February 17, 2025 • 52 mins
Enabling often feels like love, but is it truly helping? In this episode, we dive into the tough reality of enabling—what it is, how it affects relationships, and why setting boundaries is both biblical and necessary. With real-life examples and Scripture-based wisdom, we explore how to love others without fueling unhealthy patterns. If you’ve ever struggled with saying "no" or wondered if you’re truly helping someone, this episode is for you. Tune in as we uncover the difference between grace and enabling, and how to walk in truth while showing Christ-like love.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome detours family to another episode. I am here with my beautiful wife, Deb. Hi guys. And we are here ready to kick off another episode. Yes, we are. We are going to be doing a
(00:26):
podcast. We are ready to kick off another episode. Yes, we are. We actually were talking, we got up this morning, we were talking about something and we kind of said, hey, time out, this would be a great episode for the podcast. For sure. And the topic we were discussing was enablers and enabling.
So both of us have experience, you know, being enablers and being enabled and probably everyone listening has been in one one camp or the other at some point in time. Maybe you want something really bad. So you know, you're enabling or who knows, there's all sorts of causes for this.
(01:03):
I would like to claim that I don't think I've enabled because I've seen so much of it in my family dynamic in my extended family, that it was always very offensive to me. So I tried very hard through the course of my parenting and through relationships to not to not do the enabling. But I have a good handle on why people enable I think it's my theory. I don't know if I'm right.
(01:32):
That's true. Who knows? We'll find out. Let's let's let's unpack all this. So if you've got such a rich history of family enabling, like what what are some things that you notice?
Okay, well, let's talk about what an actual enabler is. It's, it's someone that's going to clean up on someone else's self destructive patterns, and not allow them to face the consequences of their own actions and their own choices. And people do this inadvertently because they think they're being loving to a loved one to a spouse to a friend. And in all actuality, I think it causes a tremendous amount of damage, not just to the
(02:14):
not only to the relationship, but the person that's consistently being rescued is put in a position of being a victim over and over and over again. So the enabler gets to play the hero. And look how good I am. And the victim gets to play the victim. And the game goes around and around and around until somebody goes, oh, this isn't working.
(02:39):
If that even happens so many times, if you're not taught by someone else, or it's not, you know, that can be a huge, tremendous blind spot in a relationship. For sure. And even then, if somebody points it out, are you even open to hearing it?
That's a good point. I think you have to be self aware. And that's not something everybody is willing to do. Because looking at your flaws is uncomfortable.
(03:03):
Well, to me, it's even more than just being self aware, right? And even when we were discussing things this morning, you gave the example of, hey, I'm Irish, therefore, I'm angry and I drink alcohol. Right? So they're aware, but they don't care enough to do anything about it. So on and so forth.
So on and so forth. Yeah, that's the claiming a banner over yourself. Because everyone's always done this in our family. And this is just the way we are. Yeah. Or our culture. Yes. Yeah. So it's more than just awareness, because you can be blatantly aware of something and still not care. I don't know, maybe because it's hard to change. Maybe because secretly you like it, there's probably a lot of different reasons for it. But even just awareness is only part of the battle.
(03:49):
Right. That's true. Even in our brokenness, we may, you know, do something wrong, and we're aware of it. So we go and apologize for it.
With no intention of really changing. Because change is hard. Or you could have the desire to, but you're scared to. You know, there could be any number of reasons why that could happen. But, you know, enablers, yeah, I think there's definitely a level of, I think, self or just what am I? What am I growing for? Almost like self pleasing. You know, they're trying to be loved.
(04:30):
That's a great point. It's the I want to identify myself as someone who helps and fixes and it makes me seem like a good person. If I rescue, you see this a lot in parent child relationships or in relationships where you're married to an addict. Where what are people going to think if I don't help this person? They're going to think that I don't care. And I know I care deeply, but I'm more concerned about,
(05:00):
people pleasing than I am about what does God want me to do? What's the hard thing to do? And what's the easy thing to do? And typically, God's going to put you in the path of the hard thing to do because people pleasing can be very easy. I want everyone to think I'm a good parent. I want everyone to think I'm a good spouse. If I let my child fall on his butt, what are people going to say about me? And I think people get really entrenched in that, especially in a family dynamic where, you know,
(05:30):
people have the concept that they can speak into your life because I'm your family member. I can say whatever I want.
And I think this is why society is where life is really good. Drift away from God because now all of a sudden, instead of relying on God to teach you through the hard things,
(05:55):
people are like, oh, no, I can just fix this or my friend will just fix this. I can keep moving forward and, you know, go off the handle because I know I'm not going to have to deal with those consequences where in God's economy, you always deal with those consequences.
Oh, yeah. Even in the course of God forgiving you, He can forgive you of atrocious things, but you're still paying the consequences of those choices because He's a good Father. So if you go to prison for selling drugs or committing a crime, you can ask and seek forgiveness from a holy God and truly repent and be forgiven.
(06:36):
But you're still in jail. You still have to face the consequences of your actions. And if God didn't let you face the consequences of your actions, there would be no growth. There would be no perseverance. And I don't think that would make Him a good Father.
Yeah. Yeah. He's all about souls and changing people into images of His Son.
(06:59):
Amen.
So if you need to go through the fire to do that, that's what He's going to allow. That's what He's going to have happen. But it's interesting because people, I think so many people are, they become enablers and they don't even realize that they are. They could literally sit there and give you the Webster's dictionary definition of an enabler and not even realize that they're doing it. And what's amazing too is, you know, I think that's the way that God is.
(07:29):
So many times, like you said, your entire family is made up of enablers all over the place. Did you ever catch flack for when you sat there and said, you know what, I'm not going to enable this?
Yes, a lot.
There has to be, you get tremendous guilt all over that. What do you mean, Debra? You're not stepping in to fix this situation. You have the ability to do that.
(07:52):
Right. When you break outside of the family dynamic, whether it's healthy or unhealthy, and typically when you're breaking out of something, it's unhealthy, you're no longer participating in the toxicity or the just, just the insanity.
People have a lot to say about that. People are like, what do you mean? And you have to be willing to face almost like the ridicule and the guilt and the shame that comes along with somebody disapproving of your choice.
(08:28):
Because what is more important, what God wants me to do or what my family thinks is best? And they're not doing the right thing anyway.
So when I look at my extended family, I see obviously a lot of dysfunction. Otherwise, we wouldn't be having this conversation today.
And I go, how could you possibly have a voice or speak into my choice when you continue to repeat the same pattern that has yielded no fruit, has yielded no benefit to anybody? If anything, it's made things worse.
(09:00):
Yeah, that's what makes it so hard. You can be the one that's trying to break the cycle. And the people that are still in the cycle are just piling on making it harder for you to break the cycle and guilting you into why are you trying to do something healthy?
Because they feed off of that. They feed off of the enabling.
(09:23):
Yeah.
And so to see someone step outside of that, it's almost like, well, why are you starving this?
Yeah. It's like when someone gets well in a dysfunctional family, it shines a light on how dysfunctional they actually are.
And it's uncomfortable because now you've put me in a position where I look bad. And I can't have that. What are people going to say?
(09:48):
I mean, I think that was a family motto for the longest time is what are people going to say?
Like, it's so like, why do you care what people say? Why do you care?
Yeah, I don't remember who said it. And I'm probably butchering it. But there was a saying I heard a long time ago that said something along the lines of you wouldn't worry so much about what other people think of you when you realize how little they do.
(10:09):
Oh, that's great. And but it's we'll sit and talk to ourselves in our mind and just obsess over things when the rest of the world has plenty of other things to do. And we're sitting there worrying and talking ourselves in and out of doing things all the time.
Yeah.
Because of that, that peer pressure, but I think in in in enabling, especially when it comes from your family of origin, right? The guilt that you can get when you just sit there and stand up and go, No, you know what, I'm not going to do this anymore. That's just as powerful and difficult to deal with as breaking the cycle.
(10:45):
Yeah. And sometimes you have to you create distance and say, for a time, I had to distance myself and say, No, I can't spend time with you right now. Because it was just too it was too painful.
Yeah. And I know that you did that with several very close family members that you got to make that difficult decision. The intent is not there to never talk to them again. But during a season, yeah, you may have to pull away from people.
(11:13):
And and that's actually very healthy. It's not as if you're building a wall and saying, you know, I'm done with you. It's for the time being, in order for me to get healthy. I need to remove myself from a situation that is very clearly not healthy.
But it's just think of diet. If you're trying to get more healthy, are you going to hang out with a bunch of people that just eat garbage all the time? Or are you just going to go, hey, for now, I got to hang out with people that go to the gym, take care of themselves, so on and so forth. Because I know if I hang out with you, you're going to be eating a big old fat piece of chocolate cake. And I just can't deal with that right now. I'm trying my best. So the same type of situation. This is a spiritual health and a mental health issue. That
(12:02):
you have to okay for a season, you know, I got to go on a spiritual diet here. Because this is not healthy. I'm trying to break out of the cycle. And I need to cast these these people and these habits as far away from me until I can build up the discipline to slowly reintroduce that into my life.
(12:22):
Yeah, I think it's also a good practice to hang out with people who are going to call you to account of that people who don't enable people who are maybe participating in a relationship, whether it be parent, child, spouse, co worker, where you can see they're clearly not an enabler and like leaning from that.
