The Baker Butcher Part 2

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
we should do our intro.
Oh yeah, um, I'm kiki, let me,let me start again I'm kiki and
I'm rachel, and this is detailsare sketchy, a true crime
podcast.
And uh, you're, you've got yourtea.
I've got my tea, your englishtea I've got my british, your

(00:22):
English tea.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
It's very British.

Speaker 1 (00:24):
It is very British.
I've got a very greenishpeppermint, yeah, and we got our
water.

Speaker 2 (00:35):
And our bellies are full from delicious Thai food.
Did you finally find yourstraight peppermint tea?
I did.

Speaker 1 (00:39):
Where was it?
You mean, where did I get it?
I got it from Target.
Okay, yeah, target Target,along with spearmint.
I'm trying to boycott them, butthey're really hard, yeah, to
boycott, because in the town welive in, I mean the small city
we live in, we don't have awhole lot of options yeah, I
like those damn cookies, aren'tthey?

Speaker 2 (01:00):
delicious they are, they're like I was gonna say
that they're like crack, butthat's probably not a good
analogy.

Speaker 1 (01:09):
They are like a very addictive cookie well, sugar is
incredibly sugar is incrediblyaddictive, so um, okay, so you
are going to do the missingperson.
I am going to finish with thebutcher baker.
Before we do that, I will justsay if you haven't listened to

(01:32):
Butcher Baker Part 1, you shouldgo.

Speaker 2 (01:34):
And do that before you listen to this one.
You gotta go do that, otherwisethis is not going to make much
sense.

Speaker 1 (01:38):
It probably won't make much sense, okay, so.

Speaker 2 (01:42):
All right, let me pull up my one.
All right, so, uh, today mymissing person that I'm covering
is nicholas smith, who wentmissing from las cruces, new
mexico, which I wonder wherethat shout out yeah, hometown in
1991, before I got here yeah soit says he disappeared on

(02:08):
february 23rd 1991 from lascruces, new mexico, with his
mother, edith warner.
They were living in universitypark in the student housing
section of new mexico stateuniversity.
I also lived there not at thesame time, obviously yeah there
was a murder there.

Speaker 1 (02:26):
They found a body of a lady like 10 years ago, 10, 15
years ago, yeah, oh wonderfuloh yeah, I forgot you lived
there.

Speaker 2 (02:34):
Hopefully it wasn't in either of the two units that
I lived in um.
Nicholas is Edith's child fromher previous marriage.
Edith reportedly asked for adivorce in February.
On February 21st, edith toldher art instructor she would be

(02:55):
back in a few hours, but she didnot return, however, and
Nicholas did not attend schoolthe next day.
Nicholas did not attend schoolthe next day.
In 2008, police say theybelieve that foul play was
involved in edis and nicholascases and they remain unsolved
wow, that's like 34 years agoand then later I'll have.

(03:19):
I have another page that goesinto a little bit more detail.
Oh, I, I'll wait.
No, I was gonna give you thenumber, but I should do that
later yes, okay, okay, well.

Speaker 1 (03:33):
So butcher baker part two.
I really have no idea where Istopped.
I believe fulthy has come onboard.
Yeah, last episode we foundthree bodies I went into detail
about two and we also have aliving victim, cindy pulson, who
will come up in this section aswell.

(03:53):
Um, and we also found out whothe murderer was.
It's a baker in anchorage namedrobert hansen in one.
We're going to go back to thecrimes he committed before the
victims we talked about lasttime.
So we're going to go back 12years to November 1971.

(04:16):
It might have been 13 years.
My math is not mathing, I don'tknow.

Speaker 2 (04:22):
You would think that baking would give someone enough
joy that they wouldn't feellike murdering you'd think,
you'd think, but I think hereally only got any jollies from
hunting.

Speaker 1 (04:32):
Yeah, you're surrounded by all that bread,
all that cake I know bread makesyou happy and the best carbs in
the world.
Happy people eat bread yep okay.
So we're going back to november1971 and there is an
eight-year-old real estatesecretary or office assistant

(04:52):
named suzy heppard.
Uh, she was in her car drivingalong, got to a traffic light
and she noticed the man next toher was smiling at her.
And so she looked over andsmiled back at him, as one does,
and that guy was Hanson and hethinks they have a connection.

(05:13):
So, oh my God, yeah, yeah.
So he followed her home,knocked on her door Now Susie
had decided to take a shower Imean, she's just getting home
from work and she answered thedoor in just her towel, yeah,
which that's her prerogative, nojudgment, right, but a dude

(05:36):
like him, he kind of made herthen become a prostitute in her
mind, a sex worker yeah, it'smud.
So he said he needed to make acall and asked if he could see
the phone book for all of youyoungins out there.
We used to have these thingscalled phone books where you
looked at people's numbers.
Suzy agreed and he walked in andasked if they could go on a

(06:00):
date and she said no and thatshe had a boyfriend and he left.
Now, suzy then, I guess youknow, did her thing, went to bed
, got up at 5 am, got dressedand went out to her car.
Hansen was waiting there with agun.
She was understandably scaredand started to scream.
One of her roommates looked outthe window and saw her with the

(06:24):
guy holding a gun and theroommate called the police.
Hanson ran, ditching his gunand hat.
Someone in the documentaryspecifically said hat, others
said clothing, so I'm notentirely sure.

Speaker 2 (06:38):
The police show up.
I'm imagining like a hat andtrench coat, disguise, yeah.

Speaker 1 (06:47):
The roommate.
Okay, wait, wait, he ditchedhis hat.
So the police show up prettyquickly after receiving the call
.
They had a canine unit thattracked him and found some
clothing and the gun.
They also see a guy walkingwithout a coat and he looks a
little out of place, so theystop, stop him.
So I just want to put an asidehere.
While Alaska is cold, you getused to the cold and there are a

(07:10):
lot of people who walk aroundwithout jackets when it's really
really cold out Understandable.
I was one of them at 12 or 13.
And granted, I was an idiot, 12or 13-year-old.

Speaker 2 (07:20):
I feel like when you're younger, you're also more
immune to extreme weather.

Speaker 1 (07:24):
Being uncomfortable, yeah.

Speaker 2 (07:27):
Like I remember I used to walk around all summer
long too, yeah, In 100 degreeweather or whatever, exactly
yeah.

Speaker 1 (07:35):
And then I don't know , my body's like no more.
If it's over 65, it's no bueno,no good.

Speaker 2 (07:41):
I used to not even carry water, which I'm sure is
inconceivable.
But that was like pre when Istarted carrying my water bottle
.
But, like, because in NewMexico they have or used to have
I don't know if they still have, but they used to have a law
that you can't like denysomebody water.

(08:01):
Yeah, deny somebody water, yeah,and so I would just, if I was
thirsty, I would just stop, likeusually like a little doctor's
office, because they wouldalways have like water coolers
and like those paper cups and Iwould just like drink a bunch of
water and then go on my way.

Speaker 1 (08:16):
Yeah, wow, yeah, I was the opposite.
I used to carry my water withme all the time, and now I
hardly ever carry it.
And I've been leaving stuffeverywhere, so that's mainly why
.

Speaker 2 (08:28):
Then you won't piss off Hugh Grant.
Apparently, one of his petpeeves are people who carry
water bottles.

Speaker 1 (08:35):
He's got a lot of pet peeves he does.

Speaker 2 (08:37):
Life is a giant pet peeve for him.
Oh, he's lucky, he's hot yeah.

Speaker 1 (08:50):
Like he's curmudgeonly but, he's fun.
Yeah, if he were an americancurmudgeon, he wouldn't be
nearly as tolerant tolerable.

Speaker 2 (08:54):
It's that british accent very true, like it.

Speaker 1 (08:55):
It elevates everything it does, it does not
always.

Speaker 2 (08:59):
I mean like, for example, pierce morgan right
yeah fuck him yeah, but for hughgrant it works well.
I mean, hugh grant is not likepierce morgan no, he's just
irritated by the world.
Yes, okay.

Speaker 1 (09:17):
So, um, this dude's out walking, he doesn't have a
coat and he seems out of place,and when the police stop him,
it's they it's hansen, by theway, in case you didn't guess.
He told police he was outwalking because he had been out
driving and he started to feelwoozy, so he had parked and
gotten out.
Fair, I suppose.

(09:38):
When he was told why they hadstopped him, his response was
basically that if he did it, hedidn't remember because he
blacked out yeah stick a pin inthat.
We're gonna come back to it,boop.
Okay, good job.
The police tried to get the dato charge him with attempted
kidnapping, but he wouldn't gofor it.

(09:58):
So they charged him withassault with a dangerous weapon.
Despite Despite the seriousnessof the charge, hansen was
released on his own recognizance.
One of the officers knew thathe had been released on his
recognizance and that he justknew in his gut that that was

(10:21):
not going to be the last theywould hear of Robert Hansen.
So he did something that peopleapparently it wasn't the done
thing back then, but he starteda sex offender book and he put
robert hansen's picture frontpage nice.
And so then they kept adding toit every time they came across
a sex offender.
That's pretty awesome in 1971,in alaska as well.

(10:44):
I shit on alaska.
It's a pretty place.
Yeah, there are some.

Speaker 2 (10:49):
There are some people there yeah, no, did I mention I
mentioned last time, right,that one time I read some kind
of article about like how, likeinsanely high like rape and
sexual assault is in alaska yeah, yeah, I think you said that,
okay, so.

