shout be gay
, do crimes.
And they raised their fists andshouted back Stonewall was a
riot.
So I'm informing you that thekids are, in fact, all right.
The tweet received more than69,000 likes and 12,000 retweets
in one year.
On August 10, 2018, gay StarNews published a history of this

(05:16):
slogan.
So why do queer people need toshed light on the history and
ongoing criminalization ofsexual and gender minorities?
Why do we need Pride Month andslogans like Stonewall is a riot
or be gay, do crime?
So the Stonewall riots?
We're not going to focus onthat, but just a little blurb.

(05:39):
Begin the early hours of June28th 1969, when New York City
police arrayed the Stonewall Inn, a gay club located in Grant
Village in New York City.
The array sparked a riot amongbar patrons and neighborhood
residents as the police roughlyhauled employees and patrons out

(05:59):
of the bar, leading to six daysof protests and violent clashes
with law enforcement outsidethe bar, on Christopher Street,
on neighborhood streets andnearby Christopher Parks.
And while the Stonewall Riotsweren't the first, certainly not
the last such riots, theyserved as a major catalyst for

(06:22):
the gay rights movement in theUnited States and around the
world.
So should I talk more about theStonewall riots, or you think
we?

Speaker 1 (06:31):
should.
I think a lot of people alreadyknow about that.

Speaker 2 (06:34):
So currently, what are the laws on LGBTQIA plus
people, legal provisionsaffecting our communities across
the world and grounds on sexualorientation, gender identity,
gender expression and sexualcharacteristics?
Fresh release in May 2024, lawson Us, a new flagship report by

(06:56):
the International Lesbian, gay,bisexual, trans and Intersex
Association, an NGO Association.
An NGO, together with ILGAWorld Database, follows the
footsteps of their previouslandmark reports.
They're just talking up theirown previous reports and
basically saying that it tracksthe development of legislation

(07:24):
and laws that criminalize thesecategories In 11 legal
categories the criminalizationof consensual same-sex sexual
acts, restrictions to freedom ofexpression and association,
prohibition of discrimination,hate law crime, prohibition of

(07:47):
incitement to hatred, violenceor discrimination, regulation of
so-called conversion therapies,marriage equality and other
form of civil unions, adoptionby same-sex couples,
restrictions on interventions onintersex minors and illegal
gender recognition.
So there are 64 countries thathave laws that criminalize

(08:12):
homosexuality.
Nearly half of these are inAfrica thanks to colonization,
and there's like a report thatshowed that there is a like a
direct link between coloniesthat were linked to Britain and
severity of laws thatcriminalize homosexuality.

(08:33):
So the countries that werecolonized by Britain have way
more severe laws againsthomosexuality than countries
that were colonized by othercountries so thanks my ancestors
, sarcasm, in case you didn'tand I think, 14 countries on

(09:03):
which have death penalties forhomosexuality.
I'm going to talk about LilyElby, who is commonly referred
to as the first trans persondocumented to undergo sex
reassignment surgery, althoughthat is incorrect as far as I

(09:26):
can tell.
She is the first trans woman toundergo sex reassignment
surgery.
Trans men, carl and Bear and DrAlan Hart preceded her, and I
did want to talk a little bitabout them, so I have just a

(09:48):
little aside, because that's thekind of we're going on.
A rachel, this is a rachel, youknow.
Come with me on my littlelittle asides.
Carl M Baer was the first transperson to receive sex

(10:10):
reassignment surgery.
So Carl M Baer was aGerman-Israeli author, social
worker and reformer.
He was believed to be bornintersex and assigned female at
birth.
He came out as a trans man in1904 at the age of 19, and in

(10:31):
December 1906 became the firsttransgender person to undergo
sex reassignment surgery.
And he became the firsttransgender person to gain legal
recognition of his genderidentity by having a male birth
certificate issued to him onJanuary 1907.

(10:53):
However, some researchers havedisputed his label as a trans
man, theorizing that he wasintersex and not transgender.
You can be intersex andtransgender, so that's bullshit.
So Baer wrote notes for thefamous sexologist Magnus

(11:13):
Hirschfeld on his experiencesgrowing up female while feeling
inside that he was a male, andtogether they developed these
notes into the semi-fictional,semi-autobiographical I can't
pronounce these German words,but the translation is Memoirs

(11:34):
of a Man's Maiden Years,published in 1907, published
under the pseudonym NO Body.
Under the pseudonym NO Body,the book was immensely popular
and was adapted twice in thefilm, in 1912 and 1919.
Bear also gained the right tomarry, and did so on October

(12:02):
1907.
So he underwent somegender-reaffirming surgery in
1906, but the records of whatkind of medical procedures he
underwent are unknown becausethose records were burned by the
Nazis.
Thanks, nazis, for being suchfucking assholes that targeted

(12:31):
Hirschfeld studies specifically,so we don't know too much about
that.
Okay, and then the nextgentleman we're going to talk
about.
Alan L Hart, also known asRobert Alan Bamford Jr, was an
American physician, radiologist,tuberculosis researcher, writer

(12:52):
and novelist.
Hart pioneered the use of x-rayphotography in tuberculosis
detection.
He worked in sanitariums andx-ray clinics in New Mexico,
illinois, washington and Idaho.
For the last 16 years of hislife he had enmasked x-ray

(13:14):
programs that screened fortuberculosis in Connecticut.
X-rays were not regularly usedto screen for tuberculosis prior
to Hart's innovation and arestill used for a gold standard
today, which has led researchersto believe he has saved
countless lives, which is sofucking cool.
And I was like how do I notknow?

(13:34):
How have we all not heard ofthis really cool trans man who
made these, this reallyremarkable innovation that saved
so many tuberculosis patients?
He was also a fiction authorand published over nine short
stories and four novels, whichincorporated drama, romance and

(13:59):
medical themes.
Circa 1917, hart became one ofthe first trans men in the
United States to undergo ahysterectomy and apparently
there's quite a controversy.
After his death, queersocieties posthumously

(14:25):
identified him as a lesbian whois incognito posing as a man so
that he could be in marriageswith women.
However, throughout his life heasserted that he was a man,
that his name was Alan, hesought gender-affirming

(14:47):
surgeries, he soughttestosterone therapy when it
became available to him, andthroughout his life he asserted
that he was a man, and also hiswife, after his death, asserted
that he was a man and not anundercover lesbian, and that, uh

(15:08):
, they perceive theirrelationship to be the
relationship of a straightcouple, and so for for many
years, however, uh, they hadlike, uh like dinners or
whatever for it on his behalfunder his dead name as a famous

(15:34):
lesbian, until some transactivists started to protest and
say, hey, this guy is not alesbian, he was actually a trans
man and reclaimed his identity.
Yeah, so in 1981, says theOregon Gay and Lesbian Rights

(15:57):
Pack called Right to Privacybegan hosting the Lucille Hart
Dinner.
They characterized Alan Hart asa famous lesbian from Portland
and this continued until likethe 90s.
In the popular 1985 pamphlet,information for the

(16:18):
female-to-male cross-dresser andtranssexual author and activist
, lou Sullivan, listed Alan Hartas a historical figure
representing transgender men.
In October 1994, candace HelenBrown, a male-to-female
transgender person residing inPortland, wrote a letter to the

(16:40):
editor of Just Out magazinedefending Hart's manhood and
criticizing the right to privacydinner.
In her letter she said theRight to Privacy Political
Action Committee in Oregon has abig fundraiser every night
called the Lucille Hart Dinner.
When asked if I'm going, Iindignantly answer not until
they stop using the wrong nameand gender for one of our heroes

(17:01):
.
His name was Alan.
He never wavered in hisidentity as a man and upon his
death his widow has continued toinsist he was a man.
Why would such a straight manbe called a lesbian by the gay
community when today we wouldcertainly call him a
female-to-male transsexual?
He was transsexual, or at leasta transgenderist, a true

(17:25):
pioneer when he was seen as ahero by today's transsexual
community.
Please don't let him be takenaway from us by allowing his old
name to be used as though itwere a badge of honor.
So Margaret Deirdre O'Hardigancalled this the opening shot in
the struggle to restore Hart'smanhood in the Phallus Palace.

