When Blackmail Bites Back: The Murder of Gary Triano

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Kiki and I'm Rachel, and this is.
Details Are Sketchy, a truecrime podcast, and we are on
episode what 19?
19.

Speaker 2 (00:10):
All right, so one more episode and we do our book
Moving Right.

Speaker 1 (00:12):
Along what Moving.

Speaker 2 (00:15):
Right Along.
We are Moving Right Along.
Is somebody out there who haslistened to all 19 of our
episodes?
If so, send us a shout out onsocial media or in our email, if
you want to.
That would be cool and let usknow, because it would be great
to hear from you.

Speaker 1 (00:34):
Yeah, it would be.
You're doing the missing personand I'm doing the case right.
Yes, awesome.

Speaker 2 (00:40):
Should I kick it off with our missing person?
Sure, okay, so I've got a bitof a cold case.
Her name is Shanice Harris.
She went missing on May 29,2017 from Rock Hill.
She is a black biracial womanborn February 2, 1986.

(01:03):
So she would be 36 years old.
Her hair is brown.
Her eyes are brown.
She has light brown skin.
Her height was approximately isapproximately 5'8".
Her weight at last seenapproximately 260 pounds.

(01:25):
Harris has a tattoo on herright forehand that reads sparks
with a z and a tattoo on herleft arm of hands folded in
prayer that reads rest in peace.
So the fbi is offering a rewardof up to $10,000 for
information leading to an arrestin this case.

(01:47):
She was last seen in Rock Hill,new York, in Sullivan County,
on May 29th 2017 and has notbeen heard from since, and I'll
have a little bit more detailsabout her after the case.

Speaker 1 (02:02):
Cool beanies.
Why did I say cool beanies?
I?
Don't know, I have no idea,it's not cool beans no no, it's
not, I just meant.
I don't know what I meant.

Speaker 2 (02:14):
I'm tired I guess I meant cool beans that you will
tell us more.

Speaker 1 (02:20):
Yes, yeah, I don't know.
I've been looking at a lot ofinstagram lately, surprise,
surprise, and so it's got alllike the 80s, 90s, early 2000s
um slang and stuff, and so, likeI've been using a lot of it for
some reason like.
Thank you, rachel, for thatinformation exactly that's
exactly what I meant, not coolbeans that the poor woman is

(02:43):
missing.

Speaker 2 (02:43):
Yeah, of course.

Speaker 1 (02:46):
Okay, so I have the murder of Gary Triano.
I have Pamela Phillips writtenhere, but she's the killer and
that's not really given muchaway.
I don't think.
Yeah, if you don't know thiscase, you probably haven't been
watching True Crime.
No-transcript, arizona.

(03:40):
As far as the gambling goes,the bingo halls and stuff that
was primarily on indigenouscasinos at the time, that'll be
important a little bit later.
So his friend and businesspartner, rusty Sands, which I
think is a great name, describedhim as being very self-assured,

(04:01):
flamboyant.
He liked to be the center ofattention and was a lot of fun
to be around.
In 1985, gary catches the eye ofpamela phillips.
I'm gonna call her pam for therest of this.
She was a local real estateagent and fairly successful, I
believe.
She walked into therelationship with about two

(04:21):
million dollars herself, so soshe was fairly good at her job
At the time.
She was newly divorced from herfirst husband and she's out
socializing with Gary at partiesthat are thrown by him and his
wife.
Gary and Pam become friends.
Rusty Sands says in theAmerican Greed episode that Gary

(04:46):
was smitten by her and theysoon began an affair.
Within months of starting theaffair, gary divorced his first
wife, with whom he had twochildren.
So less than a year after thedivorce, he and Pam got married
in a lavish ceremony on a yachtin San Diego.
Must be nice to have a lot ofmoney.

Speaker 2 (05:04):
Well, sure, that's why everybody wants a lot of
money.
Well, sure, that's whyeverybody wants a lot of money,
right, mm-hmm?

Speaker 1 (05:10):
Well, yeah, but I mean to just go on a yacht and
get married.

Speaker 2 (05:15):
Yeah, I don't know if I want to get, I just want.
Well, anyway, continue,otherwise we're going to go off
on a tangent about money and allthat.
Those kinds of things.
Yeah, no, I know.

Speaker 1 (05:28):
I mean, I don't know that I'd want a yacht
necessarily I'm just saying itwould be nice to have the option
.

Speaker 2 (05:34):
Yeah, it's nice to have options.

Speaker 1 (05:36):
Yes, very true, in a jet-setting, high-style type of
life, they purchased a home inTucson's affluent skyline
country club where they hostedtheir wealthy and famous friends
, including want to take a stabAt the rich asshole of the 80s

(05:57):
and I say rich asshole becausehe is an asshole- Rich asshole.
No, no, no, sure you do, ronaldReagan no no, no, like rich, or
he claimed to be rich.
Let's say, his daddy loaned hima million dollars.

Speaker 2 (06:15):
There you go I was thinking trump, but I was like
it can't be trump of course it'strump.

Speaker 1 (06:22):
yes, god, yeah, okay, so yeah, okay.

Speaker 2 (06:25):
So, um, I was gonna.
I was gonna say, why would yoube rich and choose to live in
Tucson?
But now that you said they werefriends with Trump, it's all
coming together.

Speaker 1 (06:37):
Why would that come together?

Speaker 2 (06:39):
I don't know Tucson, Tucson, Arizona Douchebags.

Speaker 1 (06:49):
In Arizona.
We're sorry to anybody inArizona no there's plenty of
nice people in Arizona, but itsounds like Gary wasn't like a
terrible person.

Speaker 2 (07:00):
Wealth plus Arizona plus Trump conveys a certain
image.
Yeah, okay.

Speaker 1 (07:10):
It doesn't mean that they were necessarily friends,
but if you wanted to be anybody,you had to hang out with Trump.
I don't know.
I don't know why I'm trying tojustify their friendship with
Trump.
I'm really not Okay.
They also had some expensivecars, obviously.

Speaker 2 (07:26):
Being a dick doesn't mean that it's okay to be
murdered.

Speaker 1 (07:31):
No, I don't think anybody thought that.

Speaker 2 (07:34):
Okay, I'm just throwing it out there.
Somebody might think that Ithink that True.

Speaker 1 (07:40):
I don't understand why people don't just think the
best of others, just assumesomebody means it in the nicest
way possible.

Speaker 2 (07:48):
I don't want to see people murdered, even if they
are big dicks.

Speaker 1 (07:52):
Yes, okay, okay.
But their fortune turns whenthe real estate market crashes.
Gary was highly leveraged, sowhen real estate values dropped,
he owed more than he was worth.
Gary then turned, because Godonly knows why, but then he

(08:13):
turned to heavier investment ingaming.
However, he has this managementcompany that dealt with tribal
bingo halls.
Remember I mentioned that he wasinto the Indian casino gambling
specifically, right?
Was he indigenous?
No, it's coming, it's coming,okay.
So as the management companyfor the tribal bingo halls, he's

(08:38):
able to skim a percentage offall receipts.
So, in other words, he'sentitled to some of the money.
But in the early 1990s,arizona's gaming laws changed so
that indigenous tribes couldretain all income from gaming on
their reservations.
So, in other words, between thereal estate bust and the fact

(09:01):
that he essentially loses mostof his gaming receipts, yeah,
his income plummets 93% in oneyear and continued to decline.
So Gary still owed a lot ofmoney, and a lot of it, to some

(09:21):
not so great people Like.
Apparently he wasn't gettinginvestment from banks
necessarily.
He was getting them from somequestionable individuals, right,
including a group from Mexicoor northern Mexico.
They didn't say what group.
I got the idea that it wasprobably mafia or drug gang or

(09:47):
something along those lines,because the attorney of that
group said that the group wouldlikely kill Gary if he filed for
bankruptcy rather than payingthem.
Gary filed bankruptcy anyway in1994 with an estimated $26
million in debt.
Oh rich people.

Speaker 2 (10:08):
In today's money.
He does sound like Trump'sfriend.

Speaker 1 (10:15):
So he had an estimated $26 million in debt.
In today's money that's about$55 million today.

Speaker 2 (10:21):
How are all these rich fucks allowed to file
bankruptcy?
But students cannot filebankruptcy on our student loans.

Speaker 1 (10:29):
That's awful yeah, it is awful because I know regular
people can file bankruptcy,like a relative of mine filed
bankruptcy or somebody they knowfiled bankruptcy.
But yeah, not specifically foryour student loans, no, okay.
So pamela didn't know theextent of the financial trouble

(10:50):
that gary was in.
They wind up visiting abankruptcy attorney together and
that is where she discoveredthat gary is nothing like what
he portrays himself to be, sohe's really not that jet-setting
car-owning.
I mean, he owns those thingsbut he doesn't really have the
money, like he's in debt.

Speaker 2 (11:12):
But he did have the money before, though right I'm
not sure.

Speaker 1 (11:15):
It implied that he didn't necessarily have the
money, Like he kept borrowingmoney, which is partly why he
was in debt in the first place.
Okay, Kind of like Trump.
Actually, you should watch thatAmerican Greed episode.
It's very illuminating.
Anyway.
So he has 74 pending lawsuits.
He owes his attorney $97,000.

(11:39):
He owed his former wife $1.8million Wow.
He owed his former wife $1.8million.
Wow.
And he owed significant otherdebts and has, of course, no way
to pay any of it.

Speaker 2 (11:56):
Imagine just being able to just borrow $1.8 million
.
It's just like you know.
I don't know if you're a whiteguy in a suit.

Speaker 1 (12:05):
Yeah, yeah, I know you can do a lot.
You can.
Maybe that's what we need to do.
Maybe we need to strap ourboobs and and our hips and go
walk into a bank and be like Iwant a million bucks to you once
he I'm sorry, once pamdiscovers all of this, she files
for divorce and it's finalizedin about a month In the

(12:27):
agreement, the divorce agreement.
She got the house and therelationship, which apparently
had been quite lovely up to thediscovery of the debt, then
turned truly bad and she windsup selling the house without
telling him not that she neededto, since she technically owned

(12:48):
it, and she recoups the proceedswhich was, I think they said,
something like $300,000, andleft Tucson with their children
to go to, I think, aspen.
We'll talk about that in aminute.
Then, on November 1st 1996,gary is playing golf.
I should say just so thingsaren't confusing, because I was
confused at the time this wholedivorce, finding out about the

(13:12):
finances thing, that's in 1994.
And she absconds in 1994 withher two children.
I guess it's really notabsconding because it's
perfectly legal, but whatever.

