Down the Rabbit Hole: The Baffling Case of Rey Rivera

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In this episode, Rachel brings us the first part of the very baffling case of Rey Rivera, while Kiki brings us the disappearance of Giovanna Tyler.

Our next book is "Long Haul: Hunting the Highway Serial Killers" by Frank Figliuzzi, which we will discuss in episode 28.

Sources: 

Rey Rivera - 

Unsolved Mysteries - "Mystery on the Roodtop" Season 1 Episode 1

Crime Junkie - "Mysterious Death of Rey Rivera"

Mysterious Brews Podcast - "Rey Rivera"

Strange and Unexplained with Daisy Eagan - "Impossible Death of Rey Rivera"

Jennifer Bails - "Preacher Dies in Crash"

Caleb Kaltenbach -  "The Suspicious Case of Rey Rivera...and Why He Matters"

Giovanna Tyler -

FBI.gov "Giovanna Tyler"

Socials:

Instagram: Details Are Sketchy - @details.are.sketchy
Facebook: Details Are Sketchy - @details.are.sketchy.2023
Instagram: Kiki - @kikileona84
Instagram: Rachel - @eeniemanimeenienailz
Email: [e-mail] 

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Kiki and I'm Rachel, and this is Details are
Sketchy, a true crime podcast.
And you just tasted the pumpkinspice Twinkie.
How'd it go?
Amazing, it's delicious, isn'tit?
It's very delicious, yeah,surprisingly so.
Yeah, I wasn't sure if it, ifit would be good or not, but it
is like a little preservativesugar bomb in my mouth.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
Yes, it is, it is, and I love every second of it.

Speaker 1 (00:27):
You know it's this week when I bought these
Twinkies after my mom told meabout them.
That's like the first TwinkieI've had since Egypt.
They used to be everywhere inEgypt.
Do you remember that?

Speaker 2 (00:37):
Yes, when we went they were, I remember, and it
was amazing because that waswhen likeies were like
discontinued for a while.

Speaker 1 (00:44):
Yeah, remember.
Yeah, they weren't here for,yeah, they were discontinued in
the US.

Speaker 2 (00:48):
yeah, and for years I didn't give a fuck about
Twinkies Right Until theydiscontinued them and I was like
hold up, you can't take myTwinkies.
No.

Speaker 1 (01:00):
And then we just consumed them like crazy that
and koshery when we were inEgypt, yeah, and then we just
consumed them like crazy thatand koshery when we were in
Egypt.

Speaker 2 (01:05):
Yeah, and the fried apple pies at the McDonald's, oh
my God.

Speaker 1 (01:10):
I know I am so sad they're gone.
I know Now they're baked.
The other one's baked, yeah, Iknow, in Japan I loved them so
much and they discontinued inthe US.
When we lived in Japan theyhadn't done that yet, and so
they still had the fried applepie, and so every weekend or
every other weekend, I wouldmake my grandparents take me to

(01:33):
the mall that had the McDonald'sso I could get the apple pie.
So I was like I got to stock upon this while I'm here.

Speaker 2 (01:39):
McDonald's.
If you're listening, bring backthe fried apple pie.
Everybody knows that apple pieis not good for you.

Speaker 1 (01:46):
Just fucking fry it already, yeah none of your food
is good for us, so just stoppretending.

Speaker 2 (01:53):
The supersize me era is over.
Yes, tragically, I heard thatthe supersize me guy passed away
.

Speaker 1 (02:01):
Oh really, I actually never read that, because I
didn't want to not eat out again, I wanted to keep living in
bliss, oh yeah, just likerecently, I think this year.

Speaker 2 (02:14):
Oh wow, so Well, that's lame.
It wasn't because of McDonald's, though.
No, of course not.
I mean, I'm sure, if you eatmeatballs every day of your life
, yes, probably don't do that.
Yeah, who can afford to anymore?
Mcdonald's is fucking expensive.

Speaker 1 (02:32):
I know it's no, it's no more the cheap place.
Yeah, in egypt that was likethe, the like it was a, a
special place for most egyptiansbecause they can't afford.

Speaker 2 (02:42):
remember people were like going on dates there and
shit yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:45):
And now that's for us yeah.
Because we can't afford itanymore.

Speaker 2 (02:50):
I remember like kind of mocking it, I was like date
at McDonald's, yep.
But now, yeah, I can see it,yep.

Speaker 1 (02:59):
Yep, okay.
So now that we've done that,what are we doing?
Oh, I'm going to do my missingperson, rachel, is the case.
It's going to be either a twoor three parter, depending on
how far we get today.

Speaker 2 (03:17):
We don't want to get too far today because it is our
24th episode, which means wealso have our book.
Do our listeners listen to mysuper long multi-part?
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (03:29):
They apparently really love children who commit
murder.
That is like our mostdownloaded.

Speaker 2 (03:32):
This is episode definitely.
Well, I mean, I guess it couldbe, it could be anything.
So if you, if anybody has a atheory that ray rivera was
murdered by children, then thereyou go.

Speaker 1 (03:47):
Maybe we should have that as clickbait.
Right, no that would be verydisrespectful.
It would be very disrespectful.
So, uh, our book is a littlecrazy.
Where'd it go?
Where'd my book go?
I literally just had it in myhand.

Speaker 2 (04:07):
There are some pretty outlandish theories.

Speaker 1 (04:10):
It's Little Crazy Children.
Oh yeah, sorry.

Speaker 2 (04:12):
I'm like eating, that's okay.
The twinking.

Speaker 1 (04:16):
It's Little Crazy Children by James Renner.

Speaker 2 (04:19):
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1 (04:21):
So we'll be talking about that.
We have theories.

Speaker 2 (04:24):
Although they weren't that little theories, although
they weren't that little andthey weren't that crazy, they
were just assholes, yeah but Ithought, yeah, although that
comes from the crucible yeah, Iknow, yeah, but I'm just saying
yeah, no, I remember yeah, theywere just they said it came from
the crucible.

Speaker 1 (04:42):
Yeah, no, they're not little, they're just yeah,
assholes, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Rich assholes.
We sound really bitter becausewe're always dumping on the rich
.
We're not bitter.
Oh, we here in our little cityhere in New Mexico, got our
first Tesla.

(05:03):
What is that?
Ugly fuck Cyber truck, tesla,cyber truck.
At the restaurant we were justat oh god, it was hideous,
although apparently myseven-year-old thinks it's
beautiful it looks likesomething someone would have

(05:24):
created if they were asked todraw something about what they
think the future was like, likeback in the 90s, sure, but if
it's like, I don't know, like akid, yeah yeah, no, that's what
I mean.
Like yeah, like a, what a?

Speaker 2 (05:41):
like yeah, what a young person would think the
future vehicles would look like,based on like the 80s or 90s
yep, yeah, and specifically likelike a little boy, like, yeah,
it's gonna be like this, yeah,you know, or little boy energy
yeah, yeah, it's not attractiveno, it's not, but it is

(06:02):
definitely a showstopper, likeeverybody that walked by it like
stopped yeah and took a look.
That is true.
Yeah, and laughed a little.
It's true, I took a picture soI could send it to my spouse in
mockery.
Yeah, yeah, so I mean it getsattention?
It certainly does.

(06:23):
I mean, if all press is goodpress, then that's the kind of
vibe yeah, the cyber truck isgoing for.

Speaker 1 (06:31):
Yeah, it's so crazy how tesla has gone in this town,
because, well, I guess it's not.
We've we've gotten a lot ofrich folk from california coming
in, so they're bringing theirteslas and shit over yep yeah,
that's what.

Speaker 2 (06:46):
That's what jay said.

Speaker 1 (06:47):
They were like those californians yeah, although I'm
a californian, okay, but like Ihave nothing against california,
it's just it's expensive incalifornia, so they're coming
here to new mexico making newmexico expensive for people.

Speaker 2 (07:01):
It's quite a bit of.
It seems like it's a lot ofconservative Californians.

Speaker 1 (07:05):
Yeah, they are turning our state for sure.

Speaker 2 (07:08):
They're like on, like our, you know, like group, like
the Facebook group and stufflike that.
Yes, I know, facebook is forold people.
I'm old people, okay, but um,what was my point?
That they're conservative.
They're like on there likebitching about Gary Newsom, like

(07:30):
nobody gives a fuck.
Gary Newsom is not yourgovernor anymore.
Like fuck off, right, yeah,yeah, Anyway.
And they're complaining abouthow like they can't get any good
Chinese food.
We didn't have all this Chineseimmigration and like railroad

(07:52):
and the gold rush and all thisshit.
Like we don't have the samehistory as you and we don't have
the same you know, yeah, youcame to a poor state.

Speaker 1 (08:02):
What the fuck did you expect?
Demographics, that's the word.

