December 9, 2024 • 52 mins
In this week's episode we talk about Christians who struggle with depression. The Bible says that in this world, we will have trouble. This means we are susceptible to depression, as well as other mental health issues. What is it like to live with depression? How do you talk to someone who suffers from it? Lets talk about this issue that is running rampant in today's world.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hey Detours Family, welcome to another episode here in Season 5.
(00:24):
I am here with my beautiful wife Deb.
Hi guys.
As always, thank you for listening.
Today we are going to be touching on a subject that is a little nerve wracking for Deb.
I can see here and I'm sitting here watching her and she's breathing deep as we get ready
to dive into this episode.
Yeah, I'm not looking forward to this.
Oh my goodness.
(00:45):
Oh my goodness.
So today we're going to be talking about depression.
As Christians, just like a few episodes ago, we talked about anxiety and how sometimes
as the Christian church we don't talk about depression or even acknowledge the fact that
Christians can absolutely have depression.
(01:05):
And a lot of times when you admit that, there are responses from Christians that really
indicate that they don't understand what it's like to have depression.
Right.
Unless you walk through somebody's shoes, you can give a whole bunch of platitudes,
you can give a whole bunch of scriptures and not that scriptures aren't powerful, but if
(01:28):
you haven't walked the journey, you just don't know.
Yeah.
You just don't.
Yeah.
So the reason you kind of sighed at the beginning of the episode when I introduced it is because
you from time to time will suffer from depression.
Yes, severely.
Yeah.
And you're going through a bit of a bout of it right now.
(01:49):
And what's so interesting as your husband is, I would tell anyone that you have more
joy in your life than anyone I know.
You're constantly happy.
Your birthday was not long ago and you're just like, I just want to go have fun.
And what's fun for you is trampoline parks and what do you do?
(02:11):
Rock climbing and all sorts of things.
So your idea of fun where for me an idea of fun is let me go see a movie, a Marvel movie
or something.
So you're very joyful and yet you, how long have you had bouts with depression?
How long back do you remember?
Since childhood, for sure.
(02:33):
So what do you see?
Elementary school?
Kindergarten?
Really?
That early?
Oh yeah, for sure.
And what does depression look like for someone in kindergarten, first, second, third grade,
whatever that is?
Well, I mean, you know, it's hard to explain the need for validation and attention from
(02:56):
an emotionally distant family was definitely difficult.
I was teased and mocked a lot.
I was bullied a lot as a kid and I needed to be able to express that feeling of shame
and feeling of rejection with anyone who would listen and nobody would.
(03:17):
It was like, oh, just ignore them.
What do they know?
You know, that sounds pretty Italian.
Yeah, buttercup.
Everybody gets teased.
This is a rite of passage.
You're so dramatic.
It was my favorite trigger words in all of my entire life is you're so dramatic, which
(03:42):
really just diminishes your pain because they don't know how to deal with it.
So, do you mean it amplifies the pain?
Not diminish?
No, well, it amplifies my pain, but they're trying to diminish it because they don't know
how to.
Okay, that's what they're trying to do to you is diminish.
Okay.
So, it seemed like you're making a mountain out of a molehill and they're pointing at
(04:05):
the molehill rather than acknowledging the mountain.
Right.
Gotcha.
Okay.
And any true dysfunctional family will make very small things into big things and make
very big glaring dysfunction, pain or trauma into very small things.
That's just the way it works.
Interesting.
(04:26):
And so that started at a very young age for you.
Yes.
Now that can see, so when you're in, let's say second grade, whatever it is, how does
depression manifest itself in you?
I had an eating disorder very young in life.
(04:46):
So trying to control my emotions through food.
I cried a lot.
Well, even just what you said there with eating.
So it was anorexia, bulimia, what are we talking about?
Which is so odd.
It's self-punishing.
Well, and it's also, you come from a family, Italians, they literally place value on food.
(05:11):
Yeah.
So that's interesting.
Do you think that played a part in it?
You saw how much they all valued food?
No, I think the, to be perfectly frank, and I know that we haven't actually spent any
time on our podcast discussing sexual abuse in any great detail, but I do believe childhood
(05:32):
sexual abuse played a role in the anorexia because it was a hatred of my body.
It was a hatred of feeling like I was out of control in my circumstances and food was
the one thing I could control.
But it also just gave me a sense of empowerment to say no to something everybody else would
(05:54):
was saying yes to.
Interesting.
So when, at what age did that start roughly?
Seven.
Seven years old.
You started having eating disorders.
Yeah.
And so this continues on what changes between elementary school and middle school, junior
(06:15):
high age.
Oh, I move from one state to another, which made things, you know, difficult at that age.
When you grow up in a school and you're even even if you've been bullied, you know, you
grow up in a school and you know all the same faces and you're familiar and you know the
culture, you know, Texas culture and Jersey culture, very different, very, very different.
(06:40):
Italians fit in one somewhat easily and not so much in the other.
Correct.
So just changing schools was another source of grief and pain and teasing and mockery.
Yeah, I really didn't.
I would not relive my childhood or you know how people are like, oh, the glory days of,
(07:01):
you know, like high school years.
You couldn't pay me enough money to go back and live any of those years.
I did not enjoy growing up.
I found kids to be very mean.
And when you're in middle school, is the anorexia still there?
Oh, yeah.
How long does that last?
(07:26):
I battled the the anorexia itself, probably where I was starving myself, probably ended
in my like when I got pregnant.
So really that long?
Oh, yeah.
I still deal with a decade.
Yeah, I still have food issues.
(07:47):
I still have a very warped relationship with food.
You should know that.
I do.
I do.
It's it's yeah, it's not healthy.
OK, so so when you get pregnant, you're like, well, I can't you know, I can't do this to
my kid.
I can't starve my child in my womb.
And then there was like, oh, I could eat and be fat and nobody will say anything because
(08:09):
I'm pregnant.
So then I overeat.
Interesting.
So but going back to still the middle school and high school, were there other other signs
of depression besides anorexia?
Sure.
Do you recluse anything?
Self harm.
Self harm.
(08:30):
You know, I did some experimenting with drugs and alcohol as a teenager.
OK.
More than experimenting.
And is it the typical cliche answer of I want to escape or I no longer want to?
Oh yeah, it's not cliche.
It's you're you're self soothing.
Yeah.
You're numbing.
(08:51):
And people could do that with lots of different things.
It doesn't have to be drugs and alcohol.
People numb with sex.
People numb with shopping.
People numb with food.
People numb with gambling.
People numb with lots of different things.
And so I was exploring how to numb, you know, and the waves of depression would come and
go.
And sometimes they would be severe and other times it would just be kind of in the background.
(09:15):
And yeah, that's kind of the way it's been.
And you you think getting saved, you would not deal with those things.
But I can't say that that's the case for me.
And I don't know if that's the case for I'd have to survey a bunch of Christians to know
that if that's the case.
The stuff with Christians is a lot of times you've really got to break through the walls
(09:42):
and get people in a vulnerable situation before you'll get the true answer.
You know, I remember Connect Experience where you and I met for the audience.
It's just if you're new to Calvary Chapel, Fort Lauderdale, there's a class you can take
where we just kind of introduce you to the church, tell you where you can get plugged
in, introduce you to small groups, so on and so forth.
(10:03):
And you know, this is prior to me working for the church.
They they had kind of a survey where they asked, you know, what is your favorite movie?
And everybody says War Room.
Everybody says Fireproof.
And they're basically listing all the Christian movies that they know.
Not one single person put Citizen Kane, not one person put in Schindler's List, not one
(10:25):
person put in Inception.
None of these massive amazing movie because they were answering the church way because
they were in church.
And you have to be really careful of that.
And I think this would be one of those situations where, you know, if you're talking to someone,
they you have to get them in the right situation before they would ever pony up that they are
(10:49):
a Christian that suffers from depression.
And I'm I tend to be more even a little bit more vocal about some of my struggles and
it makes people uncomfortable.
So for sure.
Which is interesting.
Yeah, you would think that people would feel your vulnerability gives them license to also
be vulnerable.
But because people don't know how to cope with hard truths.
(11:15):
And there's this illusion that Christians are supposed to be happy all the time, which
I don't understand where people get this because in scripture, Jesus tells us we are going
to endure suffering.
I just don't I don't know where the illusion comes from, but that everybody should be to
live their best life now, you know, as some pastors say across the United States, it's
(11:41):
that prosperity gospel has seeped into even really good fundamental churches where the
concept is if you're blessed by God and the Old Testament saints believe this too.
If you you know, if something was wrong with you, it's like, well, what's wrong with your
faith?
You know, what did you do to anger God?
(12:01):
That if you were truly a believer, life would be the best here.
And that's just not that's not reality.
And it's very deceptive.
And people get really disappointed in God because they've been told that I'm supposed
to have my best life now and I'm supposed to be happy and I'm supposed to be successful
(12:22):
and wealthy and wise.
And that's not that's not the reality we live in.
And so when someone comes face to face with the reality of depression or anxiety and they
go, well, it doesn't look like this pastor is telling me it's supposed to look like what's
wrong with me?
