Down the Rabbit Hole: The Baffling Case of Rey Rivera Part 2

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
A quick note before our episode starts.
I kept getting the episodenumbers confused, so to be clear
, this is episode 25 and ourbook will be episode 28.
And that's it.
Enjoy.
I'm Kiki and I'm Rachel, andthis is.
Details Are Sketchy, a truecrime podcast, and I don't know

(00:22):
what we're doing right now.
My mind just went blank.
I'm in a food coma.
I'm too much ice cream, toomuch teriyaki chicken.

Speaker 2 (00:30):
We had a little partay.
You sure did Partay before thepodcast.

Speaker 1 (00:37):
Well, so that brings us to happy birthday, rachel.
By the time this comes out,it'll be a full week since your
birthday, but happy birthday Iam officially old.
Oh my God, I'm older than you.

Speaker 2 (00:51):
No matter.
It doesn't mean that you're old, but like to me, you are.

Speaker 1 (00:55):
I know, I know, I know I felt old my entire 30s.

Speaker 2 (00:58):
But I hear you Like when people are like I'm so fat,
I'm like I'm so fat, I'm likeshut the fuck up yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:07):
It's okay.
I'm just saying enjoy your lastfew years of being 30.

Speaker 2 (01:12):
My last few years of life.
That sounded really obvious.

Speaker 1 (01:17):
No, just being 30.
I mean, 40 hasn't been bad, butI have noticed, you know, some
new aches and pains and youcan't do those like four-hour
nights anymore, yeah, thosefour-hour sleep nights anymore.
At least I can't.

Speaker 2 (01:31):
I mean I never really could, but it's even worse now.
I do like four-hour nights andthen like I crash, like in the
middle of the day I'm like I'mfunctioning.
I'm functioning and then I'mlike so not functioning.
That like if I sit down orsomething and I like, look at my

(01:53):
phone, I like would literallydrop my phone because I'm
passing out.
Yeah, that's how bad it is so.
I'm like I can do this, but Ilike I actually can't.

Speaker 1 (02:00):
Yeah, I don't do that , but I definitely don't
function at my best, although Idon't really know what
functioning at my best is Idon't think I ever have but I
have a hard time waking up.
Getting me up is very difficult.
If it's only been a few hours,yeah.
And then I get that thing whereit's not just a second wind,

(02:23):
but when it comes to like go tobed at a reasonable hour that
day.
I can't go to bed then, so I'mjust on this terrible like four
hours a night cycle until I passout one day, yeah, yeah, if I
forget to take my meds at night,then I'm like I'm awake.

Speaker 2 (02:41):
I'm like, why am I awake?
I'm like, oh, I forgot to takemy meds.
Like I'm awake.
I'm like, why am I awake?
I'm like, oh, I forgot to takemy meds.
So yeah, because my, my brainwill just go on something and
like, you know, like my brainjust likes being awake and
active at night, and then alsolike I get the you know like

(03:01):
restless legs and stuff yeah somy body cannot get comfortable
yeah and so that is a verydeadly combination yes, it is.

Speaker 1 (03:10):
Yeah.
Does your brain think aboutlike random life things or is it
more like like fantasy?
Because my brain that, for mybrain that's like storytelling
time and I tell myself stories.

Speaker 2 (03:23):
I used to do that like a lot, like I really had a
really rich, yeah, like fantasylife yeah, I can like imagine up
any kind of a story like latelyI don't do that as much anymore
and I'm not sure.
I'm not sure why that is.
I guess I do like in a way, butit's, I guess it's less

(03:45):
fantastical.
Yeah, I guess it's like youknow, like our future life could
be like this yeah, that that'swhat I mean I don't have.

Speaker 1 (03:52):
Yeah, I don't go into fantasy land anymore, but it'll
be like a really more realisticfantasy land.

Speaker 2 (03:59):
A very sensible fantasy, right like like oh,
what I wouldn't do for thatmixer stand or whatever, yeah,
we could have a three-bedroomapartment and I could have a
second dog and yeah, like real,real luxury stuff, right, I mean
it is kind of a luxury it is itis, dogs are now a luxury.

(04:22):
Yeah, that makes me quite sadbecause I'm like I love dogs.
Yeah, like I don't want to livewithout dogs.
Like, like, stop, like, stoptrying to take my dogs away.

Speaker 1 (04:36):
Capitalism right boy.
We're not even five minutes inand we're already railing on
capitalism you know like animalsbring so much joy.
They do, they're incrediblytherapeutic.

Speaker 2 (04:47):
It's like now you're trying to suck all the joy out
of my life.
Yeah, like, don't take myanimals away from me, right?
You know?
Like landlords and just likethe cost of like, even like
feeding Like you know like Ifeed homemade.
That's expensive, but like petfood is also fucking expensive.

Speaker 1 (05:08):
It's gone up exponentially.

Speaker 2 (05:10):
So, much it's gone up exponentially and so like even
when I've been like maybe Ishould switch, you know, to just
pet food, because I'm like, oh,this is also insanely expensive
and like it's not really asavings either no, no, it isn't
yeah it's tough, it is tough,it's tough.

(05:31):
So, and I'm fortunate thatnixie is my esa.
Uh, I don't hear anybodybullshit about.
Esa is okay, I'm fucked up weall are here in new mexico, yeah
you cannot get an esa letterunless you have been seeing a

(05:52):
provider for like a while.
Yeah, so I've been had beenseeing my provider for like
three years.
Yeah.
When I asked him hey, like youknow, I want to find out about,
you know, getting my dog as anesa.
Yeah, and like he wrote aletter for me right on the spot.
Yeah, so I don't want to hearabout fake esas or anything like

(06:17):
that.
Some of us need real esas.

Speaker 1 (06:20):
Yeah, and like pets have so many health benefits
they do, even if it's not.
That whatever, uh, you knowwhat I mean no, you don't know
what I mean.
But yes, I yeah, I mean justjust regular people having
regular animals.

Speaker 2 (06:38):
It is very therapeutic, I feel like it
should be, I feel like it shouldbe all right for people to have
animals because it's so goodfor us and it's good for them
too, and so it's like what gooddoes it do Like if all these

(07:02):
animals are like dying and allthese people are miserable?
I guess that is good for thecapitalist machine, but it's
actually really not, becausewhen people are miserable and
downtrodden they're not soproductive workers so, yeah, I
mean, dogs are instant medicine.

Speaker 1 (07:11):
I was at um, I was in college at st john's, and we
would always leave the um frontdoors open and a lot of us would
leave our dorm rooms openduring the day because people
would come and go and talk andwhatever, and I was stressed out
.
I was feeling very depressed.

(07:31):
I hadn't been diagnosed yet.
I was riddled with anxiety, itwas.
You know, I was incredibly shyat that point in time and I was
at a school that required younot to be shy because it was all
speaking right.
It was all, uh, discussionbased and I think it was.

(07:52):
I want to say it was summermaybe, but anyway, we had this
thing up and this random dogjust came in and like put his
little head on my leg and it waslike instant calm.
Yeah, you know it was, it waslike set, it was.

Speaker 2 (08:08):
I was blissed out and it got me through whatever
homework I was doing that's whythey have these therapy dogs
that go to hospitals and nursinghomes and things of that nature
, because it just makes peoplefeel so calm and ease and it
just-hmm.
It just lifts your mood.

Speaker 1 (08:29):
It does, even when they're being asshats and
barking at the UPS guy.

Speaker 2 (08:31):
There's a reason that we domesticated dogs, yes, and
cats and cats.
Yeah, yes, I love my littlekitties, me too.
Agnes is like my little shadow.
Yeah, she like, like, followsme around, like, as soon as
there's an opportunity, like Isaid, she'll climb on my chest
and climb on my lap and and shelike purrs and she like hucks

(08:54):
her little claws into me andit's like you're stuck now right
.

Speaker 1 (09:01):
Yeah, my cats aren't really lap cats, but they they
demand to have their chin rubbeda few times a day.

Speaker 2 (09:10):
Dexter's not so much a lap cat, but definitely he's
got his times of the day whenhe's like I need attention.

Speaker 1 (09:17):
Yeah, when I went over to eat with you, he didn't
want me to stop petting him.
Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (09:21):
Yeah, yeah, he'll come over'll.
Did he flop over so you couldrub his belly?
Yeah, he loves that, yeah he'sa sweetheart.

Speaker 1 (09:29):
Yeah, he is.
Yeah, did you name him afterdexter, the serial killer kind?

Speaker 2 (09:35):
of, yeah, yeah, kind of kind of a combination.
We have been watching dexter,yeah, the serial killer show.
We also both like Dexter's Laband I was like Dexter just fits
a cat because Dexter, dexterityI was like it's a cat name.

(09:55):
Sometimes Jay will piss me offand call him Baxter, but he
won't respond to Baxter.
I'm like Baxter is a dog's name.
I love my animals.
I do too.
I guess I like X's and N's.

Speaker 1 (10:19):
Do you think like animals take after their owners,
or like you kind of get youkind kind of I don't want to say
soul connect, because thatsounds kind of woo woo, but you
kind of connect with, likecertain ones that kind of fit
your personality?

Speaker 2 (10:34):
I definitely have connected with like different
things in my animals, but Idon't think that they
necessarily like take after meor but I think that I definitely
like relate to certain aspectsof their personalities and I'm
like we have this in common.
Like Nyx is a completelydifferent dog than like Keora

(10:59):
and Ananda.
I mean Keora and Ananda werecompletely different dogs too.
They they were kind of alike inthat they were both very
independent and I wouldn't sayaloof, but definitely compared
to nixie they were aloof anddefinitely free thinkers, kind
of like like you know they willwork with you.

(11:23):
Like Ananda was a real goodpartner with me, like we would
work well together and sometimeslike I would feel like she
knows what I'm thinking, likeshe really knows what I want her
to do, and Kiora, she wasn't somuch of like I want to do this
thing or whatever.
You know, like she's a Basenji.
She was very like I'm going todo my own thing.

Speaker 1 (11:45):
Like, but she, they're kind of like the cats of
the dog world, oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (11:48):
Yeah, so much so.
And she also she loved, sheloved cats, like she was not so
much a dog's dog yeah, youremember.
Yeah, um, she wasn't so muchlike a people's dog or a dog's
dog, like like certain peopleshe would be really into, but
very much like a cat.
Yeah, she tended to really likepeople who were not so into her

(12:11):
.
Yeah, like she really likedjosh.
Yeah, and josh was like what isthis?

Speaker 1 (12:17):
thing.
No, she liked.
She apparently liked me too,when I went over to your house
that one time and I was likewhat is happening?
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (12:26):
Yeah, and like my aunt, my aunt definitely thinks
that like all dogs are likeGerman shepherds and they're
going to like sit, heal and likeall this stuff.
And like she would take suchissue with with Keora because
she would like come over andlike Keora would be not into her
right and she wouldn't want keyor to be like this, like, yeah,

(12:50):
like german shepherd or goldenretriever type dog and like yeah
, yeah, she wouldn't want tolike get dominant over keyword,
like like, first of all,dominance theory doesn't even
fucking work, it's totallydebunked.
So right, if you're followingdominance theory, fucking work,
it's totally debunked.
So right, if you're followingdominance theory, don't.
But most dogs will be like theywill tolerate, like your

(13:12):
dominance bullshit, right.
But like key or is not a dogthat you could do that with?
No, and like it would never,never work, no, with her yeah,
no and so she would be likedon't fucking come near me.
And I would be like, hey, don'tlike touch my dog, right, you
know?
Yeah, so yeah in in some ways,like I think that that kiora and

(13:36):
ananda tapped into some ofthose different you know aspects
of of my personality, like youknow like kind of withdrawn,
like I don't want people near meall the time.
Yeah, you know those kinds ofthings.

Speaker 1 (13:52):
And Nixie very much taps into my like really goofy,
spacey, like ADHD, yeah, yeah,because I was thinking about it
the other day, jack, especiallylike he's basically the dog
version of me.
I mean we both like to be inbed, right, we both want to be

(14:13):
super comfortable, pillowseverywhere.
We tend to be quiet, unless welike somebody or we're feeling
sassy and we both like sweetsyeah, we're both a little chonky
.
And we're a little shy of peopleyeah, and or I shouldn't say

(14:35):
shy, I think wary of people is abetter term and we only want to
be outside for like two secondsto do whatever we need to do
and then be back inside.
And we like cats and um, yeah,and like lenny not so much
lenny's, more of, she taps intothat like clingy aspect of me

(14:56):
that I don't really allow myselfto be, but like, if I allowed
myself to be, I'd be kind ofclingy to the people I love,
like I guess not clingy, that'snot the right word Fiercely
loyal and territorial, like to apoint where I will like yell at
you like she does yeah, youknow.
Like don't come near my friends, yeah, yeah, unless I say that

(15:21):
you can't.

Speaker 2 (15:21):
That's definitely how Kiora was too.
Yeah, Unless I say that youcan't.
That's definitely how.

Speaker 1 (15:23):
Kiora was too.
Yeah, but yeah, I was justthinking about that.
Oh, stubborn, stubborn is theother thing.
Jack and I are equally stubborn, which makes certain things
sound very difficult for us.

Speaker 2 (15:38):
Yeah, oh my God, I'm starting to feel emotional, oh
my dogs are dead.

Speaker 1 (15:42):
Oh yeah, I know, I know I get that way over cleo
too.
She's been gone for like sevenyears or something.

Speaker 2 (15:49):
Ananda's been dead 14 years now.
Yeah and it I mean they arefamily, they're family.
Yeah, I mean I get one of yourclean.

