The White Widow: Spinning a Venomous Web of Deception and Death

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In this week's episode, Kiki gives us the story of the White Widow and Rachel brings us the disappearance of Gyselle Lujan. And we talk about what we've been reading and watching, including that Bridgerton carriage scene.

Our next book is "The Witch of New York: The Trials of Polly Bodine and the Cursed Birth of Tabloid Justice" by Alex Hortis, which we will discuss in episode 20.

Sources: 

Samantha Lewthwaite (White Widow)
World's Most Wanted - Samantha Lewthwaite: The White Widow (episode 3)
Wikipedia - Samantha Lewthwaite 

Gyselle Lujan
Facebook - Missing Girls and Young Women from New Mexico
Vail Daily - "Investigation Underway for Missing Gypsum Teen by Nate Peterson 

If you have information please call Eagle County Sheriff's Office (970) 328 - 8500

Socials:

Instagram: Details Are Sketchy - @details.are.sketchy
Facebook: Details Are Sketchy - @details.are.sketchy.2023
Instagram: Kiki - @kikileona84
Instagram: Rachel - @eeniemanimeenienailz
Email: [e-mail]

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
So I'm Kiki and I'm Rachel, and this is.
Details Are Sketchy A truecrime podcast, and we're on
episode 17.

Speaker 2 (00:10):
I can talk again.

Speaker 1 (00:13):
Rachel can talk again .
She's not all stuffy.

Speaker 2 (00:15):
Of course, now it's your episode, that's all right.
When it's my episode again,I'll probably sound like shit.

Speaker 1 (00:23):
So Rachel's going to give us the missing person, then
I'm going to do the case andthen we'll chat a little bit.
I'll remind you what our newbook is for episode 20, and then
we'll be done.

Speaker 2 (00:37):
You need to remind me what our new book is for
episode 22.

Speaker 1 (00:40):
Okay, I'll remind you too.

Speaker 2 (00:41):
Rachel.
So, yes, is it missing persontime?
It is missing person time,which I totally have.
I just acquired I know I waswatching you A missing person.
I mean, acquire a missingperson?
Okay, don't get too hasty.
All right, I found somebody.
Sometimes, you know, like, I'mlooking on the missing persons

(01:04):
list and there's lots of missingpersons that I would like to
talk about, but there's not verymuch information.
Yeah, to go on.
Unfortunately, sometimesthere's not even a photo, so
it's difficult to you know.
Yeah, so here we go.
The missing person I selecteduh, her name is Giselle Lujan

(01:29):
and, uh, she is a 15 year old.
She was last seen the eveningof Saturday, may 18th.
Uh, she was seen leaving afriend's house on Riverview road
, gypsum, who claims she leftwalking and never, she was never
heard from again.
This is weirdly written.

(01:50):
They claimed that she leftwalking and was never heard from
again.
Also, it doesn't say Gypsum,riverview Road, where, oh, I
guess Gypsum, gypsum, where Isthat?
In Colorado, I don't know.
Oh, I think it is.
Yes, yes, Okay, all right, Ifound this information here.

(02:13):
Now it says Gypsum, eagleCounty, colorado.

Speaker 1 (02:16):
There you go.

Speaker 2 (02:17):
Now we know she went missing from Gypsum, eagle
County, colorado, but she isbelieved to possibly be in
Artesia or Las Cruces, newMexico.
So I think there's more laterabout why they believe she could
be there, so I guess we'll gointo that.

(02:38):
They don't give a physicaldescription of her, but here is
a picture.
It looks like she is fairlypale-skinned, she's got brown
eyes, dark brown hair, it lookslong and straight and she's just
got a happy-looking face.

(02:58):
She looks like a happy kid.

Speaker 1 (03:02):
Did you say what year she went missing?
This year, this year, so she'sstill probably 15 or 16.

Speaker 2 (03:08):
Okay, just a kiddo yeah, she's just a kiddo, so all
right, so more later than yes,yes, there's like an article I
found about her, so okay, we'llgo into that okay, sounds good.

Speaker 1 (03:24):
All right, so my case is on samantha luthwaite, aka
the white widow.
I actually don't know how topronounce her last name, so I
just call her samanthathroughout the thing.
Just a warning in case anybodyneeds it.
This is a lot of bombing and,uh, terrorist I should have have
done warnings on mine.

Speaker 2 (03:46):
I always think about that after I'm like I should
have done some trigger warnings.

Speaker 1 (03:52):
I don't know if warnings are really all that
necessary.
I have to do it for classes,yeah.

Speaker 2 (03:59):
It's probably a good idea.
I mean, people know it's truecrime, but some people don't
want to listen to certain kindsof content, yeah, and so I will
try and be better about that,okay in the future.

Speaker 1 (04:11):
Yeah, I should be better.
I didn't really write anythingdown.
I'm sure there are other uhwarnings I should be giving, but
it was late at night and Ididn't do it, because I'm a
procrastinator and do myhomework last minute.

Speaker 2 (04:25):
Rubbing off on you.

Speaker 1 (04:26):
I've always been that way.
If I start something early,it's always the worst thing.
I always get in school on apaper or something.
If I start the paper early, I'dget a worse grade than if I did
it closer to the time.

Speaker 2 (04:40):
You work better under that pressure than mine.
Yeah Me too.
Maybe Katie has ADHD too.
I don't know of the time.
You work better, like underlike that pressure.
Yeah mine, yeah me too.
Maybe katie has adhd too Idon't know, I don't think so
yeah, I don't think so either,but I mean, there's more to it
than that.

Speaker 1 (04:56):
But right, that's one of the things, yeah okay, so
we're talking about the WhiteWidow.
So before we get to her, though,we're going to start with the
7-7 bombings in London.
So on Thursday, july 7th 2005,in London, england, right during

(05:18):
morning rush hour, three bombswere detonated on the London
Underground trains within 50seconds of each other.
The first bomb exploded on theCircle Line train number 204,
which was traveling eastbound.
The second on the Circle Linetrain number 216, traveling

(05:38):
westbound, and then the third,which will have the highest body
count, was on the Piccadillyline, number 311, traveling
southbound from King's Cross.
An hour later there was afourth bomb that exploded on the
top of a double-decker bus atTavistock Square.

(05:58):
Thankfully, it happened nearthe headquarters of the British
Medical Association, so therewere a number of medical staff
who were able to renderimmediate emergency assistance.
It should be noted that thebuses were being used as
alternative transport due to thetrain bombings, so I guess we
could assume that the buses wereprobably more crowded than

(06:19):
usual and they don't say it, butsince it was an hour later, I
would say that whoever plantedit probably would have guessed
that.
So, in all, 52 people werekilled Seven on the eastbound,
six on the westbound, 26 atKing's Cross and 13 at Tavistock
Square, while one each was fromAfghanistan, france, ghana,

(06:49):
grenada, india, iran, israel,italy, kenya, mauritius I can
never pronounce that oneM-A-U-R-I-T-I-U-S.
New Zealand, nigeria, romania,sri Lanka and Turkey.
Three were Polish, one was aVietnamese-born Australian and
one held dualAmerican-Vietnamese citizenship.

(07:09):
And I didn't mention.
I just say the bombs exploded,but they were suicide bombers.
So Jermaine Maurice Lindsay,also known as Abdullah Shahid
Jamal, was the suicide bomber ofthe Piccadilly Line.
That was the King's Cross one.
He converted to Islam around2001 after his mother had

(07:29):
encouraged him to do so.
He would have been like 16 or17 at the time.
He married his first wife in atraditional Islamic religious
ceremony, which is not legallybinding in the UK, in October of
2002.
Which is not legally binding inthe UK in October of 2002.
He divorced her eight dayslater because she objected to
his taking a second wife.

(07:50):
He then married SamanthaLithwaite that same month.
They had two children together,one born just a few months
after the bombing.
Okay, so in case I need to makeconnections, saman I'm talking
about samantha mainly she'smarried to one of the suicide

(08:12):
bombers that will becomeimportant if I convert to islam,
how many wives can I have?