(17:47):
That's quite a name.
In 1995, candace Helen Brown andother transsexuals in Portland
formed the Ad Hoc Committee ofTranssexuals to Recognize Alan
Hawk.
A representative from thecommittee, rachel Kotelius,
approached the Portland chapterof the Lesbian Avengers and

(18:08):
asked if they would like to seea presentation that argued their
case.
I don't know why they need tosay that.
They could just say trans womanor trans man.
Ken Morris were persuaded tobelieve that Alan Hart was a

(18:32):
transgender man.
After attempting to negotiatewith the Right to Privacy
Commission, the Lesbian Avengersand Ad Hoc Committee,
transsexuals decided to protestthe Lucille Hart dinner and
other events.
So eventually they did changeit and fix it in March 1996.

(18:57):
The Board of Right to Privacyannounced they would change the
name of the Lucille Hart dinner.
According to Max, the articlespresented to us were convincing
and influenced our decision.
Right to Privacy settled on thename Right to Pride for the
next year of the same year.
In 1999, right to Pridedissolved and many members

(19:18):
joined Basic Rights Oregon, asimilar gay and lesbian group.
They used Hart's name forfundraising in 2000 for the 17th
annual Hart Dinner and usedboth she and he pronouns for him
in the pamphlet.
I guess baby steps.
In 2003, the writer Joy Parksdescribed the battle, especially

(19:40):
within Portland Oregon LGBTcommunities, over Hart's
identity as extremely ugly, andone of which neither side
appeared particularly victorious.
Anyway, that's just like alittle overview, but anyway,
writers in the 2020 formainstream publications portray

(20:03):
Alan Hart rightfully as atransgender man, which is he
only ever presented himself as aman.
The Oregon Encyclopediaacknowledges that there is a
conflict over his identity, butrefers to him as one of the
first female to male transgenderpersons to undergo a
hysterectomy in the UnitedStates and live the remainder of

(20:24):
his life as a man.
Scientific American referredHart as a trailblazing
transgender doctor in 2021.
So I guess that's why.
I guess that's part of thereason why some of the sources
list.
Sources list Lily Albee as thefirst trans person to undergo

(20:45):
SRS surgery, but obviously thiswas kind of an aside so I didn't
get to read as much about him.
But what I did read about him Ididn't see anything.
It didn't seem like there wasany controversy to be had, that
he was very clear about who hewas and his identity.

(21:08):
Um, it was only after his deaththat, um, you know, some people
decided to interpret it justseems like trans erasure.
I'm glad that that issue orcontroversy seems to have been
righted in recent years.

(21:28):
But but, yeah, what a cooldoctor.
And hopefully, now that youknow that fight seems to be over
.
I hope that.
Anyway, back to Lily Elby.
Lily Elby and her wife, GerbaGottlieb or Gerba Wegener, born

(22:15):
December 28, 1882, as Einar we,the Encyclopedia Britannica,
claims that Lily lived most ofher life as a man.
I would object and say thatLily lived most of her life not
socially out, not living lifepublicly as a woman, life
publicly as a woman, due to thepublicity that both Lily Albee
and Gerda Wagner received duringtheir time as public figures

(22:37):
and artists.
It was Albee's story and thecouple's relationship that
established the relevance oftheir transgender experiences
within public discourses, sotheir lasting publicity and
social impact were furtherreinforced by Lily Albee's
autobiography.
More words I can't say, but thetranslation is.

(23:00):
Translation is From man toWoman.
Lily Albee's Confession, whichwas published in Denmark in 1931
, and centers both herexperiences of daily life and
her transition process in detail.

(23:29):
Lily Albee and Gerda Gottliebwere where both were exceptional
artists first and foremost.
Most recently, their story wasportrayed in the movie the
Danish Girl, which was based onthe fictional book of the same
name by David Ebershoff in 2000.
David Ebershoff.
In 2000, david Ebershoff wrotethe Danish Girl fictionalized
account of Elby's life.

(23:50):
It was an internationalbest-selling novel and was
translated into many languages.
It provided an early fictionalaccount of gender affirmation

(24:10):
surgery, which shaped LGBTQ plusliterature.
In 2015, it was made into a filmof the same name, produced by
Gail Motrix and Neil Laboot,starring Eddie Redmayne as Elby.
The film was well received atthe Venice Film Festival in
September 2015, although it hasbeen rightly criticized for
casting a cisgender man to playa transgender woman.

(24:32):
Both the novel and film omittedseveral very important fucking
topics, including Gottlieb'ssexuality including Gottlieb's
sexuality, which is evidenced bythe subjects in her very
sapphic erotic drawings, and thedisintegration of Gottlieb and

(24:53):
Albie's relationship after theirannulment, believe that Albie

(25:15):
was born in 1882 in Velvele,denmark, the child of Anne-Marie
Thompson and spice merchantMogens Wilhelm Wagner, according
to the Register at St NikolaiChurch.
According to the Registry at StNikolai Church, her birth year

(25:40):
is sometimes cited as 1886 by abook about her in which some
facts were changedb's lifesuggest that the 1882 date is
the correct one, because theymarried while at college in 1904
, when Elby would have been just18 if the 1886 date were
correct.
She was a painter under herbirth name Einar Wegner.

(26:05):
After transitioning in 1930,she changed her legal name to
Lili Ilse Ilvenes and stoppedpainting and later adopted the
surname Albie, the surname Albie.

(26:29):
Albie met Gerda Gottlieb whilethey were students in the Royal
Danish Academy of Fine Arts inCopenhagen and they married in
1904 when Gottlieb was 19 andAlbie was 22.
Gerda came from a conservativefamily, as her father was a
vicar in the Lutheran Church.
They worked as illustrators,with Albee specializing in

(26:53):
landscape paintings, whileGottlieb illustrated books and
fashion magazines.
Lily Albee's earlier worksconsist primarily of wide-angle
landscape paintings.
During this time, landscapepainting was considered a
masculine discipline, which Ithought was really interesting.
Her artistic choices, such aswide-angle perspective and the

(27:15):
exclusive depiction of untouchednatural landscape.
This is like I got thisinformation from, like an art
scene source.

(27:37):
So don't think I'm suddenly anexpert on art.
I just think I'm just like thisis pretty.
I just think I'm just like thisis pretty.
Which are both considereddistinctly masculine artistic
choices within the Danishartistic context of the time.
Furthermore, in herautobiography, she described her

(28:15):
process of painting in a mannerthat would have been understood
as masculine in her time.
This included her emphasis onthe frantic, violent process of
creation and her identificationwith bird watchers and
naturalists, while painting,which were exclusively male
professions at the time.
Painting, which wereexclusively male professions at
the time.
Her painting Poplars AlongHobra Fjord is a prime example
from her earlier works, which isa wide-angle depiction of a

(28:36):
natural landscape with onlymarginal human influences, and
the color palette ispredominantly dark greens and
browns.
Uh, hang on, let me show, kitty, a picture, let me find a
picture of this painting.
I wish that we we had a littlelike you know paint painting.

(29:00):
Uh, you know show and tell, sowe can walk through their
paintings as we talk about them.

Speaker 1 (29:08):
Well, if we did these on video.

Speaker 2 (29:10):
Yeah, but you better look at me.

