Spy v Spy? The Mysterious Life and Death of "Jennifer Fairgate"

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
We have a missing person today.
Wait, let's do our intro.
Oh yeah, Okay, I'm Kiki and I'mRachel, and this is Details Are
Sketchy A true crime podcast,and this is episode thirty
Something, something, Five.
I think it's an episode.

(00:23):
It is an episode.
It is an episode, and it isRachel's turn to do the main
case and my turn to do a missingperson, and I actually have one
today.
The missing person is so.
It's either Ashley Loring HeavyRunner or Ashley Heavy Runner
Loring, it depends on the source.

(00:43):
She was born November 23rd 1996.
She has dark hair.
At the time of herdisappearance, she weighed about
90 pounds.
Her place of birth was Browning, Montana.
She's 5'2" female and she is aNative American.
I believe Blackfoot, I believeBlackfoot and she has a scar in

(01:06):
the shape of a checkmark on thetop of one ofragate quote
unquote.
Jennifer Farragate, though, isan alias.

Speaker 2 (01:33):
So that's kind of a spoiler, but not really so.
Let me open my notes, thatmight help.
So this case takes place in1995.
Takes place in 1995.
So on June 3rd 1995, a womanwas found dead in her hotel room
in Oslo, Norway, under suchstrange conditions and

(01:54):
circumstances that the cause andcondition of her death, and
even the question of who she was, remains a mystery to this day.
This case was featured on theNetflix series Unsolved
Mysteries that aired on October19, 2020.
Season two, episode two, titledA Death in Oslo, which is kind

(02:16):
of a lackluster name in myopinion, especially for what a
gripping, cold case.
And honestly, the episode couldhave gone harder on this case,
because when you watch theepisode it is really good.
But then there's even moreinteresting details that were
not included.
I'm not sure why, maybe justfor lack of time, but it did

(02:39):
seem like.
I don't know.
We'll kind of get into it, butthey went down some rabbit holes
that they could have filledwith even more interesting
things than what they did, Ithink.
Okay, the woman in question hasthe name, or rather the alias of
Jennifer Fairgate or Furgate.
However, as I have justdisclosed, that was not her

(03:03):
actual name.
However, as I have justdisclosed, that was not her
actual name and, despite thepublicity of the case and the
publicized drawings anddescriptions of her, as well as
crime scene photos, I cannottalk today of the recently
deceased the recently deceasedno one has ever come forward to

(03:24):
claim her as family or with anyinformation really regarding her
to her identity, so we're allkind of left to speculate.
Now, Jennifer Fairgate,sometimes also called the Oslo
woman, even though she's notfrom Oslo, first traceable
information or point where sheappeared on the public record

(03:47):
was on May 22, 1995, when she orpresumably it was her called
the reception desk of theRadisson Blue Hotel, also called
the Oslo Plaza Hotel, which isone of the fanciest hotels in
Oslo, and it was Norway's firstskyscraper.

(04:08):
It remains the second tallestbuilding in Norway to this day.
The hotel opened in March of1990, and the grand opening
ceremony was conducted by theKing of Norway himself, King
Olaf V.
The Plaza Hotel was remodeledlater, in 2012, but then and now
it was considered an ultraluxury hotel.

(04:30):
As I said in the Netflixdocumentary, this was a place
where kings and queens,politicians, celebrities, the
ultra rich would stay.

Speaker 1 (04:40):
So super fancy yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:42):
There is a footbridge between the hotel and the Oslo
Spectrum Arena, which hostsmajor concerts and events,
including hosting the Eurovisionin 1996.
The hotel is also withinwalking distance of the Royal
Palace and the National GalleryMuseum, which features Norway's
largest exhibition of art.

(05:06):
So, all in all, the Plaza Hotelwould be the place to be if you
are a wealthy tourist or maybewell-to-do business person with
lots of cash to spare whenvisiting Oslo.
Now, during this initial callto the plaza, the woman who
identified herself as JenniferFairgate spoke in English and

(05:29):
she booked a reservation at thehotel.
We don't know when the initialdate she booked were, because
nine days later she called again, on May 31st, and she told the
front desk that her plans hadchanged and that she planned on
checking in that same evening,so presumably earlier than what

(05:51):
she had previously scheduled.
So, whatever her previous planswere now, she wanted to check
in on that same day that she wascalling, may 31st, and check
out on Friday two days later, onJune 2nd.
On this call, however, jenniferFairgate spoke fluent German,
with what the front desk clerkreported was an East German

(06:13):
accent or possibly an EastGerman dialect.
She also said she would bechecking in with another person,
a man named Lois Fairgate.
She said that they were amarried couple from Belgium.
Jennifer Fairgate did arrive tocheck into the hotel at around
10 40 that evening, and she wasdescribed as having blue eyes,

(06:40):
close cropped, dark hair andbeing a small, petite woman who
was wearing a long black leatherjacket.
She arrived in an extremelybusy time for the hotel because
three flights had just come inin Oslo and so a ton of new
guests had been brought over tothe hotel, so there were a crowd

(07:01):
of guests that were all linedup to check in.
The receptionist who checkedJennifer in reported that it was
an all-hands-on-deck situation,with everyone on shift for
reception working to check inguests, and that he personally
had a long line keeping him busy.
Two different employees werecalled seeing Jennifer Fairgate

(07:21):
at the time she checked in, butthey each gave somewhat
conflicting accounts, so it'sdifficult to know what exactly
happened or how it went down.
The receptionist who checkedJennifer in she had to fill in a

(07:48):
form when she checked in,giving information such as her
address, her phone number, acredit card to keep on file, her
passport number and so forth.
The paperwork says on itJennifer and Louis Fairgate.
However, those names werepre-typed out from the
information that she hadpreviously given over the phone,

(08:09):
so it doesn't really give anindication whether she was
checking in with another personor not.
What we do know is that shesigned her own name.
As notice that she signed herown name as Fargate
F-E-R-G-A-T-E instead of FargateF-A-I-R-G-A-T-E that she had

(08:37):
given over the phone, and shegave a birthday of August 23rd
1973, and a Belgian address in atown called Verlaine, which
would later turn out that thetown exists and the street name
that she gave was a real streetor close enough to a real street
.
She gave the name of the streetas Rue de la Stade and there is

(08:57):
a street called Rue de laStation or Station, but she gave
a house number 143, whichturned out to definitely not
exist, as the house numbers onthat street only go up to 98.
Under occupation.
She just wrote service and,perhaps most strangely of all,
under the part where she wasasked for her passport number

(09:19):
and issuing passport authority,she simply put a mark on each
one that looks somewhat betweena check mark and an X For
payment.
She checked cash, which, whileit was common to accept cash
payments at hotels in the 90s,this wasn't just any hotel.
It was a very upscale luxuryhotel and even in the 90s the

(09:42):
hotel had strict policies tohave a credit card on file at
all times.
For incidentals, however, nocredit card was given and none
seemed to have been asked for.
The other hotel personnel whoremember seeing Jennifer Fargate
, or Fargate when she checked inwas Sasha's supervisor, evie I

(10:04):
don't know how to say YearstonOnly.
Evie's recollection wasdifferent a little bit than
Sasha's because she recalledJennifer arriving with a
dark-haired man that was aboutsix feet tall and between 35 and
40 years old.
Evie told a Norwegian paper.
Evie told a Norwegian paper.
I'm certain she was with a manI was at my regular station.

(10:28):
At the other side stood thatwoman.
Behind her was a dark-hairedman, but whether she had arrived
alone or with a Louis Fargate,she was put in room 2805 and
instructed to put an elevator totake to her room and given two
key cards, and initially Ithought well, two key cards that

(10:49):
might indicate that she waswith another person.
However, throughout her stay,one of the important bits of
evidence or information that wehave about this case is when she
entered her room, because theyhad a system that logged key
card entries into each room andshe only ever or whoever entered

(11:15):
the room only ever used one keycard the entire time.
So that kind of indicates thatit's only one person entering
the room Right A few hours later, around midnight, sasha and
Evie both reported seeingJennifer again in the lobby, but
once again their accounts aredifferent.