Speaker 2 (13:22):
Abscond is a fun word .

Speaker 1 (13:23):
It is a fun word to say.
So this is now Novembermber 1st1996, so roughly two years
later gary is playing golf atthe la ploma country club.
So it turns out, gary, likemany of us, is a creature of
habit and he golfed at aparticular place at a particular
time with a particular group ofpeople or person.

(13:46):
Now he owed the club a lot ofpast dues, so it was unlikely
that he would be playing again.
In other words, that day wouldhave been the last day that he
would have been playing.
Okay, he played 18 holes andthen he walks to his car, and
he'd done that many times before.
But on that day there wassomeone watching and that person

(14:11):
had placed a blue bag on thecar's passenger seat.
Authorities believe that Garyreached over to pick up the bag
and it exploded.
He was killed instantly.
Detective James Gamber of thePima County Sheriff's Office was
on the scene and begancollecting evidence.
He described the scene as theroof of the car had been torn

(14:36):
off the car from the force ofthe explosion and had been
riddled with holes from theshrapnel.

Speaker 2 (14:43):
So whether or not he had picked up the bag, he
probably would have gotten itanyways, probably.

Speaker 1 (14:49):
The panels were blown out, the rear window and the
windshield were also blown out.
They actually recovered thewindshield in a swimming pool 70
feet away.
But it wasn't just that it went70 feet, it had to go at least
20 feet in the air because therewere trees that were about 20
feet tall and it sailed overthem in somebody's pool.

Speaker 2 (15:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:15):
The bomb squad determined that the explosive
device was a simple one.
It was a pipe bomb that wasinitiated by a remote control.
The remote had to be within aquarter mile of it of the bomb.

Speaker 2 (15:27):
Oh snap, so somebody was watching him and set it off.

Speaker 1 (15:30):
Yes, Rumors about who was responsible flew around
town, including that it was amob hit right it was.
I don't know if it's fairlywell known that he was in with
some disreputable people.

Speaker 2 (15:43):
I just realized that one of my nail polishes popped
off.
Oh, no.

Speaker 1 (15:48):
It popped off in one whole piece, see oh yeah, I
don't think I've seen your blankfingers in a long time.
They're naked.
They're naked.
I don't think I've seen minenaked in a long time either.
Rumors are flying around town.
A lot of people think it's amob hit right.
Gary borrowed a lot of moneyfrom some very questionable

(16:10):
sources.
Also, given that Gary worked inthe gaming world and that the
bombing was a gangland style ofmurder, police did think that it
could actually be organizedcrime, like it wasn't just
people doing conspiracy theoryshit.
They really did think it couldbe that.
However, they don't just lookat organized crime.

(16:34):
They also look closer to homefor suspects, as they should.
A detective interviewed Pam inher home in Aspen.
So yeah, I was right.
So she left Tucson a coupleyears before after the divorce
home in Aspen.
So yeah, I was right.
So she left Tucson a coupleyears before after the divorce
moves to Aspen.
Detective in Aspen interviewsher Did.

Speaker 2 (16:52):
Pam make a pipe bomb?

Speaker 1 (16:54):
We'll see.
The detective said that she wasused to money, used to having
it and was struggling to getback on her feet.
But he also said that she wasvery cooperative and even sat
down with him without complainton three different occasions and

(17:14):
in those conversations in theinvestigation up to that point
there really wasn't any evidenceto connect her to the murder
evidence to connect her to themurder.
Now she did receive $2 millionfrom a life insurance policy two
months after Gary's death,after eight months.
The case goes cold for 10 yearsuntil the Tucson police get a

(17:40):
fresh lead.

Speaker 2 (17:42):
That $2 million basically pays off his debt to
her.

Speaker 1 (17:50):
No, it would pay off the debt to the original wife.

Speaker 2 (17:53):
Oh, okay, I thought it was the same wife, no
different wife Okay my bad.
Then I thought I did somethingthere.

Speaker 1 (17:59):
No, no, in 1994, two years before the murder.
Okay, so we're going back again.
Pam had moved the two kidsusing that $300,000 she made
from selling the house and movedto a very affluent neighborhood
in Aspen.
So not only did she move to oneof the most expensive places in

(18:20):
the United States, she decidesinstead of going to someplace
fairly reasonably priced she'sgoing to affluent.
She's going somewhere bougie,bougie, very bougie.
So she needed to find a way tomake ends meet, and she did that
by relying on her friends andmaking alliances with wealthy
people, establishing herself asa realtor.

(18:42):
Remember, she had been arealtor in her past life.
Establishing herself as that inAspen was harder than she had
expected and her lifestyleexceeded her means being rich or
pretending to be rich soundsexhausting.

Speaker 2 (18:56):
It does sound exhausting.

Speaker 1 (19:00):
I mean being living paycheck to paycheck is
exhausting but in a verydifferent way.

Speaker 2 (19:04):
Yes, in a different way, like all that networking,
all that schmoozing, all thatpretense.
I know, I don't know if I cando it.

Speaker 1 (19:12):
No, I could never be in the business world.
I could never do anything thatwould require that.
That's probably why I am whereI am in my career.
I'm not a schmoozer.
Maybe in my next marriage I'llmarry a schmoozer and he can do
it for me.
Right, that's the way to goyeah, it's too late for me you

(19:37):
fell in love with an even moreintroverted person I know, I
know we're both allergic toschmoozing.
Yes, Okay, so her lifestyleexceeded her means and her
passion actually isn't with thereal estate business, but with a
startup business online.
Right, this is the 90s calledStarBabiescom.

(19:59):
You want to take a guess whatthat is?
It's baby celebrities?
No, no, it's baby celebrities?

Speaker 2 (20:05):
No, no, different kind of stars, like stars in the
sky.
Really, is it an astronomyclass, not astronomy?

Speaker 1 (20:17):
You're thinking too, astrology, oh.

Speaker 2 (20:22):
Jesus Christ.

Speaker 1 (20:23):
Yeah, it was a website.

Speaker 2 (20:25):
I aimed aim too high.

Speaker 1 (20:26):
You did aim too high it was a website where she
claimed uh, she or whoever couldpredict the future of newborns.
Oh god so there are babiesinvolved, but not in the, not in
that way okay, yeah, pambelieved that the fledgling
company could grow to be worthmillions, but she couldn't do it

(20:49):
alone.
And, um, in case anybody'swondering, I did check
starbabiescom does not existanymore.
So if you want to start, so ifwe want to start our own one,
our own one predicting thefutures of newborns Nice, that
URL is available.
So she enlists the help of herneighbor, a self-described

(21:19):
business consultant named RonYoung.
The two also begin a romanticrelationship, even though Ron
was not the kind of man that Pamusually went after.
He was described as beingunsophisticated, unattractive
and not wealthy, but she wasclearly getting something out of

(21:39):
the relationship.
In addition to business help,she leaned on Ron when it came
to her troubled relationshipwith her ex Gary.
She complained about Garyincessantly.
She complained that he didn'tpay her enough in child support
or spousal maintenance.
Ron considered himself aproblem solver and a fixer, so

(22:01):
he would come up so did he not?

Speaker 2 (22:02):
pay the court ordered amount, or did he pay that
amount, but she didn't think itwas enough uh, it didn't specify
, but I would assume he probablycouldn't even make the regular
payment.

Speaker 1 (22:15):
Okay, I mean, technically, I think the court's
supposed to look at your income, but that was it, was it?

Speaker 2 (22:23):
a reasonable amount, or was it like, because I see
some of those like celebrity,like child support payments and
they're ridiculous I know.

Speaker 1 (22:33):
Well, I don't know.
I don't know if they, becausehe went bankrupt right, so I
don't know if, if they based itoff of like prior lifestyle
together, or if they based it onhis actual income, I can't
imagine that they would make itso terribly high that he
wouldn't have the money to payit Right.
So she either felt like hewasn't paying, it wasn't paying

(22:54):
it on time, or that she felt hecould pay more, but he just
wasn't telling the court, orsomething like that.
I get the feeling.
No matter how much he paid her,he, she wouldn't think it was
enough though.
So Ron again considered himselfa problem solver and a fixer,
so he would come up with wayswhere she could I'm sorry, he

(23:16):
could solve the problem with herex.
Uh, or she could solve theproblem with her ex.
He called it the 800 poundgorilla problem.
They didn't go on to explainprecisely what he meant by that.
That's just what he called itapparently.
But by April 1996, things wentsour in their relationship.
Two of Ron's other clientsreported him for fraud and Pam

(23:40):
followed suit, reporting topolice that Ron was also ripping
her off in her Star Baby'sbusiness.
The Aspen police tried tolocate Ron but he was already
gone.
He was charged with two countsof theft and two counts of
forgery and a warrant was issuedfor his arrest.
Police in Aspen get a call fromYorba Linda, California.

(24:04):
Ron's rental van had been foundparked near his parents home.
Detective crawley of the aspenpolice flew to california and
searched the van.
Apparently ron had gone to tryand get the van back and then
the people there said the policewere on their way and so ron

(24:24):
just took off, yeah, and leftthe van, and so the detective
was able to search it.
He found business documentsfrom star babies and divorce
paperwork between gary and pam.
There's was also a map oftucson as well as hotel receipts
from tucson, a Arizona licenseplate, a taser and a shotgun.

(24:47):
Detective Crawley didn't knowwhat to do with that information
until two weeks later when heheard about a car bombing murder
in Tucson, Arizona.
You're right.
Crawley called the Tucsonauthorities to tell them what he
found.
So police I mean, obviouslythey can't find Ron, he's in the

(25:07):
wind.
So the police go to questionPam, right, so they've already.
I think my understanding isthey didn't question her a
fourth time when they found outthis information about her
relationship with Ron.
That was one of the three times.
That's my understanding andthat was one of the three times.

Speaker 2 (25:22):
That's my understanding.

Speaker 1 (25:24):
So when the police question her she minimizes her
relationship with Ron, sayingthat he just did a little
financial work for her, sodenying the romantic connection.
And at that point I don't knowthat they had any reason to
think otherwise?

Speaker 2 (25:40):
Well, and if they did , they would probably play it
close to the chest.

