August 28, 2024 • 59 mins
In this episode, Kiki brings us the story of cultist James Ray and the three deaths in his Arizona sweat lodge. Rachel brings us the disappearance of Mehki Marcelo Saenz.
In the next episode, we'll discuss the book "Little, Crazy Children: A True Crime Tragedy of Lost Innocence" by James Renner.
Sources:
Mehki Marcelo Saenz:
National Center for Missing and Exploited Children
If you have any information please call the Mesa Police Department at 1-480-644-2211.
James Ray (Victims - Liz Nueman, James Shore, and Kirby Brown):
Deadly Cults (Season 2 Episode 1) - Spiritual Warriors
Socials:
Instagram: Details Are Sketchy - @details.are.sketchy
Facebook: Details Are Sketchy - @details.are.sketchy.2023
Instagram: Kiki - @kikileona84
Instagram: Rachel - @eeniemanimeenienailz
Email: details.are.sketchy.pod@gmail.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Kiki and I'm Rachel, and this is Details Are
Sketchy A true crime podcast andwe are hopefully going to be
more with it.
Yep, right now.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
We've been out in the sun for like two and a half
hours, so yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
My battery wouldn't start, and so we were waiting
for the AAA folk to come.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Apparently, it's been a busy day, it was almost like
an episode of Better Call Saul.
We would have had to crawlthrough the desert on our hands
and knees.
No, we were in the city.
I'm just kidding about that one.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
It felt like it.
I was ready to hitchhike home.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
It did feel like it.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Yeah, alright, so Rachel's got the missing person
today and then I got the maincase and then Rachel will fill
in the details after my maincase and then, as always, we'll
maybe gossip a little.
I don't know if we have thatmuch to talk about.
I didn't do anything.
(00:59):
I've been reading some books.
Okay, good, you'll havesomething to talk about.
I can bitch about the vet foran hour, or not the vet.
The vet was perfect, it's thecat that wasn't.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
It's the capitalism.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Which is not the vet's fault, but we'll talk
about that later.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Oh, Jesus Christ.
Yeah, you reminded me of Bill.
We'll talk about that later.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Yep, okay, hold our complaints until capitalism,
until the end of the true crimediscussion.
Okay, alright.
So my missing person is arunaway juvenile.
I'm not sure if I'm saying hisname right, maybe McKay Sands.
It's spelled M-E-H-K-I and thelast name is S-A-E-N-Z.
(01:47):
His age is 16, male.
He's African American, hair isblack, eyes are brown, he's got
locks in the picture.
Height is 5'7", weight, 150pounds, and he was last seen
wearing a tank top and khakipants.
(02:08):
That's so descriptive thatcould be anybody.
Mechie was last seen on 8-24 inthe afternoon leaving his
residence on foot in the area400 South Dobson Road in Mesa,
arizona.
Ooh, that's fucking hot.
Oh yeah, hotter than here.
(02:31):
Yeah, yeah, it is, and it'spretty fucking hot out here, so
hope you're okay.
So he has not been seen orheard from since, and so they're
asking you to contact the MesaPD if you have any information
regarding this investigation.
And I have a little bit moreinformation about his
(02:54):
disappearance after our case.
So there's a nice picture ofhim.
He looks like a happy young manand hopefully he's okay.
Yeah, so it's like I said, it'sreally hot in arizona, so maybe
he's just staying with a friendor something.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Let's hope so.
Okay, so my case is on thedeaths of three people in
outside sed, Arizona and theSweat Lodges about 15 years ago.
I'll get their names in aminute.
The perpetrator was James Ray.
(03:36):
Yeah, and we'll talk about whyhe's annoying in a minute.
We're going to start off inSedona.
We're going to start off inSedona.
According to the Sedona'sTourism Bureau, the city has a
worldwide reputation as aspiritual mecca and energy
hotspot.
There's a whole section on.
They use the term vortexes, butI believe the actual
(03:57):
pronunciation should be vortices.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
I follow this essential oil brand and they
have really nice essential oils.
They use some artists anddistillers and stuff like that.
So if you're into nice smellysmells, then they have some
really good essential oils.
But they have a pretty crunchyroll angle about it and, yeah,
(04:22):
like white granola type of newagey type stuff.
Yeah, very much so.
So when you said that it was aspiritual mecca, I immediately
thought about that.
Yeah, because they're likechakra alignment, all this stuff
.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Yeah, yeah you like respectfully y'all are super
white yeah just wait.
Okay, so there's a whole sectionon vortices.
Apparently, there are numeroustypes and a vortex site, in case
you don't know, are enhancedenergy locations that facilitate
prayer, meditation, mind-bodyhealing and exploring your
(05:04):
relationship with your soul andthe divine.
The Sedona vortices are thoughtto be swirling centers of
energy that are conducive tohealing, meditation and
self-exploration.
These are places where theearth seems especially alive
with energy, and the four bestknown are found at Airport, mesa
(05:24):
, cathedral, rock, bell Rock,and I believe it's pronounced
Boynton Canyon, b-o-y-n-t-o-n.
So anyway, that's kind of inthe area of where this takes
place.
So between Sedona andCottonwood is Angel Valley,
where people go on spiritualretreats.
(05:45):
On October 8, 2009, there was a911 call for emergency
responders to go to Angel ValleyRetreat Center.
There were multiple people whoneeded help.
Deputy Craig Bullen said hethought it was a mass suicide at
first because he had never hada call where that many people
(06:08):
needed assistance and, given thereputation of I probably right
some cults, I was.
I immediately would also thinkthat yeah, I would have
immediately thought back toheaven's gate.
Yep, so, um, he said that hearrived.
There were about 50 to 60people milling around, the fire
(06:28):
department was working on some,there were people lying down on
the ground also waiting to beworked on, and a helicopter had
already landed and another onewas waiting to land.
Ross Dixon was the firstdetective on the scene and he
could see a large dome coveredin tarps which would be the
(06:51):
sweat lodge.
He said he saw women with theirheads shaved walking around in
a daze, so he also initiallythought that it had to be some
kind of cult.
Yeah, yeah, I thought of what'sthat one that makes them shave
their heads in California?
Is that Sinon?
Speaker 2 (07:10):
You would know better than me.
You are the cult expert.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Resident cult expert.
I wouldn't say I'm an expert Iwould.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Of the two of us, you are the resident cult expert.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Okay, I will take the title.
He was told that several peoplewere in the hospital and three
people had died.
The three people were liznewman, 40, james shore, 40 and
kirby brown, 38, and that itinvolved a sweat lodge.
It was a representative of ourage range.
(07:42):
Yes, I know.
Yeah, two of them are my age.
It's depressing.
A sweat lodge is a low,dome-shaped or oblong hut made
from natural materials that isused for ceremonies that involve
containing steam.
They are generally part of thespiritual practices of some
(08:03):
indigenous and Native Americangroups.
In this particular sweat lodge,according to the practitioners,
there were heat rocks in themiddle of it and then they would
pour water over them to releasethe heat, and this is somehow
supposed to enlighten the peoplein the sweat lodge.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Are there drugs in the steam?
Speaker 1 (08:25):
We'll get there.
It was the final event of thespiritual warrior retreat.
I'll talk about that in asecond.
So the investigation began withDiskin interviewing everybody
he could find.
He started with the man whogenerally facilitated heating
the rocks, or I guess he washeating the rocks this time.
I couldn't really understandwhat he said.
(08:45):
The man said that he worked atangel valley and had conducted
several sweat lodges for severaldifferent groups, and the
leader of this particular groupwas a man named james ray.
So let's talk about him for abit.
James ray was something of acelebrity at the time.
He was passed off, or passedhimself off, as a self-help guru
(09:07):
.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
He was involved with the film the Secret.
Do you remember that?
No, okay, we'll talk about itin a second, which in itself was
a self-help phenomenon.
Dvd sales in the US alonereached $65 million, and I
remember when this thing cameout I didn't at the time
actually know it was like a DVDthing, because there was a book
(09:32):
that went with it and I workedat the used bookstore and so
that book would come in and goout all the time during that.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Maybe I vaguely, like I remember different, like
self-help, like crazes, yeah,but I largely ignored them
because I was like this is allbullshit I don't think you could
.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
You may not know of it, but I know you've seen the
book.
It's still being sold and theyjust had it front and center at
barnes and noble.
Not too long.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Of course they did yeah okay, so anyway, let's see.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Uh, so, for those of you that don't know what the
secret is, or if you need arefresher, it is based on the
law of attraction.
Essentially, your thoughtsdictate reality.
Now, that concept is still partof the self-help genre, I think
.
Sometimes the law of attractiongets called manifestation or
(10:23):
manifesting Very similar ideas.
Okay, so the secret is whatmade James Ray famous.
Now, I want to point out thathe did not write it or
officially come up with it.
He was just one of the peoplewho were part of it.
So Melissa Phillips was afollower of James Ray.
(10:44):
Lisa Phillips was a follower ofJames Ray.
She said she saw him first onthe Secret and then on both
Oprah and Larry King and, forthose of you who are young, out
in the audience back in 2009,.
That was like that made you theit person if you were on Oprah
and Larry King.
She believed that he must besomething pretty great if he was
(11:10):
on those shows.
So at the time, she wasdivorced and her parents had
just passed away and she beganto feel like she wanted more
from life, and James Raypromised that if people went
through his course, he wouldhelp them change their lives.
She said she really believedwhat he said was true and that
her life would change.
Connie Joy, another follower,said she had also seen him on
(11:31):
the Secret.
She and her husband had wantedto expand their spiritual
experience.
She said he was very personable, very charismatic, two very big
red flags and that he couldread people.
Well, I would think, right,yeah, uh, maybe not, maybe that
maybe those are just beige flags.
(11:52):
He would say, now, this is abig red flag.
Anybody who calls themselveskahuna and they are not hawaiian
is a fucking asshole that's notgood.
um, he said that he was trainedin Hawaiian spiritual practices.
Well, that's what I'm sayingAll of this bullshit.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
It's all based on cultural appropriation.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
Yeah.
So he said he was trained inHawaiian spiritual practices,
that he was a shaman and trainedby Native Americans to run a
sweat lodge.
So they thought, because he hadall of this experience and all
this training, that he was worththe money he charged.
And I will get to the money ina second.
So the core of James Ray'steaching is that you can control
(12:35):
your destiny and that he canshow you how to do that.
He had what he called thejourney of Power.
It was constructed like apyramid.
It was five main events, endingin Spiritual Warrior.
Each event got more and moreexpensive, from the very first
free event to the $10,000Spiritual Warrior event which
(12:59):
was the ending.
Of course it's not going to bethe actual ending.
I'm sure he had something elseto sell them.
There's no way.
There's just an end.
The very first course on thepyramid was called the harmonic
wealth weekend.
So this is again all based onmanifesting wealth, right, uh.
(13:21):
Then creating absolute wealth.
Then practical mysticism, whichwhen connie went said, she said
it was in tahoe and um, thatwas the one where you did the
fire walking exercises right.
Then you had modern magic andthen the final one was spiritual
warrior.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
What's the difference between modern magic and like
ancient magic?
I don't know Is that the othercategory of magic?
Speaker 1 (13:50):
I don't know the events were programming people
to accept the instructions ofJames Ray, even if he was doing
so, even if doing so waspersonally detrimental.
And that's exactly it.
It's all conditioning rightFrom the very first go.
