June 13, 2025 • 30 mins
This week, psychotherapist Aiah Neamatallah joins us to talk about what many converts face after the shahada, especially when it comes to marriage, from feeling caught between two worlds to navigating power dynamics in relationships. We dig into what converts should know before getting married, what born Muslims and their parents often overlook, and how communities can do better. Whether you're a convert, marrying one, or just curious, this episode is packed with honesty, empathy, and practical takeaways.
To connect with Aiah and other amazing counselors go to: https://muslimcounselling.ca/
Got a dilemma or story? The Single Muslim Hotline is here for you! We’ll play your anonymous messages in future episodes and offer real talk. Drop us a voice note 👇🏻
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Assalamu alaikum, I'm Hiba.
And I'm Zaid, you're listeningto Diary of a Matchmaker.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
A podcast that will take you into our world as
matchmakers.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
We'll share our experiences and offer advice for
the single Muslim.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
So let's dive in Bismillah.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Assalamu alaikum everyone.
Welcome to another episode.
My name is Hiba and on theother mic is my husband and
co-host, zaid.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Assalamu alaikum everyone.
Inshaallah, today we have a.
We're honored to have a guest,aya Nirmatullah.
She is a registeredpsychotherapist with Canadian
Muslim Counseling.
She completed her graduatestudies in counseling psychology
at Yorkville University and oneof the segments of people that
(00:43):
she works with are converts, so,inshallah, today we'll be
focusing a lot on that topic.
It's something we haven'texplored before, so I'm excited
to jump into this.
A lot of her work focuses onself-awareness, emotional
healing, helping clients buildtools that they need to thrive,
all while staying grounded inIslamic values.
(01:04):
So thank you for coming on tothe podcast.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Welcome Aya.
How are you?
Jazakumullah khair,assalamualaikum, Heba and Zaid,
I'm very honored to be here withyou and Jazakallah khair for
the introduction.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Thank you for accepting our invitation.
Okay, let's get right into it.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
So how have you seen the Muslim community romanticize
the convert journey while atthe same time falling short when
it comes to things likemarriage support?
Speaker 3 (01:33):
It's a privilege, to be honest, to work with converts
.
I feel very small.
When I'm in the presence of aconvert as a community, I feel
like we're not doing the bestthat we should be doing when it
comes to their support, theirwelcoming, their existence
(01:53):
around them when they need us Atfirst is the cheer and the
Allahu Akbar and welcome in.
And everyone has goosebumps Ido too, but because I work with
them on a daily and weekly basis, I can see their struggles from
(02:14):
both sides, from their ownfamily of origin and how they're
trying.
Where do we belong exactly?
Do we belong back where we camefrom or do we belong with our
new community?
So it is a struggle,subhanallah.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Are there a lot of converts, by the way, in Canada
and the States?
Speaker 3 (02:34):
SubhanAllah, there is a decent number.
They're beautiful people.
Allahumma wa barak, especiallyafter the genocide and the war
happening right now, there aremore.
And allahumma wa barak genocideand the war right now happening
right now, there are more, andit's all Allah not not anything
(03:00):
of the existing Muslims workunfortunately, we haven't said
the best example, unfortunately.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
So what is the common thread that you find with
regards to converts when theyseek your help?
Speaker 3 (03:09):
So my work is a wide spectrum of issues and
challenges.
Everyone brings their ownbaggage, whether it's their
personal trauma, whether thestruggle again with their
families.
A lot of them, once theyannounce their conversion to
(03:29):
Islam or acceptance of Islam,they become really attacked,
expelled from their heritage,from their family, their
possessions taken away.
So it's yeah, there are a lotof trauma around that and that's
why I'm saying the Muslimcommunity is really falling
(03:52):
short in providing this strongsupport.
So it's a wide, wide variety ofissues.
And this is as individuals I'mnot even talking about couples.
I meet individuals, I meetcouples, I meet families.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
So yeah, you said their possessions are taken away
from them.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
If it's a car, it's taken away.
If they're kicked out of thehouse, they're on their own.
If the reason or one of theways they were introduced to
Islam is by knowing a partner,so again it's you're on your own
with that person, whether it'sa male or a female.
Go figure out a new life onyour own.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
May Allah make it easy for them.
Ya Rabb, ya Rabb ameen.
So, when it comes to marriage,converts seeking marriage what
are the struggles?
Speaker 3 (04:44):
that come with that.
I think the first struggle isthe convert themselves seeing
themselves as not good enough.
I heard it, I heard it beforefrom converts as in I am not
good enough.
As a born into muslim which isnot true at all at all I could
(05:05):
say that it's a completeopposite.
Sometimes, um, a lot of timesit it impacts their, their
confidence, it impacts whatthey're bringing into the
relationship.
Um, it's always a struggle.
If they start on this note, likeI'm not good enough, I am a
secondhand in, like a citizen inthis, in this relationship, it
(05:31):
just drags into more problems,and I'm talking about women, men
and women equally.
If I'm not going into thisrelationship feeling that I'm of
value, I'm adding a lot intothis relationship, it will cause
a lot of damage lack ofconfidence, lack of self-esteem,
(05:53):
codependency, like we call itin psychotherapy, enmeshment,
too dependent on my partner.
There are no set boundaries, nohealthy boundaries.
I would say it's just a seriesof problems from one thing to
the other.
If you want to even drag itmore, it impacts their children
(06:15):
as well.