What's wrong with God?
Doesn't he care that I feel this way?
So it's it's insidious and it's dangerous.
(12:44):
And the reality is, you know, there are a lot of people walking around myself included
when you listen, when you come from a dysfunctional family, you learn to be an actor.
Sure.
But you act to survive, you act OK to survive.
And there are lots of people putting on a happy face, myself included.
And inside I'm dying.
(13:06):
Inside I'm really torn up and I and I just smile and, you know, I serve in ministry and
I take care of people and I go about life and I'm not OK.
I'm not.
So that's where I'm at today.
And I wish I had answers for the audience.
I wish I could give you some great formula to make it all better, but I don't have it
(13:26):
for myself and I certainly can't give it to anyone else.
I think today is more about asking the questions and understanding than it is giving solutions.
Yes, I think there's a lot of people that are ill equipped to handle these types of
things, even as your husband sitting across the table from you.
I wish I knew and understood more because then I could be a better support system.
(13:49):
You're a great support system and you're learning as you go along, just like I learned you as
we grow together.
When what's what's interesting is.
As the man.
A lot of times.
My how I measure the success of me being a husband is contingent upon you.
(14:11):
Right.
It's my job to to serve you, to protect you, all of these things.
And if I'm putting in a ton of work trying to cook for you, make sure the house is clean,
make sure mom and dad are taken care of and you're still depressed.
That as a man, it can be very easy to mess, get mentally messed up and make all of a sudden
(14:39):
it seem like.
I'm doing something wrong or I'm not good enough that just as a husband, it's very easy.
I have to catch myself and just go, hey, you're you're in a you're in I don't know what word
to say other than maybe like a funk.
And I don't mean that, you know, to make a light of it.
But you're going through one of these seasons for one reason or another.
(15:03):
And it's not a reflection of you.
Yeah.
And that's one of those things.
Probably when you have the question of, you know, why can't I get out of this or, you
know, why God, why have you forgotten about me?
You know, whatever questions you have as a husband, you can also struggle with the same
kind of thing, even though I mentally know it's not my fault or I'm not the cause of
(15:27):
it or I or even I can't do anything to fix it.
This is 99 percent God to help you at this time.
And it's one percent my job to and my job is to reinforce the image of Christ as your
husband.
It still can be tough.
Is my depression depressing you?
(15:49):
No, I don't feel like I'm struggling with depression at all.
What it can again, what it can do is is make me feel devalued as a husband.
But then that's when I realize.
But again, this is one of the this is one of those really intimate areas where we have
(16:13):
to remind ourselves that Christ.
This is the area where he can help and I can't.
Yeah, I can.
I can do some things, but there are areas of people's lives that are meant to be for
Christ and not for your significant other.
There are areas when my brother died, there are things that my dad can help my mom with
(16:37):
and there are areas where he cannot because it was not meant for him to fix the deepest,
most inner part of you and your brokenness and your happiness and so on and so forth.
The deepest parts that's meant for Christ.
And I think if I go try and enter into that space and fix things, I've lost my identity.
(16:59):
I've lost my place in the household.
I can make things worse.
There are lots of things can go wrong there.
I think just those deepest, most intimate areas of people's lives that is reserved for Christ.
Yeah.
And men and women, if you're listening, if there are those deep, intimate parts of your
(17:21):
life that you're giving to your significant other and you're coming back empty, check
and make sure that you're supposed to be taking that to them instead of Christ because that's
Hannah's prayer in Samuel, 1 Samuel.
(17:44):
She did everything right except she took some things to men instead of taking it to God.
And this is an area where for the most part, you've got to work this out with Christ.
I'm here to love you.
I'm here to serve you.
Yeah.
I don't want you to feel like you're not doing enough or that you're not enough because I'm
(18:06):
not well and that puts a lot of pressure on you and it puts a lot of pressure on me to
act.
Maybe I should act happy so that he'll feel good and it becomes a vicious cycle and I
can't act anymore.
I just don't have the energy to do it.
So let's go back to you in high school.
(18:29):
So when you find out you're pregnant, the eating, you kind of pivot on that as you mentioned
because you can.
How does that impact the depression for you?
Are you all of a sudden joyful because now you have a new purpose?
(18:52):
You have a child that's going to be entering into the world.
Does it get worse because oh my goodness, all the pressure that comes with having a child
in this, how does that impact the struggle?
I mean, I'm sure if we got my son on the podcast, he would say that there were times I was not
a happy mom.
I definitely do believe postpartum depression is very, very real.
(19:15):
It's not talked about as much as it could be.
You're not forewarned that you're definitely in a chemical imbalance after childbirth.
I went through a severe depression.
Well, I can't say severe because I'm a kid and it's just me and I'm not depending on
(19:37):
my parents to take care of me.
I'm not living in their house.
And so it was kind of like, well, you're the grownup now.
So you have this little baby you're going to have to deal.
But the depression was real.
It was more like, how am I going to be a good parent to this child?
I don't know what the heck I'm doing.
(19:59):
I was with the baby's father who was a hot mess and yeah, it wasn't fun.
You're saying um a lot.
I'm going to have to edit a lot of this out so be conscious of the ums.
So did Anthony's father, how was he aware that you were struggling with depression?
(20:30):
Do you think he had enough emotional intelligence to realize that?
I don't think he cared much about anything but himself.
So it was an inconvenience to deal with my depression.
So he self-soothed as well.
I think he was a very broken man.
So he used video games.
(20:52):
I mean, people pick up their phone nows and they don't think it's an addiction, but like
he would pick up the video game controller and play for 10 hours.
It's easier to take that dopamine hit than it is to sit and have a hard conversation
and support in a way.
So do you think that made things worse for you?
(21:13):
I mean, how could it not?
Yeah, I was ignored.
I was what in my mind was rejection.
I would rather play with a video game than deal with your emotions and that's what happened.
And ultimately, the demise of the marriage was I stayed a lot longer than most people
(21:35):
would have just because I was a kid and I wanted my son to have a dad to grow up with.
But there came a point where depression or no depression, because that comes and goes
in waves, this person was not healthy for me.
This person brought out the worst in me.
And if I would have stayed, I would have been a shell of a woman.
(21:55):
And so would have my son.
And so you end up leaving.
How much time passes between you leaving and you finding your first husband?
Was it quick, quick turnaround or was it a longer period of time?
(22:16):
It was a quick turnaround.
I guess when you you just I was not an emotionally healthy woman.
I feel like we're really hitting that hard.
And so I went from one relationship to another.
So it was maybe six months and I found this guy that told me everything I wanted to hear.
You know, I want to take care of you.
(22:38):
I want to take care of your son like he's my own.
I was living in the ghetto eating peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and top ramen and this
guy was going to take care of me so I didn't have to work and blah, blah, blah, sold me
a very convincing bill of goods.
And he was handsome and educated and very different than my son's father.
(22:58):
And I thought, well, he's the exact opposite.
This has to be right.
Look at him.
And do you think you mentioned a bill of goods that he sold?
Do you think that played to the depression, like the needs that you were emotionally feeling
with Anthony's father with your family prior to that was the bill of goods that was being
(23:22):
sold to you?
Do you feel like that was in theory going to satisfy those needs?
Do you think?
Oh, absolutely.
I had the impression that if I was a kept woman, as he had offered, that life would
be great.
And that wasn't the case.
And you know me as your wife, like being home and just being home, taking care of the house
(23:45):
is not I go a little stir crazy.
Not that I think homemaking isn't a wonderful job and that it is a wonderful endeavor.
I just never felt like that was my I never felt like that that's where I fit the most.
And maybe because I saw my mother that worked really hard her whole life.
There was no homemaking.
(24:07):
There was survival for her.
And so I think that was modeled.
If I had like one of those really like June Cleaver moms, I mean, if that even exists,
not a mom that stayed home and really loved to do like baking and cleaning and all those
wonderful things, I may have had a different impression.
But I you know, I thought that's what it was going to be like.
And it wasn't.
(24:28):
And so yeah, the the depression kind of hit even harder when I'm when I moved to another
state and had to reestablish myself and
meaning finding new friends finding that that all added to the depression.
You were having to again, you're you're not feeling great about your you're not feeling
(24:49):
great about yourself, period.
And now you have to again, go act for people and be happy and be joyful.
And I wasn't joyful because I had an emotionally abusive husband that I was dealing with.
And I was away from my family and away from my friends and away from what was familiar.
(25:09):
And so, yeah, that was a hard time.
And then I went on antidepressants.
And that made me like a zombie.
I was on those for probably about six months.
And the doctor said, you know, give it like 90 days, you'll start to feel better.
90 days came around and I felt really numb, which maybe that's what they meant feeling
(25:31):
better was supposed to feel like.
But I felt like I was walking like the walking dead.
I felt very calm and I felt very like nothing bothered me, but nothing excited me.
Nothing I was like.
I don't know.
I was not myself.
And I knew it.
Yes.
(25:52):
Almost emotionally flat.
Yes.
I was apathetic about everything.
