Stories Worth Telling: LGBTQ+ Prodigal

In this compelling episode of "Detours," we delve into the heartfelt journey of two devout Christian parents grappling with their son's embrace of an LGBTQ+ lifestyle. With unwavering love and faith, they navigate the complex emotions and challenges that arise, constantly pointing him back to God. Through candid conversation and spiritual guidance, this episode explores the delicate balance of maintaining religious convictions while offering unconditional love. Join us as we uncover the trials, triumphs, and profound insights of a family striving to stand strong in faith while loving their son and letting God take control.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hey guys, welcome to season number five.

(00:16):
I am here with my beautiful wife Deb.
Hi guys.
And we appreciate everyone tuning in for season number five.
We thought we would kick things off with a couple of guests.
Deb, why don't you introduce them?
Yes, it's our good friends from our church, Leisha and Nate.
And they're here to share a story of hope.
Yeah, absolutely a story of hope.

(00:38):
I always kind of think of it being ironic.
We have such a solid church, but there are so many prodigal stories in our church.
It's absolutely incredible.
And you guys are not immune.
Deb and I with Deb's son, we're not immune.
Neither are you guys.
But you guys have a unique story.
How do we want to kick this off?

(00:59):
You have a son, Nate Jr., or Nathan, as we're going to refer to him throughout.
So we're half confused some of the times.
We'll clear it up.
So Nate, this is you, the father.
And Nate Jr., Nathan is your son.
That's correct.
So we may have to reinforce that throughout the episode just to be clear.

(01:20):
But yeah, you guys have a bit of an interesting story.
And part of the reason we wanted to bring you into the podcast is this really touches
on a subject that, as Christians, we don't talk a lot about.
And that is your son walks in the LGBTQ lifestyle.
And just you guys are in the midst of it.
You're in the throes of the story.
And so we would love to just hear the story of your family, how you guys are handling

(01:47):
things.
Just get your perspective on it all.
So how do we kick off the story?
Which one of you guys want to kind of start this off?
Yeah, I'll start us out.
Yeah, sure.
I think starting the story in Alicia and I met on active duty in the military.
We got married a year after we met.

(02:08):
And within the next year, we were on our way with our first child.
And Nathan was born two months after September 11.
Wow.
So he was a 2001 baby.
And he ironic story is that he was supposed to be named Noah.
But I was on active duty.
Alicia was pregnant and I came home one day in the midst of her pregnancy and emotions.

(02:33):
She looked at me and she said, you're going to deploy and you're going to die.
I want to name our son after you.
I had mixed emotions about the moment.
No kidding.
Yeah.
No kidding.
But I embraced it and you know, it was his name and that was the right name.
Was born in 2001.
So he's almost 23 the next month.

(02:54):
And you know, he's had a I consider a pretty average American life, you know, both parents
there.
He had a sister and a brother born after him.
And then we adopted three more children.
And Nathan was just an amazing young man.
He really had a heart for the Lord.
He actually went to Israel on missions and served the Jewish, the people of Israel, the

(03:18):
Jewish people on mission there and then went to Cuba on missions.
And you know, just a heart for the Lord growing up and in the church all the time with us
as a family.
And in his teenage years, things kind of he started, I guess, questioning things and questioning
things about himself and entered into this lifestyle when he was about 17.

(03:41):
It kind of came to our attention.
So it was quite an awakening for us as parents to how this can infiltrate your family.
So when you guys met, were you guys both saved?
No.
No, I actually grew up Catholic.
So I knew God, but not the right guy.

(04:04):
So yeah, shortly.
Maybe I'd say six months to a year after we met, I started checking out different churches,
just kind of trying to figure out there's got to be something different.
I can remember a specific night I was in boot camp and it was very lonely.
I wanted the heck out of there.

(04:26):
And I would just scream it out to God, if you are real, like, come, like, tell me, show
me.
So in that moment, I just felt his presence.
And so it was just a journey from there, but ended up actually being saved probably about
a year after that, I'd say, right?

(04:46):
When we got baptized together.
And Nate, how about you?
Yeah, well, I didn't grow up in the church, actually pretty broken childhood raised with
by a single mom.
And both of my parents actually were married multiple times.
So the institution of marriage was a broken thing and that I didn't want anything a part

(05:07):
of and I definitely didn't want to have any children ever.
God had different plans now that I have six kids and a wife of 23 years.
That's like, you will see about that.
Right.
So but the Lord got ahold of me.
Alicia was a big part of me finding the Lord, quite frankly, because I was definitely a
stray before I met her.

(05:28):
So that basically means, you know, Nathan grew up in a Christian home from day one.
He was pretty much in a Christian home.
Yes.
Yes.
Interesting.
When do you think you said about 17?
Was there anything that kind of you feel may have been the set off for him to go?

(05:50):
Okay, I think I'm going to explore this.
I think that I'm curious.
And I don't know, I'm going to walk in this.
Was there any one particular time in that you can kind of pinpoint?
Yeah, like when he got into his teen years, it seemed like he started withdrawing some.

(06:12):
So I felt like there was something going on.
And as we talked about it after that, he did tell me that he felt different.
He couldn't really quite understand what these feelings were, but that there was just something
different.
He didn't really fit in.
But nothing that I thought would be this.
But then he started working outside the home.

(06:33):
I think he was 16.
And he was working at an ice cream shop and there was a girl there who was a lesbian.
And I do believe that she spoke into his life.
And right around that time is when, you know, we actually found several conversations on

(06:53):
his computer and then, you know, came to him with the question about what was going on.
And he was open and honest and said that, yeah, he was exploring his sexuality and that
he thought he was bi is what he told me at the time, because he did grow up with girlfriends.

(07:16):
He went to prom.
So there really wasn't any indication, you know, that this is that he was going to choose
this lifestyle.
So do you think, you know, when you hit adolescence, when you hit when you hit those teenage years,
it's easy to point and just say, you're so confused because there's so many changes happening.

(07:40):
This, that and the other.
Yeah.
So you feel like that was the end where we're going to work at this ice cream shop.
That person, you know, saw that in road and just said, hey, I'm going to, you know, take
this and run with it.
Do you think there was any malicious intent there by that person?

(08:01):
Did you even know that person or know who they were?
I do.
We met her.
She actually had came over several times to the house.
She was a nice girl.
I don't know if it was so much malicious or evil.
I think, you know, they became friends.
He may have opened up about some of the struggles he was having.

(08:24):
And, you know, she might have just spoken to his life and say that it's okay.
You know, you're feeling that way.
Go that way.
You know, I don't know.
I'm not sure.
He never really told us like she was maliciously doing it or anything.
But I just think that, you know, she was walking that lifestyle and she thought that she had
found freedom in that.