Speaker 1 (11:03):
So one month later, patty Roberts, who had done some
dancing at a nightclub inAnchorage, had stopped at a cafe
to get a hot tea.
She remembered she had left hercar running, so she left the
cafe to go out and turn off theengine.
I don't know how you wouldforget something like that, but
yeah.
I mean, I suppose I wouldprobably forget something like

(11:27):
that.
Okay.
So she turns off the engine andthen a man with a gun forces
her into his car.
They drive a bit and then hestops and binds her with
shoelaces.
He tells her that if he's goingto take her down to the Kenai,
which is a few hours south ofAnchorage, and that they would

(11:48):
be together for a few days, hetells her he would not kill her.
I'm sorry, he told her he wouldkill her and anybody who saw
her if she tried to do anything.
Now, Kenai oh, I just said this, it's about three hours south
of Anchorage and it's basicallythe middle of nowhere,
particularly back then.
Now I looked on google maps andit seems to be fairly populated

(12:12):
.
I mean, there's still hugeswaths of right of just nature,
but um, that's where thesasquatch lives uh, so there are
only pockets of people thatlive that far south.
And he also would have herundress, like he would stop, he

(12:34):
would have her take off someclothing and they would get back
in the car so that she wouldn'tor couldn't run away.
They stop at the sunrise moteland he told her she better not
do anything stupid or he'd killher, and he, of course, spent
the night raping her.
You hear on the episode.
You hear him talking about itand basically what he says is

(12:57):
that she did whatever he wanted,like she was clearly like
letting him do whatever hewanted in the hopes that she
would get away, but he learnedat that point that he really
liked that, that she would be sosubmissive yeah, that's gross.
The next morning he told hershe was good, like good at what

(13:19):
she did and that he liked her,so he was going to take her to a
cabin.
She was terrified and triedtalking to him and told him that
she wouldn't tell on him thatshe was a single mother, and in
the course of the conversationhe learned that her child was
staying with her parents.
Now, at some point he decidedto go through her purse and he

(13:41):
finds a piece of paper with herchild's name on it, as well as
her dad's name and their address.
So he told her that he wouldlet her go, but if she ever told
on him he would hurt herparents and her child, and he
ultimately took her back to thecafe where her car was parked

(14:01):
and he let her go.
Now patty's dad was a statetrooper, so they say that in a
sentence and then they never goback to it.
So I don't know if that's thereason why she ultimately went
to the police, yeah or um, ifit's just to illustrate like how

(14:22):
close he right he came togetting caught.
So Patty was very reluctant togo to the police but she did and
she told them what happened.
The trooper she spoke to calledthe Anchorage police and said
they had a rape victim andwanted to look at the sex
offender book.
They had started and said theyhad a rape victim and wanted to

(14:43):
look at the sex offender book.
They had started and of course,as I said before, hansen was
the very first picture in thebook.
Patty identified him right away.
They got an arrest warrant,went to his house and arrested
him.
Now he told police that he hadhired Patty and that there was a

(15:04):
fight over money.
By the end of 1971, hansen wascharged with assault with a
dangerous weapon in both theSusie Hepburn and Patty Roberts
cases.
He was also charged withkidnapping and raping Patty.
Now I just want to point out,because they shit on the police
a lot in this documentary and,granted, even they admitted they
let a lot of these girls down,women down, but I just want to

(15:28):
point out that they did arrestand charge him with these cases.

Speaker 2 (15:31):
It is the prosecutor who decided not to press charges
in Patty's case, so whichreally incensed a couple of the
investigators turn your ire ontothe prosecutor in this instance
in this particular one, I wouldsay, yes, the patty's case was

(15:53):
incredibly strong and um, I feellike sorry to interrupt, but I
feel like there's so many likeissues, right, kinks with the
whole fucking justice system,right, and like, if one party
you know fucks up, like in thiscase the prosecutor, in some
cases the police, then it justfucks the whole thing.

Speaker 1 (16:14):
Yeah, it does, it does.
The prosecutor was reluctantbecause, as he felt that, taking
a case like Patty's, where sheis a dancer and there is some
question about whether or notshe was also taking money in
exchange for sexual favors, thatthe jury would prejudge the

(16:41):
victim because of that.
Okay, so the DA drops Patty'scase and decides to go hard on
Susie.
In the end they make a deal, soHansen wouldn't have to go to
trial, and he then, of course,learned an indirect but very
valuable lesson If you go afterthe dancers or the sex workers,

(17:03):
they probably won't prosecute.
Go after the dancers or the sexworkers, they probably won't
prosecute.
Yeah now, if you remember,hansen had told police that he
didn't remember attacking suzy,and so a psych eval was ordered
and they concluded that he haddisassociative personality
disorder, with schizophrenia,with schizophrenia.
So in March.

(17:25):
That doesn't really have awhole lot to do with anything,
but that's just a thing thathappened, yeah.
So now, if you remember, Hansenhad told police that he didn't.
Oh, I'm sorry, I already didthat In March 1972, he pled
guilty to the assault with adangerous weapon charge in
Susie's case and was sentencedto five years in prison.

(17:46):
You want to get really mad.

Speaker 2 (17:48):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (17:49):
Guess how much time he served.
How much Three months.
Oh, fuck Come on, and then hewas transferred to a halfway
house for like three months,that's like how much time that
dinosaur smuggler served, and Iwas pissed about his sentence.
I know God.

(18:10):
Okay, we'll talk about thatwhen we get to that.

Speaker 2 (18:14):
I thought Is this the time to talk about that book?

Speaker 1 (18:16):
The dinosaur book?
Not yet Today.
Yeah, okay, yeah.
So I think they said that hewent to a halfway house for
three months, but he maybe hadgone for a few years, but
regardless he is out.
What a fucking dick.
So currently he's out and in1972 he gets out after three

(18:36):
months.
So he's out.

Speaker 2 (18:38):
It was march he got sent in so he got out in june my
phone.

Speaker 1 (18:42):
I didn't realize that the ringer was on In 1976,
robert Hansen tries to steal achainsaw from a Fred Meyer
department store.
Dude's an idiot.
He said he wanted to give it tohis dad for his birthday.

Speaker 2 (18:58):
Now in case you're keeping count After he cut up
some women with it.

Speaker 1 (19:01):
Yeah, or, in case you're not keeping account, this
is his third felony yeah, sothere's a question about whether
or not they should throw thebook at him.
But his wife, being the dutifuluber-religious woman she was,
possibly is I don't know ifshe's still alive, possibly is I

(19:25):
don't know if she's still aliveGot a bunch of people to come
forward and say that Hansen wasreally a good guy and that he
deserves a break.
He gets five years.
But his lawyer appealed to theAlaska Supreme Court.
They argue that he could be aproductive member of society as

(19:48):
long as he can get treatment forhis mental illness.

Speaker 2 (19:51):
His alleged DID and schizophrenia yes.

Speaker 1 (19:56):
He served 16 months before he was released on parole
.
He served longer for stealing afucking chainsaw than he did
for trying to abduct a womanthat's about right, that's
that's.

Speaker 2 (20:10):
That's about how society views ladies.

Speaker 1 (20:14):
We are 51 of the population.

Speaker 2 (20:16):
Can we please all just band together and take over
, please, right, please well,that would be great if, like
whatever bad actors and religionand all these things, didn't
set women and non-binary peopleagainst each other.

Speaker 1 (20:33):
True, I know.
That's why I'm saying let'soverthrow everything, let's just
all band together, we'll figurethat shit out later let's just
get to the root of the problemhere, which is men.
I love guys.
I don't know why.
I don't know why I find themattractive and there are good
men.
My grandpa was a really reallygood guy and I know there are

(20:55):
really really good men out there, but men as far as the
institution as far as theinstitutions are, yeah, the
institution are yeah, theinstitution of patriarchy.

Speaker 2 (21:09):
Give us a try.
Yeah, let us do it.
It's true, we can't possiblymake it any worse.
We're so fucking competent.
You know that.
We're so competent, we arecompetent, you know.
Even even I feel like myself,like I.
You not know how to do that, orhow can you not?

Speaker 1 (21:32):
know, actually really funny to be at the front of the
class looking at students,because the women are constantly
rolling their eyes.
Yeah, at the shit that you knowI'm teaching them right like

(21:52):
what men are doing, what they'resaying, yeah, what they're
writing down for perpetuity, andthe dudes are just impassive
you know, like what's wrong withthat right?

Speaker 2 (22:04):
it's like really, really, you can't see it, just
the fucking just the fuckingaudacity, like I remember when I
was in school and many, manyyears ago and I was taking intro
to political science which isfunny because government was my
major, so I was really juststarting out we had some section

(22:29):
and it was talking aboutwomen's rights or something, and
then some whatever 18,19-year-old white dude just
stands up and he's like, well,women, blah, blah, blah.
And I'm like don't fuckingspeak for women, just blah, blah
.
And I'm like don't fuckingspeak for women, just sit the
fuck down.

Speaker 1 (22:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (22:47):
Yeah, Yep, I said that too, because you know, you
know me.

Speaker 1 (22:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (22:55):
I've got a big mouth.
I was like you need to sit downand not speak for women.

Speaker 1 (23:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (23:04):
Okay, now that we're off off, we're gonna keep that
rant for I know a while there'smore.
I've got.
I've got, I think, five pagesmore, okay, okay so we're all
pissed on the table we're allpissed.
He served 16 months for achainsaw, three months for
nearly kidnapping a woman, andhe gets released on parole

(23:31):
because they say, okay, he'llget mental health issues.
Guess what he did?
He didn't get any, of course,of course not.
And oh, you want to be evenmore mad?
Okay, go for it.
He was released without anysupervision.

Speaker 2 (23:46):
Of course.

Speaker 1 (23:46):
So he was released on parole without any consequence,
like he didn't have to doanything.
He didn't have to check in withanybody, yeah, ever.

Speaker 2 (23:54):
No, like piss tests or.

Speaker 1 (23:56):
Nothing.
That's crazy it is fuckingcrazy.
Okay, I'm sorry I'm going tosay the F word a lot in this.
If grandma ever listens to it,fuck this.
She accidentally somehow gotinto, I don't know, spotify or
apple podcast or something a fewweeks ago.

Speaker 2 (24:15):
Did she listen to one of our podcasts?

Speaker 1 (24:16):
no, she accidentally pressed play on another true
crime podcast where, like everyfew words is a swear word,
particularly an f word, and shecouldn't figure out how to turn
it off because she didn't evenknow how she turned it on.
So she like sat there for thewhole time and they just kept
playing because she sat thereand listened to it because she

(24:37):
didn't know.

Speaker 2 (24:37):
She didn't know how to turn it off and they just
kept playing.