(12:46):
And then you and then the flip side of that is asking yourself, what, what am I gaining by rescuing? Like doing that self evaluation and doing that with Jesus because we don't self evaluate very well without the Word, without God.
God has a tender way of lifting up the scriptures to you and showing a mirror of who you are. And sometimes it's very like, oof, that's, that is what I'm doing, Lord. I'm sorry. How do I not do it? And what is the root cause? And that's always what I'd like to get to when I, when I try to break a pattern is what is the root lie that I believe that makes me do this pattern?
(13:30):
What have I invited into my life to make me believe that this pattern is beneficial?
And one of those things that I'll notice is idolatry is one of those sources for enabling. If that person has become an idol in your life to the point where you're lifting them up on a pedestal, you'll come in to rescue that idol over and over and over again.
(14:00):
Because it's hard to see an idol fall.
Yes. And I think you can be your own idol too.
Of course. Or that just, just, or your own identity is so tied up in it that you go, I don't know how else to be.
Yeah. And that's idolatry. You've, I, you've idolized yourself into this identity that really isn't yours to claim. It's, it's unhealthy. It's not what God gives you an identity in.
(14:24):
And I had at one point struggled like most parents do with their teenager. You know, this was obviously years and years ago.
But and I sought counsel from someone totally outside of the realm of my sphere of influence because I wanted the most objective viewpoint I could get.
(14:46):
And I went to a church council session and spent some time discussing what my needs were, what my disappointments were, what was happening in my dynamic with my, my son.
And man, this guy was so kind, but so brutally honest. And he's like, well, that's because your son's an idol.
(15:11):
And initially I kind of recoiled back from it. I didn't say, no, that's not true. I wasn't, but I recoiled at the thought of that.
And I listened and he counseled some more. And when I got home, I brought that to the throne because just because somebody says it doesn't make it true.
Always pass it through the filter.
(15:32):
Yes. And I prayed very hard like, Lord, please show me if this is true, I forgive me. I don't ever want to do that and show me how to not do it.
And I prayed and I was it was confirmed. Yeah, you're you're using your your son as your identity, being a mother and being a good mother.
(15:54):
And I air quote that because that's subjective, especially in my family.
And it took some time to really go, well, now what, Lord, what do I do different?
I don't even think that I'm doing this. How am I idolizing?
And it took some time to to work through scripture and to better understand idolatry doesn't always look the way we think it looks.
(16:20):
And and for those that are like listening that may not even understand that word, it's when you put anything in the place of God that you you pay more attention to.
You you don't think you're worshiping, but I got to tell you, we're we're made to worship.
God has made us worshippers and we're either going to worship him or something else.
And I think there was a pastor, I don't remember his name, that would say this often.
(16:45):
We are idol making factories. Our heart is making factories.
We're always looking to worship something.
And maybe it was the worship of my vision for what motherhood looked like, my vision of what my son's life could look like if I had it my way.
And all of those things were wrong.
(17:07):
All of those things were a distraction to my relationship with the living God.
And I see you see a lot of people nowadays where single moms are being celebrated like, oh, you don't need a man in the household.
You can still be a great parent and do this.
But you're a product of a different generation.
(17:28):
Was there ever any mentality like that going, hey, I'm a single mom.
I want to prove I can do this.
No, I knew that I was taking on a role that was much harder than I could handle because I had to play both nurture
and disciplinarian, which is a very difficult balance.
It's and I came from a family that were were nurturing.
(17:54):
So that was a really hard skill to learn.
And I'm sure if you ask my son, I don't know that I did a great job until I became a Christian and until I healed.
I'm sure he would be honest enough to say, yeah, you didn't really you didn't nurture either.
But from my my economy, meaning like from what I came from,
I knew even as a young teenage parent that I wanted to be different and I was determined to to be different.
(18:22):
But I never thought being a single mom was something to be celebrated.
I just knew it was hard.
And at the time, I chose to not be with his dad.
It was the healthiest choice for both me and my son. And to this day, I I don't look back and go that was a mistake.
This man was a very unhealthy man still is.
(18:45):
And I couldn't even be in his presence.
He was just yeah.
And when we say unhealthy, this was a situation where he probably was looking for an enabler.
Oh, yeah. He was right.
Like I know enough about him.
Yeah, I know enough about him to do.
Yes, know that he was an addict.
So again, you've seen these attributes over and over and over again in life.
(19:09):
So was there any point in time like when the dopamine kicks in in your brain and you're running around with this guy that you think is really, really good looking and so on and so forth at any point in time?
Do you think you enabled and then smartened up?
Do you think you never enabled like what do you think in that relationship?
Well, in that relationship, I was a kid and I also did things that he was doing.
(19:34):
So I don't know that I would call it enabling.
I would call it participating.
OK, so I partied and I did things, you know, obviously when my kid was asleep and I wasn't having to to watch him.
But so I don't know that I would call it enabling.
I would call it participating.
I would call it self-destruction choosing someone like him was because I was a very wounded young lady and he fed into my idea of what I deserved.
(20:05):
Now, I didn't know that.
But looking back in hindsight as a healed woman of God, you know, I chose I made a very poor choice in a man because of how I thought of myself.
I don't think I ever enabled him.
I it always really irked me and I always felt like I couldn't respect a man who always played victim and he was always claiming like the world was against him.
(20:32):
It's me against the world.
And he always had a poor me.
And every time I hear it, it made me cringe.
And that eventually when you lose respect for someone, it's just really hard to get that back.
Sure. And to this day, he still plays victim.
So it wasn't as if he he was ever going to change.
(20:53):
And eventually I saw that and I was like, I can't I can't raise my kid with a guy that plays victim.
That's going to pass down.
That's a that's a gross trait that I don't want my son to witness.
Yeah, you know, and after he left, he still saw his his kid occasionally and my son still saw the victim mentality.
(21:16):
And I think to this day now as a grown man of his own, he knows that that was the right choice.
Sure. Because he doesn't want to be anything like him either.
Yeah. And it's it's crazy how it's a difficult decision.
When you think about it logically, it shouldn't be a difficult decision.
You know, if somebody sits something on the table and says, hey, this is a bottle of poison.
(21:39):
If you take it slowly, you'll die.
Nobody's going to sit there and drink that.
You're going to go, whatever.
But so many times in our lives, you know, that that poison will sit and take a sip out of it.
And we don't realize we're doing it.
And I guess I guess that's how sin works.
Right. You take one tiny little taste of that and you go, hey, look, I'm still right here next to God.
(22:01):
Yeah, I tried that and that was awesome.
But I'm still here. I still believe in God.
I still love God. So on and so forth.
But guess what? Taking that little drink gets more and more and more easy.
And all of a sudden you turn around and you're so far away from where you wanted to be.
Yeah, it's seducing. It is.
And what's interesting, too, is you're talking about family members
(22:23):
enabling or being enablers and victims and this, that and the other.
And I have some family members that in one sense are victims.
They couldn't what happened to them.
They couldn't prevent it was at no fault of theirs.
But they're not playing the role of victim, but they also can't escape it.
(22:45):
And that's that is so sad to sit and watch something was done to one family member in particular
that they did nothing wrong, but they became so hurt by what what happened
and that hurt was never healed.
So that lack of healing turned into very slow bitterness,
(23:11):
which over time when you don't deal with it turns to anger and snow that snowball effect happens.
And what's what's so interesting is that the total flip side of the coin to enabling
are these people that are victims that truly were hurt and so on and so forth.
But they never dealt with the hurt and they never dealt with this and they still go through life
(23:35):
like a wrecking ball the same way that an enabler and someone is being enabled is.
They're not an enabler.
They're not or being enabled, but they're also not healed.
Yeah, because self self self-awareness is really denial is
(23:55):
and I use the word seducing because it really does lull you in a sense of like I'm safe
because I deny that I'm hurt.
It's easy.
Yeah, because it's not having to face your vulnerabilities, right?
I'm fine.
I mean, how long did I say that my whole life?
I'm fine.
I'm okay.
(24:16):
I was in denial.
It's not it's not me.
It's you.
Yeah.
Are you giggling?
Yes.
Yeah, you hear that.
But what's what's tough about this situation that I see in my family is hurt people hurt people.
And so this person isn't running around playing victim, but they are hurt.
(24:39):
So they are hurting people and creating other victims.
And sadly, one of the people that got hurt was another family member.
And so now we've got this whole dynamic of one side of the family not talking to the other truly just because of of hurts that happened in the past
(25:01):
and the saddest part for me is both sides claim to be Christian.
Neither side is interested in asking for forgiveness and neither side is willing to forgive.
And I sit back and I look at them and I do see the fruit of the Spirit in their lives.
But it does seem to tremendously be hindered by the fact that they're not willing to face this and just go.
(25:26):
We were both wrong on some things.
We're both right on some things.
I'm sorry.
You're sorry.
We should probably go to God and get help on this.
Go to other Christian friends and get help on this.
But but that is the harder road to walk.
But it's interesting to see that dynamic because now in my family, those of us that are witnessing this kind of third hand.
(25:51):
We have to sit and we can't tell one side that we're talking to the other.
Yeah, because it just causes just tremendous arguments when in reality we love them both.
Yeah, we really, really do.
And it's so difficult as Christians to sit and see this and having other Christians act this way.
(26:12):
But it is because the pain to just turn and face it and go, I am hurt.