So each event had a physicalchallenge, like breaking boards
(14:12):
or bricks with your handswalking over hot coals, putting
your hand into an aquarium ofsnakes swinging through trees.
He was essentially simulatinghaving a spiritual breakthrough
by bringing people to the edgeof what they could handle
physically.
So another way of saying thatis he basically caused a
(14:36):
breakdown and called it abreakthrough, a spiritual
breakthrough.
Right, connie said thateveryone would say things like,
no, I can't do that, I can'twalk on hot coals.
And then he would say, yes, youcan, you can do it.
And then you would do it andyou'd realize that you were
wrong.
So again, in other words, he'dmake you believe that his
(15:00):
judgment was better than yours.
So conditioning, melissa said.
He made himself sound very wiseand authoritative, so she
really didn't question him.
Her very first event was in 2007in Las Vegas.
She said the event had about 12, sorry, 2,000 people.
It was three days.
(15:21):
There was lots of music, brightlights and a lot of activity
you would journal and get intogroups and you would talk, which
I don't know sounds like anightmare to me.
You would be surrounded byenthusiastic people who were all
happy to be there.
She said, doing all thosechallenges were thrilling and
addictive and if you led a quiet, boring life, then you felt
(15:44):
empowered because you didsomething you didn't think you
could do.
She said quote there was agreat fear that you would
disappoint him if you weren'table to accomplish things and
you didn't want to be singledout.
End quote.
So, in other words, I think hewould probably embarrass you or
shame you in front of everybody.
Group shaming is such a greattactic for a cult.
(16:08):
Right, according to herspiritual warrior, was a
spiritual endeavor so thatattendees could get in touch
with who they are and whatmatters.
According to his teachings, youare either a placeholder in
life or you're growing.
And if you're not doing thingsthat are scaring you a bit or
(16:29):
challenging you or pushing yououtside of your comfort zone,
then you are not growing.
And if you're not growing, thenyou're a placeholder.
So that's the mindset of thepeople who are in that sweat
lodge.
Right, you've just paid $10,000.
You've already done a weekworth of shit.
(16:50):
You've probably shaved yourhair.
You don't want to be shamed,you don't want to be a
placeholder, you don't believein yourself anymore because he's
made you believe that hisjudgment is better, right?
So Diskin said that James RaySounds about religion.
Well, yeah, it's a.
(17:10):
Yeah, it's, it's a it's it'sreligious cult in self-help.
Yes, uh, what do you want tocall it?
Clothing?
it's all the same genre yeah,it's just that some are a little
more benign than others.
I know you don't agree with me,but I I mean more in the terms
(17:30):
of self-help, like I mean.
There there's the very basicthings that are good, things
like just reading like a generic, whatever self-help book.
That's a little bit different,yeah, although probably a waste
of money yeah, althoughsometimes you know I'm I'm not a
big self-help person, but Ihave done a little bit of it,
mainly because I get told to doit by not my current therapist
(17:53):
but former ones better and shitlike that.
Then I guess it's not well, it'snot just about feeling better,
but sometimes you don't thinkabout the simplest things making
a big difference, right.
Like you don't think about whata things making a big
difference right, that's true.
Like you don't think about whata difference making your bed
will make in your day, you know.
Or just getting up and brushingyour teeth, right?
(18:14):
Yeah, doing a small habit canchange your life significantly.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Sometimes you just need somebody else to tell you
that I think Katie needs towrite a self-help book, you know
what I probably could write?
Speaker 1 (18:26):
a pretty good one.
Yeah, that's true, you wouldmake a lot of money.
There you go.
I'd have to lie about mycredentials, though Rocket to
the stars, just like what's herface.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
I already forgot her name Beatrix.
Beatrice, no.
Who wrote the Glass Alice book?
Beatrice Sparks, sparks, yes.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Yeah, I don't want to be that horrible person.
Yeah, no.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
No, but I'm saying she lied about her credentials.
Oh yes, yes, to get ahead, yeah, and write whatever nonsense
she cared to.
At least the nonsense you wouldwrite would be benign yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Make your bed.
People Just make your bed.
Yeah, I say that having notmade my bed in a few days, but I
mean, it really does.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
You know, just like it is nice when you make your
bed and it's like ah.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
Sometimes, when you're depressed and just
forcing yourself out of bed,even though it feels like
climbing Everest, makes a hugedifference in your day.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
In my house.
If I'm like I'm going to likelie down on my bed and like
whatever, play on my phone orsomething, then it's like
inevitable.
My kids come and they pile onthe bed with me and then it's
not so relaxing anymore.
It's like kid fight, play partyRight.
(19:54):
Like they start having anargument like right there.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
So we're going back to Diskin.
I forgot to say at the top ofthis that I got pretty much all
of this from People InvestigatesCults, an episode from that
short-lived series.
Unfortunately, they didn't domore than that, which is
unfortunate.
Yeah, that is unfortunate.
So Diskin said that James Raywas the target of the
(20:25):
investigation early on becausehe was the one leading the sweat
lodge early on.
Because he was the one leadingthe sweat lodge.
So I guess that means that guythat they originally talked to.
I guess, now that I'm thinkingabout it, that was the guy that
was heating the rocks outside ofthe sweat lodge and then james
ray was inside the sweat lodge.
Okay, so james ray waspositioned right next to the
door or flap.
(20:46):
He would call for more rocksand the flap would open and the
rocks would be brought in andwater poured on them, which
would then create the steam.
Most groups at these lodgeswould do four rounds, not seven
or eight like James Ray did.
Usually with other groups.
It was very laid back.
(21:06):
If you needed a break, youcould leave and come back back.
If you needed a break, youcould leave and come back.
But when it came to james ray'slodges, when people needed to
leave.
He would tell them things likeyou're better than that, you
need to stay in.
We'll get to more of that in asecond.
Yeah, yeah, it's.
Oh, my god, this whole thingsounds like a terrible nightmare
.
I hate being hot right and thenbeing in a sweat lodge and
(21:28):
humid.
That's the worst In Arizona why?
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Yeah, I don't think that.
I mean, I don't think I wouldmake a very good cult member
anyway, no, no.
But I especially wouldn't makea very good cult member if
people made me hot and if peopletry to shame me publicly then I
would just like explode ontheir ass, right?
Speaker 1 (21:55):
I don't think I would explode, but I would.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
I would probably sit there politely and take it and
then leave and never go back Iwould be like who the fuck are
you like, yeah, like likemichael skype to to toby's.
Like who do you think you are?
What gives you the right?
Only the difference is Toby isjust sitting there, very benign
and passively.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
Well, you are a bigger, well, a more forceful
person than I am, which isprobably a good thing.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
It's probably a good thing person than I am, which is
probably a good thing.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
It's probably a good thing.
I'm more passive, but I don'tthink I'd make a good cult
member either, because one I'dbe like you want how much money
for that?
Right, no, thank you.
And second, I would be like I'mnot lazy, but I do have chronic
depression, right, well, I get,I don't know if they've
(22:51):
actually labeled it chronic, butI've had lifelong depression.
I've been depressed since I was10, basically, and I also have
tremendous anxiety, and both ofthose things lend to not
laziness, but to me not beingable to function the way that a
cult would need me or require meto function Like just listening
(23:15):
to some of these things noteven for this one, but to any
cult where they're like, likeScientology, you need to go in
and get a reading or whatever.
I feel like that's way too muchfucking work.
I'm not doing that.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Yeah, yeah, same.
But like with executivedysfunction, like yeah, somebody
was like, yeah, exactly.
Like I can barely, like I can'teven keep on top of making my
appointments and shit, like Iwould definitely not go in and
make a reading.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
We would be cult failures.
Rachel, They'd ask us politelyto leave.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
I mean, I don't think Scientologists want me anyways,
because don't you have to likepay a bunch of money and stuff
like that and I don't have anymoney?
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Yeah, well, they get you in for free.
That's what most of these do.
They get you in for free, theydo whatever, give you a test or
whatever, or they love bomb youor whatever their tactic is, and
then they basically convinceyou that you need this in order
to be quote-unquote fixed.
(24:15):
Yeah, so I used to back when Iwas in journalism school um,
scientology, at least the one inalbuquerque, I don't know if
it's still there, but it wasthat they had an online test you
could take and I wanted to do astory on scientology.
I didn't really understandanything about it was like
before all this stuff came out,yeah, and I kind I wanted to do
a story on Scientology.
I didn't really understandanything about it.
It was like before all thisstuff came out and I kind of
wanted to do a story on itbecause I thought it was kind of
(24:36):
fascinating and they had anonline test, and so I took the
test.
I took it like five times underfive different names and five
different email addresses, andit didn't matter what answer I
gave.
Something was always wrong withme that needed to be, of course
, fixed and could be fixed if Iwent in and then they would talk
(24:59):
to me, which then would lead toa lot of money with you, then
how are they going to get you inso they can exactly?
Speaker 2 (25:05):
yeah, I mean, isn't that the way of all religion too
?
They're like something's wrongwith you and you need to fix it.
Yeah, it's true, it's kind ofthe premise of most religions.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
It's kind of the premise of our society.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
It's true, it is the premise of our society.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Okay, so back to our Back to crime.
Back to crime.
So Diskin said that James Raywas the target of the.
Oh, we already did that.
So Melissa was at the SpiritWarrior event and she said that
the scene looked like a war zoneand people were moaning and
(25:45):
they couldn't walk.
People were crawling andstumbling out of the tent.
She said people asked James Ray, what should we do?
And he replied how would I know?
I'm not a nurse.
And then walked off.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
What an asshole.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Oh, oh, it gets worse .
I'm sure it does.
So the investigators can't findhim, so they go to his
assistant who tells them he'sback in his bungalow.
He answers the door, in hisboxers eating a sandwich.
Deputy Bolin said you need toget out there, your people need
you.
You need to go talk to theinvestigators.
(26:21):
James Ray apparently didn'tlike being bothered and asked
why his assistant couldn't takecare of it.
The detective tried talking tohim, uh, or I guess, eventually
put on pants and went out and um, the investigator tried talking
to him on pants.
yeah, yeah, uh tried talking tohim and he lawyered up right
(26:42):
away.
No surprise, uh, and they lethim go because at that point the
only thing he was reallyguilting of was being an
absolute piece of shit, rightand um, he actually, I guess,
left the scene at that point,like completely left, like not
left the bungalow and andeverything.
Okay, just to illustrate thepiece of shit point that I was
(27:05):
making kirby brown's mom so shewas one of the the dead said
that she received a call fromJames Ray after the death of
Kirby and he asked how she wasand she replied I'm in shock.
And he replied quote I am too.
This is the most horrific thingthat has ever happened to me in
(27:25):
my life.
Yeah, what a way to make itabout you, buddy.
Indeed, you're calling a motherwho just lost her daughter and
you're complaining, obviouslylike I don't know, not to
psychoanalyze, but obviously Iam gonna psychoanalyze.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Cult leaders are all narcissists.
So like I like.
How else are you gonna thinkthat this is okay, right?
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Yeah, yeah.
So a few hours later she got acall.
Kirby's mom got a call fromKirby's roommate at the retreat.
So, in contrast to James Ray,the roommate said that started
(28:11):
to cry and said that she was sosorry that she couldn't save her
.
Yeah, that that's theappropriate response, not making
it about yourself.
Yeah, okay.
Diskin said that there were somany people and so many factors
that could determine if theincident was just a terrible
accident or an actual crime.
Some factors were things likewas there a toxin involved?