(08:45):
So she wanted him to, I guess.
And also he isn't the, I don't know, I guess you would say the typical like manly man.
So she may have seen, you know, just the difference in the way he looked and maybe acted.
I don't know.
Yeah.

(09:05):
I think when you're struggling yourself as a teenager, she was a teenager too.
Older teenager.
Yeah.
She probably, maybe she started to confide and then that's how it kind of started maybe.
Yeah, possibly.
We always seek to find people that are going to understand what we think is our story.

(09:25):
And sometimes when you're a teenager, I know for myself, I sought out people to tell me
what I wanted to hear and kind of gave me permission to do the things I knew that weren't
right and had a very turbulent teenage years for that, you know, and keeping company with

(09:46):
the wrong crowd.
That's right.
Yeah.
It happens.
Birds of a feather and a suddenly flock together.
Yeah.
And he's already feeling that way.
And then here she is living in that lifestyle.
So I think it was just an open door for him to confide in her and yeah.
And the advice she gave him obviously was not godly.
Right.

(10:06):
And I think there was additional influence as he was a dual enrolled student and he was
at Eastern Florida as a high school student and around older people.
And there was, I think, encouragement probably in that type of behavior, quite frankly.
So that probably didn't help.
But again, this is us as parents, you know, going back and trying to overanalyze and look

(10:30):
at what could have been or may have been or how it could have happened.
Right.
Yeah.
But we do that so much even as Deb's mom has been, you know, her health has been up and
down and all over the place.
As soon as you get out of the valley, you immediately look back to the valley and just
go, man, I should have done X.
Even though you were so ill equipped in the moment, you know, you're just reacting and

(10:54):
so on and so forth.
You look back hindsight always is 20, 20.
And we go, man, we wish we would have handled that differently.
You know, so many different times that that happens in our lives.
But yeah, that's tough.
So I think maybe when we were kind of talking to brief for this episode, I think you said
even even your son was in sports and all sorts of things.

(11:15):
Yeah.
I mean, I coached his baseball team for a couple of years.
He never really got into baseball.
He played soccer a little bit, never really got into soccer.
But I can tell you the kid is talented, wicked talented in music.
He could play the ukulele, the violin, the piano, the guitar.
Wow.
You know, tune all of the above by ear.

(11:36):
I mean, just unbelievable kind of talent in the area of music, which I have none of.
So he got all mine.
And he's really good at art and really good at art, painting, sculpting, drawing.
Yeah.
OK.
And neither of you are artistic.
No.
Wow.

(11:57):
You could just see the hand of God going, this is your gift.
I'm going to give you this.
Yeah.
Interesting.
OK.
So so he works at the ice cream shop.
Some things are starting to happen.
What is kind of that next step that would happen, I guess you would say?
Yeah, so I had found the conversations on the computer.
I was just sitting there and I just felt the I know it was the Holy Spirit to go look at

(12:21):
this.
And so there it was, plain as day.
So when he had came home, you know, I confronted him about it.
And then that's when he said he was by.
And then, you know, just some conversations from there between us and him as parents to
him just trying to understand why does he think like this?

(12:41):
What is going on?
And then from there, one day he just came up to us and said, I know you don't accept
this and you're not going to be OK with me living this lifestyle.
So I'm moving out.
And we were like, why?
Like where are you moving?
No, don't do this.
You know, but he met some kid online and I guess the kid told him, yeah, my dad said

(13:10):
you can come live with us.
Oh, wow.
Within probably two or three days, he was packing up and he was moving out.
And about what age was he when this happened?
He had just turned 18.
OK.
And, you know, at any point in time between 16, 18, just kind of, I guess, the earlier

(13:31):
years, being that he grew up in a Christian home, he had to have at least a head knowledge
of God.
Right.
And he said, did he ever come to you and say, Mom and Dad, why did God make me this way?
Did he ever struggle with anything like that?
Yeah, I've heard that come out of his mouth.
And I mean, the way I approach it is that, you know, God didn't make you this way.

(13:58):
It's a sin.
It's a struggle that you're going through, but this isn't who you are.
But I guess the lies spoke louder to that in his heart and in his mind.
Well, I think the culture does a really big number on people telling them that, like,
you know, it's not a matter.
Your sexuality isn't what you participate in or what you do.

(14:20):
It's who you are.
And that is a message that comes out loud and clear in the culture.
And then, you know, so therefore people are like, well, this is just who I am instead
of this is what I'm choosing, this is what I'm attracted to, this is what I'm moving
towards.
It's always about, well, if you don't accept my behavior, then you don't accept who I am

(14:43):
as a person.
And that's the that's the cultural rub that the Christian really has to kind of go, OK,
how do we address identity with people like you're so much more than your sexuality, you're
so much more than who you are attracted to.
And it's a cultural war for identity.

(15:05):
Absolutely.
You know, it's sad.
And it's sad because it's not just it.
You know, it's culture is becoming so divisive on everything.
If you're not like me, then you're the enemy.
Right.
Red versus blue.
I mean, you literally slice and dice society, right?
We're all seeing it.

(15:26):
So it's you know, it's a tough thing to watch.
And you know, one of the hardest things working, I work for the church and one of the hardest
things about watching Christians is how they disagree.
You know, we all kind of sat down and agreed when we wanted to do this, that the very first

(15:47):
thing people had to understand is this is coming from a place of compassion and love.
And we do love Nathan.
And you know, that's the number one thing is, Deb, with everything that you do with
Trees of Hope and I'm not a parent, but you guys are, it's just constantly creating that

(16:08):
safe space and being there in compassion.
So if someone is, you know, colored blue and you're colored red and you're having a conversation,
are you coming across the way you need to?
And it's any topic, not just, you know, hot, red and blue.
It's anything out there, someone that male and female and so on and so forth.

(16:31):
So you know, just I, yeah, constantly coming from compassion.
And I'm sure my goodness, what types of emotions did you guys have running through your veins
when all this was happening yet?
You have to stay in that compassion.
Was it was a panic?
Was it like, what is happening?
Or yeah, like, you know,

(16:52):
This is not happening to me.
No, you know, basically, I think a lot of the first things were denial.
This is no, not me.
It's not happening.
He's it's it's maybe he's just mistaken that he's just confused.
How can I fix this?
You know, that's kind of how I went into a mentality.