Subhanallah, it just it doesn'tend.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Wow, I would have assumed that, like converts are
usually looked at as a cleanslate.
They have a clean slate.
They are better than the restof us, so they're held at higher
standards.
That's what I would assume.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
I was just amazed that they want to come and speak
with me, because I'm always andforever regarding them as much
better, to be honest, much, muchbetter, because they're the
ones who went out and soughttruth and they're the ones who,
of course, with Allah'sgenerosity and mercy and
guidance and everything Allah'sthe best of planners, of course
they put the work I was borninto Muslim Like I didn't do
(07:13):
anything.
Subhanallah.
So you would think, you wouldthink, but they have their own
struggles.
They have their own strugglesfrom their community and from
the Muslim communities,subhanallah.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Yeah, I feel like the clean slate, the phrase that
you just used that gets probablythrown around a lot where it
has an impact.
So what impact do you feel thisassumption that converts are
just a quote-unquote, clean, noblank slate have on the way
they're treated in marriageconversations?
Because I feel like that reallysometimes can set them up to be
(07:47):
taken advantage of in somecircumstances.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
I think, in my experience working with converts
, I always saw it, I alwaysexperienced it with the convert
from you need to be the betterperson, you need to be maybe
unrealistic.
Um, you need to be the betterperson, you need to be maybe
unrealistic.
So my expectations from theperson in front of me becomes
unrealistic.
He's still a human being orshe's still a human being.
(08:12):
What happens is they're clean,like a clean slate, because
allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala,granted them this blessing, not
because there's.
At the end of the day, they'rehuman beings like us.
They sin, like us, like they.
It just becomes doublestandards sometimes.
Yeah, which?
Speaker 1 (08:32):
is totally unfair.
What about the complexities ofseeking marriage Like?
How do they, how do they seekmarriage?
Are they like, accepted andwelcomed in the, in the, in
their new community, or are bornMuslims, hesitant to marry
their daughters to them, or liketheir sons or whatever?
Speaker 3 (08:51):
It's a case by case, I believe from my humble
experience.
It's a case by case whether thefamily is mature enough to
understand what Islam is allabout and how welcoming Islam
should be.
But a lot of families,especially traditional Muslims,
(09:15):
are worried about their level ofIslam compared to the converts,
and that's exactly how it'sseen, unfortunately, even though
the truth could have been,could be completely the opposite
, um.
But they would make it harderfor a convert to um to be
welcomed and to be given thischance, an opportunity of growth
(09:38):
, which is very unfortunate.
In my work I deal more with,like, my caseload is more of
after marriage.
After marriage, and maybe thiswill come up in the discussion
but how the relationship becomesout of balance as well.
(09:59):
In terms of what, of what?
In terms of the, for example,if it's a lady who, a girl, who
just accepted Islam and goinginto a Muslim family, they
accepted her, they are herprimary source of knowledge, so
(10:20):
they will be representing Islamin all forms, shape and messages
, knowledge, which is, I find it, a big problem, very
problematic For a Muslim, letalone a convert, to seek Islamic
knowledge from a human beinglike just a regular human being
(10:42):
and putting them on the pedestallike they are.
My knowledge, this is a crisisBecause what I'm working with on
a daily basis is, like wealways say, the people, the
Muslims, do not represent Islam.
Unfortunately, right now, thisis a crisis that we're all
living through, so it becomeseven tougher for converts to
(11:04):
live through this, and there's alot of brainwash, a lot of
brainwashing.
This is Islam, this is what isexpected, and when we dissect it
and we analyze it together,it's all cultural, traditional
rituals.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
So they're not directing them to a scholar,
someone of knowledge, they'rejust feeding them that cultural
understanding of Islam instead.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
Which does not happen automatically like that,
because they are stuck in theirown ways and it takes a long
time From my experience, ittakes a long time for them to
come out of this safety shellbecause he or she were safe for
the safety zone.
So to figure out that what'shappening is not right and we
(11:51):
need to seek knowledge outthrough a scholar to a ma'am, a
sheikh, a community in themasjid, community in the Islamic
center.
It takes a lot of courage to dothat.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
So, given you've seen a lot in the marriage phase,
what are some steps a convertcould take to prevent some of
those pitfalls, some red flagsthat they can look out for to
protect themselves fromsituations like that?
Speaker 3 (12:17):
Marriage is marriage, marriage is marriage, so the
process for, like premaritaltherapy, premarital assessment
would be the same for all.
In my opinion, seek their ownpath of knowledge and do not
(12:42):
associate it with a human being,with a partner or the family
member or a regular student ofknowledge.
This will make a hugedifference in reducing the
trauma that they might be aboutto experience they might be
(13:03):
about to experience.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
So, do you like, have you witnessed a situation where
, because of the way Islam wasintroduced to this new convert
and his interactions with hisnew family, have there been
cases where they actually endedup just leaving Islam?
Speaker 3 (13:19):
A few cases popped to mind.
They do not leave Islamalhamdulillah, but they're not
practicing the way they shouldbe.
They're not.
There is a lot of questioning.
Why is this happening toMuslims?
We're now talking about aqidah.
(13:40):
We went back to the basics andthe aqidah is very questionable.
Why is this happening to me?
And instead of using the rightterms, the right words, it all
comes back to why is Allah doingthis?
I don't understand.
(14:00):
It's just so much chaos andunfortunately, yeah, the aqidah
is the victim here.