(28:32):
Was it a ritual where somethingwas ingested that could have
caused the deaths?
So they took samples from allover the sweat lodge to be
tested.
Ultimately, the forensic andchemical tests were negative for
everything they could think of.
It was determined that thedeaths were caused by a
combination of things Poorcirculation and no airflow, and
(28:55):
the heat.
The evidence also showed thatthe people in the lodge showing
heat-related illnesses were notphysically capable or mentally
capable to leave, I bet.
So it was clear that theincident was a crime, but was it
(29:16):
manslaughter or negligenthomicide?
Now, the difference between thetwo is in the mindset of the
person, so in this case, jamesRay's mindset.
So did he know that peoplecould die, or did he fail to
perceive that people could die?
Investigators find out thatJames Ray had been alerted to
(29:38):
the fact that Kirby wasunconscious, having trouble
breathing, and that he was verydismissive about it.
They know that it could be thatmaybe he didn't fully hear or
couldn't understand or believedthat she was okay.
In other words, they gave himkind of the benefit of the doubt
.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Yeah, a big fucking benefit of the doubt.
Well, hold on.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
So they decided to do a full investigation into his
past.
Right, I mean, they got to dothat because the defense
attorney could make all of thosearguments.
So they have to prove thatthose things are not true.
So they have to prove thatthose things are not true.
So they analyzed other eventsand interviewed participants of
those events to find out whattypes of safety measures he had
(30:20):
in place for the higher riskactivities that he would do.
It became evident that he wascareless in the way that he did
the things.
People had broken hands,someone had almost lost their
eye, had it poked out duringsomething called the arrow break
exercise I assume that's whereyou try to break an arrow.
(30:41):
He never had paramedicsstanding by or even a fire truck
waiting outside.
He would just sweep theseincidences under the rug.
If somebody was hurt, theywould be ushered off to the side
so that it wouldn't create ascene and people wouldn't know.
They also found that he had ahistory of running those extreme
(31:04):
sweat lodges and again in caseyou forgot, his were extreme.
Most of the time you do likefour rounds.
He did seven or eight in hislodges even four rounds sounds
like a lot to me, yeah and alsoin generally speaking, when you
do sweat lodges, you can leaveany round of a sweat to be
honest, um, generally, even withthose rounds, you can leave at
(31:28):
any time and come back if youwant to.
You couldn't do that in a JamesRay Lodge.
I mean you could, but you wouldbe shamed.
In 2005, a man had aheat-related illness in one of
his sweat lodges and had to betransported to a hospital.
Apparently, james Ray had beenfurious about the fact that the
(31:50):
man had been taken to thehospital in an ambulance.
I assume it was in an ambulance, maybe they just did it in a
car.
The sweat lodges actuallyapparently got more extreme
every year.
So, connie, if you remember herI think I forgot to mention she
and her husband were part ofthis and she and her husband
were part of this.
They had been.
She said that they had been tosomething like I forget if it
(32:12):
was 27 or 37 of James Ray'sevents in like three years.
So they were devotees.
So she said, whenever a groupof them would get nervous about
the safety of the exercises thatJames Ray would ask them to do,
they would tell each other he'sa businessman, he wouldn't ask
us to do anything that wasdangerous because we could get
(32:33):
hurt and that would be bad forbusiness.
But it became more of aquestion towards the end of
doing those events with him.
So she and her husbandeventually leave, and I'll get
to that in a second.
So in the episode she goes onto talk about her own experience
in a sweat lodge during aspiritual warrior event in 2007.
(32:54):
So she said she was quote onthe edge of the pit.
Steam just comes up, it'ssearing your arms, it's searing
your legs.
You can't breathe and I'mthinking, ok, the second that
gate opens, I'm out of here.
That gate opens, I'm out ofhere.
So the thing opens and I go tostand up and I realize I can't
stand.
I'm doing this crab walk.
(33:14):
Finally I get up and I'mhanging onto some of the
branches inside and behind mesomebody else came up who's also
going to get out, and they wereactually strong enough to grab
the two people that were infront of them and and just
pushed them forward, whichpushed me forward and we just
fell out.
People are clearly not okay.
(33:35):
I don't need a 911 call, butI'm not great.
But there were people there whowere seriously not good and I
kept saying people are reallybad, we need to call somebody,
and one of the volunteers saidno, this happens every year,
it's okay.
She told me you're not allowedto call 911.
They did back in 2005 and itreally ticked him off and we're
not allowed.
(33:55):
End quote.
After that, connie left JamesRay International and did not
attend the Spiritual Warrior in2009.
So, according to Diskin, jamesRay was running the sweat lodge
again, but there was no evidencethat he would physically stop
someone from leaving, but hewould convince them to stay
(34:18):
inside even though they were indistress.
They want to take a look.
The police want to take a lookat manuals and things like that
to see what the safetyprocedures were.
They want to see if he deviatedin any way from his own
policies on how he was supposedto run the sweat lodge.
The investigators get a warrantfor his office in Carlsbad,
(34:40):
california.
They couldn't find any materialthat would leave them to
believe that he had any kind oftraining in how to run a sweat
lodge.
So, in other words, he liedabout being trained by Native
Americans, right.
Another thing is that he didn'tgive refunds, so he would claim
.
So what he would do is in orderto get people excited about
(35:02):
spending the $10,000, is that hewould claim that no one asked
for a refund.
Right's how good it was, that'show good the program was, but
obviously that's not exactlytrue.
They didn't ask for refundsbecause james ray didn't give
refunds.
So people felt compelled to goand participate.
(35:23):
Right, you're spending tenthousand dollars.
That's a lot of fucking money.
Yeah, and that was the case forJames Shore.
He was one of the dead.
He didn't want to go, but hefelt he would waste the $10,000
if he didn't.
He had already paid it.
Melissa describes this thespiritual warrior event.
(35:45):
So she had gone to thisweek-long spiritual warrior
event in 2009.
So she was.
She is a witness to thisweek-long Spiritual Warrior
event in 2009,.
So she was a witness to this.
So she said day one,participants were given the
quote opportunity to let go ofvanity.
He wanted people to shave offtheir hair.
She said, quote he was veryemphatic that we should do
(36:08):
everything in our power to dowhat he suggested and told us he
was the guru, he was in charge,this was his event and if we
followed his direction, we wouldfind answers to life mysteries.
There were a few women whodecided not to shave off their
hair and they were pressured andridiculed end quote.
According to her, everyone wasexcited and nervous to go into
(36:32):
the sweat lodge.
She said that James Ray toldthem that it would feel like
they were going to die.
So this episode actually playeda recording of James Ray
describing what would go on inthe sweat lodge Also, I just
wanted to point this out becauseit made me think of it when I
saw it.
Everything except what actuallyhappened in the sweat lodge was
recorded.
(36:53):
Everything that week wasrecorded, which immediately
reminded me of Jim Jones andJonestown.
He recorded everything, yeah,and also made me think of Nixon,
because Nixon recordedeverything too.
Anyway, that was just a thoughtthat popped into my head.
So he recorded everything.
In this recording he says quoteyou most likely will feel like
(37:15):
your skin is going to fall offyour body.
It's hot, hellacious hot.
But you see, the true spiritualwarrior has conquered death.
You just have to let go and sayif I'm going to die, it's okay.
End quote.
Melissa said on that dayeveryone went in and sat in a
circle facing the rock pit.
James Ray told them there wouldbe at least seven rounds.
(37:38):
They could not leave during around, but if they just could
not quote transcend and overcomeit, meaning their discomfort,
then they could leave when thegates or the flap was opened.
Melissa said that people werebecoming delirious and she
herself actually began feelingsick and dizzy so she left after
(38:02):
one of the rounds and got somewater, but she began to think
about the fact that she'd spent$10,000.
This was the last event.
It would be a waste to notcomplete it.
So she went back in.
She said that people kepttelling James Ray that Liz
needed help, but he said not toworry about it, that she knew
(38:25):
what she was doing because she'ddone it before she was.
I think had been part of thisfor three to four years and I
think she had gone to aspiritual warrior retreat before
.
People said many times thatKirby needed help, but James Ray
said that they would get to her.
At the end of the round JamesShore had actually dragged an
(38:45):
unconscious person out in frontof James Ray, then went back in.
I guess he hit his head.
I wasn't clear on that.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
He hit the person's head he was dragging.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
No, he hit his own head when he went back in, but
I'm not sure if that's actuallywhat they said or if I
misinterpreted what they said.
Anyway, he went over to helpKirby because he knew Kirby was
in distress, but both of themwere dead by the end of the
round.
James shore I'm sorry, notjames shore, james ray was
(39:18):
arrested for manslaughter.
The state apparently put on areally good case, they had all
the experts, etc.
But the jury was not allowed tohear about the previous
incidents at james ray eventsbecause of arizona rules of
evidence, rules 404 oh, arizona.
(39:38):
Well, a lot of states have it.
We, I think we have a similarone ourselves, which says quote
evidence of a person's characteris not admissible for the
purpose of proving an action ona particular occasion.
End quote.
Those incidents, of course,were important to understanding
not only James Ray's mindset butalso those of the participants
(40:01):
in the sweat lodge?
Speaker 2 (40:02):
How?
Is a person's character notsomething that you need to take
into account on whether or notthey're capable of malicious
intent.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
I think it's just over prejudicial to the
defendant.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
Maybe.
Yeah, no, I agree that that'san issue, but I'm saying, in the
case of like like violent or orendangerment through negligence
, that that kind of history isvery relevant to the case and
but could also be overlyprejudicial in fact it there's
(40:37):
usually like like evidence showthat that when there's like that
kind of pattern of of violenceand negligence, that it tends to
escalate I don't know, dude.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
I mean I'm not.
I'm not saying I agree with therule of evidence.
I agree with you, especially ina case like this, especially
when we get to the nextparagraph or two paragraphs.
So because of that rule, thejury didn't get to hear all that
stuff.
The defense only had twowitnesses.
(41:10):
James Ray didn't testify on hisbehalf and the defense said
their whole argument basicallywasn't really an argument.
They were basically justattacking the estate's case.
James Ray was found guilty of alesser charge and was given two
years in prison for the deathof each victim, for a total of
(41:32):
six years.
You want to get really mad.
The judge said that they couldrun concurrent, meaning he would
serve them all at the same time.
That's bullshit.
So he only had to serve twoyears for the deaths of three
(41:52):
people and I don't think he evenspent the full two years in
prison.
Yeah, I think it was close totwo years, but I think he got
out a few months early.
He was released in 2013.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
This is like what I'm saying.
Whether or not I don't know, Ithink it's violence, even though
it doesn't involve, like youknow, it's a kind of passive
violence.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
I'm not done yet you want to get even more mad?
Oh God, continue.
James Ray is back at theself-help guru stuff.
Oh no, he spun the story intohis own personal tragedy, jesus.
So the death of three peoplehad to happen so that he could
(42:39):
teach people how to overcome,come on adversity.
He just published a new bookthat came out in 2024, april of
this year.
Speaker 2 (42:49):
He does appearances uh, and I looked at it.
Take this guy seriously.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
I I looked at his website.
There's stuff on a whole bunchof different themes.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
I think he's got some stuff going with his wife and,
yeah, honestly it's gross I mean, I guess, I guess in a world
where people worship the groundthat trump walks on, I guess I'm
not really shocked no, I mean,look, I am all for people coming
(43:21):
out of prison and trying tomake something of themselves and
getting that chance, but itjust seems so gross and
disgusting.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
And then you're not allowed to have animals anymore.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
Yeah, Like, if you killed a bunch of people, like
doing this like health spa thing, like you should not be allowed
to do that anymore.
