Unlocking the Venture Capital Puzzle: A Chat with Michael Langer

I got the opportunity to talk to Michael Langer, a well-known venture capitalist and investor in the biotech and health care industry, who is also the son of Moderna cofounder, Dr. Robert Langer. 
We talked about the investments he made, family investments, how to start a VC firm, challenges of the VC firm, and popular biotech trends.
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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Yeah, pretty pretty she had done deeming Joe. People should
be telling lies.

Speaker 2 (00:14):
All right. So today is my pleasure to interview mister
Michael Langer, co founder of t r X Capital and
and experienced venture capitalists. So for people listening if you
don't remember, uh, he's actually set of doctor Bob Langer
guests we go out on season two the Ballot ten
podcasts and and uh. And also his father, father is

(00:34):
a co founder of Maderna and his son is now
on the podcast. So mister Langer, thank you for being
part of this episode. I just want to say I've
interviewed your father, his business partner, doctor Derrek Rossi, who
was the first guest on my podcast, and several of
his students, and I've had really great interviews with them.
So again, uh, in light of really right career, can

(00:57):
you talk? Can you take us back and to tell
us about your back prep. Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:02):
Sure.

Speaker 3 (01:03):
You know, I was lucky enough as a as a
high schooler to spend some of my summers at VC funds,
and so that gave me some early exposure to to
getting to see some of the ins and outs of
how these things work, you know, in terms of both
the startup side, and then the investing side obviously didn't
add all that much value at sixteen, but the I
think exposure, I think is really helpful for me to

(01:25):
be able to really get to understand, you know, what
it was about these things that was interesting, and I
think for me, it was always a place that I
found a lot of interest in, you know, just seeing
what my dad had done and the impact that it.

Speaker 1 (01:40):
Could have on the world.

Speaker 3 (01:42):
And so as I had grown older, I started in
more business development roles. I really liked the partnership side
of things, particularly because I just really enjoyed sort of
the process of negotiating deals and having to think about
it sort of like a puzzle of you know, how
do you get this other side to agree to a
deal so that your company obviously is in a good

(02:05):
position with your deal, but also making them still feel
good about that deal. And that's a really interesting process.
And then I started doing some investing with my family
about six years ago, and we saw some successes with that,
and now I've started this new fund called TRX Capital.
I can't say all too much about that now because

(02:25):
they're still in stealth mode, but I'm happy at sort
of the highest level to answer any questions.

Speaker 2 (02:31):
Yeah, okay, So actually a few episodes ago, I actually
got a Stanford professor and his dad was also famous,
just like your dad, as dad was the journal editor
of New England Journal of Medicine. So I'm going to
ask you this question. So I'm an all this year
of dad's pretty famous. He's been on my podcast, he's
a co founder Madurna. Do I few liked or We're

(02:51):
going to be under a shadow at some point? Oh?

Speaker 1 (02:56):
My dad?

Speaker 2 (02:56):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (02:57):
How can you not? I think I think it depends
on your age.

Speaker 2 (03:02):
You know.

Speaker 3 (03:02):
For me, I think when I was younger, that was harder, right,
because you're so sort of like formulating who you are,
and so I think, you know, everyone's always like connect,
you know, being like oh when you have these big
shoes and you know this that or the other. And
so I think when you're younger, that's you know, it's
it's uncomfortable. But I think as you get older, maybe

(03:25):
by the time I was twenty five, I'm thirty four now,
I think you just start getting used to it and
comfortable with it.

Speaker 1 (03:31):
And I think it can go in a lot of
different ways.

