Down the Rabbit Hole: The Baffling Case of Rey Rivera Part 3

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Kiki.

Speaker 2 (00:01):
And I'm Rachel.

Speaker 1 (00:02):
And this is, details are Sketchy A true crime podcast
, and this is, I believe,episode 26?
, 27?
, 26.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
I'm gonna go with whatever number you think it is,
I don't know and I don't wantto have to put out another
disclaimer.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:18):
I forget.
Hold on, yeah, so I think thisis episode 26.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
All right.
Okay, it's 26 now, whether youlike it or not.

Speaker 1 (00:31):
So this is episode 26 .
This is a third parter forRachel's.

Speaker 2 (00:36):
Ray.

Speaker 1 (00:36):
Rivera case.
We're doing the most unlikelyto likely scenarios.
Yes, and.

Speaker 2 (00:45):
I just got feedback from one listener that they like
this case, so we're going tokeep going on this case.
No, I'm just kidding, but thiswill be the last episode.

Speaker 1 (01:02):
Yeah, my mine will be next week.
So before we get into all that,I also.
There won't be any missingpersons this week.
That's my fault, and part ofthat has to do with why this
episode is a week late isbecause life has been one
dumpster fire after another forthe last two weeks.
It sure has been.
For both Rachel and I, includinga death of a pet, a

(01:26):
hospitalization of another pet,and because I'm blonde and dumb,
sometimes I locked my keys inthe trunk of my car, along with
the spare key in the trunk ofthe car, and despite numerous
people's valiant efforts to getmy keys out of the trunk of the

(01:46):
car, I wasn't able to do thatand I spent four hours in the
hot sun in a sweater, withoutwater or anything else.
You were in a sweater.
I was in a sweater.
It was cold when I left thehouse and I was expecting to be
spending hours in a cold,air-conditioned room, but
instead I spent it out in theheat and actually it was pretty

(02:07):
cool for a southern New Mexicoafternoon.
You know it was only80-something, but still too hot
and I'm pretty sure I had a heatstroke or was about to.
I was nearly passing out.
I was very sick, terriblemigraine.

Speaker 2 (02:24):
That's why I was like Santa's going to get you a flat
pack of water bottles.
Just don't keep it in the trunkof your car.

Speaker 1 (02:32):
I had a water bottle in the trunk of the car.
Yeah, full of cold water, yeah,but anyway.
So, yeah, we fell down on ourpodcasting duties the last two
weeks and so this is going to bea full week late.
But our 27th episode, which isour one-year anniversary episode

(02:55):
, coming out the same dayexactly a year since our first
episode, we will, oh my God,yeah, we will.
That will be the end of thefirst season.
We'll start the second seasonwith episode 28.
We have a season.
We will be doing a Halloweenthing, if I can get my act
together.
Season two details aresketchier For 27,.

(03:18):
We'll have a Halloween episode,perhaps, but Rachel and I will
definitely be a bit tipsy.
There will be cocktailsinvolved.
You will enjoy.

Speaker 2 (03:28):
Tipsy Rachel is fun.

Speaker 1 (03:32):
I don't know about tipsy Kiki.
You're fun, we're all fun.
Okay, so let's start with ourepisode.
Again, no missing person thisweek, unfortunately.
Okay, we got to get our shittogether and work things out,
but new things are coming.
Season two yes.
Maybe not the first episode ofseason two, because I will be on

(03:53):
a boat in the middle of theocean, but maybe episode two of
season two.

Speaker 2 (04:01):
That's very exciting.

Speaker 1 (04:03):
It is very exciting.

Speaker 2 (04:04):
I will be here.

Speaker 1 (04:08):
I'll enjoy the sun and sand for both of us Mentally
.

Speaker 2 (04:11):
I will be on a boat in the middle of an ocean.
That's awesome, and my boatwill have lots of sharks, so
yeah, so yeah.
Wonderful way to start theepisode.
I am on this episode.
I wanted to go over thetheories or well, they're

(04:35):
hypotheses, they're not theories, but we all know color.
Really.
They're called theories, sowe're gonna go with.
I used to really hate callinghypotheses theories, because
theories are like well testedand established.
However, recently I've become alittle bit more lax about it,

(04:56):
so we will call them theories.
But I mean interchange withhypotheses 30 something.

Speaker 1 (05:00):
Rachel is a lot less, a lot more wiggle wiggle room
when it comes to vocabulary,surprisingly, wait, I have one
question Do any of thesetheories involve aliens or
anything like that?

Speaker 2 (05:15):
No, darn, yeah.

Speaker 1 (05:17):
Darn.

Speaker 2 (05:18):
I bet if I had dug deep enough I probably could
have found an alien theory.
Yeah, that would have been fun.
But I was like I have eight andI was like that's enough.
Yeah, so the and I have themranked, in my opinion, kind of

(05:39):
from most, or sorry, not mostfrom like least plausible to
most plausible, but with somekind of caveats for some kinds
of situations.
And I mean it's it's opinionbased, I mean to an extent, I
mean we all know that certainthings are well.

(06:02):
Obviously we don't all knowthat certain things are well
obviously we don't all know,because these hypotheses do
exist right.
So obviously someone is takingsome of them really seriously,
but most of us know that some ofthese things are more credible
than other things.
Right?
But yeah, this was just how Ithought that they should be
ranked.

Speaker 1 (06:22):
Yes, okay so Wait, wait, hold on one second.
Um one more caveat before youbegin.
Rachel is sick, so you mighthear some coughing and some
sniff oh yeah, I, I forgot I wasgoing to mention yes, and she
may need a cough drop, so theremight definitely you might hear
her with something in her mouth,probably might be sucking on
cough drops.

Speaker 2 (06:40):
I might be sucking on cough drops.
I might be sipping tea.
I'm so sorry about all themouth sounds and things like
that.
I don't enjoy listening to themeither.
Even in my own sounds I don'tlike listening to them and I
wish I could shut them off.
Okay, so the first theory, or,if we're counting back, I guess

(07:07):
number eight I don't know, Icount in the one through eight,
but maybe I should count to themay through one is free mason
initiation gone bad.
I knew you would like that one.

Speaker 1 (07:25):
Oh, you know what's awesome about that, though?
My great grandpa was afreemason.
Oh, yeah, yeah, my grandmotherwas a daughter of job, did he,
did he?

Speaker 2 (07:35):
no, it's actually really boring.
That's what.
See, that's what I'm saying.
That's what I'm saying.
I'm like sure, rich people aredoing evil stuff, but they're
not really hiding it.

Speaker 1 (07:50):
No, and not all Freemasons are rich.

Speaker 2 (07:54):
Exactly.

Speaker 1 (07:55):
Exactly, my great-grandpa was a small-town
baker.

Speaker 2 (07:58):
Right.
So, no, it's silly.

Speaker 1 (08:02):
I asked my grandma about it because I was like oh,
what kind of secrets tell me?
Tell me.

Speaker 2 (08:07):
She's like all we did was sing, yeah so, yeah, you,
you will like this I like a goodconspiracy um so this theory
suggests that ray revere was inthe process of joining the
Freemasons.
And of course this theorypresupposes that the Freemasons

(08:33):
are more than just a charityorganization.
I said for rich old white men,but obviously you have disposed
me of the notion that it's onlyfor the wealthy.
So just dudes right.

Speaker 1 (08:46):
Right.

Speaker 2 (08:47):
It is exclusively for men, though correct.

Speaker 1 (08:49):
The Mason part is, but they have split-offs for
wives and daughters.

Speaker 2 (08:55):
Yeah, that's what I had read as well, and that it is
a powerful secret society thatcan grease the wheels of the
world.
Powerful secret society thatcan grease the wheels of the
world.
I say that rich white men don'tneed a secret society to grease
the wheels of the world.

Speaker 1 (09:12):
No, they do it out in the open, exactly Way out in
the open.
Yeah, I mean, look at Elon Musk, he's doing it, he's shoving it
in all of our faces.

Speaker 2 (09:20):
Exactly.
They can shove it up in ourfaces Like they are sending
their proverbial dick pic to theworld and there's nothing we
can do to stop them.

Speaker 1 (09:31):
Wait, can I ask before you continue is there any
evidence that he was joiningthe Freemasons?
Um, perhaps.

Speaker 2 (09:39):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (09:39):
Are you going to get to it?
Yeah, I have that.

Speaker 2 (09:41):
Oh, okay, I'm sorry.
Yeah, so you might rememberfrom last episode that,
according to Makita, brotman Raydid meet with a Freemason
representative on the date ofhis disappearance to discuss
membership.
Oh, you might also rememberthat he was reading the book

(10:04):
Freemasons for Dummies and thatthe note found taped to the back
of his computer made referencesto the Freemasons.

Speaker 1 (10:13):
How did I miss that?
Huh, I missed that, and I evenedited the episode.

Speaker 2 (10:21):
So there's some different hypotheses yeah,
hypotheses within the hypothesesabout why that might be.
Some say that Ray wasresearching the Freemasons for
an upcoming screenplay.
Yeah, that's what I would havethought.
Yeah, the Freemasons are greatfodder for films and
entertainment.

(10:41):
Oh, yeah.
Some say that he believed theFreemasons were a good
networking group to be connectedto within Hollywood.
However, this theoryhypothesizes that Ray was
actually in the process ofjoining the Freemasons and that
Porter Stansbury was his sponsor.

(11:02):
There's no evidence that PorterStansbury is a member of the
Freemasons.

Speaker 1 (11:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (11:07):
So proponents of this theory say that the note taped
to the back of Ray's computerwas an acceptance speech, for
when Ray got accepted into theOrder, the cryptic wording was
made to obfuscate the intent, asFreemasons' internal workings
are top secret, andasons'internal workings are top secret
and revealing those internalworkings could jeopardize race

(11:29):
chances within the organization.
So if you believe all the blah,blah blah and that blank check
that accompanied the letter wasto pay his initiation fee for
entry, according to Reddit userGoldenR16180,.

(11:53):
I'm going to be referring toseveral Reddit posts because a
lot of these theories trace backto Redditors.
And I don't feel bad about it.
A lot of semi-credible newsorganizations refer to reddit.
They're like this am I theasshole thread?
Blah blah, I'm like they can doit, I can do it well, yeah, I,

(12:16):
I have no problem yeah a lot ofpeople reference reddit exactly
yeah, um, so it's not allbullshit.

Speaker 1 (12:25):
Sometimes they have some really helpful information
when you're trying to figuresomething out.

Speaker 2 (12:30):
And it's, you know, it's hypotheses, and people go
on there like a lot of peoplewho are interested in this kind
of thing and they bounce ideasoff.

Speaker 1 (12:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:40):
Yeah so this check was blank because he would not

(13:08):
have known that the amount ofthe initiation fee would what
the amount of the initiation feewould be, but that his recent
15K loan was taken out to ensurethat he would be able to cover
the amount, rather than forequipment for his production
company, as other sources havesaid.
Right now, I want I do want tosay that this redditor, golden r
16180 uh, their posts didn'tnecessarily read, I don't.
I couldn't tell whether or notthey're like I believe in this
or whether or not they're likethis is a theory yeah yeah.

