Grants Pass Oregon v. Johnson and the Criminalization of Human Existence

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We apologize for being tardy (again).

In this episode, Rachel discusses the possible (likely?) repercussions of the decision of Grants Pass Oregon v. Johnson and our criminalization of homelessness. There's no missing persons case this time. 

Our next book is "Little, Crazy Children: A True Crime Tragedy of Lost Innocence" by James Renner, which we will discuss in episode 24.

Sources: 

Pohl, J. 06/28/2024, Supreme Court Has ‘Greenlighted The Criminalization of Homelessness’, Berkley Experts Say. UC Berkeley News. 

ACLU Alaska, June 28, 2024. U.S. Supreme Court Overturns Grants Pass V. Johnson Ruling. 

Institute of Medicine (US) Committee on Health Care for Homeless People, 1988. Homelessness, Health, and Human Needs. National Institute of Health. 

Soken-Huberty, E. 2024. 10 Root Causes of Homelessness. Human Rights Careers. 

Grace Center, April 2, 2024. The Causes of Homelessness in America. Life Bridge North Shore Community. 

Pagaduan, J. 10/09/2021. Millions of Americans Are Housing Insecure: Rent Relief and Eviction Assistance Continue to be Critical. National Alliance to End Homelessness. 

Kaysen, R. 01/25/2024. More Renters Than Ever Before Are Burdened By The Rent They Pay. The New York Times. 

ACLU Women’s Rights Project. N.D. Domestic Violence and Homelessness. 

National Network for Youth. 2023. LBGTQ+ Youth Homelessness. 

National Alliance to End Homelessness. 12/2023. Health and Homelessness are Inextricably Linked. Health Problems Can Cause Homelessness as well as be Exacerbated by the Experience. 

Vinoski Thomas, E. 06/14/2019. Homelessness Among Individuals With Disabilities: Influential Factors and Scalable Solutions.  

State of Washington Department of Commerce. N.D. Homelessness Myths and Facts. 

Olivet, J. 10/22/2022. Collaborate, Don’t Criminalize: How Communities Can Effectively And Humanely Address Homelessness.  

Petter, J. 02/12/2024. How Finland Conquered Homelessness. 

Socials:

Instagram: Details Are Sketchy - @details.are.sketchy
Facebook: Details Are Sketchy - @details.are.sketchy.2023
Instagram: Kiki - @kikileona84
Instagram: Rachel - @eeniemanimeenienailz
Email: [e-mail] 
 

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Yeah, she'd embarrass both of us for sure.
People would probably love her.
They probably would.
They'd be like more GrandmaRuth.
Yep, I can only imagine shealready enjoys embarrassing me
in every other way.
Okay, so I'm Kiki and I'mRachel, and this is Details Are

(00:20):
Sketchy A true crime podcast,and this is episode 22,.
I believe.
Oh, my goodness.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
Yes, we've only got one month to read our book.
I was thinking it was 21.
Oh God, Wow, that's what I haveto read next then.
Yeah, well, you'll have a month.

Speaker 1 (00:37):
You have a month to read it.

Speaker 2 (00:38):
It's okay you say that now, I do say that now.

Speaker 1 (00:41):
I mean I say that having read absolutely zero
things in six weeks.

Speaker 2 (00:46):
So well, that's not.

Speaker 1 (00:51):
You read the Witch of New York book?
Yeah, but that was back in.
Was that in July?
Yeah, it was in July.
I think we finished it at theend of June, though, did we?
Oh Well, if I finished it injuly, then I read one whole book
in july yeah so go me.

Speaker 2 (01:10):
That's, exciting yeah , when did you read mary?

Speaker 1 (01:13):
that was june june was a good month for me for june
, one for july.

Speaker 2 (01:18):
No, I actually read four in june.
Nice, yeah, one a week veryimpressive.

Speaker 1 (01:24):
Yeah, what a week Very impressive.
Yeah, what a week, a month.
But it's true, it actuallyprobably all was in one week.
I probably had to cram it allin there.

Speaker 2 (01:32):
I meant like one a week, not a week, oh yeah.
Sure, roughly about one a week.
If you read them all in oneweek, yeah, I could see that I
used to.

Speaker 1 (01:40):
I used to be able to read like four or five a week.
I know you can, but I don'tknow.
These last two years I justcannot.
Yeah, sometimes it ebbs andflows.

Speaker 2 (01:50):
That's true.

Speaker 1 (01:51):
I did go almost a decade without reading more than
like 20 books a year, yeah, andI hated it.
But then I made up for itbecause then, like one year I
read.
I only, I think, put like 100on Goodreads, but if I because I
didn't put all my smutty bookson there If I put all my smutty
books on there it would havebeen like 300.
Yeah, so I think I more thanmade up for it in that one year,

(02:15):
but then I wore myself out, Iguess.

Speaker 2 (02:17):
Yeah, no, when I had my son, I went like three years
without reading.
Yeah, about reading yeah, butyou have an excuse.
I'm just sitting there coloringon my phone.
I was like I think my sistergave me a book or whatever.
I think I'm.
I probably told this storybefore, but I was like I was
like reading and I was like yay,and I was like I'd like to read

(02:39):
and jay was like oh, like, yeah, like all these books that I've
been hauling around, that youcomplain about were just for
decoration.
That's funny, Like why do youthink they're all so worn down
Right?

Speaker 1 (02:56):
I guess we usually should leave our talking for the
end, but that's okay.
Since we're talking now and wementioned Twisters twice last
time, should we say we actuallywent and saw it.
We got there in plenty of time,Thought we might be late, but
we had a good hour or soactually.
Had some popcorn, we did.

(03:16):
And secret candy, and secretcandy, yep, yep.
And what did you have?
Banana runt, oh no, you hadjelly beans.
I had jelly bellies?

Speaker 2 (03:25):
Yeah, mostly.
What did you have?
Banana runt, oh no, you hadjelly beans.
I had jelly bellies, mostlypopcorn flavored jelly bellies.
Yeah, I enjoyed having thepopcorn flavored jelly bellies
with the popcorn.
That was a fun experience.

Speaker 1 (03:35):
I bet it was.
Yeah, I had a couple ofchocolates with dried coconut
inside.
I had one of those too.
I think they're calledhaystacks or something are
really good.
They're my favorite candy.
Yeah, and we saw it.
You did not like all of thecountry music.
I did not.

Speaker 2 (03:50):
I hate country music.
I don't care how popular itgets.
I beyonce does it or oranything I I'm not.
Not in the way that, likebeyonce can't do country music,
she's a black woman.
Black woman can't do countrymusic.
But like in the way that Idon't like country music and
beyonce can't do country music,she's a black woman.
Black woman can't do countrymusic.
But like in the way that Idon't like country music and
Beyonce can't entice me towardsit.

Speaker 1 (04:11):
It's just not your thing, it's just not your thing.
We all have our influences.
I don't mind country music.
I grew up with it, so some ofit was I enjoyed, but it was
scary.
The original Twister was notthat scary.
I I mean it did unlock a fear.
I didn't know I had theoriginal twister, but twisters
just scared me the entire time,like I mean I was, I was there,

(04:35):
I had the popcorn in front of myface a few times.
You were covering your face yeah, oh god, that first five
minutes, oh my god it was brutalthat I yeah my greatest fears,
like my every time.
You know how there's all thesememes or whatever that go around

(04:56):
that talk about how you cantell a millennial is driving
behind a truck, a logging truck,because they stay way way far
away, because oh yeah because offinal destination.
We have good common sense, yes,but also because of final
destination, oh yeah, but.
I final destination awoke us tothe real dangers of logging

(05:17):
trucks, but I um, I also do thatwhen I see a ladder because of
twister yeah, the, the originalTwister.
Yeah Because the so-calledvillain got it.
He was impaled by it.
Yes, impalement is one of mygreatest fears, along with
losing my brain.

Speaker 2 (05:33):
What is that other?
Is it the virgin suicides?

Speaker 1 (05:37):
Oh God don't.
I can't Like I can't.
Oh, oh, mm-hmm.
I think about it every time Igo near a fence with one of
those spiky things yeah.
Oh my God, I can't, I can't,but yeah, no, it was scary, it
was really scary.
It was good.
I wasn't expecting much from it, but I thought it was actually

(05:57):
quite good.