Speaker 3 (03:33):
I think, you know, some people sort of flee away
from that, and so they go into other professions, you know,
they they don't want to be anywhere near that shadow,
I think for me. And then there's I think some
people where they just sort of they grind your teeth
and they try to make it work. I think for me,

(03:55):
I see it more like, honestly, like a weapon. Like
I think, you know, I'm really fortunate to have had
the experiences and the access points that I have because
of our family, and I feel like because of the
platform we have, we can make great impact with that.
And so you know, I'm thrilled to get to work
with my family, particularly my father, because you know, I think,

(04:17):
first off, it's fun, but I think, second of all,
it's also just something where I think I can make
more impact because of that platform than if I just
did it on my own. So I've over time become
comfortable with that. And so I think some of those
things that maybe when you're younger, in your teens or
early twenties, where you might feel self conscious or insecure,

(04:41):
I think, over time, at least for me, I've grown
to feel quite comfortable in my situation.

Speaker 2 (04:49):
Yeah, So man, I saw your link and that you
worked at living Proof, and so I think, I think
I do. I discussed it prior, but we didn't discuss
it too much. So what is that company? What role
were you playing in that company? Well?

Speaker 3 (05:07):
I didn't play much of a role. I interned there
during the summer when I was in college. But you know,
living Proof is a really cool example of sort of
this cross section of innovation that can happen when you
take great science and you take it to a consumer industry.
And so there was a venture capital fund called Polaris
and they one of the partners there had a couple

(05:29):
of daughters and he looked at the shampoo labels and
was curious as to, you know, what are the ingredients
in these things? And I think what he realizes that
basically every single one of them has silicone as the
as the active ingredient. And so they then went to
my dad and they were like, hey, you know, Bob,
can we make this better? And so over you know,

(05:50):
a few years, they decided to explore this and that
was sort of the impetus.

Speaker 1 (05:54):
Of Living Proof.

Speaker 3 (05:55):
So Plaris and my father they they created living Proof,
and you know, I think at first it struggled to
some level, but then over time, they had a lot
of really great success and it was ultimately a really
good outcome. And you know, it's a great example of
how if you use great science and make great products,
you can make a great company. And so, you know,

(06:17):
they started with the first product called no friz, so
they basically used a binding agent to the hair so
that your hair wouldn't frizz, you know, when there's a
lot of humidity, And then over time they made more
products and it's a great company I think, you know,
ironically for my father, until Maderna probably became one of
the most well known things he had done, just because

(06:40):
obviously people pay more attention sometimes to you know, consumer
products than they would the next therapeutics company.

Speaker 2 (06:48):
Yeah, I heard Gas stepping down from Durna or something.

Speaker 3 (06:52):
Yeah, they announced that today. Yeah, he's very excited about
you know, his the the developments that they've had there
and his work there. So you know, Maderna has been
a great experience for him and he's very excited where
the company's been and also where it's going.

Speaker 2 (07:11):
I mean, I think as hard as a biotech R
and D company to become a big pharmaceutical I talked
to many guests and they said, it's like, like it's
incredibly difficult from a small start up to become like
a huge pharmaceutical because ouither most of them go to
bankruptcy or they get they get acquired. So I think,
but Durna is a really good example.

Speaker 3 (07:33):
Yeah, it's it's pretty crazy, but it's exciting, and I
think Maderna is a testament to what great innovation can
be at scale and in the public eye. You know,
seeing what Macderna has done is I think, you know,
really incredible and the impact that it's out in the world,
and you know, I think hopefully we'll continue to.

Speaker 2 (07:52):
So yeah, I think two muths ago. I think there's
a company called Zara Therapeutics, so the CEO was former
and for Chancellor doctor Mark Levine, so it was Ai drug.
The star every startups is now more than one billion
dollars in funding. So I'm just asking you, as an
investor of venture capitalist, are you shocked about how like,

(08:14):
how like out of such an early C star is
able to acquire that much funds, especially one billion dollars
in funds.

Speaker 1 (08:25):
I don't know that I'm surprised.

Speaker 3 (08:28):
I think there are certain venture capital funds that have
a significant amount of money and so they can do
different kinds of risk stratification of how to make investments.
And I think this as an area is one that
people are excited about and so I think that was
a risk they were willing to make. And obviously they

(08:50):
have a lot of money to do a lot of
things and potentially it could be a great outcome.