Speaker 1 (24:40):
Another podcast, another podcast, the same but
like a new episode.
And so when I I usually call mygrandmother before I come home
so she can put the dogs in theroom, so they don't get out, and
she was like please, hurry home, I can't listen to.
Like there's F words like everyfew things, like I hope this

(25:02):
isn't your show.
I was like dude, that's a guy.
I don't think either of ussound like men.
Yeah, I was like we swear, butMaybe not that much.
Not that much, no, but I amgoing to be swearing in this.
We do this one.

Speaker 2 (25:16):
A lot Not safe for work, things I do.

Speaker 1 (25:20):
We do, I certainly do .

Speaker 2 (25:28):
I feel like I say fuck a lot.
Yeah, I do.
We talked about that gingerlube, ginger flavored anal lube
no, it's a ginger plug.

Speaker 1 (25:38):
Yes, oh, I forgot about that.

Speaker 2 (25:46):
Oh, okay.
So yeah, maybe she shouldn'tlisten to our episode.

Speaker 1 (25:49):
You can't see listeners, but katie just turned
bright red yeah, I can'tbelieve the things I've revealed
on this podcast.
Yeah, um, and I edit it andstill let it go out, right, god,
okay.
So he's released totallyunsupervised.
So we're going to fast forwardto 1979.

(26:11):
And, if you remember, Imentioned that a body of a woman
had been found near the Eklutnapower line.
Now I didn't really go into it,but it was one of the last
things I said in the lastepisode.
She is referred to as EklutnaAnnie.
Hansen told police that hecouldn't remember if she was a

(26:32):
dancer or a sex worker, but thathe was taking her out into the
wilderness.
But his car got stuck and as hewas trying to get it unstuck,
she started to run.
He ran after her, tripped her,got her on the ground.
She begged for her life,no-transcript.

(26:54):
He stabbed her and I believe itwas with her own knife that she
had kept in her purse.
Her body was found thefollowing year 1980, by the
Eklutna power lines.
That's why she's called EklutnaAnnie.
They are still, to this day,unable to identify her.
She is believed to be between16 and 25 years old.
Yeah, we'll get to the ages atthe end.

Speaker 2 (27:16):
I used to carry a knife when I was younger and I
used to walk all around town andI used to carry like a big ass
bowie knife, yeah, in my bag,but these days, yeah, if, if I

(27:49):
had to do that again, I wouldcarry like pepper spray or
something instead.
Yeah, for that very.

Speaker 1 (27:55):
Yeah, they see a lot of people, not just women but
men too and raped at least threeor four women before Eklutna,
annie Mm-hmm.
So in May 1980, 23-year-oldJoanna Messina was camping out

(28:30):
in Seward, alaska.
She was originally from NewYork and was trained as a nurse,
and she had a dog with her.
It's not going to end well.
Just FYI, hanson and Joanna metin.

Speaker 2 (28:42):
It's not going to end well for the doggy.

Speaker 1 (28:44):
Yeah, or the woman Hanson and Joanna met in the
harbor area in Seward where hehad a boat.
They began to talk and,according to him, it turned a
little flirtatious and hethought that she really
According to him.
It turned a little flirtatiousand he thought that she really
according to him and he thoughtshe was really nice that she

(29:05):
liked him.
For him that's kind of a bigthing with his.
Yeah, the women he picks uh andhe wanted to.

Speaker 2 (29:13):
She liked him for him , so he's gonna murder well hold
on, hold on, hold on.

Speaker 1 (29:16):
so he wanted to ask her to dinner him.
So he's going to murder her.
Well, hold on, hold on, hold on.
So he wanted to ask her todinner, never mind that he's
also married but whatever.
He liked, that he believed shewasn't a sex worker and that, as
I said, she maybe liked him forhim and not his money.

Speaker 2 (29:32):
How would she know about his money, didn't he just
fucking met?
Hold on.

Speaker 1 (29:38):
But well, not that he had a lot of money, but that
sex workers, you get paid forsex, so you want the money
that's what I see.

Speaker 2 (29:44):
That's okay.
So that's the standard thathe's going by.

Speaker 1 (29:48):
Yeah but hold on.
As the day wore on, sheallegedly told him she didn't
have any money to get home andasked him if he did, and he also
claimed that she propositionedhim.
Whether she did or not, in hismind she was now a prostitute.

(30:09):
Oh, he drove her and her dogoutside of seward where he asked
uh, where she allegedly equalsokay to murder in his mind yes.
So he drove her and her dogoutside of seward where she
asked for money again.
Allegedly.
He claimed that he threw fivedollars in her face, basically

(30:32):
telling her that that's allshe's worth, and they started
fighting.
At some point he struck her, uh, in the head with the end of
the shotgun and then shot hertwice and the dog once.
Wow, he threw her into a gravel, pit, the gun into the river
and then dumped the dog and herclothes in some woodland.

(30:53):
So she's another victim ofcourse.

Speaker 2 (30:56):
I mean of course he's a horrible person, he's a
serial killer, but how horrible,yeah, plus.
So he's like, he's like lookingfor prostitutes, but then he's
like, oh, I don't think she's aprostitute so she is so great,
even though, like he was lookingI don't think he was to solicit

(31:16):
.

Speaker 1 (31:16):
I don't think he was looking for prostitute at that
point.
Okay.

Speaker 2 (31:20):
But that's like one of his main victim types is
prostitutes.
Yes, that is something that heactively pursues to solicit
prostitutes so that he cantarget them for victimization.

Speaker 1 (31:32):
Yes, but there are also a number of victims who are
not prostitutes.

Speaker 2 (31:35):
Yeah.
That apparently ticked him off.
They're prostitutey enoughaccording to his standards,
exactly like they?

Speaker 1 (31:43):
they reject him.

Speaker 2 (31:44):
I think is the like if you ask for a couple of bucks
for a ride.
I guess that makes you aprostitute it probably wouldn't.

Speaker 1 (31:51):
It probably wouldn't he.
He would see it as a rejectionthat he is not wanted just as he
is, that they only want him,they're only using him.
He has an issue with women andbeing used.
Well, obviously, yeah, I knowthat's obvious, but I mean
that's what he's thinking in hishead.
He wants to have this lovingrelationship with a woman who

(32:15):
wants him for him, never mindthat that's his wife.
But they always seem to rejecthim.
And, of course, because he's afucking creeper, of course I
never consider that.

Speaker 2 (32:26):
Maybe it's you exactly okay.

Speaker 1 (32:31):
Now going forward, uh , to where we left off in the
last episode in 1983, we have, Ibelieve, his.
I forgot to write his titledown here.
I think it was Sergeant GlennFulthe.
He was investigating themurrays of Sherry Margo and
Paula Golding, as well as theother missing dancers.
Sherry and Paula's bodies hadbeen found in 1983, or maybe 82.

(32:57):
Paula's bodies had been foundin 1983, or maybe 82.
Falthy went to the FBI andasked the Behavioral Science
Unit to develop a profile of thesubject responsible for the
crimes.
So the profile said the subject.
It said many things, but theseare the things that should stand
out.
The profile said the subjectwould be an avid hunter with a

(33:21):
speech impediment.
Robert Hansen was an avidhunter with a speech impediment.

Speaker 2 (33:27):
He would have an.
How do they know?

Speaker 1 (33:27):
he would have a speech impediment.
I have no idea he would have anextremely religious wife and
would probably be which he didand he would probably be a very
successful businessman, which hewas Also.
The police had found shellcasings in the graves of Sherry
and Paula, so they sent them offto the FBI as well, and the FBI

(33:48):
determined that they had comefrom the same weapon,
specifically a Mini-14.

Speaker 2 (33:54):
I don't know what that means or what that looks
like, but I was kind of staringoff off, but I was thinking
about how in the novel RedDragon by Thomas Harris, the
serial killer that Will Grahamis trying to pursue, francis
Dollarhide, right, the reddragon, he has a speech

(34:17):
impediment caused by, like acleft palate when he was a kid
and that's part of their killersthat he's done profiles of.
I wonder if he worked on thisspeech impediment.

(34:44):
Like a big thing, do you thinkI'm?
I'm quite.
I mean, I was born with aspeech impediment a lot of
children are yeah, so I'm likewhat is it about that?
That?

Speaker 1 (34:57):
It could be.
I mean, I don't know, I'm just,you know, throwing things at
the wall, but maybe it's theprostitution thing, like if you
pay somebody they can't judgeyou, right, I mean, they can,
but they're not going to judgeyou for your speech impediment.
So it's about their insecuritywith the speech impediment.

(35:20):
It's insecurity and I don't knowwhy.
Speech impediment specifically.
Now that's what they pulled out, that's what the documentary
pulled out.
The thing was pages long sothere might have been other
things, Like if he didn't have aspeech impediment, maybe he had
some sort of disfigurement orsomething.

Speaker 2 (35:44):
I wonder if that is more of an issue I don't know
like historically than thancurrently, because I, you know,
thinking about like older mediaand stuff, there's often
characterizations of people whohave stutters or other types of
speech impediments, is like this, is like a comedic trope or
something like that, and Iwonder if that was something
that really well, yeah, if youremember, he was made fun of in

(36:05):
high school and like I wonder ifthat is maybe not as big of a
thing anymore.
Like I remember when I was a kidmyself and, uh, my sisters also
, um, people used to often thinkthat our speech impediment was
like an accent, like a foreignaccent.
But I don't remember beingparticularly the only.

(36:29):
I remember being mocked by myolder siblings about it, but not
particularly by others, um, uh,but it was something that I I
kind of outgrew, uh.
Well, I mean, I still have itoccasionally, like sometimes it

(36:49):
will slip through and I'll saylike an r, as a w?
Um, but it was something that Iremember particularly like
working on, because I wanted tobe able to pronounce those words
correctly and not have peoplecomment about it.

Speaker 1 (37:12):
Yeah, I don't know.
I mean maybe the making fun ofand the using it as tropes.
Maybe it's because there hadbeen a concerted like
anti-bullying or like a greateremphasis on being kind.

Speaker 2 (37:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (37:31):
Starting in like our generation.

Speaker 2 (38:10):
And I mean.
Yet it's often like white menthat people are like oh, poor
thing, look at their past andthey were bullied, yeah, and,
and you just using that asjustification.

Speaker 1 (38:22):
It's absolute bullshit.
Yes, and, and I didn't mean toimply that's no excuse, I'm just
saying I think and I don'tthink that you did, but I was.

