Trier and Salem Witch Trials

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This week, Kiki brings us two stories of witchcraft and hysteria. We're also celebrating our one-year anniversary and Halloween. There's no missing person case this week.

Our next book is "Long Haul: Hunting the Highway Serial Killers" by Frank Figliuzzi, which we will discuss in episode 28.

Sources: 

Witches: The Truth Behind the Trials -- episodes 1 and 2.

Socials:

Instagram: Details Are Sketchy - @details.are.sketchy
Facebook: Details Are Sketchy - @details.are.sketchy.2023
Instagram: Kiki - @kikileona84
Instagram: Rachel - @eeniemanimeenienailz
Email: [e-mail] 

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Kiki and I'm Rachel and this is.
Details are Sketchy, a truecrime podcast, and this is our
27th episode.
It will be coming out a year tothe day that I think our first
one came out First anniversaryAssuming I get my shit together
this weekend and actually editeverything and it's also our

(00:21):
Halloween episode.
Yep everything, and it's alsoour halloween episode, yep, but
we spent most of our time makingour celebratory cocktails we
sure did so we don't have amissing person again, but we
will next next episode episode20 I put my energy into making
masterpiece cocktails oh shit,the next one's 28.

(00:44):
Does that mean we have to haveher booked out?
Is this 27 or 26?

Speaker 2 (00:48):
I'm really.
I want to say it's 27 fused.
At this point I don't know.
I mean, I'm pretty sure it's 27, or it could be 28.

Speaker 1 (00:56):
All right, you check well, I know today's not the
28th, but I I just mean no, I'mnot saying it's the 28th, I the
27th.
I don't know what we're talkingabout.
I don't know what's happeninganymore.
Okay, well, shit, it is the27th.
So next week we got to have ourbook read.

Speaker 2 (01:15):
Don't make me laugh.
Every time I laugh I have acoughing fit.

Speaker 1 (01:20):
Well, don't do that.

Speaker 2 (01:22):
Yeah, and I don't want to eat one of those cough
drops, because then I won't beable to taste this delicious
cocktail that we made thosecough drops.
Are you found the recipe?
I executed the recipe.
It tastes like.
Did you ever drink like Kern'snectar?
No, oh my gosh.
Wow, that was a deliciousbeverage that I used to think oh

(01:47):
my gosh, this is so healthy.
It's just fruit juice.
Yeah, it's not even like this.

Speaker 1 (01:51):
I did the Kern's.

Speaker 2 (01:52):
Guava.

Speaker 1 (01:53):
Yeah, the pink guava.

Speaker 2 (01:54):
Yeah, it's like not, it's like 5% juice or something.
Yeah, it's like a juice drink.
Yeah, but A delicious one.
Yeah, yeah, but uh a deliciousone.

Speaker 1 (02:08):
Yeah, it is very delicious, um, but they're pina
colada flavor.

Speaker 2 (02:12):
This tastes a lot like that nice.
So nostalgia, yeah, with booze.

Speaker 1 (02:14):
Yeah, okay, so this is also our halloween episode.
So I, instead of doing a crimethat happened on halloween,
because I was thinking of thecandy man yeah, it was the dude
that killed his son and did thewhole like, oh, candy might be,
yeah, uh, poisoned or whateveruh, instead I thought about
witches witches being halloweeny, and so I thought about the

(02:35):
salem witch trial, since I justhad to teach it a month ago,
right, and so I looked up stuffthe way he says salem witch
trials.

Speaker 2 (02:44):
it sounded like sandwich trials.
Oh, I'm like hell yeah,sandwich trials.
Tell me about it.

Speaker 1 (02:53):
So I decided to do so .
I found this new series it'sseveral episodes, so it's
probably only just a one seriesthing about different witch
trials that have happened,starting with the first one in
germany and then the secondone's about the salem witch
trials.

Speaker 2 (03:13):
so those are the two I'm gonna do half of this
episode is gonna be me startingto laugh and then coughing.

Speaker 1 (03:21):
Very, very sexy stuff yes, okay, so I do have some
trigger warnings.
Uh, you know the usual sexismbecause witches, religious
persecution, also because ofwitches, religious fanaticism,
mention of various forms oftorture and executions of

(03:41):
innocent people.
So just a little side note,because I thought the little
statistic was interesting Nearly60,000 people, mostly women,
around 80% or so, were put todeath for the crime of
witchcraft over the course oftwo centuries.

(04:01):
That's a lot of people,particularly for that point in
time yeah you know that's a lotand that's only in europe,
that's.
That doesn't include any sort ofsimilar type of thing that
happened anywhere else.

Speaker 2 (04:14):
We really hate women.
What's a way that we can killwomen who act?

Speaker 1 (04:18):
different or stuff.
Oh, this one guy I'm going totalk about was definitely.
He definitely had some issueswith women.
Yeah, okay.

Speaker 2 (04:26):
I bet that if certain people could get away with that
today, that they most certainlywould.

Speaker 1 (04:38):
Oh, without question.
So background informationbefore we actually get to the
trials.
So the idea of a witch actuallybegins right at the beginning

(04:58):
of recorded human time.
In ancient times, a witch wassomeone who did harm in a
community by magical means.
They could do it using anythingyou might find in a natural
trial or anything like that,because they'd be thought of as
an asset to the community,because if they could do bad
magic, then they could also dogood magic, like healing people
or changing the weather from badweather to good weather.
So magic at that time was avery flexible force.

Speaker 2 (05:23):
Well, and let me interject a question weren't a
lot of like people who wereconsidered witches or whatever?
Didn't they just do a lot oflike herbalist stuff, like
herbalist, like kind of healingand yeah and shit like that?
Yeah which at that time waspretty legit medicine, because

(05:44):
medicine at that time was realshit yeah.

Speaker 1 (05:48):
Yeah, well, I mean, medicine at that time was herbal
.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, no, it didn't really awitch.
I don't think that reallybecame much of a thing until,

(06:08):
like medicine as we not even aswe think of it but medicine as a
profession, yeah, came intobeing and it began, became
dominated by men.
Okay, uh, but perceptions ofwitches and magic begin to
change by the 13th and 14thcenturies so that's gonna be the
1200s and 1300, and the worldbecame dangerous for anyone who
was believed to be a witch.

(06:31):
And if we think about it this,and all the way up to really the
late 1600s, 1700s, even intothe 1800s, it was not an easy
time to be alive.
But particularly in thecenturies we're talking about,
there's widespread war acrossEurope, most of it religious,

(06:52):
between Catholics, protestantsand other emerging sects.
There's also wide-scaleepidemics, especially the
bubonic plague, which killedpeople in very large numbers.
Sickness in general was justvery common, much more so than
today, and even the stuff westill get today, like colds and

(07:12):
stuff back then would have beenquite deadly for a lot of people
, particularly for children andelderly relatives.
And on top of that, you want toknow how they got in it.
I mean, germ theory didn't evencome around to the late 1800s.
So you didn't really know howpeople got sick.
It seemed sort of magical, itseemed natural to just kind of

(07:36):
blame evil, particularly ifyou're a religious person.
People, again, they have no wayof explaining disease and they
don't really have any way ofexplaining bad weather either,
or any weather really.
I mean, they don't really haveany knowledge of biology.
Sorry, it's okay, they don'treally have any knowledge of
biology, pathology, meteorology,any of that stuff.

(07:59):
And let's not forget I don'tknow if I mentioned it or not,
but this is also the time of theLittle Ice Age.

Speaker 2 (08:06):
So crops and A Little Ice Age sounds really good
right now.

Speaker 1 (08:10):
It does, although we probably might starve, you know,
because it would be likeyear-long winters, you know.
So witchcraft becomes areasonable explanation for why
lives are ruined, their children, livestock crops are dying and
why their homes burned down.
And not only do they now havean explanation, but if you say

(08:33):
witchcraft is the issue, youthen also have suspects.
Yeah, by the end of the 15thcentury so that's gonna be the
1400s fear of witchcraft inEuropean society then became
tied up in the fear of heresy.
So just a definition a hereticis someone who, according to
church authority, does notfollow the rules, regulations or

(08:57):
beliefs of christian orthodoxy.
So you're going to want toremember that stick a pin in it
when we talk about the types ofwomen who were getting so fast
you and I would not survive therich trials in the period of the
15th to 18th centuries.

(09:17):
nations are really more liketheocracies.
People are not comfortabledealing with all these different
divergent views, though, thatare popping up, not just between
Catholic and Protestant, buteven within the Protestant
communities.
I have to talk about this allthe time when we get into the
Puritans.
Puritans weren't even tolerantof other Puritans.
No, they sure weren't one rightreligion, particularly if you

(09:43):
believe in christianity there'salways just one right one.

Speaker 2 (09:46):
Puritanism is so predicated on, just like
constant judging of everythingand everyone around you yep,
although I think earlycatholicism is also kind of like
that.

Speaker 1 (09:59):
Sure, I'm not saying it wasn't, but yeah, no,
puritanism was particularly um.
Yeah, they did enjoy reading,though, and you have to give
them credit.
I mean, they got here and theyalmost immediately started up a
college sure, harvard granted,it was for theology, but at
least they like their books I'mnot feeling too cozy towards no

(10:22):
i'mans, no.
I'm just, I'm trying to have apleasant spin on anything.