Speaker 1 (25:44):
Yeah, when they get the receipts, those hotel
receipts, they find that Ron hadbeen in Tucson in June and July
for 18 days, so not Novemberwhen the murder happened, but
months earlier.
Now they can't put him inTucson in November of that year.
As I just said, they wanted toask why he was in Tucson, since
he didn't have any ties there,so there's no family or friends

(26:11):
for him to visit, or he didn'tseem to have any other reason to
be there, so it didn't seemlike he was going to be there
for touristy reasons or businessor anything.
But again they couldn't find him.
He was in the wind Going backto a few months after the murder
.
Right Pam took her $2 millionfrom the life insurance and
bought a house in Meadowood,which was, or is, a subdivision
outside of Aspen.

(26:32):
She remodeled the house andstarted living the lifestyle
that she had become accustomedto.

Speaker 2 (26:39):
She had become accustomed to.
I want to live a lifestyle I'vebecome accustomed to.

Speaker 1 (26:46):
I know right.
Oh, it's raining.
Can you hear that?

Speaker 2 (26:52):
Yes, yeah, that's why I was looking out the window.

Speaker 1 (26:55):
Well, if you can hear all that stuff, it's raining
here in New Mexico for probablythe first time in Ever.
Yeah, okay, so she's back tosocializing.
I'm sorry to her jet settinglifestyle.
She's socializing, and whenthey said that I was like how is
that an upscale lifestyle?

(27:16):
Poor people socialize too.
I assume they meant that shewent like upscale socializing
she.
She skied a lot and that is avery expensive sport and she
became known as a social jetsetter.
She moved in social circleswith really wealthy people.
When Gary's case was looked atagain, nine years later

(27:39):
according to Gainbur now, if youdon't remember him, he was the
original investigator in tucsonthey had been able to eliminate
every possible suspect exceptfor one and that was ron.
Young gamber reached out toamerica's most wanted and
convinced them to do a segmenton ron and it aired.
On november 19th 2005 ron'schiropractor recognized him and

(28:05):
called into America's MostWanted.
Apparently, ron had a standingappointment with that
chiropractor and when he walkedinto the office, or was going to
walk into the office, thepolice arrested him.
He was taken in on fraudcharges those ones from the 90s.
He denied involvement.

(28:28):
When they talked to him aboutthe murder, he gave police
consent to search his car, hishome and his storage locker.
I think it was in the storagelocker.
They didn't say for sure, butI'm pretty sure that's what they
were talking about.
They found four large boxes ofevidence.

Speaker 2 (28:45):
Ooh rubby rub Did Rob make the bomb and Pam planted
it.

Speaker 1 (28:49):
Well, we're getting to that.
There were a lot of paperrecords, a computer and some
microcassettes.
That was a blast to the past.

Speaker 2 (28:58):
Do you remember those mini ones?

Speaker 1 (29:01):
They should bring that back.
The police put one of themicrocassettes in a recorder.
Yes, yeah, we should bring thatback.
The police put one of themicrocassettes in a recorder and
they hear Ron talking to Pam.
In total they find recordingsof 500 phone calls and 100
emails between them over aneight-year period.
The topics were wide-ranging,but they mostly talk about money

(29:26):
.
The police are able to see thatPam is paying her ex-boyfriend
Ron in cash on a regular basis.
In some exchanges the amount ofmoney they discuss totaled the
amount she would have receivedfrom Gary's life insurance
policy.
Again, that was two milliondollars.
So like she would say somethinglike, or he would, she'd say

(29:46):
something like well, there's twomillion and I got 1.6 million,
so there's 400,000 for blah,blah, blah, whatever, right.
So two million.
So they never say anythingabout a murder in these cases.
It's strongly suggested.

(30:06):
So she sends him the money,generally via fedex, and then
sends him the tracking numbers.
He recorded all of it,obviously the phone calls, but
all the tracking numbers.

Speaker 2 (30:19):
400,000 is what she's paying him.
We're getting to that Okay.

Speaker 1 (30:24):
So he kept all of it.
He kept recordings, he keptspreadsheets.
The payments went on for aboutoh, ronnie, ron, yeah, how did
you do that?
Yeah, the payments went on forabout 10 years and the police
were able to prove 44transactions between the two of
them.
So, yeah, I was thinking that Iwas like keeping the documents

(30:44):
is either really stupid orreally smart, because it's smart
in the sense that he might.
I guess he can turn it back onher.
Exactly, I think that was histhought process.
However, if there's nodocumentation, there's no proof
right Of anything of anything,of anything.

(31:10):
Okay.
So the tapes also showed thattheir relationship, such as it
was, was deteriorating.
Pam was getting behind onpayments and they were
disagreeing about the amountthat they had originally agreed
upon, which should have beenabout 400 000, he mentioned he
intended to blackmail her that's.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure he did.
I'm pretty sure he was like,well, it may be ending, but if
you don't keep giving me moneyI'll turn you in.

(31:30):
Yeah, he mentioned that shewould be sitting in prison for
murder if she didn't pay.
The authorities can't puteither pam or ron at scene and
they cannot prove that eithermade the bomb.
But between the emails, phonecalls, transactions and FedEx
stuff, they have enoughcircumstantial evidence to

(31:53):
charge them.
On October 16, 2008, ron and Pamare indicted on first-degree
murder charges.
Pam may have been indicted formurder, but she was living
openly in Lugano, switzerland.
She had gone to visit herdaughter who was going to
college there and began at thetime dating a wealthy man who

(32:17):
was living in the area, so thathad given her reason to stay.
So whether or not she knew shehad been indicted I'm not sure,
but anyway.
Uh, it's important to note, incase y'all don't know, that
switzerland, like many europeancountries, won't extradite if
the accused could face the deathpenalty.
So this is arizona in the early2000 even now, death penalty

(32:43):
state.
So the death penalty wasdropped in this case.
However, the announcement thatit would be dropped was made
publicly, so Pam was able to runagain before the police got
there.
So police in both countries theUS and Switzerland worked

(33:05):
together to try and find her.
Meanwhile, ron stands trialaccused of conspiring with Pam
to kill Gary.
The prosecution's case rides onthe recordings between him and
Pam she should have just facedtrial.

Speaker 2 (33:21):
That was her leverage to not have the death penalty.

Speaker 1 (33:24):
Well she still wouldn't have the death penalty.
Well, she still wouldn't havethe death penalty Because
otherwise, even if they foundher, they wouldn't extradite her
.
Maybe she's not in Switzerlandanymore?
Yeah, most European countrieswon't.
She would have stayed in aEuropean country or any country
that wouldn't have extradited.

Speaker 2 (33:41):
I thought you were saying that's a unique trait to
Switzerland.

Speaker 1 (33:46):
No, it's a lot of European countries, okay.

Speaker 2 (33:50):
That's good clarification.
Yes, Sorry.

Speaker 1 (33:54):
Okay, so the prosecution's case against Ron
rides on the recordings betweenhim and Pam.
In an interview with AmericanGreed, ron claims that his
innocent, that he is innocent.
God, I can't read my own typinghere, okay, ron claims his
innocence, which is no surprise,since they all do.
Ron claims his innocence, whichis no surprise, since they all

(34:15):
do.
And he claims he left Aspen in1996 to go on a long driving
vacation with his son and wasnot fleeing fraud charges.
He didn't know about them orthat they were going to happen.
He said he didn't go back toface the charges because he
didn't think it was that big ofa deal.

(34:36):
He says the two million thatsounds like rich people stuff.
Yeah, but I don't think he wasactually rich.

Speaker 2 (34:43):
He wasn't.
No, okay, fine, steal.

Speaker 1 (34:47):
Yeah, okay.
So he claims his innocence.
He says that he's on thatvacation with his son.
He's not fleeing the fraudcharges.
He doesn't go back because hedoesn't think it's that big of a
deal.
And he says the $2 million theydiscussed on the tapes were
about equity Pam had tied up ina San Diego real estate

(35:08):
development, not the $2 millionfrom the life insurance policy
life insurance policy he claimed.
I don't think I wrote this downhere, but I think what they were
trying to say is that he didall of the work that needed to
be done by various people sothat she wouldn't have to pay

(35:29):
all these different people to dothat work for her.
And because he did all of thatwork, she owed him money, right,
and that is what her.
Yeah, and because he did all ofthat work, she owed him money
Right, and that is what he'sclaiming.
That's the $400,000 or whatever.
But with all the other stuffthey talk about on the tapes,
that doesn't seem likely.
Ultimately, ron was convictedand sentenced to two life

(35:52):
sentences one for conspiracy tocommit first-degree murder and
one for first-degree murder.
Okay, so those are two separatecharges, so keep that in mind.

Speaker 2 (36:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (36:02):
Okay, oh no, I just said it.
So, yeah, two life sentences.
So a life sentence for thefirst-degree murder charge and a
life sentence for theconspiracy to commit
first-degree murder.

Speaker 2 (36:14):
I missed it, but they didn't find any evidence that
he built a bomb or that they hadsupplies to build a bomb or
anything like that.

Speaker 1 (36:23):
No, they never did that.
It's all circumstantial.

Speaker 2 (36:25):
And did they ever place either of them, like you
know, around or at no?

Speaker 1 (36:31):
No, they placed Ron there a few months before for 18
days with no reason to be there.

Speaker 2 (36:35):
I mean, I figure that he came to build the bomb.

Speaker 1 (36:40):
Well, we're not done yet, Okay, okay.
So, as for Pam, we've got theAmerican police involved, right,
but we've also got Interpol andthe Geneva police, and they are
able to track her down toLichtenstein and then into
Vienna where she was finallyarrested.
She goes back to the US in July2010.

(37:03):
She's booked on charges ofmurder and conspiracy to commit
murder, I believe first-degreecharges, just like Ron, and her
trial began February 18th 2014.
That's a long time.
Four years, yeah it 2014.
That's a long time.
Four years, yeah, it is.
That's a long time.

Speaker 2 (37:23):
For the whole time she was just chilling in Europe.