Speaker 2 (08:05):
I'm like I'm gesturing on a podcast.

Speaker 1 (08:08):
I'm like get what I'm saying, yeah, no, we don't have
the same demographics, we don'thave the same history, exactly,
and we are a poor state.

Speaker 2 (08:16):
So yeah, it's going to be harder to find really good
authentic Chinese food here,Anything other than mexican food
?

Speaker 1 (08:23):
yeah and it's no.
It's not the same mexican foodas in california you can find
really great mexican food.

Speaker 2 (08:29):
You can find really good native american food here,
like embrace new mexico yeah,just embrace our poverty right
like and our lack.
I mean we are, you knowwhatever like a poor state, but
like we have a pretty fuckingcool culture and we should do,

(08:51):
we definitely.
And like yeah, I'm like hey,yeah, stop shitting all over it.

Speaker 1 (08:57):
Yeah well, we've got a growing, um uh, a beer.
What do you call them?
A brewery culture thinghappening.
We've got lots of our specialtybeers and stuff here our pecan
pinon sopa pias oh my god, yes,I just.

Speaker 2 (09:19):
We just went out to eat.
I had stuff sopa, pias, and, ohmy god, yeah, there was stuff
with shredded beef and it waslike a fried little meatball of
heaven.

Speaker 1 (09:30):
It's a wonderful thing because you can go savory,
you can go sweet.

Speaker 2 (09:34):
Yeah, and sopapillas were invented here in New Mexico
.

Speaker 1 (09:38):
Yeah, you can't get them anywhere else.
No, okay.
Anyway, now that we're done,sort of talking up our state,
you can tell I'm kind of donewith new mexico, but still I
mean like yeah, I mean there'sdefinitely things that I'm

(09:59):
certainly over sometimes.
I'm over this city for sure yeahbut like there's other things I
really love about it oh yeahlike I don't know yeah, if I
could take the things I love andthen move near a beach, I would
be a very happy person like themexican food and the uh
caliches yeah, that's why, youknow, I have told jay, I'm like,

(10:22):
yeah, yeah, I will moveanywhere, not anywhere.

Speaker 2 (10:25):
Like, obviously, like with our family being what it
is, we're not moving to like ared state, right.

Speaker 1 (10:32):
But like I'm like, yeah, I will miss New Mexico,
yeah, there's a reason that wejokingly call it the land of
entrapment instead ofenchantment.
It's true, a lot of us try andleave and we wind up coming back
.
I have tried to leave manytimes.

(10:52):
Yep, I've tried to leave.

Speaker 2 (10:55):
Yep, you won't beat the sunsets, though there are no
sunsets that are anywhere closeto what New Mexico has, or if
you want to be a cult leader orjoin a cult, or you believe in
aliens good state to be in if Icould convince myself to you

(11:15):
know, scam a bunch of peoplelike that, then, yeah, I'll be
in there yeah, okay, so uh shallwe um yeah oh, there's one more
thing, okay.
Yeah, I wanted to mention aboutthis meme that I've seen you
know that song like the partyanthem or party rock anthem by

(11:40):
lmfao.
That's like you know, every dayI'm shuffling.
You know that one right.

Speaker 1 (11:46):
Oh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (11:48):
I always thought that it started like party rockers
in the house tonight, butapparently it's party rock is
and I never knew that andthere's like a big meme war
about it because apparently alot of people thought it was
party rockers and I want to knowif you thought it was party
rockers and I want to know ifyou thought it was party rockers
or party rock is, I don't knowI I only know the every damn

(12:11):
shuffling yeah part, because Iasked jay and they said that
they always knew it was partyrock is.
But I always heard party rockersand it starts it off.

Speaker 1 (12:22):
Let me YouTube it.

Speaker 2 (12:24):
Well, it starts off with some like little, like
whatever, Like yeah or whatever.
But like what is it Then?
Like what's it called?
It's called Party Rock.
Anthem by LMFAO.

Speaker 1 (12:41):
It sounds like Party Rockers.
Yeah, it does Real millennialshit.
Yeah, it first sounded likeParty Rockers, but then this
second, this line here itsounded like Party.

Speaker 2 (13:02):
Rockers in the house.

Speaker 1 (13:06):
Okay, so my verdict the first time I heard party
rockers and then they said itparty rock is in the house.
But then I rewound it and itsounded like party rock is in
the house.
So, okay, I don't know, but you, maybe I wouldn't have even
thought that if I hadn't yeahyeah, but no, the first time I
heard party rockers for sure myfavorite meme was one in the

(13:28):
star trek shit posting groupwhere there was like a cartoon
animation that had kirk andobi-wan kenobi, and kirk said
party rockers and obi-wan kenobisaid party rock is.

Speaker 2 (13:42):
And then they glared at each other and then they made
out.

Speaker 1 (13:47):
That's funny.
I dug their clothes, though IfI were somebody who didn't mind
being outrageous, I would havedressed like that.

Speaker 2 (14:00):
I mean, I feel like even without wearing flamboyant
clothes, I'm pretty outrageousFlamboyant that's the word I was
thinking of.
So I should go for flamboyantclothes.
Go for it.
I have a lot of sensory issuesaround clothes too.

Speaker 1 (14:14):
Yeah, so that makes it hard.

Speaker 2 (14:15):
Yeah, like I, like you, know fine clothes, I like
dark gothy clothes and I, likeyou know, know bright clothes
too.
But yeah, a lot of times I puton those clothes and I'm like
nope okay, I'm gonna start withthe.

Speaker 1 (14:33):
Okay, the missing person just like a million
minutes in yeah, okay, uh, sothe missing person I found was
Giovanna Tyler, missing sinceMarch 28th 2004 from Tacoma,
washington.
She goes by Jonna, I believe ishow you pronounce it

(14:53):
J-A-H-N-N-A.
She was born February 27th 1975.
She has brown eyes, brown hair.
She has brown eyes, brown hair.
She's roughly 5'9" and sheweighs about 170 pounds.
She has a multicolored dragontattoo on her left shoulder I

(15:15):
keep wanting to say soldier Herleft shoulder.
The FBI is offering a reward ofup to $10,000 for information
leading to the recovery ofGiovanna Taylor and the
conviction of those responsiblefor her disappearance.
Tyler is an American Indian andAlaska native.

(15:37):
She is a Makah tribal member.
She has ties to Tacoma andNebeh, washington N-E-A-H.
I don't know how you say that.
I would say Nebe, but I couldbe wrong.
I'm sure if my aunt listens tothis she will correct me.
I will have a few more detailsafter you do your thing, okay.

Speaker 2 (16:02):
Awesome, all right, I have another thing that.
I thought I'd just say oh yeah,I know what it is.
That last episode I did myintro part for my missing person
and then we forgot to do thesecond part, where I talked in
detail more about them.
Yeah, talked in detail moreabout them, yeah.

(16:24):
So I didn't realize that untilyou were like send me your
sources.
And then I was like, oh shit, Ididn't do the second part.

Speaker 1 (16:33):
Yeah, so whoops, we've done that a few times.
It's sometimes how we getcaught up in whatever else yeah
we do or, you know, people arewanting our attention, so we
apologize for that Very poorlyorganized.

Speaker 2 (16:44):
Yeah know people are wanting our attention, so we
apologize for that Poorlyorganized.

Speaker 1 (16:46):
Yeah, sometimes we are poorly organized.

Speaker 2 (16:48):
I know I'm poorly organized.
Mindfuck of a confusing,mysterious death in 2006 was
made famous by being featured in2020 in the premiere episode of

(17:14):
Netflix's reboot of UnsolvedMysteries, an episode titled
Mystery on the Rooftop.

Speaker 1 (17:22):
I'm sorry, can you hand me the cough drops?

Speaker 2 (17:26):
Yes, I was like what did I touch?

Speaker 1 (17:29):
You didn't touch anything I just might.
I'm about to have a coughingfit.

Speaker 2 (17:35):
Yeah, you and me both Something is in the air.

Speaker 1 (17:39):
I hope it does not stick around, because I do not
want to be with all of this shit, these stinky things, while I'm
on a cruise.
It's back to school season.
I know, I don't think it'sillness.
I think my chronic cough isjust back.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:59):
So this was supposed to be like a shorter episode,
but I struggle so much with thatand I just have decided to go
just completely the opposite andinstead just do like a
multi-part episode two orpossibly three, because in this
one I think I'm just going tomostly get into the background

(18:23):
of like ray rivera and somehousekeeping type stuff, which I
know doesn't sound too exciting, but trust me, it's gonna be
very relevant and I think it'sinteresting.
And then probably in the nextone we'll talk about like the
actual like case and then maybein the potential third one then

(18:46):
we can talk about all of thetheories.
There's so many theories and Iknow like I listen to a lot of
podcasts and read a lot ofthings on reddit and on articles
and all these things and you'regoing to read a couple of books
and I'm going to read a coupleof books.