In my experience, nobody left,but then they need a long
journey of coming back to wherethey started.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
SubhanAllah, a case comes to mind where this guy
married a convert and then hetook a second wife secretly and
then ended up divorcing hisconvert wife.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
How local tell us about it, not surprised.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Hey, if you have a story to tell, we'd love to have
you on here.
You'll find a safe space oflisteners who can understand
what you're going through.
Just shoot us an email with asummary of your story at info at
halalmatchca.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
If you could let's talk kind of hypothetical here
If you could design apre-marriage course just for
converts, what lessons orconversations would you make
sure to include?
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Beautiful question.
I love that In my work I always,during supervision meetings, we
have these hypothetical cases.
If we have, like our own centerfor marriage, if we have our own
center for inpatient forMuslims, if we have.
So in this situation there'snothing better than to follow
(15:27):
the prophetic approach Welcoming, compassionate, accepting of
all Our Prophet peace be uponhim used to pay attention, be
present and be compassionate andkind to everyone, to the old,
to the young, to the sick, tothe healthy, to the Muslims, to
(15:51):
the non-Muslims, to the enemiesand friends.
So, from that perspective, if Iam designing a program for
converts, the first, the archingmessage would be welcoming will
be the true welcoming acceptingas you are.
You are not less of anything.
(16:12):
I'm actually, I'm the one who'sless.
Probably what would also be inmind is having a body like
creating a body system like theAnsar al-Muhajirin, in a sense,
like a convert would havesomeone who is willing is not
just a name or a title or aposition that is willing to be
(16:35):
working with them, in supporting, in growing together, in just
nurturing each other.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
What about Muslims, born Muslims, who are
considering marrying a convert?
What advice would you give them?
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Letta Qula.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
That's the best advice.
You can't beat that advice, Imean I feel that applies to
anybody who's getting married,right?
Speaker 3 (17:06):
And this is my now, all the time, for, like whoever
is seeking marriage or gettingmarried, because if I'm not
fearful of Allah in my actions,what else is going to be my
standard, to be honest?
What else is going to be mystandard, to be honest, what is
going to hold me accountable oror prevent me from hurting
someone or prevent, prevent mefrom overpassing anything that
(17:29):
I'm not allowed to do?
The taqala?
Uh, you're not.
You're not better than them byany means.
And um, when I was actuallyalso saying a taqala in my mind,
I was saying start yourknowledge seeking journey,
become students of knowledge.
Know that whatever you do isgoing to be what is Hujjah Lakum
(17:55):
, hujjah Lakum and not HujjahLakum.
So it's going to be countedagainst you?
Not, probably, it would becounted against you, not because
I don't want to paint thispessimistic, it couldn't be, it
couldn't be written in your gooddeeds, the book of good deeds,
inshallah.
But um, the taqwa comes firstyeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
I would say, especially maybe for us arabs.
We should learn how to say Idon't know.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Absolutely.
Oh my God, I cannot scream itenough.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
It's like it's a shame to say I don't know.
I have to know everything.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
Yeah, yeah.
I have so much more to say inthis department.
I come from a place where it'sabsolutely I but haram to say I
don't know.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
Yes, okay, can you maybe share a story anonymously?
Of course, that demonstratesthe maybe, the challenges and
the strengths that a convert isto go through, their experience,
especially if it'smarriage-related.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
A very strong story comes to mind where a person, a
particular person, came from adysfunctional family of origin
and subhanAllah was introducedto Islam through a friend at a
high school and she becameinterested in Islam and she
(19:30):
started to grow to just seekknowledge and try to understand
what was.
What's it all about?
Accepted Islam and said hershahadaah, took her shahadah,
mashallah tabarakallah, but shewas in hiding years for a while
and it was very, very traumatic,very anxiety provoking, because
(19:53):
she would be going above andbeyond to fast in a very
non-Islamic household, fast in avery non-Islamic household, and
she knows that if anyonebecomes aware of that, it's
(20:13):
going to be very, veryproblematic.
Her hiding years were not easy,were not easy whatsoever.
And when that friend came alongafter and proposed was Muslim,
but this actually cost herliving with her parents because
they did not accept.
They did not accept her Islam,they did not accept her to marry
(20:33):
a Muslim, so they kicked herout.
Then she got married.
She got married into a Muslimfamily, the husband's family,
who took her in.
Of course there is a lot oftraumatic details, but again, a
(20:56):
lot of what I was saying thatthere is a lot of cultural
aspects and just blockage onboth sides, whether the
non-Muslim family or the Muslimfamily.
Yeah, she's a hero, to behonest.
Mashallah, allahumma, grant hersteadfastness, ya.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Rabb.
I mean please tell me she'shappily married, that her new
family is good.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
There was a lot, a lot, a lot, after a lot of years
, to be honest.
Alhamdulillah, she is happilymarried, allahumma bai'at.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
If you're overwhelmed and burdened and just don't
know where to seek help, let ushelp you.
We can be your personalmatchmakers.
Visit us at halalmatchca andbook a free call with us.
(21:57):
Just hear that story.
I know I do that a lot.
I'll admit it.
Whenever I meet a convert, Ijust want to know what their
story is.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Yeah, actually last week on this podcast we had a
financial expert who's also aconvert, jesse Reitberger.
It's amazing, his story waslike something like he went
after he converted to Islam sohe was working with like banking
and investments and stuff andhe went to kind of get new
clients in his new masjid.