Speaker 2 (08:55):
Mm hmm. So I know you're a former corporate executive
at Peer of Therapy taches, So what leadership qualities do
you believe are important for a biotech executive?

Speaker 1 (09:06):
Yeah, I mean I think it depends on the role.
You know, the CEO, the COO, c CEO, all.

Speaker 3 (09:13):
These things I think have different things that we would
want to say I want to see. So I think
as a CEO, you want to be able to motivate
a lot of people. So you know basically what that
means is, I think you want to be able to
believe that you can get a lot of people excited
about an idea, both internally and externally. Externally because you

(09:36):
need to be able to raise more money and get
people to get on board, and internally because you want
to be able to get your employees excited about what
you're doing, so they're motivated, and so that takes you know,
a very specific personality to be able to get all
these people to be invested. But I think there are
other qualities that are important too. I think the because

(10:00):
of that, you want to see things like humility, you know,
I think you really want to be able to believe
that these are people that you, certainly I would want
to get behind for a long time because they have
really I think incredible quality is as human beings as well.

(10:21):
That inspire you as the employee because you're waking up
every day, you know, sometimes ten twelve hours a day,
it'll be pushing forward, and so you want to have
a leader that you really believe in. So I think
things like humility, charisma, kindness, but directness, you know, all
these things are things that are really important in a

(10:43):
great executive, specifically a CEO.

Speaker 1 (10:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (10:46):
So I know Pure fould for the bankruptcy last year.
So I just want to wonder, like what happened to
Peer and what you learn from this experience, Like was
it because the product wasn't ready or was it because
the market bety for Pierce product?

Speaker 3 (11:03):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (11:03):
You know, look, we're proud of what Pair tried to do.

Speaker 3 (11:06):
I think as an idea, digital therapeutics was a really
great one, and we were really inspired by what they did.
You know, they created great products that had really phenomenal
clinical data and we're able to get regulatory approval, but
I think the payer market wasn't really there yet to

(11:27):
reimburse these things, and so because of that, there were
some struggles and ultimately a restructuring had to happen as
a result. But I think as an industry, digital therapeutics
has now struggled, but you know, we still hope that
eventually there might be bright lights there. You know, recently
there was a big Medicare announcement where they're covering some

(11:48):
of these programs now and so that could potentially be interesting.
But you know, ultimately it's all about bets and timing,
and you know, there was a big bet on what
Pair was doing and digital therapeutics, and and I think
it was a worthwhile bet to make because I think
there was a great opportunity and potential and I think
a lot of that was de risk the clinical piece,

(12:09):
the regulatory piece, even some of the commercial piece, but
not always is everything ready for prime time? And unfortunately
the reimbursement part wasn't, but I think overall, you know,
some of them were, and so it will be interesting
to watch what happens in that industry.

Speaker 2 (12:25):
Yeah, so I just want to ask, how do you
stay updated with the most recent transit advancements in biotech?

Speaker 1 (12:33):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (12:33):
I mean I think some of it's reading papers or
articles so that you can understand things that are coming
out a lot of a lot of at least the
way I do. I like conversations, So I talk to
a lot of people every day, some in academia, some entrepreneurs,
some just investors. So I find that having those different

(12:54):
conversations are really helpful. Some of it's going to conferences
and seeing the new themes and things that people are
speaking about. So I think, you know, it's an amalgamation
of all those things. I think it's a lot of
information to take into your brain, and so you just
need to spend a lot of time talking with a

(13:15):
lot of different people that are really intelligent and hopefully
even more intelligent than you are.

Speaker 2 (13:20):
So I know you're a founding partner of Old Silver VC,
So as a VC, how do you identify and Yeah,
that's the way promising boutics startups.

Speaker 3 (13:31):
Yeah, Old Silver was a vehicle through our family, and
you know we invested in number twenty companies.

Speaker 1 (13:39):
We want to look at a number of things.

