Vanished From A Busy Public School: The Disappearance of Kyron Horman

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Uh, what was it that you had said about?
You made some kind of commentabout Picard and his tea, and I
didn't catch it because I wascaught up in the grocery drama.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
Um, I think it was that you had said Earl Grey, hot
yeah.
And I said something like Ialways thought it was funny he
had to say hot Right, you know?
I mean I guess you could haveiced tea, but who makes iced
Earl Grey Very true,Particularly a British person.

Speaker 1 (00:31):
You would think that at least hot would be the
default.

Speaker 2 (00:34):
Yeah, and so grandma didn't understand the reference.
And so I was saying the captainof the enterprise Picard always
said Earl gray hot.

Speaker 1 (00:50):
I like sometimes in the summer, I'll make like an
iced lady gray.
I think that works really well.
Ice, because it has those thatadditional like lemon and orange
flavor in it.
That I think is really summeryand and tastes great iced.
But Earl Grey not so much.

(01:10):
I prefer that hot, yeah.
So tea, tea, what kind of teado you guys?
Oh, I got an email for ouremail but it's like seems to be
someone trying to sell us somekind of podcast managerial

(01:32):
services, so I didn't respondand I figure that's not
something that we're doing orcan probably possibly afford to
do but we did get an email.
Woo Go us.

Speaker 2 (01:48):
Yay, one email.

Speaker 1 (01:50):
It was like how are you managing your podcast?
Like well, we're not really.

Speaker 2 (01:57):
Okay, so, oh my God, we haven't done this in a long
time.
I'm Kiki and I'm Rachel.
Oh right, okay, I'm Kiki andI'm Rachel, and this is Details
Are Sketchy, a true crimepodcast, and this is episode 24,
I believe.
I have no idea.
Let's go with whatever numberyou think it is.

Speaker 1 (02:14):
No, it's not 24.

Speaker 2 (02:15):
28.
Or it could be 32.
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (02:21):
We're starting a new season and it's like episode one
of season two.

Speaker 2 (02:26):
After this book.
Yeah so next episode we'llstart season two.

Speaker 1 (02:30):
All right, that makes sense.

Speaker 2 (02:31):
So we apologize for missing a week.
Yeah, I had been on the crimecruise, yeah, and when I got
back I became immediately sickyeah and I've had.

Speaker 1 (02:48):
I've been sick myself and also my kids have been sick
, so it's like subsequentillnesses that, yeah, I've had
to deal with.

Speaker 2 (02:58):
Yeah, so yeah so the, the cruise and the and the
illness put me back a couple ofweeks.
So I'm a few weeks behind ineverything, grading all kinds of
shit, and I was stupid and puta necessary oh no, don't say

(03:19):
that had the either first orsecond part of a project, of a
final project, which is a bigthing that they need done before
the final project is due.
Due the Sunday.
I got back, yeah, which isstupid, that's dumb, that is
really dumb.
I should have made it eitherthe week before or the week

(03:39):
after that.

Speaker 1 (03:40):
Spend too much time with me now, because that's a
very Rachel thing to do.

Speaker 2 (03:54):
No, I think I'm secretly masochistic.
Oh my god, yeah, no, I'm prettysure I do it to myself all the
time.

Speaker 1 (03:58):
Let's see how hard I can make my life.
Yeah, yeah.
I think that's all of us,though I'm sure it is I'm
constantly making silly errorsthat make my life more difficult
or neglecting things that makemy life more difficult, because
I neglected them.

Speaker 2 (04:15):
Yeah so what can you do?
What can you do, okay, so.

Speaker 1 (04:21):
So we're not doing an additional missing person.

Speaker 2 (04:25):
No, because your whole case is a missing person
case.

Speaker 1 (04:28):
We're doing a whole hour.

Speaker 2 (04:30):
So for the third or fourth episode in a row.
We don't have a missing person.
Although again we do have amissing person, just not the way
we usually do it.
Starting next episode, we'llget back to our regularly
scheduled programming, butbefore you start on yours, do

(04:51):
you want me to talk about CrimeCruise, or do you want me?

Speaker 1 (04:53):
to do that after.
I don't know if we want to talkabout it before or after.
I mean it's crime-related.
It is crime-related, let's talkabout it first.
I guess I mean it's not like.

Speaker 2 (05:03):
I have a lot to say, but it was cool.
We went to.
The cruise was to Haiti and itwas supposed to go to Jamaica,
but there's a typhoon orsomething, so we got moved to
Dominican Republic, I think.
I don't know, I didn't get offthe boat there.
I did it Haiti, though.

(05:25):
That was kind of fun.
I was a hot tomato colored gothfor most of it, because I am
not used to the humidity.

Speaker 1 (05:34):
Tomato goth.
That is a new subcategory ofgoth.
Yeah, well, that's how red Iwas.

Speaker 2 (05:41):
That's how red I was, and it wasn't from like sunburn
.

Speaker 1 (05:44):
It was because I get red when I get hot you were,
though, like you sent mepictures and some video of like
the people on the cruise, andthey were all dressed in like
light colors, like white andblue, and like sundresses.

Speaker 2 (05:59):
And I was the only one in black.
Yeah, Absolutely.
And I have deathly pale skin,so I look like death warmed over
.
I was looking like a true goth,except for the times I was a
tomato-y red.

Speaker 1 (06:14):
You should have brought a black lipstick.

Speaker 2 (06:19):
Yeah, there you go, let's see.
So that was that I almostdidn't make it on the boat.
Yeah, because I got dropped offat the wrong boat and I had
already checked in my baggagebefore I figured that out.
So I had to run around withanother guy who was very kind
and helped me find my baggagethankfully it hadn't been loaded

(06:40):
yet and then I had to pay anexorbitant amount of money to
take a taxi to the correct boat,even though it wasn't that far
away.

Speaker 1 (06:49):
But way too far for me to walk, like that always
happens, right and it alwaysinvolves like additional fees.

Speaker 2 (06:55):
Yeah and um, of course it was cash, so thank god
I got some cash, but I couldn'ttip like I probably should have
.
So that was part of the reasonI was eight to make a week off.

Speaker 1 (07:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (07:09):
Crime Cruise itself the crime part, the true crime
part.
It's much, much smaller thanCrime Con, like there were only,
I think, five or six speakers,but they did multiple things.
So, like Chris Hansen from howto Catch Predator, is that the
show?

Speaker 1 (07:27):
Yeah, yeah something along.

Speaker 2 (07:29):
I hate to say it but I've never watched it.
I'm aware of it, but I've neverwatched it.

Speaker 1 (07:35):
But he did oh is that the one where they, like you
know, like entrap pedophiles andshit?
Well, it's not technicallylegally entrapment?

Speaker 2 (07:44):
Well, because they're not cops.
Right, there are cops there,you just don't see them.

Speaker 1 (07:50):
Then what's the difference between what they do
and entrapment?

Speaker 2 (07:54):
He explained the legalese, but I don't remember
what it was.

Speaker 1 (07:58):
I mean, I'm not saying it's bad because fuck
pedophiles.
Yeah, I'm just curious therelegal a legal difference and
whatever, and he explained itbut, I don't remember some kind
of like fine line that theydon't yeah, and so we saw him.

Speaker 2 (08:16):
He did a couple of things.
Um, I had a vip one so I got togo to more stuff than the than
other people.
Matt murphy was there.
He did several things.

Speaker 1 (08:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (08:26):
Like he had a private private in quote marks talk
because it was private with like100 people, right and right.
They all had meet and greetsand whatever.
Paul Holes was there, he wasvery kind.
I met him again.
Yeah, cheryl McCullough, Ibelieve, is her name.
I don't know, she's like acrime con staple and a crime

(08:47):
crew staple.
I always forget her name and Ihonestly didn't really know who
she was until recently.
But she used to be a homicidedetective or maybe still is.
I'm not sure, but I know.
I think she works on cold casesor something.
She has a podcast, uh, and sheteams up sometimes with nancy
grace and they talk about someof those cases.

(09:09):
Yeah, yeah, and so she did herthing as well.
She had several that were allkind of connected.
It was a cold case that hadseveral parts.
Then we had had nate eastonfrom.
I forgot what his news is.
I have the button somewhere butI don't.
I misplaced it.

(09:30):
Life goal keep my mug shot off.
Oh, I can't read his.
His little, his news station isvery little at the bottom, yeah
, but anyway, he.
If you were riveted by the thevalo case, the one where she
married the guy and they thoughttheir kids were demons or

(09:51):
zombies or something and shekilled them and everybody's like
where are your children?

Speaker 1 (09:54):
where are your children?

Speaker 2 (09:56):
he was the one who got uh them on camera in hawaii
yeah so that was him.
He's done many other things,but that was his claim to fame,
I think.
Um so far, but I met him.
There was another dude whosename I cannot remember and oh
did.

Speaker 1 (10:15):
Did she?
Do you think?
Did she truly believe herchildren were demons, or was
that just her excuse?

Speaker 2 (10:22):
I think she truly believed what she was, what she
was selling.

Speaker 1 (10:25):
Yikes.

Speaker 2 (10:26):
Yeah, it was very religious.
Okay, here, instead of metrying to remember from my sick
fogged brain.
Okay, so Chris Hansen, cherylMcCollum, not McCullum Okay, I
apologize.
Paul Holes, nate Eaton, mattMurphy and Derek Lavoisier, who
I wasn't aware of until CrimeCruise, but he had been a police

(10:49):
sergeant on Rhode Island and heis now co-host of the podcast
Crime Weekly.
Isn't that what you just did?
Yes, that is the one I was justlistening to.
That's him.

Speaker 1 (11:03):
He's the only one I didn't get to meet.
He seemed pretty reasonable fora cop.

Speaker 2 (11:08):
He seems like a.
He seems like a.
Well, he's not a cop anymore,but he seems like a Well for an
ex-cop.
He seems like a cool guy.

Speaker 1 (11:16):
His partner was.
She was a little going a littleham with a yeah.

Speaker 2 (11:22):
Well, we'll talk about that, but anyway, he's the
only one I didn't get to meet,and I don't remember why I
didn't get to meet him.
I think maybe I was hanging outwith my new friends.
I met new friends who also weregoing to Crime Cruise Dee and
Shibley who may or may not bewhat's his name who may or may
not be listening.

(11:45):
Listening, hello, if you are.
But yeah, I don't.
He's much younger than I wouldhave thought, so young.
He was one of the youngestpeople hired.
He was hired at 20 to be a cop.
Um, you know, we can discusswhether or not that was.
That's a good age, um, I mean,I think that.
I mean you can go in themilitary at 18, but I also have
questions about that as well.

Speaker 1 (12:06):
I don't think that's good either, especially since
you can't even like fuckingdrink or smoke.

Speaker 2 (12:11):
No, and I think your frontal lobe should be developed
before you're allowed to hold agun, that's what I was exactly
going to say, but he seems to bea good cop.
Yeah, he seems to be a good guyNot digging on Derek.

Speaker 1 (12:26):
What the good cop yeah he seems to be a good guy,
not digging on derrick, what'swhat?

Speaker 2 (12:28):
the fuck is his name?
Derrick?
What's his face?
Uh, lavoisier lavoisier.

Speaker 1 (12:32):
No wonder I didn't remember his or lavoisier.

Speaker 2 (12:35):
It looks french, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (12:36):
I'm gonna go with lavoisier, okay, yeah, um, let's
go with the fancy, but I wentto.

Speaker 2 (12:42):
I went to one of his things and he seemed very nice.
I didn't get to meet him therewas a family feud tonight.
I didn't participate because Iknew I would like seize up, even
though I knew, like most of theanswers, I would if I hadn't
known that.
I would seize up like if I weregood under that kind of I'm

(13:02):
usually good under pressure,just not that kind of pressure
Right, were good under that kindof I'm usually good under
pressure, just not that kind ofpressure right.
Um, I think I would have kickedass on family feud because I
knew the vast majority of thoseanswers.
Nice, but anyway.
So we met those people.

Speaker 1 (13:15):
It's small potatoes compared to crime con as in
terms of like people going aswell is the name of a fantastic
episode of the X-Files thateverybody should go watch and
what else.

Speaker 2 (13:30):
I don't know.
It was just.
It was kind of a fun day.
I felt kind of bad for some ofthese people, particularly like
Paul Hulls and Matt Murphy.
Yeah Well, matt Murphyespecially because he was like
the tallest dude on the ship.
He kind of stuck out like asore thumb and so women just
flock to him you know, and pawholes as well, and and they're
trapped, they can't like, theycan't really leave.

(13:50):
It's a boat, um, I mean, theycan go up to their rooms or
whatever but I mean they were,everybody was very kind in the
water with the sharks.
Yeah, everybody was very, verykind and, uh, lovely and it was
a good time.

Speaker 1 (14:03):
Honestly, if a bunch of people were crowding at me, I
might choose the sharks wellthey even if they were like
attractive women touche or dudesboth, but I don't know like,

(14:25):
despite if they're attractive,you, you would still get
overwhelmed?

Speaker 2 (14:29):
oh, I'm sure.

Speaker 1 (14:29):
Yeah, no, they talk about getting I don't think I
would be cut out for fame yeahso well.

Speaker 2 (14:35):
Hopefully our podcast makes us famous even if you
were surrounded by.
I was overwhelmed all the timeI was overwhelmed.
All the time I don't I don't Idon't blame them.

Speaker 1 (14:44):
You were surrounded by like 50 Matt Murphys.

Speaker 2 (14:47):
Oh yeah, well, Well, I don't know, I don't know,
that's a trick question why?

Speaker 1 (14:56):
do you think that women are more interested in?

Speaker 2 (14:59):
true crime.
That is the question, isn't it?
And they ask that all the timeat these things um and on the
true crime podcasts and stuffand everybody gives a different
answer, right?
some it's because we are usuallythe victim, right, and we want
to know how not to be, and insome weird way, we think by

(15:20):
watching these things we canfigure out how not to be.
Or because they're interestedin the science of it, the
forensics.
And I think people are justnaturally curious, particularly,
I think, women in this case.
I don't know, I don't even knowwhy I watch it.
Yeah, you know what I mean.
Like I've been riveted by truecrime since forensicnsic Files,

(15:44):
I mean I watched like America'sMost Wanted.

Speaker 1 (15:47):
Right.

Speaker 2 (15:48):
And I enjoyed that show, but it was on and off for
me during my childhood.
Sometimes we had TV andsometimes we didn't but Forensic
Files.