Speaker 1 (29:18):
I don't think you're going to look any worse than
most of the people.

Speaker 2 (29:23):
So here we go.
This is the painting thatthey're talking about, oh lovely
.
The couple traveled throughItaly and France before settling
in Paris in 1912, where Elbycould live more openly as a
woman by posing as Gottlieb'ssister-in-law, scandal Mm-hmm.

(29:46):
Elby received the Nahusen'sPrize in 1907, which I don't
know what that is, I'm guessingit's some artsy-fartsy prize
Probably and exhibited atKuhnsternen's I don't know, I

(30:07):
cannot say the word.
Effe Sudstilling, the Artist'sFall Exhibition, that's quite a
word.
Yeah, for exhibition At the VLHArtists Museum in Denmark,
where she remains presented, andin the Saloon and Salon

(30:30):
d'Automne in Paris.
Albie started dressing inwomen's clothes after she found
she enjoyed stockings and heelsshe wore to sometimes fill in
for Gottlieb's model actressAnna Larson, who on one occasion
had been late for a sitting.
Larson suggested the name Lilyand by the 1920s Albie regularly

(30:59):
presented with that name as awoman attending various
festivities and entertainingguests in her house.
Gottlieb became famous for herpaintings of beautiful women
with haunting almond-shaped eyes, dressed in chic apparel.
The model for these depictionsof petite femme fatales was

(31:24):
Albie, and there's a petitefemme fatale drawing or drawing
painting let me pull that up ofGottlieb, and all the models are
LB and she.
I guess we'll talk about thatmore, but she used her as a

(31:49):
model quite a bit and that wasone of the things that drew me
to to this story.
It's just the like, the lovingway that she depicted her wife
and the way that she depictedthem together.
There's that painting Lovely.

(32:13):
All of the women are modeledafter Elby.
As mentioned above, many of LilyElby's paintings feature
bridges, either in thebackground or in the center.
Within her autobiography, shespecifically describes herself
as a bridge between both man andwoman, as well as between the

(32:34):
masculine and feminine parts ofher own personality.
Her painting Ponce sur la Lioris a perfect example of how she
used bridges as a metaphor forher transition.
At the center of the paintingstands the motionless bridge
stable above and beneathturbulent waters, transitioning

(32:58):
from dark shades of blue intosunbathing shimmers of pastel
turquoise.
The painting techniques used toconvey these different shades
and transitions are as complexand layered as its metaphor and
show the true artistic skill ofLily Elby.
Let me find that painting we'regoing to look at lots of.

(33:21):
I'm going to make Katie look atlots of paintings and I guess I
can put some of these into thelike Instagram.

Speaker 1 (33:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:34):
There's that, oh nice .
In her autobiography, sheexplained that she quit painting
because she closely associatedit with masculinity and thus
regarded it as increasinglyincompatible with her female
self.
This association was, asmentioned earlier, fundamentally

(33:58):
influenced by the artisticconventions of the time, which
considered Lily Albee's works,through their category of
landscape painting, asdefinitively masculine.
Despite ultimately consideringher painting incompatible with
her transition, Albee didattempt to create a feminine

(34:18):
artistic space within her laterworks.
One of her few portraits,Portrait de la Femme,
potentially a self-portrait,were in her singular depiction
of a woman's chamber titled AnInterior of a Boudoir,

(34:40):
Luxuriously adorned in warm huesof deep red and sparkling gold.
The painting centers on thefemale form, absent physically,
but represented these artisticwoman's clothes strewn across

(35:01):
the space.
I wish that my space were sobeautiful.
It's kind of.

Speaker 1 (35:08):
Right.
How come our clothing strewnabout is mess and not art?

Speaker 2 (35:13):
Notably the miniature paintings on the wall serve as
the sole direct representationof the female body within the
room, showcasing a harmoniousfusion between Lily Albee's
landscape paintings and theexplicit female portraits of her
spouse, gerda Wegner.
Let's find that interior of aboudoir.

(35:35):
I know it's probably not veryexciting for our listeners, but
if you are listening along,maybe you can look up these.

Speaker 1 (35:49):
Well, you can put them on the thing and label
which ones, which that's true,we can do that, and then you can
look at them.

Speaker 2 (35:57):
Oh nice, that painting on the wall does look
like one of her wife's paintings.
Yeah, so gerda, like her spouselily, showcases an extensive
artistic evolution through herartwork and her early art.
She was pretty traditional inher portrait paintings and her

(36:19):
style was pretty based inrealism.
But she encountered a lot ofrestrictions with the
conservative Danish artcommunity due to her gender and
her affinity for new artisticmovements.
Her painting Portrait of Ellenvon Kohl was explicitly rejected

(36:42):
from several exhibitions due toits subtle influences from Art
Nouveau in the patterns of thedress and embellishments and
because it was painted by afemale painter.

Speaker 1 (36:56):
Caught those snooty art communities.

Speaker 2 (36:59):
The portrait became a part of a wide-ranging debate
and sparked a flurry ofresponses in the newspaper
Politiken, with opinions both infavor and against the
spiritualized, refined symbolismdepicted in the image.
I bet she loved that.
Oh yeah, those who were againstit dubbed.

(37:21):
Those against it were dubbedthe peasant painters.
The peasant painter feuddemanded reformation and gender
equality within the Danish artcommunity.

(37:42):
Nevertheless, yeah, thecouple's decision to move to
Paris.
So let's look at this portraitof Ellen von Kohl, which is
pretty different than her otherlater stuff.
It's much more like traditionalthere.

(38:05):
It is Very controversial.

Speaker 1 (38:09):
So terribly controversial yeah.

Speaker 2 (38:20):
Just a nice picture.
It is painted by a woman yep ofa woman, of a woman yep.
In paris, gerda found freedomand popularity.
Painting now an openly artnouveau and later art deco style
, she swiftly became a centralfigure within the Parisian
artistic elite.
With the liberation of herartistic style likewise becoming

(38:44):
a diversification of her came adiversification of subject
matter.
Both before and after she cameto Paris, she primarily painted
women.
However, after arriving inParis, the figures she depicted
and their expressions offemininity became more diverse.
The femininity of the womenwithin her paintings ranged from

(39:06):
delicate and traditionallyfeminine, burdened with lace,
tiny wa waist and wide gowns, tothe modern and more androgynous
garcon women with short hairand loose-fitting clothes of
contemporary fashion.
Her depictions of womenencompass a range from
conventional and neutralportraits to placing women

(39:30):
within the urban environment andits modernity.
She transitioned from subtlysuggestive portraits to openly
erotic depictions.
Yes, she did, Featuring bothindividual women and couples
engaged in intimate activitiesOoh, activities.
Les Femmes Fatales is anillustration of her more

(39:53):
traditional and subtlysuggestive portraits.
We already looked at that one.
The painting features threewomen with androgynous short
hair, minimal jewelry and frillydresses with makeup.
Despite these modern touches,their femininity is emphasized
through delicate postures,decorative butterfly and floral

(40:15):
motifs.
Due to her extensive popularityduring her lifetime, Gerda was
able to financially sustainherself with her art, and that
made me wonder if she wassustaining them both, but I
wasn't able to find out thatinformation.

Speaker 1 (40:31):
I would assume so, if L I wasn't able to find out
that information I would assumeso.
If yeah, lb wasn't doinganything, that's what I would
assume too, right yeah, becausewell what else she was modeling
for gerda, but well, if she'smodeling for her wife, then she
wasn't getting paid.

Speaker 2 (40:47):
You're welcome huh exactly, and she quit painting.
So she was just being a cutekept wife like she deserved to
be of course, the theirpaintings together are so cute.
There's a bunch of paintings ofthem together and they're such
a cute couple, yeah, and we'llpost one of them.

