The Starvation Doctor: Linda Hazzard

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In this episode, Kiki tells the story of "Dr" Linda Hazzard and her extreme diet plan. And then we discuss Helter Skelter. As always, we talk a little about what we've been watching and reading. There's no missing person this week. 

Our next book is "The Dinosaur Artist: Obsession, Betrayal, and the Quest for Earth's Ultimate Trophy" by Paige Williams.

Sources:

Smithsonian - "The Doctor Who Starved Her Patients to Death" by Bess Lovejoy 

Wikipedia - Linda Hazzard

Get in touch with us:

Instagram: Details Are Sketchy - @details.are.sketchy
Facebook: Details Are Sketchy - @details.are.sketchy.2023
Instagram: Kiki - @kikileona84
Instagram: Rachel - @eeniemanimeenienailz
Email: [e-mail] 

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
shall we do our intro ?
Yeah, can you hear me?
I feel like this is different.
I put my microphone up nowwe're having like cold ass, cold
openings, yeah all right, I'mkiki and I'm rachel, and this is
details are sketchy, a truecrime podcast, and it is my case
today yep did you get a missingperson or are we doing no

(00:23):
missing?

Speaker 2 (00:23):
person again.
Oh shit, no way, like I wasreading until like five minutes,
I know, I know it's okay.

Speaker 1 (00:32):
It's okay, I didn't even think about it.
Yeah, I still have 100 pages togo, but I'm going to wing the
last 100.
Close enough?
Yeah, I don't think muchhappened, other than somebody
disappeared.
The lawyer yeah, we'll talkabout that later, anyway, okay,
so, no missing person.
We're starting off the new yearright.

Speaker 2 (00:54):
With a giant ass, wordy book.

Speaker 1 (00:58):
That is very true I listened to the audio version.

Speaker 2 (01:00):
Does that book have small print?
Because I read some reviews andsomebody said it has small
print.
Oh yeah, what the fuck that'ssmall.
I didn't think it was small atall it's like tight.

Speaker 1 (01:12):
Yeah, it's tight, definitely tight.
Yeah.
Yeah, there are a lot ofpictures, though, but still,
that doesn't take up the it's.
It's very wordy.
I want to see the pictures.

Speaker 2 (01:22):
Okay, I didn't get to see pictures because I was in
the audiobook.

Speaker 1 (01:27):
Well, let's do that when we get to it.
Okay, because I kind of want totalk about the pictures.

Speaker 2 (01:31):
Okay, all right.

Speaker 1 (01:32):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (01:32):
All right, you can show me the pictures.
That whoops Okay, when we talkabout it.

Speaker 1 (01:40):
All right.
So today I'm going to do mycase no Missing Person and then
we're going to talk about ourbook Helter Skelter, yep, and
then we will tell you what ournext book is.

Speaker 2 (01:49):
That occupying, like the past, like entire week of my
life.

Speaker 1 (01:54):
And we will also talk about the other stuff we've
been reading and watching, otherthan the depressing stuff.
That's happening, that we'regoing to pretend for now is not
happening, because I need tolive blissfully for a little bit
longer.

Speaker 2 (02:08):
We know it's happening and like at this point
, it's just like I don't know.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:14):
The fires, the inauguration.
I just kind of I need to.
I'm going to be talking about alot of depressing stuff this
semester anyway.
So I kind of like just want onemore day of like blissful
ignorance Right, yeah, stuffthis semester anyway.
So I kind of like just want onemore day of like blissful

(02:35):
ignorance, right yeah, until Ihave to go out into the world
and deal with it all right.
So if, uh, you hear something,I am, I do have my cough drop
because I still have my cough,and we also have some
valentine's candy because it'smy favorite time of year.

Speaker 2 (02:43):
I do have one thought thing yeah that you cannot
search LGBT on the White Housewebsite anymore.
There is no entry.

Speaker 1 (02:55):
Yeah, that doesn't surprise me, yeah, okay.

Speaker 2 (02:58):
That is all.

Speaker 1 (03:01):
Okay, so my case is probably going to be very short.
It's on Linda Hazard, alsoknown I think she's also known
as the starvation doctor.
Doctor is a loose term.

Speaker 2 (03:15):
That's a cool name for a not cool person.
Yeah, you mean Hazard?
Yeah, yeah, sounds like asuperhero, but I guess she's a
super villain.

Speaker 1 (03:26):
Yeah, yeah, sounds like a superhero but I guess
she's a super villain.
Yeah, so Linda Hazard was bornin Carver, Minnesota.
Hazard is her married name.

Speaker 2 (03:35):
Okay, I was going to ask if she like changed her name
to have like a whatever, likeTV name or Not TV, but
influencee name.

Speaker 1 (03:46):
You know what I mean, yeah, name.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, I know what you.
She moved to washington at somepoint.
She had no medical degree butwas licensed to practice
medicine in the state ofwashington because there was
this loophole that grandfatheredin some practitioners of
alternative medicines withoutdegrees.
So she could technically,legally, call herself a doctor

(04:07):
even though she had no actualmedical training.

Speaker 2 (04:10):
Danger-oo Yep.

Speaker 1 (04:13):
She did study, at least according to her book the
Science of Fasting.
She studied under Dr EdwardHooker Dewey, who was a
well-known proponent of fasting,and I don't know if he was a
real doctor either.
I didn't actually look him up.
I should have done that, but itwas 8 o'clock this morning and

(04:35):
I wasn't thinking clearly, soyou got.

Speaker 2 (04:36):
Dr Hazard and Dr Hooker.

Speaker 1 (04:41):
Was that his name?
Oh, hooker Dewey yeah, hooker'shis first name.

Speaker 2 (04:48):
name no it's his middle name, oh okay, yeah,
maybe it's like somebody'ssomebody else's surname that got
passed down is his middle namecould happen sometimes.

Speaker 1 (04:57):
Yeah.
So hazard developed a fastingmethod that she claimed was a
remedy for all types ofillnesses.
She claimed that it rid thebody of toxins that caused
imbalances in the body.
Over the course of her career,she wrote books about what she
claimed to be the science behindfasting, especially her

(05:20):
particular type of fasting andhow it could cure diseases.
The first was Fasting for theCure of Disease, published in
1908, and it was later publishedunder the title Scientific
Fasting the Ancient and ModernKey to Health.

Speaker 2 (05:35):
Yeah, I was sorry to interrupt but they let her
publish with a name like what isit Fasting to cure disease?
We'll talk about it, jesus.
It's quite a name.

Speaker 1 (05:50):
She also wrote Diet and Disease in Systemic
Cleansing, published in 1917.
Hazard, while she was inWashington, established a

(06:12):
sanitarium called WildernessHeights, located in Olala.
I don't know, I can hear it inmy head because I heard it on
Deadly Women, but I cannot forthe life of me get it out of my
mouth.
Olala, it's O-L-AL-L-A.
In Washington they always soundlike they were saying O-L-L-A,

(06:33):
but that's not it.

Speaker 2 (06:35):
That's what I want to say.
O-l-l-a.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (06:40):
So her methods were not entirely unique.
However, hers were extremelyunorthodox.
She believed that the root ofall disease lay in food,
specifically too much of it.
Quote.
Appetite is craving, hunger isdesire.
Craving is never satisfied, butdesire is relieved when want is

(07:03):
supplied.
End quote.
That is from her self-publishedbook Fasting for the Cure of
Disease.
According to Hazard, the pathto true health was to
periodically let the digestivesystem quote rest through near
total fasts of days or more.
During this time, patientsfasted for days, weeks or months

(07:25):
on a diet consisting of smallamounts of tomato, asparagus
juice and occasionally orangesor orange juice.
They would have their systemsquote flushed with daily enemas
and vigorous massages thatnurses said sometimes sounded
more like beatings.

Speaker 2 (07:47):
Why the enemas?
It seems so unnecessary.

Speaker 1 (07:51):
It does seem unnecessary, but you got to rid
the body of its toxins.
Personally, I think she's justa sadist, but whatever.

Speaker 2 (07:59):
Yeah, there was something about I don't know
like something about like dietsand enemas.
Isn't there what?
When was this book written?
Wasn't there like a periodwhere enemas were like really
popular?

Speaker 1 (08:13):
I think they've.
They've come in and out ofpopularity over time.

Speaker 2 (08:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (08:17):
Yeah.
So while some patients survivedand publicly endorsed Hazard's
methods, dozens died under hercare.
That is a little bit of anexaggeration, since everything I
could find was a dozen or atmost 17.

Speaker 2 (08:33):
Yeah.
So let me see if I I was fadingin and out of attention giving,
so sorry, that's okay.
I was fading in and out ofattention giving, so sorry,
that's okay.
So they had the enemas and theywere drinking like juice or
eating like oranges or justfruit or whatever, and like how
many days would they do that?

