Hard2Get: The Untimely Murders of JB Beasley and Tracie Hawlett

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Kiki and I'm Rachel, and this is Details Are
Sketchy, a true crime podcast,and this is episode 20.
So this one's going to be alittle bit different because a
number of reasons, but therewon't be any missing person in
this episode, partly becausethis is going to be a long one
Rachel's got her case, which islonger than expected.

(00:22):
Rachel's got her case, which islonger than expected, and also
because we have the book to talkabout, the Witch of New York.
So I guess we're just going tolaunch right into Rachel's thing
unless she has something shewants to say.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
No, I wanted to say is that I tried to go for a
short episode and you hadadvised me to just pick a random
episode of 2020 or something,which I did do, but then I had
questions about the occurrencesin the episode and it turned out

(01:00):
to be less straightforward thanI had hoped and, unfortunately,
because I'm a procrastinatorand I didn't have time to choose
something else, so we're goingwith it.
Okay, so the the 2020 episode Ichose was called forever 17.

(01:24):
And, uh, it did air this thisyear, I think in like May or
something like that, maybe inJune, but it it covered the 1999
murders of two teenage girls,jb Beasley and Tracy Hollett.
On August 1st 1999 in Ozark,alabama.

(01:51):
The black Mazda of JB wasdiscovered on this side of the
road, according to a formerclassmate of the deceased,
Veronica Silver.
Veronica Silver is the name ofthe classmate, not of the
deceased.
I realized that I didn't putthat very clearly.

(02:11):
Quote Ozark is a small, sleepytown.

Speaker 1 (02:16):
Aren't they always small?
And sleepy towns where nothingbad ever happens.
Neighbors don't lock theirdoors.

Speaker 2 (02:24):
They're like we've never heard of a crime in our
life.
So I put on a personal note I'mtired of hearing about how
small or lazy or innocent orunassuming XYZ small town is in
various true crime shows.
Yep, and I wrote that humannature is constant everywhere in
the world.
Murder happens everywhere.

(02:45):
But back to the topic at hand,ozark has, or had I wasn't clear
on whether or not they werereferring to the census numbers
from 1999 or the current numbersyeah, 14,000 residents, so
pretty small.
Yeah, 14,000 residents, sopretty small.

(03:06):
And that part of Alabama isknown as the wiregrass region,
apparently because the grassthat grows in that area is like
a wiry type of varietal.
Huh, yeah, the two victimslived in a nearby, slightly
larger town of Dothan, which hadabout 70,000 residents, which

(03:30):
is known as the peanut capitalof the world.

Speaker 1 (03:35):
I think Sudan would probably question that.
Yeah, I think it's Sudan.

Speaker 2 (03:42):
This region is known for growing lots of peanuts and
they have a peanut festivalevery year.
They were showing some scenesabout it and I was like, wow, I
cannot take my son there.
My son is allergic to peanuts.
So, aside from that peanutcapital thing, which they went
on about longer than wasnecessary at Capitol thing,

(04:08):
which they went on about longerthan was necessary, so these 17
year olds were going into theirsenior year, or were about to go
into their senior year of highschool.
Jb was described as funny,charismatic and a talented
dancer.
Tracy was a majorette, which Ididn't know until yesterday is

(04:28):
what those baton twirlers in themarching band are called.
And so she did that.
And she was also known as astudious learner.
She had a 4.0 GPA and they saidshe was a Sunday school teacher
, which I don't know how I feelabout that, since she was.

Speaker 1 (04:51):
At 17?

Speaker 2 (04:52):
Yeah, just a 17-year-old.
It seems kind of like kind of araw deal to me.
So she had a part-time job atTracy Penny.
Her name is Tracy.
Tracy had a part-time job atJCPenney, at the local mall, and

(05:15):
JB would frequent the mall toshop and hang out with her.
On Friday, july 31, 1999, jbinvited Tracy to come join her
at a birthday party, whichturned out to be a local party.
I was a little bit confusedabout that point, because they

(05:36):
said that it was JB's party andthey said she invited her to a
birthday party, but it didn'tseem like it was JB's birthday
party, so I was a little bitconfused about that.
It seemed like it was just abirthday party, yeah, so Tracy's
mother was reluctant becauseshe had wanted Tracy home by her

(05:59):
curfew at 1130.
But Tracy and JB assured herthat they would be home by that
time.
Veronica Silver reported thatJB and Tracy planned to have a
sleepover at JB's and then go tochurch together on Sunday,
which I thought sounded like alittle bit of an angelic

(06:23):
portraiture of these17-year-olds.
Yeah, I don't know, Maybe theywere like that.
So JB had a car, a black Mazda929 that was a gift from her
father.
Jb's guardian reported she keptit very clean and in good
condition.
She kept it very clean and ingood condition.

(06:49):
Jb picked up Tracy at nine andthey went to JB's house to
change and leave for the fieldparty, which I'm like.
So is the field party thebirthday party or is this a
different party?
That was another point that Iwasn't clear on.
So the field party is basicallylike a bonfire party.
It's like a local town partywhere they have a bonfire in a
field and they didn't say so butthey get drunk.

(07:11):
Basically, However, the girlsreportedly never made it to the
party.

Speaker 1 (07:17):
Oh no.

Speaker 2 (07:17):
Yeah, which makes me think that it couldn't have been
JB's party, because certainlyshe would have known where her
own party was.

Speaker 1 (07:26):
Yeah, maybe other people were throwing it for her.

Speaker 2 (07:30):
Yeah, at some point they pull over to a gas station
in Ozark and a woman and herteenage daughter gave them
directions back home.
Back home, before they left thegas station, tracy called her
mom on a payphone because atthat point she was just past her
curfew of 1130.

(07:50):
The call was made at like 1138.
She told her mom they hadgotten lost in Ozark looking for
the party, but they had gottendirections and were now headed
home.
Tracy's mother reported thatTracy did not sound worried or
stressed.
They said I love you and hungup the call and that was the

(08:12):
last that anyone heard fromeither of the girls.
Tracy's mother reported shewent to bed around 1230 that
night, expecting to wake up toher daughter being home, but
when she woke up around five inthe morning the kitchen light
that she had left on for her wasstill on and the girls were not
there.
Tracy's father, mike, went outand drove to Ozark looking for

(08:36):
the girls.
He was looking on the sides ofthe road and in ditches in case
they had been in a car accident,but he couldn't find anything.
Meanwhile Tracy's mom calledboth of the local hospitals and
when that didn't turn upanything she called the police.
The police put out an alert tobe on the lookout for JB's Black

(08:58):
Mazda around 8 pm.
Within a few hours the car hadbeen found on the side of a
rural road in Ozark calledHerring Avenue, a location not
too far from the gas stationwhere Tracy had last called her
mother.
The car was found unlocked,with the windows rolled down.

(09:19):
There were no signs of externaldamage to the car or signs it
had been in an accident.
The girls' things were allstill in the car their purses,
their wallets, their money.
Tracy's keys, which boreTracy's keys, sorry, were still
in the car.

(09:39):
But the only thing missing wasJB's keys, which bore a white
and black key chain reading hardto get, like a two Hard to get,
as they do in the 90s.
There was no sign in or aroundthe car to indicate that a

(09:59):
struggle had taken place.
There were some nearby housesand initially officers
entertained the idea that thecar had been broken down and the
girls may have left the car andwalked away for help.
They decided to keep, althoughto me I'm like.
Why would they if the car brokedown and they walked away?

(10:21):
Why would they leave the carunlocked and leave all their
things in the car?
Right, that doesn't make sense,no, it doesn't, they decided to
keep a patrol car nearby towatch the mazda, in case the
girl showed back up.
Hours passed with no newinformation.
Officer alton miller, a nowretired juvenile investigator

(10:43):
with Dothan Police DepartmentCriminal Investigation Division
and a close friend of thefamily's, decided to head down
to the scene.
Immediately.
He sensed that something wasoff about the potential crime
scene.
He wondered had anyone checkedthe trunk Nearly six hours after
the discovery of the vehicle.

(11:04):
They had not.
Miller's wife owned a similarmazda and he knew that there was
a button on the driver's sidedoor to automatically pop the
trunk, so he did so.
Unfortunately, this revealedthe bodies of the missing teen
who had been there the wholetime.