But people didn't want to talkto him because they're like all
(22:27):
you do is haram, you're workingwith haram.
And then he started studyingand learning about what he was
doing and now, mashallah, heoffers investment advice to
Muslims.
Allahumma barak.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
Wow, wow, mashallah.
May Allah guide him and guideus all.
Mashallah, this is amazing.
Their work, I'm telling you,their work, is just very crucial
.
It comes out of sincere loveand wanting to excel.
Mashallah, tawarq Allah, it'sjust inspiring Allahumma barak,
(23:00):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
So a question about the parents now, parents who are
expecting or like welcoming aconvert into their family.
Let's say they, their daughteris marrying a convert, their son
is marrying a convert.
What advice would you give them?
Speaker 3 (23:16):
Have mercy and again it sounds like a cliched
statement for all couples, butwelcome that member as your son
or daughter.
But again, on an even moreresponsible or accountable note
is you might be the source forthat person to pick up a
(23:42):
behavior or a belief or astatement that could send you
straight to Jannah, because theyare in dire need to hear that
and without this advice, or withthe opposite advice, you're
sending them the other way,subhanallah.
So giving this growthopportunity with compassion,
with mercy again, is superimportant patience, I would say,
(24:06):
also is important to be patientwith them.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
They're still learning.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
They have a long way to go, I guess yeah, one uh,
yeah, I like a lot here forextracting patience from mercy.
I, I believe when you're, youhave mercy, you have patience,
you have a lot to give, you'regoing to be generous, you're
going to give opportunities andchances and the patience is
super important.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Super important too, yeah, so what's if you could
just say one small change theMuslim community could do to
provide more support forconverts?
What would that be?
Speaker 3 (24:45):
Stop asking them about their progress.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Right.
I could imagine that makes themfeel defensive probably.
Speaker 3 (24:54):
It makes them feel anxious, makes them feel we're
missing out, we don't know weare starting the race when a lot
of people are in the middle ofthe race or halfway or end of
the race.
I heard that from convertswhere I want to be a good Muslim
(25:15):
, I want to work in dawah, Iwant to um, do um, everything
that other muslims do.
And then when their friends orwhen their family members start
asking where you at and did youlearn quran?
Did you, uh, learn arabic?
(25:36):
Did you hear to scholar, fulanor scholar or um, this is um
right, are you an alima?
yet right, you should studymaliki, fake or something which
madhab, or what exactly exactlyit happens, wallahi, and and it
becomes very, it's very anxietyprovoking to muslims, like born
(25:59):
into muslims and uh for, uh forconverts.
It's, it's very overwhelming,very overwhelming, and and
sometimes hinders them from likeokay, well, regardless how many
steps I'm going to take, I'mstill going to be behind.
Then procrastination comes,because procrastination is
(26:20):
nothing but anxiety.
So it's just okay, I, I'm notmoving, I don't want to do it.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
I feel like we ask from converts more than we ask
ourselves like, are we actuallylearning fiqh and Quran and
doing da'wah?
Speaker 3 (26:38):
I don't know where we get this guts and audacity to
do that, subhanallah.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
This reminds me of a friend who recently or more of
an acquaintance daughter shejust recently converted from
Judaism to Islam.
Yeah, after she saw theresilience of the Palestinian
people, Subhanallah.
So what's something you thinkthe Muslim community is getting
(27:06):
right, actually, and you wouldlike to see more of?
Speaker 3 (27:09):
The programs that are at the masajid that I'm
starting to see a growth in.
Whether you are a convert orwhether you are a Muslim like,
born into Islam and you wouldlike to learn more and be a
student of knowledge.
It's beautiful initiatives andI would love for all the
(27:34):
masajids to have it.
It's very, very crucial in thistime because our aqidah is at
risk.
There's so much noise out therefor all of us and just to
assume that we know what Lailaha illallah, muhammad
Rasulullah, means in how we sayit, how we apply it, how we live
(27:56):
by it, how we align ouractivities with it, is an
understatement.
We were very far yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
So let's say your DMs .
They have flooded with convertslooking for hope.
What's the one liner you wouldsend to all of them?
Speaker 3 (28:13):
You're the best there you go.
You know what else I would say?
I wish?
Mashallah tabarakallah.
I wish I had a chance to haveall my sins forgiven and start
from scratch.
And that's why you're just,you're the best.
(28:34):
You have it.
Mashallah tabarakallah, andthat's why you're just, you're
the best you have it.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
mashallah tabarakallah, if anybody is
seeking your services, wantsprofessional help, how can?
Speaker 3 (28:45):
they find you and reach out to you.
So I am part of the CanadianMuslim Counseling Team.
Our services is virtual, whichis great, alhamdulillah, because
it reaches all over the world.
Alhamdulillah, our website iscanadianmuslimcounselingca.
(29:09):
We have, alhamdulillah, abeautiful selection of
therapists.
We have imams who aretherapists, we have
psychologists, we have socialworkers, masha'allah catering to
many languages as well, whichis a huge privilege, would love
to everyone is welcome,jazakumullah khair, for breaking
(29:30):
the stigma here, because it'svery much needed in the Muslim
community.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
Jazakumullah khair for sharing your knowledge and
message of hope, and to anyconverts out there listening,
like Aya said, you're the best.
May Allah keep you steadfastand reward you with a spouse
that will, I guess, know how tosay I don't know Exactly,
exactly Together.