Speaker 1 (37:26):
No, she came back in the States in 2010.
Oh, okay, so part of thedefense was that not only was
Pam not paying the premium onthe insurance policy, a friend
was.
So they're saying there's tworeasons.
They're saying that theinsurance wasn't the motive for

(37:48):
murder, that she had Right,because everybody's saying it's
because she went with the money.
That's why, she offed her exthey're saying.
Two things make that unlikely.
Number one is that she wasn'tthe one paying the premium on
the insurance.
Also, she I believe the friendforgot to make the payment the

(38:10):
month before the murder, right?
So meaning, if you're planningon killing somebody for their
life insurance policy, do youpay the premium.
Wouldn't you make sure you paidthat premium so that it doesn't
get canceled, right?
Right, she didn't do that, soshe must not have killed him for

(38:30):
the insurance.
That's their argument.
That's one of their arguments.

Speaker 2 (38:35):
So busy playing the murder that she forgot yeah, but
you would still think you would.

Speaker 1 (38:41):
I mean, that's kind of an important it is important,
but I don't know.

Speaker 2 (38:45):
I can see that happening yeah, no, I could
someone who forgets things.

Speaker 1 (38:53):
Okay, so the defense team also had some new tests
done, because this is over adecade later, right?
Almost two decades later, right?
So they get these new testsdone.
On the bomb fragments thatkilled Gary, they were able to
find trace amounts of DNA, whichexcluded Ron, who was the

(39:17):
person the prosecution saidbuilt the bomb.

Speaker 2 (39:20):
Yeah, that's who, I thought, built the bomb.

Speaker 1 (39:23):
They also present an alternate suspect, neil McNeese,
who Gary ripped off for about$80,000.
He was a heroin addict, but hewas also a trust fund kid with a
lot of money.
So my argument against thatwould be if he's a trust fund
kid with millions of dollars.

Speaker 2 (39:43):
Why does he give a shit about?

Speaker 1 (39:44):
$80,000?
Exactly, but the defense claimsthat that $80,000, plus the
fact that he was a heroin addict, plus just the principle right,
the fact that he got ripped offBecause he's a heroin addict.

Speaker 2 (39:57):
That makes him more violent.

Speaker 1 (39:59):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (40:00):
You don't think that heroin, like you know, would?
Not necessarily make youviolent, because doesn't it make
you just want to lay around?

Speaker 1 (40:11):
I don't know if they were arguing that it makes him
more violent or just trying tosay he's a disreputable
character.
Oh okay, disreputable man,that's bullshit.
It is bullshit.
But you want a defense attorneywho's willing to do that.

Speaker 2 (40:26):
Yeah, I don't like it .
I don't have to like it, though.

Speaker 1 (40:29):
No, you don't have to like it, but it is a technique
and you, as a defense defenseattorney, have an obligation to
use it.

Speaker 2 (40:39):
I mean just the same kind of technique that they use
with like saying like, oh, likethese people listen to heavy
metal and shit like that.

Speaker 1 (40:46):
Well, yeah, it's also the same shit they do when a
woman's been raped.
Yeah yeah, it's trash.
They're playing to the jury'smoral prejudices and it's
annoying, but it is an effectivedefense.

Speaker 2 (41:03):
It perpetuates stereotypes about drug addiction
.

Speaker 1 (41:06):
It does, but the defense claims that he was angry
enough to get someone to killGary, one to kill gary.
Mcneese's doctor did testifythat he had threatened, or had
mentioned that.
He threatened to kill gary on anumber of occasions, but also,
uh, the prosecution was like thedebt occurred in 1991.

(41:29):
So why wait five years?
Why wait till 1996 to kill theguy?
Right, right, good point.
Mcneese died of an overdose in2002 and had never been
investigated by the Tucsonpolice.

Speaker 2 (41:42):
Did he have a history of any other kind of violent
crime?
I have no idea.

Speaker 1 (41:49):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (41:50):
Any kind of reason to suspect that he would know how
to build a pipe bomb.

Speaker 1 (41:56):
No, but neither did Ron or Pam, that's true, but
they did have.
But uh, wait, what else did Isay?
Um, hold on, hold on, hold on.
Did I not put that in?
Okay, oh, the other thing wasagain, maybe I didn't put it in.
Um, they didn't say thatMcNeese built the bomb.
They said that he was angryenough that he was able to get a

(42:20):
friend who had at leastexperience in remote control
type stuff to build the bomb.

Speaker 2 (42:28):
So do they question the friend or try to charge the
friend?

Speaker 1 (42:32):
I have no idea.

Speaker 2 (42:33):
The prosecution claimed that it was I mean
obviously that's what the$400,000 was for, not whatever
bullshit thing that they weresaying.
The little committed.
They brought up the tapes andthe transactions.

Speaker 1 (42:59):
They also called Pam's former best friend, laura
Chapman, to the stand.
I don't know if she's bestfriend or a best friend or just
a friend.
I don't remember what they said.
She testified that Gary hadbeen over to Pam's house.
They had a fight.
Gary pulled a gun on her andthreatened her.

(43:20):
He left and she called herfriends and they came over to
console her.
And while they are consolingher, pam apparently told them
there was a $2 million insurancepolicy and that she should just
hire a hitman and have himtaken out.

Speaker 2 (43:36):
Why would?

Speaker 1 (43:36):
she say that I don't know.
I mean, we all say dumb shitwhen we're really angry.

Speaker 2 (43:41):
Very true.

Speaker 1 (43:43):
In the end, it was a seven-week trial with hundreds
of witnesses.
On April 8th 2014, pam is foundguilty and sentenced to natural
life in prison without thepossibility of parole.
So my sources are AmericanGreed, season 9, episode 4, a
Widow's Web and Tucsoncom, butyou can look up either Pamela

(44:08):
Phillips or Gary Triano and youcan find a Dateline episode 48
Hours Vengeance Killer,millionaires, millionaires or
whatever.
They're in jail.
Still, yes, as far as I cantell, they are in jail and I
think they're both still alivehave any of them like, said
anything or been interviewed?
or like well ron had beeninterviewed right and he said he

(44:30):
was innocent okay.

Speaker 2 (44:32):
Yeah, that was gonna be be a question like how do
they send anything?
Have they changed your story?

Speaker 1 (44:36):
Yeah, nah, of course, that American Greed was in 2016
or 2017, so I don't know aboutanything recently, but when I
Googled, there didn't seem to beany recent mention of it.
Yeah, so, yeah, so moral of thestory besides, don't kill your

(44:59):
ex spouse, don't recordeverything, don't email about it
, don't do spreadsheets, even ifyou think you're gonna get
blackmail, leverage.

Speaker 2 (45:12):
It's gonna bite you in the ass.
Yes, it sure will.
And um I mean, don't do any ofthat no, don't murder.

Speaker 1 (45:19):
But if you're gonna, don't be stupid.

Speaker 2 (45:22):
Don't blow up your ex with a pipe bomb, mm-mm.

Speaker 1 (45:26):
No, just let it go.
Just let it go.
It sucks to be poor once you'rerich.
It sucks to be poor period, butI'm sure it sucks to be poor
after you've been rich.
But just coast, yeah.

Speaker 2 (45:39):
Yeah, I think it's better to be poor and out of
jail they're just not as rich.

Speaker 1 (45:47):
Well, I mean I think she was, because she may have
had that $300,000, but she wastrying to live a rich lifestyle
in Aspen, which is where mostWell, sure, yeah, if you're a
dumbass, then yeah.

Speaker 2 (46:00):
But if she had taken that $300,000, then she could
have done something smart withit and lived practically, yes,
but she could have gone backinto real estate and made more.

Speaker 1 (46:15):
She did try to go to real estate Remember.

Speaker 2 (46:18):
Yeah, but not in Aspen.
No, somewhere regular no.

Speaker 1 (46:21):
She wanted that lifestyle and I think that's
part of it.
Again, I think it's reallyAddictive, addictive, and it's
difficult to go back and fallthat far.

Speaker 2 (46:30):
Wealth addiction.
I mean, that's what like withmillionaires and stuff like that
.
Like you know, I think thatwealth is really an addiction.
Well, yeah, but like oursociety really Promotes it,
reveals it and reveals it, yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah, no, they do, and so wedon't recognize that.

Speaker 1 (46:49):
As an addiction.
Yeah, that's a yeah addiction.
It is just like power, right.
Once you get a little bit of it, you want to have more.
And I admit look, I admit youknow this is nowhere near the
same thing, but I had one of thefirst iPhones, right.
It was great.
When I went to Egypt, Icouldn't afford an iPhone.
I had to get one of those oldNokias, right.

(47:10):
That was really fucking hard togo from having something really
awesome to something reallysmall.
Eventually you get used to it.
You do get used to it, but youstill also have that fear of
missing out.
Right Like I couldn't do thethings that people could do.

Speaker 2 (47:28):
You know, like if you're missing out with stupid
shit like nail polish.
You're like oh, it's a limitededition nail polish.

Speaker 1 (47:34):
I'm like holy shit.

Speaker 2 (47:34):
I need it Right, you know I.
I need it Right, you know Idon't need it no, no.

Speaker 1 (47:39):
And that's kind of what capitalism does, right, it
causes you.
Part of that marketing is tocause you to feel like you're
missing out on something.

Speaker 2 (47:48):
No, it's like they talk about that in that book
Ripe that I read which overallthat book was meh yeah.
Which overall that book was mehyeah.
But they talk about, like youknow, whatever San Francisco and
like all those tech companiesand the protagonist works for a
tech company and their wholelike job is to create addictive

(48:10):
marketing Right To you know.
Make the shopping, shopping,online shopping experience
addictive like gambling and makeyou click, click, buy.

Speaker 1 (48:22):
Yeah, it does.
And, and you know, I noticeeven on instagram, like you'll
have all these pictures fromyour friends or whatever, and
then in the middle of it is a anadvertisement of something that
you're obviously interested in,because your phone listens to
you.
You know the algorithm, orwhatever.
They've seen you looking atsomething and it'll say limited

(48:43):
time offer.
Or you know yep, this is.

Speaker 2 (48:47):
You know this only, whatever be here, for there's
only a limited number, or theytry and figure out, yeah, and
you're and you're like oh my god, that's something I want I
should get it.

Speaker 1 (49:05):
Yeah, but if you stop and think for like five,
Absolutely they try and figureout what you want.
And if you actually stop andlike think, okay, if I still
want this in a week, maybe I'llget it, Hold on, and you go back
like I've done this before,where I forget about it, but
then it'll pop up again twomonths later, and then you're

(49:28):
like, oh, you don't want itanymore.
Well, not just that, but likeI'll forget it, and then two
months later it'll pop up.
And's still limited time offerspecial, whatever and it's like
it's been there for two months.
So clearly it's not, it's notyeah, no, okay, I'm sorry, no
that's a problem I have.