Speaker 2 (05:58):
Yeah, yeah.
No, it was very entertaining.
I thought it was a little morepatriotic than was strictly
necessary.
And that's that's not my stylebut, as, as Katie pointed out,
it is Oklahoma, so I supposeit's apt.
Yes, but yeah, I was likethere's quite a number of
American flags, like like wekind of get it, but but yeah, it

(06:21):
was entertaining.
Yeah, it was definitely scaryat times and yeah, like we kind
of get it Right, but yeah, itwas entertaining.
Yeah, it was definitely scaryat times and yeah, like very,
yeah, action-packed, likeaggressive tornadoes.
The only thing I missed was Iwanted to see a flying cow.
Yeah, there was a chicken.
There was a chicken.
There was a chicken, butchicken doesn't quite hit the

(06:44):
same as a cow?

Speaker 1 (06:45):
No, it doesn't, it really doesn't.
Yeah, that poor cow.
Okay, anyway, I'm sorry, so wewanted to mention that since we
mentioned it twice.

Speaker 2 (06:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (06:55):
Was Glenn Powell's dog actually in the movie,
Because I know he adopted itfrom the movie but I don't
remember actually seeing it inthe movie.

Speaker 2 (07:02):
I remember there was a scene where he was looking for
a dog.
But I don't remember, because Iwas like, are they going to
show his dog, right?
But I don't remember seeing thedog.

Speaker 1 (07:14):
Okay, so I didn't miss it then.

Speaker 2 (07:15):
Yeah, okay, good, I was looking forward to seeing
Brisket, not unless we bothmissed it.
No, somehow.

Speaker 1 (07:22):
I want to say have you seen speaking of doggies?
Have you seen the press for thenew Deadpool Wolverine movie,
the only?

Speaker 2 (07:32):
press quote unquote press that I saw, for it was
this short video of these veryallegedly Christian women who
had gone to see it, which Idon't know what they were
expecting in the first place.
And then they, I guess, leftthe theater early and they

(07:52):
posted a video about it, sayingdon't go and see it, it's
written by the devil orsomething like that.
That's funny.
And they were upset aboutimagery in the movie about
Wolverine being nailed to an Xwhich is reminiscent of like an
iconic like cover, one of thecomic book covers.

Speaker 1 (08:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (08:13):
Where that happens.

Speaker 1 (08:16):
Yeah, but no, I brought it up because there's a
doggy there's.
I forget the dog's name, butit's um, dresses up like
deadpool, and I think it'sactually in the movie and it was
britain's ugliest dog oh my godyeah, isn't that ugly?
Chinese crested?
I think so.
Yeah, and stressed up like it'sdog pool.

(08:37):
Dog pool is the name.
I don't think it's really dogpool, her name's like something
else, but anyway, there she'sbeen part of a lot of press and
it's really cute.
Ugly, cute, ugly, cute.
You know the tongue stickingout, anyway.
Okay, now that we're donetalking movies, we do not have a
missing person this weekbecause I succumbed to the

(08:59):
summer lazies and didn't do that, but also because school's
starting up and I have classesI've never taught before.
So I'm gearing up to do that.

Speaker 2 (09:08):
So it's not the summer lazies, it's more like
the summer working hard.

Speaker 1 (09:11):
Well, I have had two weeks to do it, but I didn't
think about it until today.
Yeah, or try to do anythinguntil today, I mean I can't
blame you at all for that.
I just I can't function If it'sover 65, I can't function.

Speaker 2 (09:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (09:28):
It just doesn't work for me.
Yeah, that's why I want to movenear a beach, I think at least.
I mean, I know it would stillbe warm, like I know it's still
going to be hot in LA, but it'snot New Mexico.
Hot, yeah, plus there's anocean.

Speaker 2 (09:41):
Yeah, you know, yeah, you know a beach so I can't
wait for that okay anyway it allgets too much.
We can walk into the ocean andget torn away by a riptide or
something like that.
There you go, although drowningis a horrible way to die well,
maybe you would get crushed onsome coral or something, yeah,
first, or maybe we will geteaten by a shark.

(10:05):
Oh God, I don't know if I wantthat either.
I mean, when the great whitecomes up from underneath you,
you know like you're a seal.
Then it's like getting hit by atruck.

Speaker 1 (10:17):
I hear oh good, so Fun there you go, there you go,
oh God, okay, no more sharknightmares please.
I still have my cruise to go on.

Speaker 2 (10:28):
Do I do any shark nightmares?
Sorry?

Speaker 1 (10:33):
You can do it after I come back from my cruise.

Speaker 2 (10:36):
I just you know I like to poke the bear,
proverbial bear.

Speaker 1 (10:40):
I know you do Okay there.
I know you do Okay, so youdon't have a crime in the sense
that most people think of crime.

Speaker 2 (10:53):
You are talking about the criminalization of
homelessness, it's true.
Yes, yeah, I got a little beein my bonnet about that.
So that's what we're going totalk about.
And I mean it is a crime, butit's also a crime that it's a
crime, yes, rage inducing, yeah,so we're going to talk about

(11:15):
that.
The end might get a littlefuzzy because I kind of ran out
of time to do my notes, but Ihave articles, I have references
, so we'll start going off ofthose once I get down there.
If you're still listening.

Speaker 1 (11:36):
She's going to give me a lot of editing to do this
week.

Speaker 2 (11:38):
Yeah, sorry.
So today I wanted to go off ina different direction, similar
to what I did with my Prideepisode, although in my Pride
episode we had the nice littlestory about Gerda Gottlieb and
Lily Elby, and that was a nicelittle story, and this one I
don't really have a specificstory about individuals.

(12:01):
Basically you just get to hearme go off on a little soapbox.
And so I wanted to covermatters of the criminalization
of human existence through theinherent injustice of our legal
system.
So I wanted to focus on thatthrough our recent June 28, 2024

(12:25):
, grants Pass Oregon v Johnson,a United States Supreme Court
decision in which a bleak 6-3ruling the court ruled that
cities can criminalize theunhoused for sleeping in public
even when they have nowhere elseto go.
Essentially, the court ruledthat it is constitutional to

(12:48):
punish the unhoused for being inthat very position.
Last year, a Ninth CircuitCourt of Appeals ruled that
criminally punishing theunhoused was a violation of the
Eighth Amendment, with theopinion of the court stating,
quote with the opinion of thecourt stating, quote if there
are no other public areas orappropriate shelters where
individuals can sleep.

(13:08):
End quote Grants Pass Oregonappealed that decision to the
United States Supreme Court andon June 24, 2024, scotus
reversed the ruling of the lowercourt, erasing any
constitutional protection forthe unhoused.
In the 6-3 decision, thecourt's conservative judges

(13:29):
sided with the city of GrantsPass, oregon ruling that the
city's enforcement of campingpans did not constitute cruel
and unusual punishment and didnot violate the Eighth Amendment
.
In April, the ACLU, along with18 ACLU affiliates, filed an
amicus brief, which means friendof the court brief, which is

(13:51):
basically when any kind ofinterest group like the ACLU or
the Heritage Foundation or theNAACP or anything like that will
file briefs basically trying toinfluence the court and their
decision with very lengthypieces of paper, stacks of paper
that unfortunate interns haveto go through On behalf of

(14:16):
upholding the decision of theNinth Circuit Court of Appeals.
Basically, this is from theAlaska ACLU site, so that's why
they're talking about theiramicus brief.
Ruth Bolstein, the legaldirector of the ACLU of Alaska
branch, reported upon hearing ofthe SCOTUS decision.
Quote Today's ruling is a bleakand cruel decision that will

(14:39):
allow cities to punish peoplewho are just trying to survive
while living unhoused.
The point about the amicusbrief is just saying like hey,
we try to stop this.
Uc Berkeley professors of socialwelfare, public law and policy
also disagree with the court'sruling, arguing that the
decision will increase thestressors and dangers facing the

(15:02):
unhoused population by causingthem to seek increasingly
dangerous conditions for shelterand respite.
According to Jeffrey Selbin,berkeley Law Professor and
Faculty Director for the PolicyAdvocacy Clinic, the court has
green-lighted thecriminalization of homelessness,
which research shows iscounterproductive and inhumane.