Speaker 1 (15:59):
Yeah, like I, I cry over my first dog, chiyo, who I
think we got when I was maybeone year old, that's so cute.
Maybe when I was one year oldhis name was actually
Chiyonofuji.
He was named after mygrandmother's favorite sumo
wrestler that she had a massivecrush on and he was a big golden

(16:21):
retriever and he kind of becamethe family dog because we all
moved around.
So he got moved betweenfamilies.
Yeah, but he had to be put downprobably over 25 years ago.
I'd say, yeah, but I still misshim.
Yeah, you know, he was thesweetest dog, the best dog.

Speaker 2 (16:41):
Yeah, studies show that, like we grieve, forieve
for dogs like the same as we dofor people.

Speaker 1 (16:46):
I don't doubt it, I would say for any animal.
I still feel sad about my fishthat died like 15 years ago.
You know, samson, my beta.
Oh, actually, I guess it wasmore than that.

Speaker 2 (16:58):
It has had to been 20 years ago yeah, yeah, yeah, I
miss my fishies too, too, all ofmy critters, yeah, but yeah,
like Ananda especially likeasked Jay, if I started thinking
about Ananda, then I startedcrying.
And I was also just thinkingabout Kiora.
And I was thinking about whenyou said that thing about Lenny

(17:19):
being fiercely loyal I wasthinking about how great Kiora
was to my kids.
Yeah, even though she, thoughshe like, hated kids.

Speaker 1 (17:27):
Yeah, well, she knew they were a part of you, or at
least probably sensed it alittle bit in some way.

Speaker 2 (17:32):
Yeah dogs definitely know, like when you're pregnant
and stuff like that yeah andlike I remember being so nervous
about how she was gonna be withthe kids.
Yeah, yeah, she was likecompletely great the whole time.
Oh, that's good.
Not always the case.
I mean, it's important to likewhatever like desensitize, and
like you know, of course, Inever was like let's just leave

(17:54):
the dog alone with the baby orright, you know yeah, something
like that.
But no, she was super awesomewith my kids, that's good, and
always like really, reallypatient with them, even though
she was never patient withanybody else or anything else
except for cats yeah, except forcats.
She was incredibly patient withcats.
Yeah, one time like agnes likeattacked her when she was

(18:20):
sleeping.
I don't know what she was.
She was like like fuck this dog.
And she attacked her when shewas sleeping and Keora just
stood up and was like argh andAgnes backed off, but she never
went after her or did anythinglike that, Even though she had

(18:43):
kicked the ass of dogs muchlarger than her yeah yeah,
that's.

Speaker 1 (18:48):
That's that fits me too.
I will definitely.
If I have to to protectsomebody I love, I'll go after
somebody much bigger than menixie, on the other hand, has
been beat up by my cats she's asofty, yeah, she is.

Speaker 2 (19:05):
She's a complete baby and she will like run cower in
a corner and wait for me torescue her.

Speaker 1 (19:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (19:15):
Those cats are jerks to her sometimes, yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:18):
I think Alia and Lenny are in like a competition
to see who can get me to petthem more yeah, you know,
because alia lately has becomevery affectionate.
She's usually.
It's not that she's notaffectionate, but she's, like I
said, not really a cat, a lapcat.
Right, you know she might be inthe same room as you, but

(19:38):
that's kind of about it.
But she's been snuggling withme and like she checks to make
sure lenny knows that she's onthe bed.
You know like she does it, shewill.
If lenny is there, she willraise her head to make sure
lenny's looking at her.

Speaker 2 (19:52):
You know she's like check this yeah exactly, it's
hilarious.
It's hilarious I love all youbecause she's the only one of
your pets who likes me my otherpets don't like anybody.

Speaker 1 (20:04):
They're again.
They're like me, they're likeme, they um, they're cautious, I
think very very secretly likesme yeah, don't you lenny?
I think she does too.
Yeah, yeah, they.
It takes most of my pets a verylong time to warm up.
Yeah, to people just like me, Idon't.
I generally don't warm up topeople very quickly, okay, so I

(20:25):
mean, this has already beenquite a bit, I think like 20
minutes.

Speaker 2 (20:29):
We should like get to the case we should.
I will probably cut almost allof this in.
Don't get me started on animals, I know.

Speaker 1 (20:36):
I don't even know how we got started, so, as usual,
oh wait, I guess I shouldintroduce this episode.
It is episode 22.

Speaker 2 (20:44):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (20:45):
As always, one of us will be doing a missing person,
the other will be doing the case.
This is a second parter to athree parter.
Rachel, yes, that is correct,okay.

Speaker 2 (20:58):
On Ray Rivera.
That is correct, because, oh myGod, I wrote so many things and
I didn't even get to the end ofmy notes.

Speaker 1 (21:06):
So I'm gonna Be winging it at the end.

Speaker 2 (21:09):
Yeah, again, I know you guys love it when I do it.

Speaker 1 (21:13):
Well, we haven't gotten any hate stuff, so they
must not hate it too much, or?

Speaker 2 (21:18):
they're just indifferent.

Speaker 1 (21:21):
That too, I don't know which is worse.
Okay, yes, so I'm doing themissing person, in other words,
and I'm going to do DonitaWilkerson, who went missing in
Evansville, indiana, june 21st2020.
She was born March 14th 1976.
Her hair is black.
Her height is 5'3".
She is a female 5'3".

(21:42):
She is a female.
She was born in Evansville,indiana.
Her eyes are brown.
She weighs 145 pounds, at leastat the time of her
disappearance, and she's black.
She also has multiple tattoos,including a heart on her lower

(22:02):
back, praying hands with thename Timmy on her upper right
shoulder and a cross on herupper left shoulder.
I can't say shoulder.
I always say soldier.
It's very irritating.
Okay, so it's a cross on herupper left shoulder and then in
class, like we were talking Idon't remember what I was
teaching at the time, somethingearly American history and I was

(22:22):
trying to say soldier, but Ikept saying shoulder, like what
is what?
Why, why?
I was a jerk.
You know, I went to journalismschool before this and I almost
went into like literature for athing and I, you know, like I
should be more articulate.
I can't.
It's just a brain thing.
Maybe I I'm going to blame iton being 40 because, like, I've

(22:46):
lost my ability to speak.
Okay, anyway, so it was DonitaWilkerson.
I will give a few more details,plus the number you can call
after Rachel does her thing.

Speaker 2 (22:59):
Okay, awesome.
Hopefully you will not forget,like I did Well.

Speaker 1 (23:04):
I've forgotten myself a few times, so no worries.

Speaker 2 (23:06):
Well, hopefully, just yeah.

Speaker 1 (23:09):
All right.

Speaker 2 (23:10):
So we left in the last part.
We had just like learned abunch of basically background
information about Ray andAllison, about Porter Stansberry
and his business.

Speaker 1 (23:27):
And so wait, just really briefly, in case people
didn't listen to the first one.
Ray Rivera is the person we'retalking about.
Allison is his wife, yes, andPorter was his friend slash,
former employer.
Former employer.

Speaker 2 (23:43):
Okay, yeah, he was his friend since like high
school Former employer.
Yeah, he was his friend sincehigh school.
They went to high schooltogether, they played water polo
together, they were real goodfriends.
He went to his wedding.
They even lived together for ashort time and he basically knew
that Ray needed a job.
Ray needed a job, he neededfinancial advisors who were not

(24:07):
real financial advisors,allegedly and so he basically
offered Ray this pretty sweetjob doing this newsletter called
the Rebound Report, where Raywould basically try to predict
the stocks that had dropped andthat he thought were going to

(24:31):
rebound, which ended up and likespike again, which ended up
being pretty fucking stressfulfor him because he didn't know
anything about finances and andhe didn't feel like he was
qualified to do it and he didn'twant to scam people.
Basically, yeah.

(24:52):
And so, basically, he had gottenout of that job and thanks to
the money though he had gottenfrom it, the money though he had
gotten from it, then he wasable, and along with like a
fifteen thousand dollar like tabon alice and his wife's credit
card company they were creditcard company, jesus, you know

(25:15):
I'm talking about on her creditcard yeah, they were able to
fund the stuff that ray neededto start his own little
production videographer companyand so he was still working for
like Porter kind of and Porter'slike.
So the company Porter worked forwas like a subsidiary of this

(25:38):
bigger company called Agora, andbasically they're all into rich
people, shenanigans, yeah andum, and so he had been freelance
hired by them a number of timesto like video their conferences
and stuff like that, includingat the time of his uh death that

(26:00):
he he had done like a a videoof the conference for the Oxford
Club, which was anothersubsidiary of Agora.
That was basically for taxevasion, yeah, and so he had
even well, I guess we'll get tothat but he was working on

(26:25):
editing that video to put ittogether and send out the final
product, and he had frontedactually quite a lot of money to
put that together somethinglike $70,000.
But he was going to get it allback and then some, but then he

(26:45):
passed away and actually it'sreally shitty, because poor
allison ended up with a bill forall of that, yeah, and it took
her like 10 years or somethingto pay it off.

Speaker 1 (26:59):
Yeah don't get into debt and get married which to me
that's your spouse'sresponsibility, when that was
another thing that I was like.

Speaker 2 (27:07):
I was like, because, like porter's supposed to be his
good buddy, I'm like youcouldn't take care of that,
porter, right?
yeah, but okay yeah so let's getinto it.
Yeah, so on the morning morning, if I can talk, then we can get
into it.
On the morning of May 16th 2006, allison Rivera left early in

(27:29):
the morning for a business tripin Richmond, virginia.
So Ray carried her suitcase outto the car and kissed her
goodbye.
So no one would as one wouldkind of expect any loving
husband to do when seeing hiswife off on a trip.
So there's nothing inherent inthat that would ring any alarm
bells.

(27:49):
They gave each other theirgoodbyes, said I love you, and
then Allison took off.
So she was on the road and thenstraight from the road into some
work, meetings and stuff,before she finally checked into
her hotel at 6 30 in the evening, at which point she gave Ray a

(28:10):
call to check in on him and atthat time Ray didn't pick up.
So unfortunately, as you mayhave guessed, when her and Ray
kiss each other goodbye, thatwould be the last time that she
would ever see him again.
Now the fact that Ray didn'tanswer the phone does strike
Allison as a bit odd, but she'sa pretty down-to-earth person,

(28:33):
she doesn't panic easily and shefigures Ray's probably gone out
with some friends or something.
And I also think about the factthat this is 2006.
In 2006, I may have a cellphone, and I think, for those of
us who did, we were all kind ofstill adjusting to the paradigm
shift of having anybodyavailable at the touch of your

(28:53):
little flip phone, and so Icould definitely see Allison not
being alarmed from a missedcall or two, because we were all
just not as accustomed as weare now to immediate
communication back and forth.

Speaker 1 (29:07):
Yeah, absolutely I think we panicked less.
Yeah, definitely absolutely.

Speaker 2 (29:14):
I remember when I was a kid my dad had like a pager.
When we have a home phone,right and he would get paged by
work, and then he would have towalk half a mile to the payphone
at the grocery store to callhis work, to even find out what
they wanted.

Speaker 1 (29:29):
So yeah, well, we had a home phone, but even then,
yeah, you, when you left home,you didn't have a phone.
Yep, yeah, and so if somebodywas late or whatever, you just
kind of let it go for a whileuntil it was unbelievable we did
get a phone shortly after that.

Speaker 2 (29:47):
But but yeah, there was a period in which I recall
that happening.
Yeah, I remember one of thedays my dad was sick and my mom
walked down to the grocery storeto call his work and tell them
that he was sick and he wouldn'tbe in.
And they were like no, he hasto call directly.
So then he had to walk his sickass down to the grocery store

(30:11):
to call them and tell them thathe wasn't going to be in.
How awful is that?
That is awful, okay.
So, however, by around 9.30,when Allison still isn't able to
get in touch with Ray, shecalls her co-worker who is
staying with them uh, there, aslike a temporary housemate.

(30:32):
So that seems like a little bitof a weird situation.
I'm not sure exactly what thesituation is, but I'm guessing
like kind of a boardingsituation, because from what it
seems like, even though she wasliving with him, or for a short
time, it didn't seem like shehad a whole lot of direct
interaction with Ray, becausenever in this time did he like

(30:56):
like, talk to her and be likehey, I'm doing this, I'm doing
that, or anything like that.
The housemate and coworker ofAllison, claudia tells Allison
that Ray isn't home and that afew hours prior he had taken a
phone call from his office andthen left the house abruptly.
Claudia goes on to explain theslightly unusual circumstances

(31:20):
of the call of the call.
Ray had been working in hisoffice, which shared a wall with
the room Claudia was staying inabout an hour before he had
gotten up for a snack Around5.30 to 6.30, the Unsolved

(31:42):
Mysteries episode said like 6.30.
The Makita Broadman book said5.30.
So just somewhere in thatwindow Ray received a call and,
according to Claudia's report,ray listened to the person on
the line for a few secondsbefore he declared oh shit, and
then he ran out of the house.

(32:02):
A minute or two later, or maybe30 seconds, he returned as if
he had forgotten something, andthen he immediately left again.
So he was reported to have beenwearing a zip-up shirt, shorts
and flip-flops.
I've seen that that was whatthey said in the Netflix episode

(32:24):
.
That was what they said in thenetflix episode.
That was what they said inmultiple sources.
However, makita broughtman'sbook reported that he was
wearing like gray pants or green.
Sorry, not gray pants, greenpants I'm not wait.
Grain or gray green green,that's okay I said gray
initially, but I meant greengreen I'm not sure, like where

(32:44):
she's getting her informationversus where other people are
getting their information.
Yeah, so, regardless of whetherit was green pants, I assume
like sweats, because, like, whatkind of pants are green?
Right, and now I'm at a lossfor words.