Speaker 1 (15:56):
I was riveted and ever since then I've been
devouring true crime andfictional crime as well, and I
try to rack my brains and thinkof the reason why there's a lot
of like it's, it's kind ofeverything and nothing there's
like a lot of like crimey showslike law and order, svu and
things like that that are kindof targeted towards women, and I

(16:19):
wonder if we're kind of womenare kind of primed to.

Speaker 2 (16:22):
I don't know why do you like true crime?

Speaker 1 (16:24):
I like the ones that like yeah, like cold cases, like
mysteries.
I think that the puzzle thepuzzle.

Speaker 2 (16:35):
Yeah, there's a lot of people who like the puzzle.
I like kind of all of it.
Like I like the puzzle, I wantto know if I can solve it.
I like the stories, though Imean a lot of these are very
human stories that we can allrelate to what else?

Speaker 1 (16:51):
and I like the, the forensic stuff, I think I think
it's important to highlight andthis is one thing that always
aggravates me very much aboutthese true crime shows, where
they're always like it was aquiet town where nothing ever
went wrong so like olivedateline, yeah, exactly hold on

(17:15):
hold your thought okay is thatviolence is ubiquitous.
Yeah, murder is ubiquitous andanyone is capable of murder, and
that's something to just kindof be aware of, like yeah, you
know, don't live your life inlike terror or anything, but

(17:38):
like there's no such thing aslike this quiet town where we've
never even heard of murderbefore okay, so you're going to
give us?
yes, we should probably personget into the case.
So we're covering the prettywell-known case of which I had

(17:59):
known about.
I saw, honestly like a redditthread and it was like what's
like a really mysterious case orwhatever, and I was like, ooh,
this is probably good fodder forthe podcast.
This was one of the cases thatcame up and I picked it because

(18:20):
I mean it's very disturbing andit's scary for me as a parent
and the kid was the same age asmy daughter when he went missing
and it's something that, likeyou know, I mean you've seen my

(18:40):
kid and she will just take offand I was like Jesus, jesus, you
know, this is something thatvery well could happen, yeah, um
, although we don't have thewoods and all that stuff right,
it's open desert yeah

Speaker 2 (18:53):
yeah well where you live.
It's not even that, yeah yeah,no, it's.

Speaker 1 (18:57):
No, it's not open desert, but like they're still,
they're saying there's cars andoh, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah no,
I'm not saying it's notdangerous, I'm just saying
Devastatingly in the news, likethe past few weeks, I've seen
two different stories aboutautistic children that were
around that age around 6, 7,that walked out of their homes

(19:21):
and both of those kids werelater found dead and that's very
scary to think about.
Kyron we haven't found Okay.

Speaker 2 (19:33):
And Kyron is a child that you're talking about today.

Speaker 1 (19:37):
Kyron Horman is the child that we're talking about
today, so we don't actually knowwhat happened to him, but we
can probably presume that he'sprobably deceased.
Yeah, um, so he is a boy whowent missing on june 4th 2010

(19:58):
from skyline elementary schoolin portland, oregon, and he was
age seven at that time.
so so this is not a rural placeno, well, I mean, they did have
some wood areas right, but it'snot no, rural, no, it's a big
city, yeah yep um, friday, june4th 2010, the school opened, uh,

(20:23):
at 8 am, I don't know like, ifthat is like not a normal time
to open, because it seems like apretty normal time for a school
to open to me yeah, my schoolopened, yes, open at 8.

Speaker 2 (20:36):
I think it started at 8.

Speaker 1 (20:37):
30 yeah but uh, they were having like a special like
science fair thing throughoutthe school and it was one of
those things where the kids hadtheir presentations, like in
different classrooms, and thenwhat they were going to do is

(20:57):
that they had, like it seemedlike the whole school was
involved in this presentation sothey could, they could view the
presentations and then withtheir classes, all the classes,
were going to go through theother classes and like tour all
the other kids' presentationsand then they were going to go

(21:20):
back and like start their ownclass at like 10 am.
Okay, going to go back and likestart their own class at like 10
am, okay, and so so it openedat 8 am so the students and
parents could tour the fair.
Okay, so, terry and kyronhorman so terry was kyron's
stepmother.
Okay, arrived shortly after theschool opened.

(21:42):
Now, now, normally Kyron tookthe bus to school, but on that
day Terry drove Kyron to school.
Is there a reason?
Yes, there are some reasons.
She also drove Kyron to schoolin her husband's like white
pickup truck rather than her car, which is like a red Mustang,

(22:07):
and uh, she said that the so thereasons were that, uh, she uh
wanted to see this presentation.
She thought that Kyron wasgoing to present on his uh,
science fair topic, which waslike dart frogs or tree frogs,

(22:27):
and then she thought she mayhave to bring his big, like
three-sided presentation pieceback and it was fairly large and
probably would have fit insidea Mustang.
Okay, but when she got there,there it turned out that, uh,
there had been some kind ofmix-up and I guess the kids had

(22:49):
done their presentations the daybefore and that this day was
just for touring and so shedidn't have to do that.
So she but she drove him toschool and they walked around.
They looked at his presentation.
She took a picture of him infront of his presentation and
let's see, I can probably findthe picture pretty easily here.

(23:12):
It is there he is standing infront of his tree frog
presentation he's a cutie, sohe's wearing like a csi.

Speaker 2 (23:20):
Oh, yeah, yeah uh, apparently.

Speaker 1 (23:23):
So this is what year?
2010,.
Yeah, yes, 2010.
All of his parents.
So he has like a mixed family,right.
He's got his father, kane, andhis stepmother, terry, and then
his biological mother, desireeYoung, and her husband, whose
name I forget I want to say it'sBill or something, but it's

(23:47):
like a standard-ish name, rightand apparently they're all big
true crime fans.
Okay, Interesting.
And also Bill or whatever.
I'm so sorry if this dude'sname is not Bill.
I'm sure it says somewhere inmy thing, but I'm not looking at
my thing right now.

(24:07):
So he is a cop or was an ex-cop.
Okay, so that's also aninteresting detail.

Speaker 2 (24:14):
Yeah, is there a reason that the other parents
didn't go to the science fair?

Speaker 1 (24:20):
So Terry and Cain had primary custody of Kyron and
Cain had some work thing that hehad to do.
And so that's why Terry went,and I think that Desiree and her

(24:43):
husband lived a little bit away, so it probably wouldn't have
been as easy for them to go.
But later we'll talk about that.
Terry sends a picture toDesiree of her son at the
science fair and then they chata bit about the science fair
project and how Kyron workedreally hard on it and what their

(25:06):
plans for this summer are okay.
So at this point, um 8 am, sothey go, they take the picture
and a billboard outside I guessthe school read June 4th, I
can't talk.
1b Inquiry Expo 8 to 10.

(25:29):
Talent show 1 to 2, 45.
So I guess there was a talentshow portion, I don't know.
Interesting, wait, that wouldbe involved.
But Kyron was supposed to takeplace in the, the the talent
show later on.
He's gonna be a part of it.
Yep, okay, and he was alsosupposed to tour, like I said,

(25:55):
all of the right otherpresentations with his class at
8 15 skyline pta.
Presidentta President GinaZimmerman arrived at the school
and saw Kyron with hisstepmother in front of his
exhibit.
Terry Horman left the school at8.45 am after watching Kyron

(26:21):
walk toward his classroom.
So this moment is a bit of acontroversial moment right.
So his classroom, I guess, wasclassroom 213.
So it's on the second level andapparently there is multiple
staircases like leading up to it.

(26:43):
Some sources said two, a fewother sources said there were
three staircases like leading upto it.
Some sources said two, a fewother sources said there were
three staircases.
But there's more than onestaircase Right Leading up to
the hall with his class room.
Yeah, and apparently Terry andKyron went up different
staircases Right To get to thehall.

(27:06):
So they go up differentstaircases.
And then Terry says that she sawhim at the other end of the
hall going into his classroomand then she left.
And later on Desiree would saylike there's like a thing in the
way she can't really see.

(27:27):
But then some other sourceshave said that that was later
disproved and that she couldhave seen there was a line of
sight.
Other people have said like,well, why the hell would she go
up a different staircase, whichis a very good question.
Why would she go up a differentstaircase, go up a different
staircase, which is a very goodquestion.
Why would she go up a differentstaircase?
And some people have said, well, that staircase was closer to

(27:50):
her exit.
But then like, I mean like whywouldn't she walk up, put him in
the classroom and then continuelike walking out?

Speaker 2 (28:00):
well, well, personally, I just remembering
how I was and some of my friendswere.
Well, I don't remember if I was, but there are.
You know, some kids want to doit on their own, yeah, and but
the parents still want to keepan eye on them.
So it's entirely possible thathe was like let me go by myself.

(28:21):
And then she went up the otherstaircase just to check on him?

Speaker 1 (28:25):
yep, that is a possibility.
Another thing that I thought ofmy seven-year-old is very
spontaneous and playful, and Ithought it could also be like a
game, like a race.
Yeah, you go up there, I'll goup there.
Yeah, who gets to the top first?
Totally like, so, like.
So there are definitely reasons, reasons, yeah, why they would

(28:46):
have done that Right.
And so she sees him go into theclassroom.
Oh, and one thing that I forgotto mention is that when they
got there, they placed his bagand his coat in the classroom.
Okay, so his bag and his coatwere already in the classroom

(29:06):
and so she says she sees himgoing Mm-hmm, and then she
leaves Mm-hmm and goes and dodo's, does her various things,
mm-hmm, which the various thingsare that she, she has her other
child with her as well.

(29:27):
They're Kyren's younger halfsister, kiara, who's just
apparently the dad or whateverhim his whole family has, and
his name is Kane with a K.
Their whole family has like,this thing with K is like the
Kardashians, gotcha.
So she takes her daughter andhis name is Kane with a K.
Their whole family has thisthing with Ks, like the
Kardashians Gotcha.
So she takes her daughter,kiara, and she goes, she gets in

(29:53):
her truck and she drives to the.
I called it the grocery store.
Right, I'm trying to rememberthe name of the grocery store.
Right, there's, I'm trying toremember the name of the grocery
store, someone that starts withan M and uh.

Speaker 2 (30:12):
It doesn't matter, it's the grocery store she drove
to the grocery store.

Speaker 1 (30:15):
Yeah, to what she said get her daughter some
Tylenol for her earache.
Okay, and with the timing ofthat it does make sense.
So she left at 8.45.
She got to the grocery store at9.
And it would have been astraight shot.
She wouldn't have had time foranything else, right?

(30:37):
She did park her truck a bitaway from the store, and she
parked her truck a bit away fromthe school as well, and later
she would say that this is athing that she does she parks
her I'm raising my hand I do ittoo.

Speaker 2 (30:52):
I park generally as far away from the.

Speaker 1 (30:54):
Why do you like to do it?

Speaker 2 (30:56):
partly because there are fewer cars out there and so
I risk hitting things less whenI pull in.
Part of it is because, you know, it's just kind of like the
only exercise I really get, andpart of it is just that like if
I'm closer up front, thenchances are I have to go out

(31:16):
that way and there are peoplecrossing or whatever, and I
don't want to deal with thatRight.

Speaker 1 (31:24):
Okay.
So later Terry would say thatshe parked away because that's
what Kane does, but then Kanewould maybe later contradict
that claim.
But to me okay.
So some people said, like sheparked away from the grocery
store because maybe Kyron washidden in her truck, uh-huh, but

(31:48):
I wouldn't understand why shewould also park far away from
the school, like in the, thepodcast I listened to, crime
weekly, the lady presenter,stephanie that said wow, that is
, like you know, maybecompelling evidence to prove
guilt, but to me how?

Speaker 2 (32:04):
would that prove guilt?
I don't know, because you wouldhave to carry them a long way.

Speaker 1 (32:08):
Exactly that's that's my thought.
Right is that the farther awayyou're apart from the school,
the farther you're going withkid in tow and the more people
who can see you.
Yeah, so to me that does thatpart doesn't make sense?
Yeah, but it would make senseto park away from the store if

(32:29):
she was trying to hide a kid,but maybe showing that she
parked away at the school and atthe stores.
Maybe that's showing a pattern,but those are the only like
instances that we really know of, right?
So it's hard to say Well, whatwe do know is, like some camera

(32:53):
footage that has caught the carsaw Terry, saw the baby, didn't
see anybody else in the car.
Saw the baby didn't see anybodyelse in the car, which also
contradicts some other differenttestimony that maybe there was
another person with her at thetime, so that person couldn't

(33:14):
have been with her at the time,or if they were, they would have
had to be ducked down andhiding.

Speaker 2 (33:20):
What about the little girl?
Wouldn't she know if Kyron waswith them?

Speaker 1 (33:23):
She was too little for that.

Speaker 2 (33:25):
How old was she she?

Speaker 1 (33:25):
was not.
I don't know exactly, but shewas.
I think she was less than two.
Oh, okay, she was not Gotcha.
She was not really able tocommunicate, gotcha.
So, um, yeah, I didn't know.

Speaker 2 (33:39):
But I forgot that's okay I just I didn't know if she
was like four or five or no,she was a little little okay,
yeah, the, what am I saying?

Speaker 1 (33:50):
so she goes to the, the first store kruger's, that's
the name, right?
Kruger's, kroger's is the store, and, excuse me, so sorry.
Apparently she didn't find whatshe was looking for there.
She said that they didn't havethe type of tylenol she wanted

(34:12):
to buy the dye-free tylenol, notthe kind that I always buy, the
red right yeah, sweet kind butyeah, but she wanted like the
the clear one.

Speaker 2 (34:22):
Yeah, clear one.

Speaker 1 (34:23):
So then she she went and drove to another store and
that also seems to a match upthat she did drive there
directly and same thing parkedfar away went into that store
and some video evidence on up inthat store has shown that she'd
talked to an employee and thenshowed her buying a few things.

(34:47):
Whether those things wereexactly Tylenol, I guess, is
unverified, but the point is shestill, yeah, she went there,
she bought a thing, yeah, or acouple of things, yeah, and then
she left, and after that thenthat's where I think it gets a
little dicey.

(35:07):
Right, she said that she drovearound to relieve her daughter's
earache, as one does if you'vegot a fussy baby.
Yeah, you might drive.

Speaker 2 (35:19):
And yeah, you do what you can to yeah, sue them yeah.