Speaker 2 (49:47):
I'm always trying to like predict what you're trying
to say not just you, buteverybody I know, and finish
your thoughts.
But but yeah, um no, yeah, I,I've seen that too.

Speaker 1 (50:00):
Yeah, it's always limited edition, it's always
like, and it's it's hard toignore it like it doesn't matter
how smart you are or that youeven know that you're being
manipulated.

Speaker 2 (50:13):
Sometimes it's just, it is really hard and I have
fallen for that.
They're like oh, this specialdeal or something you're like oh
my god, it's a special deal.

Speaker 1 (50:23):
Yeah, like yeah and yeah.
And then, after I buy it, I'mlike why?
Why did I buy this?
Why did I want this in thefirst?
Sometimes I'll get packages inthe mail from amazon and I'm
like, why did I buy that again?

Speaker 2 (50:36):
yeah, that's.
That's the other thing, though,that I was going to say, like
if you do buy the thing and youget it and you're like, oh, this
is really similar to anotherthing that.
I already have and like Iprobably could have done without
this thing, Right?
Or it's not as special as itseemed at first blush right, or

(50:59):
it is limited.

Speaker 1 (51:00):
But then you're like, but what you may want it now,
but are you gonna want it fiveyears?
Like I think of all those likemcdonald's shit or the beanie
babies right, the fucking beaniebabies and like maybe at the
time, but now they're not worthshit.
Yep, I mean, maybe some of themare, but yeah, um no, no,
people don't care about beaniebabies anymore.

(51:22):
Yeah and and I also think aboutthings that I bought like 10
years ago, because I did reallylike it 10 years ago, but now
I'm 40 and I'm like I reallydon't want to be walking around
with a care bear on my shirt,right, you know, like I stay
young and whatever, I still likethe Care Bears, but I don't
want to advertise the Care Bears, yeah, or whatever it is.

(51:44):
You know, yeah, yeah.
So I guess my point is we haveto really work at being mindful
about what you're buying andwhat you're looking at, about
what you're buying and whatyou're looking at Like I bought
those.

Speaker 2 (51:57):
I told you about those pants that they had
advertised for on like Facebook.
They're advertising these pridepants and.
I wanted them for the prideparade, which we didn't end up
going to anyway since Jay's notfeeling well, but I wanted them

(52:18):
for the parade that was todayand I ordered them right at the
beginning of June.
Yeah, and it said like ships inthree to five days.
The whole thing was like afucking scam.
Yeah, and, which is anotherthing that's completely
infuriating, they have all theseadvertisements on like Facebook
, instagram.
Some of them are not even legitRight Companies.

(52:41):
Yeah, and like, they fuckingsent me like a thing.
It had a.
You know how you get like ordernumbers or whatever.
Yeah, my order number was likerainbow outfit 1984 or whatever.
Yeah, my order number was likerainbow outfit 1984 or something
, and I was like that doesn'tseem like a real order number at

(53:02):
all.
No it doesn't.
So I sent them an email.
I was like you know, like afterlike 10 days or something, I
was like are y'all going to shitmy pants Because, like I want
to use?

Speaker 1 (53:15):
pants for pride and right, they're not coming for
pride yeah, I don't want them,that's like, and they never got
in touch with you yeah, whatlike.

Speaker 2 (53:23):
That's why I want a pair of fucking pants that look
like a goddamn pride flag, right, not for all the time.
Yeah, for pride, yeah, and theynever got back to me, yeah, and
so another week passed and sowe disputed it.
Yeah, that's good, but, yeah,absolute bullshit.

Speaker 1 (53:45):
It is.
It is bi-weekly, bi-monthly.
Uh bitch about capitalism.
Yeah, do you want to finishyour, your missing person?

Speaker 2 (54:02):
oh, yes, good idea.
So, yeah, this uh is an updatedarticle from I can't talk this
April 2024, this year, and itsays that that was her birthday

(54:28):
week, her 36th birthday.
But instead her family issearching for answers after
Shanice Harris's I should repeather name because you guys
probably forgot.
Shanice Harris should havecelebrated her 36th birthday
last April, but her family isstill looking for her five years

(54:53):
after her disappearance.
After she left a friend's homeTwo days after she was last seen
, her car was discovered that'snever a good thing In a wooded
area near Thompson, new York.
What happened to her?
Her friends and her familydescribed her as warm, loving

(55:13):
and a bit of a goofball with anatural gift for making people
laugh.
Her sister describes her ashaving a pure heart, a person
who often helped elderly womenwith their groceries, but she
was also someone who knew how toget the party started.

(55:34):
Shanice preferred to hang out athome and was close to her
family.
She would always check in withher sisters to tell them that
she loved them.
Her favorite saying was F-O-Efamily over everything.
So when her family hadn't heardfrom her after she left to meet
a friend, they knew thatsomething wasn't right.

(55:54):
She was last seen leaving herhome around 8.20 pm to visit a
friend on May 29, 2017.
Her sister remembers talking toher less than an hour before
she left.
She had called her girlfriendvia FaceTime before midnight at
the friend's home time.

(56:19):
Before midnight at the friend'shome, a friend reported shanice
left their rock hill new yorkhome with someone they didn't
know.
Yeah, by 9 30 am the nextmorning, shanice was not home,
which prompted shanice'sgirlfriend to reach out to
shanice sister Tamika.
Additionally, shanice hadfailed to call her mother, who
was traveling to Florida, whichwas a big red flag because

(56:42):
Shanice would always call tocheck her mother after flights.
Shanice's sister Tamikaimmediately went to the
Monticello Police Department toreport her sister missing.
However, she was told sheneeded to wait 24 hours to file
a report.
Tamika obliged, but when shereturned the next day she
received conflicting informationand was asked why she didn't

(57:04):
come in sooner.
That's frustrating.
That is frustrating.
Two days after her initialdisappearance, shanice's dark
gray four-door Volkswagen Jettawas discovered along Southwoods
Drive at the town of Thompson,new York, less than five miles
from where she was last seen.
Multiple searches were executedin the area where her car was

(57:27):
found, with no sign of Shanice.
Unfortunately, there is limitedinformation about Shanice's
case, but no shortage ofquestions.
Who did Shanice leave herfriends home with?
Why was her sister told to waitto report her missing then,
according to the NYPD, when?
When?
According to the NYPD, sorry,there isn't a waiting period.

(57:49):
Did no, they should sue.
Did waiting longer to reporther missing impact the search?
Where the case stands today,shanice Harris is still missing.
Her family is active in theirefforts to find Shanice.
They put up billboards near thearea where she was last seen

(58:14):
and on August 31st 2019, herfamily participated in an event
to help raise awareness formissing people within the 845
area code.
Shanice's mother still pays forher cell phone, just in case
she calls.
She shared in a 2019 interview.
The FBI recently increased theirreward to $10,000 for any

(58:38):
information related to Shanice'sdisappearance.
So if you do have anyinformation, please contact the
Federal Bureau of InvestigationsNew York office at 212-384-1000
or the Sullivan CountySheriff's Office confidential
tip line at 845-807-0158.

(59:05):
Shanice is described as abiracial woman with brown hair,
brown eyes, 5'8", weighs between260 and 300 pounds.
She has rosary beads in herhair, both of her ears are
pierced and she was wearingprescription Versace eyeglasses.

(59:27):
She has multiple tattoos, whichI described some of her tattoos
earlier.
The night she went missing shewas wearing a black and gray
hooded sweatshirt with fourpockets, black sweatpants and
black Nike Air Max sneakers.
Okay, and that about covers it,and we can put up her picture

(59:56):
when we post on social media and, yeah, so hopefully her family
will find out some informationabout what happened to her soon.
That's a very tragicdisappearance.
Yeah, that's a very tragicdisappearance and, yeah, really

(01:00:20):
frustrating to hear different,yeah, information from the
police about what she shouldhave done.
Yeah, um, so hopefully they'lllearn what happened to her.

Speaker 1 (01:00:31):
Yeah, hope so, hope so, hope so, hope.
So, all right, okay, what wereyour sources?

Speaker 2 (01:00:39):
Yeah, so it was the FBI missing persons and the
article came from Uncovered Cool.
So we'll make sure to postthose in our show notes.
Yes, we will.

Speaker 1 (01:00:58):
What do we do now?
Oh yeah, what we've beenreading, watching.
What have you been?

Speaker 2 (01:01:03):
watching, so we've been watching.
We just finished up throughseason four of Star Trek Below
Decks.
There is a season five, butit's not.
I don't know if it's likeairing right now, or it's not on

(01:01:24):
Paramount Plus yet, so I wantto.
I don't know if maybe it's notout yet.
So I know there's a season fivecoming and the, the producers
or whatever, or the network hassaid that they are going to
cancel the show after seasonfive.
But I know that there is likean effort online to save the

(01:01:48):
show.
Like there's like a Facebookgroup Save Lower Decks and
there's yeah, there's petitionsand stuff to save it.
So maybe if anybody loves startrek, lower decks then go sign
the petition sign some petitions?
Yeah, because I mean it's aawesome, hilarious animated star

(01:02:14):
trek series and so manyanimated series go for so long.
Even the actors have said thatthey want to continue doing this
show.
The fans have said that theylove this show.
It seems like there's no reasonto cancel.

Speaker 1 (01:02:28):
Yeah, I mean, look, the Simpsons have been going on
for how long.

Speaker 2 (01:02:31):
Exactly, like over 40 years Exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:02:33):
The original.

Speaker 2 (01:02:34):
March actress just passed away.
Yeah, and they still are goingon ad infinitum, so there's no
reason that Lower Decks can'tget a few more seasons.

Speaker 1 (01:02:45):
No.

Speaker 2 (01:02:46):
And yeah, it's really great.
It's canon, it's also hilarious, so you should definitely watch
it.
Do you have Paramount Plus?
Yes, so yeah, you should checkit out.
It's really fun.

Speaker 1 (01:02:58):
Okay, I'm still working on my to be watched from
10 years ago.

Speaker 2 (01:03:03):
Yeah.
Yeah, I'll be really sad if thenext season is the last season,
because I'm really enjoying it.