(15:23):
As the dissent and even themajority noted, state and local
lawmakers are not required to godown that path.
Oh, but they like to.
This case will be a Rorschachtest for elected officials.
Will they redouble theirefforts to provide shelter and
housing or fall back on lawsthat punish people for being

(15:45):
homeless?
In this article, a number ofexperts weighed in on the
potential impact of thisdecision.
So I'm going to go over some ofthese statements and because a
lot of these experts arebringing up various points about
basically why criminalizing theunhoused is shitty.
Basically why criminalizing theunhoused is shitty.

(16:08):
According to Jamie Chang, anassociate professor of social
welfare who specializes in thesociological and health effects
of homeless encampment suitesdecades of medical and social
science research is clear thatcriminalizing homelessness will
increase the pain and sufferingof homeless people and do
nothing to reduce homelessnessWith no legal place to go.

(16:28):
My prediction is that thisdecision will drive unsheltered
homeless people into the worstconditions to avoid punishment.
Homelessness will notmiraculously disappear, but
people will be forced to findplaces to survive that are less
visible, more isolated and morehazardous.
I fear that this will bedevastating to the homeless

(16:50):
individual and detrimental forsociety.
Scotus is dead wrong that thisis not cruel and unusual.
Criminalizing people forsleeping in public when there is
no shelter available is kickingsomeone when they are at their
most vulnerable.
Moreover, there are 125,000unsheltered homeless people in
California, circumstances thatare cruel but sadly not unusual

(17:15):
at all.
This massive housing andshelter shortage has made
unsheltered homelessnesscommonplace and predictable.
There is a harmful falsenarrative that people are
voluntarily homeless by refusinghelp, putting the blame on the
individual when California hasclearly not built enough housing
and shelter.
We need to band together toaddress this massive affordable

(17:42):
housing shortage, not perpetuategreater punishment to
impoverished individuals andfamilies.
Okay, here's another statementby Dr Coco R Sewald so sorry if
I'm mispronouncing that name.
I most likely am Professor inthe field of public health and
co-director of communityengagement of the resource hub

(18:04):
Innovations for Youth, as apediatrician who has conducted
community-based researchregarding youth homelessness for
28 years.
I am alarmed at the Grants Passdecision for several reasons.
Evicting people fromencampments is dangerous to
their health.
Research conducted at UCBerkeley found it was correlated

(18:27):
with a higher likelihood ofoverdose for those people
experiencing homelessness whouse injection drugs For youth.
Our research has found it is atrigger for youth to start using
injection drugs.
Most youth experiencinghomelessness indeed, most people
experiencing homelessness donot live in encampments.
However, those who do are themost vulnerable among people

(18:52):
experiencing homelessness.
Criminalizing their extremepoverty is clearly cruel and
unusual punishment For youthliving in encampments, who are
among the highest risk peopleexperiencing homelessness and
who are high risk even relativeto adults experiencing
homelessness, as per BernioffHomelessness and Housing

(19:21):
Initiative survey of peopleexperiencing homelessness.
This is a tremendous blow.
It is also a loss for us as asociety, as the decision is a
further obstacle to theinclusion of youth in our
community.
As a physician and facultymember who has had the honor to
see how youth blossom when theyare finally held instead of
rejected, my heart weeps.

(19:41):
Ryan Finnegan, associateResearch Director for
Homelessness at the TurnerCenter for Housing Innovation,
had this to say Grant's Pass isspecifically about shelter, but
I would argue that theunderlying issue is the lack of
affordable housing.
Shelter is an important part ofthe continuum of services we

(20:02):
should be providing peopleexperiencing homelessness, and
there aren't enough beds foreveryone who is unhoused.
In California, there are threepeople experiencing homelessness
for each shelter bed.
But we know that just providingmore shelter beds isn't
sufficient If there aren'tpathways or options for

(20:23):
permanent housing.
If there aren't pathways oroptions for permanent housing,
people are not going to exithomelessness.
I'm worried that, as a resultof this ruling, emphasis is
going to be placed either oncriminalizing people who have no
other place to sleep, or thatcities and states will move away
from a focus on expandingpermanent housing options.
The long-term consequences ofthat will be more people

(20:47):
experiencing the trauma of beingunhoused, greater racial
inequality and higher publiccosts from failing to address
the root causes of homelessness.
Local policymakers don't haveto take that path, However.
They can still choose to investin solutions that support the
dignity and long-term well-beingof people experiencing
homelessness.

(21:07):
Laura Riley, Director ofClinical Program at Berkeley Law
, had this to say homelessadvocacy approaches should
remain the same after thegrant's past decision.
Most importantly, listen to theexperiences of unhoused people
and ensure they lead advocacystrategies, as the people who
are directly impacted by theincreased criminalization of

(21:30):
homelessness Keep housing first,the evidence based
prioritization of immediate,unconditional and permanent
housing as a North Star, and howtrauma-informed care and harm
reduction practices informadvocacy.
The way these approaches aredeployed must shift with this

(21:50):
new landscape of homelessnessthat can be more criminalized
due to the decision.
The decision allows cities topass laws that punish unhoused
people for sleeping in publicspaces when there is no other
shelter available, with finesbeing barred from parks and even
being put in prison.
It is no consolation that somecities claim to enact these laws

(22:15):
for public health and safetyreasons or that some cities take
a light touch approach toenforcement.
The result is the same Unhousedpeople will be fearful of
sleeping in parks when they haveno alternative and will be
further displaced, necessarilycaught in cycles of
criminalization that will hurttheir prospects for future

(22:37):
housing and employment.
We have to continue to exposethe fallacy that criminalization
laws work to solve homelessnessand share impactful stories
that show this.
We must track and fightproposed punitive legislation
that the SCOTUS just gave agreen light to with this
decision.
We must urge and empowerlegislators with data to work on

(23:01):
policy that in fact helphomelessness.
We must do it all with a dualgoal of prevention of
homelessness and the provisionof housing for all.
So that's the end of thosestatements.
I just want to include all ofthose from a number of
professors who are highlyinformed and study homelessness

(23:24):
and work very closely with thesepopulations.
And California has a massivenumber amount of homelessness,
not that of course it'severywhere here in the United
States, but Particularly thereis a lot in California and in
other densely populated states.

(23:44):
Okay, so if you didn't alreadyguess, I want to emphasize that
this decision is a bad one.
The reason I really wanted totalk about this because there
has been an increase in theunhoused population in our own
community due to the pandemic,economic hardships,
gentrification of the community,a number of reasons, rising

(24:08):
costs of living.
I mean we're going to get intothat more generally because I'm
going to talk a lot about whatcauses homelessness, I'm saying
specifically in our owncommunity.
Those are some causes that I'veseen impact that and it's
really disappointing to see theamount of mockery and

(24:29):
dehumanization of the unhousedin our community.
I've seen a lot of recent postsin a certain group mocking the
unhoused for sleeping at thepark, for being victims of
assault from a house person whoviolently confronted the

(24:49):
unhoused person over thenonviolent crime of stealing a
shopping cart and had attackedthat person, threw their things
around and then took picturesand posted them on social media
with responses that encouragedassault encouraging assaulting

(25:10):
homeless people with pepperspray when the police failed to
arrest an unhoused person forusing quote, vulgar language and
other vitriol toward theunhoused.
So I want to discuss beingunhoused or being homeless.
I realize that unhoused is likea more modern term and maybe a

(25:32):
more supportive terminology torecognize that a home isn't the
same thing as a house and thatyou can be unhoused and still
have a home.
However, the term homelessnessis so ubiquitous and is in a lot
of these sources, and so I willbe using those terms
interchangeably, and I do wantto emphasize that I understand

(25:55):
that home has connotations ofhuman value and so that is
something that cannot be takenfrom the unhoused.
So we understand that theunhoused do lack a house, but
may not lack a home.
So I aim to cover what causesthe loss of housing, probably

(26:17):
less more briefly, touch onissues like stigmas, like do the
unhoused like discipline, morecharacter or work ethic?
Are the unhoused worthy of ourderision or our compassion.
I mean, I hope, if you'relistening to this podcast, like
probably, like you alreadyrealize, this is a pretty
fucking left-leaning.