(17:13):
So many times we do that.
I build websites and things like that.
And usually the only time I hear from somebody is when something goes wrong.
So I'm usually the phone call to, hey, I need this fix.
And I can take that into relationships when that's the wrong thing.
You're not there to fix situations.
You're there to be present and listen to people.
And that's something I've recently realized with myself that, you know, with Deb's mom

(17:38):
and everything that's going on with Arlene, I cannot fix that.
But I can be present there for her.
Exactly.
It's so critical.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think what was your first initial reaction?
Was it also like, no, this is not happening.
I mean, obviously, we we process things differently as most men and women do.

(18:02):
Right.
But yeah, I think my initial reaction, you know, I kind of took a step back and I did
a lot of analysis because that's how my brain works.
Like, why, how did we get here and how are we going to move forward and what does it
look like?
And I am a fixer.
Right.
So it's like, OK, well, it's time to get in the word.

(18:22):
And, you know, we prayed and we fasted and we were in the word.
And the story kind of took a turn and he came home probably three months later.
This is after he moves out.
Right.
So what is the turn?
Like what what brings him back home?
He was I don't know if you what the story was at the house.

(18:45):
That he was either no longer welcome there or something had happened in the situation
that he needed to move out.
So we opened our doors as we always told him he's welcome to come to come home.
We want him to come home.
And he came home and said words like, I don't want to live this way.

(19:07):
I don't want to be this way.
And we loved on him and I spent many nights talking to him and getting in the word.
And we even did a little study and just to talk through what it means to to be in that
lifestyle, but also what it means to to fight against Satan and the sin that that the flesh

(19:29):
pursues.
And so it seemed like things were better.
And he was making a turn and he was home for probably four months at that point.
Maybe a little longer, four to six months.
Right.
And then left again.
Let me just ask you have six kids.

(19:52):
So how are how are the other kids?
What questions did you feel from the other kids?
Well, we sat down with the older to his his biological brother and sister because those
were younger.
And so we gave them the landscape of what is really going on.

(20:14):
And then the younger ones, we sat down and explained that he had moved out.
And yeah, we kind of went through that process with them.
And you know, it broke our heart to have that conversation with our older children, too,
because his sister and him were like best friends and she was processing this and she

(20:34):
she had some some tough times through that.
And then and then his brother kind of almost disowned him, it seemed like at some level.
And so that was hard to kind of watch to.
Yeah, I wouldn't.
Yeah, I mean, I would imagine the reactions are just kind of all over the board.
Right.

(20:55):
Like you said, everybody processes differently.
Yeah.
And so especially at that age, you don't even necessarily know how to process.
Right.
Right.
And it's like, you know, I'm sure they knew what the terms were and, you know, knew about
gay and that lifestyle somewhat.
I mean, maybe not the younger ones, but you just don't really think it's going to hit

(21:17):
your home, your house, you know, your home, your family.
So it was just a whole new thing for all of us to.
Wow.
To understand and.
Yeah.
And his oldest sister or younger sister, but our oldest daughter, they were really, really
close.
And so she had a really hard time and, you know, just went through her own struggles,

(21:41):
a lot of struggles through that.
So he moves out a second time.
How long has he gone for?
What is what what happens next?
He moves out that second time.
What what happens?
So he moves out a second time, also moves in with a kid in the fan, their family, lived

(22:02):
there for quite some time.
And then the sister of the kid and our Nathan did not get along whatsoever.
And I guess they had a pretty big fight one night and the parents said, OK, you got to
go.
So the kids said, well, I'll go with you.
So they were living on couches for a couple of weeks, just kind of bouncing here and there.

(22:24):
And then they found a pretty cheap apartment up in Titusville.
So they got that they lived together for a little over a year, I'd say.
And then the next thing we know, he's moving to Fort Lauderdale out of nowhere.
So manors.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So he, I guess, decided he wanted to be in a more in an area that accepted him more.

(22:51):
Sure.
Accepted that lifestyle more for the audience.
Wilton Manors is a very densely populated area of Fort Lauderdale that is predominantly
gay and is pretty open and liberal about gay pride.
And so it's kind of like the San Francisco on the East Coast of sorts, but much smaller

(23:16):
in size, just so people know where Wilton Manors is.
Yeah, what what called him about that?
Did he know someone down there?
He just read about this city that openly would accept him.
What was the appeal?
Where did the idea come from?
I think it was I think he had maybe just maybe heard about it in the community about this

(23:38):
place.
He just, you know, it wasn't working out with this other guy.
So hey, why not?
And then he found an ad in the newspaper of an older gentleman who was also living in
the gay lifestyle, although he was way older.
I think he was like in his 70s or whatever.
But he had a room for rent.
So he rented a room from him.

(24:00):
And he's how old at this point?
19.
Yeah, 19 or 20.
Probably 20, actually.
At that point.
OK.
And so he goes to Fort Lauderdale.
What how much is he communicating with you guys?
Is he going, hey, I'm thinking about doing this.
What are your thoughts?

(24:21):
Or is he just like, hey, I'm going whether you want me to go or not.
How is the relationship and the communication at this point between you guys?
He did ask and, you know, kind of discuss it with me.
And I told him I didn't think it was a good idea.
But yeah, I think he already had his mind set up.

(24:41):
Is he the type of kid that does value your guys' opinions?
Or is he one that is just kind of looking for validation?
Is he living as a victim?
Like what is 20 year olds don't value their parents like advice or opinion from the one
guy in the room that doesn't have kids.

(25:02):
Yeah, they don't they don't think we know anything at that age.
But you know, there's people in the audience that don't have kids, too.
So I'm trying to understand, you know, where is his head at as far as relationship with
his parents, your communication?
How much did he trust you at the moment?

(25:23):
I mean, I guess he told you.
So he had to have some level of trust.
So where was all that during this time?
Yeah, I mean, he didn't he didn't look for us to for advice.
He did want us to I'll say and not just enable him yet, but he wanted us to accept his decisions

(25:48):
and participate in it is what he wanted.
And we wanted to speak truth.
And so, you know, he didn't he didn't come to me for advice.
He shared with his mom.
Usually our communication was I would reach out to him and occasionally get all of them.
But there was no no reciprocating per se.

(26:08):
Yeah.
So I don't know if he really valued our opinions so much like you were saying at that age.
But I think he you know, he knew we love he knows we love him.
He wanted to make sure we knew where he was.
And you know, just give us a little bit of credit there, I guess.

(26:31):
So he moves in with a 70 year old ish, something like that.
That's the plan.
And so what happens at that point?
He packs up the car with whatever can fit.
Yeah, just whatever he had.
They left a bunch of stuff, I guess, at the apartment and just kind of left.