(13:29):
So I just want to say that, likeI'm not trying to just besmirch
the good name of golden r 16180, no, no, it's a fun idea yes um
, so ray's call to porter, wherehe had told porter he quote,

(13:51):
had it all figured out was abouthim unlocking some test call.
Uh, that was made to ray's housewas a call telling ray that he

(14:14):
had to get down to the lodgeright away for initiation.
So I guess, like he wouldn'thave known, like, when the
initiation was going to takeplace, and they're just like get
down here right now, sure, andso he's like, oh shit and he
goes logistically none of thisshit makes sense, you know or it

(14:36):
makes the most sense.
No, it doesn't make sense.
Oh god, okay, I do think that'sbad.
It gets worse.
Yeah, okay, he's meaning forhis secret initiation at a
secret time that was previouslyunknown to him.
Right, the reddit posthypothesized that ray didn't

(14:58):
need special clothes becauseeither the traditional clothing
would be provided or that robeswould be worn over whatever
clothing.
So they either meet in the 13thfloor ballroom of the Belvedere
Hotel or they initially meetelsewhere, like in, like the

(15:21):
Freemason Lodge, but then latergo to the Belvedere, maybe for
like part two, phase two of theinitiation, or this is where it
gets a little muddy or they didthe initiation and then they're

(15:43):
celebrating at the.
Some of the members blindfoldRay and take him up to the roof.
They then tell Ray that he hasto jump off as a final act of
initiation, just like in one ofhis favorite movies, the Game.

Speaker 1 (16:03):
That is so stupid.
Nobody would ask anybody tojump off the fucking roof.
That would be such a hugeliability.

Speaker 2 (16:10):
And then Ray wouldn't be like, oh yeah, totally.

Speaker 1 (16:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (16:14):
This will be fine, like he's completely like oh
yeah, this is a great idea.
He hesitates.
But then, when they assure himthat there is a pool in the
conference room, he does like no, that's way far.
Like yeah, he would not do it.
Yeah, his fellow freemasons areshocked this was only a hazing.

(16:37):
Now they now get to work on thecover-up.
So then there's there's likemore stuff about how they would
have covered it up, but I didn'tthink that that was too
pertinent.
No, I think that that theinformation I provide pretty
much covered the gist of the,the hypothesis.
Yeah, so then I put aplausibility rating of one out

(17:01):
of ten.

Speaker 1 (17:01):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I just I don't understand how
people can think like that.
I mean, I know it has somesecret rituals, but right, I, I
just I don't understand whypeople would go from like secret
rituals, like maybe like weirdhandshake or something, or you

(17:25):
know reciting some bullshit, tolike they make people jump off
roofs.

Speaker 2 (17:30):
I mean a lot of people are into that, like super
secret society.

Speaker 1 (17:34):
I know Secret order.

Speaker 2 (17:35):
Like I know, covert whatever.

Speaker 1 (17:37):
I blame the Da Vinci Code.

Speaker 2 (17:39):
And I'm like.
I'm like it's right in front ofyou, like it's not that covert.
No, it kind of reminds mealthough I don't know what goes
on but it reminds me of maybe amodern day, whatever, like
Gentleman's Club, where thoseold dudes would go and just
smoke cigars and drink brandyand pat each other on the back.

(18:01):
Is that kind of how it is?
Well, I don't know, I've neverbeen to one and pat each other
on the back.

Speaker 1 (18:03):
Is that kind of how it is?
Well, I don't know, I've neverbeen to one.
By the way, if you want someinsight into Freemasonry, go
watch Mozart's opera the MagicFlute, or Die Zuberflöte I don't
know how to pronounce it inGerman, but the Magic Flute.
It is the most adorable operaand it has one of the greatest

(18:27):
soprano.

Speaker 2 (18:27):
I have seen or listened to it as a child, but I
don't remember much of the plot, I just remember the music.
Yeah, and the music isenchanting the Queen of the
Nights aria.

Speaker 1 (18:37):
Yes, Probably one of my most favorite pieces of music
just the Queen of the Nightsaria.
But yeah, go watch it, it's fun, it's kid-friendly.
It's just the Queen of theNights aria, but yeah, go watch
it, it's fun, it's kid-friendly,it's very kid-friendly, it's a
lot of fun.
Little Papagino and hisPapagina Is that what the name
is?
I don't remember.
I just remember the sidecharacters were hilarious.

(18:57):
But I mean it's all about beingunited.

Speaker 2 (19:02):
I mean it's really quite a beautiful now our
listeners have homework yeah, gowatch it, even if you don't
care about it, just watch it.

Speaker 1 (19:10):
It's one.
It's a great little thing, um,particularly the 70s.
I think it's swedish version.
It's really adorable.

Speaker 2 (19:18):
Okay, okay, sorry, that's one, okay number two or
number seven, depending on howwe're counting down.
I still don't know if we'recounting down or counting up.
Haven't decided is drop byhelicopter.

Speaker 1 (19:37):
So wait, drop.
Wouldn't he have more, be morebanged up?

Speaker 2 (19:44):
he should be more banged up anyway, but here we go
.
So the next theory I want topresent is the infamous
Everything's infamous, eversince I incorrectly used
infamous last week.
I'm trying to get my revengeDropped by helicopter theory.

(20:04):
I'm trying to get my revengedropped by on myself.
Revenge on myself dropped byhelicopter theory.
This theory pauses that, due tothe improbability of Ray
landing at the location of thealleged entry point and in a
completely vertical position,nonetheless, it would be far

(20:26):
more likely for him, nonetheless, edge and tree point and in a
completely vertical position.
Nonetheless, it would be farmore likely to for him.
Nonetheless, what was Ithinking?
It would be far more likely forhim to have been dropped
directly from above the locationof landing, from, say, a
helicopter.
As Quinn, you have screen rantpoints out.
This scenario is extremelyimplausible, yeah, but it cannot

(20:50):
be completely ruled out, huh.
That's why I have placed ithere as the second least
plausible theory to suggest anexplanation of what happened,
while Detective Michael Bear,formerly of the Baltimore Police
Department, reported that therewere no helicopters who flew in
that area and that low, andMakita Brotman reported in her

(21:15):
book An Unexplained Death, ifyou recall that there were no
reported aircraft flying in thearea that night, according to
air traffic control reports.
She also reported that hotelemployee Gary Shivers reported
having seen a helicopter flyinglow in the area around the date

(21:37):
of Ray's disappearance.
However, as Detective MichaelBaer once again pointed out, if
this was the mechanism ofdisposing of Ray, why wouldn't
the helicopter deposit him in,like the harbor instead?
And a helicopter certainlywouldn't be a subtle method to

(21:58):
deliver Ray to the entry pointin the conference room of the
Belvedere.
As anyone knows, a low-flyinghelicopter is incredibly loud
and noticeable and would havecertainly been witnessed by
multiple Belvedere residents andAl-Bahr patrons.
However, one more checkmarktowards the plausibility meter

(22:23):
is that we may recall that onePorter Stansberry was the proud
owner of a helicopter which heused to arrive, in quote style
and quote, at Ray and Allison'sPuerto Rican beachside wedding.
So, as the kids say, yourchances of getting tossed out of

(22:44):
a helicopter through a hotelconference room window, not
window roof, are low but neverzero.
I rate this plausibility as twoOut of 10.
Out of 10.

Speaker 1 (22:59):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (23:02):
Okay, so that pretty much sums it up.
I don't know if I have anythingelse to say about the the
helicopter theory.
Only the only other thing I hadto say is that I couldn't find
out if proponents of this theorybelieve he would have been
tossed out of the helicopteralive, or dead yeah, and I

(23:25):
couldn't decide why would he bein a helicopter?

Speaker 1 (23:27):
did we go over that?

Speaker 2 (23:29):
well, I, I had thought if it was this scenario
where somebody he knew allegedlycalled him and could have been
like do you want a helicopterride, you know, over Baltimore?
And then he might have beenlike oh shit, yeah, and like

(23:51):
that could have been a reason.
Okay, right, mm-hmm, but yeah,that's unlikely, it's not.
It's very action movie.

Speaker 1 (24:02):
James Bond.

Speaker 2 (24:03):
Yeah, it's not very.
Yeah, exactly yeah.
What do you think if?
If he was thrown out of ahelicopter, do you think it
would be more plausible that hewould land in that vertical way

(24:25):
if he was alive or if he hadalready been killed and his body
was tossed out?

Speaker 1 (24:31):
I can't imagine that.
Either way, you would fallvertically, right.
Yeah, see, even even whenpeople jump, they don't
necessarily land vertically.
Oh no, that's another.

Speaker 2 (24:44):
That's another issue that we're going to get into a
little bit later.

Speaker 1 (24:48):
Oh, okay, yeah.

Speaker 2 (24:49):
But, yeah, like you would think, because I would
think, right, if he had beenthrown out against his will,
yeah, alive, that he would bekicking and flailing his arms,
yeah, right, yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:01):
And even if he were dead already, Then he would have
been yeah, and he would havebeen probably pushed out not
like I mean, it's dead weight,so he wouldn't have been like
picked up by his armpits anddropped.

Speaker 2 (25:14):
Yeah, that would have been and his limbs would have
been just like loose and yeahyeah, exactly yeah, no, i't
think, unless he had been likebound up like a mummy, which he
wasn't Right.

Speaker 1 (25:27):
Yeah, so we know.
But even then, I mean, if hewere dead when they tossed him
out, right, it's dead weight.
You can't, you're not going tobe lifting somebody from their
armpits to drop them vertically,you would carry them.

Speaker 2 (25:42):
Yeah, you know, very true, vertically you would carry
them, yeah, you know very true,or you would just roll them and
shove them off the side.
Oh, yeah, roll him likehorizontally, yeah, in which
case he wouldn't have landedlike that at all.
No, no, so yeah, pretty fuckingimplausible.
Yeah, okay, here is aninteresting one.
A piece of Belvedere moldingfell on Ray, so this theory is a

(26:08):
bit of an odd duck,hypothesized by Redditor Alien.
Underscore Mysteries.

Speaker 1 (26:18):
So there are aliens in this.

Speaker 2 (26:22):
There's not aliens, but presumably this person also
posits alien-esque conspiraciesand they have a YouTube account
as well.
Interesting on the night of hisdisappearance and then, upon

(26:45):
exiting, made his way to a sidestairwell that exits onto oh,
quote.
Made his way to a sidestairwell that exits onto North
Charles Street End, quote.
They allege in their posttitled, I believe, ray Rivera

(27:05):
was killed through terriblecoincidence, final.
They have several iterations ofthis hypothesis.
That's why it's called final,and this Reddit post was shared
on a subreddit of the same name,so I'm assuming it's their
subreddit that they made.

(27:26):
The subreddit is called alienunderscore mysteries, uh, which
this post.
This was posted, sorry,approximately four years ago.
This stairwell led up to theroof of the conference room.
Led up to the roof of theconference room where Ray's body
was found.

(27:47):
So they're alleging that Ray haddrinks at the Al Bar Then he
found this stairwell in the backof the Al Bar that supposedly
leads up to the roof of theconference room, and then he
made his way up there for somereason.
He was heading home and andmaybe he wandered off the wrong

(28:10):
way, or there was another wayoff the roof and he went there
and and was standing and takinga look, or just taking a pause,
or for whatever reason.
Once on the roof, I said raypaused to drink in the scenery
or anything.
I was going to say smoke, buthe didn't smoke.

