November 25, 2025 • 28 mins
A heavyweight crown can change a career. Fighting for dignity can change a country. We sit down with historian Randy Roberts to explore how Joe Louis moved from Detroit icon to global symbol during World War II, turning quiet resolve into a powerful stand against Jim Crow while uniting millions under one flag.
Randy takes us inside The Fight of His Life, the book he coauthored with Johnny Smith, drawing on thousands of newspaper archives, Army and State Department records, and on‑the‑ground reports from bases in the United States, England, and Italy. We retrace Louis’s transformative wartime years: the relief title defenses where he donated his entire purses, the morale‑boosting exhibition tours with Sugar Ray Robinson, and the tense showdown at Camp Sibert when an MP tried to force him from a whites‑only area. These moments reveal how a soft‑spoken champion found his political voice and insisted the Army live up to American ideals.
We also unpack the long shadow of Jack Johnson and how Louis was crafted as his public opposite, only to outgrow the script when justice demanded it. The conversation follows Louis beyond the ring: helping Jackie Robinson into officer candidate school at Fort Riley, pushing the PGA to grant an exemption that cracked golf’s color line, and ultimately earning an Arlington burial waiver with an assist from Ronald Reagan. Along the way, we reflect on Detroit’s own story—from the famed fist on Jefferson to a new statue honoring Louis the golfer, and the memory of Black Bottom as the city aims to rebuild with respect for what was lost.
If you care about sports history, World War II, civil rights, or Detroit’s legacy, this deep dive offers fresh insight into a champion whose greatest victories happened outside the ring. Listen, share with a friend, and tell us your takeaway—and if you enjoy the show, subscribe and leave a review so more people can find these stories.
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Episode Transcript
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Jamie Flanagan (00:03):
1935.
The Lions win the NFLChampionship.
The Detroit Tigers take theworld series.
The Red Wings bring home LordStanley's Cup.
Joe Lewis begins his rise toworld domination.
This transforms the motor cityinto Detroit City of Champions.
And there you go with the crackof the bat.
(00:25):
We are back with anotherepisode of Detroit City of
Champions, Jamie Fly It Solo.
What I'm going to ask you to doright now, we appreciate
everybody who joins us on thisjourney through these amazing,
amazing stories.
And I ask that you do somethingright now is just simply like,
subscribe, leave a comment, doall those podcast things in all
those podcast places.
(00:46):
We truly, genuinely appreciateit.
Uh the time you spend with us.
And if you've enjoyed it, uhshare it with a friend.
That's all.
That's all Charles and I askyou to do.
And tonight, though, talkingabout stories, and and we did,
we'll put it, we'll link themdown in the description.
We did the whole series on onJoe Lewis, which is interesting
(01:07):
because Joe Lewis, all thechampions in in 1935, right?
The the Lions, the Tigers, thewhat Red Wings all won their
first championships, plus 30other champions, all in Detroit,
all in 35, and Joe Lewis wasn'tone.
And we go through that wholestory, but uh we did contend and
we did argue that Joe Lewis hadthe greatest season of any
(01:30):
individual season of anyindividual athlete ever, bar
none.
And I think we made that casepretty decisively.
And Joe Lewis is a it was avery multifaceted individual,
and yet he was a boxer, and thatwas he was very single-minded
and single single-focused.
And Johnny Smith and RandyRoberts were diving into the
(01:53):
simplicity, complexity uh of theman and their book, The Fight
of His Life, Joe Lewis, Battlefor Freedom During World War II.
And we got some interestingstuff to share, and we're gonna
bring on the author of thatbook, Randy Roberts.
Randy, welcome to Detroit Cityof Champions.
Randy Roberts (02:10):
Hi, thanks a lot, Jamie.
Jamie, he 35 was a great yearfor Lewis.
I mean, you know, he beat PrimoCanarin 35, he beat Max Bear in
35.
Oh, yeah, two two worldchampions in 35.
Oh, yeah, but he just it wasn'tshorter, I think, was 35.
Jamie Flanagan (02:28):
The championship.
I mean, his career that's theyear his career uh bolstered and
grew, and and and yeah, he diddecidedly have the best season
of any individual athlete ever,but it wasn't for the
championship.
No, no, darn it, Max Bear, yougoofball, yeah, you Cinderella
man losing goofball.
Yeah, so but Randy, before weget into this, tell me about
(02:51):
your childhood.
My childhood, yeah.
Tell me a little bit about you.
Randy Roberts (02:55):
Uh yeah, I I I was born in the Pittsburgh area.
Oh, okay, right.
A lot like Detroit, yeah, andyou know, became interested in
boxing at a very young age,mostly interested in the history
of boxing, more interested inthe history of boxing than the
sport, than actually boxing.
But and I became interested inwhen went good.
Then I went to college and didmy graduate work, PhD work at
(03:20):
LSU, which was a good time ifyou like college football.
And since then I've beenteaching, I've been since 1988,
I've been teaching at PurdueUniversity, mostly courses on
World War II and sport history.
Jamie Flanagan (03:34):
All right, all right.
And so what was Johnny Smith?
How did you guys hook up?
And what was the what was theprecipice for diving into this
book?
Randy Roberts (03:45):
Johnny and I have that's our fourth book
together.
Initially, yeah, initially wewere uh Johnny was one of my PhD
students, and but you know,he's not a student anymore.
Uh he's an accomplished author,and we we did our first book we
did was on Muhammad Ali andMalcolm X, all right, which was
(04:05):
a good book to uh uh to do.
Then we did one on World WarOne and some Babe Ruth and some
other uh characters in World WarOne, and also one on Mickey
Mantle, that's our fourth book.
Jamie Flanagan (04:17):
Oh, Mickey.
That's that's not a problematicindividual at all, there.
Randy Roberts (04:22):
No, no, nothing problematic about the men.
Jamie Flanagan (04:28):
Yikes.
Sometimes people don't know allthe history, and that's why
professors of history uh areimportant to shed the light.
Randy Roberts (04:37):
Sometimes Mickey Meandle, it's best to not know
the full story, you know.
Jamie Flanagan (04:40):
And it's it's like today, there's so many
people like you know, you youthrew out like you know, Bill
Cosby and Puff Daddy, and it'sit's you know, Art Kelly is I as
a D I DJ stuff too, and it'slike, do you play the music or
like I teach a broadcast classin high school?
You know, do you not show BillCosby?
Because it was that was likethat was like the pivotal black
comedy changing things.
(05:01):
So, you know, where do youseparate the art and the artist
again with somebody like MickeyMantley?
I mean, you gotta you guesssometimes you gotta peel those
layers back and and tell thefull story, but does that negate
everything else, right?
Randy Roberts (05:13):
Yeah, well, I I don't think Mickey was trying
quite in the R.
Kelly category.
Jamie Flanagan (05:17):
No, no, I know, you know, but uh, you know, Pete
Rose, right?
Pete Rose, should he be in theHall of Fame?
I mean, Pete Rose was anotherproblematic.
Uh has he got a Pete Rose bookon the horizon?