Speaker 1 (32:58):
Or shorts.

Speaker 2 (33:00):
The point is he was wearing like comfy clothes,
house clothes, yeah, and hedidn't bother getting dressed.
And when he left he tookAllison's car, a Mitsubishi
Montero, which is a type of SUV,and the circumstance of that
decision is something that Iwondered about, but I couldn't

(33:21):
really find any information orwhether that was something that
was investigated.
Like, did he just take it outof like necessity, because, like
she had his car?
Did he take it because maybe hethought it wouldn't be
recognizable, versus he hethought maybe his car would be?
Was it just a random whim?

(33:43):
Like it would help to know ifallison was driving his car or
if she was driving like a rentalcar?

Speaker 1 (33:52):
yeah, um, or was it in the shop?

Speaker 2 (33:55):
maybe yeah, or yeah, yeah, any of that information
would be helpful to know, likewas this a decision that was on,
or was it just like this car ishere, I'm taking this car?
So Allison is still feeling atthis point that everything is
probably fine, that maybe Rayhad gone out drinking with some

(34:17):
of his old work buddies, as hewas known to do from time to
time, and maybe he had turnedoff his phone or forgotten to
charge it and some.
Maybe he wasn't able to callher or he forgot he was drunk
and forgot to call her, and asthe evening wore on, she thought
maybe he had even stayed overat a friend's house so he

(34:43):
wouldn't have to drive homedrunk, which people used to do
all the time.
For you, babies, before theproliferation of Uber slash Lyft
, I recently saw an article and,to be fair, I didn't click on
it, but anyways, in the future,uber slash Lyft might be able to
deny passengers rides on thebasis of their inebriation,

(35:08):
which, to me, I was like.
Doesn't that defeat a lot ofthe purpose and benefit of the
service?

Speaker 1 (35:14):
Right.

Speaker 2 (35:14):
And I imagine that it would also be a major loss of
business for drivers.
So while she was a bitunsettled by her inability to
contact Ray, she is still notreally panicking yet and she
doesn't startle easily.
A lot of podcasts and articlesand in the Unsolved Mystery

(35:36):
episodes were like oh my god,ray and Allison were newlyweds.
They're only six months intotheir marriage, so they called
each other all the time.
However, I wanted to point outthat they have been together
since like 2000 and they've beenliving together for like the
past like two, three years.
So it's not like they're likeoh my god, first blush of our

(35:59):
relationship like.
But also like calling andcontacting your spouse, like
when you're away on a trip, islike a completely fucking normal
thing to do.
Yeah, like I could not imaginegoing a day or even half a day,
like you know, withoutcontacting my spouse.
When we went to our mysteryfriend unnamed friend's wedding,

(36:24):
like how often was I talking tomy spouse?
Like all the time right.
Right Like it was, it wasconstant.

Speaker 1 (36:32):
It was constant.

Speaker 2 (36:34):
Like you cannot, and like we've been married for 10
years together for 12 years, soit's, it's not something that is
just a newlywed thing, in myopinion.
Right when Allison reallystarts to worry, however, is
when she wakes up and Ray hasstill not returned any of her

(36:57):
calls, or and he's still notpicking up the phone.
So she calls back her houseguest, claudia, to see if Ray is
home or has been home, and whenClaudia reports again that Ray
has not been home all night,that's when Allison finally sets
in that something is reallywrong.

(37:18):
So she immediately takes stepsto cut her business trip short
and she starts driving home fromRichmond.
On the way home, allison callsup as many of Ray's friends,
families and co-workers as shecan get a hold of.
So she's asking if anyone'sseen him, spoken to him, knows

(37:38):
someone who has, but nobody hasseen or heard from him in like
the last two days.
When Allison gets back to thehouse, it seems really clear
that Ray just rushed out with nopreparation, planning or
forethought at all.
The lights are still on in hisoffice, in the kitchen and in

(38:00):
their bedroom.
His computer is still turned on.
His toothbrush is still in itsplace, which tells Allison that
he definitely didn't plan onstaying over at a friend's house
.
In the kitchen he left an opensoda and a half bag of chips.
Well, one source said a soda,one source said a can of seltzer

(38:20):
, like potato potato, and heeven left his retainer on the
table.
So obviously something is off.
Allison gathers together acontingency of raised friends
and family around her and evenlike a lot of his, his friends
and family like fly in fromdifferent places.

(38:43):
Like his mom comes from likePuerto Rico, his brother is
coming in from, like Florida.
Like her parents come in fromColorado.
So like right away, likeassemble the troops.
They're really on it, yeah,because this is really out of
character for him.
And so they get to work rightaway trying to locate ray.

(39:06):
All that day on tuesday, may 17,2006, ray and alice's family
spend spend it canvassing theneighborhood.
Ray's favorite places they callhospitals, morgues and funeral
homes, looking for any manmatching Ray's description.
They also made missing personposters and taped them up

(39:28):
everywhere they could.
In Makita Brotman's book, sherecalled seeing one near the
Belvedere where she lived byWednesday, may 18th 2006,.
I was like 2016,.
Nope.
Allison filed a missing personsreport with the Baltimore Police
Department around 3 pm in theafternoon when taking the report

(39:50):
, the police asked Allison andRay's family the usual types of
questions about his mentalhealth and like his mental state
.
What's the difference?
They're very repetitive, sorry.
All of them report that Ray waslike a happy guy.
He was stable, he had a lot ofplans for building a family with

(40:14):
Allison for their future andhis personal future with his
production company, with hisscreenplay.
He was very ambitious and therewas a lot of things that he
wanted to do and he just had noindication of being depressed or
anything like that Like hereally seemed like he was

(40:35):
looking forward to the future.
Ray's big brother, angel, alsoreported that it was very out of
character for Ray to just takeoff somewhere and not to tell
anyone where he was going orwhat he was doing.
Ray's good friend, porterStansbury, who just happened to
be out of town on an employeeretreat with all of his

(40:57):
employees, returned to town atthat point and offered a $1,000
reward for information leadingto finding Ray.
At the time, porter said to theBaltimore Sun quote he's a
happy guy.
He and his wife just booked atrip to New Mexico in a few

(41:17):
weeks.
That's true they had.
It is not.
This is not a man who wanted toleave.
I have got to find my friend.
I can't imagine my life withouthim.
End quote.

Speaker 1 (41:28):
Oh.

Speaker 2 (41:29):
Yeah, it's totally true.
They had a trip to New Mexicobooked for like two weeks and
two weeks in the future fromwhen he disappeared, so New
Mexico cameo.
However, allison does report tothe police that there have been
some strange incidentshappening to and around Ray and

(41:49):
Allison recently and that Rayhas been acting a bit nervous
and on edge in recent days.
He has been more concernedabout her safety than usual and
he had wanted to accompany herwhenever possible.
It was her habit to go joggingin the mornings at a nearby
track and Ray started insistingon going with her and sitting

(42:13):
back in the car where he couldkeep an eye on her while she ran
or sitting in the bleachers andreading.
And it seemed as though hissuspicions were not entirely
unfounded, because Allisonreported that one morning, while
jogging, a man that she didn'trecognize started rapidly
approaching her on the track andwhen she saw this guy she froze

(42:33):
and was looking at himapproaching her.
When Ray burst out of the carthat where he had been watching
and ran toward them, and whenthe man saw that, he switched
directions and rapidly walkedaway.
I don't know about you, butthat would freak me out.
Yeah, and I don't think it iscompletely strange for Ray to

(42:55):
worry about Allison runningalone, whether or not there were
suspicious circumstances or not, like Baltimore is not super
known as like the safest placeor not.
Like Baltimore is not superknown as like the safest place,
and so I don't think that'sreally an odd thing, but anyway,
but it does seem to have beenout of character for him and

(43:17):
like a recent concern.
Basically, another strangeoccurrence was that the Rivera's
home alarm system was triggeredfor the two nights in a row
right before his disappearance,and Allison reported the alarm
had never been triggered in thetwo years prior to his

(43:40):
disappearance, that they hadlived in the house and it never
happened since.
And then I put some notesbecause some, some sources that
said one consecutive night, butI remember two nights, and then
I found the other sources thatsaid two nights, uh, so
basically, yes, it was on the15th and the 16th, both around 1

(44:03):
am in the morning.
Basically so the alarm botharound 1 am in the morning,
basically.
So the alarm was triggered at 1am on the nights of May 15th
and 16th, directly before Raydisappeared.
On May 15th, at 1 am, allisonwas awakened by the sound of
their alarm going off and shecame out of the bedroom to find
Ray coming out of his officewhere he had been up late

(44:26):
working holding a baseball bat.
And, according to Allison, raywas not a man who startled
easily.
He was a tall man, broadshoulders, in athletic shape,
and he had what Allison calledLatino machismo.
So, even though having yourhome alarm system go off is an
incredibly alarming event, shesaid that the amount of fear

(44:49):
that he displayed in that momentwas very much out of character
for him.
She said that he had a look ofabsolute terror on his face and
when the police showed up,however, they attributed the
alarm going off to rambunctioussquirrels.

Speaker 1 (45:11):
Those rambunctious squirrels.

Speaker 2 (45:13):
However, allison reported in a 2009 article that
this alarm system was onlytriggered by something trying to
force a door or a window, whicha squirrel is definitely not
large enough to do.
And not only that, but the exactsame thing happened again 24

(45:35):
hours later.
Their alarm went off againaround 1 am on May 16th, and
while I couldn't findinformation about whether or not
the police came out a secondtime or what they had to say,
allison reported that it hadlooked as though someone had
tried to force their masterbedroom window.
Now, recall that this secondincident was just hours before

(45:59):
Allison left on her work trip,from which she would never see
her husband again, and left onher work trip, from which she
would never see her husbandagain.
And then I have a little rantabout the fucking squirrel thing
, because I wanted to mentionthat, while many animals are
nocturnal or crepuscular,squirrels are pretty much firmly

(46:23):
diurnal, with the exception offlying squirrels, which I'm
pretty sure there aren't anyfucking flying squirrels in
Baltimore.
So there is about a 0% chancethat a squirrel tried to break
into the Rivera's master bedroomat 1 am in the morning, and I
said it could have possibly beena raccoon.
That's what I was thinking, yeahand a raccoon would be strong

(46:45):
and clever enough to force awindow that wasn't super firmly
installed.
However, unless they had likefood lying around cat food or
something really enticing to araccoon, there would be much
easier ways for a raccoon toseek food, like in garbage cans
People put out food for feralcats or in the park.

(47:06):
There's lots of trash and oreven less secure housing options
.
And they don't have any kids,they don't have any pets, and so
it seems very unlikely thatthere would be a lot of
enticements for a raccoon tobreak in.
And even if a raccoon had comeby on night one and attempted to

(47:28):
break in, I find it veryunlikely that it would make a
second attempt after having thevery negative reinforcement
association of this shriekingalarm with no positive gain of
any kind of beneficial payout.
So I think that we can rule outan animal, a non-human animal.

(47:49):
Yes, absolutely Good point, andI also did a little rant.
I said these officers do notknow anything about animals.
Then I was talking about justwent on a little tangent about
how cops kill a bunch of dogsevery year and how they do like

(48:10):
10,000 dogs every year accordingto the Department of Justice,
and part of that is because alot of cops unless they're like
those who work directly withanimals, like Mount Police, or
cops who canine units, aren'tyou know, they're just not,
they're not trained for that andthey're not familiar with yeah,

(48:30):
they should definitely betrained for that Absolutely so.
Apparently, the police did dustfor fingerprints at the window
and they didn't find anything.
However, the absence of thatevidence is not confirmation of
an alternate, equally unprovenand physically and behaviorally

(48:53):
unlikely explanation, and likeyou could just fucking put on
gloves or whatever.

Speaker 1 (48:57):
Yeah, or sometimes like there just aren't
fingerprints unlikelyexplanation.

Speaker 2 (48:58):
And like you could just fucking put on gloves or
whatever, like, or sometimes,like there just aren't
fingerprints, like, sometimesthe conditions are just not
right for fingerprints, sothere's, so there's so many
reasons why there wouldn't befingerprints.
Yeah, yeah, gloves are a thing.
They are them yeah, or peoplebreaking in for other reasons,
which we'll get into in episodethree.

(49:20):
Okay, so when allison reallystarts to worry is oh, did I?
I?
I went back, I'm so sorry, mything jumped up, I think.
So basically, some reallystrange happenings went down
right before Ray's disappearanceand at this point on Wednesday,
the police have gotten involved.

(49:42):
Uh, porter Stansberry has gotteninvolved with his reward, uh,
and all of that and like hisemployees are helping with the
search.
And Allison feels prettysupported.
She trusts Porter.
He's been a really good friendto Ray since high school.
They've worked together, all ofthese things.
Allison probably knows thatPorter has some social leverage

(50:06):
as well because of his businessties and she is hoping that he
can really get something done tohelp find Ray.
And of course, she has herfamily and Ray's family really
supporting her.
They really seem like atight-knit family.
But at that moment the leadshave been thin.
Ray has not used his phone.