(28:33):
And while standing up there apiece of the belvedere's ornate
cornice broke off and, with theassistance of a couple of
bounces off of other juttingbits of the Belvedere, took an
arched tumble straight down ontoRay's head, killing him
instantly and shoving his bodythrough the relatively weak

(28:56):
rooftop into the conference roombelow.
This entire hypothesis is hingedon a single comment made by
Makita Brotman on a Reddit AskMe Anything session, where she
responded to a question aboutwhether any research had been
done on the whole.

(29:16):
She referenced the analyst thatAllison hired and their
projections that Ray could havemade the jump from a running
start of 11 miles per hour andthat the independent analyst,
who she had also hired, hadconcluded the same.
She also mentioned that thehole looked more damaged from

(29:41):
inside the building than theoutside, and while she did not
mention any trace of bloodtissue or other physical
material on the inside of thehole, which is what the
questioner was asking about, shesaid, quote it was much more
destructive underneath than ontop, with collapsed girders and

(30:06):
plaster everywhere, end quote.
The Redditor, alien underscoreMysteries, has really seized
onto the phrase quote plastereverywhere, end quote to
extrapolate that this could becaused by the obliteration of
the alleged piece of cornicecoming apart upon impact.

(30:30):
Of course, this is probably justdrywall that makita is
referring to yeah, that wouldhave been my guess, and here I
have some images on that I canshow you.
Of course I don't have theimages.
I could post these images, buthere is the image that Alien

(30:56):
Underscore Mysteries is talkingabout.
Here is a piece that they haveoutlined in red that they
believe is a missing piece ofmolding on the outside of the
Belvedere.
That they believe is the piecethat fell off and hit Ray on the
head.
Some commenters didn't believethat they saw any piece missing

(31:19):
at all.

Speaker 1 (31:19):
I don't see anything.
It is.

Speaker 2 (31:24):
I thought I might see an inconsistency, but it's
difficult to tell if it is apiece that broke off or if it's
just an inconsistency in design.
And even if it is a piece thatbroke off, it would be
impossible to tell when it brokeoff right or how it came to be
that way.

(31:44):
It could have broken off duringconstruction yeah or any time
in the many, many years of thebelvedere's existence yeah, I
don't okay whatever.
And alien mystery and I alsosaid that even if the piece of
moldy or whatever exploded onimpact, surely ray would have

(32:08):
been pinned underneath it andwould have been covered in the
material?
Yeah, and why would that pieceof building take more damage
than the soft tissue of a humanbody?
Right, it wouldn't.
No, also, ray's head was prettydamaged, but most of the damage

(32:32):
seems to have been to his faceand cranium, not to the top of
his skull, like you would expectto find if something had landed
directly on top of his head or,as we'll talk about later, if
he had landed directly headfirst.
Right, the other thing thatreally rules this out is that

(32:53):
the Google images can't seem toverify that this alleged
stairwell to the top of theconference room from the Al Bar
even exists.
Yeah, from Google images andmultiple reports, it seems that
it doesn't exist.
It was not something that Irecall Makeda mentioning in her
book.
She did mention that there wasa stairwell, but it was a

(33:16):
stairwell leading up to the roofof the Belvedere, not up to the
roof of the conference room.
Yeah, if he could have gottenup there, it might be plausible,
although unlikely.
But given that the stairwelldoesn't seem to exist, that
lowers the plausibilitysignificantly.

(33:37):
And here's the images that Iwant to show you.
So here's alien mysteries image, and from this image and from
the line he's drawn, it makes itlook like there is a path.
Okay, but here, hang on.
Let me show you this otherimage.
But when you look at the samearea from a different angle, you

(33:58):
can see that there is no path.

Speaker 1 (34:01):
No, there is no path.

Speaker 2 (34:03):
You can't get up to the conference room roof that
way no, you'd have, you'd beclimbing all over exactly, yeah,
so unless ray was climbing allover all the rooftops of the
belvedere and he would have hadto take jumps and shit like that
yeah, yeah, so in case weforget to post the thing, the

(34:24):
area the so-called path has,like it looks like maybe air
conditioning units.

Speaker 1 (34:31):
It's got some raised.
Like he would have had to, hewould have had to do a lot of
climbing and jumping off ofthings.

Speaker 2 (34:37):
It's not a stairwell and a path to the conference
room roof.
No, it certainly is not, it'scertainly not so I would call

(35:00):
this theory maybe plausible ifhe could get up have gotten up
onto the roof at the stairwellhe went on a strange rant about
how Porter is innocent, with aspecial emphasis about the gag
order stuff and all of thelanguage that is very similar to

(35:23):
language that we've seen fromPorter's team and from people
who have made statements like onthe Crime Junkies podcast about
Ray Rivera I recommendlistening to that if you want to
hear an example of that whohave received a cease and desist
and had to make an officialkind of statement about

(35:46):
misspeaking about porter.
It contains very similarlanguage to that.
Now, it may just be that thisperson believes that porter is
innocent and so is using thosesources to construct a very
similar argument, or it may bethat this is somebody yeah yeah,

(36:07):
allegedly allegedly, allegedlyso yeah, but so, all told, I
rated this a four out of ten.
I thought that the the thoughtof something falling on him was
interesting, yeah, but when youlook at it closer, even if he

(36:31):
could have gotten up onto theroof, I don't think that the
mechanics of it would haveworked like that no, and it's
kind of.
It's kind of cartoonish, right.
Yeah, if you think about it,yeah, it is the kind of thing
that would be like you wouldn'texpect that to happen, but maybe
it could happen.

Speaker 1 (36:51):
It's not impossible, but it's improbable.

Speaker 2 (36:53):
Exactly, yeah, so that's why I rated it a four,
mm-hmm, maybe a 3.5.
Okay, okay, so number four,although after I put this
reading I regretted where Iplaced it is that someone threw

(37:13):
ray off the roof of the belfadil.
Okay, um, I didn't have a lotto say about this hypothesis,
because the physics of it justdon't work right.
So if the man himself wouldhave had to take a running start
getting up to 11 miles per hourand then thrown himself with as

(37:37):
much momentum as possible tohave made it to this spot, it's
not possible for someone else tohave thrown or pushed him off
with that amount of force.

Speaker 1 (37:50):
Yeah, no.

Speaker 2 (37:51):
Like he was not like a baby.

Speaker 1 (37:53):
No no, he's a full grown man.

Speaker 2 (37:56):
Yeah, he was a 250 pound 6'5 man.

Speaker 1 (38:01):
Yeah, like you cannot do it.
No, you're not just no, no.

Speaker 2 (38:06):
Unless, you're a giant.

Speaker 1 (38:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (38:09):
Even a giant cannot do it.

Speaker 1 (38:11):
No.

Speaker 2 (38:11):
You know, like you can't do it, no, so I probably
should have placed this higherbecause it's just not possible.
But I placed it here because,even though it's not possible,
this theory was given somecredibility.
Like in the media and in MakitaBrown's book Like it was given

(38:33):
like a whole, like chapter, ormaybe it wasn't a whole chapter,
but she gave this seriousconsideration and a lot of
people have given this theoryserious consideration and so
that's why I placed it where Idid, but I rated the
plausibility zero.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:54):
Would it have been possible if somebody say maybe
not threw him, but like took arun and like pushed him?

Speaker 2 (39:05):
Maybe if he was running with them, mm-hmm, like
I would think he would have hadto be running with them.

Speaker 1 (39:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (39:14):
Right, I mean he did have drag marks, but like, yeah,
again, like, how would you havethe strength to drag somebody?
Like, imagine if you're like,what's that sport where you like
swing that heavy ball around ina circle, or yeah, and then is
it shot, put right, yeah, yeah,and then you just throw it.

(39:36):
Like you would have to likebuild up enough momentum, right
yeah, build up enough momentum,right yeah, and you would have
to have an extraordinary amountof strength to build up enough
momentum to have launched him.

Speaker 1 (39:49):
You would have had to been like one of those
competitors You'd have to beenlike one of those people who can
pull the airplanes just bythemselves.
But I mean, how likely is that?

Speaker 2 (40:02):
Because somebody like that is very strong, but that
kind of strength doesn't have.

Speaker 1 (40:09):
It's not throwing strength, it's different,
exactly Catapult.
Yeah, maybe they got a catapultup on the thing and they were
drunk and like, hey, let's dothis 'll be fun.

Speaker 2 (40:24):
That's why the cameras were off I did not put
that down as a theory no, noit's our new theory um don't
take it out of context folksyeah, no disrespect to ray or
his family.
We do not seriously entertainthe idea that ray was launched

(40:47):
by a catapult, yeah okay, um, sothe next one is that ray was
hit by a car on the roof of theparking garage and that his body
flew off and down to the roofof the conference room.
Okay, so this hypothesis seemsto have originated from the Oval

(41:14):
Mask, spelled M-A-S-Q-U-E, andwas presented on the Unsolved
Mystery subreddit about fouryears ago.
This Redditor and their sisterwere watching the Unsolved
Mysteries episode when,according to the post, op's

(41:35):
sister attempted to calculateRay's trajectory from the
highest possible point and foundthat scenario unlikely.
In discussing scenarios, thetwo came up with an alternative
explanation that although thedistance to the parking garage
was 20 feet, which was still asignificant distance, although

(42:01):
it's less than half the 45 feetthat he would have had to, 45
feet out yeah, that he wouldhave had to go from the very top
of the Belvedere, it's still asignificant distance.
That the force of the vehicularimpact, of the vehicular impact

(42:23):
a vehicular impact would havecaused significant momentum to
drive Ray's body out far enoughto reach the point if alleged
impact in the conference roomran.
This, whatever I was writing,is a mess.
Let me start over.

(42:45):
Okay, although the distance tothe parking garage was 20 feet,
which is still a significantdistance, the force of a
vehicular impact could havecaused significant enough
momentum to drive Ray's body outfar enough to reach the entry
point of the alleged impact inthe conference room, 20 feet

(43:09):
away.
They also hypothesized thatthis would explain the damage to
Ray's right shin pelvis andtesticular damage.
They also postulated that thiswas why Ray was never spotted in
or on top of the Belvedere,because he never entered the
hotel, but only the parkinggarage.

(43:31):
While this hypothesis does havea lot more plausibility than
previous theories, there aresome major issues with this one
as well.
A point in favor of this one isthat multiple external experts
have weighed in that Ray'sinjuries are consistent with a
car accident or blunt forcetrauma.

(43:52):
However, there are concernsabout whether or not and it also
is consistent with what allisonreported that the medical
examiner told her personallythat the leg injuries were not
consistent with the fall rightum.
However, there are concernsabout whether or not the short

(44:16):
length of the parking garagewould allow enough space for
acceleration to speed sufficientwhich they estimated to be 35
miles per hour to throw Ray'sbody onto the conference room
roof.
However, the point that reallykills this theory is that,

(44:40):
according to the calculations ofMiriam Moya, author of Ray
Rivera's Suicide or Homicide,who we're going to talk about
more later, but who, accordingto her website with the aid of
Google Translate, is amultidisciplinary forensic and

(45:02):
judicial expert and one of thebest reconstructionists in
Europe.
Her multidisciplinaryspecialties are traffic
accidents, impact biomechanicsand crime scenes.
She works in Spain's Ministryof Justice in the Forensics
Department and teaches in theUnited Nations University and
the European UniversityInstitute Postgraduate Program.