Randy Roberts (05:27):
No, I don't, but I could tell you a cool story
about Pete Rose.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Go ahead.
Okay, a friend of minegraduated from Yale, and he has
a PhD, his gra his PhD when hegraduated, and he had Pete Rose
sign it at one of the signings.
I don't know, a hundreddollars, whatever Pete Rose.
Yeah, signed his PhD, and nowalso signing that PhD was the
(05:53):
president of the Yale at thetime.
All right, Bart Giamatti.
So he's got Bart Giamatti andPete Rose signed the same
document.
Jamie Flanagan (06:04):
Oh boy, oh boy, that's very interesting.
All right, but we're talkingabout Joe Lewis in your book,
The Fight of His Life.
It it's interesting about Joe,and there was like how I was
name-dropping earlier before wewent live, and Jojo, his son Joe
Lewis Barrow Jr.
the third, right?
(06:24):
Because he named all his likehe named all his kids Joe Lewis.
So JoJo was in town launchingJoe Lewis Southern Kitchen, and
he brought us down for the grandopening of that Jojo there, and
it was fun.
But they had also prior priorto that, and how I connected
with Jojo was that I do anotherpodcast, The Man Cave Happy
Hour, which is all aboutbourbons, whiskies, cocktails,
(06:45):
spirits.
And like right before COVID,they or right during COVID, they
launched Joe Lewis bourbon,right?
So the family, because thefamily is very, very, very, very
tight with the the Joe Lewisname, and they don't let just
anybody do anything.
And and so they did the JoeLewis bourbon and they were
very, very careful abouteverything and the packaging,
(07:08):
and they did this really coolthing.
And in the background, so youhad the label on the front, and
you had your label on the back,and the back of the label on the
back had a they wanted apicture of like you know, up
front on the label is Joe, andthen in the background they had
like a crowd from one of hisfights, but most of the fights
were fairly segregated, so itwas either all white folk or all
black folk in most of thepictures because it was pretty
(07:30):
segregated.
And the only fights that werelike really not segregated were
the ones during World War II andthe fights that he did and the
exhibitions that he did, becauseall the servicemen were just
servicemen and they were alljust there together, and so
that's finally how they settledon the picture for the back is
because you know it was a mixedcrowd, they wanted it, they
(07:50):
wanted a diverse crowd, and itwas really hard to find a photo
of it of a diverse crowd, and sothat's what you're talking
about.
So, walk me through the book.
What are people uh what's thestory that you tell about Joe in
the fight of his life?
Randy Roberts (08:06):
The story we tell is one that really hadn't been
told to the extent that we did,and it was about Joe Lewis in
World War II.
It's about Joe Lewis findinghis voice politically and
opposing Jim Crow and opposingsegregation in the in the United
States Army, but at the sametime acting as a symbol of unity
(08:28):
in America.
Jamie Flanagan (08:31):
So with the sources that you went to, who
were you able to talk to aboutthis?
Randy Roberts (08:37):
Well, there's not many people left around to talk
to about Joe Lewis.
Jamie Flanagan (08:41):
Yeah, there's not many World War II guys left
for sure.
Randy Roberts (08:44):
We talked to his son who was born in World War
II, right?
Jamie Flanagan (08:47):
Right.
The older son, yeah.
Randy Roberts (08:48):
And but he but you know, he didn't have much
memory memories of his father atan early age.
He did at a later age.
But what we did is uh, youknow, we went through tons of
newspaper files, just thousandsof different newspaper articles,
government documents,department of the army
documents, department of statedocuments, you know, followed
(09:11):
him overseas in his tours ofEngland and and and Italy
mostly, and just and just wenton to the army bases with him,
the where he faceddiscrimination and what he did,
what he did for the government,what he did for America as a
symbol of democracy and andrepublicanism during World War
(09:35):
II.
Of course, you know, he hebecame famous.
His most famous fight was in1938, June 22nd, 1938, when he
fought Max Schmelling, right?
The Nazi hero and knocked himout in one round.
So after that, Joe Lewis was anatural to represent America and
its fight against Nazism.
Jamie Flanagan (09:59):
So what's uh what is one of the interesting
tidbits?
What's one of the interestingstories in in here that you
uncovered in your research?
What's something that uh isgonna surprise me as I as I get
into this?
Randy Roberts (10:10):
Well, there's a number of stories.
Uh yeah, an interesting onetakes place at Camp Sybert in
Alabama, where Joe Lewis wasgoing to go into town with Sugar
A.
Robinson.
Sugar A.
Robinson, the great fighter,was uh a friend of Joe Lewis and
was in on Joe Lewis's boxingtroupe that he took around to
various bases.
And they were going to go intotown, and there was only one bus
(10:35):
for black soldiers and two forwhite soldiers.
And it was they were waiting along time, and they went over
and to to the to to the whiteside because to call a taxi.
The taxi was on the white side,so they called a taxi and then
sat down to wait.
And it's an MP came up to JoeLewis and said, You can't sit
(10:59):
here.
You're in a white section.
And Joe Lewis said, This is asegregated base.
I can sit here.
No, you can't.
And before you know it, theywere wrestling around.
Joe Lewis was was was a wastaken to the MP, was taken to
the uh prison, not prison, but akind of a local jail, just kind
of didn't put him in jail, wassent to see the commanding
(11:21):
officer and it became a but JoeLewis held his ground.
He said, no, this is this is wemay not have a segregated army,
but the bases are segregatedthat I can the I can go on
whatever bus I want.
I don't have to follow the JimCrow laws.
Jamie Flanagan (11:37):
Right.
Wow.
I did that that story I had notI had not heard before.
Randy Roberts (11:43):
So and also segregated bases, the bases were
not segregated overseas, right?
But there was de factosegregation.
So where black soldiers wouldgo to the white say bars, the
white officer would say, no,you're not allowed here.
Or or if if they allowed blacksoldiers into it, the bars were
(12:05):
disc uh continued for all whitesoldiers.
So he faced terriblediscrimination overseas as well.
Jamie Flanagan (12:14):
Wow.
Wow, wow, wow, wow.
So what do you think?
Because you said you you'reyou're uh an advocate of boxing
history.
So now am I getting the nameright?
Jack Johnson, right?
Yes.
Uh so what do you think therole because Jack Johnson was
kind of uh a very flamboyant,very outgoing, and and it would
(12:34):
that was like the the the 20sand earlier, right?
Teens in the teens, yeah.
So it and and and his behavior,you know, even was uh shocking
for the the racial divide at thetime.
Uh what do you think?
J his Jack Johnson's uhexistence and and and his
behavior impacted Joe and andand his his ability to be a
(12:58):
boxer.
Randy Roberts (12:59):
Jack Johnson was his own man, lived a fast life.
You know, there's a the storythat Jack Johnson was going
through some section of the JimCrow South, and he was he always
went too fast.
He was driving fast, and he wasstopped by a white sheriff, and
the white sheriff said, Youknow, you're going you're
passing exceeding the speedlimit, boy.
(13:19):
He said, Yeah, I suppose I was.