(19:07):
Yeah, I have one book in mypossession but I haven't really
gotten much of a chance to readit because kids and appointments
and things, and I am gettingthe other book that I know of.
I don't know if there's anymore books on Marie Rivera.
These are the two that I couldreally find.
Yeah, so I'm going to readthose and, yeah, hopefully bring

(19:30):
you all of the information,because you know the the more
that you look at it, there'slike angles and there's I put
you know, somewhere in here it'slike rabbit holes on rabbit
holes.

Speaker 1 (19:43):
Yeah, because there's so many kinds of your favorite
rabbit holes.

Speaker 2 (19:45):
yeah, because there's your favorite kind yeah, it is
my favorite kind you're so right, I, I, I like something that
you know.
I'm not that I like.
You know, of course, thatsomeone is passed away, yeah,
but what intrigues me?
I guess I should say is whensomething is mysterious and

(20:07):
there's, yeah, there's whenthere's things to be unraveled,
the unsolved mysteries episodeis because I think she was
really hoping that somebodywould either have seen something

(20:31):
, you know, come forward withsome information, maybe fresh
eyes can look at this.
And so we're gonna look at itand you know.
You know, while of course,remaining respectful, you know,
to ray and the family, you know,but it is a mystery and like
how I I'm and now I'm going offnote, even though I like wrote

(20:54):
similar stuff to this okay, yeah, I'm pretty much right saying
similar stuff to what I hadwrote.
so I can't imagine I wrote.
I can't imagine what a livingnightmare it must have been, and
still be, for his family, youknow, to have what happened
happen in such, not only abrutal way, but so mysterious

(21:19):
and frustrating circumstancesthat are unresolved and the fact
that it doesn't feel resolved.
It's hard to find comfort andclosure in that.
And so, as someone who's nowfive-year-old Ray Sr, at the
time of his untimely death 32years is not enough time and

(21:42):
although, from what I've heardand read about Ray, you know he
seemed to live his life to thefullest.
He was a young and vital manand it seemed like he was just
on the cusp of grasping all ofyou know the goals that he
wanted in his life when it wasbrutally snatched brutally
snatch away, whether by his ownhand or by another I want to

(22:05):
save most of the proposedhypothetical scenarios for the
next episode.
It probably is going to be thethird episode if we do a
three-parter, but we'll see howfar we get, and then I, but

(22:27):
we'll probably get.
As far as I wrote is how we'llget far we'll get.
If you're not familiar withthis case and haven't seen the
unsolved mysteries episode.
I know that katie hasn't seenit, which kind of excited me
because I was like you get tolearn about this for the first
time.

Speaker 1 (22:38):
yeah, and I mean I'd heard about the case you.

Speaker 2 (22:42):
You've heard about it .

Speaker 1 (22:42):
Yeah, I just didn't watch Unsolved.

Speaker 2 (22:43):
Mysteries.
It's so mysterious, and so theepisode on Netflix certainly has
some shortcomings, but I wouldrecommend for anyone to go watch
it If you want to be on theedge of your seat, if you like

(23:04):
rabbit holes and mysteries, andif you are like this is
something that I can work on andthink about and maybe think of
something fresh, and especiallyif you lived in Baltimore in
2006, then you should definitelywatch it.
I mean, everybody who lives inBaltimore in 2006 probably knows

(23:28):
exactly who Ray Rivera is, soyou're probably like I already
know.
But definitely, if you're like,oh my gosh, maybe I saw
something or you know, if youhaven't come forward, then
definitely you should do so,because one of our five

(23:49):
listeners.
Yes, one of our five listenershas the key.
Yes, they might.
You never know.

Speaker 1 (23:59):
Weirder things have happened.

Speaker 2 (24:00):
It's possible and I'm sure that that my words are
going to compel them.
But I mean that would be prettycool, but I doubt it.
But yeah, it would be cool.
So I was amazed that it's been18 years now since ray's death.

(24:21):
But we can still hope to findsome answers.
We did for the Golden StateKiller after like 30 plus years.
So there's no deadline for hope.
Here we go with some of thehousekeeping.
Ray Omar Rivera was born June10th 1973 on an Air Force base

(24:47):
in Madrid, that is, madrid,spain, because his father, angel
Rivera Sr, was stationed thereat the time.
But later the family would moveto Winter Park, florida, right
on the outskirts of Orlando.
I wonder if he got to go tolike Disney World a lot when his
father retired from themilitary.

(25:09):
A middle child with an olderbrother, angel Jr, and a younger
sister, elena, ray's parents,angel and Maria, were both born
in Puerto Rico and Ray's PuertoRican heritage and culture was a
big part of his identity andhis family.
Family ties were very importantto Ray and he remained very

(25:32):
close to his family.
As an adult, ray was raisedCatholic, but his beliefs skewed
more toward the spiritual as hebecame an adult, although he
continued to find community andcomfort in the church throughout
his life.
Ray was said to have an eideticmemory for things he was
passionate about and he was anaturally talented musician who

(25:54):
could memorize the songs hissister played on the piano by
ear.
He taught himself to play thequattro, which is a stringed
instrument similar to a guitarwith like ten strings.
Apparently it looks kind oflike a violin, but it plays like

(26:14):
a guitar and it's got tenstrings and it's very popular in
Puerto Rico, but it'soriginated in Spain.
Hmm, he was also very athleticand played a variety of sports
in high school, includingbaseball and swimming, before
fixing on water polo after beinginvited to the Olympic camp at

(26:37):
UC Berkeley in California in hisjunior year of high school.
He was a talented player and hereceived a scholarship I didn't
see what kind of scholarship,but I'm assuming an athletic
scholarship to the University ofthe Pacific in Stockton,
california, where he majored inEnglish.

(26:58):
Ray particularly lovesscreenwriting and hoped to be
able to make it in the filmindustry as a screenwriter.
He was one of those film buffguys who was always quoting
films, analyzing them.
This made me laugh because Ialways thought those guys were

(27:19):
kind of annoying and of coursehe would be working on his own
projects constantly.
Ray seemed to be a guy whoeveryone liked.
He was known to be charismatic,thoughtful, sensitive.
He was known to have a greatsense of humor.
He was always smiling andtrying to make other people

(27:39):
laugh.
He was also tall and handsomeand a star water polo player so
pretty much the whole package.
In 1994, ray was selected forthe Summer Olympic Festival in
St Louis Missouri.
This festival is supposed tosimulate the Olympics and give
athletes a chance to sample theOlympic environment, as well as

(28:04):
basically be like a scoutingtool for the Olympic committee
to scout Olympic talent.
When Ray graduated from collegein 1996, he was recruited by
the Royal Spanish SwimmingFederation.
So that meant he got to go toSpain to play water polo and he

(28:25):
taught English lessons on theside for extra spending money.
While there he got a superexciting call He'd been selected
for the Olympic men's waterpolo team.
Like holy shit, how fuckingcool is that?
Immediately he left Spain andreturned to the States to start
training for the Olympic Gameswhich took place in Atlanta that

(28:49):
year.
But unfortunately he wasunexpectedly cut from the team,
like a few weeks before thegames.
The reason is unclear, but itwas rumored that maybe he had a
disagreement with a coach thatled to that decision.
That was something that wouldend up being one of the biggest
regrets of his life veryunderstandably so.

(29:10):
However, ray seemed like a guywho didn't just roll over With
his athletic career in thetoilet.
He just redirected and decidedto focus his energy and effort
on his other passion ofscreenwriting.
Energy and effort on his otherpassion of screenwriting.
He started working in theHollywood circuit, trying to get
his name and scripts out there,trying for a break while

(29:31):
working multiple jobs.
I said that's Hollywood, baby,I'm a dork, that's okay.
He settled on teaching highschool Spanish in Burbank, while
coaching the school's swimmingand water polo teams.
His students remember himfondly and basically said that

(29:52):
he was a great coach and a gooddude.
He also had a third job oh myGod, I can't even and also youth
, working at the admissionsoffice in the Los Angeles film
school.
While he was there, hecompleted his first screenplay,
a horror story about a PuertoRican piano player oh my God, a

(30:16):
Puerto Rican piano player titledVirtuoso, which sounds amazing,
to be honest.
Yeah, and yeah, from what Icould read, it had some interest
, but I don't know if it wasever picked up by a studio.
I hope it is floating aroundsomewhere because it sounds

(30:38):
really cool and I would love tosee it.
So in 2000, ray met his futurewife, allison, through a mutual
friend of theirs.
Ray and Allison had a lot incommon.
She was an accountant who hadgraduated from UCLA and an
athlete she had volleyball andcross country backgrounds who

(31:00):
loved writing.
So they hit it off right away.
But they had a hard time makingthings work financially when
they got serious, as even 24years ago LA was extremely
expensive.
However, ray didn't let thatstop him from proposing to
Allison in 2004.
I don't know why I wrote itthat way, because it makes it

(31:23):
sound so sudden when actuallythey were together for like four
years before he proposed.
So they weren't exactly rushinginto things, but even so they
didn't really have the financesfor a wedding or they felt to
start a family, which is whyweddings are a capitalist scam.