(41:08):
So she's standing there withGerda expressing, you know,
socially, as a man, and they'readmiring, and she's looking at

(41:38):
people admiring paintings ofherself as a woman and you know,
wondering like who's?
You know who's this beautifulwoman depicted in the painting?
and it's her yeah so that's gotto be a pretty cool feeling,
yeah.
So she consequently sold herart in a wide diversity of

(42:03):
artistic contexts, ranging fromprestigious art galleries to
postcards and magazines and evencommercial advertisements for
beauty and cosmetic products.
Women with Masks, for instance,is one of her many
advertisements, specificallyadvertising a luxury face brand

(42:24):
Creme, tendelice, in a playfuland distinctively art nouveau
manner.
So probably a lot of this timeis me looking at these paintings
so I can show you.
Oh yeah, obviously, one ofGerda's favorite models was Lily
.
In her autobiography, lilyrecalls the transformative

(42:48):
moment during her transitionwhen the actress Anna Larson
couldn't attend a portraitsession with Wagner, larson
suggested Elby as a replacementto avoid any delays, both Elby
and Wagner describe Elby'sliberation through the repeated
portrayal as a woman, asdepicted in the painting Queen

(43:11):
of Hearts.
That's one of my favorite ones.
Despite written sourcesportraying Albie as passively
involved, the portraits reveal aconfident and active subject.
Queen of Hearts showcases Albieas a self-assured model, gazing
directly at the observer withambiguous defiance.

(43:32):
The portrait is rich in detail,capturing the graceful posture,
art deco patterns and decisivebrushstrokes reflecting wagner's
deep care for her art and forlily albie.
Okay, let's find that one.
It's called Queen of Hearts.
Here it is.
Oh yeah, I love that one.

(43:54):
Jay was like why don't youpaint me?
I'm like I'm not a world-classpainter.
The outline differences betweenwhat is written within Lily
Albee's autobiography and herportrayal within her own art and
the portraits of Gerda Wagnerare particularly important when

(44:17):
taken into context into theaccount in which the
autobiography was written andpublished.
Able to undergogender-affirming surgery, lily
Albee expressed experiences thathad not been established within
popular or artistic discoursesand, furthermore, within Danish

(44:40):
legal context of the time, boththe gender-affirming surgery and
the change of name could onlybe legally accepted if the
individual could prove to thejudges that to indisputably
belong to the according gender.
The autobiography should thusbe regarded as a testament of

(45:01):
what, in the popular opinion ofthe time, was considered
womanhood and how Lily Elbyadhered thereto, rather than an
accurate and full account of herexperiences.
This is especially relevantwhen considering how the
autobiography portrays Lily Elbyas distinctly passive
throughout her transitionbecause, of course, women are

(45:25):
passive and how it highlightsher definitive rejection of her
art within its masculineconnotations after the public
start of the transition, and howit represents her relationship
with Gerda Wagner.
The autobiography defines therelationship between Lily
Alvinus and Gerda Wagner as anexclusively companionable

(45:46):
relationship throughout theirmarriage.
However, an open romanticrelationship with Gerda would,
at that time, have caused theleast transition to be delayed
by the Danish authorities.
Not delayed, denied sorry, itwould have been denied.
The reason for this is that theDanish legal authorities did

(46:09):
not yet consider distinctionsbetween sexual orientation and
gender identity, but insteadunderstood transgender
identities in an exclusivelyheteronormative framework.
Boo which it seems highlyprobable that they did, it would

(46:36):
have most likely beenrestricted to a private context
to avoid endangering Lily Elby'slegal status.
Examining their art, bothgenerally and in the sheer
number of portraits of Lily thatGerda Wagner created, it is
apparent that they had a deeplyloving relationship.
Notably, their shared presencein works like Capri signifies a

(47:01):
profound connection.
Okay, I've got another pictureto look up.
I don't know if you can see.
Look there they're standingtogether on the balcony.
Oh, yeah, in Capri, elvieportrays a vibrant landscape

(47:22):
with both herself and Wagner.
Oh, this is one of Lily'spaintings Gazing into its
beautyner in turn captures theircloseness in portraits like Sir
La Rute de super french name,let me look that up de Anna

(47:46):
Capuis.
It seems like it's the samekind of shit, same vacation or
same place that they're at,capui.
It seems like it's the samekind of shit, same vacation, or
same place that they're at Lookslike a vacation to me.
Maybe that's their regular life.

Speaker 1 (48:01):
I doubt it.

Speaker 2 (48:02):
Okay, yeah, that one.
I like that one, oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:11):
It's very 1920s.

Speaker 2 (48:14):
While these artworks we're getting there don't
explicitly confirm a romanticrelationship, they suggest a
caring and complimentary bondbetween the two.
It's definitely suggestive.
Here's another one yeah, looksromantic to one, mm-hmm.
Yeah, looks romantic to me,mm-hmm.
Here's where it all wentdownhill.

(48:39):
So in 1930, albie went toGermany for sex reassignment
surgery, which was highlyexperimental, of course at the
time was highly experimental ofcourse at the time.
I mean, it wasn't really achoice for her because she was
having some bad dysphoria andcontemplating suicide before she

(49:02):
learned about these options.
So while in Germany, she stayedat the Hirschfeld Institute for
Sexual Sciences, germany.
She stayed at the HirschfeldInstitute for Sexual Sciences,
that same Mansfield, magnusHirschfeld, that same dude.
I don't know how this dudefancied himself some kind of

(49:23):
expert on these, but you knowhow white dudes did back in the
day they just declared it yeah.
So prior to commencing anysurgical procedures, lb's
psychological health wasevaluated by German sexologist

(49:44):
Magnus Hirschfeld through aseries of tests.
A series of four operationswere then carried out over a
period of two years.
The first surgery was performedin Berlin, and it was the
removal of her testicles, whichis now a pretty routine surgery

(50:08):
that is done today.
Still, that's a pretty routinesurgery that is done today,
still Carried out by ErwinGerban.
I don't know if it matters whocarried it out.
The remainder of her surgerieswere carried out by some other
dude, a doctor at DresdenMunicipal Women's Clinic.

(50:29):
All of her medical documentswere also ruined as a
consequence of Allied bombingraids that destroyed the clinic
and its archives.
The second operation was toimplant an ovary.
This is what I mean by this wasa real experimental time.
Like they didn't have, like youknow, just estradiol and shit

(50:53):
that they could give her.
So they implanted an ovary intoher abdominal musculature.
In the third they removed herpenis and scrotum.
By this time her case had becomea sensation in Danish and
German newspapers.
A Danish court annulled thecouple's marriage in October

(51:18):
1930.
As we mentioned before, theycould not remain married in
order for Lily to proceed withbeing recognized as a woman.
Unfortunately, that led to thedissolution of their
relationship.
Lb was able to have her sex andname legally changed.

(51:44):
She even received a passportwith the name Lily Ilse Ilvenes.
The name Lily LB was first usedin print in a Danish newspaper
article written by Copenhagenjournalist Louise Lassen for
Politiken.
That's that same fuckingnewspaper that was talking shit

(52:06):
about Gerber, so I already don'tfeel good things about them.
In February 1931, elby returnedto Dresden and began a
relationship with French artdealer Claude Lehoune, whom she
wished to marry and with whomshe wished to have children.