Speaker 2 (10:26):
They used to murder the Quakers.

Speaker 1 (10:28):
Yes, I know.
No, they were not.
They were not.
They were not a kind people.
No, not even to each other.
Okay, so in the period of the15th to the 18th centuries, so
the 1400s to the 1700s, nationsare really more like theocracies

(10:49):
.
I just said that, okay, peopleare not comfortable dealing with
all these different divergentviews and of course, there's
only supposed to be one rightone.
So the church, this being theCatholic Church mainly decided
that witches and heretics arevery much alike.
All of the things that peoplehave been thinking about before

(11:11):
various good kinds of magic,medicinal things like
manipulating the weather getswept up into this new
definition of what a witch is.
So now, a witch is not onlysomeone who does harm to their
community, but does it becauseof the devil.

Speaker 2 (11:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (11:28):
Witches.
The devil made them do it.
Yeah, the witches, I'm sorry,not the witches.
Witches now might make a pactwith the devil.
So, for example, they would begiven power in exchange for
handing over their body and soulto the devil and for worshiping
the devil I wish I could getsome power in exchange for

(11:49):
worshiping the devil.
It's true, though, like if itwere like that fucking easy all
right, like I know, yeah, and Imean, some of these sabbaths
sound like a good time, thesedevil sabbaths.

Speaker 2 (12:02):
I mean according to, like these religions, like most
of these people are going tohell anyway, so like why the
hell wouldn't you?

Speaker 1 (12:10):
Yeah, yeah, or not preordained, predestined, yeah,
okay.
So it became more and morelikely that witches would be
women, because of the underlyingview in all countries European
countries that women were theweaker sex.
Women are weaker, so they'remore susceptible to the devil's
temptations, which, if you thinkabout it, just seems so weird.

(12:31):
Like everybody's, like womenare so tempting to men, like you
got to cover up everythingbecause men are tempted, doesn't
that mean men are more?

Speaker 2 (12:38):
weak right and and and, yeah, I.
And.
Because their whole rhetoricright is because the devil right
tempted Eve to eat from theforbidden fruit, right, but all
it took for Adam was for Eve tosay here, eat this fruit.

Speaker 1 (12:56):
Yeah.
So the Catholic Church decidesthat there really are witches
and that it's the church's jobto find them.
So now we have this perfectstorm for witch hunts.
We have intense religioustension, lots of warfare.
We're already prone topersecution.

(13:19):
We've got bad weather becauseit's the Ice Age oh sorry,
little Ice Age.
We've got bad weather becauseit's the Ice Age oh sorry,
little Ice Age.
And then we have a new idea ofa satanic crusade using witches.
Yeah, throughout the 15thcentury there were sporadic
witch trials.
Also, there were a number ofwritings on demonology.

(13:41):
A demonologist is an expert ina way that demons work, but in
the 1400s a demonologist wouldincreasingly look at how witches
worked as well.
So demonologists also became anexpert on witches, and so
witches became demons.
They didn't say it, theydeclared it.
They declared it.
An important demonologist ofthe time was a Dominican monk

(14:05):
named Heinrich Kramer.
His hunt for witches begins asa one-man crusade.
He believed deeply that womenwere weak in every respect their
bodies, their minds and theirsouls.
So, anyway's, he goes to romeand received an official writ by

(14:25):
the pope that declares him tohim by the way, him, not other
people, just him to beresponsible for eradicating
witches in southern germany.

Speaker 2 (14:35):
He just got a writ from the pope, just like that
just like that.

Speaker 1 (14:38):
I mean, I'm sure there was more to it, but I mean
this is a 45 minute episode soI don't.
They didn't really go into itand it was 10 o'clock at night,
so I did not google.
Yeah, in 1485.
Well, actually I did google andit just said the same thing.
So, right in 1485, kramerbegins as kramer begins as trial

(14:59):
.
Kramer begins a trial ininnsbruck, austria.
So just an fyi, I think'llprobably say this later on, but
what is now?
Germany and Austria and otherparts of that area were actually
just the Roman Holy Empire.
Germany didn't exist as anation, and neither did Austria.
They were the Holy Roman Empire.

(15:22):
So he encouraged people todenounce other people that they
regarded as witches.
So he gets the name of sevenwomen, and he becomes very
interested in helena.
Shall, shall we bring showerbaron?
Shower baron, sure, she will bethe first accused and brought

(15:44):
to court.
Some of the local clergy,though, actually intervene in
her trial, because they don'tbelieve kramer or his
accusations.
And he?
They think he is crazy, theythink he's a loon.
No, uh, the trial is anabsolute fiasco, and he is
basically, you know, pitchforksand all thrown out of town any

(16:05):
word on why he picked her?
um, they didn't say, but I thinkit's probably because she was a
little bit older, yeah, andprobably a little more
independent.
Oh, um, they didn't say that,but that's kind of how it came
off reading between the lines,all their women who can stand on

(16:26):
their own feet.

Speaker 2 (16:26):
How dare they?

Speaker 1 (16:27):
Mm-hmm.
So he is so upset by thefailure in Innsbruck that he
writes guess what book.

Speaker 2 (16:37):
What book Death to Women.

Speaker 1 (16:40):
Malleus Maleficarum, also known as the hammer of
witches.

Speaker 2 (16:46):
It is full of the hammer of witches.
Is he the hammer?

Speaker 1 (16:53):
pretty much every anybody who hunts witches is a
hammer.

Speaker 2 (16:55):
Yeah, like um have you ever seen like dr horrible?
And uh, have you seen that likedr horrible?

Speaker 1 (17:03):
yeah, with nathan phillian the musical yeah, yeah,
um what's his name um neilpatrick harris?

Speaker 2 (17:10):
neil patrick harris, yeah, exactly, and felicia day
yeah and uh uh, nathan phillianis like, he's like the bad guy,
but he's the good guy, rightneil patrick harris is the bad
guy, but he's the good guy,right?
neil patrick harris is the badguy, but he's the good guy,
right.
And uh, neil patrick harris andand nathan filling they're both

(17:30):
competing, like for felicia day.
And and um, neil or nathanfilling tells neil patrick
harris that he's gonna givefelicia day the hammer, and the
hammer is his penis I don'tremember that, but that's
hilarious, sure, sure it isanyway, that's what yeah, no, I

(17:58):
know it does sound.

Speaker 1 (18:01):
I mean the hammer of witches does sound uh mildly
sexual in nature.

Speaker 2 (18:07):
I mean, I'm sure there is some kind of like you
know, weird sex thing hate yeah,I don't doubt it in soul shit
yeah ancient insoles yeah, it isfull of everything a wind, a
witch hunter.

Speaker 1 (18:24):
A witch hunter needs to know about witches and witch
hunting.
It's their Bible, as it were,for centuries.
And interesting translationside notes.
I love.

Speaker 2 (18:36):
Do they call it their Bible?
No, oh, okay, I was going tosay isn't that heresy?

Speaker 1 (18:41):
No, I said it was their Bible.
Oh, okay, no.
So I love a good translationside note.
So this translation side noteis that the actual literal
translation of MalleusMaleficarum is the hammer of the
female evildoers.

Speaker 2 (18:59):
So does witch mean female evildoer.

Speaker 1 (19:03):
I would assume so I don't really know which mean
female evildoer, I would assume,so I don't really know.
What Kramer actually does ischange the emphasis for what
witchcraft was.
So this is that whole now it'sheretical instead of just
harmful.
But he changes it specificallyfor the elite, educated men.

Speaker 2 (19:23):
If you're thinking about it that way, like whatever
evildoer, does that mean thatit doesn't have to be a
perception of any kind ofsupernatural origin there, just
has?
To be a perception ofwrongdoing or evildoing?

Speaker 1 (19:41):
No, because I think evil would be supernatural, okay
.
No, because I think evil wouldbe supernatural, okay.
And in Malleus Maleficarum,kramer argues that there's no
need for lawyers because theyare obsessed with small details
like whether or not their clientis guilty.
Right, you can just do away withthose.
Exactly so.
Instead, suspected witchesshould be tortured as soon as

(20:02):
possible Makes sense.
Yeah, the book becomes verypopular in what is now Germany,
austria and Switzerland.
Now witches are seen as aserious threat to the Christian
world and panic grows in Germanywhere one of the first mass
witch trials begins.
And, to be clear, it's not justbecause of the book, it's just

(20:25):
kind of all the perfect stormsthat come together.
Germany is a hot spot forreligious conflict in the 15th,
16th and 17th centuries, sothat's going to be the 1400s to
the 1600s, and so Germans areprobably thinking more about
what role the devil plays intheir lives.
Germans are probably thinkingmore about what role the devil

(20:45):
plays in their lives.
Yeah, the temptation to believein the wrong thing, to sin, etc
.
Maybe then they are going to bemore prone to having witch
trials.
Is what one of the scholarsargues.
Maybe that's why it starts offin Germany and took most of the

(21:06):
trials took place modern daygermany again, I think I just
said this, but we'll go over itagain.
Uh, doesn't exist at this time.
It's part of a bigger, verypolitically fragmented and
that's important fragmentedentity called the holy roman
empire.
So this means that political andlegal authority is really left
to regional and territorialrulers so in the 1580s, trier is

(21:30):
an independent state ruled by acounter-reformation roman
catholic fanatic named johannvon schoenberg I'm going to be
calling him the prince elector,uh, from this point on.
So he believes that satan isout to destroy the catholic
church using witches asinstruments, and he is

(21:52):
determined to keep trier fromfree from witches.
So I just want to be clear whenwe're talking about trier,
we're talking about all of cheer, but I'm also going to be
talking about the city of Trier.

