Episode 118: How Chasing Trophy Muskies Teaches Leadership, Discipline, And The Long Game

What keeps you casting when the lake goes dead quiet and your fingers are numb? We sit down with Ugly Pike co-host and Passador BJJ owner, Frank Ungaro, to map the shared DNA between landing trophy muskies, leading a thriving academy, and growing a podcast people trust. The common thread is obsession paired with integrity—showing up, learning fast, and respecting the community that makes the chase worth it.

Frank takes us into a Lac Seul trip derailed by a brutal cold front, where structure, timing, and humility became the only tools that mattered. We talk fall muskie strategy on the St. Lawrence, Georgian Bay, and the Ottawa corridor, why the “fish of a lifetime” often arrives in freezing wind, and how local intel outperforms a suitcase full of the wrong baits. From blades tuned to skim thin weed windows to trolling tracks that hold under helicopter shadows, the tactics are hard-won and specific.

Off the water, we dive into building culture—how Frank refuses to be ruled by membership numbers, how attrition shapes a gym, and why promoting people is about character as much as skill. We trace the Ugly Pike Podcast from a scrappy two-episode start to a weekly platform that mixes advanced muskie talk with real life.

If you’re chasing bigger fish and bigger goals, this conversation will sharpen your edge. You’ll leave with practical fall tactics, a clearer sense of what real leadership looks like, and the reminder that patience isn’t passive—it’s active, disciplined pursuit.

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_08 (00:05):
I think you have to come to a point in your show
where you just kind of maybebelieve that you have a good
product.
I think we're there now aftermany years, after just not
knowing.
Um, and you just start sharingyour life and your thoughts and
treating your listeners liketheir buddies and that you've
connected with them on anintellectual level.

(00:26):
And I think that's gonna openthe door to giving you some
creative license.

SPEAKER_05 (00:31):
This week on the Outdoor Journal Radio Podcast
Networks, Diaries of a LodgeOwner, Stories of the North, we
dive headfirst into the world ofbig fish, an even bigger
ambition.
The kind that keeps you castingwhen your arms are sore, or
building a business wheneveryone else would have packed

(00:51):
it in.
It's that relentless pursuit ofthe next great story.
Whether it's on the water or inthe Jiu Jitsu Academy or behind
the mic.
That's what fuels today's guest.
And that's exactly what we'reexploring this week.
And it is now my pleasure tointroduce to all of you, co-host

(01:12):
of the Ugly Pike Podcast, FrankOngaro.
On this show, Frank and I talkabout the Ugly Pike Podcast and
his Pasador Jiu Jitsu Academy,and how he has built his brands
around obsession, discipline,and the never-ending pursuit for
knowledge.
We talk about what it reallytakes to succeed in business,

(01:35):
the grind of podcasting, and howthe lessons learned from chasing
trophy muskies translateperfectly into the world of
entrepreneurship.
From setbacks to successstories, this shows a
masterclass in patience,passion, and persistence.
So grab a coffee, settle intoyour favorite chair, and join us

(02:00):
as we cast our lines into thewater of ambition, creativity,
and the pursuit of excellence.
Because both in fishing and inlife, it's not about luck.
It's about showing up, stayingthe course, and never stopping
until you hook that one momentthat changes everything.

(02:23):
Here's my conversation withFrank Angaro.
Hi there, folks, and welcome toanother episode of Diaries of a
Lodge Owner, Stories of theNorth.
And uh, as you heard off thetop, we have a very special
guest with us today, and hisname is Frank Angaro, and he is

(02:46):
one of the faces of Ug the UglyPike podcast, amongst other
things.
Welcome to the show, Frank.

SPEAKER_08 (02:54):
Oh, uh, it's great to be here, Steve Son.

SPEAKER_05 (02:58):
Yes, yes.
Uh Frank and I were justgiggling.
Uh, I have a um a very uh a bitof an Asian look to me today.
I uh was stung by a wasp on myforehead and my eyes are uh are
uh almost swollen shut.
Actually, I'm in good shapetoday.
Yesterday they were.

(03:19):
Um, but uh, you know, I uh it'sone of those things you gotta
you gotta pay your dues whenyou're working with honeybees.
And at least it wasn't thehoneybees that got me.
It was uh it was an invader wasptrying to steal honey from us.

SPEAKER_08 (03:34):
So I was gonna call the cops because I thought
someone broke in your house anduh, you know, just impersonating
you or something like that.
You know?

SPEAKER_04 (03:43):
Yeah, I I know.

SPEAKER_08 (03:44):
I I just I just had uh word that my credit card was
being used all over the countrylast night by American Express.
And so I thought all this allthis weird thing is ha are
happening to me today, and my myfriend Steve's been replaced by
somebody.
I feel like I'm in the TwilightZone right now.
Oh my god.
What's going on?
I know.
Well, it's good that you're onthe mend.
I mean, are you so you have anallergy?

(04:06):
Is that the problem?
Or I guess I have no idea.

SPEAKER_05 (04:09):
I've never I've been stung by the honey bees.
Um uh I'm not a lot.
Like, I mean, I work with themand I don't use uh a cape or uh
anything like that, but uh I'vebeen stung on the hand and on my
uh knee or whatever.
And it's always my fault.
Like, I mean, you grab a tooland and a bee gets stuck between

(04:30):
the tool and and what you'redoing, and and uh you get stung.
But uh this time uh I got oneright on the forehead, and uh
and it didn't swell up untilabout four hours after.

SPEAKER_08 (04:40):
So I'll tell you what, I I had something happen
to me this summer that you onlyhear about happening to other
people.
I was at a little get-togetherand I had a beer open, and I
took a sip, and I felt somethingin the beer, and I I went to
spit it out, and I there's a beein my hand.
And I'm like, oh shit.
And then I'm like, lucky itdidn't sting me.

(05:01):
And then I started feeling alittle sting.
It was just, I didn't feel itwhen it happened.
I, you know, whatever.
I wasn't expecting it.
And then immediately as Ifinished that thought, I I felt
a little tingle on my lip, alittle sting, a little pin.
And then my lips swelled up,kind of like your face swelled
up, and uh uh it was disgusting.
But uh, I went around askingpeople if I looked better

(05:22):
because I know people pay moneyto get their lips.
So I had that look for a littlewhile.
I should have I should havetaken some selfies for social
media, but you should have.

SPEAKER_05 (05:30):
I I I would have appreciated seeing it.

SPEAKER_08 (05:32):
It was uh it was it was freaking awful, man.
It was uh it was so disgustingto spit a beer, a bee out into
your hand, you know.

SPEAKER_05 (05:39):
And I know.
Well, it's uh I'm not sure whatwould be worse.
Uh uh I've never done the beething in my beer, but but I've
definitely picked up the wrongone and spit at a few cigarette
butts.

SPEAKER_08 (05:50):
And that's I'd rather get stung by the bee, I
think.

SPEAKER_05 (05:52):
I agree.
I I agree.
Because when you want to talkabout disgusting, there's not
much more disgusting thanspitting at a mouthful of
somebody else's cigarette butts,especially when you don't even
smoke.
Yeah.
Well, but anyway, so how's yoursummer been going?

SPEAKER_08 (06:11):
Uh, it was a good summer.
I mean, fishing wise, we hadsome fun adventures.
Um, not a lot, not uh in termsof success, not a lot, but like
we had a lot of fun and we did alot of things.
And um, you know, so uh hangingout with the family and just uh
taking it easy.
But um trip up to Laxoul thisyear with Chris.

(06:32):
Chris was uh, you know, he comeshome uh for a little while
throughout the year and um weheaded up to our favorite lake
uh up at Laxool and and had acrazy challenge up there.
But you know, we get we got whatwas the challenge?
Giant cold front come throughand shut the lake off for a
week.
Yeah, yeah, it was Isn't thatthe way it goes?

(06:53):
I'll tell you something, man.
What it was it was the weirdestthing I'd ever seen.
Like, so the the summer washottest balls pretty much
everywhere.
We had a hot summer, and then weget up there and the first night
it goes down to nine degrees.
Nine degrees from like, youknow, the the the heat of the
summer.
We're there in August, you know,for crying out loud.
And uh yeah, so we we get upthere and uh the lake shuts off.

(07:16):
And uh, you know, we go for acouple days, we don't see a
fish.
And the weirdest thing, likenobody saw any fish, okay?
That's not weird in a coldfront, that's to be expected.
But I spoke to a a guide upthere.
Uh we were he was our guide forthe day.
And uh he said, you know, I saidI I met up with him in the in
the in the lodge office, and uhthe owner of the of Moosehorn

(07:38):
Lodge, Linda, uh who's a legend,the Musky Mama they call her.
Uh Lynn, Linda says, you know,this guy's gonna be your uh your
guide today.
And and I turned to him and hegoes, I had my best day of my
life yesterday.
We we saw 14 fish and we boatedseven, and I looked at him and I
laughed, and he wasn't laughing.
I go, I go, what?
And he he's like, Yeah, best dayof my life.