(26:52):
And he took whatever he could, packed it up in his car and headed down there.
Did he have thoughts of, you know, hey, I want to live here and start a career or I
want to just I just want to go to Fort Lauderdale because there's party in there or?
Yeah, I think he was in probably that mindset parties.
Hey, this is a very open area.

(27:13):
Let me see how I can explore this more.
He was actually doing like doing he was being a waiter at that point.
Right.
So he thought he could make more money down there because there would be better restaurants
and all that sort of stuff, too.
Yeah.
And the lifestyle of like a server, especially in Fort Lauderdale, is just it's a it's a

(27:35):
hard life.
You know, you're working all hours of the night and it's cash money and there's always
somebody in the restaurant business that's an addict.
And you're just like, yeah, it's a tough industry.
My sister's a chef.
It is the whole restaurant world is in and of itself is tough.

(27:55):
Yeah.
Late nights.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Not not certainly not favorable if you're not in the word.
Let's just put it that way to put it mildly.
Yeah.
So he's he's down there.
This is it.
What is it?

(28:15):
Does it feel like things are out of control at any point?
Or are you so grounded in the word?
You're like, God's got this.
Do you fluctuate moment to moment?
What is happening spiritually with you guys?
We've gone from 16 to let's say 20.
That's a long four period, four year period.

(28:36):
There's got to be all sorts of spiritual battle happening within you guys.
So what's happening on that front?
Well, for me, at first, you know, I think, like I said, I went into denial.
That was my first thing, and really, it's, you know, it really is kind of walking through
grief with this because I did feel like my son's like almost like a death, you know,

(29:02):
but more like a death towards everything that my ideas that I had for him, you know, all
the things that I thought he would be.
You know, he had a scholarship.
Yeah.
Going going to full ride scholarship to Judson University in Chicago for architecture.
Got right in architecture.
Holy smokes.

(29:22):
That's no joke.
Yeah.
He had an associate's degree when he graduated high school.
Straight A's like everything, you know, he was just on a really, you know, I thought
good path.
So yeah, it was a lot of dying of just my dreams for him.
So I walked through a lot of, you know, after denial, just maybe some anger.

(29:47):
Sure.
Yeah, that's one of the stages is anger.
You know, like I went through being angry at God, too, to be honest, you know, like
why my child?
Why does this sin have to hit him?
You know, I mean, I was trying to look at it from his perspective, too.
And he said, you know, several times to me, Mom, I didn't ask for this.

(30:08):
I don't want this.
This is, you know, this is how God made me.
And, you know, went through all that and really had stuck in his mind.
This is how God made him.
And like, how was he going to change that?
And, you know, so I just I felt for him like and I had to hash that out with God.
And ultimately, obviously, I came to the conclusion, you know, that God is good and he did not

(30:30):
do this.
And this is just a sin that he was struggling with.
And the enemy had a grip on him and was pulling him deeper and deeper.
And I had to figure out how to stay strong in the Lord to help him, you know, because
he was floundering all over the place.

(30:52):
And then also, I had to let go.
I had to let go of a lot.
I had to let go of control of the ideas I had, how I was going to fix it.
I had to let go of all that.
I went through a huge, huge portion of this just in guilt and shame.
Like, what did I do wrong?

(31:15):
How did I mess I messed him up?
You know, I could have did this better.
I could have done that better.
So it was a lot of that.
I was stuck in that for a pretty long time.
And you know, God definitely freed me from that.
One night at a support, we go to a support group, I just felt I was just in a really

(31:36):
bad place.
And I just started crying and crying.
And a lady came up to me and said, you know, God told me to tell you this is not your fault.
You have to let this go.
You have to give it to him.
And I could just feel like the weight release in that moment.
And you know, tears were just flowing.
And I think that was the moment that I just finally let go of that.

(31:59):
You know, it's not my fault.
Nathan has his own free will.
He's going to make these he's making choices.
It wasn't God's fault.
It wasn't my fault.
It was just, you know, he was making these choices.
So that was a huge part of processing for me.

(32:20):
And I actually really had realized it I had my identity wrapped up in being a mom.
And when that came crashing down, and when I couldn't understand how everything that
I had done in my own mind, you know, for him in purposes to hope he was going to go the

(32:44):
path that you know, God had for him and I thought I had for him.
Yeah, I had to I realized that my identity was wrapped up so tightly and being a mom.
And when it all came crashing down, I didn't know how to like go on because I still did
have five other kids at home that I had to raise.

(33:06):
So I had, you know, the lies of the enemy speaking at me like, you're not good enough.
How are you going to keep raising these other kids?
So I just had a lot I had a lot that I had to work through.
Yeah, so I have a lot of questions on what you just said, because it's so similar to
the dynamics between my parents when my brother died.

(33:29):
You better believe my mom asked, what did I do wrong?
When I was pregnant?
Was there something that I did?
You mentioned something you just kind of briefly passed over something you said you had to
let go.
Was that a switch that was flipped?
Or was that a process that God had to do within you to get you to place your kid in your hands

(33:52):
and open up those fingers, loosen up that grip?
Was that just a God moment?
And he flipped a switch?
Or does he work with you and go?
Yeah, it wasn't that easy for me.
I'm pretty stubborn.
You know, I just I had it set like I was raising these babies, I was going to do real good.

(34:14):
You know, I got out of the military and I dedicated my whole life to, you know, raising
these babies up.
So I just, you know, I had such an identity in that it was a process.
It was a process.
So what does that process look like?
Is that worked out through prayer time, through the word, through support groups?

(34:34):
What are all those contributing factors?
Because if there are people out there that are holding on, I mean, Debbie, you've even
admitted that your son at one point was an idol and you had to realize that and also
let go.
So for you guys, what how does God get you to go, hey, you're holding on tight here.
Let's let go of something.

(34:56):
How does he work out that in you?
Yeah, I think it was really a combination of the things that you mentioned, the word
prayer.
I really dug deep in fasting, just trying to understand and just cry out to God.
Like why, you know, and he just he was faithful.
And every every question I had for him, whether it was over time that he answered it and his

(35:22):
word or just different ways he used people in my life.
And yeah, his truth, his word washed over me.
So power Nate, were there any verses that God gave to you?
What are those things?
You know, we had family verses that as literally I have a safe in the house that has a journal

(35:47):
in it that my parents kept while my brother was in the hospital where they would keep
track of all of his health numbers and so on and so forth.
And you'll notice almost on every page, God gives my parents a verse.
Here's the struggle your brother's having right now health wise.
And here's the verse that correlates with it.
So Nate, how did God walk you through what you needed to?