Speaker 2 (22:04):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (22:12):
So things are not good in Trier.
They are getting hailstorms andfrosts during the summer and
early autumns, which means theircrops are damaged.
And because their crops aredamaged, they're losing their
livelihoods.
And since witches can controlthe weather, it must be their
fault.
Trier, like other places, hasspecial village committees whose

(22:34):
only purpose is to identifywitches.
And, by the way, these are notlike the typical witch hunters
who would know about all these.

Speaker 2 (22:44):
These are just like random people with no education
who decide who witches are rightone of the things that super
interests me about, likechristianity and different
interpretations of christianity,is like the variable amounts of
power.
Yeah, the devil is supposed tohave like, in some instances
like very little power yeah inother instances, like he's got

(23:10):
so much power, you can givethese witches enough power to
cause hailstorms and all thischaos and things of that nature
treer, like other places, havespecial village committees whose
only purpose is to identifywitches.

Speaker 1 (23:30):
And here's the way it works If a person knew of
someone who was likely to have apact with the devil, they would
inform the committee and thecommittee would collect evidence
and hear witnesses.
Once all of that's collected,they pay a clerk and the
information is given to theofficial of the prince elector
and the accused would bearrested and then they would be
taken to court, and, generallyspeaking, in Trier.

(23:52):
That court would be in the cityof Trier, or at least they would
be kept at the city of Trier.
It was unclear to me if that'swhere the trials would also be
held, because, like when we talkabout the Salem witch trials,
they're kept up in Boston.
So these committees thoughthese are all the ones I'm

(24:13):
talking about these are all likevillage committees.
They're in the the territory ofTrier rather than the city, so
they don't really have an impacton the city of Trier, except in
an emotional way, because,since these accused witches are
going to Trier to be held forcourt, people are now starting

(24:35):
to think about witches, and sothere were rumors that witches
escaped into the city to avoidbeing arrested, and there's a
bit of a fervor and a lot morepeople get arrested, and so much
so that prisons are filled withsuspected witches like filled

(24:55):
to the brim.

Speaker 2 (24:56):
There isn't enough room so people did flee, or they
were just like.
We think that so-and-so willflee and therefore lock them up.

Speaker 1 (25:07):
So they think that witches who don't want to be
arrested are fleeing into thecity of Trier.
Yeah, and so now the city ofTrier is being inundated with
witches, along with those whoare accused and sitting in jail,
with witches along with thosewho are accused and sitting in
jail.
So then they start arrestingmore people, because they think

(25:30):
those people have been areescapees from other places or
runaways from other places.
So 1582.
Witchcraft at that point intime at least in Germany, was
considered an exceptional crime,which meant that things could
be sped up.
So you don't have to have inother words, they didn't have to

(25:51):
have the typical trial that younormally would, and the whole
procedure, from arrest toaccusation to trial to execution
, would take one week.
In many cases they wouldn'teven hear witnesses, they would

(26:11):
just interrogate the accused.
Yeah, as we all know, for mostcrimes you prove guilt by
hearing witnesses and withphysical evidence, but magic is
invisible, so those rulesobviously don't apply, and so
that is where torture comes in.

Speaker 2 (26:31):
Nothing applies, just whatever they say.
Yes, exactly.

Speaker 1 (26:36):
So trials, however, do take place in an established
court overseen by a judge who,in these cases, would be all
powerful.
The judge in trier is dietrichflada, who is described as being
ruthless and unforgiving.
Now, having said that, Igoogled it.

(26:58):
I mean this is coming from anactual scholar and the googling
came from wikipedia, so take itas you will, but according to
wiki and whatever scholars theyused, this dude went really soft
on witches.
Yeah, like in terms of torture,but then he went soft on
torture yeah, compared, comparedto others, just a little

(27:22):
torture.
Uh, compared to others, yes,apparently.
But then this scholar was likeno, he didn't, he was ruthless,
he was unforgiving and he wasalso a money lender and he
really was not nice to peoplewho owed him money, and this is
kind of like they're justgetting started on witches,
right.

Speaker 2 (27:41):
So this is kind of setting the standards.
This is setting the precedents,yeah, which is right, so this
is kind of setting the standardsand then later on maybe they're
like well, let's build on thatfoundation and ramp it up even
more.

Speaker 1 (27:55):
Well, it certainly became much more popular and a
lot of this, though you know,what's crazy is it's not just
the actual church that's doingthis Public.
I mean, this stuff.
This is the age of the printingpress, right?
And so all of these thingsbecome so popular and people are
really afraid of these things,so they ask for witch trials.
And they demand witch trials,like even when judges and things

(28:16):
are like I don't know aboutthis.
The people are like you betterfucking do it or we're going to
burn you too.

Speaker 2 (28:22):
Yeah, you know so it's nuts, but what I was saying
is that maybe things got evenmore intense later on, right,
because they took thosetechniques and then they made
them even worse or built on them.
You know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (28:41):
I know what you mean them.
You know what I mean, I knowwhat you mean, but so, like all
of this, none of none of thescholars here said any.
They used any other tortureother than the one that I'm
gonna talk about.
Okay let's hear about it.
Uh, in salem they did use oneother version of torture, but I
mean they didn't really go intoa whole lot of detail, but but

(29:03):
yeah, nobody would have seenanything wrong with it being
ramped up, because they reallybelieved that these people
weren't people.

Speaker 2 (29:12):
Well, this was a pretty tortury time, sure Right,
mm-hmm, not just witches, ofcourse no.
But like other kinds ofcircumstances.

Speaker 1 (29:25):
Yeah.
We also have to remember,though, that a lot of the things
that we think people used attorture actually never.
There's no evidence that theyactually really happened, and
I'm not talking just about thewitches, but, like a lot of
people think, about the ironmaiden but there's no actual
evidence of that.
The only, the preferred tortureis the one I'm going to talk

(29:49):
about, because it was easy andvery effective.

Speaker 2 (29:51):
Yeah, by no evidence you mean like nobody is like
writing about Iron Maidens andbeing like we used the Iron
Maiden.

Speaker 1 (29:58):
Yeah, like there's absolutely no record that an
Iron Maiden was used, but themain torture would have been
effective enough.

Speaker 2 (30:08):
yeah, um, that reminds me of that scene from
bill and ted's bogus journeywhere they're like they like
travel or whatever, to medievaltimes and they get in some
trouble with some, some knightsor whatever, but of course
they're complete dumbasses andright.
So they get arrested andthey're like put them in the

(30:29):
iron maiden and they're likeexcellent, right and then
they're like torture them yeah,and they're like bogus, do you
remember?

Speaker 1 (30:42):
that vaguely yeah it's been a really long time
since I saw, since I saw that,but yeah, I should go back to
those movies.
We should, we should, okay.
So so he very much, this vladavery much believed in witchcraft
and he was present at thequestioning and the torture and

(31:02):
he also would look for bettermeasures to bring out
confessions, and so that kind ofgoes against what Wiki was
saying.

Speaker 2 (31:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (31:12):
And by better, of course, I don't mean kinder or
less tortury.
Not many trial records survive,but one is of a washerwoman
named Margarita Braun.
She was accused of being awitch in public, in the
marketplace, for everyone tohear.
So if you are ever going to beaccused of being a witch, you do

(31:32):
not want it to be in a placewhere everybody yeah here's,
here's you being accused,because there's no getting out
of that.

Speaker 2 (31:39):
You cannot say no, you're wrong, I'm not a witch
then everybody's gonna be likewell, I heard she's a witch
exactly, and there's, there'snothing.

Speaker 1 (31:47):
There's no way to defend yourself.
You are, for all intents ofpurposes, a witch, yeah, so
don't piss anybody off who wouldaccuse you ever?
Yeah, she was arrested and,poor lady, tortured seven times
but didn't confess and I willtalk about the torture later on.

(32:08):
So flotta steps in and subjectsher to even more torture and
apparently this time it wasenough for her to confess.
But the only thing sheconfesses is to a venial sin,
meaning a sin that's not reallya sin.

Speaker 2 (32:25):
Yeah, so what's the method of torture that they're
using for these I'm going totalk about?

