Behind Closed Doors: Single Muslims and Porn w/ Dr. Fahad Khan

Let’s be real, porn is everywhere. And yes, Muslims are watching it too, way more than anyone admits. In this episode, we sit down with Dr. Fahad Khan, a clinical psychologist and an expert in Islamic psychology. We talk about why so many singles fall into it, how hard it’s become to get married, and how that mix messes with the mind, the heart, and even real attraction.

Whether you’ve struggled with it or you’re worried the person you’re talking to might be, this episode peels back the silence with an honest look at what’s happening and what it means for all of us trying to build real connections in a post-modern world.

For help and support visit Kahlil Centre.

If something we said made you think, laugh, or feel seen, leave us a rating and review! It helps more people find the show. And hey, if you know someone who needs to hear this episode, send it their way. Sharing is caring!

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Asalamu alaikum.
I'm Hibb.

SPEAKER_00 (00:02):
And I'm Zaid.

SPEAKER_02 (00:03):
You're listening to Diary of a Matchmaker.

SPEAKER_00 (00:05):
A podcast that will take you into our world as
matchmakers.

SPEAKER_02 (00:09):
We'll share our experiences and offer advice for
the single Muslim.

SPEAKER_00 (00:12):
So let's dive in.
Welcome to another episode.
So when I moved to Chicago fromthe UK, I was around the age of
eight.
And when I first moved, one ofthe first things that my mom

(00:36):
started looking for was uh anIslamic school and uh and a
local masjid.
And uh when we found one, one ofthe first things I came across
was a flyer of somebody teachingQur'an class.
So instantly my mom signed me upand I enrolled in this Quran
class, and uh, and the Imamthere at the time was I think he

(00:57):
had just started teaching Quranthere, and I think he was just
hired there as the Imam.
And um I was one of the firststudents, and I was with him for
so long.
Uh alhamdulillah, he carried meall the way from the Arabic
alphabet to memorizing somechapters from the Quran.
But I also remember somebody whoelse who was in that class too
that was much older.
I was also doing hips at thetime, and I found out that that

(01:20):
was actually my Quran'steacher's son.
And uh lo and behold, thatperson with us today is our
guest, Dr.
Fahad Khan.
Um, many years later, now itturns out he's he's a guest on
our podcast.
So we're honored to have him.
So as salamu alaikum.

SPEAKER_01 (01:38):
How are you doing?

SPEAKER_00 (01:39):
Alhamdulillah, alhamdulillah.
We're excited about thisconversation.
It's a hot topic, uh, but we'rereally excited to dive in.
So, a quick background uh Dr.
Fahad Khan is an academicresearcher, uh clinical
psychologist specializing in theintegration of faith and mental
wellness through the field ofIslamic psychology.
His professional work isdedicated to advancing mental

(02:00):
health within Muslimcommunities.
He has served uh as the deputydirector at the Khalil Center,
the largest provider of Muslimmental health services in the
West, where he supervisedclinical and research work.
His background also includes uhteaching at various academic
institutions in the UnitedStates.
He is a fellow of theInternational Association of
Islamic Psychology and activelycontributes to the field by

(02:23):
serving on the editorial boardsof several peer-reviewed
journals.

SPEAKER_02 (02:27):
Mashallah.

SPEAKER_00 (02:29):
So the topic itself, well, let's talk about the
searching for a spouse.
We know, you know, especiallyhere in the West, I don't know
what the situation is much likein the Middle East, but in the
West, the search has become moreand more difficult uh over the
years, trying to find a spouse.
And I feel it's just myassumption that as a result,

(02:49):
pornography has also risen inthe Muslim community.
Do you feel like there is acorrelation there there?
Or is that and is this problembeing discussed in Muslim
circles?

SPEAKER_01 (03:00):
Yeah, so um salah alhamdulillah, again.
Uh I just want to um I thinkit's important to preface the
issue here.
The issue is is more complex andprobably larger than just
pornography or issue of gettingmarried.
Because um, you know, like youwere saying, it's it has become
difficult to get married, whichcontributes to pornography
consumption, but pornographyconsumption also contributes to

(03:23):
difficulties in getting marriedor even desire to get married.
Um I think the world that we'vewe kind of live in now as
compared to the world before,there are certain things that
have changed, certain factorsthat um contribute to this, all
of these issues that we're we'rejust uh addressing right now,
including these two especially.
Um so for example, we are uhwe're living in a very

(03:45):
materialistic, consumeristicworld where fulfilling your
desires, um, you know,subjective feelings, um, you
know, it's called the post-truthera because everyone has their
own truth.
Um, you know, this postmodernworld where like, you know,
there are no clear objectivedefinitions anymore.
Everyone has their owndefinition, right?
What's healthy, what'sunhealthy, what's good, what's

(04:07):
bad, you know, my good can beyour bad, and and vice versa.
Uh, this is obviously against uhthe values of Islam, but what
that has done, or one of thebyproducts of this uh world that
we live in is that um, you know,we're just used to uh pleasing,
to making ourselves happy,whatever that takes, right?
And so um uh now this has to dowith um pornography, because uh

(04:32):
uh you know pornographyconsumption has to do with
obviously uh pleasure and anddopamine release, and and I
think we'll probably talk aboutit a little bit later.
But on the other hand, marriageum is difficult.
Marriage requires work.
I mean, you've been married fora while, I've been married for
uh 16 years now.
So we know that it's you knowit's not easy, and there are
times in our relationship wherethings get very challenging.

(04:52):
So I think that's where theissue uh uh comes up is that uh
in this day and age, peopledon't want to put in the effort.
So that also leads to people notwanting to get married.
And pornography becomes this wayto kind of deal with um the
loneliness the person mightfeel, the sadness they might
feel, uh just to get some quickuh dopamine fix that they need.
Uh we don't talk about itbecause I think for for many

(05:15):
reasons.
Uh one, primarily because it's ait's a personal issue, right?
It's a private matter.
Uh like when we do maritalcounseling with Muslims, um, you
know, it's difficult to discussintimacy issues, which is a very
big very huge contributor tomarital problems.
But why?
Because it's a personal matter,like it's difficult.
Not that we shouldn't talk aboutit, but I think that's a that's
a one reason why we don't talkabout it.

(05:35):
And the other is because itbrings a lot of shame to people.
Um, you know, it's easier forsomeone to talk about their um
smoking cigarettes, for example,than like pornography addiction,
right?
Yeah.
Um so that's probably why wedon't talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 (05:48):
Okay.
How how common is pornographyconsumption in the Muslim uh
community?

