The Case of Ryan Waller and Heather Quan

Send us a text

It's Rachel's turn this week, and she doesn't disappoint. She tells us about the Ryan Waller and Heather Quan case. There's no missing person this week, but as always, we chat about what we've been reading, watching, and listening to.

Our next book is Deborah Blum's "The Poisoner's Handbook: Murder and the Birth of Forensic Medicine in Jazz Age New York." 

Sources:

Murder With My Husband - "The Infamous Interrogation of Ryan Waller"

Weird True Crime - "Ryan Waller and Heather Quan" by Billy Skeleton

Unilad - "Murder Suspect Interrogated for Six Hours Before Police Realize He's Been Shot in the Face" by Tom Wood

Medium - "Ryan Waller's Story"

Maricopa County Attorney's Office - Larry Loyd Carver Convicted for 2006 Murder of Heather Quan"

Get in touch with us:

Instagram: Details Are Sketchy - @details.are.sketchy
Facebook: Details Are Sketchy - @details.are.sketchy.2023
Instagram: Kiki - @kikileona84
Instagram: Rachel - @eeniemanimeenienailz
Email: [e-mail] 

 

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Kiki and I'm Rachel, and this is.
Details Are Sketchy A truecrime podcast, and this is a new
episode.
We're not even gonna pretend toknow which number this is.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
This is certainly an episode, and it's distinct from
the ones that came before thatis true.

Speaker 1 (00:18):
So, um, you don't have to hear my voice doing
doing during doing doing themain.
Unfortunately, you will have tohear my voice doing doing
during doing doing the main,unfortunately.
Uh, you will have to hear myvoice story.
No, not unfortunately.
I'm sure they're tired of me.

Speaker 2 (00:30):
It was three episodes three in a row, you've got a
funny voice though I think I dotoo.

Speaker 1 (00:35):
I think I sound like a mouse.

Speaker 2 (00:36):
Well, maybe people who like funny voices dig our
podcast they like mousy.

Speaker 1 (00:44):
And what would you say?

Speaker 2 (00:45):
yours is I don't know , I don't know what mine is,
just weird, odd to me you'rejust rachel, so I don't like
hear a, an odd.
Someone told me I once I havean interesting timbre to my
voice, huh.
So I don't know what the fuckthat means.
I don't know either.

Speaker 1 (01:07):
I don't know either, I get.
You have an interesting accenta lot of the time by Americans
primarily.

Speaker 2 (01:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
I always want to know where I'm from.
I'm like I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:19):
Well, and you've lived all over.

Speaker 1 (01:20):
And I've lived all over, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:22):
You have an international accent.
Sure over, and I've lived allover.
Yeah, you have an internationalaccent.
Sure, I was gonna saycosmopolitan, but I know that's
like a specific thing, isn't it,where people sound really
bougie?
Like this or something.

Speaker 1 (01:35):
That's not it, but yeah, I know what you meant.
Yeah, I used to want to have anaccent like katherine hepburn,
which is like very northHampshire-y, I'm sure, but also
it sounds so educated.
Yeah, but I could never mimicit.
Wouldn't that be an interestingtalent to have mimicry.

Speaker 2 (01:59):
Yeah, it would be.
Speaking of that, I watched.
I was watching a Q&A with someof the cast of steven universe
and voice actors.
They just blow me away.
Don't like how they can like doall those things with their
voices yeah, and I mean justtheir.
Their original voices, alreadyright, are very interesting and

(02:23):
unique.
That's yeah why they are voiceactors.
But then they can like pull outthis whole arsenal, yeah, of
other voices yeah, like the ladydoes.

Speaker 1 (02:34):
Bart simpson.
Yep, yeah, did you know she?
I mean, I don't know, I have noidea why I know this piece of
information, but she is the auntto Sabrina Carpenter.
I did not know that.
I don't know why.
I know that.

Speaker 2 (02:51):
My daughter's therapist.
Her first name is Sabrina andher second name is a C name.
I don't want to like out mydaughter's therapist but like
yeah, it's Sabrina C something.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's sabrinac something.
Uh, yeah, and I made anappointment with a psychiatrist

(03:11):
and I was like her therapistsaid this and that and uh, the
receptionist was like what's thetherapist's name?
And I was like sabrinacarpenter and he was like, uh,
isn't that a celebrity?
I had to think about a second.
I was like, oh shit, yeah, Imean, and I was like it's not

(03:31):
that, but it, it sounds justlike that.

Speaker 1 (03:35):
So then I had to go like through my contacts and
like look up her real name, likeI swear I'm not making this up,
it's probably like bullshit,like she doesn't even have a
therapist, she's just saying thenames of celebrities, um, okay,
anyway, I am a bad person and Idon't have a um witch magic or

(03:56):
I've had a day I was planning ondoing it this morning but we've
had some, uh, some issues.
It happens, it does happen.
It feels like it happens a lotmore often these days yeah but
maybe that's just because I'm inthe loop.
Your responsibility more, yeahum, okay, yeah, so I don't have

(04:17):
a missing person, so we're gonnago with, uh, just rachel yep,
just rachel is missing justrachel is missing.

Speaker 2 (04:26):
There you go.
Um, okay, so my case is thecase of ryan waller and heather
kwan, and, uh, I want to shoutout my wife jay, because, uh,
they were the one who broughtthis case to my attention.
I was like I don't know who todo.

(04:48):
I don't know what case to do.
They were like how about thiscase that I heard about, and
yeah, so that's what I'm doing.

Speaker 1 (04:57):
How long ago did it happen?
Or you're gonna tell me, Isuppose.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
Ah yes, I am about to tell you.
Okay, that happened in December2006 in Phoenix, arizona, the
land of eternal sunshine andblazing heat.
Hell on earth.

Speaker 1 (05:17):
Yes, it is.

Speaker 2 (05:20):
And so this concerns a young couple, ryan Waller, and
his girlfriend of eight months,heather Kwan.
They I think that she had justmoved in or recently moved in

(05:41):
with him and they were going tospend the holidays together.
They were going to both dotheir you know family stuff
together On Christmas.
Ryan's family expected him toshow up to Christmas dinner but
he never did and that wassurprising and concerning and so

(06:04):
they're like what is even goingon?
And he was supposed to bringHeather with him as well, and so
they were concerned.
So Ryan's father got worriedand he decided to do like a well
check, like an official wellcheck, including the cops and
stuff, because Ryan wasn'tanswering texts or calls or

(06:27):
anything like that.
And uh, so, uh, this accountwell, there's a few different
accounts and they differ.
We, we know how this goes right.
Yeah, of course, one accountlike he just went to the door or
whatever.
Another account he lookedaround and like through some of

(06:47):
the windows or whatever and sawsomebody slumped on the couch
and that got him even moreworried.
In the first account, the copsalready were with him.
In the other account, that'swhen he called the cops, but it
said they were waiting for asearch warrant.
However, that's when he calledthe cops, but it said they were
waiting for a search warrant.
However, here's again twodifferent accounts.

(07:10):
One account says that theirroommate arrived home and let
herself into the house and soafter the cops saw that, they
knocked again and she answeredthe door and allowed them entry
into the house.
However, another accountdoesn't talk about a roommate at

(07:32):
all and says that it was Ryanwho answered the door.
That's a big disparity.
It is a big disparity and Ithink I know why, but I'm going
to talk about that later.
Another account yes, it wasRyan himself who opened the door

(07:53):
.
This account reported thatstanding there in the door was
Ryan himself.
He was alive, but he had anintense bruise over one eye and
his eye was swollen shut andalso some other scratches and
bruises on his face.
And at that point the copsasked him Hi, are you Ryan

(08:15):
Waller?
But he didn't reply.
He just kind of looked at themand so they informed him they're
there to conduct a welfarecheck.
Uh, because of the call thathis father placed and telling
him that the reason that hisfather was concerned is because
they missed the Christmas dinner.
Once again, ryan didn't reallyrespond.

(08:37):
It just kind of was staring atthe police, according to this
account.
Uh, so the cops kind of try topeek around the house and in
this report that's when theynotice that there's, like, the
body of a woman or there's awoman lying on the couch.
They don't know what kind ofstate she's in.
They ask Ryan hey, whathappened to your eye?