(11:24):
Later on during theinvestigation, the police would
give conflicting testimony aboutwhen the bodies were found.
Ozark Police Sergeant BobbyBlankenship would report that,
due to the officers initiallyinvestigating the case as a
missing persons report that thebodies were not found around

(11:45):
till 2 PM in the afternoon.
However, on this stand, altonMiller claimed he went down and
made the discovery as early as11 AM.
I'm going to go with a longertimeline because that's what the
2020 documentary indicated andthat seemed to be more
consistent with all of thedifferent testimonies, the Ozark

(12:07):
Police Department seemed prettyclear that they were sitting
there watching the car for hours, and that report certainly
doesn't do them any favors, so Idon't see why they would lie
about that.

Speaker 1 (12:18):
Right.

Speaker 2 (12:20):
The girls were lying there in the trunk head to feet.
The girls were lying there inthe trunk head to feet.
Both of them had been shotexecution style with what turned
out to be a 9mm pistol.
They had their hands up towardtheir faces in anticipation of
what was coming.
They had been ordered into thetrunk and then shot.

(12:43):
The girls were found fullyclothed, with no obvious signs
of a struggle.
Tracy had been killed by asingle shot to the temple.
There was a scratch on her armand there were brighter thorns
stuck in her pants.
Her brand new shoes werecovered in mud.
From the way they werepositioned in the trunk it

(13:07):
looked like she had been placedor ordered into the trunk first.
There is a nine millimetershell casing on her leg.
Jb had been shot in the cheekand she was covered in mud.
Both her clothes and her shoeswere dirty.
Her socks were wet.
Both girls' pants were wetbelow the knee.
The police contest that thisindicates that they were not in

(13:30):
the area where the car was found, because the ground there was
solid and the crime took placeelsewhere, and then the killer
drove the car with the girls inthe trunk to the location it was
found, and this was furthersupported by the blood splatter
found on the excuse me on theunderside of the car through an

(13:53):
exit bullet hole in the trunk.
The blood spray was blown backon the underside of the car as
if the car was in motion.
As the blood dropped from thehole, the police reported they
never found the murder weapon.
And this was.
There's some more.
I'll give some more point ofcontention about that later.
But this was some informationthey were incredibly sparse

(14:15):
about.
They didn't really give anyinformation about their search
or anything that they did to tryand locate the murder weapon.
They just said they didn't findit and they also never found
the original crime scene.
So interestingly and I'll coverthis more later a paperboy who
reported seeing the car beforeit was discovered three times

(14:39):
did suggest an earlier crimescene.
However, that report wassomehow not filed and nearly 20
years later, when he testifiedon the stand about what he had
seen, his eyewitness testimonywas discredited.
So we'll get into that later.
So autopsies revealed thatneither girl had been raped and

(15:00):
there were no traces of drugs oralcohol in their systems.
However, two months after theinitial report, the State Crime
Lab released a report thatshowed traces of semen had been
found on JB's bra, panties andskin.
An unknown palm print wasrecovered from the lid of the

(15:21):
trunk, according to the StoneCoat Project, and police felt
that the DNA evidence from thelid of the trunk, according to
the Stone Cold Project, andpolice felt that the DNA
evidence from the semen wascrucial in their investigation,
so the police led a search tofind the killer or killers.
Some extremely grainysurveillance footage at the gas

(15:43):
station showed a white truckpulling up and sitting at the
station around the time thegirls were at the gas station.
In the 2020 episode, the policereported that they had
interviewed that suspect andthey claimed that he went to get
gas, but then he ended up notgetting gas and then just left

(16:06):
the station, and I thought thatthat was really suspicious and
weird and I didn't understandwhy would you go get gas and
then change your mind, and notget gas and then leave?
The only reason that I couldthink of is if you discovered
that you didn't have money, thator price and that I could think
of is if you discovered thatyou didn't have money, that or
price, yeah, or that.

(16:27):
However, there was no more wordon that suspect.
There is no seemingly in-depthinvestigation on that suspect
and, according to the Stone ColdProject, that truck and that
driver seem to have disappearedand there are no details about
that that person.
There was a suspect frommichigan who was at a party I

(16:51):
don't know if it's that samefield party or a different party
the night of the murders, nearwhere the car was found, who was
considered a viable suspect.
According to detective speevy,even after the test failed to
match DNA that found on JBBeasley's clothing, although, as

(17:12):
we're going to go over later,the police used the DNA as like
the end-all be-all and I don'tnecessarily think I think that
there could be other things.
But anyway, I don't think thatnot matching the DNA should have
necessarily ruled out suspects,but we'll get into that later.

(17:35):
The man, who Speevy would notname, left town within days of
the murders, adding thatinvestigators have traveled to
Michigan three different timesto interview that suspect.
The man cannot account forthree or four hours of his time
on the night of the murders andlater made suspicious statements
to people, but Spivey declinedto elaborate on what he meant by

(17:59):
suspicious, the man frommississippi.
In early march 2000 it wasreported that a dna sample taken
from a man in jones county,mississippi, was being compared
to samples taken from the bodyof jb beasley.
But speevy reported no factualevidence known at the time

(18:21):
linked the man to the brutalmurders of the Alabama girls.
Spivey said the man who wasextradited from Jones County had
been arrested there on anoutstanding warrant for the
possession of drug paraphernaliaissued in Ozark.
The man had been staying withrelatives in Ozark but left two
days after the murders and,according to Spivey,

(18:43):
investigators wanted to questionhim in connection with the
murders.
And, according to Spivey,investigators wanted to question
him in connection with the case.
Quote he has been extensivelyinterviewed and DNA samples have
been obtained and sent to theforensics labs.
Spivey reported at the time butthis time we do not have any
factual information to connecthim to the case.
We just want to be double surehe's not involved.

(19:04):
End quote.
I felt like that Michigan one,although there's very limited
information about that one.
I felt like that Michigan onesounded odd, like I wanted more
information about that one.
This Mississippi one seemedlike maybe they were just
investigating him because of the, the drug warrant.

(19:25):
The strange confession of johnnywilliam barrentine.
This is where this poor guyokay.
So at 11 30 on the night ofjuly 31st 1999.
At the same time, tracy hollettcalled her mother from the
payphone at the little big store.
28-year-old part-time mechanic,johnny William Barentine, told

(19:46):
his young wife he was going outto buy milk for the couple's
two-year-old son.
Barentine did not return homeuntil shortly before 1 am and,
according to his wife, when hecame in he was visibly upset.
When asked, he told her his carhad been hit by a black truck
with a Dothan tag near herringavenue.

(20:06):
In the days that followed, barontyne would confide to others he
knew something about themurders of the two teens found
on herring avenue.
Quote he just said he thoughthe might know who did.
It said avalin murphy, whoseboyfriend, leon jordan,
encountered baron tyne.
Encourage so sorry Barentine togo to the authorities and

(20:27):
collect the reward they wereoffering a $200,000 reward for
information leading to an arrest.
Barentine finally took theadvice and on September 1st, one
month after the bodies of JBand Tracy were found, he met

(20:47):
with police for what would turnout to be a four-hour videotaped
interview, ultimately tellingsix different stories, and, in
some of them, placing himself atthe scene of the crime of the

(21:11):
crime.
According to Ozark police chiefTony R Spivey, barentine
initially said that on the nightof the killings he had seen a
black truck speeding away fromthe area where the girls were
found.
As the interview continued, hechanged his story several times,
finally claiming he'd picked upa tattooed man he didn't know,
and the two drove by the BigLittle Store.
Barentine said the man to whomhe had given a ride got into a

(21:33):
car with the two girls whomBarentine identified as quote
the dead girls end quote andtold him to follow.
He said they ended up onHerring Avenue where the man got
the girls out of the car.
Barentine said he heard twogunshots and when the man
returned, barentine gave him aride from the scene and then

(21:56):
went home.
In another version, barentineconfessed to the investigators
that the man he'd picked up andgiven a ride to was actually his
neighbor.
Alarmingly, barrington livedless than a mile .8 miles to be
exact from where policediscovered the girls' bodies.
This seems to me like a themewith all the suspects, but it's

(22:22):
a pretty small area so of courseeverybody doesn't live that
fucking far away.
Right.
Police arrested Barentine thenand there naming him the prime
suspect and charging him withtwo counts of capital murder.
But there were lots of problemswith his accounts.
He never mentioned sexualactivity and would account that

(22:44):
would account for the semenfound on JB's clothing and body.
The neighbor he implicated hadan alibi for the evening and the
DNA from the semen did notmatch that of Barentine or the
neighbor.
Barentine, whose mugshot makeshim look as though he has been
startled from a deep sleep lookas though he has been startled

(23:05):
from a deep sleep immediatelyadmitted that he had fabricated
the whole story in hopes ofscoring some quick cash.
Quote I didn't see anything.
End quote.
He later told the grand jury.
Quote I made up everything toget the reward money.
End quote.
Quote he says he was there.
Endquote.