(26:38):
I'm pretty fucking left-leaning.
I mean katie fuckingleft-leaning.
I mean Katie's left-leaning too.
But I'm like way over there andI'm going to seek these answers
on this week's episode.
According to a 2015 annualsurvey by the US Conference of
Mayors, major cities across thecountry reported that the top

(27:01):
causes of homelessness were lackof affordable housing,
unemployment, poverty, low wages, mental illness and lack of
access to services related tothose issues, and substance
abuse and lack of access toservices related to those issues
.
So, in a word, issues relatedto capitalism was just related

(27:23):
to those issues.
So, in a word, issues relatedto capitalism.
To elaborate on that, there area number of social and economic
factors which play into causingpeople to be unhoused.
According to the National LawCenter on Homelessness and
Poverty, it can be difficult togather exact data on the
unhoused because of the USDepartment of Housing and Urban
Development or HUD's narrowallowance to define that

(27:45):
category.
The narrow definition used byHUD does restrict the
categorization of the unhousedto a more narrow definition of
those specifically living inshelters and public places not
meant for human habitation,while the US Department of
Education uses a somewhatbroader definition that also
includes families that areovercrowded or doubled up past

(28:07):
the legal capacity that housinglaws stipulate out of economic
necessity.
The methodology of gatheringdata in unhoused communities can
also be difficult andpotentially problematic, with
many potential ethicalconsiderations and concerns.
Basically, what that distillsdown to is that numbers are
probably underreported, asmethods to collect data in the

(28:31):
unsheltered and unhousedpopulations are flawed, and
particularly believed tounderreport the number of
unhoused children.
However, despite these issues,there is still some evidence of
the primary stressorscontributing to, or factors
contributing to, unhousedpopulations, and one of the

(28:53):
primary causes of becomingunhoused is, like we had
mentioned already, insufficientincome and lack of affordable
housing are the leading causesof becoming unhoused.
So, according to a 2022 reportby Harvard's Joint Center for
Housing Studies, 22.4 millionAmerican renters are financially

(29:15):
burdened by rental payments,with half of all renters
spending more than 30% of theirincome on rent and a record 12.1
million American rentersspending more than half of their
income on housing.
The rising costs of housingimpact people from most economic

(29:35):
backgrounds and situations,with middle-income renters
seeing the largest increases incost burdens since 2019 and, to
bring it back a record number ofhomeless Americans recorded on
a given night in January 2023.
According to the New York Times, even as the rental market

(29:57):
allegedly cools, with the askingrents falling by just 1% in
2023, but they are still up astaggering 19% since the
pandemic.
Sia Weaver, a campaigncoordinator at Housing Justice
for All in New York, reports,quote it's definitely worse than
it's ever been.
Middle class people, lowermiddle class people, working

(30:20):
class people they cannot affordtheir rent.
The New York Times reports thatrenters struggling with their
sky-high rents and food billstook measures such as skipping
meals, driving less to save gasand eliminating social
activities.
Some renters they interviewedreported having to put expenses

(30:41):
on their credit cards or borrowmoney from friends or family or
tap into their retirementsavings just to survive.
While some of the renters theNew York Times interviewed were
unemployed and or on publicassistance, most of the subjects
had full-time employment andheld college or postgraduate
degrees.

(31:02):
Quote will this ever end?
Will it ever get better?
Can I get out of this?
Lamented 29-year-old AlexLareza to the New York Times,
who reported he spends 49% ofhis $55,000 annual income
towards rent and utilities for aduplex in North Kingston, rhode

(31:22):
Island.
It's gotten so bad.
Should I eat or should I worryabout my heat turning off?
Larosa reported that he isbehind on his utilities and he
has abandoned all of his hobbiesas expenses that he does not
have the luxury of affording.
Sometimes LaRosa reportsskipping meals to ensure his

(31:42):
daughter has something to eat.
Larosa is a defense contractorwith a college degree.
Quote I never thought thatsomeone who took all these steps
would be struggling so much,larosa confessed to the New York
Times Next month.
From the writing of the article, larosa's rent is increasing by

(32:03):
an additional $150.
For extremely low-incomerenters, the situation is even
more difficult.
75% of low-income renters haveless than half their income left
after rent and utilities fornecessities include, but are not
limited to, food,transportation, medicine and

(32:24):
child care.
The foreclosure crisis of 2018also played a big role in the
crisis of unhousing, with stateand local homeless groups
reporting a 61% increase inhomelessness in 2008.
A 61% increase in homelessnessin 2008.

(32:44):
The National Institute ofHealth, in their report on
homelessness, health and humanneeds, report that there appears
to be a direct relationshipbetween the reduced availability
of low-cost housing and theincreased number of homeless
people.
Since 1980, the aggregatesupply of low-income housing has
declined by approximately 2.5million units.

(33:06):
Loss of low-income dwellingscan be attributed to primarily,
extremely low rate ofreplacement of housing resources
lost to the normal process ofdecay and renewal.
Each year, it is estimated thatapproximately half a million
housing units are lostpermanently through conversion,

(33:27):
abandonment, fire or demolition,and the production of new
housing has not kept pace.
For women and children, domesticviolence is a significant
factor leading to the loss ofstable housing, although I do
want to note that about 60something percent of the total

(33:48):
homeless population is men.
But of the 30 something Iforget the exact what the exact
something is the majority ofthose women have been victims of
domestic violence.
So that's what we're talkingabout right now.
To escape domestic violence,people will often flee their

(34:08):
homes without a plan.
According to human rightscareers, women and children who
flee domestic violence without aplan or support system may end
up living in their cars, inshelters or on the street.
Even those who stay in abusiverelationships are at increased
risk for future unhoused status,as the physical and mental toll

(34:31):
of domestic abuse puts them athigher risk for mental health
trauma and substance abuse,which makes them vulnerable to
being unhoused.
A lack of housing options canalso cause women in domestic
abuse situations to return totheir abusers just for the
security of housing.
According to the ACLU Women'sRights Project, a 2003 report in

(34:55):
Fargo, north Dakota, found that44% of unhoused women reported
having stayed with their abuserin the past two years for lack
of housing options.
Women who are victims ofdomestic abuse are often
subjected to an element offinancial abuse as well, with
their abusers restricting theiraccess to finances and thereby

(35:17):
cutting off access to safelyescape.
Some landlords have alsoadopted a
zero-tolerance-for-crime policywhich allows the landlords to
evict tenants when crime occursin a home they are renting,
regardless of whether the tenantis the perpetrator or the
victim of the crime.

(35:37):
One Michigan study of womencurrently or formerly on welfare
found that women whoexperienced recent domestic
violence were more likely toface eviction than other women.
A similar 2005 investigation bya fair housing group in New
York City found that 28 percentof housing providers either

(35:59):
flatly refused to rent to adomestic violence victim or fail
to follow up as promised whencontacted by an investigator
posing as a housing coordinatorfor a domestic violence survivor
program.
Landlords only find out aboutdomestic violence when victims
seek justice through police orthrough the courts, so when

(36:22):
victims know that they may faceeviction if their landlord finds
out.
It makes them less likely toseek assistance and to quietly
remain in the abusiveenvironment.
While women of all income levelsexperience domestic violence,
poor women experience domesticviolence at higher rates than

(36:43):
women in households with higherincome levels.
Women with household incomesless than $7,500 are more than
seven times as likely as womenwith incomes over $75,000 to
experience domestic violence.
Women living in rental housingare three times more likely to

(37:09):
experience intimate partnerviolence as women who own their
homes.
And finally, women living inpoor neighborhoods are more
likely to be victims of domesticviolence than women in more
affluent neighborhoods.
In fact, women and financiallydistressed couples who live in
poor neighborhoods are twice aslikely to be the victims of

(37:30):
domestic violence than women inequally financially distressed
relationships but that live inmore affluent neighborhoods.
In more affluent neighborhoods,in 2005, 50% of US cities

(37:51):
reported domestic violence as aprimary cause of homelessness.
In San Diego, almost 50% ofhomeless women are domestic
violence victims and in fact,this number is almost probably
much higher due tounderreporting and the stigma of
being an abuse victim or fearof reprisals from their abuser.
A 2003 survey of homelessmothers found that one quarter

(38:16):
of them had been physicallyabused in the last year and
almost all had experienceddomestic abuse over their
lifetime.
47% of homeless school-agedchildren and 29% of homeless
children under the age of fivehave witnessed domestic violence
in their families.