And that pain is blinding me.
I'm not acting in wisdom.
I'm not acting in righteousness.
Lord, please forgive me first and foremost and then go and ask for forgiveness.
(26:34):
It's so difficult.
So difficult to watch.
And it makes those of us that are there sitting back.
Yeah, we're caught in the middle.
It makes it so awkward for us at times because we have to sit.
And what's amazing is when you become hurt by something, you become a character sniper.
You'll sit there. Yes, that is true.
(26:55):
You sit there and you'll get that other person in your scope and you just snipe at their character to try and knock them down because you're hurting.
Yeah, that's one of the red flags that I'll see is people that are so bitter.
And it's something I mean, I grew up watching this.
This is what's so difficult for me is this is what was modeled for me.
(27:17):
So I do struggle with this and I'll see myself becoming a character sniper where I'm just talking bad about somebody for no reason.
I go, holy cow.
What am I doing?
Why am I doing it?
There's some level of hurt in my life.
There's some level of insecurity in my life because I'm acting like a sniper right now and I need to knock it off.
(27:38):
Amen. Amen.
That you have the wait a minute.
This looks very indicative of a pattern I've witnessed and I don't want to play.
I'm not participating in this.
Help me Lord because I'm doing it and I don't even want to do it.
How did I even get here?
I'll get in the middle of a conversation.
I'm just being really bitter and really upset about a person.
(27:59):
I turn around and go, how the heck did I get here?
20 minutes ago, I was sitting here, you know, trying to problem solve.
So, you know, my mind was somewhere totally different than where it is now.
And somehow I have this thought process that was so twisted that now I'm sitting here talking bad about a person and probably 98% of it has truly nothing to do with that person.
(28:23):
But I'm sitting here, you know, again, acting like a character sniper.
I appreciate your honesty.
It's difficult.
It's difficult.
You know, there are times where I wish I had self-awareness earlier.
You know, it's better to have it at some point.
And never at all because we see that on both sides of the fence in our family.
It's just totally oblivious to how they behave.
(28:46):
And what's that?
That's so true.
You know, the family members that I have one side in the one side of the fence, they're aware, but they're not interested in fixing it.
Where the other side of the fence isn't aware, let alone willing to do anything about it.
So it's just this standoffish situation that it's going to require a but God moment in order for it to go away.
(29:17):
But it's so sad to sit back and watch it.
Yeah.
It just goes to show you that claiming to be a Christian and even going to church and even being a Christian, it's not enough.
It's that constant going back to God as that measuring stick, as that he's the straight line.
(29:41):
Let me put myself up against him.
Correct.
And see where the bends are.
Right.
And work that out.
Work those kinks out.
I think people can theologically claim Christ, but not walk out the journey of humanity.
That is your sinful nature with Christ.
(30:03):
Yes.
It's one thing to believe what the Bible says.
It's another thing to walk in what the Bible says.
And I do believe that's why so many people are put off by Christianity.
And not just, I mean, Christians aren't the only ones that do this.
Let's be real.
We're all a bunch of hypocrites at times.
(30:25):
But it's heartbreaking when you see people who truly do understand the Bible and truly believe Jesus is the risen Son of God and there's no other way to heaven but through him.
And yet cannot walk out the journey of how hard it is to actually wrestle with God with your own sin nature.
(30:49):
Because that's what it boils down to.
We're sinners and we want what we want.
And it's in that way since the garden.
And it's hard to die to self.
And that's what it boils down to.
I'm dying to my own desire to be proud, to be right.
A lot of times it's about I want to be right.
I don't care who gets hurt.
(31:10):
I'm right.
You're wrong.
And we have a hard time dying to that part of our flesh that wants that so desperately.
We want to be right instead of being like, wow, I'm being a jerk right now.
I'm really being a jerk right now.
I'm sorry, God.
And the beauty is God goes, yeah, you are being a jerk and I love you anyway.
(31:31):
Let's work on this together.
Yeah, one of the scariest and most intimidating Bible verses when read from a particular angle is Psalm 139, 23 and 24 where it says,
Search me, O God, and know my heart.
Try me and know my anxieties and see if there's any wicked way in me and lead me in the way everlasting.
(31:57):
To sit there and have that level of openness with God, where you go, God, you see all of my blind spots, you see all of my weaknesses.
Please make me aware of them and please help me fix those.
Talk about vulnerability.
You said it early.
You use the word vulnerability.
That level of vulnerability, that's what God loves.
(32:19):
That's the area of your life that he rules over that.
He truly he understands that.
And so many times he he's the only fix.
And yet we run so far away from him on those because it does take that level of vulnerable.
A, it takes vulnerability.
B, it's going to take work.
C, it's the other way is so much easier, so much more enticing.
(32:43):
But yet God sitting there going, but will you just give this to me?
Will you work with me on it?
And the illustration that I always love to see and I have to remind myself of is I'm sitting there with a five dollar bill in my hand and I'm handing that over to Christ and he's got a ten dollar bill behind him.
(33:08):
But I'm so nervous to give him the five dollar bill because it's five dollars and I like my five dollars where he's sitting there going, but if you just give this to me, I'm going to give you ten dollars.
And it's not a prosperity.
God, this is truly has nothing to do with money.
I'm using money as the illustration.
But every time I give something over to Christ, he always gives me back something completely different.
(33:30):
That's better.
Oh, for sure.
It's a multiplication of like his blessing because you get to grow.
But those but for five dollars, I mean, I can go to Dollar Tree and I can get four items with that five dollars.
And that's what I focus on is those four items from Dollar Tree that I can pick up when in reality, God sitting there going, do you have any idea?
(33:52):
Can you just trust me and trust?
That's it.
That's why vulnerability is hard because.
We don't trust as much as we say we trust God.
And that's an easy thing.
I trust God.
I trust.
But in order to actually trust, you have to be willing to be vulnerable and willing to not understand.
(34:15):
Yes, many times.
And that's so hard for me because I'm a fixer.
Right.
I work on websites for a living.
There's always a reason if something is broken on a website, there's always a reason and you can always piece together the broken aspect.
And you go, OK, and now I'm going to fix this with Christ.
(34:37):
He's going to go, you know what?
You don't have the skill set to find this brokenness.
You need to rely on me to take you to it in a complete darkness.
You're going to follow me and my voice and I'm going to lead you to the brokenness and you're going to sit there with that brokenness.
You're going to talk to me about it and I'm going to help you fix that.
(34:59):
But if you try any other way, you're going to make things worse because this is how I get the glory is I take you to something that's been there forever.
And you just take it one little tiny piece at a time.
Every single instruction that I give you, you need to do it.
And all of a sudden, you're going to turn around and that item is going to be gone.
That website again, using that analogy, all of a sudden, the website is going to be fixed.
(35:25):
But it's so intimidating because you look through the Bible, there are so many times where God's solution to problems always changes.
Even though the problem was the same.
Look at the disciples in on the Sea of Galilee.
Sometimes he's there with them.
(35:46):
Sometimes he's not the same problem, different solutions.
And so just because God teaches you how to fix something one way doesn't mean it's going to be the exact same instance every single time to fix that item.
So you really got to rely on him and trust him.
(36:08):
That's so hard, especially when it's of us that like control and or those that.
Think very highly of themselves.
I can fix this.
Right.
I can do this.
Right.
Even even AA brings you to that level of I can't fix this.
(36:32):
Right.
It's not again, we're all made to worship.
There's a reasons why you'll notice these themes.
It's because we are wired a certain way.
And for sure, admitting that we're powerless in some of these things.
So kind of circling all the way back around to where this this episode began were powerless as enablers to break that cycle.
(36:57):
Right.
It has to be broken by the person who's self-destructive.
And Christ can help you.
Not enable he can sit there and go, you know what?
Depend on me.
Don't worry about what you you know, how you're perceived.
Don't worry.
I love you no matter what happens.
And that even that alone can be difficult, especially when you are results oriented and so on and so forth.
(37:23):
Right.
I think a boy you hit the head on and maybe you didn't say identity.
But that's what I heard is don't care what other people think because I've already given you an identity.
And I think that's a people pleaser thing that people don't recognize when they people pleases.
(37:44):
I want you to like me to accept me to want me to need me because I need you to validate who I am as a human being.
When the God of the universe already tells you who you are when you become his child, you're beloved.
You're forgiven.
(38:05):
You're you have value and worth because I shed my own blood for you.
And so when we stop focusing on getting that approval from someone else and worry more about God, do you approve of this?
Does this please you, God?
That's I think the key.
(38:26):
And I'm not saying I have it right all the time because there are times where I'm still trying to aim to please my parents or aim to fix something.
And maybe I don't say I want to thank you.
But deep down inside, I want to thank you.
Deep down inside, I want you did good.
I appreciate you.
But I but I wind up not getting that.
(38:47):
And then I'm upset when God has already said, daughter, I approve of what you're doing.
You're honoring your parents, whether they thank you or not.
Thank you. You're honoring your husband, whether you get thanked or not.
Thank you. You're honoring your your work commitments.
Like playing for an audience of one is something I have to remind myself over and over because I fall right out of that real quick.
(39:12):
There are times where I actually am looking for someone to say thank you.
But and somebody might say to me, but that's a human thing.
Of course you want to be thanked.
That's not wrong.
Words of affirmation aren't a wrong thing.
No, they're not.