(31:52):
No worries, because Ray's goodhigh school buddy, porter
Stansberry, to the rescue.
That makes more sense.
Dun dun dun.
Porter and Ray went to highschool together and played water
polo together.
They went to prom together.
They were pretty much known asbesties.
So in 2004, porter reached outto Ray and offered him a job as

(32:17):
a writer for his financialadvisor services company called
Pirate Investors LLC, to write anewsletter for his company.
Porter was basically handingRay this easy choice job, high
paying, and it would make allthe things that he and Allison
were trying to accomplish have awedding, buy a home for Ray to

(32:40):
start a production companypossible.
So how could anybody turn thatdown?
The only major caveat was thatRay would have to move to
Baltimore, which he wasn't keenon and Allison really wasn't.
But it was an offer that Raywould have to move to Baltimore,
which he wasn't keen on andAllison really wasn't.
But it was an offer that Rayultimately could not refuse.
So he did take the job andAllison stayed in LA for her job

(33:01):
because initially, I guess,porter promised that this would
be a really short-term situation.
So Ray moved to Baltimore andone of my sources said he was
staying at a hotel called thePeabody.
However, another sourceindicated that he was staying
with another associate ofPorter's in order, the oh my god

(33:23):
an older gentleman named TomHickling, at an unknown location
that was possibly insinuated tohave been the Belvedere, which
seems a bit sensationalist, butone source was from a podcast
and the other one was asecondhand reference to Makita

(33:45):
Brotman's book.
However, her book is called AnUnexplained Death.
However, since I haven't readher book myself, I can't verify
whether or not that informationis actually in there.
So tune in next week or notnext week, like two weeks.

(34:06):
Tune in in two weeks to find out.
What we do know is that TomHickling is a very interesting
individual because he was alsoinvolved in the same parent
company that Porter's companywas a subsidiary of, which is

(34:26):
called, like Agora, and he diedabout six months before Ray did,
in somewhat peculiarcircumstances, this was a
gentleman who didn't really havemuch in common with Ray on the
surface, except for the tie toAgora.

(34:46):
He was an older gentleman, nota senior, but he was upper
middle age, 51.
He was white.
He was, I said, white, and hewas somewhat of an evangelical
Christian TV personality who wasknown for bringing Christian

(35:08):
rock to Christian TV programmingKnown for bringing Christian
rock to Christian TV programming.
And this is a guy that Ray wasalleged to have stayed with at
the start of his time inBaltimore and they were known to
get along pretty well.

(35:29):
And this gentleman died inZambia while visiting his
daughter who was a relief workerthere.
The two of them got in a caraccident where, I guess, this
car came in from the side andhit them and Tom didn't make it.
But here's the odd thing Tom'sdaughter was taken to the
hospital for a broken leg butTom was initially assessed to be
okay and not that seriouslyinjured, and was not taken to

(35:53):
the hospital.
His daughter recalled, afterthe accident, having a
conversation with Tom where heassured her that he was feeling
fine and it was okay for her toleave him and go to the hospital
.
Later he was found dead in thesame car with a severe blow to
the back of his head.
Even more mysteriously, hisremains were cremated right

(36:18):
there in Zambia.
So he was not autopsied in theUS and at first I thought, well,
that's just a cost-savingventure, but these were pretty
rich people.
So, they could have afforded tohave shipped his body back to
the US if they had wanted.
So another thing is thatapparently the news of Tom's

(36:43):
demise set Ray on edge,according to Allison, and later
Tom's name would be found in aninfamous note that is left by
Ray.
So more on that later.
I'm getting ahead of myself abit Now.
Ray didn't really know anythingabout money or financial
investing.

(37:03):
He was known to be quite badwith money.
Actually, he preferred to onlycarry cash to prevent himself
from overspending.
And shortly after he took thejob with Porter he got his very
first credit card, but he didn'tneed to know about money to
write up whatever Porter wantedhim to write up, and apparently

(37:25):
Porter preferred it that way.
Porter didn't like to hirepeople who had strong financial
backgrounds.
He wanted people with quotecharacter and resourcefulness,
end quote.
Basically, it seemed like hewas allegedly deliberately
hiring people who are green andnaive when it came to financial
matters in the stock market.

(37:46):
In my opinion, if these allegedintentions were accurate, a
potential reasoning would be topull one over for possible
alleged misconduct and possiblealleged embezzlement attempts
and other alleged mismanagementof funds, because your employees

(38:06):
wouldn't know what you weredoing allegedly wouldn't know
what you were doing allegedly.
Something that is not soalleged about Porter Stansberry
is that in May 2002, porterStansberry sent out an insider
tip using an alias of J Daniel,advising that the stock of

(38:28):
Company X was about to go up ina big way.
In order to access moredetailed information about
Company X, investors would haveto pay Jay Daniels $1,000 on top
of what they were alreadypaying his company for his
special newsletter, when thenthey would get the real good
shit sent to them in an email.

(38:49):
Out of the 800,000 subscriberswhich is an insane amount of
subscribers 1,217 pay the extra$1,000, which was over $1.2
million from one scammy-assemail.
My words, $200,000 of that waspocketed by Porter himself.

(39:15):
Scammy ass email my words.
$200,000 of that was pocketedby Porter himself.
However, when that super secrettip turned out to be a complete
load of shit, investors werenot too thrilled and they turned
around and complained to theSEC, that's, the Security and
Exchanges Commission.
The SEC investigated andExchanges Commission.
The SEC investigated and theycharged your boy.
Porter tried to argue that hehad a First Amendment right to

(39:40):
lie to his customers, but theSEC and a federal judge
disagreed with him and Porter'scompany was fined $1.5 million.
So fast forward to 2004.
Now, porter, what am I trying tosay With Porter, possibly up to
his old tricks, allegedly byhiring someone he knows is in a

(40:06):
bit of a financial spot and thathe knows doesn't know anything
about the stock market andinvesting?
Now, what Porter had initiallypitched to Ray as a one month
project ended up turning into athree month project, and then,
at the end of that three monthproject, ray was offered a

(40:27):
permanent position, and at thatpoint he was like, look at this
extra money, this is great.
And so he was like, yeah, Ican't turn this down Right.
And so, of course, he accepted.
Also, I have a little pick atthe name of Porter's company,

(40:54):
pirate Investment LLC.
In the early aughts, a piratewas a thief who stole stuff
digitally.
So was Porter telling onhimself.
So Ray's job was to write anewspaper called the Rebound

(41:15):
Report, and this report wassupposedly to predict stocks
that were dropping but thatPorter's company predicted would
rebound, thereby potentiallyhelping investors decide which
of these stocks to invest in,buy or sell.
So, even though Allison and Raywere both not fans of Baltimore

(41:39):
, they decided to give this job24 months to save the money that
they could use to kickstarttheir lives together buy a house
, do their wedding that theywanted and invest and raise
Dream Production Company.
However, they can no longerstand to live apart,

(42:01):
understandably.
So Allison moved to Baltimoreto be with Ray.
Her job at that time for like ahair product company allowed
her to work remotely, but shedid have to travel a lot,
sometimes internationally, andjust do a lot of business trips
for work wow, remotely beforecovid, I know awesome.

(42:24):
I mean, I assume that she wasdoing something, something
accounting, because they saidthat accounting was like her
major.

Speaker 1 (42:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (42:32):
Accounting in like business and previously she had
been doing accounting stuff, soI couldn't find what her like a
title was but I assume it wassomething accounting.
Yeah, that would make sense.
And that makes sense, right,you could do accounting from
anywhere, like you don't have tobe in the office.

Speaker 1 (42:49):
No, Unless you're around today, and then they
apparently do feel that way.
Yeah, assholes.