(38:37):
According to a 1999 report, a1997 survey of homeless parents
in 10 cities across the countryfound that 22% had left their
families due to domesticviolence, and among those who
had lived with a spouse orpartner, that number jumped to

(38:57):
57%.
And finally, according to a1990 study, half of all homeless
women and children are fleeingabuse.
And I saw another statisticthat said 15% around 15% of
total unhoused people arevictims of domestic violence,
which is close to half thenumber of women, so more like

(39:23):
40%.
So that number is prettysimilar to what that 1999 study
showed, and that was a much morerecent study.
Other overrepresenteddemographics in the unhoused
population include people ofcolor, lgbtqia plus people,
particularly youth and veterans.

(39:43):
Veterans represent about 11 or11.5% of the total unhoused
population, according to onestatistic I saw.
So I want to touch specificallyon the LGBTQIA plus youth
aspect.
According to the NationalNetwork for Youth, individuals

(40:06):
who Identify as Lesbian, gay,bisexual, transgender, queer or
Questioning have a staggering120% higher risk of experiencing
homelessness experiencinghomelessness Out of the 4.2

(40:28):
million unhoused youth inAmerica, 40% of them identify as
LGBTQIA+, compared to 9.6% ofLGBTQIA+ uh youth.
Across the total generalpopulation, lgbtqia plus youth
are disproportionatelyexperienced housing insecurity
as compared to their straightand cisgender peers, and are
also at much higher risk toexperience assault, trauma,

(40:51):
depression and suicide whencompared to their non-queer
unhoused populations.
These statistics are amplifiedfor LGBTQIA plus Black and
Indigenous people of colorpopulations, who also experience
racial inequalities anddiscrimination.
On top of the queerdiscrimination, bipoc youth have

(41:16):
a 83% higher chance ofexperiencing homelessness when
compared to their whitecounterparts, with BIPOC
LGBTQIA+ having an even higherrisk.
Heartbreakingly, familyconflict, meaning a lack of
acceptance by family members, isthe primary cause of

(41:39):
homelessness for LGBTQIA plusyouth.
And I was kind of talking aboutthis with Jay because it's like,
why isn't there a speaking ofcriminalization?
Why isn't there a system tocriminalize families that
abandon, abandon their LGBTQIAplus minors?

(42:02):
Like, as a parent, it's yourduty, it's your legal obligation
to care for your children.
Like, you can't just abandonthat legal obligation unless you
what is the word?
Unless you give up yourguardianship to the state, right

(42:24):
?
So, like, why isn't there?
I mean, I know why, but thereought to be like harsher
punishments for parents whoabandon or disown their LGBTQIA
plus or any of their minorchildren for any reason.
Like you can't just disown yourminor child.

Speaker 1 (42:47):
I don't know At the same time, you know, if I were
15, 16 and I were gay and myfamily disowned me.
I don't think I'd want to behome with them.

Speaker 2 (42:55):
Yeah, I think I'd rather risk the street.
I mean, yeah, I mean that's ahard choice because they're
probably not safe.
But I'm just saying the parentsshould be punished in some way,
like I don't want that, I don'twant the kid with the parents,
but I think the parents shouldbe punished in some kind of way
for saying it's okay for me tono longer take care of my child

(43:16):
because I just don't like thefact that they're gay.

Speaker 1 (43:19):
That's true.
I imagine that is a fight thatwould be very difficult.

Speaker 2 (43:27):
I think that we are going to see more of that.
But you're right.
I think that's difficult when Ithink there are so many people
that will not agree with thatsentiment and think that it's
perfectly acceptable to shit allover their kid because they're
queer, which I'm like.
Show me the fucking bible verse.
Show me the bible verse whereit says kick your fucking kid

(43:48):
out because they're gay, like,abandon your kid and don't take
care of them anymore, likethere's no fucking bible verse
like that I'm sure there'ssomething in the whole testament
.

Speaker 1 (43:58):
I'm sure I mean come on, what's that story where,
like the angels were like here,rape this virgin instead of
having sex with these?

Speaker 2 (44:07):
I mean they like rip the babies out of the wombs of,
like the canaanites and stufflike that.
But that's like the, that'slike the children of their
enemies, that's not like yourown kids like well, no, that
that that bible story that I wastalking about.

Speaker 1 (44:23):
The father of the daughter was like have my virgin
daughter, don't rape, or noteven rape.

Speaker 2 (44:28):
Don't have sex with these men yeah, if it's, if it's
, if it's a girl, then yeah, andthat story of the go ahead and
rape, or what is?
What is the other one?

Speaker 1 (44:39):
with.
There's the story of the guywho's willingly gonna leave his
brother wants to like rape hissister I don't know that one,
but I I was thinking of the, ofthe one of the foundational
stories about belief, when thefather is told by god to go and
cleave his child into and he waswilling to do that yeah, I mean

(45:02):
yeah, thou shalt not suffer awitch to live.
I'm sure there's a bible verse.
I'm sure there's a commandment.
I mean my god, there's like twowhole bible.

Speaker 2 (45:11):
I mean chapters that are on my father used to read
the bible to us and I've heardit the whole thing back to back
a number of times and I'm tryingto think of a verse in which it
would advocate for abandoning.
I'm sure that there'sdefinitely instances, like you

(45:34):
said, in which parents have beenparticularly callous.
Yeah, mostly in the OldTestament, but I don't know if
there's any that specificallysay or advocate abandon your kid
.
The main thing I can think ofin the New Testament is the
prodigal son.
Right, and the prodigal sonthough he's not kicked out by

(45:56):
his parent, he chooses to leaveon his own with his inheritance
he chooses to leave on his ownwith his like inheritance.

Speaker 1 (46:05):
Yeah no, it's very unchristian to kick out your
child because they are differentor not straight.
I mean the, the hatred that isum embraced by american
christianity.

Speaker 2 (46:18):
It's is just mind-blowing it is, and I was
going to also make the pointthat just a lot of this entire
mentality right about theunhoused and about the inherent
immorality of the unhoused comesdown from Puritanism and

(46:39):
Calvinism.
And this down from puritanismand calvinism and this, you know
, idea that some people rightthe poor right, are like the
non-elect and they're.
They're dirty, they're sinners.
That's why they're poor, that'swhy they're in this situation,
because they're, they're notchosen by god.
Right and they deserve for somefucking reason they deserve

(47:01):
what they've got.
And you know, this is a kind ofsentiment that has been around,
you know, basically since thefounding of our nation and it's
very deeply embedded in ourculture in a way that I think is
not even conscious, you know,but it's very much an

(47:26):
undercurrent of our society.

Speaker 1 (47:29):
And, on top of that, our foundation is based on what
is good for ourselves, not theother.
It is based on individualism,not community.
It has never been based oncommunity, ever Not as far as I
can tell.
I mean, granted, foundationalUS history is not my forte, but

(47:54):
as far as I can tell it doesn'tappear to be very community
oriented.

Speaker 2 (47:59):
You know, and I think individualism is good.
To an extent it is good to anextent, but we have way
surpassed that extent.
It has gone beyond anything.

Speaker 1 (48:10):
Yes, yes, but I also would like to point out I mean
because I'm sure there are a lotof people who, well, I don't
think we have a lot of peoplelistening to this podcast, but
those who do listen, I'm suresome of them are probably
believers and I would like tosay we are both, I think, very
aware that there are goodChrist-like Christians out there

(48:33):
who accept the LGBT pluscommunity, who do good things
without expectation ofconversion or whatever.
They're out there.
It's just our personalexperience.

Speaker 2 (48:47):
I have met when I was a regular attender of the
Quaker meeting.
I have met a number of peoplein the religious community who
various, not just Christianity,but there's.
There's also, you know, thejewish community, the buddhist
community we have a buddhistcommunity, a very tiny one, and

(49:10):
uh, who do a lot of good.
The unitarian universalists inthis community do a lot of good.
Um.
The peace lutheran church, uh,does a lot of good in this
community.
Um, so yeah, there are quite anumber of good religious
organizations who, but alsoindividuals, even if they belong

(49:30):
to a church or a particularbranch.

Speaker 1 (49:33):
That is not, shall we say known for their Christ-like
beliefs.

Speaker 2 (49:38):
No, and I know a number of religious individuals
as well, who are awesome people.