Speaker 2 (38:31):
I just it's a stupid thing.

Speaker 1 (38:34):
It's a stupid thing I mean and obviously I don't
think it's because he wasbullied that he does this.
He enjoys it.
It's just his.
His choice of victim, I think,is comes from that yeah yeah,
yeah, he would do that, whatever, you know no.

Speaker 2 (38:56):
No doubt it ties into that and those experiences.

Speaker 1 (39:00):
But yeah, I'm just saying that it's not an excuse,
not at all.
Exactly.
Yeah, I remember when Columbinehappened, they were always like
they were bullied blah blah,blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 2 (39:10):
Yeah, oh, and also they like blame, everyone like
blame, like Marilyn Manson.
Yeah, yeah or whatever,although I know he's got his
share of problems.
But, like you know, just blameanybody but the actual shooters.
Yeah, yeah, didn't they eveninterview Marilyn Manson?

(39:31):
They were like do you feelresponsible?

Speaker 1 (39:34):
That's so absurd.
It is absurd yeah.

Speaker 2 (39:46):
Crazy times, although I think crazier now, but in a
different way.
In a different way, I mean, westill do do that to a lesser
extent, particularly, I thinkmore so with female artists.
We're like how dare you producethis explicit content?
What if children listen?

Speaker 1 (40:01):
to this.
Yeah, like they aren'tlistening to males.
Right Men do it.

Speaker 2 (40:04):
Exactly, and it's like these people are adults,
they're producing content foradults.
Yeah, and like, don't let yourkids listen to it.

Speaker 1 (40:12):
Yeah, exactly, yeah, okay, now off that rant again.
This is going to turn into avery long episode, sorry guys,
but they don't have the weapon.
They don't have fingerprints orfibers to connect Hansen or

(40:41):
anyone to the murders, andobviously I think this is either
just before DNA became really athing or DNA is super, super
new, because it's like early 80sFulfi, with help from the FBI,
put together a search warrantfor Hansen's home.

Speaker 2 (40:56):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (40:58):
And they know it's about time.
Yeah, they know that serialkillers tend to keep mementos of
their kills and hide them andbring them out at select periods
of time to relive said kill.
One of the things they'relooking for is Sherry Morrow's

(41:32):
arrowhead necklace.
Yeah, his plane, his home andhis bakery.
The FBI take him in forquestioning Now in order to try
and get him to confess.
They try to like psych him outright.
They put a bunch of case filesall over the interview desk.
They had photos of the victims.
They had a big map of the Knickwith a circle drawn saying Bob

(41:57):
Hansen was spotted there.
Hansen denies it at first, ofcourse, and they try to call his
bluff by saying that they knowthe shell casings are his.
He claims that they wouldprobably find them all over
Alaska because he would go up inhis plane and shoot at wolves.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (42:15):
The Sarah Palin of it all.

Speaker 1 (42:17):
Yeah, I couldn't remember her name.
Name, but that's exactly what Iwas thinking.
Yeah, god, he's got an excusefor everything they throw at him
.
Yeah, all they really want issomething to hold him so that
they can keep him in jail inorder to continue building their
evidence.
Now the searches aren't goingwell.
Either they aren't reallyfinding any mementos or a 223,

(42:42):
or was it 233?
, I don't remember and after afew hours, hansen asked for a
lawyer.
So they got to stop questioninghim.
What is this?
Oh so I wrote bodies, but Imeant buddies.
Hanson had some of his buddiesgive false alibis for him in the

(43:07):
case of Cindy Poulsen.

Speaker 2 (43:10):
It's absolutely crazy that they would.

Speaker 1 (43:13):
Well, they don't believe he's a serial killer,
they think he just he's likelook, I did it, but I don't want
my wife to know.
Basically is what he said.
So, as it turns out, the wifeof one of the men drove by the
Hansen house while it was beingsearched, saw and saw what the
police were doing.

(43:33):
I don't know if she, like, wentup to the police and asked what
they were doing or if she justfigured it out on her own.
Either way, she called herhusband and basically told him
to stop covering for Hansen andtell police the truth.
And he does.
Once he told the police, theother friend did too.

(43:55):
Yeah, after his interrogationwith police, hansen was charged
with the kidnapping and rape ofcindy.
But they did, uh, but theystill need evidence against him
for the murders.
And they do finally find some.
First, an officer looks in theattic and under some insulation

(44:21):
he finds a stash of guns andsome bags with jewelry and
driver's licenses in it yeahmost importantly, they find the
arrowhead necklace to connecthim with sherry morrow.
Then they find an aviation mapwith 24 X's marked on it behind
the headboard of his bed.

(44:41):
Now, they don't think much ofit.
At first they think maybe themarks are just hunting spots.
Yeah, they're hunting spots,yeah just not for moose, not for
Moose.
And they wind up, though,showing it to the guy who

(45:01):
investigated the murder ofJoanna Mussina.
And they asked him where hefound her body and he pointed at
the map and he said here, youalready marked it.
Yeah, and then they knew thatit's a map of where the bodies

(45:22):
were buried.
Yeah, four months later, hansenis sitting in jail awaiting the
trial for the kidnapping andrape of cindy and he still has
not been charged with a singlemurder.
Wow, now it was very difficultto have an airtight case against
hansen and he had not confessedto any of the murders.
So it's still very, very, verycircumstantial and also
apparently very complicated witha lot of legalities.

(45:45):
The authorities hint though, uh, that they've got more
information.
They don't, but they claim theydo.
And in february 1984 they get acall from Hansen's attorneys
saying that he wanted to confess.
Yeah, he readily confesses tothe four the police know of the

(46:06):
four murders Sherry Morrow,joanna Messina, eklutna, annie
and Paula Golding.
Yeah, but he makes a mistakeand he actually reveals an
additional murder.
He says he carried her down therailroad tracks and put her out
in the river.
He didn't know her name or anynames of the women he killed and

(46:29):
he didn't recognize any oftheir pictures.
He just knew the locations.
Just knew the locations.
And when he's shown the mapthat they found in his house, he
admits that 17 of those marksdenote bodies.
So that's 17 of 24.

Speaker 2 (46:48):
So what do the other marks denote?

Speaker 1 (46:51):
Don't know.
Hansen agreed to fly with theinvestigators to the marked
grave sites I'm sorry, to thegrave sites so that they could
mark them and they would be ableto find the victims.
Once the snow thawed he wasable to recall within a few feet
where he left the bodies, goingback all the way to the 70s,

(47:12):
that's.
I mean, I guess that's notreally all that surprising, but
considering I can't rememberwhat I ate for dinner last night
Right In the end.
The remains of 12 bodies wererecovered when investigators
eventually returned to the sites.
Yeah, hansen confesses tomurdering 17 women and raping 30

(47:33):
.
Based on his map, investigatorsbelieve there are probably more
and the autopsy reports showthat toward the end of his
murder spree I don't know if youcould really call it a spree,
but you know he was really justwhen they were running.
He was really just sprayingthem with bullets in the back as

(47:53):
they ran away and he would alsostab them after shooting them
as they ran away.
Yeah, uh, and he would alsostab them after shooting them.
The judge handed down thelongest sentence he could under
the sentencing guidelines of thetime, which was 461 years, and
the judge was unsparing in hiscondemnation.
Not only did he content condemnhansen, he condemned the courts

(48:16):
and the police and, in hisestimation or and he also, I'm
sorry, condemns everybody alongthe line that failed, including
society at large If they hadstopped him in 1971, most, if
not all, of those women wouldhave not been raped and or

(48:38):
murdered now.
Hansen died in prison ofnatural causes in 2014 so before
more than he deserves.

Speaker 2 (48:47):
It is more than he deserves.

Speaker 1 (48:48):
First, I want to mention a couple of things.
So first, well, the show andother shows regarding this case,
as well as podcasts, and thatincludes ours tend to focus on
Sherry Eklutna, annie, paula,joanna yeah, I have Paula twice.
Okay.
So Sherry Eklutna, annie, paula, and Joanna and Cindy that's

(49:11):
who I meant all of whom wereeither dancers or sex workers,
or allegedly.
Some of his victims, though,were not, and a few were
actually teenagers.

Speaker 2 (49:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (49:23):
We tend not to talk about those.
So I have a list of othervictims.
Okay so, celia Beth Van Zatten,age 18.
Celia beth van satin, age 18.

(49:45):
Hansen has denied killing her,and he also denies killing any
of the other women that were notinvolved in sex work.
Yeah, okay so, celia.
Celia beth van zieten.
Megan siobhan emmerich, age 17.
Mary kathleen phil RoxanneEastlin, age 24.
Her body has never been found.
Lisa Futrell, f-u-t-r-e-l-l,age 41.

(50:09):
Andrea Mona Fish-Altieri, age24.
Her body has also never beenfound.
Sue Luna, age 23.
Robin Pilkey, age 19.
They found her partial remainsin 1984, but she was not
identified until 2021.
D'lynn Sugar.

(50:30):
Renee Frey, age 22.
She was found in 1985, but wasnot identified until 1989.
Malai Larson, age 28.
Teresa Watson, age 22.
Angela Lynn Federn, age 24.
Tamara Tammy Pedersen, age 20.

(50:52):
So those are the known victims.
I should say I should say um,the.
Cecilia beth van satin um, theythink he did, if I remember
incorrectly, he denies it.
They're not for sure, butthey're like pretty sure, sure

(51:14):
enough to like count her.
Yeah, um, so that's, that's theend of that.
It's a lot of victims.
It is a lot of victims, andthose are just the women he
killed.
That doesn't include the 30women he raped or more.
We got any more to say aboutthat, or?

Speaker 2 (51:34):
that's fucked up.

Speaker 1 (51:35):
It is fucked up it is fucked up and you know it's
really fucked up.
I mean, don't get me wrong, Ienjoy the trope in shows of a
person taking people, likedumping them off into a
wilderness or something andhunting them down.
I know that sounds terrible,but in my fiction I do tend to

(51:55):
enjoy that, because I feel soweird to say enjoy.
I am fascinated by the ideathat a person can do that, like
I'm not.
I know people can kill, butlike that, like that is extreme
to me, to me and um, it'sactually.

