November 21, 2025 • 39 mins
We never thought we’d say this out loud… but we were that Muslim couple who confidently said, “We’re not having kids.” Full stop. And now? Alhamdullilah! We’re expecting. This episode is one of the rawest we’ve ever recorded: the real fears, the private conversations, the guilt, the relief, and the plot twist that changed everything.
But this isn’t just about us. It’s about you, the single Muslim who’s unsure about kids, overwhelmed by the world, afraid of losing yourself, or scared of choosing the wrong partner. We dig into why so many of us avoid the topic, what actually sits underneath the hesitation, and how perspectives can shift with time, healing, and the right person.
It’s honest, messy, and very real. You’ll feel seen.
If something we said made you think, laugh, or feel seen, leave us a rating and review! It helps more people find the show. And hey, if you know someone who needs to hear this episode, send it their way. Sharing is caring!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Assalamu alaikum.
I'm Hiba.
SPEAKER_01 (00:02):
And I'm Zayd.
SPEAKER_02 (00:02):
You're listening to Diary of a Matchmaker.
SPEAKER_01 (00:05):
A podcast that will take you into our world as
matchmakers.
SPEAKER_02 (00:08):
We'll share our experiences and offer advice for
the single Muslim.
SPEAKER_01 (00:12):
So let's dive in.
Bismillah.
Asalaamu alaikum, everyone.
Welcome back to another episode.
SPEAKER_02 (00:21):
As salam alaikum.
SPEAKER_01 (00:22):
Children.
Children is part of theconversations that come up
during the courting phase.
And children were also somethingthat we discussed when we were
going through our courtingphase.
SPEAKER_00 (00:32):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (00:32):
It was actually a big part of our conversation.
But you had your fears bringingit up, and I had my fears.
And for a good reason, though.
Because if you have some sort ofextreme views when it comes to
children, you don't want that tokind of deter the person that
you're talking to.
SPEAKER_00 (00:50):
Correct.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (00:51):
But why don't we start with you?
How what were your thoughts andfeelings around the topic of
children when you were talkingto me?
SPEAKER_02 (00:58):
Okay, so honestly, like growing up, I know you
asked me about when we weretalking, but I'll just tell you
before.
Growing up, like I alwayspictured myself as a mother,
having children, especiallyafter like um seeing my sister
having children, they're so cuteand all of that.
But then I don't know whathappened a few years uh before
we started talking.
I completely changed my mind.
(01:19):
And I knew I didn't want to havechildren.
Or anything.
SPEAKER_01 (01:23):
Honestly, trigger feelings.
SPEAKER_02 (01:25):
I think, like subconsciously, like I mentioned
before, because I knew I wasn'tgonna get married.
Marriage is not something that'swritten for me.
So it kind of like my brain justblocked it, so I don't feel like
I'm missing out on something.
SPEAKER_01 (01:39):
Oh, I see.
SPEAKER_02 (01:40):
I think so.
SPEAKER_01 (01:41):
And uh so there wasn't something you saw or an
experience you were.
SPEAKER_02 (01:45):
It wasn't something, but there were other factors.
SPEAKER_01 (01:47):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (01:47):
Other factors, and um, I can elaborate a little bit
more on.
But when we started talking, Iknew I don't want to have
children, but like you said, Iwas so afraid to bring it up
because I liked you so much.
I liked the connection we had,and um, I can see you like as
someone who might be my husbandin the future, and I was afraid
(02:09):
that if I mention it, this isgonna repel you.
You're gonna think, oh my god,what kind of a woman is this?
Every woman thinks aboutbecoming a mother, what kind of
hard, cold-hearted person thisis, and um and then if I change
my mind, you're gonna think, oh,she's only compromising for me.
No, I want somebody who reallywants to have children.
SPEAKER_00 (02:27):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (02:28):
So I was terrified.
I don't remember how we broughtit up.
SPEAKER_01 (02:32):
I think I was the first one to bring it up.
SPEAKER_02 (02:34):
Oh, really?
SPEAKER_01 (02:35):
If I remember correctly, um, because it just
felt like it was the one thingthat was left to discuss.
We had covered pretty mucheverything at that point except
for kids.
And um, I don't know how or if Ihad a very unique question um to
bring it up, but I finallybrought it up and there was just
I think it was probably on avideo call, there was just this
(02:57):
immense relief that you hadbecause you realized at that
point that you were that youfelt the same way.
Right?
SPEAKER_02 (03:04):
I don't remember honestly, so I'll take your word
for it.
SPEAKER_01 (03:07):
Yeah, so to kind of help the audience out, uh we at
that point when we were talking,we were very averse to the idea
of having children.
SPEAKER_02 (03:17):
I you know, before you go into that, I want to know
your reasons.
SPEAKER_01 (03:21):
I think it was mainly because of the state of
the world.
Uh I I know I kind of find howdo I f I feel a bit pretentious
saying that, but um the worldwas just really I mean it's in I
would say arguably in a it's ina worse place now than when it
was back in 2019.
Of course.
But uh global warming was moreof an issue then in terms of how
(03:44):
frequently it was brought up anddiscussed.
I was just seeing people aroundme burned out, overwhelmed, just
waiting for the weekend.
Oh, and the other reason wasbecause I looked at life as kind
of two things.
Either A you go the traditionalroute, which is a nine to five,
you work, maybe oftentimes it'sit's a job that you hate, and
(04:06):
you just wait for the weekends,or you pursue the more
unconventional route, business,art, things like things that are
are more typically unstable, andyou try to build some sort of
future around that.
But children typically don'tfall into the latter picture,
right?
Yeah, like naturally withchildren you need a stable
(04:29):
environment, you need financialstability, you need to s be able
to spend time with them, right?
And a conventional job allowsfor that, yeah, right?
So I was pursuing art, I waspresuming pursuing a more
unconventional route in life,and I didn't see children
fitting into that picture.
SPEAKER_00 (04:48):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (04:48):
So that's why I said, no, I don't think children
are gonna happen for me becausethis is the kind of life I want
to pursue.
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (04:56):
Yeah.