(07:59):
I'm like, nobody ever, nobodysaw any fish.
Like, we're no cold friends,nobody saw any fish.
Well, I went up to the northernpart of the lake, yada yada
yada.
Okay, well, I spoke to someonethat was fishing in the northern
part of the lake, and he had ashit day too.
Well, so I go back and I I'mlike, okay, well, you know,
today's gonna be the day we'regonna do it.
Uh 14 fish, yeah, let's do it.
Yeah.

(08:19):
So I run into the run into ourcabin.
Chris is like half dead becausehe's had two surgeries in the
last two months, and doctorslike, yeah, you need to do
nothing for four months.
And eight weeks later, eight uheight, eight, uh, two weeks
later, he's you know, at Laxuel,you know, throwing pounders.
Throwing pounders for freaking,we were there for seven days,

(08:41):
you know.
So he's just putting himselftogether in the morning, and I
say, Ah, good news, good news.
And I told him the story.
I'm like, oh, we're in yourquestion today, we're in your
question today.
We get in the guy's boat, we goto the same place, zero fish.
Uh, and and so this is the therub with muskies, and this is
why you know you guys over atFishing Canada don't do very
many muskie episodes becausethese fish, yeah, these fish are

(09:01):
you know epic in terms of theway they mess with your psyche.
Um and so yeah, we had just aslow time.
Um uh one of our guides um put afish in the boat for Chris,
which was important because youknow I get to fish all the time,
and Chris doesn't.
Um, so we had a great momentthere.
Um I published a compilationvideo on our ugly pike podcast

(09:22):
uh YouTube page, which we don'tusually do a lot of things on,
but I threw a video onto thereand it uh it shows uh it's kind
of a description of our show,but it shows the moment we
caught that fish and we allstart acting like lunatics.
So um it was great for Chris toget a fish in the boat.
It was a nice fish.
And we went out with Ben BD uhon the eighth day.
We stayed for a uh a day becauseBen, you know, was gracious

(09:43):
enough to on his day off take usout.
We're good friends with Ben.
We love him.
Um and I lost a really, a reallynice one at the boat, it was on,
and I just got stupid.

SPEAKER_05 (09:52):
And um, so you know what if we it's hard, it's hard
to not get stupid when you'vegot a really nice one on at the
side of the boat, yeah.
Especially with muskies, becauseeven though we've fished muskies
for years and years and years,you go out and the amount of
time that you have to invest toget hooked up with one, it's

(10:15):
almost like everyone is thefirst one.

SPEAKER_08 (10:17):
Yeah, that's a good way of putting it.

SPEAKER_05 (10:19):
Yeah, yeah, you know.
Yeah, but uh well, that's uhthat's that's awesome.

SPEAKER_08 (10:25):
Well, you know, we we we we talked with uh with
Wisconsin native and Eagle Lakefishing guide who's you know
famous, both famous andinfamous, I guess you could say,
but we like him.
Steve Herbeck and uh Steve saiduh, you know, the day my knees
stop shaking at the side of theboat when I see a big fish is
the day I'm gonna pack it up.
And you know, not too many guyson the planet have seen more,

(10:47):
you know, 50 plus inchers than aguy like Steve.
So that's the way that that'sit.
It's the first time.
You that's a really, really coolway of putting it.
We're I'm probably gonna stealthat from you from my own show.

SPEAKER_05 (10:58):
So you can you can have that.
Well that like I mean the timethat you have to invest to catch
each and every one of thosefish, when you do hook onto
them, it is it feels like thefirst time.
And that's something that uhthat's that uh in any kind of um
love hobby, um um any kind ofactivity, it's hard to do that

(11:21):
consistently with like I mean,if you go out and you curl every
time you make a double takeout,you know, it doesn't really seem
like the first time when you gota muskie on.
For me anyway, because there'sthere's so much time in between
catching them.
Fair enough.
Like the first time.

SPEAKER_08 (11:39):
Well, you know, I my other passion is jujitsu, and
like um, I always do say thatum, you know, I get when I plan
my lessons, when I step on themat to teach, we have you know,
big classes of school has uh abig student body, it's a it's a
big uh building.
And uh I always say it feelslike the first time when I step
on that mat after even 30 years.

(12:00):
So um these are two things thatyou know I've basically modeled
my life after, and and every mylife is about these two things,
other than of course my family.
But um so yeah, it's very muchlike that for me.
And that's that's what truepassion is.
And and you're lucky if you havesomething like that in your
life, let alone two things.
You're very lucky if you haveone thing in your life that you
can say, you know, kind of fitsthat description.

SPEAKER_05 (12:21):
A hundred percent.
Let's talk a little bit aboutthat, jujitsu.
Okay.
So you've got a you've got a uha school and you um rent or own
a big building down there, likea gym.
Yeah.
How many students do you haveinside um your is it is it
called a dojo?

SPEAKER_08 (12:39):
Uh no, we call it um we call it a uh I call it an
academy.
Uh dojo is more of a kind of atraditional, and I'm on my phone
right now because I'm justtrying to get an image to kind
of show you through the uh wejust had a professional
photographer come through andand take uh take some shots.
And that was uh that was classthe other night at the gym.

(13:00):
Um it's a big building, like Isaid, and uh it's great.
So sorry, your question, there'slike a kind of a Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (13:10):
Yeah, so it's that's amazing.

SPEAKER_08 (13:12):
Yeah, it's it's it's awesome.
If anyone wants to check it outat Pastador BJJ,
P-A-S-S-A-D-O-R-B J um onInstagram.
And if you do train and you'relistening, come check out our
Friday night open mats, uh, nogee open mats.
They're awesome.
Uh, we get lots of people comefrom uh around the region.
We had people from Oshawa theother night come for our open

(13:32):
mat.
It's very well known for the thehigh caliber of students that
are there, not only from ourgym, but we get lots of MMA guys
and wrestlers uh from NiagaraTop Team or other different
really cool schools in theregion.
Uh, and it's just a great nightof hard training and and high
level, high-level grappling.
Um, it's great, yeah.
It's the best.

SPEAKER_05 (13:53):
So, how many students do you have uh in your
academy roughly?

SPEAKER_08 (13:57):
I I I don't know because like it seems like a
weird answer, but because theattrition rate is so high in
jujitsu, there's always peoplecoming and going.
So it's really hard to put anumber, you know, behind how
many students are training atthe school.
And the other part of it is Idon't I don't I don't feel like

(14:17):
it's healthy for me to to thatextent to track the population
of my school.
It's very easy to get down whenthe number's down, and it's
really easy to get up when thenumbers up.
And I've learned over the yearsthat the gym is gonna be okay
and that there's always gonna bepeople coming and going.
And it's part of it's part ofthis life that we have that

(14:37):
people come and go.
Sometimes for years, and youthink they're gonna stay and
they become really good friendsand they leave.
And it's emotionally it's tough,you know, when you're when
you're good buddies and you'retraining buddies, they just
disappear.
But um, to be a lifer in this isuh it's one in, you know, it's
one in five thousand people.
It's it's very, very difficultto find somebody like that.

(14:58):
I I can count on one hand thenumber of guys, you know, in my
gym that are like 20 years.

SPEAKER_05 (15:04):
Yeah, yeah.
Absolutely.
Well, like I mean, I can see theemotional attachment um parallel
the lodge business.
Sure.
Yeah.
Right?
Because you're you're you'rebuilding relationships with
people over a longer period oftime, and you, you know, it's
it's personal.
You you it's hard to not take itpersonal when somebody doesn't

(15:27):
come back the next year.
Or, you know, why did they not?
Or they go to another lodge.
Yeah, yeah, I'm talking aboutthe lodge.

SPEAKER_08 (15:35):
But they go to another lodge, is what I'm
saying.
That's not a good feeling,right?

SPEAKER_05 (15:38):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But but uh again, like you said,I um I I I eventually learned
that um all you can do is thebest with what God gave you.
And um I would uh I would do thebest at uh giving people an
experience and finding out whatthey wanted.

(16:00):
And if something did go wrong,finding out what that was,
because I would call people thatdidn't come back and just ask,
you know, uh, was theresomething that we did?
Could there be something that Icould do better?
And um eventually, you know whatI found, Frank?
People would would come and theythey would come for two or three

(16:22):
years in a row, and then youknow, because yeah, either
you've got one of two kinds ofpeople people that like to move
around and see different things,and then you got the person who
just is totally comfortable withwhat they've got, and they don't
want to explore because theythey're worried that they're not

(16:46):
gonna get as good an uh of anexperience.
And when they find somethingthey're happy with, they stick
with it.
But then you got those peoplethat travel around, and it has
nothing to do with whether ornot they like you or your
product.
And but the one the key thing Ifound is when those people move

(17:08):
around, if you do a good jobwith them, they always come
back, and they usually come backafter a year or two and they
say, Wow, I wish I had neverleft here because they they they
they don't have the sameexperience and then they come
back.

SPEAKER_08 (17:26):
The grass is always greener.