SPEAKER_01 (05:53):
So I think if we define it, like um if we're
talking about uh looking atpornography, which almost has
become a norm.
So any TV show, every TV showpretty much, uh things on like
uh social media, TikTok, I mean,there's pornographic material
there, right?
Because again, like we'relooking at from the lens of uh
Muslims, right?
For us, it's not just likepeople who don't who are not

(06:16):
wearing clothes or who areengaged in sexual acts.
I mean, like anything that'sbeyond what we're allowed to
look at, like it becomes an areaof haram for us.
And there's a reason becauseIslam has rules that are
supposed to prevent people fromgetting to the the bigger sins
here, right?
In this case, Zina.
So um anything beyond, like Isaid, you know, if I'm looking

(06:37):
at a photo of a woman, even withany kind of uh like lustful um,
you know, thoughts or or uhunderlying drives, then I think
that that becomes a problem.
So I think everyone engages inthat, probably on a regular
daily basis, multiple times aday.
Then you have like pornographythat's uh becomes part of TV
shows.
Like, you know, the most popularuh TV shows in the in the last

(06:59):
like 15 years was Game ofThrones, right?
So it had heavy pornographicmaterial.
That's one of the reasons why Ididn't like the show, uh,
violence and pornography.
It almost normalized it, right?
So um, and then people justifylike, oh, this is why, and you
know, it's a good show, whateverthe reason might be.
So we've become um uhdesensitized to even that type
of material.
And then we have people who uhdeliberately, intentionally, and

(07:22):
that those are the people thatyou're probably referring more
to.
They go in and they talk about,they look at pornography, or
they spend hours upon hours.
So in our clinical work, I thinknearly everyone, I mean, I would
say like a vast majority, like Iwould say at least if I don't
have the exact numbers, but Iwould say probably 60 to 70
percent of people do look atpornography intentionally.
Um, obviously the number is highwith uh certain population,

(07:45):
right?
So like people who aredepressed, people who are more
lonely, the younger ones uh, youknow, who may um uh have uh more
exposure to things that kind ofdrives them to do that.

SPEAKER_02 (07:56):
Wow, so and if we want to exclusive exclusively
talk about addiction, pornaddiction, are there like any
studies about um how common itis in the Muslim community?

SPEAKER_01 (08:07):
Um not that I'm aware of, but I I I can tell you
it's pretty common.
I think it is common.
Um and um and the other thingagain, it's uh we have to
recognize that uh having becausewe all of us have some form of
addictions, right?
So like uh yes, pornography isprobably worse than someone
who's addicted to social media,right?
Just consumption or or justhaving your phone.
Like phone has a there'saddiction to that as well.

(08:29):
Some people are addiction todrinking coffee, right?
Like there's different forms ofaddiction.
I think at the core level, if welook at our uh human psyche and
what makes us human, everyaddiction is bad because you're
feeding the nafs.
But obviously, pornography hasother repercussions as well.
So, you know, I don't want tonormalize it uh pornography, but
I also want to uh recognize thataddictions in general are bad

(08:49):
for us as humans and as thosewho are supposed to be the
representatives of Allah on thisearth.

SPEAKER_02 (08:55):
Yeah, I was just telling Zaid before the
interview that like a thoughtthat goes into any single
woman's mind when she'ssearching, and even men, but I
think more for women, is is theperson I'm talking to addicted
to porn?
How can I tell?
Like, are there red flags?
Are there like uh signs to lookfor?

SPEAKER_01 (09:13):
Yeah, I mean the thing is um I think uh um I mean
you you do this forprofessionally, like for a
living.
When you're searching for umsomeone to get married to, this
is a process that requires a lotof seriousness and maturity,
right?
This isn't like dating.
Like in I think we've kind of uhum uh I would say confused, you
know, um uh like marriage orsearching for a spouse to

(09:34):
dating.
Because in dating, in anAmerican culture or Western
culture, you're just kind offooling around.
You just have someone and youknow, like okay, maybe they make
you feel good and you enjoy eachother's company, and that's it.
Like there's no commitmentthere.
It's not, you know, with with uhlike this commitment you have to
Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala,right?
And so when we look at when wesearch for a potential marital

(09:55):
uh uh you know spouse, anindividual that we're we want to
commit to, that's a very seriousprocess.
So as part of the conversation,I think there has to be
conversation about pornography,right?
Um now a lot of people come tome and ask me like if someone is
addicted to pornography or looksat pornography, not even
addicted to because addictionrequires like some level of
commitment and you know if youcan't stay away from it.

(10:16):
Um and it's not easy todetermine that uh with
pornography.
But if they look at pornography,what should I do?
Should I marry them or not?
My answer usually is um that youhave to find out what they're
doing about it, right?
So if someone is, for example,look, let's look at someone
who's struggling with weight,right?
They're overeating or theydon't, you know, can't lose
weight.
If they're going to the gymevery week, they're trying, but

(10:37):
they're still maybe strugglingevery day.
That's a better person thansomeone who just says, I don't
care, you know, whatever, right?
That mindset is unhealthy, I'mmindset.
So someone who uh looks atpornography, uh knows that it's
haram, doesn't like it, works onit, constantly is is in the
process and in this uh, youknow, and the doing this jihad
of their nafs, uh, that personis a very noble individual in my

(11:00):
eyes, even though they'recommitting that sin every single
day.
But if someone is like, so what?
You know, what's the big deal?
It's the same thing with Game ofThrones.
If people were like, so what'sthe big deal?
You know, it's a TV show, it's afun, and it's it.
Well, no, it's not that.
Like, you have to take itseriously.
That's a very like seriousoffense and issue.
So if someone has that kind ofmindset, that's more dangerous
than someone who looks at it butat you know still works on

(11:22):
themselves.

SPEAKER_00 (11:23):
Yeah, I feel like this um whether it's an
addiction or somebody who's justwatching it, um, it's one of
those subtle things that youcan't really determine because
to an extent, it doesn't really,or maybe I could be wrong about
this, it doesn't impact your wayto function in society, right?
Like people have jobs and andthey go about their normal

(11:44):
lives, but it's one of thosethings where it's just it's
hidden.
And um I come across stories allthe time where sometimes like
the wife would find out becauseshe would just randomly uh go
through her husband's searchbrowser or something like that,
right?
So it's it's really hard todetermine whether you're going
through the courting phase oreven if you're married, um, to

(12:05):
tell is this person consumingporn?
Are they not?
So aside from just askingquestions, are there other ways
to kind of uncover this ordetermine that?

SPEAKER_01 (12:17):
No, like you said, it's really hard because it's
it's oftentimes something eventhe individual is engaging in.
Um, because if you think aboutit, like some of the addictions,
for example, if someone isaddicted to using drugs, for
example, right?
Um, they'll uh, you know, likeif they're smoking marijuana,
they'll smoke marijuana in theircar, they'll smoke marijuana in
their house, in their room, inthe garage, wherever.