But you know, being afraid uhlike about the state of the
world, whether it's the climateissues or just the political
scene, the amount of injusticein the world, that was one of my
reasons as well.
And another reason was for somereason I felt that I wasn't
gonna be a good mom.
Like I don't have what it takesto give a baby, to give a child
(05:19):
a good life.
And I'm not talking aboutmaterial stuff.
And I felt honestly, like wementioned on um that episode
with Coach Mesa.
Yeah, a great episode, by theway, guys.
If you're thinking aboutchildren, it's it's a must-watch
or must-listen.
But as I said on that episode,that I feel a lot of people they
shouldn't have children, theyshouldn't be allowed to have
children because I see I seechildren around me being like
(05:42):
ruined, their lives being ruinedbecause of the poor way they
were brought up.
SPEAKER_01 (05:46):
Sounds wrong kind of saying that I don't feel like we
should be saying that becauseAllah is the one that ultimately
decides who should have childrenaround the world.
Of course, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (05:52):
I'm not like uh gonna go and like uh say
something blasphemous.
Of course, of course not, butit's just like infuriating
seeing the way people bring uptheir children, some people.
And another reason was as youknow, because I have a genetic
uh problem.
Right.
And I didn't want to pass that.
SPEAKER_01 (06:10):
Right, right.
But so you had legitimate fears.
Uh so fast forward.
Um, so that was what 20 dishes.
No, no, no.
SPEAKER_02 (06:20):
Before you fast forward, yeah, let's go back to
that conversation.
So to our conversation, how didwe talk about it?
SPEAKER_01 (06:26):
There wasn't much less to talk about.
You just had this immense senseof relief that we were like, oh
my god, I feel the same way.
But the other thing was is thatI remember, so I do remember
this.
We were at the ICNA convention,yeah, and uh Sheikh Yasubirjas
was talking, and it was aparenting conversation,
something something like that.
(06:46):
I remember one thing he saidthat stood out, which is for the
people that are newly married,if if you're not thinking about
children at some point in yourlife, whether you know, four or
five years into your marriage,you're gonna get bored.
Right?
Like the the point was is thatyou're gonna get bored doing the
same thing over and over againfour or five years into your
(07:09):
marriage, and that you're goingto need children to add spice in
your life.
That's pretty much he wassaying.
I know I probably phrased it.
SPEAKER_02 (07:16):
I didn't believe it when I heard that, honestly.
But you remember him sayingthat, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, but uh yes, uh you know, Ifelt like I hit the jackpot.
Is that the right expression?
SPEAKER_00 (07:26):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (07:26):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because like it's very rare, orat least in my life, I've never
met any any man who's notinterested in having children.
Like, even a lot of people, theyjust get married for the purpose
of having children.
My friend, one of my friendstold me the only reason I got
married to my husband is just tohave children.
Yeah.
And when my parents like learnedabout this, my dad couldn't like
(07:48):
comprehend it.
Like, I don't understand.
Like, what do you mean?
You want to get married, but youdon't want to have children.
Like in my culture, at least myparents' generation, it's
unheard of for a couple to likeintentionally decide not to have
children.
But like you said, lo andbehold, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (08:05):
So fast forward.
SPEAKER_02 (08:05):
Fast forward.
SPEAKER_01 (08:06):
Fast forward.
So that was November in December2019.
Then alhamdulillah, we had ourNika, and now here we are 2025,
and uh we're expecting our firstchild.
So this is actually our firsttime revealing it on the
podcast.
SPEAKER_00 (08:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (08:20):
But um, how did we get from there to here is kind
of weird.
SPEAKER_02 (08:27):
Um, quite the journey.
SPEAKER_01 (08:28):
Yeah, yeah.
So before finding out that wewere expecting, we had pretty
much given up the idea of havingchildren.
I'm not gonna go into too muchdetail about you know the things
we did and and how much wetried, but we had just pretty
much come to terms that thatchildren isn't meant for us and
(08:49):
that uh we should just reallyfocus right now on growing our
matchmaking service, growing ourfood business, and for just
pursuing other things,traveling, whatever it might be.
Just uh towards the end of ourvacation, we find out that uh
we're expecting Actually it'sthe first day the same day where
we got back from Colombia.
SPEAKER_02 (09:08):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (09:09):
So we get back from our vacation uh from Colombia
and uh we find out you'repregnant.
SPEAKER_02 (09:14):
Yeah.
How many years in our marriagewent before we decided we want
to have children?
SPEAKER_01 (09:19):
That's a good question.
SPEAKER_02 (09:21):
So I I I think we've been trying for two years,
right?
SPEAKER_01 (09:24):
Yeah.
I think it was you that was rempretty much the driving force
behind that, to be honest.
SPEAKER_02 (09:30):
You know why?
Because I was just thinkingabout the future.
Like I didn't have this stronguh motherly instinct which women
usually have, but I was justthinking about the future.
How is the future gonna look?
Are we gonna regret this in thefuture?
Right.
I remember your old age.
SPEAKER_01 (09:46):
Yeah, I remember you kept saying that you would like
to have somebody in your oldage.
Like God forbid one of us passesaway and there's nobody gonna
that would be around to takecare of us.
SPEAKER_02 (09:55):
But it wasn't about like having children so they can
take care of us, but it's aboutcompanionship.
It's about like I don't know,it's just the f the the future
looked very uh not gloomy, butuh just very scary without
children.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (10:11):
I wouldn't say I think it was mainly so you have
somebody in your old age to bewith you, not necessarily take
care of you because I don'twanna I don't ever want to be a
burden for my children.
Of course not.
But um I would obviously like mychildren to be around and
obviously see them and thingslike that.
So just to have someone aroundin your old age, because you see
(10:32):
old people I mean, like I canthink of one of your customers,
right?
Uh from when we were running ourghost kitchen.
People in their old age thatjust have nobody and they just
wake up with nothing to do,nobody around them, no family,
no children, no grandkids.
And it's it is pretty miserable.
SPEAKER_02 (10:49):
It's a depressing image.
SPEAKER_01 (10:50):
It is, it is.
So we we pivoted.