(11:37):
Sasha reported that while at thefront desk checking in some
more guests, he saw Jenniferstanding by the elevators alone
and it seemed like she mighthave been waiting for someone.
Evie reported seeing Jenniferand the same man who she had

(12:02):
possibly checked in with at thefront desk earlier exchanging
American money for a Norwegiankroner.
Neither witness recalls theexact time that these sightings
took place.
So, unlike the first eyewitnessaccounts, it's possible these
accounts don't actuallycontradict, because perhaps
Sasha did see Jennifer waitingby the elevator for someone and
then maybe she did meet withthat person and go with them to

(12:22):
exchange money, and so maybethey are both you know, seeing
something accurate.
Let me find my purse.
So here I'm talking about thekey cards.
So the key cards of the Oslocould track whenever a guest
used a key to enter their room,and tracking Jennifer's

(12:43):
movements with her key card is abig part of the case.
But the key card tracking didhave some limitations because it
could not track when somebodyleft their room and if somebody
was inside the room and letsomebody else in, it wouldn't
track that either.
Right, jennifer entered theroom upon initial check-in at

(13:04):
10.44 pm and then again at 12.21am.
So that would be consistentwith her leaving, going
downstairs and doing whatevermaybe with this dude, maybe with
not and then the next car logshowed again.
Remember, the car log isshowing she's entering the room.

(13:25):
The next log is at 8 34 am onthursday morning.
So no witnesses reported seeingher like down to breakfast or
anything.
But at some point she left theroom again and did something.
Yeah, maybe she did havebreakfast and just nobody saw
her.
Maybe she left the hotel andhad breakfast, who knows, maybe

(13:46):
she just went down the hall andgot ice, right, we don't know.
So there are no witnessesreported seeing Jennifer that
morning.
There were no more sightings ofLouis Fairgate or the mystery
man.
Jennifer had been spotted withon Friday night ever again.
History man.
Jennifer had been spotted withon Friday night ever again.

(14:07):
However, we do know thatsometime on Thursday Jennifer
went to the front desk to changeher reservation again and
extended her stay until Sunday,two more days than her initial
stay had been scheduled.
Now, at this point she didreceive two new key cards, but
here's a weird thing, right.
So she had to register againand once again no credit card

(14:30):
was logged on file, no ID numberor passport was taken.
So one time seems like it couldpossibly be written off as an
oversight, especially given howmany guests they were receiving
when she arrived.
But now the same thing hashappened again and that seems
really weird, given how strictthe hotel policy was on having

(14:54):
like a credit card on file andlike at this fancy luxury hotel.
So when front desk supervisorEvie Yurtson was asked how a
guest was allowed to check inwhen no identification or credit
card, she responded it isincomprehensible to me.
We had strict routines at thishotel.

(15:15):
It just shouldn't be possible.
But on the other hand, sasha,the front desk clerk who had
checked her in the night before,claimed it wasn't out of the
realm of possibility.
I remember there was a longqueue of guests.
It was all about assigningrooms as quickly as possible.
We mustn't keep the guestswaiting.
But again, that only explainswhy the error was made during

(15:37):
the initial check-in.
It doesn't explain why it wasmade a second time, and one of
the podcasts where I got some ofthis really good information as
the or not podcast, it was avlog, uh-huh.
She pointed out like it wouldbe really curious to know, like,
did this happen with any otherguests, that they neglected to

(15:58):
take this information?
Yeah, or was it just her Right?
And also, which clerk checkedher in the second time?
Was it that same Sasha guy,again Right, because he sounds a
little bit shady.
Regardless, that's all wereally know about that.
After that, the key card was notused again until the morning of

(16:20):
Friday at 8.50 am, morning ofFriday at 8 50 am.
So that could mean that aftershe extended her stay, she left
the hotel and did not returnuntil the following morning, or
it could mean that she returnedto her room, where someone who
was already inside let her in.
However, it is important tonote that housekeeping entered

(16:44):
the room on Thursday to clean itaround 1240 that day, and at
that time the room was very neatwith nobody in it at all.
The senior housekeeper didreport that on Wednesday, when
Jennifer checked in, thehousekeeper had been told to
prepare the room for two people.
However, it appeared as if onlyone person had been staying in

(17:08):
the room.
So they had given a second duvet, given enough towels and
bathrobes and things for twopeople.
But the second duvet had beenfolded and set on the side, only
it didn't look like it had beenused.
Folded and set on the side,only it didn't look like it had
been used.
So the housekeepers went aheadand put the extra duvet in the

(17:29):
closet and they restocked theroom.
So while cleaning, thehousekeeper noticed a
bright-colored pair of beautifulhigh heels in the closet.
That caught her eye because ofhow beautiful they were.
I couldn't find what color theywere, but there were some kind
of bright color.
Okay, and so whether or not sheleft immediately after she

(17:55):
booked the extended stay, orwhether she came back to her
room, was let in by somebody andthen left before 1240, she was
gone from the hotel fromsomewhere between 20 and 24
hours because she didn't checkback in until like 12, sorry,

(18:15):
not 12, 8.50 in the morning onFriday.
Where she went, what she did,nobody knows.
There's no record.
There's no sightings of her inOslo.
Nobody knows.
It's possible she had a placeor places to go, walked around
the city all day and night.

(18:36):
She could have even had time toleave the city and return again
by train, but whatever she wasdoing, there is no evidence or
trail of her.
However, while she was gone onThursday, hotel administration
finally realized that she didn'thave a credit card on file for
her room number.
So the front desk sent amessage directly to Jennifer's

(18:58):
TV.
This is old school style, butlike do you remember how they
would have like messages pop upon the tv?
Yeah, so they had a message popup on her tv saying, hey, like
you need to come down to thefront desk and like get this
fixed with the cashier, and likeshe would have had to click
okay in order to like continueplaying the tv, and on thursday

(19:22):
nobody clicked okay.
Nobody was there.
However, on Friday at 8.50,right after Jennifer's key card
was used to log her allegedentry back into the hotel room,
somebody did hit okay, all right, they kept sending this message

(19:47):
, acknowledging the message,seconds after she presumably
entered the room.
But she did not go down to thefront desk and put a credit card
on file.
She just hit OK and thenwatched TV, did whatever.
A housekeeping employee for thehotel named Karen Labrote was
working on the 24th that day andshe was at her housekeeping
cart when she may have witnessedJennifer coming back from her

(20:12):
24-hour stint.
She saw her walk down thehallway toward her room.
As Jennifer passed the maze,she told her good morning in
English before unlocking herdoor with her card key and
entering.
But a second later Karenreported that the door opened
again and Jennifer's handextended out of the room,

(20:32):
placing the do not disturb signon the door.
It's speculated that she musthave left the room one more time
because the key was used againthat day at 11.03 am.
But that would be the last timethat the key card was used and
presumably the last timeJennifer would leave her room

(20:54):
alive.
So and nobody saw her at thatpossible outing, so we don't
know what she was doing.
Possible outing, so we don'tknow what she was doing.
At 8.06 pm that evening,jennifer ordered a room service
dinner a bratwurst and potatosalad.
Her meal was delivered at 8.23pm and, since it was a luxury

(21:17):
service, full service hotel, themeal was wheeled into her room
on a cart and the employee thatdelivered the food was named
Kristen Anderson.
Kristen made some observationswhen she was in the room.
She said that the room was veryclean, very neat.
It looked like it hadn't reallybeen lived in much.

(21:38):
The bed was still made andKristen felt like it had not
been slept in.
Because the housekeepers uselike a special technique and if
everybody's been in a hotel likewho knows how they get those
damn beds made so tight and likeyou cannot yeah, no, it takes

(22:00):
an act of god to get that coverup exactly, and who knows what
kind of extra special techniquesthey might have at like a
really bougie hoteland so, uh, it was very
difficult for the guest toreplicate and it looked as
though this bed was still madeup that way.
Anderson also saw a wheeledsuitcase in the room and she

(22:23):
speculated if the woman who wasstaying in the room was a flight
attendant, which wasn'tuncommon.
She reported that Jennifer waswearing a long skirt and gave
her a very outsized tip of 50kroner.
Kristen thought that that wasvery noteworthy, because
typically they would consider a10 kroner note to be a very

(22:44):
generous tip, let alone a 50kroner note.
She reported that when shewheeled in the food, jennifer
had the money already ready inhand.
She wasn't interested in smalltalk, she just wanted to get her
food, hand her the tip and getgone.
Kristen recalled that shedidn't have any trouble placing

(23:05):
the food down because the tablewas completely empty and clean.
That night someone purchasedsomething to watch on
pay-per-view on the TV and thenext day another pay-per-view
purchase was made, but there'sno record of what those
pay-per-views were or whetherthey were watched.
On a Friday night at 8.57 pmthe front desk sent another

(23:32):
message to Jennifer's TV askingfor her to come down again to
put a credit card in file.
The message was acknowledged bysomeone clicking OK, but
Jennifer did not come down tothe cashier's desk or attempt to
put a credit card in file.
At some point between when herfood was delivered and when her

(23:53):
body was found, someone removedand drank three sodas from the
mini bar A coke, a diet coke andan orange soda.
This has struck many people asstrange that all three of these
drinks would belong to Jennifer,because most people either
drink Coke or a Diet Coke, andit's pretty rare for people to

(24:14):
drink both Orange, yeah, andorange soda too, or all three,
yeah.
And another thing that I knowis weird, which here is a
picture moment, if I can findthe right picture.
It looks like one of the drinkswas put into a glass and it
looked like to me there was likean orange tinge in the glass.