Speaker 1 (08:54):
Days, weeks or months At a time, consecutive.
Yes, jesus, I actually havediary entries, which we'll talk
about at the end.

Speaker 2 (09:03):
So that's it.
That was the whole diet.

Speaker 1 (09:08):
Like consecutive days of, like tomato juice or
oranges.
It would be tomato likestrained tomato broth, basically
Asparagus broth and sometimesorange juice and one or two
oranges a day.

Speaker 2 (09:22):
That reminds me of this other cookbook it was that
french women don't get fatcookbook and they recommend some
kind of like leek soup orsomething to whatever, kickstart
your metabolism, which is not afucking thing, right.
But like she like puts the Idon't remember exactly but you

(09:45):
like cook the leek in the soupand then you like strain the
fucking leek out, so you'rebasically just drinking like
leek water.
Yeah yeah, leek broth, leekwater, same thing.
I mean this whole industry isreally not regulated.

Speaker 1 (10:00):
Yeah, even now.
Okay, yeah, even now, okay.
So hazard claimed that thedeceased had succumbed to
undisclosed.
Undisclosed or hithertoundiagnosed illnesses such as
cancer or psoriasis.
To be fair, one of them did dieof cancer.

(10:22):
She would have starved to deathanyway.
I'll talk about that in a minute.
Her opponents claimed that theyall died of.
Why was she going on a diet ifshe had cancer?
I don't think she knew she hadcancer.
Oh, that's awful.
Her opponents claimed that theyall died of starvation.
Local residents refer to thesanitarium as Starvation Heights
.
Yeah, so there's this authorfrom that part of washington.

(10:47):
His name is greg olson.
He wrote a book on this calledstarvation heights.
Oh wait, I meant to take thatout.
Sorry, I'm not save the part Iwanted.
Okay, so anyway, I accidentallydeleted a bit.

(11:09):
There are these two wealthysisters whose names one is
Claire and I think one is likeDorothy.
Maybe they were very wealthyand they first saw an ad for
Hazard's book in a newspaperwhile they were staying at the

(11:30):
very lush Empress Hotel inVictoria, british Columbia.
So they were not seriously ill,but they did feel that they
were suffering from a variety ofminor ailments.
Okay, dorothea and Claire aretheir names.
Minor ailments Okay, dorotheaand Claire are their names.
Dorothea complained of swellingglands and rheumatic pains,
while Claire had been told shehad a dropped uterus.

(11:50):
The sisters were greatbelievers in what we today would
call alternative medicine.

Speaker 2 (11:59):
And had-.
I was gonna ask you like whythey thought that a diet would
help with these problems, butyou just answered the question.

Speaker 1 (12:05):
Well, I don't think that that's uncommon for the
time.
It's not even that uncommontoday.

Speaker 2 (12:11):
Yeah, the idea that it's very true, I mean it's not
uncommon, but like it should be.
I know it shouldn't be, but Ifeel sick and people are like
have you tried stop eatinggluten?
Yeah, have you tried stopeating gluten?

Speaker 1 (12:23):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.
So the sisters?
Okay, they were believers inalternative medicine and had
already given up both meat andcorsets, so at least they did
that in an attempt to improvetheir health.
I'm sure the corsets must havehelped.
Yeah, getting rid of thosewould have helped quite a bit.
Sure the corsets must havehelped.

(12:44):
Yeah, getting rid of thosewould have helped quite a bit.
Almost as soon as they learnedof hazard's institute of natural
therapeutics see, I wasconfused by that, because she
called it.
What did she call it?
Wilderness heights.
But then the other anothersource called it, uh, institute
of natural therapeutics, I don'tknow they became determined to

(13:05):
undergo what Claire calledHazard's most beautiful
treatment when the women reachedSeattle so this is just outside
Seattle in February 1911,.
After signing up for thetreatment, they were told that
the sanitarium wasn't quiteready yet.

(13:26):
So they instead were sent toHazard's Apartments in Seattle's
Capitol Hill, where she beganfeeding them a broth made from
canned tomatoes.
They would get a cup of ittwice a day and nothing else.
Jesus, I don't know if waterwas allowed or not.

(13:46):
Yeah, I was gonna ask becausedehydration, yeah, I I assume
they were allowed at least somewater, unless the broth was
considered but water doesn'tmake you fat, no, well, I'm not
saying that.
I'm not saying that they saidno or or yes, I'm just saying

(14:07):
there there was no mention ofwater.

Speaker 2 (14:09):
I mean, I guess like people are like water, wait and
then like, but like that's notreally wait, okay, so they got a
cup of that twice a day andnothing else.

Speaker 1 (14:21):
they were given hours long enemas in the bathtub
Hours long.
I've never had one of those,but I can imagine how awful they
are.

Speaker 2 (14:30):
How.

Speaker 1 (14:35):
I don't know, dude, I don't know, like I didn't read
her book, so I can't tell youwhat her logic is.

Speaker 2 (14:41):
Isn't?
I don't understand how an enemais hours long, isn't it just so
like you do it, and then it's,I think they probably did a few
different ones.
Are you just doing it over andover because like?
Probably yeah, flushed out.

Speaker 1 (14:53):
It's flushed out like what else I don't know, dude, I
don't know, I think.
I think she was a sadist.
So they were given hourslongenemas in the bathtub, which was
covered with canvas supports,because the girls started to
faint during their treatment,because they have nothing in
them.

Speaker 2 (15:12):
They're dehydrated.
They're like starving.
Well, again, we don't know ifthey had water or not.
Well, I guess they're going tobe hydrated from their multiple
enemas, dehydrated from theirmultiple enemas.

Speaker 1 (15:25):
Okay, so they weighed about 70 pounds when they were
transferred to Hazard's.
It says Hazard's home.
Two months later I don't knowif they mean sanitarium or not
this one was extremelyfrustrating because the various

(15:46):
what do I want to call it?
Because the various sources ofinformation all said different
things.
It was very irritating.
Okay, so I don't know if it wasthe home or the sanitarium.

Speaker 2 (15:57):
Their family.
A sanitarium is the perfectplace for a diet.

Speaker 1 (16:02):
Well, there were.
I mean, a lot of the placeswhere diets were done were
sanitariums.
Yeah, it's just a catch-allphrase for homes in places to go
and convalesce places where westick women men too.
It's not just women in the thatdid this treatment.

Speaker 2 (16:24):
A lot of men did it how, what is, what is the
percentage?
Because usually it's mostlywomen who are dieting and like
and are the targets of diets Idon't think anybody did a
percentage okay.

Speaker 1 (16:37):
So their family didn't know what was going on,
as the sisters were used totheir family disapproving of
their various health quests andtherefore didn't tell them where
they were going.
The only clue something waswrong came when one of them sent
a telegram to their childhoodnurse, margaret, who was then

(16:59):
visiting family in Australia.
Oh, I think the family was fromNew Zealand.
I think the ladies were fromNew Zealand.

Speaker 2 (17:04):
How long were they doing this?
At this point?

Speaker 1 (17:07):
Probably at least a few weeks, maybe a few months, I
don't know.
They didn't really say itcontained only a few words, but
seems so nonsensical that thenurse went to check up on them.
Dr Hazard's husband I don'tknow, I shouldn't say Dr Hazard
that lady's husband, SamuelHazard, who was a former army

(17:30):
lieutenant who, by the way, hadserved time in jail for bigamy
Wow, Nice met Margaret inVancouver and while they were on
the bus to their hotel, Samueldelivered the news that Claire
was dead.
So one of the sisters had died,as Hazard later explained.

Speaker 2 (17:54):
You're like she's dead but she's thin.

Speaker 1 (17:59):
As Linda Hazard later explained it, the culprit was a
course of drugs administered toClaire in childhood which had
shrunk her internal organs andcaused psoriasis of the liver.
According to her, claire hadbeen too far gone for the
treatment to save her.
Margaret wasn't a doctor, butshe knew bullshit story when she

(18:20):
heard one, and Claire's body,which had been embalmed and was
on display at the local mortuary, looked like it belonged to
another person.
The hands, facial shape andcolor of the hair all looked
wrong to her.
That may or may not beimportant.
Later, once she was in Olalanow we're just going to call it

(18:41):
that she discovered that, uh,dorothea weighed only around 50
pounds.
Oh jesus christ, her sittingbones protruded so sharply that
she couldn't sit down withoutpain.
It's worked, huzzah yep but shedidn't want to leave, despite
the fact that she was clearlystarving to death.

(19:03):
What the fuck?

Speaker 2 (19:04):
What?
Like you're as thin as can be.
What else is there to do?
I don't know what.

Speaker 1 (19:12):
I don't know.
I doubt she was thinkingclearly yeah.