Speaker 2 (08:18):
none you can have one husband, boo no, I don't think
that I can manage a second one,but I I was just that thought
just occurred to me.
I'm like hmm, how many wivescan I have?

(08:38):
Or how many wives could a woman?

Speaker 1 (08:40):
have right.
None objection, I know.
Okay.
So some background on samantha.
So she was born in northernireland in 1983.
Was it 83 or 80?
It was either 83 or 85.
She's either a year youngerthan me or a year, uh, older, I
can't remember, but I typed 1983, so that's the one we'll go

(09:03):
with.
Her father was a british armysoldier and met her mother while
stationed in northern ireland.
Now that bit is possibly a bitimportant.
Um, okay, because at that timenorthern ireland was still in
the midst of what is known asthe troubles, uh, which is to

(09:23):
say she was born into a placethat was experiencing political,
nationalistic, religiousterrorism.
So you know, we'll make thatconnection.
Later they moved to Alsbury,england, when she was 11.
Her parents divorced in 1994,and she was apparently pretty
devastated by the breakup andsought comfort from her muslim

(09:47):
neighbors who she believed had astronger family network, and
she then converted to islam atage 17.
So, um, I should say twodifferent sources.
One says she wasn't that brokenup about it, she just hung out
with her muslim best friend alot, and then the other one said
she was devastated.
Yeah, so I don't know.
They seem to put stock in thatas far as, like her, converting

(10:11):
to islam or whatever.
Jermaine and samantha met at astop the war march, which is
also significant because theresentment of the british and
american invasion of iraq wasone of the British and American
invasion of Iraq was one of thedefining factors for the group
to conduct the 7-7 bombings.
So she obviously had someconnection with the sentiment of

(10:35):
why her husband and his groupmembers would carry out those
attacks.

Speaker 2 (10:39):
I mean I fully agree about the war in Iraq, but I
just don't, I really.
I mean I fully agree about thewar in Iraq, but I just don't, I
really I don't understand howthat's the place that you go
like this is going to do it.

Speaker 1 (10:52):
I know.
That's why you're not aterrorist.
Okay, so Samantha denied hisinvolvement until authorities
produced forensic evidence toconfirm his identity.
She later said that she wasjust a wife and she had no idea,

(11:30):
etc.
Etc.
Right, the detective gives theexample of how other family
members of other bombers actedversus her.
So one of the examples theygave is that the family of the
bomber, hasib Hussein, were onthe phone with police like right
away, saying that he had gonedown to London on a day trip.

(11:52):
They hadn't heard from him andthey were worried about him,
right, right, whereas Samantha,who was seven months pregnant at
the time, apparently couldn'tgive a fuck and waited days to
contact anyone about her missinghusband, right, wow, so that's
a bit suspect you gotta fake ita little bit better, yep I mean

(12:13):
obviously she did do a prettygood job, because she's still
out there, so but I guess, yeah,all right, I'm not gonna,
that's okay, that's your stuff.
That's all right.
She is suspected in havingsomething to do with the
bombings.
However, there's not enoughevidence to have arrested her
then or even now.
There's a lot of like gutcertainty among people, among

(12:39):
the individuals involved ininvestigating the case and
investigating her, but, you know, as far as actual evidence goes
, there's not any.
So in the days after that, shedid an exclusive interview with
a British paper which she hadbeen paid for.
I think it's more of a tabloid,I think it was like the Sun or

(13:01):
something like that, but she waspaid something like £,000
pounds for this interview.
Oh wow.
And the fact that she did thatinterview rightly disgusted a
lot of people, since she mademoney off the deaths of 52
people.
Right after that interview.
She seems to drop off the radaruntil 2011.

(13:22):
During that time, she gavebirth to a third child in 2009.
So in the time she was missing,she had another baby.
No father is listed, but somereports say Habib Salih Ghan,
aka Abu Usama al-Pakistani, aPakistani member of the Somali

(13:44):
militant paramilitary groupal-Shabab.
Militant paramilitary is kindof redundant, but y'all know
what I mean.
Anyway, he serves as thegroup's chief of security and
training operations.
That will become importantlater.
So she resurfaces in mumbasa,kenya, in december of 2011.

(14:07):
Possibly uh, they think shewent there instead of other
jihadist states like syria or umiraq at the time because
english is spoken in kenya andalso because there's no visa to
enter, at least for Britishcitizens.

(14:27):
Also, while Kenya has a hugetourist-based economy that
coexists within a large Muslimpopulation, within that
population are pockets ofIslamic militancy that dates
back all the way to the 1990s,so there have been several
relatively big terrorist attacks.

(14:48):
One was US Embassy in the 90s,I think.
There was a hotel early tomid-2000s, okay, so anyway,
there were reports that a groupwas planning an attack or
attacks on tourists and hotelsduring the high season of
Christmas that's apparentlytheir high tourist time.

(15:12):
The police knew where this groupwas staying, so they went to
the residence.
The house was described asbeing sparse, but they did find
materials used to makeexplosives.
Described as being sparse, butthey did find materials used to
make explosives.
So the papers found in thehouse indicated that it belonged
to Jermaine Grant, also knownas Ali Mohamed Ibrahim.

(15:35):
They charged him withpossession of bomb-making
materials and preparing tocommit a felony.
In his confession, heidentified Samantha as being the
leader of the cell, and he alsosaid she was the one financing
the group or was somehowmanaging to get financing
Interesting.
Yeah, so it's reported thatjust before Grant was arrested

(15:58):
he had texted a phone registeredto Samantha that said something
along the lines of quote thelions are coming, which I mean.
Obviously that's a warning.
The kenyan police find otherplaces associated with the
terrorist cell, including ahouse where samantha was
reported to be staying.
The police knocked on the doorand a woman wearing a veil

(16:21):
answered.
They asked for her id, whichshe readily gave them, and the
id, which I think was a passport, said that the woman who
answered the door was nataliewebb from south africa, and the
id was so well done that itseemed very legitimate, right,
and so the police didn't haveany reason to suspect her as

(16:45):
being Samantha.
Yeah, so they left.
However, I don't know if it waslike same day or days later,
but at some point the policereceived word that Natalie Webb
was a fake name, right, and sothey sent another team back to
the house, but by that point shewas gone.
And so they sent another teamback to the house, but by that
point she was gone.

(17:05):
When they searched the housethey found a UK birth
certificate with the nameSamantha Luthwaite.
They also found documents thatgave a location of another house
in I'm going to mispronouncethis, but Sanzu, which is north
of Mombasa, and from thedescription I get the idea that
it's a pretty upscale touristyplace that's located by the

(17:29):
beach, and in that house theyfound stacks of cash, ammunition
, rifles and fake passports.
So they were pretty much at thatpoint figured that they were
going to attack hotels, probablyright in that area, because

(17:50):
that's where most of thetourists were staying.
So nobody knows where she wentin that time, but she is back in
Mombasa in June of 2012.
So about six months later therewas a Euro 2012 football match
between England and Italyhappening, so the bars and

(18:10):
places like that were full offans who were drinking and
watching the game.
That includes the Jericho Bar,which also catered to civil
servants, police and people whoworked in the government.
At some point in the evening, awhite woman in a hijab walked
in, which was odd becauseJericho Bar was in what was

(18:35):
described as a local area, sonot some place where white
people tend to go.
So she stuck out.

Speaker 2 (18:44):
It's a bar right and Muslims don't usually drink, so
that would stand out to me.

Speaker 1 (18:49):
Yeah, although they may not have been thinking that,
and while they don't, I'vediscovered that, depending on
what country you're in, it canbe pretty loosey-goosey.