Speaker 1 (32:32):
it later.
Okay, so she confesses toeating meat in broth.
Uh-oh, which, as a Catholic andI think she did it she admitted
to doing it on a fast day,which you're not supposed to
have.
You can have broth, meat broth,but you can't have meat in
broth.
A good portion of trial recordis lost, so it's unknown if she

(32:55):
was executed or not.
Some think she was just becauseof the amount and severity of
the torture that she endured.
Obviously eating meat in brothon a fast day is a sin worthy of
execution.
Well, I doubt that it wasbecause they executed her
because of that, but it wouldjust Well, obviously she's just

(33:19):
lying because she's a witch.
Yeah exactly.
Accusations and trials continueto spread across Trier, hundreds
are interrogated andconfessions grow wild.
And then a conspiracy emergesthey believe witches are
gathering in large numbersBecause some of these people are

(33:41):
just letting their imaginationsrun wild, these people who are
confessing, and so they believewitches are gathering in large
numbers, and they have toexplain how witches could get to
witches' Sabbaths in largenumbers at night.
And that is where we get theidea of the flying witches.

Speaker 2 (33:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (34:00):
At these Sabbaths, it is believed that they are
worshipipping the devil, ofcourse, having sex with the
devil, sacrificing children,eating babies.

Speaker 2 (34:10):
I mean, you'd think, if anybody's good at sex, it's
the devil Right.

Speaker 1 (34:14):
That's why I'm saying it sounded like fun and
plotting their acts of harmagainst the communities around
them.
And the idea that there is awitch's Sabbath suggests there's
a big group of witches outthere.
And if that's true, then it'snot enough for the accused to
admit that they were there.
They now have to also say whoelse was there.

(34:35):
And suddenly the accused arestarting to see prominent
citizens at these Sabbaths.
And then we have children'stestimony being allowed in.
For example, one teenager whowas giving witness about witches
claimed that he was taken toone of these Sabbaths and saw

(34:58):
Flotta, mr Judge, himself.
Other witnesses emerged to tellof his terrible deeds Suddenly
confessed.
Witches are saying Flotta wasthe master of the Sabbath.
They say that he's making moneyoff the bad weather.
So again, witches control theweather and they are the ones
making the crops fail.
And that works to the advantageof Flotta and men like him,

(35:22):
because they've got stocks instores of grain and are selling
those stores of grain at a highprofit.
Yes, sometimes it doesn't payto be rich.
Flotta was a big supporter ofthe prince elector who in turn
didn't let the trial againstFlotta begin.
But then in 1588, a commissionis established to look for

(35:47):
circumstantial evidence for allthe denunciations made against
flotta.
While he hasn't had a trial yet, he has pretty much already
been convicted in the court ofpublic opinion.
Yeah, and then?
What really made things bad forhim, though, is that there were
accusations that he agreed totry and murder his master, the

(36:08):
prince-elector, while making hisdeal with the devil Again his
master, the prince-elector.
Bad luck for Flotta was not invery good health at the time,
and no one could figure out why.
The answer, then, must be thatsomeone was trying to kill him
through bewitchment, and sinceFlotta made that pact with the

(36:30):
devil, then he must go on trial.
He and all the accused wouldlikely have been tortured using
the popular method that waspreferred at the time, called
the strapato.
Hands are tied behind your back, a rope is tied around your
wrist, and the rope would be putthrough a hook in the ceiling,
and someone on the other endwould pull the rope.

(36:51):
This method can cause tears inthe ligaments and tendons, which
would be excruciating.
On top of that, though, youmight also be beaten in that
position, you might havefractures and broken bones, and
you also might be beaten on yourhead at the same time, and you

(37:11):
could be left like that forhours, for days, for weeks, and
he's tortured like that formonths until he finally broke
and he confesses.
He confessed to meeting with thedevil, having sex with the
devil.
He made a pact with the devilas well and was given the

(37:31):
ability to use magic to his ownadvantage.
He admitted to having plannedto kill people and to make
people sick and he said he hadgone to the Sabbath and accepted
his role as master of thewitches I'm sorry, not of the
witches of witches.
September 16th, 1589, theverdict comes in.

(37:52):
He is found guilty ofwitchcraft and sentenced to
death.
Now again, there's fragmentsand stuff, so they don't really
know how he was executed.
But one source says that he wasburned at the stake.
But again, nobody really knowsif he actually was burned at the
stake, because pretty mucheverybody were killed by other

(38:17):
means, usually strangling orbeheading, before their bodies
were burned.
The burning part would havehappened.
Yeah, and I'll talk about why,I think, in a minute.
The reason for burning witchesis because witches are not just
criminals, remember.
They're heretics and it wasbelieved at the time that the
bodies of heretics were actuallyunclean and could bring

(38:39):
misfortune upon the community.
So, alive or dead, a heretic'scorpse needed to be burned in
order to remove the contagionfrom the community.
So the wench hunt did not endwith Flotta's death.
Hunt did not end with Flotta'sdeath.

(39:02):
The hunts continued for 10years and it is estimated that
between 800 and 1,000 peoplewere executed for witchcraft in
the electorate of Trier.
The prince-elector becameconcerned about the fact that
the trials had gone on for solong and that men and members of
the social and political eliteswere being accused.
In 1591, he issues an orderconcerning witch-hunting

(39:24):
committees to try and rein intheir activities, but not to end
their activities.
He mainly wanted to bring themunder the control of
representatives of thegovernment.
However, he wasn't particularlyparticularly successful in that

(39:45):
.
Yeah, now, things eased in the1590s as the pressures on the
economies died down right.
Weather started getting alittle better, crops didn't die
as much, there's less bad thingsto blame Less bad things, yes.
However, it's important to note,of course, that the belief was

(40:07):
still there, right, and therewere still going to be witch
hunts all around Europe.
So the witch I keep sayingwinch.
The witch hunts of Trier, ofcourse, influenced other witch
hunts.
Again, this is the age of theprinting press, so all kinds of
printed material on the subjectwould be spread widely and

(40:28):
translated into numerouslanguages.
This is really important,mainly because it is the
beginning of the witch hunts,because it is the beginning of
the witch hunts.
Now we're going to go a littlemore than a century into the
future, and we're going to go tothe Americas, specifically to
Salem, massachusetts.

(40:51):
So Salem was a small Puritanvillage in Massachusetts.
Puritans were a dissenting sectof the Anglican church who fled
England in the early 1600s.
Of course, there's a little bit, it's a little bit more
complicated and stuff than that,but that's all you really need

(41:13):
to understand.
So Salem, though, was acongregation-less church,
meaning that the people therehave a belief that the
congregation itself should beable to shape how the church
works.
So they have the power to electa new minister to lead their
congregation, and they nominateSamuel Parris, who arrives in

(41:37):
Salem in 1589 from Barbados.
Salem Village, which is wheremost of this is going to happen,
was kind of an arm of Salemtown, and here's where we get
some classism coming in.

Speaker 2 (41:55):
So, samuel, Parrish, parrish or Parris Parris.
Like Perry, was he like a slaveowner?

Speaker 1 (42:04):
They didn't say but hang on, salem Village was kind
of an arm of Salem Town andSalem Town is going to be the
more prosperous of thecommunities.
They are fancier and they areadopting the more refined things
, and these are going to bethings that Puritans generally

(42:26):
tend to stick their noses up atRight.
So they are seen by some asbeing less godly than their
Puritan neighbors in SalemVillage, less godly than there
are Puritan neighbors in SalemVillage.
Salem Village is fractious andis not really the place for an

(42:49):
ambitious minister like Paris.
He immediately begins to pullthe godliest people around him
to join his special congregationof pious villagers.
To join his specialcongregation of pious villagers,
paris gives very impassionedspeeches and he wants to prove

(43:12):
himself and his utility.
Then, in January 1692, a bunchof children have been
experimenting with magic.
Specifically, they were doingsomething known as the egg and
glass.
So that is where you take thewhite of the egg and drip it
into a glass or bowl of waterand look at the shapes it makes.
You would then ask God whatshape your future would take and

(43:33):
you would see it in the eggwhite.
See it in the egg white.
So these girls see a shape of acoffin and they begin to feel
worried.
After all, this kind ofdivination was believed to be
demonic.
It's unknown if Paris'sdaughter and niece, Betty and
Abigail, actually took part inthe rituals, but shortly

(44:01):
afterwards Betty starts showingstrange symptoms of what is
often referred to as affliction.

Speaker 2 (44:03):
That's all.
They call it a ritual and it'slike, just like middle school
girl shit yep, this afflictionspreads to abigail.

Speaker 1 (44:11):
first the girls say their muscles hurt and then they
start screaming.
Paris calls the doctor who saysI don't know, can't figure it
out.
Dude must be supernatural, andby supernatural he means of
course witchcraft.
It's not out of the blue.
I mean there is precedence.
There had been many cases inEurope of bewitchment and the

(44:34):
girl's symptoms seem to followthe model.
Once it was accepted that itwas bewitchment.

Speaker 2 (44:39):
Wait, what's the model?
Do you have the model of likethe symptoms of bewitchment?

Speaker 1 (44:46):
Yeah, the other young children who say they were
bewitched had muscle aches andwere screaming.

Speaker 2 (44:51):
So muscle aches and screaming is the model I mean.
I'm sure there were otherthings.