(12:37):
But if someone is is uh addictedto pornography, oftentimes they
are doing it in closed rooms, indark places, because there's a
sense of shame.
They're even hiding it fromthemselves because of the
immense amount of shame that itbrings to these individuals, the
guilt that they feel.
So it's not something that uhpeople are usually aware.
So this the symptoms are notreally, you can't look at

(12:59):
someone and say, oh, that personis a determined to you know
pornography.
That's that's not easy todetermine.
You might look at someone whouh, you know, is high and they
can tell, oh, this person islike looks like he's high the
way he's talking, or you know,looking at uh maybe their pupils
are constricted, so they mightthey might be on stimulants or
something, you can kind of seesome signs and symptoms, but
pornography is not reallyvisible, you know, it's not

(13:20):
something you can determine.
That's why the conversation isreally important, and that's why
the maturity has to be theretoo.
Because let's let's face it, youknow, uh I we all know this is a
common problem.
If a person isn't ready toadmit, at least say, hey, I do
struggle with it, that I mean noone's gonna outright come and
say I have an addiction to it,but if you're having the
conversation and they say, Yes,I struggle with it, and I am

(13:40):
working on it, I need to work onit, you know, I think that shows
sign of maturity, right?
So if the person doesn't say it,if if if anyone listening to
this, watching this, isstruggling with pornography, if
you can't express the problem tosomeone that you're about to
marry, then there's a there's abigger issue here.
Then you don't have the maturityto own, you know, because
eventually they'll find out.
I mean, this is something thatyou can't keep hidden for long,

(14:02):
especially if you're living withsomeone 24 hours a day.

SPEAKER_00 (14:05):
It makes sense.
I mean, the the problem is thatsometimes the attitude towards
this problem is that I'll stoponce I get married.
And from your experience, doesmarriage actually solve the
problem, or can it make itworse?
And um and how how is thatsituation dealt with?

SPEAKER_01 (14:25):
Yeah, so um the thing is um okay, just a little
just kind of taking a step back.
Whenever we take some um factor,some event, something into
consideration, there are thingsthat are associated with it, uh
factors that may contribute toit, and there are things that
have a direct relationship withit, right?
So for example, just becausesomeone is single doesn't mean

(14:45):
they're going to be looking atpornography or they have the
justification to do so.
However, being a single is afactor, right?
Because they don't have a halalway to uh, you know, be intimate
with someone.
And after they've reached thethe age of maturity, they
obviously there's aphysiological drive that's
there, right?
So that does contribute to umthis problem of pornography.

(15:07):
Similarly, I uh just becausesomeone is has pornography
addiction doesn't mean theyshould get married, and that's
going to be the solution to it,but it can be a factor that
helps them.
Do you see what I'm saying?
So, you know, certainly likeI've, you know, when I work with
individuals who um hadpornography addiction and they
were married, or they gotmarried and their spouse found

(15:27):
out, um, you know, we we kind oftalked about what role does
intimacy play?
Having a spouse on board sayingthat, you know what, uh, I this
person's married to me.
It's their huck, you know, tohave intimacy with me.
And uh perhaps they'restruggling.
And if they have certain timesthat they have urges and I can
make myself available, I mean,there's nothing wrong with it.
I think people when when peopletalk about this, they have this

(15:48):
thing about, oh, well, it's notmy problem.
No, no, when you get married,it's our problem.
Whether you like it or not, Imean, it it you it is going to
affect you, right?
You can you can try to back outof it, but there's no way out of
it.
So if you say like it's ourproblem, let's see what we can
do as a team.
Okay, what can I do for my wifeor my husband who's struggling
with this if I can make myselfavailable?

(16:10):
I've seen those people recoverbetter.
They have a much healthierrelationship, they're able to
overcome this issue because theyhave their spouse that's on
board.
So I'm saying that because beingmarried can be helpful, but that
doesn't mean that you know, ifyou if it's a severe problem,
you're struggling with it, youhave no control over it, that
you think uh when you getmarried that it's gonna go away.
That doesn't usually happen.

SPEAKER_02 (16:31):
I'm glad you mentioned when you said, what
can I do for my husband?
What can I do for my wife?
Now, when we think aboutpornography addiction, we
immediately think of men, butI'm sure it also affects women.
But does it affect womendifferently than men or just the
same pattern?

SPEAKER_01 (16:48):
So on the on a uh like a broader level, any
addiction, especiallypornography addiction in this
case, affects the the rewardpathway in your brain, right?
Because you get this like hit ofdopamine.
Now that has a like largereffect on your life in general.
For example, people become moreimpulsive.
You know, the ability to thinkabout consequences, postpone,

(17:09):
um, you know, delaygratification, right?
These are issues that that comeabout as the as a result of
pornography.
That um uh impulsive behavior,uh, because people can't control
themselves, also leads toemotional problems, right?
They get angered easily,frustrated easily, for example.
They can't find thingspleasurable in life, right?
Things that normally otherwisethey enjoyed or normal people

(17:30):
would enjoy, people who don'thave any kind of addictions.
For these individuals, theirbrain is so used to getting that
hit.
I mean, imagine if you're usedto eating like uh good food
every day, right?
You're eating restaurant stylefood, then you don't like your
home cooked food, right?
Like your mom's doll or orwhatever beans don't, they don't
they don't give you that same uhkick because that's how it is,
right?
Uh but normal people, that's notnormal, right?

(17:52):
Most people would be eating homeevery day or most of the days,
and maybe occasionally you mighteat out, right?
Uh indulge.
So it this the system is kind oflike hijacked in that manner.
So that affects both men andwomen, right?
It's I don't think if there'sany like difference when it
comes to those types of effects.
Um uh and and uh the other thingwith pornography is that uh it's

(18:12):
affects on intimacy.
So if you're married, forexample, or when you do get
married, the ideas that you haveabout intimacy, the things that
would uh otherwise be uh normalfor individuals to feel pleasure
from, you no longer feel thatpleasure.
Uh, right.
So that again, your yoursensitivity or your need for
that dopamine or whatever it isthat you know it get it
increases, so it ends upaffecting your your physical

(18:35):
intimacy with your spouse.

SPEAKER_02 (18:36):
SubhanAllah, like if you want to think about it like
Islamically from like an Islamicpoint of view, it's like when
you sought something that'sagainst uh Allah's command, then
Allah robbed you the ability toenjoy what was like permissible
and what's halal.
Is is this right?

SPEAKER_01 (18:54):
Or my yeah I mean, okay, if we look at like um the
you know, let's look at humanontologies, human beings, who we
are, right, as human beings.
So um we exist in this dunya.
As part of our existence in thisdunya, we have um, for the lack
of better words, animalisticqualities to us, right?
So we have the need forsleeping, eating, you know,
pleasure, there's aggression inus, right?

(19:16):
Um so Imam Ghazali will talkabout like the four categories
of qualities, uh characteristicsthat people have.
So there's like angelicqualities, there's satanic
qualities, and then there'sanimalistic qualities.
Uh, you know, one of thoseanimals that engage in like
grazing and eating, sleeping,you know, sexual desire.
Then there's aggressive animals,right?
Who are trying to overcome lionsand you know, tigers, things

(19:37):
like that.
So all that exists as part ofwho we are in this dunya, right?
And that's where shaitan comesin and knows these weaknesses
and tempts us, right, with a lotof different things.
Um, so part of being a human,part of being a Muslim, is that
we recognize that.
Like I live in this dunya, Ihave these struggles, these
struggles will always be there.
This is part of who I am.