Speaker 2 (42:58):
Yeah, that's just to make employees feel like shit.
Yes, there's a lot of thingsthat they didn't hear, that you
can't do today, yeah, okay, sofor a little while they stayed
with Porter and then with withlike a relative of Allison's,
like an aunt of hers, but by theend of 2004, they were able to

(43:20):
purchase their own home that'sthe other thing.
I meant A four bedroomtownhouse that they closed on
for less than $300,000.
Yeah, amazing, yeah.
While Ray hated writing thenewsletter because he felt like
he wasn't really qualified to bedoing it Right and he kind of

(43:44):
dreaded doing it, yeah, buteventually he did settle into
the community.
He started coaching water poloagain.
The community got involved intheir local Catholic church and
Ray started working on a newscreenplay which was about a
young woman water polo playerwho makes it into the Olympics,

(44:07):
called Midnight Polo.
In June of 2005, ray attendedthe Agora, that's Porter's
company's parent company.
I wrote awkwardly annualconference and within the month
he had informed Porter of hisintentions to quit.

(44:30):
I didn't really write theconnection but apparently he was
like you know, it seemed likehe was in really good spirits.
His spirits were up Like.
He seemed like he was like morehappy in his job than he had
previously, and that was becausehe had pretty much decided like
I'm, I'm out of here.
Yeah, foot out the door, um.

(44:51):
So he was tired of writing thererun report and he wanted to
get out, get out, get back towhat he knew and loved.
Porter took the news well andeven offered to hire Ray to do
freelance videography for PirateInvestments LLC, agora and

(45:13):
their other subsidiary, theOxford Club, which is like a
club of rich fucks who are likegiving them tips on tax
loopholes.
Basically, ray and Allison tookout a $15,000 advance on
Allison's credit card so thatRay could start his own

(45:34):
freelance videographer businesscalled Saba Productions.
On November 5th 2005, ray andAllison were finally wed in a
beachside wedding in Puerto Rico.
Their wedding was a beautifuland intimate family affair with
personalized vows, and MariaRivera, ray's mom, even managed

(45:58):
to pull a somewhat famous Quatroplayer or actually quite famous
in Puerto Rico, I guess where.
I guess Quatro is a big deal inPuerto Rico, I guess Quattro is
a big deal in Puerto Rico, andshe was able to secure this
famous Quattro player for theirwedding.
So the only scar on thecelebrations was when Porter

(46:20):
arrived in his own privatehelicopter, supposedly with a
cigar hanging from his mouth hismouth.
On March 14, 2006, wrightattended the Oxford Club Annual
Investment University Conference.
As a freelance videographer, hehad to film the proceedings and

(46:44):
make DVDs about the conferencethat were then sent to members
of the Oxford Club that couldn'tmake it to the conference.
They had, however, paid forthose DVDs in advance.
In April of 2006, ray andAllison put their home up for

(47:05):
sale.
They were just about set tomove back to LA.
Ray's screenplay was complete.
He was ready to start pitchingit in Hollywood.
They also wanted to start afamily soon.
He was right there, at thefinish line of his time in

(47:25):
Baltimore, when shit pretty muchhit the fan.
So I think that's where I'mgoing to stop.

Speaker 1 (47:33):
Okay, Stay tuned for the crime possibly Yep.

Speaker 2 (47:38):
Stay tuned for crime.

Speaker 1 (47:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (47:42):
Well, lucky for our listeners, they don't have to
wait two weeks for crime becausewe also have this crazy little
children book.

Speaker 1 (47:50):
Oh yeah, that's right , yes, okay.
So our book oh yeah, that'sright, yes, okay.
So our book again was LittleCrazy Children by James Renner.
So in case you didn't read it,a little synopsis A teenage girl
named Lisa Pruitt was murdered.
Was she bludgeoned and stabbed,or just stabbed?

(48:12):
Uh?

Speaker 2 (48:13):
they said she was definitely stabbed.
I don't remember that her beingbludgeoned, so I'm gonna say
not bludgeoned.

Speaker 1 (48:20):
Okay, because I thought she's maybe like maybe
not bludgeoned, but like knockedout or something.
Yeah that may have been, so shemaybe had been knocked out, but
she was definitely stabbedsomething like 19 times and this
will be important because I'msure Rachel and I will discuss
it.
She had her shirt up around herneck and her pants and panties

(48:41):
were down around her ankle,found very close to her
boyfriend's house.
She had been riding her bike tomeet him.

Speaker 2 (48:49):
Her bike was like right in front of his house meet
him for a secret rendezvous.

Speaker 1 (48:54):
A young man named Kevin Young was suspected of her
murder.
He was acquitted and sotechnically her murder is
unsolved.
A lot of people still thinkKevin did it, although James
Renner and, I think, rachel andI both think that he did not do
it.
I think Rachel thinks theboyfriend did it and I think the

(49:17):
other guy did it.

Speaker 2 (49:19):
I'm uncertain now between, because we had talked
about some of the details andI'm not sure if I got details
mixed up or you got detailsmixed up, given my memory.

Speaker 1 (49:34):
Well, I know what you were saying.
I marked the thing.
So let me read you theparagraph, the thing, because
you had said something aboutRenner's timeline not really
matching up.

Speaker 2 (49:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (49:45):
With it being David.
So David was somebody nobodyreally looked at, even though he
went to the police.
That was Twice and he knewthings about the crime scene
that only somebody there couldhave known.
And he admitted to killing ananimal and putting was it like
Clorox or something in hisclassmate's sandwich?

Speaker 2 (50:06):
Yeah, and he most likely murdered the two elderly
neighbors from years beforethere were some two elderly
neighbors that had died A fewyears before and there had been
a break-in and they were killed.
They were also stabbed.
Yeah, and he was a quotewitness to that murder and he
gave a similar witness statementabout their deaths that he did.

(50:32):
So, those things werecompelling.
Yeah, the thing that I thoughtwas off is that I thought that
there is a funky timeline.
Yes, let me read that, but Imay have been mistaken about
that.

Speaker 1 (50:43):
No, I can see you weren't mistaken.
But also I think now, where didI have I marked the timeline?
Oh, there, it is Okay, so itwasn't really a timeline.
So this is the paragraph hesays I don't know who killed
Lisa, not for sure.
For many years Dan, who's aboyfriend, seemed like the most

(51:04):
likely suspect for all thereasons listed in this book, but
I've come to believe he'sinnocent too.
I think maybe he took robo thatnight, meaning robitussin.
Um, he used to get high on itthe kids used to.

Speaker 2 (51:16):
That was like a big theme through a lot of the book.

Speaker 1 (51:19):
Yeah, I think maybe he even had sex with her.
The evidence suggested she wasthe one who took off her clothes
and there was a condom nearby.
But I looked back and thecondom was still in the package.
But the package was ripped openso it didn't seem to be a used
condom I could be wrong aboutthat, but I, that's it.
That stuck out to me because itseemed like it wasn't a used

(51:42):
condom.
Yeah, there's a condom nearby,but I don't think dan was with
her when she was killed.
I just don't see it anymore.
As far as I can tell, danhasn't hurt a soul in 30 years
since and he didn't drinkhimself to death like so many of
the others.
So he's saying he thinks it'spossible.

Speaker 2 (51:59):
Yes, that is definitely what I found to be
inconsistent, because I feltthat if his hypothesis that she
had sex with Dan and then Danleft her with her like clothes,
her like pants down and hershirt up, and then like what is
like david, like waiting in thebushes, like hopping out

(52:20):
immediately and like stabbingher to death that time, like
didn't well she's right there.

Speaker 1 (52:26):
she's right there, just like, I mean, but like,
like, like, but also the lettersthat Dan didn't say anything or
see anything Unless they werein it together.
No, I don't think that.
First of all, james Renner'sjust saying I think it's
possible.
I don't think he's actuallysaying that's what happened, but
but I according to theirletters there seemed to be a

(52:52):
little like domination,humiliation thing going.

Speaker 2 (52:55):
And if that were the case?

Speaker 1 (52:56):
then Dan would absolutely have left her there
with her panties around herankles and just walked off.

Speaker 2 (53:02):
That's true and it is entirely possible that David
was lurking there, but would shejust have lain there like?

Speaker 1 (53:06):
that.
Well, maybe she was standing upand David was actually watching
.
He seemed to have apredilection for watching and
for nobody knowing he was there,because there were all those
break-ins and burglaries.
And he said that he did that.
So that may be possible.
But what I think is alsopossible, that nobody seemed to
mention in the thing, is thatDavid could have he had a knife

(53:30):
so he could have told her totake her clothes off yeah,
that's and then killed her.
Maybe he intended to rape herand because she was screaming,
he didn't or maybe, or hecouldn't frame dan or he was
trying to frame somebody?

Speaker 2 (53:45):
yeah, because he did know, or maybe he intended yeah
stuff, and then she wasnon-cooperative and he lost his
patience.
Yeah, that's also true.

Speaker 1 (53:57):
So I don't, yeah, I don't think Dan and her had sex.
I don't see that as even beinga possibility.

Speaker 2 (54:06):
Yeah, I was also confused about that, because
they were like there is no signsof rape or whatever.
And I'm like yeah, I mean,there's definitely other sexual
things that they could have beendoing, but, like, because he
was referring to the condom, I'mlike that sounds like he thinks
that they had, you know, likepenis-vaginal intercourse, yeah.