Um, and it wasn't just like aflip of a switch.
We we talked about it, were-evaluated our circumstances,
and then at the end of the day,I mean the Quran says it
clearly.
Right?
Like, don't kill your childrenout of poverty, like not
(11:12):
literally in that sense, but thepoint is like put your trust in
Allah that we provide for them,we provide for you.
So that Allah is the provider,that your risk comes from Allah.
Obviously, plan and and do yourpart and tie your camel, put
then put your trust in Allah,right?
If I'm understanding that versecorrectly.
SPEAKER_02 (11:32):
Yeah, uh, I was never honestly worried about the
finances because I alwaysbelieve I always believe that
children come with their risk.
But you know what I noticed?
We're not a unique case.
Out of our clients, I can thinkof three people who stated that
they don't want to havechildren.
SPEAKER_01 (11:46):
For sure, yeah.
But still, I would argue thatit's not the the what do you
call the the general consensus.
SPEAKER_00 (11:54):
No, no, no, no.
SPEAKER_01 (11:54):
Right?
There's there is the majority ofpeople do want children,
especially guys.
SPEAKER_00 (11:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (11:59):
The question is, why are people not wanting children?
And people come with a myriad ofdifferent reasons.
SPEAKER_02 (12:05):
Yeah.
But you know, when we startedpreparing for this episode, I
just thought, okay, it's like asimple question.
Yeah, people don't want theirresponsibility.
But after thinking about it anddoing more research, it turns
out there are so many morereasons.
Like it's more nuanced than whatyou would think.
SPEAKER_01 (12:20):
Yeah, yeah.
So the first reason that comesto mind is that people don't
want to recreate the trauma thatthey experience, given obviously
that they had a very traumaticchild childhood.
Yeah.
So some of the reasons or thingsthat people will say on the
registration form is that Idon't want to end up like my
parents.
I don't want to recreate for mychildren the same childhood that
(12:44):
I had.
Yeah.
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (12:46):
And I feel this uh reason we don't talk about it.
And sometimes like the personthey themselves they don't
realize that this is the reason,it's subconscious.
SPEAKER_01 (12:54):
Yeah, and that's unfair because alhamdulillah, we
have so many professionalresources, Muslim professional
resources that can help younavigate that.
So to use that as an excuse isis really kind of a poor way
out, I would say.
(13:23):
Which begs the next question, uhwhich is is there a willingness
to work on yourself or not?
SPEAKER_02 (13:28):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Do you realize you have aproblem?
SPEAKER_01 (13:30):
Do you realize you have a problem?
Are you uh being lazy aboutself-growth and improvement and
self-help?
So this abundance ofprofessional Muslim resources,
Muslim mental health is becomingwidespread and common.
So there's no reason to not seektreatment.
SPEAKER_02 (13:50):
And if you don't work on your trauma, it's not
just gonna stop at I don't wantto have children.
It's gonna like come indifferent different ways and
different shapes throughout yourlife, throughout your
relationships.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (14:01):
So the question to ask yourself is are you making
this decision because yougenerally don't want kids?
Or are you just terrified thatyou'll repeat what happened to
you as a child?
Take scourage.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (14:15):
Another reason is more of a religious reason,
which is like people some peoplefeel like I'm not at the place I
want religiously.
I'm not like I have a long wayto go in uh my relationship with
Allah.
I can bring up another humanbeing to this life, like right.
SPEAKER_01 (14:33):
Or or the fear that you know you're gonna raise a
children that's gonna fall offthe path.
Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_02 (14:39):
And uh I don't have what it takes to bring up uh
righteous children.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (14:43):
So what if they grow up and they don't pray and that
they don't stay on the deen,then you have to answer for
that.
I guess so the people are just Ican't I'm barely taking
responsibility for myself.
How can I take theresponsibility for another
human?
SPEAKER_02 (14:56):
But we're talking specifically about religious
responsibility, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:58):
So the religious obligation of taking care of
myself, right?
We have a religious obligationto ourselves, yeah, and if we
can't keep up or uh maintainthat responsibility, then how
are we gonna fulfill thatresponsibility with another
human?
SPEAKER_02 (15:10):
You know what?
I'd like to see more of thesepeople than seeing people who
just take parenthood as grantedand just like they they don't
invest in their children, andI'm not talking financially, but
they don't give good terbia,they don't care, their kids
pray, they don't pray.
SPEAKER_01 (15:26):
How they just stick them in Sunday school, exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (15:29):
Like I'd like to see be more people who like take
parenthood very seriously, up tothe point that they might
question if they want to havechildren or not, then have more
of those people.
SPEAKER_01 (15:40):
Oh, they take it seriously when it comes to
education though.
Uh what's another point, anotherreason?
SPEAKER_02 (15:48):
I think women or some women are worried about
ending up parenting alone.
Yeah, because let's face it, ourMuslim men aren't taking as much
responsibility as they should interms of parenting.
They see that theirresponsibility ends at just
providing, right?
When it's much more.
(16:11):
But like 90% of the load is onthem.
SPEAKER_01 (16:14):
Yeah, yeah, because at the end of the day they're
modeling after both parents, notjust one parent.
Exactly.
Right?
So if the father's coming homeand he's not praying or he's
still on his phone, then that'sobviously gonna have an effect,
right?
SPEAKER_02 (16:26):
And also like with chores, just taking care of the
children themselves.
Like it's a lot of work.
SPEAKER_01 (16:31):
Well, we don't know that yet.
SPEAKER_02 (16:33):
We see it with like our friends who have children.
Well, I work at a daycarecenter, so yeah, I see it.
Exactly.
And you know what?
Another thing occurred to me.
Some women also might worry thatlook at the percentage of
divorce, look at how many peopleare just leaving their wives,
how many men are leaving theirwives.
I don't want to end up a singleparent.
Like if that situation happenswhere I'm divorced, I don't want
(16:57):
to have the responsibility ofhaving a child.
SPEAKER_01 (17:00):
That's just so silly when I hear it like that.
Because it's like you're goinginto a marriage saying, What if
this?
What if lightning strikes me?
What if like a train hits me?