SPEAKER_05 (17:28):
Well, that's that's true, right?
It's so true.

SPEAKER_08 (17:31):
And what you're saying is such a direct
parallel.
Um, I don't have very manystudents leave my gym, but I've
had several over the years, andand a lot of them have come
back.
Uh some of them, most of them Ijust told no uh for whatever
reason.
But some of them I I I I Iunderstand, and if they if they
if they leave with integrity andthey talk to me and they they

(17:53):
discuss it, then the doors open.
And if they just take off andyou know they they go silent,
and I don't find that anhonorable thing.
Um but to your to your point,um, and and maybe a lesson that
I've learned is like so in theearly, early days, um, when I
had this school, but it was likea pet project.

(18:13):
I had a corporate job and thiswasn't my part of my livelihood,
and I didn't care who came andwent and whatever.
We just had a space and we had20 guys that wanted to train,
and you know, everybody's payingme 50 bucks, and I broke even
and the economics worked, andnow we weren't training in our
garage.
So I was happy and I didn'tcare.
And I remember like um I had tostart promoting people, and I

(18:36):
had a really good friend of minewho I spent a lot of time with,
fast-tracked his learning.
We did a lot of privatetraining, never charged him
anything.
He was a friend.
Um, and then one time we hadjust a disagreement about his
promotion, and and we were kindof going at it in the parking
lot, and he said, you know, thisisn't a real school, it's never
gonna be a real school, blah,blah, blah.
And I remember like that momentwas like such a pivotal moment

(18:58):
in my life where I was like, I'mgonna have to prove this guy so
wrong.
Like, and then I really took itseriously.
And then, like, you know, I hadissues over the year with
competitors popping up, and oh,this guy's uh, you know, this
guy's this guy, and holy cow,and this guy's going to his
school now, and blah, blah,blah.
And like, I just said to myself,you know, first of all, I knew I

(19:18):
was gonna win.
I knew I was gonna win.
I knew I was gonna build what Ihave built.
I just knew it.
And I believed in myself.
And, you know, sure there'sdoubts along the way,
absolutely, but like I knew thatif I treated people well, I
understood people well, um, Iunderstood human behavior well
and psyche well.
I studied, um, I started inbusiness school.

(19:41):
I dropped out, I wanted to go tolaw school, so I started
political science.
And I took a lot of philosophymajors because not because I
thought they were useful or thatthey would be useful.
A lot of philosophy andpolitical philosophy overlap, so
I could use the same papers indifferent classes uh and save
some time.
But what I ended up learning,like, you know, if you're not
going to be a, you know, itseems like a useless field, but

(20:03):
you learn a lot about humannature and motivations and the
types of people and the way thebrain works and the way society
works.
And I I I I I learned how totreat people and and I just
believed in myself.
And like at one point, I justkind of stopped caring what
everybody else was doing.
And, you know, things reallystarted working out for me.

(20:25):
And so, you know, we're one ofthe best gyms in the country
now.
Um, everybody knows who we are,everybody, you know, everybody
seeks us out.
Whenever somebody in NiagaraFalls or in the Niagara region
wants to do jujitsu, they cometo us first.
I know they do.
I get I probably get the firstcrack at most people, unless,
you know, they're living reallyclose to a place, you know, in a
town over or two towns over, Iget it.

(20:48):
Um, but I I mean I think reallyjust doing the right thing, most
importantly, and I know you knowthis because when I met you, it
was so evident.
Um, but you were genuine and youhad integrity.
And um, those two things youcan't fake.
And when you run your business,especially when you're in a
leadership position like I am,like you were, uh, you know, you

(21:12):
I was at the Chaudiere Lodgewhen you ran it years and years
ago, you know, probably 2013 or2014.
And uh, you know what, you youcame out and and made me, a
nobody, feel like, you know, Iwas really important and we
played foosball and we hadlaughs, and um, and that's it.

(21:32):
You know, if you if you do thosethings, then you know, you're
gonna you're gonna succeed andyou're not gonna have to deal
with you know that as much.
And then when someone leaves,you can be in a very comfortable
position to say, you know what,I'm gonna see that person again.
And if I don't, they're reallyjust not the kind of person for
us, anyways.
And you're not stressed aboutit.

SPEAKER_05 (21:54):
Or or if you don't see that person, they found they
found something that fits betterfor them and good for them.
Right?
You know, and and um uh it'sinteresting when you were
talking about that pivotalmoment and um when you stopped
caring what other people think.
Um the best way I can describethat is that's when you ceased

(22:18):
to be a follower and began to bea leader.
And um and that and and thouthose are very important things
in any aspect of business.
Um you know, and and umeverything that you were saying
about knowing people and knowinghow to treat people and honesty
and integrity, um those arethings that if you can employ

(22:46):
those in any business, you willbe successful.
There's no the it it's it's law.
It's law.
Okay, and once you set your yourmind on a specific goal, and the
key is staying focused on thatgoal and employing the things
that we just said, there isnothing that nobody cannot do.

(23:08):
No doubt.
You know what I mean?
And and and it's been provenboth in your case and in my
case.
Um and and it's not an easy,it's not an easy thing, like you
said, uh to to be blessed tohave two things that you're
passionate about and you chase.
Um, you know, uh since I've soldthe lodge, I've been looking for

(23:31):
that thing.
And uh I've done lots of things,believe me.
Um but it's it's um it's hard tofind something that you can be
uh passionate about to the pointwhere you know that you will not
fail.
And um for people out there thatare looking for that, just uh

(23:51):
keep uh keep looking because itthe it's there, right?

SPEAKER_08 (23:55):
I I don't think the podcast that we have is
dissimilar, like we don't treatit as a job, but we treat it as
like I don't want to say anobligation because that implies
that there's another side thatyou know maybe we don't want to
do this, but that's just not thecase.
Um we don't miss publishing uhdates.
Uh Chris is so busy, you know.

(24:16):
He lives in Saudi Arabia, he'suh an architect over there, and
he's I've seen the org chart,it's like Prince such and such,
Chris, and then you know, athousand, a thousand people.
Like it's insane.
Um and like and we struggle.
We struggle with um we we've gotuh we've got uh my buddy Pete

(24:36):
Bosselman and and uh recentlysigned UFC uh fighter Cody
Kovanchak coming on um tomorrow.
And it's take it's taken us likethree weeks to line that up.
We the the three of us uh fishedtogether, Cody and Pete and I,
um a couple weeks ago.
And so we've been trying to linethis up, but and then line up
with Chris, and it's it's reallyhard, but we always we always

(24:59):
just make it happen.
And um you know, we're reallygrateful.
I I think um I think you know wewere recognized by Pete Pete and
Angelo, thankfully.
And uh it's been a a very umit's been a real fun ride
getting to know everybody on onsort of your side of the of the
Fishing Canada family and andDean and and everybody over

(25:21):
there.
Like it's just been a greatride.
So uh I just sent uh Angelo anemail.
I'm I'm coming through town uhthe first week of November, so
I'm I'm hoping he's got time tosit with me and we can talk
about a few things and uh andstay connected because it's been
a uh just a great ride.
But um but I think it's thesame, like the passion and you
know, we really believe inourselves and the show because

(25:43):
of the feedback we get and theand the and the recognition we
get.
And and now it's it's just umit's just kind of uh on
autopilot where uh uh everyonelistens and we just want to make
it better.
And and we've got some reallycool shows coming up that uh
people are it's gonna blowpeople's minds.
Um and so yeah, it's it's it'seasy to succeed, I think, if you

(26:05):
just kind of you know treatpeople right and and believe in
yourself and and and and leadthe way and innovate.
Don't get lazy and all that sortof stuff.

SPEAKER_05 (26:13):
So yeah, yeah, 100%.
How many years have you beendoing ugly pipe?

SPEAKER_08 (26:17):
It's our eighth year.

SPEAKER_05 (26:18):
Eighth year.

SPEAKER_08 (26:19):
Yeah, it's our eighth year.

SPEAKER_05 (26:20):
And uh, what episode are you in?

SPEAKER_08 (26:22):
Well, we don't have many because at the beginning we
have this is 200 and we're inthe 250s right now, mid-250s.
Uh, because for the first umbefore the Fishing Canada
Outdoor Journal Radio PodcastNetwork days, we were doing uh a
show every two weeks because ofChris's crazy schedule, right?
So we would we would record uhan episode for two hours, cut it

(26:44):
in half, and we'd have oneobligation essentially for the
month, right?
And then you know that changed.
Now we do once a week, and so wewe're just a little busier.
But you know, we're gonna rackup the the episodes now a lot
faster.
But yeah, at the beginning forthe first few years, that that
was it.
And because we didn't reallyeven think anyone was listening,
we said we said if we get ahundred, if we get a hundred

(27:06):
downloads, we'll consider this asuccess.
We we said that kind of to eachother when we started this, and
you know, even eight years ago,podcasts weren't really a thing.
Like it was really it was weird,you know.
We were really the first ones inthe muskie fishing space, one of
the first ones in the fishingspace.
Um, I remember when we wereinvited to uh to the studio by

(27:26):
Angelo and Pete to host theirtheir A co-host their AM radio
show.
Yeah you know, Angelo was justlearning about podcasts by back
then, and I mean I really Ireally come to uh to know Angelo
well, but he said to us, youknow, you should make your
episodes five minutes long.
And we're waiting we do it foran hour.
Like, what are you talkingabout?