(23:26):
Speevy said explaining whatmade Barentine a suspect.
This part because obviouslythis dude first of all was an
unreliable suspect.
And then they show clips of himbeing interviewed and the
police were asking him veryleading questions.
Quote he relayed to us aboutgetting the girls out of the car

(23:46):
.
One of the girls ran.
The girls were combative, whichthat doesn't fit either because
they didn't have defensivewounds.
The individual placed the girlsin the trunk.
Two shots were fired.
The gunman comes back to thecar.
Something is in his hand.
He drove the gunman outside thecity.

(24:07):
He returned home.
End quote.
Returned home.
Endquote.
In a September 21st hearing,alabama Bureau of Investigation
agent Charles Huggins testifiedthat Barentine was able to
describe the girl's clothing andother items consistent with the
crime.
Speedy said the districtattorney, who was present during

(24:29):
the September 1st interview,instructed police to arrest
Barentine when his arrest wasannounced at a press conference.
Speevy said the police wereconfident they arrested the
right man.
Quote.
What do you do?
End quote.
Speevy would say later If youdon't charge him, maybe you just

(24:50):
let a killer walk out the door.
You're between a rock and ahard place.
He never said he killed him.
That's another thing that, likehe never even said he killed
him, like at most he said thathe was aiding and abetting the
killer.
Barrington was held withoutbond in the Dale County Jail

(25:11):
from the time of his arrestSeptember 1st.
In October 18, bond hearingbefore the circuit judge PB
McLaughlin, barentine denied hewas involved in the killings,
although he told police hewatched the two 17-year-olds
being shot to death by anacquaintance who had tattoos all
over his arms.

(25:31):
Barentine told the judge henever picked up a tattooed man
and he didn't see anything thenight of the murders.
He said he simply went to theBP about 11pm to get milk for
his little boy.
Mclaughlin denied Barentinebond and appointed 36-year-old
veteran lawyer Bill Caminos torepresent the defendant.

(25:54):
36 year old is a veteranlawyer.
Barentine's friends and familystood by him, professing his
innocence to anyone who wouldlisten.
Quote.
He did not do it.
His mother, faye Barentine,adamantly told reporters the day
after her her son's arrest heis not did not do it.
His mother, faye Barrington,adamantly told reporters the day
after her son's arrest he isnot capable of doing it.

(26:16):
He has a two-year-old son andhe is not capable of doing
anything to hurt a child.
Camino said his client hadobviously stumbled into a
situation with investigatorsthat he wasn't capable of
handling.
Quote.
As a lawyer, you need to takewhat your client says with a
grain of salt sometimes.
End quote.
He continued speaking in slow,measured tones.

(26:38):
His hands held together, almostas if he were praying.
Quote.
But I had a feeling from thevery beginning.
In viewing the car and viewingthe evidence, I said to myself
quote no, johnny Barentine couldnot have done
this.
The police were under intensepressure to make an arrest.
Caminos contended and that pileof reward money kept growing.

(27:01):
It grew large enough to lure inBarentine.
Caminos alleged they started,they questioned and they
questioned and questioned forfour hours.
They started, they questionedand they questioned and
questioned for four hours.
It's all on video and thequestions turned from questions
to accusations, from accusationsto

(27:22):
suggestions.
Barentine, who had lived inOzark for several years and was
residing at 110 Young Avenue Idon't know why they're giving
his address with his wife andson said he first went to Speevy
several days after the murdersto tell him of a rumor.
He gave Speevy a name and wastold the police had already

(27:42):
checked out the rumor and theman Barentine named was not a
suspect.
Also several days after themurder, barentine reportedly
said he and his wife andbrother-in-law went to the scene
on Herring Street where the carwas found, looking for
something that might help thepolice solve the case.
Wouldn't that area be roped off?
Barrington claimed he was tiredwhen he told the story to

(28:06):
police.
In the September 1st interviewat the police station he said he
was interviewed for more thanfour hours and was told he could
not go to the bathroom or leaveat any time.
He said police quote tricked meinto telling the story.
At one hearing it was reportedthat Barentine finished only the

(28:27):
7th grade and a portion of the8th grade and was in special
educationclasses.
Delval lawyer Joe Gallo said hedidn't believe police, who were
under intense pressure to solvethe case, would drop charges
against Barentine if theybelieved he was remotely
involved.
Yet Gallo offered noexplanation for Barentine's

(28:48):
stories except to say Barentinesuffered mild mental.
I'm not going to say Barentinesuffered mild mental.
I'm not going to say that word.
The R word, quote, you've gotme, he concluded.
After it was revealedBarentine's DNA did not match
that from the semen found onJB's body and clothing.
The judge improved Barentine'sbond request.

(29:10):
He was released from jailFriday December
17th.
In January a Dale County grandjury declined to indict
Barentine Quote.
Barentine is living inDaleville now.
Camino said at the time why arethey telling people where he
lives?
It's like they keep tellingpeople where he lives.
Stop doxing this man and tryingto pick up the pieces.

(29:35):
Camino said no physicalevidence exists leaking
Barentine to the murders.
Nevertheless, police stillconsider him, although I'm sure
they don't consider him suspectanymore because now they have
somebody in jail, speevy said,noting that Barentine is also
alleged to have made a jailhouseconfession.
Police have said Barentinecould be charged later if new

(29:58):
evidence points to him.
So for a while there was no newevidence, no new information on
thecase.
In 2015, police got a potentialnew tip from a true crime blog
post that told the story ofsomeone who claimed to know who
killed JB and Tracy.
The whistleblower was a womannamed Renee Crum, in Ozark

(30:22):
residence, who in a blog post,was misidentified as a police
officer.
Renee Crum tells the story thatshe heard a confession from a
former police officer at a partywho confessed to being the
murderer of the two girls.
Renee, who was captured in aninterview by a police body
camera, admitted that she was ata party with a former police

(30:45):
officer who she reported wasquote as drunk as Cooter Brown
end and quote when he made thepurported confession, she claims
he told her he screwed up andhe was afraid he was going to
quote lose his baby, meaning.
She said that the formerofficer had been having a sexual
relationship with JB and wasmotivated by jealousy and fear

(31:08):
that she would leave him.
She reported that otherofficers assured him that they
would have his back and assisthim in covering up the murder
and if Renee ever came forward,that he had told her he would
quote fucking kill her.
She went on to say that if shewere called to testify about the
situation on the stand, shewould perjure herself because,

(31:30):
when it came down to the life ofthe stand, she would perjure
herself because, when it camedown to the life of the accused
who we will get into shortly andthe life of herself and the
safety of her family, she wouldchoose the safety of her family.
She said she had come forwardto the blogger because she had
had a guilty conscience and itwas the anniversary of the
girl's death and she was seeingposts about them all over her

(31:52):
Facebook.
Does she regret it, sayinganything?
Because she feared for thesafety of herself and her family
, the police officers in the2020 episode really brushed off
her report.
However, I think that herbehavior somewhat speaks to her
credibility and I guess we'llget into that again more later.

(32:15):
In what year is this?
2016, 2017?
I'm notsure.
The police have a geneticbreakthrough because of new
technology a mitochondrial DNAtesting Police Chief Marlowe
Walker, who was the chief ofpolice of Ozark at the time

(32:42):
decided to try it out afterseeing the success of its
employment in the Golden StateKiller case.
According to Walker, he said tohimself quote this information
would be great, and so thefollowing week I started making
phone calls.
So Walker sent the DNApreserved in the teen's case
file from 1999 to a lab inVirginia with the hopes of

(33:05):
finding names that would link toa specific donor.
Five months later, in 2019,walker received results and
noticed a familiar name on alist of possible matches.
I was looking at the list againwhen I saw the name McCraney.
Walker recalled that stood outbecause I knew of a McCraney in

(33:27):
high school.
In the hopes of getting closerto an exact DNA match, walker
then contacted his formerclassmate, collie McCraney, and
asked if he would volunteer togive a DNA sample.
Collie McCraney agreed to helpwith the investigation and
provided a DNA sample to theOzark Police Department.