What if the world ends tomorrow?
What if this?
What if that?
SPEAKER_02 (17:12):
It's like anything can happen.
But for some people, it's moreit's like closer than just
hypothetical.
If they see like failedmarriages in their families and
in their circles, so it's nearerand dearer to their hearts than
just a hypothetical situation.
SPEAKER_01 (17:28):
So to me, the drive would be I'm gonna, I'm not
gonna be another statistic.
I'm gonna do better than thatperson.
I'm gonna do better than myuncle and auntie that got
divorced.
SPEAKER_02 (17:36):
Yeah, but what if you end up like with a guy who
suddenly, you know how youalways say women sometimes just
flip, flip a switch?
SPEAKER_01 (17:43):
Yeah, they yeah, they have a crazy switch.
SPEAKER_02 (17:47):
What if she ends up with a man like this who just
suddenly, I don't know, decides.
SPEAKER_01 (17:51):
What if she gets hit by lightning tomorrow?
SPEAKER_02 (17:53):
No, I'm not justifying it.
I'm not justifying it.
SPEAKER_01 (17:55):
I'm just no, because you're throwing like this
ridiculous what ifs.
SPEAKER_02 (17:58):
I'm saying that some some like what-ifs are more real
for some people than others.
SPEAKER_01 (18:04):
There's no how is a hypothetical divorce more real?
SPEAKER_02 (18:08):
Because I just can't do it.
SPEAKER_01 (18:09):
Just because she's seen it in her family?
Because if it's if it's apattern she grew up with, if
it's she sees miserablemarriages around her, then
that's like saying, Well, I sawuh I know of five family members
that committed suicide, and andI know three people that uh died
by a car accident.
What if that happens in mymarriage?
SPEAKER_00 (18:28):
I don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (18:30):
Like, come on.
It's that's just ridiculous.
No, I can't, I'm not buyingthat.
It's it I think it's a cheap wayout.
Um, but yeah, let's uh shareanother reason.
Um special needs.
Oh, that's that's a scary one.
SPEAKER_02 (18:46):
That's a scary one, especially right now, since we
are expecting.
Yes, yeah.
Yes, it is.
It is it's it's a qadr fromAllah.
You can't yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:55):
Yeah, I mean, there's no way around that.
I mean, it's like the tests ofall tests, I think.
Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (19:01):
Yeah, you know, we have um a girl in our
neighborhood who ended up withher firstborn was like uh
severe, like uh he has a severedisability where he's just
bedridden all day.
Okay.
And it's just like I see how itjust completely changed their
lives.
Like they were a happy couple,and now it's just a full-time
(19:22):
job.
Alhamdulillah, they had healthychildren after him, but it is a
legitimate fear.
And I don't know.
Or maybe it's not a like a hugedisability, but what if we end
up with um I don't know, anautistic child?
Or autism is considered adisability, right?
SPEAKER_01 (19:40):
Yeah, it's yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (19:41):
Okay.
Or I don't know, anything couldhappen.
SPEAKER_01 (19:44):
Um I mean, so there are things to kind of mitigate
that fear, right?
So there is a a test which youcan take, a very expensive test.
So I first and foremost, ourreligion does allow for
abortion.
SPEAKER_02 (19:59):
That's what I was just gonna say.
Like for people who don't careabout half.
Just so for the record.
So for people who don't careabout halal and haram, like uh
it's not gonna be an issue.
Like if they discover at uhmonth five or month six that
there's a disability, then theywould abort, right?
It's just messed up.
It's it's messed up, yeah.
But like Islamically, you haveuntil month number four to
(20:21):
abort, in case not just becauseyou want to, but because there's
a legitimate reason, right?
Right.
And the problem is most uh a lotof these tests uh and a lot of
these conditions, they don'tshow up in the beginning.
Yeah.
So that's a fear.
SPEAKER_01 (20:37):
That's a legitimate, that's more of a legitimate fear
than a hypothetical divorce.
SPEAKER_02 (20:42):
Yeah, I would say subhanAllah, like like you said,
you can't just go with life withwhat if this happens and what if
that, like Right, right.
SPEAKER_01 (20:52):
So I mean at some point, I mean, as the Quran
says, Faida Azam topatawaqalallahu alayhi wa shawl.
Like you make a decision and youput your trust in Allah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:58):
You make dua and you have to waq.
SPEAKER_01 (21:01):
Yeah.
Okay, another reason.
Um, the immigrant parent thatjust guilts you through life.
SPEAKER_02 (21:09):
I feel like you have a lot to say about that.
SPEAKER_01 (21:11):
I do have a lot to say.
I don't know if there's enoughtime for this episode to share.
Oh god.
But what the hell I'll share itanyways.
So it's something I I've sharedthis with you before.
I even shared it with mom once.
I was just thinking a lot theother day about all these girls
that we see that are in theirmid-30s, uh unmarried.
(21:32):
Like we just talked to a girljust last week, and it was the
same s stereotypical situation.
I'm 35, I think she said she was35.
Yeah.
35, uh, I focused on myeducation, and um now I'm a
licensed professional and uh I'mstruggling to find a match.
And what I keep coming back tois the immigrant story.
(21:55):
We've all heard the story,right?
That um parents came, ourimmigrants' parents, uh parents
came in what the 70s, 80s, myparents came in the early 90s uh
to the West.
And some cases parents came withjust five dollars in their
pocket or maybe a couple hundreddollars, and somehow, some way
they made it.
They pursued further education,they built a career for
(22:19):
themselves, they bought a house,and you know, found a way to
settle here in the West.
And essentially, in exchange,what they expected from their
children was to focus on nothingbut education, right?
And they may not articulate itin that way, but the expectation
was that I've sacrificed all ofthese things to build a life for
(22:42):
you guys.
In return, I expect you guys tobecome.
Now, if you're brown, a doctor.
SPEAKER_02 (22:48):
Also, if you're Arab.
SPEAKER_01 (22:49):
Oh, if you're Arab too.
And if not a doctor, okay, maybeI'll settle for a lawyer
engineer.
Right.
And anything short of that, youbetrayed me, you've dishonored
me, you've disgraced me.