(43:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
So I do want to say that there is a documentary
about him that I think was putout by CNN.
I want to say it was CNN.
It was one of the newsorganizations.
I'm pretty sure it was CNN.
I know it wasn't Fox, it wasone of the other leaning ones.
Now I didn't get a chance towatch it.
I was planning on doing acompletely different case and
then I found out that one of ourfavorite podcasts literally
(44:14):
just did that case.
So I did this one.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
I have a question.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
Do you?
Speaker 2 (44:20):
think the publicity around this case has hurt or
helped his business.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
Well, I don't think most people even know about him
anymore.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
Wow, people do have very short memories.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
Yeah, this documentary.
I didn't get a chance to watchit, but he advertises it on his
website and that makes me wonderhow unbiased it actually is.
Like has CNN bought into hisbullshit, or is this guy
promoting it in the sense oflike even the bad stuff is good
(44:58):
publicity, or like to makehimself somehow look better?
Like look, I can take criticism, I don't know.
Question, although I think Iknow the answer for both of us.
Is James Ray a cult leader?
Speaker 2 (45:12):
Yes, why he convinced a bunch of people through
manipulation and tactics of likewhat's the word Withdrawal?
Like extreme states toinfluence their decisions and,
(45:36):
like I said earlier, to put themin a mental state where they're
very suggestible.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
Yes, so I wrote down mine.
I said I agree with theanti-cult activist and attorney,
jason Jones, who's part of thisepisode.
So I would say, yes, he is acult leader, but in a more
modern sense of the word.
Right, like most people, whenthey think cult leader, they
think communes or somethingalong those lines.
So in other words, these moremodern cults are more about
(46:08):
monetary transaction and lessabout that whole living
communally thing.
So who can afford to do that.
So in these modern cults, thesegurus, uh basically have adapted
this idea of let them live athome yeah you know, let them
keep their jobs.
(46:28):
But you take everything elseright because normally a cult
leader.
You got to leave your house andyou got to give up everything
and you got to give up your joband go work for the cult.
But this you get to know itthere.
I'm sorry that reminds me ofjesus but they take everything
(46:48):
else, especially their money,and according to jason jones,
it's actually a lot easier toget sucked in, and I would agree
with that if all they're askingof you easier, right, yeah?
Well, that's it.
If they're only asking you forsome money and they promise you
everything, that's easy.
(47:10):
Yeah, somehow you'll find themoney if you want it.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
Bad enough like losing, like leaving your home,
leaving your family and all that.
Speaker 1 (47:18):
Yeah, that's that's gonna be a lot harder to
convince.
That's a bigger ask yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
So yeah, I agree, that's more insidious, yes, far
more insidious.
I mean, all cults are prettyinsidious, but yeah yeah, just
in that like more subversivekind of sneaky way.
Yeah, that's what I'm sayingbecause it doesn't it.
Speaker 1 (47:39):
It doesn't it doesn't look like our idea of a cult.
It doesn't ring those alarmbells?
Speaker 2 (47:46):
No, it doesn't.
How's your feeling about MLMsas modern day cults?
Speaker 1 (47:53):
Oh, absolutely.
Well, look, here's the thing.
So have you read the bookCultish?
Nope, Okay.
So there's this book calledCultish it comes.
It's written by an academic I'mblanking on her name right now.
Her expertise is in linguisticsand things like that, and she
(48:14):
also has a podcast called, Ithink, cultish or is it a cult,
something like that.
Anyway, there are loads ofthings that feel cultish but
aren't necessarily a cult.
Now, mlms are one that it couldbe a cult, and I personally I
(48:36):
would say it's a cult, but it'salso not in the fullest
definition of cult.
Yeah, so it's more heavycultish, right, right?
So like she also talks aboutthings like that bicycle thingy,
now that's kind of slippingaway what?
(48:58):
do you call that?
I don't know.
Now it's peloton, but beforethat it was just cycling.
I think, yeah and um, beforethat, what was the one where you
were like flipping tires?
Speaker 2 (49:09):
oh, um, what is the name of that cross?
Speaker 1 (49:15):
fit cross fit.
Yeah, and the reason thatthey're cultish is because you
would get into these smallgroups or, like in cycling or in
Peloton, there would be afavorite leaders, right, and you
would be shamed if you missedone or if you needed to do
(49:37):
something and you couldn't makeit right.
So, that's a little bit cultish, but it's not a cult, but it
feels that way.
I don't think cycling as awhole is cult-ish, but there are
certainly elements within itthat lean towards the cult-ish
stuff.
Speaker 2 (49:53):
So would you say like , because I would say like you
know, that stuff is, like youknow, they're trends, they're
crazes, Are those things cultishTrans?
Speaker 1 (50:02):
and crazes.
I think it depends on thebehaviors of the people within
those things, right?
So, for example, one of themost Fandoms they can be.
They can be, I don't want toget yeah, they definitely can be
.
I don't want to get theSwifties on my ass, but some
elements within that.
Speaker 2 (50:23):
Yeah, the Swifties, the.
Speaker 1 (50:25):
Bayhive, yes, and also I mean even Harry Potter.
To an extent there are peoplewho get into that.
You know it's not everybody inthese groups, there are just
certain elements by some peoplethat kind of make it lean that
way.
But another point that sheactually made is like so some of
(50:50):
the things about one of thethings that makes a cult a cult
is basically word salad oraffirmations, but some really
good things.
Groups use affirmism, what'sthe word I'm trying to say,
affirmations, and and sometimesfeels like it's, but like like,
(51:11):
for example, she used, um, Ithink she used the example of
like those drives to raise moneyfor, like, breast cancer, right
, right, like they use thingsthat, taken out of context, are
kind of culty, you know, andactually somebody I think she
interviewed somebody who was incharge of those kind of things
(51:33):
and the lady was like, yeah,they're kind of culty, but you
know that's kind of works onpeople, right, and you kind of
need it.
So that's it.
My point, I think, was justthat, was just that like that's
cult-ish, but cult-ish doesn'tnecessarily mean bad.
Speaker 2 (51:47):
Was that about it for your story?
Speaker 1 (51:49):
That's totally it for my story.
Speaker 2 (51:52):
Do we want to talk about what we've been reading
and watching and all thosethings?
Sure.
Speaker 1 (51:58):
It's all you, oh, it's all me.
I, oh God those things.
Sure it's all you.
I, oh god.
Um, I didn't do anythingbecause, nice, first my poor cat
legit, my poor cat had to gointo the vet a couple of times
and it was a thing and um.
So they're just.
And on top of that, I havethree schools I teach in.
(52:20):
Two of them started last week,one started this week.
A couple of classes I nevertaught before, so I spent a lot
of time creating those, so Ijust didn't have the ability to,
or the time to do any reading.
Wow.
Speaker 2 (52:35):
I have pretty much abandoned not abandoned, but
this year I've read, I think,maybe one, maybe two physical
books and the rest have all beenaudiobooks.
Because I just like, like, whenI'm you know whatever, I'm
making dinner washing disheslike sweeping my floor.
Whatever I can listen to my book, yeah, and like, sometimes I'll
(52:58):
listen to music, likeespecially if I'm doing really
tedious chores, and sometimes Ineed music because, like it
gives me that oh, that littlelike dopamine, yeah, but like if
I'm just doing like stuff, that, yeah, then I usually listen to
my books and it helps pass thetime of doing those chores.
(53:20):
So let me see.
So I think the last book Italked about was Sand right by
Hugh Howey, and since then Iread the Death of Jane Lawrence
by Caitlin Starling, which wasnice.
I enjoyed it.
I didn't enjoy it as much asthe Luminous Dead, but that's
(53:43):
more because the Luminous Deadhas more like themes that I dig,
like being in like a cave, likebody horror, like I mean, this
did have some body horror aswell, certainly More sci-fi.
So that's why I just it's justlike more to my taste, yeah,
(54:05):
basically, but this was alsoquite good.
Yeah, but it's, like you know,more of like your gothic ghost
story type of stuff.
But I probably like that one,yeah, but it also does have
those same elements from theluminous dead, like
claustrophobia, likepsychological horror you don't
(54:26):
know exactly what's real andwhat's not body horror type of
things as well, and so, yeah, itwas quite enjoyable.
So for for like a ghost typestory, which usually aren't like
the highest on my list, um,yeah, I quite enjoyed it.
So, yeah, I think I I like theway that this author does
(54:49):
stories.
I also read the whole by.
I'm not sure if I'm saying thisright.
Hi, young pune, he's like aKorean author.
So, yeah, I thought it wasquite good.
Like the story kind of unfoldswith these nuances as you go
(55:10):
along For the length of the book.
It's got a lot of complexityand it touches on a lot of
things Misogyny, ableism and, Iguess, ageism a bit.
And just, yeah, as we learnabout this character, as
(55:35):
everything is going on and welearn more about him is going on
and we learn more about him.
Like, I don't want to give toomuch away, but something may be
bad, we're concerned mighthappen to him.
But as we learn more about thecharacter, maybe our perception
of him shifts a little bitinteresting as the story goes on
I I thought you were talkingabout.
Speaker 1 (55:56):
There's another book called the whole, but it's by a
japanese writer, hiroku oyamadaoh huh, which I think perhaps
you would like.
Maybe, um, but anyway, shewrote he, she, he, uh, the
author we'll go with.
The author wrote another bookthat I had spent months and
(56:19):
months and months looking forand I didn't find it until I
went to a Japanese bookstore inLittle Tokyo in LA called the
Factory, which I think maybe youmight also like, because I
think it's maybe satireSomething along those lines of
capitalism and working andthings like that.
Speaker 2 (56:42):
This one is about a man who wakes up from a horrible
car accident completelyparalyzed.
His wife is dead and when he'sreleased from the hospital, he's
being cared for by hismother-in-law for by his, his
(57:04):
mother-in-law and like it startsout with like a, you know, very
good relationship.
And as they go on the, therelationship seems to devolve
and she starts digging a gianthole in his garden.
yeah, so it's yeah that soundsand it has those also those
elements of claustrophobia,right, body horror, like he's
(57:26):
trapped in his own body.
Yeah, so Interesting.
Speaker 1 (57:31):
Yeah, I hate to cut this short, but my car is ready.
Oh nice, but hold on.
Before we do that, we got toremember.
Next episode episode 24, is ourbook, which is Little Crazy
Children by James Renner.
I read two more books.
(57:53):
You read two more books.
Okay, give us the titles.
Speaker 2 (57:56):
Hunted by Darcy Coates and Rabbits by Terry
Miles.
Speaker 1 (57:59):
Nice Darcy Coates Iits by Terry Miles.
Nice Darcy Coates, I like her.
Yeah, yeah, so Little CrazyChildren.
James Renner, episode 24.
Please give us a downloadreview like subscribe, please.
That would help us.
Please email Crickets again, Ithink, yeah, you can also DM us.
(58:20):
We're both independently on.
Speaker 2 (58:23):
Instagram, as well as our….
If you're listening and youhave thoughts that you want to
share with us… yeah, do you?
Speaker 1 (58:31):
think this was a cult .
Yeah, are MLMs cults.
Speaker 2 (58:36):
And yeah, Don't come at me those Swifties.