(27:47):
And he and he I don't I don'tremember his rationale, but
obviously he was still gettinghis head around, you know, what
what podcasts were.
And I said, you know, I said,Angelo, I said, I don't sit down
and I still don't.
I don't sit down and listen tovery many podcasts straight
shot.
Um, my my phone is hooked up tomy truck, and when I'm in my
truck, wherever I left off, Ibegin.
Unless I'm traveling, you know,you're you're traveling for a

(28:08):
few hours, you can bang off acouple episodes.
But my day-to-day life islistening to podcasts as I
pretty much move in and out ofmy car.
Um, I was just at the thechiropractor, yeah, that's why I
was five minutes late.
And you know, I have my ear podsin and uh was listening to a
show while I was, you know,getting the the pads on my my
knee and my back and everywhereelse it hurts.

(28:28):
And um, so you know what peoplelisten kind of in segments, but
I mean the point is like backthen everyone was just kind of
trying to figure out what thehell we were doing.
Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_05 (28:39):
Yeah, for sure.
So yeah.
What are some of your favoritepodcasts?
That we did that you did or andthat you listened to.

SPEAKER_08 (28:49):
Oh well, um Mike Two great questions.
Uh that I listen to you, like uhpeople are gonna get kind of
bored by this, but like I'm abig economics politics guy.
So my favorite podcast is uhpodcast called the All-In
Podcast right now.
I love it.
Uh it's four billionaires.
Um, they're spread across thepolitical spectrum, so you don't

(29:09):
get um you don't get biased, youget a lot of good, honest
debate.
They're all good friends, so youget a lot of um you get a lot of
real debate with these guys.
Yeah.
Uh but they're, you know,they're they're uh a lot of them
are tech guys, tech and scienceguys, investors, uh VC guys, and
they're you know, they're thetop echelonist society.
These guys are the innovators,the movers, the shakers, and uh

(29:32):
the one guy, David Sachs, uh,was uh um chosen to be uh for
this uh Trump administration,his AI and crypto czar.
Uh and he's just about thesmartest guy uh I've heard.
I love him.
Um I listened to maybe one inten Joe Rogan episodes,
depending on who's on.
Um and uh you know what, itdepends on like the mood I'm in.

(29:53):
So I'm just opening my app rightnow.
And if I like uh if I if I wantto take it easy, I'll put on
Theo Vaughn maybe for a Littlewhile and not be so because a
lot of this stuff stresses meout.
Um I uh I listen to our podcast,I listen to every episode of the
Ugly Pike podcast uh for tworeasons.
Number one, I want to I want toknow what I can do to be better.

(30:14):
I want to hear the things that Ifeel like work and that don't.
Chris never listens,coincidentally, which is a fun,
it's a fun kind of manifestationof how just how different we
are, him and I, but how cool theformula is and how it works.
Um and so yeah, I mean a fewmore, but that's that's
essentially it.
Um I also listened to our showbecause we have great guests and
I've learned from them.
Um and I want to I want to hearthe information after you know

(30:38):
you know the way it is.
Like we're gonna shut themicrophones off today, and then
we're gonna go we're gonna go,uh, I remember talking about
this and that, but not until welisten to it, we re we we get
the the good details and thegood points and the good good
parts about the episode that weloved and that sort of stuff.

SPEAKER_05 (30:51):
So 100%.
Who have some of your uh uh mostfavorite guests been?

SPEAKER_08 (30:57):
Yeah, oh man, there's been so many.
Um it's funny because uh so Iwas on I was recording with John
Anderson.
Uh he's a guide out of Ottawa,epic uh guide at Ottawa River
Muskie Factory, and he asked methe same question.
And and we've had, you know,we've had you know Joe Booker,
we've had Angelo Viola, we'vehad Al Linder, you know, we've

(31:21):
had really, we've had the thecream of the crop.
And I said, you know, one of myfavorite episodes was a guy
named Jerry Delay, Jerry andRyan Delay, and he's like, who
the who are they?
And I'm like, you know what?
This is like episode, like wehave a chunk, before you write
that down, we have a chunk ofepisodes that are not published
right now because they are theywere published, but when we

(31:42):
signed the deal with you guys,um, we have a different RSS
feed.
And when I went to activate ourold shows, a lot of them it
replaced this, and everyone waslike, oh, you know, everyone's
like, what happened?
Where'd all the shows go?
And so we had to kind ofdeactivate a cluster of like our
first 25 or so shows, andthey're in that cluster, right?
And these are in the days wherewe didn't, we hadn't yet, I

(32:03):
think, hit our stride, but we wehit gold.
So we're sitting at Andy MyersLodge up at Eagle Lake, and
we're talking to this dude.
And when I say dude, he's adude, he's got these stories,
and he is not put together well,but it's part of his charm,
right?
He's not not saying that as apejorative.
He he he's just a charming dudethat's in a bar, that's your

(32:24):
your buddy's uncle, that youknow, um, and he's with his son,
and we're just we just starttalking.
He's from Hayward, Wisconsin,okay?
So, you know, the muskie guysknow Hayward, Wisconsin is the
birthplace of muskie fishing,really.
And uh in the U.S.
And he just starts.
And I said, Chris, I said, hangon, because we were new.
I said, I'm gonna go get themicrophone.

(32:45):
And we put the microphone on andwe just let this guy go.
And it is such a wicked, wickedraw talk about a guy growing up
in Hayward, Wisconsin, and who'scame to love muskie fishing.
And one of the best stories hetells was he used to swim across
the lake with um, you know,Eppinger Daredevils.
He would tie them to his bigtoes with fishing line and swim

(33:09):
across the lake.
Now, think about that for asecond.
There's big fish in thesewaters.
This guy's that's how nuts thisguy is.
This story kind of embodies whothis guy is.
Um tear, your toe?
Yeah, no kidding.
What the hell?
You know, so this is kind of thethe embodiment of who this guy
was and why I was like, wait asecond, I gotta get the

(33:31):
computer, I gotta get themicrophones, let's go.
And uh that turned out to begood for me.
Oh man, it was so great.
It was such a cool, you know.
I could say, you know, I couldsay a lot of shows where we had
just like amazing information,brilliant minds, Pete Bossoman,
Daven Heinbeck.
Um, you know, um uh we just hadan episode with JP Bushy that's

(33:53):
been incredibly well received.
Uh we've had scientists andstuff like that.
But like when I think of likewhen I think of like my one of
my favorite episodes, it's justthe atmosphere of being in the
lodge, um, the way that cametogether.
And also, too, we did an episoderight maybe on that trip.
I think it was on that trip, wedid interview Steve Herbeck, and

(34:14):
um, you know, yeah, he's awealth of knowledge, and and he
told the story about his kneesknocking, like I said.
But, you know, to set the stage,we were at a cot on a cottage
right on the right on the banksof Eagle Lake.
You can hear the waterpractically hitting our front
door, and uh, you know, it wasdimly lit, and we had a bottle
of scotch in front of us, and hestarts telling stories, and you

(34:36):
know, this guy is so full ofjust raw emotion.
Like Steve is an old gruffangler.
You know, when I think of Steve,I think of Quinn from Jaws.
You know the story the night hetells the story on the boat
about the boat sinking and thesharks taking the guys, and he
was telling us a story likethat, and it was just, you know,
if there was thunder outside,the light bulbs would have been
flickering.

(34:56):
It was that kind of, you know,it was that kind of small,
intimate cabin dark with, youknow, we were drinking booze,
and and he was telling usstories, and he was some of his
stories had that delivery andthat kind of grit to it and that
authenticity to it.
And that was just an awesomemoment uh for us up on you know
one of the best musky lakes inthe entire world.
Um, dude, dude, there's amillion, I could tell you a

(35:17):
million stories, like for forhow I appreciate some of these
guests in these episodes.
But um, those those were some ofthe very best memories that I've
got so far, yeah, from doingthis.

SPEAKER_04 (35:27):
That's awesome.

SPEAKER_08 (35:28):
Pretty cool.

SPEAKER_04 (35:29):
That's awesome.

SPEAKER_05 (35:35):
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you need gear you can trust anda team that's got your back.
That's Lakeside Marine in RedLake, Ontario.
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(35:59):
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SPEAKER_02 (36:17):
Back in 2016, Frank and I had a vision to amass the
single largest database ofmuskie angling education
material anywhere in the world.
Our dream was to harness theknowledge of this amazing
community and share it withpassionate anglers just like
you.
Thus, the Ugly Pike Podcast wasborn and quickly grew to become
one of the top fishing podcastsin North America.