(19:57):
That's why when we discuss thenafs, we know that the nafs uh
uh, you know, persons can havecontrol over their nafs, but it
it is not something you maintainforever.
Your nafs can change uh, youknow, sometimes multiple times a
day or moment to moment.
One moment you have fullcontrol, the other moment you
have lost your control.
There's a story of uh like aSufi Sheikh who was walking uh
and then he saw someone on thestreet, someone who was engaged

(20:20):
in sinning.
I think he was maybe drinking orsomething, and you know, and he
has this dialogue with him, andthe person says to the sheikh,
he says, you know, if um can Ibe like you, right?
And like meaning you're so uhhonor honored and and this is a
righteous individual who's asheikh, and he says, Yes, in the
blink of an eye, if Allah willsit, right?
And then he says, Well, can yoube like me?
And he said, Yes, if Allah willsin the blink of an eye, right?

(20:42):
Meaning our our nafs can changemoment to moment, right?
We can go from being the mostpious to being a sinner and then
back to the being being piousagain.
So that's how we are created.
That's that's part of ourexistence, and part of our
jihad, and this is what Imentioned earlier, jihad, this
is called the great jihad,right?
This is more uh difficult thanthe physical jihad that uh you

(21:04):
know that the people engage in,is that we we have that
self-control and we're able touh monitor and tame our nafs and
to use it for them, uh, forthings that are beneficial,
things that are righteous.
Um, and that's fulfilling ourdestiny and that's fulfilling
our oath with Allah subhanahu wata'ala.

SPEAKER_00 (21:22):
Yeah, I was going to say that, you know, of course,
not everybody is at the stagewhere they're ready to get
married and to channel theirnatural desires.
And so sometimes the attitudethat comes into mind is uh,
well, it's a lesser of the twoevils.
At least I'm not committingZina, right?
And uh it's better I do thisthan I go commit zina.

(21:42):
What's what's your response tothat?
And and about how to probablyreframe somebody's mindset
around that.

SPEAKER_01 (21:49):
Yeah, we in psychology we call that
rationalization, right?
So um the the the thing we haveto recognize is that um, you
know, for example, when theQuran is mentioning zina, uh it
says la takhrabu zina, right?
Don't even come near Zina,right?
Because uh the idea is not don'tcommit zinna.
Obviously, anyone with theireven people who are not Muslim
will agree that zina is bad,right?

(22:10):
Especially within the context ofmarriage, right?
Um, you know, cheating on yourspouse is bad, uh having an
affair with someone is bad.
Um, but the the the thing isthat usually people don't go
from being righteous and beingclean to then committing zina.
That that's there's a lot ofsteps that are in between,
right?
We know the famous story of theperson in Bani Israel who ended

(22:30):
up committing Zina, then youknow, there's a there's a whole
hadith about this.
So um the it's subtle ways thatwe move closer and closer and
closer to zina until then ithappens.
And this is is on that path,basically, right?
So when you when you look atpornography, you're going down
the path.
Imagine, for example, like uh,you know, I mean, growing up, I

(22:52):
don't know how children uh howthey are doing it now, it's
really tough for them.
But when we were growing up, forus, uh pornography access was
really like not available, likeit wasn't there.
Like I grew up in Pakistan,there was no pornography that
I'm aware of that I could accessimmediately, right?
Even like uh things in themarket and stuff, none of
nothing, none of this isavailable.
Then when I moved to America,when the internet became more

(23:12):
popular, then internet was likea way to you know get that
access.
Um so uh uh for me growing up,like even watching people hold
hand or kiss was like, oh mygod, this is shameful, right?
So the we have this fitrahinside of us that recognizes
something that is just not likehealthy.
This it there's some level ofdisgust in it, like public
affection, for example.

(23:33):
Um, uh, you know, looking atsomeone who's supposed to be
covered naked, right?
Like there's something about itthat just feels wrong.
So I'm saying if it goes againstthe fitra, it shouldn't be done.
Even if if you're thinking,okay, it's lesser of the two
evil or whatever, you know,you're it's preventing you from
that.
Now, what the other thing thathappens is if you keep doing it,
uh if you keep justifying it,this is where Shaitan is like
kind of like training you, thenthat becomes a norm.

(23:56):
Then moving one step forwardisn't going to be, you might
say, okay, well, at least I'mnot committing zina, but hey,
I'm talking to a woman, hey, atleast I'm not committing zina,
I'm just hanging out with her.
You know, like it just startsgetting closer and closer to the
ultimate thing until thathappens, and then, you know, um,
unfortunately, it's it's hard tocome back from that.

SPEAKER_02 (24:13):
Um, what kind of unrealistic expectations does uh
porn addiction create in termsof like pleasure, intimacy,
bodies, and how can that show upin marriage uh later?

SPEAKER_01 (24:24):
Yeah, I mean, I think the issue is that uh not
just uh like intimacy, but evenrelationships that we see in
movies, in the media, are justkind of like um uh portrayed in
a way that's unrealistic, right?
Um even like social media, wesee that um there are a lot of
couples who have like theseTikTok accounts, and then you
think that they're doing sogreat, and then you find out
that people are gettingdivorced.
Um, and so same with intimacy,right?

(24:46):
The way it's portrayed, um it'sjust a show, like in in
pornography.
They're putting on a show forentertainment purpose, um, and
it's it's far from the reality.
I think any person who'smarried, who's have been
intimate, can tell uh anyonelike that this is not like uh a
secret that this is the intimacyisn't as pleasurable as it's

(25:06):
shown in pornography.
So I think that's the part thatreally messes it up.
The other thing is intimacy,physical intimacy is one way
that you feel connected withyour spouse.
That's a very important way.
It's a very basic physiologicalway, right?
Like uh it's a need thateveryone has and it gets
fulfilled by your spouse.
So you feel this kind of likeattach, closeness, attachment
with your spouse, right?

(25:27):
Um, when that need is messed up,so for example, imagine I used
the example earlier of like uh,you know, eating home cooked
meals.
Imagine if you're um, you know,like um if you think that your
mother uh is feeding you and notfeeding you a good meal, like
purposefully, right?
Um that is going to mess up howyou look at her.
It's going to destroy the waythat she uh is represented it in

(25:49):
your heart, in your mind.
Similarly with spouse, uh, onceyou don't feel fulfilled because
you're used to pornography, thenyou start thinking that, oh,
maybe she doesn't love me, maybethere's no love there.
You don't feel that attachment,that closeness anymore with the
individual.
So it really begins to affectthat relationship between the
spouse.
Uh, it becomes a source ofargument and fights because you
don't feel fulfilled, right?

(26:10):
That normal, healthy uh uh youknow, uh intimacy, it doesn't
feel fulfilling anymore.
And so then there's afrustration that gets built up.
And then, like I said before, ifif you're used to having a high
like dopamine spike all thetime, then when you don't get
it, it also affects you.
Not to mention that it alsoleads to like erectile
dysfunction and pre uh you knowpremature ejaculation, a lot of

(26:34):
physical problems in intimacythat also then makes it
difficult to be intimate andthen causes more frustration and
more problems.