(52:28):
This is the part where I wasalso like, was this an
expectation of the Danishgovernment?
Yeah, because at her age, likewe had mentioned in our
conversation before the podcast,even if we're going to talk

(52:51):
about she had a uterinetransplant which ended up
causing her death.
But at her age, even if it hadbeen successful, like you know,
at that time, that's, you know,not an age in which she's

(53:11):
probably going to be having ababy, and so I'm not sure if
this was, you know, is thisreally her dream?
Like, I know that she expressedthat, you know, in her book.
But, like you know, the artwebsite mentioned is that she
had to express certain thingsthat aligned with the Danish

(53:33):
government's view of theirexpectations of her.
So did she really have such adesire to have a child?
Or was that something that theyreally wanted her to express,
you know, in order for them toapprove?
Like, oh, like, she must be awoman because she wants to have

(53:56):
a baby, right, you know kind ofthing, but either way, I guess
we will never know for sure.
Gerda went on to marry anItalian man after separating
from LB, although that marriageended in divorce shortly after.
In 1931, lb returned for herfourth surgery to transplant a

(54:23):
uterus and construct a vaginalcanal.
This made her one of theearliest transgender women to
undergo vaginoplasty surgery, afew weeks after Erwin Gorbant
performed the experimentalprocedure on Dora Richter.

(54:45):
Unfortunately, followingAlbee's forced surgery, her
immune system rejected thetransplanted uterus, which led
to organ rejection due to tissuecompatibility of the grafted
uterus and, ultimately,significant decrease in the

(55:07):
leak's immunity, in Lily'simmunity, which caused infection
and led to her death fromcardiac arrest on the 13th of
September in 1931 in Dresden,germany, three months after the
surgery.
So yeah, that really sucked ass.
I saw some of the paintings ofLily and the way that Gerba

(55:32):
portrayed her and portrayedtheir relationship.
You know I thought was so sweetand of course it reminded me of
me and my wife.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (55:41):
God, you're such a romantic.
Well, sure you used to not beVery true.
Very true, well, you's verytrue.
Very true.
Well, you'd cringe anytimeanything got romantic.

Speaker 2 (55:56):
I still cringe about other people's romances, just
not my own.
I'm sorry, love, that I'm not awonderful painter, so that I
can't paint beautiful portraitsof you.

Speaker 1 (56:14):
Okay.
So my missing person, Katie,had been visiting family in
Alabama for the summer and shehad been traveling back home
with her ex-boyfriend, adam andtheir two kids.
They were going back to codywyoming um.
Her boyfriend, adam, and thetwo kids made it to cody, but

(56:39):
katie did not.
Katie was believed to be okay inthe area of truman, arkansas I
think I had said arizona beforeI meant ark, I'm sorry On
October 5th 2023, and possibleviolence occurred on or before
October 9th 2023, when Adam'svehicle, a 1999 Dodge Durango,

(57:02):
was seen with a projectiledefect on the front passenger
door, which is where Katie wouldbe sitting passenger door,
which is where Katie would besitting.
She had been reported missingon November 2nd 2023 by her mom
and her mom reported her missingto the Cody Police Department
On November 4th 2023, someonereported Adam's vehicle

(57:23):
abandoned in Park County.
Deputies responded toinvestigate and observed the
front passenger seat was missing.
A projectile hole was on theinside and outside of the front
passenger door, a loaded Glock45 pistol magazine was in the
car and the car smelled of quoteputrefied blood, which was

(57:44):
later confirmed by lab techs ashuman blood from an unknown
source.
While deputies were stillinvestigating, adam walked up to
the car with a gas can and saidhe was there because the
Durango ran out of gas and wasinoperable.
Adam was arrested on November 8, 2023, in Wyoming on suspicion

(58:05):
of drug possession andunauthorized use of someone
else's vehicle and booked in thePark County Detention Center.
A web search indicates thatAdam has multiple drug-related
arrests heroin and meth and itwas reported on November 14,
2023, that federal charges ofpossession of a firearm by a

(58:28):
felon were being added againstAdam.
If you have any information?
Oh, I'm sorry I didn't give youinformation here.
So if you have any information,there is a.
I'm sorry I don't have all thephone numbers available, but
there is a great website calledSolve the Case.
They have the ability for youto submit a tip and also to uh

(58:52):
discuss with other people ifthere are questions or whatever.
It's actually a pretty coolwebsite, yeah, and I believe, if
I'm, if I remember correctly, Ibelieve it was started by
actual police investigators whounderstand how the public can
help.
So that's their tool.

Speaker 2 (59:13):
So Okay, yeah, Well, I hope that you know that she's
found.

Speaker 1 (59:24):
Okay, I'm going to warm up my tea and then we'll
talk about what CrimeCon andwhat we've been reading and
watching.

Speaker 2 (59:26):
We'll talk about all the silly things and and thank
you for your patience in my kindof meandering journey.
If you thought that me preparedwas meandering and unfocused,
so me unprepared, I hope youenjoy.

Speaker 1 (59:48):
I hope you enjoy as Rachel teased on Instagram, a
week or two ago I went toCrimeCon in Nashville.
It was part of my 40th birthdaytrip.
I went there from LA, and soeven before I got to CrimeCon, I
got to meet some CrimeConpeople, or at least I was on the

(01:00:11):
flight with some CrimeConpeople.
American Airlines was beingtheir usual dickish self, and so
I but it worked out for you.
It did work out for me because Iwas like I'm not going to risk
this.
If American Airlines does whatthey historically have done, I
won't get to Nashville.

(01:00:31):
So I scrapped that ticket.
I scrapped that ticket and Iwent and bought a Delta ticket.
It was one of the few that wasavailable right at that point in
time when I wanted to leave,and I'm glad I did, because Josh
Mankiewicz was on the flight.
Yardley Smith, who does LisaSimpson, was on the flight.
Uh, yardley smith, who doeslisa simpson, was on the flight

(01:00:52):
along with her husband andbrother-in-law.

Speaker 2 (01:00:55):
They do a true crime podcast called small town dicks
and oh lord, aren't you gladthat I wasn't there to embarrass
you?
Yes, I am.

Speaker 1 (01:01:14):
And then Matt Murphy was there.
So somehow I got the balls orthe ovaries, or whatever you
want to call them, to actuallygo up to Matt Murphy.

Speaker 2 (01:01:26):
I mean ovaries are ball shaped.
Sure, they're just internal.

Speaker 1 (01:01:29):
Yes, I mean ovaries are ball shaped, they're just
internal.
Yes, so I was probably.

(01:01:51):
It was probably because I wassleep deprived, but I managed to
get up to Matt Murphy andintroduce myself.
We all boarded the plane, gotto Nashville, whatever.
The next day, crimecon started,I got the most expensive ticket
thingy for CrimeCon, which isthe platinum, and with yeah, and
with that comes a private meetand greet with someone from
crime con.
They give you a list ahead oftime.
You pick up to 10 from thatlist and then they, the powers
that be, pick the person fromthat list of 10 for you to meet.
And I got Matt Murphy and itwas almost right away.

(01:02:14):
It was about an hour intoCrimeCon starting that I met him
and he remembered me, which wasnice.
I know a lot of people thatI've met multiple times who
don't remember me.
Somebody that doesn't have toremember me, you know,
remembered me, so it was awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:02:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:02:37):
And we talked a bit and I got a picture, but I
realized that I hadn't gottenanything signed by him.
So after the next day his hedid his session.
Right after a session was ameet and greet, a public meet
and greet.
I hadn't intended to go to thatone since I had a private meet
and greet, but I wanted to getsomething signed.

(01:02:58):
So I went to that as well andwe got another picture and he
signed my little lanyarddoohickey thing in a bookmark.

Speaker 2 (01:03:06):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:03:07):
And he remembered me, which was also cool, and ran
into him a few more times andremembered me.
I keep harping on the fact thathe remembered me, because it's
he remembered my face, which issomething, but Matt Murphy
wasn't the only one.