SPEAKER_08 (36:40):
Step into the world of angling adventures and
embrace the thrill of the catchwith the Ugly Pike Podcast.
Join us on our quest tounderstand what makes us
different as anglers and touncover what it takes to go
after the infamous fish of10,000 casts.

SPEAKER_02 (36:54):
The Ugly Pike Podcast isn't just about
fishing, it's about creating atight-knit community of
passionate anglers who share thesame love for the sport.
Through laughter, throughcamaraderie, and an unwavering
spirit of adventure, thispodcast will bring people
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Subscribe now and never miss amoment of our angling
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Tight lines, everyone.
Find Ugly Pike now on Spotify,Apple Podcasts, or wherever else

(37:17):
you get your podcasts.

SPEAKER_08 (37:26):
Don't ask me for spots.

SPEAKER_05 (37:27):
How do you deal with it?

SPEAKER_08 (37:28):
Don't ask me for spots.
I would ask you, never mind.
I haven't gotten a fish off theFrench River in my life yet.
And that's that's a thing.
When I when I fish with MattO'Brien, it's a thing now.
He's like, Yeah, I'm getting youyour first French River fish.

SPEAKER_05 (37:42):
I'm like, uh there you go.
Well, you have to come up andfish with me.

SPEAKER_08 (37:45):
Dude, as soon as the smoke clears on the home front
here and I have a little moretime free, like you're gonna
hate me.
I'm gonna be bugging you somuch.

SPEAKER_05 (37:52):
Hey, no problem.
No problem.
But no, this isn't a questionabout spots.
This is more important.
Yes.
Over the years, how do you andChris find and dream up new
content?
Yeah.
Ooh, what a great question.

SPEAKER_08 (38:09):
Um, well, there's two there's two answers.
Number one, musky fishing is uhit's almost like jujitsu in that
debates are always beinginnovated, techniques are always
being innovated, approaches arealways being innovated,
technology is being innovated.
And so as the years pass, likewe never used to talk about live

(38:30):
scope, the ethics of live scope.
We never used to talk about, youknow, um uh auto chart, which is
the single greatesttechnological tool, especially
that a trolling angler can use.
Um, it's an absolute godsend.
We so we can we're lucky that wecan tap the same, and we try not

(38:54):
to do too many likere-interviews too close
together, but there's just somany great people in this
community that we we have to goback to guys like Matt or you
know, guys like Angelo or guyslike whoever.
Um, and you can justre-integrate these topics, these
new topics, and get their takeson it.
Um, number two, we started doingum an episode.

(39:16):
We do them about once a month,and we call them Full Moon
Fridays, where we do a recap ofthe finer points of the
preceding three or fourepisodes.
Um, but the first few minutes ofthat episode is usually us
talking about um life.
And, you know, for example, Idon't remember it was maybe 20

(39:37):
or 30 episodes ago.
There was um uh the cover artsticks out on our wall and our
on our Instagram wall, it's alion.
And uh we we start talking aboutit, it was a picture Chris took
of a lion, and the opening storywas how he was in Africa the
week prior and um was terrifiedin his tent as a lion stalked

(39:58):
him for much of the night, andhe could hear the lion on the
other side of the tent, and hedidn't know if he should run to
it, where his family was in adifferent tent, just shitting
his pants.
And it's a really great story,it's riveting.
Um, and and you know, he talkedabout his his safari adventure,
but that lion story inparticular is is uh so cool.

(40:18):
And so, you know, we we talkabout, you know, sometimes we'll
talk about, you know, did youwatch UFC and stuff like that?
But it's usually about thingsthat are going on with our
lives.
And I think whether we're doingit right or not, because
sometimes we we see commentsonline.
It's like, what are you talkingabout?
What do you have here for muskyfishing?
Um uh number one, nobody pays mefor this, so I don't really care

(40:40):
what you say.
I don't give a shit, really.
Uh, and number two, I listen tothese other podcasts.
Um, I don't care when the all-inguys are talking about investing
tech business when they'reshooting the shit as buddies.
I love it because I've I'veconnected on some level with
these guys.
And I re I know that ouraudience has connected with us

(41:03):
on this level because I'veconnected with my audience on
this level.
I go to Unleash the Beast,Steve.
I see you there.
Um, I go to differenttournaments and outings, I fish
with different people, and wehave great bonds with these
people.
Um, and I know we have it likethat.
We get social media DMs everyday from listeners.
Uh I was talking to a guy lastnight, um, he's up north uh up
north uh moose hunting.

(41:23):
I don't know his name off thetop of my head, but uh you know,
he sent me a note, I don'tremember what it was, blah,
blah, blah.
And I was like, cool.
And I'm like, uh, he's like, I'mup north moose hunting, but yada
yada, fishing, fishing, fishing.
And I said, you know, great,thanks for the note.
That's cool, it's good.
But uh what the important thingis that you shoot a moose.
And so, you know, we end uptalking for a half hour last
night.

(41:44):
Um I think you have to come to apoint in your show where you
just kind of maybe believe thatyou have a good product.
I think we're there now aftermany years, after just not
knowing.
Um, and you just start sharingyour life and your thoughts and
treating your listeners liketheir buddies and that you've

(42:06):
connected with them on anintellectual level.
And I think that's gonna openthe door to giving you some
creative uh uh license and notjust always talking about
muskies 100% of the time.
We're talking about muskies 90%of the time.
Um, and the other 10%, you knowwhat?
Sometimes we just you know, andChris is on the other side of

(42:26):
the world.
Like sometimes the only time Iget to connect with him is when
the microphones are on.
Most of the time I only get toconnect him with them when the
microphones are on.
So that is kind of cool.
So there's an authentic dynamic.
It's not like we're sitting heregoing, you know, let's talk
about that thing we talked aboutlast week and let's pretend that
we didn't talk to each otherabout it.
That doesn't happen.
And so I think the takeaway is,you know, if you have a good

(42:50):
product and and you know what,you have some validation, and
again, you're treating peopleright.
It's not like someone's DMs meand I'm like, uh, you know, tune
into the show if you want theanswers.
It's not like that.
Um, then it allows us to kind ofstep out and and have license
with our creativity.
Um, we're planning a really coolshow to do a debate on record
keeping and musk in the Muskiecommunity with two people that

(43:13):
everybody knows their names.
Uh I'm not even gonna tease ituntil uh we get a solid
commitment, but we right now wehave yeses for both of them, and
it's gonna be a really coolepisode, and that's kind of
outside our formula too.
So step outside the formula, youknow, that sort of thing.
And uh that's that's what we'vebeen doing.
Those two things are they'repretty good, they're working

(43:34):
pretty good for us.

SPEAKER_05 (43:35):
That's great.

SPEAKER_08 (43:36):
That's a great answer.

SPEAKER_05 (43:37):
Because as a as a guy that's kind of in the same
uh, you know, in the same boat,like I'm uh I think actually
this uh this is gonna be episode120.
Wow.

unknown (43:48):
Right?

SPEAKER_05 (43:48):
Right on.
Yeah, it uh it um they they rollon.
They roll on.
And uh sometimes I struggle alittle bit with uh trying to
find what I perceive asexcellent content, right?
And um keeping up with life andeverything else, and and uh uh
we're both in the same boat whenit uh when when you start

(44:11):
talking about uh commitments andeverything else.
I really I really don't have anycommitments for this show other
than the commitment to thepeople that give me their time
in uh uh when they listen,right?
And and and I take that fairlyseriously.
Like, I mean, I want to justlike you, we want to provide a a

(44:33):
great product and wonderfulcontent.
And uh I uh it's funny.
Uh um lately I've I've done afew shows on uh entrepreneurs
and uh um how um uh people havethese wonderful stories of of
perseverance and uh anddedication and how they've built

(44:56):
their businesses because it tiesin with me with Chaudiere.
And um they're reaching out tome saying, hey, I'm a business
owner, I uh I producedsaddlebags and and uh it was uh
it was very tough and but Ipersevered.
Uh uh do you think that I thatyou should uh that that I would

(45:20):
be a good fit for your show?
Right?

SPEAKER_08 (45:22):
So I think if you think I think you you you have
to start thinking backwards to adegree where like it's not like
is this guy, is this saddlebag,is anybody interested in
saddlebags?
Well, maybe not, but like whenyou look at the jujitsu talk we
just had, I don't know how manypeople listening care, but like
we tie these lessons in thateverybody's interested in, how

(45:43):
to succeed, um, how to followyour dreams, how to have
confidence in yourself, how tolike if you all you need is
someone who can tell aninteresting story, and then you
can tell these, you can tie inthese life lessons that appeal
to 100% of a given audience.
Of everybody, and you know what,you just have to have the
delivery and the level ofengagement, and you do.

(46:04):
I mean, in space, this is agreat show, and uh you're a
great host.
And so, with that, I think ifyou kind of look at it a little
differently and say, you know,this is the subject, but the
lessons behind the subject areare the real good parts that
make a good show 100.