Now, obviously, I'm going a biton the extreme here, but you've
got to be.
SPEAKER_02 (23:03):
But you don't appreciate you don't appreciate
all the sacrifices exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (23:07):
Right.
So, and so in many cases, whatyou've seen is one of two
situations.
Um, some children rebelling,going against that, carving
their own path, their own futurefor themselves, and much credit
to them.
But in many cases, um,especially with girls, they've
lived up to that expectation.
And they've focused on nothingbut their education.
(23:28):
They've done everything thattheir parents parents have asked
for um from them, right?
Pursuing an education, going fortheir undergrad for four years,
um, going for medical school foranother four years, residency
for another three, four years,maybe a fellowship afterwards,
uh, or you know, law school,where in between maybe they did
some clerkship, whatever.
And uh they dedicated eight, tenyears to their education, they
(23:51):
ended up in their 30s, and thenthey got to a point they say,
All right, mom, all right, dad,I've done everything you've
wished.
I'm uh I'm a successfulprofessional now, I'd like to
get married.
Well, guess what?
Your parents are now in theirlate 60s or 70s, they're burned
out, and they just don't havethe energy to invest in finding
you a suitable spouse.
So what happens?
You're left to your own devices.
(24:12):
Yeah.
And now you're struggling, andthe apps aren't working, the
matrimonial websites aren'tyielding any success, and you're
coming to matchmakers saying,Can you help me out?
And we're just pretty muchtelling you the same thing.
So, why am I bringing up thiswhole thing?
One of the reasons parents orpeople are putting off children
(24:32):
is because this guilt thatthey've developed from their
parents, right?
Where they had to live up tocertain expectations and now
they feel like subconsciouslygonna pass on that same guilt to
their children.
Could be.
Could be, right?
Yeah, so for the for thesepeople that have developed this
immigrant guilt, uh havingchildren just feels like another
(24:56):
obligation.
There's no joy behind having thechildren, there's no excitement.
SPEAKER_02 (25:01):
Like I spent my life pursuing education, pleasing my
parents.
Now I want to have some time formyself to enjoy life.
I don't want moreresponsibilities and more
burdens.
SPEAKER_01 (25:11):
So be wary of that, I guess is what I could say.
SPEAKER_02 (25:15):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, a lot of people, like,even if they don't have this
issue of like immigrant guiltthing, but they don't want
responsibility.
They want to have a carefreelife, and I get it.
At one point we wanted that,right?
Like we want to travel wheneverwe want, we want to, I don't
know, go out whenever we want.
SPEAKER_01 (25:35):
Yeah, but Islam doesn't teach individualism.
That's that's not our deal.
SPEAKER_02 (25:39):
That's the thing.
But living here in the West,we've adopted our own identity,
I guess, where we get the Islalike the Muslim identity and the
Western um beliefs and values.
SPEAKER_01 (25:51):
Yeah, it does feel like tug of war, right?
One direction you're beingpulled toward this, these
individualistic values, and theother direction it's Muslim
Islamic values that talk moreabout selflessness and giving
back.
Yeah.
And it's kind of hard to formyour own fusion of both.
SPEAKER_02 (26:09):
Yeah, like you feel good.
SPEAKER_01 (26:10):
Like how do you right, like how do you merge
between taking care of yourselfand and your own needs versus
taking care of the needs ofothers?
Yes, right.
SPEAKER_02 (26:20):
But you know, the same argument could be said
about someone who doesn't wantto get married for the fear of
uh responsibility.
Right.
I want to stay single, I want togo out whenever I want, do
whatever I want, uh, eatwhenever I clean whenever I
want.
SPEAKER_01 (26:32):
I hear that from eight, 17, 18-year-olds.
Uh oh yeah, you're a barber.
Yes, my barber, yes, my barberis uh is a young kid.
SPEAKER_02 (26:40):
Early 20.
No, not even 20.
Probably 19, 20.
Something like that.
SPEAKER_01 (26:44):
But is that even young girls like the girls that
I've worked with, right, intheir early 20s.
Well, actually, they're not evenin their early 20s, like 18, 19.
And uh they've kind of adoptedthis mentality too, where and
and large part because ofprobably what they've seen from
their parents, where marriage isall about just taking care of
somebody.
Yeah, chores, it's all aboutchores, and then taking care of
(27:06):
children, taking care of thehusband, making sure that the
husband has food to eat, andthen ironing the husband's
clothes in the morning, and thenwhen he leaves, making sure the
house is clean.
And so this is the I mean, I'm II guess I'm talking more about
marriage than kids, but marriagealso kind of fits into that
picture too, where it's just allabout fulfilling
responsibilities.
SPEAKER_02 (27:26):
And then you look around and see your Western
culture, your non-Muslimfriends, and all of that.
But I feel like for people atthat early age, it's just a
phase they're gonna grow out of.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Hey, if you have a story totell, we'd love to have you on.
Here you'll find a safe space oflisteners who can understand
what you're going through.
Just shoot us an email with asummary of your story at info at
(27:49):
halalmaj.ca.
SPEAKER_01 (27:53):
Naturally, when people say I don't want kids, it
does scream red flag in manycases.
And we do actually warn that toour clients that you know it's
it's totally your decision ifyou don't want children, but
just realize you are limitingyour options also.
SPEAKER_02 (28:08):
They realize that.
They know that.
Because uh, like I said, when Iuh knew that you also are not
interested in children, I feltlike I like I won the lottery
because you were the first manin my life to like the first man
I meet who's not interested inchildren.
SPEAKER_01 (28:24):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (28:24):
And you know, like admitting or saying to someone
you don't want to have childrenjust creates all these like
layers of assumptions around youthat might not be true at all.
Like I said, I was afraid if Iuh say that to a pro a prospect,
they're gonna think that I'm acold uh hearted person because
that you're selfish, you'reinflexible, you're westernized,
(28:46):
you're westernized, that's a bigone.
You're westernized, exactly.
You're not family-oriented.
You're not family.
Are you even a Muslim?