(33:49):
Walker was blown away by thenews he later learned from the
lab with the results thatconfirmed that Colin McCraney's
DNA was a 100% match to thetraces of DNA found on
Beasley.
On March 15, 2019, policearrested Collie McCraney and

(34:13):
charged him with four counts ofcapital murder, as well as
first-degree rape.
Walker said that Collie was nota suspect in 1999 and had not
been on the investigators' radar.
In an interrogation videoobtained by ABC News, colleen

(34:38):
McCraney denied ever knowing thegirls were having anything to
do with their murder.
Investigators said they neverfound a murder weapon and they
haven't found any witnesses whosaw Colleen McCraney with the
girls that night.
While the announcement of hisarrest brought some closure to
the local community, some stillhave their doubts about Colin
McCraney's involvement in theteam's death.
Mccraney's defense attorneyclaimed that the DNA evidence

(35:05):
found in the form of semen onlyproves that McCraney and Beasley
had a sexual encounter In 2023,mccraney was tried for capital
murder, with the possibility ofreceiving the death
penalty.
During the trial, colleyMcCraney took the stand and
claimed he met Beasley at themall in 1999, a few months
before the teens were foundmurdered.

(35:25):
Colley testified that Beasleytold him her name was Jennifer
and that he gave her his phonenumber.
He said they made plans to meetthat night in Ozark and,
according to his testimony, thetwo had consensual sex in the
back of his truck Not like hewas a truck driver, so it wasn't

(35:46):
like a regular truck.
He had a rig with a bed, afterwhich he returned home truck.
He had a rig with a bed, afterwhich he returned home.
Mccraney told ABC News that hedid not make the connection
between the girl he met in 1999with JB Beasley, until after he
wasarrested.
In April 26, 2023, a jury foundColleen McCraney guilty of

(36:10):
capital murder and rape, and hewas later sentenced to life in
prison.
The sentencing finally broughtsome closure needed for the
families of Beasley and Hollett,who awaited more than two
decades for justice.
Quote I was in shock.
Roberts said We'd waited 24years for this and finally

(36:32):
someone is going to be heldaccountable.
Cheryl Bergen, who describedher daughter, jb Beasley, as a
beautiful gift in an interviewwith 2020, remembered her
emotional reaction to theverdict.
When they read Guilty, I fellforward and tears streamed down
my face, bergensaid.
Abc News' Deborah Roberts spokewith Colleen McCraney in an

(36:59):
exclusive phone interview fromhis Alabama prison, which was in
the episode during which hemaintained his innocence.
They can call me a cheat, theycan call me a dog, they can call
me a lot of things at the time,but they can't call me a killer
, mccraney said in the phoneinterview.
Colleen McCraney's defenseattorneys have filed a motion
with Alabama's Court of CriminalAppeals, hoping to secure a new

(37:22):
trial.
The ruling is expected laterthis year.
Some of the issues is that hewas convicted solely on the
basis of the DNA found andthere's some issues with that.
So on this stand they did callthat Tracy Combe to the stand,

(37:49):
who had previously said that itwas a cop and had said had
confessed to her uh to havingdone it.
However, she said on the standthat she had previously lied.
However, in the previousinterview that she had done
where she was secretlyvideotaped by the police camera,

(38:11):
where she was secretlyvideotaped by the police camera,
she told them that she wasgoing to lie on the stand.
So I think that calls theentire thing into question and
to me that kind of speaks tomaybe the potential credibility
of her story, because if youthought that cops were going to

(38:33):
kill you, then I think you wouldact that way.
It doesn't prove anything butit's suspicious.
And her testimony she says I'mnot right in the head, I have a
brain injury which isn'tsomething there like evidence of
.
She just said that I don'tremember.

(38:56):
So that seemed reallysuspicious to
me.
Okay, here's another thing, thetestimony of former paper boy,
dan Driver, which is verycompelling.
So Dan Driver was the paper boyat the time of the murders and
he claims that he saw the Mazda929 for the first time around 2
15 am on Sunday, august 1st,parked on the side of James

(39:20):
Street around 100 feet away fromHerring Avenue, with what he
believed.
So he claims he saw it threetimes.
I took this part from anarticle, but in the 2020 episode
they said he saw it three times, that he saw it the first time
on James Street at 1 am.
He passed it, the lights wereflashing and it was by itself.

(39:43):
Then he saw it again around2.15 am and he was with his
father at that time and I waslike why didn't they interview
the father?
Maybe the father passed, butthere was a lot of there's a lot
of gaps, lots of questions thatI couldn't find answers for and
at that time he saw with whathe believed was a police vehicle
and then he saw it a third time.

(40:06):
So driver continued histestimony and said that later,
at 2.45 am, he saw a oh okay, sono.
It says he saw it parked on theside of James Street I guess
this is the time of the flashersWith what he believed was an
unmarked police car behind it.

(40:27):
Driver continued his testimonyand said that at about 2.45 am
he saw it with a marked policecar in front of the Mazda 929,
which had its right passengerside door open, and the unmarked
car was gone Nearly seven hoursbefore.
Former Ozark police officerBobby Blankenship, who testified

(40:47):
on Thursday, says he discoveredthe car at 9 am Sunday morning.
Then driver claimed that later,at 7 am, he went back that area
and that is when he saw theMazda 929 on the side of Herring
Avenue, which is the spot thatBlankenship later says he found
it.
And Driver says that later,when he read about the murders

(41:13):
in the newspaper, he reported tothe police and met with an
Ozark police investigator in theparking lot of an attorney's
office and gave a statementabout what he saw.
But his statement was neverfiled and it was lost.
Driver says he gave the exactstatement 20 years later, after

(41:37):
McCraney'sarrest.
During cross-examination,marshall went back over his
lifetime with Driver but alsotouched on what he called a
horrific accident involvingDriver that occurred before
mccraney's arrest.

(41:57):
According to marshall, driverwas hit by an excavator and fell
20 feet, hitting his head on arock and putting him in a coma
for a time and causingshort-term memory loss, and in
the 2020 documentary they arevery dismissive about and they
they were like he's got braindamage.
Okay, but he even clearlystates he has short-term memory
loss and that's usually howbrain damage works.

(42:18):
It impacts your ability to formnew memories, but doesn't
impact your long-term memorylike your memory that you
already have, and so there's noreason that he shouldn't recall
events that happened 24 yearsago, and so I thought that that
was a shitty prosecution move todiscredit his

(42:42):
testimony.
There were a lot of proceduralproblems when they arrested
McCraney.
In the interrogation video in2020, mccraney was shown
repeatedly asking for a lawyer,and the interrogation officer
interrogating officer pretendedto not know what he meant,
saying stuff like you can get alawyer if you want, but then

(43:04):
proceeding with theinterrogation for some time I'm
not clear how long because ofthe way the video was cut.
They also made McCraney sleepon the floor of the
interrogation room, which isagainst procedure and possibly
illegal.
But when the 2020 lady Deborahwhat is her last name?
Roberts Roberts asked the copabout it His name was Lieutenant

(43:29):
Michael Bryan he was verydismissive.
He was like.
She was like well, is that thenormal police procedure.
He was like well, it's notnormal to murder teen girls and
stuff them into the trunk of acar, like that's.
That's not how that works.
Like you have to followprocedure, no matter what.
And he was repeatedly likeasking for a lawyer and like the

(43:54):
cop just kept going and likeshowing him like pictures of
like the scene and and um andcontinuing to investigate him
and that's the end of my writtennotes.
But then I also had because Iran out of time to write notes
but then I also had verbalthoughts, comments about issues

(44:16):
that I had, and I don't thinkthat I'm not saying that
McCraney is innocent.
I don't think that thatnecessarily, none of that
necessarily exonerates him.
But I feel like just the dnaevidence alone I'm not sure if
that, I don't feel like that isenough to necessarily say that

(44:39):
he did the murder, because firstof all, they charged him with a
rape but the autopsy revealedthat there wasn't rape.
There was, they just foundsemen on the clothes, so that's
not evidence of rape.
That could could mean any numberof things, right.
It could mean, you know, likethey said, a consensual sexual
encounter.
It could mean that, you know,like other stuff you know.