Speaker 2 (19:00):
That's true.
There's definitely differentpeople interpreting stuff.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:05):
So, soon after she entered, there was an explosion.
Three people were killed and 25injured.
Samantha was named as a suspectin that attack the following
month, and that is the lastconcrete identification of her
anywhere yeah, of her anywhereyeah, the kenyan police, in
their search to figure out whodid this bombing, found a laptop

(19:29):
that belonged to samantha, onwhich they found some things
that show kind of what acontradiction she is, which I
think anytime anybody ever hearsabout an islamist terrorist
well any kind of religiousextremists well, yeah, but I
mean specifically in this case,islamist terrorists.

(19:52):
You, they tend to report that.
You know, while they're purportto be incredibly religious,
they have like porn andanti-western and they have a
bunch of western stuff, you know.
So, anyway, I mean people arecontradiction, I guess it
doesn't really matter.
Anti-western and they have abunch of Western stuff, you know
.
So, anyway, I mean people are acontradiction, I guess it
doesn't really matter.

Speaker 2 (20:12):
So anyway, it's interesting to note how people
like religious extremists kindof justify things.
I guess any kind of extremismyeah.

Speaker 1 (20:25):
So I guess any kind of extremism, yeah.
But so on the one hand, youhave this young mother who
listens to Beyonce and on theother hand, you have a jihadist,
which I think is what makespeople so interested in her
Right, besides the fact that sheis a woman who has killed
hundreds of people or has insome way been attached to

(20:50):
killing hundreds of people.
They also found a journal witha poem extolling the virtues of
osama bin laden and alsoimportantly, they found photos
with her and abdul wahid, hernew husband, who was was at
first a Kenyan police officer,but then he defected to join
al-Shabaab.
I mentioned al-Shabaab before,in case you don't know.

(21:12):
It's a Sunni Islamic terroristgroup that pledged allegiance to
al-Qaeda in 2012.
The group specifically works tooverthrow the Somali federal
government, expel foreign forcesfrom Somalia and establish a
fundamentalist Islamic state.
They've attacked a handful oftimes in Kenya, probably because

(21:36):
Kenya's military has beendeployed in Somalia on various
occasions.

Speaker 2 (21:41):
You know, what strikes me as as quite
interesting which I'm sure otherpeople is that Islamic
extremism, and any type ofreligious extremism really that
I can think of, is marked byquite heavy misogyny, and it's

(22:02):
interesting that a woman couldbe, you know, like, named as a
leader and be so central, yeah,in all of that yeah, although
they don't admit to it right atall.
Also, in that computer I didn'twrite it down, but you have to
have you all of these men whobelieve these things like taking

(22:25):
her orders and stuff like that.

Speaker 1 (22:27):
Well, yeah, Although it probably comes from higher
ups to say you know, follow her.

Speaker 2 (22:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (22:35):
And they also seem to be the ones that are in herself
, seem to be people who are usedto women being, if not equal
then closer to it.
Like these are people who arenot specifically from this group
.
Necessarily they defected intothat group, okay, yeah, that

(22:56):
makes sense but also in herjournal and on the computer that
they found there was a lot ofmention from her in her own hand
about how her children want togrow up to be fighters for these
kind of groups, and that sortof thing, which is exactly the
role that a woman is supposed toplay in these groups, is

(23:18):
supposed to get her children togrow up and, you know, kill
themselves for the cause.

Speaker 2 (23:25):
She must be so proud.

Speaker 1 (23:29):
She certainly sounded that way.
Samantha is a key for anoperative for the Al-Shabaab
group, even though they don'ttend to advertise that.
I'll mention more of that later.
That, um, I'll mention more ofthat later.

(23:51):
So in september 2013, we have,or at the west gate shopping
mall in nairobi, kenya, you havefour I'm gonna mess this up uh
ingamasi, uh or suicide gunman,who approached the mall and
entered from two directions.
Apparently, this is a typicalal-Shabaab attack, so one group

(24:11):
or team came in through theupper floor and then the other
came in the main entrance.
One team threw grenades andthen both opened fire, working
their way through the mall,killing people they found along
the way.
Some reports said that they onlykilled people who were not
Muslim and they would ask thepeople certain questions that

(24:35):
they believed only Muslims wouldknow, Like to recite a certain
prayer or, I think, the name ofthe mother of Muhammad I think
was one of the questions orsomething like that, but that
wasn't reported in the mainsource of information I got, but
it was reported in othersources.

(24:55):
Anyway, in the end, 71 peopledied and about another 200 were
injured.
Al-shabaab claimed the attackas one of theirs, and
intelligence reports claim thata british woman and two or three
american citizens may have beeninvolved in the attack.
There's also question about ifwas there four or six men.

(25:18):
Um like, there's still a lot ofmystery surrounding the attack.
So some think that that Britishwoman would be Samantha and
others don't think so.
Al-shabaab has denied herinvolvement, claiming that they
don't send women out to do suchthings, as they have plenty of

(25:39):
willing young men to die for thecause, men to die for the cause
.
So in other words, they don'twant to admit that a woman would
be in any way involved insomething that's supposed to be
manly right.

Speaker 2 (25:55):
Are there other, like british defectors, women
involved in that group that areknown, or just her.

Speaker 1 (26:04):
I don't know about that group, but I mean there
there have certainly over timebeen white women when I was
american, I can't remember hername, but yeah, but no, I don't
think that high up and I don'tthink that involved.

Speaker 2 (26:16):
Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

Speaker 1 (26:18):
Yeah.
So regardless of the prestigeof the quote white widow, which
significantly increased afterthe mall attack, so clearly the
people who are invested in herbeing a jihadist certainly think
she was involved.
Anyway, it significantlyincreased after the mall attack

(26:38):
and to add to that, she's stillat large, she still hasn't been
caught and everyone in the worldpretty much is looking for her
Interpol, cia, mi5, mi6, etc.
There's lots of warrants forher arrest.
I think Interpol issued was itInterpol?
I think it was Interpol issueda red notice warrant.

(27:00):
So it's a big deal.
People are really really wanther bad and she is clearly in
hiding and clearly has helpbecause otherwise she wouldn't
have been able to let.
What am I trying to say?
She wouldn't have been able tohide as well as she has for as

(27:20):
long as she has.
I mean, it's been over 12.
It's been 12 years since thatattack, almost, yeah, okay, so
kenya and somali the somalisomalia share a very long border
and as soon as you cross theborder, at least in some areas,
you're going to be in al-Shabaabterritory.

(27:40):
So al-Shabaab has managed totake over certain parts of
Somalia and govern them, inwhich the federal government
can't get into without heavycasualties.
So if she had help, she wouldhave been picked up in one of
those areas, taken to a safearea and then a safe house
within that area, and she haslikely been moved around

(28:03):
constantly since then.
So I got most of this from ashow called the World's Most
Wanted, and in the episodetowards the end they introduced
one of my new favorite women ofall time, zakiya Hussain.
So she's from the UK but is nowdeputy chief of Somali police,

(28:23):
which is awesome.
She survived two assassinationattempts and there remains a
high price on her head.
This was done like probablyfive, six years ago, so I don't
know if she's still alive.
I didn't look her up, but Ihope so.
Anyway, among other things likecombating Al Shabab, she's also
looking for Samantha, or atleast that's what I got from the

(28:44):
show.
But I just think she's such abadass.

Speaker 2 (28:46):
Yeah, she sounds like an absolute badass.

Speaker 1 (28:48):
I can't really describe it on the podcast, but
you should watch the episode.
I'll put what episode it is inthe show notes.
But I mean, she's just she likedoesn't take any shit, and I
love women like that.
Okay, apparently the somalipolice or intelligence folks, or
both, uh, do know where she isin somalia.