SPEAKER_02 (26:41):
Wow.
Wow, this is so so deep.
I guess like it's more than justthe surface physical, physical
effect.
It's more than that, way morethan that.

SPEAKER_00 (26:50):
Yeah, also I think it's worth adding to that that
sometimes pornography, um, likewhat you see in pornography is
this idealized version of aperson, right?
And then there's the expectationthat your spouse has to meet
that that idealized version ofwhatever you're seeing on your
phone or whatever.
So there is that factor alsothat really also impacts the

(27:13):
marriage later on, right?

SPEAKER_01 (27:14):
Yeah, absolutely.
Like it it creates this idea inyour mind that this is how my
marriage is going to be, this ishow intimacy is going to be.
And then you go in with thatexpectation, and then you know,
from the very first day, you'redisappointed because that's not
how it is, right?
So then uh, you know, thenobviously it's frustration, then
you're just like, why not?
And then you're so used to itbecause your mind, you know, you
know, through the exposure thatyou've had, then anything else

(27:36):
doesn't seem normal.
And then people start thinkingthat maybe if it was someone
else, I would be in a you know,maybe a healthier, you know,
intimate relationship.
And I've seen people where, youknow, like uh the uh, for
example, couples where one ofthem might struggle with
intimacy because of otherreasons, like maybe just low
libido, whatnot.
Um, from even that person has afrustrated partner, frustrated

(27:57):
husband or wife.
And then on the other hand,someone who has a very healthy
libido and their uh husband andwife might still be frustrated
because of the pornographyissue, right?
Because they think that uh theirtheir spouse needs to be more
active.
But it's like, wait, I mean,they are as active as you would
expect any healthy individual tobe.

SPEAKER_00 (28:16):
I'm interested in to know the um the physiological
differences.
So if we were, for example, totake two brains, one brain of a
person who has consumed porn forover a decade, and another brain
that has not, what physiologicaldifferences would we see?

SPEAKER_01 (28:32):
Yeah, so uh I mentioned the the pathway that
um you know for the for rewards,right?
So we have like a pleasurecenter in our brain, like the
the uh the neurotransmitterdopamine is what gets released.
So anytime you do somethingpleasurable, whether it's like
you know eating a plate of youknow biryani or you know, uh
enjoying video game or you know,even um uh hanging out with

(28:54):
someone that you might enjoy,uh, you know, and then to
obviously as intimacy, sexualpleasure, pornography, all of
these things.
Um, so uh uh ideally whathappens is that you, you know,
you engage in somethingpleasurable, your dopamine goes
up, and then um it has to comedown, right?
And that coming down, the higherthe peak is, the the the longer
the come down is, right?

(29:16):
This is why right after that uhperiod, when especially for men,
uh when they reach the peak ofit, the orgasm, after right
afterwards that drop, there'sthis kind of like it's almost
like the opposing effect.
Whatever's bringing thempleasure, they just don't want
to engage in it anymore, right?
And and wives will oftentimeshave a complaint about that,
like, you know, uh like whenhe's done, it's like he's not

(29:37):
interested anymore.
That's just a physiologicalthing that ends up happening.
So, but that's our brains wehave resetting.
In fact, if you look at thechart, it kind of goes down to a
base level, but it goes evenbelow that because it's
resetting, it's balancing.
Uh, you know, it's not normalfor the brain to keep getting
dopamine.
I remember there was a study, Ithink I read about uh in mice,
they did the study where theygave every time the mice pressed

(29:58):
a lever, it would uh Give uh thethe the mouse uh dopamine right
in their brain, they would feelgood.
And they kept doing it to thepoint where I think they um they
killed themselves or died toobecause of the amount of
dopamine they kept wanting moreand more and more, right?
So brain needs to reset,otherwise it's it's damaging
your brain, right?
So I think that's the part thatuh ends up because if you keep

(30:19):
engaging in this, and we ththose people who struggle with
pornography, I mean, I've workedwith so many of these
individuals, it starts out veryslow, you know, occasionally,
then to like every day, and thento some, I've seen some people
who like three, four hours aday, they look at pornography
every single day.
Right now, that's the otherextreme of it.
Obviously, there are not toomany people that are there, uh
alhamdulillah.

(30:39):
But the thing is that it couldget to that point because now
for your brain it's not enough.
And when when it's coming down,uh the the the dopamine levels
in your brain, that part is likeI said, it's the opposite of
feeling happy and good, right?
So that part, if the brain isused to this spike, it it turns
into depression.
And so then pornography oranything pleasurable becomes a

(31:02):
way to cope with that depressivestate because you no longer want
to feel that depression.
It's unbearable for theindividual to feel that
depression.
So it becomes like thisperpetual cycle where now you're
just trying to compensate forthe effects of the pornography,
the effects of it um uh, youknow, physiologically.
There's a really good uh book,it's called Dopamine Nation.
Um, I think Anna Lemke is hername, the the author who wrote

(31:23):
it.
Um, but she explains this wholelike uh physiological uh you
know uh system in the brainreally well.
And I recommend people to readthat.

SPEAKER_02 (31:31):
And this is true for any type of addiction.

SPEAKER_01 (31:34):
Basically, but the the uh in terms of like
categories of things that bringus pleasure, sexual pleasure is
at the top of it.

SPEAKER_02 (31:41):
Okay, okay, okay.
I wanted to ask about how toovercome it.
Some people think that willpoweror even other people think that
just spirituality is enough toovercome it.
Is that true?

SPEAKER_01 (31:55):
So I think you need a multi-pronged approach, right?
Um, so um, what makes us us likehumans?
We've talked about the nafs,right?
So we have this nafs, um, andyou know, it the at the very
core it seeks to um pleaseitself, be comfortable like an
animal, uh, but it can be tamedand trained, like you have to do
mujahada and mukhalef of thenafs, right?

(32:16):
Then we also have uh within uslike our uh system of thinking,
akqal, uh cognition, right?
So the ability to think aboutthings, recognize uh triggers,
patterns, uh monitor yourself,uh, think about consequences of
the behaviors.
So that's there.
Then we also have emotions,right?
Yes, like uh some of them arevery deep-rooted emotions.