Speaker 1 (01:03:13):
Yeah, what about you?
What have you been watching?
What have I been watching?
Nothing, nothing, uh what haveyou been up to well in terms of
watching?

Speaker 2 (01:03:25):
not really anything that I can remember I haven't
like seen you in like two weeksI know, yeah, I really haven't
been watching anything, unlessyou count watching podcasts,
sure, um so what podcasts haveyou been listening to?

Speaker 1 (01:03:40):
well, I found decon chamber, I think is what it's
called, which is I'm cannot forthe life of me.
Right now I'm totally blankingon the actors names, but it's um
malcolm and tucker fromenterprise, the actors who do
that.
Apparently they're good friendsin real life and they have
their own podcast and theyinterview other people's star

(01:04:04):
tracks, so they did one.
I forget who the first personwas.

Speaker 2 (01:04:07):
I didn't want to listen.
I didn't listen to that I will.

Speaker 1 (01:04:10):
I didn't listen to the first one.
The second one was judzia dax,whose name I'm also blanking on,
yeah, who apparently lives inNew Mexico.
Really, yeah, that's stalker,right.
And I think that the newest one, I want to say Terry Cruz, but

(01:04:32):
I don't know who that is.
Was she a falcon?
Yeah, that sounds right.

Speaker 2 (01:04:40):
Yeah, was she T'Pol.

Speaker 1 (01:04:42):
Yes, okay, t'pol.
So T'Pol is the newest one.
They only have three, okay, soMalcolm Reed yes Is.
Dominic Keating.
Yes, I wanted to call himMalcolm, dominic, so I kind of
got it right.
And Trip Tucker is ConnorTrainor.
Yeah, so, connor Trainor.
Neither of them look like whothey did, but I mean, I guess it

(01:05:05):
has been like 20 years, hasn'tit?
Jadzia Dax is Terry Farrell.
Terry Farrell, so who?
There is a Terry Crews?
I'm pretty sure there's a TerryCrews.

Speaker 2 (01:05:17):
And hang on with T'Pol.
I thought her name started witha P too, but maybe I'm getting
confused with T'Pol JoleneBlalock.

Speaker 1 (01:05:29):
No, was it Blalock?
Let's see Decon Chamber Podcast.
Let's see Decon Chamber Podcast.
Let's check out.
I'm just going to put in TerryCrews, maybe it's.
Oh my God, the nope, that's aman.

(01:05:53):
So nope, not that person.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I do not recognize her, though,but I don't recognize anybody
because they've I mean, it'sbeen 20 years, you know?
Okay, let me look up thepodcast.

Speaker 2 (01:06:14):
Okay, Hoshi is Linda Park.

Speaker 1 (01:06:16):
It's not her.

Speaker 2 (01:06:18):
It's not jerry ryan, is it?

Speaker 1 (01:06:20):
no, it's not jerry ryan.
I know who jerry ryan is I, Iknow you do.

Speaker 2 (01:06:24):
I'm just like jerry, sounds like terry, no well, it
still says terry fair.

Speaker 1 (01:06:29):
I know they have a third one, but I guess it's not
out yet, or maybe they.
Maybe I just got old Instagraminfo.
Robin Curtis, how did I getTerry Crews?
Okay, robin Curtis, I'm notRonan Curtis.

(01:06:50):
Oh, william Shatner was thefirst episode.
Oh, nice yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:06:55):
That's cool.
Yeah, she was cool.
Yeah, she was Savik.
Right, she was one of theSaviks Robin Curtis.

Speaker 1 (01:07:05):
Yeah, lieutenant Savik, after Christy Ellie, yeah
, yeah, okay, that's probablywhy I don't remember her, yeah,
so anyway, I started listeningto them and I think you can find
them on YouTube and it's theirfaces, which is nice, okay.
The other one I watched was anew episode of Juicy Scoop,
because Matt Murphy was on it.

(01:07:25):
He was being interviewed aboutthe Sherry Pampini documentary.
Okay, and so she does.
You can listen to it and youcan also watch it on YouTube.
She does, you can listen to it,you can also watch it on
YouTube.
I've also been watching.
For some bizarre reason, I'vegotten really into these.

Speaker 2 (01:07:40):
A Day in the Life Of yeah, we were telling you about
that one.

Speaker 1 (01:07:44):
Both, Well, not both.
Actually Three places Japan,Korea and, for some bizarre
reason, Nigeria.
It's really cool to see howother people live it is really
cool, but I don't know whatpossessed Nigeria exactly Like.
Why didn't I search for likePoland or something?
Why not, you know.
Well, I'm just trying to thinkof why I did that I have like a

(01:08:07):
very marginal amount of Nigerianancestry.

Speaker 2 (01:08:11):
Yeah, Like 0.9% I think.

Speaker 1 (01:08:15):
Yeah, well%, I think yeah, well, I don't even have
that.
Maybe I did, I don't remember.
It popped up and I startedwatching them because apparently
they have anti-gay policies.

Speaker 2 (01:08:29):
I think a lot of African countries do yeah like
yeah, that was part of my, wetalked about that on the podcast
last year.
Thanks to British colonization.
So thanks to the yeah, that waspart of my, we talked about
that on the podcast last year.
Thanks to British colonization.
So thanks to the rest of myancestry.

Speaker 1 (01:08:46):
Okay, but we can only have one rant an episode, so we
already had our capitalism rant.

Speaker 2 (01:08:51):
That rant was in the last episode.
Yes it was.

Speaker 1 (01:08:56):
We don't need to really go down it again.
No, let's see.
So that's what I've beenwatching.
I mean, I do the same usualstuff Background, forensic files
.
I've gotten back into forensicfiles, but again, mostly
background.
Yeah, so that's it.

(01:09:23):
And also, I guess, sincethey're podcasts, that's
technically, technically, wouldhave been listening to as well.
Yeah, reading has been, I'vebeen on and, oh, what else have
I?

Speaker 2 (01:09:28):
been watching.
I've also been watchingbooktube, so there are a lot of
books I would like to read, butI probably oh my god, I bet I
have not watched booktube and Ialready have so many books that
I want to read.
I I imagine that if I startdown the path of watching
booktube, that it's going togrow into an insurmountable pile
.
Yeah, yeah, mine's prettyinsurmountable.

Speaker 1 (01:09:47):
You're looking at most of them.
Yeah, yeah, no, and for me it'snot even like I don't really
care about the reviews of thebooks.
I like the vlogs.
I'm a nosy person.
I want to see people's lives.
Yeah, so I like watching thereading vlogs when they're like
also going out to like coffeeshops and movies and grocery

(01:10:07):
shopping and shit like that.
That's.
I enjoy that stuff too.
Ok, I can see that being fun.
Yeah, I'm a nosy, nosy person.
I am.
I'm a nosy, nosy person.
I am.
I'm definitely the kind ofperson who's going to look
through your medicine cabinets.
You know, look away.

Speaker 2 (01:10:23):
There's like so many there's.
Actually, I don't have amedicine cabinet.
We have a really big mirror,yeah, and we don't have a
medicine cabinet.

Speaker 1 (01:10:32):
Yeah so yeah, my, I have a medicine cabinet.
Yeah so yeah, my cat, I have amedicine cabinet.
It's huge but it's useless.
It doesn't fit anything.

Speaker 2 (01:10:38):
Our medicine cabinet wouldn't be able to fit all the
meds that we have yeah, no, mymeds are are on a bookshelf.

Speaker 1 (01:10:47):
Yeah, on a shelf of a bookshelf yeah, that's where
ours are too yeah, I mean notthat I need much space, but
that's where they happen to be.
That's it.
Reading, though, mary, we did,I did, I finished, mary, and
what did you think?
Well, I loved it.
I knew I would love it.
I knew you would love it too,because those are spoilers, but

(01:11:14):
there are all the kinds of a lotof things that you like that.
I like in a, in a book, um, orthat will at least get me to
pick up a book, right, um,although I didn't know that
those things were going to be inthe book, because it's not
advertised that way, but yeah, Iliked it.
I was surprised well, I guess Iwasn't surprised because I've
seen reviews of it, but at thesame time I was surprised that

(01:11:34):
such a that a man could write awoman so well.
They're actually non-binary.
I believe he doesn't say thathe calls himself a straight
white man, do they?

Speaker 2 (01:11:51):
Yeah, in the review or in the prologue they do In
the afterword he called himselfa straight white man.

Speaker 1 (01:12:02):
I thought that they were non-binary.
That is what I heard as well,which was why I was confused.
I mean, he calls himself a manBecause he even said in his
afterword he says he callshimself a man because he even
said in his afterword he sayswhy would I have the right who
has the right to write whom?
And, as a white man, how do Ihave the right, or do I have the

(01:12:30):
right to write about amenopausal woman?
Yeah, and that he had to gothrough.
He actually had to ask womenwho have been through menopause
to make sure that he got itright this is about Mary.

Speaker 2 (01:12:47):
This definitely seems to indicate that he is a man,
that he is a man I am.
Bd says gender identity, man.

Speaker 1 (01:13:01):
Okay, okay, I don't know where, because a lot of
people were saying he was eithernon-binary or trans it must be
some whatever, just internetrumor yeah.
Because Mary is quite good andyeah, must be some whatever just
internet rumor, yeah, yeah,that it got picked up Because
Mary is quite good and, yeah, alot of men do struggle to see

(01:13:23):
things from that kind ofperspective.
Yeah, and he kind of mentionedthat too.
But he did a good thing in thathe got the women in his life to
proofread it and to askquestions, which I think men
don't like to do.

Speaker 2 (01:13:39):
Exactly.
That's just the problem.
A lot of yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:13:42):
Men just don't listen to women, yeah or ask questions
or think, to ask questions andI understand, I understand the
whole not thinking to under toask questions, because sometimes
you just don't think thatthere's a question to ask, right
Right, because you live in aworld as you are and you don't
necessarily realize that otherpeople's experiences are

(01:14:04):
different.

Speaker 2 (01:14:05):
I think that the way that a lot of men are socialized
, you know, or AMAB, people aresocialized to, you know, not you
know, be confident.
You know, be leaders.
You know, yeah, you know, takethe bull by the horns and you
know whatever like askingquestions and being listeners

(01:14:27):
and being whatever you knowpassive, you know passive
learners or whatever you knowthat's contrary to that, so yeah
.