(36:11):
Were there verses and things like that?
Yeah, I mean, I'll start at the end and then go back to the beginning.
You know, in the end, it was it was all about putting Nathan at the foot of the cross.
And to do that, I had to come back to Matthew 22, 37, where Jesus says, what is the first

(36:32):
and most important commandment is to love your God with all your mind, all your heart
and all your soul.
And to do that, to show God that I love him, I have to let go.
I have to trust him.
I have to believe in him and that he's he's he's got this.
And that is where you end up becoming free from everything that the spiritual warfare

(36:53):
puts on your on your mind and tries to attack you with.
And so, you know, going back to kind of my my process of grieving was a little bit different
in that, you know, I I immediately went to, OK, well, you know, he's he's got to work
this out.

(37:13):
And I love them.
And your son, my son.
Yeah, he's got to work this out.
And I'm here for him.
But I've similarly have other children and a wife to take care of and a family to take
care of.
And so it's time to get back to work.
And so I immerse myself in and work and in an attention and taking care of the other
children and Alicia as best I can and and just try to try to go to the Lord and and

(37:40):
really eventually submit, but still holding on to it more than I should have.
You know, and it was definitely a process.
It's interesting because you both said something that was identical to my father.
About about two weeks after my brother had passed, my dad would always pray hardest in
the morning when he was taking a shower, getting ready to go to work.

(38:03):
That was being in the shower was, I guess, his prayer and meditation time.
You have that white noise and no one's going to bother you.
And he literally prayed, God, you have to take this burden from me because I have to
get back to the child that you've left me with.
That's the responsibility that you still entrust to me.

(38:23):
And he prayed that prayer.
And what was interesting was just two weeks.
It was literally roughly you'd have to ask my dad.
But I think it was like two weeks after my brother died.
You know, he's my dad's praying, God, you have to take this burden and this pain from
me because I have to turn my attention elsewhere to the son that I still have to, you know,

(38:44):
my wife and so on and so forth.
And God actually answered that prayer.
And my dad went 24 hours without thinking about my brother.
And as he realizes that he starts breaking down, feeling tremendous guilt that he had
not thought about my brother for 24 hours.

(39:07):
And God had to shake him and go, Steve, I answered your prayer.
What are you crying about?
You know, are there places where you've had something similar happen where God goes, hold
on a second.
I did something that's okay here.
Yeah, I think some of the people that have been brought into our life and our support

(39:32):
group has been great.
And our support group is full of people who have children and relatives that struggle
with this sin and this lifestyle.
And one of the things that was a eureka moment for me was the pastor who leads it.
He says, you know, if your son were in a relationship with, in living with a female but not married

(40:01):
and they were, you know, in sexual relations, would you treat him any different than you
do now?
And I had elevated his sin higher than other sins that he could be living in.
And that wasn't fair because we're all, we all have sin nature.
And for me to make that sin worse than any other sin, partially probably because I couldn't

(40:26):
necessarily wrap my head around the sin, wasn't a fair thing.
And God brought someone into my life to help me see that clearly.
And I think that was important.
That is, and I think that's a distinction in the church that we don't make.
My son, prodigal, and did all kinds of things that is normal in the culture but still sinful

(40:51):
to God.
And it's no different than, you know, we kind of categorize, well, that one's worse,
that sin's worse than this one, and that one's not so bad, and that one's kind of acceptable.
And we grade sin, and to God, it breaks his heart.
It breaks his heart because it's not his design.

(41:14):
So yeah, that's interesting you bring that up because, like, my next question is, you
know, the capital C church, the greater community of believers, what can we do to stop putting
shame and guilt on people who have this in their story?

(41:37):
And what can we do better?
What would you say would be something that you would like to have seen done differently
in this process, not necessarily with our church per se, but just in general in the
Christian culture, the larger umbrella?
What are we missing here?
Yeah, I think it's important, if I could change something looking back, I guess, it's important

(42:03):
that the church, the Big C church, takes inventory on the fact that everybody's going through
something.
And as we kind of talked through, you know, not elevating one thing worse than the other,
but really having compassion and an avenue, if you will, that people feel that they can

(42:27):
be vulnerable.
And the only way that they can be vulnerable is if they feel as if it's a safe place.
So there's got to be conversations on the topics that people don't want to talk about.
Sexuality, pornography, addiction, those types of sins that get elevated higher than others
are no worse than the sins that everyone's struggling with, but no one wants to talk

(42:49):
about them.
So how do we create a safe place for people to feel that they can be open and honest so
that they can get help and they can have accountability or anything that they need within the church
without feeling shameful and hiding it?
Yeah.
Yeah, if you're ashamed of something, you're never going to approach friends.

(43:13):
You're never going to get answers, direction, you know.
So much, again, had lunch over the weekend with a friend of ours, and she's such a great
evangelist.
This woman is so fearless in sharing her faith that Deb just asked the simple question, how
do I get to where you're at in sharing your faith?

(43:35):
And her answer was so simple.
It was just start doing life with people.
And when they see that you show up when other people don't, like I'm in marketing, but marketing
so attached to the hip with sales, one of the things that I notice, I don't remember
what the statistics are, but it's something along the lines of 90% of salesmen stop calling

(43:59):
after the third phone call.
But 90% of sales happen on the 12th or later phone call.
So most people give up before they ever make it to the sweet spot of selling.
And I think if you show up at times where society doesn't and you consistently, and

(44:20):
that truly is sometimes where I struggle with the church is, you know, the Bible says, let
your yeses be yes and your noes be no.
And so many times Christians, you know, somebody's trying to move, but it's raining outside,
so people say they're not going to come.
But you said you were going to come.
I didn't put a stipulation of only if it's not raining.

(44:40):
I still need help.
I still got to move.
My lease is up.
And so just that consistency of showing up and evangelizing, it starts as simple as maybe
a text message.
Hey, man, I know you're going through something right now.
How can I pray for you?
It could be so many different things, but always grounded and rooted in compassion and

(45:05):
trying to understand.
And I think humility too, because when someone looks at your struggle and thinks, can't believe
they're struggling with that.
That's the exact opposite of how we behave.
I mean, if someone can go, I'm no better, and I'm prone to my own sin struggles, I'm
prone to all the things that I'm broken in, and my sin is just as dirty as your sin, as

(45:33):
your sin and your sin.
And I think when we're looking at our fellow friends and family members and believers,
and we think in some way, shape, or form that, well, at least I'm not as bad as them.
That's the thing that nobody's really talking about.
I do think people judge.
I do think people think that gluttony is not as bad as a sexual sin, or that stealing stuff

(46:00):
at work is not as bad as a sexual sin.
I think we have this category that we don't ever really talk about, but is actually really
there.
And I'd love to break down those walls and say, hey, me choosing chocolate cake instead
of going to God and being a glutton is still as sinful as being in a relationship with

(46:23):
someone I shouldn't be in, being in a sexual relationship outside of marriage.
We don't look at it like that, and that needs to change.
Yeah.
Amen.
Amen.
So, kind of circling back to Nathan's story, he's 20-ish years old, and he's heading down

(46:43):
to Fort Lauderdale.
How long is he down there?
What's happening there?
Let's pick up that story.
So let's see.
He was probably down there, I'd say, for about eight months or so.
And then the next thing you know, we get a call.
He rolled his car in our town, actually.