(45:04):
But they were saying that heput her down in the mud, pulled
her pants down and raped her,and there wasn't.
The autopsy would have shownthat right.
And it didn't, because theywere saying there's mud on the
inside of her pants, well,there's mud all over her, and so

(45:25):
she could have gotten mud onher in another way.
But another thing that Well, hecould have tried to rape her
and he wasn't able to, or that,that that too, that too.
But the other thing about themud that bothered me, right,
that didn't make sense to where,like, if he got down in the mud
, was trying to rape her,whatever, like, like, the girls

(45:48):
were covered in mud, especiallyJB.
Like if he had got down in themud, right, tried to rape her or
something, he would have hadmud on him too.
The inside of the car wasspotless.
There was no mud, there was nonothing.
It was completely fucking clean.
So he could not have gottendown in the mud, then placed

(46:08):
them in the trunk or made themget in the trunk and then got in
the car and drove them tosomewhere else.
Like he would have had mud.
There would have been mud onother parts of the car.
The only part of the car wherethere was mud on was the back of
the trunk, where the girls hadclimbed in because they were
muddy, and so that didn't fitwith the story.

Speaker 1 (46:29):
And he Wait.
Who's the he we're talkingabout?

Speaker 2 (46:35):
I'm confused, mccraney mccraney, that's the
guy who is.
Who is the suspect?
Like they said, nobody, nobodysaw him.
Nobody saw him at the gasstation.
He wasn't on the surveillancefootage.
He did say he said he went tothe gas station.
He said he went there twice.
What he said is that he, hewent there.
So he said that he met her atthe mall, jb, that she

(46:55):
introduced herself to Jennifer.
He gave her his phone numberbecause he was sleeping around
with a bunch of chicks and so hesaid he gave her his number and
they had agreed to hook up.
He said he met them at the gasstation, the two girls.
He got in their car.
They drove to another gasstation, I guess like a trucker

(47:19):
station, where he had his rig.
Then him and JB got into therig, did some kind of sexual
encounter, then they left orwhatever.
He gave them directions homeand they left and then he needed
a jump.
So then he called his wife andthey went back to the gas

(47:44):
station to jump his truck.
I'm not sure if he still meanthis rig, I'm assuming like what
other vehicle, like, but Iwasn't clear on that and I
couldn't find information aboutthat, but I'm assuming it is
that because because that'swhere you were saying that he
did the chicken, the chick, jb,the victim, and the wife

(48:11):
corroborates the jumping story.
She says that she went andjumped, helped him jump the
thing, which I don't know.
If that necessarily makes himlook more credible, so I don't
know why they wouldn't make upthat story.
If that's supposed to make himlook more credible it doesn't

(48:32):
necessarily.
But either way, there's nothingon the surveillance video to
catch him like there's, likethere's nobody.
There's no, there's noeyewitness account of him being
there.
There's no surveillance videoof him being there.
Nobody saw him.
Nobody saw him with the girls.

Speaker 1 (48:54):
Um, but as far as nobody seeing him.
Is this at the time when theyasked, or was it 20 years later?

Speaker 2 (49:02):
no at the time.
I mean, what do you mean?
20 years later, they they'renot alive 20 years later not the
girls.
You were talking about the guyon surveillance yeah, like he,
like I'm saying they didn't thatnight.
He said he was at the gas, thatgas station.
Yes, two times.

Speaker 1 (49:20):
He was not, I know, but you said no that you said
there were no eyewitnesses tohim being there.
Yeah, but the police wouldn'teven know to ask about them
until years later, so I don'tknow that I would remember
anybody being there 20 yearsthere wasn't, even, there wasn't
, even.

Speaker 2 (49:38):
They didn't even talk about like interviewing, like
the clerk, or they didn't I'msure they did sure, but they
didn't talk about it well, which?

Speaker 1 (49:47):
yeah, they might not.
I mean, you can't, you can't doa blow-by-blow like that.

Speaker 2 (49:51):
Yeah, but if he was there like any, like lone man,
right?
I would report as suspicious ifit's in conjunction with a
missing girl.
You would, anybody would, notnecessarily.
I would think so.
They report like that thattruck and nobody even got out of

(50:15):
it, right I?

Speaker 1 (50:16):
mean it also depends on how they question right Like,
sure you can say did you see X,y and Z here?
Right Like, because it soundslike by the time they got there
they already had maybe a suspector or thought they did right no

(50:36):
, they didn't have a suspectwhen they got, when they were
interviewing the clerks no, theydidn't have a suspect by then.

Speaker 2 (50:45):
They didn't they're they're the other two dudes that
they investigated yeah, theyinvestigated though they those
dudes but they would haveinterviewed the clerks right
away, because that was the lastthey were seen from, because
they had not only the phone callright but they had testimony

(51:08):
from the mother and daughterthat had given them directions
that they had been there.
So that was like the firstthing they investigated.

Speaker 1 (51:22):
Well, I'm not saying they didn't investigate it
before.
I'm just saying question-wise,you know, once they had one,
they could say did you see thisperson here?
Whatever, you know, once theyhad one they could say did you
see this person here?
Whatever, right, like, I mean,there's any number of ways they
could ask questions where aperson wouldn't necessarily say,
hey, there is a suspiciousperson, yeah, you know, and I
think it might also I hate tosay this, but it might also

(51:42):
depend on the gender of theclerks like maybe a woman would
point out a lone man, but a manmight not necessarily think
anything of it that that'spossible, especially because he
I'm confused he drove a big rig,but he wasn't saying he drove
it that night.

Speaker 2 (51:59):
No, he didn't drive it up to that gas station, like
he had it at a different gasstation like a big rig, like a
trucker stop, and then he metthem.
I'm not clear on how he got tothe gas station, but he said he
met them at the gas station.
They gave him a ride to theother truck stop and he at some

(52:23):
point he had some kind of trucktrouble and he needed his wife
to jump his truck or help himjump his truck.

(52:45):
Is is his story so, which thewife corroborated, the helping
to jump his truck part.
Yeah, although that doesn'tmean anything.
Yeah, sure I agree with that.
Yeah, I agree with that.

Speaker 1 (53:03):
Well, I mean, he admits to being at the gas
station, so I guess it doesn'treally matter if anybody saw him
there or not.

Speaker 2 (53:08):
Yeah, yeah, but I'm there or not?
Yeah, yeah, but I'm like, whywould you?
Why would you admit that ifthere is no proof?
If there's no proof, right thatthat you were there, why would
you admit that if that?

Speaker 1 (53:22):
well, maybe he didn't know that they didn't have
proof.

Speaker 2 (53:26):
They don't have to tell you what proof they have
and other things that like whydid he so readily submit to a
dna sample?
Why did he so readily submit toa DNA sample?
Like why did he so readilysubmit to a DNA sample?
They always do that, some doand some don't.
They do a lot.
And like when in the thing inthe interview when they called

(53:46):
him in, he didn't seem to knowwhy he was there.
He seemed confused.

Speaker 1 (53:52):
They always do, though, you know.
I mean, it's rare that they'relike yeah, I know why I'm here,
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (53:59):
But do you think that the DNA of his semen, but with
no evidence of rape in theautopsy, is that alone?
Do you think that's enough fora?

Speaker 1 (54:12):
murder conviction.

Speaker 2 (54:14):
I couldn't find any information like no information
about tire tracks footprints.
Did they test the dirt that wason her pants?
Did they test any of thatinformation?
What about the handprint theymight have and it's just not in
2020?
Like any of that information?
Like, what about the handprint?

Speaker 1 (54:33):
like they might have, and it's just not in 2020, none
of that stuff or in otherplaces.

Speaker 2 (54:38):
They they said they convicted him on was the dna,
and that's what the defenselawyer said as well, that that
was the only thing theyconvicted him on was the dna,
and it's mitochondrial DNA atthat.