(50:26):
He hasn't used his credit cards.
He only had taken $20 of cashwith him, so if he had used it,
it wouldn't have taken him far.
He had not made any ATMwithdrawals.
As Makita Brotman pointed out inher book, after the first 24
hours, the chance of finding amissing person alive drops

(50:48):
dramatically, and the fact thathe isn't using his phone or
money is not a great sign.
So the police, along with Ray'sfamily, friends, co-workers and
neighbors, are all hitting thestreets looking for Ray.
And at this point everyone isreally worried and scared of
when, if and how they are goingto find Ray.

(51:11):
And it isn't until May 22nd,which is six days after Ray had
gone missing, that Allison'sparents are driving on the Mount
Vernon neighborhood, which isan area that had been canvassed
before, and on the 100th blockof St Paul Street they spot

(51:31):
Allison's black MitsubishiMontero.
I swear I sound like a carcommercial right now, but I
don't even think Mitsubishi isin business anymore.
I haven't seen one in ages.

Speaker 1 (51:43):
I will look it up.
You're right, I haven't evenheard Mitsubishi.

Speaker 2 (51:47):
Right.

Speaker 1 (51:48):
They're still in business.
2025.
Mitsubishi Outlander Plug-inhybrid $40,445.

Speaker 2 (52:01):
Holy shit.
Yeah, that's more money than Imake.
Maybe that's why we haven'theard about it.
So the car was found parked ina lot behind the building near
the Belvedere's parking garageentrance.
It's parked kind of askew, asif someone parked it in a hurry,
and it has a parking ticketaffixed to the windshield.
So here's where things get alittle dicey again, because

(52:28):
again I have two differentfucking accounts of what
happened.
One account says that,according to the parking lot
attendant, the car had not beenthere when he left the previous
night at 6 pm.
So according to that source,the parking lot attendant gave
testimony the car was not thereon May 21st at 6 pm, but in the

(52:52):
morning it was there and thatwas when the attendant ticketed
the vehicle.
If that testimony is accurate,it explains why the car was not
found in previous sweeps of theneighborhood and it compels a
narrative, right.
However, a different sourcereported that the ticket was

(53:13):
dated to May 17th, which is theday after Ray went missing.
So it's like which source isaccurate, right?
It makes a big difference andit makes it really hard to
gather enough substantiveevidence to figure out, like
clues of what happened whensomebody is saying one thing and

(53:34):
another person is sayinganother thing.
Like which thing is the truth?
So there are definitely a lotof inconsistencies in
information from source tosource, which can make it more
difficult to pinpoint whathappened.
This neighborhood is interestingbecause it has two locations
that are of relevance to RayRivera.

(53:55):
One of them, of course, is theBelfadir and the other one is
the headquarters of AgoraFinancial, which, you may recall
from our previous episode, isthe parent company of Porter
Stansberry's subsidiary company,pirate Investors LLC.
However, although the car waslocated, according to police,

(54:17):
there is nothing of evidentiaryimportance in the vehicle that
might indicate where Ray was orwhat happened to him, like none
of his effects were found insidethe car and there was nothing
pointing towards his whereabouts, yeah, however, one thing that
finding the car did was narrowdown the perimeter of the search

(54:37):
to the area in which the carwas found.
So this basically ended upbeing the key to finding Ray,
because two days after the carwas found, on the 24th, some
former co-workers of Ray'semployees of Agora decided to

(55:00):
climb to the top of the parkinggarage and to have a look around
, and when they went up thereand looked around, they spotted
something odd on a lower roof.
It was a flip-flop and a smallroundish hole in the roof which
you fed me too much food, sorrywhich Makita Brotman described

(55:23):
in her book as larger than aFrisbee and smaller than a hula
hoop, which I was like, damnthese American measurements,
because that's a big range.
That is a big range.
That is a big range.
I'm like the whole looks smallfrom the pictures I've seen, but
I'm like I want to know exactlywhat size it is.

Speaker 1 (55:44):
However, since Because if it is like hula hoop
size, then a human could fitthrough it Smaller than a hula
hoop.

Speaker 2 (55:50):
Yeah, but how much smaller.
We don't know Bigger than afrisbee, particularly if he was
slim.
Well see, and the thing is thatI'm not sure that Makita knows
either.
Yeah, because she's going fromher memory, everybody's going
from their memory because,rather than actually Nobody took
actual measurements, no.
No, and that's another thing.

(56:11):
Like there's no, or there is asubstantial lack of case
information available and itseems as though they didn't take
a lot of information, which iswhat we're gonna get into wait.

Speaker 1 (56:27):
Can I just ask?
Maybe you'll get into it, butcan I just ask did she do a
follow request to get that, oris?

Speaker 2 (56:34):
she just, yes, yes, she did a bunch of fucking
requests and and calls andpaperwork and like she has a
whole chapter on how, like shetried to like chase down, like
the police report, all right,and didn't get it.

Speaker 1 (56:52):
I found another she didn't get the police report.
That's at least that's likebasic.

Speaker 2 (56:58):
All she was able to get was like a two-page summary
which was edited from the FBIout of their entire report yeah,
they do that quite a bit andbasically that just outlined the

(57:21):
SEC lawsuit against PorterStansberry's company, and so it
didn't really give her anything.
Yeah laws are about freedom of,not freedom of press uh, about

(57:45):
what police can and cannot giveyou.
There's another, there's like apodcast, which is is gonna be
more sourced in the next episode, but it's done by some
journalists and they said thatthey did have the police report
and, however, they said thatthere is very little information
in it as well, and also in theautopsy report.

Speaker 1 (58:09):
That happens sometimes when I worked for that
defense attorney.
Sometimes they'd be so detailed, it'd be like 15 pages long,
and then sometimes it's aparagraph, yeah, and it's like
did you even go like what?
I have your body cam footage.

Speaker 2 (58:27):
even I know it's more than a paragraph well, and
based on what makita has saidabout her observations and what
other people are saying, itreally didn't seem like the
police took this crime more as acrime, rather just as a suicide
and it didn't even seem as ifthey treated it with enough

(58:53):
reverence to what a suicideshould be.
To be honest, like it seemedlike they were very blasé.

Speaker 1 (59:03):
I wonder what the crime rate was at that point in
time.

Speaker 2 (59:05):
Very high.
That was another thing.
It's very high, and I guessBaltimore had a new mayor at the
time who had made promises toreduce the homicide rate, and so
they also had incentives toquickly label things as suicides
if they could, and Ray wouldhave been somebody who would

(59:29):
have been considered somewhat ofa society figure due to his
association with Porter Right.
Due to his association withPorter Right, and so that's one
thing that has come up is thatthey may have been incentivized
to really quickly close it as asuicide so that it wouldn't look

(59:49):
like this potential societyfigure has been murdered.
Yeah, but yeah, I guess theyhave like 40 homicide detectives
but they have like an insane orat that time I'm not sure now
but yeah but at that time theyhad a really really high.

Speaker 1 (01:00:08):
I remember I mean in the 90s, there was that book um
homicide life on the streets andthen it was turned into a show,
which is an amazing show if youhaven't watched it, but maybe a
little dated, yeah, um, yeah,they had like the super high
rate and yeah, and I don't thinkthat they were exaggerating in
the book or in the show, it wasa lot, yeah, yeah, there was

(01:00:32):
some kind of figure of like, Ithink this, many this, and I was
like whoa, but like I don'tremember.

Speaker 2 (01:00:39):
Like I have to go back and listen to that.

Speaker 1 (01:00:41):
I wonder if it was sorry.
I was just thinking like maybeat the time it could be
equivalent to like Chicago wassome years ago yeah, yeah,
something like that.

Speaker 2 (01:00:53):
It was pretty bad, yeah, and, and most of those
cases were pretty cut and dry,but it's like these are
overworked people.
And so they're probably not like.
Most of them are probably notlike.
Let's get into this potentiallyquagmire of a case, right, yeah
?
So when the cops arrived, theywent and spoke to the manager of

(01:01:18):
the Belvedere, who was a mannamed Gary Shivers.
He was a veteran employee ofthe building and he had been
working there for the past 20years at the time, and they
needed him to unlock the door ofthis building, which I've seen
variously described as aconference room, a chapel room
and a pool and tennis area.

(01:01:40):
Makita Brotman reported that ithad been a pool and tennis area,
but it was not used for thatpurpose anymore.
Whether there was still a poolthere I'm not sure, but the few
images of the inside of thebuilding I could find, it seemed
like it was more like aconference space with like a
cheap red carpet than like a gymtype area.

(01:02:01):
I could see it being like achapel type of you know like.
Have you seen those chapelswith like that cheap red carpet?
It looked like that.
Yeah, I remember.
What I can say with morecertainty is that across from
this area there was a cateringcompany and that catering
company had been complainingabout a foul smell from the

(01:02:22):
building for the past few days.
So they figured that some kindof animal had gotten trapped in
the walls and died, which wouldbe horrific enough, but I can't
imagine how those people feltwhen they learned what actually
was the truth.
When manager Gary Shiversopened the door to that room, he

(01:02:47):
was unfortunately hit with theoverwhelming stench of
decomposition and he could seethat the wall in front of him
appeared to have blood on it andhe could see Ray's slumped body
lying on the floor next to thewall.
He was reportedly lying face up, which I found unusual, and

(01:03:07):
according to Makita Brotman'sbook, poor Gary immediately had
to leave and phoned a friend tomeet him at a nearby bar for a
stiff drink yeah, I imagine wedon't blame you, gary, and I
wrote they don't pay you enoughfor this shit.
So poor's ray bought.

(01:03:28):
Ray's body was not in greatshape.
He was lying prone with hisfeet facing the door.
His body was battered andpretty decomposed at this point
he had been lying in what I canonly assume was a
non-air-conditioned room, sinceit was not being used in late

(01:03:49):
spring for a week, and we dolearn that later.
Yes, he based on the rate ofdecomposition and other factors.
Then they determined he hadpretty much been deceased for
most of the entire time.
So the remains of that snackthat he had were still in his

(01:04:14):
stomach.
So that indicates that he diedwithin like three hours of
leaving his house on the 16thand the rate of decomposition
was found to be consistent withapproximately the amount of time
he had been missing.
He was still wearing the clothesthat he had left the house in,

(01:04:34):
minus the flip-flops which werefound on the roof of the
conference slash pool building.
The flip-flops are aninteresting case and the
condition that they were foundin is interesting and, I think,
one of the more intriguing andincongruent pieces of evidence
in the case which we can talkabout that more in episode three

(01:04:56):
, but they were found to havesignificant drag marks on them
on both the bottom and the sides, and one of the shoes I'm not
sure which, but I want to sayit's the left, because the left
side of his body had a lot moreinjuries than the right had been
ripped apart.
The top thong portion wasripped out of the sole and the

(01:05:19):
sole had been bent under double.
His sunglasses and his phonewere also found on the roof, but
these were pretty muchundamaged.
His phone was slightly cracked,but it was fully functional,
and his glasses were undamaged.
Found still in Ray's pocket washis ID, his credit card and a
penny with a heart cut out of it, which was a gift for Ray that

(01:05:43):
Allison had brought back afterone of her business trips.
When she gave it to him, shetold him that whenever you need
me, just hold this penny andyou'll know that I'm close.
Typically Ray kept the penny ina small bowl on his dresser,
but he did have it with him onthe time of his death, so some
people have speculated that thiswas the reason that Ray ran

(01:06:04):
back into the house, but ofcourse we'll never know.
One thing that Ray did not havewith him was his money clip
that he carried everywhere hewent.
So, if you recall, ray was acash man.
He strongly preferred to usecash money rather than a card
because he was bad with money,and so cash is like much more

(01:06:25):
concrete than imaginary plasticmoney that everybody uses now,
which is why we all spend morethan we should and Allison had
given him a silver money clipengraved with his initials as a
wedding gift.
He carried it everywhere hewent and, according to Allison,

(01:06:47):
the money clip was not found onor near Ray or in his home, and
its location still remains amystery to this day.
In her book, makita Brotmanrecalled watching the police
officers coming and going andseeing them up on the roof of
the conference building.
She reported that the officershandled race effects with their

(01:07:09):
bare hands and that one of themtossed race shoes down to
another officer.
She did not see them bag upanything into an evidence bag or
take pictures of the crimescene.
She reports that the cops werejoking, laughing and acting very
casually.
No one took pictures of theevidence on the roof and, as far

(01:07:29):
as additional reports seemed tocorroborate, no pictures or
diagrams of the scene were taken.
No pictures or diagrams of thescene were taken A few days
after Ray's body was removed.
The room was simply opened toair out and residents of the
building or employees of thecompanies leasing the building
could just come and go insidethe building.
Makita herself reported goinginside the building and said

(01:07:54):
that the door was propped openwith no crime scene tape or any
other barriers to preventcurious residents from coming
and going, and she reported thatthe only remains of Ray were a
lingering odor although she saidit didn't bother her as much as
it did some of her neighbors Astain on the carpet, some blood

(01:08:17):
left on the wall and somemaggots.
So it seems that there wasn'teven, at least at that point, a
proper crime scene cleanup orthose people who come and like
clean up everything after likethere's been like a death.
You know what I'm talking about.
Yeah, seemed like that hadn'thappened, although in her book

(01:08:38):
she talks about the fact thatsometimes like like cheaper
hotels although the belvederewasn't like a hotel hotel
because it wasn't like open tothe public anymore but she talks
about how, like some likecheaper hotels or smaller hotels
, will like leave it to the likethe housekeeping staff to like
clean up that stuff, which islike.