And and he said, Well, it'sgonna cost you, and Jack Johnson
said, How much?
And the sheriff said, $50.
And Jack Johnson pulled a bigroll out of his pocket and
peeled off a hundred dollar billand gave it to him.
And it and the and the copsaid, I can't change a
hundred-dollar bill.
And Jack Johnson said, Keep thechains, I'm coming back the
(13:41):
same way as I went through.
But that was Jack Johnson.
Sure.
Jack Johnson was the fast life.
He he he did what he wanted, hemarried white women.
Joe Lewis was consciouslydeveloped into the anti-Jack
Johnson.
You know, America, after JackJohnson lost the title, it won't
(14:02):
be until Joe Lewis that untilanother black man gets a chance
to fight for the title.
So Jack Johnson would becamethe antithesis of Joe Lewis.
Joe Lewis's manager,particularly John Roxbury, made
sure that Joe Lewis never wasseen in the company of white
women, that he was alwayssoft-spoken, that he was not
outspoken, that he did not drivedepart opponents.
(14:26):
Everything that that thatJohnson did, Lewis didn't do.
Jamie Flanagan (14:31):
Right.
So that's the thing.
So it made it even more of achallenge for Joe, I believe, to
to to get his leg up and andand and do the amazing things
that he did.
It just facing facing thosechallenges ahead of time.
So through the 30s and the 40s,this book kind of focuses on
that time frame.
Randy Roberts (14:52):
Yes, yes, from the late 30s uh to the early
50s.
Jamie Flanagan (14:57):
After that, right?
I wanted to talk about uh whatcame after boxing and after his
service.
Do you did you dive into thatat all?
Have you I mean not necessarilyfor the book, but the movements
and uh especially the into uhprofessional golf?
Randy Roberts (15:12):
Yeah, I uh we have we we deal with that in the
book.
Jamie Flanagan (15:16):
Okay, good.
Randy Roberts (15:18):
Excuse me.
I had I'd written another bookon Joe Lewis as well, so I kind
of covered the full range inprofessional golf in 1952.
He was invited to uh uh play ina San Diego Open, uh in uh
under the auspices of the PGA,although he was an amateur, he
(15:39):
was invited to play in it.
And when a guy by name Hortoncame down, who was the head of
the PGA, said, No, you can'tplay.
And Joe Lewis called all of hishis friends in the media,
Walter Winchel, Jimmy Cannon,people that knew Joe well, and
they taught and Joe Lewis said,Look, I I I was part of the
(16:00):
fight against Hitler.
Okay, I don't want moreHitlerism in the United States.
And Winchel and Cannon and theothers said the same thing, and
so an exemption was made for JoeLewis to kind of break the
color barrier in the PGA byplaying in the San Diego Open as
an amateur, right?
Jamie Flanagan (16:18):
So, and then he kind of that was kind of
breaking the color barrier in inprofessional golf.
He's kind of credited for forbreaking that barrier, yes.
From what I understand, it itit was that that and and it all
ties in with you know anotherbreaking the barrier with uh
Jackie Robinson, right?
Randy Roberts (16:38):
Right, and Joe Lewis helped Jackie Robinson get
into officer candidate schoolin World War II.
They became very close friendsin World War II, Jackie Robinson
and and Joe Lewis.
Jamie Flanagan (16:51):
Do you have any stories in here about the the
two of them in the in the bookas well?
And how in their call?
Randy Roberts (16:55):
Oh, yes.
Okay, yeah, yes.
As a matter of fact, towardsthe end, after after he
integrated baseball, Joe JackieRobinson said, I could not have
integrated baseball without JoeLewis.
That's Joe Lewis was his model.
And they were both at FortRiley, Kansas together.
Jamie Flanagan (17:13):
So is there anybody, was there uh a military
leader that was instrumental inin helping Joe while he was in
the military?
Who's who was he was his mainliaison, or not really liaison,
but you know, person that heworked with?
Randy Roberts (17:29):
He worked a lot with a guy by name out of
Chicago named Truman Gibson, whowas who was uh special
assistant for African for NegroAffairs, they called it at the
time, for the United StatesArmy.
And so Truman Gibson, who wasblack, worked with Joe Lewis.
And when when Joe would seesomething was completely out of
(17:49):
range, that it was just notright, he would oftentimes call
Truman Gibson, and sometimesTruman Gibson could cure the
problem.
Truman Gibson also wasinstrumental in getting Jackie
Robinson into officer candidateschool at Fort Riley.
Jamie Flanagan (18:05):
Right on.
All right.
So how did where what's nextfor what's next for you, right?
You said you wrote another bookabout Joe.
What did the other book aboutJoe in encapsulate?
Randy Roberts (18:16):
Well, you know, it concentrated, although it
dealt a little in World War II,it concentrated on his early on
his on his main career, whichwas in the 1930s, you know, with
Schmelling and through sincetax problems, and it's just kind
of a more full biography.
Jamie Flanagan (18:35):
Right, right, right.
So the fights during World WarII, these were more exhibition
fights.
They weren't, were they whatwere the what were the caliber
of the of the things that Joewas doing during his enlistment?
Randy Roberts (18:47):
Well, he he fought two fights for the United
States Navy and Army.
He fought a fight for the NavyRelief Fund in 1942, and then he
fought one for the Army ReliefFund.
So and he he donated his entirepurse.
I mean, who's who's ever heardof that?
Where a heavyweight championfights it defends his title,
(19:09):
risks his title, and gives hisentire purse to the United
States Army or the United StatesNavy.
So he fought those.
Then in he had a boxing troupethat would travel hundreds of
places in the United States andEurope, and there he just put on
exhibitions.
He just fought with a starsparring partner, okay.
Guy by the name of Nicholson.
(19:29):
I can't I can't imagine whatNicholson's life was like
fighting Joe Lewis and dyingnight after night after night.
He's you know, after a while,he he had to take some time off,
you know.
Because you know, one thingabout boxing, when you box,
you're bound to get hit in theface.
Okay, you're gonna get hitmultiple times, and poor
Nicholson.
(19:50):
Uh he long suffering.
And sure, Ray Robinson was inthat, like I said, in that troop
too.
Jamie Flanagan (19:57):
Wow.
All right.
That it's quite quite theadventure that he had.
It's it's very interesting.
And then his work there with inWorld War II and all the work
that he did and the money thathe helped raise and the
awareness that he raised, andthen the barriers he broke down,
ultimately led to him beingable to be buried, well, him
(20:20):
being buried in in Arlington,right?
Randy Roberts (20:22):
So Right Ronald Reagan gave him the exemption to
be buried in Arlington.
Jamie Flanagan (20:27):
Yeah, so what why who gets to be buried in?
Do you know the story on that?
Who gets to be buried there andwhy he had the what exemption
they had to give him?
Randy Roberts (20:34):
Well, service man, but uh for usually you
won't bury a sergeant there, uh,but but he Ronald Reagan was a
great admirer.
As a matter of fact, there wasa movie, This is a This Is the
Army, was made.
It was the most popular movie,the most widely seen movie in
World War II.