SPEAKER_05 (46:21):
Yeah, that's awesome.
Yeah, so listen, um, at thistime of the year, this is a very
uh this is a very exciting timeof the year for for muscle.
Yes, we're and and we arecurrently um at the end of
October.
I'm not even a hundred percentsure, probably around the 28th.

(46:43):
Actually, it's my little brotherAndy's birthday.
I gotta phone him after we getoff the show.
Happy birthday, Andy, by theway.
I know he'll never hear it onthis show because he doesn't
listen.
But as far as muskie fishinggoes, um, is this your favorite
time of the year to catch?

SPEAKER_08 (47:02):
Oh, there's no doubt.
Yeah, yeah.
If anyone says otherwise,they're not a musky fisherman.
I mean, like, look, is it myfavorite day time of year to be
out in a boat on the St.
Lawrence River?
Uh not really, because sometimesit's minus 20 and you freeze
your ass off.
But if you want, you know,there's look, there's two kinds
of there's two kinds of muskyanglers.
People that are out there forfish and people that are out

(47:23):
there for the fish.

SPEAKER_04 (47:25):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 (47:26):
People that are out there for fish, they can go all,
they can go to one of the easierlakes all year, wear a t-shirt,
whatever, have a great time, andcatch fish.
And that's cool.
I I have nothing against that,but that's not who I am.
And the guys we fish with, weare looking for the fish.
And the fish is going to becaught in in the cold weather
months.

(47:46):
Uh, and that's why we getexcited for the fall in the in
the early winter season, right?
The big females are putting thefeedback on, they're full of
eggs, you know.
And if you want to beat that,whatever, Ken O'Brien's fish, if
you consider that the record 65pounds or whatever that is, if
you want to beat that record,that's this is when you're gonna
get it.
And you know what, you better beon the St.

(48:06):
Lawrence, you better be onGeorgian Bay, you better be on
the Ottawa River, um, and maybeone or two other places.
But uh, yeah, that's why.
I mean, we're looking for thegiant fish.
Like we um we go, I I like tofish in the St.
Lawrence River in the coldweather months.
I I always take at least onetrip there.
I'm gonna be there in in acouple weeks.
And uh it's so funny because theSt.

(48:28):
Lawrence River is notorious,right, for like uh gun running
well, giants, but I'm talkinglike gun rug guns and drugs and
smuggling and right.
It's it's the freaking wild westover there.
So every time we're there in thewinter, first of all, we almost
always have a helicopter overtop of our boat for hours at a
time.

(48:49):
And we always get boarded onceonce uh once a trip, we get
boarded.
Like if we don't get boarded,we'll just because you're you
know, you know the way it is.
Like for muskie fishing, likewe're in a trance by the the
time, you know, by the the laterhalf by the time that the sun
goes down, you're in a trance.
Because you're even if you'retrolling, your body is burning

(49:10):
so many calories, just trying tostay warm, you're always working
the lines, it's freezing cold,you're exhausted, you're just in
a trance.
And I remember the one time Iwas with my buddy Alex, um uh
and Alex says, uh, Did you hearthat?
And I'm like, I didn't hearanything.
We just kind of and then I heardsomething, and I'm like, Did you
hear that?
And he's like, Yeah, I hearthat.
What is it?

(49:31):
And we turn around, and there'sthis tack boat, these dudes, all
tactical, black, and they gottheir hands on our gunnel, and
their boat is now attached toour boat, and they're all
looking at us.
And it's funny because, like,and we're just we just turn
around and look at them, we'relike, hey, and you can tell in
an instant they know who we are,like they know we're not who

(49:53):
they suspect we are, becausewe're just too sick idiots, you
know, staring.
They're watching now, watchingus for minutes, just sitting
there staring at our screen.
They see the tracks, you know,that we've kind of been in this
area for the whole time, justkind of waiting for the bait
fish to roll in and for the fishto strike.
And with you within a second,we're all kind of laughing at

(50:14):
each other and and you know,thanking the guys for looking
out for us, and uh, and thenaway they go on their way.
But um no way.

SPEAKER_05 (50:22):
So all drastically.

SPEAKER_08 (50:24):
These dudes this one time, these guys were all tacked
out.
Like sometimes we just get thenormal like uh RCMP or whatever
it is, but these guys were likeeverything was black.
Like we did not see them, wedidn't see them approach us, we
could barely see them at theside of our boat.
And uh that's gotta be a littlescary.
Firstly, yeah, it startles you,but when we're there, we kind of

(50:44):
you know, if that happened to meon Lake Nipissing, I'd probably,
you know, be a lot more uhuncomfortable with it.
But we kind of know what thedeal is there, especially with
the helicopters, they're alwayskind of they always got their
eyes on us, we can see.
And uh and it's it's wild.
But uh the that, you know, thethe St.
Lawrence and the Ottawa region,everyone's nuts over there.

(51:05):
Like the the fishermen are nuts.
That that's the craziestcorridor for musky anglers.
You know, they're the guys likeyou know, you hear the reports
of like people getting theirtrailers smashed if they're at
the wrong boat ramp.
And it's just they're dude,they're so weird over there.
They're all these old schoolMontrealers and Ottawa guys that
are just crazy about theirterritory.

(51:27):
It is so nuts over there.
It's not like anywhere else inthe province than it is over
there.
Um, I know guys get weird on St.
Clair too, but it's different.
I think on St.
Clair, people just go nutsbecause there's so many people
there and it and and everyone'sjust it's nuts over there, too.
On top of each other.
Everyone's on top of each other.

SPEAKER_05 (51:47):
So let's talk a little bit about this because
this is all new to me.
Like I fish muskies on theFrench River in Nippissang.
I very rarely travel aroundfishing muskie because why?
Right?
But these these nuances, soyou've got like totally crazy
people over on the St.
Lawrence over in Ottawa, andit's uh French English kind of

(52:09):
deal.
And then you're talking aboutSt.
Clair and what, like guys get alittle bit uh rowdy, or you
know, what's the deal?

SPEAKER_08 (52:17):
I only hear stories because I'm not a St.
Clair guy.
I fished there once and I had agreat experience.
It was with Mike Parker fromHandlebars Lures, who's like the
greatest guy, and uh we had atough day with him, but you know
what?
We pulled through at the end ofthe day.
Um yeah, from what I understand,I think it's a combination of
like the way you fish there.
Like guides will put six linesout and fish and and just zip

(52:41):
around.
Um, I think not everyone handlesfish very particularly well over
there because of for I think alot of reasons.
Number one, some some people,some some guideboats are just
not really equipped for reallygood water level releases.
Um, I think some people justdon't care because of the
numbers there.
Um and then I think it's the thefact that you're fishing on top

(53:03):
of each other.
Now I heard really good things.
We had a podcast uh just acouple weeks ago where one of
the guys was talking about likethe shore anglers at at St.
Clair on the Thames andeverything.
It's a pretty good brotherhoodand everybody takes care of each
other, and that was really coolto hear.
But I think a lot of the maniais driven by the the density
there, yeah.

(53:23):
And people trying to stay out ofeach other's way or not staying
out of each other's way, youknow.

SPEAKER_05 (53:28):
You I can I can see that totally because, like, I
mean, on the on the upperfringe, when I can see more than
two or three boats at a time onthe whole river, I start getting
irritated.
Yeah, and then down there Icouldn't imagine.
It's like a highway.
Yeah, well.
So there's a um a shorelinefishery down there.

SPEAKER_08 (53:49):
Guys are fishing muskies off the yeah, I want to
say it's the Thames River, but Icould be wrong.
But there's a pretty famous pierdown at St.
Clair where they're you'reyou're shoulder to shoulder.
Really?
Yeah, especially during like,you know, Dave Gray has the
muskie brawl down there.
And I think this year they have200 anglers registered because
there's a lot of there's a lotof money to be won at that
tournament.
It's a big, big, big tournament.

(54:11):
Uh, and so you know what you'llget, you know, 90% of the
anglers in boats or whateverthat number is, and then you got
a bunch of guys that still wantthat chase that money in that
payday that that are standing onthe shoreline.

SPEAKER_05 (54:21):
So it's it's uh are you allowed to fish live bait in
that?

SPEAKER_08 (54:25):
Oh, I'm sure you are.
I don't I don't know about inthat tournament because I'm
pretty sure you can't troll.
And I know they have drones thatyou know patrol, it's crazy.
Like this is crazy.
Um, he was talking about gettinga lie detector next year for the
winners.
Um but I don't know.
I'm sure I'm sure you can suckerfish, it's permissible there.
I don't know about thetournament.
I imagine maybe not.

(54:46):
I think I think maybe not, butI'm not sure.
Huh.
Right on.
Yeah, you just need a shadzilla.
It's it's like St.
Clair in the fall.
Yeah.
The Shadzilla and just do whateverybody else is doing, you'll
get a fish.
Or a bulldog.
Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_05 (54:58):
Yeah.
Yeah, great baits.
Real bad.

SPEAKER_08 (55:01):
Well, they're just synonymous.

SPEAKER_05 (55:02):
They've come out with a solid body now.