Speaker 3 (13:41):
I think if it's more on the science side, we're
looking at how do you risk the clinical data is
We want to look at who is involved in the company,
and we want to believe that they have people involved
that really have great ability to lead the charge for
that company or the of the clinical assets. You want

(14:03):
to believe that their business model that they put together
is sound and that the commercial area that they're focusing
on makes sense. So we look for people to be
pretty thoughtful about how they look at all these different things,
and that helps us make decisions on at least at
the surface level, is this is this worth doing? Then
there's some more nuanced stuff like looking at the breath

(14:24):
of intellectual property, looking at their financial position. You know,
do we believe that the amount of money that they're
raising makes sense for the next two years? You know,
who are they going to hire? Why, what's their justification?
So you know, I think ultimately it's really just like
how thoughtful is this person about all this different areas
that they're thinking about?

Speaker 2 (14:46):
You know, in terms of the development of the company.
So what do you look for in a founder before
you invest in startlock? Do you look at at his
his or her personality, like when you're having.

Speaker 1 (14:59):
Some of that?

Speaker 3 (15:00):
That's definitely some of it. I think some of their experiences,
you know, where have they been before? How do they
talk about those experiences? Right? I mean just because someone
had a good experience doesn't mean that they've taken the
things that we might want to see from that experience,
even if it's a failure.

Speaker 1 (15:13):
I think how people are.

Speaker 3 (15:15):
Able to explain and convey information about the experiences they've
had is incredibly important and incredibly insightful into who that
person is. If you talk to someone and they had
a failure, there's a lot of different ways they can
answer how did they learn?

Speaker 1 (15:30):
Like your question earlier, how did you learn from that failure?
You know, what what is the what are the lessons there?

Speaker 3 (15:35):
And how they're able to justify that or how they're
able to be humble about that. You know, some people
might just be like, oh, well, yeah, this was really
good and you know they were wrong. You know, that might,
in my opinion, might not be as good an answer
as someone who you know is able to list off three,
four or five reasons why you know it didn't work

(15:56):
and how because of that they're able to do something
better in the ex trial. So I think thoughtfulness is
incredibly important.

Speaker 2 (16:03):
So I know your families like in the bow tech
and healthcare, have you have you invested in, uh other
fields that are not really about tech, like blockchain, fintech
or maybe AI. Now you know, we we tried it.

Speaker 3 (16:23):
You know, in the past we've mostly done life sciences.
You've probably done some stuff outside of there, but usually
we try to leverage things in high tech. Not to
say I wouldn't look at other things, it's just not
an you know, you want to lean into your competitive edge,
and so that's just not been an area that we've

(16:46):
had as much time that we spent, so so that
that's sort of where we have been focusing. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (16:53):
So I know one company you're involved in, vio to
or VC was was a TI life science ag so
so that went public. Can you describe how the ipeel
cross is like from a VC standpoint.

Speaker 1 (17:05):
Yeah, I mean, I.

Speaker 3 (17:07):
Think it depends on the size of how much money
you have in the round. But typically as a VC,
if you're on the later side, you're probably more involved,
unless you're a really big check earlier on, then you
might still be more involved later. By the time, like
a company exits, a lot of the early stage investors

(17:30):
are not as involved anymore because they're usually more involved
in the seed round, a round, maybe the.

Speaker 1 (17:34):
B round, maybe even the seat round.

Speaker 3 (17:37):
And that's not to say the all funds aren't, but
most early stage vcs, you know, they're very helpful at
a certain place in time to get the company to
where it needs to be. But then there's you know,
growth firms that come in, and so the role that
the vcs play over time is very different at each

(17:59):
stage of the company. And some of that depends on
the relationship between the founder and the VC. You know,
sometimes the VC and the founder will have such a
tight knit relationship that even in the later stages they're
still involved.

Speaker 1 (18:12):
You certainly can see that too.

Speaker 3 (18:15):
So some of it just really depends on the firm,
the size of the firm, and then how long they've
had to wait to go public too, right, that matters
as well. Right, if a company goes public in five
years is more likely. The early stage venture fund is
quite instrumental in that if it's ten years, then potentially
less they still have a position, but they may be

(18:35):
a bit more passive than active if.