Speaker 1 (54:52):
When you go into a courtroom, if there's DNA,
they're not just like DNA done,it's not just DNA evidence.
I don't know, maybe the jurorsreally felt that those other
things were not important.
I don't know.
I don't know.
But I'm not saying.
What I'm just saying is wecan't 100% say he was convicted

(55:14):
alone on the DNA, unless thejurors say that Arrested and
charged 100% the only directevidence.

Speaker 2 (55:23):
100 occurred to me, like it occurred to me that like
he could have killed her, likewith the aid of his wife, like
he could have killed her withthe aid of that chief of police

(55:46):
who was his buddy.

Speaker 1 (55:47):
I agree with you.
I'm not disagreeing with you atall, rachel.
I'm just saying you can't sayconvicted based on that, unless
the jurors say that honoratehimself, but only seem to make
himself look bad, which I thinkthat probably his defense

(56:18):
attorneys probably shouldn'thave let him testify but I'm I'm
certain.
Maybe the defense attorney toldhim not to but maybe.

Speaker 2 (56:25):
But maybe they did do right because apparently alab
like one of the highest rates ofdeath penalty and he did get
life.
So maybe there was a token ofuncertainty enough Like they
tried him in a courthouse thathas a Confederate statue outside

(56:48):
.
Look, I mean, like I get why heis a suspect.
You know, like I agree heshould be a suspect.
I just don't feel like us,since there the autopsy showed
that there wasn't a sign of rate.
It didn't.
That story didn't match up withwhat the police were saying

(57:08):
happened we.

Speaker 1 (57:09):
We should also point out the fact that, uh, the
prosecutor gets to decidewhether or not charges are
actually brought against theperson.
Yeah, that there's enoughevidence to actually charge them
yeah so the prosecutor clearlythought that there was enough
throughout the whole episode.

Speaker 2 (57:27):
They were like dna is key, dna is key like that other
, that other guy, the michiganguy.
Yeah, they were like, oh, thedna doesn't match, so he can't.
Yeah, like that was like theirwhole you know yeah pivot point
and like it seemed like theycouldn't possibly envision that

(57:49):
she could have maybe had aconsensual sexual encounter.
Yeah, I mean, it's definitelypossible she was a 17-year-old,
like the guy at the time, was 25, which is icky, but those
things happened.

Speaker 1 (58:04):
Right yeah.
Yeah, no, I agree, I agree.
I mean suspect, yes, and I'mnot sure he should have been
convicted, just like you said.

Speaker 2 (58:15):
Based on that, I don't argue that at all of the
paper boy and the the tracycombs individual was so

(58:37):
dismissed as being laughablethat the police might be
involved.
That to me.

Speaker 1 (58:45):
Red flags, red flags see, I, I remember this episode
and her I would not believe, not, not because I don't believe a
cop could do it, absolutely acop could do it.
You know, I know that and Ibelieve that.
But she herself, the second sheopened her mouth, I was like
she's not believable, there's noway.

Speaker 2 (59:03):
Well, I don't know if I feel like she's a credible
person, but like why would shebe so adamant about not
testifying and why, like shedidn't want to be on camera,
they secretly filmed her?
Because she didn't want to beon camera, Like she didn't want
her name out there.

Speaker 1 (59:21):
She didn't want I mean she may not want to,
because she originally told thatto a blogger.
Right the story to a blogger.
She may have made up that storyfor whatever reason, and now
it's serious and she doesn'twant her face recorded.
She doesn't want to be on.
You know, like she, she just,for whatever reason, decided to

(59:41):
tell that story and now it justbecame too real.

Speaker 2 (59:44):
I also thought it was interesting that the person
that she like, the, the, thegirl that she said was dating
the officer, was the same girl.
That was the girl that the dudesaid that he slept with.
Was the girl with the semen andlike if those stories were true

(01:00:07):
, like, maybe, like she liked todate older men.
Yeah, that's possible, I'm notsaying that that's true, like
allegedly yeah, like nobody suedme or whatever, but like the
mom was like oh, she would never, or whatever, and like parents
always say that yeah, exactlylike yeah, no, I and and again,

(01:00:28):
I'm not girls who would have.

Speaker 1 (01:00:29):
I'm I'm not saying a cop couldn't have done it.
I'm not saying no.

Speaker 2 (01:00:33):
And.
I just but also also the notnot just her testimony alone,
though.

Speaker 1 (01:00:40):
The paper boy.

Speaker 2 (01:00:40):
Yeah, I thought his testimony was far more
compelling, yeah, and I was likeI want to hear more about him,
yeah, and like what happened?
Like why wasn't his reportfiled, yeah, and.
And now they're just like, oh,what happened?
Like why wasn't his reportfiled, yeah, and now they're
just like, oh, he's braindamaged.
And I was like isn't itconvenient that all of the
people who are testifying thissame story have brain damage,

(01:01:04):
right?
Anyway, I don't know.
So anyway, I'm not saying againlike that, that dude is
innocent.

Speaker 1 (01:01:12):
I think that there is the evidence presented such as
it was in 2020.
And what can be found onlineindicates that there may not be
enough evidence to actuallyconvicted him.

Speaker 2 (01:01:25):
Exactly.
That's how I feel about it.

Speaker 1 (01:01:28):
Yeah, that is the problem with true crime shows.
I mean they kind of pick andchoose and you know they have to
follow a story and that's basedon what they think their
audience likes and all of thatstuff.
And sometimes that stuff isn'tavailable or you know they've
been denied the request to getall of the information from the
trial or whatever from the trialor whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:01:54):
Yeah, that's of course.
I always want to know more andmore.
Yeah, more, like you know, andit's like how can I, how can I
make an informed decision if I,if all this information is
withheld for me, right?
Yeah, yeah, you know, and I get, that some of this information
is not whatever is supposed tobe available.
But you know, I'm going to drawmy own conclusions.

Speaker 1 (01:02:16):
Well, yeah, because I think about that.
Like what was I reading ormaybe watching the other day, I
don't remember, but oh, the book, our book, good segue.
But we'll talk about that in asecond.
He mentioned it, but alsoAphrodite Jones at CrimeCon
mentioned it.
He didn't talk about thestaircase because I don't think

(01:02:37):
it was out probably at the time,but Aphrodite Jones was talking
about the staircase and how,that documentary.
Conveniently, he had all of theevidence that was presented at
trial that led to the convictionof Michael Peterson, evidence
that was presented at trial thatled to the conviction of
Michael Peterson.
But he left out most of itbecause he had a or the

(01:03:00):
documentarian had a story thathe wanted to you know.
But also that one that he wastalking about that really sort
of kicked off Netflix's truecrime one.
What was that called?

(01:03:21):
Um, not serial something?
The perspective of a serialkiller?
No, no, no, um it.
I think it starts with an s, Idon't remember but it's.
It was a big one and it led tolike a re-examination of the
evidence or whatever.
But it turns out that they leftout important information but
made everybody think that thisman was wrongfully convicted,
but conveniently left outinformation.
And I'm not saying 2020 didthat here or whatever.

(01:03:45):
I'm just saying you have to bemindful of the fact that people
have an agenda and, as anaudience and a consumer of these
, we dictate what they want.

Speaker 2 (01:03:56):
The thing is, I think that 2021, I need to believe
that the guy was was guilty,because they emphasize the part.
They emphasize the part aboutJB being raped and it wasn't
until I looked at outsidesources that I learned that the
initial autopsy reports found norape.
And it wasn't until later, likethey found this semen on the

(01:04:19):
clothes and then later thepolice argue that she was raped,
despite the autopsy resultsyeah so well I don't hold on
yeah, no, I don't.

Speaker 1 (01:04:29):
I like I said, I don't deny that.

Speaker 2 (01:04:31):
Not that there's not other ways to sexually assault,
you know, yeah, Besides rape.
But I was like this is craftinglike a narrative that you know.

Speaker 1 (01:04:45):
Well, they are a business.

Speaker 2 (01:04:48):
Isn't everything.

Speaker 1 (01:04:49):
Exactly Capitalism.
That's the thing.
We all have to be mindful ofwhat we consume and realize that
it's all created by humanbeings, and all human beings,
whether they want to believe itor not, have an agenda and are
biased.
Okay, so, segueing into ourtrue crime book, the witch of

(01:05:11):
New York, you hand me my copy,thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:05:15):
What'd you think?
Well, I think I thought it wasreally interesting.
I thought that, yeah, I reallyliked how they were talking
about how the tabloids reallyfucked around with the trial.
They were assholes back in theday, yeah yeah, I mean, it did

(01:05:36):
kind of seem like she did it,like they, like they pointed out
, yeah, that she probably did itor was involved, yeah, um, but
yeah, the way that theyportrayed her and the way that
they really manipulated publicopinion was so fucked up yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:05:56):
There weren't a lot of ethics.
Well, even now, a lot of theethics are self-imposed.