(09:00):
Why is it black?
Why is it swollen?
Once again, he didn't sayanything.
And so the cop points out hey,there is a woman on the couch
behind you.
And is that your girlfriend onthe couch?
Uh, and they told him that, hey, your dad told us that she was
supposed to come along too.
So they want to check and makesure she's okay too.

(09:23):
And Ryan responded I don't know.
And ryan responded I don't know.
He says I don't know who's onthe couch.
So they're like okay, well, isthat a woman back there?
Is she asleep?
And at that point, uh, thisaccount reports that ryan became
defensive, saying like I don'tknow again, but like, kind of

(09:44):
belligerently, he seemedconfused but also not
cooperative.
However, eventually they didget him to step aside and let
them in.
What they found inside was thebody of his girlfriend, heather
Kwan, lifeless on the couch.
His girlfriend, heather kwan,lifeless on the couch.

(10:09):
Ryan was there alive, but againwith that massive black eye.
He had dried blood on his faceand so, being the boyfriend and
that, coupled with his oddbehavior, immediately the
suspicion was on him as asuspect as the suspect really,
with the police uh thinking thatthis had been a domestic
dispute gone wrong.
So ryan was taking, taken intocustody while they processed the

(10:35):
scene.
So ryan was taken to a policecar and put in the back seat of
it, basically in holding, andthat report says that when he
came out his dad was relieved tosee him but he was like, why is
he in cuffs?
Phoenix police had dispatchedparamedics for Heather to assess

(10:59):
the situation.
When they arrived around 1.30am, rushed into the apartment to
tend Heather and confirm thatHeather was in fact dead.
So at that point the responderswalked back to their vehicle
and drove away, never having seteyes on or examined Ryan.

(11:19):
So Ryan spent like four hoursin the back of that police car
and eventually he was taken intothis station around five in the
morning and they start alengthy interrogation and this

(11:40):
is really kind of infamousbecause it's caught on tape and
you can go watch the tapes onYouTube.
It's kind of hard to watch.
Um, so ryan has been changedinto like a white jumpsuit and
he's uh, sitting in his chair,he's handcuffed to the table and
he is fidgeting.

(12:01):
Uh, he looks uncomfortable, hiseye is severely bruised, like,
even though the camera is likeone of those ones up in the
corner of the room, like you cansee that his eye looks
completely blackened.

Speaker 1 (12:16):
Wow that's very visible, yep.

Speaker 2 (12:19):
Yeah, it looks bad right.

Speaker 1 (12:21):
Yeah, it does, but it does look like a black eye.

Speaker 2 (12:25):
It does look like a black eye, but there is more,
and I'll show you that lateractually.
So he's fidgeting in his chair,he has obvious discomfort, he's
shifting, he's moaning underhis breath, he's acting like he
has a really bad migraine orsomething.
I know how that feels, yeah.

(12:47):
And now he's waiting, waiting,waiting for like 10 minutes.
He's cuffed to the table and itseems like he's not sure what
to do.
He looks at a piece of paper,he keeps trying to get up and
like he'll stand up, and then herealizes he's cuff's, coughed
and sit back down.

(13:08):
And then a bit later he tries tolike stand up again and he does
that several times, so it'slike he doesn't realize, he's
not realizing that he's coughedRight.
So finally a cop enters theroom, takes some pictures of his
injuries and even tells himhe'll eventually get some sleep.

(13:29):
He keeps asking to go to sleepyeah, because he's moaning.
And he's repeatedly saying, one, he wants to go home and two,
he wants to go to sleep.
Does that behavior remind youof anything?

Speaker 1 (13:40):
That he wants to go home and go to sleep.

Speaker 2 (13:42):
It's the kind of behavior that people have when
they have a concussion.

Speaker 1 (13:46):
Oh Well, that's not what I was thinking.

Speaker 2 (13:50):
In the video and you would think that cops would know
that right.
They're supposed to know shitlike that right.
What?

Speaker 1 (14:00):
basic kind of things.

Speaker 2 (14:01):
I don't think that they would.

Speaker 1 (14:03):
You think they should , though they probably should,
but I don't think that theywould.
You think they should, thoughthey probably should, but I
don't think they do.

Speaker 2 (14:07):
I mean, like a concussion is a really common
injury.
So in the video the detectivecomes in and takes photos.
He tells Ryan he's not goinganywhere when Ryan is asking to
go home and go to sleep.
And if he does go anywhere, thecop says it's going to be to a
hospital.
So obviously he sees thatryan's not doing so hot right.

(14:31):
And ryan says why?
Because my eye.
And the detective says yeah.
Ryan asked does my eye look bad?
And the detective says yeah, Iwould say it's bad.
So remember that, remember that.
And throughout this Ryan ismoaning under his breath and
shifting around, looking for allthe world like a man in a great

(14:53):
deal of pain and discomfort.
So that detective leaves andafter a while the interrogating
officer comes into the room,which is lead detective Paul
Dalton.
So he starts trying to makesmall talk.
He asks if Ryan has seen likecop shows or lawyer dramas.
Ryan says I don't know.

(15:14):
But it doesn't stop there.
He asked Ryan then if he knowswhy he's being questioned.
Ryan says no being questioned.
Ryan says no, he seems fidgety,he seems in distress, he can't
stop moving.
It could seem like he'suncomfortable.
He could also say maybe itlooks like he's agitated, yeah,

(15:36):
so he points to his face and heasks the cop, is it really bad?
The detective then begins toread ryan his miranda rights.
He asked ryan if he's ever seencops to try and explain to him
what he's doing, and ryan againsays no.

(15:56):
The detective is like you'venever seen cops and he's like no
.
And the detective's like well,I renew your rights.
And then after a pause, ryansays yes, I have seen it.
So the detective's already likeokay.
And after the detective readsRyan his rights, he asks him

(16:20):
what's the highest grade youmade in school?
Like he's trying to get somebackground information on him.
And ryan says I don't know, Idon't know.
And he's like did you graduate?
What's the highest grade?
And he says eighth grade.
Not true, right, by the way.
Yeah, uh, did you graduate?

(16:43):
Ryan says he doesn't know.
The detective says do you havea GED?
Ryan doesn't know, he wants togo home.
He reiterates.
So the detective asks him okay,do you have a girlfriend?
And Ryan just doesn't reallyanswer.
He seems blank out.

(17:03):
He asks does he know Heather?
Because Heather is the woman onthe couch.
No response and he says againdo you know Heather?
Ryan says mm-hmm and he saysokay, what's Heather's last name
and he says mm-hmm.

(17:31):
And yeah, he soundsuncooperative, I mean, I know
where the story is going, butyeah, he does kind of sound
uncooperative.
He says, okay, what is her lastname?
And then rises I don't know herlast name, and he's like you
don't know her last name.
And then he says it's kaiman,which is right, and the cop
asked if he can spell that, no,he can't.

(17:53):
Ryan, uh, is acting like hedoesn't really know heather,
even though she was hisgirlfriend for eight months.
Right, and I can see also howit seems uncooperative.
But at the same time like whywould you pick those kinds of
things to lie about when, likethat's already information the

(18:14):
police would obviously haveknown?

Speaker 1 (18:16):
like If you watch 48 Hours, people do that all the
time.
Yeah, Because they're justtrying to.
They're trying to be dicksBecause they're just trying to
be dicks?

Speaker 2 (18:24):
Well, he doesn't seem like he's trying to be a dick.
He seems like he's drunk orsomething.

Speaker 1 (18:30):
Yeah Well, that's probably it.
They're probably like thisguy's on something or he's just
trying to be uncooperative.

Speaker 2 (18:40):
So you would think that he would have some kind of
feelings, right, about what heis being asked, because his
girlfriend is dead, but he isacting like he wasn't even there
, right, he is not evenpretending.
The cop asks how old Heather isand Ryan says 16 or 17.