(45:25):
And you're probably like whythe fuck do?

Speaker 1 (45:28):
I care.

Speaker 2 (45:30):
But you're going to care.
More on her findings later.
But it was her analysis thatfound it would have been
impossible for Ray Rivera tohave leapt or been thrown from
the roof of the parking garageand have landed on the
conference room roof at thatlocation in anything other than

(45:50):
a horizontal position, whichwould have made that impact
whole impossible Exactly.
However, we know, know.
Oh, there I go.
We know from the alleged impactcrater that ray would have
landed, have had to have landedin a completely vertical

(46:13):
position, so this theory isruled out.
It is, however, not toofar-fetched, and I do give
credit to its authors for apretty smart hypothesis, so I
rated this a 5 out of 10.
Okay, what do you think aboutthat one?

Speaker 1 (46:34):
Yeah, I mean, other than the fact that he would have
gone horizontal, it seems likeit would probably have been more
probable, especially becauseyou and I have both
independently researched theinjuries and it is more similar
to being hit by a car than byjumping, and the other thing

(46:57):
that they didn't really go into,but like what would compel him
to have gone up to the top ofthe parking garage.

Speaker 2 (47:06):
That's another thing that I thought about.

Speaker 1 (47:08):
Yeah, why would he be there?
Yeah, that's what I wasthinking Like.
Does he have a car there?

Speaker 2 (47:13):
Exactly.
I mean, he was like parked likenear there, uh-huh, but like
why, yeah?
Is he supposed to meet somebody?

Speaker 1 (47:21):
Well, yeah that would be my thought.
So his car wasn't in theparking garage.
No, it was near the parkinggarage.

Speaker 2 (47:31):
It was near the parking garage, okay, so we
finished the car on the roof.

Speaker 1 (47:38):
Yeah, what did you rate it?

Speaker 2 (47:40):
I rated it a five.
Okay, number six is Raycommitted suicide.
Okay, here's the part where mymy uh written notes say see
image photos.
For this note we're gonna readray's note.
That was taped or what we guessis written by ray yeah, we don't

(48:06):
100 know for sure it wasprobably written by ray, yeah,
but we could also possibly saymaybe it was written by someone
else and planted right, butwe're gonna assume it.
Assume that it was probably Ray, okay.
Okay, I have to zoom in becausethis is really small and this

(48:32):
was another Redditor whotranscribed this.
So this is their transcriptionof it, based on images, based on
the image from the unsolvedmysteries.
So, if you recall what I saidin the last episode, the note

(48:54):
was like typewritten, likereally teeny tiny yeah, and so
there's.
Some people took stills of the.
They like showed some picturesof the note briefly on unsolved
mysteries, and some enterprisingindividuals took stills of it

(49:16):
and blew it up and tried totranscribe it.
Okay and so this is God.

Speaker 1 (49:22):
There are some nerds out there.
I love it, I love it.
So this is God.
There are some nerds out there,I love it, I love it.
This is one of those attempts,so Take it with a grain of salt,
yeah.

Speaker 2 (49:31):
They did their best work.
Okay, all right.
Brothers and sisters, right now, around the world, volcanoes
are erupting.
What an awesome sight.
Virtue and more non-separable.
What virtue unites, death willnot separate.

(49:55):
That was a well-played game.
Congratulations to all whoparticipated.
I hope you enjoyed it, but itwas time to wake up.
So here I am.
I'd like to welcome those whoaccepted our invitations for
membership during the game.
We couldn't have done itwithout you.

(50:17):
I look on this endeavor to findthe truth, but for its own sake,
in accepting this quest for thetruth, I hope to awaken myself,
with the help of others, into aman ready and worthy to receive
it.
Members of the Council, pleasenote that I will lend peaceful

(50:40):
concentration to the traditionalresponsibilities.
In light of these proceedings,I will gladly request of this
council within the appropriatetime.
Again, well done to all whoparticipated.
I accept or expect.

(51:03):
The council has invited all theplayers who gave their lives to
this pursuit so that they mightjoin us Hence here or there Tom
Hitting, Rayburn Blackholder,john something Travolta I
believe it is Stanley Kubrick.

(51:25):
Fare thee well, rob or BobRosenberg.
Before I continue with myinstructions for the council and
dates taken the prizes for myservice, I'd like to allow
Porter Stansberry to choose hisprize Now.

(51:45):
Porter, won't something Wordsby claiming something I'll just
take back Now that the game isfinished.
I expect the council torecompensate this is interesting
because that's not a word Rightthose who have given to this

(52:07):
venture, along with myself.
These players should be madefive years younger by the
council.
Rivera blank Rivera, allisonJones, elena Rivera, angel
Rivera, my dad, angel Rivera, mybrother, brad Hogg, skipping

(52:32):
the name part for now, that wasthe notes of the transcriber,
porter Stansberry.
He didn't do it himself, porterStansberry, he didn't do it
himself.
Brothers and Sisters, our landof achievements has seen many
ideas become new innovationssince my game has begun Radio

(52:54):
Frequency Identification,digital Music Players, portable
and Otherwise.
Something Blotted Out by waterdamage, the blotted out by water
damage, symphony Blotted out bywater damage systems, something
else blotted out by waterdamage.

(53:15):
Something else blotted out bywater damage to drill and shale,
water damage.
Dvd, hdvd, hdvo, water damage,rv, the human genome, genetic
engineering, cloning, sudoku,water damage, the Ford cell,

(53:41):
overnight express shipping,wi-fi, internet, ethernet
something water damage.
Mpeg, jpeg, mp3, aff,invisalign, the DE water damage,
robot, muscle milk.
The rights, patents andproceeds for all of them should

(54:05):
have been transferred to me bynow.
I know that our something,porter Stansberry, has created a
way for you to do so In Europe.
You can't visit me in the flatin Venice or Madrid, although if
I'm in Spain, I'll probably bein the Obey question mark.

(54:27):
In Asia, you'll be able to findme in Thailand.
Another job well done, porter.
I will keep the bad houses inLas Feliz, california, and this
one house in San Francisco,although I'll be looking for a
new place in Baltimore andperhaps some other cities.

(54:47):
I'd like to briefly mention somemovies, books and music I found
very inspiring and compelling.
I'd like to meet any of you whohelped contribute to these
works the Matrix 1, 2, and 3.
The Family man, nationalTreasure, the Da Vinci Code Eyes

(55:07):
Wide Shut, confessions on theDance Floor, demon Days, ten
Emperor's Tales.
Maybe November Rain Horse slash, home by Nove, they don't know.
Meet joe block.
Minority report, star wars, onethrough three, lord of the

(55:33):
rings, one through three, fightclub sloven.
The game payback.
And specifically, let me saythat I expect M Night Shyamalan
to continue coming up with greatideas and great movies.
I certainly enjoyed his moviesthe Sixth Sense, the Village,

(55:55):
the Others Signs UnforgettableFinal Section Could Barely Read.

Speaker 1 (56:01):
You know what that sounds like to me.
Yes, found poetry, it soundslike to me found poetry.
It sounds like slam poetry, notslam found found poetry.
What is that so?
Um, when I was in high schooland I was doing creative writing
and I I would write a lot ofpoetry, uh, one of the things
you can do, particularly ifyou're kind of like stuck or

(56:22):
whatever, is just take thingsright, like write down things
that you see, snippets of thingsyou hear, and you just sort of
just word vomit it essentiallyand just let it go, and
sometimes it'll make sense andsometimes it doesn't, but the

(56:42):
point is just to kind of getyour brain working.
Yeah, you know, some people doit really well, where they can
take things and then make a poemthat actually sounds like
something Mm-hmm, but a lot oftimes it just sounds like
nonsense.
Yeah, and so to me that's whatthat sounds like.
Yeah, and so to me that's whatthat's like.

(57:02):
I almost immediately was likeyou know, I've written similar
things around that same time,that is a hypothesis that people
have that this is a writingtechnique.

Speaker 2 (57:25):
Yeah, although I mean , I have never poet, but you
know writers, we all were dumb.
I mean, yeah, you know, I thinkRay Bradbury did a lot.
You know writers, we all weredumb.
I mean, yeah, you know, I thinkray bradbury did that a lot.
You know, I had never heardthat term found poetry, so I
will have to look that up.

Speaker 1 (57:33):
Yeah, that is some kind of writing technique, that
that he's like just free writing, um, yeah, letting ideas flow,
and that it will hopefully turninto something like maybe like
these, these actors, thesemovies like this is the kind of
feel that he's going for yeah, alot, yeah, if you're, if you're

(57:56):
ever stuck, if you ever havewriter's block, a lot of the
advice is just write, gibberishjust yeah just put words on
paper and maybe something willhit.
I mean, if people read myjournal, it would be a lot of
that.
It would make absolutely nosense.
I would come off sounding likea psycho or something.

Speaker 2 (58:15):
That's what I had thought too, and I think we also
didn't.
We talk about that a little bitwith, like some of the Lucy
Leppie notes in writing as wellyeah, that if you take certain
things out of context, you canextrapolate a lot of hypotheses
from them.

Speaker 1 (58:34):
Yeah, yeah, you got to be careful when you're
looking at somebody who's awriter, because you're compelled
to just write shit down all thetime and it doesn't make sense.

Speaker 2 (58:47):
yeah so there are some spots.
I want to draw it now.
The fbi, or whatever, uh, foundthat they didn't find this note
to be consistent with thesuicide yeah, no, I don't see in
any way how that's a suicidenote however, some people do
believe that they have foundmessages or whatever within it

(59:11):
that you know could be signs ofa suicide, although they're not.
It's not written in the typical, of course, fashion.
The suicide notes are writtenin right, right and like
typically if you write a suicidenote, you don't like it was
taped up really small and tapedonto the back of his computer

(59:36):
like it was really kind ofhidden away.

Speaker 1 (59:37):
Yeah, that's that's weird.

Speaker 2 (59:38):
Yeah, that is weird right, and another thing could
be what if this was somethingthat he wrote, which we're
supposed to be talking about?
Only suicide?
But what if this was somethingthat he wrote?
And then somebody maybe hadaccess to his computer and was
like this sounds weird, let'sput this here like this and make

(01:00:00):
it look weirder.
That could be a thing that Ihad thought about as well, but,
um, okay, so let me read backsome phrases that people think
yeah point to suicide okay.
Whom virtue unites, death willnot separate.

(01:00:21):
Yeah, so isn't this like aFreemasons pledge or something?
like that I don't know.
I know this part, brothers andsisters.
Yeah, I believe that.
No, the volcanoes are erupting.
Part.
That's random, but I believethat whom virtue unites, death

(01:00:42):
will not separate is.
And that was written in latinbut it's interpreted I believe
that that is supposed to be likea freemasons thing.
That really, that phrase reallyexcites the freemason
hypothesis people and it alsogets the suicide hypothesis
people going.

(01:01:02):
This part as well, the partright after this, was a
well-played game.
Congratulations to all whoparticipated.
I hope you enjoyed it, but itwas time to wake up.
So here I am, the players whogave their lives to this pursuit
.
Now the game is finished, Iexpect the council to

(01:01:26):
recompensate those who havegiven to this venture along with
myself.
These players should be madefive years younger by the
council Bunch of his family andfriends.
Yeah, those are really theparts.