(24:37):
So it looked to me like theorange soda was put in the glass
, and to me I'm like, if you'resomebody who puts a drink in a
glass, you're not also somebodywho drinks the drink straight
from the bottle, and so whywould you drink the two drinks
straight from the bottle andthen put the third drink in a
glass?
And so a lot of people believethat these drinks are being

(25:01):
drunk by different people.
A lot of people believe it'stwo different people.
I think it could be possiblythree different people.
Yeah, the only thing that mightmake sense is like unless the
mini bar only had like one ofeach kind of drink yeah that
could be, and you're just reallythirsty and you're like fuck it
, like I don't usually drinkdiet coke, but there's no more

(25:21):
regular coke right left and wedon't know for sure because we
don't have like an inventory ofthe mini bar right.

Speaker 1 (25:30):
But I would expect, since it's such a fancy little
whatever hotel, that theywouldn't just have one of each
drink well, I stayed in a 300plus dollar a night hotel and
they only had one of everythingand they rarely replaced them.

Speaker 2 (25:46):
Yeah, so maybe, but but uh, yeah, so that's one
theory.
It could be, yeah, that theyonly had one of each drink and
she was really thirsty, or itcould be different people
together drinking these drinksand, as you can also see from
the picture, there was an openbag of potato chips that was

(26:07):
also from the mini bar.
So on Saturday June 3rd at 7.45pm, the front desk once again
sent a message asking Jenniferto come down and put the credit
card on file with the cashier.
This message was also seen,acknowledged and dismissed.

(26:27):
The hotel staff was gettingfrustrated that Jennifer was
acknowledging these messages butnot addressing them by coming
up to the front desk to place acard on file.
So Evie Yearston sends anemployee up to check on the
situation.
Irsten sends an employee up tocheck on the situation and when

(26:49):
the employee gets to the doorthey see that that jennifer
placed the do not disturb sign.
So I guess according to hoteletiquette she's not supposed to
disturb or knock on the door.
So the employee decides uh to,she goes down and she tells her
boss, and so at that point Eviedecides to step it up and she
sends up a member of thesecurity team named Espen Nos to

(27:14):
investigate.
Espen goes up at 7.50 pm onSaturday June 3rd.
So when Esmond gets to room 8,uh 2A05, he knocks on the door
but according to his testimony,just seconds later he heard the

(27:35):
sound of a gunshot.
Now, according to one's uhactually I got it confused, not
the sources, I got it confused.
So then he raced down theelevator where the security
office was located and let hissupervisor know what happened.
So then the security chief withsome junior security officers

(27:59):
went back up to check out thesituation.
So let me blah, blah, blah,ignore those notes that I made
because I was a little bitconfused about the happenstance,
but that was my problem.
So it was 14 minutes betweenwhen Espen knocked and heard the
gun go off and when the chiefof security gets to the room and

(28:23):
enters the room using hisspecial key card.
So the key card is a big deal aswell in this case.
So the security team, or thechief security officer more like
, is the only person in thehotel in possession of this

(28:45):
special key card that can entera double locked door in the
hotel.
So other staff, such as thefront desk and the housekeeping,
they have key cards that canopen doors, but if the guest has
locked the door from the inside, they can't open it.
But the security team, or thesecurity chief, is the only

(29:06):
person who has a special keycard who can't open a double
locked door.
And so when he goes to open thedoor, he realized that the door
was double locked.
It was locked from the inside.
So, blah, blah, blah, thesecurity chief realized when he
opened it that the door had beendouble locked, which turns out
to be a big part of the case anda major part of why the police

(29:30):
will ultimately rule the case asa suicide.
So once the security chief wasinside, he reported that the
room was dark but the TV was on.
He called out, but nobody wasresponding.
The TV was on, he called out,but nobody was responding.
So he moved into the room andthat's when he saw the body of
our Jennifer Fairgate lying onthe bed.

(29:51):
He called out to her, but shewas non-responsive.
He could smell a sharp acridodor in the air which was most
likely gunpowder.
I did see an interestinghypothesis from someone who
claimed to have worked in afuneral home, and they claim
that deceased individuals whohave died by homicide whether

(30:11):
it's self-inflicted or murder dohave kind of like an acrid
smell to them that is caused bylike the flood of adrenaline in
the moments before their death.
However, I still think thesmell was most likely from the
gun that the security guardEspen reported hearing.
However, I did think that thatwas an interesting hypothesis to

(30:35):
mention.
Some people have hypothesizedthat she had died earlier and
that the smell was decomposition, and I do think that she may
have died earlier.
We'll get to that, but itwouldn't have been enough time
for her to decompose, especiallyin a nice cool hotel room.

(30:55):
So we definitely uh the thelady who wheeled in her dinner
the day before has seen her atlike 24 hours before.
So at most she's been dead for24 hours and at the least for

(31:15):
like not that long, like half anhour at this point, more to 15
minutes to 15 minutes.
So so once he sees, once thesecurity chief sees that there
is a body, he backs out of theroom and he has his junior

(31:39):
security officers watch the doorand he goes down and calls the
police.
So the only time that the roomwas unguarded was at 14 minutes
between when the first securityofficer heard the shot went down
to get the chief securityofficer.
But I will note that is plentyof time for somebody to leave
Get the fuck out yeah, exactlyso.

(32:02):
Once the police arrive, theystart taking observations and
log the crime scene.
The position of Jennifer's bodywas strange.
It looks like she sat down onthe edge of the bed and then
just laid the top part of herbody down, which I guess would
make sense for if she sat downon the edge of the bed and shot
herself and then collapsed.

(32:22):
Except that she was kind ofalso on the edge of the bed and
shot herself and then collapsed.
Except that she was kind ofalso on the edge of the bed and
it seemed like she could havealmost like fallen off the the
bed here.
Let me show you what I mean.
I don't have the full.
Let's see.
Do I have that side view or doI only have that top view?

(32:43):
Oh, here we go.
Here's that side view.
See, it looks like she was likesitting and then just kind of
yeah, in the netflix episodewhen the investigators were
trying to recreate how she mighthave done it, they envisioned
her already lying on the bed,pressing the gun to her forehead
, which seems like an odd choice.
But it gets even more strange.

(33:05):
In her right hand, which wascrossed over her chest, jennifer
was holding a nine millimeterBrowning pistol, which is a
semi-automatic handgun that hasa history of being used by
military and special forcespersonnel, and Jennifer was
holding the gun in a veryunusual grip, with her thumb

(33:26):
pressed down on the trigger andthe rest of her fingers wrapped
around the grip.
Should I have a picture of thatfor you two?

Speaker 1 (33:34):
Hmm, yeah, I take it that's blood on it On the gun.

Speaker 2 (33:42):
Yes, there's blood on the gun Because it kind of
looks rusted.
But we will also note there isno blood where.
On her hand On her hand.
There's no blood on her hand,and where she was shot was right
in the center of her forehead.
Okay, so she would have beenholding this gun like that.