I wasn't insulting you, what doyou think Like?
Is cult-like mentality takingover our society?
Maybe?
Speaker 1 (58:52):
Okay.
So yes, Is capitalism a cult?
We have to talk at least onceabout capitalism.
It's necessary for our our yeah, I don't know our minds or
something.
Okay, so, yes, please download,like, subscribe, leave a review
, follow us on instagram.
(59:14):
There's facebook page, email usand we will see you talk to you
next time.
Bye.
I'm Kiki and I'm Rachel, and this is Details Are
Sketchy A true crime podcast andwe are hopefully going to be
more with it.
Yep, right now.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
We've been out in the sun for like two and a half
hours, so yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
My battery wouldn't start, and so we were waiting
for the AAA folk to come.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Apparently, it's been a busy day, it was almost like
an episode of Better Call Saul.
We would have had to crawlthrough the desert on our hands
and knees.
No, we were in the city.
I'm just kidding about that one.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
It felt like it.
I was ready to hitchhike home.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
It did feel like it.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Yeah, alright, so Rachel's got the missing person
today and then I got the maincase and then Rachel will fill
in the details after my maincase and then, as always, we'll
maybe gossip a little.
I don't know if we have thatmuch to talk about.
I didn't do anything.
(00:59):
I've been reading some books.
Okay, good, you'll havesomething to talk about.
I can bitch about the vet foran hour, or not the vet.
The vet was perfect, it's thecat that wasn't.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
It's the capitalism.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Which is not the vet's fault, but we'll talk
about that later.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Oh, Jesus Christ.
Yeah, you reminded me of Bill.
We'll talk about that later.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Yep, okay, hold our complaints until capitalism,
until the end of the true crimediscussion.
Okay, alright.
So my missing person is arunaway juvenile.
I'm not sure if I'm saying hisname right, maybe McKay Sands.
It's spelled M-E-H-K-I and thelast name is S-A-E-N-Z.
(01:47):
His age is 16, male.
He's African American, hair isblack, eyes are brown, he's got
locks in the picture.
Height is 5'7", weight, 150pounds, and he was last seen
wearing a tank top and khakipants.
(02:08):
That's so descriptive thatcould be anybody.
Mechie was last seen on 8-24 inthe afternoon leaving his
residence on foot in the area400 South Dobson Road in Mesa,
arizona.
Ooh, that's fucking hot.
Oh yeah, hotter than here.
(02:31):
Yeah, yeah, it is, and it'spretty fucking hot out here, so
hope you're okay.
So he has not been seen orheard from since, and so they're
asking you to contact the MesaPD if you have any information
regarding this investigation.
And I have a little bit moreinformation about his
(02:54):
disappearance after our case.
So there's a nice picture ofhim.
He looks like a happy young manand hopefully he's okay.
Yeah, so it's like I said, it'sreally hot in arizona, so maybe
he's just staying with a friendor something.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Let's hope so.
Okay, so my case is on thedeaths of three people in
outside sed, Arizona and theSweat Lodges about 15 years ago.
I'll get their names in aminute.
The perpetrator was James Ray.
(03:36):
Yeah, and we'll talk about whyhe's annoying in a minute.
We're going to start off inSedona.
We're going to start off inSedona.
According to the Sedona'sTourism Bureau, the city has a
worldwide reputation as aspiritual mecca and energy
hotspot.
There's a whole section on.
They use the term vortexes, butI believe the actual
(03:57):
pronunciation should be vortices.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
I follow this essential oil brand and they
have really nice essential oils.
They use some artists anddistillers and stuff like that.
So if you're into nice smellysmells, then they have some
really good essential oils.
But they have a pretty crunchyroll angle about it and, yeah,
(04:22):
like white granola type of newagey type stuff.
Yeah, very much so.
So when you said that it was aspiritual mecca, I immediately
thought about that.
Yeah, because they're likechakra alignment, all this stuff
.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Yeah, yeah you like respectfully y'all are super
white yeah just wait.
Okay, so there's a whole sectionon vortices.
Apparently, there are numeroustypes and a vortex site, in case
you don't know, are enhancedenergy locations that facilitate
prayer, meditation, mind-bodyhealing and exploring your
(05:04):
relationship with your soul andthe divine.
The Sedona vortices are thoughtto be swirling centers of
energy that are conducive tohealing, meditation and
self-exploration.
These are places where theearth seems especially alive
with energy, and the four bestknown are found at Airport, mesa
(05:24):
, cathedral, rock, bell Rock,and I believe it's pronounced
Boynton Canyon, b-o-y-n-t-o-n.
So anyway, that's kind of inthe area of where this takes
place.
So between Sedona andCottonwood is Angel Valley,
where people go on spiritualretreats.
(05:45):
On October 8, 2009, there was a911 call for emergency
responders to go to Angel ValleyRetreat Center.
There were multiple people whoneeded help.
Deputy Craig Bullen said hethought it was a mass suicide at
first because he had never hada call where that many people
(06:08):
needed assistance and, given thereputation of I probably right
some cults, I was.
I immediately would also thinkthat yeah, I would have
immediately thought back toheaven's gate.
Yep, so, um, he said that hearrived.
There were about 50 to 60people milling around, the fire
(06:28):
department was working on some,there were people lying down on
the ground also waiting to beworked on, and a helicopter had
already landed and another onewas waiting to land.
Ross Dixon was the firstdetective on the scene and he
could see a large dome coveredin tarps which would be the
(06:51):
sweat lodge.
He said he saw women with theirheads shaved walking around in
a daze, so he also initiallythought that it had to be some
kind of cult.
Yeah, yeah, I thought of what'sthat one that makes them shave
their heads in California?
Is that Sinon?
Speaker 2 (07:10):
You would know better than me.
You are the cult expert.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Resident cult expert.
I wouldn't say I'm an expert Iwould.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Of the two of us, you are the resident cult expert.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Okay, I will take the title.
He was told that several peoplewere in the hospital and three
people had died.
The three people were liznewman, 40, james shore, 40 and
kirby brown, 38, and that itinvolved a sweat lodge.
It was a representative of ourage range.
(07:42):
Yes, I know.
Yeah, two of them are my age.
It's depressing.
A sweat lodge is a low,dome-shaped or oblong hut made
from natural materials that isused for ceremonies that involve
containing steam.
They are generally part of thespiritual practices of some
(08:03):
indigenous and Native Americangroups.
In this particular sweat lodge,according to the practitioners,
there were heat rocks in themiddle of it and then they would
pour water over them to releasethe heat, and this is somehow
supposed to enlighten the peoplein the sweat lodge.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Are there drugs in the steam?
Speaker 1 (08:25):
We'll get there.
It was the final event of thespiritual warrior retreat.
I'll talk about that in asecond.
So the investigation began withDiskin interviewing everybody
he could find.
He started with the man whogenerally facilitated heating
the rocks, or I guess he washeating the rocks this time.
I couldn't really understandwhat he said.
(08:45):
The man said that he worked atangel valley and had conducted
several sweat lodges for severaldifferent groups, and the
leader of this particular groupwas a man named james ray.
So let's talk about him for abit.
James ray was something of acelebrity at the time.
He was passed off, or passedhimself off, as a self-help guru
(09:07):
.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
He was involved with the film the Secret.
Do you remember that?
No, okay, we'll talk about itin a second, which in itself was
a self-help phenomenon.
Dvd sales in the US alonereached $65 million, and I
remember when this thing cameout I didn't at the time
actually know it was like a DVDthing, because there was a book
(09:32):
that went with it and I workedat the used bookstore and so
that book would come in and goout all the time during that.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Maybe I vaguely, like I remember different, like
self-help, like crazes, yeah,but I largely ignored them
because I was like this is allbullshit I don't think you could
.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
You may not know of it, but I know you've seen the
book.
It's still being sold and theyjust had it front and center at
barnes and noble.
Not too long.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Of course they did yeah okay, so anyway, let's see.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Uh, so, for those of you that don't know what the
secret is, or if you need arefresher, it is based on the
law of attraction.
Essentially, your thoughtsdictate reality.
Now, that concept is still partof the self-help genre, I think
.
Sometimes the law of attractiongets called manifestation or
(10:23):
manifesting Very similar ideas.
Okay, so the secret is whatmade James Ray famous.
Now, I want to point out thathe did not write it or
officially come up with it.
He was just one of the peoplewho were part of it.
So Melissa Phillips was afollower of James Ray.
(10:44):
Lisa Phillips was a follower ofJames Ray.
She said she saw him first onthe Secret and then on both
Oprah and Larry King and, forthose of you who are young, out
in the audience back in 2009,.
That was like that made you theit person if you were on Oprah
and Larry King.
She believed that he must besomething pretty great if he was
(11:10):
on those shows.
So at the time, she wasdivorced and her parents had
just passed away and she beganto feel like she wanted more
from life, and James Raypromised that if people went
through his course, he wouldhelp them change their lives.
She said she really believedwhat he said was true and that
her life would change.
Connie Joy, another follower,said she had also seen him on
(11:31):
the Secret.
She and her husband had wantedto expand their spiritual
experience.
She said he was very personable, very charismatic, two very big
red flags and that he couldread people.
Well, I would think, right,yeah, uh, maybe not, maybe that
maybe those are just beige flags.
(11:52):
He would say, now, this is abig red flag.
Anybody who calls themselveskahuna and they are not hawaiian
is a fucking asshole that's notgood.
um, he said that he was trainedin Hawaiian spiritual practices.
Well, that's what I'm sayingAll of this bullshit.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
It's all based on cultural appropriation.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
Yeah.
So he said he was trained inHawaiian spiritual practices,
that he was a shaman and trainedby Native Americans to run a
sweat lodge.
So they thought, because he hadall of this experience and all
this training, that he was worththe money he charged.
And I will get to the money ina second.
So the core of James Ray'steaching is that you can control
(12:35):
your destiny and that he canshow you how to do that.
He had what he called thejourney of Power.
It was constructed like apyramid.
It was five main events, endingin Spiritual Warrior.
Each event got more and moreexpensive, from the very first
free event to the $10,000Spiritual Warrior event which
(12:59):
was the ending.
Of course it's not going to bethe actual ending.
I'm sure he had something elseto sell them.
There's no way.
There's just an end.
The very first course on thepyramid was called the harmonic
wealth weekend.
So this is again all based onmanifesting wealth, right, uh.
(13:21):
Then creating absolute wealth.
Then practical mysticism, whichwhen connie went said, she said
it was in tahoe and um, thatwas the one where you did the
fire walking exercises right.
Then you had modern magic andthen the final one was spiritual
warrior.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
What's the difference between modern magic and like
ancient magic?
I don't know Is that the othercategory of magic?
Speaker 1 (13:50):
I don't know the events were programming people
to accept the instructions ofJames Ray, even if he was doing
so, even if doing so waspersonally detrimental.
And that's exactly it.
It's all conditioning rightFrom the very first go.
So each event had a physicalchallenge, like breaking boards
(14:12):
or bricks with your handswalking over hot coals, putting
your hand into an aquarium ofsnakes swinging through trees.
He was essentially simulatinghaving a spiritual breakthrough
by bringing people to the edgeof what they could handle
physically.
So another way of saying thatis he basically caused a
(14:36):
breakdown and called it abreakthrough, a spiritual
breakthrough.
Right, connie said thateveryone would say things like,
no, I can't do that, I can'twalk on hot coals.