(32:38):
Um, what am I feeling right now?
I'm feeling sad, I'm happy, I'manxious, um, feeling guilt.
Is it healthy guilt?
Is it unhealthy guilt?
That's all that is emotion.
And then we have the ruh aswell.
Now, these things are notseparated, they're kind of like
you know, layers, you can say,but they all are intertwined,
they're all working together.
So when uh when in this systemthere is a problem, even if the

(32:59):
problem is a nafsani problem, inthis case pornography, one can
argue this is uh uh mostly anafsani problem, but it does
affect other parts.
So, for example, if someone uhwants to engage with
pornography, I mentioned earlierthey rationalize that they're
using the aqal to justify whatthey're doing, right?
Um and then they the same personcan also use the aql to talk

(33:19):
themselves out of the behavior,right?
So there's a connection betweenakal and the nafs.
Then if you look at from theperspective of emotions, I
mentioned people who aredepressed, for example, they uh
engage in pornography to feel,you know, to feel happy.
There's a connection there.
Ruhani, obviously, the more youengage in it, um, the the away
you are from Allah subhanahu wata'ala.
And the vice versa is alsocorrect where the Quran mentions

(33:40):
that in the Salatan Ha'in Fashaial-Munga, like it's supposed to,
prayer is supposed to uh keepyou away from these uh
behaviors.
So the more you engage withAllah, the more you engage with
salah, a meaningful engagement,um it'll protect you from the
nafsani things as well.
So because the problem is alsomulti, um uh, you know, it's
complex, um, this the solution,the fix also has to be uh a

(34:00):
multi-pronged approach.
You cannot just say, okay, I'mgonna stay away from the
behavior or you know, it's notgoing to be sufficient.
You have to be aware of yourthoughts, you have to be aware
of your emotions, you have to uhmanage your connection with
Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, youknow, if you don't have any
deep, meaningful, and not tomention social connections,
right?
Social support.
If you're isolated, you're morelikely to engage in pornography.

(34:21):
So you have to be engaged morewith uh society, do things for
other people, um, uh, you know,live a more productive life.
There's all these things thatyou have to do.
I'm working on a workbook rightnow, actually, on pornography
addiction, but you know, it'lltake a couple of uh weeks for it
to finish.
But in that I have chapters on,you know, uh uh each of these
areas, like how to treat usingyour net, your akal, your nafs,
emotions, your hsas, ruah,because all that requires it.

(34:44):
But it has to be an approachthat, and in every moment when
the person is struggling,they're going to engage in all
of these uh uh aspects of theirpsyche.
Otherwise, you know, it's notgoing to be efficient.
There are few people who havethat willpower, you know, very
few people who can say, I'm notgonna do it, and they'll back up
and they'll never touch itagain.
Um, but those are far and few.
Most of us are, you know, normalhuman beings who who go back and

(35:07):
forth and struggle, and youknow, but that struggle is good,
by the way.
Sometimes people think like um,you know, the road to recovery
is not like a straight line,right?
So you might take two stepsforward, one back, and that's
fine.
You still make small and steadyprogress, right?
So if you were able to keep awayfrom pornography, let's say
you're a daily consumer ofpornography and you keep away
for even like two days, that's aprogress.

(35:27):
One day is progress.
Then you increase it to threedays and four days.
You might think, okay, afterfour days, I'm still looking at
pornography, yes, but those fourdays you did not, right?
So sometimes Haitan comes in andsays, No, no, you're still like
that, and what's the point?
Or some people, when they startto engage in it, they have this
inner voice that tells them,don't do it.
This is bad for you.
But then they're like, Oh, it'stoo late for me.
Or they're engaging in it andthey have this shame and guilt,

(35:48):
and they're like, Oh, now it'stoo late, I'm doomed anyway, I'm
going to hell.
What's the point?
You know, you have to be awareof these things and you have to
be able to use these things likehealthy shame, healthy social
connections, healthy support tobe able to pull you out of this
problem.

SPEAKER_00 (36:02):
The one thing I want to add to that is that while
like while we're taking thesepractical steps, the most also
at the end of the day, we haveto channel our desires.
We're human beings.
And so it's also important thatwe are taking proactive steps to
try to get married so that wecan eventually channel those
desires.
And that if we're just puttingmarriage as something that

(36:23):
that's far off and we're justtreating as something that just
happened one day rather thantaking proactive steps, then
obviously we're gonna constantlybe dealing with these struggles
and these desires and um and andnot channeling it in in an
appropriate way.
So um when you talk about themulti-prong approach, but one of
those prongs is getting readyfor married, uh, for marriage,

(36:46):
just making sure that we'reready financially, emotionally,
whatever it may be.
So I just wanted to add thatpart.

SPEAKER_01 (36:53):
Yeah, and you know, the earlier when we were talking
about marriage and you askedsomeone asked about like
pornography and if they shouldget married or not, uh one of
the things that we're seeing nowin this in this day and age is
people are not getting married,right?
Um, that people uh there's thisfear, there's this like anxiety
of marriage.
A lot of people, even thoughthey might not have pornography
addiction or you know, theystill don't want to get married.

(37:13):
So I think we have to encouragemarriage, right, from an early
on.
I think that's the part we needto work on.
And we need to remove barriersto get uh getting married.
And that I think will also helpin in uh you know in in
preventing some of these issues.
Uh, but uh, you know, the thethought that like when you said
being ready for marriage, right?
Um, because sometimes it's evenculturally, some people like you

(37:36):
might say financially, um, somepeople might say, oh, well, like
you have to have this amount ofmoney, right?
You know, uh, in some cultures,I won't name, um, you know, like
when you go ask the the the thethe the the girl's father, you
have to like present a dowry oryou have to have a certain
amount, right?
$25,000,$40.
And I'm thinking, who in theworld has 20?
I don't have$25,000 to spare,right?

(37:56):
You know, who has this moneythat's just sitting there and
they're like, I'm gonna go, andand in this day and age, people
can't barely afford like theirliving expenses.
Who's going to save$25,000 andwhat age?
You see, like it makes it reallyhard to get married.
You know, when I got married, Iwas still in school, right?
Alhamdulillah, I mean, I madeit.
I mean, I had my first son and Ihad uh no, I didn't have a job,
I was still in school, right?

(38:17):
My second son was born on uh thesame year, the same month
actually that I graduated withmy doctoral degree.
That's when I first got my firstjob, right?
So, but alhamdulillah, you know,you make it.
So uh I think getting ready uhto for marriage is more of this
mental process, maturity,finding the right person, the
person who realizes that, hey,we're still struggling, you
know, we're gonna have ourissues or we're gonna work

(38:39):
through it together, havingsupport from family and parents,
I think that's really important.
Um, and we need to facilitatethat.
Like I don't want to create it,I don't want to see barriers
because then we're uh fuelingthe problem of pornography in
this case, uh, you know, by byputting up barriers to getting
married.

SPEAKER_02 (38:54):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Uh speaking of uh familysupport, so unfortunately, in a
lot of cases, when um the familydiscovers that a family member
is struggling with pornaddiction, they don't even see
it as a struggle.
They just immediately jump into,oh my God, this is so shameful,
you're disgusting, like youbrought shame into the family

(39:15):
and all of that.
So, and this just I assume thatthis just goes into feeding that
guilt feeling, unhealthy guiltfeeling.
Let's say someone like discoversthat a family member is actually
struggling through this.
What is the right approach to goabout it?

SPEAKER_01 (39:30):
Yeah, I mean, uh, there's going to be some normal
feelings that happen, right?
Obviously, there's somereactionary feeling.
Human beings, we're we tend tohave reactions, right?
Where that's just like the coreof our emotions.
Um, you know, sometimes you getangry because something
happened, someone hurt you, forexample.
So, you know, if you if it'syour spouse, for example, you
might feel hurt by them, right?
You might feel like, oh, how,you know, I feel betrayed.