(01:09:02):
I don't even think that's legaland it's definitely not safe.
Like I'm pretty sure like youhave to have like special
training or licensing to do thatkind of thing, because it's not
safe to like just handle likebodily fluids and stuff like
that.
Like you get really sick, youcould expose yourself to disease

(01:09:25):
and all kinds of things, yeah.
So if you're a hotel owner notthat any hotel owners are
listening to our podcast, yeah,but you better not be doing that
to your staff.
So Michael Baer, who was thelead detective assigned to the
case, reported that he felt thescene of the things lying around

(01:09:46):
the hole, like the glasses andthe phone were just lying quite
close to the hole, just kind ofneatly, he said it looked staged
.
Now, according to sources thosesources this could be possible
for these things to fly out ofhis pocket while he was falling

(01:10:09):
and to have a gentle landing.
However, I did want to notethat the only possible entry
method would have been feetfirst and if he was upright, it
seems less likely that histhings would have come out of
his pocket.
Also, his credit cards, his IDand the penny didn't come out of
his pocket, so why would thephone and the sunglasses come

(01:10:35):
out of his pocket and not thoselittle lighter things come out.

Speaker 1 (01:10:39):
Are we sure he had them in his pocket and he wasn't
holding them?

Speaker 2 (01:10:42):
No, he could have also, yeah, maybe been holding
them and then just like yeah,that is another possibility.

Speaker 1 (01:10:51):
I just want to say you didn't describe what you
just showed me, oh sorry, likehe just dropped them before he
jumped, or let go of them whenhe was like falling, like yeah,
like let go of them.

Speaker 2 (01:11:04):
Like he would have had to probably let go of them,
like shortly before he landed inorder for them to not be
damaged.
Yeah, so, yeah, so I guess thatis accurate according, although
to me, like the pocket thing,again, like I said, makes more
sense because it's flying up outof the pocket than it's going

(01:11:28):
up in an updraft, right.

Speaker 1 (01:11:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:11:30):
And therefore it's slowing its rate of velocity,
whereas if he's just letting goof it, isn't it remaining
traveling at the same velocitythat he's traveling?
You're asking me sciencehowever, I know that smaller
things are less prone to bedamaged than larger things.

Speaker 1 (01:11:49):
Yeah, so that may be part of it, but still, it's like
plus, I feel like those oldcell phones were fairly
indestructible, but the highpoint was like 113 feet.

Speaker 2 (01:12:01):
That's a pretty fucking far way to fall and not
be damaged, even anindestructible phone.

Speaker 1 (01:12:07):
Right, that's true.
That's true.
My iPhone got severely damaged,just falling from my pocket the
first time I had an iPhone.
Yeah, oh my God, those earlyiPhones were so fucking fragile.
They sure were severely damagedjust falling from my pocket the
first time I had.

Speaker 2 (01:12:17):
Yeah, yeah, oh my god , those early iphones were so
fucking fragile sure were.
I remember like seeing a videoabout somebody like waiting in
line for one of those earlymodels and they got it and like
two seconds after they got it,they fucking dropped it and it
broke.
Wow, how devastating.
Yeah, I'm glad those days areover.

(01:12:37):
I have an iphone now and and Ihad a pretty bad slip, like a
month ago, when I got caught inthat torrential rain and I
slipped on some very slimyconcrete and like it had one of
those like ledges.
You know what I mean yeah, and Islipped, and you know what I
mean, and I slipped and fell onmy ass very gracefully, and I

(01:13:00):
dropped my phone in some graveland it did sustain a very small
crack, yeah, but it's fine, yeah.
So yay for newer iPhones.
Yes, newer iPhone, yeah, that'swhat I was saying.
Like there's a lot of thingsthat are within the realm of

(01:13:25):
possibility, but just like verythey're plausible, but like very
unlikely, you know, and likewhat I was saying to you earlier
, which our listeners didn'thave the benefit of's true,
because, like, if, often, if, ifwriters were to write about

(01:14:00):
some of the weird shit thathappens in reality, yeah, they
wouldn't believe it, exactly.
Yeah, because, you know, in auniverse of like infinite
numbers of possibilities, somany variables can occur, yeah,

(01:14:20):
numbers of possibilities, somany variables can occur, yeah.
And so to think of like one ortwo implausible things happening
, like it's like, yeah, thatcould happen absolutely.
But sometimes, when all theseimplausible things start to like
add up and pile up, that's whensometimes you go, hmm, did that
happen?
And like, sure, maybe it could,and like maybe, but like that's

(01:14:45):
, that's where that mysterycomes in, right, yeah, I still
definitely think that, like asuicide or accidental death is
within the realm of possibility,but there's a lot of like uh,
incongruent factors that, yeah,I'm like that just doesn't quite

(01:15:06):
sit right.
Yeah, so, and also another thingthat I would have thought is
for how near the things were tothe whole, that even if they had
landed right near him, wouldn'tthe force of him making that
entry point wouldn't have suckedthem down into the hole right

(01:15:28):
after him.
That's something that it wouldhave, that those things would
have been pulled down with himbecause they're just light
little things a phone andglasses compared to the force of
like a 260 pound body RightTraveling at I don't know how

(01:15:48):
many fucking miles per hour, butreally fucking fast, yeah.
So, anyway, that's anotherthing that I like.
That's just odd.
So immediately it seemed asthough the cops had like seen
the hole, seen the body, andsaid this is a suicide and ruled

(01:16:10):
it as such.
Previously.
What happened?
What they had done would likenot taking diagrams of the
pictures or bagging the evidenceor any of that stuff.
It doesn't even seem like properprocedure for you know, if you
think it's a suicide, yeah,although I believe that they're

(01:16:33):
also are supposed to take stepsto treat all cases initially
right, as they could be ahomicide.
So even if that wasn't the case, though, this is a bad way to
treat it.
In the Unsolved Mystery episode, the police indicated that they
interviewed residents andemployees of the Belvedere

(01:16:55):
regarding whether anyone hadseen or heard anything like.
Had they seen Ray or had theyseen anything strange?
However, makita Brotman, whowas a resident of the Belvedere,
reported that neither her norany of her neighbors were
interviewed.
Another source reported that aformer investigator on the case

(01:17:17):
admitted that no one in thebelvedere was interviewed.
Well, that doesn't sound goodyeah, an auto shop owner whose
building had been adjacent tothe parking garage had contacted
the police to cooperate withhim regarding giving his video
camera footage, which may haveshown footage of the parking

(01:17:38):
garage on the night of Ray'sdisappearance, but that lead was
seemingly never followed up onand the potential evidence was
never obtained.
Ray's cell phone records werenever obtained.
No statements were ever takenfrom the three Agora employees
that discovered the hole on theroof.

(01:17:59):
There is no diagram of wherethe hole on the roof was, where
Ray was supposed to have fallenor exactly where he landed.
Now, right away.
Of course, allison and Ray'sfamily didn't believe that Ray
had committed suicide.
Family didn't believe that Rayhad committed suicide, not only

(01:18:21):
for all of the reasons that wehad already stated, but his
behavior wasn't super indicativeof impending suicide either.
It didn't seem like he wastrying to tie off loose ends or
make amends or any of thosekinds of things that potential
people who are consideringsuicide tend to do.
Earlier in the day on May 16th,ray had booked a video editing

(01:18:47):
suite for the upcoming weekendon May 20th to edit the video of
the Oxford Club conference thatwe had discussed in the
previous episode.
Also on the 16th at leastaccording to Makita Brotman he
met with a member of theFreemason Society to discuss the
process of membership.

(01:19:07):
Now Ray had expressed recentinterest in the Freemasons and
this is like a hot topic ofdiscussion surrounding the case,
which makes me roll my fuckingeyes, because I think all of
that is hope, and we will getinto that some of the next
episode, although it isdefinitely one of the sillier
hypotheses in my opinion.
But some reasons that Ray mayhave developed an interest in

(01:19:33):
the Freemasons is that he mayhave thought that the Freemasons
were a good way to build thenetworking connections within
Hollywood, or he could have alsobeen researching them for a
future screenplay he wasplanning, or he could have
thought that StansburyIncorporated was infiltrated
with Freemasons and theFreemasons.
So we don't really know.

(01:19:56):
There isn't really anyinformation about what was on
Ray's computer, so we don't haveany more insight on things like
that that he may have keptnotes on.
He was reading like Freemasonsfor Dummies or whatever at the
time of his death.
So that's another thing.
But he does.
He's got this note which Ididn't write it down, but I'll

(01:20:21):
try and find the source so thatwe can I can read it to you.
There's this note that isattributed to him, that was
found taped to the back of hiscomputer, and it reads like a
bit of mumbo jumbo, right, andso there's a bunch of hypothesis

(01:20:42):
about what.
What could the note mean?
The fbi ruled that it probablywasn't a suicide note.
Some people do take it that way.
Some people take it as this isa sign of of like a case of
psychosis, which to me that's apotential explanation, although

(01:21:06):
there's definitely some concretedoubts to that as well.
Uh, some people, some peopletake it as these are possibly
like freestyle writing notes.
Yeah, because he was a writer.
Right, exactly, yes, he's awriter?

Speaker 1 (01:21:27):
Yeah, if you're a writer and you do that, it does
come out as mumbo jumbo.
It makes absolutely no senseunless you're the one doing it,
absolutely, and it does quitesound like mumbo jumbo,

(01:21:48):
absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:21:48):
And it does quite sound like mumbo jumbo.
And another hypothesis is thatit's like written in code and
it's meant to convey like asecret message, like blackmail
or a warning or something likethat possibility that ray didn't
write the fucking note, becausethere's we can't really prove
that he wrote it like it's atyped message.
It's taped to the back of hiscomputer but we don't know what
was on ray's computer.

(01:22:09):
So there's no like we don'tknow this came from there.
Like this came from his files.
Like he didn't sign the note,yeah, or anything like that.
And like it was found, likeafter after his body was found,
basically, and so many peoplehad been in and out of his house

(01:22:29):
, it could have been placedthere like clippings, like some
bits were cut off of the paperand that was folded up really
tiny and taped on the back ofthe paper and it's like printed
in a really teeny, tiny font.
So it's really impossible todetermine 100% that Ray wrote it

(01:22:50):
.
He probably wrote it, but itcould have.
Also another hypothesis is thatit was planted there Right To
make him look like he wasmentally unstable.
So that is another possibility.
I didn't mean to get into thenote already but I did because
it has some mentions of theFreemasons and some references

(01:23:11):
to Freemasonry stuff and sothat's part of that whole thing.
Yeah, it seemed like he wasdoing, was doing things.
He had plans.
He had immediate plans.
Yeah, he had distant plans, itseemed like it's unlikely he
would have exactly unless he didhave a psychotic episode or

(01:23:34):
something Right.
Or like there was something thathappened and he was like this
is you know the breaking point?

Speaker 1 (01:23:42):
I have to do this right now Like an impulsive
suicide decision, yeah, andremind me he didn't have any
alcohol or anything in hissystem.

Speaker 2 (01:23:48):
So he had a really tiny amount of alcohol in his
system, but the medical examinercould not even determine if it
was from ingested alcohol or ifit was merely the alcohols
produced by decomposition and hedidn't have any drugs or
anything in his system yeah, sohe was sober, he was lucid for

(01:24:13):
as much as you know.
If he was under psychosis, like,that's not entirely lucid, but
we again don't know that.
Yeah, so it can only bespeculation about whether or not
that is a possibility, and it'sdefinitely a possibility that I
have strongly considered andwas my lead hypothesis.

(01:24:39):
Um, now it's my second, becausejust too many factors that I'm
like that doesn't quite match.
Like I learned more informationthan I was like that doesn't
match and I'm not quite ascomfortable making that
assessment right.
Oh, we're getting to the end ofmy notes.

(01:25:00):
So so I wanted to talk abouthis injuries and this is where I
kind of like ran out of steam,because I was not ran out of
steam, but like I ran out oftime because I was like trying
to research stuff about hisinjuries, because, again,
different sources like say somedifferent stuff, right, and uh,

(01:25:21):
so I was trying to find out allthe different stuff so that I
can put it all down or put likethe most sensible things, yeah,
or the most sensible couple ofthings, right.
So all I have so far is that,according to the autopsy report,
yeah, yeah, he was prettyfucked up.
He had 24 broken ribs.
Both of his lungs werepunctured.

(01:25:42):
His heart and his liver weredamaged.
His neck and muscles were torn.
He had multiple skull fractures, a broken pelvis, a ruptured
testicle oh my God.
Multiple lacerations on hisarms, legs and torso.
He had several teeth that weredescribed as like ejected, and

(01:26:10):
the thing that I was trying toreally find information about
are his leg breaks, the the leginjuries.
Okay, because so he definitelyhad like a real bad um fracture
on his left leg, his right leg.

(01:26:33):
I was trying to findinformation.
It was either unfractured orthe fracture was far less severe
, and he did have lacerations onboth legs.
The lacerations on the leftside were again more severe.
From everything I could find,they were saying his feet were

(01:26:55):
not broken, which that's notconsistent with landing on your
feet like from a fall of likeyour feet would be like
shattered, like it would.
It's typically like bilateral is.
Is that the right term?
Damage onage on both sides,equal damage on both sides.