Speaker 2 (01:06:05):
It bothered me so much that the only choices were
exoneration or the death penalty.
I was like if, if you just hada middle ground, yeah, then this
jury wouldn't be, so, you know,hung yeah, I mean also they.

Speaker 1 (01:06:21):
They never should have tried her in the first
place in anywhere near where.
Yeah, it was done yeah, I meanthat was yeah, that that is
common sense.
But at the there wasn't thatlaw which fascinated me.
I didn't realize that it wasthis case that made that law
possible.

Speaker 2 (01:06:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:06:41):
Yeah, that was interesting to me.
I have little tabbies of thehistorical facts I didn't know
about.

Speaker 2 (01:06:49):
I was amused and frustrated by their stories of
interviewing so many fuckingjurors.

Speaker 1 (01:06:57):
Right, I know.

Speaker 2 (01:06:59):
But I also was amused by the honesty of all the
jurors.
They were like oh yeah, I'm notimpartial, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:07:07):
I know that's admirable, because I don't think
that that happens nowadays.

Speaker 2 (01:07:11):
No.

Speaker 1 (01:07:11):
At all, and I don't know that anybody could, unless
you are a hermit in the woodsand you haven't seen
civilization in 20 years.
I don't think you couldpossibly not know something
about a case I thought aboutthat too.

Speaker 2 (01:07:27):
I was like nowhere.
Yeah, the jungles of SouthAmerica.
Yeah, yeah, the jungles ofSouth America, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:07:33):
And I was thinking how hard it must have been on
jurors for the like the CaseyAnthony trial.

Speaker 2 (01:07:39):
Even, no, actually even I saw a story about how,
like you know, these like remotecivilization, yeah, in the
rainforest of South America nowhave internet.

Speaker 1 (01:07:50):
Yeah, yeah, so I know .
Nowhere, yeah, nowhere, yeah,jurors fascinate me.
So there was this show was iton Hulu or Netflix or I don't
know, but they followed.
They interviewed jurors of somebig crimes, right, and why they
convicted or didn't convict,like what was going through

(01:08:11):
their mind, and one of theepisodes was on the OJ Simpson
trial.

Speaker 2 (01:08:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:08:15):
And I will never forget how one of the jurors
basically said that they madehim not guilty because they just
wanted to fucking go home.
Yeah right, I don't know ifthat's true or not and I don't
remember exactly how we wordedit.
He might have just beensarcastic, but I remember him

(01:08:35):
saying that and I was like Ithought that was interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:08:39):
I mean, yeah, I mean jury fatigue, yeah, it's a real
thing.
I can totally see it.
I gave props to that first guyfor not giving up.

Speaker 1 (01:08:48):
I did too yeah, well, I liked it.
Giving up I did too yeah, well,I liked it.
But I was also a littledisappointed because I I feel
like I was promised that I wouldget more on poe and whitman
right, and those were only short, little yeah, pieces, name
dropping all the yeah, the coolancient dudes yeah um, also, for

(01:09:09):
some reason, I thought therewould actually be some witches
involved, but he only did itlike a little chapter on the
Salem witch hunts.

Speaker 2 (01:09:15):
Just a little blurb.

Speaker 1 (01:09:17):
Yeah, and my other question, so I wrote down so
half of these thingies, thepurple ones, are facts about the
case, because I wanted to know,I want to see, by the end of
the book and all the facts andwhatever, do I think she did it
or not?
Yeah, so my question for you isdo you think?

Speaker 2 (01:09:36):
Well, you're much more organized than I am.

Speaker 1 (01:09:39):
Do you think Polly did it or not?

Speaker 2 (01:09:40):
I do think that she did it, although the thing that
got me was about, like they said, the motive, about how she knew
about the $1,000.

Speaker 1 (01:09:56):
Yeah, it's the motive that bothers me.
Yeah, because I don't know whather motive would have been.
I mean, even if they were indire straits, the parents would
have given it Again.
She knew where the $1,000 were,which would be less bad, right,
uh, to take that than to takethe jewelry, like it would be so

(01:10:17):
much easier yeah, but it, but Icouldn't.

Speaker 2 (01:10:22):
What I couldn't deny was was about how like nobody
could fucking find her.
Yeah, on christmas night yeahsee my thing.

Speaker 1 (01:10:33):
I'm sorry for interrupting you, but I just
want to.
I just remembered and I didn'twrite it down, so I want to say
it.
That is suspicious, but whenthey started talking about
abortives and things like thatand how she would take them to
places, yeah, my initial thoughtand I still think it's a
possibility is one she waseither trying to do her own late

(01:10:54):
stage abortion, yeah, or shewas taking abortion abortives to
other women women and didn'twant to get herself or those
women in trouble.
Yeah, but I'm, because I mean,I think I'm not 100, but I I
assume, since abortion wasillegal, that probably would
have gotten her in just as muchyes, yeah, it wouldn't yeah

(01:11:16):
that's true, because I was likethat.

Speaker 2 (01:11:18):
That was what I thought about the abortion thing
.
But then I was like I was likethey already think that she's
doing abortion, so why doesn'tshe just say it well, thinking
it, and then her actuallyadmitting it are probably two
different things and then likewho else would have pawned all
those things?

Speaker 1 (01:11:37):
True, yeah, so I mean , I think she did it too.
I just have questions.

Speaker 2 (01:11:44):
Yeah, I have questions too.
I have lots of questions.

Speaker 1 (01:11:48):
Although I also wonder if maybe the mom did it
Right, because she, according toeyewitness accounts, she's the
one who was like moving shitaround and stuff and hiding
things Right.

Speaker 2 (01:12:01):
Well, part of me, it occurred to me.
I was like what if they wereall in on?

Speaker 1 (01:12:05):
it yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:12:06):
Like what if they like fucking hated like the
sister-in-law and they were likelet's get rid of her?
Yeah, because they like alllike backed her up.
They were all like on our side,yeah, providing accounts and
shit like that?

Speaker 1 (01:12:20):
what if?

Speaker 2 (01:12:20):
it was like one big let's kill this bitch right, or
I was also.

Speaker 1 (01:12:26):
I was also thinking what if george hired somebody to
kill her, or or that you knowRight, because he didn't come
out for or against his sister.

Speaker 2 (01:12:36):
Yep, that's, yeah, that's possible.
Yeah, maybe he was like let'skill this bitch.

Speaker 1 (01:12:41):
Yeah, because I mean he couldn't do it, but Right.
But I also think that Judge wasright that it you know, if the
motive was money, he had beencarrying around a shit ton of
money.
I mean $1,000 is not that muchtoday, but back then that was a
lot of money.
That's like life-changing moneyand she's kind of like flashing

(01:13:02):
this cash around?

Speaker 2 (01:13:04):
Yeah, yeah, I also have questions about, like the,
whatever this mysterious man andwoman, right, but it obviously
wasn't the George dude, no,because the son provided an
alibi for him, right?
And I was also like, what areyou doing?
Like back your mom up, right?

Speaker 1 (01:13:25):
He was a kid though, I know.
Poor dude.
What else was I thinking?
There was something else I wasthinking.
Oh, and I was also intrigued byby was it the second trial
where or maybe it was still thefirst trial where they brought
in other experts talking aboutlike that it's entirely possible
that the head wounds were doneafter the fact?
Right, the initial guy said itwas before that somebody could

(01:13:50):
have like stepped on.
Yeah, because I mean back thenanybody and their mother was
allowed to go right in there.
I mean they talked about that.
The mother went in while thecops were there.

Speaker 2 (01:14:00):
I mean yeah, because I that was another thing I was
like I don't think that shewould have killed the little kid
, like no, maybe like, maybelike accidentally, yeah, like.
But yeah, I don't think, Idon't know.
I have a hard time envisioningthat she would have been so
cold-blooded to have killed,like a kid that she watched and,

(01:14:21):
like, yeah, gave birth to withher own like you know, like
caught with her own hands yeahlike maybe she was, but maybe
she didn't seem like it, fromthe accounts of her behavior and
stuff like that.