(19:03):
Okay, she was 21.
The detective asks morequestions about Heather and the
majority of answers from Ryanare I don't know, or sentences
that don't make much sense, likeat one point he says B is the

(19:24):
answer, like it's a multiplechoice question, right?
Um, eventually the detectiveasked ryan what happened to his

(19:44):
face, and, uh, and, and he saidname, and the cop says no, is
that an accident?
Uh, so he like is like jumpingaround, yeah, like he doesn't
know.
When he's asking what, right,even though they had moved on to
uh, heather hitting him, orthey think that heather hit him.
It's like the cop you know howcops do, like those leading

(20:07):
questions, yeah, try and leadyou into a direction.
Like he's trying to lead himinto saying that heather hit him
right, only ryan is not gettingit right.
He's acting agitated, he'sfrustrated, he's raising his
voice, he's like I don't know, Idon't know, I don't know.
He seems annoyed and thedetective also seems to become

(20:28):
increasingly annoyed.
So, despite the confusion, thedetective keeps on asking about
the injuries, but Ryan's answersonly get worse from there.
Ryan then says that Heather hithim with her hand, and then
he's asked why.
He replies she was helpingChristina with her head doing

(20:49):
her hair.
Who's Christina?
And the detective says who'sChristina?
Right?
And Ryan says she's on thecouch and the detective says
okay, well, what's Christina'slast name and what does
Christina look like?
And Ryan, raising his voice andsounding agitated, says I don't

(21:12):
know, I really don't know.
Man, his voice sounds slurred,like I said, like he is under
the influence of something.
So at that point the detectivestarts ryan about a couple
different people.
You would think that they wouldhave tested him for
intoxicating, like abreathalyzer, like isn't that a
routine thing that you would doif somebody is acting

(21:34):
intoxicated?
So anyway, uh, at that pointthe detective starts asking ryan
about a couple different peoplehe had mentioned earlier back
in the crime scene.
Ryan claims to know none ofthem.
Now he asks Ryan what happenedlast night?
Ryan says I really don't know.
The detective tries asking morequestions about Christine on

(21:59):
the couch and Ryan says no,heather was on the couch and
when the detective confronts himabout the contradiction in his
statement, he's like Ryan, youjust said Christina was on the
couch.
Ryan raises his voice again.
He's trying to stand up, he'sslamming back down his chair.
He says I don't know, I justwant to go to sleep, man.

(22:20):
I just want to go to sleep, man, I just want to go to sleep.
The detective says okay, we'regonna start over what happened
last night.
Once again, ryan says I don'tknow.
The detective says why is yournose all beat up?
He's like I don't know.
He says who is Heather?
Ryan says Eric's girlfriend.

(22:41):
Okay, heather Ryan says Eric'sgirlfriend.
Okay, is Heather Eric'sgirlfriend?
And then he says no, she's mygirlfriend.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I just want to go to sleep, Idon't know.

(23:01):
So once again, the detectiveasks okay, let's go back to what
you just said.
So Heather hits you in the eye,right, like you said earlier,
heather hits you in the eye,right, like you said earlier,
heather hit you in the eye.
Ryan says no, alicia did.
That's the roommate, uh.
So the detective says okay, whydid alicia hit you?
And he says she probably hit iton something.
And so the detective is likehit one on something, I mean.

(23:24):
He says I don't know, I don'tknow.
Ryan does not seem lucid.
He can't keep up with theconversation or keep track of
when he is talking about Heather, alicia or Christina, whoever
that is.
So the detective flat out tellsRyan in a forceful voice you

(23:44):
know that girl in your house isdead.
That girl was behind you in thehouse.
She's dead.
And Ryan says Heather.
And the detective says you tellme.
And Ryan says the girl on thecouch is dead.
And he says I don't know ifshe's on the couch.
And then he says while thesepeople came over, richie and his

(24:07):
dad were shooting arrows anddarts.
They hit me and her with those.
That's it.
And Heather wasn't there andEric wasn't there.
It was just me and Heather.
And he also named, droppedRichie and his dad and another
two names interrupt Richie andhis dad.
Uh, and another two names.
So the detective responds okay,just tell me exactly what

(24:33):
happened.
Ryan says Richie and his dadtried to break in through the
back and that Richie used tolive there in the apartment as a
roommate of his and that Richieand his dad hit him because
they were trying to get theirstuff.
So the detective then asks okay, and they did this with a bow
and arrow?
And Ryan says they each had tworevolvers.
They didn't let off any shells.
So the detective, extremelyannoyed, tells Ryan, you just

(24:54):
said they had bow and arrow.
And Ryan goes no, that's notwhat I meant.
They had revolvers.
I meant they had revolvers.
So the next part is important,obviously.
The detective says okay, whathappened next?
And Ryan said they shot us both.
The detective says they shotboth of you with revolvers.

(25:14):
And Ryan says yes, they shot mein the eye.
And then they shot us both.
They shot both of you.
The detective asks again yeah,they shot both of you.
The detective asks again yeah,where did they shoot you at?
I got shot in the eye.
You got shot in the eye, Ithink so, with a revolver.
I think I don't know man, Idon't know.

(25:36):
And the detective says you don'tknow a lot, ryan, and he says
Did you shoot Heather?
Ryan's like like no, I didn'tshoot heather.
And the detective says tell methe truth, ryan.
He's so frustrated.
Ryan says richie and his dadcame over.
And I don't know, I don't knowthey came over.
He says they put him in asleeping hold and I lived

(26:00):
through it.
So the detective's like okay,ryan, what's a sleeping hold?
And he just continues to say Idon't know, I really don't know.
The detective confronts him withwhat has gone on in the
interrogation, he says okay,ryan, listen to you, listen up.
According to you, heather hityou.
No, alicia hit you.

(26:20):
No, heather and Christina areon the couch.
Nevermind Alicia, christina andEric aren't even there.
Richie and his dad broke inthrough the back and shot you
with bows, nevermind, it wasrevolvers.
And then they shot you in theeye and Ryan's like and the
detective is like okay, was thegun a BB gun?
Ryan goes no, it was a revolver.

(26:41):
The detective says Ryan, ifthey shot you in the eye with a
revolver, you wouldn't betalking to me right now.
Ryan says how do you know?
He says because you'd be dead.
And Ryan says well, I thoughtthat too, man, and he's just
saying it over and over again.
He wants to go to sleep, hewants to go to bed.
The detective's like that's notgoing to happen.

(27:03):
Bud, your girlfriend was justfound dead on your couch and
you're lying right now.
I don't think he sounds likethis, I'm just this is my douche
cop voice.
You can't even tell a straightstory.
He asks if Richie and his dadshot Heather after they broke in
through the back door of thekitchen.
Ryan says yes, and this parttakes a lot of pull from the

(27:26):
detective as he tries to piecetogether the story.
So he's like maybe Richie andhis dad knocked and he opened
the door and they pushed theirway in and they shot you.
And he's like yeah, yeah, yeah.
And he goes and they shotHeather in the face.
Yeah, yeah, oh.
And Ryan says during in theface, yeah, yeah, oh.
And Ryan says during this timehe was trying to get up off the
ground, he saw Heather sleeping,so he just lay back down.

(27:49):
The detective says none of thismakes sense.

Speaker 1 (27:55):
I'm kind of there with the cop, though.
I mean, if you don't know whatyou're about to say, then it
would feel like one either theguy's drunk and you're about to
say, then it would feel like one.
Either the guy's drunk andyou're irritated, or on
something, or he's just beingpurposefully irritating.

Speaker 2 (28:12):
Well, we'll get to that, but there's a lot of
negligence on the part of likehis face is really fucked up and
they didn't get him examined.
Even when the paramedics wereright there, they didn't ask for
him to be examined, and if theythought he was intoxicated they
should have tested him for it.
And so continuing.

Speaker 1 (28:29):
They don't.
They should have.
I just looked it up.
I just looked it up.
They don't do that unless it'slike a the person has obviously
Like it was a hit and run, theguy was drunk, whatever they
don't, I'm not saying theyshouldn't.
Maybe they should.

Speaker 2 (28:49):
But that's not something they should have.
Gotten him looked at by aparamedic, sure, and you'll see,
I want to show you this picture.
So Ryan says during that timehe's trying to get up off the
ground but he saw Heathersleeping, so then he lay back
down.
The detective doesn't think itwould make sense.
He says right now you're sayingyou've been shot in the eye
with a revolver.
Ryan says yes.