(39:51):
Initially, those feelings arenormal.
In fact, they these feelingswill linger on for a little
while.
Uh, if it's your children orlike, you know, it's some family
member, you might say it broughtshame to the family, you might
feel ashamed.
Those initial feelings are arethere, but I think you have to
kind of be able to dig and say,okay, you know, this is a
problem.
It's not gonna go away by byitself.
Let me see what I can do tooffer.
Uh, how much of criticism andshaming is going to be helpful

(40:14):
here, right?
Um, you know, there's healthyshame and there's unhealthy
shame.
So it uh, you know, let's notutilize unhealthy shame because
that's what's going to you knowpush this individual into
committing this even more.
Let's keep it healthy.
Okay, you know, this is bad,it's uh it shouldn't have
happened, but what can I do foryou, right?
How can I help you?
And and make it our problem,right?
This is in the world that welive in, it's very easy to just

(40:36):
point fingers and say this istheir problem and his problem,
her problem.
No, it's our problem, whetherit's uh between the couples or
in a in a household.
What can we do to help?
Like, for example, I there was ateenager I worked with who
struggled with pornography, andone of the things that uh he did
was he he told his parents aboutit, right?
And so then they were able tohelp him.
Yeah, this was very interesting.

(40:56):
They were able to help him.
They set up some, you know, somesystems where he didn't have his
phone alone with him.
Then they realized that he was,you know, he was close to like
almost 18, 19 years of age.
So they said, we're gonna try toget him married early.
So they told him, like, look,you know, be patient and you
know, we'll get you marriedearly so you have this like
something to look forward to.
Um, but if the the path tomarriage is like, and this is a

(41:17):
family problem, right?
Sometimes families will say, Oh,you have to make this amount of
money, you have to be done withmedical school and residency and
that, you know, the person'sthinking, okay, that means for
the next 10 years, I'm not goingto get married, you know, no one
can delay their gratificationfor that long, right?
Like that's that's not evenpossible.
So, you know, you have to berealistic and say, okay, like,
okay, you know, well, likewhen's the soonest we can get

(41:37):
this person married, right?
And and um, and if the person'saware of it, then like it that
might make it easier for them tocontrol themselves.
But having that support fromfamily in this case, the parents
was actually very helpful.
Uh, and the most successfulcases that I've seen, especially
married individuals, is wherethe spouse is uh is in, you
know, it's like, okay, this isour problem, we're gonna work on
it together.
Um, and it's not like, oh, he isthis way and she's it that way,

(42:00):
and uh, you know, pointingfingers at one another.

SPEAKER_02 (42:03):
Wow, this reminds me of the hadith where the Prophet
said, so either JaakumMantrodonahu dinha who deinahu
wa hulu koho faza wudu, illamtafalu tokunfi or kabir.
So this like this is manifestedin these days, like yeah, you
can't get married until you makethis much money.
And like you said, you can'thold your like natural urges,

(42:25):
subhanAllah.

SPEAKER_00 (42:26):
Can you translate the hadith for the audience?

SPEAKER_02 (42:28):
Oh, yeah.
So we most most of us know thefirst part of the hadith.
If someone with good uh deen andcharacter proposes they marry
them.
Now, the second part that's notso much known is if you don't do
that, then there's gonna begreat corruption uh in the in
the world.
And this is the corruption we'reseeing.

SPEAKER_01 (42:47):
Yeah, you know, I grew up in Pakistan, and in
Pakistan, one of the problemsthat is very common,
unfortunately, is child sexualabuse and molestation, right?
And and um I think the themarital barriers is part of the
issue that contributes to thisproblem.
Like I remember when I wasgrowing up, look uh, you know,
the people in my uh family,uncles, and others, when they
got married, they were in their30s.

(43:08):
So the norm was in your 30s, 35is like the marriage age.
It wasn't early.
So, you know, at that time, evennow, if you go back to Pakistan,
I can speak on uh for that, Ican't speak for other places, is
that they, you know, the typicallike marriage age is like 30,
like 30, 32.
That's not a very healthy age,right?
So before they didn't havepornography and you know, the

(43:28):
the the sexual frustration andall that was coming out,
unfortunately, on children,which is even more damaging than
pornography, becausepornography, you're damaging
yourself through sexual abuse,you're damaging other people,
um, you know, and ruining theirlives.
So I think now it's um uh youknow uh slightly better, but
that now what's happened isshifted towards pornography,
right?
Um so if you look at the datafrom Google, for example, you'll

(43:50):
see one of the biggest consumersof pornography would be some of
these Muslim countries,including India, in you know,
Pakistan, India, where marriagehas become you know so still so
difficult to get married that uhyou know these people end up uh
engaging in pornography.

SPEAKER_02 (44:03):
SubhanAllah, subhanAllah.
In Jordan, it's not thatdifferent, not in terms of
pornography and uh consumption,I have no idea about that, but
the uh average age of marriage,it's like very normal 30, 31,
35.
Subhanallah, it's so strange howthat became the normal.

SPEAKER_00 (44:18):
In Jordan, is it because of the same reasons,
like financial expectations?
Yeah, something like that.

SPEAKER_02 (44:24):
Yeah, financial expectations, the cost of living
is very high, all of that.
If uh if someone's listening tous right now and they're
struggling with this problem,what is one thing you can say to
them?

SPEAKER_01 (44:35):
I mean, the first thing is you're not alone.
I think this isn't this isn't uha problem that only you have,
and uh, you know, and you don'tit doesn't have to be a problem
that you deal with alone.
Doesn't mean you make it publicand you go out and you know
announce it to the world, butyou know, maybe finding someone
who you think can be helpful,um, you'll be surprised.
Sometimes I had one uh clientwho was struggling and he
reached out to one of hisfriends who was also struggling.

(44:57):
So then they became kind of likethese uh, you know, partners in
this uh struggle that where theykept an eye on each other, like
having someone in in AlcoholicsAnonymous, they have this thing
called sponsor, right?
So someone that you can call ifyou have this urge to drink.
So for this person, he becamehis almost like his sponsor
who's someone who was helpinghim and both kind of helped each
other.
So uh, you know, trustingsomeone with this, uh ideally

(45:18):
someone that who's mature enoughwho can help you through this
problem, uh, instead of uh, youknow, bring uh instead of put
you down too much.
And then professional support,right?
I mean, online therapy, even ifyou do something uh, you know,
that's just text-based online,it's it's still better than
nothing.
But ideally, someone who'sprofessional, um, I think uh
doing some self-reflection as towhere the problem is coming

(45:38):
from.
Sometimes the problem is thispurely behavioral issue, it's
just something that you learned,overlearnt behavior, right?
Habit.
You habituated into it, slowlyjust kind of became that way.
Oftentimes the problem isdifferent.
The problem is there's anxiety,there's depression, maybe there
could be some childhood traumaissue that you're not aware of.
So getting professional help canbe very, very, uh, you know,

(45:59):
very beneficial.
Uh and there are programs outthere that are free online.
You can YouTube, there's thingsout there, there's lectures you
can watch.
Um, you know, there are uh uhthere's a like a website, um, uh
what is it, Lower Your Gaze orsomething?
You know what I'm talking about?
There's a website.