Speaker 1 (49:44):
Yeah, so Sorry, we shit on you guys all the time,
but it's just, you know, it'sunfortunate that.
You are overlooked by thepeople, who are filled with hate
.

Speaker 2 (49:56):
That there is something about religion that
can draw out not in everyone,but in many people can draw out
extremism and when, especiallyEspecially if they've converted
yeah, they tend to be the mostzealous, and especially in this
kind of political climate wherewe are seeing an exchange of

(50:22):
political and religious, likethis political religious
interchange.

Speaker 1 (50:26):
Yeah, like a, you know the never mind that we're
supposed to have separation ofchurch and state, but whatever
theologizing of our, of ourpolitics.
Yeah, um, yeah, yeah and yet weshit on countries that are
actually based on theology.
It drives me, oh my god, thehypocrisy in this country just

(50:47):
drives me absolutely insane, anda lot of the doctrine of
religious folks.

Speaker 2 (50:50):
I mean, there is a lot, there's a lot of stuff in
the Bible, you know there's alot of shitty stuff.
There is some good stuff, andno matter what kind of Christian

(51:16):
you are, you're cherry picking,yeah, and so why not cherry
pick the good shit, right, andleave all the hateful stuff
picking, yeah, and so why notcherry pick the good shit Right
and leave all the hateful stuff?
Yeah, yeah.
But unfortunately that's notwhat a lot of people are doing.

Speaker 1 (51:30):
Sometimes, I think, the hatefulness gives you a
sense of righteousness and itmakes you feel important, and
that is unfortunate Absolutely.
It is really unfortunate,absolutely, and that is
unfortunate Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (51:40):
It is really unfortunate, you know, some of
it is just really baffling to mehow people can say things like
God chose America and just like,really like, americanize
Christianity.

Speaker 1 (51:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (51:55):
Like there's absolutely nothing in there.

Speaker 1 (51:57):
To suggest anything like that, no, no, nothing in
there to suggest anything likethat.
No, no, I mean, we we created alot of religion, christian
sects, yeah, but they, they cameafter we have created quite a
bit of of lore around that youknow as much as as much as those
type of christians try to claimyou.

Speaker 2 (52:18):
You know strict adherence to the Bible.
You know like that stuff is notanywhere near the Bible?

Speaker 1 (52:28):
Yeah, and it also amuses me to no end that a lot
of these people also revere thefounding fathers, but the
founding fathers were deists.

Speaker 2 (52:37):
Right, very much so.

Speaker 1 (52:40):
Very much, so I think they would probably cringe at
much of this.

Speaker 2 (52:45):
yeah, they were quite concerned about the religious
zealots of their time.

Speaker 1 (52:49):
Yeah, very much so.
I mean there is a reason thatthey constructed our government
the way that it was constructed,and we seem to be just ignoring
all of that well, not we.

Speaker 2 (53:04):
And one thing like I was saying about, like the
puritans and the calvinists, youknow like our country was built
from this amalgamation ofreligious extremists that
basically got kicked out ofeurope because they were so
ridiculous that Europeans couldnot tolerate them.

Speaker 1 (53:25):
Yeah, and they couldn't even tolerate each
other.
The tiniest bit of differencewould just set these people off.
I mean, they even exiled people.
Some of the colonies werecreated because the religious
zealots kicked out the otherreligious zealots, the religious
zealots kicked out the otherreligious zealots, yep, or I
should say the people who wereslightly less zealous in their

(53:45):
beliefs.
Religious harmony was theirmain goal.
Until you started getting youknow, rhode Island and places
like that set up.

Speaker 2 (53:55):
Well, I mean, and that happens now is happening
now both you, you know, withthat religious strata and, like
I said, the political startedwith a theologization.
That's not a word but, like youknow, the, the incorporation of
, you know, religiosity, uh, sodeeply embedded apart, and not

(54:21):
just the polit, the religiousright you know, it's in the left
as well yeah, it is.
But yeah, but it's particularlyextreme in in the right.
But but if you, certainly inthe far right, yeah, if you sit
those people I mean the right isthe far right, in my opinion,
the left is the center right butif you, if you sit those people

(54:48):
in a room long enough, you knowthey're going to do the exact
same thing, because somebody isnot extreme enough for somebody
else.
Yeah, and and it's kind ofbecomes a contest of who is the
most extreme.
Yeah, yeah, that's that's whythey love Trump.
Yeah, yep, did you see that?

(55:11):
Did you see that video where hewas like I think it was the
same video where he was tellingpeople they didn't have to vote
again in four years?
But he also said, like he waslike I love Christians.
I'm not a Christian, but I loveChristians.
Like he just says it and theyjust completely glaze over that

(55:31):
part.
So we were at the familyconflict.
So, yeah, like he just says it.
Like he just says it and theyjust completely glaze over that
part.
Yeah, so we were at the familyconflict.
So, yeah, lack of familyacceptance is the primary cause
of homelessness for LGBTQIA plusyouth.
However, family rejection isnot the only cause.
Other issues include aging outof the foster system.
Poverty shortages for shelter,accommodations and housing

(55:56):
programs also leave queerchildren with nowhere to go.
And bringing it back to thedomestic violence connection in
this community has higher ratesof domestic violence
victimization as well domesticviolence victimization as well.
Bisexual women are more likelyto be subjected to physical
abuse, sexual assault andstalking than heterosexual women

(56:18):
.
Lesbian and gay men reportedhigher levels of intimate
partner violence and sexualviolence when compared to
heterosexual relationships.
When compared to heterosexualrelationships, lgbtqia plus
youth leaving home to fleesexual violence in the home is

(56:39):
also a common pathway tohomelessness and, once unhoused,
lgbtqia plus youth are atincreased risk for becoming
victims of human trafficking.
Anti-black racism, whitesupremacy and housing
discrimination also createadditional roadblocks and make
it difficult for Black LGBTQIAplus youth to exit housing

(57:03):
insecurity, anti-gay andtransgender stigmas, family
rejection and hostile politicalclimates also increase the risk
that LGBTQIA plus youth willremain unhoused.
Other exacerbating factors thatimpact housing security are
health, both mental andotherwise.

(57:24):
According to HUD, people livingin homeless shelters are twice
as likely as the generalpopulation to be living with
disabilities On a given night.
In 2023, 31% of the unhousedcommunity reported having a
serious mental illness, 24%reported conditions caused by

(57:47):
chronic substance abuse and 11%reported having HIV-AIDS.
Conditions such as diabetes,heart disease and HIV-AIDS are
found at higher rates among theunhoused population, sometimes
at rates three to six timeshigher than the general
population.
In 2024, one in 12 people inthe US hada substance abuse

(58:11):
disorder.
However, one in the US had asubstance abuse disorder.
However, 1 in 5 unhousedindividuals experienced a
substance abuse disorder.
In 2021, 23% of the USpopulation experienced mental
illness and 5.5% experiencedserious mental illness.
In contrast, 31.4% of unhousedindividuals reported

(58:34):
experiencing serious mentalillness.
In contrast, 31.4% of unhousedindividuals reported experience
serious mental illness.
Schizophrenia affects less than1% of the general US population.
Schizophrenia affects less than1% of the general US population
, but estimates suggest up to20% of people experiencing
housing insecurity are livingwith the disorder.

(58:54):
Veterans who seek medicaltreatment for opioids are 10
times more likely to experiencebeing unhoused than the general
population.
People who overdose whileunhoused are 9 times more likely
to die than those who overdosewhile being stably housed.
People with disabilities ingeneral are more likely to be

(59:14):
unhoused.
One quarter of unhoused peopleare reported to have a
disability, including physical,mental, developmental,
intellectual or substance abusedisorders.
Many people with disabilitieswho work are allowed to be paid
sub-minimum wages, and federaldisability benefit policies

(59:34):
restrict the amount of incomedisabled individuals can earn
monthly in order to stillqualify for benefits.
When many disabled people havemedical needs that are not
covered by regular privateinsurance, disability Medicare
is a necessity for their healthand survival.
Many shelters are notdisability accessible and when

(59:58):
turned away from shelters due tolack of accessibility, 7 out of
10 unhoused disabled peopleslept in dangerous locations
such as on sidewalks or underbridges, which have increased
negative health outcomes.
Shelter staff are alsountrained to work with people
with disabilities, which oftenimpacts those with invisible

(01:00:21):
disabilities, such as autism.
Criminalizing homelessness isbecoming more common, so, while
laws that criminalizehomelessness have been in
existence, recent years havewitnessed many states and
communities across the UnitedStates enacting additional laws
that fine and arrest people fordoing activities in public that
are otherwise legal in thesetting of a home, such as

(01:00:44):
sleeping, sitting, eating anddrinking.
These policies are ineffective,inexpensive and actually worse
than the tragedy of homelessness.
There is a better way torespond to this crisis.
Mayors and other localofficials are under a lot of
pressure to do something.
Anything With shortages foraffordable housing, funding that

(01:01:07):
is insufficient to meet theneed and a pandemic that has
stretched and strained systems,many communities are
understandably struggling withhow to address homelessness, but
blaming, criminalizing andmoving people from streets to
jails does not solvehomelessness or fix the systems
that created it.