Speaker 2 (19:17):
No, yeah, that's why she should be removed, because
she's obviously not of soundmind.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:23):
The Hazards had been appointed the executor of
Claire's considerable estate aswell as Dorothea's guardian for
life.
Dorothea had also signed overher power of attorney to Samuel
Hazard.
Isn't that convenient?
Yeah.
The Hazards had helpedthemselves to Claire's clothes,

(19:44):
household goods and an estimated$6,000 worth of the sisters'
diamonds, sapphires and otherjewels.

Speaker 2 (19:54):
You know they could have killed them in a more
merciful fashion than that.

Speaker 1 (19:58):
Yeah, Linda Hazard even delivered a report to
Margaret concerning Dorothea'smental state while dressed in
one of Claire's robes.
So that was nice of her,although I do want to say this
lady bought what she was selling.
She believed in her thing We'llget to that in a minute Was she

(20:21):
50 pounds herself.
We'll get to it.
Margaret got nowhere.
Trying to convince Hazard tolet Dorothea leave Her position
as a servant hindered her, asshe often felt too timid to
contradict those in a classabove her.
Hazard was also known for herpower over people.
She seemed to hypnotize themwith her booming voice and

(20:45):
flashing dark eyes.
Some people wondered ifHazard's interest in
spiritualism, theosophy and theoccult had given her strange
abilities such as being able tohypnotize people into starving
themselves to death.
Theosophy I don't know, that'sthe word that was used.
I'm intrigued.

(21:08):
It took the arrival of JohnHerbert, one of the sister's
uncles, who Margaret had calledin order to try and free
Dorothea.
In order for that to happen, hehad to pay nearly a thousand
dollars in order for her toleave the property.
Herbert then got the BritishVice, Counsel Agassiz, involved.

(21:34):
Once they started researchingthe case, they discovered that
Hazard was connected to thedeaths of several other wealthy
individuals.
Many had signed large portionsof their estates over to her
before their deaths.
One former state legislature,Louis E Radar, even owned the

(21:55):
property where her sanatoriumwas located.
Radar died in May 1911 afterbeing moved from a hotel near
Pike Place Market to anundisclosed location when
authorities tried to questionhim how he died, I don't know.
Another British patient, JohnIvan Flux, had come to America

(22:18):
to buy a ranch, but he died withjust $70 to his name but he
died with just $70 to his name.
A New Zealand man named EugeneWakeline was also reported to
have shot himself while fastingunder Hazard's care.
Hazard had gotten herselfappointed to, had got herself

(22:40):
appointed administer of hisestate, draining it of all his
funds.
In all, at least a dozen peopleare said to have starved to
death under her care, althoughsome claim the total could be
significantly higher.
Wikipedia had the number around15 starvation deaths, plus one
who would have died ofstarvation anyway because of the

(23:01):
type of cancer she had, andalso wake line, the dew
mentioned above, who may havekilled himself or may have been
murdered by hazard.

Speaker 2 (23:09):
They don't really know so I looked up theosophy
and it is a religion orphilosophical system that
includes the following beliefsuniversal brotherhood,
reincarnation, monism,emanationism, which is the

(23:30):
belief that the universe is anoutward reflection of the
absolute, universal tolerance,universal identity and spiritual
liberation, and it has beencriticized for being a form of
pantheism and for denyingpersonal immortality.
So there we go.

(23:50):
It's like a weird religion orcult.
Interesting, it's got thisweird symbol.
It's like all these religioussymbols and it says there is no
religion higher than truth,including a swastika, although
we do know that, like before,the swastika was used by hitler,

(24:14):
it was like a hindu symbol ofpeace, so I'm assuming that
that's the use, hopefully, of it.

Speaker 1 (24:22):
There's also like an om there's like well, the nazis
didn't exist at that point intime, so you can kind of see for
it.
There's also like an ohm.
There's like well, the nazisdidn't exist at that point in
time so you can kind of see foryourself.

Speaker 2 (24:29):
There's like an aura, boris, there's like, yeah,
everything, yeah an onk.

Speaker 1 (24:37):
So on august 15th 1911, local authorities arrested
hazard on charges offirst-degree murder for starving
Claire Williamson to death.
The following January, hazard'strial opened at the county
courthouse.
Spectators crowded the buildingto hear servants and nurses
testify about how the sistershad cried out in pain during

(24:58):
their treatments, sufferedthrough enemas that lasted for
hours and endured baths thatscalded at the touch.
Then there was what theprosecution called financial
starvation, forged checks,letters and other fraud that had
emptied the Williamson estate.
To make matters darker, therewere rumors, though never proven

(25:19):
, that Hazard was in league withthe local mortuary and had
switched Claire's body with ahealthier one, so no one could
see just how skeletal she waswhen she died, which might
explain why she didn't lookanything like what the nurse

(25:40):
thought she should look like.
Hazard herself refused to takeany responsibility for Claire's
death or the deaths of any ofher other patients.
She believed, as she wrote, inFasting for the Cure of Disease.
That quote death in the fastnever results from deprivation

(26:00):
of food, but is the inevitableconsequence of vitality zapped
to the last degree by organicimperfection.
End quote.
So basically, if you diedduring a fast, you actually had
something else that killed you.
You didn't die from fasting.
You died from some unknownsomething or other.
In Hazard's mind, the trial wasan attack on her position as a

(26:25):
successful woman and a battlebetween conventional medicine
and more natural methods.
Other names in the naturalhealth world agreed with her and
several even offered theirsupport during the trial,
including Henry S Tanner.
He was a doctor who fastedpublicly for 40 days in New York

(26:47):
City in 1880.
He offered to testify in order,to quote hold up the
conventional medical fraternityto the derision of the world.
End.
Quote Hazard's fasting practicewas extreme, but fasting in
some form has been practiced fora very long time.
As she noted in her book,fasting for health and spiritual

(27:10):
development is an ancient ideapracticed both by yogis and
Jesus.
The ancient Greeks thoughtdemons could enter the mouth
during eating, which helpedencourage the idea of fasting
for purification.
Pythagoras, moses and John theBaptist all recognized the
spiritual power of the fast,while Cotton Mather thought
prayer and fasting would solvethe Salem witchcraft epidemic.

(27:35):
Yeah, I know, and it's stillgoing on today.
The practice experienced arevival in the late 19th century
when a doctor named EdwardDewey I think that's the person
we talked about before wrote abook called the True Science of
Living, in which he said thatquote every disease that
afflicts mankind develops frommore or less habitual eating.

(27:59):
In excess of the supply ofgastric juices end quote.
In excess of the supply ofgastric juices end quote.
He also advocated what hecalled the no breakfast plan.
Dewey's patient, and laterpublisher Charles Haskell,
declared himself quotemiraculously cured end quote
after a fast, and his own book,perfect Health how to Get it and

(28:19):
how to Keep it, helps promotethe idea of starving yourself
for your own good.
It and how to keep it helpspromote the idea of starving
yourself for your own good.
Even Upton Sinclair, author ofthe Jungle, got into the act
with his nonfiction book, theFasting Cure, published in 1911.
Now, to be fair, while at thetime there had been efforts to

(28:41):
make food safer, food even inthe late 19th century and even
into the 20th century wentlargely unregulated and it
actually could be very dangerousto eat.
Lots of people died.

Speaker 2 (28:55):
Yeah, I was going to say that's why I'm to Sinclair
and I want to eat.

Speaker 1 (28:59):
For example, formaldehyde solutions were used
as preservatives in milk andmeat and at some point and I
don't remember when it stoppedor if we know when it stopped,
but they used to put pureed calfbrains in milk to give it its

(29:20):
frothy bit.
You probably weren't drinkingcoffee, you were drinking
sawdust.
Like it was bad.
If you really want to bedisgusted, I suggest reading the
Poison Squad by Deborah Bloom,which is about the first real
efforts in food safety.

Speaker 2 (29:35):
My microphone is sitting on it right now.

Speaker 1 (29:38):
Your microphone is sitting on it right now and the
idea of fasting your way intohealth again is still around.
Um, there's still a lot of dietfads like juice cleanses,
extreme calorie deprivationdiets, intermittent fasting,
intermittent fasting and Ididn't know this existed.

(29:58):
But the breatharians do youknow who they are Breatharians.
Breatharians they try to liveon light and air alone.
I don't know how that works.
I think they would die after afew days.

Speaker 2 (30:15):
Yeah, sounds like a very short-lived time.

Speaker 1 (30:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (30:18):
One way or the other, yeah.

Speaker 1 (30:21):
Anyway, the jury in Hazard's trial was unmoved by
her claims of politicallymotivated persecution.
After a short period ofdeliberation they returned a
verdict of manslaughter.
Hazard was sentenced to two to20 years in prison and her
license was revoked.
Do you want to be mad?