(52:21):
That trope is usually based ona, on a short story that was
written, I think, in like the1920s or something, but this
case blends into that well, andso like a lot of shows and
episodes of crime shows, uh,like fictional crime shows, like
svu.
Yeah, take something likerobert hansen and you know,
taking women out into the woodsand hunting them down.

Speaker 2 (52:39):
I thought it was so telling that he doesn't remember
like their names or their faces, yeah, but he remembers like
when and where he killed themyeah, but um, what I was, what I
was saying, is like part of melike really feels I don't know.

Speaker 1 (52:56):
I question, I guess, whether or not shows like that
have a responsibility not to dothat, to perpetuate that.
You know, I go both ways.
I go both ways I don't.
I don't know, because I'm notsaying they influence anybody to
do it.
I'm just saying, in a way, it'slike continuing to publicize

(53:17):
the killer right and make moneyoff the death of victims.
Yep, you know, yeah, good point, but I, you know, and I also
question things like like this,like what we're doing.
You know we're also putting hisname out there.
I said his name many times.
Yep, um, but what I foundinteresting about that episode?

(53:41):
Okay, so I mentioned it in thefirst part, but I didn't mention
it here.
The episode I'm referring to isVery Scary People.
There are two parts.
Yeah, the people that wereinterviewed for this kept
calling him Bob, like they knewhim personally.

Speaker 2 (53:54):
Right, like he's their pal or something, yeah.

Speaker 1 (53:57):
And don't get me wrong, I don't think that these
people have any sort ofadmiration or anything with him,
but it's so weird.
It's just so casual, it's socasual, yeah, that they would
call him by that moniker ratherthan Robert or Hansen or the
killer.

Speaker 2 (54:18):
Yeah, I don't know.
I mean, obviously we're heredoing this, talking about this
stuff, so I mean I think, yeah,it's a hard what's the word?
It's a hard line to walk youknow, because it's like we want
to know like what happened?

(54:39):
Why did it happen?
Like you know who are thesepeople who are capable of doing
this, but at the same time, youknow it's.
You know we don't want toglorify it in any kind of
fashion or celebritize it, youknow what I mean yeah.
That kind of, you know, almostcelebrity level worship of some

(55:06):
kinds of serial killers, youknow, like the more well-known
ones particularly, but overallthe genre, yeah, genre.
So, even that is, yeah, youknow, yeah, kind of almost

(55:26):
fictionalizing it.
Yeah, and it's not, yeah, youknow.
But uh, I mean, I would hopethat our listeners know that
we're not glorifying or no, Imean, I don't think anybody who
listens to true crime.
We're not like serial killerfangirls.

Speaker 1 (55:42):
No, no, and I don't think most true crime is.
I mean, it's out there, butthat's not so much what it is
anymore.
Yeah, people are, I thinkpeople are Much more sensitive
and aware of that.

Speaker 2 (55:55):
Yeah, pitfall yeah.

Speaker 1 (56:08):
Okay, aware of that.
Yeah, pitfall, yeah, okay, soum, do you want?

Speaker 2 (56:10):
to do your the rest of your person and then we talk
about the book.
Ah, yes, we do have to go backto my missing person, which
seems like possibly, like I said, foul play as well.
But yeah, that caught my eyebecause it is a case from our
town.
So vital statistics Nicholas isa white male who was born July

(56:36):
11, 1979.
He has brown hair and hazeleyes and was last seen wearing a
yellow t-shirt with letteringon the front, multi-pocket blue
jeans and white high-topsneakers, and he was 12 at the
time of his disappearance.
His mother, edith, is a whitefemale, was born December 19th

(56:57):
1955.
She has brown hair and blueeyes and she wears glasses.
Her nickname is Sis and she mayuse the last name, deweese, or
the name Tanya Deweese or TanyaWarner, and she was 35 at the
time of her disappearance.
The circumstances the two werelast seen in student housing in

(57:19):
Las Cruces.
They left New Mexico StateUniversity at the time.
Seven days later, edith'shusband filed a missing persons
report.
Edith left behind herthree-year-old son, andrew.
Nicholas was her child from aprevious marriage.
That's kind of suspicious.
Yeah, it is.
They are classified asendangered missing.

(57:41):
So this has a little sectionabout theories about their
disappearance, it says.
From looking at the facts it'sapparent that Nicholas and Edith
were missing voluntarily, atleast at first.
Edith apparently intended toleave her husband and take
Nicholas with her.
They took personal belongingsand money.

(58:03):
Where does a person go if theyhave to get away fast and have
cash and gold and silver on them?
Las Cruces is only 50 milesfrom the Mexican border.
It seems natural Edith andNicholas would go there.
It's easy to cross the borderwhere it used to be yeah, and
they could lay low for a whileand live cheaply without having

(58:23):
trouble from Edith's husband.
Many Americans who wanted toavoid scrutiny for one reason or
the other ended up in Mexico.
This would also explain whythere has been no activity on
Edith's social security numbersince her disappearance in 1991.
She would have had no use forthe number in a foreign country.
However, it seems unlikely thatEdith and Nicholas intended to

(58:47):
be gone this long.
Edith never saw her other sonagain and Nicholas never saw his
biological father again.
Women leave their husbandsevery day, but few of them have
no contact with their loved onesfor over 10 years afterwards.
The two likeliest scenarios arethese that Edith and Nicholas

(59:08):
were running from something alot more serious than is
apparent, serious enough tocause her to jettison her other
child, most of her possessionsand her family and friends.
And they are still hiding inMexico, possibly in one of the
communities of Americans thathave sprung up in that country,

(59:29):
or they may be in fear of theirlives if they return to the
States in whatever drove themsouth, or, more probable, in the
author's opinion, edith andNicholas went to Mexico
intending to stay only a fewweeks at most, then return and
settle back at home, but theborder area is rife with crime
and would be particularlydangerous for a young woman

(59:49):
alone with her child and eleventhousand dollars.
Nicholas and edith would beprime targets for violent
robbery and since they weren'treported missing for a week, the
criminals would have ample timeto get away and cover their
tracks, in which case edith andnicholas may have run out into
the desert Still undiscovered.

(01:00:11):
Either way, the answer to theirdisappearance probably lies
south of the border.
I'm surprised they didn't positthe husband.

Speaker 1 (01:00:19):
Yeah, I don't know what that writer is talking
about.
I mean, why would she say I'llbe back in a few hours if she
was planning to leave, becausethat's going to make that person
worry?

Speaker 2 (01:00:31):
Yeah, exactly I don't know the fact that they say she
was planning on leaving herhusband, the fact that her and
her child from a previousmarriage disappeared, but not
the child that she had with thathusband that she was planning
on leaving.
That is very suspicious to me.

Speaker 1 (01:00:49):
Yeah, and why would she take one child and not the
other Exactly?

Speaker 2 (01:00:54):
Exactly, she would take both of her children.
She would take both, yeah, butthe husband might be willing to
eliminate one child that was nothis biological child.

Speaker 1 (01:01:04):
Right and not the other one.
Yeah, so yeah, I don't know ifI really buy the.

Speaker 2 (01:01:10):
Yeah, I'm not sure if I buy that either across the
border.

Speaker 1 (01:01:11):
Mexico thing.
I mean, maybe they did intendto but that, but didn't succeed.
I don't feel like that was the.

Speaker 2 (01:01:18):
Yeah, no, and they're much more likely to be killed
by somebody that they know thanby some like anonymous criminal
in Mexico, yep.

Speaker 1 (01:01:30):
When was that written ?
Because they said it was 10years.

Speaker 2 (01:01:33):
Yeah, so when was that?
Maybe an older report?

Speaker 1 (01:01:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:01:37):
Great question.
It looks like they're.
It doesn't say when the articlewas written, but it does have
an updated photo and thatupdated photo like

(01:01:58):
age-progressed photo of Nicholas, which was created in 2015.
So maybe the article is fromaround then that time and it
also has a number.
Though, if you have informationabout Nicholas or Edith's
whereabout, please email for thelost at this address.

(01:02:19):
Oh, that's just a link.
Or you may contact the NewMexico State University Police
Department Missing Persons Unitat 5.
Oh yeah, this is old becauseit's got 505.
Person's unit at 5.
Oh yeah, this is old becauseit's got 505.
575-646-3311.
All tips and emails are keptconfidential.

Speaker 1 (01:02:41):
We say old because just what, like 20 years ago,
maybe not even that long wefinally had enough people to get
two zip, two um area area codesin our state yep, yep, 505 is
albuquerque area, yep, downsouth, we're 575 it's true, so

(01:03:05):
that's why I knew that that wasoutdated.
Yes, yes, I was also making acrack at our state.

Speaker 2 (01:03:12):
Yeah.
Very large, but very smallpopulation, yeah, although that
is changing, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:03:21):
To give you maybe we've said this before, but to
give y'all an idea of thepopulation LA has more people in
it than this entire state ofNew Mexico, although we are
getting a lot of theCalifornians here.

Speaker 2 (01:03:36):
Yeah, maybe we'll get a third area code.

Speaker 1 (01:03:38):
Maybe, maybe, okay, and as far as we know, they are
still missing.

Speaker 2 (01:03:47):
That's correct.

Speaker 1 (01:03:48):
There has no been update.
There has not been an update.
Update.
There has not been an update ontheir whereabouts.
So the book we read was thedinosaur artist obsession,
betrayal and the quest forearth's ultimate trophy by page
williams.
I'm gonna make a confession Ionly read up to the part where

(01:04:10):
the dinosaur goes back toMongolia.
Okay, there's still an hourleft on the audiobook, so I
cannot imagine what that is,because, as far as I'm concerned
, the book is done.
Did anything exciting happenafter that?

Speaker 2 (01:04:23):
Or important about uh , what happened, like with the
dinosaur bones after they?

Speaker 1 (01:04:36):
went back to mongolia , their attempts to make like a
museum in mongolia.