(20:54):
And Joe Lewis played aninstrumental role in it, and so
did the main character wasRonald Reagan.
So they they were in the samefilm together.
Jamie Flanagan (21:03):
Oh my goodness! All right, I just all the time
it's I talk about Reagan.
He was in the fraternity I wasin, but just back to the future.
Who was the president?
Ronald Reagan?
The actor.
It's like that's my favoritebit.
All right, excellent.
So this the book is out, right?
It came out mid-October.
It's out.
Where can people where canpeople find it?
Randy Roberts (21:25):
Well, they can find it in most bookstores, or
at least I hope they can find itin most bookstores now, but
also of course, Amazon.com andany of the places online that
you buy books.
Jamie Flanagan (21:36):
All right, so who's the who is the book for?
Do you need to be a boxing fan?
Do you need to be a Joe Lewisfan?
Who do you who is this bookfor?
Randy Roberts (21:45):
I think it's for a person that likes boxing, but
also likes likes politics, thathas that's interested in World
War II.
You know, to me, World War Iteach World War II.
It's my favorite class toteach.
And if you're interested inkind of the combination of
sports and world war two, thisis this is a book for you.
And also kind of uh the aperson with a tremendous amount
(22:09):
of dignity that does a greatdeal for America during the war,
and a person that some peoplelook at as Joe Lewis didn't say
anything.
You know, if you're raised likeI was in the 1960s, you know,
that was the age of MuhammadAli, who was a very different
character than Joe Lewis, buteach in their own way, made
terrific uh strides for theirown people.
Jamie Flanagan (22:33):
So that and that's kind of that's what I
started out with that Joe was avery complex and multifaceted
person, and yet very simple.
He was just a dude that wantedto box and excel in boxing,
right?
And just the fact that he wasblack was just like, okay, I'm
just a boxer and I want tofight, you're right, and I want
(22:55):
to do well, and and all thoseother things I think came to
him.
I don't think he went activelylooking for it so much as as
just you know, him as a personuh pushed through it and it it
it happened for him, right?
So hard at his craft, yeah.
Randy Roberts (23:12):
And world war two is where he finds his political
voice, where he stands up, hestands up for causes, he
supports America, but hesupports his own people.
I mean, he he has to treat hehas to be both an American and
an African American, all right.
Uh which was a pretty hard lineto walk in the 1940s in World
(23:33):
War II, because the army wassegregated.
You know, we hadn't ourStimson, the Secretary of War,
at the very beginning said thearmy will not fight with an
integrated army.
Jamie Flanagan (23:46):
Amazing.
Amazing.
So yeah, so Detroit has sometributes to Joe.
There's right downtown Detroiton the main drag there on
Jefferson.
This is the big fist, y'all seeit all the time, and whenever
there's a major sporting eventin the TV, they do cutaways to
that.
But there's a brand new,there's a thing called the
DeQinder Cut, and there's likesome rail lines that uh are
(24:09):
defunct, and they turned theminto pathways in the city, green
spaces, and they're very, verycool.
And in one of them, they weredoing a tribute to Joe because
they we had a whole arena, JoeLewis Arena, where our Red Wings
used to play, and they they uhin concerts would happen in
there, they they tore it down,right?
They got rid of Joe LewisArena, now it's like condos or
(24:29):
something, but it was Joe LewisArena for forever, and so they
were looking to do anothertribute to Joe because the you
know JLA went away.
And it's very cool in the DeQuinter Cut they put up uh a
statue for Joe, but this statuedepicts him as a golfer.
Randy Roberts (24:43):
Oh, I'd like to see that.
Yeah, it's an interestingstory.
You you talked about Joe Lewisbourbon, you know, there in
World War uh in the 30s and 40s,there was a Joe Lewis Punch
that was named after him, andwhen he was out kind of trying
to get people to buy it,somebody asked him, a reporter
asked him, Joe, what's yourfavorite drink?
And they thought he'd say JoeLewis Punch, and Joe Lewis said,
(25:06):
I'm a Coca-Cola man myself.
Jamie Flanagan (25:09):
Joe, you don't know anything about marketing,
do you?
Wide open, spiking over thenet.
Oh my god, yeah.
So but Joe Lewis Bourbon, yes,he did in his lifetime have a
Joe Lewis bourbon.
And and the it just it it justcame and went and it didn't
really go anywhere.
And then they did a relaunch acouple years ago, and that
(25:31):
bottle with the with the the youknow the the verse crowd in the
background, it was one of myfavorite bottles on the shelf.
I was like sad to see that onego when I emptied out.
It's uh have you ever had youseen the Joe Lewis bourbon?
Randy Roberts (25:44):
I haven't.
I haven't, but I will I wouldbe look forward to drinking a
glass.
Jamie Flanagan (25:48):
Yeah, yeah.
Very corn forward.
It's uh like 70, 80 percentcorn mash.
Where's it made?
Randy Roberts (25:53):
Is it made down in uh Kentucky or Tennessee?
Jamie Flanagan (25:56):
Tennessee, but it's a part of Tennessee that's
it, it's actually before statelines were redrawn.
It was actually the part ofTennessee, like right in the the
the part there that wasKentucky at one point.
So it's that limestone water,that's uh nice water.
It's it's a it's a it's a it'sa fair bourbon.
It's uh it's it's nice, it's alittle hard to find.
I I think it might be goingaway again.
(26:17):
But I'm glad I got one on theshelf because it's a it's a it's
a very cool package and it'sit's a very cool bottle.
Randy Roberts (26:22):
Well, I certainly want to get one.
Jamie Flanagan (26:24):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Well, Randy, I I I appreciate Iknow we uh played a little
phone tag basically trying toconnect and get on here.
I'm glad I'm glad we had aminute to talk about uh about
your book and then because weare just we are just massive,
massive fans of uh of Joe.
So I invite people.
Is there a website that peoplecan go to?
(26:45):
Do you guys have a website foryour books or just Amazon and
search your name and your yourcome up?
Randy Roberts (26:50):
I say yeah, Amazon.
Jamie Flanagan (26:52):
All right, so you just Randy Roberts and that
uh Joe Lewis boxing books andall your other books.
How many books do you have?
Oh, I don't know about 30.
Holy smokes, publisher parish,right?
Randy Roberts (27:05):
I'm getting old.
I'm getting old.
Jamie Flanagan (27:10):
All right, so Randy, I appreciate the time
this evening.
And anything else we need toadd?
Anything, did I miss anything?
Randy Roberts (27:17):
Uh well, you know, what uh sadly what in
Detroit was one of the worstright race race riots during
World War II was in Detroit.
Jamie Flanagan (27:25):
Yep.
Randy Roberts (27:26):
And right in Joe Lewis's old neighborhood.
Jamie Flanagan (27:30):
The the black bottom, yeah.
Yeah, uh the that area.
Yeah, that was they're lookingto to revitalize that uh because
they they they destroyed thatarea to put in a freeway.
And so they're looking atreconfiguring our freeways
downtown, and because the partthat's there is kind of
unnecessary, they feel.