Speaker 1 (01:01:39):
Yeah, I don't.
None of that seems yeah Like no.
None of that seems yeah Like nono.
Some people are like I, wouldbe more convinced that To me
it's not this.
But if somebody's going to saythat it's not, a writing
exercise.
Is that like he had a psychoticbreak or something?

Speaker 2 (01:02:02):
Well, that's our.

Speaker 1 (01:02:03):
I know, I know but like I don't think any of those
things.
Yeah, really no, because I mean, if you think he mentions the
da vinci code there, right, likethat point in time people were
all into that um like secretsocieties and stuff, and it's
not like, and none of that isstuff that isn't readily
available for everybody to know,Even in 2006,.

(01:02:26):
Internet standards they wereavailable everywhere.
It's not a secret.
So it's not like he wentthrough some actual secret right
.

Speaker 2 (01:02:39):
That is public public knowledge all of that yeah, so
there's a definitely a lot ofdifferent hypotheses around this
note.
So yeah, but I wanted to getyour views first on whether or
not you I don't think it's asuicide note.

Speaker 1 (01:02:55):
Yeah I agree lots of people can talk about death and
not commit suicide and a lot ofpeople commit suicide don't
necessarily talk about deathyeah, and like he doesn't really
even really talk about itexactly.
Yeah, I think I think that'sreading a little too far into it
right, I agree.

Speaker 2 (01:03:15):
So some other hypothesis around the note that
is not psychosis are of coursethe writing exercise one right
that he was writing in code toallison in some way, that he was
writing a blackmail letter incode to porter or someone else
associated.

Speaker 1 (01:03:37):
Okay, I mean some of that stuff points to him, maybe
questioning Porter's doings.

Speaker 2 (01:03:46):
He mentions Porter a lot and there are some phrases
where he's like Porter didn't doit himself.

Speaker 1 (01:03:55):
Yeah, stuff like that .
Yeah, that's what I mean, whereit's like, hmm, it's a little
yeah, there is anotherconnection and here is another.

Speaker 2 (01:04:07):
Yeah, like I said, hypothesis is that maybe someone
else wrote it and placed itthere to present a certain
concept of Ray, or that, like Isaid, said right now that it
existed and then someone waslike print, yeah, and put it

(01:04:31):
back there, uh, to again presenta certain image of ray.
Another thing that possiblyties in with that remember last
episode when we talked about howthe cops that had raised
computer and when allison wentto pick it up, they reported

(01:04:51):
that somebody had been callingand repeatedly trying to get the
cops to release the computerinto their recognizance
Recognizance is that applicableto computers?
They were trying to get itreleased to them, but they

(01:05:12):
couldn't say who it was, and sothat possibly speaks to somebody
who wanted something that wason the computer, but there's no,
there is nothing that indicateswe found this on ray's computer
yeah even like.

(01:05:33):
We found a file of this note onray's computer right there's
nothing like that.
Yeah, now, that doesn't meanthey didn't find that
information it just means thatthey didn't report that they
found it.
There is an astounding amount ofinformation that they didn't
report on or that seems to have.
The information seems to havejust trickled off into not

(01:05:56):
reporting it or nothing happenedwith it.
We had talked a lot in otherepisodes as well about reasons

(01:06:29):
why people think that Raywouldn't have committed suicide,
that he didn't have a historyof mental illness, that he
seemed to have a really positiveoutlook on life.
In miriam moya's book shetalked not a long.
She talked about like howpeople have like attributes that
are considered like riskfactors for suicide, like
depression, like, um, trying tomake amends right with with your
loved ones, trying to give awayyour possessions, withdrawing
things of that nature, right,and that Ray didn't have any of

(01:06:52):
those.
Like he was acting a bit odd,right, and we'll get into that,
but the pattern of his behaviorwasn't necessarily consistent
with a suicidal pattern, yeah,no.
And she also talked about howRay had these positive

(01:07:12):
attributes that people associatewith low suicide risk factor.
Right, he was financiallystable, he was in a stable
relationship, he had a reallystrong family support system.
He was religious he wasn't likesuper religious.
We had like a church community,yeah, um.
And he had like a positiveoutlook on life.

(01:07:37):
He had these plans for thefuture and these are all things
that decrease, right, your riskfactors for suicide.
Yeah, and makita broughtman doestalk about how you know these
cases where people didn't havethose kinds of, like obvious

(01:07:58):
symptoms, right, yeah, woke upand it seemed like they they
committed suicide.
However, in that chapter, whenshe dug into their cases, they
did have underlying factors,yeah, and people just didn't
really notice them.
Yeah, and when you dig intoray's case, like he didn't

(01:08:19):
really have those underlyingfactors some people talk about,
oh, like he had all this debt,right, because they had talked
about, right, that didn't comeout good, how he had this,
whatever, like that $80,000 debtto Agora, but that wasn't like
a debt debt if that makes sense.

(01:08:39):
That was supposed to be moneythat was lent, that he was going
to be compensated for, and thensome when he turned in his
video that he had done for thatOxford Club conference, and so
that was not an issue that wouldhave been weighing on his mind.
It didn't become an issue untilhe passed away.

(01:09:02):
Right, the only debt that theyreally had was the $15,000 of
debt on Allison's credit card,which, in their financial
position, seemed like an amountthat they could handle, and so
that wasn't really aconsideration either.
That wasn't really aconsideration either.

(01:09:22):
So yeah, it's not to say thatagain.
He couldn't.
Some people hypothesize thatmaybe he committed suicide, like
under duress, right, like thatsomebody said to him like you
better do this or bad thingswill happen right.
Yeah, and I guess that ispossible.

(01:09:45):
Right, but wouldn't it justhave been easier to kill him
than to do that?

Speaker 1 (01:09:51):
Yeah Well, you'd be less likely to be arrested for
it if they did it themselves.
I mean, it's only been recentlythat people have been starting
to get arrested for coercingsomebody to commit suicide, but
still, I don't think that thatwould be.

(01:10:11):
I don't know.
I don't feel like he seemedlike somebody who would
automatically think that itwould have had to have been
years-long people fucking withhim.
Very true, and that is possible.

Speaker 2 (01:10:32):
And, of course, the method right was a method that
he would have been most averseto.
He had a very known fear ofheights, to the point where yeah
, no, then he wouldn't have donethat.

Speaker 1 (01:10:50):
Yeah, exactly no.

Speaker 2 (01:10:51):
His brother, angel, reported that he wouldn't even
like to climb up a short ladderto place the star on top of a
Christmas tree.

Speaker 1 (01:11:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:11:01):
So it seems highly unlikely that, even if he had
been compelled or desired tocommit suicide of his own accord
, that that would have been themethod that he would have chosen
.
I don't know if he was a gunowner.
I couldn't find any informationon that.
I don't know if he was a gunowner.
I couldn't find any informationon that, but death by gunshot

(01:11:21):
is a the most typical way for amale to do it.
Exactly, I would think that likeit wouldn't be that hard to
obtain a gun on the street.
No, I mean, I don't want tolike go over different methods
of suicide, but I would havethought he would have chosen
something else, there were somany other easier ways.

Speaker 1 (01:11:41):
Exactly that wouldn't have, I mean, unless he was a
masochist, that's not the way hewould have done it.

Speaker 2 (01:11:49):
I mean that's not information, but it doesn't seem
like he was right from theinformation presented.

Speaker 1 (01:11:56):
Yeah, no, no, there would be evidence.
If he was a masochist, you know, like if you, if he was a
masochist, then yes, he wouldhave climbed the ladder and put
the star on the tree, exactly,yeah, I, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:12:12):
That makes it even less likely that he committed
suicide makita had like a wholebit about jumpers right and how
they have a real highimpulsivity level and while she
did talk about right likeinstances in his youth where he

(01:12:34):
was known to have somewhat of atemper and how right he was said
to have argued with hisOlympics coach that got him
kicked off of the Olympic teambut those stories were all when
he was quite young and it didn'tseem like in his later years

(01:12:54):
there was any kind of instancethat indicated an impulsive
nature.

Speaker 1 (01:13:01):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:13:02):
It seemed quite steady, yeah, so yeah, all of
those things seem to pointtowards no Right, I didn't put
in like accident in terms oflike whoops, I tripped and I
fell off the roof, because thatis as unlikely as him being

(01:13:24):
tossed.

Speaker 1 (01:13:25):
Like if he had just tripped he wouldn't have gone on
the roof.

Speaker 2 (01:13:28):
No well, he wouldn't have gone on the roof exactly.
But even if he had been likestanding on the edge of the roof
and like tripped, he would havejust gone straight down and
certainly not to that spot Right.
Tripped, he would have justgone straight down and certainly
not to that spot Right.
I put the plausibility ofsuicide as a seven, which I
thought was pretty generous.

(01:13:49):
It's very generous.
I thought that, yeah, I thoughtthat was quite generous, but I
know that a lot of people reallyconsider suicide and I know
that that was like the officialverdict right.

Speaker 1 (01:14:07):
Yeah, it just doesn't feel right, exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:14:11):
And there's a lot of instances right where the family
and stuff is like this doesn'tmatch so-and-so.
And then when you dig into it,like it kind of does.
But this is not one of thosecases no it's not Both in, yeah,
any of the characteristics ofRay, his life or in the method

(01:14:32):
of his death.

Speaker 1 (01:14:33):
Yeah, yeah.
So again, improbable, yes, butnot impossible.

Speaker 2 (01:14:39):
But very improbable, yeah, yeah.
So again, improbable, yes, butnot impossible, but very
improbable, yeah, okay.
So number seven is that Raydove off the roof under a
delusion of grandeur caused bypsychosis.
Okay, now remember how we readthe note, and I said that the
FBI had ruled that it was not asuicide note.
Yeah, however, they did rulethat it had patterns consistent

(01:15:04):
with psychosis, and their rulingwas that Ray was under an
episode of psychosis, and for along time I'm kind of giving my
spoilers away For a long time.
That was what I believed andagreed with, because I did agree

(01:15:25):
that the message has a lot ofpatterns consistent with
psychosis and that that type ofbehavior might be consistent
with the dilution of grandeur.

Speaker 1 (01:15:40):
Because Of all the council bits and stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:15:45):
It kind of sounds like he's giving a speech,
exactly Like you're giving aspeech, like there's celebrities
there, mountains are exploding.
Yeah, we're going to givepeople back years of their life.
He's going to get all thesehouses and all these great
places.
And people have talked aboutthis list of movies.

(01:16:09):
Right, one of the movies theGame is a movie that stars, I
guess, alec Baldwin, if I'mremembering correctly, and they
talked about this in the episodeof Unsolved Mysteries and that
as part of this, in this AlecBaldwin is this dude who's got

(01:16:33):
like a good job or whatever.
I'm sorry if you I've neveractually seen this movie.
So if you've seen this movieand you're like you're
butchering the story, I'm sosorry.
Uh, but he's like disillusionedwith his life or whatever.
And then he I gets invited toplay this whatever like game you
know like life is a game andwe're playing this.