And that's that's not you.
That is not me.
And so I took myself off of that.
And I think maybe taking myself off of it abruptly and not listening to maybe I was
supposed to take less and then maybe wean off of it.
I just was like, no, I'm not doing this.
(26:15):
But yeah, so there now that I talk about it, there were lots of stages of depression in
my life.
It's kind of embarrassing to talk about.
No.
Well, it shouldn't be.
I think this is this needs to be talked about.
OK, like how long have you been saved?
When did you get saved?
I've been saved since I was 33 and I'm forty nine.
(26:39):
OK, so 16 years and you're 16 years into your walk with Christ and you still struggle with
this.
And I don't.
Fun.
Yeah, I don't say that in an accusing or what's wrong.
But it's just the reality.
It doesn't.
What's interesting with your story is there are aspects of you that literally when you
(27:01):
got saved, it completely died like your desire to smoke.
You were what?
Correct me.
Keep me honest here.
But you were a smoker for many, many years.
Oh, heavy smoker.
Yeah.
How would from two packs a day?
Yeah.
And how long do you think you did that?
I was 16 when I started smoking and quit smoking the year I got saved.
(27:22):
So I was 33 when I stopped and I smoked ultimately a pack a day and then on the weekends, Friday,
Saturday and Sunday were two packs a day.
And how many times do you think you tried to stop smoking before getting saved?
Five, six.
OK, so half a dozen times over the course, you know, once every couple of years, two
(27:43):
and a half years or so.
And how long would you make it?
Day a week, a month?
No, I was pretty headstrong.
So like, you know, two months.
OK, so you would get going on it.
Yeah.
And then inevitably.
This would happen.
And I would use, you know, I have to cope.
I have to have a cigarette.
(28:05):
So that's one of those burdens for you that when you got saved, you prayed, God, I need
you to take this away from me.
And he did.
So how many times have you prayed that God would take away depression?
Do you ever say, God, I know you can do this.
(28:26):
You've shown me before that you could do this and pray a prayer going, God, can you take
this from me?
Not can you?
I know you can.
Please take this away.
I've said I don't want to do this anymore.
I haven't said take it from me.
Because I don't know that that's what's supposed to happen.
(28:47):
Maybe I'm supposed to go running to Jesus every time I'm depressed.
And ultimately, like, people can tell you all the right things and they're all right.
They can give you great scriptures and they're all right.
They're absolutely right.
Give me one of the scriptures that people have told you before.
(29:07):
I don't know.
Think on things that are lovely and trustworthy and of good report.
As a man thinketh, so he is.
Do you feel those are over quoted?
People that don't know what to say, they'll go and quote the same scriptures over and
(29:33):
over again, not entering into the trenches.
What is your experience?
I think my experience is, and even you had suggested I go talk to a friend of ours and
I was just like, yeah, no.
I don't think because sometimes people don't actually know what it physiologically feels
(29:54):
like to be depressed, that those things are true.
But if I could do those things, if I could just think on things that are lovely, don't
you think I would have done that already?
Don't you think I would have done that already?
You think I want to feel this way?
Yeah, like it's almost aggravating to hear people say that.
I know.
I know those are the right things to do.
(30:15):
If I could do them, I would.
The effort and energy to do anything is just, it's hard.
Sometimes even just getting out of bed and taking a shower is hard.
It's interesting because for people that don't struggle with depression, it's easy to turn
(30:38):
on a light switch that is get out of bed and go about your day.
But when you struggle with depression, you're flipping the switch but the lights don't go
on almost is what it seems like.
Yes, you're doing all the right things.
You're getting up, you're going to work, you're getting your makeup on, you're putting on
your uniform, you're brushing your hair, you're brushing your teeth, you're doing all the
(31:00):
things that normal people do.
You're trying to take a walk at lunchtime, you're reading your Bible, all of those things.
I'm doing all of those things.
There is no light coming on.
It's very interesting.
Why do you think you haven't prayed to God and asked Him, please take this from me?
You feel like if He doesn't, you'd be disappointed?
(31:23):
Do you feel like, yeah, what is, if you're going to struggle with something for 40 years?
I remember your son is going through a season in life where things are changing so rapidly
and you asked him a question, have you ever thought about praying about this one aspect
(31:45):
of his life?
And his response to you was actually, no, I didn't because I don't want to go to God
and be disappointed.
And that was a very interesting response.
That's got to be a very common response amongst Christians because that was a very honest
response from him.
Yeah, it was honest.
(32:06):
I was impressed that he was that honest with us.
So do you feel like you haven't gone to God and asked for it because you don't want to
be disappointed if He doesn't take it the way He took the desire to smoke away from
you?
Maybe.
Yeah?
I don't know what else to say.
(32:30):
Maybe.
You'd have to think about that, huh?
It sounds strange to say out loud and I'm rubbing my face in stress to say it, but yeah,
what if He doesn't take it away and I'm still stuck?
(32:52):
What does that mean?
That I'm supposed to go through this with Him?
And that could very well be the case.
It doesn't mean He's not good.
It's the exact opposite.
I know what you need to come to me and maybe this is what I need to come to Him.
(33:14):
No one can fix this with Jesus.
You can't fix it.
I can't fix it.
It's only Jesus.
Yeah, I can do little things here and there, but they're not healing things.
They're just servant things.
And I think He shows me me, like my propensity to want to just give up.
The propensity to just want to go, I'm done.
(33:36):
That is something I've been fighting my whole life.
You've mentioned that that's kind of a survival mentality, right?
That you put things in boxes and stuff them away when you're done with them emotionally.
So do people over-quote Paul?
(33:57):
What was Paul's?
I just had it in my brain.
Oh, I may have forgotten it.
Oh, no, just the thorn in Paul's flesh where Jesus says, my grace is sufficient.
Have you heard that one over and over and over again?
Not too many times, but I have heard it.
So people don't throw that passage at you when you talk about depression?
(34:19):
No, I don't think people have a book of going, okay, someone has depression.
Let me quote them these scriptures.
I just think people try to say the right thing and I know that they're well-intentioned.
And typically the best thing that people can do is just to pray with me instead of praying
(34:40):
for me or at me, if that makes sense.
Like I'm some kind of dysfunctional basket case that, oh, I'll just pray over you.
Like I'll just, yeah, I'll pray.
And I love when people say that and then don't do it.
It's like, don't bother saying that.
It's Christian.
It's the Christian thing to say.
Well, I think that's BS.
(35:02):
Yeah.
But how many times does that happen?
I mean, I've said that to somebody and literally just forgot to pray.
When I say that, I literally in my head right then and there stop and say a quick prayer
just so I know that my words are true.
And then if I can remember later in the day, pray something much more deep or meaningful.
I say it right then and there because I don't want to be a hypocrite.
(35:24):
Yeah.
Whenever you'll text me, sometimes you'll just text me two words, please pray.
As long as I'm not in the middle of a meeting or this, that, or the other, I'll typically
stop right then and there.
And even sometimes if I'm in a meeting where I can take 30 seconds to pray, I will.
(35:46):
Yeah.
But-
Appreciate that.
Yeah.
I would be a hypocrite if I said, yeah, I never tell people I'm going to pray for them
and I don't.
It does happen.
I'm sure it happens occasionally.
Yeah.
But I think it's interesting that you haven't prayed, God take this from me.
(36:12):
But on the days that you are praying, do you ever get any word from God?
Do you ever get any passages from Him?
Any words of wisdom from Him?
Does He speak to you ever in 40 years?
Oh, I'm sure.
If I can pinpoint one particular time, I'm sure I would.
(36:38):
But I don't know.
It's just hard to remember all the times that He's spoken.
So-
I know that He loves me.
I know that on my worst day, He loves me the same as He does on my best day.
(37:04):
And I know a lot of things intellectually, and that's my problem.
There's so much intellect in my faith, which I needed to be saved.
I needed to understand something beyond what I was told in Catholic school, or I needed
something beyond what was being preached at me.
(37:26):
I needed to understand why God was who He said it was.
So I did a lot of study.
I still do a lot of study.
And I feel there's a place of worship in the study.
There's some times where my intellect is so stimulated and I'm so amazed that I feel
like that is an act of worship, but that's not the only way to live out the Christian
(37:50):
experience.
And I sometimes don't move into the more- I don't move from intellect to experience
as easily as I could.
Maybe if I ask God to manifest Himself to me in a very, I don't know, tangible way,
(38:16):
I'm sure He would.
I remember when I was not saved, I prayed that once and was completely overwhelmed by
the presence of God.
I'll never forget that experience.
Walk us through that.
I was leaving my ex-husband after- Ex-husband one or two?
One, after finding out that he had slept with this woman.
(38:41):
And I was in a lot of pain and I was weeping and crying to the point where I- I don't know
if you've ever experienced- maybe not, but I was crying so hard I was almost suffocating
myself.
I was just- I could not breathe.
I could not get a word out of my mouth.
If I wanted to cry out for help, I couldn't.
I was choking in my own grief.
(39:05):
And I was drowning.