(29:10):
So this has been like half anhour now he's been telling him
I've been shot in the eye.

Speaker 1 (29:16):
Yeah, but I can also again.
I mean, I'm not saying that thecops didn't make mistakes, but
I am saying most people don'tsurvive.
That is not supposed to be asurvivable gunshot.

Speaker 2 (29:29):
He doesn't seem coherent at all.

Speaker 1 (29:33):
No.

Speaker 2 (29:34):
And he's showing signs of concussion-like
behavior.
You can see, I will show you ina minute.
So what did you do with Heatherlast night?
And Ryan says her dad came andshot up the whole house.
So the detective is gettingeven more frustrated.

(29:54):
He throws up his hands in theair.
He throws up his hands and he'slike so her dad came and shot
up the house.
And he's like yeah, yeah.
And he goes.
So richie is heather's dad,ryan says.
Ryan says after he was shot inthe eye, he tried to go back to
sleep and he didn't call 9-1-1because he wanted to go to sleep
.
So the detective is like okay,well, if, if richie heather's

(30:16):
dad who is not heather's dad, bythe way okay.
So he said he wanted Sorry, Irepeated the same shit over
again.
So the detective says why again?
Why did you shoot Heather?
He says I didn't.
She was shot once by herbrother.
Now he says I swear.
So it was Richie, her dad andnow her brother.

(30:37):
The detective says and you wereshot in the eye too.
Ryan says yes.
So finally the detectivedecides that maybe you should
look closer at this.
So he asked Ryan hey, can Itake a closer look at your face.
So he's trying to figure outwhat's going on.
So he looks at Ryan's face andthe second he touches ryan's

(31:01):
head.
Ryan says oh, my head hurts.
And the detective abruptly getsout and exits the room.
At this point he walks out ofthe room and when he comes back
in the room he's acting like acompletely different person.
His attitude has gotten donelike a 180.
He walks back in and now he's.
He sounds really calm, hesounds really compassionate and

(31:23):
he's like the fire department'scoming and they're going to take
you to the hospital.
Ryan says you're taking me tothe hospital and he says why?
I don't want to go to thehospital, I want to go to bed.
And the cop uncuffs him and sayswe just need to make sure
you're okay.
So the cop unccoffs him soobviously he doesn't think he's

(31:43):
a danger anymore.
And they both sit there andwait and Ryan keeps pleading to
go to sleep, saying he doesn'twant to go to the hospital, he
wants to go to sleep.
And finally the paramedics comein and the detective is like
you're not going to believe this.
I looked closer at his face.
He keeps telling me he was shotby a revolver and he whispers

(32:05):
to the paramedics and says Ithink those wounds right there
near his nose is a gunshotentrance.
Here's a picture of his face.
He's got two holes in his nose.

Speaker 1 (32:17):
Yeah, but I can also see how, if you didn't tell me
that, I wouldn't have known.
First of all, that doesn't lookgaping and second of all, I
wouldn't know that unless I wereright there.
It does to me because but wouldit if you didn't already know
it would?

Speaker 2 (32:33):
look like something had happened to him more than
he's just been hit.
They also find out when theyarrested him.
It was rather forcible, andthey also knocked his head into
the ground, so you would thinkthat they would have gotten to
examine him just for that, yeah.

Speaker 1 (32:54):
I agree with you there.

Speaker 2 (32:55):
Okay, hang on, let me go back to my thing.
So the paramedics look at him,the fire department looks at him
, anything.
So the paramedics look at him,the fire department looks at him
and, uh, suddenly they ofcourse whisk him away to the
hospital.
So the bullet went through hisnose like this, lodged into his

(33:16):
eye and into his brain, andprobably the fact that it went
through his nose is what savedhis life, because it probably
slowed the bullet down.
Yeah no doubt the bullet waslodged in his head and yeah, not
to reiterate the point, but hehad to wait in his house, wait
in the backseat of the comm carfor four hours and then go
through this interrogationbefore he was even looked at by

(33:40):
medical personnel.
Someone said it wasn't obviousthat he was shot because there
was no blood and again, likethat cop in the interrogation,
you would assume that he wouldbe killed.
But he does have those holes inhis nose and and they mentioned
he oh, your nose looks beat up.

(34:02):
But they don't really take acloser look at his nose or his
face at all.
Um so, overall the whole thing,it was over six hours before he
received medical attention.
So at the hospital they findthat he had been shot in the
face.
The the bullet entered the leftside of the nose.

(34:22):
Like I said, it went throughand entered his eye.
It caused brain swelling andlodged a bullet splinter behind
his left eye.
Additional damage came frombone fragments in his brain.
He also had a broken jaw frombeing tackled during his arrest.
An infection in his braindelayed surgery to remove the
bullet and he had to spend 35days in the hospital and endured

(34:47):
unbearable seizures afterwardand he had to have either one or
possibly both eyes removed.
Some sources said both eyes,and I guess that was because
there was so much brain damage.
They also removed a portion ofhis brain, so he had blindness
and severe seizures the rest ofhis life.

(35:10):
Is he still alive?
No, he died anymore.
He died, uh, at 28 fromcomplications due to the brain
injury.
Yeah, so the couple had onlybeen in the house for a few
months when on.
Well, here's where again,differing accounts, and this is
kind of a critical one.

(35:31):
This one account says that theincident happened on the 23rd,
where he wasn't found until the26th.
So we do know the perpetratorrichie carver, a former roommate
and friend.
His father, larry carver,decided to break in.
They rang the doorbell and ryangot up to see who it was.

(35:56):
Upon realizing when he openedthe door and he saw it was the
guy that he had been having beefwith, he tried to shut the door
immediately, but richie reachedthrough and shot him in the
head twice.
This first bullet was the onethat entered his brain.
The other one skimmed the sideof his head and took off a piece

(36:16):
of his skull, followingFollowing that Wait, do we know
where in his head?

Speaker 1 (36:21):
like would his hair have covered it?
I?

Speaker 2 (36:23):
mean his hair was short, but I was trying to look
at a side picture from hisintake.
Let me see if I can, if I canfind it.
I don't know if this is thesign, but there is some blood
there, but I don't know ifthat's the side that the other

(36:45):
bullet went through or not,Because his hair is pretty short
.

Speaker 1 (36:51):
Yeah, I could see how that.
If that is where it wentthrough and grazed his skull, I
can see how they wouldn't havenoticed.

Speaker 2 (36:58):
Yeah, I can see them not noticing that one skull.
I can see how they wouldn'thave noticed.
Yeah, I can see them notnoticing that.
One See, and even with his.

Speaker 1 (37:03):
Even in the side picture with the hole there.
I wouldn't know that that's ahole.
Yeah, I mean, I agree with you.
I don't remember you saying atfirst that he was forcefully,
like they banged his head enoughto break his jaw.
I didn't know that.
That changes the interrogationentirely so.

Speaker 2 (37:20):
Following that, Richie went into the other room
and shot Heather dead on thecouch and presumably, while
Richie's motivations are notclear, he has some kind of
personal vendetta against Ryanand so Wait, I have a question.

Speaker 1 (37:41):
I'm sorry.
I was busy thinking when wasRyan shot when they shot him?
Not in his face, I mean, likewhere in the house Did you say
At the door?
At the door, yeah, do we knowhow far away the door is from
the couch?

Speaker 2 (37:55):
Because I'm just wondering why Heather wouldn't
have heard that wouldn't havewell heard that they, uh, they
said that, uh, that they couldsee the couch, like behind ryan
um when, when, like, he answeredthe door and, however, in some

(38:16):
of his accounts he said the backdoor, so I don't know if, if,
if, it's the same door that theycould see the couch from that
he entered through so, and do weknow how?

Speaker 1 (38:27):
heather was positioned, like what, what I'm?
I'm just asking if, like, shemaybe heard it and she was
trying to get up, or if she waslike napping I don't know what
position she was in, but they itwasn't clear whether she was
sleeping or dead until they camein and got a closer look at her
right.
No, I was just thinking, becauseif she was like laying down, no
sleeping, then maybe shewouldn't get up.