Speaker 1 (01:14:39):
Awesome job.

Speaker 2 (01:14:40):
Nat Cassidy, yeah, and I want to read his other
book.

Speaker 1 (01:14:45):
Nestlings yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:14:47):
Yeah, so we should put that on our list, okay.

Speaker 1 (01:14:50):
Yeah, no, this was.
This was a really, really goodbook and again, I can't say what
I really loved about it.
Without giving anything away,right, I will say that not only
was she written well, but therage aspect, which is not a
giveaway like that's first fivepages, ten pages, whatever, also

(01:15:12):
great, right, the whole beingdismissed, being overlooked, and
then having it be doubly so fora woman because that happens to
you as a woman, but then whenyou age it happens even worse.

Speaker 2 (01:15:31):
What is the word that I'm looking for?
Yeah, I mean, mean it's kind of.
It's kind of, you know, freeing, liberating, in that way, like
you know that you know she doesthose because you kind of
visions ah you just want to yeahyeah, yeah, and and so she does

(01:15:52):
those things Right.
Yeah, so that's kind ofliberating, yeah, um, but yeah,
when you you send me thatmessage, you were like she did
that thing and I don't want tokeep reading.
I was like, keep reading, keepreading.

Speaker 1 (01:16:04):
Oh, oh, yeah, that thing, yeah, and then, and then
it happened a second time, yeah,and I also didn't want to keep
reading, but I did, I progressed.
I don't know if I said I didn'twant to keep reading.
I think I just said I didn'tlike it.
Yeah, I don't remember, it wasa while ago, but yeah, no, I
don't.

(01:16:24):
That is a trigger warning.
I don't handle that well,weirdly.
Death of other types is fine,right Of other organisms.

Speaker 2 (01:16:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:16:39):
Of other life, but that life no.

Speaker 2 (01:16:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:16:45):
So, yeah, I finished it and we both started on
Fahrenheit 451.
Yep, I thought it was longerthan it is, but my book actually
has about 100 pages of essaysfrom other people about it.
Yeah, it's pretty short.

Speaker 2 (01:17:04):
I'm almost halfway through and I should probably
finish it tonight or tomorrow.
I am only about a quarterthrough, because I listened to
it not yesterday but the daybefore yesterday when I was
doing chores, and then yesterdayI didn't read anything at all
because I was just, yeah,watching videos and conspiracies

(01:17:26):
about shark attacks.
Yeah, not that.
I'm not a shark hater, don'tget me wrong.
I'm a shark lover, okay, yeah,but I'm also not one who's
unrealistic about sharks.
Okay, I think sometimes peopleget a little bit unrealistic and

(01:17:50):
they're like sharks are just abig puppy dogs and they will
never, ever hurt anybody, andthey are large predators and
some, and they may not activelywant to hurt a person, but you
don't always look like a personsometimes you look like fish and

(01:18:11):
not every shark species is thesame, right, and some shark
species tiger sharks are moreopportunistic than others.
Yeah, and the ones I waswatching were all tiger shark

(01:18:32):
attacks.
You know there is, of course,context.
You know the context of what itis.
You know people who swim withtiger sharks all the time and
and are okay, and there'sprofessional divers that dive
with tiger sharks all the timeand, but in certain contexts

(01:18:55):
then you're going to be seen asprey and unfortunately, you know
that happens and, yeah, one ofthe ones I was reading, they
were claiming it was a mako, butI was like I don't know.
I think that one's a tiger too.
I think that one's a tiger too,because there wasn't, there
wasn't a lot of evidence aboutthat one and the video's not

(01:19:19):
doesn't really show a lot onthat one.
So but yeah, don't, uh, don't,jump off a cruise ship at night.
That's especially not ifthey're chumming the water.
No, night sharks arecrepuscular, that's another
thing.
So they're hunting at dawn anddusk.
Yeah, that's their feeding time, right?
So yeah, maybe, maybe when yougo on your cruise yeah yeah,

(01:19:46):
where?
Where are they gonna be cruisecruising like, where's the,
where's the ship gonna be?

Speaker 1 (01:19:53):
are you asking me yes , oh, oh my, the crime cruise
your cruise.

Speaker 2 (01:19:57):
I'm going on.
Uh, I know we're going to thebahamas?

Speaker 1 (01:20:01):
yeah, that's where the sharks are.
Yeah, I know I won't be goingin, don't worry about it, I mean
.

Speaker 2 (01:20:08):
I mean, you can go in , just don't jump off the
fucking boat.

Speaker 1 (01:20:12):
I don't plan on jumping off the if I get.
If I go off the boat, I've beenpushed, yeah I have been
murdered.
I will remember that.
Okay, good, and I will leavethat here in the things.
So if I disappear on my cruise,yeah I have been murdered.
Yeah, yeah, I will notwillingly go anywhere with

(01:20:33):
anybody.

Speaker 2 (01:20:34):
Yeah, let me know when you get back if they chum
the waters.

Speaker 1 (01:20:41):
Yeah, well, I don't think the crews will.
Yeah, you stop at islands alongthe way and they do things.

Speaker 2 (01:20:49):
Yeah, this wasn't like a big cruise, it was like a
little booze cruise.

Speaker 1 (01:20:54):
Yeah, no, this, this is a like city, you know, like
small city on a ocean stylecruise.

Speaker 2 (01:21:01):
But one thing that big cruises do sometimes do is
dump the leftovers, yeah,overboard, and the the sharks
don't eat the leftovers, but theleftovers do attract fish,
right, which then attract sharks, yeah, yeah yeah, so yeah,
still don't eat the leftovers,but the leftovers do attract
fish, right, which then attractsharks.
Yeah yeah, yeah, so yeah stilldon't do it yeah no, no, if I go
overboard.

Speaker 1 (01:21:21):
I have been murdered.
Yeah, I have been murdered,yeah but uh no, I will be
staying as far away frombalconies as I possibly.
Good idea dying on a cruiseship is one of my biggest fears.

Speaker 2 (01:21:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:21:35):
It's one of my biggest fears In any way.
Well, I'm proud of you forfacing your fears Not just like
falling off or being thrown off.
You could also get sucked underthe ship.
Get sucked under the ship, butalso hitting something like the
Titanic and drowning that way orsome fluke happened Like all of

(01:21:59):
it scares, you know.
Or just meeting up withsomebody awful and they just
murder you, Right, Right.
Or going on the cruise withsomebody you love and they
decide to murder you.
Because that happens too, no,Because it happens to no, it's
you know.
Or even just going someplacegetting sick and then not having

(01:22:19):
the medical care you need yeah,that's true, cruise ships are
also like lots of disease there.
Yeah, yeah, and not really anySorry.

Speaker 2 (01:22:31):
That's okay.

Speaker 1 (01:22:35):
No, trust me, there's nothing you're going to come up
with that I haven't thoughtabout.
But yes, I am facing.
I'm facing a few fears here I'mfacing the open ocean.
I love the ocean and I likebeing in the water me too but I
do not like the deep ocean.
Where I can, yes, I do not likethat scares the shit out of me,
um, that's why.

Speaker 2 (01:22:54):
I love watching all those movies and those books.
I know, I know.

Speaker 1 (01:22:59):
I want to be scared.

Speaker 2 (01:23:01):
I don't want to be scared bad enough to jump off a
cruise ship.

Speaker 1 (01:23:05):
I am.
So I'm facing the fear of theopen ocean, I'm facing my fear
of cruise ships, I'm facing myclaustrophobia that I didn't
even realize I had until Istarted thinking about the fact
that there aren't any windows inthe room I'm in.
I am facing, you know, illness,fears, right Right, and people,

(01:23:27):
yeah Right.
I mean, I'm not really afraidof people, but I do have that
phobia of it's likeclaustrophobia, but it's with
people, yeah.
So, even though this ship iswhat, like a mile, mile and a
half, long I'm still.
It's still a close.
I'm still know that I'm goingto be in a closed space with

(01:23:48):
thousands of people.
So right now, just saying thatkind of makes me hyper, to
hyperventilate you know you canget like a service dog for that
Like.

Speaker 2 (01:23:56):
you can get like a service dog that like creates
like a barrier between you andother people.

Speaker 1 (01:24:01):
Yeah, it's for me.
A lot of times it's the thoughtmore than it is the actual
thing.
Yeah, so I'm facing all ofthose fears, so yay me.

Speaker 2 (01:24:12):
Go, katie Go.

Speaker 1 (01:24:12):
Katie, all for the love of those fears.

Speaker 2 (01:24:13):
So yay me Go, katie Go.

Speaker 1 (01:24:14):
Katie.

Speaker 2 (01:24:15):
All for the love of true crime All for the love of
true crime.

Speaker 1 (01:24:19):
I would not be on that cruise if it was not for
CrimeCon or Crime Cruise.
I wouldn't.
I've never, ever wanted to beon a cruise, ever Right.
But I'm doing it for true crime.
Let's hope it's worth it.

Speaker 2 (01:24:35):
I'll let you know, if I don't die on the cruise, I
might consider one of thosealaska cruises where you get to
see whales and shit yeah, youknow, I went on one of those.

Speaker 1 (01:24:43):
I never saw anything, damn it, when I was there.
That's the issue, that's theproblem that you, when you get
there on the boat, they willtell you you sign a little thing
saying that you understand thatyou may not see anything If you
don't see a whale.
Yeah, that nothing is promised.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:25:01):
I went whale watching in Monterey and I saw a blue
whale.

Speaker 1 (01:25:04):
Oh, that's nice.
Yeah, I would like to seewhales.

Speaker 2 (01:25:08):
Yeah, I expected to see a lot of dolphins, humpbacks
or greys, yeah, so blue whalewas a delightful surprise, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:25:18):
My fears will be faced.

Speaker 2 (01:25:23):
How did we get on that Sharks cruise ships.
Oh yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.
All your fears in one.

Speaker 1 (01:25:29):
All my fears in one.
Yes, drowning, wasn't that oneof your fears?
Also, that, yeah, any type,anything where I will lose my
breath, any type of suffocation,yeah, style death is a fear of
mine.
Yeah, yeah, no, like I reallyone of the things that I really,
really, really want to do in mylife and I've wanted to do it
for decades is learn to scubadive.