Speaker 1 (44:56):
I'm sure there were other things, but what I said
it's not like period cramps.
I mean, that's what I would gowith.
But yeah but I mean when I sayscreaming I don't just mean like
they're like groaning, I thinkit means like it was terrifying
screaming.
Um, there's some other thingsthey start to start to do.
Once it was accepted that itwas bewitchment, the adults

(45:20):
asked the girls who caused theirillness, and the girls accused
three women, sarah Good andSarah Osborne, who are two
middle-aged women who areunpopular in the community, and
of course Tituba.
And of course Tituba, paris'sservant, originally from South
America.
Now, possibly she was a slave.

(45:44):
She was probably a slave atsome point in her life.
She's described sometimes asbeing a Black woman and
sometimes as an indigenous woman.
Yeah, so either way, bothindigenous people and black

(46:05):
people were enslaved at thistime.
Yeah, or she could have beenboth.
Then the Putnam family began toshow symptoms.
Now, the Putmans were closefamily friends of the Parrises
and they also accused the samewomen as Betty and Abigail.
Damn it, betty Yep, in March of1692,.

(46:30):
The accused are brought intothe magistrate and a confession,
of course, is needed beforethey're sent to trial.
Tituba begins by denying theaccusations, but of course she
is a woman of color in a roomfull of white men.

Speaker 2 (46:48):
So of course they're not going to believe a damn word
.

Speaker 1 (46:51):
she says Right and they're already going to be
predisposed to believe she is awitch.
Predisposed to believe she is awitch.
During the questioning she doeseventually say that she hurt
the children.
She said the devil came to herand said she must hurt the
children.
She said the devil threatenedto kill her, to tear her to

(47:11):
pieces, to behead her.
The magistrates then questionthe Sarahs and while they're
questioning the women, they alsoquestion Sarah Good's daughter,
dorothy, about her mother beinga witch.
Dorothy was four years old ohbaby.

(47:31):
She says her mother is a witchand then says that she is also a
witch.

Speaker 2 (47:37):
Oh, no, yeah so the.
No, yeah so the women.

Speaker 1 (47:40):
She's just a little baby.
The women and Dorothy are sentoff to Boston to await trial.
They are kept in chains, andthey are kept there for months
before their trial.
It turns out that Boston'scharter has expired.
It turns out that Boston'scharter has expired, and so they

(48:01):
have to.
The governor and some otherdudes have to go to England to
renew the charter.
Since the governor has gone toEngland to get this new charter,

(48:21):
it's legal, legal.
It needs the charter, so thelegal process can still function
.
So, because the charter isexpired and because the governor
is no longer in massachusetts,they can't hold a trial for the
accused until the governorreturns.
And of course, this is 1692, soit's going to be a bit yeah.
Those months, though, give timefor the afflictions to spread

(48:43):
and for community concerns togrow.
Questions can still be asked ofsuspects, and the imprisoned
women begin to mention otherswho might be involved.
There's no mention of tortureof these women, not in this
account or any of the accountsI've read, but jail at this

(49:05):
point in time still would havebeen a horrendous place to be,
so you would probably agree orsay anything Right.
Months pass, and the villagersbecome more and more convinced
that there are witches amongstthem, and the girls make further
accusations.
And on top of that you haveparis, who's already kind of

(49:27):
inflammatory preacher, preachingeven more about witchcraft to
his congregation.
Obviously his daughter andniece are afflicted, and during
all of this more girls becomeafflicted.
And during all of this, moregirls become afflicted.
The imprisoned women keep-.

Speaker 2 (49:42):
Are they going to imprison all the women in the
town?

Speaker 1 (49:46):
The imprisoned women keep getting questions and they
keep telling stories of thewitchcraft they committed and
they name other people in thevillage.
And these new people name otherpeople.
Paris asks the previousminister to come and see what he
thinks he visits and one of thegirls starts running around the

(50:07):
room screaming, tries to openthe window and fly out.
He writes an account, whichthen lends credence to the
accusation.
So now you don't just haveyoung girls doing things, but
you have an established personthat is respected within their
community, that is givingcredence to the accusations.

(50:30):
So at first, those accused are,of course, going to be the
outsiders, the people who arenot popular within the village.
There are people who aredifferent, who go against the
norm, who are generally disliked.
Right, sarah Good was homeless.
Was she a?

Speaker 2 (50:50):
widow.

Speaker 1 (50:51):
I can't remember.
I'm sure she was so pretty muchif you stepped outside of the
norms at all and you were awoman especially.
God help you.
So as time goes on, though,more prominent people are
accused, like Rebecca Nurse, whois really a very big surprise

(51:13):
because she's well-known andwell-respected in the village
and she's also seen as being avery good and pious person.
Like if you lined up all thepeople in the village and said,
pick out the witches, she wouldbe one of the last people you
would pick.

Speaker 2 (51:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (51:30):
Right.
So it's kind of a surprise tofolks.
So we have the class divisionbetween Salem Village and Salem
Town, which kind of also has areligious divide, or at least
one thinks they're morereligious than the other.
Then we have Paris, who reallyintensifies the fractions and

(51:51):
resentments between the villageand the town.
And then on top of that you'vegot division in salem village
between the putnams and theporters, who are both prominent
families, uh, but both familiesliving in the village, not the
town, uh.

Speaker 2 (52:09):
So the putnams, and, sorry if I'm mistaken, the
village is the one that's themore like stringent side they
think that they're better andthey're also poorer.

Speaker 1 (52:20):
Yeah, yes, the porters and their allies are
politically linked to Salem Town.
The Putnams are more linked toParis and much more
old-fashioned in their emphasison Puritan godliness.
Godliness the accused tended tocome from the porter network,

(52:43):
while the afflicted were moreclosely linked to the paris
putnam faction.
On top of that, we have fear ofthe dispossessed indigenous
peoples.
Of course they've been kickedoff their land.
There's famine.
So here's an issue I had kindof with the video they go.
The scholar was like they don'tknow how to grow their crops

(53:08):
anymore because the indigenouspeople aren't helping them,
which fair, but I mean they'vebeen there for several decades.
So yeah, they do.
And second, it's the little iceage.
That's why they're having afamine.
Whatever, either they're havinga famine because they don't
know what crops to grow orthey're having a famine because
of bad weather have you seen thehorror film the witch?

Speaker 2 (53:31):
no, it really showcases like like religious
extremism and I think it me.
One of the things I reallyenjoy about it is it kind of
showcases the horror ofPuritanism.
There's a scene where theirbaby is missing and they're

(53:53):
searching.
The father and his son aresearching in the woods, they're
looking for the baby and hislike son are like searching in
the woods.
They're like looking for thebaby and like the, the son is
like asking the father like ifthe baby will go to heaven and
like the father cannot tell himthat the baby will go to heaven,
right?

Speaker 1 (54:11):
yeah and to me I'm like that's horrifying, yeah you
know, and anyway it's reallygood it had to be terrifying to
be a Puritan I try to bring thisup to my students all the time
is that you did not know if youwere going to go to heaven or
hell, and hell was a very realand terrifying place to Puritans

(54:32):
, to everybody at the time, butespecially to Puritans, in a way
that it isn't really to us, toeverybody at the time, but
especially to Puritans in a waythat it isn't really to us.

Speaker 2 (54:47):
I mean to believers today.
Yes, it's a real place, but thedifference is just
astronomically different.
The punishment that they'reputting themselves through every
moment so that they can beworthy.

Speaker 1 (54:53):
Yeah, you didn't know if you were going to heaven or
hell, but you had to live yourlife as if you were going to
heaven and every little thingyou did could be considered a
sin.
Yeah, it's very terrifying.
And then I also have toemphasize to my students that
this is the new world, like it'sonly been I don't know six or

(55:18):
seven decades since there's beenEuropeans, english Europeans,
in this part of town, in thispart of the country, and so like
nothing is built up.
The woods are deep and dark andthick and you are surrounded by
tribes of indigenous people whoare not really wanting to be

(55:39):
your friend because you havebeen dicks to them I mean legit,
Legit been dicks to them andthey legitimately have a reason
to dislike you.
But you're also constantlyterrified of your town being
invaded because there are rumorsof that happening.
Plus, there is actually a war.

(56:00):
There are predatory animals aswell, Like you can like.
There are literally wolvesright outside your window, you
know, and there are.
There is a war, as I wrote downhere, just to the north of them,
Right?
So I mean, this is a scary,scary, scary time and place to
live.
And, on top of all the realworld things, you have all of

(56:24):
those supernatural beliefs, Likeit's not like God's up in
heaven somewhere and justhanging out and you know the
devil's in hell somewherehanging out Like it's in your
face, it's visceral and like atany second you could either be a
victim or fall.
Pray to the devil.
Yeah, you know, and you justdon't know I mean, what was like

(56:48):
?

Speaker 2 (56:49):
anxiety and stress, saying about whatever life is,
whatever lonely, horrible,whatever nasty bird is short, I
forget exactly, but like yeah, Imean that is what life was like
.
Yeah, it was really horribleand it was really hard and yeah,
and it was short and, likethere was disease, there were

(57:09):
people trying to kill you.

Speaker 1 (57:11):
Yeah, there was animals trying to kill you, yeah
people didn't know what to eat.