They're not. But when that becomes the sole way I feel loved, then that's a problem for me.
Because I'm not always going to get words of affirmation.
(39:35):
Although I all I really have to do is look in the Bible and there's my words of affirmation.
I mean, there are plenty of scriptures to support that I am loved, that I am seen, that I will never be forsaken, that I will never be alone.
And I don't always turn to those.
And that's something that God's working on with me because I don't want to seek approval from other people.
(39:58):
I want to seek it from him.
And that's where being an enabler truly stems from is trying to serve.
You forget who your audience is.
Yes.
You forget that you're here serving Christ.
And it's very easy because, you know, like we're in a season of life right now where your parents are our ministry.
(40:20):
Our job is to love and serve your parents.
Yeah.
But I can't get my definition of success based on their happiness.
I have to turn to Christ at the end of the day and go, hey, we did a ton of work for mom and dad today.
Maybe we're getting their home ready to sell.
Maybe we're going over to the assisted living facility and doing something.
(40:41):
Who knows whatever we're doing and whether or not I did a good job that day has nothing truly to do with your parents and their opinion of me.
It has to do.
Did I?
Did I love them well today?
And did I serve them well today?
And any gratitude that's given or not given or this that that's it's nice when it comes if it doesn't come, it doesn't matter because again, they're not they're not the thermostat in my life.
(41:08):
Christ is.
So I have to turn and get that affirmation from him.
And I think that's why in the book of Revelation, one of my favorite verses talks about, you know, we get to heaven, we're going to get a little tile and it's going to have a name written on it.
And only God and only me are going to be able to read the name that's on that tile and understand it.
(41:29):
And it's because he truly is the only one that ever understands my identity.
No one else ever will.
He'll he understands it.
He's giving me that tile when I get there to go, Michael, this was always you.
And I'm going to look at it and I'm going to go, wow, yeah, that is you nailed it on the head.
And everyone else that looks at this on earth, they were judging, they were this, that and the other.
(41:54):
But you were the one that always knew.
And this makes total sense to me.
So I think even scripturally, all of that lines up.
And it's such a beautiful picture of Christ.
It is because he's the only one that knows you that deeply that so intimately.
That was what I asked you.
You're like, what's your life first?
And when you came back with that, I was like, holy moly.
(42:15):
And it was a white stone.
White stone, white tile.
And I was like, I've never heard anyone say that was their life first.
And I went back and looked at it and I was just like, holy moly.
It's very cool verse.
When you sit and meditate on that verse, I love it.
I totally love it.
But I think again, it goes all it goes back to truly your identity.
(42:39):
And when you talk about enabling and so on and so forth.
Victimhood can become your identity.
Enabling can become your identity.
Rescuer, which is enabler.
Yep.
All of these things can become your identity when in reality Christ is the only Savior.
We're here to be his hands and feet and he can work using us.
(43:01):
He wants to because in that working, he can turn us into a better picture of his son, of Christ.
And that's what he wants.
He doesn't need it, but he does want that.
And so, he'll put us in these situations.
And I'm grateful that you had this self-awareness and you were able to break out of the enablers
(43:24):
and the enabling that goes on in your family.
And again, I love this self-awareness that you have.
And I love the fact that both of us can speak into one another's lives.
Hey, Deb, do you realize this is going on?
And I love that you're open with Christ.
Thank you.
And I think at this point where, you know, when he does identify something in you like, you know,
(43:49):
back when you said your son was an idol, that's got to be a tough thing to hear.
You know, what's interesting is even I remember back the special episode we did to kick off this season
when we invited Nate and Alyssa here, they said something similar.
And I never had kids.
I never went down that path in life.
But I think looking at the youth of this country, you do see that happening.
(44:13):
And it's sad to watch it.
How many parents are not willing to discipline their kids because their kids run the show.
And they want to be liked by their kid.
Instead of being a parent, instead of being disciplinary, breaking a cycle that they see being created.
It's easier to keep that kid happy.
Put an iPad in that kid's hands and he'll be quiet.
(44:36):
You know, whatever it may be.
And look at the downfall to that.
Look at that.
What's raising your child?
Where are they getting their values from?
What habits are you creating in them now without even realizing you're creating those habits?
Sure.
And I sacrificed you so that you would like me and we could be friends.
(44:59):
And I always told my kid really early on, I'm not your friend, I'm your mom.
One day maybe we can be friends.
And to this day, like, you know, he's 30 now.
And I could say in all actuality that we are friends.
But that did not just come.
That would be because I chose to be a parent first and a friend later in life.
(45:22):
Look at the Army.
Look at the hardest part of a world economy like we're in is war.
You go into the military, those guys aren't looking to be your friend.
Right out of the gate, they're going to beat you up, man.
But down the road, after that phase passes and you realize you're never going to get there,
(45:48):
you start to see a different side.
And all of a sudden they'll start cracking some jokes.
You know, they got to bust you down.
And when you're down low, then they help pick you back up.
And I think that's you have to do that because nobody wants...
I think there's a lot of people in this country that truly don't like their kids.
Oh, they don't like their own kids because they've enabled them.
(46:13):
But they don't like what they're enabling, but they don't know how to get out of that because they're the enabler.
And they're sitting there going, I don't like this cycle.
I don't like what's going on.
They don't even look at it as a cycle.
I just don't like what's happening.
How do I stop this?
Well, you're going to have to work really hard and your kids going to hate you for a while.
What do you mean?
No, I'd rather just give them what they want.
(46:34):
Yeah.
Why would I do that?
But yet they're sitting there going, but I truly don't like my kid.
And that's such a terrible thing to say.
People have a hard time doing the hard thing.
Of course.
And but I mean consistently across the board.
And you're like, but you never get anything good the easy way.
Nothing.
I mean, look at it.
Everything that you really want that has value is hard.
(46:58):
You have to work for it.
It doesn't just come because you want it to be that way.
You have to you have to be willing to to discipline your kid when sacrifice now for the long-term goals.
Are you willing to make the sacrifice now?
Absolutely.
You know, if your kids throw in a tantrum and you're embarrassed,
(47:19):
you have two choices.
You can give that kid exactly what they're whining about and the tantrum ends and you're no longer embarrassed.
Or you can take that kid outside and decide how you're going to handle it.
And if that makes you look like a bad parent in someone else's eyes,
oh, well, I'm not going to raise a bratty human being.
(47:41):
And that's the thing that people are so uncomfortable with the impression they leave on other people.
Like, what are people again?
Wow, it's like it's like a life commandment that I grew up with.
What are other people going to think if I don't show up this way?
And I don't I'm not going to dictate how I raise the next generation based on you thinking,
(48:06):
I'm you know, wow, you're so tough on him.
I can't tell you how many times I heard my parents say that.
You're just so tough on him.
You're so hard. Why are you so hard?
And I'm thinking because you raised me, but like that's a whole nother story for a whole nother podcast.
But all those hard things made for a respectable man that stands before me now.
(48:31):
He's he's a good citizen.
He's he's respectful.
He's a hard worker.
I'm very proud of him.
And if I would have just given him what he wanted, he might have very well turned out to be a victim and lazy.
And that's not that's not good for anybody.
It's not good for him. It's not good for society.
It's not good for his future wife is well now his wife.
(48:53):
Like if I would have raised a brat, no.
Yeah, walking through life with get out of jail free cards in your back pocket.
Yeah, it's a lot different than walking around without him.
You behave differently.
Maybe not at first.
But once you have to pay that price, you learn your lesson.
I got a thank you from my kid.
Yeah. And sincere.
(49:14):
Thank you.
Not a pacifist.
Anyhow, it was a very sincere.
Hey, I didn't appreciate it at the time.
Yeah.
But now looking back, I look at all the blessings that are in my life because of some of the things that you did.
Yeah.
And I mean, that was just a couple of days ago and that I can't tell you like how incredible that felt like.
(49:35):
Because it was such a hard season for both of us.
And I made some hard choices that he didn't like and we did separate for a bit.
Like he moved across the United States and I was just like, wow, you really want to get away from me.
He's like, yeah, I do.
But now I can look back and recognize like I always knew I was doing the right thing.
(49:59):
But there's something very wonderful when your kid says, thank you.
Oh, sure.
It was intimidating to look at when it was happening.
Sure.
My goodness.
But now, you know, you knew to your core that that was the right decision and you followed through with it.
And yeah, you reap what you sow.
This is absolutely enabling is, you know, such a vivid picture of you reap what you sow.
(50:22):
Yes, it is.
So yeah, it's an interesting topic.
I think it's more prevalent in our society than we know it is.
So we just wanted to talk about this on a podcast.
You and I had some pretty interesting conversation this morning.
So we were like, hey, let's let's run in there and record this.
Let's pause the conversation and go hit record and pick this back up.
(50:43):
So I'm glad we did.
Yeah, truly an interesting topic and certainly not something that either one of us is fully immune to.
We, you know, we see the cycles in our in our family members around us.
And I'm sure, you know, I'm always trying to fight the cycle because I'm very prone.
To follow it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I can I can attest to that.
(51:04):
I see that in you and thank you.
Yeah, that's that's one of your many great attributes.
Thank you.
Anyways, maybe we'll come back to this topic another time.
There's so much to talk about on on enabling and enablers.
Yeah, there is.
There's definitely another conversation in here about, you know, pleasing God and pleasing man.
And yeah, 100%.