(01:16:55):
Rich people like you know mindfuck kind of game and part of
this game where I guess near theend right, he has to jump
through a glass ceiling, throughlike a building.
He jumps through this glassceiling and then he like wins

(01:17:17):
the game or something like that,and the glass ceiling dome kind
of looks like the dome ceilingsthat are on the roof of the
conference room.
Yeah, people hypothesize that heand the FBI people, the FBI

(01:17:39):
also hypothesize that hebelieved that he was, you know,
breaking through, you know likesome kind of simulation, like
the Matrix or something, andthat he is going to gain
something immortality or somekind of something.

Speaker 1 (01:17:57):
Yeah, Right, I can kind of see that.

Speaker 2 (01:17:59):
And if you are under an episode of psychosis, you
know your brain is what isprocessing all the sensations
around you, right, and tellingyou what's real, and when you're
under psychosis, your brain istelling you that things that are
not real are real, and so it'svery difficult to distinguish,

(01:18:26):
and near impossible todistinguish, what is actually
real from what is part of thedilution, and you can't really
tell right, because that's theinformation that your brain is
giving you, right, and so thatwould be a reason that would

(01:18:46):
compel him to do something thatwould totally not be something
that he would ever, ever, everdo Right In normal circumstances
.
And disorders likeschizophrenia and bipolar
disorder those are the mostcommon disorders that cause

(01:19:09):
episodes of psychosis.
Yeah, other kinds of things,like some kind of drugs, can
cause episodes of psychosis.
However, he was clean, right hewas clean right, and he didn't
have a history of any of thateither, and so this does seem
very possible and very possible.
And Ray was acting odd right.

(01:19:33):
He was acting kind of paranoid.

Speaker 1 (01:19:37):
Yeah, the break-in things that might have been the
score.

Speaker 2 (01:19:41):
He was acting kind of paranoid.
He was acting the break-inthings that might have been the
squirrel.

Speaker 1 (01:19:45):
Yes, the break-in thing.
Well, it was definitely not asquirrel.
Well, no, I know.

Speaker 2 (01:19:48):
I was just remembering the squirrel thing,
the break-in things and hisbehavior and him going to the
track with Allison, him gettingexcited and calling Porter and
saying I figured it out.
Those are kind of slightly oddbehaviors.
Yeah, and also his friend, tom.

(01:20:10):
Did I just mention the name TomHiddleston or something like
that?
I'm so sorry that I forget thisman's name.
I don't think he was friendswith tom hiddleston or something
like that.
I'm so sorry that I forget thisman's name I don't think he was
friends with tom hiddlestonthat's an actor.
Yes, his name was tom.
God, I would have to go back tomy other, the, the, the

(01:20:31):
gentleman who was a, a tvevangelist who passed away in in
a car accident under slightlyweird circumstances in africa
and was also associated withagora.
Um allison said that that raywas that that those
circumstances made ray reallynervous yeah and so those kinds

(01:20:53):
of things could be taken as likehe's getting paranoid, like
he's having like paranoiddelusions.
Yeah, so from what I presentedso far, psychosis with the
delusion of grandeur seemshighly compelling.
Yes, as a rationale to explainwhat happened, mm-hmm.

(01:21:17):
However, here's a few reasonswhy it may not be as compelling.
Okay, hit me with it.
Yeah, so Ray did not have anyfamily history of psychosis

(01:21:39):
related disorders.
Okay, and psychosis relateddisorders have quite a high rate
of heritability.
Yes, for psychosis or sorry,for schizophrenia.
Schizophrenia is highly linkedto heritability, with studies

(01:22:00):
showing a range of 60 to 90%heritability.
Yeah, with many papers I readsaying 90 is closer to the range
, right?
Schizophrenia also typicallymanifests in men in their early
to mid-20s, while it canmanifest, while it tends to

(01:22:24):
manifest a bit later in women.
Ray was in his early to mid-30s.
He was 33, I want to say so.
While it is not impossible,it's improbable.
He would have been an outlier.
Yeah, in both age andheritability.
For the disorder yeah, samething for bipolar right.

(01:22:47):
According to jama, the journalof the american medical
association, the heritabilityassociation for Bipolar Disorder
is possibly even higher.
While some sources reported arange of heritability as wide as
44 to 90 percent, jamapsychiatry reported a range of

(01:23:09):
70 to 90 percent and called abipolar disorder quote highly
heritable.
Age of onset for bipolardisorder was even younger than
schizophrenia.

Speaker 1 (01:23:21):
Yeah, you figure that out, pretty young yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:23:24):
Like teenage.
Yeah, yeah, typically betweenthe ages of 15 and 19.
Yeah, and while they said itcould manifest at any age, it
almost never manifests after age40.
So at age 33, ray was notoutside of that range, but again
he would have been an outlierin heritability and age of onset

(01:23:46):
occurrence.

Speaker 1 (01:23:47):
But there's also, like with bipolar disorder, like
there's obvious signs.
Yes, and aside from a handfulof like odd behaviors, that's
not bipolar.

Speaker 2 (01:24:00):
Yes, there definitely are signs.
Right, and with schizophreniaas well.
Right, with bipolar.
Right, you get the manic anddepressive phases.
With schizophrenia, you tend toget like catatonic behavior.

(01:24:22):
Um, that's, I mean, there'sdefinitely more to it, so that's
just like yeah, real servicelevel but, aside from that
slightly odd behavior, peopledidn't really notice right
around him that he wasn't actinglike super out of character,
right, right, and especially Iwould think that his wife would

(01:24:47):
notice.
So, and here is the other thingthat I find to be like hey,
wait a second.
So in certain circumstancesthat we had mentioned earlier,
ray was acting odd, but oddoccurrences that were verifiable
were happening.

(01:25:09):
So he acted odd when his homewas broken into or attempted to
be broken into twice, right, twonights in a row.
Yeah, that is a verifiableoccurrence, yes, right.
And it's a weird and scaryoccurrence, yes, so it's not

(01:25:33):
typically with.
Of course, these things canhappen, right, and if you were
experiencing psychosis,certainly that could be a
terrifying circumstance, butit's terrifying even without it
People trying to break into yourhouse Absolutely.
But what to me would be morecompelling would be instances of

(01:25:58):
those kinds of reactions tomundane occurrences.
Yes yeah, that's the kind ofthing that you look for with
psychosis yeah, that which isordinary and mundane, causing
paranoia paranoia that that rayis suddenly, or with delusions

(01:26:25):
of grandeur, that ray issuddenly, yeah, acting grandiose
, taking extravagant risks,thinking that that he is
somebody really really important, yeah, or that he can do
something really important orpowerful, like a superhero or
like the president or god even.

(01:26:49):
Yeah, those are the kinds ofthings that people, under
delusions of grandeur, believe,right.
Well, if you're experiencinglike paranoia with psychosis,
you know you might believe that,like somebody is laughing at
you if they didn't say anythingat all.

(01:27:11):
You might believe that somebodyis listening to you.
You might believe thegovernment is tapping your home
yeah, you might believe, youknow that somebody is coming to
get you.
You might believe that aliensare going to abduct you, right
things of that nature, and hewould probably want to share
those things with his wifebecause he would sincerely

(01:27:33):
believe them to be real.
He would not know that they'renot, that they're not real, yeah
, and so if he was feeling likescared, like something outsized
is coming, coming to get him, hewould want to protect her and
he would want to tell her hey, Ilearned about this thing, right

(01:27:54):
, and she would be like whoa,that's not a thing, babe, right,
right, yeah, so it's, it's nottrue that you just wouldn't
fucking notice, yeah, the signsyou wouldn't notice I have a
question though can you justhave a psychotic break without
there being an underlying issue?
I don't know.

(01:28:14):
That's a good question.
There's another kind ofdisorder it's called like
schizoaffective disorder, whohave psychosis and it's not

(01:28:39):
caused by like a substance abuseand but it doesn't quite fit
the symptoms of likeschizophrenia or, uh, bipolar.
But they have like two types ofit.
They have a type that's calledlike depressive schizoaffective

(01:28:59):
disorder, that's like closer toschizophrenia, and then they
have a type that is closer tobipolar, that's more manic.
I don't know if you can just gointo psychosis without any
reason at all.
Did you find something?

Speaker 1 (01:29:19):
So when I looked it up, it said it can be a symptom
of serious mental healthconditions such as schizophrenia
, bipolar disorder or severedepression.
But it can also occur on itsown.

Speaker 2 (01:29:29):
Did they say under what circumstances or why that
would occur?

Speaker 1 (01:29:34):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:29:34):
I haven't read the whole thing, although I would
think that, even if it occurredon its own, there would have to
have been some sort ofunderlying trauma, not mental
illness necessarily underlyingcause, but maybe the doctors

(01:29:56):
don't know what that underlyingcause is, because there of
course is a like neurologicalmechanisms right that cause
psychosis, and I I don't knowall of them, but one of the main
mechanisms oh wait, here I have.

Speaker 1 (01:30:11):
I have information.
It says it is possible toexperience psychosis without
having a mental illness.
This is called secondarypsychosis and it can be caused
by a number of other factors,including drug or alcohol misuse
, a physical condition like abrain tumor, dementia or HIV,
aids, a side effect ofprescription medication, a head

(01:30:31):
injury, childbirth, a traumaticexperience and usually high
levels of stress or anxiety.
A traumatic experience andusually high levels of stress or
anxiety.
They are usually short-livedand can be treated by addressing
the underlying conditions.
Symptoms include changes inthinking, behavior, feelings,
hallucinations, delusions.
It still feels like it wouldn'thave been instantaneous, though

(01:30:53):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:31:07):
I mean now, what I was going to say about psychosis
is that what I know about themechanism of it, which is a very
simplistic understanding so ifyou're like a doctor or a
psychiatrist, don't at me Isthat it's caused by like an
excessive flood of dopamine,yeah, like a shit ton of
dopamine in your brain, yeah.
So, yeah, I would think thatsomething I was going to say,
that something that caused thatkind of mechanism, but I could,

(01:31:31):
but still, there has to be atrigger, and he doesn't seem to
have any triggers in his life.

Speaker 1 (01:31:34):
That's what I was going to say, unless he was
stressed out about something anddidn't ultimately share life.
That's what I was going to say,unless he was stressed out
about something and didn'tultimately share it.

Speaker 2 (01:31:39):
That was what I was going to say.
Like if there is externalfactors right, there are
external factors that arecausing that stress, then that
could have caused it, but thoseexternal factors, what are those
external factors at play, andare those also a factor Right In

(01:32:00):
his death?

Speaker 1 (01:32:01):
Yeah, because I was also thinking, you know like I
suffer from anxiety.
Yeah, and often it is thingsthat are never going to happen
Not in a million years, right,you know, but they can be.
So maybe it's the word acutethat it can feel like they're

(01:32:25):
going to happen, yeah, and yeah,I can have them, and nobody
else around me will know thatI'm under that kind of stress or
pressure you know of pressure,stress or pressure, you know.
So I wonder if maybe I mean thatcould be a thing too, although

(01:32:46):
I still don't think he has.
I don't, I don't think that wasa, I don't think that's his
thing.