(34:03):
Yeah, and also.
Well, I guess this would beweird, so it would be more
comfortable to do the song, andwhen the investigators were
showing how she would have doneit, they also envisioned that
she would have wanted to takeher other hand and place it

(34:25):
around the barrel of the gunSorry, I'm leaning back and you
probably can't hear me that shewould have wanted to lean back
and place her other hand aroundthe barrel of the gun to study
it, because particularly that isa common thing that you will
find with people who commitsuicide because they're, they're
shaking, they're scared.
Yeah, but again, on either ofher hands there's no blood and

(34:48):
there's no gunshot residue herhands were both completely clean
.
Yeah, so I'm kind of gettingahead of myself a little bit.
So she was dressed in all black, with low slung black heels,
black stockings, a black bra, ablack jacket or black shirt and

(35:08):
black silky pajama, shortunderwear things, pajama short
underwear things.
And she had a plain gold bandon her right hand and on her
left wrist, which is also veryinteresting.
She was wearing a veryinteresting watch, a Citizen

(35:32):
Aqualand watch, which is apretty intense watch used by
many types of military personneland also by divers.
It's like a diving watch, it'slike waterproof, it's all kinds
of proof.
It's not usually like a typicalladies watch.
One thing that was not reallycovered by the Unsolved

(35:55):
Mysteries episode was that thegun had shot not one, but two
shots the shot that had killedJennifer and another shot into a
pillow on the bed, and thepillow was turned over, so you
could not see the scorch markand there was a bullet hole in

(36:16):
it, and the bullet hole ofcourse, went down through the
bed and into the concreteunderneath, and of course, the
bullet hole that had gonethrough her also went down
through the bed and into theconcrete.
So there we go.
That's how they know that shewas laying down.
The police hypothesized thatthe shot into the pillow in the

(36:37):
bed was a test shot, and thatwas the first time the gun was
shot.
And then the second shot,jennifer, was the one that
Jennifer used for an earlyself-checkout.
The Browning gun had been fullyloaded with nine bullets and
after the incident there wereseven bullets remaining.
But why would she want to flipover the pillow to hide the

(37:00):
entry point of the test shotwhen she was committing suicide
and why would she even thinkabout or care about doing a test
shot?
You would think that in mostcases that would make somebody
lose their nerve.
Jennifer's grip on the gun wasreported to be very tight, so
tight that when the forensicsexperts removed her grip from

(37:23):
the gun, they heard a click ofthe trigger decompressing.
That would imply that her griphad never loosened from the
moment that she had pulled thetrigger.
If she had in fact pulled itherself, however, the Browning
pistol is known to have a strongrecoil, which is seen in the
Unsolved Mysteries episode, andtypically in the moment of death

(37:46):
her muscles would slacken andshe would have dropped the gun.
Now there is a somewhat rarephenomenon where the muscles can
and says seize up in the momentof death and that could account
for the tight grip she had onthe gun.
Now there is a somewhat rarephenomenon where the muscles can
and says seize up in the momentof death and that could account
for the tight grip she had onthe gun, but doesn't really
explain how her hand droppedneatly onto her chest instead of
like next to her head, or whyshe had a strange, such a

(38:10):
strange and awkward grip on thegun in the first place, or why
there was no blood splatter onher hands or any gunshot residue
, which is very important and asignificant finding in this case
.
It was reported there was bloodsplatter all over the hotel bed
, on the bedside table, on thewall and even a bit on the

(38:32):
ceiling, but there was not adrop of blood on her hands and
her hands were extremely clean.
And when shooting a gun itdoesn't always leave gunshot
residue.
But it's particularly strangeto not have any gunshot residue
when the bullet is fired atpoint blank range, like she

(38:54):
would have had to done if shehad ended her own life, and
especially with the speed atwhich they responded to the
crime, because sometimes thegunshot residue will fade over
time.
But police were on the scenewithin an hour.
Next to the bed there was ablack attaché case, but the case
only contained 25 more 9mmbullets on top of the ones that

(39:20):
were already in the pistol, andso she would have started out
with 34 bullets, which is a hellof a lot of bullets to have if
you're just trying to killyourself.
It's also very noteworthy andstrange that not only was the
military-style Browning pistolshe used unmarked, but the
serial number had not just beenfiled off, as is typical for

(39:42):
unmarked or illegal firearms.
It had been meticulouslyremoved with acid in what was
reported to be an extremelyprofessional fashion.
Even today, with advancedtechnology, that can usually
determine what those serialnumbers used to be when it's
been filed off.
For example, forensics expertswere not able to decipher the

(40:03):
serial number on this gunbecause whoever did the removal
was thought to be so thoroughand professional.
They knew exactly how deep togo to remove every trace of the
serial number.
They could only determine thegun was produced in a factory in
Belgium in 1990 or 1991.

(40:24):
Jennifer's fingerprints werealso found throughout the room,
but they were not found at allon the gun or on the bullets
inside the gun.
Nor were any gloves found toexplain how she could have
loaded the gun without gettingprints on the bullets, and no
match for her fingerprints hasbeen found in Interpol to this

(40:46):
day.
Another suspicious aspect ofthe case is that the remains of
her bratwurst meal that sheordered the day before were
found in her stomach, indicatingthat she had died within a few
hours of ingesting that meal,which, if you recall, she had
ordered around 8 on Fridayevening.
Now it is possible she hadsaved some of the meal, or saved

(41:09):
it entirely and not eaten ituntil Saturday, but there was no
fridge in the room and it seemsunlikely she would want to eat
day-old bratwurst and potatosalad that had been sitting at
room temperature for a whole day.
Yeah, that sounds gross, yeahand it didn't seem like she ate
some on Friday and then some onSaturday, because hardly any was

(41:30):
eaten off the plate at all.
I have a picture of that of theplate.
You can see she hasn't eatenvery much of the plate at all.
I have a picture of that of theplate.
You can see she hasn't eatenvery much of the meal at all.
Yeah, no, she ate like a bite.
Yep.
All of the clothes she had inthe room were uniformly black or
gray.
I think there may have beenlike one mustard colored sweater

(41:51):
and all she had were tops, tops, blouses, jackets, sweaters and
some bras and underwear.
There were no pants, no skirts,nothing for the bottom half of
her body.
Interesting, all of the tags onher clothes had been removed.
Now, at first that didn'tstrike me as weird, because

(42:11):
those tags were hella, itchy anduncomfortable and that alone
wouldn't make me suspicious.
Because why wouldn't you wantto remove those?
They were awful, yeah.
However, efforts had also beenmade to rub out brand names that
were branded or emblazoned inother fashions that wouldn't
interfere with comfort, such asrubbing out the name on the

(42:32):
outside back of her shoes and onher bag.
That does indicate it goesbeyond a comfort issue and that
she may have been trying toerase the origin of those items,
and this is apparently a commonpractice, or was a common

(42:55):
practice, in internationalespionage at the time.
It may not be anymore becauseof the globalization of things,
but looking at where things camefrom, where things were bought,
that was a way that you couldpotentially trace somebody back
to where they were from.
Yeah, despite these attempts,they were able to trace some of

(43:15):
the branding origins of some ofher clothes and items.
Her shoes were Italian made andher briefcase and blazer were
German.
There was a bottle of men'scologne next to her plate of
food, but it was a generic brandthat could be bought at any
European pharmacy.

(43:36):
Now, this could possibly beseen as evidence that a man was
staying in her room, but itcould have just been that she
liked the scent.
Jennifer was found wearingeyeliner, but there was no
eyeliner or makeup of any kindin the room, and there were no
toothbrush, hairbrush or anykind of specific toiletries that

(43:56):
you would expect, aside fromthe complimentary soap, shampoo
and conditioner provided by thehotel.
Someone had taken a shower,however, as the soap and shampoo
, along with towels and bathrobe, had been used, and actually I
have a picture of the bathroomthere it is.
It's not that exciting, but youcan see somebody's taking a

(44:18):
shower.
The bright shoes seen by thehousekeeper and the rolling
suitcase seen by the bellhopwere nowhere to be found.
There was also one otherunusual finding in the room a
newspaper that was labeled forroom 2816.
You know, people could like,order, like newspapers, and they

(44:40):
would be delivered to theirspecific rooms.
Right, this newspaper was forroom 2816 and it also on the
newspaper that plastic sleevethat they would come in was
found, the only fingerprint inthe room that was not belonging
to Jennifer.
However, there was no word orinformation about whether or not

(45:01):
police ran that print throughInterpol or whether or not they
questioned the person who wasstaying in room 2816, which I
found to be strange.
Another strange thing Now I'vecome to the Another strange
thing Now I've come to the endof my notes.
So another strange thing isthat the hotel did have security

(45:23):
cameras, but they don't seem tohave been checked or there's no
record of them having beenchecked.
So while it could be confirmed,like these kinds of things like
was she with a guy?
Was she not with a guy?
Where was she?
When was she Like, did somebodyleave her room?
Was she letting people into herroom?
But nobody seems to havechecked these things or it

(45:47):
wasn't recorded.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (45:50):
Maybe they didn't work.
Maybe they, like the police,were like hey, can we see your
security footage?
And the hotel was like they'rejust cameras.