Speaker 1 (35:23):
And she said that she stopped and did a dry cleaner.
That was some bit away, but thedry cleaner was.
She said it was busy and so shejust left without dropping
anything off.
Yeah, on that Crime Weekly theysaid that that was unverified.

(35:57):
Yeah, the police have withhelda lot of the whatever evidence
in this case.
It kind of comes down to thisarticle says this this article
says that.
And there is a book and like,the book says this, this and
that, but like what are thebooks sources as well?
That's also a potentiallydubious nature, yeah, so that's.

(36:19):
Another thing is that, yeah,there's some differing accounts
of things, um, and so she may ormay not have stopped at the
strike cleaner.
And then she says she stoppedat michael's, but there's no
proof of that.
She wasn't captured on cameraand she didn't buy anything so
and then she said that she wentto the gym, which was pretty

(36:44):
common for her.
She was kind of a gym rat we'llsee and earlier in her life she
had been a bodybuilder and yeah.
So she was real big on the gymand so she stopped at the gym.
She put her kid into daycare,which was pretty common for her,

(37:06):
apparently, but normally shewould stay for quite a bit.
This time she only stayed forlike 22 minutes and she didn't
really work out.
She chatted with some people,and it was common for her to
chat with people at the gym.
That was pretty common for her,but what wasn't common is that
she didn't stay for that long.
Yeah, now I thought there couldbe right.

(37:26):
We could see two paths to this.
One path is that she's tryingto build an alibi, right.
Another path is maybe her babywas still fussy from the earache
and so she thought maybe shewas soothed and she wanted to go
work out, but when her babystarted freaking out, then, she
had to leave and curtail her gymvisit.

Speaker 2 (37:46):
Yeah, I'm sorry.
Is the daycare in the gym?
Yes, there's a daycare in thegym.
Okay, gotcha, yeah.

Speaker 1 (37:52):
It wasn't.

Speaker 2 (37:52):
So it's not like they would call.
She might hear or whatever, orsomebody might come and tap her
shoulder and tell her.

Speaker 1 (37:56):
Yeah, somebody might be like she's not settling or
she might even yeah, hear it.

Speaker 2 (38:00):
Like I don't know how big this gym was.

Speaker 1 (38:01):
Yeah, gotcha, but yeah.
But her going to the gym andputting her daughter into
daycare, that was really commonbehavior.

Speaker 2 (38:08):
Yeah, no, I just when you said daycare I thought like
a separate place.
I didn't realize the gym.
But it's the gym, daycareGotcha.

Speaker 1 (38:23):
Also, there is a bit of a discrepancy when she
reported that she arrived at thegym and when, I guess, her
phone tracker reported that shearrived at the gym, which she
said that she arrived around 1140 and according to the phone
tracker, she arrived around 1220.
Oh, and it's not a huge timedifference as someone who has
time issues.
Time to me that's nothing, butit can be a lot when you're

(38:45):
looking at crime.

Speaker 2 (38:47):
She may not have looked at the clock and was just
guessing.

Speaker 1 (38:50):
But depending on how we look at it, right, like she
had somewhere between like about45 minutes and like maybe up to
two hours, between like about45 minutes and like maybe up to
two hours.
If, if we are discounting thedry cleaner and michael's, story
unaccounted for yeah, right,and then later we're gonna find

(39:13):
wait the time tracker.

Speaker 2 (39:14):
So how come they couldn't track her at, like
other places?

Speaker 1 (39:20):
they did and I'll get to that okay.
Um so she, she had a few pings,one particularly.

Speaker 2 (39:30):
That is quite suspicious so are we talking
about cell towers?
Yes, I have shit to say aboutthat cell towers.

Speaker 1 (39:39):
so, but, so, but yeah , there is again.
There is a possibly legitexplanation, although it's a no,
and there's again, you can lookat it as this is real
suspicious.
So now, meanwhile over, let'sgo back to the school.

(39:59):
So meanwhile, at the school,chiron is allegedly marked
absent and there's quite a bitof a clusterfuck in my opinion
about the school and how theydealt with the whole issue and
how it's also reported, like Ithink there's some big

(40:22):
discrepancies, okay, so so theteacher said that she reported
chiron as absent and that shealso reported that she thought
that Kyron was at like adoctor's appointment the day

(40:43):
before.
Terry had brought her like abehavioral thing to fill out for
Kyron because she was takinghim to a doctor's appointment
and there are some emails thatshe has sent to like her friend
that were talking about how shewas worried about like some of
his behavior lately and shewanted to take him to the doctor

(41:06):
.
Yeah, and again, you couldthink of that possibly as
building up an alibi andpremeditation as well, or it
could be a legitimate concern.
Yeah, and the teacher said thatshe thought that the appointment
was on that day, june 4th theday of the science fair.

(41:27):
Terry said that she told him theappointment was for June 10th
or June 11th, which on the CrimeWeekly podcast they were
talking about.
Well, well, why would shereport an appointment that that
school would have been out bythen?
They're saying well, why wouldshe report an appointment that

(41:49):
school would be out by then?
And I actually have an answerfor that and a reason why she
would do that, and it has to dowith the behavioral thing that
she wants the teacher to fillout, because I've had to have
teachers fill out similar thingsfor my children.
Yeah, and it's because she wantsthe teacher to spend time

(42:10):
observing the child andreporting on their behavior so
that she can bring that reportto her doctor as, basically,
like a secondary piece ofevidence that supports her claim
that the kid is acting in thisspecific way.
Yeah, and I'm concerned aboutthis.

(42:31):
Yeah, and so it doesn't matter,right, if the appointment is
after the end of school.
She still wants the teachers Toknow so that they get it to her
in time yeah exactly, and shewants them to provide that
backup evidence.
Basically, yeah, so that wouldbe a reason why she would be
talking to the teacher about anappointment that happens after

(42:54):
the end of school.
Yeah, I mean, I'm talking to mydaughter's teacher about an
appointment that's going tohappen in the middle of summer.
Yeah, so these things do happen.
However, the one thing that Icould not find is whether
anybody checked with the doctorto see if there was an
appointment, right, which seemslike an important thing to do.

Speaker 2 (43:20):
Yeah and and so, again, it's basically just the
teacher's word versus terry'sword yeah, and maybe the police
did, and it's just one piece ofevidence they didn't release
again.

Speaker 1 (43:32):
That could be the case, because they may be
sitting on whatever amount ofevidence?
yeah, but yeah, so that could bethe case, um, but it wasn't
information that I could findavailable, whether or not they
had checked.
So, yeah, so we don't know.
Is this information that thatthey neglected to check?

(43:53):
Is this information that that,um, they they have and they're
not releasing, or what is thecase about it?
Some some people have suggestedthat they wouldn't reveal that
because of patientconfidentiality, but that's not
the case.
When there's a criminalinvestigation involved, they are
not only allowed but obliged to, to offer up that information.

(44:17):
So that would not be aviolation of, like, hipaa law.
So, yeah, so so the teacherreported that she thought that
Kyron was at an appointment.
However, there's a few thingsthat maybe contradict that.
The teacher thought that, uh,one of the things is that
Kyron's bag and code were in theclassroom all day.

(44:39):
Yeah, like, why would you thinkthat a kid was absent?
If his book, the book, if hisbag and his coat were there?
Careful, wouldn't you at leastlike, check and be like is he at
an appointment?
Why is his bag here?
Yeah, you know.
And another thing is that oneof his classmates reported that

(45:02):
he asked the teacher, likewhere's kyron?
And that the teacher said oh, Ithink he went to the bathroom.
So either she's overworked oryeah, she's not a very good and
uh the gentleman's name that Ijust forgot already, dylan Derek

(45:25):
Derek In the Crime Weeklypodcast had suggested or asked
like isn't there like a sign-insheet?
But seven-year-old kids don'tdo a sign-in sheet.
It would be the teacher whowould do like an attendance roll
.
It would be the teacher whowould do like an attendance role
.
Yeah, interestingly, terry wasa teacher or she was.

(45:46):
She had her, her, her teachingdegree and, uh, license and like
she, yeah, she had like abachelor's and a master's in
education and like she waslicensed to teach but she only
ever did like substituteteaching and like educational
assistant stuff and at the timethat Kyron was missing she was

(46:10):
like a stay-at-home mom but shevolunteered at the school.
But she was pretty known at theschool and she was kind of maybe
a slightly ostentatious personand she was known to have like
bright, flaming red hair andlike, yeah, she drove this kind

(46:30):
of flashy car and so this issomebody who is very
recognizable, right, like, andwould be known in the school.
The teacher marked him absentbut there was no call to to
Chiron's parents, none of theparents to report that he was
not in class, which to me, likeI guess they didn't at that time

(46:56):
have an automated call system,which I thought was kind of
madness because, like I said toyou, like back in like 2001,
2002, when I was in high school,we had an automated call system
, and if I skipped school then Iwould try and rush home and

(47:19):
answer the phone for theautomated call system before my
parents got it.
Yeah, and so.

Speaker 2 (47:25):
Yeah, that's weird that New Mexico would be ahead
of Right.

Speaker 1 (47:27):
Yeah, it's kind of mind boggling, right yeah, that
we would be ahead in thatdepartment.

Speaker 2 (47:34):
Do you think maybe there was an automated system,
but he wasn't.

Speaker 1 (47:38):
Was he marked absent?
No, they didn't have anautomated system.
Because later they they say buthe wasn't.
Was he marked absent?
No, they didn't have anautomated system.
Because later they they saythey do a big thing about how
they're going to implement it.
Okay, gotcha, gotcha, and theydidn't have sign-in sheets for
who was coming and going in theschool, or anything, in 2010.
They didn't have that.
No, that's none of that.
So there, no, anybody couldhave walked in to that science

(48:01):
fair and done anything.

Speaker 2 (48:02):
That was my thought.

Speaker 1 (48:04):
Madness.

Speaker 2 (48:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:06):
Now people did say many people reported Kyron was a
real shy kid.
He was very reserved.
They don't think that he wouldhave walked off with a stranger.
Most people think now yeah, Isee you rolling your eyes and
like we don't know for sure,right, but most people believe
that if he was kidnapped, thatit was by somebody he knew.
But there's also tons of otherpeople that he could have come

(48:29):
in contact with at the schoolTeachers, former teachers, etc.
Etc.
Etc that he could have possiblyknown and trusted enough to
walk off with.
How well behaved was he?
Well behaved, from what Iunderstand, because you think it
could have been.
Somebody dresses like a, a copor somebody like no because I'm

(48:52):
thinking of myself.

Speaker 2 (48:53):
Yeah, I was a very well-behaved child.
I think probably the worstthing I did was talk back.

Speaker 1 (48:58):
Maybe you know, but any adult, any adult, whether I
knew them or not, if they hadsaid come with me yeah I would
have gone with them as a shyreserved child well, and it just
occurred to me, like, like Isaid just now, like if somebody
was dressed especially like as acop or like a nurse or somebody

(49:20):
like that, then that would lendcredence to you know.
Give them the authority to tellhim come with me and do this or
do that.

Speaker 2 (49:32):
There were probably parents there that day right
Because it's a science fair.
So they could have even saidI'm so-and-so's parent or
whatever.
Very true, and if they'd nevermet him before, it could have
even been so-and-so's parent orwhatever, very true, and if
they'd never met him before, itcould have even been so-and-so's
parent.

Speaker 1 (49:44):
Yeah, I mean, I'm not saying it wasn't Terry and it
probably was Terry, but just toI, just from everything I've
seen, a lot of people are likeit's definitely Terry, but it
seems like it's not perfect.
Yeah, it's not perfect.

Speaker 2 (50:02):
And so that's what I just want to like.
There are, yeah, there arepossibilities absolutely that
there are alternativepossibilities.

Speaker 1 (50:07):
Yeah, so I agree that terry does seem pretty shady,
yeah, but there's always otherpossibilities and there's other
explanations, like for stufflike oh, like she wasn't really
crying or she wasn't reallydoing this or that, like there's
like people react differentways, so there's explanations

(50:29):
for that that may not.

Speaker 2 (50:30):
I don't usually cry in public, it doesn't matter.
I mean I did when my grandpadied, but that was mainly
because I was exhausted.
If I had been in full controlof myself, I probably wouldn't
have until later If I had beenin full control of myself, I
probably wouldn't have untillater.

Speaker 1 (50:44):
So again, I'm not saying because of the that ping
that we're going to talk about,I think that that's like the
most damning thing, yeah, butbut yeah, there's other
possibilities, especially whenwe break down some like

(51:05):
different things, right, Likethere are some witnesses that
said that they saw Kyron leavewith Terry, but there's also
other witnesses that said thatthey saw Kyron in the school
after Terry had left.

Speaker 2 (51:25):
So it's like people are seeing Kyron everywhere.

Speaker 1 (51:26):
Yeah, witnesses are notoriously terrible,
notoriously unreliable.
Yes, exactly, exactly, andthere's some more.
We'll get into that.
But uh, so nobody called okay,and at the okay, so this even
says right here at 9 am anotherstudent reported seeing kyron

(51:52):
near the south entrance, at skyof skyline.
So that's a report of him beingseen without terry after she
left.
yeah, uh, according to sheriffdan staten, that was the last
time kairona was seen, althoughI don't know if I'm seeing this
right.
Multnomah county authoritieslater backtracked on that

(52:16):
statement class.
Yeah, it seemed like like oncethey kind of honed in that Terry
was going to be their suspect,kind of those other testimonies,
the testimonies of witnesseswho saw Kyron in the school.
Okay, gotcha Class began at 10am and sometime after this his
homeroom teacher, christinaPorter, reported Kyron absent at

(52:40):
1.21 p 21 PM.
After Terry left the gym andshe went back home she posted
the picture of Kyron and hisproject to her Facebook page.
Then she like texted Desiree,kyron's bio mom, uh, to let him
know that she had posted it and,uh, and I guess they talked

(53:01):
about like his project he hadworked really, really hard on it
and they talked about what thesummer plans were.
So they got along, no theydidn't get along.
No, they didn't get along, Okay.
And later Desiree would saythat that was pretty unusual

(53:21):
behavior for Terry to text herand be like.
However, she would also latersay that Terry used to
frequently send her emails aboutKyron, but she would say that
they were usually of acomplainatory nature.

Speaker 2 (53:40):
Gotcha, Okay so Do we know why they didn't get along
with terry jealous?
Yes, I do know tell me, thecheese me.