(51:25):
But for now, I think this is where we'll leave this topic.
Yeah.
Thank you guys for listening in.
We appreciate it as always.
Yes, we do.
We love you guys.
We will catch you in the next episode.
Bye guys.
(52:06):
Bye.
Welcome detours family to another episode. I am here with my beautiful wife, Deb. Hi guys. And we are here ready to kick off another episode. Yes, we are. We are going to be doing a
(00:26):
podcast. We are ready to kick off another episode. Yes, we are. We actually were talking, we got up this morning, we were talking about something and we kind of said, hey, time out, this would be a great episode for the podcast. For sure. And the topic we were discussing was enablers and enabling.
So both of us have experience, you know, being enablers and being enabled and probably everyone listening has been in one one camp or the other at some point in time. Maybe you want something really bad. So you know, you're enabling or who knows, there's all sorts of causes for this.
(01:03):
I would like to claim that I don't think I've enabled because I've seen so much of it in my family dynamic in my extended family, that it was always very offensive to me. So I tried very hard through the course of my parenting and through relationships to not to not do the enabling. But I have a good handle on why people enable I think it's my theory. I don't know if I'm right.
(01:32):
That's true. Who knows? We'll find out. Let's let's let's unpack all this. So if you've got such a rich history of family enabling, like what what are some things that you notice?
Okay, well, let's talk about what an actual enabler is. It's, it's someone that's going to clean up on someone else's self destructive patterns, and not allow them to face the consequences of their own actions and their own choices. And people do this inadvertently because they think they're being loving to a loved one to a spouse to a friend. And in all actuality, I think it causes a tremendous amount of damage, not just to the
(02:14):
not only to the relationship, but the person that's consistently being rescued is put in a position of being a victim over and over and over again. So the enabler gets to play the hero. And look how good I am. And the victim gets to play the victim. And the game goes around and around and around until somebody goes, oh, this isn't working.
(02:39):
If that even happens so many times, if you're not taught by someone else, or it's not, you know, that can be a huge, tremendous blind spot in a relationship. For sure. And even then, if somebody points it out, are you even open to hearing it?
That's a good point. I think you have to be self aware. And that's not something everybody is willing to do. Because looking at your flaws is uncomfortable.
(03:03):
Well, to me, it's even more than just being self aware, right? And even when we were discussing things this morning, you gave the example of, hey, I'm Irish, therefore, I'm angry and I drink alcohol. Right? So they're aware, but they don't care enough to do anything about it. So on and so forth.
So on and so forth. Yeah, that's the claiming a banner over yourself. Because everyone's always done this in our family. And this is just the way we are. Yeah. Or our culture. Yes. Yeah. So it's more than just awareness, because you can be blatantly aware of something and still not care. I don't know, maybe because it's hard to change. Maybe because secretly you like it, there's probably a lot of different reasons for it. But even just awareness is only part of the battle.
(03:49):
Right. That's true. Even in our brokenness, we may, you know, do something wrong, and we're aware of it. So we go and apologize for it.
With no intention of really changing. Because change is hard. Or you could have the desire to, but you're scared to. You know, there could be any number of reasons why that could happen. But, you know, enablers, yeah, I think there's definitely a level of, I think, self or just what am I? What am I growing for? Almost like self pleasing. You know, they're trying to be loved.
(04:30):
That's a great point. It's the I want to identify myself as someone who helps and fixes and it makes me seem like a good person. If I rescue, you see this a lot in parent child relationships or in relationships where you're married to an addict. Where what are people going to think if I don't help this person? They're going to think that I don't care. And I know I care deeply, but I'm more concerned about,
(05:00):
people pleasing than I am about what does God want me to do? What's the hard thing to do? And what's the easy thing to do? And typically, God's going to put you in the path of the hard thing to do because people pleasing can be very easy. I want everyone to think I'm a good parent. I want everyone to think I'm a good spouse. If I let my child fall on his butt, what are people going to say about me? And I think people get really entrenched in that, especially in a family dynamic where, you know,
(05:30):
people have the concept that they can speak into your life because I'm your family member. I can say whatever I want.
And I think this is why society is where life is really good. Drift away from God because now all of a sudden, instead of relying on God to teach you through the hard things,
(05:55):
people are like, oh, no, I can just fix this or my friend will just fix this. I can keep moving forward and, you know, go off the handle because I know I'm not going to have to deal with those consequences where in God's economy, you always deal with those consequences.
Oh, yeah. Even in the course of God forgiving you, He can forgive you of atrocious things, but you're still paying the consequences of those choices because He's a good Father. So if you go to prison for selling drugs or committing a crime, you can ask and seek forgiveness from a holy God and truly repent and be forgiven.
(06:36):
But you're still in jail. You still have to face the consequences of your actions. And if God didn't let you face the consequences of your actions, there would be no growth. There would be no perseverance. And I don't think that would make Him a good Father.
Yeah. Yeah. He's all about souls and changing people into images of His Son.
(06:59):
Amen.
So if you need to go through the fire to do that, that's what He's going to allow. That's what He's going to have happen. But it's interesting because people, I think so many people are, they become enablers and they don't even realize that they are. They could literally sit there and give you the Webster's dictionary definition of an enabler and not even realize that they're doing it. And what's amazing too is, you know, I think that's the way that God is.
(07:29):
So many times, like you said, your entire family is made up of enablers all over the place. Did you ever catch flack for when you sat there and said, you know what, I'm not going to enable this?
Yes, a lot.
There has to be, you get tremendous guilt all over that. What do you mean, Debra? You're not stepping in to fix this situation. You have the ability to do that.
(07:52):
Right. When you break outside of the family dynamic, whether it's healthy or unhealthy, and typically when you're breaking out of something, it's unhealthy, you're no longer participating in the toxicity or the just, just the insanity.
People have a lot to say about that. People are like, what do you mean? And you have to be willing to face almost like the ridicule and the guilt and the shame that comes along with somebody disapproving of your choice.
(08:28):
Because what is more important, what God wants me to do or what my family thinks is best? And they're not doing the right thing anyway.
So when I look at my extended family, I see obviously a lot of dysfunction. Otherwise, we wouldn't be having this conversation today.
And I go, how could you possibly have a voice or speak into my choice when you continue to repeat the same pattern that has yielded no fruit, has yielded no benefit to anybody? If anything, it's made things worse.
(09:00):
Yeah, that's what makes it so hard. You can be the one that's trying to break the cycle. And the people that are still in the cycle are just piling on making it harder for you to break the cycle and guilting you into why are you trying to do something healthy?
Because they feed off of that. They feed off of the enabling.
(09:23):
Yeah.
And so to see someone step outside of that, it's almost like, well, why are you starving this?
Yeah. It's like when someone gets well in a dysfunctional family, it shines a light on how dysfunctional they actually are.
And it's uncomfortable because now you've put me in a position where I look bad. And I can't have that. What are people going to say?
(09:48):
I mean, I think that was a family motto for the longest time is what are people going to say?
Like, it's so like, why do you care what people say? Why do you care?
Yeah, I don't remember who said it. And I'm probably butchering it. But there was a saying I heard a long time ago that said something along the lines of you wouldn't worry so much about what other people think of you when you realize how little they do.
(10:09):
Oh, that's great. And but it's we'll sit and talk to ourselves in our mind and just obsess over things when the rest of the world has plenty of other things to do. And we're sitting there worrying and talking ourselves in and out of doing things all the time.
Yeah.
Because of that, that peer pressure, but I think in in in enabling, especially when it comes from your family of origin, right? The guilt that you can get when you just sit there and stand up and go, No, you know what, I'm not going to do this anymore. That's just as powerful and difficult to deal with as breaking the cycle.
(10:45):
Yeah. And sometimes you have to you create distance and say, for a time, I had to distance myself and say, No, I can't spend time with you right now. Because it was just too it was too painful.
Yeah. And I know that you did that with several very close family members that you got to make that difficult decision. The intent is not there to never talk to them again. But during a season, yeah, you may have to pull away from people.
(11:13):
And and that's actually very healthy. It's not as if you're building a wall and saying, you know, I'm done with you. It's for the time being, in order for me to get healthy. I need to remove myself from a situation that is very clearly not healthy.
But it's just think of diet. If you're trying to get more healthy, are you going to hang out with a bunch of people that just eat garbage all the time? Or are you just going to go, hey, for now, I got to hang out with people that go to the gym, take care of themselves, so on and so forth. Because I know if I hang out with you, you're going to be eating a big old fat piece of chocolate cake. And I just can't deal with that right now. I'm trying my best. So the same type of situation. This is a spiritual health and a mental health issue. That
(12:02):
you have to okay for a season, you know, I got to go on a spiritual diet here. Because this is not healthy. I'm trying to break out of the cycle. And I need to cast these these people and these habits as far away from me until I can build up the discipline to slowly reintroduce that into my life.
(12:22):
Yeah, I think it's also a good practice to hang out with people who are going to call you to account of that people who don't enable people who are maybe participating in a relationship, whether it be parent, child, spouse, co worker, where you can see they're clearly not an enabler and like leaning from that.
(12:46):
And then you and then the flip side of that is asking yourself, what, what am I gaining by rescuing? Like doing that self evaluation and doing that with Jesus because we don't self evaluate very well without the Word, without God.