Speaker 2 (45:58):
That's definitely a possibility.
So, as far as witnesses go,most people reported most of her
.
People in the rooms around herreported they didn't really see
or hear anything.
People in the rooms around herreported they didn't really see
or hear anything.
There was one gentleman who wasin the room like across from

(46:24):
her 2804, who was said to be aBelgian businessman and he, when
they tried to question him, heacted kind of shady about it and
then he was like oh yeah, Ifelt so sorry about, I heard
about what happened to her, like, and I felt so sorry about it.
Only, the thing that is weirdabout that is that he stayed at

(46:45):
the hotel Friday night andchecked out Saturday morning,
well, but Jennifer's body wasnot found until Saturday evening
, and so how could he have knownabout what happened to her?
Yeah, but what happened to thatguy and like where did he go?
Nobody knows Right, and he wascalled Mr F, and so about the

(47:11):
double lock, right?
So about the double lock right?
That was.
Police ultimately ruled thecase a suicide because they said
nobody could enter a doublelocked door from, or they could
not have locked it From theoutside From the outside,

(47:31):
exactly.
That's what I'm trying to say.
However, on the show theyinterviewed a former member of
Norwegian international securityand he said, yeah, it would be

(47:57):
no problem for somebody who likea spy or somebody who was in,
like international security, itwould be absolutely no problem
for them to open and close doorsand to to have locked it.
That way.
He said there's no.
He said there's no locked doorfor I forget how he said it, but
basically there's no lockeddoors for spies.
And so, yeah, a big one of theone of the biggest theories is

(48:20):
that she was a spy, um, and andthere's also some other theories
like that she could have been ahigh-class prostitute.
But here's what I find a littlebit unbelievable about that,
because one of the one of therationales they're like she
didn't have pants Right, like,and they're like did she even

(48:44):
have pants the whole time?
Because she was seen wearing acoat, and like, did she have
pants underneath it?
Like, why wouldn't she havepants?
Especially because the, thebellhop observed her wearing a
skirt Right, but, like thekiller or killers, like she had
been observed with that rollingluggage that disappeared.

(49:04):
Obviously, her pants or therest of her clothes were in
there.
Like it makes sense to hang upyour blouses?
Yeah, and not necessarily yourpants.

Speaker 1 (49:14):
Yeah exactly Particularly if there were jeans
or something along those lines.
That don't wrinkle.

Speaker 2 (49:20):
So I don't think that it's some like scandal, like oh
, she didn't even have pants.

Speaker 1 (49:25):
How does that even make a prostitute?
A prostitute can wear pantsRight.

Speaker 2 (49:29):
Exactly and like none of the rest of her.
Like clothes or whatever seemlike.
None of the rest of her likeclothes or whatever seem like
scandalous in any way.
They're very sensible.
Like very like you know, justblack and gray.
Like why would she have thislike really sensible blouse and
then just no pants?
Like that's her like I don'tknow shtick or whatever, right

(49:56):
High class no pants, susan, orsomething it does not explain.
Like what were all thosebullets for?
Like, if she was just aprostitute, like why would they
go, whoever go to such lengthsto try and cover it up?
Like who cares?
Like nobody cares.
Like if a prostitute getskilled and they're like, oh,

(50:16):
it's just a prostitute, even ahigh-class prostitute like
people don't put so much effortinto covering up their identity,
right?

Speaker 1 (50:26):
so I think she either had to be like an assassin or a
spy although it's odd that shewould wear only black as an
assassin or spy, because you'dwant to blend in, but as
somebody who wears black all thetime, that sticks out like
nothing else.

Speaker 2 (50:41):
Yeah.
Do you think it stuck out somuch in Norway in the 90s?

Speaker 1 (50:47):
Well, I don't know what Norway was doing, but the
people I've met from Norway, Ididn't see any black on them,
yeah because I mean she wasnoticed, but like I don't know,
I don't know she stuck out.

Speaker 2 (50:59):
So so much.
But yeah, it is, it is a littleweird.
It is a little weird that shehad all black, but it also
doesn't quite fit the prostitutething yeah, no, I, I wouldn't
say that she's a.

Speaker 1 (51:15):
I don't buy the high-class sex worker.

Speaker 2 (51:19):
Yeah, it could have been a costume Like all black.
It could have been like apersona.

Speaker 1 (51:27):
Well, yeah, but still , if you're a spy or an assassin
, you don't want to stick out.

Speaker 2 (51:32):
Yeah, but do you have another theory about?

Speaker 1 (51:35):
who she's other than suicide, but that would I mean
it.
It could be both things.
She could have been an assassinand spy and killed herself.
Very true, you know, um,because, like the the hand grip
doesn't bother me, because, like, like, if you know, trying with
your trigger finger to hold thegun on either side, that's very

(51:58):
awkward.
Yeah, to do the thumb is very,very easy.

Speaker 2 (52:03):
Yeah, but then how come she didn't have blood or
gunshot residue on her hand?

Speaker 1 (52:06):
Well, I'm not saying she didn't, I'm just saying the
hand position part doesn'tbother me.

Speaker 2 (52:14):
Yeah, yeah, what?
I think whether she's a spy oralthough, oh, I didn't get into
part of the thing.
So they, they ended up buryingher like in basically an
unmarked grave.
They exhumed her and they tookdna evidence and they trace her

(52:37):
uh lineage to east germany andso she was at least of east
german origin, which lines upwith some of the things.
Like some of her items weregerman, like her attache case
and her blazer, and one of thetimes she called uh, they said

(52:58):
that she spoke fluent german,right with an east german accent
and a lot of the, the stasi orwhatever, like the german east
german secret police, yeah,after the fall of the Berlin
Wall went into like espionageand stuff, and so it's possible

(53:20):
that, although she was on theyoung side, they found that they
were able to like radio likeage her, based on like the
amount of like a certain type oflike radioactive carbon or
whatever in her teeth and theyfound that she was 24 and she
looks a lot older than 24 yeah,yeah, she was 24, and so she

(53:48):
would have been quite young,like when the berlin wall fell,
but that doesn't mean that shewasn't being like she wouldn't
have been that young, she wouldhave been in her late teens.

Speaker 1 (53:56):
Yeah, if she was 24, she would have been 19.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (53:58):
That's what I'm saying.
She could have been groaned orbeing on that path.
Mm-hmm, yeah, the Norwegianintelligence agent, or former
intelligence agent, said thatthat could be also a reason.
Former intelligence agent saidthat that could be also a reason

(54:18):
, like if she was an espionage.
He said that that would be acould be a reason why no family
has come forward to claim herbecause he said that a lot of
times like the family will getpaid off under the table.

Speaker 1 (54:26):
Yeah, yeah, that doesn't surprise me.
So, yeah, I was thinking aboutthat locked from the inside
thing and I was looking on hereand there.
There was a case not too longago, I forget where, but one of
the leaders of Hamas wasmurdered by Mossad.
Yeah, and he was found in aroom that had been double locked

(54:47):
from the inside.
Yeah, yeah, so clearly it'spossible.

Speaker 2 (54:52):
Intelligence.
Clearly it's possible.
Intelligence, that's the wordthat the ex-intelligence agent
used.

Speaker 1 (55:01):
He said there's no closed doors for intelligence.
Yeah, yeah, I imagine it wouldhave been quite easy for someone
who knows Well.
At the very least, it's clearshe didn't want to be traced in
any way, even if she wasn't aspy.

Speaker 2 (55:17):
She reminded me of Villanelle from Killing Eve.
Uh-huh, have you seen that show?
No, she's like an assassin.
Yeah, she's like a ladyassassin.
She's not very subtle.
She kind of reminds me of herand she also kind of reminds me
of her and she also kind ofreminds me of trinity from the

(55:38):
matrix yeah, yeah, she looksjust like her yeah, her short
black hair and her leatherjacket.

Speaker 1 (55:44):
Yeah, I don't know, maybe trinity was based on her.