And I cried out in my spirit.
Like I didn't even- I couldn't get the words out of my mouth.
I just said, help me God.
And I've never experienced this ever before and I hope I'll get to experience it again.
(39:29):
And I know when I'm in his presence in heaven I'll experience it.
But the most remarkable thing happened.
Every ounce of my body relaxed and I had just the most amazing sense of calm.
It was euphoric.
The tears completely stopped instantly.
I could breathe.
I could breathe out of my nose.
(39:50):
My lungs were clear.
My vision was clear.
It was like I hadn't even cried.
It was just- it was supernatural.
And the sense of calm I had was just like I could feel a thick presence in the room
with me that I was okay.
And I was dumbfounded by that.
(40:11):
I was really- I think that was like God's real first tangible taste of who he was in
my life.
And I was desperately not a believer.
I was very, very wicked and he showed himself to me.
And that rocked my world in a way that I tucked away in my heart because I told my atheist
husband at the time who I was divorcing just because I had to tell somebody.
(40:37):
It was like remarkable.
It was like how do you not tell somebody that just happened?
And he laughed at me.
So but I thought I know what I felt.
I know that was real.
But to have that kind of experience all the time is just not realistic.
But God is very much present and very much real.
(40:58):
And that was probably that moment in time that memory locked into my heart.
And when I did finally get saved, he brought that to my remembrance.
Like I'm real.
Yeah.
And so we've talked about your youth.
We've talked about your first marriage.
How about the second marriage?
What role did depression play in that?
(41:22):
Was your ex-husband, was he supportive?
Was he confused?
Was it a hey, just shake this off kind of thing?
He was a counselor.
He was the youngest drug counselor in the United States.
Like he has that on his, you know, his resume.
(41:45):
So he had a very counselor like demeanor about my depression, but often always brought, like
he did with most things, brought it back to, well, what's wrong with you?
Let's look at what's wrong with you.
And that doesn't help depression very much.
Sometimes it's helpful because you can work through some things.
(42:05):
I'm not saying it wasn't completely devoid of some sort of help, but ultimately he used
that in everything.
And, you know, it always made me feel like there's something fundamentally wrong with
me and my DNA and it's just never going to get better.
So why bother talking about it?
So shove it down even more.
(42:27):
Yeah.
Suck it up.
And I've sucked it up a long time and I've done a lot of hard things in the midst of
depression and I've survived and no one can doubt that I'm a survivor.
I'd really like to be a thriver more often than a survivor, but.
(42:47):
Early in the episode, you mentioned that you've had an odd relationship with food your entire
life.
Do you think that continues because of depression?
Do you think that plays a role in any of it these days?
Oh, sure.
I think depression can be very physiological and sometimes your body is lacking certain
things and so, you know, if you're lacking dopamine, sugar's a great way to get it.
(43:11):
Chocolate chip cookie feels real good.
It's a dopamine hit.
Sure.
So finding comfort in food rather than going to Christ.
I think that's there's there's at least an episode, if not multiple episodes.
I think that's an area people talk about addiction to drugs, addiction to alcohol, addiction
(43:31):
to all sorts of things and nobody you never hear anybody talk about addiction to food
hardly ever.
I know.
Was it was it Lisa Terkhurst?
Yes.
She wrote about.
Made to Crave.
Yeah, that's a great book.
It's out there by Lisa Terkhurst that actually addresses this.
But yeah, I think the church doesn't ever talk about it.
(43:52):
Yeah, we don't talk about the fact that gluttony is a form of idolatry and that we use food
as a source of comfort and we use it as a source to self-soothe and it's there in our
best moments.
It's there in our worst moments and that's taking the place of God.
Yeah.
(44:13):
And so you do you feel like you still struggle with that then?
I can do that at times for sure.
Yeah.
For sure.
And then you feel fat and then you look at yourself and that's a whole nother set of
problem I think that's far more indicative to women dealing with depression than men.
(44:33):
Men can get fat and don't care.
They just buy a bigger pair of pants and you're just like, you just gained 40 pounds.
You're not upset about that.
But women, you know, you put on five pounds and your whole identity is rocked.
And I might be just speaking for myself.
I don't know if every woman feels this way, but there's far more pressure on women to
(44:54):
be beautiful and I think we're wired to see beauty just like men are wired to see adventure.
And when we aren't beautiful because we've stuffed ourselves with food because we feel
bad about ourselves, we wound up kind of going through this vicious cycle.
(45:15):
Food makes me feel better.
But when I'm done, there's guilt and shame.
I look at myself.
I don't like what I see.
And so then I cycle back around to let me feel better and eat.
And it's vicious.
It's vicious.
Yeah, it absolutely is.
And you think when you were younger, you said stress triggered the smoking.
(45:38):
Would smoking also play a similar role years ago where smoking made you feel good?
No, I always liked smoking.
Oh, you just you just flat out liked it.
It was.
It was very enjoyable.
But I knew that I was doing something that was gross.
Like you know, I would I was at that point years ago as a yoga instructor and I used
(45:59):
to have these nightmares that I was teaching a yoga class smoking a cigarette and just
the shame of that.
But I would go home after teaching fitness all day and, you know, put on a shower cap
so my hair wouldn't stink.
And I'd, you know, kind of take off all the clothes that I was, you know, gym wearing
and put on a robe and smoke like five cigarettes in my garage and then take a shower.
(46:23):
So nobody knew I smoked.
I mean, I went through great lengths to be a smoker.
Clearly.
It was ridiculous.
It was like I was like, yeah, I had it.
Yeah, you had it all thought through.
My goodness.
And then I finally was like, I like this, but I don't like this enough to continue the
insanity.
But I mean, anyone that's a smoker that's smoking likes smoking.
(46:45):
Sure.
So what I've asked the questions that have come to my mind around depression.
Is there anything I haven't asked that I should have asked?
It would be a good opportunity to educate the audience on things that you can think
of as someone that struggles with this.
(47:12):
There's there's opportunity to look at somebody that's depressed.
And there's a propensity to look at them as weak.
And the reality is that most people dealing with depression have dealt with some very,
very hard things in life.
(47:34):
And have overcome those things.
And the depression is the manifestation of their survival.
So I would say to people who have friends in their life that are depressed, they're
not looking.
I can't speak for everyone.
I'm not looking for a pity party.
I'm looking to survive the best way I know how.
(47:57):
And to really be tender with people who are depressed.
They can't just snap out of it.
Otherwise they would.
And that to pray with them in authenticity, don't say you're going to pray, but pray with
them.
(48:20):
Ask them what what can I do to make you feel better?
Because sometimes it's the isolation that we put ourselves in because we don't feel
understood.
You know, if someone's willing to step into that isolation and be tender and listen and
just let me be who I am.
(48:41):
And if I'm depressed that day, I don't have to put on a happy face for you.
I can just be.
It kind of makes me think of Winnie the Pooh.
I think Winnie the Pooh did a really good job of showing Eeyore as a depressed character.
And yet Winnie the Pooh and Piglet and Tigger never tried to make Eeyore something he wasn't.
(49:07):
They didn't try to cheer him up.
They just spent time with him.
And I think it's actually probably a much deeper cartoon than people give credit to.
And you know, when I feel safe and I feel like I'm not being judged, I'm more likely
going to come out of my shell and feel like I can just show up and not have to put on
(49:29):
a mask.
And that's when I know I have a true friend.
Like I, I tend to find friends that I'm, I'm always playing counselor to, and I don't
have friends that necessarily do the same thing for me.
I do have a handful of people that do that in my life, but just letting someone show
(49:53):
up the way that they are without trying to fix.
I don't need to be fixed.
I need to be loved the way that I am and I need to be prayed for.
Yeah, that, that's always, I think people underestimate the value of prayer because
rarely do you get that instant gratification that society is always looking for in prayer.
(50:18):
I mean, my goodness, how many times have we prayed for your son?
How many times have we prayed for unsaved family members and they're, they're still
on that prayer list.
Yeah.
So I think a lot of times prayer can be, I don't know.
It's not instant gratification typically.
Right.
It can be.
Yeah, I mean it can.
It can, but yeah, it's usually a marathon and not a sprint.
(50:43):
That's a good point.
So well, thank you for opening up and being vulnerable.
I know this is not easy, especially when you're going through the season of depression hitting
right smack dab in the holidays.
Mom's got a heart surgery tomorrow, you know, whole slew of things.
The family was just in town.
(51:04):
Both my family followed right behind.
It was your family.
So right when life is at its busiest, this is, you know, hitting.
So thank you for opening up and wish we had more answers, but it's good just to sit down
and hear it straight from you what it's, what it's like and how to, how to serve someone
(51:26):
that is suffering from depression because I think it's becoming more and more common
these days.
My goodness.
Yeah, I would say so.
So well, thank you so much for opening up guys.
We appreciate you listening and hanging out with us.
Thanks.
Hope you had a great Thanksgiving.
Christmas is right around the corner.
(51:46):
That is crazy.
Yeah, I know.
Brace yourselves, get ready for family and food and all that good stuff.