Speaker 2 (01:32:49):
But yeah, because we're going to talk about that
in a second, but until I learnedthis other information, which I
found more compelling, that was, I found that it is very
compelling.
It is very compelling and it isa very plausible scenario, far

(01:33:12):
more plausible than the others,absolutely, and so I redid it in
eight out of ten.
Okay, I agree.
Okay, number eight is that raywas killed off-site, possibly by
a car accident or blunt forcetrauma, and moved to the
conference room of the belvedere, and that the scene was

(01:33:36):
manipulated to make it appearlike a suicide.
Now, that sounds, on its face,like it's not super plausible.
However, I read a book.

Speaker 1 (01:33:51):
She's been telling me about this book for a week.

Speaker 2 (01:33:54):
And the book was Ray Rivera Suicide or Homicide by
Miriam Moya, who I told youabout.
We went over her credentialsearlier, so it's probably not
necessary to go over them again,but she's a forensics expert.
Yes, In many in many differentfields Fields, yeah, and many

(01:34:15):
fields which happen to berelevant to this and she
happened to get a bee in herbonnet about this case and she
contacted journalist StephenJanis and she said look, I want
information about this casebecause I want to calculate the

(01:34:39):
trajectory of race for all of myhow did she hear about it?

Speaker 1 (01:34:43):
just so curiously, because she's from spain, yeah,
um, yeah, but um ray spent sometime.

Speaker 2 (01:34:50):
Oh, that's right spain.
Yeah, yeah, yeah so so yeah,his case might kind of be a
thing there.

Speaker 1 (01:34:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:34:56):
Okay, gotcha.
I forgot about that, and so shecontacted this journalist from
Baltimore and so he's one of hermain contacts and through him
and through, I also assume, likeher contacts, through like

(01:35:17):
forensics stuff and police-ystuff.

Speaker 1 (01:35:22):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:35:23):
Very technical terms, she was able to get her hands
on some really important thingsthat Others did not, makita and
others were not able to get ahold of, which was the police
report and also the medicalexaminer's report.

Speaker 1 (01:35:41):
Yeah, she had some ins.

Speaker 2 (01:35:42):
Yes, it would seem, and she presented a lot of
compelling information, facts,and then also her hypothesis
based on the calculations thatshe has made, her hypothesis
based on the calculations thatshe has made, and so I'm going

(01:36:03):
to try and present those, and Ididn't really take much notes
about this part, so hopefully Iwill present those in order.
So the first thing she reallytalked about is she talked about
that there is a lot of saw himat a bar talking or arguing with

(01:36:24):
another individual and she saidthat the police went and

(01:36:51):
interviewed people at the barbut they were not able to find
anyone else who had seen Ray andit seemed like that lead kind
of fizzled.
It seemed like she has a lot ofcomplaints about the police
report but they didn't reallylike follow up on it and like

(01:37:13):
who was the other individual?
What did they look like?
You know?
like like if this person saw andcould recognize Ray, surely
they could describe.
Yeah, they should have takenthe description from her.
Exactly the other individual,but there was no description, no

(01:37:36):
police sketch, nothing of thatnature, right?

Speaker 1 (01:37:40):
Yeah, which it feels like they'd already made up
their minds Exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:37:43):
They certainly had.
That's one thing that isalready like whoa, what the fuck
?
Right, because if you seesomebody arguing with somebody
on a night where they fuckingdisappeared, like that makes you
think things.
Yeah.
Another thing is with the car.

(01:38:04):
So I have kind of asemi-correction on my other
correction.
You'd ask if the car was in theparking garage and I said it
was near the parking garage, Ibelieve.
Now somebody's probably likeyou're wrong, but I believe it
was on, parked on like theparking lot outside of the

(01:38:28):
parking structure.
Okay, does that make sense?
Because it was ticketed by aparking attendant?
Okay, however, it was visiblefrom the street and the in-laws
were able to spot it from thestreet when they drove by.
Okay.
Other reports have said thatthey didn't find any evidence

(01:38:52):
inside Ray's car.
Well, according to the policereport, they found some hair
inside ray's car, but there's nokind of description about what
kind of hair was it.
What color of hair was it?
Was it head hair?
Was it body hair?
Was it animal hair?
Short, long, yeah, exactly.

(01:39:14):
Did they send it for testing?
No, what happened there?
Disappeared right into theether.
No more, no more commentary, nomore.
Nothing about the hair.
So that seems like somethingthat you would want to check it
out, right, yeah, even if it'slike this is Ray's hair and he

(01:39:34):
brushes hair, or like a coupleof hairs fell out of his head,
like just fucking check it, yeah.
And another thing is that theyfound drops of blood yes, drops
of blood outside a certainindividual's home.
And what individual was that?

(01:39:55):
Our dear friend PorterStansberry.
What individual was that?
Our dear friend PorterStansberry.
They found drops of blood onhis side kitchen porch steps,
and they took samples of thisblood and reportedly sent it off
for analysis.
And what happened?
No more reporting on itDisappeared into the ether.

Speaker 1 (01:40:18):
And they never got tested either.

Speaker 2 (01:40:21):
They supposedly sent it off and then there's no more
news about it.
Gotcha, yep.
So then the next part is thatAllison received a weird call
from like a Chicago hotel oneither the 19th or the 20th I
don't quite remember of May, and, and they're just like we can't

(01:40:48):
trace it.
No follow up, and that's it.
Like what is it?
What is going on?
Yeah, they just didn't reallycheck.
The next thing that's weird isRay was found.
I think the note was found.

(01:41:09):
I want to say either than the21st or the 22nd.
Ray's body was found on the 24th, on the 23rd, when Porter
Stansbury called a policeofficer and said allegedly, or
according to Miriam Mya's book,according to the police report,

(01:41:35):
right uh called a police officerand said that he felt
threatened by ray's note andwhen the police officer tried to
get more information about whythat would be or anything from
him, then he was like, oh, Ican't give more information

(01:41:56):
without speaking to my lawyerbecause I'm involved in this
other, like the SECinvestigation.
And then he asked if he couldleave town to, like, visit his
wife, and the cop was like, yeah, you can leave town because

(01:42:18):
you're not a suspect and, likePorter, seemed irritated.
By the fact that he's not asuspect, or that the fact that
the cop would say the wordsuspect or something like.
I don't know, Gotcha, butobviously like that was on his
mind, right?
Or why would he be asking if hewas allowed to leave town?

Speaker 1 (01:42:39):
Right, and Maybe because of the SEC thing.

Speaker 2 (01:42:44):
Yeah, that's possible , and during that conversation
Porter referred to Ray in thepast tense, saying something
along the lines of he was myfriend Well that's a red flag.
Yeah, so then the other Wait,don't do that, oh sorry.

(01:43:08):
The other Wait don't do that,oh sorry.
So the next part is she doesall these calculations about his
jump.
There's like six or seven pagesof just math, which is awful,
right, and I mean I justobviously just flipped through

(01:43:28):
it because I was like these area lot of numbers but according
to her calculations, shebelieves that it would not have
been possible for Ray to havelanded in that location from any
of the possible points.
However, we do know that theexpert, that Allison hired, who

(01:43:54):
I believe was a physicist, andthe expert, some kind of analyst
I'm not sure if they werephysicists as well that Makita
hired said that it was possible,but she believed that it was
not possible.
Miriam, and she also, I guess Iwill give what I felt was the

(01:44:20):
most compelling information ofthe entire fucking thing.
She used photogrammetry, whichis the science of measuring
things in photographs,essentially Using photographs of

(01:44:40):
the image of the hole and theconference room Right, and she
just measured the fucking holewhich remember we had talked
about before.
Yeah, what is the size of thehole?
Right, and makita's book shewas just going my memory and she
said it's the size of biggerthan a frisbee and smaller than
a hulu, and in the police reportthey didn't measure the fucking

(01:45:05):
size right At all.
Yeah, so Makeda has used thisphotogrammetry to measure.
You mean Miriam, huh Makeda, youmean the other lady, I'm sorry,
not Makeda Miriam Moya has usedthe photogrammetry, basically
using the known size of otherobjects in the photo to measure

(01:45:29):
the size of the hole, right?
So yeah, exactly Science.
Size of other objects in thephoto to measure the size of the
hole, right so science, yeah,exactly science.
And I had thought myself.
I was like hasn't someone donethat?
And here she has done that, andlet me find the picture so that
I can give you the exactmeasurements that she took.

(01:45:50):
So the hole was 3.13 feet wide,or it was 3.13 feet long wide
at its biggest point is 3.13feet at its length at its width.

(01:46:13):
On the other side it's 2.2.22.
And then it there's a narrowersection and that section is 1.67
.
Now here is the which sheprovides a scanned excerpt from

(01:46:38):
the medical examiner's reportthat we can see that they have
reported that Ray's body weighed251 pounds, was four inches in
height and that the widest partof ray's body in his trunk would
be 47 and 49 inches.
So the widest part of ray'sbody exceeds four feet in width.

(01:47:05):
So in basic language it's notfucking possible for Ray's body
to have gone through the hole,because Ray's is wider than the
hole is wide.

Speaker 1 (01:47:18):
He was four feet wide .

Speaker 2 (01:47:20):
Wider than four feet wide.

Speaker 1 (01:47:22):
That seems like a lot .

Speaker 2 (01:47:23):
He was a big dude, because I'm five feet.
Let me show you a picture ofthis dude's shoulders.

Speaker 1 (01:47:34):
Yeah, but still like four feet's, like that.

Speaker 2 (01:47:37):
Yeah, 49 divided by 12 is 4.083333.

Speaker 1 (01:47:44):
I'm just saying, that's really big yeah.
Because, like I mean, I'm 5'1",so if you take the 13 inches
that would put him right at likehis chest would be from my feet
to my tits.

Speaker 2 (01:47:52):
He was a big dude, but that's really big.
Yeah, he.
I mean he he had a swimmer'sbody Like he had really broad
shoulders and he had a narrowwaist.
Yeah, he had that type of body.
When I read that I was like howmuch, what else can you say?

(01:48:15):
That just seems really big.
It does seem really big.
Do you want to find more?

Speaker 1 (01:48:20):
pictures of Ray.
I mean, no, I'm just like itautomatically made me think of,
like Michael Phelps, yeah, so Iwas just wondering how like wide
he was a lot of these pictureshe's like turned to the side.

Speaker 2 (01:48:39):
Oh wow, look at that one.
I mean he looks pretty broadyeah, but that still doesn't
feel like four feet to me,that's I'm just telling you what
, yeah, this is oh, I know, Iunderstand, I'm just and I would
also think here was my thoughtas well that after nine days of

(01:49:02):
decomposition wouldn't his bodyhave desiccated somewhat?
So, if anything, wouldn't hissize have shrunken somewhat?

Speaker 1 (01:49:12):
Maybe Men's chest size.
For a six-sport male istypically between 42 to 44
inches.

Speaker 2 (01:49:20):
All right.
So, it's not that much bigger.

Speaker 1 (01:49:23):
No, it just, it just feels big.

Speaker 2 (01:49:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:49:27):
It does feel big Because that's like most of me,
you know, in terms of my length,yeah, you know so that that
just feels weird to me, but okayokay, he would have been a head
turner, I'm sure, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:49:44):
So yeah, I don't.
I don't think you can reallyget around that If the man is
bigger than the hole, then hedid not go through the hole.

Speaker 1 (01:49:54):
No, he would have.
At the very least he would havebeen scraped yeah most of his
flesh would have been scrapedoff.