You could say, I guess know howto say.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
I don't know exactly exactly together you could say I
don't know and start yourjourney together, empowering
each other, nurturing each other.
Mashallah, tabarkallah, forAllah's sake, ya rabb, may Allah
accept and to our beautifullisteners.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Thank you so much.
Inshallah, we'll see you in thenext episode.
Assalamualaikum.
Assalamu alaikum, I'm Hiba.
And I'm Zaid, you're listeningto Diary of a Matchmaker.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
A podcast that will take you into our world as
matchmakers.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
We'll share our experiences and offer advice for
the single Muslim.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
So let's dive in Bismillah.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Assalamu alaikum everyone.
Welcome to another episode.
My name is Hiba and on theother mic is my husband and
co-host, zaid.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Assalamu alaikum everyone.
Inshaallah, today we have a.
We're honored to have a guest,aya Nirmatullah.
She is a registeredpsychotherapist with Canadian
Muslim Counseling.
She completed her graduatestudies in counseling psychology
at Yorkville University and oneof the segments of people that
(00:43):
she works with are converts, so,inshallah, today we'll be
focusing a lot on that topic.
It's something we haven'texplored before, so I'm excited
to jump into this.
A lot of her work focuses onself-awareness, emotional
healing, helping clients buildtools that they need to thrive,
all while staying grounded inIslamic values.
(01:04):
So thank you for coming on tothe podcast.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Welcome Aya.
How are you?
Jazakumullah khair,assalamualaikum, Heba and Zaid,
I'm very honored to be here withyou and Jazakallah khair for
the introduction.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Thank you for accepting our invitation.
Okay, let's get right into it.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
So how have you seen the Muslim community romanticize
the convert journey while atthe same time falling short when
it comes to things likemarriage support?
Speaker 3 (01:33):
It's a privilege, to be honest, to work with converts
.
I feel very small.
When I'm in the presence of aconvert as a community, I feel
like we're not doing the bestthat we should be doing when it
comes to their support, theirwelcoming, their existence
(01:53):
around them when they need us Atfirst is the cheer and the
Allahu Akbar and welcome in.
And everyone has goosebumps Ido too, but because I work with
them on a daily and weekly basis, I can see their struggles from
(02:14):
both sides, from their ownfamily of origin and how they're
trying.
Where do we belong exactly?
Do we belong back where we camefrom or do we belong with our
new community?
So it is a struggle,subhanallah.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Are there a lot of converts, by the way, in Canada
and the States?
Speaker 3 (02:34):
SubhanAllah, there is a decent number.
They're beautiful people.
Allahumma wa barak, especiallyafter the genocide and the war
happening right now, there aremore.
And allahumma wa barak genocideand the war right now happening
right now, there are more, andit's all Allah not not anything
(03:00):
of the existing Muslims workunfortunately, we haven't said
the best example, unfortunately.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
So what is the common thread that you find with
regards to converts when theyseek your help?
Speaker 3 (03:09):
So my work is a wide spectrum of issues and
challenges.
Everyone brings their ownbaggage, whether it's their
personal trauma, whether thestruggle again with their
families.
A lot of them, once theyannounce their conversion to
(03:29):
Islam or acceptance of Islam,they become really attacked,
expelled from their heritage,from their family, their
possessions taken away.
So it's yeah, there are a lotof trauma around that and that's
why I'm saying the Muslimcommunity is really falling
(03:52):
short in providing this strongsupport.
So it's a wide, wide variety ofissues.
And this is as individuals I'mnot even talking about couples.
I meet individuals, I meetcouples, I meet families.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
So yeah, you said their possessions are taken away
from them.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
If it's a car, it's taken away.
If they're kicked out of thehouse, they're on their own.
If the reason or one of theways they were introduced to
Islam is by knowing a partner,so again it's you're on your own
with that person, whether it'sa male or a female.
Go figure out a new life onyour own.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
May Allah make it easy for them.
Ya Rabb, ya Rabb ameen.
So, when it comes to marriage,converts seeking marriage what
are the struggles?
Speaker 3 (04:44):
that come with that.
I think the first struggle isthe convert themselves seeing
themselves as not good enough.
I heard it, I heard it beforefrom converts as in I am not
good enough.
As a born into muslim which isnot true at all at all I could
(05:05):
say that it's a completeopposite.
Sometimes, um, a lot of timesit it impacts their, their
confidence, it impacts whatthey're bringing into the
relationship.
Um, it's always a struggle.
If they start on this note, likeI'm not good enough, I am a
secondhand in, like a citizen inthis, in this relationship, it
(05:31):
just drags into more problems,and I'm talking about women, men
and women equally.
If I'm not going into thisrelationship feeling that I'm of
value, I'm adding a lot intothis relationship, it will cause
a lot of damage lack ofconfidence, lack of self-esteem,
(05:53):
codependency, like we call itin psychotherapy, enmeshment,
too dependent on my partner.
There are no set boundaries, nohealthy boundaries.
I would say it's just a seriesof problems from one thing to
the other.
If you want to even drag itmore, it impacts their children
(06:15):
as well.
Subhanallah, it just it doesn'tend.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Wow, I would have assumed that, like converts are
usually looked at as a cleanslate.
They have a clean slate.
They are better than the restof us, so they're held at higher
standards.