(30:43):
Sure?
She was released on parole in1915 after serving two years.
Governor Ernest Lister thengave her a full pardon.
The next year, hazard and herhusband moved to New Zealand

(31:04):
where she practiced as adietician and osteopath.
Right In 1917, a and Iapologize because I know I'm
going to mispronounce this, Ieven looked it up, but I still
have difficulty A Wanganuinewspaper reported that Hazard

(31:26):
held a practicing certificatefrom the Washington State
Medical Board Because she usedthe title doctor.
She was actually charged inAuckland under the Medical
Practitioners Act for practicingmedicine, will not register to
do so and she was found guilty.
Guilty and fined five poundsplus costs, which is
approximately $434 today, and Idon't know if the $434, I think

(31:55):
that's just the five pounds.
So I think she actually paidmore because of costs.
Yeah, three years later shereturned tohington and opened a
new sanitarium, known publiclyas a school of health, since her
medical license had beenrevoked, and continued to
supervise fast until the placeburned in 1935 and was never

(32:18):
rebuilt built.
Hazard died of starvation in1938 while attempting her own
fasting cure.
So she believed what she wasselling.
Yeah, um, I've got more.
So there are some excerpts fromthe journal of earl edward
erdman, who was one of hazard'svictims.

(32:40):
He died starvation, so it's alittle bit long, but bear with
me.
February 1, saw Dr Hazard andbegan treatment.
This date no breakfast Mashedsoup, dinner mashed soup, supper
, soup.
Not suit.
February 5th through 7th oneorange breakfast Mashed soup,

(33:03):
dinner mashed soup, mashed soup,supper.

Speaker 2 (33:10):
Mash what is.
Do you have a recipe by chance,Like what is mashed soup?

Speaker 1 (33:16):
No, I think it's just the, the like asparagus or
whatever, like mashed, I don't.
I don't know that it hadanything in it.
I think it was strained okay,but I don't know.
February 8 one orange breakfast, mashed soup, dinner mashed
soup supper.
February 9th through 11th oneorange breakfast, strained soup,

(33:40):
dinner strained soup supper.
So I guess for some of themthey did get to have little
pieces of whatever oh lucky them.
Yeah, february 12th one orangebreakfast, one orange dinner,
one orange supper god, thatwould have been a horrible day.

Speaker 2 (33:56):
So three oranges and one day yeah, that's it.
We're probably talking about,like probably not big ass navel
oranges no although even a bigass navel orange doesn't have
that many calories no I'm gonnajust hang on, okay, I'll find
out how many calories is in anorange all right.

Speaker 1 (34:15):
February 13th two orange breakfast, no dinner, no,
no supper.
February 14th one cup ofstrained tomato broth at 6 pm.
February 15th one cup hotstrained tomato soup.
Night and morning.
February 16th one cup hotstrained soup.

(34:37):
Am and pm.
Slept better last night, headquite dizzy, eyes yellow,
streaked and red.
February 17th ate three orangestoday.
February 19th called on DrDawson today at his home.

Speaker 2 (34:53):
Slept well Saturday night 45 calories oh my God so
three oranges is less than 150calories.

Speaker 1 (35:01):
My goodness For a grown man.
That's ridiculous.
For anybody I know for anybody,but especially for a grown man.
February 20, ate strained juiceof two small oranges at 10 am,
dizzy all day.
Ate strained juice of two smalloranges at 5 pm.
So he didn't even get theorange, he just got the juice

(35:22):
from the orange.
Jesus, february 21,.
Ate one at 5 pm.
So he didn't even get theorange, he just got the juice
from the orange.

Speaker 2 (35:24):
jesus february 21, age one I don't even understand,
because the the fiber and thepectin and stuff that's like the
part that's good and like andlike it helps you metabolize it
in a healthier way.
That's why fruit is so muchhealthier than fruit juice.

Speaker 1 (35:46):
Well it's, I don't know.
I guess she either didn't careor whatever.
February where was I?
21st Ate one cup settled andstrained tomato broth?
Backache today, just below ribs.
February 22nd Ate juice of twosmall oranges at 10 am.
Backache today, in right side,just below ribs.
February 22nd ate juice of twosmall oranges at 10 am.

(36:06):
Back ate today, in right side,just below ribs.
February 23rd slept but littlelast night.
Ate two small oranges at 9 am.
Went after milk and felt verybad.
Don't let me feel bad.
Sorry, ate two small oranges at6 pm.
No wonder you feel bad.
Sorry, ate two small oranges at6 pm.

Speaker 2 (36:24):
Like of course you feel bad, You're starving
yourself.

Speaker 1 (36:28):
Slept better Wednesday night.
Kind of frontal headache.
In am.
Ate two small oranges.
10 am.
Ate one and a half cups hottomato soup.
At 6 pm Heart hit up to 95minute and sweat considerable.

(36:50):
February 25th slept pretty wellThursday night ate one and a
half cups tomato broth.
11 am.
Ate one and a half cups tomatobroth.
6 pm.
Pain right below ribs.
February 26th.
Did not sleep so very wellFriday night 26,.
Did not sleep so very wellFriday night.
Pain in right side just belowribs and back pain quit in night

(37:13):
.
Ate one and a half cups tomatobroth at 10.45 am.
Ate two and a half pumps smalloranges at 4.30 pm.
Felt better afternoon than forthe last week.
So that was the regimen, alongwith the enemas and the massages
, and it probably lasted thatway until his death, which
happened mid-March.

Speaker 2 (37:31):
So the following month Do they say why did she
choose the foods that she chose,like asparagus, oranges,
tomatoes, Like?
Why those foods?

Speaker 1 (37:41):
I'm sure she says it in her book, but I didn't read
her book.
I didn't have time.
I was reading Helter Skelterright, fair enough I don't know,
maybe they were easilyaccessible to her at the time.
I thought that oranges werekind of expensive and hard to
come by I don't know, maybe theywere, and so that's why she
probably went after people whohad money very true she's like

(38:03):
you're eating oranges, yeah.
Yeah, I don't know, peoplefollowed it, you know.

Speaker 2 (38:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:18):
Do we have anything to say about it other than
that's really fucked up?

Speaker 2 (38:22):
It's really fucked up , yeah, I mean obviously than
that's really fucked up.
It's really fucked up.
Yeah, I, I mean obviouslythat's really extreme.
But yeah, we're talking theother day about how, like
extreme diets are going on yeah,maybe not quite that extreme,
but like yeah, people are stillgetting into these extreme diets
.
Like we're talking about thatunfortunate influencer on that

(38:49):
raw fruit diet.

Speaker 1 (38:50):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (38:51):
Who died in Malaysia?
Yeah, and there's.
Was I talking to you or was I?
Was I talking to you about thecarnivore diet?
Yes, yeah to you.
Or was I?
Was I talking to you about thecarnivore diet?
Yes, yeah.
People who just eat like rawmeat and eggs and like sardines
and, yeah, and butter and anddairy too, yeah, but like no, no

(39:15):
vegetable.
Yeah, no fruit, I think, evenlike they're like just a little
bit of dairy or whatever, butlike go ham on, like all the
sardines you want or some shitlike that, and it's like where
are you getting your vitamin Cfrom?
Right?
And also like it's like rawmeat, so like you are not

(39:41):
actually a carnivore.
Right, and like, humans havebeen cooking our food like since
, like before our species, Sincelike what?
Like Homo habilis, right,Mm-hmm, and so we're very
accustomed to, although certaincultures, right, like Inuits or

(40:01):
whatever, and like cultures whohave more access to like really
fresh foods, right, like tend tohave more fresh and raw foods
in the diet, and and cultureswho, like maybe are more
land-bound and stuff like wetend to like cook the fuck out
of our foods because, of course,right, yeah, like you know,
like is like a pretty new thing,yeah it is.

Speaker 1 (40:25):
It's only a little over a century.
Yeah, yeah, or about a century.

Speaker 2 (40:32):
Yeah, yeah.
And just I don't know likethat's a lot of faith in, like
you know USDA yeah, a lot of alot of faith in like you know
usda yeah, um, but like it's apretty sure bet, like, unless

(40:52):
you have like whatever like foodallergies or restrictions, or
like arfid, or like you know,like a reason why you need to
restrict, like the types of foodthat you eat.
Like, yeah, we probably arebetter off eating like a diverse
selection of foods than eatingjust like only raw meat or only
like tropical fruit.
Like, yeah, we should like,because, even like, while you

(41:17):
were saying like oh, orange,orange, orange, tomato juice,
I'm like is she like obsessedwith vitamin c?

Speaker 1 (41:23):
like what I don't.
I don't think they really hadthat kind of thought back.

Speaker 2 (41:28):
That's true, but like that's what I was thinking of,
like that's a lot of like citricacid.

Speaker 1 (41:33):
Yeah okay, I think we've talked about our food ills
enough.
Are we gonna move on to helterskelter?
Uh, yes.
So besides the fact that it wasinsanely long and insanely
detailed, yep how was it?