Speaker 1 (18:39):
It's more earlier on.

Speaker 2 (18:40):
So, do you usually sell like a significant portion of
your investment when the company IPOs or do you keep
most of your stake in a company.

Speaker 3 (18:48):
You're not usually able to sell much for the first
six months. There's usually a lock up period, and sometimes
it can be dictated and pre baked that it might
be longer. I think my personal view, depending on where
things are, is sort of case by case. I think
there are times when I might think it makes sense

(19:11):
to take some off and make in the other times
where it makes sense to leave it in. I think
it really depends on the market, what you believe, on
the company. Those are all factors I think you.

Speaker 1 (19:24):
Have to weigh in.

Speaker 2 (19:26):
So, what are some common challenges Boctic Starves face and
how can they overcome these challenges?

Speaker 1 (19:33):
Yeah? I mean, I think one of.

Speaker 3 (19:36):
The biggest challenges we see with biotech companies, at least
at the early stage, is you know, what are they
focused on? I think a lot of early founders want
to do a lot of things, and focus is important.
I think having a broad story that they can have
to do many things is important too, But I think

(19:56):
focus is quite important. So I think that's something that
people have to think about when they're evaluating a founder.
And I think the other is their ability to be
adaptable at an early stage. Things are changing all the time,
so as a founder, you have to constantly be thinking about,

(20:17):
you know, what happens in this situation, how do I
make changes or not? And being able to do that
well is a really important skill.

Speaker 2 (20:28):
Well, we're going to move on to your new VC
firm called Tierra X Capital, So I'm just wondering why
you founded like a new firm because I know you're
working at your old firm in o To or VC.

Speaker 1 (20:41):
Oh Old Old Silver has been been on pause for
about two years.

Speaker 2 (20:45):
Now, let's see. But like I was wondering why you
formed your new VC firm, so.

Speaker 3 (20:51):
Old Silver was a concept fund that our family did,
and I think it was a really successful vehicle to
be able to explore doing venture investing as our family.
But for me, TRX is something, you know, where we
can be doing things on a broader, larger scale. Again,

(21:12):
I can't answer all that much about TRX because We're
still in the fundraising market, so I'm not able to
answer many questions about it, just given you know how
sec laws work in fundraising.

Speaker 2 (21:24):
Yeah, so I have a general question. So there's this
nonal trx capital. So do you use your own money
like usually do venture capitals use their own money to
form a new form or do you pool other people's
money to s to reform?

Speaker 3 (21:36):
You generally do a combination of both, and every single
fund is different on what those ratios are.

Speaker 2 (21:42):
I see. Okay, so what trends do you foresee shaping
the future biotech in the next decade.

Speaker 1 (21:49):
Yeah, so, I think tech will shape it a lot.

Speaker 3 (21:54):
I think that that will allow for biotech to move
a lot faster. I think you also need to seem
more more examples of how tech companies and biotech companies
work together. I think also talent will then change in
terms of how we think about how these companies need
to come together.

Speaker 1 (22:12):
That becomes really important.

Speaker 3 (22:16):
And then I think the other piece that's really important
is we're going to see probably more companies that are
sort of younger blood, if you will, meaning I think
because of access to capital, you'll have more examples of
companies that don't have to just raise fifty million out
of the gate, and you know, have some thirty year legacy,

(22:38):
you know, executive from a pharmer company leading the way
you might have a PhD and a few other folks
that come together to create a company. And so I
think that that makes biotech investing and entrepreneurship quite interesting
as we think about the future.

Speaker 2 (22:55):
Yeah, Teddy had any instance where like the whole board
and cleaning, an invest or like you had to take
over control of the company because the founder wasn't like
competent enough to continue the company. Has for been an
instance like this, We we.

Speaker 3 (23:10):
Haven't specifically I did that, but certainly it has to
happen sometimes. And I think you know, you you try
to do what you can as a fund to help
helm the ships so that they bring in good management
and that they're able in addition to bring in good
management to have a good handoff plan, because you know,
both of those pieces are are are pretty critical.