And then he would say, yes, youcan, you can do it.
And then you would do it andyou'd realize that you were
wrong.
So again, in other words, he'dmake you believe that his
(15:00):
judgment was better than yours.
So conditioning, melissa said.
He made himself sound very wiseand authoritative, so she
really didn't question him.
Her very first event was in 2007in Las Vegas.
She said the event had about 12, sorry, 2,000 people.
It was three days.
(15:21):
There was lots of music, brightlights and a lot of activity
you would journal and get intogroups and you would talk, which
I don't know sounds like anightmare to me.
You would be surrounded byenthusiastic people who were all
happy to be there.
She said, doing all thosechallenges were thrilling and
addictive and if you led a quiet, boring life, then you felt
(15:44):
empowered because you didsomething you didn't think you
could do.
She said quote there was agreat fear that you would
disappoint him if you weren'table to accomplish things and
you didn't want to be singledout.
End quote.
So, in other words, I think hewould probably embarrass you or
shame you in front of everybody.
Group shaming is such a greattactic for a cult.
(16:08):
Right, according to herspiritual warrior, was a
spiritual endeavor so thatattendees could get in touch
with who they are and whatmatters.
According to his teachings, youare either a placeholder in
life or you're growing.
And if you're not doing thingsthat are scaring you a bit or
(16:29):
challenging you or pushing yououtside of your comfort zone,
then you are not growing.
And if you're not growing, thenyou're a placeholder.
So that's the mindset of thepeople who are in that sweat
lodge.
Right, you've just paid $10,000.
You've already done a weekworth of shit.
(16:50):
You've probably shaved yourhair.
You don't want to be shamed,you don't want to be a
placeholder, you don't believein yourself anymore because he's
made you believe that hisjudgment is better, right?
So Diskin said that James RaySounds about religion.
Well, yeah, it's a.
(17:10):
Yeah, it's, it's a it's it'sreligious cult in self-help.
Yes, uh, what do you want tocall it?
Clothing?
it's all the same genre yeah,it's just that some are a little
more benign than others.
I know you don't agree with me,but I I mean more in the terms
(17:30):
of self-help, like I mean.
There there's the very basicthings that are good, things
like just reading like a generic, whatever self-help book.
That's a little bit different,yeah, although probably a waste
of money yeah, althoughsometimes you know I'm I'm not a
big self-help person, but Ihave done a little bit of it,
mainly because I get told to doit by not my current therapist
(17:53):
but former ones better and shitlike that.
Then I guess it's not well, it'snot just about feeling better,
but sometimes you don't thinkabout the simplest things making
a big difference, right.
Like you don't think about whata things making a big
difference right, that's true.
Like you don't think about whata difference making your bed
will make in your day, you know.
Or just getting up and brushingyour teeth, right?
(18:14):
Yeah, doing a small habit canchange your life significantly.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Sometimes you just need somebody else to tell you
that I think Katie needs towrite a self-help book, you know
what I probably could write?
Speaker 1 (18:26):
a pretty good one.
Yeah, that's true, you wouldmake a lot of money.
There you go.
I'd have to lie about mycredentials, though Rocket to
the stars, just like what's herface.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
I already forgot her name Beatrix.
Beatrice, no.
Who wrote the Glass Alice book?
Beatrice Sparks, sparks, yes.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Yeah, I don't want to be that horrible person.
Yeah, no.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
No, but I'm saying she lied about her credentials.
Oh yes, yes, to get ahead, yeah, and write whatever nonsense
she cared to.
At least the nonsense you wouldwrite would be benign yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Make your bed.
People Just make your bed.
Yeah, I say that having notmade my bed in a few days, but I
mean, it really does.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
You know, just like it is nice when you make your
bed and it's like ah.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
Sometimes, when you're depressed and just
forcing yourself out of bed,even though it feels like
climbing Everest, makes a hugedifference in your day.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
In my house.
If I'm like I'm going to likelie down on my bed and like
whatever, play on my phone orsomething, then it's like
inevitable.
My kids come and they pile onthe bed with me and then it's
not so relaxing anymore.
It's like kid fight, play partyRight.
(19:54):
Like they start having anargument like right there.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
So we're going back to Diskin.
I forgot to say at the top ofthis that I got pretty much all
of this from People InvestigatesCults, an episode from that
short-lived series.
Unfortunately, they didn't domore than that, which is
unfortunate.
Yeah, that is unfortunate.
So Diskin said that James Raywas the target of the
(20:25):
investigation early on becausehe was the one leading the sweat
lodge early on.
Because he was the one leadingthe sweat lodge.
So I guess that means that guythat they originally talked to.
I guess, now that I'm thinkingabout it, that was the guy that
was heating the rocks outside ofthe sweat lodge and then james
ray was inside the sweat lodge.
Okay, so james ray waspositioned right next to the
door or flap.
(20:46):
He would call for more rocksand the flap would open and the
rocks would be brought in andwater poured on them, which
would then create the steam.
Most groups at these lodgeswould do four rounds, not seven
or eight like James Ray did.
Usually with other groups.
It was very laid back.
(21:06):
If you needed a break, youcould leave and come back back.
If you needed a break, youcould leave and come back.
But when it came to james ray'slodges, when people needed to
leave.
He would tell them things likeyou're better than that, you
need to stay in.
We'll get to more of that in asecond.
Yeah, yeah, it's.
Oh, my god, this whole thingsounds like a terrible nightmare
.
I hate being hot right and thenbeing in a sweat lodge and
(21:28):
humid.
That's the worst In Arizona why?
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Yeah, I don't think that.
I mean, I don't think I wouldmake a very good cult member
anyway, no, no.
But I especially wouldn't makea very good cult member if
people made me hot and if peopletry to shame me publicly then I
would just like explode ontheir ass, right?
Speaker 1 (21:55):
I don't think I would explode, but I would.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
I would probably sit there politely and take it and
then leave and never go back Iwould be like who the fuck are
you like, yeah, like likemichael skype to to toby's.
Like who do you think you are?
What gives you the right?
Only the difference is Toby isjust sitting there, very benign
and passively.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
Well, you are a bigger, well, a more forceful
person than I am, which isprobably a good thing.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
It's probably a good thing person than I am, which is
probably a good thing.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
It's probably a good thing.
I'm more passive, but I don'tthink I'd make a good cult
member either, because one I'dbe like you want how much money
for that?
Right, no, thank you.
And second, I would be like I'mnot lazy, but I do have chronic
depression, right, well, I get,I don't know if they've
(22:51):
actually labeled it chronic, butI've had lifelong depression.
I've been depressed since I was10, basically, and I also have
tremendous anxiety, and both ofthose things lend to not
laziness, but to me not beingable to function the way that a
cult would need me or require meto function Like just listening
(23:15):
to some of these things noteven for this one, but to any
cult where they're like, likeScientology, you need to go in
and get a reading or whatever.
I feel like that's way too muchfucking work.
I'm not doing that.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Yeah, yeah, same.
But like with executivedysfunction, like yeah, somebody
was like, yeah, exactly.
Like I can barely, like I can'teven keep on top of making my
appointments and shit, like Iwould definitely not go in and
make a reading.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
We would be cult failures.
Rachel, They'd ask us politelyto leave.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
I mean, I don't think Scientologists want me anyways,
because don't you have to likepay a bunch of money and stuff
like that and I don't have anymoney?
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Yeah, well, they get you in for free.
That's what most of these do.
They get you in for free, theydo whatever, give you a test or
whatever, or they love bomb youor whatever their tactic is, and
then they basically convinceyou that you need this in order
to be quote-unquote fixed.
(24:15):
Yeah, so I used to back when Iwas in journalism school um,
scientology, at least the one inalbuquerque, I don't know if
it's still there, but it wasthat they had an online test you
could take and I wanted to do astory on scientology.
I didn't really understandanything about it was like
before all this stuff came out,yeah, and I kind I wanted to do
a story on Scientology.
I didn't really understandanything about it.
It was like before all thisstuff came out and I kind of
wanted to do a story on itbecause I thought it was kind of
(24:36):
fascinating and they had anonline test, and so I took the
test.
I took it like five times underfive different names and five
different email addresses, andit didn't matter what answer I
gave.
Something was always wrong withme that needed to be, of course
, fixed and could be fixed if Iwent in and then they would talk
(24:59):
to me, which then would lead toa lot of money with you, then
how are they going to get you inso they can exactly?
Speaker 2 (25:05):
yeah, I mean, isn't that the way of all religion too
?
They're like something's wrongwith you and you need to fix it.
Yeah, it's true, it's kind ofthe premise of most religions.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
It's kind of the premise of our society.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
It's true, it is the premise of our society.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Okay, so back to our Back to crime.
Back to crime.
So Diskin said that James Raywas the target of the.
Oh, we already did that.
So Melissa was at the SpiritWarrior event and she said that
the scene looked like a war zoneand people were moaning and
(25:45):
they couldn't walk.
People were crawling andstumbling out of the tent.
She said people asked James Ray, what should we do?
And he replied how would I know?
I'm not a nurse.
And then walked off.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
What an asshole.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Oh, oh, it gets worse .
I'm sure it does.
So the investigators can't findhim, so they go to his
assistant who tells them he'sback in his bungalow.
He answers the door, in hisboxers eating a sandwich.
Deputy Bolin said you need toget out there, your people need
you.
You need to go talk to theinvestigators.
(26:21):
James Ray apparently didn'tlike being bothered and asked
why his assistant couldn't takecare of it.
The detective tried talking tohim, uh, or I guess, eventually
put on pants and went out and um, the investigator tried talking
to him on pants.
yeah, yeah, uh tried talking tohim and he lawyered up right
(26:42):
away.
No surprise, uh, and they lethim go because at that point the
only thing he was reallyguilting of was being an
absolute piece of shit, rightand um, he actually, I guess,
left the scene at that point,like completely left, like not
left the bungalow and andeverything.
Okay, just to illustrate thepiece of shit point that I was
(27:05):
making kirby brown's mom so shewas one of the the dead said
that she received a call fromJames Ray after the death of
Kirby and he asked how she wasand she replied I'm in shock.
And he replied quote I am too.
This is the most horrific thingthat has ever happened to me in
(27:25):
my life.
Yeah, what a way to make itabout you, buddy.
Indeed, you're calling a motherwho just lost her daughter and
you're complaining, obviouslylike I don't know, not to
psychoanalyze, but obviously Iam gonna psychoanalyze.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Cult leaders are all narcissists.
So like I like.
How else are you gonna thinkthat this is okay, right?
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Yeah, yeah.
So a few hours later she got acall.
Kirby's mom got a call fromKirby's roommate at the retreat.
So, in contrast to James Ray,the roommate said that started
(28:11):
to cry and said that she was sosorry that she couldn't save her
.
Yeah, that that's theappropriate response, not making
it about yourself.
Yeah, okay.
Diskin said that there were somany people and so many factors
that could determine if theincident was just a terrible
accident or an actual crime.
Some factors were things likewas there a toxin involved?
(28:32):
Was it a ritual where somethingwas ingested that could have
caused the deaths?
So they took samples from allover the sweat lodge to be
tested.
Ultimately, the forensic andchemical tests were negative for
everything they could think of.
It was determined that thedeaths were caused by a
combination of things Poorcirculation and no airflow, and
(28:55):
the heat.
The evidence also showed thatthe people in the lodge showing
heat-related illnesses were notphysically capable or mentally
capable to leave, I bet.