(01:01:28):
Most states 48 states now outlawdaily survival activities such
as sleeping, eating, sitting orliving in your car.
In the last 15 years, there hasbeen a 50% rise in so-called
camping bans that make itillegal for certain people to
sleep in public spaces, withnearly 3-4, 72% of cities now

(01:01:52):
having such a ban, and theselaws are becoming tougher and
this Supreme Court decision isallowing those kind of laws to
become basically as tough asthey want.
Long story short, thesediscriminatory laws aren't
effective.
They punish people with finesup to $5,000 that they can't

(01:02:15):
afford and jail time.
That just puts jobs in jeopardyand sends people back out into
the streets with their newcriminal records.
That will make it hard to findhousing and jobs and makes it
difficult and sometimesimpossible to get into programs
that are in place to help peopleexit homelessness.
A lot of those programs thatexist have lots of provisions

(01:02:40):
like including that you're notsupposed to have a criminal
record, you're supposed to beclean, you're supposed to, like
have a source of income andstuff like that already, which
is a big problem.
Some of these laws eventhreaten to withhold state funds
from local governments andnon-profits if those camping
bans are not enforced.
They put governments at riskfor expensive civil rights

(01:03:04):
lawsuits and distract fromimplementing programs and
strategies that are botheffective and cost effective
programs and strategies that areboth effective and
cost-effective.
Such programs include permanentsupportive housing and housing
first, which is what I'mbasically going to talk about or
advocate, which is treatinghomelessness as a housing and

(01:03:28):
health crisis, not a problem forthe criminal justice system to
solve.
Criminalizing homelessness isvery expensive and it can cost
three times more money toenforce anti-homelessness laws
than to find housing for peoplewho don't have it.
Criminalization is a waste oftime for police officers, who
should be getting guns off thestreet, not moving people around

(01:03:50):
them.
Criminalization just fills upjails with people who are more
likely to be victims of violentcrime than the perpetrators of
violent crime and with peoplewho need treatment, which jails
are not equipped to provide formental and substance use
disorders.
And, most importantly,criminalization does not reduce

(01:04:10):
the number of peopleexperiencing homelessness.
It breaks connections peoplehad made with providers trying
to help and exacerbateshomelessness and the conditions
that lead to it, such as healthproblems and racial disparities.
Every year, well over a millionpeople experience homelessness
in the United States and, forthe first time, ever more

(01:04:32):
individuals experiencinghomelessness are living outside,
on the streets or in their carsthan are staying in shelters.
People just don't have anywhereto go.
Housing is too expensive.
There aren't enough shelterbeds.
In no US state.
Can anyone work full-time forminimum wage and still afford

(01:04:52):
rent for a modest two-bedroomapartment?
For every 100 extremelylow-income renters, only 36
affordable housing units areavailable.
Where are the rest of thepeople supposed to live?
Many shelters are full.
Many shelters are full and somehave requirements that ban

(01:05:16):
people if they're not sober.
Other shelters force people topart with their belongings, pets
or significant others if theywant to sleep indoors.
So there is a better way torespond to homelessness when
there results in fewer tents,more people in homes and more
cost savings than starts withcollaboration, not
criminalization.
Homelessness is a public healthand housing crisis and their

(01:05:38):
response should be driven bysolutions that ensure housing
and wraparound support, fromhealthcare, including mental and
substance use treatment, to jobtraining and education.
This requires constantcommunication across agencies,
sectors and jurisdictions.
It also needs elected officials, businesses and the faith
community and peopleexperiencing homelessness to be

(01:05:59):
involved in policymaking.
There is no one-size-fits-allsolution, but best practices
have emerged After studyingcommunity responses and
collaborating with federalagencies in the US Integrity
Council.
Integrity council onhomelessness creates several
principles for addressingencampments, the most visible
form of homelessness that hasintensified the pressure

(01:06:21):
pressure to criminalize.
If a community takes time andmakes investments to implement
these principles, more peoplecan move off the streets and
into homes, and the main thingis to connect people as rapidly
as possible to housing or a lowbarrier shelter if housing is
not immediately available.

(01:06:41):
So, by embracing housing first,which is based on this Finnish
program, instead of lockingpeople up for struggling to
survive, one city saved 2.44million and housed 1,000 people
in a single year.
While housing is the immediatesolution, it's not the only
solution To solve homelessness.

(01:07:02):
We must provide people withvoluntary supports.
They need one, including mentalhealth care and substance use
treatment.
So it goes on like that, butbasically Don't have a lot of
time, but I wanted to touch on,yeah, what Finland is doing, and
they have reduced Homelessnessby something like 60 to 80

(01:07:25):
percent Different sources ofdifferent figures and they have.
Their goal is to reduce.
It's difficult to get exactfigures Because people hide the
fact that they're unhoused andcouch surf and stuff like that.
Is basically what one articlesaid.
Their goal is to eradicatehomelessness by 2027.

(01:07:47):
And they have made prettysignificant inroads towards
doing that.
And what they've done is justconverted pre-existing housing,
which the US has tons of unusedhousing and they've just
converted pre-existing housingsuch as like empty student dorms

(01:08:07):
, empty apartment buildings andstuff like that into housing,
modest housing for people whowere previously homeless.
So they get a small apartment,you know their own small private
space and they get to move in.
And that community also haslike resources right in hand for

(01:08:30):
like like medical care,substance abuse treatment,
counseling and group therapy andall of that stuff and it has an
over 80% success rate and, yeah, it's pretty fucking awesome.
Program is like I said, a lotof US programs have all these

(01:08:51):
prerequisites for people to getin they have to be clean, they
have to have jobs and income,they have to do this, they have
to do that, they have to have aclean record.
And basically Finland is sayingno.
The term says housing first weget people into housing and then
, when they're secure, then theyhave, they have the space, they

(01:09:15):
have the opportunity, they havethe resources to fix these
other issues and it's extremelyeffective.
And now Denmark is is doing thesame thing and having similar
results.
It's, it's really pretty awesome.
Okay, so I need to pretty muchwrap it up.
Um, I wanted to go over someother stuff, like I kind of

(01:09:39):
touched on it with some likemyths and and stuff like that
about homelessness.
Like I kind of touch on that,like how people think that a lot
of homeless people areperpetrators of violent crime
and they're not.

Speaker 1 (01:09:54):
They're more likely to be victims.

Speaker 2 (01:09:56):
Yeah, exactly, they're more likely to be
victims.
They're all homeless peopledon't have jobs, when actually,
like something around 40%actually do have jobs.
That story about that defensecontractor blew me away in how,
yeah, that's good money, yeah,and yet he was paying 50% in

(01:10:18):
rent.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:10:20):
It should not cost that much to live.
Yep, by virtue of the fact thatyou are a citizen of a country,
should mean that yourgovernment takes care of you,
and it is unfortunate that thereare so many people who claim to
be patriots and who claim tobelieve in God and who claim to
be good people, who are?

(01:10:41):
willing to let their fellowcitizens be impoverished or go
without affordable Medicare.
It just it baffles me by virtueof the fact that you are a
human being.
It just it baffles me by virtueof the fact that you are a
human being.
Yes, yes, but I mean, if we'relooking at it in terms of yes,
being a human being should beperiod, dot, end of sentence.
But just putting it in more ofa political perspective, you

(01:11:05):
would think that everybody wouldbe down for everybody being
able to afford their shit.