(01:03:33):
I paid extra to see John Douglas, the Mindhunter guy, do his
thing.
He talked for a few hours.
The lady before I think that'sthe coolest one.
Yeah, he was a lot of fun asfun as true crime can be.
But he would, he would meandera lot too.
He didn't actually get through.
Most I can be, but he would, hewould meander a lot too.
He didn't.
He didn't actually get throughmost.
I don't think he got through aquarter of his actual thing.

(01:03:56):
He was there to talk aboutconversation with this guy.
Yeah, but there was a ladybefore him.
His name I forget, and I forgether occupation as well, which
shame on me.
I will put that in the shownotes.
Keep wanting to say discoverynotes.
Uh, the show notes and um, youshould look her up because she

(01:04:16):
was a lot of fun too.
Then the next day, the same dayas the matt murphy session
discovery notes who you?
want sounds adventurous, rightum, so the same day, which was
saturday, as matt murphy that'sthe main day, that's when things
start from like nine and goforever.
Uh, john walsh america's mostwanted did his session.

(01:04:37):
He was also a lot of fun andalso really sad.
He talked about, uh, his lifefrom before his son to his son
son getting taken and killed,and then how he became the crime
fighter that he became right.

Speaker 2 (01:04:51):
He also did a meet and greet session, and so he was
kind enough to sign two books,one for me, one for rachel no um
he wished god bless me, whichis is so sweet, but I think it's
gonna take a lot more, a lotmore concentrated power to for
God to bless me.

Speaker 1 (01:05:15):
He's a lot shorter than I thought he was.

Speaker 2 (01:05:18):
He's only a few inches taller than me.
Yeah, that's true.
Yeah, I hardly even notice thatin the picture, though, because
he does seem like he's gotquite a presence.

Speaker 1 (01:05:26):
Yeah, his presence is very big and I was also
hunching over.
I think I saw the photos ofMatt Murphy.
I hunch, I know I've alwaysslouched.
I didn't realize how bad Ihunch until I saw the pictures.

Speaker 2 (01:05:40):
Yeah, I'm sure I do it too.
I don't even think about it.
Yeah, no.

Speaker 1 (01:05:46):
I don't think about it either.
I'll catch myself like this,like a little old lady hunched
over with like a humpback.

Speaker 2 (01:05:53):
And, like I try to straighten out, this is like
probably the first time allmonth I've thought about my
posture.

Speaker 1 (01:05:57):
Well, I know mine's bad.
I also have a curved spine.

Speaker 2 (01:06:02):
Right who among us?
It's because we spend all dayhunched over our laptops and our
phones and shit.

Speaker 1 (01:06:09):
True, yeah, although I've had bad posture since I was
little.

Speaker 2 (01:06:13):
I remember my grandma going sit up straight.
Yeah, well, sure yeah, my momtoo, I think all of our.
Yeah, my shoulders are actuallycurved inward, yeah, so we're
all going to be old and we'reall going to have like hunched
over backs, yep.

Speaker 1 (01:06:35):
So, besides that, there were a few other sessions
I went to.
I went to the Clue Awards,which is part of your the two
higher badges, the gold and theplatinum, hosted by Ashley
Banfield, which was cool,although I preferred Matt
Murphy's thing, because MattMurphy, I think, was a little
more personal, yeah, and clearlyit was kind of his first time

(01:07:00):
doing it, which I liked, whereasAshley Banfield is very
practiced, which is fine.
She was awesome, she was reallygreat.

Speaker 2 (01:07:08):
It was like more scripted-y.

Speaker 1 (01:07:09):
She was really great.
It was more scripted-y.
I don't know if it was scripted, but she's definitely See.
The thing I like about CrimeCona lot is that it's people who
are not used to being in frontof other people.
I mean, I know Matt Murphy is alawyer so he's used to that,

(01:07:31):
but being in front of a jury isvery different than being in
front of a room full of people,so it's less practice, it's less
.
He came off as being morenormal, whereas Ashley Banfield
clearly is used to being infront of a camera, clearly is
used to being in front of people, which is fine.
Like I said, she's awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:07:46):
I loved her.

Speaker 1 (01:07:58):
She liked the more like cash kind of atmosphere.
I liked more casual kind ofstuff, yeah, but it was.
She liked the more like cashkind of atmosphere and what else
that's about it there's, youknow, I got lots of books signed
.
Oh, I met Candice DeLong.

Speaker 2 (01:08:21):
I did meet.

Speaker 1 (01:08:21):
Yardley Smith and Paul Holes.
I listened to her podcast SmallTown Dicks no.

Speaker 2 (01:08:24):
Candice DeLong, or Candice DeLong.
Yeah, I referenced her podcastin my Tylenol.
Yeah, I've referenced her too.

Speaker 1 (01:08:30):
Yeah, she was part of the Tylenol.
It was in her early career.

Speaker 2 (01:08:33):
Cool.

Speaker 1 (01:08:33):
Yeah, so met.
A few people Went to thesession on the Michael Peterson
case, which is infamous for itsowl defense, so maybe I'll do
that crime one of these days.
Uh, aphrodite jones brought itin.
And who else?

(01:08:57):
Um, oh, the lady sarahedmondson, I think, is her name.
She is one of the ladies, or atleast the most vocal ladies.
I took down neXIVM, that cult,yeah, along with her husband.
Those were some interestingsessions as well.
Yeah yeah, there was a lot ofwalking to be had during

(01:09:19):
CrimeCon.

Speaker 2 (01:09:20):
Yeah Walking, yeah, get your steps in.
And other corny dad jokes.

Speaker 1 (01:09:27):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (01:09:28):
It is Father's Day tomorrow, so there you go.
Happy father's day to all thefathers, or whatever out there
yeah, so that was crime con.

Speaker 1 (01:09:40):
That's all I remember .
It's been two weeks, so I've mybrain, uh, isn't remembering
everything anymore, only thestuff I wrote down.
Yeah, I guess that's it.
It was an exciting time.
If you can afford to go toCrime Con, I highly recommend.

(01:10:01):
The next one, I think, is inDenver.
Well, there's a crime cruise inNovember, but the next like
crime cruise, crime cruise withlike the cool words and
everything.

Speaker 2 (01:10:16):
I'm excited that you're going on a cruise,
because I'm excited by the ideaof a crime cruise and, yeah,
like I don't know, crime cruise,crime on a cruise.

Speaker 1 (01:10:26):
Yeah, I'm excited for that too.
You're going to the Bahamas,yeah, but the next crime con not
crime Cruise CrimeCon will bein.

Speaker 2 (01:10:33):
Denver.
Make sure you bring lots ofsanitizing things, because
there's lots of germs and stuffon cruises.

Speaker 1 (01:10:39):
Yes.
So the next CrimeCon is inDenver, so if you can go to that
, tickets are on sale.
Now I don't know if they haveany of the gold or platinum ones
left.
I recommend those.
They're any of the gold orplatinum ones left.
I recommend those.
They're very expensive, likethe platinum, if you get it
early at the crime con is likeover 1200.
So it's expensive.
You don't have to pay it all atonce, um, but you do have to

(01:11:01):
put it about half down.
But I think it's worth it.
Not only do you get a privatemeet and greet, you get to sit
up front, you get, uh, for thepublic meet and greets what I
said, that's like half a puppy,yeah, um, uh the um.
At the private meet and greetsyou have your own line.

(01:11:24):
So you get to go first beforethe standard badges, which for
some isn't that important.
But for example, john wals,they cut it off at 150, and
obviously more people want tomeet him than 150 or whatever.
So if you have the platinumbadge not the gold, but the
platinum badge you get first.
So I was like the seventhperson to meet him.

(01:11:45):
So you're basically guaranteedto meet that person, whereas if
you have a standard badge.
You're not and you get upgradedlounge, so you actually get
like decent food and snacks anddrinks and things.