(38:49):
But if she had tried to get upand they shot her, then it would
you know, she'd be in adifferent position yeah for sure
.

Speaker 2 (38:56):
Uh, no, I couldn't find any information like
details about her position oranything like that.
And one thing that I hadthought too is that which I felt
like was a slip-up or whatever.
Is that like they believed?
Because they saw that she wasshot?
They saw that they could tellthat she had been shot and like

(39:18):
wouldn't you try and find thegun?
Or, you know, look around theplace and try and see, like is
there a gun?
Like where are the bulletsgoing through?
Or whatever, mm-hmm, and if youdid that kind of investigation,
wouldn't they have found theevidence also of Ryan having

(39:39):
been shot at the door?

Speaker 1 (39:42):
I don't know Again there's not a lot of blood, so
you wouldn't be looking at himgetting shot, yeah, but like
where's the gun, where's the youknow?

Speaker 2 (39:51):
wouldn't you look around the whole?

Speaker 1 (39:52):
place Perpetrators hide things all the time.
I mean, he could have drivenaway and come back as far as I
could find they didn't even askhim about the gun.
If it had been three days, didthey know it was that day?

Speaker 2 (40:09):
We don't know.
Here's the other thing, tooHeather was killed just because
she was in the wrong place,wrong time, and so some said
that Richie had a dispute withRyan, some people said he had
made advances at Heather, andwhile some said that he just

(40:30):
wanted to steal Ryan's stuff,which is one of the things that
Ryan said I had put the.
It's really horrifying to thinkthat Ryan has spent the next
like two or three days at hishouse with this escalating brain
injury, confused, not able tocall for help, not knowing what

(40:51):
happened.
Accounts about this timeline,that this timeline is
manufactured, uh, by the police,because some other friends and
witnesses reported that thatwouldn't have been the case, it
couldn't have happened on the23rd and that it probably

(41:11):
happened that same day of one ofthe things that struck me wait,
can I?

Speaker 1 (41:17):
can I ask why they would say that like, like?
Is it because they saw him?
Because?

Speaker 2 (41:21):
if it happened days before.
That was the main bit of theirevidence that the police used to
get out of being sued by.
Ryan's dad, because theirexpert said that he had been so
long on his own that those sixhours didn't make any difference

(41:45):
.

Speaker 1 (41:45):
No, I understand.
That's not the question I'masking.
I'm asking what the friendssaid wouldn't be the case, like
did they see him?
Well, they have anotherroommate.

Speaker 2 (41:55):
Alicia, Like how could she have been there,
living there for three days inand out and not have noticed
anything?

Speaker 1 (42:06):
But didn't you say that some accounts didn't say
that?

Speaker 2 (42:09):
Yeah, exactly, so exactly.
Some accounts didn't say aboutAlicia, but he even mentions
Alicia.
So if Alicia, alicia would bean inconvenience to the story
that it happened days before.
But if alicia exists and saysno, like you cannot miss the

(42:31):
fact that there is a fuckingbody.
Well, yeah, apart no I, I and I.

Speaker 1 (42:35):
Okay so, alicia, but you said several friends said
that that wouldn't be the case.
Did that all of them say it'sbecause, alicia, or did they use
other things?
I'm not saying that, it's nottrue.

Speaker 2 (42:45):
I just want to know what the friends said I don't
have details of what it was, sohang on.
A brief bit about Richie'sarrest.
Richie was arrested initiallyand this other source said there
were reports of a personalvendetta between Richie and Ryan
, but that they barely knew eachother.

(43:05):
Richie had a history of assaultand domestic violence charges,
along with a four year prisonstint for armed robbery.
He was convicted of felonymurder and sentenced to life in
prison without parole.
Richie's dad, larry Carver,fled to California after the
crime, taking the murder weaponwith him.
Cheryl Larry's wife initiallyclaimed that he confessed to the

(43:27):
murders upon returning.
However, she later recanted herstatement, leading to Larry's
acquittal due to spousaltestimonial privilege, which is
a legal loophole that protectsspouses from testifying against
each other in criminal cases forevents that occurred during
their marriage.
However, heather's familylobbied for change and a new

(43:51):
statute, heather's Law was bornthat amended the marital
privilege statute to compel aspouse to testify if they
voluntarily provide police withinformation about the other
spouse's involvement in aserious crime.
After a legal battle, larrycarver was re-indicted and
sentenced to life in prisonwithout parole in 2013.

(44:12):
However, here's where I I founda bit about conflicting
accounts about when the accountattack occurred.
Ryan's family and roommatestestified that his roommate
happened on Christmas night, notthe day before, as claimed by
police.
Even Heather's obituary has solisted her date of death as

(44:32):
December 25th.
There's also the suspicion thatthe police might have altered
the timeline to divert attentionfrom their failure to provide
timely medical care to RyanRyan's.
So that's all I could findabout it.
Possibly because they had beenin contact with him.
The roommates would have beenin contact with him.

(44:54):
Argued for a different timeline, Ryan's family took the Phoenix
Police Department to court,seeking $15 million for
mishandling the case.
However, weeks before the trial, the case was dismissed, citing
expert opinion that the delaywouldn't have made a difference
to Ryan's injuries.
The Waller family disagrees andcontinues to hope for justice

(45:16):
and for the case to be reopenedagainst the Phoenix Police
Department and for the case tobe reopened against the Phoenix
Police Department.
And sadly, of course, like Imentioned, Ryan's story didn't
turn out great.
He moved back in with hisparents due to his severe
ongoing health issues.
He suffered regular injuriesfrom seizures and on January 20,

(45:39):
2016, he passed away as aresult of a severe seizure.

Speaker 1 (45:47):
So he's only 18.
When that happened he wasBecause you said he was 28,
right, yeah, 28.

Speaker 2 (45:52):
Yep, yeah, he was.
Well, that's, that's awful.

Speaker 1 (45:59):
It's awful anytime, but yeah, it's awful when it's a
really young person who hasn'thad a chance yet.
So wait, you said somebody gotout of jail.
Who was it that got out of jail?

Speaker 2 (46:08):
No, they uh, so the, the, the, it was the son, richie
, and his father who committedthe crime.
Uh, his father, larry Carver,avoided sentencing for a while
because the the person who hadthe testimony against him was

(46:30):
his wife and there was some kindof spousal privilege.

Speaker 1 (46:34):
Yeah, no, I got that.
But I thought you said somebodygot out of prison in 2016.
He no, he was um sentenced oryeah, went to trial or whatever
he went.

Speaker 2 (46:45):
He uh was sentenced in 2013.
2013 yeah okay, larry carver,and then, uh, ryan passed in
2016 and richie's.
They're both still in jail yes,do we know what their?

Speaker 1 (46:58):
sentence was life, life, life without pearl.

Speaker 2 (47:01):
Good, um, so the people for from responsible for
heather's quons just were heldaccountable, but of course
doesn't erase the nightmare thatryan endured in police custody.
I said medical treatment shouldhave been a priority, not an
afterthought, in regards ofguilt or suspicion.
He should have been a priority,not an afterthought, and
regardless of guilt or suspicion, he should have received

(47:24):
immediate care.

Speaker 1 (47:25):
Yeah, yeah, especially if they like tackled
him like that.

Speaker 2 (47:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (47:30):
Yeah, which.

Speaker 2 (47:32):
I don't even know why , hard enough to break his jaw.
It seems like that wouldn'thave even been necessary,
because he didn't seem like hewasn't really with it.

Speaker 1 (47:39):
No, he didn't seem to be violent or anything.
No, no, yeah, that seems whollyunnecessary.
That's interesting and so, yeah, I was always wondering that,
like, if somebody dies fromtheir injuries years later, do
they ever get resentenced?

(48:00):
Like I mean, I know they weresentenced for Heather's death,
but let's say Well, let's justnot even say this case Like,
let's just say in general Um,you shoot somebody, you intend
to kill them, but you don't, andyou're brought up on attempted
murder, but let's say fromcomplications, from that injury,

(48:20):
you caused they pass away like10 years later.
Do they then get recharged.

Speaker 2 (48:25):
Didn't we talk about this or a similar situation,
with that case that you?