Like I remember my mom kepttrying to guilt me into having
children because she said, Oh,it's haram to not uh to decide
not to have um children, it'sharam to like khat, which is
like um um ending your bloodlineor not allowing the bloodline to
(29:09):
continue, right?
You're doing something haram.
You studied Sharia.
SPEAKER_01 (29:13):
I love when I love when Muslims still run the haram
carving.
It's just oh my god.
SPEAKER_02 (29:17):
I remember at that um MAC Iqna convention in 2019.
Yeah, remember?
Yeah, we asked a question, uh Ithink it was the same uh yes.
Yeah, is it haram to decide notto have children?
Oh yeah, I think you asked thatquestion.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I remember.
And he said, no, but it dependson like the circumstances and
the reasons and all of that,right?
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (29:36):
So And for context, he didn't start throwing around
the haram card, even though he'sa scholar.
SPEAKER_02 (29:40):
So exactly, right?
Yeah.
So a lot of these assumptionsare not true.
Sometimes, like we said, it'sbecause of trauma.
Sometimes it's because of thisgenerational trauma or the awful
childhood you had.
SPEAKER_01 (29:55):
Right.
But at the same time, it doesbeg another question that if you
Say you don't want children, isit are you unintentionally
doubting Allah and and what Hehas planned for you and and uh
not putting enough trust inAllah's plan?
SPEAKER_02 (30:13):
Were we doubting Allah?
SPEAKER_01 (30:16):
I don't know, maybe we were.
SPEAKER_02 (30:18):
I think we were doubting ourselves.
Because like I said, I alwayshad a feeling that I'm not gonna
be a good mom.
SPEAKER_01 (30:25):
Um that So that is uh doubting Allah's plan for you
because part of the journey istrusting that Allah will make
you help you get ready forparenthood, right?
SPEAKER_02 (30:35):
Yeah, they say that no, when you have the child you
will know exactly what to do andthey will change you.
So given that you put in thework, of course.
I wouldn't say doubting Allah,or maybe subconsciously, but
it's just maybe fear of thefuture, fear like not trusting
yourself, not trusting the worldaround you.
I don't know.
It's a it's a complex question,honestly.
SPEAKER_01 (30:56):
Yeah, definitely.
SPEAKER_02 (30:57):
I think a lot of people when they decide to have
children, it's because they wantto leave something behind, a
legacy for uh lack of a betterterm.
But the thing is there are otherways to live legacy.
Like if you are firm about yourdecision not to have children,
there are other ways to livelegacy.
SPEAKER_01 (31:14):
Now it sounds like you're trying to talk people out
of having children.
SPEAKER_02 (31:17):
No, I I want people to be true to who they are.
SPEAKER_01 (31:20):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (31:20):
So if they are firm, they know they have a legitimate
reason not wanting to havechildren.
I mean, at the end of the day,this is a personal choice.
And you shouldn't like justbecause you're being pressured
through whether that's throughfamily or through just because
you want to get married orbecause you're listening to an
episode or something.
You shouldn't change your mindjust because of that.
(31:42):
If you're not really convincedof wanting to have children, if
it's not coming from a realgenuine desire, then that's your
decision, right?
We were there before.
So like who are we to say thatit's no, you must have children?
No.
SPEAKER_01 (31:57):
Ultimately, yeah, you're right.
I mean, you have to want to havechildren.
SPEAKER_02 (32:00):
Exactly.
Without the desire, the realdesire, it's not gonna be
enjoyable, honestly.
But if you are the kind ofperson who decides they don't
want to have children, who knowthey don't want to have
children, then there are otherways to leave legacy behind.
Uh charitable organizations,some people exactly build
orphanages, uh orphanages.
Um, some people heal, somepeople rally behind.
(32:23):
Yeah, like as a doctor, as adoctor, they like people,
doctors who go on doctorswithout borders, doctors who are
putting their lives on the line,going to places like Gaza, for
example.
Yeah, right?
Some people leave a sadahajaria,some people rally behind a
cause, whether that's or a wakf.
(32:44):
Some people dedicate their livesfor a cause, and I really
respect people who do that.
And uh, you might find it silly,but I really respect people who
dedicate their lives to savinganimals in need.
SPEAKER_01 (32:56):
No, it's not silly.
SPEAKER_02 (32:58):
Um, some people write, some people teach.
There are a million ways toleave a legacy.
So don't worry about that.
Not wanting to have childrenmeans that I'm gonna be I'm
gonna die and no one's gonnaknow about me and I'm gonna be
forgotten and I was justburdened on this world.
No, absolutely not.
It's it all comes back tointention.
With the right intention,anything can become uh a legacy.
SPEAKER_01 (33:21):
For sure, for sure.
SPEAKER_02 (33:23):
So for anyone listening who might be
struggling with this matter,questioning their desire for
children, or maybe they knowthey don't want to have
children, what kind of practicaladvice can we give them?
SPEAKER_01 (33:34):
I would say the thoughts and feelings you have
right now may change like it didchange for us.
Um but the important thing is isto dig deeper.
And maybe one of the reasonsyou're not uh wanting or
considering not having childrenis for the reasons that we just
suggested.
(33:55):
Um is it due to financialreasons, um, childhood trauma,
you know, the spiritualresponsibility, whatever the
reason might be.
Understand that Allah has a planfor you, uh, just like He had a
plan for us.
And and you know, there's onething that we didn't mention
actually in this episode that'svery important.
And the reason we're havingchildren today is because of our
(34:18):
parents.
Both our moms would prayconstantly.
I mean constantly for us to havechildren.
I think my mom would be prayingtahjud at times.
She does.
Well, she prays tahjud.
I mean I meant the hajjudspecifically for the purpose of
having children.
So that's what I meant.
She does.
SPEAKER_02 (34:35):
So it went to Umrah and uh made du'a for us and
that's another point.
SPEAKER_01 (34:40):
Don't underestimate the power of du'a, especially
your parents' du'as.
I mean, the fact that I'mmarried and expecting a child is
because of my mother's du'as, socredit goes to her.
But yes, don't underestimate thepower of dua.
Um, don't uh under understandthe reasons why you might be
considering not having children.