Speaker 2 (01:11:59):
How was the lounge?
Was it loungy?
Did they have those?
I know, don't destroy me, butlike the, you know those loungy
chairs.
You know what I'm talking about.
What the fuck are those thingscalledy chairs?
You know I'm talking about whatthe fuck are those things
called?
Like the lazy boys, no, notlazy the fainting couches yeah,
like a fainting couch are theones that the you know hedonists
are always like no, locked overon eating grapes no, uh, they

(01:12:24):
did I envision no, they did havecouches, but most of it was
chairs and tables.

Speaker 1 (01:12:32):
The benefit, though, is that there are lots of good
snacks and drinks.

Speaker 2 (01:12:41):
And if you get up early enough, at least this time
.

Speaker 1 (01:12:42):
I don't know if it was last time, because last time
I had gold.
But if you get it this time,you got breakfast and stuff.
No, no alcohol, you got to findyour own.
Although there was alcohol atthe Clue Awards.
I like the breakfast aspect.

Speaker 2 (01:12:53):
Yeah, I'm a fan of breakfast, yeah well it was.
It was like pastries althoughin normal life, like I, don't
eat breakfast that much, yeah,on a vacation life you gotta eat
breakfast yeah, that's true.

Speaker 1 (01:13:08):
Yeah, I don't.
I don't really really eat muchin the morning at home either.
I mean I got to eat somethingbecause otherwise I get a
migraine, but I don't eat likebreakfast, breakfast.
So yeah, that's it Highlyrecommend if you can go.
I will be at the Denver onenext year.
Maybe, if our podcast picks up,we can do it.

(01:13:28):
Yeah, as a, probably.
I don't think they'd let us doas a presenter, but we'd
probably maybe be able to getlike a little booth in the
exhibition.
It's on you listeners the wholefive of you.
No pressure, no, no pressure atall.
What else?
I think that's it.
So what have you been reading?

(01:13:50):
And yeah, I keep wanting to sayreading and writing, but that's
not what I mean Reading andlistening to and watching.

Speaker 2 (01:13:55):
I have not been writing stuff for this podcast,
which I honestly hardly wroteanything for.
I have been reading, I've beenwe've been watching Star Trek,

(01:14:16):
lower Decks.
We're on season four and nowthat I'm on season four, I'm so
sad to learn that they announcedthat they're going to end the
show at season five and I'm likewhy it's an animation like
they're gonna end the show atseason five and I'm like why
it's an animation like you canjust keep it going, but

(01:14:36):
apparently somebody is being adick and it's it's awesome like.

Speaker 1 (01:14:40):
You know what do you mean by somebody's being a dick.
Like they won't like theircontract, by they're gonna by
ending the show.

Speaker 2 (01:14:47):
oh yeah, so I don't, I don't see, you know, like
animations, like they keep ongoing for fucking forever they
can?

Speaker 1 (01:14:57):
yeah, like Riding the Simpsons are still going, isn't
it?

Speaker 2 (01:14:59):
Yeah, exactly, I'm like, why not a few more seasons
?
You know, yeah, I'm not readyfor it to end.
So, yeah, it's been delightful.
I'm sad that I'm almost at theend of the seasons, the episodes

(01:15:20):
that are out.
So when I'm done I'll probablyrevisit, finish, revisit but
finish Discovery.
But I'm like I most of the time, you know, at the end of the

(01:15:42):
day I just am not having thebrain cells.
For you know something serious,you know, and Lower Decks gives
me that Star Trek itch, butwithout being serious.
Yeah, and what was?
I I don't know why I clicked onmy fucking Facebook.

(01:16:03):
I'm supposed to be looking atmy Goodreads to tell you what I
read.
So I, what's the last thing?
Oh, I think last time we talkedabout strange sally diamond,
right?
So I read monstrilio by gerardosamano cordova, so that was

(01:16:31):
really good and kind of sad andpoignant about grief and
changing and shit like that, andso, yeah, yeah, it had.
You know, I had kind of somefun moments too and kind of
gross moments and you know, yeah, but yeah, mostly it was kind

(01:16:55):
of sad and poignant.
So I enjoy, I enjoyed that, butyeah, it's definitely got that.
If that's the kind of.
I read the young adult bookChlorine Chlorine, like chlorine

(01:17:15):
in pools by Jade Song, and thatwas, as I mentioned to you, my
favorite of the books that Iread recently.
It is about like a young,ambitious Chinese-American
swimmer who's like a topswimming athlete and she gets

(01:17:39):
top grades and just like thepressure, you know, of the
competing and like being thefucking best at everything.
The fucking best at everythingand and she and it's about
transformation, she believes andmaybe she is turning into a
mermaid.
So up to you.

(01:18:01):
And there's some definitelybody horror element to it.
So be aware of that.
And there's definitely sometriggering about parental
pressure, about, you know, likesexual assault and like creepy

(01:18:26):
borderline not you knowborderline stuff from like
creepy coach stuff.
So if that's a warning it issapphic.
So that's a bonus for me and,yeah, I really enjoyed that book
and it has just kind of one ofthose ambiguous endings.

(01:18:48):
Yeah, that was a fun one.

Speaker 1 (01:18:50):
I read the book ripe about like a don't go too in
depth about that one though.

Speaker 2 (01:18:57):
Oh yeah, because that's one I want to read,
because you want to read thatanyway, you know, it had its
moments where I was like, yeah,like you know, and it's
definitely got like aanti-capitalist kind of
narrative and I liked the partswhere they talked about black
holes and stuff like that, butit wasn't as good as I hoped it

(01:19:20):
was, so it didn't quite live upto my expectations and to me.
I found the ending kind ofpredictable.

Speaker 1 (01:19:29):
But, yeah, it was all right, I just wasn't blown away
.

Speaker 2 (01:19:32):
What you wanted yeah, and I'm currently reading Dyket
by Jenny Fran Davis and I'mabout halfway through and, yeah,
it's not my typical kind ofbook, because there's no sci-fi,
there's no fantasy, there's no,there's no sci-fi, there's no
fantasy, there's no horror,murder, right.

(01:19:54):
It's just like relationshipsand drama and, like you know,
queer um, you know, like thesequeer, three queer couples on
like a 10-day retreat, um, andthey're kind of rich and bougie,
yeah.
So I'm having a hard timerelating to that rich, bougie
aspect, right, but it's fun.

(01:20:18):
Like at first, I was reallyhaving a hard time relating to
the protagonist, yeah, but yeah,I found some common ground.
Well, that's good.
I think we're doing okay.
Oh, is that it?
Yeah, that's where I'm at rightnow.

Speaker 1 (01:20:39):
So I'm watching the same old, same old.
I did subscribe, at least fortwo weeks, to I think it's
History Hit or something towatch some little snippets of
history that are kind of fun.
One was on medieval ghosts,which was cool.

(01:20:59):
There's not really anythingelse I wanted to watch on there,
though, so I'm probably gonnaend my subscription.
What else did I do or watch?
I don't know.
Same old, same old.
I I don't even really know.
It's mostly on the backgroundfor me.
But I read not the book I wassupposed to be reading with
rachel, which is mary uh.
Instead I reread a book calledthe blue castle by lucy mott

(01:21:25):
montgomery.
She wrote the anne of greengables books it.
I read it probably 21, 22 yearsago, something along those
lines.
It's about a 29-year-oldspinster who basically does
everything she's told by herfamily, who are a bunch of
dickwads, and she gets a medicaldiagnosis and decides to live

(01:21:50):
her life.
So she goes off to live withthe town, hussy and the hussy's
drunk father, and because it'sLucy Maud Montgomery, there is a
romantic relationship element,but it's like you have to get
through like 70% of the bookbefore you even get there.
So it's not like the main thing, but it is there.