But we will talk to you guys here in another couple of weeks.
Yeah.
Thank you so much.
Hope you enjoyed watching soon.
(52:39):
Thanks for watching guys!
Hey Detours Family, welcome to another episode here in Season 5.
(00:24):
I am here with my beautiful wife Deb.
Hi guys.
As always, thank you for listening.
Today we are going to be touching on a subject that is a little nerve wracking for Deb.
I can see here and I'm sitting here watching her and she's breathing deep as we get ready
to dive into this episode.
Yeah, I'm not looking forward to this.
Oh my goodness.
(00:45):
Oh my goodness.
So today we're going to be talking about depression.
As Christians, just like a few episodes ago, we talked about anxiety and how sometimes
as the Christian church we don't talk about depression or even acknowledge the fact that
Christians can absolutely have depression.
(01:05):
And a lot of times when you admit that, there are responses from Christians that really
indicate that they don't understand what it's like to have depression.
Right.
Unless you walk through somebody's shoes, you can give a whole bunch of platitudes,
you can give a whole bunch of scriptures and not that scriptures aren't powerful, but if
(01:28):
you haven't walked the journey, you just don't know.
Yeah.
You just don't.
Yeah.
So the reason you kind of sighed at the beginning of the episode when I introduced it is because
you from time to time will suffer from depression.
Yes, severely.
Yeah.
And you're going through a bit of a bout of it right now.
(01:49):
And what's so interesting as your husband is, I would tell anyone that you have more
joy in your life than anyone I know.
You're constantly happy.
Your birthday was not long ago and you're just like, I just want to go have fun.
And what's fun for you is trampoline parks and what do you do?
(02:11):
Rock climbing and all sorts of things.
So your idea of fun where for me an idea of fun is let me go see a movie, a Marvel movie
or something.
So you're very joyful and yet you, how long have you had bouts with depression?
How long back do you remember?
Since childhood, for sure.
(02:33):
So what do you see?
Elementary school?
Kindergarten?
Really?
That early?
Oh yeah, for sure.
And what does depression look like for someone in kindergarten, first, second, third grade,
whatever that is?
Well, I mean, you know, it's hard to explain the need for validation and attention from
(02:56):
an emotionally distant family was definitely difficult.
I was teased and mocked a lot.
I was bullied a lot as a kid and I needed to be able to express that feeling of shame
and feeling of rejection with anyone who would listen and nobody would.
(03:17):
It was like, oh, just ignore them.
What do they know?
You know, that sounds pretty Italian.
Yeah, buttercup.
Everybody gets teased.
This is a rite of passage.
You're so dramatic.
It was my favorite trigger words in all of my entire life is you're so dramatic, which
(03:42):
really just diminishes your pain because they don't know how to deal with it.
So, do you mean it amplifies the pain?
Not diminish?
No, well, it amplifies my pain, but they're trying to diminish it because they don't know
how to.
Okay, that's what they're trying to do to you is diminish.
Okay.
So, it seemed like you're making a mountain out of a molehill and they're pointing at
(04:05):
the molehill rather than acknowledging the mountain.
Right.
Gotcha.
Okay.
And any true dysfunctional family will make very small things into big things and make
very big glaring dysfunction, pain or trauma into very small things.
That's just the way it works.
Interesting.
(04:26):
And so that started at a very young age for you.
Yes.
Now that can see, so when you're in, let's say second grade, whatever it is, how does
depression manifest itself in you?
I had an eating disorder very young in life.
(04:46):
So trying to control my emotions through food.
I cried a lot.
Well, even just what you said there with eating.
So it was anorexia, bulimia, what are we talking about?
Which is so odd.
It's self-punishing.
Well, and it's also, you come from a family, Italians, they literally place value on food.
(05:11):
Yeah.
So that's interesting.
Do you think that played a part in it?
You saw how much they all valued food?
No, I think the, to be perfectly frank, and I know that we haven't actually spent any
time on our podcast discussing sexual abuse in any great detail, but I do believe childhood
(05:32):
sexual abuse played a role in the anorexia because it was a hatred of my body.
It was a hatred of feeling like I was out of control in my circumstances and food was
the one thing I could control.
But it also just gave me a sense of empowerment to say no to something everybody else would
(05:54):
was saying yes to.
Interesting.
So when, at what age did that start roughly?
Seven.
Seven years old.
You started having eating disorders.
Yeah.
And so this continues on what changes between elementary school and middle school, junior
(06:15):
high age.
Oh, I move from one state to another, which made things, you know, difficult at that age.
When you grow up in a school and you're even even if you've been bullied, you know, you
grow up in a school and you know all the same faces and you're familiar and you know the
culture, you know, Texas culture and Jersey culture, very different, very, very different.
(06:40):
Italians fit in one somewhat easily and not so much in the other.
Correct.
So just changing schools was another source of grief and pain and teasing and mockery.
Yeah, I really didn't.
I would not relive my childhood or you know how people are like, oh, the glory days of,
(07:01):
you know, like high school years.
You couldn't pay me enough money to go back and live any of those years.
I did not enjoy growing up.
I found kids to be very mean.
And when you're in middle school, is the anorexia still there?
Oh, yeah.
How long does that last?
(07:26):
I battled the the anorexia itself, probably where I was starving myself, probably ended
in my like when I got pregnant.
So really that long?
Oh, yeah.
I still deal with a decade.
Yeah, I still have food issues.
(07:47):
I still have a very warped relationship with food.
You should know that.
I do.
I do.
It's it's yeah, it's not healthy.
OK, so so when you get pregnant, you're like, well, I can't you know, I can't do this to
my kid.
I can't starve my child in my womb.
And then there was like, oh, I could eat and be fat and nobody will say anything because
(08:09):
I'm pregnant.
So then I overeat.
Interesting.
So but going back to still the middle school and high school, were there other other signs
of depression besides anorexia?
Sure.
Do you recluse anything?
Self harm.
Self harm.
(08:30):
You know, I did some experimenting with drugs and alcohol as a teenager.
OK.
More than experimenting.
And is it the typical cliche answer of I want to escape or I no longer want to?
Oh yeah, it's not cliche.
It's you're you're self soothing.
Yeah.
You're numbing.
(08:51):
And people could do that with lots of different things.
It doesn't have to be drugs and alcohol.
People numb with sex.
People numb with shopping.
People numb with food.
People numb with gambling.
People numb with lots of different things.
And so I was exploring how to numb, you know, and the waves of depression would come and
go.
And sometimes they would be severe and other times it would just be kind of in the background.
(09:15):
And yeah, that's kind of the way it's been.
And you you think getting saved, you would not deal with those things.
But I can't say that that's the case for me.
And I don't know if that's the case for I'd have to survey a bunch of Christians to know
that if that's the case.
The stuff with Christians is a lot of times you've really got to break through the walls
(09:42):
and get people in a vulnerable situation before you'll get the true answer.
You know, I remember Connect Experience where you and I met for the audience.
It's just if you're new to Calvary Chapel, Fort Lauderdale, there's a class you can take
where we just kind of introduce you to the church, tell you where you can get plugged
in, introduce you to small groups, so on and so forth.
(10:03):
And you know, this is prior to me working for the church.
They they had kind of a survey where they asked, you know, what is your favorite movie?
And everybody says War Room.
Everybody says Fireproof.
And they're basically listing all the Christian movies that they know.
Not one single person put Citizen Kane, not one person put in Schindler's List, not one
(10:25):
person put in Inception.
None of these massive amazing movie because they were answering the church way because
they were in church.
And you have to be really careful of that.
And I think this would be one of those situations where, you know, if you're talking to someone,
they you have to get them in the right situation before they would ever pony up that they are
(10:49):
a Christian that suffers from depression.
And I'm I tend to be more even a little bit more vocal about some of my struggles and
it makes people uncomfortable.
So for sure.
Which is interesting.
Yeah, you would think that people would feel your vulnerability gives them license to also
be vulnerable.
But because people don't know how to cope with hard truths.
(11:15):
And there's this illusion that Christians are supposed to be happy all the time, which
I don't understand where people get this because in scripture, Jesus tells us we are going
to endure suffering.
I just don't I don't know where the illusion comes from, but that everybody should be to
live their best life now, you know, as some pastors say across the United States, it's
(11:41):
that prosperity gospel has seeped into even really good fundamental churches where the
concept is if you're blessed by God and the Old Testament saints believe this too.
If you you know, if something was wrong with you, it's like, well, what's wrong with your
faith?
You know, what did you do to anger God?
(12:01):
That if you were truly a believer, life would be the best here.
And that's just not that's not reality.
And it's very deceptive.
And people get really disappointed in God because they've been told that I'm supposed
to have my best life now and I'm supposed to be happy and I'm supposed to be successful
(12:22):
and wealthy and wise.
And that's not that's not the reality we live in.
And so when someone comes face to face with the reality of depression or anxiety and they
go, well, it doesn't look like this pastor is telling me it's supposed to look like what's
wrong with me?
What's wrong with God?
Doesn't he care that I feel this way?
So it's it's insidious and it's dangerous.