Speaker 2 (01:11:12):
Yeah, well, you know, and people also with these
people that I was talking aboutwith the vitriol, about the
unhouse, oh, my tax dollar thisand my tax dollar that, that
people you know who are notcitizens also pay a ridiculous
amount of taxes.

(01:11:33):
Yes, and so I'm not saying likeyou know, with the connection
with the unhoused, but in termsof like people also do that with
health care as well.

Speaker 1 (01:11:45):
Yeah, no, I know they do a lot of things.

Speaker 2 (01:11:46):
They're like we don't want, you know, immigrants
getting our Medicaid so thatthey can get free health care,
and blah, blah, blah yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:12:02):
Yes, but yeah, it just, it boggles it just the
hatred and theself-righteousness that people
have, and I and I I realize thatI'm acting self-righteous
myself right now, but I thinkthere's a difference in the
sense that the people who saythose nasty things I don't wish

(01:12:22):
them ill.
I would like them to changetheir minds.
I would like them to grow aheart but, I don't wish them ill
.

Speaker 2 (01:12:29):
Whereas people like that actively wish people ill,
absolutely, yeah, yeah, and it'sreally yeah, people were
actively wishing that individualwho got their clothes thrown
around ill.
Or another post it was about anindividual who swore at

(01:12:51):
somebody in a shop and the shopmanager or the work cashier I'm
not sure what they were wantedthe police to arrest that person
for having sworn at somebodyelse.
Yeah, and was very incensedwhen the police didn't arrest
them.
Yeah, and yeah, somebody elsewas like just pepper spray, the

(01:13:15):
unhoused person that is, yeah, Idon't understand that and it's,
yeah, it's, it's.
I just can't with that yeah, no,I can't either.

Speaker 1 (01:13:25):
I I don't understand wishing anybody badly.
I I don't.

Speaker 2 (01:13:31):
I don't understand the desire to hurt people and
people are like, oh it's, it'sso unsafe and and, like we
mentioned before, it's it's notlike homeless people are not.
They're not more violent thananybody else.
And I walk, take the bus allover town.

(01:13:52):
There's typically quite a numberof unhoused people on around
the bus because now the bus isfree right fucking awesome
that's one awesome thing that wedo do here and like you know
the worst, the worst parts mightyou know somebody is delusive

(01:14:16):
and maybe they're like yellingor ranting, or maybe somebody
smells bad because you know theyneed a shower, but like, give
them a little grace, like theydon't have access to that, like
people don't enjoy smelling bad,Like people don't enjoy
smelling bad.
Exactly, in fact, one of thesearticles about the Finnish

(01:14:47):
system and they were talkinginterviewing one gentleman who
was a recipient of the programand he said when he first got
into the program like he wouldshower up to 10 times a day yeah
.
Because it was just so fuckingawesome that he could do that.

Speaker 1 (01:14:56):
I know that's yeah.
No, I know, I.
I mean I I was lucky in thesense that I was in a camper van
for vacation, right yeah, inaustralia.
But yeah, going even a daywithout a shower was so
disgusting I I can't imaginegoing even longer.

Speaker 2 (01:15:14):
When it's hot and it's dusty and it's just
unpleasant.
And then people make itdifficult for them to clean up
in bathrooms and stuff like that.
Make it so that unhoused peoplecan't use public restrooms.

Speaker 1 (01:15:33):
Okay, let's do a quick.
I mean, we already said, Ididn't read, you read yes.

Speaker 2 (01:15:38):
I read a number of things.

Speaker 1 (01:15:41):
What is in the interest of time?
What was the one that youenjoyed the most?

Speaker 2 (01:15:46):
I think the poem is where the bodies are was pretty
interesting, although I didguess who was the guilty person
pretty early on, so but it butyeah, that was fun to see the
different whoops, to see thedifferent povs.
I like that, um.

(01:16:09):
And the sand book I thought waspretty uh, like innovative, like
it was a little bit like adifferent kind of take with like
, uh, like a post-apocalypticworld covered in sand, and these
people like use kind of magicscuba suits, kind of things to

(01:16:32):
dive through like deep sanddunes, and that was pretty neat,
yeah.
So those were both pretty good.

Speaker 1 (01:16:40):
Yeah, I found books I would like to read.
You've read Victor LaVille,right?
Lone Woman yes, I did.
And Changeling.
I read Lone Woman.
I haven't read Changeling.
Yeah, I haven't read anythingby him, but I found a book that
I think is right up my alley,written by him.
Why is my phone being weird?
Called Big Machine and it'sabout Is it a dildo?

(01:17:08):
Darn.
No, but it involves a cultsurvivor, uh, paranormal
investigators who are alsoformer addicts and petty
criminals.
Okay, cool, so that justsounded like fun.
Should we put that on our list?
We should put it on our listand I swear, I swear to god I
don't believe it that I willhave Bad Cree done.

(01:17:32):
Okay, I will have it done.
I will have it done this week,I promise.
I know that you have a hardtime remembering things, but
once in the morning and once inthe evening, tell me read Bad
Cree.

Speaker 2 (01:17:48):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:17:49):
And then I'll remember, I'll put down my phone
.
I'll try and set an alarm toremember.
I mean, you'd think I wouldremember my song and every time
I go I have it on my bed stand.

Speaker 2 (01:18:00):
One of the problems, though, is I get so many
notifications for just likerandom shit.
Yeah, no.

Speaker 1 (01:18:04):
I know I don't even look at mine anymore.
I have it on my bed stand sothat I will pick it up and read
it.
But then I'm like, oh, I havethis free picture to color today
.
I'm going to go do that.
I hear you and then I know Ineed, you need to go.
But I got really excited aboutthis little game that really you
don't do much of anything.
It's called Lifely Island andit's Japanese.

(01:18:27):
Is it like cozy core, kind of?
It's very cozy, and so you get ahome which is kind of a
humanoid type thing, and you geta little lively that has been
constructed in a lab and youhave to take care of the lively
and you can decorate the islandand decorate the home and all of
this stuff and basically allyou do is you shower it, feed it

(01:18:52):
and make it poop so that youcan get diamonds out of it,
which is currency, and then youhelp other people by watering
their trees and that's it.

Speaker 2 (01:19:02):
You should send me the link.

Speaker 1 (01:19:04):
I will.

Speaker 2 (01:19:04):
It sounds like a wonderful waste of time.

Speaker 1 (01:19:06):
It is a wonderful waste of time and it is very
soothing.

Speaker 2 (01:19:10):
Facebook was advertising Tamagotchis to me
and I was so tempted, oh I know,oh my god, I saw one at barnes
and noble.

Speaker 1 (01:19:18):
They are so insanely expensive like.
They were like what?
10 bucks back in the 90s?
Yeah, they're like double thatnow.
Wow, well, at least the one atbarnes and noble was.
But yeah, sounds about right,yeah, yeah, I'm kicking myself
for getting rid of my tamagotchi.
It had still been working forlike a decade after I got it
mine oh, what a turd.

Speaker 2 (01:19:41):
Yeah, was it, stephanie no, it was laura, oh,
I was gonna say she thought Ilet her cat out.
But he like fucking got out allthe time and I didn't let him
out.
I'm pretty sure he escaped outthe window, but she retaliated
by the Tamagotchi.
Yeah, she like smashed myTamagotchi.

Speaker 1 (01:20:01):
So you were the Joe to her, amy, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:20:05):
And it was a Tamagotchi angel too.
It was like one of the littleangel ones.
Aww, those are rare.

Speaker 1 (01:20:13):
Yeah.
I don't remember what mine was.
I think I just let it go.

Speaker 2 (01:20:19):
I'm 1000% sure that she's not listening to this
because I don't even talk to heranymore, but if she is, you owe
me a Tamagotchi angel.
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:20:30):
Okay.
So yeah, that's it.
I know we gotta go becausewe're recording very late.
Yes, um and uh.
Next time is me, two moreepisodes from now.
So basically that's like thefirst week of september I
believe will be our book, realquick yeah, yeah, we'll be our

(01:20:51):
book episode, and that is littlecrazy children by James Renner.
Uh, we met, I met him at crimecon.
Is it about my children?
I don't think so.
Okay, um, all right.

Speaker 2 (01:21:08):
So find out.

Speaker 1 (01:21:09):
Yeah, okay, so we will talk to you next time.
Bye, bye.