Speaker 2 (41:47):
I know you had issues yeah, yeah, I was just just
with all the I don't knowcombined world stress and just
hearing about just this shittydude and like the shitty, just
terrible people in the case,mm-hmm, and you know, I don't

(42:07):
know, it just had me down alittle bit, yeah, and it also
pissed me off that I don't knowlike.
I mean, it's a dark, it's agrim thing, like even this guy,
though like Bugliosi Is that howyou even say his name Bugliosi?
Bugliosi, something like that.
Yeah, close enough, he's likethe district attorney or

(42:32):
whatever.
He like prosecuted Manson.
And he was a deputy districtattorney yeah, deputy, I think
so, deputy district attorney.
He sure may sound like he wasthe most important dude district
attorney, is?
He?
Sure may sound like he's themost important dude, um, but
even he, like he made it seemlike I don't know, in some ways

(42:53):
like he's glorifying himthroughout the book and
especially in comparison with,like, his followers.
I thought in some way like that, that that little bit where
he's like did he stop my watch?
I'm like come on really and andlike just talking about how, oh

(43:13):
, everybody thought he was sosmart or whatever, and he's I
don't know the way he's likealways talking to him.
He's like I don't know.

Speaker 1 (43:25):
See, I didn't get that Because for me what I saw
was one, and maybe it's adifference between like reading
the page and audio reading,because what I got was one.
Sometimes he was just beingsarcastic and funny or trying to

(43:45):
be.
It didn't always come off well,but also like the buddy-buddy
thing, I think, based on otherlawyers, I know that it was a
ploy to make him feelcomfortable.

Speaker 2 (44:03):
Sure, yeah, I know that he's trying to get stuff
out of him.
But he talks about him more Idon't know how do I put it like
as an equal, like or on evenfooting, than he talks about
like, say, like the girls in thecase, like he really talks down
about them a lot, and that'strue, like there's a very just

(44:26):
patriarchal veneer.
Like twice in the book he callslike two, uh, two different
occasions he calls manson'sfemale followers, refers to them
as you, little bitch, I thoughtthat was manson calling him.
No, well, yeah, manson sure didplenty of times, but no,
bugliosi does.

(44:46):
Twice in one case where uh, oneof, uh, one of manson's female
followers and two of his malefollowers were stalking bugliosi
, sorry, and and he's liketrying to like put them off,
like like I'm not a person tomess with and but he calls like
the female, you little bitch.

(45:09):
Like back off, you, littlebitch, yeah.
And then he tells the dudeshe's like don't mess with me or
I'll clock you.
Yeah, but like I'm like there'sa a different energy, right,
the way he's talking to her andthe way he's talking to them.
And then another case whereSusan Atkins knocks his papers

(45:30):
off the desk and he's like youlittle bitch, and which
obviously, like she was being abitch but like you're a fucking
district attorney, like.
Act like a professional.
Like, don't call the defendantor the.
You're a fucking districtattorney, act like a
professional.
Don't call the defendant or the.
What's the?

(45:50):
She was a defendant, yeah,defendant.
Don't call her a little bitch.

Speaker 1 (45:55):
I wonder.
Well see, I didn't I guess Ididn't get to that part, but I
wonder if maybe he was BecauseManson treated them that way?
Yeah, and I'm wondering ifthat's.
If that's a similar ploy tobeing buddy-buddy with Manson.
You know, I mean, I'm nottrying to.

Speaker 2 (46:16):
No, because later I mean at least with the in the
case with susan atkins headmitted that he made a mistake
so I don't think it was a ploy.
I think it was just, yeah, a gutreaction.
Yeah, but it just showed thatthe whole trial has a veneer of
patriarchy like over it, where,like yeah, of course Manson is a

(46:41):
sexist piece of shit that'sobviously known from Bugliosi to
even like the defense attorneysare all there and one part.
There the defense attorneys aretrying to argue that they

(47:03):
couldn't possibly be guiltybecause women are not capable of
violence.

Speaker 1 (47:09):
That was a thought for a long time.

Speaker 2 (47:11):
Yeah, which is like, yeah, it's bullshit that that's
using they're trying to use itfor their own benefit, right
case.
But like, yeah, you know justso many aspects of it.
Yeah, it's very sexist.
And and the other thing thatthat just irk me about it is how

(47:34):
, you know, we talk about how,in fact, a big part of his case
was about how Manson had thismind control over his, over the
members of his family,particularly over the women, how
he had brainwash him, andthey're like like, well, how do

(47:55):
you get to those?
Like, how does he have thatcontrol?
And he kind of gloss over it andit's through.
He talked about it, but he justgloss over how it's through a
you know, like abuse, like likea mental and emotional
manipulation and like sexualcoercion tactics and like in the

(48:19):
one case where, even like, theyget up on the one of the one of
the witnesses, that one guygets up on the stand, the the
guy who was a ranch hand at theum, what's it called?
Spawn ranch, yeah, to testifyagainst him.
And they're like, well, whatkind of coercion tactics?

(48:40):
and he starts to describe indetail how manson would sexually
coerce, like the women, yeah,and they're like whoa, you can't
talk about that, it'sinappropriate.
I'm like.

Speaker 1 (48:52):
I'm like this is a murder trial well, you know, at
the time, though I I'm sure itwas inappropriate.
I mean, they couldn't even Iremember reading um, where is it
?
Is it?
It's over here the trial oflizzie borden yeah and the
defense attorney was right.

(49:14):
There's that big thing aboutblood being on the dress, right,
and he wanted to argue that itwas menstrual blood, right, but
he couldn't.
He had a hard time getting thatin because that was considered
inappropriate at the time.
You know so, I think I know so,I think I know it's frustrating

(49:35):
, but it's also 1969, 1970 it'sjust everything regarding like
women yeah, it was awful yeahyeah yeah, it's not.
It's better than some, but it'snot.
Um.
It actually leads me to a tinyissue I have that correlates
that it's not really an issue.
I don't mind that they did it.

(49:56):
But if you notice in there, ifyou go to the crime scenes, um,
specifically those of sharontate, it'll be closer to the
what you know, I don't know whatpage, but here I'll find it for
you also I thought thatbugliosi was a little bit
big-headed on himself oh yeah,he did put manson away I mean, I

(50:21):
mean, sure, but he's like, he'slike, he's like talking shit
about just about everybody elselike involved in the case,
except for himself.
Yeah, yeah um, okay, let me getthis okay, and then I talk about
it.
So you see how that it's justwhited out, the bodies at the
bottom, yep, okay, so I'm finewith that right To not show to

(50:44):
protect the victims.
Yeah, essentially, right, youcan't really tell if you.
If you look at the actual, theactual um photographs of sharon,

(51:05):
tate and um, I think that'sabigail folger, right, it's
horrifying those.
Those pictures don't convey howawful it is.
Yeah, and, like you, rememberhow he describes how she was
wearing a white nightgown but itlooked red.
Yes, like, if you look at thepicture, he's not exaggerating,
you know.
Yeah, but anyway, I understandthe doing of that right To
protect the victims and families.

(51:26):
Point to, uh, specifically,when you said he kind of glossed
over the fact that, uh, heraped the 13 year old, right, he
used the term, uh, what was theterm sodomize?

Speaker 2 (51:44):
well, no, it was the other term, he in other and at
other points in the in the texthe uses the term make love to
refer to instances which aredefinitely rape or implied rape.

Speaker 1 (52:12):
Like in one point he says Charles Mansize that I was
thinking of.
But what I meant was, if we'regoing to do that, then I think
you should update the language alittle bit.
Where you can.
You know, not in all instances,like when it's a direct quote,
leave it Right.
But if you're like say it's,don't say it's, it's, it's God.
What is that?

(52:32):
Where's my phone?

Speaker 2 (52:35):
say it's, it's, it's god, what is that?
Where's my phone?
No, I yeah, I thought aboutthat too, I although I don't
have this copy with the updatedthings what but I did think,
like in all these years, likethey didn't update some of this
terminology, yeah, oh, uh, yousaid.

Speaker 1 (52:48):
And when the author described him initiating, in
quote marks a 13 year old girlyes, is it um, initiate.
Yeah, that's what youemphasized, so that's what I
assumed the word you weretalking about yeah, yes, so yes,
they.

Speaker 2 (53:01):
He did use the word initiate yes, and that bothered
me.

Speaker 1 (53:04):
Yeah, it bothers me too, but that's what, like, my
connect was like if you're, ifyou're gonna do some updating,
do all the updating you know.

Speaker 2 (53:15):
Like let's use the correct words if you're gonna do
that also the fact that he'sdescribing exactly what was done
to, said, 13 year old, althoughhe doesn't say the name of the
the member, like it'sdehumanizing to that person.

Speaker 1 (53:31):
Yeah, so that pissed, that whole thing just pissed me
off yeah, so I mean that it'snot even an issue really for me,
but it, you know, I kind offeel like if you're going to do
some of it, do all of it right,although maybe that has always
been in the book because hedidn't want the family to see
the the photographs, but yeah,so, and we've ripped it apart.