(12:44):
And the reality is, you know, there are a lot of people walking around myself included
when you listen, when you come from a dysfunctional family, you learn to be an actor.
Sure.
But you act to survive, you act OK to survive.
And there are lots of people putting on a happy face, myself included.
And inside I'm dying.
(13:06):
Inside I'm really torn up and I and I just smile and, you know, I serve in ministry and
I take care of people and I go about life and I'm not OK.
I'm not.
So that's where I'm at today.
And I wish I had answers for the audience.
I wish I could give you some great formula to make it all better, but I don't have it
(13:26):
for myself and I certainly can't give it to anyone else.
I think today is more about asking the questions and understanding than it is giving solutions.
Yes, I think there's a lot of people that are ill equipped to handle these types of
things, even as your husband sitting across the table from you.
I wish I knew and understood more because then I could be a better support system.
(13:49):
You're a great support system and you're learning as you go along, just like I learned you as
we grow together.
When what's what's interesting is.
As the man.
A lot of times.
My how I measure the success of me being a husband is contingent upon you.
(14:11):
Right.
It's my job to to serve you, to protect you, all of these things.
And if I'm putting in a ton of work trying to cook for you, make sure the house is clean,
make sure mom and dad are taken care of and you're still depressed.
That as a man, it can be very easy to mess, get mentally messed up and make all of a sudden
(14:39):
it seem like.
I'm doing something wrong or I'm not good enough that just as a husband, it's very easy.
I have to catch myself and just go, hey, you're you're in a you're in I don't know what word
to say other than maybe like a funk.
And I don't mean that, you know, to make a light of it.
But you're going through one of these seasons for one reason or another.
(15:03):
And it's not a reflection of you.
Yeah.
And that's one of those things.
Probably when you have the question of, you know, why can't I get out of this or, you
know, why God, why have you forgotten about me?
You know, whatever questions you have as a husband, you can also struggle with the same
kind of thing, even though I mentally know it's not my fault or I'm not the cause of
(15:27):
it or I or even I can't do anything to fix it.
This is 99 percent God to help you at this time.
And it's one percent my job to and my job is to reinforce the image of Christ as your
husband.
It still can be tough.
Is my depression depressing you?
(15:49):
No, I don't feel like I'm struggling with depression at all.
What it can again, what it can do is is make me feel devalued as a husband.
But then that's when I realize.
But again, this is one of the this is one of those really intimate areas where we have
(16:13):
to remind ourselves that Christ.
This is the area where he can help and I can't.
Yeah, I can.
I can do some things, but there are areas of people's lives that are meant to be for
Christ and not for your significant other.
There are areas when my brother died, there are things that my dad can help my mom with
(16:37):
and there are areas where he cannot because it was not meant for him to fix the deepest,
most inner part of you and your brokenness and your happiness and so on and so forth.
The deepest parts that's meant for Christ.
And I think if I go try and enter into that space and fix things, I've lost my identity.
(16:59):
I've lost my place in the household.
I can make things worse.
There are lots of things can go wrong there.
I think just those deepest, most intimate areas of people's lives that is reserved for Christ.
Yeah.
And men and women, if you're listening, if there are those deep, intimate parts of your
(17:21):
life that you're giving to your significant other and you're coming back empty, check
and make sure that you're supposed to be taking that to them instead of Christ because that's
Hannah's prayer in Samuel, 1 Samuel.
(17:44):
She did everything right except she took some things to men instead of taking it to God.
And this is an area where for the most part, you've got to work this out with Christ.
I'm here to love you.
I'm here to serve you.
Yeah.
I don't want you to feel like you're not doing enough or that you're not enough because I'm
(18:06):
not well and that puts a lot of pressure on you and it puts a lot of pressure on me to
act.
Maybe I should act happy so that he'll feel good and it becomes a vicious cycle and I
can't act anymore.
I just don't have the energy to do it.
So let's go back to you in high school.
(18:29):
So when you find out you're pregnant, the eating, you kind of pivot on that as you mentioned
because you can.
How does that impact the depression for you?
Are you all of a sudden joyful because now you have a new purpose?
(18:52):
You have a child that's going to be entering into the world.
Does it get worse because oh my goodness, all the pressure that comes with having a child
in this, how does that impact the struggle?
I mean, I'm sure if we got my son on the podcast, he would say that there were times I was not
a happy mom.
I definitely do believe postpartum depression is very, very real.
(19:15):
It's not talked about as much as it could be.
You're not forewarned that you're definitely in a chemical imbalance after childbirth.
I went through a severe depression.
Well, I can't say severe because I'm a kid and it's just me and I'm not depending on
(19:37):
my parents to take care of me.
I'm not living in their house.
And so it was kind of like, well, you're the grownup now.
So you have this little baby you're going to have to deal.
But the depression was real.
It was more like, how am I going to be a good parent to this child?
I don't know what the heck I'm doing.
(19:59):
I was with the baby's father who was a hot mess and yeah, it wasn't fun.
You're saying um a lot.
I'm going to have to edit a lot of this out so be conscious of the ums.
So did Anthony's father, how was he aware that you were struggling with depression?
(20:30):
Do you think he had enough emotional intelligence to realize that?
I don't think he cared much about anything but himself.
So it was an inconvenience to deal with my depression.
So he self-soothed as well.
I think he was a very broken man.
So he used video games.
(20:52):
I mean, people pick up their phone nows and they don't think it's an addiction, but like
he would pick up the video game controller and play for 10 hours.
It's easier to take that dopamine hit than it is to sit and have a hard conversation
and support in a way.
So do you think that made things worse for you?
(21:13):
I mean, how could it not?
Yeah, I was ignored.
I was what in my mind was rejection.
I would rather play with a video game than deal with your emotions and that's what happened.
And ultimately, the demise of the marriage was I stayed a lot longer than most people
(21:35):
would have just because I was a kid and I wanted my son to have a dad to grow up with.
But there came a point where depression or no depression, because that comes and goes
in waves, this person was not healthy for me.
This person brought out the worst in me.
And if I would have stayed, I would have been a shell of a woman.
(21:55):
And so would have my son.
And so you end up leaving.
How much time passes between you leaving and you finding your first husband?
Was it quick, quick turnaround or was it a longer period of time?
(22:16):
It was a quick turnaround.
I guess when you you just I was not an emotionally healthy woman.
I feel like we're really hitting that hard.
And so I went from one relationship to another.
So it was maybe six months and I found this guy that told me everything I wanted to hear.
You know, I want to take care of you.
(22:38):
I want to take care of your son like he's my own.
I was living in the ghetto eating peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and top ramen and this
guy was going to take care of me so I didn't have to work and blah, blah, blah, sold me
a very convincing bill of goods.
And he was handsome and educated and very different than my son's father.
(22:58):
And I thought, well, he's the exact opposite.
This has to be right.
Look at him.
And do you think you mentioned a bill of goods that he sold?
Do you think that played to the depression, like the needs that you were emotionally feeling
with Anthony's father with your family prior to that was the bill of goods that was being
(23:22):
sold to you?
Do you feel like that was in theory going to satisfy those needs?
Do you think?
Oh, absolutely.
I had the impression that if I was a kept woman, as he had offered, that life would
be great.
And that wasn't the case.
And you know me as your wife, like being home and just being home, taking care of the house
(23:45):
is not I go a little stir crazy.
Not that I think homemaking isn't a wonderful job and that it is a wonderful endeavor.
I just never felt like that was my I never felt like that that's where I fit the most.
And maybe because I saw my mother that worked really hard her whole life.
There was no homemaking.
(24:07):
There was survival for her.
And so I think that was modeled.
If I had like one of those really like June Cleaver moms, I mean, if that even exists,
not a mom that stayed home and really loved to do like baking and cleaning and all those
wonderful things, I may have had a different impression.
But I you know, I thought that's what it was going to be like.
And it wasn't.
(24:28):
And so yeah, the the depression kind of hit even harder when I'm when I moved to another
state and had to reestablish myself and
meaning finding new friends finding that that all added to the depression.
You were having to again, you're you're not feeling great about your you're not feeling
(24:49):
great about yourself, period.
And now you have to again, go act for people and be happy and be joyful.
And I wasn't joyful because I had an emotionally abusive husband that I was dealing with.
And I was away from my family and away from my friends and away from what was familiar.
(25:09):
And so, yeah, that was a hard time.
And then I went on antidepressants.
And that made me like a zombie.
I was on those for probably about six months.
And the doctor said, you know, give it like 90 days, you'll start to feel better.
90 days came around and I felt really numb, which maybe that's what they meant feeling
(25:31):
better was supposed to feel like.
But I felt like I was walking like the walking dead.
I felt very calm and I felt very like nothing bothered me, but nothing excited me.
Nothing I was like.
I don't know.
I was not myself.
And I knew it.
Yes.
(25:52):
Almost emotionally flat.
Yes.
I was apathetic about everything.
And that's that's not you.
That is not me.
And so I took myself off of that.
And I think maybe taking myself off of it abruptly and not listening to maybe I was
supposed to take less and then maybe wean off of it.