God has a tender way of lifting up the scriptures to you and showing a mirror of who you are. And sometimes it's very like, oof, that's, that is what I'm doing, Lord. I'm sorry. How do I not do it? And what is the root cause? And that's always what I'd like to get to when I, when I try to break a pattern is what is the root lie that I believe that makes me do this pattern?
(13:30):
What have I invited into my life to make me believe that this pattern is beneficial?
And one of those things that I'll notice is idolatry is one of those sources for enabling. If that person has become an idol in your life to the point where you're lifting them up on a pedestal, you'll come in to rescue that idol over and over and over again.
(14:00):
Because it's hard to see an idol fall.
Yes. And I think you can be your own idol too.
Of course. Or that just, just, or your own identity is so tied up in it that you go, I don't know how else to be.
Yeah. And that's idolatry. You've, I, you've idolized yourself into this identity that really isn't yours to claim. It's, it's unhealthy. It's not what God gives you an identity in.
(14:24):
And I had at one point struggled like most parents do with their teenager. You know, this was obviously years and years ago.
But and I sought counsel from someone totally outside of the realm of my sphere of influence because I wanted the most objective viewpoint I could get.
(14:46):
And I went to a church council session and spent some time discussing what my needs were, what my disappointments were, what was happening in my dynamic with my, my son.
And man, this guy was so kind, but so brutally honest. And he's like, well, that's because your son's an idol.
(15:11):
And initially I kind of recoiled back from it. I didn't say, no, that's not true. I wasn't, but I recoiled at the thought of that.
And I listened and he counseled some more. And when I got home, I brought that to the throne because just because somebody says it doesn't make it true.
Always pass it through the filter.
(15:32):
Yes. And I prayed very hard like, Lord, please show me if this is true, I forgive me. I don't ever want to do that and show me how to not do it.
And I prayed and I was it was confirmed. Yeah, you're you're using your your son as your identity, being a mother and being a good mother.
(15:54):
And I air quote that because that's subjective, especially in my family.
And it took some time to really go, well, now what, Lord, what do I do different?
I don't even think that I'm doing this. How am I idolizing?
And it took some time to to work through scripture and to better understand idolatry doesn't always look the way we think it looks.
(16:20):
And and for those that are like listening that may not even understand that word, it's when you put anything in the place of God that you you pay more attention to.
You you don't think you're worshiping, but I got to tell you, we're we're made to worship.
God has made us worshippers and we're either going to worship him or something else.
And I think there was a pastor, I don't remember his name, that would say this often.
(16:45):
We are idol making factories. Our heart is making factories.
We're always looking to worship something.
And maybe it was the worship of my vision for what motherhood looked like, my vision of what my son's life could look like if I had it my way.
And all of those things were wrong.
(17:07):
All of those things were a distraction to my relationship with the living God.
And I see you see a lot of people nowadays where single moms are being celebrated like, oh, you don't need a man in the household.
You can still be a great parent and do this.
But you're a product of a different generation.
(17:28):
Was there ever any mentality like that going, hey, I'm a single mom.
I want to prove I can do this.
No, I knew that I was taking on a role that was much harder than I could handle because I had to play both nurture
and disciplinarian, which is a very difficult balance.
It's and I came from a family that were were nurturing.
(17:54):
So that was a really hard skill to learn.
And I'm sure if you ask my son, I don't know that I did a great job until I became a Christian and until I healed.
I'm sure he would be honest enough to say, yeah, you didn't really you didn't nurture either.
But from my my economy, meaning like from what I came from,
I knew even as a young teenage parent that I wanted to be different and I was determined to to be different.
(18:22):
But I never thought being a single mom was something to be celebrated.
I just knew it was hard.
And at the time, I chose to not be with his dad.
It was the healthiest choice for both me and my son. And to this day, I I don't look back and go that was a mistake.
This man was a very unhealthy man still is.
(18:45):
And I couldn't even be in his presence.
He was just yeah.
And when we say unhealthy, this was a situation where he probably was looking for an enabler.
Oh, yeah. He was right.
Like I know enough about him.
Yeah, I know enough about him to do.
Yes, know that he was an addict.
So again, you've seen these attributes over and over and over again in life.
(19:09):
So was there any point in time like when the dopamine kicks in in your brain and you're running around with this guy that you think is really, really good looking and so on and so forth at any point in time?
Do you think you enabled and then smartened up?
Do you think you never enabled like what do you think in that relationship?
Well, in that relationship, I was a kid and I also did things that he was doing.
(19:34):
So I don't know that I would call it enabling.
I would call it participating.
OK, so I partied and I did things, you know, obviously when my kid was asleep and I wasn't having to to watch him.
But so I don't know that I would call it enabling.
I would call it participating.
I would call it self-destruction choosing someone like him was because I was a very wounded young lady and he fed into my idea of what I deserved.
(20:05):
Now, I didn't know that.
But looking back in hindsight as a healed woman of God, you know, I chose I made a very poor choice in a man because of how I thought of myself.
I don't think I ever enabled him.
I it always really irked me and I always felt like I couldn't respect a man who always played victim and he was always claiming like the world was against him.
(20:32):
It's me against the world.
And he always had a poor me.
And every time I hear it, it made me cringe.
And that eventually when you lose respect for someone, it's just really hard to get that back.
Sure. And to this day, he still plays victim.
So it wasn't as if he he was ever going to change.
(20:53):
And eventually I saw that and I was like, I can't I can't raise my kid with a guy that plays victim.
That's going to pass down.
That's a that's a gross trait that I don't want my son to witness.
Yeah, you know, and after he left, he still saw his his kid occasionally and my son still saw the victim mentality.
(21:16):
And I think to this day now as a grown man of his own, he knows that that was the right choice.
Sure. Because he doesn't want to be anything like him either.
Yeah. And it's it's crazy how it's a difficult decision.
When you think about it logically, it shouldn't be a difficult decision.
You know, if somebody sits something on the table and says, hey, this is a bottle of poison.
(21:39):
If you take it slowly, you'll die.
Nobody's going to sit there and drink that.
You're going to go, whatever.
But so many times in our lives, you know, that that poison will sit and take a sip out of it.
And we don't realize we're doing it.
And I guess I guess that's how sin works.
Right. You take one tiny little taste of that and you go, hey, look, I'm still right here next to God.
(22:01):
Yeah, I tried that and that was awesome.
But I'm still here. I still believe in God.
I still love God. So on and so forth.
But guess what? Taking that little drink gets more and more and more easy.
And all of a sudden you turn around and you're so far away from where you wanted to be.
Yeah, it's seducing. It is.
And what's interesting, too, is you're talking about family members
(22:23):
enabling or being enablers and victims and this, that and the other.
And I have some family members that in one sense are victims.
They couldn't what happened to them.
They couldn't prevent it was at no fault of theirs.
But they're not playing the role of victim, but they also can't escape it.
(22:45):
And that's that is so sad to sit and watch something was done to one family member in particular
that they did nothing wrong, but they became so hurt by what what happened
and that hurt was never healed.
So that lack of healing turned into very slow bitterness,
(23:11):
which over time when you don't deal with it turns to anger and snow that snowball effect happens.
And what's what's so interesting is that the total flip side of the coin to enabling
are these people that are victims that truly were hurt and so on and so forth.
But they never dealt with the hurt and they never dealt with this and they still go through life
(23:35):
like a wrecking ball the same way that an enabler and someone is being enabled is.
They're not an enabler.
They're not or being enabled, but they're also not healed.
Yeah, because self self self-awareness is really denial is
(23:55):
and I use the word seducing because it really does lull you in a sense of like I'm safe
because I deny that I'm hurt.
It's easy.
Yeah, because it's not having to face your vulnerabilities, right?
I'm fine.
I mean, how long did I say that my whole life?
I'm fine.
I'm okay.
(24:16):
I was in denial.
It's not it's not me.
It's you.
Yeah.
Are you giggling?
Yes.
Yeah, you hear that.
But what's what's tough about this situation that I see in my family is hurt people hurt people.
And so this person isn't running around playing victim, but they are hurt.
(24:39):
So they are hurting people and creating other victims.
And sadly, one of the people that got hurt was another family member.
And so now we've got this whole dynamic of one side of the family not talking to the other truly just because of of hurts that happened in the past
(25:01):
and the saddest part for me is both sides claim to be Christian.
Neither side is interested in asking for forgiveness and neither side is willing to forgive.
And I sit back and I look at them and I do see the fruit of the Spirit in their lives.
But it does seem to tremendously be hindered by the fact that they're not willing to face this and just go.
(25:26):
We were both wrong on some things.
We're both right on some things.
I'm sorry.
You're sorry.
We should probably go to God and get help on this.
Go to other Christian friends and get help on this.
But but that is the harder road to walk.
But it's interesting to see that dynamic because now in my family, those of us that are witnessing this kind of third hand.
(25:51):
We have to sit and we can't tell one side that we're talking to the other.
Yeah, because it just causes just tremendous arguments when in reality we love them both.
Yeah, we really, really do.
And it's so difficult as Christians to sit and see this and having other Christians act this way.
(26:12):
But it is because the pain to just turn and face it and go, I am hurt.
And that pain is blinding me.
I'm not acting in wisdom.
I'm not acting in righteousness.
Lord, please forgive me first and foremost and then go and ask for forgiveness.
(26:34):
It's so difficult.
So difficult to watch.
And it makes those of us that are there sitting back.