SPEAKER_08 (55:04):
It's awesome.
Yeah, I love it.
Um, but like for years, youknow, you've got now you got the
Warhammers and all sorts ofdifferent really cool, you know,
new rubber baits.
But like for years, it wasBulldogs and Shadzilla's on St.
Clair in the fall.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So yeah.
But yeah, Shadzilla's new uhsolid body.
Mike sent me uh a box and I'vebeen tossing them and I haven't

(55:24):
gotten a bit yet, but I just Ijust took one trip with it and
um it was the Sewell trip.
And you know, we learned prettyquickly that there was only one
bait that was working.
Well, there's two baits that wasworking during that that trip,
and we were so desperate for afish, we really just wanted to
go with what we saw was proven.
I had I had hit on a fish early,so we kept that lure on one rod,

(55:44):
and um, and then we had a guestthat said, like this particular
Dadson blade bait, you know, wewant something that's not heavy,
not sinking, because we want towe want to skim the five inches
of the water that's between theweeds and the air.
And so this was a specific bladethat Johnny Dadson had made for
this guide, and it was workingand it was perfect for the

(56:05):
terrain there.
Um, I mean, that's that'ssomething really to like a
learning point for the listenersis like if you're going on a
trip out of a lifetime likethis, talk to talk to the lodge
and talk to whoever, talk to,you know, if you have access to
a bait maker like Johnny orsomebody that's you know great
at making baits and see what'sgoing on up there because you
don't want to like track allthese baits to a spot and just

(56:28):
not be able to use them.
Like I have a lot of I have alot of heavy spinner baits that
I I uh I've gotten from Johnnyand and from Ben Duke over at uh
at Duke's Dozers.
Uh and I like heavy spinnerbaits because I like the shield
waters.
And you know, there's spots onthe French and on Nipissing
where when you're fishing humpsand stuff where you want you
want to get that bait down abit.

unknown (56:49):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 (56:49):
No, you're not fishing over a weed bed.
Uh, you know, sometimes you arethere, but there's a lot of rock
structure there.
Um and so I like those heavierspinners for the rock structure.
Um, and and I I I forgot myspinner baits.
I went up to Lacks Hall, Iforgot my my favorite baits.
It was a tray, it was sitting inmy garage.
And I I got up there, I wasmortified, and I said to my
wife, I said, Go to my fishingtable in my garage, take a

(57:10):
picture.
She sends it to me, and I'mlike, there it is, sitting
there.
So I had her freaking overnightit.
And now so by the time it gotthere, and the money I spent, by
the time I got there, I while itwas in transit, I learned that
almost none of the baits in thattray were gonna be useful to me.
Yeah.
So I wish I had learned thatlesson before I had left.

(57:31):
And um, so I think that's uhkind of a good lesson to learn
to share with the audience aboutyou know, doing your research.
And uh your lucky bait might notbe your lucky bait if you're
going to a uh a lake that has adifferent um, you know,
topography.
Yeah, and Sewell is verydifferent.
Sewell is, you know, every pointwe would we would we we we made

(57:52):
a joke about it.
It was like uh like that old uhNational Lampoons vacation movie
when they're stuck in theroundabout.
Look, kids, Big Ben Parliament,and they're doing that for like
nine hours and it gets dark andthey're still saying that.
Um but you get you get to uh apoint where um you you just
you're doing the same things.
And I'm gonna lie to you if I'mtelling you I didn't lose my

(58:14):
train of thought there.
I forget what I was gonna say.

SPEAKER_05 (58:18):
No, no.
You were we were talking aboutyour overnighting your bait and
um and um uh doing the researchand you know and it being a
great lesson, which like I mean,that is totally um uh a
wonderful lesson.
Yeah, and sometimes folks, youknow, when you've gone to a

(58:40):
place a few times and you'veseen the the the place, you
think you know it.
But listen, I lived on the sameplace for well over a decade,
and I still don't claim to knowit, right?
It's different day to day, weekto week.
And and even though you come thesame week every year, that

(59:03):
doesn't mean that it's the sameweek um as far as the fish are
concerned, because it there's alot of different factors that
play into where they're gonna beand how they're gonna react.
And not it's not just the firstweek of July, this is going to
be this, right?
Because number one, the weatheris different.

SPEAKER_08 (59:24):
Weather Trump's all for sure.
Um to finish, let me finish mythought because I got it back.
Um, we would pull up to a spotand it became a joke because I'd
say, you know, what does thisspot look like under the water?
And the guide would say, Well,it's a sandy loam that uh feeds
into a weed bed uh next torocks.
And that was like literally howthey described every single spot

(59:44):
that we fished on Luxool.
So getting back to the originalthought, and that is that
particular bait was ideallysuited for much of the structure
that we were targeting for thattrip.
And so had I known, I wouldn't,I would have literally brought
way less like nine.
90% less baits than I brought.

SPEAKER_04 (01:00:02):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 (01:00:03):
And you know, when you're paying these airlines,
they just nickel and dime youfor everything.
So it really matters when you'retraveling on a plane, which
which we were.
We were we flew to Thunder Bayand then drove into Suluco.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (01:00:15):
Yeah.
And what's that?
About a four-hour drive fromThunder Bay?

SPEAKER_08 (01:00:17):
Yeah, yeah.
If you're flying, yeah.
We did it about four and a halfhours.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (01:00:21):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 (01:00:22):
Very cool.
But it's a great, it's a great.
I mean, you've done it, right?

unknown (01:00:25):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 (01:00:26):
It's such an amazing uh you know, Trans-Canada
adventure.
It's so awesome.
It's such a oh yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (01:00:34):
Yeah.
We've not done the fly toThunder Bay.
We've driven from here all theway.
And, you know, like I mean, Ihad no the first time that I did
it, I was uh I was a kid, ummaybe 1920, and a good buddy of
mine, um, Eric uh Poole, uh, wedecided we were gonna go fish

(01:00:55):
Lake Nippigan.
Oh, cool.
Great fishing.
And um the the I had no cluewhat northern Ontario was, what
it looked like.
The furthest north at that pointI had been was like point of
barrel.
And to give you give uh the thethe listeners an idea, point of
barrel is you know three hoursum north of Toronto on Highway

(01:01:17):
69.
And and um and Lake Nipigan isum you know 14, 15 hours north.
And um we borrowed my boss'sboat, he had an old uh tri-hall
glass boat.
Um, and uh I had a 1989 DodgeDakota Sport.

(01:01:39):
And uh back in those days, gaswas real cheap down south.
So where we were, gas was cheap.
So uh we filled up, you know,four jerry cans full of gas for
the boat to throw in the back sowe didn't have to spend money on
the expensive gas up north.
Well, we drove straight toNippigan and Frank, we on that

(01:02:01):
with with my little truck, Istopped at every available gas
station.
And uh I I um stopped in thetown of Hearst, Ontario, gassed
up, and um uh it was it was atnight, and before we got to the
next gas station, I run out ofgas.

(01:02:22):
Like that, it's it's trees androcks up there on on the
highway.
And this is going back probably30 years, 25 years ago.
Less infrastructure.
Um, yeah, yeah.
Uh that but still, like I mean,there's a stretch there between
Hurst and Longlack where you seenothing but trees and rocks for
the better part of four hours.

SPEAKER_08 (01:02:42):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (01:02:44):
And and um those experiences are are
unbelievable.
That's the real north.
And um uh to to be inwilderness.
And I've had the I've had theluxury to travel uh quite a bit
uh across our country now withthe Fishing Canada television
show and drive out east anddrive up north.
And I'll tell you what, that umthat drive to um to Kenora uh

(01:03:09):
through Ontario is still thelongest drive that we do, and we
drive all the way to NovaScotia.

SPEAKER_08 (01:03:16):
Right, yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_05 (01:03:18):
Like you can drive to Nova Scotia faster than you
can drive to Kenora, Ontario.

SPEAKER_08 (01:03:24):
That is crazy.

SPEAKER_05 (01:03:25):
But yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 (01:03:27):
So I will say, real quickly, well we're on this
topic, and I'm trying to find apicture to show you here.
Um, once you get to Sault Ste.
Marie and you head west, it isthat is my favorite leg of that
drive.
And oh, it's gorgeous.
Parts of it where it looks likeyou're not even in Canada
almost, right?
Where you get these weird,almost mountainous terrains.

(01:03:48):
This was coming down.
So I took this picture.
This was the night that theTragically Hip were doing their
final show, and it was broadcaston the CBC radio, and uh, we
were flying to get to um uh tothe Sioux so we could get into
our hotel and watch the rest ofthe concert.
And I'm a massive hip fan, likemassive, and it was a sad night.

(01:04:10):
It was a sad night for me, andyou know, I was just sitting in
my my cousin's van just with myheadphones on, listening to the
concert and really gloomy drive,and and but man, it was so
dramatic, you know.
That drive from from fromThunder Bay to the Sioux is just
it's it's a thing, man.
It's just everybody, everyCanadian needs to do that once

(01:04:31):
in their life.
It it'll change you.