(29:08):
Like they've had eyes on her,they keep tabs on her movements
but they can't really arrest herbecause she is always in
al-Shabaab territory.
So she's basically out of reachfor everybody.
And there's another reason theymight find it difficult to get
her, at least according to aformer UN investigator named

(29:28):
Matthew Bryden.
Reason is that people inal-shabaab controlled areas
won't likely denounce samanthaor give information on her
whereabouts, even if theydisagree with al-shabaab.
They're not a part of it.
They don't want any part of itbecause it's very risky, because
that group routinely executespeople for spying even if they

(29:53):
aren't actually spying just tokeep the fear.
They're a really brutal, brutalgroup.
Um, also, apparently there'sbeen questions about why not
using drone attacks, like theunited states has done to
several militants, toassassinate her.
And that is because she is abritish citizen and it's against

(30:15):
uk law to do that kind ofassassination.
British law focuses on gettingthe person, not killing the
person, whereas the us kind ofdoesn't seem to give a shit I
mean, in general, I would agreewith that, but I it just.

Speaker 2 (30:31):
it seems like I don't know, with all this shit, shit
going on in palestine and stuff,it seems like I don't know,
with all this shit going on inPalestine and stuff, it's like
let's not kill this womanbecause she's British and white,
but you know, like all of these, like brown kids, like you know
, fuck their lives yeah.

Speaker 1 (30:54):
But I think that's a blanket International law, but I
think that's a blanketInternational law.
But I think that's just blanketfor British.
They won't go after any.
Anyone with drones, yeah,regardless of whether or not
they're a British citizen.
It just helps that she's aBritish citizen.

Speaker 2 (31:10):
And I'm sure it helps that she's white.
No, I'm just saying about justjust how we have these, like you
know, international doublestandards, Of course.

Speaker 1 (31:20):
Thank you.
Capitalism yeah Well, it's true.
I mean racism really didn'tstart popping up until the start
of capitalism.

Speaker 2 (31:32):
White supremacy is a mechanism of capitalism or so
vice versa.
But there's a.
I've read some papers I don'tknow if I still have access to
them, I'll have to look it upabout how white supremacy is

(31:52):
like an intrinsic feature ofcapitalism yeah, it is.

Speaker 1 (31:57):
Yeah, I would agree with that assessment.
Basically, what all this comesdown to is that they know where
she is, more or less, but theycan't get to her without causing
a lot of civilian casualtiesyeah so basically monitoring her
is about the best that theseintelligence and justice

(32:18):
communities can do.
She may be free, as they said onthe show, but she also isn't
really free, so she can't movefreely.
She can't leave any al-shabaabterritory.
Yeah, um, so she's basicallybeen stuck in somalia in
al-shabaab territory for over adecade and pretty much everyone

(32:38):
in the episode agreed that sheisn't going to survive in
Somalia.
They didn't expand on that.
One person said these groupshave expiration dates, and I
think that person meant that itdoesn't matter how high up you
are, if they get tired of you,then they'll get rid of you, and

(33:00):
so she seems to have.
Like there isn't anyinformation that she's done
anything of any significancesince then, lately, and she's
she's not in the news anymore,right, really, you know.
And she's not in the newsanymore, right, really, you know
.
So they might get tired ofprotecting her yeah.
Yeah, might be more trouble thanit's worth.

(33:21):
On the Wikipedia page it saidthat her uncle thinks that she's
been killed, but nobody elseseems to think so.
Yeah, at least in theintelligence communities.
So I looked it up, even thoughthat episode was from years ago.
She's, yeah, she still hasn'tbeen caught yeah so should have

(33:43):
done this last week along withthe kate benders yeah, the kate
benders, kate bender and herfamily, I should say.
So that was a super short one.

Speaker 2 (33:54):
I thought it was going to be longer yeah but it
wasn't it's really interestingthough yeah, it is although it
just occurred to me that like,maybe, like she has been
involved with stuff like behindthe scenes you know that she
won't necessarily be creditedwith, true, but I mean because

(34:15):
there's got to be some kind oflike.
If she is still alive there,she's got to be of some kind of
use, you would think yeah, well,I mean.

Speaker 1 (34:24):
so the foreign jihadists.
Their big use is because theycan get more foreign jihadists
on board, so she may be usefulstill in that way.
Right, but when was the lastal-Shabaab attack?
I don't even hear about themanymore.

Speaker 2 (34:44):
We don't even hear about al-Qaeda.

Speaker 1 (34:46):
No Hell, we haven't even heard about ISIS in a
couple of years.
Yeah, there's got to besomething, or maybe she is dead,
who knows?
I mean Impossible, impossible.
Yeah, you got your missingperson stuff.
Oh yeah, or do you want to talkmore about it?
I don't think there's reallymore to talk about.

Speaker 2 (35:03):
No, I forgot, though, that I was doing more stuff on
my missing person.
Okay, so this is from anarticle.
Yes, it is is from an article.
Yes, it is indeed from thisyear, may 21st, 2024.
And it says the Eagle CountySheriff's Office is actively

(35:24):
investigating the disappearanceof a 15-year-old girl who was
last seen on the evening ofSaturday, may 18th in Gypsum.
Lorena Uribe, mother of GiselleLujan, said the family has been
working with local authoritiesand authorities in New Mexico
where the girl's father lives,so that's why they believe that
she is in New Mexico.

(35:46):
She left her cell phone behind,which is very strange because
she lived off of it, uribe said,who said she became aware her
daughter was missing Sundaymorning when she wasn't in her
room.
A volunteer community searchwas organized on Monday evening,
starting in Eagle River StatePark in Gypsum to search for the
girl.
The Eagle County Sheriff'sOffice declined to provide any

(36:09):
additional information on itsinvestigation.
On its investigation, uribesaid the Artesia Police
Department in New Mexicosearched the residence of
Lujan's father on Sunday nightbut found no signs of Lujan or
any evidence that the teen hadcontacted her father.
Those with information aboutthe missing girl are advised to
reach out to the Eagle CountySheriff's Office and hang on,

(36:31):
because I think that I had anumber or a couple of numbers
that I can give out in arelation.
So I have the Eagle CountySheriff's Office and they have
her mother's number, but I'm notgoing to give that out.

Speaker 1 (36:51):
No.

Speaker 2 (36:52):
I'm just going to give out the sheriff's office,
so if you already know hermother personally, then you
probably already have the numberand you can give her a call,
like the odds of that someonewho knows her mom is listening,
but maybe who knows, who knows?
Okay, okay, so the Eagle CountySheriff's Office number is

(37:14):
970-328-8500.
So if anybody has heard of orseen Giselle, yeah, give them a
call and let them know.
Hopefully she will be foundsafe and sound.
So she's been missing only fivedays, yeah, so they don't think

(37:43):
she ran away or they're notreally saying she was last seen
leaving a friend's house.
Okay, she left walking and shewas never heard from again, and
so I guess she left the friend'shouse at night, and then it was
expected that she had gone home, but her mother found that she
hadn't come home in the morning.
Okay, so yeah, hopefullyeverything's okay.

(38:05):
Yeah, hope so.

Speaker 1 (38:07):
What's your source?

Speaker 2 (38:09):
Yes, so my sources are Missing Girls and Young
Women of New Mexico andVailDailycom.
Okay, so we will.

Speaker 1 (38:27):
We'll put those in the show notes, we'll make some
citations and put them in theshow notes, my favorite thing,
yes.
You do like proper citations,but I don't put them in the show
notes.

Speaker 2 (38:39):
My favorite thing.

Speaker 1 (38:39):
Yes, you do like proper citations, but I don't
put them in the show notes.
Oh yeah, so you really don'thave to go through all that
trouble.

Speaker 2 (38:44):
What do you put in there then?
I never read the show notes.

Speaker 1 (38:46):
I put in the.
If there's a title, I put inthe title.
If there's an author, I put inthe author and I put in the like
.
If it's an author, I put in theauthor and I put in the like if
it's abc news or I put it onabc or whatever.
But I don't like, okay, do toomuch.
Sometimes I do links sometimesI don't because it's on my phone
and I know I can get it thenonto my computer and whatever.

Speaker 2 (39:04):
Well, I just stopped doing an alphabetical order and
I felt kind of lazy for notdoing it just just give me the
title the author and the placeyou got it from yeah.