Yeah, we're caught in the middle.
It makes it so awkward for us at times because we have to sit.
And what's amazing is when you become hurt by something, you become a character sniper.
You'll sit there. Yes, that is true.
(26:55):
You sit there and you'll get that other person in your scope and you just snipe at their character to try and knock them down because you're hurting.
Yeah, that's one of the red flags that I'll see is people that are so bitter.
And it's something I mean, I grew up watching this.
This is what's so difficult for me is this is what was modeled for me.
(27:17):
So I do struggle with this and I'll see myself becoming a character sniper where I'm just talking bad about somebody for no reason.
I go, holy cow.
What am I doing?
Why am I doing it?
There's some level of hurt in my life.
There's some level of insecurity in my life because I'm acting like a sniper right now and I need to knock it off.
(27:38):
Amen. Amen.
That you have the wait a minute.
This looks very indicative of a pattern I've witnessed and I don't want to play.
I'm not participating in this.
Help me Lord because I'm doing it and I don't even want to do it.
How did I even get here?
I'll get in the middle of a conversation.
I'm just being really bitter and really upset about a person.
(27:59):
I turn around and go, how the heck did I get here?
20 minutes ago, I was sitting here, you know, trying to problem solve.
So, you know, my mind was somewhere totally different than where it is now.
And somehow I have this thought process that was so twisted that now I'm sitting here talking bad about a person and probably 98% of it has truly nothing to do with that person.
(28:23):
But I'm sitting here, you know, again, acting like a character sniper.
I appreciate your honesty.
It's difficult.
It's difficult.
You know, there are times where I wish I had self-awareness earlier.
You know, it's better to have it at some point.
And never at all because we see that on both sides of the fence in our family.
It's just totally oblivious to how they behave.
(28:46):
And what's that?
That's so true.
You know, the family members that I have one side in the one side of the fence, they're aware, but they're not interested in fixing it.
Where the other side of the fence isn't aware, let alone willing to do anything about it.
So it's just this standoffish situation that it's going to require a but God moment in order for it to go away.
(29:17):
But it's so sad to sit back and watch it.
Yeah.
It just goes to show you that claiming to be a Christian and even going to church and even being a Christian, it's not enough.
It's that constant going back to God as that measuring stick, as that he's the straight line.
(29:41):
Let me put myself up against him.
Correct.
And see where the bends are.
Right.
And work that out.
Work those kinks out.
I think people can theologically claim Christ, but not walk out the journey of humanity.
That is your sinful nature with Christ.
(30:03):
Yes.
It's one thing to believe what the Bible says.
It's another thing to walk in what the Bible says.
And I do believe that's why so many people are put off by Christianity.
And not just, I mean, Christians aren't the only ones that do this.
Let's be real.
We're all a bunch of hypocrites at times.
(30:25):
But it's heartbreaking when you see people who truly do understand the Bible and truly believe Jesus is the risen Son of God and there's no other way to heaven but through him.
And yet cannot walk out the journey of how hard it is to actually wrestle with God with your own sin nature.
(30:49):
Because that's what it boils down to.
We're sinners and we want what we want.
And it's in that way since the garden.
And it's hard to die to self.
And that's what it boils down to.
I'm dying to my own desire to be proud, to be right.
A lot of times it's about I want to be right.
I don't care who gets hurt.
(31:10):
I'm right.
You're wrong.
And we have a hard time dying to that part of our flesh that wants that so desperately.
We want to be right instead of being like, wow, I'm being a jerk right now.
I'm really being a jerk right now.
I'm sorry, God.
And the beauty is God goes, yeah, you are being a jerk and I love you anyway.
(31:31):
Let's work on this together.
Yeah, one of the scariest and most intimidating Bible verses when read from a particular angle is Psalm 139, 23 and 24 where it says,
Search me, O God, and know my heart.
Try me and know my anxieties and see if there's any wicked way in me and lead me in the way everlasting.
(31:57):
To sit there and have that level of openness with God, where you go, God, you see all of my blind spots, you see all of my weaknesses.
Please make me aware of them and please help me fix those.
Talk about vulnerability.
You said it early.
You use the word vulnerability.
That level of vulnerability, that's what God loves.
(32:19):
That's the area of your life that he rules over that.
He truly he understands that.
And so many times he he's the only fix.
And yet we run so far away from him on those because it does take that level of vulnerable.
A, it takes vulnerability.
B, it's going to take work.
C, it's the other way is so much easier, so much more enticing.
(32:43):
But yet God sitting there going, but will you just give this to me?
Will you work with me on it?
And the illustration that I always love to see and I have to remind myself of is I'm sitting there with a five dollar bill in my hand and I'm handing that over to Christ and he's got a ten dollar bill behind him.
(33:08):
But I'm so nervous to give him the five dollar bill because it's five dollars and I like my five dollars where he's sitting there going, but if you just give this to me, I'm going to give you ten dollars.
And it's not a prosperity.
God, this is truly has nothing to do with money.
I'm using money as the illustration.
But every time I give something over to Christ, he always gives me back something completely different.
(33:30):
That's better.
Oh, for sure.
It's a multiplication of like his blessing because you get to grow.
But those but for five dollars, I mean, I can go to Dollar Tree and I can get four items with that five dollars.
And that's what I focus on is those four items from Dollar Tree that I can pick up when in reality, God sitting there going, do you have any idea?
(33:52):
Can you just trust me and trust?
That's it.
That's why vulnerability is hard because.
We don't trust as much as we say we trust God.
And that's an easy thing.
I trust God.
I trust.
But in order to actually trust, you have to be willing to be vulnerable and willing to not understand.
(34:15):
Yes, many times.
And that's so hard for me because I'm a fixer.
Right.
I work on websites for a living.
There's always a reason if something is broken on a website, there's always a reason and you can always piece together the broken aspect.
And you go, OK, and now I'm going to fix this with Christ.
(34:37):
He's going to go, you know what?
You don't have the skill set to find this brokenness.
You need to rely on me to take you to it in a complete darkness.
You're going to follow me and my voice and I'm going to lead you to the brokenness and you're going to sit there with that brokenness.
You're going to talk to me about it and I'm going to help you fix that.
(34:59):
But if you try any other way, you're going to make things worse because this is how I get the glory is I take you to something that's been there forever.
And you just take it one little tiny piece at a time.
Every single instruction that I give you, you need to do it.
And all of a sudden, you're going to turn around and that item is going to be gone.
That website again, using that analogy, all of a sudden, the website is going to be fixed.
(35:25):
But it's so intimidating because you look through the Bible, there are so many times where God's solution to problems always changes.
Even though the problem was the same.
Look at the disciples in on the Sea of Galilee.
Sometimes he's there with them.
(35:46):
Sometimes he's not the same problem, different solutions.
And so just because God teaches you how to fix something one way doesn't mean it's going to be the exact same instance every single time to fix that item.
So you really got to rely on him and trust him.
(36:08):
That's so hard, especially when it's of us that like control and or those that.
Think very highly of themselves.
I can fix this.
Right.
I can do this.
Right.
Even even AA brings you to that level of I can't fix this.
(36:32):
Right.
It's not again, we're all made to worship.
There's a reasons why you'll notice these themes.
It's because we are wired a certain way.
And for sure, admitting that we're powerless in some of these things.
So kind of circling all the way back around to where this this episode began were powerless as enablers to break that cycle.
(36:57):
Right.
It has to be broken by the person who's self-destructive.
And Christ can help you.
Not enable he can sit there and go, you know what?
Depend on me.
Don't worry about what you you know, how you're perceived.
Don't worry.
I love you no matter what happens.
And that even that alone can be difficult, especially when you are results oriented and so on and so forth.
(37:23):
Right.
I think a boy you hit the head on and maybe you didn't say identity.
But that's what I heard is don't care what other people think because I've already given you an identity.
And I think that's a people pleaser thing that people don't recognize when they people pleases.
(37:44):
I want you to like me to accept me to want me to need me because I need you to validate who I am as a human being.
When the God of the universe already tells you who you are when you become his child, you're beloved.
You're forgiven.
(38:05):
You're you have value and worth because I shed my own blood for you.
And so when we stop focusing on getting that approval from someone else and worry more about God, do you approve of this?
Does this please you, God?
That's I think the key.
(38:26):
And I'm not saying I have it right all the time because there are times where I'm still trying to aim to please my parents or aim to fix something.
And maybe I don't say I want to thank you.
But deep down inside, I want to thank you.
Deep down inside, I want you did good.
I appreciate you.
But I but I wind up not getting that.
(38:47):
And then I'm upset when God has already said, daughter, I approve of what you're doing.
You're honoring your parents, whether they thank you or not.
Thank you. You're honoring your husband, whether you get thanked or not.
Thank you. You're honoring your your work commitments.
Like playing for an audience of one is something I have to remind myself over and over because I fall right out of that real quick.
(39:12):
There are times where I actually am looking for someone to say thank you.
But and somebody might say to me, but that's a human thing.
Of course you want to be thanked.
That's not wrong.
Words of affirmation aren't a wrong thing.
No, they're not.
They're not. But when that becomes the sole way I feel loved, then that's a problem for me.
Because I'm not always going to get words of affirmation.
(39:35):
Although I all I really have to do is look in the Bible and there's my words of affirmation.
I mean, there are plenty of scriptures to support that I am loved, that I am seen, that I will never be forsaken, that I will never be alone.