So it was clear that theincident was a crime, but was it
(29:16):
manslaughter or negligenthomicide?
Now, the difference between thetwo is in the mindset of the
person, so in this case, jamesRay's mindset.
So did he know that peoplecould die, or did he fail to
perceive that people could die?
Investigators find out thatJames Ray had been alerted to
(29:38):
the fact that Kirby wasunconscious, having trouble
breathing, and that he was verydismissive about it.
They know that it could be thatmaybe he didn't fully hear or
couldn't understand or believedthat she was okay.
In other words, they gave himkind of the benefit of the doubt
.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Yeah, a big fucking benefit of the doubt.
Well, hold on.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
So they decided to do a full investigation into his
past.
Right, I mean, they got to dothat because the defense
attorney could make all of thosearguments.
So they have to prove thatthose things are not true.
So they have to prove thatthose things are not true.
So they analyzed other eventsand interviewed participants of
those events to find out whattypes of safety measures he had
(30:20):
in place for the higher riskactivities that he would do.
It became evident that he wascareless in the way that he did
the things.
People had broken hands,someone had almost lost their
eye, had it poked out duringsomething called the arrow break
exercise I assume that's whereyou try to break an arrow.
(30:41):
He never had paramedicsstanding by or even a fire truck
waiting outside.
He would just sweep theseincidences under the rug.
If somebody was hurt, theywould be ushered off to the side
so that it wouldn't create ascene and people wouldn't know.
They also found that he had ahistory of running those extreme
(31:04):
sweat lodges and again in caseyou forgot, his were extreme.
Most of the time you do likefour rounds.
He did seven or eight in hislodges even four rounds sounds
like a lot to me, yeah and alsoin generally speaking, when you
do sweat lodges, you can leaveany round of a sweat to be
honest, um, generally, even withthose rounds, you can leave at
(31:28):
any time and come back if youwant to.
You couldn't do that in a JamesRay Lodge.
I mean you could, but you wouldbe shamed.
In 2005, a man had aheat-related illness in one of
his sweat lodges and had to betransported to a hospital.
Apparently, james Ray had beenfurious about the fact that the
(31:50):
man had been taken to thehospital in an ambulance.
I assume it was in an ambulance, maybe they just did it in a
car.
The sweat lodges actuallyapparently got more extreme
every year.
So, connie, if you remember herI think I forgot to mention she
and her husband were part ofthis and she and her husband
were part of this.
They had been.
She said that they had been tosomething like I forget if it
(32:12):
was 27 or 37 of James Ray'sevents in like three years.
So they were devotees.
So she said, whenever a groupof them would get nervous about
the safety of the exercises thatJames Ray would ask them to do,
they would tell each other he'sa businessman, he wouldn't ask
us to do anything that wasdangerous because we could get
(32:33):
hurt and that would be bad forbusiness.
But it became more of aquestion towards the end of
doing those events with him.
So she and her husbandeventually leave, and I'll get
to that in a second.
So in the episode she goes onto talk about her own experience
in a sweat lodge during aspiritual warrior event in 2007.
(32:54):
So she said she was quote onthe edge of the pit.
Steam just comes up, it'ssearing your arms, it's searing
your legs.
You can't breathe and I'mthinking, ok, the second that
gate opens, I'm out of here.
That gate opens, I'm out ofhere.
So the thing opens and I go tostand up and I realize I can't
stand.
I'm doing this crab walk.
(33:14):
Finally I get up and I'mhanging onto some of the
branches inside and behind mesomebody else came up who's also
going to get out, and they wereactually strong enough to grab
the two people that were infront of them and and just
pushed them forward, whichpushed me forward and we just
fell out.
People are clearly not okay.
(33:35):
I don't need a 911 call, butI'm not great.
But there were people there whowere seriously not good and I
kept saying people are reallybad, we need to call somebody,
and one of the volunteers saidno, this happens every year,
it's okay.
She told me you're not allowedto call 911.
They did back in 2005 and itreally ticked him off and we're
not allowed.
(33:55):
End quote.
After that, connie left JamesRay International and did not
attend the Spiritual Warrior in2009.
So, according to Diskin, jamesRay was running the sweat lodge
again, but there was no evidencethat he would physically stop
someone from leaving, but hewould convince them to stay
(34:18):
inside even though they were indistress.
They want to take a look.
The police want to take a lookat manuals and things like that
to see what the safetyprocedures were.
They want to see if he deviatedin any way from his own
policies on how he was supposedto run the sweat lodge.
The investigators get a warrantfor his office in Carlsbad,
(34:40):
california.
They couldn't find any materialthat would leave them to
believe that he had any kind oftraining in how to run a sweat
lodge.
So, in other words, he liedabout being trained by Native
Americans, right.
Another thing is that he didn'tgive refunds, so he would claim
.
So what he would do is in orderto get people excited about
(35:02):
spending the $10,000, is that hewould claim that no one asked
for a refund.
Right's how good it was, that'show good the program was, but
obviously that's not exactlytrue.
They didn't ask for refundsbecause james ray didn't give
refunds.
So people felt compelled to goand participate.
(35:23):
Right, you're spending tenthousand dollars.
That's a lot of fucking money.
Yeah, and that was the case forJames Shore.
He was one of the dead.
He didn't want to go, but hefelt he would waste the $10,000
if he didn't.
He had already paid it.
Melissa describes this thespiritual warrior event.
(35:45):
So she had gone to thisweek-long spiritual warrior
event in 2009.
So she was.
She is a witness to thisweek-long Spiritual Warrior
event in 2009,.
So she was a witness to this.
So she said day one,participants were given the
quote opportunity to let go ofvanity.
He wanted people to shave offtheir hair.
She said, quote he was veryemphatic that we should do
(36:08):
everything in our power to dowhat he suggested and told us he
was the guru, he was in charge,this was his event and if we
followed his direction, we wouldfind answers to life mysteries.
There were a few women whodecided not to shave off their
hair and they were pressured andridiculed end quote.
According to her, everyone wasexcited and nervous to go into
(36:32):
the sweat lodge.
She said that James Ray toldthem that it would feel like
they were going to die.
So this episode actually playeda recording of James Ray
describing what would go on inthe sweat lodge Also, I just
wanted to point this out becauseit made me think of it when I
saw it.
Everything except what actuallyhappened in the sweat lodge was
recorded.
(36:53):
Everything that week wasrecorded, which immediately
reminded me of Jim Jones andJonestown.
He recorded everything, yeah,and also made me think of Nixon,
because Nixon recordedeverything too.
Anyway, that was just a thoughtthat popped into my head.
So he recorded everything.
In this recording he says quoteyou most likely will feel like
(37:15):
your skin is going to fall offyour body.
It's hot, hellacious hot.
But you see, the true spiritualwarrior has conquered death.
You just have to let go and sayif I'm going to die, it's okay.
End quote.
Melissa said on that dayeveryone went in and sat in a
circle facing the rock pit.
James Ray told them there wouldbe at least seven rounds.
(37:38):
They could not leave during around, but if they just could
not quote transcend and overcomeit, meaning their discomfort,
then they could leave when thegates or the flap was opened.
Melissa said that people werebecoming delirious and she
herself actually began feelingsick and dizzy so she left after
(38:02):
one of the rounds and got somewater, but she began to think
about the fact that she'd spent$10,000.
This was the last event.
It would be a waste to notcomplete it.
So she went back in.
She said that people kepttelling James Ray that Liz
needed help, but he said not toworry about it, that she knew
(38:25):
what she was doing because she'ddone it before she was.
I think had been part of thisfor three to four years and I
think she had gone to aspiritual warrior retreat before
.
People said many times thatKirby needed help, but James Ray
said that they would get to her.
At the end of the round JamesShore had actually dragged an
(38:45):
unconscious person out in frontof James Ray, then went back in.
I guess he hit his head.
I wasn't clear on that.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
He hit the person's head he was dragging.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
No, he hit his own head when he went back in, but
I'm not sure if that's actuallywhat they said or if I
misinterpreted what they said.
Anyway, he went over to helpKirby because he knew Kirby was
in distress, but both of themwere dead by the end of the
round.
James shore I'm sorry, notjames shore, james ray was
(39:18):
arrested for manslaughter.
The state apparently put on areally good case, they had all
the experts, etc.
But the jury was not allowed tohear about the previous
incidents at james ray eventsbecause of arizona rules of
evidence, rules 404 oh, arizona.
(39:38):
Well, a lot of states have it.
We, I think we have a similarone ourselves, which says quote
evidence of a person's characteris not admissible for the
purpose of proving an action ona particular occasion.
End quote.
Those incidents, of course,were important to understanding
not only James Ray's mindset butalso those of the participants
(40:01):
in the sweat lodge?
Speaker 2 (40:02):
How?
Is a person's character notsomething that you need to take
into account on whether or notthey're capable of malicious
intent.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
I think it's just over prejudicial to the
defendant.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
Maybe.
Yeah, no, I agree that that'san issue, but I'm saying, in the
case of like like violent or orendangerment through negligence
, that that kind of history isvery relevant to the case and
but could also be overlyprejudicial in fact it there's
(40:37):
usually like like evidence showthat that when there's like that
kind of pattern of of violenceand negligence, that it tends to
escalate I don't know, dude.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
I mean I'm not.
I'm not saying I agree with therule of evidence.
I agree with you, especially ina case like this, especially
when we get to the nextparagraph or two paragraphs.
So because of that rule, thejury didn't get to hear all that
stuff.
The defense only had twowitnesses.
(41:10):
James Ray didn't testify on hisbehalf and the defense said
their whole argument basicallywasn't really an argument.
They were basically justattacking the estate's case.
James Ray was found guilty of alesser charge and was given two
years in prison for the deathof each victim, for a total of
(41:32):
six years.
You want to get really mad.
The judge said that they couldrun concurrent, meaning he would
serve them all at the same time.
That's bullshit.
So he only had to serve twoyears for the deaths of three
(41:52):
people and I don't think he evenspent the full two years in
prison.
Yeah, I think it was close totwo years, but I think he got
out a few months early.
He was released in 2013.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
This is like what I'm saying.
Whether or not I don't know, Ithink it's violence, even though
it doesn't involve, like youknow, it's a kind of passive
violence.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
I'm not done yet you want to get even more mad?
Oh God, continue.
James Ray is back at theself-help guru stuff.
Oh no, he spun the story intohis own personal tragedy, jesus.
So the death of three peoplehad to happen so that he could
(42:39):
teach people how to overcome,come on adversity.
He just published a new bookthat came out in 2024, april of
this year.
Speaker 2 (42:49):
He does appearances uh, and I looked at it.
Take this guy seriously.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
I I looked at his website.
There's stuff on a whole bunchof different themes.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
I think he's got some stuff going with his wife and,
yeah, honestly it's gross I mean, I guess, I guess in a world
where people worship the groundthat trump walks on, I guess I'm
not really shocked no, I mean,look, I am all for people coming
(43:21):
out of prison and trying tomake something of themselves and
getting that chance, but itjust seems so gross and
disgusting.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
And then you're not allowed to have animals anymore.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
Yeah, Like, if you killed a bunch of people, like
doing this like health spa thing, like you should not be allowed
to do that anymore.
(43:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
So I do want to say that there is a documentary
about him that I think was putout by CNN.
I want to say it was CNN.
It was one of the newsorganizations.
I'm pretty sure it was CNN.
I know it wasn't Fox, it wasone of the other leaning ones.