Speaker 1 (39:16):
Okay, I think people know how to Google.

Speaker 2 (39:21):
People can't enjoy my beautiful citations.

Speaker 1 (39:23):
I've never put them in, so they never have.
Okay, okay.
So my source primarily wasWorld's Most Wanted, the
Samantha Luthway episode.
I forget which episode numberit is, and Wikipedia, because it
was midnight last night.

Speaker 2 (39:43):
Okay, so Sometimes Wikipedia's got good stuff.

Speaker 1 (39:48):
Yeah, they're not always terrible.
No, they're not always terrible.

Speaker 2 (39:51):
And it had a lot of citations and I like them
sometimes because, especiallythese days, everything is so
monetized, yeah, and Wikipediais not, so I kind of feel like
sometimes that it can give youknow like, yeah, like a
non-capitalist view, like, yeah,like a non-capitalist.

Speaker 1 (40:16):
I forget.
Do I normally do the bookbefore we start talking or after
?

Speaker 2 (40:23):
You know, usually I don't know, sometimes we don't
forget and we don't mention ituntil the very end.
But since we're thinking aboutit, right, now.

Speaker 1 (40:31):
I may as well do it now.

Speaker 2 (40:32):
Let's go ahead and mention it.

Speaker 1 (40:33):
Okay, so our new book which again we will be doing in
episode 20, is the Witch of NewYork, the Trials of Polly
Bodine and the Cursed Birth ofTabloid Justice by Alex Hortis.
H-o-r-t-i-s.
I like the cover.

Speaker 2 (40:52):
It's pretty cool, it does.

Speaker 1 (40:53):
I think it's a map of New York, but in the silhouette
of a young lady from.

Speaker 2 (41:03):
I don't know Like Puritan looking.

Speaker 1 (41:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (41:06):
She's got like a bonnet.

Speaker 1 (41:07):
It says tabloid justice, so that would have to
be 19th century and probablyaround there.

Speaker 2 (41:13):
She's got some kind of bonnet or she's got a bonnet
or head covering.

Speaker 1 (41:16):
Well, I guess I could look through the book and see
if there's a a date 1843reminiscent of what one
envisions puritan women to looklike.
Yeah, no, that's true.
That's true.
Did you know?
I don't know if this isabsolutely true because the

(41:37):
Puritans aren't really mywheelhouse, but I believe I read
somewhere that the in fact, Ithink it was probably the book
the Witches by Rebecca no notRebecca Solnit.
What's her name?
Solnit?
No, not Rebecca Solnit.
What's her name?
Stacey Schiff, who did theCleopatra biography Okay, the

(41:58):
big one, like 10 years ago.
Anyway, that you know how thePuritans are always.
They always look like they'rewearing black and they're all
solemn and whatever.
Yep, those were the rich ones.
Huh, that makes sense, becausethe darker dyes were more
expensive.

Speaker 2 (42:12):
That black pure cloth would be expensive.
Yeah, yeah, I never thoughtabout it, but that makes perfect
sense yeah, it does um, butagain, don't quote me on that.

Speaker 1 (42:24):
I believe I read it somewhere.
I know I didn't dream itbecause I don't dream of
puritans I'm not gonna letpuritans ruin black for me no,
no, did you get?
Did you get that, uh, real ormeme, or something, I don't know
what it's called that I sentyou, oh, I think.

Speaker 2 (42:42):
I think it was on instagram.
Yeah, probably not then,because I've been toggling
between my nailstagramnailstagram your, your, um nail
stuff.
Sorry I, I was gonna saysomething clever about me coming
up with words, but that's okay,ironically, what the words left

(43:04):
me no, it's just um.

Speaker 1 (43:07):
It's just that there is a gothic day, a goth day, and
I think it's in germany everyyear, oh, and I think I sent it
to you and and our friend thatsays can we go here please?
When is the goth day?
I don't know.
I think it was recently.

Speaker 2 (43:24):
Okay, I'll have to, because you know who would like.
That is jay yeah, cool.

Speaker 1 (43:30):
Hey, I wear a lot of black.
They're uh, I don't know if Iam truly goth, but, right, I
think I'm like goth-adjacent.

Speaker 2 (43:40):
Yeah, I think we are kind of goth-adjacent.

Speaker 1 (43:43):
On the fringes.

Speaker 2 (43:43):
Yeah, I kind of like colors too, but I don't know
like I identify with like gothstuff a lot.
Yeah, I recently learned likewell, I mean like I already know
about like whatever, likepastel goth, but I recently
learned the term like bubblegumgoth, yeah, and I was like, hey,
that kind of suits.

Speaker 1 (44:02):
Kind of fits you.

Speaker 2 (44:03):
Yeah, yeah, if there's a lazy bubblegum goth.

Speaker 1 (44:10):
Yeah, yeah.
I'm lazy goth.
I like black clothing, but I'mnot going to do any of the other
shit.

Speaker 2 (44:19):
But yeah, Jay really likes German stuff.

Speaker 1 (44:22):
Yeah, and they are.

Speaker 2 (44:24):
I'm not 100% that it was in.

Speaker 1 (44:25):
Germany, but I think it was in Germany.

Speaker 2 (44:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (44:29):
Or Germany adjacent.

Speaker 2 (44:32):
What would Germanophile Sure, why not?

Speaker 1 (44:37):
Sounds good.
Yeah, it does sound good.
I don't know if it's accurate.

Speaker 2 (44:41):
If you know the appropriate word.

Speaker 1 (44:43):
You can send it to us .

Speaker 2 (44:44):
Send something.

Speaker 1 (44:45):
There are just crickets out there, right, yeah,
okay, so have you.

Speaker 2 (44:51):
I recently used our.
I misused our email to get likea coupon.

Speaker 1 (44:57):
At least it's good for something.

Speaker 2 (45:03):
Corruption.

Speaker 1 (45:04):
Yeah, hey, you gotta wiggle this through the system.

Speaker 2 (45:09):
Apparently, I had used my email before, but like a
million years ago.
I was like I don't evenremember it.
So I was like I gotta send it.

Speaker 1 (45:18):
So I have so many fake emails to sign up for stuff
.
Yeah, I don't even know themall anymore yeah, I bet because
you use them once for thingslike that and you forget about
them because you can't reallyuse them again.
Yeah, now I'm just lazy and Idon't care if I have to sign up

(45:39):
by email and my actual email hasalready been used.
I'm like fuck it, right?
So you've been working a lot,but have you been reading or
watching?
I know you've had a migrainefor the whole week.

Speaker 2 (45:52):
Yeah, it hasn't been that many days since we no, it
really hasn't monday we recordedright yeah, yeah, we finished
that book strange sally diamonduh-huh, uh, do you still
recommend it?
Yeah, yeah, I do okay, I enjoyhow many stars.
I gave it five stars oh, soit's a good one.

(46:12):
It it was a good one.
Yeah, it kept me captivated andit had like some different POVs
and I kind of kept me guessinglike what's going to happen,
like how is like one of thecharacters I won't really go
into seems kind of morallyambiguous and you don't really
know, like it kind of seems likehe'd go either way.
You know, I like morallyambiguous and you don't really

(46:34):
know.
Like he kind of seems like he'dgo either way you know, I like
morally ambiguous characters.
You don't really know like howhe's gonna be or how he's gonna
act, until like the end.
Yeah.
So, um, and then, uh, I starteduh that.
And then I started thatMonstrelio book that I've had in

(46:57):
my Audible for quite some timeand I was trying to.
I was holding on to it becauseI was like, are we going to read
it together?
But since you have beenslacking on reading our books
together, I was like I'm goingto read it.

Speaker 1 (47:11):
I've just been busy.

Speaker 2 (47:13):
Yeah, I know you have been busy, I've been busy, busy
.
Yeah, I know you have been busy, I've been busy too.

Speaker 1 (47:16):
I know.