Speaker 1 (54:26):
Although, again, I don't think the condom was used.
I know.

Speaker 2 (54:30):
I'm just talking shit .

Speaker 1 (54:32):
One condom, half out of the wrapper in the driveway.

Speaker 2 (54:36):
Yeah, so I mean that could be used or not used,
because one could use it andthen like stuff it back in the
wrapper.

Speaker 1 (54:43):
But then they don't mention anything about testing a
condom.

Speaker 2 (54:47):
Yeah.
With semen, but they alsodidn't do a lot of due diligence
no, they didn't case no, theydidn't, because there was also
the he talked about that.
There was also other traces ofdna on her body and, like the,
the potential dog hairs thatwere not tested, they were
eventually tested, though, Ifound a list of items from the

(55:08):
crime scene that was provided toDevan during discovery.

Speaker 1 (55:11):
Here's all the police had to work with Lisa's navy
blue turtleneck had blood stains, okay, and they had picked up
some hairs and vegetation.
Yeah, there was white stain onthe sleeve.
Tested the shirt but found nosemen or saliva.
She had grass stains on theknees and on the backside.
They tested her underwear nosemen.
Oral, rectal and vaginal swabsshowed no sperm.

(55:37):
They found two hairs on her body, one on her right hand, I mean,
if that's the only evidence,wait, wait, and another on her
left foot, and eventually theydid get around to testing them
against a sample from Lisa'sscalp.
They matched the hairs wereLisa's.
A condom wrapper was collectedfrom the ground near the scene,

(55:59):
so that's a little different,because at first he said there
was a condom half in the wrapperfound at the scene.
Spots of blood found on Lisa'sbody were tested.
The samples were consistentwith Lisa's blood type A,
kevin's was O.
The detectives had also found abrown wrapper with bloody shoe
print on it.
The print was from a shoe witha herringbone pattern on its
sole.
The FBI tested Lisa and Kevin'sblood.
However, the DNA from thebloody bag was too degraded.

(56:20):
They also found a partial poemprint on the newspaper found
inside the brown paper bag, butthey were unable to match it to
Kevin.
What about the dog hairs,though?

Speaker 2 (56:33):
Maybe they didn't, but Because in the trial, like
you talked about how there weredog hairs, or the defense
attorney talked about how therewere dog hairs, yeah, and that
Dan has a dog.

Speaker 1 (56:46):
Yeah, well, I mean, it's entirely possible that he
and her met.
They had met up earlier.
It's entirely possible she gotdog hair on it.

Speaker 2 (56:54):
Yeah, I mean, I have dog hair, I'm not saying that
there isn't an innocent reasonfor there to be dog hair.
I just wanted to know if theytested the dog hair.
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (57:04):
I thought he said that they did, but I was
mistaking it for the other hairthey found on her.

Speaker 2 (57:08):
Yeah, I mean she could, yeah, suspect, yeah, no,

(57:34):
I agree that dan is a suspect,but I but, yeah, if, if you
excuse that, which I think is alittle bit of a, I don't know, I
think the phrasing is a littlebit sloppy.

Speaker 1 (57:41):
That's why I said well, it could be I mean he,
he's, he's just throwing out atheory, yeah, you know, yeah I
know, like about, but like whyhe might think it was dan, or
how dan could be connected inthat way, or trying to explain
why her clothes are up, sinceshe wasn't raped right but I
think that's missing.
But it is the idea that likeyou said.

Speaker 2 (58:03):
Like is the?
Is there a condom in thewrapper?
Is there not a condom in thewrapper?

Speaker 1 (58:07):
like well they may, they may not have listed that it
was a used condom.
I mean, he's taking all of thisdecades after the fact, yeah,
and it doesn't seem like theydid a very, very thorough job.

Speaker 2 (58:19):
I mean um even the very true the defense attorney.

Speaker 1 (58:23):
Even he came by, he was like look, there are these
pictures of sunglasses nobodysays anything about sunglasses.

Speaker 2 (58:28):
yeah, that's another thing.
I was like that's not important, like who going to say and the
prosecutor's like, no, it's notimportant, like who owns
sunglasses.
Yeah, like, did they ever?
Like look into that.
Probably not, they were liketrying to say it was keys here's
.

Speaker 1 (58:41):
yeah, here's the thing.
The police don't think thatanybody other than Kevin could
do it.
Once they locked on Kevin, theyrefused to look at anybody else
yeah and that also includes theprosecutor.
The prosecutor got that b inhis bonnet and he he was not
interested, according toeverybody that spoke to him, of

(59:02):
even entertaining the idea thatsomebody else is a huge problem
with policing sometimes it isthey.

Speaker 2 (59:08):
They can very much get into tunnel and vision like
kevin, even had like an alibifrom his parents yeah, although
I were like they were, like theycouldn't possibly know that
he's really there, or somethingwell, I wouldn't.

Speaker 1 (59:25):
I wouldn't take an alibi from a parent at face
value either, because parentsare going to protect their kids
I mean, yeah, but it's like it'sworth looking more into.
Yeah although how could theydisprove it or prove it?
Because the only people therewere I don't know.

Speaker 2 (59:42):
That's their job, though, to disprove or prove it
you, you, yes, but you can't.

Speaker 1 (59:47):
You can't if there are only two people and one
person says they have it andthat person is a father of the
suspect, like they couldn'tprove that, like he was at the
scene of the crime, like theyhad no evidence of that.
I'm not saying that.
I'm not saying that Kevinshould have ever been a suspect.
He never should have been.
I'm just saying I personally,anytime I hear that a kid's

(01:00:09):
parent is the alibi or that aspouse is an alibi, I say fuck
that.

Speaker 2 (01:00:15):
I don't believe it at all.
I don't want to grant you that,but I'm saying the burden of
proof is on them and they didn'thave anything.
They had no proof that he wasthere.

Speaker 1 (01:00:23):
No, I know, I was talking only about the alibi
yeah, but that is not an alibiyou can prove or disprove,
because the only people therewere Kevin and the father.

Speaker 2 (01:00:35):
On the other hand, like the witness, statements
from the friends of Dan areequally uncredible.
Yes, I agree, because they arealso biased.

Speaker 1 (01:00:44):
I absolutely agree, I'm not disagreeing with that,
I'm talking just in general.
When it's something like you,there's only two people yeah,
the suspect, and then thesuspect's parent or spouse or
partner or child they're goingto.
There's a huge possibility thatthey are possibly lying, but

(01:01:08):
you can't prove or disprove thatbecause there's only the two
people I get that, that, but ifI mean like, if that.
And they weren't trying toprove or disprove that.
But I mean, dan's only alibiwas his dad.

Speaker 2 (01:01:22):
Yeah, and yet they took that much more seriously.

Speaker 1 (01:01:27):
True.
Well, they locked onto Kevin,and I'm not disagreeing with you
at all, I'm just saying theydid lock on to Kevin.
I'm just saying.
An alibi of a parent for achild is not one that I would
take seriously.

Speaker 2 (01:01:39):
There were such assholes and they were
interrogating Kevin in themiddle of the night and they
were like you can do whateveryou want, but you should really
take these three fucking liedetector tests.
It was bullshit.

Speaker 1 (01:01:51):
The lie detector test that they used was not good at
all.

Speaker 2 (01:01:56):
I mean, they're not really good period but nowadays
there's something like 90accurate rather than 70 accurate
like um I don't like liedetector tests anyway yeah, no,
they're not good no, it's kindof like it, just another kind of
intimidation techniqueabsolutely, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:02:15):
But yeah, they locked .

Speaker 2 (01:02:17):
They locked on to kevin because of that dumb
lawyer and like when, when helike hugged the officer and shit
like that, like that made mereally like pissed off because I
was like you know, this officeris not your friend no, but but
no.

Speaker 1 (01:02:32):
So we don't think Kevin did it.
But the reason Kevin got ontheir radar, besides the fact
that the friends kept harping onit was because there was a
lawyer who was being interviewedwho knew somebody involving the
case I guess Kevin's originallawyer not the one that actually
went to trial and that lawyerthat was being hired or being

(01:03:00):
interviewed said that Kevin'slawyer had said that Kevin did
it.

Speaker 2 (01:03:02):
My eyes kind of glazed over with those.