Now I didn't get a chance towatch it.
I was planning on doing acompletely different case and
then I found out that one of ourfavorite podcasts literally
(44:14):
just did that case.
So I did this one.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
I have a question.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
Do you?
Speaker 2 (44:20):
think the publicity around this case has hurt or
helped his business.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
Well, I don't think most people even know about him
anymore.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
Wow, people do have very short memories.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
Yeah, this documentary.
I didn't get a chance to watchit, but he advertises it on his
website and that makes me wonderhow unbiased it actually is.
Like has CNN bought into hisbullshit, or is this guy
promoting it in the sense oflike even the bad stuff is good
(44:58):
publicity, or like to makehimself somehow look better?
Like look, I can take criticism, I don't know.
Question, although I think Iknow the answer for both of us.
Is James Ray a cult leader?
Speaker 2 (45:12):
Yes, why he convinced a bunch of people through
manipulation and tactics of likewhat's the word Withdrawal?
Like extreme states toinfluence their decisions and,
(45:36):
like I said earlier, to put themin a mental state where they're
very suggestible.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
Yes, so I wrote down mine.
I said I agree with theanti-cult activist and attorney,
jason Jones, who's part of thisepisode.
So I would say, yes, he is acult leader, but in a more
modern sense of the word.
Right, like most people, whenthey think cult leader, they
think communes or somethingalong those lines.
So in other words, these moremodern cults are more about
(46:08):
monetary transaction and lessabout that whole living
communally thing.
So who can afford to do that.
So in these modern cults, thesegurus, uh basically have adapted
this idea of let them live athome yeah you know, let them
keep their jobs.
(46:28):
But you take everything elseright because normally a cult
leader.
You got to leave your house andyou got to give up everything
and you got to give up your joband go work for the cult.
But this you get to know itthere.
I'm sorry that reminds me ofjesus but they take everything
(46:48):
else, especially their money,and according to jason jones,
it's actually a lot easier toget sucked in, and I would agree
with that if all they're askingof you easier, right, yeah?
Well, that's it.
If they're only asking you forsome money and they promise you
everything, that's easy.
(47:10):
Yeah, somehow you'll find themoney if you want it.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
Bad enough like losing, like leaving your home,
leaving your family and all that.
Speaker 1 (47:18):
Yeah, that's that's gonna be a lot harder to
convince.
That's a bigger ask yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
So yeah, I agree, that's more insidious, yes, far
more insidious.
I mean, all cults are prettyinsidious, but yeah yeah, just
in that like more subversivekind of sneaky way.
Yeah, that's what I'm sayingbecause it doesn't it.
Speaker 1 (47:39):
It doesn't it doesn't look like our idea of a cult.
It doesn't ring those alarmbells?
Speaker 2 (47:46):
No, it doesn't.
How's your feeling about MLMsas modern day cults?
Speaker 1 (47:53):
Oh, absolutely.
Well, look, here's the thing.
So have you read the bookCultish?
Nope, Okay.
So there's this book calledCultish it comes.
It's written by an academic I'mblanking on her name right now.
Her expertise is in linguisticsand things like that, and she
(48:14):
also has a podcast called, Ithink, cultish or is it a cult,
something like that.
Anyway, there are loads ofthings that feel cultish but
aren't necessarily a cult.
Now, mlms are one that it couldbe a cult, and I personally I
(48:36):
would say it's a cult, but it'salso not in the fullest
definition of cult.
Yeah, so it's more heavycultish, right, right?
So like she also talks aboutthings like that bicycle thingy,
now that's kind of slippingaway what?
(48:58):
do you call that?
I don't know.
Now it's peloton, but beforethat it was just cycling.
I think, yeah and um, beforethat, what was the one where you
were like flipping tires?
Speaker 2 (49:09):
oh, um, what is the name of that cross?
Speaker 1 (49:15):
fit cross fit.
Yeah, and the reason thatthey're cultish is because you
would get into these smallgroups or, like in cycling or in
Peloton, there would be afavorite leaders, right, and you
would be shamed if you missedone or if you needed to do
(49:37):
something and you couldn't makeit right.
So, that's a little bit cultish, but it's not a cult, but it
feels that way.
I don't think cycling as awhole is cult-ish, but there are
certainly elements within itthat lean towards the cult-ish
stuff.
Speaker 2 (49:53):
So would you say like , because I would say like you
know, that stuff is, like youknow, they're trends, they're
crazes, Are those things cultishTrans?
Speaker 1 (50:02):
and crazes.
I think it depends on thebehaviors of the people within
those things, right?
So, for example, one of themost Fandoms they can be.
They can be, I don't want toget yeah, they definitely can be
.
I don't want to get theSwifties on my ass, but some
elements within that.
Speaker 2 (50:23):
Yeah, the Swifties, the.
Speaker 1 (50:25):
Bayhive, yes, and also I mean even Harry Potter.
To an extent there are peoplewho get into that.
You know it's not everybody inthese groups, there are just
certain elements by some peoplethat kind of make it lean that
way.
But another point that sheactually made is like so some of
(50:50):
the things about one of thethings that makes a cult a cult
is basically word salad oraffirmations, but some really
good things.
Groups use affirmism, what'sthe word I'm trying to say,
affirmations, and and sometimesfeels like it's, but like like,
(51:11):
for example, she used, um, Ithink she used the example of
like those drives to raise moneyfor, like, breast cancer, right
, right, like they use thingsthat, taken out of context, are
kind of culty, you know, andactually somebody I think she
interviewed somebody who was incharge of those kind of things
(51:33):
and the lady was like, yeah,they're kind of culty, but you
know that's kind of works onpeople, right, and you kind of
need it.
So that's it.
My point, I think, was justthat, was just that like that's
cult-ish, but cult-ish doesn'tnecessarily mean bad.
Speaker 2 (51:47):
Was that about it for your story?
Speaker 1 (51:49):
That's totally it for my story.
Speaker 2 (51:52):
Do we want to talk about what we've been reading
and watching and all thosethings?
Sure.
Speaker 1 (51:58):
It's all you, oh, it's all me.
I, oh God those things.
Sure it's all you.
I, oh god.
Um, I didn't do anythingbecause, nice, first my poor cat
legit, my poor cat had to gointo the vet a couple of times
and it was a thing and um.
So they're just.
And on top of that, I havethree schools I teach in.
(52:20):
Two of them started last week,one started this week.
A couple of classes I nevertaught before, so I spent a lot
of time creating those, so Ijust didn't have the ability to,
or the time to do any reading.
Wow.
Speaker 2 (52:35):
I have pretty much abandoned not abandoned, but
this year I've read, I think,maybe one, maybe two physical
books and the rest have all beenaudiobooks.
Because I just like, like, whenI'm you know whatever, I'm
making dinner washing disheslike sweeping my floor.
Whatever I can listen to my book, yeah, and like, sometimes I'll
(52:58):
listen to music, likeespecially if I'm doing really
tedious chores, and sometimes Ineed music because, like it
gives me that oh, that littlelike dopamine, yeah, but like if
I'm just doing like stuff, that, yeah, then I usually listen to
my books and it helps pass thetime of doing those chores.
(53:20):
So let me see.
So I think the last book Italked about was Sand right by
Hugh Howey, and since then Iread the Death of Jane Lawrence
by Caitlin Starling, which wasnice.
I enjoyed it.
I didn't enjoy it as much asthe Luminous Dead, but that's
(53:43):
more because the Luminous Deadhas more like themes that I dig,
like being in like a cave, likebody horror, like I mean, this
did have some body horror aswell, certainly More sci-fi.
So that's why I just it's justlike more to my taste, yeah,
(54:05):
basically, but this was alsoquite good.
Yeah, but it's, like you know,more of like your gothic ghost
story type of stuff.
But I probably like that one,yeah, but it also does have
those same elements from theluminous dead, like
claustrophobia, likepsychological horror you don't
(54:26):
know exactly what's real andwhat's not body horror type of
things as well, and so, yeah, itwas quite enjoyable.
So for for like a ghost typestory, which usually aren't like
the highest on my list, um,yeah, I quite enjoyed it.
So, yeah, I think I I like theway that this author does
(54:49):
stories.
I also read the whole by.
I'm not sure if I'm saying thisright.
Hi, young pune, he's like aKorean author.
So, yeah, I thought it wasquite good.
Like the story kind of unfoldswith these nuances as you go
(55:10):
along For the length of the book.
It's got a lot of complexityand it touches on a lot of
things Misogyny, ableism and, Iguess, ageism a bit.
And just, yeah, as we learnabout this character, as
(55:35):
everything is going on and welearn more about him is going on
and we learn more about him.
Like, I don't want to give toomuch away, but something may be
bad, we're concerned mighthappen to him.
But as we learn more about thecharacter, maybe our perception
of him shifts a little bitinteresting as the story goes on
I I thought you were talkingabout.
Speaker 1 (55:56):
There's another book called the whole, but it's by a
japanese writer, hiroku oyamadaoh huh, which I think perhaps
you would like.
Maybe, um, but anyway, shewrote he, she, he, uh, the
author we'll go with.
The author wrote another bookthat I had spent months and
(56:19):
months and months looking forand I didn't find it until I
went to a Japanese bookstore inLittle Tokyo in LA called the
Factory, which I think maybe youmight also like, because I
think it's maybe satireSomething along those lines of
capitalism and working andthings like that.
Speaker 2 (56:42):
This one is about a man who wakes up from a horrible
car accident completelyparalyzed.
His wife is dead and when he'sreleased from the hospital, he's
being cared for by hismother-in-law for by his, his
(57:04):
mother-in-law and like it startsout with like a, you know, very
good relationship.
And as they go on the, therelationship seems to devolve
and she starts digging a gianthole in his garden.
yeah, so it's yeah that soundsand it has those also those
elements of claustrophobia,right, body horror, like he's
(57:26):
trapped in his own body.
Yeah, so Interesting.
Speaker 1 (57:31):
Yeah, I hate to cut this short, but my car is ready.
Oh nice, but hold on.
Before we do that, we got toremember.
Next episode episode 24, is ourbook, which is Little Crazy
Children by James Renner.
I read two more books.
(57:53):
You read two more books.
Okay, give us the titles.
Speaker 2 (57:56):
Hunted by Darcy Coates and Rabbits by Terry
Miles.
Speaker 1 (57:59):
Nice Darcy Coates Iits by Terry Miles.
Nice Darcy Coates, I like her.
Yeah, yeah, so Little CrazyChildren.
James Renner, episode 24.
Please give us a downloadreview like subscribe, please.
That would help us.
Please email Crickets again, Ithink, yeah, you can also DM us.
(58:20):
We're both independently on.
Speaker 2 (58:23):
Instagram, as well as our….
If you're listening and youhave thoughts that you want to
share with us… yeah, do you?
Speaker 1 (58:31):
think this was a cult .
Yeah, are MLMs cults.
Speaker 2 (58:36):
And yeah, Don't come at me those Swifties.
I wasn't insulting you, what doyou think Like?
Is cult-like mentality takingover our society?
Maybe?
Speaker 1 (58:52):
Okay.
So yes, Is capitalism a cult?
We have to talk at least onceabout capitalism.
It's necessary for our our yeah, I don't know our minds or
something.
Okay, so, yes, please download,like, subscribe, leave a review
, follow us on instagram.
(59:14):
There's facebook page, email usand we will see you talk to you
next time.
Bye.
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