That's what I would assume.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
I was just amazed that they want to come and speak
with me, because I'm always andforever regarding them as much
better, to be honest, much, muchbetter, because they're the
ones who went out and soughttruth and they're the ones who,
of course, with Allah'sgenerosity and mercy and
guidance and everything Allah'sthe best of planners, of course
they put the work I was borninto Muslim Like I didn't do
(07:13):
anything.
Subhanallah.
So you would think, you wouldthink, but they have their own
struggles.
They have their own strugglesfrom their community and from
the Muslim communities,subhanallah.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Yeah, I feel like the clean slate, the phrase that
you just used that gets probablythrown around a lot where it
has an impact.
So what impact do you feel thisassumption that converts are
just a quote-unquote, clean, noblank slate have on the way
they're treated in marriageconversations?
Because I feel like that reallysometimes can set them up to be
(07:47):
taken advantage of in somecircumstances.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
I think, in my experience working with converts
, I always saw it, I alwaysexperienced it with the convert
from you need to be the betterperson, you need to be maybe
unrealistic.
Um, you need to be the betterperson, you need to be maybe
unrealistic.
So my expectations from theperson in front of me becomes
unrealistic.
He's still a human being orshe's still a human being.
(08:12):
What happens is they're clean,like a clean slate, because
allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala,granted them this blessing, not
because there's.
At the end of the day, they'rehuman beings like us.
They sin, like us, like they.
It just becomes doublestandards sometimes.
Yeah, which?
Speaker 1 (08:32):
is totally unfair.
What about the complexities ofseeking marriage Like?
How do they, how do they seekmarriage?
Are they like, accepted andwelcomed in the, in the, in
their new community, or are bornMuslims, hesitant to marry
their daughters to them, or liketheir sons or whatever?
Speaker 3 (08:51):
It's a case by case, I believe from my humble
experience.
It's a case by case whether thefamily is mature enough to
understand what Islam is allabout and how welcoming Islam
should be.
But a lot of families,especially traditional Muslims,
(09:15):
are worried about their level ofIslam compared to the converts,
and that's exactly how it'sseen, unfortunately, even though
the truth could have been,could be completely the opposite
, um.
But they would make it harderfor a convert to um to be
welcomed and to be given thischance, an opportunity of growth
(09:38):
, which is very unfortunate.
In my work I deal more with,like, my caseload is more of
after marriage.
After marriage, and maybe thiswill come up in the discussion
but how the relationship becomesout of balance as well.
(09:59):
In terms of what, of what?
In terms of the, for example,if it's a lady who, a girl, who
just accepted Islam and goinginto a Muslim family, they
accepted her, they are herprimary source of knowledge, so
(10:20):
they will be representing Islamin all forms, shape and messages
, knowledge, which is, I find it, a big problem, very
problematic For a Muslim, letalone a convert, to seek Islamic
knowledge from a human beinglike just a regular human being
(10:42):
and putting them on the pedestallike they are.
My knowledge, this is a crisisBecause what I'm working with on
a daily basis is, like wealways say, the people, the
Muslims, do not represent Islam.
Unfortunately, right now, thisis a crisis that we're all
living through, so it becomeseven tougher for converts to
(11:04):
live through this, and there's alot of brainwash, a lot of
brainwashing.
This is Islam, this is what isexpected, and when we dissect it
and we analyze it together,it's all cultural, traditional
rituals.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
So they're not directing them to a scholar,
someone of knowledge, they'rejust feeding them that cultural
understanding of Islam instead.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
Which does not happen automatically like that,
because they are stuck in theirown ways and it takes a long
time From my experience, ittakes a long time for them to
come out of this safety shellbecause he or she were safe for
the safety zone.
So to figure out that what'shappening is not right and we
(11:51):
need to seek knowledge outthrough a scholar to a ma'am, a
sheikh, a community in themasjid, community in the Islamic
center.
It takes a lot of courage to dothat.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
So, given you've seen a lot in the marriage phase,
what are some steps a convertcould take to prevent some of
those pitfalls, some red flagsthat they can look out for to
protect themselves fromsituations like that?
Speaker 3 (12:17):
Marriage is marriage, marriage is marriage, so the
process for, like premaritaltherapy, premarital assessment
would be the same for all.
In my opinion, seek their ownpath of knowledge and do not
(12:42):
associate it with a human being,with a partner or the family
member or a regular student ofknowledge.
This will make a hugedifference in reducing the
trauma that they might be aboutto experience they might be
(13:03):
about to experience.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
So, do you like, have you witnessed a situation where
, because of the way Islam wasintroduced to this new convert
and his interactions with hisnew family, have there been
cases where they actually endedup just leaving Islam?
Speaker 3 (13:19):
A few cases popped to mind.
They do not leave Islamalhamdulillah, but they're not
practicing the way they shouldbe.
They're not.
There is a lot of questioning.
Why is this happening toMuslims?
We're now talking about aqidah.
(13:40):
We went back to the basics andthe aqidah is very questionable.
Why is this happening to me?
And instead of using the rightterms, the right words, it all
comes back to why is Allah doingthis?
I don't understand.
(14:00):
It's just so much chaos andunfortunately, yeah, the aqidah
is the victim here.
In my experience, nobody left,but then they need a long
journey of coming back to wherethey started.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
SubhanAllah, a case comes to mind where this guy
married a convert and then hetook a second wife secretly and
then ended up divorcing hisconvert wife.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
How local tell us about it, not surprised.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Hey, if you have a story to tell, we'd love to have
you on here.