(47:03):
He had come back on a visit, but didn't tell us.
He was visiting somebody else.
And so he calls us and says, can you pick me up?
I just rolled my car over.
I don't want to get in the ambulance because I don't have money for that.
So by the time I got there, he had already, he went in the ambulance after all.
So I went to the hospital, and let's see, he was okay.

(47:26):
Praise God.
Of course, I'm thinking, well, this is another, he's coming back.
He's hit rock bottom on this one.
But he came back to our house for a couple days and then ended up having a friend, because
he didn't have a car now.
He rolled his car, he totaled his car.
Now what's he going to do now?
Go back down to Fort Lauderdale without a vehicle?

(47:47):
But sure enough, that's what he did.
I thought he wasn't, but he called his friend up.
She came and picked him up, went back down there.
And I'd say it was probably three months after that he called me.
Actually, I know it was May 31st because I was praising God because the next day would
have been Pride Month.

(48:07):
And there probably would have been a lot of really crazy stuff going on.
We don't believe in coincidences with God.
So I mean, I am like, okay, Lord, you know, he called and said, I need you to come get
me now.
I'm in a bad situation.
I got to get out of here.
I got to get out of here.
I tried to get an Uber, but nobody will take me all the way up there.
So I got in my car, drove down there.

(48:29):
It was a bad situation.
I was on travel.
I was I wasn't even in Florida at the time.
And I actually called him because I was concerned for her safety because I didn't know what
was going on.
So I called him and I said, this your mother is coming to get you.
I'm good with that.
But I need to know that she's going to be safe in whatever environment she's walking

(48:49):
into right now.
And he assured me that he would it was safe and that he would just get in the car and
they would leave.
So I pulled up, got in his driveway, called him.
Next thing I know, I've got a couple of crackheads banging on my window.
I'm like, what in the world?

(49:10):
And then here he came with a bunch of stuff, threw it in the car, shooed the crackheads
away and then said, I got to go get more.
And I was like, do you want help?
He said, no, which I guess maybe he didn't want me to go in the house because he was
trying to keep me safe.
He said, lock the doors.
I'll be back.
So back and forth several different times.

(49:31):
Got in the car with all this stuff.
We start driving away.
Next thing I know, he's on the phone with his roommate who I guess her and him had some
sort of relationship going on and she's begging him, stay here, come back.
Let's talk this out.

(49:51):
He's asking me to stop at the next exit so he can meet up with her.
I said, no, I said, we're going.
Like that's it.
I'm not meeting up with her.
We're going.
So we just kept driving and we made it home and of course I'm thinking this is like it.
This is it.
He's coming home.
My protocol is coming home.
But that definitely was not the case.
I mean, he came home, but it wasn't like the story that you hope it's going to be.

(50:18):
We were open arm.
It felt like our side of the story.
We were open arm.
I had the ring ready.
So a year in Wilton Manors will change a person.
How did he come home?
What changed in him during that year?

(50:43):
He was pretty broken.
I could tell he didn't share everything, but there was definitely some stuff in that year
that he had seen that he had gone through.
I actually was on my way back from Miami while he was living in Wilton Manor and he asked

(51:06):
me if I'd stop and have dinner with him.
I did not know anything about Wilton Manor until this.
I didn't look it up.
He actually didn't really say to us like I'm moving to Wilton Manor.
And I had two of my youngest kids with me at the time.
And so he said, okay, pick me up.
So I picked him up and we went and had dinner and he took me to Wilton Manor.

(51:30):
So I was able to witness just for two hours the craziness going on in that town.
While we were there, there was a gay parade going by, people half naked.
Just anything going on was going on.

(51:51):
So I can only imagine what he had seen in that year and what he had gone through.
And when he did come home, he had now kind of transitioned to having makeup on at some
level.
It wasn't extravagant makeup, but you could tell he was wearing some level of makeup,
which was different.
What more disturbing was this idea of new age spirituality and crystals and tarot cards

(52:22):
and all the things I said, I can't, I mean, I have an obligation to our household that
these things cannot be in our house.
As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
So he would set up his altars.
He called them an altar.
And it was on his piano that was in his room that we had bought for him when he was still

(52:48):
living at the house and so good at piano.
And he played so many beautiful songs on that.
So I just could not get rid of it.
Nobody else in our family was musical, but we drug that piano, let me tell you, to our
new house.
And I was going to hold onto that piano because I have, I would hope that he was going to
come back and he was going to play it again.
But he was actually setting altars up on this piano.

(53:12):
We didn't know what was going on with the whole dust everywhere.
It was incense and like, what is going on?
And then now we realized and had conversations with him about, Hey, this isn't good.
And he wanted to have some theological discussions and I gladly embraced those opportunities
to share the truth with him.

(53:33):
But he was online constantly looking up the rhetoricals and the rhetoric that online groups
have that they want to take a stand on.
And he brings up slavery.
Why would there be slaves in the Old Testament?

(53:54):
So we had a good long, I did a lot of research to make sure he understood the context of
what was going on and not just pulling out single verses and things.
So he didn't want to hear these things, but I shared them with him anyway.
Was he combative when he asked those questions or did he have some sense of curiosity?

(54:18):
No, it was always just to take a position, a negative position on the word and on God.
And so fast forward.
Wait, one thing I remember during that he said to me, well, you know, God would say
kill anybody that was gay.
He would tell people to do that back in the day.

(54:38):
What would you do?
What would you do if that was if that was me and you would you then kill me?
Would you stone me?
You know, like asking me these sorts of questions.
And I was like, when that's that's where the apologetics has to kick in because you could
be five years old on a playground and a kid runs up to you and goes, hey, Nate, does your

(54:58):
mom know you're stupid?
If you say yes or you say no, it's lose lose because the assumption is you're stupid and
the assumption is what needs to be addressed.
Those are situations where you're being put in a position.
So many people will, you know, around topics like abortion, what Christians believe, you
know, it's not you.