Speaker 2 (23:33):
Yeah, So you know, I know you're you're an active philanthropist.
You could found a young total society and you teach
kids how to code using oh perhaps berry pie. So
what made you give back to the community specifically, like
it is it.

Speaker 3 (23:52):
Yeah, when I was about, yeah, about a decade ago,
a friend of mine came to me with that opportunity,
and you know, I felt like it was a really
interesting way of getting kids excited about STEM, which has
always been a passion of mine. And I think raspberry
pies are really fun, They're easy to use, and it's

(24:13):
a good way to get kids excited about coding. And
I always have liked video games too, and it's a
cool sort of format and you can basically do things
where you're able to do things with you know, Minecraft
as a way of using that as the vehicle to code,
and it was I think a great experience for me.

Speaker 2 (24:33):
Yeah, So I have a question about BC funding. So
I think I read from an article that like, I think,
particularly therapeutics side, most founders are around their late fouries
or fifties or stop many like twenties or thirties, you know,
adults founding these therapeutic companies. So my question is why
is it that like usually their therapeutics like that we

(24:55):
have there, the founders are more older because I'm like
tech industry now, like you have like nineteen year olds Like.

Speaker 3 (25:04):
Yeah, I mean I think I think, first of all,
I think it's a changing landscape, so I think some
of that is changing to some capacity, not completely.

Speaker 1 (25:13):
I think some of that is.

Speaker 3 (25:14):
Because to really fundamentally understand science you have to have,
you know, sometimes a decade of training, whereas in coding
you don't necessarily have to have that. Science, at least currently,
I think is probably more technically complicated than coding, which
means that the barrier to entry is more significant. I

(25:35):
think also, and this is where it gets a difference
between tech and science, is it's one thing to understand
fundamentally science. It's one thing to fundamentally understand coding, but
it's another to understand drug development, and that's very different
than having to do anything with coding. Now, I don't
I would imagine that AI might have similarities because you

(25:59):
have to now gate and have think about a lot
of different factors, which means you have to have some
sort of wisdom to understand those nuances. But I think
that that's really the biggest reason why in biotech you
often see people being older. But again to my poor
in earlier I do think that is changing in some
capacities because it is I think becoming cheaper to found companies,

(26:20):
and I think there are more abilities and we're starting
to see younger founders in biotech.

Speaker 2 (26:26):
So what advice would you give to aspiring entrepreneurs in
the topic A lot of people?

Speaker 3 (26:33):
I think talking to as many people as are willing
to talk to you and learning from them and hearing
from them. I think there's no better use of your time.
I think that way you've learned things, you build a network.
And I don't think that there's any better way of
spending your time when you're younger than that, other than
maybe experiences too. Internships are really important. Spending times in labs,

(26:56):
especially with scientists who have spun out company and learning
from them, you know, experiences and learning through other people
through talking to them. I don't think there's anything better
that you can do.

Speaker 2 (27:07):
So what is there any other advice to give to students,
specifically who want to pursue bout tech more business in general?

Speaker 3 (27:16):
Watch your podcast wait actulely, Yeah, I mean anyone's. I
mean podcasts are great. Media content is great.

Speaker 1 (27:27):
I mean, I think.

Speaker 3 (27:29):
Those are things that people It's helpful because you're getting
to hear from people in a really human way how
they think about things. So I think your podcast is
a great example of that.

Speaker 1 (27:40):
I think.

Speaker 3 (27:42):
That's a place that people can learn a lot of
really important lessons.

Speaker 2 (27:46):
So it's an idea of anything else to add that
you never mentioned right right now or no, this is
this has been great.

Speaker 1 (27:57):
I appreciate having me on and no, this has been awesome.
Yeh yeah.

Speaker 2 (28:01):
So I want say thank you mister Langaging for this
episode and giving me the opportunity to talk to you
so people can get you to know more about your
insights into venture capitalists and also sure investing