You'll find a safe space oflisteners who can understand
what you're going through.
Just shoot us an email with asummary of your story at info at
halalmatchca.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
If you could let's talk kind of hypothetical here
If you could design apre-marriage course just for
converts, what lessons orconversations would you make
sure to include?
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Beautiful question.
I love that In my work I always,during supervision meetings, we
have these hypothetical cases.
If we have, like our own centerfor marriage, if we have our own
center for inpatient forMuslims, if we have.
So in this situation there'snothing better than to follow
(15:27):
the prophetic approach Welcoming, compassionate, accepting of
all Our Prophet peace be uponhim used to pay attention, be
present and be compassionate andkind to everyone, to the old,
to the young, to the sick, tothe healthy, to the Muslims, to
(15:51):
the non-Muslims, to the enemiesand friends.
So, from that perspective, if Iam designing a program for
converts, the first, the archingmessage would be welcoming will
be the true welcoming acceptingas you are.
You are not less of anything.
(16:12):
I'm actually, I'm the one who'sless.
Probably what would also be inmind is having a body like
creating a body system like theAnsar al-Muhajirin, in a sense,
like a convert would havesomeone who is willing is not
just a name or a title or aposition that is willing to be
(16:35):
working with them, in supporting, in growing together, in just
nurturing each other.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
What about Muslims, born Muslims, who are
considering marrying a convert?
What advice would you give them?
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Letta Qula.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
That's the best advice.
You can't beat that advice, Imean I feel that applies to
anybody who's getting married,right?
Speaker 3 (17:06):
And this is my now, all the time, for, like whoever
is seeking marriage or gettingmarried, because if I'm not
fearful of Allah in my actions,what else is going to be my
standard, to be honest?
What else is going to be mystandard, to be honest, what is
going to hold me accountable oror prevent me from hurting
someone or prevent, prevent mefrom overpassing anything that
(17:29):
I'm not allowed to do?
The taqala?
Uh, you're not.
You're not better than them byany means.
And um, when I was actuallyalso saying a taqala in my mind,
I was saying start yourknowledge seeking journey,
become students of knowledge.
Know that whatever you do isgoing to be what is Hujjah Lakum
(17:55):
, hujjah Lakum and not HujjahLakum.
So it's going to be countedagainst you?
Not, probably, it would becounted against you, not because
I don't want to paint thispessimistic, it couldn't be, it
couldn't be written in your gooddeeds, the book of good deeds,
inshallah.
But um, the taqwa comes firstyeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
I would say, especially maybe for us arabs.
We should learn how to say Idon't know.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Absolutely.
Oh my God, I cannot scream itenough.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
It's like it's a shame to say I don't know.
I have to know everything.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
Yeah, yeah.
I have so much more to say inthis department.
I come from a place where it'sabsolutely I but haram to say I
don't know.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
Yes, okay, can you maybe share a story anonymously?
Of course, that demonstratesthe maybe, the challenges and
the strengths that a convert isto go through, their experience,
especially if it'smarriage-related.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
A very strong story comes to mind where a person, a
particular person, came from adysfunctional family of origin
and subhanAllah was introducedto Islam through a friend at a
high school and she becameinterested in Islam and she
(19:30):
started to grow to just seekknowledge and try to understand
what was.
What's it all about?
Accepted Islam and said hershahadaah, took her shahadah,
mashallah tabarakallah, but shewas in hiding years for a while
and it was very, very traumatic,very anxiety provoking, because
(19:53):
she would be going above andbeyond to fast in a very
non-Islamic household, fast in avery non-Islamic household, and
she knows that if anyonebecomes aware of that, it's
(20:13):
going to be very, veryproblematic.
Her hiding years were not easy,were not easy whatsoever.
And when that friend came alongafter and proposed was Muslim,
but this actually cost herliving with her parents because
they did not accept.
They did not accept her Islam,they did not accept her to marry
(20:33):
a Muslim, so they kicked herout.
Then she got married.
She got married into a Muslimfamily, the husband's family,
who took her in.
Of course there is a lot oftraumatic details, but again, a
(20:56):
lot of what I was saying thatthere is a lot of cultural
aspects and just blockage onboth sides, whether the
non-Muslim family or the Muslimfamily.
Yeah, she's a hero, to behonest.
Mashallah, allahumma, grant hersteadfastness, ya.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Rabb.
I mean please tell me she'shappily married, that her new
family is good.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
There was a lot, a lot, a lot, after a lot of years
, to be honest.
Alhamdulillah, she is happilymarried, allahumma bai'at.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
If you're overwhelmed and burdened and just don't
know where to seek help, let ushelp you.
We can be your personalmatchmakers.
Visit us at halalmatchca andbook a free call with us.
(21:57):
Just hear that story.
I know I do that a lot.
I'll admit it.
Whenever I meet a convert, Ijust want to know what their
story is.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Yeah, actually last week on this podcast we had a
financial expert who's also aconvert, jesse Reitberger.
It's amazing, his story waslike something like he went
after he converted to Islam sohe was working with like banking
and investments and stuff andhe went to kind of get new
clients in his new masjid.
But people didn't want to talkto him because they're like all
(22:27):
you do is haram, you're workingwith haram.
And then he started studyingand learning about what he was
doing and now, mashallah, heoffers investment advice to
Muslims.
Allahumma barak.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
Wow, wow, mashallah.
May Allah guide him and guideus all.
Mashallah, this is amazing.