I just was like, no, I'm not doing this.
(26:15):
But yeah, so there now that I talk about it, there were lots of stages of depression in
my life.
It's kind of embarrassing to talk about.
No.
Well, it shouldn't be.
I think this is this needs to be talked about.
OK, like how long have you been saved?
When did you get saved?
I've been saved since I was 33 and I'm forty nine.
(26:39):
OK, so 16 years and you're 16 years into your walk with Christ and you still struggle with
this.
And I don't.
Fun.
Yeah, I don't say that in an accusing or what's wrong.
But it's just the reality.
It doesn't.
What's interesting with your story is there are aspects of you that literally when you
(27:01):
got saved, it completely died like your desire to smoke.
You were what?
Correct me.
Keep me honest here.
But you were a smoker for many, many years.
Oh, heavy smoker.
Yeah.
How would from two packs a day?
Yeah.
And how long do you think you did that?
I was 16 when I started smoking and quit smoking the year I got saved.
(27:22):
So I was 33 when I stopped and I smoked ultimately a pack a day and then on the weekends, Friday,
Saturday and Sunday were two packs a day.
And how many times do you think you tried to stop smoking before getting saved?
Five, six.
OK, so half a dozen times over the course, you know, once every couple of years, two
(27:43):
and a half years or so.
And how long would you make it?
Day a week, a month?
No, I was pretty headstrong.
So like, you know, two months.
OK, so you would get going on it.
Yeah.
And then inevitably.
This would happen.
And I would use, you know, I have to cope.
I have to have a cigarette.
(28:05):
So that's one of those burdens for you that when you got saved, you prayed, God, I need
you to take this away from me.
And he did.
So how many times have you prayed that God would take away depression?
Do you ever say, God, I know you can do this.
(28:26):
You've shown me before that you could do this and pray a prayer going, God, can you take
this from me?
Not can you?
I know you can.
Please take this away.
I've said I don't want to do this anymore.
I haven't said take it from me.
Because I don't know that that's what's supposed to happen.
(28:47):
Maybe I'm supposed to go running to Jesus every time I'm depressed.
And ultimately, like, people can tell you all the right things and they're all right.
They can give you great scriptures and they're all right.
They're absolutely right.
Give me one of the scriptures that people have told you before.
(29:07):
I don't know.
Think on things that are lovely and trustworthy and of good report.
As a man thinketh, so he is.
Do you feel those are over quoted?
People that don't know what to say, they'll go and quote the same scriptures over and
(29:33):
over again, not entering into the trenches.
What is your experience?
I think my experience is, and even you had suggested I go talk to a friend of ours and
I was just like, yeah, no.
I don't think because sometimes people don't actually know what it physiologically feels
(29:54):
like to be depressed, that those things are true.
But if I could do those things, if I could just think on things that are lovely, don't
you think I would have done that already?
Don't you think I would have done that already?
You think I want to feel this way?
Yeah, like it's almost aggravating to hear people say that.
I know.
I know those are the right things to do.
(30:15):
If I could do them, I would.
The effort and energy to do anything is just, it's hard.
Sometimes even just getting out of bed and taking a shower is hard.
It's interesting because for people that don't struggle with depression, it's easy to turn
(30:38):
on a light switch that is get out of bed and go about your day.
But when you struggle with depression, you're flipping the switch but the lights don't go
on almost is what it seems like.
Yes, you're doing all the right things.
You're getting up, you're going to work, you're getting your makeup on, you're putting on
your uniform, you're brushing your hair, you're brushing your teeth, you're doing all the
(31:00):
things that normal people do.
You're trying to take a walk at lunchtime, you're reading your Bible, all of those things.
I'm doing all of those things.
There is no light coming on.
It's very interesting.
Why do you think you haven't prayed to God and asked Him, please take this from me?
You feel like if He doesn't, you'd be disappointed?
(31:23):
Do you feel like, yeah, what is, if you're going to struggle with something for 40 years?
I remember your son is going through a season in life where things are changing so rapidly
and you asked him a question, have you ever thought about praying about this one aspect
(31:45):
of his life?
And his response to you was actually, no, I didn't because I don't want to go to God
and be disappointed.
And that was a very interesting response.
That's got to be a very common response amongst Christians because that was a very honest
response from him.
Yeah, it was honest.
(32:06):
I was impressed that he was that honest with us.
So do you feel like you haven't gone to God and asked for it because you don't want to
be disappointed if He doesn't take it the way He took the desire to smoke away from
you?
Maybe.
Yeah?
I don't know what else to say.
(32:30):
Maybe.
You'd have to think about that, huh?
It sounds strange to say out loud and I'm rubbing my face in stress to say it, but yeah,
what if He doesn't take it away and I'm still stuck?
(32:52):
What does that mean?
That I'm supposed to go through this with Him?
And that could very well be the case.
It doesn't mean He's not good.
It's the exact opposite.
I know what you need to come to me and maybe this is what I need to come to Him.
(33:14):
No one can fix this with Jesus.
You can't fix it.
I can't fix it.
It's only Jesus.
Yeah, I can do little things here and there, but they're not healing things.
They're just servant things.
And I think He shows me me, like my propensity to want to just give up.
The propensity to just want to go, I'm done.
(33:36):
That is something I've been fighting my whole life.
You've mentioned that that's kind of a survival mentality, right?
That you put things in boxes and stuff them away when you're done with them emotionally.
So do people over-quote Paul?
(33:57):
What was Paul's?
I just had it in my brain.
Oh, I may have forgotten it.
Oh, no, just the thorn in Paul's flesh where Jesus says, my grace is sufficient.
Have you heard that one over and over and over again?
Not too many times, but I have heard it.
So people don't throw that passage at you when you talk about depression?
(34:19):
No, I don't think people have a book of going, okay, someone has depression.
Let me quote them these scriptures.
I just think people try to say the right thing and I know that they're well-intentioned.
And typically the best thing that people can do is just to pray with me instead of praying
(34:40):
for me or at me, if that makes sense.
Like I'm some kind of dysfunctional basket case that, oh, I'll just pray over you.
Like I'll just, yeah, I'll pray.
And I love when people say that and then don't do it.
It's like, don't bother saying that.
It's Christian.
It's the Christian thing to say.
Well, I think that's BS.
(35:02):
Yeah.
But how many times does that happen?
I mean, I've said that to somebody and literally just forgot to pray.
When I say that, I literally in my head right then and there stop and say a quick prayer
just so I know that my words are true.
And then if I can remember later in the day, pray something much more deep or meaningful.
I say it right then and there because I don't want to be a hypocrite.
(35:24):
Yeah.
Whenever you'll text me, sometimes you'll just text me two words, please pray.
As long as I'm not in the middle of a meeting or this, that, or the other, I'll typically
stop right then and there.
And even sometimes if I'm in a meeting where I can take 30 seconds to pray, I will.
(35:46):
Yeah.
But-
Appreciate that.
Yeah.
I would be a hypocrite if I said, yeah, I never tell people I'm going to pray for them
and I don't.
It does happen.
I'm sure it happens occasionally.
Yeah.
But I think it's interesting that you haven't prayed, God take this from me.
(36:12):
But on the days that you are praying, do you ever get any word from God?
Do you ever get any passages from Him?
Any words of wisdom from Him?
Does He speak to you ever in 40 years?
Oh, I'm sure.
If I can pinpoint one particular time, I'm sure I would.
(36:38):
But I don't know.
It's just hard to remember all the times that He's spoken.
So-
I know that He loves me.
I know that on my worst day, He loves me the same as He does on my best day.
(37:04):
And I know a lot of things intellectually, and that's my problem.
There's so much intellect in my faith, which I needed to be saved.
I needed to understand something beyond what I was told in Catholic school, or I needed
something beyond what was being preached at me.
(37:26):
I needed to understand why God was who He said it was.
So I did a lot of study.
I still do a lot of study.
And I feel there's a place of worship in the study.
There's some times where my intellect is so stimulated and I'm so amazed that I feel
like that is an act of worship, but that's not the only way to live out the Christian
(37:50):
experience.
And I sometimes don't move into the more- I don't move from intellect to experience
as easily as I could.
Maybe if I ask God to manifest Himself to me in a very, I don't know, tangible way,
(38:16):
I'm sure He would.
I remember when I was not saved, I prayed that once and was completely overwhelmed by
the presence of God.
I'll never forget that experience.
Walk us through that.
I was leaving my ex-husband after- Ex-husband one or two?
One, after finding out that he had slept with this woman.
(38:41):
And I was in a lot of pain and I was weeping and crying to the point where I- I don't know
if you've ever experienced- maybe not, but I was crying so hard I was almost suffocating
myself.
I was just- I could not breathe.
I could not get a word out of my mouth.
If I wanted to cry out for help, I couldn't.
I was choking in my own grief.
(39:05):
And I was drowning.
And I cried out in my spirit.
Like I didn't even- I couldn't get the words out of my mouth.
I just said, help me God.
And I've never experienced this ever before and I hope I'll get to experience it again.