Speaker 2 (01:04:38):
I read that part, yeah, yeah.
And then uh, the uhpaleontologist lady, or
archaeologist lady I think theymade a big deal about how she
was shunned or something in thepaleontology circles because she
was technically like anarchaeologist where she studied

(01:04:59):
invertebrates or something likethat.
Some kind of bullshit excuse,of course, why she wasn't good
enough, but she uh worked on, uhmaking like a museum or some
kind of exhibit like at the sitewhere the bones were collected
because they made like aneducational tour bus and they

(01:05:23):
wanted to work on like buildinga museum like at the site right
where the bones are excavated.
The whole project wasforestalled somewhat because
then they got new politicalleaders and shit like that so
and uh, the the guy eric, uh, ittalked about his whatever

(01:05:46):
marital problems, like he yeah,that was before the dinosaur
moon.
But they got a divorce.
Did you see that part?
They got a divorce and then hewas with this other chick and
then they broke up.
But then they like got backtogether and they got married
and then they lived on like afucking boat and he but he was

(01:06:12):
still like under like whatever,like parole or something, and he
served three months in prison.
Yep and his ex-wife realizedthat she would never, that he
would never give up like huntingfossils and shit like that.
And so she's like kind of likeoh, I'm done with him, but not

(01:06:35):
really obviously because theyhave kids together, um.
And then they uh, like in theend of it they uh, eric and his
new wife or whatever, decidethey're gonna take their boat
around like the coast orsomething like that.

(01:06:56):
So they fitted it for oceantravel and that was like the end
of the book.
So not anything reallyparticularly exciting there.

Speaker 1 (01:07:07):
No, um, I was like I do not really care about this
man's story, like no I felt likethis entire thing could have
been like an atlantic or or newyorker article yeah like a long
article yeah careful, but not itdidn't.
It didn't need to be this longof a book, yeah it could have
been a quarter of the book.
Very true, there was way toomuch.

(01:07:27):
Yeah, it could have been aquarter of the book.
Very true, there was way toomuch irrelevant information.

Speaker 2 (01:07:31):
Yeah, yeah, like I don't care about his damn love.
It's like sorry, not sorry, Idon't care about his love story
with his wife and how they metand I don't care about his new
chick and their fucking boat andall that shit.
Yeah, and I didn't you knowlike I felt some sympathy for
the entire profession ofindependent fossil hunters, but

(01:07:56):
I didn't feel any particularsympathy for this character.
Like he obviously knowinglybroke the law multiple times and
then they're like, oh, but he'sa good guy, like take it easy
on him, blah, blah, blah.
Like come on, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:08:15):
Yeah, yeah, I was hoping for more crime and less
personal story.
Like normally I like personalstory, but that was a lot.
That was irrelevant, like Ididn't need to know his mother's
story, Right?

Speaker 2 (01:08:33):
Yeah, I liked the bits where it showed flashbacks
of other fossil hunters.
Yeah, that lady that theytalked about on the coast of
England.
That was pretty cool, eventhough, again, not super related

(01:08:55):
to the actual crime itself, butI think it is nice to see, well
it it?

Speaker 1 (01:08:57):
it relates to the obsession for dinosaurs, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:09:00):
It relates to the obsession of dinosaurs and I
think it showed, like you know,like a more positive portrayal
of how independent fossilhunters can benefit paleontology
and not break the law.

Speaker 1 (01:09:17):
Yeah, yeah, although she would have been breaking the
law now.

Speaker 2 (01:09:21):
Yeah, but at the time I mean that was before the time
.

Speaker 1 (01:09:23):
Yeah, she was not.
A lot of men got credit for alot of her work.

Speaker 2 (01:09:27):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's really fucked up.
It is, but not surprisingfucked up.

Speaker 1 (01:09:31):
But not surprising.
No, not at all.
It's early 1900s.
So was her name Mary Anning.

Speaker 2 (01:09:40):
I can't remember.

Speaker 1 (01:09:40):
I used to know her name because of my thesis.

Speaker 2 (01:09:45):
Mary.

Speaker 1 (01:09:45):
Anning sounds right.

Speaker 2 (01:09:47):
Mary Amming sounds right.
Even that, though, like I'm notsure I needed to know that her,
like older sister, died.

Speaker 1 (01:09:55):
Yeah, no no, that was irrelevant as well.
Yeah, I liked the sciencehistory bit.
I mean, that's my wheelhouse.

Speaker 2 (01:10:04):
That's what.

Speaker 1 (01:10:05):
I got my degree in and I enjoyed the stuff about
the actual paleontology, theactual science, the division and
the discussion of, like the layperson and the academic,
because that happens in historyExactly A lot the thing about

(01:10:26):
that Tucson like rock show.

Speaker 2 (01:10:28):
And that was really interesting.
Yeah, I thought.

Speaker 1 (01:10:32):
And also, you know, a discussion of what does history
, who does history belong toExactly?
And we're still dealing withthat question.

Speaker 2 (01:10:46):
Yeah, who gets to?

Speaker 1 (01:10:46):
study it?
Who gets to own it?
Who gets to study it?
Who gets to own it?
Who gets to own?

Speaker 2 (01:10:56):
it who?

Speaker 1 (01:10:56):
gets to study?
Who gets to own it um?

Speaker 2 (01:10:57):
but uh, so so much of it was irrelevant.
Yep, I was so bored.
Yeah, there was a lot ofirrelevant stuff and yeah there
are definitely parts where I.

Speaker 1 (01:11:04):
I was more bored with this than I was with helder
Skelter.

Speaker 2 (01:11:06):
Yeah, I was mostly horrified by Helder Skelter.

Speaker 1 (01:11:13):
Yes, yeah, horror was that one.

Speaker 2 (01:11:14):
But yeah, even yeah, helder Skelter definitely got
long-winded bits.
Yeah, it just got.
Especially parts where theauthor is like building himself
up and like I don't care aboutyou dude.

Speaker 1 (01:11:26):
Well, I just mean in the sense that there's a lot of
information in Helder Skelter.

Speaker 2 (01:11:36):
Yeah, there is a lot of information.
Yeah, it's like 500 pages ofinformation.
This is a lot of information too, and not all of it is no, no,
and I I understand that she'strying to show eric's obsession
yeah and um, but I think shecould have done it in a few
paragraphs rather than 50 pagesthat he had to take these bones
and put them together and makeit into an actual, complete and

(01:12:20):
realistic, lifelike-looking.
He clearly had a gift, yeah,and so that work was something
that I hadn't really thoughtabout too much or?
Enough appreciation for and inthat sense I was sad for him
because he did all that work toput it together, yeah, and
didn't get anything in returnfor that.

Speaker 1 (01:12:42):
But I'm like it's also illegal but you broke the
law and he knew that it wasillegal.

Speaker 2 (01:12:46):
Like if, if like someone had, if someone had
uncovered that legally, and thenbeen like can you put this
together and I'm gonna pay youfor it?
Like that's the way to do that.

Speaker 1 (01:12:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:13:00):
But so I did feel slightly bad for him about that.
But I was like you knew youwere breaking the law of getting
these bones in the first place.

Speaker 1 (01:13:10):
Yeah, yeah.
It's amazing to me how peopleget so obsessive Because I mean
this is a dinosaur, but there'sbooks about you getting super
obsessed with an orchid.
You know, there's tulip mania,yeah, and it's insane.
Yeah, yeah, I shouldn't sayit's insane it is extreme, it is
insane.
Yeah, yeah, I shouldn't say it'sinsane, it is extreme.

(01:13:32):
It is extreme.
Yeah, we didn't really say whatthe book is about, so in case
you didn't read it, it is abouta people paleontologists, both
lay and academic.
In this particular case, it'sabout a layperson who is

(01:13:58):
obsessed with dinosaurs andfossils and finding them and
putting them together.
And he goes to Mongolia andfinds the bones of a type of
Tyrannosaurus, tyrannosaurusbatar.
Yeah, is that what it's called?
Yeah, tyrannosaurus,tyrannosaurus batar, is that
what it's called?
And um, he illegally brings itback to the united states, puts
it together, tries to sell itthrough the hair.

(01:14:19):
Is it the heritage museum?
Um, and uh, he did all of thatillegally.
And the f not the fbi thefederal government gets involved
and it was because of thatpaleontologist lady, because she
was present at the auction.
She heard about the auction andknew that that type of dinosaur

(01:14:42):
is only native to mongolia yes,yeah, I should have mentioned
that there is a, a mongolianpaleontologist, a woman, who
realizes that he should not havethat.

Speaker 2 (01:14:54):
And so she's the one who.

Speaker 1 (01:14:55):
So she starts stuff and gets Mongolia involved and
the American federal governmentgets involved and Eric is found
guilty and he is sentenced toprison.

Speaker 2 (01:15:04):
She should have gotten so much more credit for
that.

Speaker 1 (01:15:06):
She should have gotten so much more credit for
that.
Yeah, so much more credit forthat.
She should have gotten so muchmore credit for that.
Yeah, but it's a very long bookfor what it is.
Why couldn't we have more storyfrom that lady?
Background story from that lady?
Yeah, yeah, but anyway it's, Idon't know it's not my favorite.

(01:15:29):
The crime didn't even happenuntil like halfway through the
book.

Speaker 2 (01:15:31):
I also wanted to know a little bit more about like
they kind of touch on, like howcelebrities buy these bones and
like things like that.

Speaker 1 (01:15:41):
Oh yeah, it's either Nicolas Cage or Leonardo.
Dicaprio, both of them.
Shame on you, leonardo DiCaprioand Nicolas Cage.
Shame.

Speaker 2 (01:15:48):
Shame.
Well, Nicolas, they both gaveback their bones, but they said
Leonardo DiCaprio, quote unquote, upgraded his to a real T-Rex
skull.
So I was like you didn't learnyour lesson, Leo, Maybe Nicolas
Cage did.
They didn't say anything abouthim getting a new one Kind of
wanted to know more about thataspect, like who's buying these

(01:16:17):
and and like you know what Imean, like having them in their
homes, and so they did touch onthat a bit, but I wanted to know
more about that aspect.
Yeah, yeah, because you can'tlike it's such.
They talk about how it's such ahot business.
Yeah so obviously there's quitea number of people who are in
the market for this.