Speaker 1 (01:14:33):
Yeah, it's interesting he brought up Lizzie
Borden at the end.

Speaker 2 (01:14:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:14:38):
Lizzie Borden.
I used to think might have beeninnocent, but then I read the
trial of Lizzie Borden and now Ithink she absolutely did it,
because they actually go intoher character.
Oh yeah, Kind of what ahorrible person she was, yeah,
and so that wasn't like that.
In this case, she didn't appearto be an awful disgusting human

(01:15:02):
being, except by societal norms, but not in personality yeah,
you're talking about how, likethey brought up like the baby
and she was like crying andstuff.

Speaker 2 (01:15:12):
And yeah, I'm like if she was so cold-blooded about
the babies, then like why isthis tearing her up?

Speaker 1 (01:15:19):
Right.
Also, the knot fascinated mebecause it was a sailor's knot.
Yeah, Now she did do the oysterstuff, so maybe she does know
how to do the oyster knot, butthat would to me indicate that
it would be a sailor, right?
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:15:35):
yeah, is that the kind of thing?
Is that the kind of thing thatthey taught?

Speaker 1 (01:15:38):
women?
Well, I don't know, but they.
They said at the beginning thatshe used to do the oyster the
help out and and they said shewas very independent.

Speaker 2 (01:15:47):
Yeah, so she might know that.

Speaker 1 (01:15:48):
Yeah, so I mean that could have been her.
But I was also like, why, if itwas a sailor's knot, why
wouldn't they have thought abouta fisher person or a sailor?

Speaker 2 (01:15:58):
Yeah, I like the story about the pie and the gin.

Speaker 1 (01:16:03):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, gin at 7am or whatever it was.
Yeah, go you.

Speaker 2 (01:16:11):
Way to go, polly, yeah, maybe not.
Maybe she didn't do it, butyeah, somebody in her family
somebody definitely did it and Ithink, if, yeah, if it wasn't
somebody else in her family, Ithink that they definitely
thought that she did it and yeah, like let's cover for her.

Speaker 1 (01:16:29):
Yeah, I loved the end at the third trial when she's
found out guilty and she waslike can we sue barnum now?
Right, like that's probably notthe time to say that.
Yeah, and also she got aretraction the only retraction
from that horrible tabloid guy.
Yeah, yeah, that was fun.

(01:16:49):
Yeah, she does.
She seems like a I don't know.
She could definitely have doneit, but at the same time, I have
questions.
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:16:58):
I mean, it's so hard when it's so so long ago and
there is so little is knownRight, and there probably wasn't
that much of it.

Speaker 1 (01:17:05):
It didn't seem like there was that much evidence to
begin with and you're seeing somuch of it through the lens of
society from then which is hardto parse through sometimes.

Speaker 2 (01:17:16):
I thought that that one chick's testimony about the
scream was bullshit.

Speaker 1 (01:17:21):
Yeah, yeah, alright, so we liked it.

Speaker 2 (01:17:25):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (01:17:26):
Yeah, now we have to pick another one.
I know, I know, didn't we haveone?
We were gonna do.

Speaker 2 (01:17:32):
Oh, probably.
Maybe you have it tucked awayin a list somewhere.

Speaker 1 (01:17:38):
Maybe Should we do a classic, a classic, a classic
true crime.
Sure, like we could do a shortone like In.
Cold Blood, or we could do alonger one like Helter Skelter,
okay, or I don't know.
What do you want to do?
I have no idea.
You have no idea?

(01:18:00):
Okay, let me Google.
Oh, I did want to read this.
It's not old, it's new.
Actually.
Long Haul, long Haul Huntingthe Highway Serial Killers.
By Frank Figliuzzi Ooh, fromthe FBI's former assistant
director, a shocking journey tothe dark side of America's
highways revealing the FBIhighway serial killings

(01:18:23):
initiatives, hunt for the longhaul truckers behind an
astonishing 850 murders andcounting.

Speaker 2 (01:18:30):
That could be good, or do we want?

Speaker 1 (01:18:32):
to do one of the ones I bought from crime con oh, we
could do that, because wealready have those yeah okay,
hand me that one.
There's some, yeah, there'sthat one.
And then the john walsh one.
Do I have that one?
Yes, I got you one.

Speaker 2 (01:18:46):
Okay, sure, little crazy children, a true crime
tragedy we could do that one andthen do the Figliosa one after
that.

Speaker 1 (01:18:55):
Okay that sounds good , All right, so we're going to
scrap the Figliosi one and we'regoing to do Little Crazy
Children.
A True Crime Tragedy by JamesRenner Sounds good, Okay.
So I would ask what we'rereading and watching.
But all I did was read thisbook, Right?

Speaker 2 (01:19:17):
Let's see.
Did I read anything besidesthat?
well, the really crappy sharkbook yeah, yeah, I've been
reading a a shitty shark bookcalled by Michael R Cole.
Do not recommend, yeah and yeah.
So I read Witch of New York andI read Black Sheep, which did I

(01:19:43):
talk about that last time?
I think so, yeah, and also Iaccidentally gave spoilers to
you, so I won't talk about thatanymore.
Okay, good, and as far aswatching stuff, I've been just
re-watching some Deep Space Nine, but I've been mostly just

(01:20:04):
falling asleep to it.
Yeah so yeah, not much in termsof that, no.

Speaker 1 (01:20:14):
So, no, no, I've been .
Mostly anything that I'vewatched it's been booktube
because it's summerween or wassummerween.
Uh, summerween is a readathonbook challenge, do hickey thingy
that one of the booktubers putson and a bunch of other
booktubers do it and then theyput out videos of them doing it
in the books that they read andstuff.

(01:20:35):
So that's what I've beenwatching.
That sounds like fun.
It is Because it's vlogging, sothey do their lives and again I
like to snoop, so Right.
So I had fun looking into theirlives, or at least what they
want to show me.

Speaker 2 (01:20:49):
I like the lives and stuff I I'm never like available
when, like I, I like this nailchannel or whatever.
Nicole loves nails and sheusually does like lives on
sunday, like in the middle ofthe day.
Well, right now it's sunday inthe middle of the day right here

(01:21:10):
, but usually I'm doing the kidshair right sunday in the middle
of the day, and so, yeah, Ialmost always miss it, even
though I really enjoy them.
And and sometimes she talksabout like her dirty books, that
she likes doing, which youwould enjoy her for that, and

(01:21:33):
various things she likes to bake, and she has a farm with like
chickens and a bunch of cats anda border collie.
Yeah, so it's very cute, um,yeah, but yeah, I haven't been
watching that for a while.

Speaker 1 (01:21:47):
So, yeah, sorry, nicole, if you're listening you
probably aren't, yeah, so wewere boring these last couple
weeks.

Speaker 2 (01:21:58):
Yeah, we only got a couple of likes in our last post
.
I know so Well we'll have to.
The magic is waning.

Speaker 1 (01:22:08):
Yeah, we're going to have to, I think, do a little
more social media stuff.
Yeah, do some teasing orsomething Teasing just like a
strip tease.
No, I think that would turn offeven more people, right?
Just keep posting them okay,like upcoming yeah exactly I

(01:22:32):
don't think anybody wants to seeeither of us do that.

Speaker 2 (01:22:34):
No, all right, unless it's one of those like car
crash situations we're so bad toourselves no, but people on
social media are veryunforgiving they are very
unforgiving.

(01:22:54):
No, yeah I wouldn't do that.
It would.
It would it's much kinder toourselves to probably not right?

Speaker 1 (01:23:04):
no, we get kicked off of all the social media.

Speaker 2 (01:23:07):
If we did a strip, it's true, okay, so Maybe if we
do a Patreon.

Speaker 1 (01:23:14):
Maybe Okay.
Is that it then?
Yes, okay, so this isn't aslong as I thought, so good for
us.

Speaker 2 (01:23:24):
I guess my juicy takes weren't as juicy as I
thought.

Speaker 1 (01:23:30):
So I guess that's it Like yeah, subscribe, download,
follow us us, write a review orreviews yeah, and email us yes
tell us all your innermostthoughts and fears and we will

(01:23:51):
talk to you next time.
All right, bye.

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