Speaker 1 (53:47):
I do know why they didn't get along because uh kane
left desiree for terry.
He had been having an affairwith terry while uh kyron was a
baby and he left her for him.
He left uh desiree for terry,okay, and also like he had been

(54:09):
like lying to desiree and likegoing to meet with terry when he
had kyron, like baby kyron,like in his custody douchebag,
like, yeah, taking, taking babykyron to like see terry, and
like she was like holding himand like taking care of him and
stuff like that.
And desiree didn't even knowthat she existed.

Speaker 2 (54:29):
Um well, I can see why desiree would dislike terry,
but it sounds like terrydisliked her.

Speaker 1 (54:34):
Yeah, it seemed like overall, like I, overall, they
didn't really get alongparticularly.
Yeah, terry, they talked aboutin that crime weekly some advice
or whatever, that that uhdesiree had given uh kane to
like get rid of uh desiree.

(54:56):
Basically it didn't sound veryfriendly.
So so, like yeah, I don't thinkthat either of them harbored any
.
No love lost between them, butDesiree reported that they try
to keep it civil for the sake ofco-parenting, right, gotcha,

(55:17):
and both of them, terry andDesiree both have an older son
from previous relationships.
Okay, so that's not superrelevant, but it's just
something to consider.
So she posted, she talked toDesiree, and then at 3.30 pm

(55:38):
Terry and Kyron's father, kaneHorman, went out to meet the
school bus at 3.30, and theydiscovered that he wasn't on the
school bus and when they calledthe school and they were like
where the hell is my kid?
Then they discovered that Kyronhad been absent from school all
day.
Huh, um.

(55:59):
So at 3.46, the school secretary, susan Hall I'm not sure if we
need to know her name, but hername was Susan Hall called 911
to report that Kyron was missing.
About 45 minutes later,officers from the Portland
Police Bureau and MultnomahCounty Sheriff's Office arrived

(56:20):
simultaneously at the school andat Kyron's home.
So at 5.30, they sent out abroadcast to the phones of
parents from the public schoolsthat read Kyron Horman did not
arrive at home today.
That's very cryptic Mm-hmm.
At home today.
That's very cryptic Mm-hmm.

(56:40):
At 7 pm, multnomah CountySheriff's Office Detective
Sergeant Lee Gossin alertedSergeant Travis Goldberg, the
county's on-call coordinator forsearch and rescue efforts, of
the need to begin a formalmissing person search for Kyron,
and between 7 and 7.15, theMultnomah County Public

(57:05):
Information Officer began toreturn pages from members of the
media and arranged to meet fromthem.

Speaker 2 (57:11):
There wasn't an.

Speaker 1 (57:12):
Amber Alert Did they have Amber Alerts in 2010?

Speaker 2 (57:16):
I thought they did.
I thought that was put in placein the 90s.
Oh, was it in the 90s.
I think it came from a case inthe 90s.
Oh, was it in the 90s.
I think it came from a case.

Speaker 1 (57:23):
Let me look, it was from like the early 2000s at
least, though yeah, there was aspecific case that triggered it.

Speaker 2 (57:33):
The Amber Alert system was created in 1996.
Oh dang After the abduction andmurder of nine-year-old Amber
Hagerman in Arlington, texas.

Speaker 1 (57:43):
Well, you would think that if they begin a formal
missing person search, that theywould have put out an Amber
Alert for him.
You would think.

Speaker 2 (57:51):
I mean, that's kind of usually the first step, isn't
it?

Speaker 1 (57:54):
Yeah, sometime between 7 and 7.45, sheriff Dan
Stanton called the FBI to alertthem of Kyron's disappearance,
and the first search teamsarrived at the school at 8 pm
and shortly after 815.

Speaker 2 (58:14):
Wait, I'm sorry.
Who called the FBI?

Speaker 1 (58:17):
The sheriff of Multnomah County, gotcha.
So around 8.15, another cop,lieutenant Mary Lindstrom,
arrived at the school.
She met with everybody and sheemailed a local media photo of
Kyron and I don't know why it'sso tedious, but they're like

(58:40):
this person arrived at this time.
Mm-hmm, and I don't know whyit's so tedious, but they're
like this person arrived at thistime.
So, basically, they organized asearch party, okay, and they
completed a search.
They completed their search by1040, just a search of, like the
school and the grounds, okay,including all the crawl spaces,

(59:01):
the storage areas, theclassrooms and outbuildings,
mm-hmm.
And they also searched theHorman's home, okay.

Speaker 2 (59:08):
They hadn't gone into the woods yet.
No, not yet.

Speaker 1 (59:11):
Okay, but that will come Okay.
At 1044, a tipster called 911to make sure officers checked
the train tunnel in the areanear the school.
The caller said sometimes kidsplay there and they wanted to
make sure that someone haschecked.
Okay, so presumably theychecked that too.
So the next day another searchgroup, pacific Northwest Search

(59:33):
and Rescue, was called andshortly after 5 am they arrived
on site and it was like 60 to 70people involved in that search
and they put out a press release, an email notification, stating
the sheriff's office continuesthe search for 7-year-old Kyron

(59:54):
Horman.
A UK-based missing child sitecreated a page for Kyron.
A tip line was created for him.
Based missing child sitecreated a page for Chiron.
A tip line was created for him.
At noon.
They said that the search was amissing person case at that
point and not a criminalinvestigation.
Alright, the Portland PublicSchool District used their rapid

(01:00:16):
broadcast system to alert thestaff and the parents of the
students who were at the schoolFriday to come on Sunday for a
debriefing by police and federalagents.
The oldest students wereadvised to arrive at 10 am and
the younger students who hadwere to arrive later in the day.
Two news conferences were heldin a day, one at 4, one at 8.

(01:00:40):
Authorities announced the FBIand the National Guard had
joined the effort.
Okay, so right away, this islike a massive response, yeah,
and overall the effort wasincredible and I mean I guess
we'll get to that.
But like they kept asking formore funding, kept asking for

(01:01:04):
more funding, kept searching,kept, searching, kept and we'll
talk about this soon that theydo like a sweep of like a
two-mile radius all around,that's when they searched the
schools.
They brought in the search andrescue dogs and like sniffing
dogs and all that stuff.
Yeah dogs, um, and like sniffingdogs and all that stuff, yeah

(01:01:27):
and um, overall, like the organspent like a million dollars,
wow, uh, on this case lookingfor kyron, wow, which is great,
and but, like I had, I had tohave a little moment to pause
because I was like if thiswasn't a little white boy, like
this would not have happened.

(01:01:48):
So it's great to see that, butwe need that energy for every
missing child.
Yeah, for sure, so, okay.
So at this point, this is whenthey do the grid search.
Okay, that's the two mileradius search.
Okay, Around the school, andthat includes the grid search.
That's the two-mile radiussearch around the school and
that includes the surroundingwoods.
Right, and they created aFacebook page, all the things,

(01:02:12):
all the bells and whistles.
Yeah, on Sunday, june 6th,terry posted on Facebook at 8.59
saying she had ordered a bunchof missing person flyers.
Quote I ordered a thousandflyers.
They will be coming to ourhouse.
I will let people know whenthey are here and you can go

(01:02:33):
from there.
Thank you everyone.
Desiree reported, had reportedthat when she had got to the
house or whatever, when theyarrived to like the house.
Well, first of all, they saidthat, like Kane and Terry did
not contact them.
Desiree, and I'm still going tosay Bill, I'm so sorry, that's

(01:02:57):
okay, desiree and her husband,desiree and her husband, until
they had it had been had beenlike an hour had passed, that
they had known that Chiron wasmissing and she definitely felt
slighted by that.
I mean they should have calledright away, but I can see in the
panic.

Speaker 2 (01:03:12):
Yeah of not doing it, or thinking he'll be found
right away, so not to worry.

Speaker 1 (01:03:18):
Or just thinking like , yeah, let's find my kid,
where's my kid, where's my kid,yeah, away.
So not to worry.
Or just thinking like, yeah,let's find my kid, where's my
kid, where's my kid, yeah.
And then you have to realize,holy shit, my kid is really
fucking missing.
Yeah, I have to contact his mom.
Yeah, yeah, so I can see whythat would happen.
Yeah, um, but yeah, I can alsosee why desiree is upset by that

(01:03:40):
, totally, um.
But she also said that whenthey arrived at the home, that
that she felt that like terrywas like in kind of a cheery
mood, that she didn't seem likeher mood didn't seem to match
the situation and, uh, the allfour of them had to, like, hand

(01:04:00):
over their phones to the cops.
And Terry handed over her phonetoo, but she was the only one
who kind of expressed areluctance to do so, and it was
kind of like my privacy, but shedid hand over her phone yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:04:15):
I don't know.
I think a lot of people wouldhesitate.

Speaker 1 (01:04:18):
Yeah, a lot of people would.

Speaker 2 (01:04:20):
I mean it's a kid, so probably so yeah, but this is
again yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:04:26):
So many of these scenarios are like I can see how
this is not suspicious and Ican see how it's it's suspicious
yeah, yep, so that morning.
This is june 6.
He's been missing for a coupledays now.
The fbi announced they hadbrought in a Quantico-based
profile to create a profile ofthe boy.

(01:04:47):
Oh, and this is another thing,their profile.
They determined they thoughtthat he wouldn't go off with a
stranger.
That was one of the things oftheir profile.
Oh, fbi.

Speaker 2 (01:04:58):
Yeah.
Sometimes, they're silly gooses.

Speaker 1 (01:05:02):
I think that the profiles can be handy, but I
also think that they should betaken with a grain of salt
because I also think I thinkthat sometimes it can limit
what's being looked at, right,yeah, and like it's yeah, I get
it it's based on like psychology.

(01:05:22):
And like it's yeah, I get it,it's based on like psychology
and it's based on all of this.
But this same time, if you'relike this is it's, it's not hard
evidence, yeah, and so I feellike you have to take it as like
this is maybe a probability,but it's not a certainty and you
can't close off those otheravenues.

(01:05:44):
Yeah, and and so that's myissue yeah, with fbi profiles,
as cool as they are right, asmuch as we like to think about
like serial killer profiles andhow cool that is and like the
whole thing, like that they canlike, not that, you know, I'm
not saying serial killers arecool, what?

Speaker 2 (01:06:04):
I'm saying is cool is that they can.

Speaker 1 (01:06:05):
Yeah, the psychology that they can, that they can
discover the psyche of what thatperson's character is like,
yeah, um, but we also have tounderstand that in some case, in
some cases, there's always theoutlier exactly, there are
outliers and so, uh, if you justnarrow it down too much, then

(01:06:30):
you might completely miss otherpossibilities.
I don't think I'm expressingmyself very well, but you know
what I'm talking about yeah,well, I was just thinking.

Speaker 2 (01:06:40):
Maybe they say in the reporting that it's because he
was what, what?
How was he described?

Speaker 1 (01:06:59):
of strangers because of his like, because his parents
watch all those true crimeshows and like and he had
watched them too, so theythought that he was pretty savvy
about well, see, I didn't knowthat part.

Speaker 2 (01:07:10):
So if there had been that part, then I can see how
they would say that he wouldn'tgo with a stranger.
But if, like I, didn't havetrue crime at that point in time
, so I would have probably but Ithink that again, if he thought
that it was someone legit, likea cop or like a doctor or
somebody like that.

Speaker 1 (01:07:29):
That that would still override it.
Yes, yeah, Because he's stillonly a seven-year-old guys.
Yeah, and they said that likehe, you know, could get kind of
spacey Mm-hmm and he would alsolike he was an eager learner,

(01:07:51):
Like Desiree said that he wouldcome and he would like have
learned all these new things,mm-hmm.
And some people believe that hecould have been neurodivergent,
although that's not reallyconfirmed Right.
So shy doesn't necessarily meanneurodivergent, no, it doesn't.

Speaker 2 (01:08:12):
But Desiree, I think, did say that she thought that
if a friend had been like comeon, let's go, that he would have
gone with a friend or the, yeah, trusted yeah, I actually did
that as a kid, like I had a newfriend and she was like come
home with me.
I was like I gotta ask my mom.
She's like don't worry about it, just come home.

Speaker 1 (01:08:29):
Yeah, okay, I went to her house so then all these
students and their parents cameback and they were all
interviewed by detectivesprobably like 50 different
detectives, 300 differentstudents and their parents.
That's a lot of people.
That is a lot of people.

(01:08:49):
That afternoon, around 12, 10pm, Kyron's relatives started
distributing missing personphotos with his picture and a
description that read three feeteight inches tall, 50 pounds,
blue eyes, brown hair.
Lastly, wearing black cargopants, white socks and a worn

(01:09:11):
black Skechers, tennis shoeswith orange trim.
At 3.30, the Portland PublicSchools Superintendent, Carol
Smith, appeared at a newsconference and outlined a series
of immediate steps the districtwas taking.
The Portland Public SchoolSuperintendent, Carol Smith,
appeared at a news conferenceand outlined a series of
immediate steps the district wastaking to address security
concerns in the wake of Kyrie'sdisappearance.
This is when we're like whoops.
We should probably have a signin sheet for parents and we

(01:09:34):
should probably do an automatedcall system, and we should
probably make sure to buzzparents into the building and
make sure they have a badge orsomething identifying who they
are.
It's like why the fuck weren'tyou doing that shit before?

Speaker 2 (01:09:47):
yeah, yeah, but yeah, given the year, that seems
really backward right it does it?
Does they're either reallybackward or really naive?
Yep so.

Speaker 1 (01:10:01):
So it's like, wow, like we have to wait till
something really horriblehappens before we implement
these policies.
Yeah, very sad to see that.
Yeah, the multanomi countysheriff escalated carmen's
disappearance to a missing,endangered case, but didn't call
it a kidnapping.
By the end of that day, onMonday, june 7th, a bunch more

(01:10:28):
search and rescue volunteerssweep the area again handing out
flyers.
They wrote down license platenumbers of a bunch of cars.
The school district made acounseling hotline and classes
resumed, but they had, likecounselors on hand.
That evening, desiree's sisterissued a statement thanking the

(01:10:55):
community on behalf of theirfamily for their continued
support.
Blah, blah.
On Tuesday, united Search andRescue crews resumed their
search and a reward fund wascreated and announced on
Facebook.
And this was the day that, Ithink that Terry posted a post
on Facebook saying I'm going tothe gym.
And this was a lot of peoplewere like this is very odd

(01:11:22):
behavior for somebody who justlost their stepson.
Yeah, and her rationale thatshe gave was that the police
told her to like, told them allto resume their normal activity.
Like I said, she was quite agym rat.