Speaker 1 (01:16:34):
Yeah, I don't know.
I'm sorry, paige Williams, Iwas not a fan of your book.
Yeah, could have been anarticle.
Maybe it was an article.
I think it started as anarticle.
Yeah, yeah, it's too much of abook, or a shorter book yeah, a
shorter book.
So do we have anything more tosay about the book?

(01:16:56):
Um, we kind of just trashed it.
Sorry page williams.
It was well written, I meanlike it was a readable.
It was readable book yeah, soyeah.

Speaker 2 (01:17:07):
No, I mean, I expected to be more titillated.

Speaker 1 (01:17:11):
I did too.
It sounded like it was going tobe a fun ride.

Speaker 2 (01:17:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:17:15):
The fun ride lost about five pages True.
So okay, next time Katie'ssuggestion.
Oh well, we do have to pick anew book and I do have a
suggestion.
All that Is Wicked, a gildedage story of murder and the race
to decode the criminal mind.
Okay, by kate winkler dawson.

(01:17:37):
So there's that one.
Or the poisoner's handbook bydeborah bloom those both sound
potentially good.

Speaker 2 (01:17:47):
Which one would you like to do?
Both would be fine with me.
Well, let's pick one first andthen we'll do the other one.

Speaker 1 (01:17:54):
Okay, do you want a shorter book this time?
Yes, okay, then let's do thePoisoner's Handbook.
Okay, and then we'll do Allthat Is Wicked.
So let me grab that book so Ican give the information.
Okay, so our next book, fourepisodes from now.
I have no idea what episodenumber that is.
It is called the Poisoner'sHandbook Murder and the Birth of

(01:18:17):
Forensic Medicine In Jazz Age,new York.
Okay, by Deborah Bloom, b-l-u-m.
Alright, so that's our nextbook, four episodes from now.
Okay, we're going to talk alittle bit about what we've been
reading watching.
Let's talk about death of aunicorn.
I've been thinking about thatmovie.

Speaker 2 (01:18:37):
We went to see death all week in theaters.

Speaker 1 (01:18:40):
Yes, it is so upper alley.
The theme of that movie is soupper alley.

Speaker 2 (01:18:45):
I was delighted Entertained.

Speaker 1 (01:18:47):
Yeah, yeah Um okay, I was delighted, I was
entertained.
Yeah, yeah, okay.
So can we summarize it withoutgiving it away?

Speaker 2 (01:18:54):
Yeah, great, great.
So let's see, it is a horrorcomedy.

Speaker 1 (01:19:01):
Heavier on the horror , less on the comedy, but comedy
is still there.
It stars Paul Rudd.

Speaker 2 (01:19:05):
Yeah, it stars Paul Rudd and Jenna Ortega.
Paul rudd, so yeah, it starspaul rudd and jenna ortega.
And, um, it is about a fatherand daughter who are kind of on
a working retreat and theythings start to go awry when

(01:19:26):
they hit a strange animal thatmay or may not be a unicorn, yep
, as, which I don't think is aspoiler, because it's in the
title and also if you watch thetrailer right and it gets it
away as well.
Yeah, so yeah and then yeahthings start to go awry.

Speaker 1 (01:19:45):
yes, involving, involving capitalism.
Yep Down with capitalism.

Speaker 2 (01:19:52):
And there definitely is quite a bit of gore in there.
Yes, there is.

Speaker 1 (01:19:57):
My least favorite kind of gore.
I had a lot of shutting my eyesand closing my ears because
that's like.
My worst kind of horror is the.
Yeah, I guess I can't say it,but, um, yeah it's, it's a lot
of fun.

Speaker 2 (01:20:16):
It is a fun movie despite the horror I mean, don't
go in with like, super, likeit's gonna be this super deep,
super profound kind of yeah, no,no, because it's not.
No, it definitely.
It does have you know itsthemes and yeah, it's, it's.

(01:20:36):
There's definitely times whereyou know that dark humor is in
there and yeah, yeah, there'ssome, definitely some funny
moments.

Speaker 1 (01:20:48):
Yeah, go in with the idea of being entertained.
Yeah, yeah, there's definitelysome funny moments.
Yeah, go in with the idea ofbeing entertained.
Yeah, rather than.

Speaker 2 (01:20:56):
And I think there's, you know, a bit of an homage
definitely to your B-horrorcreature feature.
Yeah, so yeah, Don't expect thecreatures to be hyper-realistic
.
I think that they are a bitunrealistic on purpose.

Speaker 1 (01:21:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:21:20):
Yeah so.

Speaker 1 (01:21:22):
Yeah, it's just a lot of fun.
Yeah, it was a lot of fun.

Speaker 2 (01:21:26):
If you are into going to see movies in theaters, you
know people complain a lot aboutthere not being original films.
So you know, if you have themeans and the time, this is a
good original film to support.

Speaker 1 (01:21:44):
Yeah, and it would be , I think, probably better to
see in the theater.
Honestly, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:21:52):
I think so.
Yeah, there's another horrormovie out currently as well.
That's called the woman in theyard.
Uh, so if death of a unicorn isnot really your speed, uh,
maybe this one is, um.
So I've only seen seen thetrailer for it as well, but
there's like an ominous woman inthe yard and she wants the

(01:22:15):
protagonist's children.
Is the vibe that I get.
So, is she a ghost, is she awitch?
I don't know, but yeah, so ifhorror comedy is not your speed,
maybe this other one might be,but Death of a Unicorn was good.

Speaker 1 (01:22:31):
I've been thinking about it all week.

Speaker 2 (01:22:32):
Yeah, all week.
Yeah, you have.

Speaker 1 (01:22:36):
Not because it's profound Again, not because it's
profound, I don't know, I justreally enjoyed it.
It was just a good romp.
It was a good afternoon time.

Speaker 2 (01:22:45):
It was good, a good popcorn feature it's Paul Rudd.

Speaker 1 (01:22:49):
It was, you know, a good popcorn feature.
It's paul rudd.
How can you?

Speaker 2 (01:22:51):
not want to see a movie with paul rudd.
It's gory.
It doesn't take itself tooseriously no, it doesn't.

Speaker 1 (01:22:56):
No, yeah, it's just.
It's just a really good time,and now I've been seeing
unicorns everywhere.

Speaker 2 (01:23:03):
Yeah, you'll never look at a unicorn the same.
No, I won't.

Speaker 1 (01:23:11):
Do not piss them off.

Speaker 2 (01:23:13):
I'm still waiting for , like a big screen killer
mermaid situation.
Oh God, that would be fun Intothe drowning deep.

Speaker 1 (01:23:22):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:23:23):
Please make it a movie.

Speaker 1 (01:23:24):
That would be fun.
That would be a lot of fun.
I will never go in the oceanagain, though, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:23:30):
I'm not sure if I'm going in the ocean.

Speaker 1 (01:23:32):
anyway, Okay, so that movie we saw together.
Rachel's been seeing some othermovies, so since this is
already so long, maybe justgenre and title.
Yeah, and whether or not theywere a good time of the movies
that I saw, yeah, okay, uh.

Speaker 2 (01:23:52):
So I saw alien romulus and I thought that was
quite good.
Um, I five stars, nosferatu 4.5stars.
I sawa found footage, uh, aparaguayan found footage called

(01:24:21):
uh, no interest that one I wouldsay like three and a half stars
, like is a lower budget, uhfilm, an independent film, and I
thought that it was pretty fun.
Uh.
So I think it's worth a watch.
Um, and I saw did I talk aboutgo jam haunted asylum last time?

(01:24:43):
Because I feel like maybe I did, but I'm not sure I don't know
how long it's been, I don't know.
I watched go jamylum and Ithought that that was a 4, maybe
4.5 stars.
It's also found footage,similar kind of haunted theme.
I thought it was quite wellexecuted but I was interrupted a

(01:25:06):
lot while I was trying to watchit.
That's no fault of the film.

Speaker 1 (01:25:13):
Y'all saw my Best Friend's Wedding again, oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:25:16):
I did see my Best Friend's Wedding, so also a
solid film, but I watched itfrom like a free streaming
service and there were so manyads that I found it extremely
disruptive yeah.
Yep, and I think that that isit.
I'm trying.
Oh, I also watched the fourthkind, which is this is kind of a

(01:25:39):
semi found footage, likemockumentary style.
Um, found footage, uh, alienabduction film starring Mila
Jovovich.
So I thought that that waspretty good.
I would say four stars, prettysolid, alien abduction.
Nice, if you're into that kindof thing.
All right, and yeah, that's it.

(01:26:01):
Nice, cool.
What did you read?
What did I read?
I read Our Share of Night by.
I want to say her name ismariana, let me pull up the good
reads thing.
Yes, mariana enriquez, and canI?

Speaker 1 (01:26:20):
see the um, the the picture.
Yep, okay, I've seen that.
That's put like it's.

Speaker 2 (01:26:27):
Everybody loved it yeah, yeah and yeah, and I did
love it as well.
It's like a sweeping epic thattakes place over like quite a
period of time in Argentina,from like the early 1900s until
to like the 90s Oops, here we go.

(01:26:48):
The 90s, oops, here we go.
And, however, and it jumpsaround in time and in POV.
And so I enjoyed that because Ifound it to be engaging like in
that you know it's not just likea linear, you know long story
that is told from oneperspective.

(01:27:08):
I think it's a little moreengaging that way and it has a
very heavy backdrop of likeArgentinas, like how do you say
Argentina?

Speaker 1 (01:27:23):
Argentinian.

Speaker 2 (01:27:25):
Yeah, history and political stuff, and it is about
basically like a cult that isseeking immortality from dark
forces and the characters thatthey are trying to use in order

(01:27:46):
to make that happen.
But, of course, thosecharacters are autonomous people
who have their own ideas.
It is not a vampire story.
So, I heard it was a vampirestory and it seems like that was
it.

Speaker 1 (01:28:01):
I thought it was too.
I was going to pick it upbecause it was.