And so they're gonna they wantto revitalize and bring back
(27:51):
that neighborhood, but tosomething better and different,
but kind of with a homage towhere it was and what it was
when it was when it was great,when it was a great, culturally
diverse, you know, black, youknow, and really rich and
vibrant neighborhood.
So they're looking to do that.
So I hope that comes together.
That's uh be a cool project forour city.
(28:12):
And and and Randy, this is acool book again.
Thank you for being with us.
Randy Roberts (28:16):
I appreciate it.
Great time.
Jamie Flanagan (28:18):
All right, thanks a lot.
And everybody like, subscribe,leave a comment, all those
podcast things and all thepodcast places.
We do appreciate you joiningus, Chris.
And the other folks connectingwith us there.
We thank you for for being withus and Detroit City of
Champions, Detroit City ofChampions.com.
Thanks so much, and we'll seeyou all again very, very soon.
1935.
The Lions win the NFLChampionship.
The Detroit Tigers take theworld series.
The Red Wings bring home LordStanley's Cup.
Joe Lewis begins his rise toworld domination.
This transforms the motor cityinto Detroit City of Champions.
And there you go with the crackof the bat.
(00:25):
We are back with anotherepisode of Detroit City of
Champions, Jamie Fly It Solo.
What I'm going to ask you to doright now, we appreciate
everybody who joins us on thisjourney through these amazing,
amazing stories.
And I ask that you do somethingright now is just simply like,
subscribe, leave a comment, doall those podcast things in all
those podcast places.
(00:46):
We truly, genuinely appreciateit.
Uh the time you spend with us.
And if you've enjoyed it, uhshare it with a friend.
That's all.
That's all Charles and I askyou to do.
And tonight, though, talkingabout stories, and and we did,
we'll put it, we'll link themdown in the description.
We did the whole series on onJoe Lewis, which is interesting
(01:07):
because Joe Lewis, all thechampions in in 1935, right?
The the Lions, the Tigers, thewhat Red Wings all won their
first championships, plus 30other champions, all in Detroit,
all in 35, and Joe Lewis wasn'tone.
And we go through that wholestory, but uh we did contend and
we did argue that Joe Lewis hadthe greatest season of any
(01:30):
individual season of anyindividual athlete ever, bar
none.
And I think we made that casepretty decisively.
And Joe Lewis is a it was avery multifaceted individual,
and yet he was a boxer, and thatwas he was very single-minded
and single single-focused.
And Johnny Smith and RandyRoberts were diving into the
(01:53):
simplicity, complexity uh of theman and their book, The Fight
of His Life, Joe Lewis, Battlefor Freedom During World War II.
And we got some interestingstuff to share, and we're gonna
bring on the author of thatbook, Randy Roberts.
Randy, welcome to Detroit Cityof Champions.
Randy Roberts (02:10):
Hi, thanks a lot, Jamie.
Jamie, he 35 was a great yearfor Lewis.
I mean, you know, he beat PrimoCanarin 35, he beat Max Bear in
35.
Oh, yeah, two two worldchampions in 35.
Oh, yeah, but he just it wasn'tshorter, I think, was 35.
Jamie Flanagan (02:28):
The championship.
I mean, his career that's theyear his career uh bolstered and
grew, and and and yeah, he diddecidedly have the best season
of any individual athlete ever,but it wasn't for the
championship.
No, no, darn it, Max Bear, yougoofball, yeah, you Cinderella
man losing goofball.
Yeah, so but Randy, before weget into this, tell me about
(02:51):
your childhood.
My childhood, yeah.
Tell me a little bit about you.
Randy Roberts (02:55):
Uh yeah, I I I was born in the Pittsburgh area.
Oh, okay, right.
A lot like Detroit, yeah, andyou know, became interested in
boxing at a very young age,mostly interested in the history
of boxing, more interested inthe history of boxing than the
sport, than actually boxing.
But and I became interested inwhen went good.
Then I went to college and didmy graduate work, PhD work at
(03:20):
LSU, which was a good time ifyou like college football.
And since then I've beenteaching, I've been since 1988,
I've been teaching at PurdueUniversity, mostly courses on
World War II and sport history.
Jamie Flanagan (03:34):
All right, all right.
And so what was Johnny Smith?
How did you guys hook up?
And what was the what was theprecipice for diving into this
book?
Randy Roberts (03:45):
Johnny and I have that's our fourth book
together.
Initially, yeah, initially wewere uh Johnny was one of my PhD
students, and but you know,he's not a student anymore.
Uh he's an accomplished author,and we we did our first book we
did was on Muhammad Ali andMalcolm X, all right, which was
(04:05):
a good book to uh uh to do.
Then we did one on World WarOne and some Babe Ruth and some
other uh characters in World WarOne, and also one on Mickey
Mantle, that's our fourth book.
Jamie Flanagan (04:17):
Oh, Mickey.
That's that's not a problematicindividual at all, there.
Randy Roberts (04:22):
No, no, nothing problematic about the men.
Jamie Flanagan (04:28):
Yikes.
Sometimes people don't know allthe history, and that's why
professors of history uh areimportant to shed the light.
Randy Roberts (04:37):
Sometimes Mickey Meandle, it's best to not know
the full story, you know.
Jamie Flanagan (04:40):
And it's it's like today, there's so many
people like you know, you youthrew out like you know, Bill
Cosby and Puff Daddy, and it'sit's you know, Art Kelly is I as
a D I DJ stuff too, and it'slike, do you play the music or
like I teach a broadcast classin high school?
You know, do you not show BillCosby?
Because it was that was likethat was like the pivotal black
comedy changing things.
(05:01):
So, you know, where do youseparate the art and the artist
again with somebody like MickeyMantley?
I mean, you gotta you guesssometimes you gotta peel those
layers back and and tell thefull story, but does that negate
everything else, right?
Randy Roberts (05:13):
Yeah, well, I I don't think Mickey was trying
quite in the R.
Kelly category.
Jamie Flanagan (05:17):
No, no, I know, you know, but uh, you know, Pete
Rose, right?
Pete Rose, should he be in theHall of Fame?
I mean, Pete Rose was anotherproblematic.
Uh has he got a Pete Rose bookon the horizon?
Randy Roberts (05:27):
No, I don't, but I could tell you a cool story
about Pete Rose.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Go ahead.
Okay, a friend of minegraduated from Yale, and he has
a PhD, his gra his PhD when hegraduated, and he had Pete Rose
sign it at one of the signings.
I don't know, a hundreddollars, whatever Pete Rose.
Yeah, signed his PhD, and nowalso signing that PhD was the
(05:53):
president of the Yale at thetime.
All right, Bart Giamatti.
So he's got Bart Giamatti andPete Rose signed the same
document.
Jamie Flanagan (06:04):
Oh boy, oh boy, that's very interesting.
All right, but we're talkingabout Joe Lewis in your book,
The Fight of His Life.
It it's interesting about Joe,and there was like how I was
name-dropping earlier before wewent live, and Jojo, his son Joe
Lewis Barrow Jr.
the third, right?