(53:53):
How about stuff that we likedabout it?

Speaker 2 (53:58):
I like that talk about what a racist, sexist
piece of shit Manson is.
I think that I think in and Iread an article or a couple of
articles actually two differentarticles about how in media and
stuff like it, often, like mediaportrayals of Charles Manson

(54:24):
often gloss over the fact thathe's just a glammed up white
supremacist and, like this bookmakes it pretty clear that that
is what he is.
Um, yeah, I liked.
I like that it doesn't dancearound in fact that that's his.
That's his like main.
That's his main.

(54:46):
Um, uh, what's the word likeargument?

Speaker 1 (54:52):
uh, against for manson's motive yeah, media
portrayals really gloss overthat and yeah, they usually just
say he wanted to start a racewar.
It doesn't talk about like howfucked up he really was.

Speaker 2 (55:10):
Yeah, exactly, it's racist exactly yeah, and it also
, although the book does this,some too like they also like
make it seem like manson's thishippie with this like free love
commune, and he's not like, no,he only he didn't like hippies,
which is brought up in the book.

Speaker 1 (55:32):
Yeah, he was really offended to be called a hippie.

Speaker 2 (55:34):
People only thought he was a hippie because, like he
, he had long hair.
Yeah, he had long hair and hedressed in buckskin or whatever
but like that's how.

Speaker 1 (55:45):
That's how they saw anybody with long hair yeah,
yeah.

Speaker 2 (55:48):
That's why I was gonna say anybody who?
Was like outside of the normsof society, but like, very much
like today.
We would just consider him aneo-nazi.
Yeah, you know, like, like,nothing special like just
another, you know, and that'sand all that's part of what

(56:09):
pissed me off too is like, likethis dude that all these people
like glamorize and they're likehe.
Why?
Why was he so dynamic, orwhatever.
I'm like he's just a sexistracist.

Speaker 1 (56:21):
Another piece of shit , dude well, yeah, we know that
now.
Yeah, he, there had to besomething that he had that got
all of these people and not justyoung girls and young boys, but
like he had all kinds of peoplefooled, I mean they kind of
talk about it.

Speaker 2 (56:41):
He was obviously like a master of manipulation.

Speaker 1 (56:44):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (56:46):
They talk about like how he had all these masks, like
he knew how to play eachdifferent person.

Speaker 1 (56:53):
Yeah mass, like he knew how to play each different
person, yeah, and I think whathe could find their
vulnerabilities and exploit themto the maximum, and I think
that is fascinating for people,because I don't know of anybody
before him that did that andthere aren't that many after him
.
Yeah, that did that, that hadthat kind of control, not and

(57:15):
again, not just over hisfollowers, but of completely
random people, like there wereso few people who saw through
his bullshit.
Yeah, you know, although I'mnot saying he should be
glamorized, I'm just saying Ican see now how people have that
interest in him.
Yeah, you, you know, I wasnever interested.
I didn't give a shit aboutManson and like that wasn't my

(57:36):
my bag right, like I felt badfor the victims and it was a
horrible thing, but it was not,it was not my cult of choice.
Yeah, shall we say, that soundsterrible too.
It's just not one thatfascinated me, I guess.
But after reading this book,that fascinated me, I guess.
But after reading this book, Ican see how there's a
fascination with him and I canand it does kind of I do have a

(58:04):
fascination of how, like, howmanipulative he could be.

Speaker 2 (58:09):
You know, everybody.

Speaker 1 (58:10):
Again, it's not just followers, it's everybody, kind
of like Jim Jones.
Jim Jones was able to do thateverybody.

Speaker 2 (58:17):
Again, it's not just followers, it's everybody Kind
of like Jim Jones.
Jim Jones was able to do thattoo.

Speaker 1 (58:21):
Yeah, although the author's like.
No, he's not like Jim Jones.
Did he say that?
Yeah, like at the end.

Speaker 2 (58:24):
But I was like, yeah, he kind of is.

Speaker 1 (58:25):
When was it?
Was the afterword many yearslater, because Jonestown wasn't
until this.

Speaker 2 (58:29):
It goes into like the 80s or whatever oh, okay, then
that would happen, yeah and um,anyway, he, he wants to separate
him from jim jones, because jimjones like killed himself and
his followers, but he didn't.
He wants to say that manson isunique because he ordered his
followers to kill and I'm like,I'm like lots of people have

(58:52):
ordered people to kill but mostof them are, like, sanctioned.
Yeah, like his hero, mance'shero, hitler.

Speaker 1 (59:01):
I think he probably meant cult-wise.
Yeah, you know, I mean, that'shappened many times after, but I
don't know that.

Speaker 2 (59:08):
there were many before.
Maybe not as many in the US,but like yeah, not as many in
the US yeah.

Speaker 1 (59:12):
But like yeah, I mean there are in the US too, but
again, like, I'm sure ithappened at some point.
But I think Manson I don't wantto say Manson is unique, he's
not unique, he's a piece of shit.
But I can see how people arefascinated by him and how people
think he's unique yeah.

(59:37):
Do you think it also got so muchattention?
Because I think I think hisvictims were famous people,
partly that, but I also thinkthat it was because, honestly, I
think if sharon tate hadn'tdied, it wouldn't have been a
thing, yeah, but I think it's aculmination of things.
I think it's fame and wealth,um, I think it's because manson,
he even says in there, likewomen know he's on trial for
murder, and he gives them alittle wink and a smile and

(59:57):
they're like, really, they'renot offended by it, they're, you
know, they're fine with it.
So I think it's his allure.
I think it's because of thespectacle that the girl that the
whole thing caused, yeah, thatthe girl, uh, that the whole
thing caused, yeah, I think it's, um again, how he was able to

(01:00:19):
play so many people.
And I think, uh, because eventhough he wasn't a hippie or any
of that stuff, he had thatright and that was still a big,
um, divisive thing at that pointin time.
And I think it's the girls too,the young girls, the fact that
these young girls, predominantlyyoung girls right, there was

(01:00:41):
one or two guys there, but it'spredominantly them could
viciously murder.
They didn't just murder like,they didn't just shoot somebody
or stab somebody a couple timeslike they.
Yeah, they went hog wild right,they were insane right, and
they didn't care that the ladywas like eight months pregnant,
you know.
So I think it's thoseculmination combination of, yeah

(01:01:04):
, all of those things.
He had a, he had a a way abouthim.
Um, and I could see I alwaysthink there was was this
interview that was done with afemale journalist.
I didn't watch the whole thingbecause it just it angered me,
but he would do that thing that,for whatever reason, works on a

(01:01:26):
lot of people, where it's abackhanded compliment yeah, or
it's a compliment followed bysomething negative, like he said
you'd be really pretty, you'revery pretty, but you'd be even
prettier if you lost a fewpounds.
You know it's that kind ofthing, and if you're even

(01:01:46):
remotely insecure about yourweight as a woman, you know that
can fuck with you.
And all you need is to do that alittle bit and to isolate and,
you know, add in some of thedrugs that they were doing.

Speaker 2 (01:02:02):
Yeah, and you know you're gonna have yeah this was
another thing they didn't reallytalk about too, but I wonder
what their relationship oraccessibility was to food,
because I know a lot of cultleaders will like starve their
members or limit their access tofood to practice like emotional

(01:02:28):
control over them.
And he talks about a lot how hewas so easily able to bribe
them with like candy and stuff,and he portrays that as like, oh
, they're childlike, they justwant candy and I'm like maybe
they're hungry.
Really bugged me that I thoughtwas also glossed over is how,

(01:02:53):
like you know, like these girlslike had to whatever, like have
sex with any male member of thefamily, whatever, yeah, at or
other women or other women andmen had to sleep with other men
sometimes at Manson's command,yeah, whatever.
But like my point is that theywere popping out babies and then

(01:03:14):
he would take their babies away.
That's another major form ofcontrol yeah, absolutely.
And the one who testified linda.
Uh, what is her?

Speaker 1 (01:03:25):
last name casabian casperian no it's, it's
k-a-s-a-b-I-A-N, I think, butanyway, she left her baby, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:03:38):
And then they were like how could you leave your
baby?
Yeah, like she had to leave herbaby to get away from there.
But yeah, that was another way.

Speaker 1 (01:03:47):
It happens a lot, even now.
You leave your family, youleave your kids.

Speaker 2 (01:03:51):
Yeah, that was another way to get to him that
he controlled them.
Yeah, uh is through theirchildren.

Speaker 1 (01:03:58):
Yeah, but we were supposed to talk about the
things we enjoyed.
We're going back to the.
We're going back to thecriticisms which is fine but
you're stuck in a grad schoolthere, Rachel.