Speaker 2 (01:22:12):
Is there a relationship with the town hussy
?

Speaker 1 (01:22:14):
No, the town hussy dies.
I'm not giving anything away,you figure that out pretty early
.

Speaker 2 (01:22:19):
Hope shattered yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:22:23):
No, it wasn't Safik.
The other one I read was a bookcalled Rooms of their Own by
Alex Johnson.
The other one I read was a bookcalled Rooms of their Own by
Alex Johnson, which I would saynormally that it would be a
coffee table book.
But it's not big enough to be acoffee table book.
It's a small book but it'sabout various writers and their

(01:22:43):
writing rooms and their routinesand things like that, and it's
beautifully illustratedwatercolor.
So I finally finished that.
I started, started that thestart of the year and then I got
to marry and I'm about close to100 pages in.
I really, I really like it.
I'll see, I knew you well, Iknew I would like it.

(01:23:06):
I know I knew I would like ittoo.
The not reading it had nothingto do with me not thinking I
would like it.
Yeah, I mean, it was mysuggestion to read it.
It's very true and I bought itand I've been wanting to read it
.
I just didn't get to it and Itook it with me to on my trip,
right, it's so fucking big, yeah, that I didn't feel like

(01:23:37):
carrying it to the beach orcarrying it around crime cons.
So so I mean, it's been to la.
It's been to manhattan beach.
It's been to nashville.
It's well traveled.
It's well traveled, yeah, but Iwill finish it and I'm sure
I'll finish it soon.
Yay, although I have to editthe podcast, so it may not be as
soon as I would like but um,then we're gonna read other
stuff yeah, we've got a longlist of things to get done in
the next two weeks of june.

(01:23:58):
Pretty much our april and maytbr's got moved to june yep.
So, uh, we're readingpersuasion and emma, yep, and
the girl who can move shit withher mind Bad Cree.

Speaker 2 (01:24:13):
Bad Cree and Fahrenheit 451.

Speaker 1 (01:24:15):
Yeah, yep, and then at some point we're also going
to read Ballard's Crash,although I think that's July,
probably.
Yeah, yeah, so we're stillworking our way through Jane
Austen, although we've only readone of the five and we said we
were gonna do that, what likesix months ago.

Speaker 2 (01:24:38):
I mean, I've had persuasion on deck, but I've
been waiting for you I know Imean, it's not like we haven't
read it.
I read a bunch of the booksyeah, I've read the books before
too, I've read persuasion.

Speaker 1 (01:24:49):
No, I know.
No, I mean I've read them allbefore, but I mean I read a
bunch of the books yeah, I'veread the books before too.

Speaker 2 (01:24:52):
I've read persuasion, no, I know.
No, I mean I've read them allbefore, but I mean I read a
bunch of the books that were onour list I know, I know, I'm
sorry.

Speaker 1 (01:24:58):
I'm sorry, I've had a terrible reading slump it's
okay.

Speaker 2 (01:25:03):
But I was like I was like I'm gonna wait for katie to
read a book before I read somemore of these books yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:25:08):
No, it's all my fault .
It's all my fault.
We haven't continued the listof the 1987 movies either.

Speaker 2 (01:25:14):
No, no To be, honest, like I would fall asleep during
them anyway, so, as much as Idid want to watch them, like I
would fall asleep.

Speaker 1 (01:25:27):
I watched Plane Trains and Automobiles.

Speaker 2 (01:25:29):
Yeah, I did stay awake for that mostly I like
fell asleep for like a shorttime.
Yeah, I woke up before the end,so you gotta get better sleep,
dude sounds nice in theory, Iknow, but yeah all right.

Speaker 1 (01:25:48):
Well, is that it for both of us?
Okay, we were gonna talk aboutour, our uh, how we're doing on
our new year's resolution, but Ithink we have both decided that
we've done absolutely zero newyear's what?

Speaker 2 (01:26:01):
new year's resolutions I don't know what
that is we have done zero.

Speaker 1 (01:26:08):
I think the only thing I've continued to do is my
are my nails.
Yeah, that's it.

Speaker 2 (01:26:14):
Yeah, I haven't done nothing else.
Was that even a resolution ofmine to do my nails?

Speaker 1 (01:26:19):
I don't think so, my nails.

Speaker 2 (01:26:20):
So no, although we had very simple resolutions.

Speaker 1 (01:26:25):
We have not done it although the one you were doing
really well on was the walkingit.
It's not your fault that it's110 degrees outside.

Speaker 2 (01:26:32):
I was doing pretty good on the walking yeah, until
it reached deadly temperaturesoutside.
Yeah, so yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:26:41):
Oh, that's one thing I was so annoyed about going to
LA.
Maybe you should have gotten atreadmill Because I assumed LA
would have nice weather.
But that whole week I was thereit was in the 60s.

Speaker 2 (01:26:50):
Yeah, and cloudy 60s sounds good to me, so I didn't
get to wear any of my bathingsuits that I bought.
Yeah, which was a bummer, I didgo to the beach.

Speaker 1 (01:26:59):
I mean, I walked along the beach, I got my feet
wet but the water was cold.
I was not about to go and swimin it.
But I would take that 65 degreeweather with a cloudy sky over
this 100 plus degree weatherwith no clouds in sight any day
of the week.
Yeah, and another reason I wantto move to LA now, which hadn't

(01:27:24):
really been on my radar, is thefact that, despite the fact that
I wanted my doctor to be wrong,that, despite the fact that I
wanted my doctor to be wrong andshe was right in the sense that
my sinuses, my ability tobreathe, increased, yeah, while
I was away from new mexico andnew mexico historically was the

(01:27:46):
place everybody came to becausethey had breathing problems but
then they brought all of theirplants and shit that were giving
them breathing problems and putthem here.
So now we have breathingproblems, but yeah, I mean I
I've I don't think I've breathedthat well like I was in in la
in over a decade.

Speaker 2 (01:28:07):
Yeah, hopefully now that my backyard is clear, then
my allergies will clear up alittle bit.

Speaker 1 (01:28:15):
Like, subscribe, download, follow Not just the
podcast, but we'll also put ourpersonal details in the show
notes.
Email us.
Absolute crickets out there.
So yeah, give, give ussomething.
Is anybody listening?
Yeah, we, we gotta have somefans out there somebody so

(01:28:42):
somebody likes the weird shitwe're doing yeah, I mean, if we
get more listeners, then we canget monetized and we can bring,
like some people on crime books.

Speaker 2 (01:28:53):
Yeah, nerd, oh, that reminds me.
Yeah, yeah that reminds me.

Speaker 1 (01:28:57):
Uh, we have a book coming up in two episodes yes,
episode 20, and it is um a bookwhich that involves?

Speaker 2 (01:29:10):
witches.
Hang on, I've got it in myaudible library.
Let me scroll down.
Okay, and um the witch of newyork by alex hortus okay, so the
witch of new york by alexhortus.

Speaker 1 (01:29:29):
What's?

Speaker 2 (01:29:29):
up, I got the answer of the book for once.

Speaker 1 (01:29:33):
You did.
Yes, I was unprepared.
All right Again, like subscribedownload.

Speaker 2 (01:29:42):
I got too many books on the Audible sale.
What is too many books?
That's such a concept.
It does not exist.
No, there were some books forlike two bucks or whatever, I
know it was like two bucks click, click, click.

Speaker 1 (01:29:58):
All right, so do all of the things for us.
We'd appreciate it.
Yes, please Reach out to us ifyou want, and we will see you
next time.
All right, bye, happy Pride,happy Pride.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Be Gay, Do Crime - A Gay Celebration for Pride Month