Speaker 2 (57:16):
They would eat like poison, fucking plants and yeah,
like yeah and yeah.

Speaker 1 (57:22):
So it's just you were , if you were so, adding all of
the the real world things,adding on top of that that
you're a puritan and so you'rein constant fear of your soul's
damnation, your eternaldamnation, you must have been
riddled with anxiety and fear 247.

(57:43):
So it's kind of like no wonderthis shit happened you know, um,
okay, so anyway, there was awar to the north and so some of
the accusers were probablyrefugees.
Weirdly, not the accused, butthe accusers were refugees.
All of these factors arefeeding into the division in

(58:04):
Salem and perpetuating this moodof suspicion.
Between January and May, thereare 81 people accused of
witchcraft, 49 of them areimprisoned witchcraft 49 of them
are imprisoned.
Then the governor arrives backin massachusetts with a new

(58:25):
charter and therefore the courtscan open up.
He is a bit busy though.
He's got war and shit to dealwith, so he doesn't directly
deal with the accusations comingout of sal, but he does open a
court to deal especially withthe accused, the imprisoned.
It's called the Court of Oyerand Terminer.

(58:47):
In June of 1692, the trials wereheld in the meeting house in
Salem Town.
So it's church, basically, andit's packed, it's noisy and it's
hot and the accused have todefend themselves.
They do not have lawyers.
And then on top of that, theyinsist that the afflicted be

(59:10):
brought in.
And so they're brought in as agroup.
These uh, children and pre-teenteenage girls, uh, you know,
like writhing and whimpering andbabbling and they have fits and
they make new accusations whilethey're sitting there.
They'd say things like she'sattacking me, she's hitting me,

(59:32):
any time that the accused movedeven a little bit.
Those who confessed tended to beseen as remorseful.
But even if they confessed sotheir lives would be saved if
they confessed yeah.
However, they would be publiclytainted, meaning their lives

(59:54):
are never going to be back tonormal.
They will always be an outcast.
They will be judged guilty andagain, but not executed.
Tituba is brought in and bringsup the idea that there is a
network of witches all workingtogether.
She was found guilty and jailedand as people are accused and

(01:00:15):
confess which again confessingspares them the number of
suspects and convicted witchesgrows, right.
I mean, the people are smart,they see this, they're in court,
they're like oh, she confessed,got spared, I'm accused, I'm
going to confess and get spared,right, and I'll just point the
finger at somebody else.
Then the court admits spectralevidence, which is evidence

(01:00:40):
based on the visions of theaccusers.
So it's based on the idea thatthe devil has the power to cause
hallucinations in people'sminds.
So evidence not visible tospect but is visible to the
accusers are admissible and youcan't disprove it.

(01:01:03):
Seems legit, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:01:07):
Again, we should definitely have some modern
trials based on this kind ofevidence.
Oh yeah, it seems very sound,it sure does Again.

Speaker 1 (01:01:16):
Those who confess are jailed but are spared execution
, and the first person to befound guilty is Bridget Bishop,
who pled not guilty.
She was condemned to die.
You're sitting here taking aselfie.
I think you are a bit drunk.

(01:01:47):
I better be after two of these.
The first person to be foundguilty is bridget bishop because
she pled not guilty.
She was condemned to die butmaintained her innocence all the
way to the gallows and she washanged, and it should be noted.
The main reason people bring upBridget Bishop, at least in
this particular episode, isbecause so, generally speaking,

(01:02:12):
whether you were guilty or notand you were to be executed, you
were supposed to look contriteand remorseful.
Bridget bishop was like fuckthat yeah and um, it freaked
people out and that day a judgeresigns.

(01:02:34):
So things are not going wellright.
June 29th, sarah good isbrought in with four other women
, including rebecca nurse.
All five women are found guiltyand sentenced to death.
They are executed on july 19th.
Reportedly, sarah good, uponbeing asked by the assistant

(01:02:58):
minister to confess to save hersoul, while she's on the gallows
, she turned on him and thecrowd and the judges and said
You're a liar, I'm no more awitch than you are a wizard, and
if you take my life away, godwill give you blood to drink.
So at this point, in case youkeep in score, six women have

(01:03:20):
been executed.
And then Cotton Mather getsinvolved.
Sort of, he was a wellrespected senior minister, a
university intellectual, and wasconsidered an authority on
witches.
He and other respectedministers hear about this shit

(01:03:41):
going down in salem and theyhear about spectral evidence.
And so they write to the courtand basically say look, dudes,
the spectral evidence stuff useextreme caution.
Don't want to tell you what todo, but, like you know, maybe
chill a little, right, but keepdoing what you're doing.
So, uh, because of cottonmathers kind of questioning

(01:04:06):
things a little bit, we start toget some people also beginning
to question things andquestioning why the accusers
were accusing who they wereaccusing Right, and so this is
the beginning of some doubtabout the validity of the

(01:04:27):
testimony of spectral evidence.
No, no, I know, how dare they.
That was my favorite kind ofevidence.
Right August 19th, another fivepeople are hanged, including a
former minister of Salem, georgeBurroughs.
He was Paris's predecessor andhe is said to have given a

(01:04:59):
really impassioned speech whichhe closes and this is most
important with a perfectrecitation of the Lord's Prayer.
So this is one of those teststhat they would generally give
to witches, because there was astereotype that a witch couldn't
get through the Lord's Prayerwithout tripping up at some
point.
So the fact that GeorgeBurroughs could give a perfect
recitation.

Speaker 2 (01:05:19):
Well, he's a priest?

Speaker 1 (01:05:20):
Of course he can Well , yeah, but he's supposed to be
a witch, yeah, so a witchwouldn't be able to.
They physically wouldn't beable to, because they're not
godly enough.

Speaker 2 (01:05:33):
Yes, but of course that's nonsense.

Speaker 1 (01:05:35):
Well, yeah, excuse me , it's important that he is able
to do that.

Speaker 2 (01:05:38):
Well, did they say oh my gosh, obviously this man is
not a witch, no, just wait.

Speaker 1 (01:05:44):
So this is going to create some doubts to some of
the onlookers and the crowdstarts to almost riot and they
shout for the execution to bestopped Because obviously they
must have made a mistake.
A witch would not be able tosay the lord's perfectly.
But cotton mather, who's therehanging out wanting to watch all

(01:06:06):
these executions?
Uh, he lectures the crowd, inwhich he says these people are
indeed witches and there'snothing wrong with the ex, with,
uh, the judgment and theexecution should continue.
Well, that tears it.
Well it does.
The crowd is like oh well, it'scaught, mather, let's we accept

(01:06:28):
your authority and theexecutions proceed.
And now we're at 11 dead.
As doubts grow, some villagersstart to take a stand, but that
proves deadly.
One such person was Giles Gorey.
He refused to make a plea athis trial, so he doesn't plead

(01:06:51):
guilty or not guilty At thispoint in time.
If a person refused to plead,they could be subjected to
torture to compel them to do so.
From September 18th to 19th heis laid out and a board is put
on top of him and they placewhat is said in the documentary

(01:07:13):
is heavy weights, but it'sactually like really heavy
stones.

Speaker 2 (01:07:15):
Is that that badass?
More weight dude?
Yes, so he, that dude, is mylow key hero.

Speaker 1 (01:07:23):
So he has heavy, heavy, heavy stones piled on top
of him and he is essentiallysuffocated to death.
Yeah, crushed to death as well,I would say yeah, crushed to
death as well.
I would say he reportedly issaid to have said, when asked

(01:07:48):
what he had to say to the court,he's reported to have said more
weight, mr Corey, real kingshit.
Yeah, mr Corey has his revenge,though sort of because, because
he didn't confess and wasn'tfound guilty, his estate went to
his son-in-laws instead of theauthorities, and also not that
it uh does anything, but becausehe did not plea and he did not

(01:08:09):
have a trial, his execution wasunlawful didn't stop anybody
consequence?
no, of course not.
But I mean, yeah, there wouldbe questions.
I would think so.
Uh, we've skipped a few people,but now we're at 16 dead.
So just days after giles cory'sdeath, his wife, martha, was

(01:08:31):
found guilty of witchcraft andhung of.
Of course, again, we skip a fewmore people.
Witchcraft is obviously afamily affair.
Of course we skip a few morepeople and end on September 22,
1692, with 20 executed In justseven months.
I shouldn't say just sevenmonths.
In seven months, 185 people wereaccused, 59 went to trial, 19

(01:08:54):
were hanged, one was pressed todeath.
A number of others died inprison, including an infant that
one of the Sarahs had while inprison Aw, baby.
So Dorothy, sarah Good's littlegirl, who had said that both
she and Sarah were a witch, issaid to have gone insane by the
time she was allowed out ofprison at age five.

(01:09:16):
Is said to have gone insane bythe time she was allowed out of
prison at age five.
And it doesn't end in Salem.
All over Massachusetts,including in Boston, people were
being accused of witchcraft.
The witch hunts also spreadacross New England and they
continue to attract theattention of religious experts,
including Increase Mather,father of Cotton.

(01:09:37):
Mather.
Increase.
Mather writes a letter toexpress some of his doubts and
says that maybe some of theevidence and accusations don't
really carry the weight they didHis father's name was Increase.