Speaker 2 (47:16):
That's why my my reading has been slowed down
significantly.
Yeah, as well.

Speaker 1 (47:22):
I know, but at least you've done some.
Yeah, a little bit I haven't.
I think I'm too distracted andnervous about my trip to like
yeah, I bet it's on anything.

Speaker 2 (47:32):
I haven't gotten that far in Monstrelia.
I was listening to it on mylunch break, yeah, and we've
watched a few more episodes.
Well, actually we got throughseason one of Lower Decks and we
started season two.

Speaker 1 (47:48):
Cool yeah.
What streaming station is thaton?
It's on Paramount+.

Speaker 2 (47:52):
Paramount+.
Okay, Unfortunately, all theTrek is on Paramount+.

Speaker 1 (47:56):
Oh, that's right, it is Paramount+ kind of sucks.

Speaker 2 (47:59):
Yeah, like the platform.
Yeah, I don't have anyparticular feelings about it as
a production company.

Speaker 1 (48:06):
Right, it's just the actual user.
It's not as user-friendly asyou'd like.
It's not that user-friendly?

Speaker 2 (48:13):
Yeah, it's not that user friendly.
Yeah, there is.
There's not very many ads ifyou watch it on like tv, but if
I watch it on my cell phonethere's like a bajillion ads.
It's like not worth it.
Yeah, there's like so manyfucking ads like every five
seconds, and then, if you likehave to, it does this thing,

(48:33):
which hulu does this too, andit's super annoying where, if
you have watched the episodewhich sometimes we fall asleep,
and it watches through theepisode and we have to watch it
again or watch it actually thistime then we click on the
episode and it shows like thelast couple seconds, which

(48:57):
doesn't make sense, because whenwe fell asleep on it it played
all the way through.
So in theory, it should juststart over again, right, right,
but it just plays the lastcouple seconds and then when I
click to go back to thebeginning, then it plays like a
bajillion ads and it's veryobnoxious.

Speaker 1 (49:17):
It is.
Netflix has started ads.
That pisses me off, yeah, yeah.
And the thing.
See, I guess I don't reallymind ads because we used to get
them all the time when we didregular television, right, but
at least those on the televisionwere timed well right, and now

(49:38):
these are so random they'll getyou, like, right in the middle
of a sentence even when, evenwhen there shows that were made
for television, yeah, and havepre-programmed ad breaks, they
don't put the ads at that time.

Speaker 2 (49:51):
It's so annoying it is, it's very annoying.
And then I feel like at leastwhen we had like whatever
regular tv, I felt like we gotmore variety of ads instead of
having to watch the same fuckinglike walmart ad like 20 times,
right, because the algorithm islike well, you must like these,

(50:11):
blah, blah, blah.
Well, and it's so stupid, itit's like I'm going to shop for
Walmart, whether you show me afucking ad or not.
Like, because it's cheap andI'm poor.
So of course I'm shopping atWalmart, Like.
You don't have to show me thisad, Right.

Speaker 1 (50:25):
Yeah, I know I always get the stupid car ads.
I'm like I'm not going to buy acar, I can't afford to.

Speaker 2 (50:31):
Right, I get those too.
They're like, oh, it's alwaysthose fucking Subaru commercials
.

Speaker 1 (50:36):
Or the Ram.

Speaker 2 (50:39):
Oh, yes, yeah, those fucking trucks Ford F-150s.

Speaker 1 (50:43):
Yeah, I'm not going to buy that.
Even if I had money, I wouldnever every million lifetimes,
buy a Ford F-150.

Speaker 2 (50:49):
I don't even drive.
I don't have a license.
I can't afford a car.
Even if I did and if I could doall of those things, it would
not be a ford f-150.

Speaker 1 (50:59):
No you have to mortgage your house.
Stop that you don't have watchnow, darn.
We lost our ford sponsorship Idon't think they'd want us no I
I don't think so either.
You watched?
You finished reading.
Yeah, you've been working, yes,and parenting and parenting.

Speaker 2 (51:23):
Yeah, Parenting is the job that never ends.

Speaker 1 (51:27):
I bet it seems exhausting.

Speaker 2 (51:30):
My regular job has been so much easier.
My regular job has been so mucheasier so that doing the
regular job is like taking avacation from my real job of
being a parent Right.

Speaker 1 (51:45):
I bet.

Speaker 2 (51:49):
Anything else, not really that eventful.
Yeah, I have like a four day.
I've had a four day migraine.
Right now I'm feeling okaybecause I'm hopped up on many
meds, but we'll see.
And also it's been fading inthe evening and I'm like maybe

(52:10):
it's gone and then I wake upwith it again.

Speaker 1 (52:13):
The worst thing in the world is to wake up with a
migraine.
I hate that.

Speaker 2 (52:18):
Yeah, you go to bed fine, and it's like no matter
when you wake up.
And this morning I woke up atlike four because my daughter
woke up and she needed water andinstead of getting up to get
water which she's old enough toget her own water she decided to
yell at me from the bedroomuntil I got up to get her water.

(52:43):
That's when I was like, oh,this migraine is here still,
yeah, and so I took some meds.
I went back to bed.
Those meds didn't do muchbecause when I woke up again,
like less than two hours later,it was there even worse, yeah.
And I was like well, it's goingto be another long day, and

(53:06):
this one has been.
This Monday and today have beenthe worst migraine days of the
week.
Working with migraines sucksyeah, especially if it involves
like reading or yeah, staring atthe fucking computer.

Speaker 1 (53:23):
That doesn't help anything, yeah, yeah, and then
you're stressed out because youhave the migraine, which worsens
the migraine yep, yep, yeah,yeah, I had one last week and I
was playing a lot of like is ittoo much caffeine?
Not enough caffeine, too muchwater Not enough water.

(53:43):
Is it too much eating?
Not enough eating.

Speaker 2 (53:45):
Am I stressed?
Am I what?
Always that yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (53:50):
Yeah, turns out it was all of the above and none of
the above.
I don't know, it came, itstayed for four days and it went
away.

Speaker 2 (53:59):
Yeah, Well, hopefully mine is at the end of its cycle
.
I hope, yeah, Crossing myfingers.

Speaker 1 (54:08):
Crossing my toes.
So since we put personal infoout there anyway, do you think
the-.
What personal info did I putout there?
Well, just about our aches andpains and medications oh,
whatever yeah, do you think thepreventative medicine for the
migraines uh, making you havefewer migraines worth it, even

(54:29):
though when you get themigraines they?
Last like three or four days,or would you rather have the
shorter, a lot of shortermigraines?
I don't know I'm not sure.

Speaker 2 (54:38):
I'm not sure.

Speaker 1 (54:40):
That's a great question and I feel like these
longer migraines seem to be.
They're resistant, they're bad,they're worse than any of the
others but they're also seem tobe resistant to medication.

Speaker 2 (54:56):
Sorry, I'm see that's another ADHD thing is I keep I
anticipate what you're going tosay and then I'm like, but
sometimes I don't know, so Ishould just shut the fuck up,
it's okay.

Speaker 1 (55:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (55:07):
It's.
It's been bad, but the lasttime I was like I was like I'm
going to stop that prevent,remember that I was like I'm
going to stop that.
Remember that I was like I'mgoing to stop that preventative
med because then I'm on becausethe side effects are annoying.
And I stopped it.
And then I got like a five daymigraine and I was like and yeah

(55:28):
, it was bad.
And I was like I was likeplease give me that med again,
give me those side effects.
Yeah, so I guess it is worth it, but then when yeah, moments
like this, I'm like I don't know, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (55:45):
Yeah, yeah, I don't know either.

Speaker 2 (55:48):
It would sure help if I could get that other med that
emergency med.

Speaker 1 (55:52):
Yeah, that would be really great yeah, that would be
really great yeah, althoughthis last time that one didn't
help, which is why I think itmight have been like a stress
migraine.
She said it doesn't work onstress migraines.