Speaker 2 (55:49):
Yeah, I'm just kidding, I have no idea I don't
know, but I also thought thatlike um with her, like coloring
and stuff like that and hershort hair, like she could have
put on a wig and like yeahpassed off as a bunch of
different looks.
Oh yeah, and uh, what did thatuh older intelligence agent say?

(56:10):
He also said that it's verycommon for an intelligence agent
to have like a second place togo to.
Like if they thought that therewas a problem like with
whatever their operation was,and so like he didn't think it
was that strange that shedisappeared for like 24 hours,
yeah, he thought that she wasgoing to whatever like her

(56:31):
second place.

Speaker 1 (56:32):
Mm-hmm so.

Speaker 2 (56:40):
Like a safe house, yeah, something like that.
He didn't really elaborate,right?
I guess there's only so muchyou can say, right, yeah, um,
and they asked him.
They were like well, what elsecould she be like, if?
If she's not a spy, which couldshe be?
And he said I, I can't imaginethat she's anything else but a
spy.
Yeah, um, assassin is my otherthought.

(57:02):
Yeah, and but other outside ofthat, I was like I don't know,
yeah it certainly feels that wayand there's a.
There's another case that's kindcase, that's kind of.
That's kind of similar.
It's not really it's not supersimilar, but it's also like and
similar in that it's like a JaneDoe who was found with all her

(57:25):
tags cut off and they think thatshe may have been like a
Russian spy.
Yeah, so yeah, I wanted to gointo that a little bit more as
well, that other case, but I ranout of time.
That's all right so but yeah, Ithink that that oh, oh, oh.

(57:45):
So my my thought of like whatcould have happened right is
that, whatever her sting orwhatever happened, something
went wrong or maybe.
Maybe, like she was set up forthe beginning and like, like it
was always like gonna be, likethey're killing her and like she
was set up to mess up, or yeah,or maybe she did mess it up the

(58:09):
job or whatever it was, and sowhatever, like she messed up and
and her buddies or her handlersor whatever the fuck, I don't
know.
You know they come and they havedrinks with her or whatever,

(58:36):
and the way that they showedlike that it would be likely to
have killed her, as if they, youknow, like pin her down
basically on the bed, like shewas a small woman, and then held
the gun to her head and andshot her.
Oh, another weird thing is thatin the autopsy toxicology
report they only tested her foralcohol.
They did not test her for anydrugs yeah so they don't know if
she was under the influence ofanything.

Speaker 1 (58:56):
Yeah, like they could have slipped something in her
drink.

Speaker 2 (58:59):
Exactly, and that's why she possibly didn't have
signs of like fighting back oryeah.
And then whoever stayed in herroom to like clean up, frame the
scene and maybe had a shower toclean themselves up, ate the
chips and and whatnot.
And then, when the personknocked on the door, they

(59:23):
realized they're out of time.
They did the shot into thepillow, yeah, and then put the
gun into her hand and left yeah,um, why?

Speaker 1 (59:37):
why would they want to do that?

Speaker 2 (59:39):
put the shot in the pillow to well, for for two
reasons to depress the triggerso that the the trigger is down
in her grip, and two, to scareoff the person at the door,
because I mean, like, who'sgoing to charge in if you hear a
gunshot?
True, so that's my possibletheory of what happened.

Speaker 1 (01:00:05):
Yeah, yeah, interesting case.

Speaker 2 (01:00:13):
Anything else.
I also thought, and I've readlike some people, people are
like why haven't they traced her, like genetic genealogy or
whatever like, and yeah, Iwonder that as well, like well,
what I was?

Speaker 1 (01:00:24):
what I was reading is that norway has very strict
privacy laws regarding dna andstuff well, there you go.

Speaker 2 (01:00:31):
Okay, that explains that, but uh, but it would be
because you would think like youwouldn't want to find somebody.

Speaker 1 (01:00:40):
Also, genealogy is not really much of a thing in
Europe.
Yeah, it's really only theUnited States that gives a shit
Right, which makes sense becausewe are such a mixed country in
a way that other nations I meanthey're mixed, but they're not
mixed like us.

Speaker 2 (01:00:57):
That's very true.
But as like a forensics tooland stuff like that, Well, true
but, Seems like candy.

Speaker 1 (01:01:04):
I mean genetic dn or genealogical dna as crime
evidence is new?
Yeah, only the last few years.
And then you have, um, theprivacy laws like, and they're
having, they're even questioningit here in the states with the
coberger case.

Speaker 2 (01:01:25):
Yeah, you know I mean , it is a big question, yeah, of
privacy, I agree.
Yeah, it is a big question,yeah, of privacy, I agree.

Speaker 1 (01:01:31):
Yeah, so I mean genetic genealogy.
I don't think it would behelpful in that case if
genealogy period isn't much of athing Right In Europe.
But putting DNA in a database,yeah, but then that's also a
privacy thing which was think,which people argue every now and
again here too.

Speaker 2 (01:01:54):
Yeah, also a privacy thing which was think, which
people argue every now and againhere too.
Yeah, I guess you could put ina thing and then like, if
somebody put their whatever didtheir dna test and they're like,
hey, guess what, you're relatedto this mystery woman, yeah,
like that could be somethinginteresting yeah, but then her,
her, somebody related to her,would have had to move here

(01:02:15):
probably yeah, to do thatbecause, like, because, yeah,
it's interesting, because I Ithink about that all the
sometimes not all the timesometimes, like, because I've
done the, the dna stuff, right,I only get connected to people
here in the States, right, I'venever been connected to anybody
overseas.

Speaker 1 (01:02:33):
I mean, I know my DNA comes from Scandinavia and
Germany and England and.
Ireland, but I never find arelative over there.

Speaker 2 (01:02:42):
Yeah, I think I've been connected to a couple of
people in the UK.

Speaker 1 (01:02:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:02:47):
I have like 60% of my DNA from the UK.

Speaker 1 (01:02:55):
I'm pretty evenly split between the four.

Speaker 2 (01:02:57):
Yeah.
But, anything else.
I think that I might think ofsomething else later, but that's
all I could think about now, soI don't know.
Yeah, what do you?

Speaker 1 (01:03:17):
think I don't know.
I mean, it seems interestingand yeah, I think spy is
probably spy or assassin orsomething along those lines is
probably true.
Charlie's angels yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:03:29):
Charlie's Angels.

Speaker 1 (01:03:32):
Yeah, charlie's.

Speaker 2 (01:03:33):
Sensible Angel.

Speaker 1 (01:03:36):
Because it doesn't seem like a suicide.
Yeah, and it wouldn't explainall the other things.

Speaker 2 (01:03:43):
I would be really interested in knowing some of
the stuff that is unknown.
Like you know what the hell wasordered on pay-per-view.

Speaker 1 (01:03:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:03:54):
And stuff like that, and like who checked her in the
second time?
Yeah, yeah, because that's.
The other thing is like how thehell did she get checked into
this hotel with like no car andstuff like that, no passport or
anything, yeah, and then it justslid under the radar, not once,

(01:04:15):
but twice, yeah, like thatseems like like there's somebody
like on the inside involvedwho's like you know whatever,
like oh, you get a pass yeah,could be, although we don't know
that other people in that madcrush didn't also yeah, no,

(01:04:36):
absolutely, and that's why.
That's why it would beinteresting to know if other, if
that happened with other peopletoo, and um, but like the
second time though the secondtime it wasn't known to be a
particularly busy time and andshe had to check in a second
time to get the extension yeah,and so that's why it's like

(01:04:56):
twice um well, maybe theyassumed that they had the info
from the first time maybe, maybe, so, um, yeah, and also let's
see the.
The vlogger hypothesized thatshe came in on the train and

(01:05:20):
like arrived at the hotelintentionally like at the same
time that all of those likeplane arrivals were coming in,
to blend in with the crowd.
Because there's also no recordof like how did she get to
norway?
Like yeah, you know?
No, nobody knows.
Like there's no record of hercoming by plane or by anywhere

(01:05:40):
well, if they don't have hername well, very true, yeah, very
true, but also like nobody's,nobody's like.
Yeah, we saw her on the plane.

Speaker 1 (01:05:49):
Yeah, so well, I mean , I don't know if I would
recognize anybody I've flownwith either, you know, unless I
was like attached to them insome way.
Yeah, you know, like I I meanthe person sitting next to me
who I had a conversation withgoing to nashville.
If something had happened toher and the police came and gave

(01:06:12):
me like a photograph, Iwouldn't have been able to tell
you yes or no, right?