(01:11:43):
She was real addicted toworking out and going to the gym
.
However, it's the facebook postand, yeah, you know the tone
that now some people are chronicfacebook posters I don't know.
If she was that was normal forher, then that's what she was
doing but it it does read as, atbest, quite tone deaf, yes, and

(01:12:07):
at worst, possibly callous,sinister, yeah.
So, uh, the next day, uh,because of backlash from that,
she made her facebook privateand more searching for kyron.
At 11 am, fbi spokeswoman bethand steel said the horman family

(01:12:30):
is not speaking to the mediabecause they do not believe it's
in the best interest of findingkyron, which, yeah, that's
often true.
Yeah, they will take things andspend them and, yeah, yeah, I
always feel some type of way,yeah, about the media when
there's some kind of tragedy andthey're like you just lost your

(01:12:52):
loved one.
How are you feeling, yeah, orlike, have you seen?
Like in the wake of, likeschool shootings, and they're
like interviewing, likeinterviewing these like
traumatized parents, yeah, andthey're like what are you
feeling in this moment?
And it's like go away, yeah,like this person is
shell-shocked, um, like I knowthat they're doing their job and

(01:13:14):
stuff, but in that moment, likeit makes me want to just slap
that reporter.
Yeah, at noon during a newsbriefing, multnomah County
Sheriff's Captain Mike Schultzread a statement from Kyron's
immediate family that readKyron's family would like to
thank people for supportinginterest in finding their son.
The outpouring of support andcontinued effort strengthens

(01:13:37):
their hope.
We need for folks to continueto assist us in our goal.
Please search your properties,cars, outbuilding, sheds, etc.
Also check in with neighborsand friends who may be on
vacation or may need assistance.
There are a lot of resourceshere to help you search, so

(01:14:01):
please don't stop.
It is obviously a difficulttime.
They want to speak to thepublic so you can hear from
Kyron's family as they cometogether to share their message.
Their objective is to keep thefocus on Kyron and not about
anything else.
Yeah, so they just continuedsearching.
So they just continuedsearching.

(01:14:22):
But on Friday, june 11th, theystarted searching on Suave
Island.
Okay, now, this is where thecell phone ping thing comes in,
because her phone pinged at atower that was near Highway 30
and is also the tower for anearby, suave island, which is

(01:14:46):
like in an island that is off ofthe columbia river and it is 24
000 acres.
It's one of the largest riverislands in the united states and
like it's mostly likewildernessy area.
People go camp and fish andstuff like that there and the

(01:15:09):
columbia river lets into theocean there and uh, so obviously
they hadn't checked out the,the island, the island.
Well, yes, but I was going tosay, obviously they checked out
terry's.
Well, yes, but I was going tosay, obviously they checked out
Terry's phone and seen that pingCan.
I ask how far away that thing isfrom Portland Great question I

(01:15:33):
have seen some maps and maybeI'd save some maps.

Speaker 2 (01:15:40):
And I ask that for two reasons.
Number one I used to work very,very briefly for a customer
service that did cell phones,and one of the first things we
learned in training is that ifthe nearest cell phone tower is
clogged up, it will send you tothe nearest one that is free and

(01:16:02):
has space, so it may put you inan area that is not where you
are.
Second, I have experienced thatmyself because on occasion, if
I drive a certain way in El Pasoand I make a call or something,
or somebody calls me, and Imake a call or something, or

(01:16:22):
somebody calls me it puts me inMexico, even though I'm in El
Paso.

Speaker 1 (01:16:30):
Okay, here's the map of her.
I didn't save that to talkabout because I'm terrible with
maps, and so I was like I'lljust gloss over that part.
Yeah, so Terry's story is thatshe was driving on the highway
trying to soothe her daughter,right, but obviously many people

(01:16:58):
believe that she went to SuaveIsland to dump the body of Kyron
and that she dumped it in.
I shouldn't say say it, but shedumped his body in the river
and that he was swept out to theocean.
And a friend of hers, or aformer friend of hers, had
reported to the police that someprevious time because, remember

(01:17:19):
, I told you they were big fansof true crime and they were also
big fans of dexter.
Have you seen dexter and likesomething like season two I want
to see, or maybe it's.
In season one dexter talksabout how he likes to dump
bodies where they can get sweptout to the ocean, and terry had

(01:17:39):
talked to her friend about thatepisode or whatever, and how.
she learned from Dexter thatthat was the perfect place to
dump a body, and so obviouslythe suspicion is on her that she
would dump the body there,because it has all of those
features where a body could getswept out to the ocean, although

(01:18:01):
I would say I've heard multipletrue crime people talk about
similar things who probablywould never commit murder.
That is absolutely the flip side, right?
If you are right, because somepeople have said well, yeah,
she's a true crime and that'show she learned how to do crime,
but also the rest of them werealso true crime and that's how

(01:18:22):
she learned how to do crime, butalso the rest of them were also
true crime enthusiasts as wellyeah, and so absolutely that
could be a thing and, like youknow, if you're just an
interesting fact, you learn likeI'm constantly giving
interesting facts to people thatare just random and about
stupid things or you know likeincluding that in uh, what is it
?
The lovely bones or or somesomething where they talk about

(01:18:48):
how like the perfect murder isif you stab somebody with an
icicle.
So then the icicle just meltsand like there's no evidence.
I mean like there's so manythings out there that you could
be like I, I saw this and it'sthe perfect murder, right, and
it doesn't necessarily mean that, no, but on the flip side you
could see like, oh, she hasmaybe the opportunity, yeah,

(01:19:11):
it's definitely suspicious, butat the same time I mean yeah,
yeah, I don't know that I would,but at this point, because of
those pings right?

Speaker 2 (01:19:22):
Well, see, that's what I was talking about.
I always I don't like the pingshit.

Speaker 1 (01:19:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:19:31):
Because I don't know if you were listening to me when
I was talking about it.

Speaker 1 (01:19:32):
You were busy looking at the map.
I was looking at the map.
Okay, say the thing about thepings again.
There are two reasons.

Speaker 2 (01:19:39):
Our audience heard you.
There are two reasons Ouraudience heard you.
There are two reasons.
So first, I worked, verybriefly, for customer service
that did cell phones, and one ofthe things that we learned in
training is that if a cell phonetower is clogged up, it will
send you to the next one that isnot clogged up and that can be
miles and miles and miles away.
Right, and you're in one place,but your phone is pinging off

(01:20:03):
way way far away from you.
Second, if I drive a certain wayto work in el paso and somebody
calls me or I call somebody, Iget charged internationally
because my phone often will pingoff mexico's cell tower right.
I'm not in mexico, I'm in elpaso.
Is that why my phone is alwaysping off Mexico's cell tower

(01:20:23):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:20:23):
I'm not in Mexico, I'm in El Paso.
Is that why my phone is alwayssaying that I'm in Phoenix?

Speaker 2 (01:20:28):
It could be yeah, Unless you have a 575 number.
Yeah, yeah, I do have a 575.
I'm telling everybody where weare.

Speaker 1 (01:20:36):
Sometimes it says I'm in El Paso.
Sometimes it says I'm in.

Speaker 2 (01:20:39):
Arizona.
I don't know if it can go allthe way to phoenix but yeah it
will.
If, if the cell tower is cloggedup, it will put you somewhere
else, yeah, that's why I don'ttrust those.
Yeah, at all.
I mean, if if they got it adifferent way, like the like you
know how the apps track you,whatever, and you're like

(01:21:00):
driving along that way, thenthat would be different.
But if you're doing the pingshit, I never trust those, ever.
I would be if, if I were ajurist on a murder trial and it
had to do with ping, I wouldn'teven consider that evidence at
all.

Speaker 1 (01:21:16):
Well, yeah, that, that, that that is definitely a
thing.
And later, many years later,right, she went on Dr Phil, and
I mean so did Desiree and Kane,but like at a different time,
right, they all went on Dr Phil.
Yeah, and Dr Phil asked her,like why did your phone ping on

(01:21:40):
Suave Island?
And she said, well, that towerisn't on Suave Island.
And I was on Suave Island, and Imean that doesn't mean that
people who are on Suave Islandaren't pinging.
So if she was on Suave Islandshe would probably ping that
tower, right.
But yeah, like you said, itdoesn't necessarily prove that

(01:22:02):
she knows it doesn't on thatisland.

Speaker 2 (01:22:04):
Yeah, yeah, it really doesn't um, I mean, I don't
know, I mean in 20, now a daysthat might be a little bit
different, because we're now,we're in 2024, but I know back
then, yeah, but like you saidyou, you sometimes, even though
you have a new Mexico number,you sometimes it says you're in
Phoenix or whatever.
Yeah, yeah, sometimes I'm inMexico, but I'm right here in

(01:22:27):
Las Cruces or El Paso.

Speaker 1 (01:22:30):
Anyway, this is the.
So prosecutorspodcastcom iswhere I got this, found this map
.
So if anybody's interested intaking a look at what Terry
Horman's route was 28 minutes,11.4 miles.
Oh, that's just part of it 20minutes for that part, 42

(01:22:52):
minutes for the other part,three minutes for another part.
Okay, so that's her route.
If you want to take a look atit, we'll post that in the show
notes.
Um, so, according to the cellphone pings, and then whatever

(01:23:14):
not GPS, cause they didn'treally have GPS, but yeah, yeah.
Cause it would be interesting ifit, if it was done through app
tracking, because that'sdifferent yeah so, but at this
point it seems that at least thepolice right are narrowing in
on terry as a person of interest.

Speaker 2 (01:23:34):
Yeah, I admit it's very circumstantial, yes, but
but it is very circumstantialmost murder cases are actually
circumstantial.
But yeah, I can see how it'spointing to her, but there's
what's the motive well, that's.

Speaker 1 (01:23:49):
That's one of the things that's a little bit up in
the air some people think that,uh, it was a divorce based
motive, because I guess, like inoregon or whatever, they have
like a kind of preference for ifa kid gets or they did, I don't
know if they still do like akind of preference for if you

(01:24:12):
get like a divorce from yourspouse, that there's a
preference to keep siblingstogether like in a custody
arrangement and obviously if shedivorced Cain then Cain
wouldn't have custody of Kyronbecause she has no claim to

(01:24:34):
Kyron.
Yeah, and she also isn't workingand yeah, and so, um, she might
be at a disadvantage for acustody battle for her daughter
Kiara.

Speaker 2 (01:24:46):
So were they in divorce talks, were they?

Speaker 1 (01:24:48):
planning on it.
They hadn't been in divorcetalks, but some friends had
reported that she had talkedabout divorcing him.
Okay, what would the othermotive be?

(01:25:16):
Okay, what would the othermotive be?
Who knows if you're an unhingedperson?

Speaker 2 (01:25:21):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:25:22):
Is that Cain's family was real big on whatever legacy
.
They had this name thing going,they had this whole whatever
thing about their legacy andthat she would have tried to
destroy him by destroying hislegacy, his son.

(01:25:43):
But I was like he could justmake another son.
Yeah, but I mean, if you're nota rational, let's assume you're
not a rational actor and likemaybe that could be a motivation
.
yeah, so but nothing you've toldme tells me that she's
irrational yeah, yeah, I meanthere is, there's some stuff,

(01:26:06):
but it's all again, yeah, notthat it's not that solid and I
mean there's definitely a reasonwhy, even though it seems like
she's been the person ofinterest the main person of
interest for the from the police.
For all these years Like she hasnot been charged and we'll get

(01:26:29):
into that.
There was a grand jury convenedand I guess we're getting into
it now, like a couple monthslater.
Basically there was a grandjury convene and it was
basically dismissed becausethere wasn't enough evidence
right, and in this kind of caseit's not like she could never be

(01:26:50):
like retried because she wasn'tlike acquitted.
So it's not like a doublejeopardy situation right because
it's a grand jury.
It's not really a trial well,yeah, it's not really trial and
and she wasn't actuallyacquitted, they just dismissed
the case for lack of evidence.
Yeah, and so there could be anew trial, but they would just

(01:27:13):
have to admit new evidence.

Speaker 2 (01:27:15):
Yeah, it's not really a trial at all.
It's the grand jury decideswhether or not they think
there's enough evidence to havea trial.

Speaker 1 (01:27:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:27:23):
And just because they say no doesn't mean that the
person's innocent.
It just means that there's notenough evidence or whatever, and
it can go back to the grandjury at any point.

Speaker 1 (01:27:35):
Yeah, so it hasn't, yeah.
And so you would think thatthey don't.
I mean they might be sitting onwhatever, but whatever, it is
right they haven't charged her.

Speaker 2 (01:27:48):
They would give that to the grand jury if they would
give all the evidence.
Yeah, and the other thing aboutthe grand jury which I mean it
has nothing to do at this point,but I just found it interesting
is that the defense doesn't getto present anything, yeah, so
the person just sits there andgets questioned by the
prosecutor, yeah, that sucks.

Speaker 1 (01:28:09):
It does suck, but yeah, they didn't find enough
evidence at that point and itseems like they haven't found
more evidence at this point, orat least not enough to charge
her, because she hasn't beencharged and she's walking free

(01:28:31):
right now.
So they have, I guess,interviewed and looked at other
people as well, but it seemslike she's been their main
person.
Yeah, um, so I'm not sure likehow intensely they've looked at
other people, because it seemslike pretty quickly yeah, it

(01:28:53):
feels.

Speaker 2 (01:28:53):
it feels kind of like they they zeroed in on her and
yeah, and there doesn't seem tobe much movement, otherwise no.

Speaker 1 (01:29:05):
There is one other person, okay, who is an
interesting person, hold on, andthis is Terry's friend.
Her name is Dee Dee Spicer,uh-huh, and she's like a
gardener, uh-huh, and her andTerry, I guess, met through like
the gym.
She was also like like a bigworkout person, whatever, and

(01:29:32):
interestingly, she also is aredhead Interesting.
Yeah, it's very interestingbecause some witnesses said they
saw Kyron leaving with a redhaired woman.
Right, terry is a red hairedwoman, woman, but so is dd, and
dd was also unaccounted for forsome hours around the same time.