Speaker 2 (56:03):
I mean I'm sure it doesn't help, Like nothing seems
to help 100% of the time.
No no, but you know, if you'relike me, it's probably just,
you're probably like anythingright?
Anything that can help.
Yeah, you're going to try it.

Speaker 1 (56:21):
Yeah, that's true, that's true.
I do all of the things.
Yeah, all of the things, yeah,even the out there things which
I won't talk about on podcast.

Speaker 2 (56:32):
But yeah, yeah, oh my God, anything you read about
you're like searching theinternet, like how you know, did
you try fever a few before?
I remember I got a bunch offever a few because they're like
fever if you prevent migraines.
So nasty, it tasted like assand it didn't prevent migraines.
No, I didn't know that well.

(56:54):
I don't recommend it.

Speaker 1 (56:58):
No I'll tell you, not on here, but I'll tell you in
private, the one that I've readin the new york times opinion
piece, but I can't find it.
It was like 15 years ago, but Iremembered it and sometimes I do
it and it does help, but I'mnot going to put out here.
If y'all want to know what itis, then you should like dm me

(57:18):
or email or something, but I'mnot going to put it on the
podcast I have my daith piercedthat's another popular one, yeah
and I did feel like maybe itheld for a little bit or because
?

Speaker 2 (57:32):
because usually I get my migraines on the left side,
and so I got my Dath on my leftside and for a while after, when
I did get migraines, it was onthe right side.
So I was like it must work, I'mgoing to get the right side
Dath done too, and then Istarted getting them back on the
left side again.

Speaker 1 (57:53):
Yeah, mine are almost always on the right side.
It looks cute.

Speaker 2 (57:57):
Yeah, so, but I don't know yeah maybe one day I will
get my right day pierce justjust for shits and giggles.
But I don't know.
I don't know if it really didanything for a migraine
prevention yeah.

Speaker 1 (58:14):
So what did I do?
I watched the world's mostwanted.
I watched the newer documentaryon the hunt for the um boston
marathon bombers, yeah, whichwas really interesting.
I forgot a lot of that and uhoh, and I watched the first part

(58:34):
of season three of Bridgerton,the first four episodes which I
told you about earlier.
I don't think that carriagescene was all that steamy.

Speaker 2 (58:43):
Yes, katie was telling me about that earlier.

Speaker 1 (58:46):
Yeah, I see all these things on Instagram and, I
think, buzzfeed and all thatstuff that say PopSugar maybe.

Speaker 2 (58:55):
Shonda Rhimes.
You haven't impressed, katie,yet.
Better step up your game.

Speaker 1 (59:00):
Well, I also have a very high tolerance for steam
because of all the smut Iconsume.
I guess I mean it wasn't notsteamy, it just wasn't the
steamy I was promised.
I mean, I guess there's only somuch that you can show.
I know, I know, but, like Isaid, I thought slap the dick on
the screen no, none of that,that's not what I mean, but like

(59:22):
I thought the the scene intitanic was steamier than this
one yeah and it showed less.

Speaker 2 (59:27):
Yeah, you know I mean sometimes showing less is
steamier, yeah yeah, I mean the,the handprint, yeah.
Yeah, that was pretty salacious.

Speaker 1 (59:38):
I remember seeing that when I was quite young, I
was like damn Ooh.
Yeah, don't come at me.
I'm sure it was steamy.
I just have a high tolerancefor it and I liked it.
I mean I didn't really watchthe other two seasons.
I watched like one episode eachand I didn't really care for it

(59:59):
.
But I like this seasonSurprisingly, because I
mentioned I don't like the tropeof the.
I don't like the best friend'sbrother trope.
I don't like any of the bestfriend's brother or brother's
best friend or whatever.
I don't like any of those.
Stay friends.

Speaker 2 (01:00:15):
I liked the whatever last season.
I don't like any of those Stayfriends.
I liked the whatever lastseason.
I liked that.
I don't like the dude, but thegirl is cute, and I liked that
she was older and she didn'tseem so starry-eyed as the
character in the first season.
Yeah, so the guy in the firstseason.

(01:00:38):
Yeah, so the guy in the firstseason is quite good looking.
Yeah, although I think he'ssworn to never return to
Bridgerton again.
But yeah, I didn't like thatthere seemed to be quite a power
imbalance with, like, neo, likeher level of inexperience and I

(01:01:01):
mean, although I will sayprobably that was the situation
for a lot of people, yeah, but Ididn't like how she was like so
young and so inexperienced.
It didn't feel right to me.

Speaker 1 (01:01:19):
Yeah, although she probably would have been right.
She probably would.
She's what?
16 I mean, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:01:25):
I think she was supposed to be 18.
Right, I hope, I hope she wassupposed to be 18, but yeah, I
just thought that in the secondseason it seemed like, you know,
the actress was supposed to, orthe character, not the actress,
I shouldn't say, because, likewe were talking about earlier,
the actress from this seasonplays quite a young character

(01:01:49):
and the actress is like 37.
Yeah, and she looks fantastic.
She does.
I'm almost that age and I don'tlook like that.
That's okay, I'm hanging myhead.

Speaker 1 (01:02:02):
You don't look your age though.

Speaker 2 (01:02:04):
Well, thank you.
I think that I look quite old,but I am comparing myself to
past me's.

Speaker 1 (01:02:12):
Yeah, well, yeah, you're going to be older than
past past you but I don't thinkyou look your age.

Speaker 2 (01:02:17):
Well, thank you.
I think that jay doesn't looktheir age.
They were complaining the otherday.
They were like I have a visiblewrinkle.

Speaker 1 (01:02:27):
They're two years older than me hey, I've got
crow's feet, so for years yeah,I've got crow's feet, so, and
I'm 40, and I'm pretty sure Ifound a gray hair which made me
sad.

Speaker 2 (01:02:42):
I have had a couple of gray hairs.

Speaker 1 (01:02:45):
Although Anderson Cooper went gray in his 20s, so
that doesn't really meananything, yeah yeah, yeah, I
think it's cute when there'slike a streak of gray or
something so.

Speaker 2 (01:02:57):
I hope that mine is going to do that, but I don't
think it will.
So anyway, so the character wasolder, the character was like
in her mid-20s and she didn'tseem like she was like ooh, sex,
I don't know what that is Right.
So I appreciated those aspects,those changes, Not changes.
I just liked that in thecharacter better.

(01:03:20):
It didn't feel as icky to me.

Speaker 1 (01:03:23):
Yeah, so one of the things I liked about Penelope,
in this season at least, is thatthere's a scene where she gets
a new style of dress Becauseshe's decided she needs to get a
husband or whatever, and someguys come up to like, I guess,

(01:03:44):
do the regency version offlirting, and her flirting was
about as awkward and terrible asmy flirting is I.

Speaker 2 (01:03:52):
I think my flirting is also awkward and terrible,
but I managed to snag one personwith it.
I was going to say that Idemand more gay characters.
Shonda Rhimes, I want a gayromance.
I don't care who it is, justgive me a gay romance.

(01:04:15):
Like you've had many seasons ofthe heteros, give us a season
of gays.
Yeah, yeah.
Maybe, that's my message.
Yeah, I'm sure that ShondaRhimes is listening in right now
.
Of course, or gives a shit orsome high level Netflix

(01:04:37):
executive and like taking notes,like more gay characters, gay
romance yeah, I don't even careif it's a sapphic or a Killian,
just give us some flavor of gayromance.

Speaker 1 (01:04:58):
The prostitutes in this one are girl on girl.
That's a popular thing?
I know it is.
I'm just teasing you.

Speaker 2 (01:05:07):
They're like oh my god, look at these dirty gay
prostitutes.
Game of Thrones, I'm looking atyou.

Speaker 1 (01:05:18):
It's their job and they do it well.