Speaker 2 (01:04:16):
I mean, it was very gripping until like basically
the trial, the trial.
And like once they read out theguilty verdict, I was like all
right done.
And then they were like andthen we're going to do the
sentencing trial?
And I was like no yeah.
And then he just kept going,kept going, kept going.

(01:04:39):
I was like why isn't this overyet?

Speaker 1 (01:04:43):
Well, at least you stuck it through.
I left I don't know a littleover 100 pages.
I think.
I was like I'm done with thetrial, I don't need to hear more
.

Speaker 2 (01:04:52):
They killed that defense attorney.
I know they did that is insane.

Speaker 1 (01:04:57):
It is.
They were, yeah.
Oh, I saw a documentary orsomething.
Squeaky Frome was still at thatpoint in time and she was old.

Speaker 2 (01:05:09):
She tried to assassinate Gerald Ford right.

Speaker 1 (01:05:13):
Probably.
I think so, um, but my point isshe was still a devoted manson
fan when that documentary cameout.
And that documentary came outnot too many years ago, like in
the 2000s the three?

Speaker 2 (01:05:25):
uh, patricia, linda and um, stacy, is it st?
I don't know the three who gotconvicted.
Huh, sadie, sadie.
No, sadie was her.
Sadie was Susan.
Right, susan, that's her realname.
Sadie Glutz, susan Atkins Toomany fucking names three uh,

(01:05:55):
they all denounced him.

Speaker 1 (01:05:56):
All the ones who went to prison for him, like didn't
denounce yeah, but yeah, yeah,no, I just I just found it when
this was still his following.
I I just found it interestingthat even in the 2000s she was
still buying his shit tried tobreak him out of prison was
there anything else you liked I?
I don't know?

Speaker 2 (01:06:12):
Yeah, it was really like I said, it was pretty
gripping.
I don't know what else to sayabout it.
It was really interesting, butyeah, it just went on too long
yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:06:26):
I both loved and disliked how deep it went.
Yeah, how deep it went.
Yeah, you know, I liked itbecause, again, I didn't really
know that much about it.
Yeah, I thought I kneweverything, right.
Manson, young ladies, helter,skelter sharon tate, like you
know.

(01:06:46):
Yeah, no, it did um, but it wasso much more than that, uh, and
it went even, even beyond that,like even more killings that
they didn't get tried for.
And yeah, it was just theinsanity of it.
Like I, I knew that there wasinsanity in terms of the media,

(01:07:07):
of the trial and stuff, right,the x and whatever, but like
even before then, the insanityof it all you know the other
things.
Like I, I didn't know.
The depth of his depth soundslike a good thing, the um, his
full belief system and how hemade it make sense.

(01:07:30):
I didn't realize the beatlesconnection at all yeah, I knew,
I knew he had I knew he had.
I knew the brian wilson and Iknow um, mama cass from mamas
and the papas was a big fan ofof manson, but I didn't.
I didn't know that he like madea lot of his belief system out

(01:07:52):
of the Beatles music,particularly the White Album, it
just didn't.
And how he connected it to theBible, I didn't know the Bible
was any part of it.
You know, yeah, the Book ofRevelation and Chapter 9, which
I read and is terrifying.
It's a great horror.
The Book of Revelations is agreat horror story.

(01:08:14):
I forgot what I was saying.
Oh, oh, all the connections Iso, yeah, the, the detail I
loved there got to a point whereit stopped being uh fun and got
a little tedious.

Speaker 2 (01:08:28):
the thing that that that that made me like was like
finding out that, like he, hehad gone to Sharon Tate's house,
yeah, before, yeah, and likeseen her, yeah, that was insane.

Speaker 1 (01:08:43):
Yeah, and the idea that maybe they weren't the
targets at first.

Speaker 2 (01:08:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:08:51):
Yeah, and just the descriptions of it, like it's
kind of one thing to hear, like,oh, they were, they were
stabbed to death.
But when linda kasabian um goesinto detail, like how abigail
was running and kasabian yeah,uh, and you know just her

(01:09:12):
description and also thedescription susan atkins said,
you know that made it a lot morereal.
You know it was horrible and Iguess there are.
You know whether or not that'sa good thing to publish, you
know, just for the victims andvictims' families, I don't know.
But at the same time it makesit so much more impactful for

(01:09:33):
people who are not part of it,who would otherwise just like,
like you know, wave it off orwhatever.
Like how is that that terrible?
So they were stabbed.
A lot of people get stabbed,but right, when, when you hear
that she was the fulldescription, yeah, you know it's
, it's a lot.
I also learned new things.
They use the term rap a lot.

(01:09:54):
I'd never heard that outside ofthe context of the music.
I didn't realize it meantconversation.
I didn't realize it was slangof the 60s.

Speaker 2 (01:10:02):
Yeah, um, and also pigs, right, because we think of
pigs as police officers right,yeah, when they first put pigs,
I was yeah, that was likethey're not cops right, yeah,
but it turns out it comes fromthe song Piggies from the White
Album, which is it's a not verynice song about the wealthy.

Speaker 1 (01:10:22):
Yeah, yeah, so I learned new things.
I always like to learn newthings, so, yeah, that was
interesting.
I don't know, I don't haveanything really thoughtful, or
interesting to say.
Do you know?

(01:10:45):
I wonder what the Beatlesthought or said about like when
finding, if they found out thatAll of the Beatles gave
permission to use lyrics exceptfor George Harrison.
Yeah, so any song that GeorgeHarrison wrote the lyrics
couldn't be out, so he couldn'tprint the words from Piggies,

(01:11:07):
because George Harrison wrotethat one.
So they clearly knew, yeah, yeah, I'm sure they weren't thrilled
.
I don't think any of thecelebrities who met him, or
anybody who ever met him, waslike, yeah, I knew him, yeah,
you know.
They were very reluctant.

Speaker 2 (01:11:21):
Well, sure, yeah, it's just like you know that he
thinks that.
I mean, I know a lot of peoplethink, thought that there were
like hidden messages.

Speaker 1 (01:11:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:11:31):
Like the Beatles songs.

Speaker 1 (01:11:32):
Yeah, that was a common, but that's taking it to
like a whole other level.
Yeah, that was a common, takingit to like a whole that is
level.

Speaker 2 (01:11:40):
Yeah, I've never heard the white album.
Have you heard it?
I don't know if I've heard it.
I mean I've heard lots and lotsof beatles on yeah, I don't
know if I've listened to like awhole album, yeah exactly yeah
wow, that should be our homework.

Speaker 1 (01:11:52):
We should listen yeah , I don't have anything real
insightful to say about the book.
Uh, I think you said most of it.
Sorry, I talked too much,that's okay, but I mean, I'm
glad I read it, or the vastmajority of it.
I I will be honest and say thatI will not be reading the last
hundred or so pages, but I'mglad.

(01:12:12):
I'm glad that that we pickedthat.

Speaker 2 (01:12:16):
Yeah, um, despite its flaws yeah, I learned a lot of
stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:12:21):
Yeah, I was horrified and intrigued, and then I was
bored horrified yeah, I washorrified, intrigued and, at
some points, very bored yeahyeah, yeah, yeah, to the point
where we even you, even lookedup a nice segue to our next
thing.
It's your turn to pick the book.

(01:12:41):
So you Googled I know youGoogled the true crime thing,
but you were looking at booksthat didn't have that Like.
This happened.
Then this happened then thishappened.

Speaker 2 (01:12:54):
We were looking for next true crime crime book.
That's a little bit.
A little bit more soft, yeah.
So I picked one that is aboutdinosaur bone theft, called the
dinosaur artist obsession,betrayal and the quest for
earth's ultimate Trophy, byPaige Williams.

(01:13:16):
All right, yeah, I'm a kid andI like dinosaurs.
Adults can like dinosaurs, andwho doesn't love a good heist?

Speaker 1 (01:13:25):
Yeah, that'll fulfill one of our prompts.
Nice For our 52 books challenge.
We've got dinosaurs, we've gotheists.
I don't know the dinosaur oneworks, but the heist one you
gotta read a book about a heist.

Speaker 2 (01:13:39):
Yeah, is there a dinosaur prompt?
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:13:42):
I don't know.
There's probably not, probablynot Okay, so repeat the book
again.

Speaker 2 (01:13:47):
It's called.
Sorry, let me open my thingagain.
The Dinosaur Artist, ObsessionBetrayal and the Quest for
Earth's Ultimate Trophy by PaigeWilliams.

Speaker 1 (01:13:59):
Awesome.
Before we go, have we beenreading or watching anything
aside from this?
I mean, like, what did we dolast week before?
Our lives revolved aroundHelter Skelter.