(01:29:54):
Yeah, and what it?
What it is is that she has thisgardening job, or had this
gardening job on this like big,whatever farm or big area of
land, and like all the gardenerswould like whatever, check in,
get their assignment for likethe area that they're supposed

(01:30:15):
to do, and then they go do it,and then they like come in for
lunch and all that stuff, comein for lunch and all that stuff,
and but like, when they'redoing their little gardening
stuff off in this big assproperty, then they're pretty
much alone, right, and she uhhad arrived, excuse me, checked

(01:30:38):
her, like putting her lunch andstuff in the locker, and then
she allegedly left her phone inher car and went off and did her
gardening or whatever missedlunch.
They tried to call her and likeshe didn't respond, and she said

(01:31:01):
that was because because sheleft her phone in her car and
she lost track of time.
And then she realized and camein later and they were like
where were you?
We tried to call you and shewas like I was just there
gardening and I lost track oftime.
However, there is this space oftime where nobody can really
verify and so some peoplebelieve she could have left, she

(01:31:26):
could have been picked up byTerry and been an accomplice of
Terry.
Now one of the reports has saidthat somebody had thought that
they had seen somebody elsesitting in Terry's car when it
was like sitting across thestreet from the school and they
thought that that was dd.
But that would have been tooearly for dd to have been

(01:31:49):
missing and so that doesn't makesense to me for that to have
been dd.
And then also, again, shewasn't picked up.
Later, when the cameras picked,pick, picked them up driving,
they only picked up Terry andthe baby, unless she's like down
on the ground or down in thebed of the truck, like holding

(01:32:09):
Chiron or something Like down orsomething, and so I would think
that if she picked her up, itwould be like on her way to like
suave island, in that whateverpossible up to two-ish hours of
missing time she could havemaybe picked her up and she

(01:32:32):
could have helped her, whateverand then return her, and no one
would have been the wiser forthat.
Now, even less so.
What would Terry's motivationbe?

Speaker 2 (01:32:51):
What would Dee Dee's motivation be to assist her.

Speaker 1 (01:32:54):
Yeah, that's what I was just thinking of that would
really motivate her to assistterry to murder an innocent
child.
Is that they had a relationship, and a romantic one, yeah yeah,

(01:33:14):
and that maybe she posed chironsomehow as like the only thing
standing between you and mebeing together.
Yeah, and so maybe she canmanipulate her that way into
assisting her, and yeah, butstill that there's no way you
can hide that kind ofrelationship, though you may
think you can.

(01:33:34):
Yeah, but somebody's gonna knowwell, and here's the thing too,
like like uh, now I did find onetestimony of Terry reporting
that they had like a physicalrelationship, but that's the
only with Terry's otherrelationship, because later it
comes out that Terry was havingan affair with like another dude

(01:33:58):
and possibly Kane was having anaffair as well, but that's not
as focused on because, sincehe's not under suspicion, right,
but it was pretty obvious thatshe was having an affair with
this dude.
She was like sexting him andshit like that.
Yeah, like pretty graphically.
And so I would think that ifshe was carrying on an affair
with Deedee, that you would seesimilar kind of evidence.

(01:34:22):
Yeah, and you don't see that,right.
But yeah, I thought that thatmight be a reason that she would
be motivated to assist her.
Yeah, but even then a childLike I can much easier see like
If it was a husband.
Let's get the husband out of theway, then let's get this kid

(01:34:45):
out of the way than let's getthis kid out of the way.
And but I also.
It also occurred to me likewhat if she didn't have Chiron
and picked up Dee Dee for asecret romantic rendezvous or
picnic or something at SuaveIsland?
That could be like an innocentpossibility of why dd and terry

(01:35:06):
were unaccounted for and why shewouldn't be forthright about
her whereabouts.
But again, since that'sprobably less likely also since
what am I trying to say?
Since she wasn't very subtleabout her other affairs, Right?
So I don't know why she wouldbe so much more careful about

(01:35:29):
that one.
Yeah, so I think that, probably,that certainly, of course, we
can understand Desiree'sfrustration and her desire to
seek justice for her child, yeah, but I think that she does have

(01:35:51):
a little bit of goggles on whenit comes to Terry.
Yeah, and not saying again thatTerry is not, you know, the
prime suspect in this case,because she definitely is yeah,
there's a lot pointing to her.
But it doesn't seem like thereis evidence that there's a
physical relationship.

Speaker 2 (01:36:08):
No, and none of the motives that are floating around
feel they're not super strong.
No, and you don't need a motiveto have a trial or to prove
guilt.
Yeah, but juries sure like itWell, and we also.

Speaker 1 (01:36:25):
but we also don't have of course is a body, yeah,
that's, I think you know, themain reason why they can't bring
charges against her rightthere's no body, there's no
evidence there.
Well, there I did see a reportthat maybe they found some DNA
evidence of Chiron in the bed ofthe pickup truck the pickup

(01:36:51):
truck but there could also beinnocent motivations for them.
Yeah, so again, none of that isreally like clearly showing,
like know, is there?
like you know?
Like, uh, derrick said like,did they find mud on like the

(01:37:15):
tires of the pickup?
That, yeah, was mud from suave.
It's like something like thatthat would be very.

Speaker 2 (01:37:21):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:37:22):
Exactly.
But, or was it?

Speaker 2 (01:37:24):
sparkling clean at night, when it wasn't in the
morning.

Speaker 1 (01:37:29):
You know, but it's not.
Yeah, exactly yeah, like yeahif it's suddenly clean.
But that's also evidence, right, like yeah, oh, it wasn't so
clean.

Speaker 2 (01:37:37):
Well, that's what I mean.
Yeah, now she's gotten itcleaned.

Speaker 1 (01:37:41):
Yeah, yeah, that's suspicious.

Speaker 2 (01:37:44):
Yeah, um so her behavior is suspicious, but yeah
, her behavior is definitelysuspicious, yeah, but there are
so many other possibilities yeah, there are other possibilities
that to me seem just as likelyyeah so, um, because it's it

(01:38:05):
seems, there's no cameras in theschool no, there were.

Speaker 1 (01:38:08):
Yeah, that, yeah, I should have mentioned that.
No cameras in the school, nocameras outside the school.
Now there are 2010 guys, but soso, yeah, all we have are these
whatever different eyewitnesstestimonies that are giving
different kinds of stories.
Yeah, Yep and in the CrimeDaily podcast they talked about.

(01:38:34):
They said, oh well, whatever.
Terry changed her story thatshe had first said that they
went up the different staircasesand then later she said she
went up the staircase withChiron, but after digging into
it.
It seems like the only source ofthat information was desiree,
yeah, and so that's not like asmuch as I.
As I understand desiree'sposition, I don't think that her

(01:38:58):
word is like that supercredible no, especially since
she hates terry.
Yeah, I need a more objectiveuh source for that.
Yeah, so um, oh, another thingthat people point to terry she
failed the polygraph exam.

(01:39:19):
I hate that shit.
I hate the polygraph stuff yeahI hate I would fail it because
polygraphs are trash and there'sa reason they're not used in
court.
Using court, and then what theysay?
She failed two polygraphs, butshe failed the first one and
then she walked out of thesecond, and some sources say

(01:39:41):
that she walked out because shewas frustrated.
Remember, I said she has anolder son.
Her older son reported that shewalked out because she's hard
of hearing and she couldn't hearthe questioner's questions.
Yeah, and they wouldn't allowher to read his lips, and so she

(01:40:02):
left yeah, allow her to readhis lips.
And so she left yeah, um, soagain, his testimony is also
subjective, so it's all.
Yeah, he should.
He said she said stuff, havethey?

Speaker 2 (01:40:15):
corroborate cora, corroborated with other people
like her friends who know thatshe's hard of hearing not that I
could see okay, yeah, because Imean that would seem to be an
easy thing to figure out ifthat's true or not right,
there's a lot of things that Iwould think are easy to yeah to.

Speaker 1 (01:40:34):
To determine whether or not, what day the doctor's
appointment was on, whethershe's hard of hearing um, there
isn't like.
Desiree also reported that theschool had a system where they
would like grade the kids like abehavior grade.
It would be like green, yellowor red and that, like what am I

(01:41:00):
trying to say?
That Terry was really hard onKyron about whether or not he
had to get like a green behaviorscore and if he got a yellow,
or obviously a red, but if hegot a yellow, even then he would
be in trouble and grounded tohis room.
But again, the only source ofthat seems to be Desiree.

(01:41:24):
In the Crime Weekly podcast,they reported that other parents
said they don't recall such asystem, and I'm like this like
ask the teacher yeah, thisshould be easy to determine,
yeah, yeah.
So I mean, I know that someschools do have systems like

(01:41:45):
that, right, I think that moreand more schools are getting rid
of them because they're crap,right, but especially in 2010.
Yeah, I could see schoolshaving systems like that yeah.
But they should still have asked.
Yeah, yeah, there should be afactual answer to these

(01:42:07):
questions.
Yeah, yeah, there should be afactual answer to these
questions.
Yeah, either, there should be afactual answer to many of these
questions and there doesn'tseem to be, or one that is not
available to the public.

Speaker 2 (01:42:19):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:42:20):
So, again, we don't know what kind of evidence the
police are sitting on, yeah, butit's obviously not enough
evidence to indict terry, right?
So I don't know if there is any.
Oh, emails, uh, there's alsolike emails.
I guess those reports of thered and green were part of that.

(01:42:41):
But I guess, again, desireereported that Terry had sent
emails where she expressednegative feelings toward Chiron
and maybe even expressed likeaggression towards Chiron, and

(01:43:02):
there seems to be some some,perhaps some, differing accounts
between desiree and kane onthis one.
Now we know that I didn't Ihaven't reported on this part
yet because I kind of lost theplot but like, shortly after
this all went down uh, kane uhleft desiree, basically, and he

(01:43:25):
like took off.
He took off with kiara and didhe left desiree or he left terry
.
I'm sorry he left terry, my bad,he had already left desiree.
He left terry and he like tookoff with kiara and and terry was
real pissed and she was likeyou have to bring my kid back
and and he was like no, don't.
And she called 911 and they werelike no, he doesn't have to

(01:43:48):
bring her back because he's aparent and he has custodial
rights too.
And so shortly after that thenhe initiated divorce proceedings
.
But their divorce was reallylong and drawn out because of
Terry's position as a a personof interest.
They never officially named heras like a suspect, right, so

(01:44:11):
she was just a person ofinterest.
But because of that uh criminalinvestigation, the it drew out
the divorce proceedings,basically, and there was a
custody battle between betweenuh terry and and kane over kiara
and, and kane won yeah um, butI think later on she did earn

(01:44:35):
some limited custody rights tokiara.
Yeah, what else?
Years later she tried to changeher name like twice, two
different times, and the firsttime that, the first time, the
judge said no because, likeyou're a person of interest in
this uh, ongoing criminalinvestigation.

(01:44:55):
Even though it's been years,like I don't, it's still open.
Yeah, investigation.
And uh, so he said, no, youcan't change her name.
Yeah, and then, like a littlebit later, she tried again to
change her name to a slightlydifferent name and that time,
like there was a big onlinepetition, uh, resisting her

(01:45:17):
changing her name, and so thatgot around and and she was
unable to change her name.
So I think that time shedropped it, yeah, and she just
unable to change her name.
So I think that's how shedropped it, yeah, and she just
went and started going by hermaiden name, which I think is
like more none or something likethat.
Yeah, I'm sure I have it righthere in my notes and if I would
open them and look at them thenI would find it.

Speaker 2 (01:45:38):
That's okay.
That's all right.
She went by her maiden name,that's all we need to know.

Speaker 1 (01:45:41):
Yeah, she went by her maiden name and the reason she
reported she wanted to changeher name was because she was
having a lot of trouble findingjobs and stuff.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I imagine and that is a legitconcern.
It is Like I'm not saying.

Speaker 2 (01:45:58):
Just because they're a suspect, they aren't guilty
yet, so they should still beable to have a life I'm not
saying she's not even a suspect.
She's just a person of interest.

Speaker 1 (01:46:06):
I'm not saying sympathy for murderers, but I'm
saying that people are innocent.
Are innocent until provenguilty and that they should not
be denied the right to work andearn money and earn a living and
support themselves again.
Yeah, if she, if she is guilty,then like you know, and she

(01:46:28):
doesn't seem like a terriblygood person- yeah, I mean yeah
like she doesn't seem like thatgood of a person she's the kind
of person who, you know, sleepsaround with someone who's
married.
She's the kind of person who islike, maybe not a great friend
and and she's also maybe not agreat parent.

(01:46:51):
Again, it's hard to say, though.

Speaker 2 (01:46:53):
It's hard to say yeah , although the husband doesn't
sound like a great person either.
He's no, he doesn't say no.

Speaker 1 (01:46:59):
I I fully agree.
He doesn't sound like a greatperson either.
And they they talked about,like when he found out that like
Desiree was pregnant, he waslike oh, you think I want this
kid, yeah, and like obviouslyyou changed his tune, right, but
like I mean, it seemed likeboth of them were maybe not the

(01:47:21):
best of people.
Both of them were maybe not thebest of people, not saying that
they didn't love their kid, andmaybe, you know, you could be
maybe not a great adult person,but be a great parent to your
kid as well.

Speaker 2 (01:47:33):
Do we know why he was granted custody?

Speaker 1 (01:47:40):
Because it seems like he was the one cheating, so you
would think she would getcustody.
Yeah, she said that she wassuffering from some type of
illness.

Speaker 2 (01:47:45):
Okay, yeah, okay, she would get custody.
Yeah, she said that that shewas suffering from some type of
illness.
Okay, yeah, okay, yeah, becausehe doesn't seem like a great
dad either.
No, he doesn't right.
No, that whole family seemsreal fucked up.

Speaker 1 (01:47:54):
I mean I, I guess I shouldn't be saying that,
because I don't fucking know forsure.
But you know, like I mean,maybe he is a fantastic dad.

Speaker 2 (01:48:02):
Yeah Well, I mean, he took his son to meet his
mistress.
Yeah, yeah, that's not a gooddad.

Speaker 1 (01:48:11):
To me that's not great, I agree, I agree, but,
like you know, I mean like heseemed like he loved his kid,
his kid was fed, cared for andall of those things.
Yeah, like I like.
I mean, obviously that is thefucking like bare minimum.
But right yeah, in this worldwhere we're talking about a

(01:48:33):
child who was potentiallymurdered, yeah, I would say that
that is the bar, yeah, yeah andno, I'm not suggesting that dad
did it, I'm just saying I donknow that neither of them seem
like pleasant people.

Speaker 2 (01:48:47):
No, no.

Speaker 1 (01:48:49):
The other thing that gets me is like is like that the
stepdad was like a cop and I'mlike could she really commit
this, like murder, right underthis cop's nose and like get
away with it?
I mean I guess you could, butlike that's ballsy.
Yeah, not saying that shewasn't ballsy or that, but I

(01:49:12):
mean, what do you think aboutthat?
Do you think that's a factor atall or not?