Speaker 2 (01:05:21):
We all know that gay is sexy.
Okay, let's show.
Let's also see some wholesomeromance okay.
I mean, I guess it's.
The romance is supposed to bealso sexy and steamy, but yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:05:39):
Not.
But sexy and steamy isn'tnecessarily raunchy, which?

Speaker 2 (01:05:42):
is what the prostitution scenes are supposed
to be.
It's just prostitutes going ateach other because some male
gays dude paid them for it.
Yeah, so.

Speaker 1 (01:05:57):
So that's Rachel's demand.
Yes, uh, I think that's it.
That's all I've really done.
No reading I promise I willread, mary, I will take it with
me, it'll be my beach read it'sgood.
I'm sure it's good.
It has the four pages I readare good, I just you look so
grim about it.
No, I just don't know why Ihaven't read it, like I just

(01:06:22):
haven't been able to focus onanything.
I mean, even one of my favoritewriters came out with a new
book and I haven't even lookedat it.
Should we read that?
I don't think you want to readit.
Oh, okay, and you'd have toread a bunch of the previous
ones to get it.
That sounds like effort.
Yeah, it's romance.
It's a Jane Castle.
Oh, okay, I think you mightlike them.

(01:06:43):
They're not particularly steamyand they involve, like, alien
tech and like well, you're notinto that, so maybe not
Paranormal type, powers typepowers, basically, what kind of
paranormal powers?
so like, basically, the idea isthat there are these families,

(01:07:07):
these bloodlines, that umthrough time because she writes
under several different whatever, but they all kind of mesh
together, um, that havedifferent abilities, like
basically, it's like what wehave as humans but it's enhanced
.
Yeah, right, um.
So things like there's a hunterone where they're just really

(01:07:27):
good at detecting things.
Uh, there's one where, like,they can see footprints and
stuff.
There are dreamers, there arepeople who can sing, but they
their singing ability okay likedoes like that.

Speaker 2 (01:07:38):
I like fantasy.
I just don't like when peoplethink that fantasy is reality
yeah, no, it's.

Speaker 1 (01:07:44):
It's that kind of stuff mixed into reality okay
and her jane castle uh, pen namethat takes place on a place
called harmony.
So the idea is these peoplefrom earth, something happened,
um, and they're able to go to analien planet which they name

(01:08:05):
harmony.
Okay, this thing closes, sothey can't go back to earth, and
so this whole other earth-likecivilization has popped up.
Right, but they all have theseabilities and many of them are
enhanced because of the alientechnology that's on the planet.
Okay, um, so it's fun, but,like I said, in order for you to
really enjoy this one, you'dprobably have to read the other

(01:08:25):
ones.

Speaker 2 (01:08:26):
I mean, you don't have to, we could give one a try
, and yeah, because some of themgo all the way back to the 80s
and some of those are just likeJane come now.

Speaker 1 (01:08:37):
I know it was the 80s , but you know, be better.
She did get better.
Yeah, the ladies are better inthese later ones, but yeah, I
mean, maybe we could read thenew one.
I have to look at the new oneto see.
But she always uses the word inevery single book.
At least once she uses the wordI always pronounced it frisson,

(01:08:59):
but that's not the word Frisson, frisson, yeah, always, always,
every single book.

Speaker 2 (01:09:06):
Well, no wonder, because it's so fucking fancy.
It is fancy.

Speaker 1 (01:09:11):
It is like a frisson of awareness, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:09:15):
I thought it was frisson too.

Speaker 1 (01:09:16):
Yeah, that's what I thought, but the readers when
you learn words yeah, readinglike you, don't you?
Don't hear them anywhere, soyou make them up.
Yeah, that's, maybe I've saidthis on here before, I don't
know, but that's why people Ithink sometimes people say I
have an accent because Imispronounce words, because I
never heard them before.
I I learned them by reading.

Speaker 2 (01:09:37):
Yeah, People think lots of things are accents.
People always thought mysisters had British accents
because they had speechimpediments.
Yeah, and I like it.
It sounds like a speechimpediment, but to me I'm like
that doesn't sound anything likea British accent.
No, it doesn't but peoplearen't very good at
distinguishing that sort ofthing.

(01:09:57):
No.

Speaker 1 (01:10:00):
And maybe they don't mean accent, they just don't
know what else to call it.
But I mean, I do.
I know I mispronounce thingsall the time.

Speaker 2 (01:10:09):
I have a mild speech impediment too, although mostly
I taught myself out of it, but Istill.
Sometimes I have trouble sayingR's and I make like a W sound
instead, Especially if it's inthe middle of certain words.
So if you ever catch me doingthat, that's why that's what
that was.
Yeah, yeah, so Interesting, butin general, if anybody is

(01:10:34):
listening, if you think somebodymight have a speech impediment,
just don't comment on it at all.

Speaker 1 (01:10:43):
Maybe they really didn't think they had
impediments.
Maybe, they really did thinkthere was an accent.
Yeah, that's true.
Who knows, who knows.
So I guess that's it.
Yeah, yes, okay, one more time.

Speaker 2 (01:10:57):
Our book.
I'm hearing buzz, buzz, so Isuspect Jay is messaging me.

Speaker 1 (01:11:01):
So we're almost done.
So one more time, just so weremember Episode 20, the new
book is the Witch of New York,the Trials of Polly Bodine and
the Cursed Birth of Tabloid.
Joystice Justice by Alex Hortus.
Joystice justice by alex hortus.

(01:11:23):
And last time we forgot toremind everybody to like,
subscribe, follow, download,yeah, um, and also do that to
our socials.
Follow us on our socials, whichwill be in the show notes.
And I fixed the email one.
I realized, like on the lasttwo or three episodes I only had
half of the email address and Ididn't realize that till last
night or the night before.
Yeah, so that should be fixednow.

Speaker 2 (01:11:43):
Whoops, so email us, tell us whatever, send us an
email and say, hey, yeah, and Iwill read it.
Yes, and I'll be excited.
I'll probably text Katie, I'llbe like we got an email.
Yeah, it'll be exciting for us.

Speaker 1 (01:12:01):
For sure we have a fan, yeah, so this will be
coming out next.
No, it won't be coming out nextweek because our thing came out
this past week, so it'ssupposed to come back right
after I get come come back.
It's supposed to come out rightafter I get back from crime con
, but it may be late, so Iapologize if this was late

(01:12:24):
depends on how many drunkennights katie spent well, I ain't
bringing my computer, so noediting is going to be done that
makes sense.
I I assuming that I don't get soevery night drunken.
No, assuming that all of myplanes go according to plan.

(01:12:45):
I should be here on Monday the3rd, and so hopefully it will
get sent out on Wednesday.
Cannabis no, probably not.
That just makes me sleepy.

Speaker 2 (01:12:56):
Yeah, I mean, it makes me sleepy too, but it's
awesome for if you can't sleep.

Speaker 1 (01:13:02):
That is true.
Some of the best sleep I hadwas on that stuff, and also some
of the worst.
Did I tell you about thebrownie?

Speaker 2 (01:13:10):
It depends on what kind you get.

Speaker 1 (01:13:12):
Yeah, but usually the whatever people at the
dispensary can help you withthat, yeah, I haven't gone to
spell.
All of my experience was incollege.
Wait, where are?

Speaker 2 (01:13:21):
you going again is chop, even legal.
Where are you going?
Well in california oh, okay butyeah, I don't think tennessee
oh, no, yeah, didn't they justmake the bible?
They're like in state book orsome shit.
I have no idea, I don't know.
Yeah, I imagine that they havenot legalized marijuana there,
no, no, they should well sure,they should legalize it

(01:13:48):
emotionally yeah, and theyshould exonerate everybody who
is in jail on a marijuanaconviction.

Speaker 1 (01:13:55):
Yes, Okay, so like subscribe, follow, download Hit
us up on our Instas and ouremail and we will talk to you
next time, yep.

Speaker 2 (01:14:08):
Talk to you yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:14:10):
Bye Next time.

Speaker 2 (01:14:11):
Bye.