(01:27:18):
Right, because you're beingplummeted through this thing,
you're landing at force.
You know you're not usuallydoing like a pirouette on like
one toe.
You know you're bracing forimpact here and so you would be
damaged like pretty messed up onboth sides and that's not quite

(01:27:42):
the case.
Like he's much more damage onone side of his body than on the
other side of his body,especially in the legs where he
was supposed to have landed from, and that's that's the other
thing that is really like thatdoesn't quite match.
Now, the coroner's report doessay that most of his injuries

(01:28:05):
are consistent with a fall, andhere is where there is some
again, some inconsisten right,because some sources reported
that the medical examiner saidin the report that his leg

(01:28:26):
injuries were not consistentwith a fall.
Some sources said that themedical examiner told Allison
verbally that his leg injurieswere not consistent with the
fall.
The medical examiner ruled thecause of death as undetermined

(01:28:55):
and again, this is a very hotbutton issue because there's
multiple ways that people arelooking at this, there's
multiple ways that people areinterpreting this that she knew
that Ray's death was not asuicide and she told Allison

(01:29:19):
like something along the linesof like we're not letting them
get away with this, or somethingSome people have said, like you
know, like Allison is a liar.
And I think that's a bit extreme, right, because I'm like I
don't think that she would havea reason to lie, like you know,

(01:29:41):
like I think that she wants.
She wants to find out whathappened to her husband and now,
whether or not the medicalexaminer told her something to
try and make her feel better.
You know, that could be apossibility, or whether or not

(01:30:01):
she misinterpreted somethingwith the medical examiner.

Speaker 1 (01:30:04):
That's also a possibility.

Speaker 2 (01:30:06):
Right.
However, I don't think that sheis lying.
I think that's not.
I think that's a bullshit thingto say.
What else am I saying aboutthis, However, if we just take
that away?
we're looking at the ruling ofthe cause of death is
undetermined.
Some people have said thisruling favors the the baltimore

(01:30:28):
police department because itlike basically gives them leeway
to say, like this is a suicide.
If we want to say it's a suicide, right, because the medical
examiner is not saying this ishomicide, so we can go ahead and
be free to say it's a suicideif we want, right.
However, it also occurred to methat, like, looking at it from

(01:30:51):
probably like a scientificstandpoint and an ethical
standpoint, like because the waythat his body was injured and
stuff like that, like thereisn't like a real clear
indicator right Of homicide.
Like he doesn't have bulletwounds, he doesn't have stab

(01:31:13):
wounds, he wasn't poisoned orclearly like bludgeoned with a
weapon or something like that,and so no, like how can a
medical, a medical examinercould not ethically or
scientifically say this ishomicide, right, like that would
just be like not the rightchoice yeah and so if they're

(01:31:35):
saying like, yeah, maybe this ishomicide, but I really can't
tell based on what I have, whichis a body Right, then the only
choice that they do have is tolabel the death undetermined.
Yeah.
So I don't necessarily think,oh, they're giving a boon to the

(01:31:57):
police department and I don'tnecessarily think, oh, they're
trying to give a boon to Allison.
I think that you know they'rejust trying to.

Speaker 1 (01:32:04):
Just ethically, they can't do it.
Yeah, they can't go either way.
Exactly, they're trying to dotheir.
Yeah, not enough evidence tosay that Exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:32:13):
Yeah, exactly, yeah, exactly, and so that's really
the only kind of way that theycan go to say like we just
really can't tell Right, andthat's what they have done,
mm-hmm.
So.

Speaker 1 (01:32:31):
So technically it's an open case, sort of.

Speaker 2 (01:32:34):
Well, that's another thing, sort of well, that's
another thing.
That's another thing thatmakita had trouble finding out
and from other sources that it'shard to to.
People didn't want to answerthe question of whether the case
is still open.
One thing that I thought whichwe talked about was so
interesting is that is thatpeople kept warning, like makita

(01:32:59):
, throughout the book, likedon't look into this, this is
dangerous.
Like there are certainassociations you know wink, like
with a certain company, winkand a certain individual wink
that, like this company, theseaffiliates are really dangerous
and like they're known to causetrouble and they're known to be

(01:33:23):
a danger to people and peopleare known to die under
mysterious circumstances.
You know, when they cross pathswith these people and all kinds
of people gave makita this kindof warning from like cops,
journalists, privateinvestigators and, like I said,
like a law professor and alsolike raised friends, and then at

(01:33:50):
the end like nothing really shedidn't really say anything
about like her thoughts on that.
She didn't really say anythingabout her thoughts on that.
But then it seemed like shekind of glossed it over and she
was like, well, people couldjust be jealous of a certain
company because they're sosuccessful, and of course
they're going to come up withconspiracy theories because
they're a success.
And I was like I think you'reoversimplifying this, you know

(01:34:13):
like these are not quiteconspiracy theorists who are
telling you these things, right,you know like these are not
quack conspiracy theorists whoare telling you these things,
you know.
And then she was like I thinkit's like, you know, like a
suicide or accidental suicide,because he was under, you know,
like psychosis, which I think isa potentially valid conclusion.

(01:34:36):
But I think she left out a lotof things or skimmed over a lot
of things to reach thatconclusion and I was like, wait,
what about these things that Ireally want to go Like?
She really did not at allexplore the possibility that he
may have been killed not byfalling through a hole and

(01:34:58):
placed in the conference room,right, and that the hole was
from some other means, whetherafter or before, and it was
already there and they just tookadvantage of it.
That wasn't something that sheconsidered at all.
It that wasn't something thatshe considered at all, and I

(01:35:19):
think it's worth considering,especially since the parking
garage abuts a passage thatleads to the conference room,
and so you could very easilycarry a body into the conference
room without going through thehotel and without being noticed.

Speaker 1 (01:35:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:35:39):
And she even talks about that.

Speaker 1 (01:35:42):
And the Belvedere didn't really have any cameras.

Speaker 2 (01:35:45):
Yes, yes, that is another thing.
That is weird is the camerasituation.
That's another thing, which hasmultiple stories for multiple
sources as well.
So definitely there is nocamera footage from the roof.
That's the one thing that weknow.
Like the cameras were off onthe roof.

Speaker 1 (01:36:08):
Wait, they did have cameras on the roof, but they
were off.

Speaker 2 (01:36:11):
Yes, actually, and the means from which they were
off or not working or notavailable is also different.
Like one source says they werelike off.
One source says that they wereplaying but like they record
over and so by the time they hadfound it it had recorded over

(01:36:33):
the footage and it was gone.
Another source said it lookedlike they had been tampered with
and so that's also differentstories.
But the cameras on the roofthere were cameras on the roof
but they were not working thatnight for whatever reason or not

(01:36:53):
capturing anything Right, andthere were also cameras inside
the Belvedere, Mm-hmm.
And that the information aboutthose cameras is also mixed.
So in the Makita Brotman bookshe said that Allison was
brought in and reviewed footagefrom inside the hotel, mm-hmm.

(01:37:17):
With whatever, like a cop andlike the hotel manager or
something.
They all sat down or whateverand reviewed some footage for
quite some time.
Yeah, and according to theunsolved mysteries, that the cop
who was on there, he said thatthere was footage inside the
belvedere and that he reviewedit, but there was no footage of

(01:37:38):
Ray found.
According to another, likenewspaper source from around the
time, there wasn't any likefootage, like there was no
footage available period, and soit's like which story is true?
It's like which story is true?

(01:38:04):
Yeah, and if she did like seefootage, like what was on the
footage that she saw, why didn'tshe talk about it?
I feel like I feel like in thatinstance makes me feel like,
maybe, like do I even trustmakita brought me?
Because I'm like, if shereviewed some kind of footage,
like why don't they talk aboutthat?
Yeah, like I don't know.

(01:38:24):
Even if it's like we reviewedfootage and we didn't find Rey,
yeah, so that's a weird thing.
But I mean, or it could havejust been cut, like I know they
cut a lot of things from theNetflix episode as well, yeah,
but that was the only place Icould in that book that I could
find mention that and it waskind of a thing of I saw her

(01:38:49):
come do this thing.
I mean, makita seems like apretty reliable person, but who
knows for sure.
Like, she's selling me a book,right so?
And she also talked about likea passage inside the hotel where
you could like go up tostraight, like to the, to the,

(01:39:09):
to the the roof.
I'm like to the to the thing,to the roof roof.
However, like she said that shesaw or went in this passage
like shortly after Ray's deathand then the rest of the time
she's like hunting for thepassage, hunting for the passage
, and she can't fucking find it,which seemed to me to be odd.

Speaker 1 (01:39:35):
Yeah, that doesn't sound particularly reliable.

Speaker 2 (01:39:39):
No, it doesn't.
And so I'm like is there apassage or not?
Like, does anybody have afucking schematic blueprint of
the fucking Belvedere?

Speaker 1 (01:39:50):
That shouldn't be that hard to get.
You should be able to haveaccess to that.
Well, I'm talking out of my ass, but I'm pretty sure I remember
from journalism school that youcan apply to get any sort of
schematic for a public building.

Speaker 2 (01:40:07):
Yeah, and that's one thing that I definitely haven't
seen people talk about oranalyze Like I've seen people
talking.
Google Maps shows this and fromthe outside of the Belvedere, we
can see this.
And I was inside the Belvedere,we can see this.
And, yeah, I was inside thebelvedere and I saw that.
It seems oh remember last week,though I had reported that that
I had read another source thatsaid in makita's book that she

(01:40:32):
indicated that ray went up tothe roof at some point with
allison and that he had maybestayed at the bell of a deer
with his friend.
That was not in the book, sothat source was bullshit.
Yeah, so that's why I I wasskeptical about that source when
I read.
That's why I prefaced it like I.

Speaker 1 (01:40:52):
I wonder if that person got us uh, uh, uh, got it
from another source that saidit was makita, like I've.
I've seen that in researchbefore from historians like they
just keep they'll say something, but when you really dig into
it it's like from some randomperson that said it and they
just keep referencing each other.

(01:41:14):
Right, it's like, uh, did youlook at the actual source?

Speaker 2 (01:41:21):
yeah, well, there's so many and so many of these
sources are podcasts and things.
Yeah, are referencing heavilyfrom her book, yeah, and and so,
yeah, I could absolutely seethat happening, like her book
and the unsolved mysteries.
Yeah, podcasts are like a mainsource of information because

(01:41:42):
it's hard, it is hard to findreal substantive information
about this case and to know,yeah, like this source is this
and this source is this.
Yeah, like I saw, I saw in thescene.
Now we're're completely offscript.

(01:42:03):
So in the episode UnsolvedMysteries, they report that the
call that Ray got was tracedback to a line line for, like
Stansbury's company, like Agora,like a, like one of those

(01:42:25):
switchboards where, like, youcan tell it came from there, but
you can't really tell exactlywho it came from because in
those days, like they didn'treally have that kind you know,
from that kind of switchboard.
They couldn't the the there goesmy speech impediment, you

(01:42:45):
couldn't really trace it backlike that, and so they couldn't
tell any farther than that otherthan is, like from the
baltimore city, says it didn'tcome from stanbury and

(01:43:07):
associates it came from somerando house.
And I'm like, so what's?
Which is true, becauseeverybody else is saying like
allison, and everybody else issaying it came from Stansberry,
and now you guys are saying itcame from here, like, are you
lying?
Like, and if it came from here,why didn't you investigate here

(01:43:28):
, right, what is here?
Right, you know, because theswitchboard explanation gives
some kind of rationale for whythey cannot further trace the
call.
Right, if it came from somerandom house, like, so what did
you do?
Did you follow up?
Yeah, like, that has a wholedifferent piece of the fucking

(01:43:53):
puzzle.
Yeah, which is why I said thiscase is like rabbit holes on
rabbit holes.
Yeah, Because, it's like what'sthe truth, like what happened,
like yeah, you know, yeah, youdon't know, yeah, and it's.
It's really kind of a mind fuck.

Speaker 1 (01:44:10):
It is frustrating.
I mean just the handful ofcases I've done one where
there's like two or threeepisodes of something from
different shows.
Yeah, you know they'll saydifferent, like vastly different
things and and you're like what, what is the truth here?

Speaker 2 (01:44:30):
like they seem.

Speaker 1 (01:44:31):
They both seem like credible sources, yeah right,
yeah, and and and so like, andthose are are cases that have
been solved and there's notreally any mystery.
It's just certain like timelinethings or whatever that aren't
that important to the case, butthey're so vastly different,
it's so weird.

Speaker 2 (01:44:49):
Yeah, those kinds of things quite frustrate me too.

Speaker 1 (01:44:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:44:53):
Yeah, and it is even more frustrating, yeah, in a
case like this that is seeminglyshrouded in mystery.
Yeah, and people feel like youknow, of course you know.
Baltimore police officialstance is Ray committed suicide,
Mm-hmm, but so many peoplefirmly believe that he didn't.

(01:45:15):
Yeah, if there's anything elsethat I really need to talk about

(01:45:41):
in this episode, yeah, anotherthing that there is one more
thing I need to talk about inthis episode, although I didn't
take notes on it, so it might ifI say something wrong.
Don't like, come from me, right.

Speaker 1 (01:45:57):
Right, you're doing it from memory, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:46:00):
But after, basically after Ray's body was found,
porter Stansbury stoppedcooperating with police and
lawyered up.
Yeah, and all of his employeesalso stopped cooperating with
police.
Now different sources and Iguess some people have received

(01:46:22):
cease and desist orders becausethey've made it abundantly clear
that Porter Stansbury did notplace a gag order on his
employees.
Right, and so I am making itabundantly clear that Porter
Stansbury did not place a gagorder on his employees.
Uh-huh clear.
That porter stands where.
He did not place a gag order onhis employees.

(01:46:43):
However, I would like to saythat you don't have to
officially place a gag order onyour employees, you just need to
be intimidating gag order onyour employees right yeah,
exactly, you are their fuckingboss.
Yeah, like you can ruin theirlives in your, their careers,
especially if you have the kindof sway that porter allegedly
had right like the way makitaputs it porter is like a

(01:47:03):
semi-fucking celebrity inbaltimore baltimore, baltimore.
And so not only could heallegedly, if he wanted, fire
his employees, but he could alsocompletely destroy their
reputations and make sure thatthey don't find work again.