Speaker 2 (01:28:04):
Yeah, it seems like Well, I think you would still
enjoy it because you really likecults and stuff like that.
So it is, from what Iunderstand, it takes aspects of
like Argentinian, like lore andshit like that, which I'm not

(01:28:27):
super familiar with.
But yeah, there's magic, thereis the.
Some of the characters aresomewhat monstrous in a way and
there are aspects where you'relike this could be adjacent to
vampirism, but it's not vampires.
So so don't go and think it'svampires, because that was my
mistake and I was.
I kept waiting for, like, thevampires to fully develop and

(01:28:49):
they it never.
That never happened.
So I think that, think that,yeah, I enjoyed it a lot, but I
would have enjoyed it more if Ihad known that it wasn't
vampires and not expectedvampires to occur, right.
So, and the other book that Iread was sweet pea by cj.
Sweet Pea by CJ Skoos.
So that is a movie about Amovie or a book Sorry, a book.

(01:29:14):
It is a book, but it's been madeinto a show now, I believe,
about a female serial killer andit's from her POV.
So yeah, I had high hopes forit, like kind of a mayfly
situation and they kind ofdescribed it as like Bridget
Jones is a serial killer and itwas kind of that.

(01:29:36):
It was okay.
It's okay.
It wasn't as good as I hadhoped it to be, but it was fine.
Yeah, so Well, cool yeah, and Ithink that is it I think I
talked about.
Everyone in this room willsomeday be dead last time.

Speaker 1 (01:29:52):
I think so.

Speaker 2 (01:29:53):
So, yeah, that's it for the new books.
Our share of Nightbook wasquite a big one.

Speaker 1 (01:29:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:29:59):
That's what she said.

Speaker 1 (01:30:02):
So the only movie I watched was Death of a Unicorn.
I got sucked into YouTube waytoo many times, um, but I found
some stuff done by dutch people.
I mean, they're minimalists so,yeah, we don't click on that
part.
But I kind of feel like I youknow, the proverbial stork took

(01:30:25):
me to the wrong place.
I feel Dutch.
They're very direct people.
They don't have to be polite.
Yeah, that's nice, and they havea word called Nixon, which
pretty much means doing nothing,and by doing nothing meaning

(01:30:45):
just staring at the ceiling orwatching the clouds go by.
Like your mind is clear, you'renot doing anything, and they
cultivate that you know, andthey have a culture that they
call sixes, so it's based ontheir grading system, which is
one through ten right.
Six is what you need to pass.
That's what they aim for.

(01:31:06):
They start to worry if you getover a six, because that means
that you're not well adjusted.
But you're spending too muchtime on one thing.
You should be spending moretime with your family, with your
friends, doing nothing relaxing.
You don't want to be stressedout like we Americans are, and

(01:31:29):
that speaks to my.

Speaker 2 (01:31:29):
So there's not a culture that everything is work
and you have to work until youfucking die.

Speaker 1 (01:31:34):
Yeah, exactly.
So it just speaks to my.
I'm not saying they're lazy,but in America I am lazy, but I
feel like if I were in Holland Iwould be normal.

Speaker 2 (01:31:47):
Yeah, they have a more balanced perspective.

Speaker 1 (01:31:49):
They have a more balanced perspective on life,
and so, and plus, I loved it,the like five hours I was there
the nicest people in the worldwhen Hania tried to get out of
her thing.
Anyway, that's a story foranother time.
Yeah, but it was, I don't know.

(01:32:11):
It was just fun watching thosevideos and knowing that there
are people like me out there.
I may be a terrible American,but there's somewhere out there
that I actually belong, right,so I watched quite a bit of that
.
But I also, technically, I,read quite a bit.

(01:32:32):
I just didn't finish anything,so I read the majority of the
book.
We were today the dinosaurartist.
I started a memoir called Earthto Moon by Moon Unit Zappa.
So Zappa's Frank Zappa daughter, right?
Um, she's, does she go by moonunit?

(01:32:55):
I, yeah, or maybe just moon,yeah jesus.

Speaker 2 (01:32:59):
Just think about how david bowie named his son zoe
bowie, but then later he changedhis name to douglas.

Speaker 1 (01:33:06):
Yeah, she kept her name.
Yeah, um, her brother, I think,changed his name, but, um, it's
moon unit.
I didn't.
You know.
You would think that it's moonunit as in like a unit of the
moon, but unit as in, familyunit.
Yeah, so it's separate, anywayit's.
It's interesting.

(01:33:28):
I'm not really a celebritymemoir person, but it sounds
interesting.
And if you don't know who sheis, besides being Frank Zappa's
daughter, she is the voice ofthe Valley Girl on his Valley
Girl song.
She did the gag me with a spoon, I can't really do it, but yeah

(01:33:50):
, and she's also she's writtenfiction.
One of the reasons I picked itup is because I read her novel
many, many, many years ago, likewhen it first came out.
I'm not saying it's a greatnovel, but I knew it was kind of
based on her life and itsounded fascinating.
So I read it and it wasfascinating for what it was and

(01:34:12):
enjoyed it.
So I thought I'd give her amemoir a try.
Okay, um, she, let's see.
What else did I pick up?
I picked up, um, a book calledthe sirens call by chris hayes.
Now he's a journalist but he'skind of obsessed with the idea
of attention as a resource, as avaluable resource and it is

(01:34:34):
very valuable today it's one ofthe big ones, and I'm only 19
pages into it, so I don't reallyknow his arguments or anything.

Speaker 2 (01:34:43):
I don't think we acknowledge that enough.

Speaker 1 (01:34:45):
No, I don't, and of course he's like that too, or
he's basically saying that too.
Oh, the one I'm the farthest inis a book called I keep wanting
to say it's the Creative Circle, but it's not the Creative
Circle.
It's like the Creative Art orArtist or something like that.
But it's a book.
You notice it.
It's like a gray book and ithas a giant circle with a little

(01:35:09):
colored in circle in the middle.
It's by Rick Rubin who is afamous and very successful music
producer.
I'm blanking on the names thathe has produced, but I geared to
you.
Even if you don't listen to him, you know who they are.
Okay and parts of it.
I like the name Rick Rubinsounds familiar to me some of it

(01:35:29):
I really like, but he is quitewoo-woo and he's also a bit
anti-science not a bit, he's alot, one of the things that
irritated me.

Speaker 2 (01:35:39):
What is it with rich people and being woo-woo?
What is?

Speaker 1 (01:35:42):
that I don't know.
He talks about the source,which I mean I could kind like
people talk about artisticpeople, creative people talk
about the muse, so fine,whatever, but he's talking about
it in the way that, like a lotof tarot readers talk about it
and astrologers.
But I guess one of the thingsthat irritated me the most is
that, like he, I'm fine with theidea.

(01:36:06):
In fact, I applaud the newdefinition of creativity, which
is that we are all creative.
Having a solution for a problemis a creative idea a creative
endeavor, yeah, very true,starting a business is creative,
because I always feel likesorry

Speaker 2 (01:36:23):
this is like I don't know, like people who are deemed
creative are like held up onthis, like pedestal.
And I always felt frustratedbecause I never felt like I'm
particularly creative, like Idon't produce any kind of art.

Speaker 1 (01:36:40):
You know what I?

Speaker 2 (01:36:41):
mean, but yeah, I am pretty good at like problem
solving or like getting out ofsticky situations, if I do say
so and yeah that is a type of itis it is, he does not.

Speaker 1 (01:36:53):
However, and this, this part, pissed me off and I
had a little argument with himin my head uh, well, maybe
screaming match would be better.
I screamed at him in my head isthat everything is creative
except science?
Science is not.
It is one of the most creativefields out there.
It is you can't do, the youcan't come up with a hypothesis.

Speaker 2 (01:37:14):
You have to create a hypothesis.

Speaker 1 (01:37:15):
Yes, exactly you can't do that unless you have an
imagination Dude.

Speaker 2 (01:37:21):
Like have you ever read like an experimental like
or a book about experimentalphysics?
Like, how do they come up withthis shit?
Yeah, it's very creative andlike science.
Right is the exploration of theworld?

Speaker 1 (01:37:38):
yes, and you cannot explore the world unless you
have a curious and creative mindyes, exactly, yeah, um, so that
I was a little irritated bythat.
But other than that, it'smostly musings.
It's generally careful, it'sgenerally put in as like a
creative self-help book and Ican kind of see parts of that,

(01:38:00):
but it's mostly just musings onart and the creative process and
creativity itself, and what isit and how do we get it.
I mean, it's a fun book to read.
It's just parts of it areridiculous.
Yeah, and then we've picked ourtwo new books that we're just
reading on our own.

Speaker 2 (01:38:24):
What's the one you picked?
Oh, it's To Be Devoured bySarah.
What is her last name?
Tatalinger, I want to say, letme check and it's a horror
novella.
Yes, it is a horror novella.
It's supposed to be likeextreme horror that possibly
deals with cannibalism.

(01:38:46):
So don't read it while you'reeating yeah, it is called to be
devoured by sarah tantalingersoon.

Speaker 1 (01:38:56):
Yeah, and I picked a reread.
We're gonna do east of eden byjohn steinbeck, one of my most
favorite lady villains of alltime.
She's fantastic, catherine, youshould see.
If you don't want to read thebook, you should see the jane
seymour version of the movie.
It's fairly accurate to thebook and she is amazing as

(01:39:22):
catherine in that movie nice, soif you're gonna ever get a hold
of it.
It's hard to get a hold of, butif it's hard to get a hold of,
but if you can, it's a good film.

Speaker 2 (01:39:30):
With the digitalization of media, some
stories are disappearing or veryelusive.

Speaker 1 (01:39:38):
Yeah, yeah, okay, so I think that's it.
Yeah, what else are we?
That's it.
So our next book is thePoisoner's Handbook by Deborah
Bloom.
That'll be four episodes fromthis one.
Please like, subscribe,download, review and follow us

(01:40:07):
on our socials.
We have them both for thepodcast itself and our
individual ones.
They will be in the descriptionbox and thanks for listening.
Thanks for listening.
Oh, email us.
Give us an email.
Yeah, ask us questions.

Speaker 2 (01:40:25):
Have you checked it lately?

Speaker 1 (01:40:27):
I can check it right now, not for a while, okay, so
do all those things for us.
We'd greatly appreciate it.
And next time it's going to beRachel's true crime story, yep.
So have a good one.
We'll see you in a few weeks.
Bye, bye.

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