(06:24):
Because he named all his likehe named all his kids Joe Lewis.
So JoJo was in town launchingJoe Lewis Southern Kitchen, and
he brought us down for the grandopening of that Jojo there, and
it was fun.
But they had also prior priorto that, and how I connected
with Jojo was that I do anotherpodcast, The Man Cave Happy
Hour, which is all aboutbourbons, whiskies, cocktails,
(06:45):
spirits.
And like right before COVID,they or right during COVID, they
launched Joe Lewis bourbon,right?
So the family, because thefamily is very, very, very, very
tight with the the Joe Lewisname, and they don't let just
anybody do anything.
And and so they did the JoeLewis bourbon and they were
very, very careful abouteverything and the packaging,
(07:08):
and they did this really coolthing.
And in the background, so youhad the label on the front, and
you had your label on the back,and the back of the label on the
back had a they wanted apicture of like you know, up
front on the label is Joe, andthen in the background they had
like a crowd from one of hisfights, but most of the fights
were fairly segregated, so itwas either all white folk or all
black folk in most of thepictures because it was pretty
(07:30):
segregated.
And the only fights that werelike really not segregated were
the ones during World War II andthe fights that he did and the
exhibitions that he did, becauseall the servicemen were just
servicemen and they were alljust there together, and so
that's finally how they settledon the picture for the back is
because you know it was a mixedcrowd, they wanted it, they
(07:50):
wanted a diverse crowd, and itwas really hard to find a photo
of it of a diverse crowd, and sothat's what you're talking
about.
So, walk me through the book.
What are people uh what's thestory that you tell about Joe in
the fight of his life?
Randy Roberts (08:06):
The story we tell is one that really hadn't been
told to the extent that we did,and it was about Joe Lewis in
World War II.
It's about Joe Lewis findinghis voice politically and
opposing Jim Crow and opposingsegregation in the in the United
States Army, but at the sametime acting as a symbol of unity
(08:28):
in America.
Jamie Flanagan (08:31):
So with the sources that you went to, who
were you able to talk to aboutthis?
Randy Roberts (08:37):
Well, there's not many people left around to talk
to about Joe Lewis.
Jamie Flanagan (08:41):
Yeah, there's not many World War II guys left
for sure.
Randy Roberts (08:44):
We talked to his son who was born in World War
II, right?
Jamie Flanagan (08:47):
Right.
The older son, yeah.
Randy Roberts (08:48):
And but he but you know, he didn't have much
memory memories of his father atan early age.
He did at a later age.
But what we did is uh, youknow, we went through tons of
newspaper files, just thousandsof different newspaper articles,
government documents,department of the army
documents, department of statedocuments, you know, followed
(09:11):
him overseas in his tours ofEngland and and and Italy
mostly, and just and just wenton to the army bases with him,
the where he faceddiscrimination and what he did,
what he did for the government,what he did for America as a
symbol of democracy and andrepublicanism during World War
(09:35):
II.
Of course, you know, he hebecame famous.
His most famous fight was in1938, June 22nd, 1938, when he
fought Max Schmelling, right?
The Nazi hero and knocked himout in one round.
So after that, Joe Lewis was anatural to represent America and
its fight against Nazism.
Jamie Flanagan (09:59):
So what's uh what is one of the interesting
tidbits?
What's one of the interestingstories in in here that you
uncovered in your research?
What's something that uh isgonna surprise me as I as I get
into this?
Randy Roberts (10:10):
Well, there's a number of stories.
Uh yeah, an interesting onetakes place at Camp Sybert in
Alabama, where Joe Lewis wasgoing to go into town with Sugar
A.
Robinson.
Sugar A.
Robinson, the great fighter,was uh a friend of Joe Lewis and
was in on Joe Lewis's boxingtroupe that he took around to
various bases.
And they were going to go intotown, and there was only one bus
(10:35):
for black soldiers and two forwhite soldiers.
And it was they were waiting along time, and they went over
and to to the to to the whiteside because to call a taxi.
The taxi was on the white side,so they called a taxi and then
sat down to wait.
And it's an MP came up to JoeLewis and said, You can't sit
(10:59):
here.
You're in a white section.
And Joe Lewis said, This is asegregated base.
I can sit here.
No, you can't.
And before you know it, theywere wrestling around.
Joe Lewis was was was a wastaken to the MP, was taken to
the uh prison, not prison, but akind of a local jail, just kind
of didn't put him in jail, wassent to see the commanding
(11:21):
officer and it became a but JoeLewis held his ground.
He said, no, this is this is wemay not have a segregated army,
but the bases are segregatedthat I can the I can go on
whatever bus I want.
I don't have to follow the JimCrow laws.
Jamie Flanagan (11:37):
Right.
Wow.
I did that that story I had notI had not heard before.
Randy Roberts (11:43):
So and also segregated bases, the bases were
not segregated overseas, right?
But there was de factosegregation.
So where black soldiers wouldgo to the white say bars, the
white officer would say, no,you're not allowed here.
Or or if if they allowed blacksoldiers into it, the bars were
(12:05):
disc uh continued for all whitesoldiers.
So he faced terriblediscrimination overseas as well.
Jamie Flanagan (12:14):
Wow.
Wow, wow, wow, wow.
So what do you think?
Because you said you you'reyou're uh an advocate of boxing
history.
So now am I getting the nameright?
Jack Johnson, right?
Yes.
Uh so what do you think therole because Jack Johnson was
kind of uh a very flamboyant,very outgoing, and and it would
(12:34):
that was like the the the 20sand earlier, right?
Teens in the teens, yeah.
So it and and and his behavior,you know, even was uh shocking
for the the racial divide at thetime.
Uh what do you think?
J his Jack Johnson's uhexistence and and and his
behavior impacted Joe and andand his his ability to be a
(12:58):
boxer.
Randy Roberts (12:59):
Jack Johnson was his own man, lived a fast life.
You know, there's a the storythat Jack Johnson was going
through some section of the JimCrow South, and he was he always
went too fast.
He was driving fast, and he wasstopped by a white sheriff, and
the white sheriff said, Youknow, you're going you're
passing exceeding the speedlimit, boy.
(13:19):
He said, Yeah, I suppose I was.
And and he said, Well, it'sgonna cost you, and Jack Johnson
said, How much?
And the sheriff said, $50.
And Jack Johnson pulled a bigroll out of his pocket and
peeled off a hundred dollar billand gave it to him.
And it and the and the copsaid, I can't change a
hundred-dollar bill.
And Jack Johnson said, Keep thechains, I'm coming back the
(13:41):
same way as I went through.
But that was Jack Johnson.
Sure.
Jack Johnson was the fast life.
He he he did what he wanted, hemarried white women.
Joe Lewis was consciouslydeveloped into the anti-Jack
Johnson.
You know, America, after JackJohnson lost the title, it won't
(14:02):
be until Joe Lewis that untilanother black man gets a chance
to fight for the title.
So Jack Johnson would becamethe antithesis of Joe Lewis.