Speaker 2 (01:09:49):
Yes, we think that today's names are bad.
I know, and some of them are,but I'm just saying that
Increase is not a great name.

Speaker 1 (01:09:59):
No, so Increase calls on the governor to come back
from wherever he is to sortthings out.
The governor really respectsIncrease Mather, and what he
reads in the letter disturbs him.
And there's also a rumor thatsomeone has accused the
governor's wife of being a witch.
Can't have that.

(01:10:20):
So in other words, he's got atleast one good reason to end the
crisis immediately.
Yeah, and on october 29th, thegovernor believes public opinion
has shifted enough to call ahalt to the proceedings and
dismantles the court.
The people in jail are freed,and that includes Tituba.

(01:10:41):
Paris feels he's failed as aminister.
Oh, tituba gets free.
Yeah, nice, paris feels he'sfailed as a minister.
Families of some of the Suck itParis, families of some of the
executed, actually managed toget him out of the village and
out of his ministry.
As for Salem itself, thecommunity is left with neighbors

(01:11:05):
who are not speaking to eachother.
Yeah, I bet.
The church structure has fallenapart and the support swings
towards the family of theaccused rather than the accusers
.
Obviously, salem has changedforever.
In 1697, the general courtsorders a day of prayer and

(01:11:26):
fasting to reflect back on thewitch trials, and maybe the same
year one of the judges writes apublic apology for his role in
the trials.
In 1752, salem rebrands itselfit is now called Danvers, which
caused division and friction inthe community.

(01:11:49):
And then, in the 20th century,the Salem Witch Trials are
revisited.
In 1957, the state ofMassachusetts apologizes for the
trials.
And a lot of this and theinterest in the Salem Witch
Trials partly happened becauseof the play the Crucible, which

(01:12:12):
is, yes, technically about theSalem witch trials but is also
about a more modern witch huntthe Joseph McCarthy-led
anti-communist crusade.

Speaker 2 (01:12:22):
I have seen the crucible, but a long time ago,
when I was like I was like afreshman, I think in high school
.
I think I saw it.

Speaker 1 (01:12:30):
Yeah, historians have been trying ever since to
explain the Salem witch trials,and the explanations run from
the girls were simply awful.
They were lying and they knewfull well what they were doing.
So that's one end, and it goesall the way to things like the
ergot fungus, to mass hysteria.

(01:12:50):
And while the girls have someculpability, putting the blame
on them removes it from the menwho led the trials and gave the
judgments, as one scholar says.
That's not me saying, it,that's a.
I forget the scholar's name,though I didn't write it down.
They of course, were the actualadults in the room and they had

(01:13:11):
way more power than the girlsdid I mean, even if they come
you know some kids come to youwith a bullshit story.

Speaker 2 (01:13:19):
Yeah, it's your job as an adult to be like okay,
sweetie run along now instead ofbeing like oh my god, this is a
really serious situation.
Yeah, time to put a bunch ofwomen on trial.

Speaker 1 (01:13:32):
Yeah like but I mean, of course, we.
We have to remember, though,that they really believe this
stuff.
Yeah, to them it's gonna.
It's a real tangible,terrifying thing, and it was
their duty as good christians toweed it out, and they would
have no reason not to disbelievethe girls, since there was

(01:13:54):
already precedence for what washappening to them very true.
We talk about living in whateverlike a post-fact environment or
whatever, and this was like apre-fact right they had there's
no science, there's no, uh,people don't know why they're
sick, they don't know why thecrops are.
I mean, they really only havesupernatural explanations.

(01:14:17):
Right, which is going to be thebible, and and the witch and
witchcraft, and thou shalt notsuffer a witch to live I mean I
wouldn't say that the girls haveno culpability.

Speaker 2 (01:14:35):
Obviously they do have some.

Speaker 1 (01:14:36):
Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 2 (01:14:39):
At the same time, yeah, there is definitely a
point that they are not adults.
They don't have mature brains.

Speaker 1 (01:14:46):
No, and they're not the ones who called the courts
and stuff.
So, no, the blame should not befully put on them.
It should be put on, I think,sexism, religious fanaticism,
yep, and lack of science, yeah,yep, okay, so is that all we

(01:15:12):
have?
We talked a lot about it duringthe thing, so is there anything
else we want to say?

Speaker 2 (01:15:17):
About witch trials Any.

Speaker 1 (01:15:18):
Yeah, a lot about it during the thing.
So is there anything else wewant to say About witch trials?
Any?

Speaker 2 (01:15:22):
Yeah, I guess.
So About the crime.
Oh my God, shit, bullshit.

Speaker 1 (01:15:26):
Yeah, it's bullshit for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:15:28):
Yeah, it is interesting.
I do think you have a pointright when things are going bad
right.
If you do think you have apoint right when things are
going bad right, then we seem tohave this human tendency to
want to blame somebody for it,and that hasn't gone away.

Speaker 1 (01:15:48):
No, it hasn't.
We find scapegoats all the time.

Speaker 2 (01:15:50):
Yep Mm-hmm and you know Communists.

Speaker 1 (01:15:55):
Jews whatever you know, you can put it on anybody
you want Immigrants trans peopletrans people gay people, women,
yep.

Speaker 2 (01:16:06):
So it's easy to be like, oh look at those idiots.
But yeah, even with this levelof information, even with
scientific information yeah, youknow, with cognitive dissidence
, right, and such people'sopinions are difficult to shift

(01:16:30):
they don't want to shift.
Yeah, and I think, right, thestudies show a little tipsy.

(01:16:58):
So if I'm not making a reallygood point, yeah, that they just
kind of mentally make up anexcuse that that information is
not good.

Speaker 1 (01:17:03):
Have you read or watched anything this week?

Speaker 2 (01:17:07):
So I just watched Deep Space Nine.
I've been meaning to watch likesome horror movies, like I want
to watch some horror movies,but I just haven't had the
energy.
I've still been sick, yeah, andyeah, I have gotten more energy
the past few days, yeah,although now I'm like super

(01:17:29):
congested, yeah, and so it'slike I I couldn't talk for like
five days or something.

Speaker 1 (01:17:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:17:36):
Like I had no voice, yeah, and now I'm finally
getting my voice back, althoughI still have a bit of this like
spasmy cough.
And now it's like today, all ofa sudden I have this new
symptom of congestion and it'slike what the fuck?
Yeah, because I've been havingsome kind of like cold and flu
symptoms for like the past 20days and it almost seems like

(01:18:00):
one symptom at a time.
It's like you're going to enjoylike one symptom at a time for
like four or five days, and thenyou're going to have a new
symptom, kind of.
Thing which is really fuckingawful, and I just wish it would
end.
I have I read nestlings.
I read uh, let's see what elseI read that we I don't know what

(01:18:25):
did we talk about last timewhen we talked about the ray
rivera book?
That's because I talked aboutyeah, yeah, um, I read the
terror.
Did we talk about that?
we didn't talk about anythingseparate it did not have yetis
in it.
Oh, that blows.
Yeah, apparently the the onethat is supposed to be yeti-ish

(01:18:48):
is is another arctic book.
Apparently dan simmons hasmultiple arctic books called
abominable.
But I accidentally read aspoiler.
But I'm kind of glad that Iread it.
That's not actually yetis so noand I read that it's.
It's not as good as the terrorand it doesn't actually have
yetis in it, so I'm not gonnabother oh yeah, so I finished

(01:19:12):
the girl who could move shitwith her mind.
Yeah, I told you that I waspretty.
I finished the Girl who CouldMove Shit With Her Mind.
I told you that I was prettydisappointed in that one, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:19:23):
Yeah, I dumped it after a few pages.

Speaker 2 (01:19:25):
Yeah, it very much gives kind of two-dimensional
girl character written by a dudeyeah, written by a dude, yeah.
So yeah, I read Horrid byKatrina Lino, so that was pretty
interesting.
I was felt like the ending wasa bit anticlimactic, uh-huh.

(01:19:50):
And I read Nestlings by.
Matt Cassidy, which was quiteenjoyable.
Nice.
Yeah, you said you did like it.
Yes, I did like it, so I gaveit a four.
I would say 4.5.
Yeah.
So, maybe I should have given ita five, but I don't know.

(01:20:11):
I never know how to go, whetheror not I should like rate up or
rate down.
Yeah, so I rated it down.
Maybe that was not fair, but Ireally wish they would give me
ten.
Half stars yeah half stars orten stars, so that I could give
it a more nuanced reading.

Speaker 1 (01:20:27):
Yeah, come on, goodreads, get with the program.
Five is not enough.

Speaker 2 (01:20:34):
That's what I'm doing , and I guess I will say that I
have tentatively started.
David Copperfield.

Speaker 1 (01:20:46):
I think that's the book I'm taking on my trip
because I'm not going to havetime this week.
Right, I have to read theluminaries.

Speaker 2 (01:20:53):
I have to read the luminaries.
It has been a bit hard to focuswhen there's very loud children
yeah, yelling and jumpingaround, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:21:06):
And it's Dickens, so it's not like you can just.