Speaker 2 (01:14:08):
Right.
So I did read a little bit ofIncidents Around the house by
josh mallerman and I wasenjoying that, yeah, until I
realized I better stop readingthis and get back to helter
skelter I'm not gonna finish intime.
Um, I haven't watched too muchjust because at the end of the

(01:14:32):
day, I've just been tired yeahand passing out so yeah, it's.

Speaker 1 (01:14:36):
It's been hard for you.

Speaker 2 (01:14:37):
You've got a kiddo that had yes surgery yeah, yeah,
one of my kids had theirtonsils and kids are home from
break.

Speaker 1 (01:14:44):
Yeah, so yeah and yeah, she's, or well, I guess
she's not home from break, butshe's home because she's home
from surgery yeah, yeah, and notbeen feeling too hot, so being
her, her spicy, spicy, selfextra spicy.

Speaker 2 (01:14:57):
Yeah, exactly, so well I no life, only kids for
once, I have more things thanyou.

Speaker 1 (01:15:07):
I don't know if I mentioned on here I know I've
told you a couple of times but Idid a rewatch of a k drama
called marry my husband.
Yes, you did um mention.
I mentioned it to you.
Yeah, in case you don't know, Ilike it.
It's about a, a woman who hascancer and she's forced to go
home because she doesn't havethe money to pay for her

(01:15:29):
treatment.
And when she goes home, shefinds her best friend and
husband in bed plotting herdeath.
Ultimately, they kill her I'mnot giving anything away, that's
in the synopsis, uh, and shegoes back in time, basically,
and has to, uh, redistribute herfate yeah and um.

(01:15:49):
So it's about how she goes frombeing a a timid person to a
strong, independent woman, andthere may or may not be some
romance involved.
There's definitely a catinvolved, a cute little ginger.
I redistribute my faith to be afate to be rich right, and so I

(01:16:10):
I re-watched that one and Iread what did I read?
Let me find my Goodreads.
Did I even put it on Goodreads?
Can I mark Helter Skelter asread, even though I have 100
pages?

Speaker 2 (01:16:24):
to go.
Hell yeah, close enough.
Awesome, I think that counts,have I?

Speaker 1 (01:16:30):
not updated it.
Oh no, I didn't update it.
So it's basically I am notbeing very smart in my reading.
For some reason I decided thatI wanted to read one of Jane
Anne Krentz's books a year, uh,to finish up her trilogy.

(01:17:00):
So I read that one.
But then I was like, well, I'mkind of in the mood for some
jane and crintz.
So I went to her backlist andI'm now reading one about a nerd
and a uh woman from a theaterfamily.
Okay, and it's supposed to getinto some sort of um, uh,
suspense thriller type stuff,although I feel like I'm almost

(01:17:21):
halfway through and nothing'shappened.
They've had sex, that's aboutit, but he's an uber nerd who
lacks emotion, apparently, andshe's highly emotional.
I hear that, but I am not.
Yeah, I haven't.
I wanted to be pickier about myreading this year, but I

(01:17:42):
haven't been lately.
I haven't started off that way.

Speaker 2 (01:17:46):
Well With Others, and it's by Deanna Raybourne and I
was like, hey, we were justreading Deanna Raybourne.

Speaker 1 (01:18:00):
Is that the next one in the?

Speaker 2 (01:18:02):
Is it a?

Speaker 1 (01:18:02):
series I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:18:04):
Let me Can I answer that.
But I was like I didn't knowshe did murdery books too.

Speaker 1 (01:18:09):
Yeah, I think this is the second one in the one about
the older assassins.
Oh okay, what is that first onecalled it's right up there
Killers of a Certain Age.
Oh yeah, we can read that oneif you want, after we finish the
second one.

Speaker 2 (01:18:25):
I did finish the second, did you?
Veronica Speedwalk?
Yeah, I finished it.

Speaker 1 (01:18:29):
I thought it was funny I liked the.

Speaker 2 (01:18:30):
Did you read it?
I've read it before.
Yeah, I liked the part wherethey're in the grotto and she's
like waving the like dildosaround.

Speaker 1 (01:18:40):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh, that reminds me of the newbook she co-signs a loan for I
don't know sister orsister-in-law or something who
wants to have like a femalefriendly adult store, something

(01:19:01):
he wants to have like a femalefriendly, uh, adult store, and
as a thank you, thesister-in-law gives her a box
full of like bdsm type stuff,including really big dildos,
yeah, and so she.
You know, she didn't thinkanything of it, but then her um,
her stepbrother came in andfound it and like put the
clothes on and was like meant itto be a joke?
I mean, that's a gross joke,yeah, uh, but you know, so he's
like waving the stuff around infront of this guy that she's

(01:19:23):
trying to seduce.
Basically, it was hilarious.
Yeah, that was fun.
I forgot that, that.
I remember there was the grotto, but I forgot that that
happened.
When do we find out that thestoker's brother is gay?
Was that the first one, or didI give it away?

Speaker 2 (01:19:38):
I mean, it's not a big plot.
She he mentions that like thathe was in the club or whatever
and that he, you know, was partof like these, like orgies, that
that they talk about that likethere was like some same sex sex
going on.
She like talks to what's thedeuce stoker?

(01:19:58):
She's like.
She's like do you know how gaysex works?
And he's like please stoptalking about guys?

Speaker 1 (01:20:06):
yeah, because I, I know, I know it's confirmed, in
a wink wink kind of way, but Iforget what book that's in.
Okay, but I don't think you'resurprised by that.
No, no, um, spoiler alert,y'all.
It's not a big plot point, sodon't worry about it.
Okay, well, I'll, I'll startreading it.

Speaker 2 (01:20:25):
You did, I am interested in reading more
veronica speedwell books.
But yeah, I was like, I waslike I didn't know she did
murder, yeah we'll try.

Speaker 1 (01:20:33):
So we'll try killers ofudge next.
I haven't read that one.
Are you doing the VeronicaSpeedwell on audio or just
reading?

Speaker 2 (01:20:41):
I mostly did it on audio.

Speaker 1 (01:20:45):
Okay, Are they good?
That's my main question.
I was going to ask if they'regood.

Speaker 2 (01:20:49):
Yeah, it's good.
I would say it's good because Ican't remember anything
standing out being likeobnoxious.
Okay.
So, I would say yes, okay.

Speaker 1 (01:21:01):
Because then I can listen to it on my way to work.
Okay, because I need new stuffto listen to.
All right, well, I guess wedon't have anything else to say.
It's a lot longer episode thanI thought, although I think I'm
going to cut out probably chunksof this.
Okay, so we said the book twice.
It's not on the top of my headright now.

(01:21:22):
I will put it in thedescription and we will, of
course, mention it again in thenext several episodes.

Speaker 2 (01:21:31):
Pull it up real quick one more time, it will be the
Dinosaur.

Speaker 1 (01:21:35):
Artist by Paige Williams.
The Dinosaur Artist by PaigeWilliams.
The Dinosaur Artist by PaigeWilliams.
So that'll be episode 36.

Speaker 2 (01:21:45):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (01:21:46):
Yeah, sure, that's what we're going with.
I know it's an even number,that's all I know Sounds good to
me so the four episodes fromnow.
That will.
That will be our, our next book.
Yeah, I will, of course, putthe information in the
description box.
Um, have you checked emails andstuff lately?

(01:22:08):
Um, no, okay.
Well, if, if, by some smallchance, anyone out there has
emailed us or sent us anything,we will check it.

Speaker 2 (01:22:20):
I will get back to you soon.

Speaker 1 (01:22:22):
Yes, she will look at it.
I'll remind her until she doesand hopefully we'll get back to
you soon.
If it's something we can talkabout on the air, we'll on the
air on the episode, then we'll.
We'll do that and on our ownlittle air.
If nobody, if nobody has,please do that On our own little
air.
If nobody has, please do so.
You know, we would like to hearanything, suggestions, opinions

(01:22:45):
.
Please be nice.
We're fragile.
No, we're not.
We're not really.
Rachel has a pretty thick skinand I did a little journalism so
I have a pretty thick skin andI did a little journalism so I
had a.

Speaker 2 (01:22:59):
I have a fairly strong, but we would appreciate
if you weren't mean to us.

Speaker 1 (01:23:04):
Let's let's have kindness out there, and so we'd
like to hear from you Instagram,facebook, gmail email, and
that's it Right.
Facebook email, and that's itright.
You can also do our individualones.
All of that will be in thedescription box, and I don't

(01:23:28):
know what else we want to say.
Stay safe out there.
Let's work towards a betterfuture.

Speaker 2 (01:23:34):
Sorry to trust a 5'2 white man wearing buckskin and
work towards a better future.
Do not trust a 5'2 white manwearing buckskin.

Speaker 1 (01:23:42):
And our thoughts and good vibes go out to those
people who have lost things inthe fire.

Speaker 2 (01:23:50):
Yes, absolutely Very horrific.

Speaker 1 (01:23:52):
And I guess that's it .
We will talk to you next time.
Bye.