Joe Lewis's manager,particularly John Roxbury, made
sure that Joe Lewis never wasseen in the company of white
women, that he was alwayssoft-spoken, that he was not
outspoken, that he did not drivedepart opponents.
(14:26):
Everything that that thatJohnson did, Lewis didn't do.
Jamie Flanagan (14:31):
Right.
So that's the thing.
So it made it even more of achallenge for Joe, I believe, to
to to get his leg up and andand and do the amazing things
that he did.
It just facing facing thosechallenges ahead of time.
So through the 30s and the 40s,this book kind of focuses on
that time frame.
Randy Roberts (14:52):
Yes, yes, from the late 30s uh to the early
50s.
Jamie Flanagan (14:57):
After that, right?
I wanted to talk about uh whatcame after boxing and after his
service.
Do you did you dive into thatat all?
Have you I mean not necessarilyfor the book, but the movements
and uh especially the into uhprofessional golf?
Randy Roberts (15:12):
Yeah, I uh we have we we deal with that in the
book.
Jamie Flanagan (15:16):
Okay, good.
Randy Roberts (15:18):
Excuse me.
I had I'd written another bookon Joe Lewis as well, so I kind
of covered the full range inprofessional golf in 1952.
He was invited to uh uh play ina San Diego Open, uh in uh
under the auspices of the PGA,although he was an amateur, he
(15:39):
was invited to play in it.
And when a guy by name Hortoncame down, who was the head of
the PGA, said, No, you can'tplay.
And Joe Lewis called all of hishis friends in the media,
Walter Winchel, Jimmy Cannon,people that knew Joe well, and
they taught and Joe Lewis said,Look, I I I was part of the
(16:00):
fight against Hitler.
Okay, I don't want moreHitlerism in the United States.
And Winchel and Cannon and theothers said the same thing, and
so an exemption was made for JoeLewis to kind of break the
color barrier in the PGA byplaying in the San Diego Open as
an amateur, right?
Jamie Flanagan (16:18):
So, and then he kind of that was kind of
breaking the color barrier in inprofessional golf.
He's kind of credited for forbreaking that barrier, yes.
From what I understand, it itit was that that and and it all
ties in with you know anotherbreaking the barrier with uh
Jackie Robinson, right?
Randy Roberts (16:38):
Right, and Joe Lewis helped Jackie Robinson get
into officer candidate schoolin World War II.
They became very close friendsin World War II, Jackie Robinson
and and Joe Lewis.
Jamie Flanagan (16:51):
Do you have any stories in here about the the
two of them in the in the bookas well?
And how in their call?
Randy Roberts (16:55):
Oh, yes.
Okay, yeah, yes.
As a matter of fact, towardsthe end, after after he
integrated baseball, Joe JackieRobinson said, I could not have
integrated baseball without JoeLewis.
That's Joe Lewis was his model.
And they were both at FortRiley, Kansas together.
Jamie Flanagan (17:13):
So is there anybody, was there uh a military
leader that was instrumental inin helping Joe while he was in
the military?
Who's who was he was his mainliaison, or not really liaison,
but you know, person that heworked with?
Randy Roberts (17:29):
He worked a lot with a guy by name out of
Chicago named Truman Gibson, whowas who was uh special
assistant for African for NegroAffairs, they called it at the
time, for the United StatesArmy.
And so Truman Gibson, who wasblack, worked with Joe Lewis.
And when when Joe would seesomething was completely out of
(17:49):
range, that it was just notright, he would oftentimes call
Truman Gibson, and sometimesTruman Gibson could cure the
problem.
Truman Gibson also wasinstrumental in getting Jackie
Robinson into officer candidateschool at Fort Riley.
Jamie Flanagan (18:05):
Right on.
All right.
So how did where what's nextfor what's next for you, right?
You said you wrote another bookabout Joe.
What did the other book aboutJoe in encapsulate?
Randy Roberts (18:16):
Well, you know, it concentrated, although it
dealt a little in World War II,it concentrated on his early on
his on his main career, whichwas in the 1930s, you know, with
Schmelling and through sincetax problems, and it's just kind
of a more full biography.
Jamie Flanagan (18:35):
Right, right, right.
So the fights during World WarII, these were more exhibition
fights.
They weren't, were they whatwere the what were the caliber
of the of the things that Joewas doing during his enlistment?
Randy Roberts (18:47):
Well, he he fought two fights for the United
States Navy and Army.
He fought a fight for the NavyRelief Fund in 1942, and then he
fought one for the Army ReliefFund.
So and he he donated his entirepurse.
I mean, who's who's ever heardof that?
Where a heavyweight championfights it defends his title,
(19:09):
risks his title, and gives hisentire purse to the United
States Army or the United StatesNavy.
So he fought those.
Then in he had a boxing troupethat would travel hundreds of
places in the United States andEurope, and there he just put on
exhibitions.
He just fought with a starsparring partner, okay.
Guy by the name of Nicholson.
(19:29):
I can't I can't imagine whatNicholson's life was like
fighting Joe Lewis and dyingnight after night after night.
He's you know, after a while,he he had to take some time off,
you know.
Because you know, one thingabout boxing, when you box,
you're bound to get hit in theface.
Okay, you're gonna get hitmultiple times, and poor
Nicholson.
(19:50):
Uh he long suffering.
And sure, Ray Robinson was inthat, like I said, in that troop
too.
Jamie Flanagan (19:57):
Wow.
All right.
That it's quite quite theadventure that he had.
It's it's very interesting.
And then his work there with inWorld War II and all the work
that he did and the money thathe helped raise and the
awareness that he raised, andthen the barriers he broke down,
ultimately led to him beingable to be buried, well, him
(20:20):
being buried in in Arlington,right?
Randy Roberts (20:22):
So Right Ronald Reagan gave him the exemption to
be buried in Arlington.
Jamie Flanagan (20:27):
Yeah, so what why who gets to be buried in?
Do you know the story on that?
Who gets to be buried there andwhy he had the what exemption
they had to give him?
Randy Roberts (20:34):
Well, service man, but uh for usually you
won't bury a sergeant there, uh,but but he Ronald Reagan was a
great admirer.
As a matter of fact, there wasa movie, This is a This Is the
Army, was made.
It was the most popular movie,the most widely seen movie in
World War II.
(20:54):
And Joe Lewis played aninstrumental role in it, and so
did the main character wasRonald Reagan.
So they they were in the samefilm together.
Jamie Flanagan (21:03):
Oh my goodness! All right, I just all the time
it's I talk about Reagan.
He was in the fraternity I wasin, but just back to the future.
Who was the president?
Ronald Reagan?
The actor.
It's like that's my favoritebit.
All right, excellent.
So this the book is out, right?
It came out mid-October.
It's out.
Where can people where canpeople find it?
Randy Roberts (21:25):
Well, they can find it in most bookstores, or
at least I hope they can find itin most bookstores now, but
also of course, Amazon.com andany of the places online that
you buy books.
Jamie Flanagan (21:36):
All right, so who's the who is the book for?
Do you need to be a boxing fan?
Do you need to be a Joe Lewisfan?
Who do you who is this bookfor?