(35:00):
And many times, to be quitehonest, they could be trivial
reasons.
They could be.
Yeah, yeah, you know, but takethe time to figure it out.
Take the time.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (35:10):
Allah changes hearts between a heartbeat and the
next, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (35:14):
Yeah.
And if you are, for whateverreason, firm on your decision
not having children, just betrue to that and don't think
that you won't find somebodyjust like you thought you
wouldn't find somebody that alsodoesn't want children.
Don't think that you won't findsomebody who doesn't want
children too.
Yeah.
But actually, it's worthmentioning too.
We have a client who at onepoint said she doesn't want
children, and then afterspeaking to a professional,
(35:36):
contacted her saying, it turnsout that I do want children.
SPEAKER_02 (35:39):
Because apparently she figured out the reason.
She was she didn't want childrenfor the wrong reasons.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (35:45):
So just like you were saying, Allah changes
hearts.
Yeah.
Also, find a support system.
Support systems are very, veryhelpful.
I don't know if there's groups,Facebook groups, WhatsApp
groups.
I would advise to stick withMuslim groups specifically that
share your values.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (36:02):
And uh so we're talking about groups of couples
who don't want to have children.
Right, right.
And I don't know if such groupsexist, but uh maybe, but it's uh
because if you don't, you'regonna find yourself isolated.
Um, all your friends are gonnabe always with their uh kids,
kids' gatherings, your relativeand all relatives and all of
that.
SPEAKER_01 (36:23):
You don't want to have FOMO.
SPEAKER_02 (36:24):
Yeah, not just FOMO, you don't want to feel isolated,
like you don't belong, right?
Yeah.
So find support systems.
SPEAKER_01 (36:30):
And lastly, and this was like we discussed, think
long term, plan for your oldage.
Um, just realize that if you arefirming this decision, you do
run the risk of being alone inyour old age.
SPEAKER_02 (36:43):
Um plan for that financially or having a support
team around you to like care foryou in that age.
SPEAKER_01 (36:52):
But you know, just a question you don't want to be
subject to the government totake care of that.
SPEAKER_02 (36:55):
Oh god, no.
No.
A question that occurred to me.
Yeah.
Two people they meet, they bothdon't want to have children, but
then at one point one of themchanges their mind.
SPEAKER_01 (37:04):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (37:05):
Will the marriage survive?
Will the other uh person have tomake a sacrifice and change his
mind, or the the perf the firstperson has to just swallow their
desire and their ego and justlive with that um with that uh
sadness forever?
SPEAKER_01 (37:21):
Like I mean What flipped the decision?
What's the reason behind the notother person not wanting to have
children?
Can they figure out a way torelieve that concern?
Is it financial, spiritual,social?
Maybe they just don't have asocial system, maybe it's
because they're just so glued totheir careers that they won't be
able to make time for theirchildren.
(37:43):
Um, so is it worth cutting backon that?
It does require lengthydiscussion.
And maybe maybe a third party ora professional getting involved
also to help you dive into thesethings and figure it out.
SPEAKER_02 (37:56):
So, how do you think we would have handled it if one
of us changed their mind and theother didn't?
SPEAKER_01 (38:01):
I don't think either one of us was adamant about
having children.
Because when you brought it up,you were like, So, what do you
think?
You know, like do you want to bealone in your old age?
And you were just like you woulddidn't put your foot down and
say, We have to have children,right?
Like that wasn't ourconversation, it was more of a
suggestion.
And I thought about it and thenwe went back and forth, and it
(38:23):
was kind of an organic journey,right?
There was there was no friction,we never even thought about it.
Like we fight about a millionthings, but not about we didn't
have any fights when it came tothe topic of children.
Yeah, so like alhamdulillah,yeah, it was a blessing.
So it was kind of just Allahopening doors, our parents'
du'as coming to fruition.
Yeah, it brought us to where weare, I guess.
SPEAKER_00 (38:45):
Alhamdulillah.
SPEAKER_01 (38:46):
Alhamdulillah.
So, guys and girls, don't rushthe decision solely to please
others.
Be realistic, okay, about whatcompromises might look like if
you do decide to marry somebodythat does not want children.
SPEAKER_02 (39:03):
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, I think if we decidedto have children before, like
just because of the our parents'pressure, we wouldn't have been
happy.
We wouldn't have enjoyed it.
But when the time was right forus, when Allah put it in our
hearts, two years later ithappened.
SPEAKER_01 (39:20):
Yeah, yeah.
Everything happens for a reason,everything happens when the time
is right.
SPEAKER_02 (39:24):
Yeah.
Um, let us know, guys, yourthoughts on this topic.
I like it's not a topic that'stalked about a lot because, like
we said, it's not a common thingfor couples, especially Muslim
couples, not to want to havechildren.
But if you're single and you aremaybe just debating this
question do I want children?
Don't I want children?
How will it affect my search?
Will I find someone?
(39:45):
Just drop your thoughts in acomment.
We'd love to read.
SPEAKER_01 (39:48):
Yeah, let us know how you're navigating these
thoughts.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (39:50):
And uh until next time.
SPEAKER_00 (39:52):
Salaamu alaykum.
unknown (39:53):
Oh my god.
Assalamu alaikum.
I'm Hiba.
SPEAKER_01 (00:02):
And I'm Zayd.
SPEAKER_02 (00:02):
You're listening to Diary of a Matchmaker.
SPEAKER_01 (00:05):
A podcast that will take you into our world as
matchmakers.
SPEAKER_02 (00:08):
We'll share our experiences and offer advice for
the single Muslim.
SPEAKER_01 (00:12):
So let's dive in.
Bismillah.
Asalaamu alaikum, everyone.
Welcome back to another episode.
SPEAKER_02 (00:21):
As salam alaikum.
SPEAKER_01 (00:22):
Children.
Children is part of theconversations that come up
during the courting phase.
And children were also somethingthat we discussed when we were
going through our courtingphase.
SPEAKER_00 (00:32):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (00:32):
It was actually a big part of our conversation.
But you had your fears bringingit up, and I had my fears.
And for a good reason, though.