Speaker 1 (48:29):
did about that?
I think it was coma.
I think that had to do with acoma.

Speaker 2 (48:33):
Yeah, with the mother and daughter victims.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:38):
Yeah, the Guyanases, was it the?

Speaker 2 (48:40):
Guyanases Because she did that dying testimony thing.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know.
They should be held tosomething, right.

Speaker 1 (48:52):
Yeah, well, I mean, in that case they would have
been held.
You know attempted murder.
But what I'm saying is, wouldBen be recharged?
Yeah, they didn't even theydidn't charge him at all.

Speaker 2 (49:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (49:04):
On attempted murder for Ryan.

Speaker 2 (49:05):
I don't think that they.
No, from what I could see,maybe from like I don't know,
like maybe, yeah, maybeattempted murder, but I it
seemed like the case was mostlyabout uh, it's the girl Heather.
I want to say Michelle, butit's not Michelle, it's Heather.

(49:26):
Um, some kind of uh, gen X orname.

Speaker 1 (49:32):
Heather.
Huh, heather's a Gen X or nameyeah definitely um, but I knew a
lot of heathers.
Do you grade school?

Speaker 2 (49:42):
yeah, not not now not around here well maybe.

Speaker 1 (49:46):
Okay, I think I found , maybe it depends on region
yeah, I probably did.
Uh, okay, I found some answersaccording to AI.

Speaker 2 (49:54):
Okay, okay, so, yes, so take it with a grain of salt,
yeah.

Speaker 1 (49:58):
In some legal systems , a charge of attempted murder
can be converted to a murdercharge if the attempted murder
victim dies from the injuriessustained during the attempted
murder, especially if thoseinjuries were a direct result of
the initial attack notlimitations.
This is not an automaticprocess, and the prosecution
must still demonstrate that theinitial intent was to kill, even

(50:20):
if the victim's death wascaused by complications later.

Speaker 2 (50:23):
Oh yeah, I mean they.
Obviously the intent was tokill.
They shot him twice in the head, yeah well, I was just looking
at in general.

Speaker 1 (50:30):
Yeah, because, like one of the things I was thinking
of was our local big murder,the um bowling alley massacre.
Right, yes, don't quote me onthis, but I'm pretty sure in one
of the things that I read orsaw one of, because there were
two survivors.
One of the survivors died yearslater from complications from
the wound.
So I was wondering, if theyever get caught, would they also

(50:52):
be charged with her murder,even though she didn't die that
day or within the closetimeframe?
So intent is key.
The core difference betweenattempted murder and murder lies
in the intent.
Attempted murder requires theintent to kill, but the victim
survives.
Murder, on the other hand,requires not only the intent to

(51:13):
kill, but also that victim diesas a result of the actions.
If the victim's death is due tocomplications arising from the
injuries inflicted during theattempted murder, the
prosecution may argue that theinitial intent to kill was still
the cause of death.
The prosecution still bears theburden of proving that the
intent was to kill, even if thevictim's death was delayed.

(51:35):
They must demonstrate a directcausal link between the initial
actions and the ultimate death.
It's important to understandthat the charge of attempted
murder does not automaticallyconvert to murder.
The prosecution needs topresent evidence to convince the
court that the original intentwas to kill and that the death
was a direct consequence of theactions taken For the defense.

(52:00):
The defense may argue that thedeath was not directly caused by
the initial attack or that theperpetrator's intent was not to
kill, even if the injuries weresevere.
They might argue that the deathwas due to medical
complications, negligence orother factors unrelated to the
initial crime.
Of medical complications,negligence or other factors
unrelated to the initial crime.
So yeah, you would think itwould be easy for somebody to be
like dude shot in the face orwhatever you know certainly an

(52:22):
easy upgrade.
You would think right and likein the case of the of the
bowling alley thing I mean, theywere all shot, yeah, it's my
understanding and then set onfire, right.
So in that case surely therewas intent.
But then, right, you could also.

Speaker 2 (52:40):
I could also see the defense saying well, they
survived and they died becauseof an infection, because the
doctor was incompetent, or orsomething, maybe because of the
suit against the police arguingthe the bit of police negligence
that could interfere also withthe getting that charge upgraded

(53:00):
, or it could also be that,since they would have to, like,
do another trial and stuff thatthe family just didn't want to
go through, that or theprosecution just felt that they
already had life.
Yeah so what does?

Speaker 1 (53:14):
it matter, you know, especially if they don't think
the evidence is there yeah okay,um, we have anything else to
talk about on that?
Um, about the case, I don'tthink so.
Okay, that's all I got.
Okay, um, and we didn't do amissing person.
I didn't do a missing person.
Um, so that leaves reading,watching, listening.

(53:37):
Am I going first?
Are you going first?

Speaker 2 (53:40):
you usually go first, okay, because I have a big
mouth.

Speaker 1 (53:44):
No, okay, so wait, let's start with watching.
Have you watched anything?

Speaker 2 (53:50):
uh, yeah, I didn't watch the one that I was telling
you about that I wanted towatch, ready or not.
I didn't watch the one that Iwas telling you about that I
wanted to watch, ready or not.
I didn't watch that one yetbecause it cost cash, money to
rent, oh, um, but I I watched,uh, a horror movie that was on
netflix I was trying to rememberif it was Netflix or Hulu and

(54:13):
it was called Talk to Me.
It was called Talk to Me andit's a 2023, a24 release and it
is kind of, yeah, I mean kind ofit's like a possession-y kind

(54:33):
of horror.
I mean kind of it's like apossession-y kind of horror.
It is not idle hands, but it'skind of reminiscent of that in a
way, in that the vehicle ofpossession is this like ceramic
hand, yeah, that they grasp andthen they say like an

(55:04):
incantation and, uh, it allowslike a spirit to possess them.
Basically, situations here.
Here's kind of a picture.
The situation kind of devolvesfrom there, uh, as one might
imagine.
Yeah, yeah, I thought it wasgood, I thought it was pretty
good, like fast-paced, and itkind of comes at you from all

(55:25):
kinds of directions.
It wasn't like a, it wasn'treally a jump-scary type.
Even I'm trying to think if ithad jump-scares, maybe A couple,
but it wasn't really like ajump scary type.
But yeah, it was fast-paced, itwas sinister, like you, yeah,

(55:45):
kind of from the viewpoint ofthis person who is kind of
devolving as they become moreentrenched in this world of
possession, kind of thing.
So I can't really say much morethan that without giving away
spoilers.
But, I thought it was worth awatch, mm-hmm so, and it's like

(56:06):
Australian-based, oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (56:09):
Nice, did you watch anything else?

Speaker 2 (56:12):
Not really, actually, I didn't watch as much as I
wanted to, and let's see we readTo Be Devoured Did we talk
about?

Speaker 1 (56:22):
that last time?
No, I think we said we weregoing to.

Speaker 2 (56:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (56:26):
Yeah, so we both read that.
We did read it.

Speaker 2 (56:31):
I found it to be entertaining.
I think, katie, you were maybemore grossed out than
entertained.

Speaker 1 (56:37):
Yes, From the beginning.
I have an issue with bugs andinsects, so that the start of it
, especially flying ones, so thestart of it was.

Speaker 2 (56:52):
It is listed as an extreme horror.

Speaker 1 (56:57):
Because I didn't find it scary.
I just found it gross.

Speaker 2 (57:01):
Yeah, I think that the scary part is to not know
what's going on with yourself.

Speaker 1 (57:10):
Yes, that is a scary thing.
That is something that I dofear is to be that kind of
mental unawareness.
Yeah, yeah, to not know yourown mind, yeah, that scares me,
exactly.

Speaker 2 (57:22):
Yeah.
So that to me was thehorrifying thing.
Yeah, for sure.
But yeah, there are quitegrotesque bits.
I mean it's real short.
Yeah, it's not even 90 pages.
I don't think I.
I mean it's real short, yeah.

Speaker 1 (57:35):
It's not even 90 pages.
I don't think I think my book.
It was like 80-something.

Speaker 2 (57:39):
So if you don't get grossed out easily, yeah, if you
don't mind body horror.
Yeah, Then that's one to checkout.
I also read Walk Among Us.
It's a vampire anthology ofthree novellas by Genevieve
Gornacek, Cassandra Caw andCaitlin Starling.