Speaker 2 (01:49:18):
I don't know.
I would say it would depend onhow smart she thinks she is,
yeah, or how solid a plan shethinks she has.

Speaker 1 (01:49:23):
I mean it seemed like she was pretty she, I mean was
is Seemed like she definitely.
I mean, maybe was asappropriate though, because this
is kind of a paradigm shiftingevent that changes the course of
your life and it probablychanges your attitude about a

(01:49:46):
lot of things but it seemed likeshe was a very self-confident
woman.
Yeah, um, ostentatious, evenyou know.
Yeah, all of those things somepeople said narcissistic, uh, or
at least the podcaster Ilistened to said narcissistic.
I don't know if I've seenevidence of narcissism, but she

(01:50:10):
certainly seemed like she was avery confident woman who was
very self-possessed.

Speaker 2 (01:50:16):
I guess that's right, yeah, that also doesn't really
mean anything yeah, you know, Imean people always point the it
doesn't.
It doesn't really mean anything.
Yeah, you know, I mean peoplealways point the finger at women
who are like that, it doesn'tmean anything, but it could be
that she thought she could getaway with it.

Speaker 1 (01:50:29):
Yeah, it could mean she thought she could get away
with it.
Or, on the other hand, it couldmean like, oh, here's this bold
redhead with her bold red carand her vanity plate, and she
thinks that she can do this andthat kind of thing.

Speaker 2 (01:50:46):
Yeah, vanity play, and she thinks that she can do
this and that, yeah, kind ofthing.
Yeah, the true crime thing,though, like, yes, I could see
where people would say, well,she watches all that true crime,
so she thinks she can get awaywith it.
But I would also say true crimecould also make a person think,
oh, I can't get away with itright, particularly when it
comes with me.

Speaker 1 (01:51:04):
Not that I'm thinking , I'm just to make it clear.
I'm not thinking aboutmurdering anybody, right?
But it makes it clear to methat people usually cannot get
away with it right, but I meanspecifically children, because
it's always the parents who aresuspected first.

Speaker 2 (01:51:18):
Like she would, she would have to know that she
would be under she would have toknow, particularly she would be
under scrutiny Right.
She would have to knowParticularly step-parents.
If there are any, they are thefirst really and like whatever,
Derek.
Derek, yes, derek.

Speaker 1 (01:51:35):
One of the things he pointed out was like that moment
where she said that she saw himgo into the classroom.
She could have just said I senthim to his classroom and I
didn't see where he went.
Yeah, like, that would havegiven her plausible deniability
for him disappearing and her notknowing.
Yeah, like, if she's trying toget away with it, why is she

(01:51:59):
saying I saw him go into theclassroom, right?

Speaker 2 (01:52:03):
is she?

Speaker 1 (01:52:03):
saying I saw him go into the classroom, like to me
that gives her, does it takesaway that leeway if she's trying
to get away with something.
Yeah, yeah, because, yeah, he's, he's not out of her sight
until he steps into thatclassroom.
Yeah, the the only thing that,as the other podcaster,

(01:52:27):
stephanie, who was suspicious ofher that is an understated
comment said that maybe becauseshe's this type of personality
who she doesn't want to looklike, she was a negligent parent
in any way and let her childout of her sight, and so she
wants to let it be known that,like it wasn't her, like she

(01:52:51):
didn't let him out of her sight.
Yeah, she saw him enter theclassroom, but then again, why
would you make up this story oflike he was at the other end of
the hallway, like wouldn't yousay, say I walked him right into
the classroom, then yeah, or Iwalked him right to the door
rather than I saw him from downthe hall.
I don't know, yeah, I don'tknow either.

(01:53:14):
I don't know.
I mean again, lots of peoplewho are murdering or, yeah,
premeditating, and all make alot of irrational decisions so I
mean there's thatto be yeah, yeah to be said.
Um, I'm trying to see ifthere's anything else.
Oh, that friend, uh, dd spicer,she uh also took a polygraph

(01:53:41):
test, which, which she passedNot that that means that much,
no, she was.
Also, she said that she cutsome kind of deal with the
police and that she is no longerviewed as like a person of
interest in the case.
So, I'm not sure, a deal withthe police.
That's what she said In anarticle.

(01:54:03):
That's what she said in anarticle.
That's what she saidInteresting.
I don't know what kind of deallike, for what information she
was getting.
Ooh, ooh, ooh.
Here's a big thing that Iforgot to mention.
Okay, is that her and Terry.
After like a couple of weeks,I'm sorry, a couple of weeks

(01:54:26):
after Kyron went missing, herand Terry were communicating
through burner phones thatDeeDee purchased, and DeeDee
said that they got the burnerphones because Terry was was,
one, afraid that her, all hershit was bugged, which it was

(01:54:48):
yeah, and two, because there wasall this attention, negative
attention, on her or whatever,and she just wanted the privacy
yeahand so.
But the burner phone thing isanother thing that people are
like this looks pretty bad, yeah.
My thing about the burnerphones is like it's like when

(01:55:09):
they have wanted the burnerphones before, yeah, and not
after.
But I mean, I guess after youcould be communicating
suspicious stuff too.
Yeah so, but again Dee Dee isno longer a person of interest
in the case at all.
Yeah so, but again Dee Dee isno longer a person of interest
in the case at all.
Yeah, so, so that kind of Idon't know what's going on with

(01:55:30):
that.

Speaker 2 (01:55:30):
That kind of takes away that ooh, that kind of
takes away that motive.

Speaker 1 (01:55:33):
Yeah, yeah, but what do you think about that burner
phone thing?

Speaker 2 (01:55:37):
Well, I mean it's suspicious.
But I can understand, yeah, youknow you want.
I imagine being under scrutinylike that is very disconcerting,
yeah, and very bothersome, andit should be, it should be, it
should be.
But, um, I can understand thedesire to just have a little bit

(01:56:00):
of privacy but not a smart move.

Speaker 1 (01:56:02):
Yeah, no, not a smart move.
No At all.
If she legitimately is, yeah,just looking for some privacy,
yeah, that's a way to to get it,but at the same time, like you
have to, you would think youwould want to stop and think,
yeah, and be like this doesn'treally look that good to do,
yeah but I mean, at that pointyou may not be thinking yeah,

(01:56:25):
you know I mean your policethink you're guilty.

Speaker 2 (01:56:29):
Probably your husband thinks you're guilty.
You know the the everybody'safter you, right, like even if
she were completely and totallyinnocent, there is always going
to be people in the public whoare?
Going to say the parents did it, or that she did, or whatever
you know, um, always, uh, nomatter what's done.
So I can, I can understandmaking dumb, dumb choices, I

(01:56:56):
guess, because your brain, yourbrain's just yeah, it's not
working right and uh, I alsoneglected to say that the police
did a bunch of searches onSuave Island.

Speaker 1 (01:57:09):
They searched the water, they searched the island
multiple times, right andnothing, nothing Again.
That doesn't mean that thereisn't a body.

Speaker 2 (01:57:22):
They just haven't found it.

Speaker 1 (01:57:23):

Speaker 2 (01:57:25):
Yeah so.

Speaker 1 (01:57:25):
I mean, I imagine that if they ever found a body
that they might try and bring upcharges against Terry.

Speaker 2 (01:57:34):
Yeah, so I mean, Unless they got more solid,
circumstantial evidence, becauseit is possible to do new body
trials?
Yeah, and try them successfully.

Speaker 1 (01:57:45):
Or that, but at this point so far away from like 2010
.

Speaker 2 (01:57:49):
Yeah, exactly, it would need to be like a body and
the body would have to have.

Speaker 1 (01:57:53):
It seems less and less likely that they would find
other kinds of evidence.
Yeah, so yeah, or unless Chironsomehow turns up alive and was
like yeah, because that's whathappened to me.

Speaker 2 (01:58:08):
Every time a child goes missing and they don't find
the body, I think of that kidwho was kidnapped and held
hostage by the guy, and then youknow, like years and he was a
teenager, he was when he was achild, he was abducted, and then
, years later, he comes back.
What was when he was a child?
He was abducted, and then,years later, he comes back.
What was his name?
Tommy?
Uh, all right, steven, my nameis steven, or I think my name is

(01:58:29):
steven, I don't know.
His brother turned out to be aserial killer, jesus, I know.
And he died not too long after,yeah, in a motorcycle accident.
Hold on, let me.
Let me google that.

Speaker 1 (01:58:42):
But these things happen.

Speaker 2 (01:58:43):
Yeah, I mean they're rare but it's not unheard of.
Yeah, I know my first name isSteven, that was the movie, but
that's how everybody kind ofremembers it.
So he yeah, he had beenkidnapped Steven Stainer was his
name and held and kind ofraised by his kidnapper.

(01:59:07):
Yeah, to the point where hedidn't even really remember.

Speaker 1 (01:59:11):
Wasn't there also that girl who went missing and
was held for years by herkidnapper?
Yeah, there's been a few.

Speaker 2 (01:59:21):
Yeah.
So, yeah, he was abducted whenhe was seven years old, and then
that's exactly how old chironwas.
Yeah, he was uh molested and umthat's terrible pornographic
images were released.
Uh, when he was 14, thekidnapper uh abducted another
little boy, and then so stevenbuilt up the courage to like get

(01:59:44):
them out, and that's how theyfound out.
Um, so it's not unheard of, butvery rare.
Okay, we should probably stopnow, unless there's anything
else to say yeah, let's go aheadand stop.

Speaker 1 (01:59:59):
Um, we need to talk about her book.
Yeah, I'm trying to think ifthere's anything really
important to say.
Yeah, the only thing that I wassaying about those emails is
that Terry had reported that orDesiree had reported too many
names for me to keep track ofwho's who.

(02:00:20):
Desiree had reported that Terryhad sent some emails
insinuating like, like, maybeaggressive motives against terry
or kyron, and uh, kane later inan interview seemed to confirm
that maybe, that there were,were some kind of emails, but he

(02:00:41):
uh couldn't reveal what thecontents were.
And then later, later on DrPhil, he seemed to disagree that
that the emails contained thekind of content that uh, desiree
was saying that they includedand that, and that maybe he

(02:01:01):
didn't see any evidence thatthat she was like violent or
whatever towards kyron.
Um, so, yeah, and the thing, thething is that that that uh also
not saying, of course, parentsmurder their kids all the time,
yeah, but uh, she was hisprimary caregiver since he was

(02:01:26):
like a baby.
Yeah, pretty much, and so it's.
I mean, you know, this wouldhave been somebody that she
pretty much raises her own kid,right, um, yeah, and people kill
their own kids, yeah they suredo and everybody acts like it's

(02:01:49):
a surprise every time.
Yeah, I think that she'sdefinitely the main suspect.
I mean, there's no othersuspects that we can point to
right?
Yeah, and she's actedsuspiciously.
Yes, and she's actedsuspiciously yes, and she has
acted suspiciously.
We have, uh, somecircumstantial evidence, but

(02:02:10):
definitely not enough toconclusively say that she did it
, and there are definitely otherpossibilities open in this case
, yes, so okay, the book wascalled Long Haul.
And it felt like a long haul,even though it wasn't that long

(02:02:33):
of a book.

Speaker 2 (02:02:34):
It was called Long Haul Hunting the Highway Serial
Killers by Frank Figliuzzi, whowas an assistant director of the
FBI.

Speaker 1 (02:02:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:02:43):
So Rachel read the whole thing?
I have to confess I did not.
I had intended to finish ityesterday on my long ass drive
up to Albuquerque and back, butthat didn't wind up happening.
So I've only got about 50 pagesread, I would say.
So I don't have a lot to say,except that what I read I

(02:03:05):
thought was pretty good yeah, Imean, but it's not enough to get
that deep into it.

Speaker 1 (02:03:09):
I mean, it was kind of interesting.
If you want to learn about sextrafficking and especially like
sex trafficking's relationshipwith truck driving, yeah, uh, I
think that that this is a goodbook for that, and I learned

(02:03:31):
quite a bit about truckingitself.
Um, the there's not so muchstrong focus on, like the serial
killers.

Speaker 2 (02:03:44):
Um, I mean, in some ways, I I guess it's good, right
, we're focusing on the victimsand stuff of the serial killers,
yeah, but like if the the titlesuggests that there should be
more serial killer hunting.

Speaker 1 (02:03:56):
Yeah, exactly, and I thought that we were gonna see
like a focus on like yeah, likeI don't know more of an in-depth
analysis of like what this is.
What is like half of the bookis like is like him going on
like a long, whatever haul truckweek-long adventure with his

(02:04:17):
new truck driving buddy and andlearning about trucking yeah,
which is important, is important, and it was informational.
Yeah, and it seemed like funfor him.
It seems like a man's funvacation, like let's learn about
trucking.

Speaker 2 (02:04:40):
Well, it is kind of a world that I mean we pass by
these trucks every day but wedon't really know anything about
it.

Speaker 1 (02:04:46):
And how important truckers are to the economy.
Yeah, thinking about howstressful like, especially like

(02:05:10):
the produce trucking is, yeah,oh my God.
I mean he didn't talk too longabout the produce trucking
because the trucker he was withwasn't like a produce trucker.
Yeah, wasn't like a producetrucker, yeah, but he, he, he
mostly he interviewed with thisguy and then he also interviewed
with, like, an older guy whowas like a retire, retired
trucker and who had done allkinds of different trucking, and

(02:05:33):
so those were his main sourcesfor the trucking information.
And then he also, uh,interviewed with some, some
researchers who work with sextrafficking, with prostitution
in America, and particularlywith the truck stop.

(02:05:55):
Well, I don't know if theyparticularly work with the truck
stop sex trafficking, but theywere able to speak to it at
least, and that both of theseresearchers are involved in
programs that help get women outof sex trafficking situations

(02:06:15):
and get them safely out, insteadof just throwing them in jail,
which is what happens in mostcases.
And so I felt like that wasreally informative of sex

(02:06:40):
trafficking and responsibilityon the men who are clients of
these women, who, who most ofthem were minors when they
entered into this situation, andthere's a lot of emphasis on
like what went wrong with thesegirls and like like, of course,

(02:07:02):
yeah, rather than why are themen gross like that?

Speaker 2 (02:07:04):
Yeah, and why are the men gross like yeah?