SPEAKER_05 (01:04:34):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, especially when you'realong Lake Superior and you come
out and you can see the lake,and then you're back in the
bush.
And uh and and you saymountainous terrain.
You're right.
There's there's uh um not rockymountains, but like I mean
they're big rock outcroppings.

SPEAKER_08 (01:04:54):
Yeah, put on some Gordon Lightfoot.
Put on some Gordon Lightfoot andmake that drive at night and see
what happens.

SPEAKER_05 (01:05:00):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
So listen, Frank, um lastquestion.
Um what's up for you next?
Like, where are you setting yourtargets?
Are you are you basically uhstill focused on uh everything
we talked about, which is a lot,or do you have uh do you have

(01:05:20):
any any new aspirations on thehorizon?

SPEAKER_08 (01:05:23):
Uh well with the show, we you know, we we don't
know what's happening with theshow from a an affiliate
standpoint.
Um I'm hoping I, you know, wecan we can talk with Angelo and
and have a talk about ourfuture.
And you know what?
I don't know if it means we stayon board or we we we go our own
separate ways and uh whateverthe case is, I think we're we'll

(01:05:44):
we'll all be happy and we'll allbe friends and yeah and it'll be
uh uh a positive development.
Um the show is the show is on agreat trajectory, and uh we're
not gonna mess with the formulatoo much.
Uh uh yeah, man, I don't know.
I I have a young family, reallyfocused on my young family right
now.
Um, and I want to buy a place.

(01:06:07):
You know I want to buy a place.
I I want to, you know, I just Ireally really grapple with it,
you know.
Like I feel like I need to,like, I set this goal so long in
my life, and I want to get acottage, and and and then
sometimes I feel like like Iwould love to be tied to

(01:06:27):
Nipissing French River.
I it's my favorite place in theworld.
I don't there's nowhere I lovegoing more than that.
That is where my dad would flyme up.
We my dad was a recreationalpilot.
We would always pile in and goto Lake Nipissing.
That's where I learned how tofish.
Well, one of the places Ilearned how to fish.
The other was in in um uh justuh south of Ottawa.

(01:06:48):
Um and and other parts of mewant to, you know, just has
like, why not just go and rentand this and that?
But like I really feel like Iwant a place, and uh I don't
know if I'm gonna be able to doit right now.
I I've got a great opportunityin front of me, and uh I had a
good call about it today, Steve.
I just yeah, this is what I'mreally wrestling with.

(01:07:11):
So like what's what's in it forme is I gotta deal with this
situation and I gotta figure outwhat I want to do with this
particular opportunity in frontof me.
And if I take it, okay, and if Idon't, also okay.
But um I wanna I wanna get aplace, I wanna put a podcast
studio on the water and bringanglers in and do our show from

(01:07:34):
the water, these great Canadianwaters, and really have a have a
Mecca for Ugly Pike.
Um it's so weird, you know.
This is not like we don't makemoney doing this, you know?
Like we've had sponsors, butthat's we've kind of put that on
hold until we understand kind ofwhat our relationship's gonna be
going forward with with theproduction company.
Um, and that'll come back.
We're gonna we'll we'll take uhsponsors again in the near

(01:07:57):
future.
But like I've got these allthese big plans revolve around
the show and fishing.
It's almost like like I've gotsome really big deals lined up
in my business life and myentrepreneur life, but like my
priority really is fishing andthe show, and and I really
believe that we can do reallygreat things.

(01:08:17):
Um, I I feel like we are thisbig with the show, and I think
we can be really big with theshow.
Not that we ever aspired tothat, but I just have a feeling
that something really big isgonna happen with us.
I just I can't shake thefeeling, and I know Chris feels
the same way, and it's why wehaven't stopped doing it amidst
all the inconveniences andlining up the time zones, and

(01:08:40):
this um guest just bailed on usin the yada yada.
I just feel in my gut that thisshow is a rocket waiting to
explode.
Um, I just I don't know.
I just feel it.
And so we we we won't stop, wewon't stop trying to make it
better, and we won't stopnetworking, and we won't stop uh
taking opportunities.

(01:09:00):
It's just something that I feellike I just I have no reason to
feel this, I just feel that way.
And so that's what I'm that'swhat I'm looking for in the
future, really.

SPEAKER_05 (01:09:12):
That a boy, that a boy, Frank Angaro, ugly pike.
Uh, folks, head on over andlisten to him there, part of the
Outdoor Journal Radio PodcastNetwork.
And um, Frank, this has been awonderful conversation.
Thank you so much for joining ustoday.

SPEAKER_08 (01:09:30):
Steve, you are a class act and someone I'm uh
really happy I got to know, andsomeone that's uh in my life
that I value, even though wedon't talk every day.
But when we do talk, man, it'salways a true pleasure.
So thank you.

SPEAKER_05 (01:09:44):
Well, thank you.
Thanks for yesterday.
I appreciate it.
Thanks for the counsel.
I appreciated that.
Uh the pleasure is all mine.
All right, man.
You know that.
Um, and uh folks, listen, I wantto thank all of you for getting
to this point.
Really appreciate you listening.
And um, throw out a like,subscribe, all that funky stuff.
I'm not exactly sure where tofind it.

(01:10:06):
Uh, but uh hey, if you find asubscribe button and you can
subscribe, wonderful.
That's great.
And uh any questions, uhcomments, you know where to get
me.
Steve.n at fishingcanada.com.
And uh uh while you're thinkingabout that, you can head on over
to fishingcanada.com and get inon all the free giveaways.

(01:10:27):
And uh I want to thank some veryspecial people up at Lakeside
Marine in Red Lake, Ontario.
Folks, if you're in NorthernOntario, you've got to stop and
have a chat with uh with thefolks over there.
They're wonderful.
And uh the customer service issecond to none.

(01:10:47):
And uh uh my little buddy Nixonout there who listens to the
show and uh and uh he uh hefalls asleep to my voice, and
I'm not sure whether that's agood thing or a bad thing, but
night night Nixon.
And uh thus brings us to theconclusion of another episode of
Diaries of a Lodge Owner,Stories of the North.

SPEAKER_06 (01:11:10):
I'm a good old boy, never meaning no harm.
I'll be the whole you ever saw.
I've been reeling in the hogsince the day I was born.
Bendin my rum.
Sven my mind.
Someday I might on a lodge andhow'd be fine.

(01:11:36):
I'll be making my way, the onlyway I know how.
About a lodge and live my dream.
And now I'm here talking abouthow life can be as good as it

(01:11:59):
seems.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:12:07):
Hi, everybody, I'm Angelo Viola.
And I'm Pete Bowman.
Now you might know us as thehosts of Canada's favorite
fishing show, but now we'rehosting a podcast.
That's right.
Every Thursday, Ann and I willbe right here in your ears,
bringing you a brand new episodeof Outdoor Journal Radio.
Hmm.
Now, what are we gonna talkabout for two hours every week?
Well, you know there's gonna bea lot of fishing.

SPEAKER_09 (01:12:28):
I knew exactly where those fish were going to be and
how to catch them, and they wereeasy to catch.

SPEAKER_03 (01:12:34):
Yeah, but it's not just a fishing show.
We're going to be talking topeople from all facets of the
outdoors, from athletes, all theother guys would go golfing.

SPEAKER_09 (01:12:42):
Me and Garkin Turk, and all the Russians would go
fishing.
The scientists.
But now that we're reforestingand letting things, it's the
perfect transmission environmentfor line.

SPEAKER_07 (01:12:54):
Chefs, if any game isn't cooked properly, marinated
for you will taste it.

SPEAKER_03 (01:12:59):
And whoever else will pick up the phone.
Wherever you are, OutdoorJournal Radio seeks to answer
the questions and tell thestories of all those who enjoy
being outside.
Find us on Spotify, ApplePodcasts, or wherever you get
your podcasts.

SPEAKER_00 (01:13:16):
As the world gets louder and louder, the lessons
of our natural world becomeharder and harder to hear.
But they are still available tothose who know where to listen.
I'm Jerry Oulette, and I washonored to serve as Ontario's
Minister of Natural Resources.
However, my journey into thewoods didn't come from politics.

(01:13:39):
Rather, it came from my time inthe bush and a mushroom.
In 2015, I was introduced to thebirch-hungry fungus known as
Chaga, a tree conch, withcenturies of medicinal use by
indigenous peoples all over theglobe.
After nearly a decade ofharvest, use, testimonials, and

(01:14:00):
research, my skepticism hasfaded to obsession.
And I now spend my lifededicated to improving the lives
of others through natural means.
But that's not what the show isabout.
My pursuit of the strangemushroom and my passion for the
outdoors has brought me to theplaces and around the people
that are shaped by our naturalworld.

(01:14:21):
On Outdoor Journal Radio's Underthe Canopy podcast, I'm going to
take you along with me to seethe places, meet the people that
will help you find your outdoorpassion and help you live a life
close to nature and under thecanopy.
Find Under the Canopy now onSpotify, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever else you get yourpodcasts.