(01:47:24):
And so when you have that kindof clout, you don't need a gag
order Like what you say youremployers do.

Speaker 1 (01:47:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:47:34):
And another thing that like in the crime junkies,
because they had to put likethis kind of disclaimer, is that
they were like an award for onethousand dollars and then later
he put an award for fivethousand dollars.

(01:48:06):
It's like my dude, you're amulti-millionaire, yeah.
Like, is your friend only worthfive fucking thousand dollars,
right, yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:48:15):
and then then just the thing about not yeah, even
the FBI does like 10,000 orsomething, right yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:48:23):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:48:24):
Even the government thinks you're worth more than
that.

Speaker 2 (01:48:29):
Yeah, and when you see these things on Reddit, I'm
like Porter.
Did you write that?
Or did one of your employeeswrite that?
Allegedly?
Because they're like, portertried to find his friend.
Therefore, porter could not beguilty.
Right, I'm like dude.
That proves nothing.
Right, like they're like porterjoined the search.
You know killers always do.

Speaker 1 (01:48:52):
They always do.
Well, I can't say always, butmost of the time they do they
often will.
Yeah, they attend the funerals.

Speaker 2 (01:48:59):
And it certainly does not dis-fucking-prove, guilt
yeah.
So, and again I want to say I'mnot accusing anyone.
Porter Stansbury, if you're outthere, one of our five
listeners- Right.
Like, but like.
Nothing about that isexonerating.

Speaker 1 (01:49:20):
No, no, but we're not saying that is exonerating, no.
No, but we're not saying thathe did anything either.
Let's make that clear.

Speaker 2 (01:49:25):
Yes, absolutely.
We are not saying anything.
We are letting the readers drawtheir own conclusions.
Listeners, damn it.
Listeners draw their ownconclusions.
I don't know.
I don't know what kind ofsenses that you're taking this

(01:49:45):
podcast in with.

Speaker 1 (01:49:47):
Well, that's true, you could be listening, you
could be reading a transcript,you could be reading our
transcript.

Speaker 2 (01:49:51):
Yeah, In which case I feel sorry for you because our
transcription service is notgreat.
No.

Speaker 1 (01:49:57):
I apologize.
We don't have any funding forthis and I'm a teacher, so I
make no money, and so I have thecheap option.

Speaker 2 (01:50:05):
Everybody listen.
Tell your friends so you canget some money.
Yeah, what am I saying?
Another thing that is weird,right, is that the cops that had
Ray's computer, of which weknow nothing about his contents,
right when Allison goes to pickRay's computer up, the officer

(01:50:26):
tells her that somebody else hadbeen calling and trying to get
them to release Ray's computer.
To them who that person is.

Speaker 1 (01:50:39):
Unknown computer to them?
Who?

Speaker 2 (01:50:39):
that person is unknown, yeah, but somebody was
trying really fucking hard toget the cops to give them ray's
computer, interesting, which isreally weird.
So I think that's all I havefor today.
Okay, uh, because I'm out ofnotes and and I'm just rambling
at this point, right, and Ithink I've gone over most of the

(01:51:04):
really salient points.
Oh, uh, the other thing is thatso the, the one guy that I had
mentioned, michael bear, the,the lead detective on the case,
so he is on the case and likeworking with allison and her
family and stuff for about threeweeks and he is open to the

(01:51:25):
possibility of the case being ahomicide.
However, after that three weekshe's taken off the case and he
was told that he was tooinvested in the case, which is
kind of a weird thing to sayyeah to a cop like you're too
invested yeah investigating thiscase, yeah, and another dude is

(01:51:50):
is put in charge of the caseand at that point the case is
effectively closed, like nobodyis really allowed to like any
more information about the caseand that dude is very closed lip
about the case and at thatpoint, um, from what I can tell,

(01:52:10):
there's no more notes, there'sno more, there's nothing else
about the case after that, yeah,yeah, so at that point it's
pretty much no moreinvestigating.
Yeah, so that's, yeah.
I think that is all I have fortoday.
Next episode is when I'm goingto talk about these different

(01:52:33):
theories and we'll talk aboutsome of the more outrageous ones
.
And we'll talk about some ofthe more outrageous ones and
we'll talk about some of thepotentially more credible ones,
and including, you know, suicidehypothesis, including psychosis
, accidental death hypothesis.
No, aliens, though I haven'tseen an alien I haven't seen an

(01:52:55):
alien one yet Surprisingly, butyeah, I have seen a number of
odd hypotheses.
I haven't seen an alien one yetsurprisingly, but yeah.
I have seen a number of oddhypotheses, so I'll try and fit
in as many as I can, or as manyinteresting ones.
If they're not credible, verycredible and also not

(01:53:17):
interesting, then I might omit.

Speaker 1 (01:53:20):
Yeah, interesting case rabbit holes pound rabbit
very interesting case okay, um,so let me finish with my missing
person and then we'll do alittle gossiping thing again.
My missing person is donitawilkerson and she disappeared in
Evansville, indiana.
She was last seen on June 21st2020 at 8.16 pm at a local

(01:53:44):
Evansville Indiana motel gettinginto a silver pewter-colored
2004 Chevy Suburban.
Donita's phone was shut off bythe next morning.
Her family reported her missingwhen she didn't call her mother
or daughters as she usually did.
Donita has several medicalconditions that require

(01:54:06):
medication that she is without.
If you have any informationconcerning her, you may contact
the FBI Indianapolis office at317-595-4000 or the Evansville
Police Department at812-436-7979 or tip line at

(01:54:30):
812-435-6194.
You can also contact your localFBI office or the nearest
American embassy or consulate.
So that's all the informationwe have.

Speaker 2 (01:54:43):
That's good information.
I hope that somebody will makethat call if they have any
information about her.
And when did she go missingagain, 2020.
2020.
Yeah, oof, well, hopefullyshe's still out there and you
know, just no contact orsomething.

Speaker 1 (01:55:03):
So did you do any reading or writing, reading or
writing, reading or watching?

Speaker 2 (01:55:10):
I have not done any writing besides this absolute
word salad of an outline I havejust been watching.
Yeah, still deep space.
Nine, we just watched thatepisode where rom makes a union,
which is a fucking awesomeepisode, and he like quotes

(01:55:31):
marks to quark.
I'm like fuck yeah rom.
And he also like stealsbasheer's girl.
Oh, all the things for rom inthat episode.
Yeah, poor dr bashir did I evertell you I'd be all right.

Speaker 1 (01:55:48):
Oh my god, like he's always getting ass that's true,
he was the good looking one onthat show.
Did I tell you I met him?
Oh my god, I even got asignature from him.
That's awesome.
And and the guy that playedGarrick.

Speaker 2 (01:56:01):
Yeah, yeah, I remember you told me that you
met Garrick.
Yeah, but I don't remember thatyou met Dr Bashir, whose real
name I never remember how topronounce.

Speaker 1 (01:56:12):
Yeah, God, that was almost 30 years ago.
Yeah, yeah, my poor grandpa.
I feel so bad.
I was 12 or 13, so I was kindof like I felt bad about how I
looked.
You know, I was getting intothat age and uncomfortable with
myself, and my grandfather wasone of those people that took

(01:56:34):
like a million photos, likeconstantly taking photos.
But anyway, he was not intoStar Trek, he's not into any
kind of science fiction fantasy,but he knew that I was and so
he.
I didn't even know it was there.
He took me to that conventionyeah and he waited in line and
listened to all this stuff hedidn't give a shit about oh and

(01:56:56):
um.
I felt so bad because he hetook pictures of me and I was
just.
I made the worst faces and Iwas just so because I was so
uncomfortable with myself, youknow, and I wasn't particularly
grateful for that and I feelreally, really bad now.
But at the same time I was also12 and big boobed and you know,

(01:57:17):
just not feeling good.
Yeah, 12 is a hard age.
It's a horrible age for girls.
At least Katie's grandpa was areal one.
He was.
He was a good guy.
Any guy I go out with, orwhatever, is gonna have some big
shoes to fill.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:57:38):
I'm doing a face and it's like a sad cry face.
Yeah, I remember seeing somekind of like interview or
whatever with Dr Bashir, actor,and he had been married to Nana
visitor, kira actress, and theyhad a kid together and in fact

(01:58:00):
it was written to the show.

Speaker 1 (01:58:03):
Yeah, because she was pregnant.
Well, she was filming, she waspregnant with the O'Briens baby.

Speaker 2 (01:58:08):
Yeah Right, and they said that she had gotten so into
character and she was reallyparanoid about Cardassians
coming to get her or something,so she like broke glass, which
reminded me of like.

Speaker 1 (01:58:26):
Of our mutual friend.

Speaker 2 (01:58:27):
Yes, she broke some like glass in like front of the
door because she thought thatlike Cardassian, like spies or
whatever were going to come gether, and the Dr Bashir actor
like cut up his poor foot.

Speaker 1 (01:58:42):
Oh, no Aw.

Speaker 2 (01:58:46):
So yeah, I remember that story about them.

Speaker 1 (01:58:52):
That's funny.
I thought it was super fun andcute.

Speaker 2 (01:58:55):
I mean, I'm sure it was not fun for the Dr Bashir
actor.

Speaker 1 (01:58:57):
No, no, when he cut his foot out of the glass.
Butir actor no no.
Sadiq Al-Fadl, I think that'shis name.

Speaker 2 (01:59:01):
But, it's probably a funny story that he remembers
now, pregnancy does some weirdshit to your hormones.

Speaker 1 (01:59:08):
I hear that I've been told.
Did you read anything besidesthe book for your
Whatchamacallit I?

Speaker 2 (01:59:16):
know you're currently reading.
Exquisite Corpse right, I amcurrently reading Exquisite
Corpse and I haven't finished itbecause it's a very
not-safe-for-children book.
And so I'm like, even like, Ihave both the audio book and the
physical book, but, like youknow, if, like, one of my kids

(01:59:38):
is around and I'm like, I'm like.
I don't want to read anything.
What are you talking about,Right, you know?
Like, because I don't want themto be like.
What's that?
What's it about?
Like, how do you describe thatin a?

Speaker 1 (01:59:52):
child-friendly way.
Yeah yeah, that would be atough one.
Yeah yeah, no, that would be atough one.

Speaker 2 (01:59:56):
Yeah, yeah.
So let me see if I readanything else.
That no, I haven't, because thelast one before that is Little
Crazy Children.
So no, it's just.

Speaker 1 (02:00:09):
You mean, I outread you this week.

Speaker 2 (02:00:14):
Yeah, my reading dropped off.
I've been like hella busy likedoing what I'm, like I don't
know stuff, kids stuff.

Speaker 1 (02:00:20):
Yeah, no, it was a busy week for you.
Yeah, yeah, I haven't watchedanything.
Well, that's not true.
Matt Murphy's book came outthis week, which I read.
It's called the Book of Murder.
It's fantastic, and I'm notjust saying that because he's
cute, it really is well done.
So he's been on true crimeshows and stuff, so like Megyn

(02:00:41):
Kelly and whatever.
So more podcasty things, but thevisual versions of those I
watched.
Yeah, also, crimecon did onewhere he was being interviewed
by Elizabeth Fargus fromNewsNation, because he's on
NewsNation a lot and some of hisformer co-workers came in and,
you know, told funny stories andgave him a little bit of shit,

(02:01:03):
but he seems to be a well-likedman and he was nice when I met
him, very nice when I met him.
So I can see that.
Yeah, and the only other personwho says dude as much as I do,

(02:01:25):
you do say dude a lot I do.
Maybe it's a beat, maybe it'scoming from like beach
communities, like I'm originallyfrom hawaii and even though I
left when I was a kid, I feellike maybe that's like a, just
something you do when you'reyeah, it's just a natural beach
style word or something I usedto say, say dude a lot, but then
, like you know, like mysiblings would always be, like a

(02:01:45):
dude is a pimple on a horse'sass, and so you stopped doing it
because it was irritating, Istopped doing it yeah, yeah,
because I didn't want to hearthat.
I think it's increased over theyears.
Yeah, yeah, I call everybodydude.
I think I've, even over theyears.
Yeah yeah, I call everybodydude.
I think I've even called mygrandmother dude, right.

Speaker 2 (02:02:06):
I call my pets.

Speaker 1 (02:02:07):
Dudes, yeah, yeah, little dudes, yeah, although I
run into a problem with peoplearound my age when I say like
hey, dude or something, oranswer the phone, hey, dude,
because they all remember theshow.
Hey, dude, maybe you're tooyoung to remember that, I do not
remember, but it was aNickelodeon show.
I don't really remember it atall, except that they were like

(02:02:29):
on a dude ranch or something andthey would always say hey, dude
, yeah, or at least that was thelike beginning of the show or
something.
But anyway, I say dude a lotand I'm glad somebody else does
yeah as much as I do.
It's a great word, I love it,okay, anyway.
So that was the only thing Iread this week, but I was saying

(02:02:52):
for a long time that I hadn'tread like anything this summer,
but it turns out I've read mostof the books I've read this year
, this summer.
Nice, I had no idea, go you,yeah.
So I don't know where I leftoff, but I, um, I've read most
of a series that's out calledthe riley thorne series.
I've told you about it, but yes, in case readers are interested

(02:03:15):
, it's labeled as romance.
I would label it mystery with aromance involved, and my theory
is why it's called romance isbecause it says very adult words
sometimes and there is a wowand and and there are some sex

(02:03:36):
scenes.
But I mean it's it's no more orless part of the story than the
mystery, and in fact I thinkthe mystery actually takes
precedence.
But they're really good.
They're absolutely hilarious.
The side characters are wortheverything, including the.
I mean, the two main ones aregreat too, but the side
characters are fantasticallydone and I highly recommend

(02:03:58):
getting the audio versionbecause the narrator is probably
one of my favorite narrators.
She does voices for all of thecharacters.
They are, they are all verydistinct and the male characters
sound male, yeah, which is nice, um, because that doesn't
always happen, uh, anyway.