Speaker 1 (02:07:05):
why are the men, gross like that.
Why do we have a globalenvironment I was gonna say this
country, but it's a globalenvironment where it's so easy
to victimize women, yeah, inthese kinds of ways.
Yeah, um, yeah, and so, but I,I I liked learning about these

(02:07:31):
researchers.
I, I liked learning about, uh,yeah, I liked learning about the
world of these sex workers.
Um, and I I did wish that I waslearning about their world from
, like, maybe one of theseresearchers directly, or from a

(02:07:52):
woman maybe.
Yeah, because I felt like maybethere is something a little bit
missing.

Speaker 2 (02:07:58):
Uh, but that would be a different book.

Speaker 1 (02:08:01):
Yeah, it would be a different book, and he did say
that one of the women that he,that he interviewed with, that
he was telling her story, thatshe is going to be writing a
book about her life and stuff.
So I thought that that wasreally good.
So I can keep an eye out forthat.
Um but, yeah, um so, but thatwasn't like I didn't not that

(02:08:31):
that isn't something that Ididn't want to learn about.
I did enjoy.
I enjoy learning about itbecause it's not like, oh, I
love learning about.
You know, uh, how these womenare are being victimized.

Speaker 2 (02:08:41):
Um, but I think anybody would think that by you
saying it, I think most peoplewould know no, I know, but I
said it was interesting I feellike I have to clarify um but,
but it wasn't interesting.

Speaker 1 (02:08:52):
But it wasn't quite what I had expected, especially,
especially because he does talkabout how some of these killers
, while many of of them, most ofthem, prosecuted, where is my
brain going?
What is my brain doing rightnow?
Well, many of them targetedlike prostitutes, right, and

(02:09:14):
that's common for killers whoare not drivers or truck drivers
or whatever, because these arevictims that are often not
missed or dismissed.
And yeah, like they talked about, um, like you talked about and

(02:09:34):
this was another thing that Ithought was annoying he was like
oh, these cops aren't treatingthis situation right.
Bad on you, fellow cops.
And it's like yeah, like thiswhole system yeah like needs to
be really reformed like um, uh,how, um, like some of these, uh,

(02:09:56):
truck driving killers targetpeople who are not prostitutes
and even like going and likebreaking into people's homes and
like trying to like snatchgirls, which is just nuts, and
that part freaked me out.
And when he was talking abouthow some some truck driver went

(02:10:17):
and like broke into somebody'shome to like snatch their
teenage daughter and like andlike because they they heard her
like make a sound and like theywoke up and both of the parents
were fighting off this driverand like they did win,
thankfully, but I went and likelocked all the doors yeah I was
like no drivers coming in get mydaughter.

(02:10:39):
But of course not that that is acommon scenario, but it's it's
very scary.

Speaker 2 (02:10:47):
Yeah, it's gonna happen.
Yeah, I remember there being aforensic file of like a truck
driver picking up a girl butyeah, overall.

Speaker 1 (02:10:57):
Um, yeah, it was, it was.
I mean, it's not bad, it justwasn't the book I expected.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:11:03):
Yeah, it's a short book and, from what I read, yes,
it was very informative andsome of the stuff I already knew
because my stepdad formerstepdad was a trucker.

Speaker 1 (02:11:13):
Yeah, I remember, you told me.

Speaker 2 (02:11:15):
Some of it made things driving on I-10 make more
sense.
Yeah, like the drivers onlygetting like a week or two of
training.
Yeah, you know, it was likethat that that tracks yeah, that
tracks.

Speaker 1 (02:11:31):
The part that uh really uh surprised me is I
didn't know that there's notenough space at truck stops for
all the drivers and they have tolike sleep on the side of the
road yeah, you see that you, oh,you don't, I forget you don't
drive.

Speaker 2 (02:11:46):
Yeah, you see them all the time, like bathroom
stops and and those little umthey look like exits but it's
not an exit.
You know what I mean?
Um, they're there and, yeah,sometimes they just pull off the
shoulder of the road they have.
I was like that's madness.
It is madness there's so manytruckers on the road.

Speaker 1 (02:12:05):
I mean that's most of the traffic on i-10 yeah, you
would think that truck stopswould be bigger business you
would think I, I, they'reeverywhere.

Speaker 2 (02:12:14):
I mean like if when you drive down i-10 there's like
truck stops on all four cornersyeah of that, of that
intersection or whatever.
You know what I mean, like theunderpass thing yeah, you know
what I mean.
Um, but yeah, there's notenough.
Yeah, no, I I expected to betold about actual serial killers
.
Like, have actual serial killerstories?

Speaker 1 (02:12:37):
yeah, mentioned, maybe he does he does a bit, but
yeah, it's, but it's not thebulk of the book.

Speaker 2 (02:12:45):
Yeah, and that's probably not his fault.
I mean, I don't think he's theone who came up with the tagline
or the messaging or whatever.
That's somebody else.

Speaker 1 (02:12:57):
But I mean it is interesting and learning about
the intersection of all of thosethings sex trafficking,
long-haul trucking and violentcrime then it's a good book to
read.

Speaker 2 (02:13:10):
Yeah, it's definitely informative.

Speaker 1 (02:13:12):
Just be aware that those other topics do feature
heavily yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:13:18):
Okay, so that was our last book.
Our next book we decided wasHelter Skelter, yep, by Vincent
Bugliozzi.
The thing here also says KurtGentry, although I never
remember that he's part of it.
But yes, so we're going to gocult.
Yep, we're going to talk aboutManson.

Speaker 1 (02:13:40):
Well, I figure, since we did kind of serial killer.
Yeah, then we can go.

Speaker 2 (02:13:46):
We can go for cults, yeah yeah, so that'll be four
episodes from now.
I think this is episode 28, sothat would be episode 32.
Yep, if we're on episode no,this has to be 28.
This has to be 28.
This has to be 28.
Okay, so it's going to beepisode 32.
Four episodes from now.
We will discuss Helter Skelter,which is a much longer book.

(02:14:09):
Yes, but we'll do it.
We'll do it.
It's almost Christmas break forme, so I'm going to, Unless I
have jury duty, in which casethat's going to suck, get the
audiobook.

Speaker 1 (02:14:19):
There has to be an audiobook of.

Speaker 2 (02:14:21):
Helter Skelter.
Oh, there is, there is a HelterSkelter.

Speaker 1 (02:14:23):
I would have thought that there was an audiobook of
Ring too.

Speaker 2 (02:14:26):
Yeah, you would have thought that, but apparently
there isn't no.
Let me double check for theaudiobook, Although I'm sure if
anybody's listening to thisthey've probably read Helter
Skelter already.

Speaker 1 (02:14:40):
It's kind of a classic.
But Ring also has the added uhcomponent of required
translation.

Speaker 2 (02:14:48):
Yes, uh, helter skelter does have an audiobook
and it is narrated by scottbrick.
That name sounds very familiar.
What has he done?
Nothing, I have read he.
He narrates the Holy Bible, ifyou're interested in that, nope

(02:15:08):
Atlas, shrugged God, that was aslog.

Speaker 1 (02:15:10):
Oh, jesus Christ.
Yeah, those are all the books.
I could put all those things ona list of books that I don't
want to read.

Speaker 2 (02:15:18):
Yeah, I mean it was interesting, but it was a lot.
That's very diplomatic of you.

Speaker 1 (02:15:26):
It was a lot.

Speaker 2 (02:15:28):
I didn't hate it.
I don't agree with her.
Yeah, at all.
I think she must have had somesecret BDSM kink going on.
But yeah, I mean it was Okay.
I'm going to say it again itwas interesting.
If you want to be part of thatdiscussion, that's a good book

(02:15:51):
to read.
Yeah, none of these.
I know they're mostly dudebooks, like Tom Clancy.

Speaker 1 (02:16:02):
Tom Clancy.
Oh, my daddy used to be a hugeTom Clancy fan.
Yeah, my grandpa was too.

Speaker 2 (02:16:07):
I've read one of his.
It's not bad.
It's kind of like a lot ofthose big authors where it's
kind of all the same, yeah, okay.
Anyway.
So Helter Skelter, next episode, and I will also be doing the
main doohickey, the main story,and I think that's it, we won't

(02:16:30):
talk anymore about privatethings.

Speaker 1 (02:16:31):
Did you read any other books?

Speaker 2 (02:16:34):
Oh, we are going to talk for that?
No, I thought we weren't.
I was going to.
Okay, just briefly, brief,brief, brief.
No, I did not.
I brought books with me.
I was attempting to reread JaneEyre on the boat.

Speaker 1 (02:16:51):
Did you finish the Exorcist?
I did not finish the Exorcist.

Speaker 2 (02:16:55):
I want to.
That is the plan.
I'm devastated.
I know that is the plan.
It's just that I didn't feellike bringing anything horrorish
on the boat.
Yeah, considering that I was ina confined space, I can
understand that, because youfreak yourself out yeah, um, so
no, I I haven't.
I haven't read anything.
I've started many.
I started to reread jane eyre,I started to reread you brought

(02:17:20):
like into the drowning deep, theDrowning Deep, no.

Speaker 1 (02:17:23):
A Joan Didion book.
It's a Darcy Coates one.

Speaker 2 (02:17:26):
No, thank you, I started a Joan Didion one and
there is, oh, I think maybe Imentioned this on the other
episode, but there is the.
Why am I blanking on the name?
Um, hold on, that is not theword.

Speaker 1 (02:17:45):
From that's the darcy coats book, gabbledon.
Uh, so not the outlander, notthe outlander, but the um lord
john series.

Speaker 2 (02:17:57):
So I I started one of those on audiobook, which I
love.
I love the audiobooks, yes, um,but no, I haven't finished any.
I have a long list.
How about you?

Speaker 1 (02:18:08):
did I talk about?
I talked about the nestlings,right, yes.
And did I talk about devils?

Speaker 2 (02:18:15):
kill devils no, did you go ahead and read that one?
I did you shit.
You're supposed to read thattogether.

Speaker 1 (02:18:23):
Oh, I, I didn't know that I was feeling vampiric.

Speaker 2 (02:18:28):
Yes, that's why I mentioned it, because I was also
feeling vampiric.
I read devils, don't tell mewhat you think of it.

Speaker 1 (02:18:34):
I won't okay.
I read devils kill devils, andI also read another vampire book
which was her dead, the lesserdead by Christopher Bowman,
which was very good yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:18:47):
I take it none of these were like that ADHD
vampire.
No, that scene pops up in myhead all the time and it's so
gross.
Which one?
Well, there are a few, but thethe shit.
No, the one where they'rehaving an orgy.
Oh yeah, the guy with the dildoon his forehead, yeah, I that

(02:19:12):
book was had so much more likesex and like poop and stuff yeah
, it's bizarre, yeah, it'sbizarro fiction um also like the
characters were like 60, butthen they act like they were
like 80 or 90.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:19:28):
I was like dude, we're not that old.
I was like my man.
Have you met a 60 year old?
Yeah, I also read DavidCopperfield.
Oh, yeah, you mentioned that.

Speaker 2 (02:19:39):
We're supposed to be reading that together.
I haven't finished that one yet.

Speaker 1 (02:19:42):
Well, I was like I want to read this book before
the end of the year so.
I was like it's a monster.

Speaker 2 (02:19:48):
Yeah, that's an awesome accomplishment.

Speaker 1 (02:19:50):
Yeah, and.

Speaker 2 (02:19:51):
I wish I had that kind of drive.

Speaker 1 (02:19:55):
And it was pretty decent.
Yeah, it was pretty decent.
Ancient complaints to CharlesDickens about doing what he
preaches, treating women the waythat he preaches, yeah, but

(02:20:16):
other than that, yeah, I prettyenjoyed it, and some of the
characters were even quitedelightful.
Um the god, I already forgetthe names of the characters.
Mr uh mccauber mr mcauber, isthat his name?
The dude who he, he goes?

(02:20:40):
He, he's this man who cannotmanage his finances, for shit,
and he is always getting himselfinto immense amounts of debt.
And he is very eloquent andalways goes off on these long
speeches, yeah, speeches, yeah,and, and at at near the end,

(02:21:10):
like he, he, he gets his heroicmoment where he, he gets to
reveal his proof about the, thebad guy that he's.
He's been, um, doing all thesebad things without going too
much into it.
Yeah, and, and he has thisridiculously long and
excessively wordy letter.
He even refers to himself asShakespearean and it's hilarious

(02:21:32):
.
Yeah, so Anything else?
The Exorcist we mentioned, sothat is it.
Yep, Okay, just those fivebooks we mentioned, so that is
it.

Speaker 2 (02:21:45):
Yeah, okay, just those like we have some movies
we're gonna watch, some the mallchopping or whatever that one
was.
Yeah, the mall chopping yeah,are we?
Gonna watch vamps?
Yeah, we can watch vamps if wecan find it.
Yeah, for sure.
So we're gonna.
We're gonna watch some weirdhorror?
Yep, I guess yay, and also ring, because I've never watched it
right we're gonna, and we'regonna.

Speaker 1 (02:22:04):
We're going to watch some weird horror, yep.

Speaker 2 (02:22:05):
I guess Yay and also Ring because I've never watched
it Right.

Speaker 1 (02:22:08):
And we're going to watch the Ring and Ringu both
versions, yeah, both versions.
But we are going to read thebook first.

Speaker 2 (02:22:14):
Yes, we are, so that we can bitch, about how
different it is.
Yes, Okay, all right.

Speaker 1 (02:22:20):
You're going to have a whole different perspective
from it than me, though, becauseI saw the movie when I was like
13.

Speaker 2 (02:22:28):
Yeah, so Okay.
Well, that's exciting.

Speaker 1 (02:22:31):
Yeah, it is exciting, okay, so but also the movie
that I'm familiar with right the.
American version is based offof the Japanese movie, which is
based off of the Japanese book.

Speaker 2 (02:22:44):
Okay, oh, so it's got layers.
Yes, it does have layers.
Like rings, yeah, so it'll.
There you go.
It'll probably be like a gameof telephone, yeah, you know.
Yeah, that's how I think oftranslations sometimes.
Anyway, it doesn't matter, okay.
Okay, so Helter Skelter is ournext one.

(02:23:05):
Yep, and thank you forlistening.
Please follow us on Instagram,facebook.
You can do both our personaland our podcast.
You can email us.
All of that information is downin the box, description box or
whatever it's called, and wewould love to hear from you.

(02:23:26):
Okay, so, all right, we willtalk to you later.
Yep, bye.

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