Speaker 1 (58:02):
How was the Cassandra Caw?
Because you and I have not hadgreat time with her.

Speaker 2 (58:06):
I thought it was okay .
Yeah, however, I will say itwas my least favorite out of the
three stories.

Speaker 1 (58:12):
Hmm, how does it hold up to her other books?

Speaker 2 (58:16):
uh it, it was much more realism based, okay.
So, yeah, I thought I thoughtit was pretty good.
Yeah, um, I liked.
It's hard to say what I likedabout it without again giving
away spoilers, because these arejust little novellas.
Yeah, there's not much to themyeah, um, but yeah, overall, I

(58:39):
gave the whole thing four starsand, yeah, I would recommend it.
Caitlin starling is one of myfavorite authors.
She wrote the luminous dead.
That's like one of my all-timefavorite horror books.

Speaker 1 (58:49):
The luminous dead is that?
Is that, an underwater one Attimes?
At times it is both land andsea.
It's amphibious.

Speaker 2 (59:01):
It's an off-world, it's set in like a dystopian,
far future, distant planet.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Ithink you've told me about it.
Yeah, it's kind of not a greatplanet, kind of similar to how
you see whatever like alienfuture portrayed Like
everything's very industrial andnot very great and a lot of the

(59:26):
resources are in caves and thisperson.
It's really quite a closedstory.
There's only only like twocharacters.
There's a, the protagonist, whois the cave diver and who's
been hired to do this cave divethat is supposed to pay a lot of
money and and the caves arealso full of toxic gas, so she,

(59:52):
she also has to live in likethis suit that does all of her
stuff for her.
Like there's a what are thosethings called that like for your
poop Ew?

Speaker 1 (01:00:04):
She has to get one of those too, and she like cannula
.

Speaker 2 (01:00:09):
That's what it's called.
I could have gone my whole lifewithout knowing that, and she
also like whatever feeds herself, like directly into, like a
port in her stomach with thisstuff so already, right, that's
bad.
She's stuck in a suit in a caveon some strange planet and
there's also bits of the cavethat are flooded.

(01:00:29):
Yeah, and and the the person,her mentor and guide is
untrustworthy.
And, yeah, she finds out thatthis is a much more dangerous
mission than what it wasoriginally proposed to be, and

(01:00:50):
we're also not sure.
There's also a cave monsterthing.
So there's a real cave monsterthing.
And then, uh, she starts tothink that maybe she's not alone
in the cave.
Oh, it's really good, highlyrecommend.
I.
I think I recommended that onceon like horror subreddit and

(01:01:11):
somebody had the gall to tell methat it was not horror.
I'm like, excuse me, it's spacehorror.
There is such a thing as genreblending well, and it has it has
, right, right, any fan of aliencan tell you that but like it
has all of the elements that Ithink are the most squeamish,
right, yeah, like you're in acave, you're underwater, and

(01:01:36):
like there's this very real bodyhorror element, because she's
in this suit, yeah, that sherelies on and it gets a bit icky
at times, yeah, and alsothere's a psychological element,
because she starts to not knowwhat's real and what's not real.
Yeah, so yeah, I don'tunderstand people who can't see

(01:02:03):
that genres can have multiple,exactly Aspects, because I mean
Alien.

Speaker 1 (01:02:06):
I would not classify that as sci-fi.
To me that's a horror.
Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:02:11):
The first one certainly is.
Some of the subsequent ones getmore action-y.
The new one is pretty horror-y,yeah, so I do recommend the new
one.
You've got Hulu.
You should watch it.
Maybe it's called Alien RomulusOkay.

Speaker 1 (01:02:27):
Did you watch or read anything else?
Was it for you?
Did you listen to anything?

Speaker 2 (01:02:33):
yeah, I, I, uh, I I also read, like I said, that
seraphina book, uh, by rachelhartman, the fantasy one that I
was telling you about.
So I read that.
Um, yeah, and that's good aswell well for the listeners,
because they weren't party to aconversation, if you, if you
like fantasy, and dragons,dragons, if you like dragons.

(01:02:55):
These dragons, like I wastelling Katie earlier, which you
all were not privy to in thatconversation, they're kind of
Vulcan-esque in that they eschewexcess of emotion.
They're very grounded in reasonand science and order and in
fact, uh, displays of excessemotion or excess whatever

(01:03:18):
humanity type features, isillegal in their society.

Speaker 1 (01:03:24):
They are dragons that transform into humans too so if
that's something that interestsyou and there it sounds like
there's like a political dramaaspect to it as well.

Speaker 2 (01:03:37):
Yeah, there is a political drama aspect to it,
for sure, and there is halfdragon, half human people who
are illegal to exist, but theyexist nevertheless.
And so, but it's not like a,you're not, you're not gonna get
like a horny dragon, human.
It's not romantic, y'all Tristtype situation, no.

Speaker 1 (01:03:59):
Rachel has succeeded in finding a non-romantic
fantasy there is.
There is a romance in it, but,like I said, it's sidelined.

Speaker 2 (01:04:08):
Exactly, perfect yeah .

Speaker 1 (01:04:13):
It's not the focus.

Speaker 2 (01:04:13):
The story is perfect, but the, although it's not the
perfect, the story is perfect,but the although it's quite good
that, but the the level ofromance aspect is perfect for
what I want in my fantasies,like I.
Like I was telling katie I II'm okay with reading some
romance.
I read some romance sometimes,but but I don't.

(01:04:34):
I have discovered I don't likeromanticism, because I feel like
all the romance tropes andthings interfere with the
fantasy story, which is what I'mhere for, right, and so I don't
.
I don't need to be checking off.

Speaker 1 (01:04:47):
So it's heavy on the romance romance romance part of
the romantic scene.

Speaker 2 (01:04:52):
I'd rather, you know, learn about the dragons and
their whatever magical systemsand all these things, then have
like a chapter-long sex scene,basically you're not into the
smut sometimes, sometimes, Ijust don't want it mixed up with

(01:05:13):
my dragons and my fantasy youdon't want to read about dragons
.
I don't want my dragon I don'twant my dragons and my fantasy
to be interrupted by this.

Speaker 1 (01:05:24):
That's what I don't want um, is there anything else
you read?
You started the steinbeck.
We're reading together.

Speaker 2 (01:05:34):
Yes, I started East of Eden.
I also started the sequel tothe Serafina book.
All good, yeah, so we'rereading both of those
simultaneously and, yeah, that'sit for reading.
I hope to watch some moremovies the next couple of weeks

(01:05:55):
or so, but we'll see.
Yeah, I just have to resignmyself that I'm probably going
to be watching them alone,because Jade is not a fan of the
movies so much.
Whenever I would turn on amovie.
They're like you're watching awhole ass movie, even if they've

(01:06:17):
been watching some kind ofgaming stream for the past three
hours.

Speaker 1 (01:06:23):
So they watch gaming streams rather than movies.

Speaker 2 (01:06:27):
Gaming streams or political commentary streams.
They like a show, they'll watcha show with me Even if
sometimes we watch a fewepisodes of a show, that would
constitute the length of a filmthey seemed good with um death
of a unicorn.
Yeah it's yeah, they were okaywith that.

Speaker 1 (01:06:46):
They were telling me afterward they were like well,
that's when I guess I need, as atheater, to watch a movie I you
know I like movies, but sincecovid I have found that the only
way I can sit through a movieand only a movie and not do
other things is to be in atheater.
Yeah, it's the only time I'mnot glued to my phone or feel

(01:07:07):
like I need to be while watchingsomething yeah so I I
understand they're easy days.
I'm watching the movie on myphone yeah, well, that that
would help if that's the onlyway to see it.
Yeah, yeah but yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:07:19):
So I mean, there's hardly a movie that I can get
through without having to pauseit, right?
So that kind of sucks, yeah,but kid life yeah.
And then it seems like as soonas I put on something like an
R-rated movie or whatever, evenlike my kids have not been
bothering me like for a while.

Speaker 1 (01:07:40):
They suddenly, They'll just come in.
They'll be like what are you?