SPEAKER_00 (46:14):
The Instagram account, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Or Purify Your Gaze, I think.

SPEAKER_01 (46:17):
Purify your gaze, right?
I think it's a it's a it's aMuslim-owned uh thing, but they
also partner you up with someoneand you know, so there's
programs out there that can bevery helpful.
Um, but uh but don't let it be.
Like the the if you have athought that this is not that
big of a problem, but that's athought from shaitan.
That's a wasp of shaitan becauseuh even it like I said earlier,
even for us to be able to wantto look at women's or you know,

(46:41):
for me as a man, for anotherwoman online with any kind of
lustful intention, whether she'scovered or not covered, that in
itself is a problem right there.
So from that moment on, it's aproblem.
So don't think that, oh, justbecause there's some people who
are doing it four hours a day,I'm not doing it that much, or
you know, I could have beencommitting Zana.
No, all that is just nonsensethat Shaitan is putting in your
mind to justify it to keep thebehavior going.

SPEAKER_02 (47:03):
Wow.
So like a consistent small sinbecomes a big sin, like becomes
a subhanAllah.
Absolutely.
Subhanallah.
And uh do you work uh with likeindividuals or you're fully
dedicated to teaching right now?

SPEAKER_01 (47:17):
Yeah, unfortunately I don't have uh time or
capacity, but I know KhalilCenter, that's you know, my like
my uh organization that we havepeople that are available um to
uh to offer services, but Isupervise them and most of my
time is spent teaching or justmanaging the clients that I've
had for many, many years now.

SPEAKER_00 (47:34):
Can you expand a little bit on the the workbook
that you mentioned before?
Like um how you know, once it'sdone, how people can get a hold
of that, and and uh a little bitabout like how it can help
people.

SPEAKER_01 (47:46):
Yeah, so uh basically we have this uh uh
contract with Clarita's book.
Uh so if you go on KhalilCenter's website,
KhalilCenter.com, but if youGoogle it, we've done a series
of workbooks.
Our first workbook was on OCD,obsessive compulsive disorder,
especially scrupulosity, likewhat's for satite that people
have.
Uh our second workbook was ongeneralized anxiety disorder, or
just generalized anxiety, andthen our third one was on uh

(48:07):
parenting.
So we're doing a series ofworkbooks.
Uh and this is for people whowant to help themselves and they
don't have access to.
And especially in this case,they feel really ashamed.
So, you know, the one I'mworking on now is on
pornography.
So I'm just going through a fewlike revisions.
So it might take a couple ofweeks, but then obviously it'll
take time to publish, inshallah.
So the plan is hopefully uhwithin the next like three to

(48:28):
six months, we'll have somethinguh you know announced.
But um uh it's almost done, youcan say.
But yeah, I think the goal wasagain, I've been wanting to do
this for a long time, but thegoal is to like for people who
are struggling for them to havesome kind of support.
And once it's uh published, thenyou know, we hopefully we can
disseminate in and uh you know,if possible, even hopefully
someone can sponsor and we canmake and make it free because

(48:49):
it's it's such a huge problemthat I think there's a big need
in the Muslim community.
And in this workbook, um, so Iteach and on uh you know we
train individuals on this modelof psychotherapy called TIIP,
traditional Islamicallyintegrated psychotherapy model.
And like I mentioned before, itconceptualizes a human being
from like, you know, akalnafsiruh, their emotions.
So the approach in the book isalso very similar.

(49:11):
In all of our workbooks, theapproach is very similar.
Um, so you know, recognizingwhere the issue is and then how
to tackle it uh, you know, uh ina in this kind of a multiplex
manner is what we do.

SPEAKER_02 (49:22):
Very nice.
We were just listening beforethe interview to you talking
about the difference betweenWestern psychology and Islamic
psychology.

SPEAKER_01 (49:29):
Yeah, which by the way, nafs, the issue of nafs is
the biggest difference betweenone of the biggest differences,
right?
Because in Western psychology,pornography is sometimes
considered healthy, masturbationpornography.
You know, there there's there,yeah, there's some couples,
couple counselors who actually,uh, if the husband and wife are
struggling with intimacy,they'll say, look at pornography
together, watch pornographytogether, it'll help you.
Um, you know, they like thatbecause they don't have this

(49:50):
sense of like the nafs is bad,and if it's not inherently bad,
but it has a tendency to engagein something bad, and if you
don't control it, so a littlebit is not okay, right?
Especially if it's somethingthat that's as bad as
pornography, even a little bitis considered bad.
But from a Western psychologyperspective, it only becomes bad
if you're not productive, ifyou're not making money, if
you're a burden on society, uh,but Islam doesn't uh you know uh

(50:12):
see human value based on theirmaterial value.

SPEAKER_02 (50:15):
Wow, that's crazy.
It's scary going to a Muslimperson, going to a non-Muslim
psychologist, like you don'tknow what they're gonna tell
you.

SPEAKER_01 (50:24):
Yeah, that's another topic for another podcast.

SPEAKER_02 (50:26):
Inshallah.
Inshallah, inshallah.

SPEAKER_00 (50:29):
Um, so if anybody wants to benefit from your your
work or your content, can you umshare your Instagram handle or
any other ways we can followyou?

SPEAKER_01 (50:38):
Yeah.
So I I don't I I I wish I couldbe more benefit to people.
Uh you can go Google me, butyeah, I I think uh organizations
like their uh, you know, Imentioned Khalil Center, so go
to Khalilcenter.com.
Um, and I think through thatyou'll find uh people.
And most uh therapists have somelevel of training and obviously
awareness about pornography.
So even if they're not, youknow, ideally if you find

(51:00):
someone who's a licensed uh uhsex addiction uh sex addiction
therapist or a certified sexCSAT, they call it, that's good.
But even if you can't find one,and if you find any therapist,
uh, you know, you go in withintentionally with this uh
issue, this problem that I'mhere to recover from this
struggle uh and and start thework, and inshallah you'll see

(51:21):
uh you know some benefit.
So don't don't look for mebecause I'm really not an
expert.
You know, alhamdulillah, I'm apsychologist and I I teach and
I've done as much as I can, butum I don't want to put myself
out there as some kind of expertthat who's you know who you
should follow.

unknown (51:36):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (51:36):
Okay, no problem.
Thank you so much.
This topic has been on our mindfor I don't know, maybe over six
months now, but we just couldn'tfind the right person to tackle
it.
So I'm very happy we finally gotuh to talk about it.
And uh to our beautifullisteners, you heard if you're
struggling, you're not alone, uhjust uh seek help and inshallah

(51:58):
help will come.
Um thank you so much uh again.
We really appreciate taking thetime uh to speak with us.
And uh our listeners, inshallah,we'll see you on the next
episode.
All right.