Speaker 2 (01:21:08):
Exactly, you got to focus, yeah.
Yeah.
That's why, like I had startedit and then like I had like
Betty, and then I had Betty wasjumping on the bed and she was
yelling and I'm like I'mswitching to an easier book.
And then I put on Nestlings.
But I was enjoying it.

(01:21:31):
I was like this is pretty goodso far, but I was like I just
cannot.

Speaker 1 (01:21:37):
Well, we can take our time with it.
Because I may not take it?
I don't know that I really wantto be reading Dickens on a
cruise.
Yeah, To the Bahamas.
I mean, you'll look reallysophisticated.
Yeah, I don't want to, thoughI'm already going to be dealing
with some gloomy things, sinceit's a true crime thing.
Yeah, yeah thing.

(01:21:58):
So very true.
I have been reading can you onone of those shelves with like
kind of where your arm is at?
Yeah, there is diana gabaldonand it's like lord john and
something.
Lord john, by diana gabaldon,that series is, um, what am I
trying to say?
Uh, so diana gabaldon obviouslywrites the outlander series,

(01:22:22):
but she had a character in oneof the outlander books called
lord john and he became somewhatpopular, and so now she has a
mystery series involving lordjohn's, who is a gay guy in the
1700s 1700s england in themilitary little mlm action uh,
yeah not, not multi-levelmarketing, no but,

(01:22:47):
um so he and he kind of has athing for jamie frazier, who's
the outlander.
Well, I mean, the lady is theoutlander, but he's the dude in
the Outlander series.
Anyway, these are mysteryseries.
They're really fun.
Lord John is a fun dude.
They're well written and it'svery absorbing into that time

(01:23:11):
period and all of that stuff.
So if you like historical books, it's fun.
But he's a fun character and heis.
I don't know if it's that oneor a different one, but I'm
currently reading it audiobookin the car.
I really enjoy the audiobooks.
He likes the MLM action, themen love men action.
Yeah, he usually doesn't getany though.

(01:23:33):
Oh okay, he wants it.
He doesn't always get iteventually right.

Speaker 2 (01:23:40):
Is there like?
Is that so?
Is that other dude youmentioned?
Is that his like main loveinterest?

Speaker 1 (01:23:45):
well, he has a huge crush on him, but jamie
frazier's not a fan and not afan and jamie frazier's in fuck
jamie frazier then, Well, he'sthe main dude in the Outlander
series so he's got his lady love.

Speaker 2 (01:24:00):
I see, Plus, he's a I don't even know these
characters and I'm alreadystanding the protagonist.

Speaker 1 (01:24:10):
Well, the problem is history right, so Jamie Frazier
is a Scottish Jacobite.

Speaker 2 (01:24:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:24:14):
And Lord John is a British military military man so
not frenzies yeah not frenzies,but lord john definitely wants
to get up jamie's skirt.

Speaker 2 (01:24:24):
Yeah, so to speak, nice yeah, I've heard that
people like the romantic lead inoutlander.
Yeah, he's.
I don't know too much aboutoutlander, but I've he's a
sweetie.
I've only I've only read thefirst one I've heard people like
swoon, like oh, outlander, andall this dude character.

Speaker 1 (01:24:44):
Yeah, and the show's.
The show's good too.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean there's jamiefrazier nude.
It's not hard not to like.
You've got a bunch of dudes andkilts, yeah I do like a kilt
good looking dudes and kilts forall genders yes, um, yeah, no,
it's a fun series.

(01:25:05):
Yeah, I've only read the, theone actually.
I think I've only actually readhalf of the outlander book.
I've seen the full first seasonof outlander.
It's about a woman in thepost-world war ii who's married
and I forget what happens.
But basically she gets put backin time and right falls in love
with jamie, who is a youngerman speve kilt.

Speaker 2 (01:25:28):
So that reminds me of how you told me that you watch
timeline for gerard butler yes,I did.
I did watch timeline for gerardbutler still occasionally do,
uh like jay and I had like beenlike we're at a hotel and we
were like flipping through thechannels.

Speaker 1 (01:25:48):
We saw this like very terrible rom-com so you saw a
terrible rom-com with him in it.
Is it the one with?
Is it the one with, um?
Katherine heigl?

Speaker 2 (01:26:01):
no, it wasn't that one no although that scene was a
different terrible rom-com withgerard butler.
Although prompting seeing thatone, we watched some of it and
it was.
It was so bad.
And jay was like why are weeven watching this?
And I was like I don't know,it's got gerard butler.

(01:26:23):
I was like he used to be likeyou know this, like really
handsome leading man, like yeah,you know.
And jay was like he's all rightand I was like I was like well,
he's aged a bit.
You know he's still handsome,but like I was, like you know,
he used to be quite popular.
Yeah, um, and then I, I toldthem about the, the, the

(01:26:49):
terrible katherine heigl onewith the, the vibrator, in their
restaurant yeah and they werelike no, that's not real.
I was like it totally is real,yeah, um the vibrating panties
yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:27:06):
so when you mentioned that about timeline, then made
me think about that terriblerom-com and uh, yeah, by the
time he got into the rom-coms hewas fit, though Like 300 on he
was real fit.
I liked him in time lengths hehad more of a dad bod.

Speaker 2 (01:27:27):
I completely forgot that he was in 300.
Yeah, he was the main dude in300.
I should have.
I should have mentioned 300.
Cause I mentioned timeline aswell, and I should have
mentioned 300, because Imentioned Timeline as well.

Speaker 1 (01:27:38):
Yeah, and Jay was like I don't know what the fuck
that is, I don't know what thatmeans.
Yeah, yeah, no, I liked himwith his I'm like hello Michael
Crichton.
Right, I loved him in his dadbod era.

Speaker 2 (01:27:46):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Who doesn't love a dad bod yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:27:53):
Older man, yeah um older man.

Speaker 2 (01:28:02):
Yeah, yeah, I, I think he's still cute.
Oh, he still is.
Yeah, I still, I still like himeven now.
But no, but this movie was, iswas quite atrocious.
Yeah, um, I mean, I think weneed I need a petition for more
dad bods yeah you know um well,they are becoming more popular.

Speaker 1 (01:28:16):
Pedro, pascal yeah, daddy pascal, zaddy, zaddy.
Is he a zaddy or just a daddy?

Speaker 2 (01:28:24):
what the fuck is the difference between a zaddy and a
daddy?
A zaddy is better dressed.
Oh, I just like the term zaddybetter because, like Daddy,
creeps me out a little bit.
Yeah, okay, I am a millennial.

Speaker 1 (01:28:40):
Millennials like Daddy.
We're the ones who brought thatback, not me.
Or brought it back, brought itout.

Speaker 2 (01:28:46):
Not me, but I'm like I can live with Zaddy.
Yeah, that's different enough.

Speaker 1 (01:28:52):
Okay, so I didn't read or watch anything this week
.
I had to do Title IX training,that's exciting.

Speaker 2 (01:29:06):
How did that go?
It went, it's the same thing.
Different semester yeah, youhave to do it every semester,
not every like year.

Speaker 1 (01:29:13):
I think it might be every year, I can't remember.
But I'm going to have to do asecond one for a different
school, so when I was a sub.
We had to do it yeah every year, yeah, yeah um, okay, so our
book, which will be next episode, is long haul hunting the
highway serial killers is LongHaul Hunting the Highway Serial

(01:29:35):
Killers by Frank Figliuzzi.

Speaker 2 (01:29:38):
And we're going to read it by next week.
Apparently, we're going to geton it and you're also going to
read your own 800-page.
There's just some luminaries.

Speaker 1 (01:29:49):
Thanks book club for picking that 800-page one.
No, it's okay, it actuallysounds like a really enjoyable
yeah I just need to, and it'snot like I haven't had a month
to fucking read it.
Yeah, I just haven't read it,yeah, happens.
Yeah, it's been happening for ayear and a half, two years

(01:30:13):
almost everybody goes throughslums.

Speaker 2 (01:30:18):
That's true.
That's true.

Speaker 1 (01:30:20):
Yeah, okay, that's it , I think I think so, so um like
, subscribe, download.
Send us an email review.
Send an email.
Follow us us on our instagramsand facebook.

Speaker 2 (01:30:34):
Anybody who uh called a governor greg abbott or uh,
yeah, uh assisted um with uhrobert roberson's, uh assisted
in getting a stay of executionfor him, so that was really
awesome.
Yes, yeah, we appreciate you weappreciate you.

Speaker 1 (01:30:57):
Yes, and happy Halloween.
Yep, yeah, happy Halloween, andwe will Don't eat too much
candy no.

Speaker 2 (01:31:09):
Don't eat none candy, unless you can't.

Speaker 1 (01:31:14):
I will be eating all the candy.
I don't think we're handing anyout.
I think I'm just going to beeating.
Well, I will be in El Paso onmy way to.

Speaker 2 (01:31:21):
Miami for the cruise.
You don't have to hand out anyof your candy.

Speaker 1 (01:31:25):
No, it's very exciting.
Okay, so like, subscribe,review, download, follow us on
the Instas and stuff, stuff, andwe will talk to you next time.
Bye.