Speaker 2 (01:07:42):
doing Mom, what are you watching?

Speaker 1 (01:07:47):
They have a sixth sense.
Yeah, they really do.
Yeah, so let's see.
Well, I went on a wholeescapade for the one movie I
attempted to watch last week, soI listened to a podcast about
horror books.
Yeah, called Books in theFreezer and the host and the

(01:08:09):
guest.
The theme was doppelgangerfiction and movies.
Surprisingly they did not bringup Doppelganger, the movie yeah
, which you watched, which Iwatched or thought I'd watched,
like 25 years ago, but I put iton because I saw that it was
free, I think on one of thestreaming services.

(01:08:30):
I have and I don't remember anyof it no, I remember drew
barrymore, but I remembernothing else about it does drew
barrymore have a doppelganger inthe movie.

Speaker 2 (01:08:46):
Yeah, yeah is it played by?
Or that is the doppelgangerplayed by drew barrymore?
Also okay because I was likelike nobody looks like.
Yeah, no, not even drewbarrymore also.

Speaker 1 (01:08:53):
Yeah, okay, because I was like like nobody looks like
yeah, no, not even drewbarrymore, except for, except
for her like whatever, likegreat grandma or somebody yeah,
yeah, yeah, well, even her mom'sin that movie and she doesn't
look like her mom at all.
But yeah, I mean I, because I'maddicted to my phone, which I'm
working really hard on removingmyself from all addicted to our

(01:09:15):
phones.

Speaker 2 (01:09:15):
In fact, right now I'm looking up to Barrymore's
great-grandma because I saw apicture of her a while back and
she looks a lot like her.

Speaker 1 (01:09:21):
But anyway, I had thought about that movie for
years, ever since I thought thatI saw it, and so I pulled it up
and I watched it, and it turnsout I don't remember ever seeing
it.
It's her grandmother, not hergreat-grandmother, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:09:35):
I can see the resemblance, Like she looks
different, but she also, like,kind of looks like her.

Speaker 1 (01:09:39):
Yeah, there's definitely a family resemblance
there, but anyway.
So I don't know if I'drecommend the movie.
If you can, if you like horrorfrom the 90s Sometimes and it's
not very good, then you'll likethe movie, yeah.
Or if doppelgangers are justthe idea of doppelgangers freaks

(01:10:02):
you out and that's what youwant to watch, then I would
recommend it, becausedoppelgangers are one of my big
horror scares.
It it's partly because I one ofthe things that I fear the most
and that irritates me the mostis if I'm not being believed,
and that is the whole thingabout a doppelganger.
Is that right?

(01:10:24):
They make people not believeyou.

Speaker 2 (01:10:26):
It does bother me to not be believed a lot.
Yeah, um, probably more than isreasonable.

Speaker 1 (01:10:33):
Me too.
Me too, I have a.
I have a.
Have a really difficult timewith that.

Speaker 2 (01:10:38):
I hadn't thought about doppelgangers that way,
but thanks for that.

Speaker 1 (01:10:41):
Sorry, honestly, I hadn't either, until I listened
to the episode and then thewoman, the guest, was saying
something like that and I waslike you're right.
That is what makes thedoppelganger scary is that it
wipes out.
You right, you're still alive,but you don't exist, yeah

(01:11:02):
because they have taken over,yeah, over your life yeah,
scared the yeah, so I attemptedto watch that.
I did not.
I mean, I got all the waythrough it, but I was doing
other things, including foldinglaundry, which I rarely do, so
you know what that meant, whatthat means, I guess.
Anyway, so I watched that and Ilistened to that episode and

(01:11:27):
somehow I don't want to say thatI've gotten over my reading
slump, but I will say that I'veread two books in the last week.
Yeah, that's awesome over myreading slump.
But I will say that I've readtwo books in the last week.
Yeah, um, both non-fiction.
I read reasons not to worry.
So if you're interested instoicism and how to apply it to
modern life, I recommend thatbook.
And, um, what was the other oneI read?

(01:11:47):
Oh, yeah, earth to moon.
I finished that one.
I think I mentioned it lasttime which, holy shit I the
amount of yelling I did at thatwhile I was driving at her
mother uh, father too, butmainly her mother was.
It was a lot.

(01:12:08):
Now we know how to make katieyell.
What, talking about the chick'sabusive mother, shitty parents,
yeah, well, I mean, it's noteven like.
Did you read the?

Speaker 2 (01:12:17):
britney spears one.
No, speaking of shitty parents.
No, I don't usually likecelebrity stuff yeah you know um
well, see, I didn't eitherreally, and I don't know, I was
just like so invested in, likewhatever the story of of

(01:12:41):
Brittany and the what was thatthing over her, like where her
conservatorship, conservatorship, yeah, coverture is a type of
marriage, sorry.
When she finally got to tellher story, I was like, well, I
have to listen.

Speaker 1 (01:12:56):
Yeah, no, I don't have any interest in that.
Yeah, the whole time I was justlike oh, moon honey, run away.
Yeah, leave, leave, and I thinkpart of what bothered me.
So we all know that I am not aparticularly forgiving person.

(01:13:16):
Once you have wronged me, yeah,I'm done with you yeah and moon
is moon.
Unit is um, very forgiving andvery loving and I appreciate
that.
But also I wanted to kind ofshake her and be like you know

(01:13:37):
she doesn't deserve your loveand your forgiveness to an
extent but yeah, yeah, but inthe end she seems to be okay.
And then the way her two youngersiblings treated her at the end
, just so I, I enjoyed that it.
It enraged me, but also I am inawe of people who can do that.
Yeah, because again, that isnot me.

(01:13:59):
Yeah, that is one of the things.

Speaker 2 (01:14:01):
I work on.
It's good to forgive, but atthe same time like don't let
yourself get walked over.

Speaker 1 (01:14:10):
Let's see.
Okay.
So I watched Doppelganger and Ilistened to Earth to Moon and I
read Reasons Not to Worry Again.
Highly recommend that one.
I recommend Earth to Moon aswell.
I was just agitated.

Speaker 2 (01:14:26):
I would probably if it pissed you off.
It would piss me off.

Speaker 1 (01:14:29):
Yeah, it's just yeah, so I read those.
I've started listening toStephen Fry read his version of
Greek myths called Myths, highlyrecommend.
He's hilarious and it makes ithighly accessible, like I've
always liked Greek myths, but alot of times when you read them

(01:14:50):
they're written in such a waythat it's like it's meant for
college.
Right or for school, of courseyou know, and this is like like
this is intellectualism, yeah,but this is uh, it's accessible
and it's fun.
Probably not for small ears,though he does get a little
dirty.
Of course, I would expect it isStephen Fry, but it is a lot of

(01:15:15):
fun.
And I just found out he did theOdyssey.

Speaker 2 (01:15:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:15:21):
And even though you and I both talked about how we
hate the Odyssey, I think Imight actually listen to that
for him.
Yeah to hear.
And then I'm also reading,still reading the Siren's Call,
and I started what is called anautobiography, but I don't know
if it really is called the Yearsby Annie Arnoux yeah, who's a

(01:15:45):
French writer, but that's whatI've been reading and listening
to and watching.
Awesome, and that's it.
Oh, let me go grab the books.
Oh, I'll actually just let melook it up we have a crime book?
we do have a crime book.
We mentioned it last time.

Speaker 2 (01:16:01):
But I mentioned it, remember.
So if you didn't remember,don't feel bad okay it's called.

Speaker 1 (01:16:07):
Okay, it's called the poisoner's handbook murder and
the birth of forensic medicinein jazz age, new Age, new York,
by Deborah Bloom, b-l-u-m.
And that will be two episodesfrom this one.
So if things get out the waythey should, then it will be in
one month's time, right Fromthis Wednesday.

(01:16:29):
So I guess that's it.
You have anything to add?
Um, no, so I guess that's it.
You have anything to add?
No, so please like subscribe.
Download.
If you want.
You can reach out to us on oursocials, which are all in the
show notes.
We also have an email.
Please email us with questionsor suggestions, okay, so, yeah,

(01:16:55):
like subscribe all that goodstuff.
We really appreciate it and wewill talk to you next time.
Bye.