(55:19):
You literally can't address the question, you have to address the assumption.
What is the assumption behind a question like that?
And let's work that kink out and then what's the question will automatically be rephrased.
So that's that's a tough that's a tough thing, especially if it's in the moment.
Right.
And it's your kid that that's a tough thing to think through and have a positive reaction

(55:45):
to.
I can only imagine.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm under a lot of pressure, probably like I want to get this, you know, I want to give
a thorough answer, but I'm put on the spot and I want to answer respectfully and kind.
But you know, they're coming combatively towards me with this.
I can imagine how hard that was.

(56:07):
You know, I know that it probably was like, hey, I'll get back to you on that.
That's my first reaction would be like, hey, let me do some research and let's have a conversation
over coffee, you know, right.
A couple of days from now.
Yeah, there was several of those.
Yeah.
And I know because we had talked through some of them like it was good in a way for you

(56:27):
guys, because then you had explored things that maybe you wouldn't have explored had
the question not come up.
So in any way, shape or form, it drew you closer into the word.
And research is always a way that you're like, wow, Lord, there's stuff about your word
that like really illuminates me when I study it.

(56:47):
And wow, like I'm sure in that time of study, God gave you nuggets too.
Absolutely.
So.
And it's always amazing that no matter how much pressure you apply to God's word, it
always comes through just fine on the other side.
You can apply pressure from every angle possible, but because it is pure truth, it doesn't

(57:13):
matter.
So any question that's out there, you know, another question I would have for you guys
is how do you draw the line between enabling and saying no with compassion and so on and
so forth as because he's navigating to say it's troubled waters is an understatement

(57:36):
right now.
Right.
He's bought into doctrine of demons at this point.
What is it like to walk that line and still hopefully he walks away from conversations
going, hey, my mom and dad might have said no, but they did do it at least in love, you
know, but you're not enabling your kid in that behavior.

(57:59):
What is that?
What is that like?
That's definitely been a constant, you know, trying to find that balance to come with truth,
but with grace, because that's what we have to do.
Because, yeah, if you just push truth on him and say this is what it's saying and this
is, you know, this and that, and then he might walk away like, well, that wasn't fruitful.

(58:23):
But just to come at him and with him to walk away with maybe I don't believe what you
just said, but you showed me love bringing it to me and you weren't yelling at me and
bringing condemnation, you were just speaking what you believe and truth, you know.
And Nate, especially for you, you said both your parents had multiple marriages and so

(58:47):
on and so forth.
What was modeled for you as far as communication between husband and wife?
Were these marriages, was there a lot of yelling?
Was there avoiding topics?
What was modeled for you?
Like are you trying to break a cycle with your son?
What is happening in that realm?

(59:08):
Yeah, there was, I'll say, no good models.
We'll start there.
So yeah, I had to kind of work through this on my own, you know, with respect to what
that looked like.
I mean, when I say that, I don't mean without the Lord, but more of a, I didn't have an
earthly example per se to follow.

(59:33):
And you know, my default generally would be to kind of withdraw a little bit and kind
of just remove myself from the situation.
I'm not an angry person.
The Lord took that away from me a long time ago, so that's helpful.

(59:53):
I never yelled, never got combative or anything with Nathan.
So it was, but I also had probably an easier time than Alicia did at being direct when
we needed to be direct and firm when we needed to be firm on positions that we were taking.

(01:00:15):
So he comes back, he's changed, you know, so much from being in Wilton Manners.
He's back home now.
What?
So yeah, it was a very dark spiritual time to be honest.

(01:00:35):
It was, you know, he was bringing stuff in the house as fast as he was bringing it in.
Nate was saying, get it out.
What is stuff?
The crystals, the crystals, the new age stuff.
Just setting the altar back up after he told him you got to get it out and then he'd set
it back up.

(01:00:56):
Just all kinds of stuff like that.
And then, you know, with him coming at us just, and he, you could definitely tell he
was struggling.
He was depressed.
He would stay in his room a lot.
I tried to get him to come out.
The kids would try to say, hey, Nathan, why don't you come, can you come play video games
with us?
And you know, he didn't.

(01:01:17):
He just was very withdrawn.
And then he did get a job.
So he worked, I believe it was midnight or he worked real late.
And so then, yeah, he would sleep in real late and then he'd get up and get ready and
go to work again.
So he wasn't home a lot.
And when he was home, he was sleeping a lot.
Yeah.

(01:01:37):
I mean, we tried to integrate him back into the family by inviting him to be a part of
things and having dinner with us and really trying to just let him feel like he was home
and that his family loved him.
But he did withdraw a lot and always had, you know, excuses why he didn't want to.
And I guess the other thing that we didn't talk about along this journey is that he has

(01:02:02):
been experimenting or not experimenting.
I guess I sound like an old person now doing some level of drugs, you know, along the way.
And I don't know at what levels, but, you know, we found Kratom, which is I don't know
what that even is that you can buy gas stations and marijuana.
I don't think I've heard of that.

(01:02:22):
Yeah, it's like a I don't even know what it is.
It's a root or something.
I don't know.
But anyways, I know it was more than that.
Yeah, it was definitely.
His appearance is starting to change the makeup and fingernails painted and.
Yeah, like actually going and getting his nails done and having like acrylic nails.

(01:02:45):
And yeah.
So this went on for six months and part of integrating back into the house is he was
living there as part of the family and everybody in our family has responsibilities.
Sure.
You're living under the roof.
And so he had some chores.
And then, by the way, it's not like we asked him to mow the lawn, but it was it was a few

(01:03:06):
tasks.
You know, clean up the bathroom that you use, you know, just simple stuff like that.
Wash your own dishes.
OK.
Yeah.
I mean, he would leave dishes in the sink and then other kids would get stuck doing
his dishes.
So there was just a lot of tension and frustration with the siblings in that way because, you

(01:03:26):
know, he just kind of I guess I'm older and I'm not going to do that.
And we were like, that doesn't work that way.
You know.
So, yeah, there was a lot of that going on.
But we did have some really good times, too.
He's funny.
He's sweet.
He has a good heart.
So we did have, you know, some really fun nights and stuff while he was there.

(01:03:49):
So, but, you know, it was there was some spiritual stuff going on.
Absolutely.
You could see it.
You could just see it.
You could feel it really.
That's heartbreaking.
I know that I could see that in my son when he was very far from the Lord.
You could just see the anguish and stuff he couldn't even express.
But you could you could see it.
Yeah.