Speaker 2 (01:06:16):
But no.
However she got in, she seemedlike she probably used like a
fake identity a fake passportthat she either discarded or it
was in that wheelie luggage thatmysteriously disappeared.
Yeah, that wheelie luggage thatmysteriously disappeared, yeah,
whereas the wheelie luggage,the wheelie luggage- knows all

(01:06:38):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (01:06:39):
Is that it yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:06:40):
I think that's it.

Speaker 1 (01:06:41):
Okay, so let me do the missing person.
I'm not fully prepared, butwe'll wing it.
Oh, that's the werewolf one.
Okay, the werewolf one, thewerewolf missing person, not
missing person, but oh shit,hold on, I get people.

(01:07:04):
They ran away.

Speaker 2 (01:07:06):
True crime whatever.

Speaker 1 (01:07:08):
And they have a little, not a little.
They a thing called uh werewolfconfessed to eating his son and
other murders.
Was he really a killer or avictim of mass hysteria?
And it's about a man namedpeter strump who thought he was
a werewolf.
Allegedly well, the people whoexecuted him all thought he was

(01:07:29):
a werewolf was that that guyfrom like old-timey germany?
uh, probably.
It doesn't give me a.
I haven't read all the way downso I don't know what year
sounds old-timey german.
It does sound old-timey german,although I was watching
something not too very long agoand it was in not germany, but

(01:07:51):
it was in like one of the thethe caucasus, like bulgaria or
estonia or someplace like that,and I mean it was like that year
, and they were, um, uh, filminga village where they believed
that there was actually avampire roaming around.

(01:08:12):
Yeah, you know, still like inthe 21st century, a vampire, a
vampire is it a scary vampire ora glittery vampire?
according to them, scary nice.
Okay, so let me do my missingperson if I can find it Okay.
So again, her name is eitherAshley Heavy Runner Loring or

(01:08:36):
Ashley Loring Heavy Runner,Depends on the source.
I'm going to read the littlebit that I have on her from the
Guardian.
So on a summer's evening inearly June 2017, Ashley Heavy
Runner Loring messaged somefriends on Facebook looking for
a ride into town from herfamily's ranch in the Blackfoot

(01:08:57):
Reservation in Northwest Montana.
As she waited for the friend toarrive, she grabbed some
clothes, packed them into a bluestring backpack and said
goodbye to her grandmother.
Then she ran outside to thewaiting car.
Later that night, someoneposted a short video of a party
somewhere on the res.
In it, Ashley, who was 20 atthe time, was on the couch

(01:09:19):
surrounded by people drinkingbeers and chatting.
At one point, Ashley messagedher older sister, Kimberly, who
is in Morocco, who's visitingher fiance, and she wrote send
me some ms meaning money, canyou?
And her sister replied I wish Ican, sis, but I'm in Africa,

(01:09:39):
Are you okay?
And Ashley replied.
Always, Some days passed,Kimberly had returned to the US,
called Ashley.
Ashley didn't pick up, but shedidn't think too much of it
because Ashley apparently losther phone.
All the US called Ashley.
Ashley didn't pick up, but shedidn't think too much of it,
because Ashley apparently losther phone all the time and they
had had a plan to move away fromtheir little area of Browning

(01:10:07):
and into Missoula to start a newlife.
But a week went by without aword from her and in mid-June
the father was hospitalized forliver failure and Ashley never
showed up and Kimberly, I guess,called around and whatever, and
she discovered that no one hadseen Ashley since the night of

(01:10:29):
their party.
So she's been missing sincethen.
So if you have any informationconcerning this case, you can
contact the FBI Salt Lake CityField Office at 801-579-1400 or
the Blackfeet Law EnforcementServices at 406-338-4000.

(01:10:54):
You can also contact your localFBI office or the nearest
American embassy or consulate,or you can submit a tip online
at tipsfbigov.

Speaker 2 (01:11:07):
Sounds good.

Speaker 1 (01:11:08):
Hopefully somebody has heard something about her,
and yeah, Hopefully, althoughapparently nobody looked into
her disappearance for a longtime.
That's awful, yeah Well, she isan indigenous woman and that
happens all the time.

Speaker 2 (01:11:24):
Yeah, it's probably only going to get worse.

Speaker 1 (01:11:32):
No doubt Okay.
So what have you been reading?
Or writing?
Reading or writing, reading orwatching, or both I have not
been writing except for thispodcast.

Speaker 2 (01:11:47):
What have I been watching?
I just watched that UnsolvedMysteries episode.
Other than that, I haven'treally watched anything.
I have read, let's see.
I read Sense and Sensibilityand Misery.
Did we talk about IncidentsAround the House last time?

(01:12:11):
Yes, Okay, wow.
Then I've read Sense andSensibility and Misery.

Speaker 1 (01:12:17):
Well, I think maybe you did, I don't remember.
I know you talked about it tome.

Speaker 2 (01:12:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:12:23):
And that.

Speaker 2 (01:12:25):
I probably talked about it on the podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:12:29):
When did you read it?
Because we recorded two weeksago.

Speaker 2 (01:12:32):
Incidents around the house is what I read.
I don't, I have no sense oftime, apparently from 116 to 122
, probably not then, okay, well,I read incidents around the
house by josh mall, so that waspretty good and I recommend it

(01:12:53):
if you like Josh Mallerman andif you like like kid POV and
like Skinnamarink kind of thing.
And I'm currently reading afantasy book called Tests of the
Road by Rachel Hartman.

(01:13:17):
So, that's pretty good.
It's going to work for the 2025book challenge, the one where
it's supposed to be set in thesame universe, because
apparently it's not a sequel,but it's set in the same
universe as a book that wasalready written.
So I kind of wish I had gottenthe other book too.

Speaker 1 (01:13:40):
But well, I think that's part of the, isn't that?
Another one, yeah, but I.

Speaker 2 (01:13:44):
What I mean is I wish I had read the other book first
.
Even though it was, it's notlike a direct sequel I gotcha
the events of the other booktake place first, and the other
book was written first, gotcha,and so I think it would have
made a little bit more sense ifI had read the other book first.
Yeah, but this book was on saleand it had a kind of

(01:14:06):
eye-catching cover, so I got it.
That's nice, and I was like I'mgoing to read more fantasy.
Yeah, it's pretty good.
I thought it was gonna be likeya.
Um, it is, it is kind of ya, butit's like like ya, like young
adult, adult like not it's a bitdark for teens, I would say say

(01:14:29):
yeah, I mean, I'm sure, teenscan and will read it.
But, yeah, it's got like essayand suicidal ideation, things of
that nature.
So yeah, it's a bit on the darkside for teens.
What I would recommend forteens Mm-hmm.
So yeah, but it's good Good.

(01:14:51):
Yeah, and it's yeah that's allI have to say.
I'm not done yet, so I can'tsay whether or not I recommend
it yet I'm enjoying it so far,that's good, I don't want to.
How far in are you halfway,halfway?
Yeah.
I don't want to jump torecommend a book when I don't
know how it ends.

Speaker 1 (01:15:08):
Yeah if you, if you had to give a star rating gun to
your head, what would it be?

Speaker 2 (01:15:17):
um, like four, I guess so far.
So far, that's like my standardradius and I like this book,
but it's not like the.
Yeah, I think I definitely rankit higher than all these

(01:15:39):
romanticies.

Speaker 1 (01:15:43):
Rachel's, not a romanticie girly.

Speaker 2 (01:15:46):
Yeah, let me give me more handfuls of this grim stuff
.

Speaker 1 (01:15:53):
Okay, well, let's see what have I been doing.
Well, I rewatched anotherK-drama called Business Proposal
I think I talked about thatbefore.
It's on Netflix if you want towatch it.
It's not bad, it's kind ofamusing.
And then I watched well,yesterday because I was too

(01:16:16):
tired to do anything else.
I was watching a show like adocuseries, I guess you would
call it on hitler's henchmen,okay, so I don't know where it
stopped, but but it stopped withme talking, so it was clearly
about whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:16:36):
It didn't want to hear about Nazis.