And I don't always turn to those.
And that's something that God's working on with me because I don't want to seek approval from other people.
(39:58):
I want to seek it from him.
And that's where being an enabler truly stems from is trying to serve.
You forget who your audience is.
Yes.
You forget that you're here serving Christ.
And it's very easy because, you know, like we're in a season of life right now where your parents are our ministry.
(40:20):
Our job is to love and serve your parents.
Yeah.
But I can't get my definition of success based on their happiness.
I have to turn to Christ at the end of the day and go, hey, we did a ton of work for mom and dad today.
Maybe we're getting their home ready to sell.
Maybe we're going over to the assisted living facility and doing something.
(40:41):
Who knows whatever we're doing and whether or not I did a good job that day has nothing truly to do with your parents and their opinion of me.
It has to do.
Did I?
Did I love them well today?
And did I serve them well today?
And any gratitude that's given or not given or this that that's it's nice when it comes if it doesn't come, it doesn't matter because again, they're not they're not the thermostat in my life.
(41:08):
Christ is.
So I have to turn and get that affirmation from him.
And I think that's why in the book of Revelation, one of my favorite verses talks about, you know, we get to heaven, we're going to get a little tile and it's going to have a name written on it.
And only God and only me are going to be able to read the name that's on that tile and understand it.
(41:29):
And it's because he truly is the only one that ever understands my identity.
No one else ever will.
He'll he understands it.
He's giving me that tile when I get there to go, Michael, this was always you.
And I'm going to look at it and I'm going to go, wow, yeah, that is you nailed it on the head.
And everyone else that looks at this on earth, they were judging, they were this, that and the other.
(41:54):
But you were the one that always knew.
And this makes total sense to me.
So I think even scripturally, all of that lines up.
And it's such a beautiful picture of Christ.
It is because he's the only one that knows you that deeply that so intimately.
That was what I asked you.
You're like, what's your life first?
And when you came back with that, I was like, holy moly.
(42:15):
And it was a white stone.
White stone, white tile.
And I was like, I've never heard anyone say that was their life first.
And I went back and looked at it and I was just like, holy moly.
It's very cool verse.
When you sit and meditate on that verse, I love it.
I totally love it.
But I think again, it goes all it goes back to truly your identity.
(42:39):
And when you talk about enabling and so on and so forth.
Victimhood can become your identity.
Enabling can become your identity.
Rescuer, which is enabler.
Yep.
All of these things can become your identity when in reality Christ is the only Savior.
We're here to be his hands and feet and he can work using us.
(43:01):
He wants to because in that working, he can turn us into a better picture of his son, of Christ.
And that's what he wants.
He doesn't need it, but he does want that.
And so, he'll put us in these situations.
And I'm grateful that you had this self-awareness and you were able to break out of the enablers
(43:24):
and the enabling that goes on in your family.
And again, I love this self-awareness that you have.
And I love the fact that both of us can speak into one another's lives.
Hey, Deb, do you realize this is going on?
And I love that you're open with Christ.
Thank you.
And I think at this point where, you know, when he does identify something in you like, you know,
(43:49):
back when you said your son was an idol, that's got to be a tough thing to hear.
You know, what's interesting is even I remember back the special episode we did to kick off this season
when we invited Nate and Alyssa here, they said something similar.
And I never had kids.
I never went down that path in life.
But I think looking at the youth of this country, you do see that happening.
(44:13):
And it's sad to watch it.
How many parents are not willing to discipline their kids because their kids run the show.
And they want to be liked by their kid.
Instead of being a parent, instead of being disciplinary, breaking a cycle that they see being created.
It's easier to keep that kid happy.
Put an iPad in that kid's hands and he'll be quiet.
(44:36):
You know, whatever it may be.
And look at the downfall to that.
Look at that.
What's raising your child?
Where are they getting their values from?
What habits are you creating in them now without even realizing you're creating those habits?
Sure.
And I sacrificed you so that you would like me and we could be friends.
(44:59):
And I always told my kid really early on, I'm not your friend, I'm your mom.
One day maybe we can be friends.
And to this day, like, you know, he's 30 now.
And I could say in all actuality that we are friends.
But that did not just come.
That would be because I chose to be a parent first and a friend later in life.
(45:22):
Look at the Army.
Look at the hardest part of a world economy like we're in is war.
You go into the military, those guys aren't looking to be your friend.
Right out of the gate, they're going to beat you up, man.
But down the road, after that phase passes and you realize you're never going to get there,
(45:48):
you start to see a different side.
And all of a sudden they'll start cracking some jokes.
You know, they got to bust you down.
And when you're down low, then they help pick you back up.
And I think that's you have to do that because nobody wants...
I think there's a lot of people in this country that truly don't like their kids.
Oh, they don't like their own kids because they've enabled them.
(46:13):
But they don't like what they're enabling, but they don't know how to get out of that because they're the enabler.
And they're sitting there going, I don't like this cycle.
I don't like what's going on.
They don't even look at it as a cycle.
I just don't like what's happening.
How do I stop this?
Well, you're going to have to work really hard and your kids going to hate you for a while.
What do you mean?
No, I'd rather just give them what they want.
(46:34):
Yeah.
Why would I do that?
But yet they're sitting there going, but I truly don't like my kid.
And that's such a terrible thing to say.
People have a hard time doing the hard thing.
Of course.
And but I mean consistently across the board.
And you're like, but you never get anything good the easy way.
Nothing.
I mean, look at it.
Everything that you really want that has value is hard.
(46:58):
You have to work for it.
It doesn't just come because you want it to be that way.
You have to you have to be willing to to discipline your kid when sacrifice now for the long-term goals.
Are you willing to make the sacrifice now?
Absolutely.
You know, if your kids throw in a tantrum and you're embarrassed,
(47:19):
you have two choices.
You can give that kid exactly what they're whining about and the tantrum ends and you're no longer embarrassed.
Or you can take that kid outside and decide how you're going to handle it.
And if that makes you look like a bad parent in someone else's eyes,
oh, well, I'm not going to raise a bratty human being.
(47:41):
And that's the thing that people are so uncomfortable with the impression they leave on other people.
Like, what are people again?
Wow, it's like it's like a life commandment that I grew up with.
What are other people going to think if I don't show up this way?
And I don't I'm not going to dictate how I raise the next generation based on you thinking,
(48:06):
I'm you know, wow, you're so tough on him.
I can't tell you how many times I heard my parents say that.
You're just so tough on him.
You're so hard. Why are you so hard?
And I'm thinking because you raised me, but like that's a whole nother story for a whole nother podcast.
But all those hard things made for a respectable man that stands before me now.
(48:31):
He's he's a good citizen.
He's he's respectful.
He's a hard worker.
I'm very proud of him.
And if I would have just given him what he wanted, he might have very well turned out to be a victim and lazy.
And that's not that's not good for anybody.
It's not good for him. It's not good for society.
It's not good for his future wife is well now his wife.
(48:53):
Like if I would have raised a brat, no.
Yeah, walking through life with get out of jail free cards in your back pocket.
Yeah, it's a lot different than walking around without him.
You behave differently.
Maybe not at first.
But once you have to pay that price, you learn your lesson.
I got a thank you from my kid.
Yeah. And sincere.
(49:14):
Thank you.
Not a pacifist.
Anyhow, it was a very sincere.
Hey, I didn't appreciate it at the time.
Yeah.
But now looking back, I look at all the blessings that are in my life because of some of the things that you did.
Yeah.
And I mean, that was just a couple of days ago and that I can't tell you like how incredible that felt like.
(49:35):
Because it was such a hard season for both of us.
And I made some hard choices that he didn't like and we did separate for a bit.
Like he moved across the United States and I was just like, wow, you really want to get away from me.
He's like, yeah, I do.
But now I can look back and recognize like I always knew I was doing the right thing.
(49:59):
But there's something very wonderful when your kid says, thank you.
Oh, sure.
It was intimidating to look at when it was happening.
Sure.
My goodness.
But now, you know, you knew to your core that that was the right decision and you followed through with it.
And yeah, you reap what you sow.
This is absolutely enabling is, you know, such a vivid picture of you reap what you sow.
(50:22):
Yes, it is.
So yeah, it's an interesting topic.
I think it's more prevalent in our society than we know it is.
So we just wanted to talk about this on a podcast.
You and I had some pretty interesting conversation this morning.
So we were like, hey, let's let's run in there and record this.
Let's pause the conversation and go hit record and pick this back up.
(50:43):
So I'm glad we did.
Yeah, truly an interesting topic and certainly not something that either one of us is fully immune to.
We, you know, we see the cycles in our in our family members around us.
And I'm sure, you know, I'm always trying to fight the cycle because I'm very prone.
To follow it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I can I can attest to that.
(51:04):
I see that in you and thank you.
Yeah, that's that's one of your many great attributes.
Thank you.
Anyways, maybe we'll come back to this topic another time.
There's so much to talk about on on enabling and enablers.
Yeah, there is.
There's definitely another conversation in here about, you know, pleasing God and pleasing man.
And yeah, 100%.
(51:25):
But for now, I think this is where we'll leave this topic.
Yeah.
Thank you guys for listening in.
We appreciate it as always.
Yes, we do.
We love you guys.
We will catch you in the next episode.
Bye guys.
(52:06):
Bye.
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