Speaker 2 (01:50:03):
Yeah, and that was not the case.
No, no, so that is that one bitof information is the
information that, to me, was themost compelling.
Yeah, man is bigger than whole.
Yeah, therefore, man did not gothrough whole.

Speaker 1 (01:50:25):
Right yeah, science, math yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:50:29):
Yeah, in my review I said said the math is mathing,
um.
So there there is moreinformation.
There's information about hisinjuries, right and uh, she had.
Medical illustrator marieduenheimer I'm probably

(01:50:53):
pronouncing that wrongillustrate all of the injuries
on Ray's body that he had Headand neck injuries, abrasions and
lacerations of the forehead,fractures to the maxilla

(01:51:14):
zygomatic bones, mandibleavulsion of the mandible,
mandibular teeth, multiple skullfractures, multiple base of
skull fractures.
Sub, sub subglyal it's kind ofhard to read because it looks
like it's written with a littletypewriter.
Sub-gly-al-go it's kind of hardto read because it looks like
it's written with a littletypewriter.
Uh-huh, hemorrhage,subarachnoid I know that word

(01:51:39):
Hemorrhage.
Hemorrhage of anterior neckmuscles.
Torsion injuries, contusion ofthe chest, abrasion of the torso
, bilateral clavicle fractures,fract fracture of the sternum,
multiple rib fractures,laceration of the pulmonary
trunk, arterial septum, left andright ventricle of the heart,

(01:52:01):
bilateral lung contusions,laceration of the lungs,
laceration of the liver,laceration of the right groin,
fractures of the right pelvis,hemorrhage of the right testicle
.
Exterior injuries abrasions ofthe upper and lower extremities,
lacerations of the lowerextremities, fracture of the
right tibia and fibula.

(01:52:24):
What she says that she doesn'tsee, that she expects to see, is
she uses more scientificlanguage.
Basically, if he landed on hishead right, caving in of his
skull right and fractures of hisvertebrae right, like his

(01:52:47):
vertebrae would have shatteredright and they didn't.
There's no cavian of his skull,there's no dura matter
everywhere right.
Um, if he went in from his feet, she said she would have
expected she describedaccordioning of the feet, yeah,

(01:53:12):
and basically his, both of hisfeet and legs would have been
completely shattered Right.
But he's got this fracture onhis right leg, he's got these
injuries on his face and craniumand he's got a lot of injuries

(01:53:33):
on his torso Right, which hesaid could be consistent with a
horizontal fall, but of course,not through that hole Right, not
anything through that hole, no.
And then she does an analysiswhere she basically shows that

(01:53:55):
these injuries could beconsistent with like a hit and
run Right.
And she said that it could beconsistent either with a hit and
run where the car was brakingor where it was continuing to
accelerate right.

Speaker 1 (01:54:14):
So it sounds to me like she's saying intentional or
accidental right so, and thensomebody would have had to like
pick them up, put them in thecar and then drop him off in the
conference.

Speaker 2 (01:54:31):
Another thing she said that wasn't reported in the
police report that she expectedto see is 1.5 liters of blood
that would have exited his bodyupon impact Right.
Would have exited his body uponimpact Right.
Makita did report that therewas blood on the wall Mm-hmm

(01:54:55):
when they found his body.
The quantity of that blood?

Speaker 1 (01:55:00):
Wouldn't have been that much though.

Speaker 2 (01:55:02):
Yeah, and it's.
There's no picture, there's nonothing, we don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:55:07):
They didn't even take pictures, or they're just not
showing.
No, there's.

Speaker 2 (01:55:10):
Unknown.
It's not sure there's unknown,it's not, it's it's not
available.
If there was pictures, she saidshe didn't see anybody doing
stuff like that.
She said it seemed like theywere very blase about the entire
scene for what she saw and theydidn't seem like they were
treating it like she wouldexpect to see that kind of scene
treated.

(01:55:31):
Yeah, so probably not pictures.
But if there is pictures,they're not available to anybody
.

Speaker 1 (01:55:40):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:55:41):
And same with the autopsy.
I have to look back on her name, marie Doenheimer, who
recreated the illustrations, ifyou want to see the
illustrations of his injuries,said that typically medical

(01:56:04):
examiner's reports come withphotographs and there was
another, oh, x--rays.
That was the other thing shesaid was missing no photographs,
no x-rays of his body.
And she also said she's like a,a medical illustrator, who she

(01:56:26):
like illustrates yeah, likecrime scenes, like accidents,
like personal injury types ofthings, and she's illustrated
car accidents, she's illustratedfalls.

Speaker 1 (01:56:39):
And she also said that she felt that it was these
types of injuries and patternsof injuries were more consistent
with a car accident or bluntforce trauma than they were with
a fall yeah, looking at it likethis in these pictures, it it's
yeah, I, I don't obviously Iknow nothing about medicine or

(01:57:07):
bodies, but it doesn't feel likethat's what would have happened
had he jumped or, yeah, fallenand here is the other last piece
of evidence that I found reallycompelling while she didn't
have any analysis of the blood,she did have a photograph of the

(01:57:32):
blood.

Speaker 2 (01:57:32):
She did have a photograph of the blood that was
found.
Here's the picture.

Speaker 1 (01:57:39):
We're talking outside the individual's house.

Speaker 2 (01:57:42):
Yes, those are the steps of the individual's house
and that is a picture of theblood, and one of her areas that
she's able to analyze is bloodsplatter analysis.
Yeah, and what she analyzed isthat this pattern is consistent

(01:58:03):
with an individual who wasrunning out of that house.
Mm-hmm, she also here.
Let me show you you uh, yeah, itfeels like, it looks like it
was dropping yeah, a 3d image ofa five foot individual right to

(01:58:24):
see if that individual matchedthe pattern of where the blood
fell.
And she found that the fivefoot tall individual like our
height approximately does notmatch.
You can see here in the photo,like this five foot person, the
blood is outside of the rangeright.
And then she put in a person ofthe size of Ray Rivera and here

(01:58:54):
is what she found.
Tell me what you think aboutthat.
What do you see?

Speaker 1 (01:59:00):
Wait, what am I looking at?
What's the middle picture it'sshowing?
It's showing somebody.

Speaker 2 (01:59:07):
It's showing a 3D image of an individual the size
of Ray Rivera, matching to theblood splatter.

Speaker 1 (01:59:16):
Yeah, yeah, I can see that, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:59:24):
It matches, and also the other reason that I saved
the photo of that I showed youof, of Ray next to this other
individual, is that you can seethat this other individual is
quite smaller than Ray.

Speaker 1 (01:59:40):
Yeah, so it wouldn't have been his blood.

Speaker 2 (01:59:42):
No, no, we can see that that seems to be based on
her analysis, consistent with,if an individual the size and
width of ray was running out ofthat house dripping blood, her

(02:00:03):
conclusion is that she's notmaking any accusations.
Obviously that's not what she'shere to do.
No, what she is saying is thatthis investigation was conducted
so poorly, so many things wereleft, so many things were just
dropped, that it is extremelynegligent.
Yeah, and if you, if you read,if you read the book now, I will

(02:00:26):
warn.
If you read the book now, Iwill warn.
English is not her firstlanguage and she's not a writer.
She writes in a lot oftechnical jargon as well, and so
you get parts where thesentence structure is a little
bit weird and you get partswhere she's like writing in

(02:00:51):
pages and pages of liketechnical jargon.
But if you push, through thatthen you get to the really good
stuff.
Yeah and yeah.
So you can tell that she isjust absolutely affronted by the
shoddy work that they did.

Speaker 1 (02:01:05):
I am too.
Yeah, I mean, I don't care howbusy you are, you should give
every absolutely every incident.

Speaker 2 (02:01:13):
It's, it's due diligence and and what her aim
is is to get this investigationreopened and thoroughly
investigated a second time yeahso although that seems like it
would be hard, considering allthe missing evidence yeah,
absolutely.
I mean like his body could bere-examined.

(02:01:34):
Well, was it cremated?
I don't remember yeah I don'tremember if it was cremated, but
I'm sure that there are thingsthat could be re-examined.
Yeah, but yeah, it is difficult.
It is difficult, yeah, giventhat things have disappeared and
that things.
Yeah, but anyway, so I gavethat.

(02:01:58):
I don't want to rate anythinglike 10 out of 10.
I gave it a 9 out of 10.

Speaker 1 (02:02:04):
Yeah, all right.

Speaker 2 (02:02:05):
Nothing is 10 out of 10.

Speaker 1 (02:02:07):
Well, it certainly has the science and the math to
back it up.
Absolutely is 10 out of 10.

Speaker 2 (02:02:10):
Well, it certainly has the science and the math to
back it up.
Absolutely.
And if and when I see somethingmore compelling that says, hey,
whoa, that's wrong and I canprove it and I have more
compelling evidence, thenabsolutely I would love to take
a look at that.
Yeah, but wow that uh.

Speaker 1 (02:02:29):
Photogrammetry yeah that's what really got me yeah,
yeah, it doesn't feel like anyof the other ones would be
possible, giving the math andthe science exactly so, uh, yeah
, that wraps up, okay, my rayrivera case and we are not
making any accusationsabsolutely we are not.

(02:02:51):
We are not stating any opinion,no um at all no, okay, so I
know you have to get going it'squite late absolutely uh.
So we probably won't do anygossipy stuff, not that anything
.

Speaker 2 (02:03:06):
Uh shit for Some of our listeners are probably
celebrating, but don't worry,our what next episode will
probably be like 75% gossip.

Speaker 1 (02:03:18):
Yeah, because we'll be.
We'll have had some alcohol.
Okay, episode 28.
So what two episodes from now?
So November will be our bookepisode, and that will be long
haul hunting the highway serialkillers by frank figliuzzi.
Um, looks quite short, soshould be manageable.

(02:03:41):
It is new, though we maybe wegotta learn to pick some ones
that have been out for a while.
Uh, someday, anyway, that's aproblem for another day.
A medium amount of new.
A medium amount of new, yes,and we are going to be better
about doing this.

Speaker 2 (02:04:00):
We're trying, okay, but we also have real life stuff
, so we appreciate your patience.

Speaker 1 (02:04:05):
We do appreciate your patience.
Life really threw some bigcurveballs at me this week, last
two weeks, so hopefully I canget my life back together and
back on a schedule you're doinggreat no, I know, I know I'm
doing the best I can, but Igrant you a thousand gold stars.

(02:04:28):
Well, thank you, I just need toget back on a routine that I let
slide over the summer.
Just haven't caught myself backup yet, but we will be adding
some things hopefully coming thesecond season.
Maybe not at first, depends onhow the semester goes, but
eventually we will, and we'llalso be getting these up on

(02:04:49):
YouTube at some point.
Book two episodes from now.
Episode 28 next week littlecelebration party, hopefully.
Uh, a halloween related crime,halloween spooktacular yes, and
I think that's it.
Yes, yep, we will be betterprepared.

(02:05:12):
Thank you so much for yourpatience and your listening and
we love you.
We do and okay, so like,subscribe, download, review,
Follow.
Follow us on our personalInstagrams and our show social

(02:05:33):
medias and we will see you nexttime or talk to you next time.
Bye.

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Down the Rabbit Hole: The Baffling Case of Rey Rivera Part 3

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