Randy Roberts (21:45):
I think it's for a person that likes boxing, but
also likes likes politics, thathas that's interested in World
War II.
You know, to me, World War Iteach World War II.
It's my favorite class toteach.
And if you're interested inkind of the combination of
sports and world war two, thisis this is a book for you.
And also kind of uh the aperson with a tremendous amount
(22:09):
of dignity that does a greatdeal for America during the war,
and a person that some peoplelook at as Joe Lewis didn't say
anything.
You know, if you're raised likeI was in the 1960s, you know,
that was the age of MuhammadAli, who was a very different
character than Joe Lewis, buteach in their own way, made
terrific uh strides for theirown people.
Jamie Flanagan (22:33):
So that and that's kind of that's what I
started out with that Joe was avery complex and multifaceted
person, and yet very simple.
He was just a dude that wantedto box and excel in boxing,
right?
And just the fact that he wasblack was just like, okay, I'm
just a boxer and I want tofight, you're right, and I want
(22:55):
to do well, and and all thoseother things I think came to
him.
I don't think he went activelylooking for it so much as as
just you know, him as a personuh pushed through it and it it
it happened for him, right?
So hard at his craft, yeah.
Randy Roberts (23:12):
And world war two is where he finds his political
voice, where he stands up, hestands up for causes, he
supports America, but hesupports his own people.
I mean, he he has to treat hehas to be both an American and
an African American, all right.
Uh which was a pretty hard lineto walk in the 1940s in World
(23:33):
War II, because the army wassegregated.
You know, we hadn't ourStimson, the Secretary of War,
at the very beginning said thearmy will not fight with an
integrated army.
Jamie Flanagan (23:46):
Amazing.
Amazing.
So yeah, so Detroit has sometributes to Joe.
There's right downtown Detroiton the main drag there on
Jefferson.
This is the big fist, y'all seeit all the time, and whenever
there's a major sporting eventin the TV, they do cutaways to
that.
But there's a brand new,there's a thing called the
DeQinder Cut, and there's likesome rail lines that uh are
(24:09):
defunct, and they turned theminto pathways in the city, green
spaces, and they're very, verycool.
And in one of them, they weredoing a tribute to Joe because
they we had a whole arena, JoeLewis Arena, where our Red Wings
used to play, and they they uhin concerts would happen in
there, they they tore it down,right?
They got rid of Joe LewisArena, now it's like condos or
(24:29):
something, but it was Joe LewisArena for forever, and so they
were looking to do anothertribute to Joe because the you
know JLA went away.
And it's very cool in the DeQuinter Cut they put up uh a
statue for Joe, but this statuedepicts him as a golfer.
Randy Roberts (24:43):
Oh, I'd like to see that.
Yeah, it's an interestingstory.
You you talked about Joe Lewisbourbon, you know, there in
World War uh in the 30s and 40s,there was a Joe Lewis Punch
that was named after him, andwhen he was out kind of trying
to get people to buy it,somebody asked him, a reporter
asked him, Joe, what's yourfavorite drink?
And they thought he'd say JoeLewis Punch, and Joe Lewis said,
(25:06):
I'm a Coca-Cola man myself.
Jamie Flanagan (25:09):
Joe, you don't know anything about marketing,
do you?
Wide open, spiking over thenet.
Oh my god, yeah.
So but Joe Lewis Bourbon, yes,he did in his lifetime have a
Joe Lewis bourbon.
And and the it just it it justcame and went and it didn't
really go anywhere.
And then they did a relaunch acouple years ago, and that
(25:31):
bottle with the with the the youknow the the verse crowd in the
background, it was one of myfavorite bottles on the shelf.
I was like sad to see that onego when I emptied out.
It's uh have you ever had youseen the Joe Lewis bourbon?
Randy Roberts (25:44):
I haven't.
I haven't, but I will I wouldbe look forward to drinking a
glass.
Jamie Flanagan (25:48):
Yeah, yeah.
Very corn forward.
It's uh like 70, 80 percentcorn mash.
Where's it made?
Randy Roberts (25:53):
Is it made down in uh Kentucky or Tennessee?
Jamie Flanagan (25:56):
Tennessee, but it's a part of Tennessee that's
it, it's actually before statelines were redrawn.
It was actually the part ofTennessee, like right in the the
the part there that wasKentucky at one point.
So it's that limestone water,that's uh nice water.
It's it's a it's a it's a it'sa fair bourbon.
It's uh it's it's nice, it's alittle hard to find.
I I think it might be goingaway again.
(26:17):
But I'm glad I got one on theshelf because it's a it's a it's
a very cool package and it'sit's a very cool bottle.
Randy Roberts (26:22):
Well, I certainly want to get one.
Jamie Flanagan (26:24):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Well, Randy, I I I appreciate Iknow we uh played a little
phone tag basically trying toconnect and get on here.
I'm glad I'm glad we had aminute to talk about uh about
your book and then because weare just we are just massive,
massive fans of uh of Joe.
So I invite people.
Is there a website that peoplecan go to?
(26:45):
Do you guys have a website foryour books or just Amazon and
search your name and your yourcome up?
Randy Roberts (26:50):
I say yeah, Amazon.
Jamie Flanagan (26:52):
All right, so you just Randy Roberts and that
uh Joe Lewis boxing books andall your other books.
How many books do you have?
Oh, I don't know about 30.
Holy smokes, publisher parish,right?
Randy Roberts (27:05):
I'm getting old.
I'm getting old.
Jamie Flanagan (27:10):
All right, so Randy, I appreciate the time
this evening.
And anything else we need toadd?
Anything, did I miss anything?
Randy Roberts (27:17):
Uh well, you know, what uh sadly what in
Detroit was one of the worstright race race riots during
World War II was in Detroit.
Jamie Flanagan (27:25):
Yep.
Randy Roberts (27:26):
And right in Joe Lewis's old neighborhood.
Jamie Flanagan (27:30):
The the black bottom, yeah.
Yeah, uh the that area.
Yeah, that was they're lookingto to revitalize that uh because
they they they destroyed thatarea to put in a freeway.
And so they're looking atreconfiguring our freeways
downtown, and because the partthat's there is kind of
unnecessary, they feel.
And so they're gonna they wantto revitalize and bring back
(27:51):
that neighborhood, but tosomething better and different,
but kind of with a homage towhere it was and what it was
when it was when it was great,when it was a great, culturally
diverse, you know, black, youknow, and really rich and
vibrant neighborhood.
So they're looking to do that.
So I hope that comes together.
That's uh be a cool project forour city.
(28:12):
And and and Randy, this is acool book again.
Thank you for being with us.
Randy Roberts (28:16):
I appreciate it.
Great time.
Jamie Flanagan (28:18):
All right, thanks a lot.
And everybody like, subscribe,leave a comment, all those
podcast things and all thepodcast places.
We do appreciate you joiningus, Chris.
And the other folks connectingwith us there.
We thank you for for being withus and Detroit City of
Champions, Detroit City ofChampions.com.
Thanks so much, and we'll seeyou all again very, very soon.
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