(39:29):
And I know when I'm in his presence in heaven I'll experience it.
But the most remarkable thing happened.
Every ounce of my body relaxed and I had just the most amazing sense of calm.
It was euphoric.
The tears completely stopped instantly.
I could breathe.
I could breathe out of my nose.
(39:50):
My lungs were clear.
My vision was clear.
It was like I hadn't even cried.
It was just- it was supernatural.
And the sense of calm I had was just like I could feel a thick presence in the room
with me that I was okay.
And I was dumbfounded by that.
(40:11):
I was really- I think that was like God's real first tangible taste of who he was in
my life.
And I was desperately not a believer.
I was very, very wicked and he showed himself to me.
And that rocked my world in a way that I tucked away in my heart because I told my atheist
husband at the time who I was divorcing just because I had to tell somebody.
(40:37):
It was like remarkable.
It was like how do you not tell somebody that just happened?
And he laughed at me.
So but I thought I know what I felt.
I know that was real.
But to have that kind of experience all the time is just not realistic.
But God is very much present and very much real.
(40:58):
And that was probably that moment in time that memory locked into my heart.
And when I did finally get saved, he brought that to my remembrance.
Like I'm real.
Yeah.
And so we've talked about your youth.
We've talked about your first marriage.
How about the second marriage?
What role did depression play in that?
(41:22):
Was your ex-husband, was he supportive?
Was he confused?
Was it a hey, just shake this off kind of thing?
He was a counselor.
He was the youngest drug counselor in the United States.
Like he has that on his, you know, his resume.
(41:45):
So he had a very counselor like demeanor about my depression, but often always brought, like
he did with most things, brought it back to, well, what's wrong with you?
Let's look at what's wrong with you.
And that doesn't help depression very much.
Sometimes it's helpful because you can work through some things.
(42:05):
I'm not saying it wasn't completely devoid of some sort of help, but ultimately he used
that in everything.
And, you know, it always made me feel like there's something fundamentally wrong with
me and my DNA and it's just never going to get better.
So why bother talking about it?
So shove it down even more.
(42:27):
Yeah.
Suck it up.
And I've sucked it up a long time and I've done a lot of hard things in the midst of
depression and I've survived and no one can doubt that I'm a survivor.
I'd really like to be a thriver more often than a survivor, but.
(42:47):
Early in the episode, you mentioned that you've had an odd relationship with food your entire
life.
Do you think that continues because of depression?
Do you think that plays a role in any of it these days?
Oh, sure.
I think depression can be very physiological and sometimes your body is lacking certain
things and so, you know, if you're lacking dopamine, sugar's a great way to get it.
(43:11):
Chocolate chip cookie feels real good.
It's a dopamine hit.
Sure.
So finding comfort in food rather than going to Christ.
I think that's there's there's at least an episode, if not multiple episodes.
I think that's an area people talk about addiction to drugs, addiction to alcohol, addiction
(43:31):
to all sorts of things and nobody you never hear anybody talk about addiction to food
hardly ever.
I know.
Was it was it Lisa Terkhurst?
Yes.
She wrote about.
Made to Crave.
Yeah, that's a great book.
It's out there by Lisa Terkhurst that actually addresses this.
But yeah, I think the church doesn't ever talk about it.
(43:52):
Yeah, we don't talk about the fact that gluttony is a form of idolatry and that we use food
as a source of comfort and we use it as a source to self-soothe and it's there in our
best moments.
It's there in our worst moments and that's taking the place of God.
Yeah.
(44:13):
And so you do you feel like you still struggle with that then?
I can do that at times for sure.
Yeah.
For sure.
And then you feel fat and then you look at yourself and that's a whole nother set of
problem I think that's far more indicative to women dealing with depression than men.
(44:33):
Men can get fat and don't care.
They just buy a bigger pair of pants and you're just like, you just gained 40 pounds.
You're not upset about that.
But women, you know, you put on five pounds and your whole identity is rocked.
And I might be just speaking for myself.
I don't know if every woman feels this way, but there's far more pressure on women to
(44:54):
be beautiful and I think we're wired to see beauty just like men are wired to see adventure.
And when we aren't beautiful because we've stuffed ourselves with food because we feel
bad about ourselves, we wound up kind of going through this vicious cycle.
(45:15):
Food makes me feel better.
But when I'm done, there's guilt and shame.
I look at myself.
I don't like what I see.
And so then I cycle back around to let me feel better and eat.
And it's vicious.
It's vicious.
Yeah, it absolutely is.
And you think when you were younger, you said stress triggered the smoking.
(45:38):
Would smoking also play a similar role years ago where smoking made you feel good?
No, I always liked smoking.
Oh, you just you just flat out liked it.
It was.
It was very enjoyable.
But I knew that I was doing something that was gross.
Like you know, I would I was at that point years ago as a yoga instructor and I used
(45:59):
to have these nightmares that I was teaching a yoga class smoking a cigarette and just
the shame of that.
But I would go home after teaching fitness all day and, you know, put on a shower cap
so my hair wouldn't stink.
And I'd, you know, kind of take off all the clothes that I was, you know, gym wearing
and put on a robe and smoke like five cigarettes in my garage and then take a shower.
(46:23):
So nobody knew I smoked.
I mean, I went through great lengths to be a smoker.
Clearly.
It was ridiculous.
It was like I was like, yeah, I had it.
Yeah, you had it all thought through.
My goodness.
And then I finally was like, I like this, but I don't like this enough to continue the
insanity.
But I mean, anyone that's a smoker that's smoking likes smoking.
(46:45):
Sure.
So what I've asked the questions that have come to my mind around depression.
Is there anything I haven't asked that I should have asked?
It would be a good opportunity to educate the audience on things that you can think
of as someone that struggles with this.
(47:12):
There's there's opportunity to look at somebody that's depressed.
And there's a propensity to look at them as weak.
And the reality is that most people dealing with depression have dealt with some very,
very hard things in life.
(47:34):
And have overcome those things.
And the depression is the manifestation of their survival.
So I would say to people who have friends in their life that are depressed, they're
not looking.
I can't speak for everyone.
I'm not looking for a pity party.
I'm looking to survive the best way I know how.
(47:57):
And to really be tender with people who are depressed.
They can't just snap out of it.
Otherwise they would.
And that to pray with them in authenticity, don't say you're going to pray, but pray with
them.
(48:20):
Ask them what what can I do to make you feel better?
Because sometimes it's the isolation that we put ourselves in because we don't feel
understood.
You know, if someone's willing to step into that isolation and be tender and listen and
just let me be who I am.
(48:41):
And if I'm depressed that day, I don't have to put on a happy face for you.
I can just be.
It kind of makes me think of Winnie the Pooh.
I think Winnie the Pooh did a really good job of showing Eeyore as a depressed character.
And yet Winnie the Pooh and Piglet and Tigger never tried to make Eeyore something he wasn't.
(49:07):
They didn't try to cheer him up.
They just spent time with him.
And I think it's actually probably a much deeper cartoon than people give credit to.
And you know, when I feel safe and I feel like I'm not being judged, I'm more likely
going to come out of my shell and feel like I can just show up and not have to put on
(49:29):
a mask.
And that's when I know I have a true friend.
Like I, I tend to find friends that I'm, I'm always playing counselor to, and I don't
have friends that necessarily do the same thing for me.
I do have a handful of people that do that in my life, but just letting someone show
(49:53):
up the way that they are without trying to fix.
I don't need to be fixed.
I need to be loved the way that I am and I need to be prayed for.
Yeah, that, that's always, I think people underestimate the value of prayer because
rarely do you get that instant gratification that society is always looking for in prayer.
(50:18):
I mean, my goodness, how many times have we prayed for your son?
How many times have we prayed for unsaved family members and they're, they're still
on that prayer list.
Yeah.
So I think a lot of times prayer can be, I don't know.
It's not instant gratification typically.
Right.
It can be.
Yeah, I mean it can.
It can, but yeah, it's usually a marathon and not a sprint.
(50:43):
That's a good point.
So well, thank you for opening up and being vulnerable.
I know this is not easy, especially when you're going through the season of depression hitting
right smack dab in the holidays.
Mom's got a heart surgery tomorrow, you know, whole slew of things.
The family was just in town.
(51:04):
Both my family followed right behind.
It was your family.
So right when life is at its busiest, this is, you know, hitting.
So thank you for opening up and wish we had more answers, but it's good just to sit down
and hear it straight from you what it's, what it's like and how to, how to serve someone
(51:26):
that is suffering from depression because I think it's becoming more and more common
these days.
My goodness.
Yeah, I would say so.
So well, thank you so much for opening up guys.
We appreciate you listening and hanging out with us.
Thanks.
Hope you had a great Thanksgiving.
Christmas is right around the corner.
(51:46):
That is crazy.
Yeah, I know.
Brace yourselves, get ready for family and food and all that good stuff.
But we will talk to you guys here in another couple of weeks.
Yeah.
Thank you so much.
Hope you enjoyed watching soon.
(52:39):
Thanks for watching guys!
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