Speaker 1 (01:03:05):
Okay, so, okay.
So Kevin had two lawyers, yep,Okay, so Kevin's second lawyer
is the one that he went to trialwith.
He's the Nixon dude.
Okay, okay, kevin's.
So at the district attorney'soffice not at the one where it

(01:03:28):
happened, but at another oneclose by they were looking for
or maybe it was the samedistrict attorney's office, but
anyway they were looking for alawyer.
They were interviewing lawyers.
They had a lawyer who came in.
That lawyer said that he eitherknew someone or that he knew

(01:03:57):
Kevin's original lawyer.
And the original lawyer saidKevin did it and in the
interview, hold on, in theinterview he told that to the
person that was interviewing him.
I can't remember if she waslike a deputy da or da, I don't
remember, but she was high up inthe in the whatever right.
So she took that and I don'tknow if she gave it to moreno or

(01:04:20):
if she was also on the case.
I don't't remember.
But they hold on.
They went to investigate, notthe attorneys.
The attorneys told the policewhat had been told to them.
They went.
The police then went toquestion Kevin's other lawyer
and Kevin, the lawyer, said Inever said anything like that.

(01:04:43):
Okay, so, in other words, thelawyer that was being hired just
wanted.
He thought it might give him anedge to being hired.
He lied.
But, that's when the policelatched on to the idea that it

(01:05:04):
was Kevin.
I mean they couldn't do thatanyways because it's a breach of
lawyer client confidentiality.
Well, yes, they were proceedingwith caution is what the
attorney said because, yes, itcould be a breach of whatever,
but that doesn't mean lawyersdon't do it.
But they weren't trying to getthe lawyer in trouble, but they
weren't trying to get the lawyerin trouble.

(01:05:25):
They weren't trying to get thelawyer in trouble, but the
lawyers.
There were two lawyers involved.
The lawyer, kevin's lawyerThanks, john Grisham.
Kevin's lawyer said he didn'tsay that, and then the person
that Kevin's lawyer allegedlysaid it to said that he never
said it.
So it turns out the lawyer thatwanted to be hired was just

(01:05:47):
saying bullshit.

Speaker 2 (01:05:49):
But that's when they really latched onto it the
lawyer who's saying bullshitwanted to be hired by the
district attorney's office.
Yeah, okay, and he thought I'mbringing in some juicy
information.
Okay, yeah, I get you.
Yeah, I was like that's not theway to get no, um, he didn't
get hired even for a districtattorney that you wouldn't want

(01:06:10):
to hire a lawyer that is soflippant with like lawyer,
client confidence the lawyerthat was being hired wasn't the
original lawyer.

Speaker 1 (01:06:20):
He's saying he heard it.
He knows somebody who knew theoriginal lawyer, I see and that
the original lawyer said that,not the lawyer that is being
interviewed.
Okay, the lawyer that was beinginterviewed just said he heard
through the grapevine.

Speaker 2 (01:06:41):
So, even though they were like we don't believe this,
but we do believe it oh, whatdo you mean?
Like they latched on to theidea.

Speaker 1 (01:06:51):
They never said that they don't believe it at that
point, even though kevin's firstlawyer said he never said that,
they still decided to latch onto kevin why would that lawyer
say it though, when he could?
Yeah, he would lose his client,he could be disbarred well,
yeah, but the the whole point ismoreno, the, the da who

(01:07:13):
actually tried the case.
He believed it and heessentially got the police into
believing it.
Well, that's nonsense.
But moreno turns out is kind ofa liar.
He's gotten in trouble manytimes for withholding evidence
how he was talking about, how hewas a liar yeah and um, he

(01:07:37):
admitted that he probably lockedsomeone up in prison who was
but then when he interviewed himhe was like I just did what was
best, or some shit like thatyeah, so I I feel like moreno
latched on to kevin and hewasn't interested as many people
that moreno interviewed evenafterward, when they kept saying

(01:07:58):
somebody else was there, blah,blah, blah.
He wasn't interested in hearingthat.
He latched on to david forwhatever reason.

Speaker 2 (01:08:05):
I mean he latched on to kevin for whatever reason
nobody looked at, david is theone that they should have
latched on to yeah, and even,and david came in twice to talk
to the police and he, he, hetold the police that's what
kills me.

Speaker 1 (01:08:20):
He told the police that he basically manipulated
Dan's friends into telling thepolice that they knew it was
Kevin or that they suspectedKevin.
David told the police that andthe police still went after
Kevin.

Speaker 2 (01:08:40):
It's because he blamed it on a black man.
They're like hi, father, gohome.
That part pissed me off andthen later, like he was like he
was like fishing buddies withthat dude I was like how dare
you?

Speaker 1 (01:08:54):
yeah I was like fuck out of here, like go be a hermit
he said david toldaney, who wasone of the detectives, that he
went to Arabica, which was arestaurant and coffee place.
Yes, I remember Arabica all day.
Yeah, he went to Arabica thenand sat with Tex, debbie

(01:09:15):
Dreifurt and Stanley Kramer, whowere all discussing the murder.
That's when Kevin's young namecame up and David told them he
thought that Kevin could havedone it.
Quote Kevin left Arabica inenough time to cut off Lisa on
her way home to approach her.
David said he told Mulaney thatwas all he'd heard about the

(01:09:36):
murder until he left to go tothe hospital for long-term
treatment on October 8th.
So I can't tell if this issaying that David told the kids,
the teens, that Kevin couldhave done it or if it's saying
that David told the police hethought Kevin could have done it

(01:09:59):
.
It's in the paragraph wherehe's talking to Tex, debbie and
Stanley.
So I feel like he's likeKevin's name came up and he was
like yeah, yeah, yeah, it's gotto be Kevin, knowing that Kevin
was an odd child.

Speaker 2 (01:10:14):
Yeah, All right.
Yeah, it was probably David.

Speaker 1 (01:10:18):
It could still be, dan.
I'm not saying it's not Dan.
I'm just saying I'm not likedisappointed, I mean like, yeah,
you know, I mean cause they dolike, like he pointed out in the
book.

Speaker 2 (01:10:27):
I mean I think there's still like evidence,
like towards Dan as well, well,that's what I was trying to say
but it does seem like Daviddefinitely had all these history
of violence and that I mean,dan's really only guilty of
being a dumbass, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:10:45):
Just that paragraph about that timeline threw me off
and he only said it's possible.
He didn't say that's reallywhat he thought, he just said
it's possible.

Speaker 2 (01:10:58):
Yeah, I get that, but I just didn't understand how
that worked for him as atimeline also you know?

Speaker 1 (01:11:05):
no, I I don't either, other than that maybe it was
like a wham bam thank you ma'amor like a yeah, um, like dan was
just an absolute dick, orthere's more to it that he's not
telling us yeah, in which caseI'm like tell me well, not the,
not the author.
Yeah, I think he's doing what hecan.

(01:11:26):
But even the defense attorneydidn't think Dan did it.
But he said when he was talkingto Jenner he said I don't think
Dan did it, I don't think Kevindid it, I don't think Dan did
it, I think some other persondid it.
And Renner was like then whydid you not bring that up in the
trial?
And he's like giving too manyoptions to a jury is just going

(01:11:51):
to make it look like you'retrying to throw things at the
wall.

Speaker 2 (01:11:54):
And I mean it's true.
So Dan is the likelier suspect?
It's true, because that's nothis job.
No, His job is to ensure thathis client is not found guilty.

Speaker 1 (01:12:06):
Yeah and the most likely person, other than some
fabled unknown, would be Dan.
I mean, come on, it's alwaysthe boyfriend.
We were kind of talking aboutthat earlier with the Katie
Sepik case, right, everybodythought the boyfriend did it,
even when the police, like youknow, didn't do anything with
the boyfriend did it, even whenthe police, like you know,
didn't do anything with the withthe boyfriend.

(01:12:27):
Yeah, people still thought itwas the boyfriend.
Turned out it was a unknownserial killer, yep, that killed
her.
Well, I wonder if david couldhave killed other people well, I
think you and I and rennerfirmly believe that he killed
that elderly couple.

Speaker 2 (01:12:44):
Well, yeah, but.

Speaker 1 (01:12:45):
I mean besides them, yeah, no, no, I agree, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:12:50):
I would agree, because I'm like, if he killed
the old couple and he killed,you know, lisa as well, then
like, did he kill other peopletoo?

Speaker 1 (01:12:58):
Yeah, he certainly tried to kill his classmate when
he was a kid.
Yeah, that's scary.
It is scary the thing, though.
Weirdly, what upset me in thebook was not even the case
although the case is upsetting,obviously, and it's sad that
lisa hasn't and her familyhaven't really gotten any
justice but it was thejournalist in the book, the one

(01:13:24):
covering the trial.

Speaker 2 (01:13:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:13:27):
And the friend of Dan's that then became a
journalist, catherine, and thatdumb asshole who wrote that
shitty article judging everybodywho does true crime.

Speaker 2 (01:13:41):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:13:42):
Yeah, I was like rude .
Yeah, it was rude, and she'snot even a good.
I mean her.
Her journalistic integrity hasbeen called into question so
many times.