(01:25:51):
I would love to scuba diveright, but I am absolutely
petrified that I will drown orthat the oxygen thingy will stop
working, or that somebody I'mdiving with because you really
shouldn't dive alone will likecut the thing and like I'll die
or puncture it and I'll die like23 meters down or something.

(01:26:14):
No.

Speaker 2 (01:26:15):
Shark movie.
It's all those.
It's not very scientificallyaccurate.

Speaker 1 (01:26:19):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:26:19):
And I hear it's not very scuba dive accurate either,
but it's like Mandy Moore andanother chick.
They're in like shark cage andthe shark cage falls to the
bottom of the sea.
And they're running out andthey don't die.
They're.
They're running out of air andthe sharks are.
The sharks are coming.

Speaker 1 (01:26:40):
There's deadly sharks all around and they have to
survive yeah, no, I'm not gonnawatch, but yeah, so I don't know
, maybe when I move tocalifornia and get closer to an
ocean, I will, yeah, learn toscuba dive.
I'll get over that fear.

(01:27:00):
I'll face that one, we'll see.
I.
I face my fears all the time.
I do it all the time.

Speaker 2 (01:27:07):
It's just no, I'm not gonna.

Speaker 1 (01:27:10):
Um no, I also will not be watching titan.
I haven't seen any informationor anything on Titanic until I
sign up for that crime cruise,and now every other thing I see
everywhere is about Titanic.

Speaker 2 (01:27:21):
Titanic.

Speaker 1 (01:27:21):
yeah, I really don't want to remember that, I don't
want to think about it.
What?

Speaker 2 (01:27:26):
assholes.
Whoever did the Facebookalgorithm or?

Speaker 1 (01:27:29):
Instagram algorithm.
I know.

Speaker 2 (01:27:34):
Yeah, they're like.
Don't you want to rememberthese shipwrecks?
Right, exactly, yeah well,you're gonna be in the bahamas,
not in the middle of the frigidatlantic ocean.
There aren't any, even anyfucking icebergs there anymore,
no, but anything could happen.

Speaker 1 (01:27:51):
I mean, that that's my thing.
I don't.
I don't think.
I don't think that titanicstyle thing is gonna happen,
yeah, but there are lots ofother ways the ship can go down.
Oh my god, and it freaks me thefuck out.
You're fine, I know.
I.
I know realistically, I knowrealistically, nothing is gonna
happen.
I will come back safe and sound.

(01:28:13):
But it's the possibilities thatmake one afraid.
That is what anxiety is.
That is what fear is right,yeah, very true.
And so once you face them, thenyou realize maybe it's not so
bad.
But leading up to that pointI'm going to be freaking out.

Speaker 2 (01:28:33):
I'm sure once I get there I'll be absolutely fine 23
meters down also has a sequelthat's even worse and it's
called 24 meters down, and inthat one they're like cave
diving in an underwater cavewith like ancient ruins and
somehow, in these very enclosedquarters, these enormous, blind,

(01:28:57):
great white cave sharks haveevolved and and they're out to
get them, and it's got johncorbett in it I love john
corbett.

Speaker 1 (01:29:09):
He must be hard up.

Speaker 2 (01:29:12):
He gets eaten by a shark rather spectacularly.
Oh no, I won't be watching thatone either.
I mean, they're very fakelooking sharks.

Speaker 1 (01:29:25):
Now, I admire people who go cave diving too.
That's another one.
I don't think I could ever dothat.

Speaker 2 (01:29:29):
Cave diving freaks me out.

Speaker 1 (01:29:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:29:31):
Yeah, and cave diving in water yeah, no too, yeah,
and cave diving in water.
Yeah, no, no, which is why oneof my favorite horror books is
the Luminous Dead by CaitlinStarling.

Speaker 1 (01:29:43):
Yeah, Because it's about cave diving in water.

Speaker 2 (01:29:48):
Partially.
Yes, yeah, it's cave, like on astrange.
She's on a strange planet in acave.
She's in a like a body suitthat she's dependent on for life
and she also has to dive invarious parts and she isn't sure

(01:30:12):
if she's losing her mind or not.
Yeah, that's scary, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:30:19):
Yeah, no, thank you, no thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:30:23):
It's delightful, yeah , and it's also queer, but it's
quite like a very marginal partof the story.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:30:32):
Okay, anything else now that we've detoured quite a
bit, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:30:37):
Sorry, so I have read some other stuff Hang on.
Let me say what those thingsare Okay.
So I read A Bripe by Sarah RoseEtter.
It was just okay it does.
It kind of talks about theexistential crisis of being a

(01:31:00):
millennial and how you're neverenough and how you can never
fucking get ahead in thiscapitalist work culture and as a
woman.

Speaker 1 (01:31:15):
Yeah, don't give too much away.
I stopped to read that one.

Speaker 2 (01:31:20):
Yeah, I mean, that's pretty much all I have to say
for it.
It wasn't as exciting as Ithought it was going to be Right
, but it was okay.
Yeah, I read Die Cat by JennyFriend Davis, which I have had
on my list for so long, you know, and I've been looking forward
to for so long, and sadly Ididn't like it.

Speaker 1 (01:31:41):
Yeah, yeah, I think you did talk about that.
Yeah, I did talk about that,okay.

Speaker 2 (01:31:45):
Yeah, yeah, so I finished it.

Speaker 1 (01:31:47):
Yeah, it's not your cup of tea.
It's not my cup.

Speaker 2 (01:31:50):
Pretentious lesbians in New York.
I can see, maybe, what she'strying to do.
She's trying to make some kindof statement about queer culture
, but it's like the queerculture of like the elites, the

(01:32:11):
upper east siders.
And.

Speaker 1 (01:32:14):
I'm like I don't care , right?

Speaker 2 (01:32:15):
you know like that's not or ever going to be me right
and like like I get it, it's.
It's about frivolity, you know,like how people behave, like

(01:32:42):
how their actions are basicallya pretension, or whatever.
And how it's frivolous and howit's joyful, but at times I
can't really tell if the authoris for or against that.
I think it would have workedmore for me if it had been a

(01:33:05):
shorter story, right, yeah, so Igave it three stars and I gave
it a review that it was tedious.
I read Big Swiss by Jen Began.

(01:33:25):
I'm not sure if that one wasquite delightful.
Yeah, that's another queerstory, but, yeah, I quite
enjoyed that one.
It's about like a woman goingthrough like a middle age crisis
.
She's going through like amental health crisis and she has

(01:33:45):
this affair with a much youngerwoman and it's quite unethical.
It's a big ethics breach becauseshe's like a transcriber for
this therapist and and she thethe woman she's having an affair
with is a patient of thetherapist and so she learns

(01:34:08):
about the woman from rightduring the transcription and
then she meets her in real lifeand has an affair with her yeah,
that is a yeah violation majoryeah, um, but it's quite a fun
romp.
Yeah, the whole story is quitefun and it's um, you know it
deals.

(01:34:29):
It deals with some real seriousissues of trauma and mental
health and suicidal ideation,and not too heavy of a way, but
heavy enough like in places andyeah, it was real good.
Yeah, I really enjoyed that one,so I gave it four stars, but I

(01:34:53):
would say it's four and a halfstars for me.
But, like I said, I'vecomplained before about how I
wish that I had a more nuancedrating system.
And then I'm currently readingin addition to Fahrenheit 451,
I'm reading a book called I FeedHer to the Beast and the Beast

(01:35:15):
is Me by Jameson Shea, and it isa young adult horror novel
about a young black balletdancer in the.
What's the?
I already forget.
I should know this because I waslistening to in the book but

(01:35:38):
basically the, the dance companyin paris.
Right, yeah, she's justgraduated from this like elite
parisian dance academy and nowshe's, she's been accepted into,
like the whatever, the premierParis ballet company.
However, she's an excellentdancer and she's worked so hard

(01:36:04):
for this for many years.
But she has to deal with racismand all kinds of politics and
bullshit and stuff like that andall kinds of politics and
bullshit and stuff like that,and so she basically makes like
a Faustian bargain with a darkgod represented by a river of
blood.
Ooh, yeah, to give her power,the power to be undeniable.

(01:36:28):
Good for her, yeah, good forher indeed, and so I'm quite
enjoying that Mm-hmm.
And then, of course, fahrenheit451.
Yeah, good for her indeed.

Speaker 1 (01:36:37):
And so I'm quite enjoying that.
And then, of course, fahrenheit451.
Yeah, what are we going to readnext after we're done with
Fahrenheit?
Are we going to read in Austin?
Are we going to read?
Well, we have to read our book,our witch book.
Oh, yeah, we got to read thatone.
Yeah, oh, that's right, we gotto talk about that.
Where is that book for me?
The Witch of New York.
So next episode, episode 20, wewill be discussing the Witch of

(01:37:01):
New York, the Trials of PollyBodine and the Cursed Birth of
Tabloid Justice by Alex Hortis.
H-o-r-t-i-s.
Episode 20,.
We've got our book.
I will put the title and theauthor in the show notes.

Speaker 2 (01:37:18):
I will make an episode.
It will be about crimes.

Speaker 1 (01:37:23):
Yes, and it will be short.

Speaker 2 (01:37:26):
It will be short.

Speaker 1 (01:37:28):
The last one was supposed to be short, I know.
Well, this one should be shorttoo, because we're talking about
the book.
Yes, because we're going totalk about the book.

Speaker 2 (01:37:34):
Yeah, okay, so the book is part of the thing, so I
need to make a short one.

Speaker 1 (01:37:39):
Yeah, okay, got it so , like subscribe, follow review
would be good.
Download please.
Downloads are helpful.
Yes, they are um and hit us upon our socials because crickets
again have you checked sincelast.

Speaker 2 (01:37:59):
You can listen to us anytime.
If you run out of wi-fi, youcan listen to us.
Yep, oh, we have 90 followersoh, that's nice, okay, nice.

Speaker 1 (01:38:11):
Thank you all.
That's awesome.
Thank you, um.
I will make sure rachel checksmore regularly if you would like
to send us dms or emails orwhatever.
Um, yes, yeah, ask us questions.

Speaker 2 (01:38:28):
Tell us something you would like us to do every time
I miss posting on social media,I will accept being flogged
publicly.
There you go.
In the village square.

Speaker 1 (01:38:41):
Flogged and shamed.
Yep, alright, put me in thestocks.
There you go.
Alright, so we will talk to youlater.
Okay, bye.

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