Speaker 1 (01:16:38):
Apparently it didn't want to hear about Nazis, so a
brief recap.
I won't go through all of itagain, but it was.
I watched a docuseries on Nazis, specifically the henchmen of
the inner circle of Hitler, andit was really fascinating and

(01:17:02):
I'm not done yet Highlyrecommend, Although a little
oversimplistic for theirmotivations motivations, I think
, is what I said before but it'salso okay if you're feeling
overwhelmed by how bleakeverything is right now and you
don't want more it's just.

(01:17:22):
It's just a recommendation.

Speaker 2 (01:17:24):
You don't need to no, I know listen or watch anything
I'm just saying like, sometimesI'm like I should like educate
myself more, but, like you hadtold me before, we have to find
the balance between stayinginformed and and what was it
like our own well-being andoverwhelmed.

Speaker 1 (01:17:44):
Yeah, yeah, because if you're overwhelmed you're not
really going to be much use toanybody.
Very true so, yeah, if, if Ifind history consoling because
I'm a historian, so thebleakness of the past, I guess I
I wouldn't say it doesn'tbother me, but it's not like the
bleakness of the presence.
What are you looking at?

(01:18:05):
You're not listening.

Speaker 2 (01:18:06):
You just got sidetracked by my books the
bleakness of the past does notreflect on the bleakness of the
present well, it's kind of true,you know, because you're not
living through.
I'm just saying I was listeningokay yeah, I was just also kind
of glazing off yeah, well, Ifind it interesting.

Speaker 1 (01:18:32):
Yeah, if you find history consoling, watch it.
If not, whatever you know, youdon't have to.
You don't have to educateyourself on anything it is
interesting, I just also, I'mlike fuck humans yeah yeah, like
let's just end this human raceI don't know if I'm that far
gone, uh against the humans, butyeah um but or just supremacy

(01:18:58):
speaking of, uh, ending thehuman race, I'm also reading a
book called I don't know why Icannot remember the name of it,
saved my life, but it is calledeverything must go the stories
we tell about the end of theworld by dorian linsky.

(01:19:18):
He basically it's um, I don'tknow if you'd call it a history,
necessarily, but it is he sortof walks through all the
different types of apocalypsesthat humans believe in, right
from the religious ones to theclimate change and everything,

(01:19:39):
and how, like pretty much sincethe dawn of time, it's been the
end of the world, you know, andum.
So it's kind of.
It's kind of just going throughthe writings and whatever
beliefs and ideas from varioustimes about various different
ways in which the world will endand humans will cease to exist,
and it's quite fascinating.

Speaker 2 (01:20:03):
From a logical scientific perspective, the
human race will end just likeother species.

Speaker 1 (01:20:10):
Well, yeah, he's not arguing against that.
That is fact.
But he's talking about how we,every generation, has the this
is the end of the world, yeah,belief, and sometimes it's the
same and sometimes it'sdifferent.
He's just going through thedifferent ways in which humans

(01:20:30):
over the millennia have believedthe world would end, including
ours.
Right, anything from religionto climate change, to the bomb,
to all kinds of things, butclimate change is not a myth.
He's not Objection, he's notnecessarily saying myth.

(01:20:58):
That was my word.
The way in which people thinkthe world is gonna end.
Okay, okay, it includesreligion to various mythologies,
to climate change, but he'sjust talking about the way we as
a society talk about it, writeabout it all of that, the
various ways over millenniasthat people believe the world is

(01:21:21):
going to end.
He doesn't say the world isn'tgoing to end, but he's talking
about how everybody at somepoint has believed it was the
end.
Like y2k, we all thought theworld was going to end when the
computers stopped working right,I didn't.
I was very confident it was ohwell, me too, but a lot of
people did I know, I remember Iwas like.

Speaker 2 (01:21:43):
I was like you.
Adults are freaking out fornothing yeah, and for decades a
lot of people believed it wouldbe the bomb, but also possibly
my confidence was because my momwas constantly freaked out that
the world was gonna end and itdidn't, yeah, all the time.

Speaker 1 (01:21:57):
So I was like, I was like no yeah, well, a lot of us
don't buy into that, but thereare people who do and people who
genuinely believe, like,whatever time they're living in
is the end times, sure?
And so he's just going over thevarious ways we think of that
over time.

(01:22:17):
And I've almost finishedrereading the perilous
undertaking, the secondvictoria's speed.
Well, nice, hey, hey, I there'sonly one part I don't buy.
Hmm, so far.
Well, so they're in the grottothe first time, yep, right, and
she's looking at all the dildos,yep, and she somehow doesn't

(01:22:43):
realize what they're used for.
I don't like she's not aninnocent person in every other
way.

Speaker 2 (01:22:49):
She including sex, like she's not a virgin, as she
she tells people all the fuckingtime you know, I thought that
she, I thought that she was justtrying to draw out what's his
name maybe, but it didn't feelthat way to me.
It felt like she genuinely yeah, didn't know or she was just

(01:23:10):
being too pedantic, like what isthis, like you know, yeah, what
is the significant culturalsignificance of this?

Speaker 1 (01:23:19):
thing.
Well, I mean, that's definitelyhow she started, but she
definitely acted like she didn'tknow.
Well, of course, I waslistening to the audio book, so
the way the actor read it mighthave been, yeah, that way.
But yeah, no, I wouldn't havebought that part at all, but I
can't wait.
This is the one where she'slike she whacks somebody with a
dildo, right, yeah, okay, I'mwaiting for that to happen.

(01:23:42):
I think it happens at the end.
Yeah, yeah, what a way to knocksomebody out.
It would have had to have beenlike a glass or wooden dildo.
We have to start carrying dildosas weapons to protect ourselves
?
Yeah, that would be hilarious.

(01:24:03):
Can you imagine that headline?
Yeah, because you know it wouldbe a headline.

Speaker 2 (01:24:10):
Yeah.
If some lady did knock out adude with a glass dildo.
Oh, that would be funny.

Speaker 1 (01:24:19):
Sorry, I'm so pedantic all the time that's
okay, it's all right, but yeah,so that's it.
That's all I got Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:24:30):
Yeah, it's good.
Yeah, I found this one amusing.
I may have liked it better thanthe second one.
Um, you mean the first one?

Speaker 1 (01:24:38):
yeah, you know what I mean.
Yes, so do I.
It's the first one was a little.
It took a while for things topick up, get going.
Yep yeah, are we reading the?
Um, the other series by her,the killers of a certain age?

Speaker 2 (01:24:56):
I was interested in that one.
Yeah, okay, like serial killersof any age, okay, I'm not like
them.

Speaker 1 (01:25:02):
But not serial.
Uh, they're assassins.
Yes, assassins, yeah, better,yeah, lady, assassins.
Uh, yeah, I'm probably, I'llprobably have it done.
They're not gay lady assassinsare they?

Speaker 2 (01:25:17):
they're not what I said.
I said they're not gay ladyassassins are they?

Speaker 1 (01:25:20):
I don't know, I haven't read it killing I don't
know, haven't read it, but Ishould be done with this one.
I'm reading it on my way to andfrom work, so I should have it
done Monday and then we can readthe other one.
Okay, yeah, good, all right, Iguess that's it, but yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:25:39):
I don't like serial killers, but I'm just saying
like that's an interestingfiction?

Speaker 1 (01:25:44):
Yes, I don't.
I think people know what youmeant.
It's interesting in fiction.

Speaker 2 (01:25:49):
Yes, but like a lot of people do, like serial
killers for real though.

Speaker 1 (01:25:53):
That's true, but if they've listened to our thing, I
think they could see that wedon't.
So what is our book again?

Speaker 2 (01:26:04):
Oh, the Dinosaur Book .
Let me find the name.
Let me find the name.
The Dinosaur Artist, obsessionBetrayal and the Quest for
Earth's Ultimate Trophy by PaigeWilliams Awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:26:21):
Okay, so that's our book.
Yeah, I'm psyched.
That's our book and we will begoing over that in episode 38,
yep, which should be twoepisodes from now, and I think
that's it.
So if you would be kind enoughto hit us up on our socials both

(01:26:47):
the episode, the podcast, theepisode the podcast Insta and
Facegram, plus our personalInstagrams, or you can email us
All of that information will bein the show notes and I suppose

(01:27:08):
that's it.

Speaker 2 (01:27:10):
And if you have any theories about who Jennifer
Farragate might have been andwhat happened to her, let us
know.

Speaker 1 (01:27:20):
Yeah, that'd be interesting to see what other
people think.
All right, all right, thanks,bye, bye.

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