Speaker 2 (01:13:52):
Yeah, but also uh like I like I get it like in in
some, but yeah, yeah, I meanthere are, there's certainly
yeah there's.

Speaker 1 (01:14:04):
Well, there's also.

Speaker 2 (01:14:05):
Certainly, yes, there is some bad true crime out
there and but most true crime isvery sensitive, like our last
book that we read about was allabout, like you know, the fervor
whipped up by the press, yeah,and like how much damage has
like bad press done press donewhen it comes to like true crime

(01:14:27):
and like pointing the fingerincorrectly.
So it's definitely not just thetrue crime community that has
made errors.

Speaker 1 (01:14:38):
No.

Speaker 2 (01:14:38):
Cops have made errors .

Speaker 1 (01:14:40):
Yeah, the journalist, everybody makes errors.
Well, she wasn't talking aboutthe errors being made.
She was talking about howdisgusting it is that people are
interested in true crime andhow disgusting people like
Renner are for writing about it.
Not so much the news as truecrime.

Speaker 2 (01:14:56):
Well, I didn't find that he wrote about it in a
sensationalist way at all.
In fact, I found it rather dry.
I don't even think she wastalking about it in a
sensationalist way at all, infact, I found it rather dry.

Speaker 1 (01:15:04):
I don't even think she was talking about it in a
sensationalist way.
She's talking about the factthat anybody would write a book.
I think it was actuallyarmchair, which called armchair
detectives.
So, like you and I, yeah, if wewere gonna sit around and, uh,
actually try to solve the case,sure, those people, yeah, and
true crime writers but likesometimes that does solve cases

(01:15:25):
nowadays certainly um andmichelle mcnamara.
I've got that book right there.
I'll be gone in the dark.

Speaker 2 (01:15:31):
She helped, if you look at the, the rates of like
the murder cases get solved.
It's like 50 percent, yeah, inthe us, yeah, so it's like you
know, like there definitely issome very like icky,
sensationalist true crime outthere.
That I think is quite gross.

Speaker 1 (01:15:54):
But again, she wasn't talking about sensationalist.
Yeah, she was talking aboutanybody of any caliber that
writes any sort of true crime orpays attention to true crime or
tries to solve a true crimecase.
Who is not a detective orwhatever are garbage that was
her point not justsensationalism no but just flat
out we're all.
Anybody interested in true crimeis a horrible person.

(01:16:16):
My main point, it isn't evencriticizing true crime, because
there's a lot to be, lots to becriticized.
I, I understand that.
But and even true crime fans,we look at ourselves and are
like, is this okay to do right?
I think we've even bothquestioned ourselves even about
the podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:16:33):
Yeah, I mean like even earlier when we made that
comment.
I made that comment about youknow the child murders.
You know like maybe childrenyou know did it or whatever, and
I'm like, oh, that's too far.

Speaker 1 (01:16:50):
You know, like well, I mean, yeah, I think most
people would understand, youknow, but yeah, but I don't want
to be like you know, taking ittoo lightly and no, but like you
know, sometimes you justtalking about something and be,
like, you know, taking it toolightly and you know.

Speaker 2 (01:17:05):
But, like you know, sometimes you're just talking
about something and and you knowyou know, nobody is laughing at
the actual crime.

Speaker 1 (01:17:12):
Yeah, nobody's doing that no, of course.
Um, but you gotta, you gottalighten the mood somehow.
But my other main point, thewhole reason I brought up the
thing wasn't so much about thetrue crime diss, it was.
I wanted to be a journalist.
I went to journalism school.
That is my undergrad.
I worked at the collegenewspaper I'm not naive anymore

(01:17:40):
were bastions of truth and thatwe have a duty to enlighten the
world and to shed light on thehorrible things.
And I still believe that's true.
But it took me a long time toreally grasp the fact that every
news source we have it's abusiness first.

(01:18:03):
Yeah, it's a business first,and as much as we want to
pretend that we are unbiased, weare not even the best of us,
and certainly when you've got tvnews and publishing news, the
tone is going to be that whichsells the most absolutely, you

(01:18:26):
know.
That's why fox news went frombeing a reputable news source,
yeah, to being one that openlylies about shit or just ignore
shit.
And that's why cnn lean as muchas they want to say, they're
unbiased, leans very left right,because they know their
audience.
And it bothers me thatjournalists willfully lie, like

(01:18:51):
the guy that was covering thetrial.

Speaker 2 (01:18:53):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (01:18:53):
Who deliberately?

Speaker 2 (01:18:55):
lied.

Speaker 1 (01:18:57):
And destroyed Kevin's life, and he almost killed
himself because this guydestroyed everything.
I mean, he was just so.
I don't know how that guy canlook himself in the mirror ever
and he wasn't sorry about iteven.
Yeah, it just.
It bothers me when peoplewillfully lie Like again.
I'm not naive, I know thathappens, but nowadays we're

(01:19:21):
supposed to have thesejournalistic ethics.

Speaker 2 (01:19:23):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:19:24):
Granted, granted not really, uh, legally binding in
any way, but we do, I think we.
I'm not a journalist anymore,uh, but journalists do have a
duty, I think, to get as closeto the truth as they can.
And when people willfully dostuff like that and destroy
lives, what a piece of shit youare.
You're a disgusting human being.

(01:19:45):
You're no better than thepeople who did the crime.
You may as well have right,especially in this case, if
kevin had killed himself.
That's that dude's fault yep,yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:20:00):
another thing that I think about a lot in regards to
journalism is just simplyomission, right, like omitting
important stories.
If you don't hear about it, itdoesn't exist.
Yeah, not to give journalists apass, but not to, you know, say

(01:20:24):
they're worse than other things, because I think that a lot of
professions are like that.

Speaker 1 (01:20:28):
Oh, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:20:31):
You know law and, of course, of course, police and
government and all of thesethings that are supposed to be
super noble and Teaching.
Yeah, and of course it'scorruption through and through.
Yeah, a single profession, oruh, you know calling that, is

(01:21:04):
not tainted by corruption andnot tainted by, you know, like
capitalism and and moneyedinterests and yes, it's in
everything, but I I get upsetwhen it's journalism because I
take it personally, because Iwanted to be a journalist, so
that makes me extra mad.

Speaker 1 (01:21:26):
Understandable, makes me extra mad.
I feel personally offended whenthey do that, even though,
again, I haven't done any sortof journalism in like 15 years,
but it still really bothers me.
And I used to be a news junkie.
I used to watch the news 24-7.
I used to be a news junkie.
I used to watch the news 24-7.
I used to read multiplenewspapers.

(01:21:46):
I spent a lot of moneysubscribing to a lot of
newspapers, I did all kinds, andnow I don't really look at
anything anymore because it justangers me.
It angers me.
So our next book is going to be.
Where's my phone?
It is a book.

(01:22:08):
It is a book, a true crime book.
It is a true crime book.
I didn't do the second half ofmy Missing Person either.
Why can't I find the name of it?
Sorry, I got distracted.
Matt Murphy just postedsomething on Instagram.
Oh my God, I know, let's seewhen is it.

(01:22:28):
So we are doing Long Haul byFrank Figliuzzi,
f-i-g-l-i-u-z-z-i, so that's ournext book.
Yeah, let me do this quickthing about the missing person.

(01:22:49):
Real quick, though, okay, oh,yes.

Speaker 2 (01:22:51):
Very important.

Speaker 1 (01:22:52):
Okay, so we're talking about Giovanna Taylor.
She disappeared from her homein the 2000 block of East
Gregory Street, tacoma,washington, under suspicious
circumstances.
She was 29 years old at thetime and the mother of four
children.
Tyler was married but had filedfor an order of protection
against her husband in August of2003.

(01:23:13):
In April of 2004, tyler'sparents reported her missing
after they had neither seen norheard from her in approximately
two weeks.
She has not contacted herfamily since her disappearance
and investigators have beenunable to locate her or any
persons who have had contactwith her.
If you have any informationconcerning this person, please

(01:23:36):
contact your local FBI office orthe nearest American embassy or
consulate.
The field office is in Seattleand again, they're offering a
$10,000 reward and we'll postthat information.
I got that information from theFBI website and we'll post our

(01:23:56):
sources as usual in thedoohickey.
So Long Haul by Frank Figliuzziis our next book.
You know, if you could, itwould be really awesome if you
would download our episodes like, subscribe, review and email us
.
Have you checked our emailrecently?

Speaker 2 (01:24:17):
I'll check it right now, but every time I check it I
know it's probably going to becrickets.

Speaker 1 (01:24:21):
It's probably going to be crickets, but it would be
cool if you wanted to email usand give us your thoughts and
opinions, and we will talk toyou next time.
Bye, bye.