(02:04:20):
So the riley thorne serieshighly recommend.
Um, I read night watch for mybook club.
That was a horrible book, butit's the one that won the um
pulitzer, I think.
Not great, uh, I think that'sit, but yay me, yeah yay, you
indeed.

Speaker 2 (02:04:38):
Yeah.
Yeah, I read a lot last monthand this month I haven't been
reading as much.

Speaker 1 (02:04:44):
Yeah well, you've kind of gone down this rabbit
hole.
So yeah, that's true.
So you've been doing thepodcast.

Speaker 2 (02:04:50):
Yes, I have been listening to quite a bit of
podcasts and then, like usuallywhen I make dinner and stuff,
then I listen to my audio booksand things like that.
But, again, like, I usually justlisten to.
I don't have headphones CauseI'm like what if something
happens?
Like I need to hear, and so,yeah, I, I so I haven't been

(02:05:12):
listening to that exquisitecourse one, for obvious reasons.
And now I'm like, but I don'twant to start a new book before
I finish that book, and so I'vebeen listening to, yeah,
podcasts when I've beenlistening to that maintenance
phase podcast.
So it's a great, great podcastto listen to.

(02:05:33):
If you are, you know, feelinglike you know feeling like you
know some internalized fatphobia, and if you're feeling
down about yourself, you knowlike, even like whatever, like
you know, if the doctor is likeyou're overweight and you're
like, hold up, I'm notoverweight, then you can listen
to that podcast, you know.

(02:05:54):
Or if you're, you know, trulyquite chub like me, you know
it's really great and it's greatfor anybody who is really into
debunking like BS, like sciencethat has led to some really
questionable like medicalrecommendations and things of

(02:06:17):
that nature.

Speaker 1 (02:06:18):
Yeah, so yeah, is that it?
Yeah, I think that's it.
Okay, we didn't do much gossip.

Speaker 2 (02:06:25):
Well, I guess we did the gossip we talked a lot in
the beginning about our pets yes, um, okay, so I will redo.

Speaker 1 (02:06:34):
So rachel is reading exquisite Corpse.
Would feel like it's kind ofsuccinct, more succinct, like

(02:07:04):
Anne Rice.

Speaker 2 (02:07:06):
I was going to say Anne Rice-ian Kind of style, but
, like I mentioned to Katiebefore, that might be because
it's partially set in NewOrleans.
And yeah, if you are into likeserial killers, like see very
dahmer inspired to me yeah, yeah, um then and wasn't it written

(02:07:32):
around that time of dahmer?

Speaker 1 (02:07:33):
when was dahmer?

Speaker 2 (02:07:35):
um in the 90s, right?

Speaker 1 (02:07:37):
yeah, I think that book came out in the 90s, so
maybe it was inspired by yeah,it's one of it's one of the
classic body horror it seemsvery heavily inspired by dahmer
like a lot of aspects.

Speaker 2 (02:07:49):
I'm like oh yeah, that's quite like dahmer, yeah,
yeah, I think it's pretty good,yeah and yeah, and just kind of
like unab unabashed, like badpeople you know, if that's your
jam unabashed bad people and,yeah, you don't mind body horror
and icky kind of things andserial killers, then absolutely.

Speaker 1 (02:08:13):
Yeah, and I read the Riley Thorne series Highly
recommend if you're in the moodfor a mystery and or a romance.
Also, I highly recommend thebook of murder.
I really really do.
If you're into true crime, andsince this is technically a true
crime podcast, I would highlyrecommend that book because it's
a memoir.
It's got the personal stuff inthere.

(02:08:34):
He talks about how being thehomicide prosecutor in the place
where he was, where theyactually have to go to crime
scenes and stuff but even if itwasn't that, I think he would
still have worked really hardand how all of that took a real
toll on his relationships.
And also, if you like crime,because he does go into all

(02:08:56):
those big crimes the dating gamekiller.
It's called the Book of Murder AProsecutor's Journey through
love and death by matt murphyand it's well written.
He's a good writer, it's it's.
You wouldn't know that it's afirst book, right?
So those are the things I wouldrecommend and oh, he, I mean
rachel already knows this, but Imay as well embarrass myself

(02:09:18):
further.
I put a little recommendationthingy on Instagram about how
much I liked the book and theaudiobook and I tagged Matt
Murphy in it because I'm a dorkand he actually DMed me and said
thank you, which was very sweetof him, since I have like five

(02:09:39):
followers on instagram orwhatever.
And then, of course, I have towrite back and be like see you
on the crime cruise.
So I embarrass myself because Iam an awkward, weird person no,
it's good.

Speaker 2 (02:09:51):
It's good.

Speaker 1 (02:09:52):
Maybe he remembers you maybe I don't think so,
though, but that's okay's okay.

Speaker 2 (02:09:56):
I think you're memorable.
Aw, he's probably like that'sthat short cute blonde?

Speaker 1 (02:10:03):
I doubt it.
That's that weirdo that cameand stalked me in the airport.
No, you did not.
No, I didn't stalk him, I justsaw him.
I was like, oh my God, it was astar-studded flight.
I saw a lot of people.
Okay, him, I just saw him I waslike oh my god, it was a
star-studded flight, I saw a lotof people um, okay, who was the
one who was rude to you?

(02:10:24):
Oh, I don't want to say that onon here, but yeah, there was,
there was someone was rude,there was a.
Well, they thought I was rude.
Yeah, and I really haven'tfigured out why, but you just
said like hi or.
Yeah, like I didn't want tobother them, but I also wanted
to say hi.

Speaker 2 (02:10:42):
Didn't you say hi, I don't want to bother you.

Speaker 1 (02:10:44):
Yeah, I said hi, I don't want to bother you, I'll
see you, you know, tomorrow.
I just want to come up and sayhi, and then I apparently was
rude.

Speaker 2 (02:10:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:10:54):
And um.

Speaker 2 (02:10:57):
I mean, I can see how like people would be like oh
you know, I've had enough, butlike you know, that's not.

Speaker 1 (02:11:03):
I don't think it was that because he's somebody who
will happily stop and like takepictures and things with people.
Yeah, like, I don't think it'sbecause I bothered him, I think
it's because I just didn't likestay in.
I mean, I really don't know.
I really don't know.
Maybe I said it in a tone somepeople say I sound rude, or
maybe it's because I was likeI'll talk to you tomorrow or

(02:11:25):
something.
Didn't ask for a picture orwhatever.
I don't know.
I just didn't want to botherhim.
I'm sure he'd been bugged forlike the last hours we were on
the flight.
Maybe he just like was not in agood mood but he seemed very
happy at first to talk to me,but I didn't stay.
Maybe that's why.
Maybe I just like turned around.

(02:11:47):
But I'm also awkward and weird.
Yeah, and I apologize if I wasrude, but I was just not that he
would be listening.
But I am just awkward and weirdand I don't do social
interactions very well,particularly if I don't really
know people.

Speaker 2 (02:12:03):
I hear you.
I hear you, yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:12:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:12:07):
So I mean I would probably be, you know, not
approach because of two chickenshit.

Speaker 1 (02:12:14):
So yeah, I don't know what came over me, because
normally I'm very much a chickenshit, yeah, and, and I would
not have done that, but Iapproached two people.
I can't believe I did that inthe same day.
Yolo, yeah, maybe that was it,and I was like well, you know I,
if they don't like me, Iprobably won't see him again.

(02:12:37):
So, exactly, exactly, yeah,exactly Exactly.

Speaker 2 (02:12:40):
And yeah, I mean you did your best to be polite.

Speaker 1 (02:12:44):
Yeah, I'm just awkward and weird and I
apologize If you ever meet meand I come off as rude.
I promise you, I'm just beingawkward.

Speaker 2 (02:13:03):
I don't know how to do random social interactions, I
just don't well, and I thinkit's interesting what some
people you know find rude.
And you know, like as,especially as you know someone
who's neurodivergent, the parentof at least one, possibly two,
neurodivergent kids, like youknow, like it's, it can be hard
for people to to know what to do, yeah, to do the right thing,

(02:13:28):
and and to know what all theappropriate, not only know what
all the appropriate socialconventions are, but then
different people have differentideas of what is appropriate,
right, and so then you have tosomehow fucking figure that out
or like matriculate it into yourbrain, yeah, and if you don't

(02:13:48):
do that, then you're rude andit's like, yeah, I'm trying my
best, like if, yeah, I'm comingfrom a sincere place right, yeah
so, and I was't.

Speaker 1 (02:13:59):
I don't know how anybody could see that I wasn't
being sincere and like actuallyexcited to like meet him and you
know, I mean, who wants to talkto somebody after six hours on
a crappy plane, I mean.
So I was trying to be nice, butwhatever anyway, um yeah, so

(02:14:19):
I'm just awkward and weird.
It's okay, I know, it's okay, Idon't I.
I have learned to accept thatabout myself I, there's nothing
I can do about it.
I'm not saying it's okay aboutbeing awkward, weird, of course
that's okay, I'm saying it'sokay about the situation yeah,
no, I know I'm I'm also not umreally all bothered about it
anymore.

Speaker 2 (02:14:39):
I'm sorry, I brought it up.

Speaker 1 (02:14:40):
No, it's okay.
It's okay, we won't talk aboutit.
I just won't say the name ofthe person.
You got the book.
I did get the book.
So two more episodes, episode24.
We will have our new book todiscuss.
I should have picked that asone of my books.
I didn't think it was.
I don't think they have anothercopy.
I think I got the only one atthe time.
Maybe no, no, just kidding, wegot long haul hunting the

(02:15:04):
highway serial killers by frankfigliuzzi.
It's looks fairly short andfairly readable.
Yeah, a little over 200 pages,pages Great.
And a smaller of the hardback,types of hardbacks.
Also, our one year anniversarywill be coming up sometime in

(02:15:27):
October.
I'll have to look when.

Speaker 2 (02:15:30):
We could do a Halloween special.

Speaker 1 (02:15:32):
We should do a Halloween special, although that
might be independent of aHalloween special and an
anniversary special.

Speaker 2 (02:15:40):
We could do both.

Speaker 1 (02:15:41):
We could do both.
I will have to look at thethings, but one of these days,
pretty soon, is our one-yearanniversary.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:15:49):
Episode Stravagenza.

Speaker 1 (02:15:54):
Even though we have five listeners.
Yeah, they're like we don'tcare.
It's for us.
Yeah, um, it is kind of amilestone.
We've been doing this a wholeyear, yeah, figuring it out with
all of our busyness, do youthink?

Speaker 2 (02:16:08):
that we are better podcasters now than we were when
we started I don't know.

Speaker 1 (02:16:16):
I think we're still trying to figure out our way,
and it's kind of hard because wedon't know what anybody wants,
because we don't really havethat many listeners.

Speaker 2 (02:16:24):
Well, I think that we're not great at social
networking, which I know I'msupposed to be doing, but I'm
like ugh yeah.
I'm not good at either, I knowyou must be like you're like put
up the thing about the episode.

Speaker 1 (02:16:40):
A little bit.
Yeah, a little bit.

Speaker 2 (02:16:43):
And I'm like ugh it's time to put up the thing about
it.

Speaker 1 (02:16:46):
Yeah, we should probably do a little bit more of
that like teasers and stuff.
I know We'll get there and Igot to put this stuff on YouTube
, so watch out for that.
It will be coming up on YouTube.
I just haven't had a second tosit down and behind on

(02:17:08):
everything in my life right now.
Yep, it's been a very busy verybusy month, but anyway, okay.
So, speaking of social media,yes, like, subscribe, download,
review email, send an email.
We are on instagram, both ourpodcast and individually,
although neither of us has beenparticularly good about posting.
Well, we're also not reallypicture takers.

Speaker 2 (02:17:27):
We're humans who are busy.

Speaker 1 (02:17:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:17:30):
Unless.
People want to see a picture ofmy nails.

Speaker 1 (02:17:33):
Yeah Well, yours is more of a nail.

Speaker 2 (02:17:36):
Instagram.

Speaker 1 (02:17:37):
I'm just not good.
I am the exact opposite of mygrandpa.

Speaker 2 (02:17:42):
And if you want to see a picture of my nails I hope
you're not a nail fetishist,because it's not a nail fetish
channel, it's a nail polish.

Speaker 1 (02:17:50):
Appreciation yeah, Channel yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:17:53):
Nail polish appreciation channel.

Speaker 1 (02:17:54):
Yeah, there you go, but anyway you should follow us.
There you go, but anyway youshould follow us.
I think we're both going to tryto be more diligent about all
of that stuff.
Scouts on a.
Yeah, I was a scout, so was IFor a very brief period of time.
I hated every second of it.

Speaker 2 (02:18:15):
I liked it until I moved here.

Speaker 1 (02:18:17):
Yeah, okay, so Okay, so like subscribe, download,
review, email us, follow us onInstagram and we will talk to
you next time.
Bye.

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