(01:04:09):
Yeah.
And I just you just feel so bad.
Powerless.
Yeah.
And in essence, you are because it's the Lord's fight.
But that's right.
Yeah.
It's yeah.
It's a hard feeling as a parent.
So where is Nathan now?
So he lives less than a mile from us, like these little three single condo like single

(01:04:33):
room condos.
And he's there.
And so what what gives you guys hope?
Are there any what are those verses that cause you to just hold on a little longer that cause
you to go, you know, hey, God does have this.
It's not you don't judge the end of a story by the middle of the story.

(01:04:56):
And you guys are in the middle of the story right now.
So for people that are listening and again, I know I hope nobody tuned out because, hey,
this is an LGBTQ story.
I don't relate with that.
That's not what this is.
It's much larger than this.
There are people holding on.
I mean, my goodness, Deb, you and I have verses that we're holding on to just with mom as

(01:05:21):
well, you know, just was it last week you had to take her to the emergency room a couple
of times and, you know, we're worn out.
You guys have got to be worn out.
So what are those things that give you hope that you hold on to?
What are those?
You know, I believe firmly in putting God in remembrance of his promises.
God, you said this.

(01:05:42):
Therefore, it has to be true.
What is it for you guys?
Yeah.
I mean, Joshua one night comes to mind constantly.
Right.
Joshua is a spirit of fear, but of power and of sound mind.
And so I come back to a moment that I had that I didn't share earlier, which again,
leaving giving Nathan to the Lord and putting the situation at the foot of the cross.

(01:06:08):
I was in church and I was praying fervently.
I think I was probably one of my fasting times and I closed my eyes and I was in the moment
and then just this 4K HD vision.
I guess the only way I can describe it and it's Nathan and he's standing in front of

(01:06:30):
a crowd of people and he's preaching the gospel.
And I said, his story is not over.
And that's where my hope is that his story is not over.
God's not done with him yet.
Well, in God's word, it says that he's planned us.

(01:06:53):
He's purposed us for such a time as this.
God has plans for Nathan and they're good.
Nathan just has to make that U-turn and go that way.
And so I do.
I have hope as well that God can redeem this.
Absolutely.
God can redeem his life.
He can redeem any single one of us.

(01:07:13):
All we have to do is come to him.
Yeah, that's the irony.
So many times, your son's story, he's looking for acceptance in all the wrong places.
God is so accepting, not of your sins, of you.

(01:07:36):
It's ironic that we'll turn and we'll look at anything and everything besides him for
acceptance when he's the one that we need to turn to.
It's just incredible.
And in saying that, we're not going to find what we're looking for until we find it in
him.
He's trying everything, right?

(01:07:56):
He's trying drugs.
He's trying crystals.
He's trying Wilton Manor.
He's literally going through the gambit.
So one of the verses that's always so almost, I would say, we throw it around a bit too
casually is no weapon formed against me shall ever prosper.

(01:08:18):
That's right.
But talk to a mom and dad whose kid has weapons like drugs, like same sex attraction, like
all these things that you guys have rattled off.
That verse changes.
Satan is sitting there pointing some very dangerous weapons at your child.

(01:08:43):
And for you to let go and let God, that's powerful.
We can throw that verse around, but until you're going through a situation like this,
you don't really appreciate what that verse means.

(01:09:03):
That's right.
Because it seems different because it's your kid.
It seems different because X, Y, and Z, but the reality is the peace of Christ rules over
all the inequities, over all the questions.
So yeah, my encouragement to you guys, like my family did not understand when my brother

(01:09:26):
was nine months old when he was taken.
He had a heart problem.
And you know, actually next year is going to be 40 year anniversary of him passing.
And I would tell you as part of the family that's 40 years removed, you know, we had
to pay a price of admission that nobody wanted to pay in order to speak into an area where

(01:09:49):
God needs more people speaking.
And my encouragement for you guys is just that keep doing things God's way, keep giving
it up to him.
You mentioned leaving things at the cross, you're doing all the right things and my encouragement
is just hang on to those verses, man, because I 100% believe your vision was true.

(01:10:14):
And I think Nathan's going to come out of this with a testimony to a group of people
that need Jesus so badly and he can go, you know what, I walked down those roads because
I was looking for acceptance and I was looking at all the wrong places.
And so I would just encourage you guys, keep, keep holding on and you know, everybody, if

(01:10:38):
you ask everybody, you know, who wants a miracle, everybody's going to raise their hands.
No one wants the trial that comes before the miracle to make it a miracle.
Who wants to be in a position where you need a miracle?
And the answer is not many of those people will raise their hand ever again.
So it's, yeah, it's, it's tough.
My heart is with you guys, but keep hanging on, man.

(01:11:02):
God is good.
He doesn't return null and void.
That's right.
Yeah.
We're so grateful that you felt safe to come and tell your story.
Thank you so much.
You know, you're not, you're loved and we're so grateful that we could be honest and talk
about hard things and it takes bravery.
And so we appreciate you guys.

(01:11:23):
Yeah.
And before we leave, was there anything you feel we missed?
Anything you went, Oh man, I wish I had said that, that, you know, Oh, I forgot this memory.
I forgot to mention this.
Was there anything that you feel like we kind of left out or you feel like, no, that's,
that's the story.
I think we covered pretty much everything.
I guess I would, I would speak a word of encouragement to couples, husbands and wives that are going

(01:11:48):
through similar challenges, whether you're prodigals going down the path of this lifestyle
or if they're struggling with other things that the enemy wants to divide, you know,
he wants to kill, steal and destroy.
And the division that he wants to do is divide you and your wife or you and your husband.
And you got to put Jesus at the center of that and you got to stay strong together and for

(01:12:12):
each other or it, it's gonna, it's going to be a victory for the enemy if they, if he
divides.
So stay strong together and stay strong in the Lord.
Amen to that.
I think that's the perfect way to end the episode.
Thank you guys so much for coming in and sharing this portion of your story.
We're anxious to see how everything turns out from here, but you guys are still in the

(01:12:35):
thick of it.
So audience, if you don't mind saying a prayer for little Nathan and please just, just that
the scales would be removed from his eyes and understand how much his heavenly father
loves him.
How much his earthly father loves him, how much his earthly mother loves him and all
of his siblings.
We pray for that for sure.
But yeah, thank you guys for coming in.

(01:12:56):
This is one of those topics that we feel just is not, not openly talked about and how you
handle this and navigate these types of things.
So thank you guys so much.
We appreciate it.
Yeah.
Thank you guys.
Thank you guys.
So audience, thank you guys for hanging out.
We want a little bit longer than normal today, but hopefully the content was worth it.

(01:13:17):
Thank you for sticking around.
We will see you guys in the next episode.
Thanks so much.
Stay send.

(01:13:50):
Aminгов Laser.

(01:14:34):
Thanks for watching guys!