Their work, I'm telling you,their work, is just very crucial
.
It comes out of sincere loveand wanting to excel.
Mashallah, tawarq Allah, it'sjust inspiring Allahumma barak,
(23:00):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
So a question about the parents now, parents who are
expecting or like welcoming aconvert into their family.
Let's say they, their daughteris marrying a convert, their son
is marrying a convert.
What advice would you give them?
Speaker 3 (23:16):
Have mercy and again it sounds like a cliched
statement for all couples, butwelcome that member as your son
or daughter.
But again, on an even moreresponsible or accountable note
is you might be the source forthat person to pick up a
(23:42):
behavior or a belief or astatement that could send you
straight to Jannah, because theyare in dire need to hear that
and without this advice, or withthe opposite advice, you're
sending them the other way,subhanallah.
So giving this growthopportunity with compassion,
with mercy again, is superimportant patience, I would say,
(24:06):
also is important to be patientwith them.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
They're still learning.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
They have a long way to go, I guess yeah, one uh,
yeah, I like a lot here forextracting patience from mercy.
I, I believe when you're, youhave mercy, you have patience,
you have a lot to give, you'regoing to be generous, you're
going to give opportunities andchances and the patience is
super important.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Super important too, yeah, so what's if you could
just say one small change theMuslim community could do to
provide more support forconverts?
What would that be?
Speaker 3 (24:45):
Stop asking them about their progress.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Right.
I could imagine that makes themfeel defensive probably.
Speaker 3 (24:54):
It makes them feel anxious, makes them feel we're
missing out, we don't know weare starting the race when a lot
of people are in the middle ofthe race or halfway or end of
the race.
I heard that from convertswhere I want to be a good Muslim
(25:15):
, I want to work in dawah, Iwant to um, do um, everything
that other muslims do.
And then when their friends orwhen their family members start
asking where you at and did youlearn quran?
Did you, uh, learn arabic?
(25:36):
Did you hear to scholar, fulanor scholar or um, this is um
right, are you an alima?
yet right, you should studymaliki, fake or something which
madhab, or what exactly exactlyit happens, wallahi, and and it
becomes very, it's very anxietyprovoking to muslims, like born
(25:59):
into muslims and uh for, uh forconverts.
It's, it's very overwhelming,very overwhelming, and and
sometimes hinders them from likeokay, well, regardless how many
steps I'm going to take, I'mstill going to be behind.
Then procrastination comes,because procrastination is
(26:20):
nothing but anxiety.
So it's just okay, I, I'm notmoving, I don't want to do it.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
I feel like we ask from converts more than we ask
ourselves like, are we actuallylearning fiqh and Quran and
doing da'wah?
Speaker 3 (26:38):
I don't know where we get this guts and audacity to
do that, subhanallah.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
This reminds me of a friend who recently or more of
an acquaintance daughter shejust recently converted from
Judaism to Islam.
Yeah, after she saw theresilience of the Palestinian
people, Subhanallah.
So what's something you thinkthe Muslim community is getting
(27:06):
right, actually, and you wouldlike to see more of?
Speaker 3 (27:09):
The programs that are at the masajid that I'm
starting to see a growth in.
Whether you are a convert orwhether you are a Muslim like,
born into Islam and you wouldlike to learn more and be a
student of knowledge.
It's beautiful initiatives andI would love for all the
(27:34):
masajids to have it.
It's very, very crucial in thistime because our aqidah is at
risk.
There's so much noise out therefor all of us and just to
assume that we know what Lailaha illallah, muhammad
Rasulullah, means in how we sayit, how we apply it, how we live
(27:56):
by it, how we align ouractivities with it, is an
understatement.
We were very far yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
So let's say your DMs .
They have flooded with convertslooking for hope.
What's the one liner you wouldsend to all of them?
Speaker 3 (28:13):
You're the best there you go.
You know what else I would say?
I wish?
Mashallah tabarakallah.
I wish I had a chance to haveall my sins forgiven and start
from scratch.
And that's why you're just,you're the best.
(28:34):
You have it.
Mashallah tabarakallah, andthat's why you're just, you're
the best you have it.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
mashallah tabarakallah, if anybody is
seeking your services, wantsprofessional help, how can?
Speaker 3 (28:45):
they find you and reach out to you.
So I am part of the CanadianMuslim Counseling Team.
Our services is virtual, whichis great, alhamdulillah, because
it reaches all over the world.
Alhamdulillah, our website iscanadianmuslimcounselingca.
(29:09):
We have, alhamdulillah, abeautiful selection of
therapists.
We have imams who aretherapists, we have
psychologists, we have socialworkers, masha'allah catering to
many languages as well, whichis a huge privilege, would love
to everyone is welcome,jazakumullah khair, for breaking
(29:30):
the stigma here, because it'svery much needed in the Muslim
community.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
Jazakumullah khair for sharing your knowledge and
message of hope, and to anyconverts out there listening,
like Aya said, you're the best.
May Allah keep you steadfastand reward you with a spouse
that will, I guess, know how tosay I don't know Exactly,
exactly Together.
You could say, I guess know howto say.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
I don't know exactly exactly together you could say I
don't know and start yourjourney together, empowering
each other, nurturing each other.
Mashallah, tabarkallah, forAllah's sake, ya rabb, may Allah
accept and to our beautifullisteners.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Thank you so much.
Inshallah, we'll see you in thenext episode.
Assalamualaikum.
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