Because if you have some sort ofextreme views when it comes to
children, you don't want that tokind of deter the person that
you're talking to.
SPEAKER_00 (00:50):
Correct.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (00:51):
But why don't we start with you?
How what were your thoughts andfeelings around the topic of
children when you were talkingto me?
SPEAKER_02 (00:58):
Okay, so honestly, like growing up, I know you
asked me about when we weretalking, but I'll just tell you
before.
Growing up, like I alwayspictured myself as a mother,
having children, especiallyafter like um seeing my sister
having children, they're so cuteand all of that.
But then I don't know whathappened a few years uh before
we started talking.
I completely changed my mind.
(01:19):
And I knew I didn't want to havechildren.
Or anything.
SPEAKER_01 (01:23):
Honestly, trigger feelings.
SPEAKER_02 (01:25):
I think, like subconsciously, like I mentioned
before, because I knew I wasn'tgonna get married.
Marriage is not something that'swritten for me.
So it kind of like my brain justblocked it, so I don't feel like
I'm missing out on something.
SPEAKER_01 (01:39):
Oh, I see.
SPEAKER_02 (01:40):
I think so.
SPEAKER_01 (01:41):
And uh so there wasn't something you saw or an
experience you were.
SPEAKER_02 (01:45):
It wasn't something, but there were other factors.
SPEAKER_01 (01:47):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (01:47):
Other factors, and um, I can elaborate a little bit
more on.
But when we started talking, Iknew I don't want to have
children, but like you said, Iwas so afraid to bring it up
because I liked you so much.
I liked the connection we had,and um, I can see you like as
someone who might be my husbandin the future, and I was afraid
(02:09):
that if I mention it, this isgonna repel you.
You're gonna think, oh my god,what kind of a woman is this?
Every woman thinks aboutbecoming a mother, what kind of
hard, cold-hearted person thisis, and um and then if I change
my mind, you're gonna think, oh,she's only compromising for me.
No, I want somebody who reallywants to have children.
SPEAKER_00 (02:27):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (02:28):
So I was terrified.
I don't remember how we broughtit up.
SPEAKER_01 (02:32):
I think I was the first one to bring it up.
SPEAKER_02 (02:34):
Oh, really?
SPEAKER_01 (02:35):
If I remember correctly, um, because it just
felt like it was the one thingthat was left to discuss.
We had covered pretty mucheverything at that point except
for kids.
And um, I don't know how or if Ihad a very unique question um to
bring it up, but I finallybrought it up and there was just
I think it was probably on avideo call, there was just this
(02:57):
immense relief that you hadbecause you realized at that
point that you were that youfelt the same way.
Right?
SPEAKER_02 (03:04):
I don't remember honestly, so I'll take your word
for it.
SPEAKER_01 (03:07):
Yeah, so to kind of help the audience out, uh we at
that point when we were talking,we were very averse to the idea
of having children.
SPEAKER_02 (03:17):
I you know, before you go into that, I want to know
your reasons.
SPEAKER_01 (03:21):
I think it was mainly because of the state of
the world.
Uh I I know I kind of find howdo I f I feel a bit pretentious
saying that, but um the worldwas just really I mean it's in I
would say arguably in a it's ina worse place now than when it
was back in 2019.
Of course.
But uh global warming was moreof an issue then in terms of how
(03:44):
frequently it was brought up anddiscussed.
I was just seeing people aroundme burned out, overwhelmed, just
waiting for the weekend.
Oh, and the other reason wasbecause I looked at life as kind
of two things.
Either A you go the traditionalroute, which is a nine to five,
you work, maybe oftentimes it'sit's a job that you hate, and
(04:06):
you just wait for the weekends,or you pursue the more
unconventional route, business,art, things like things that are
are more typically unstable, andyou try to build some sort of
future around that.
But children typically don'tfall into the latter picture,
right?
Yeah, like naturally withchildren you need a stable
(04:29):
environment, you need financialstability, you need to s be able
to spend time with them, right?
And a conventional job allowsfor that, yeah, right?
So I was pursuing art, I waspresuming pursuing a more
unconventional route in life,and I didn't see children
fitting into that picture.
SPEAKER_00 (04:48):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (04:48):
So that's why I said, no, I don't think children
are gonna happen for me becausethis is the kind of life I want
to pursue.
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (04:56):
Yeah.
But you know, being afraid uhlike about the state of the
world, whether it's the climateissues or just the political
scene, the amount of injusticein the world, that was one of my
reasons as well.
And another reason was for somereason I felt that I wasn't
gonna be a good mom.
Like I don't have what it takesto give a baby, to give a child
(05:19):
a good life.
And I'm not talking aboutmaterial stuff.
And I felt honestly, like wementioned on um that episode
with Coach Mesa.
Yeah, a great episode, by theway, guys.
If you're thinking aboutchildren, it's it's a must-watch
or must-listen.
But as I said on that episode,that I feel a lot of people they
shouldn't have children, theyshouldn't be allowed to have
children because I see I seechildren around me being like
(05:42):
ruined, their lives being ruinedbecause of the poor way they
were brought up.
SPEAKER_01 (05:46):
Sounds wrong kind of saying that I don't feel like we
should be saying that becauseAllah is the one that ultimately
decides who should have childrenaround the world.
Of course, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (05:52):
I'm not like uh gonna go and like uh say
something blasphemous.
Of course, of course not, butit's just like infuriating
seeing the way people bring uptheir children, some people.
And another reason was as youknow, because I have a genetic
uh problem.
Right.
And I didn't want to pass that.
SPEAKER_01 (06:10):
Right, right.
But so you had legitimate fears.
Uh so fast forward.
Um, so that was what 20 dishes.
No, no, no.
SPEAKER_02 (06:20):
Before you fast forward, yeah, let's go back to
that conversation.
So to our conversation, how didwe talk about it?
SPEAKER_01 (06:26):
There wasn't much less to talk about.
You just had this immense senseof relief that we were like, oh
my god, I feel the same way.
But the other thing was is thatI remember, so I do remember
this.
We were at the ICNA convention,yeah, and uh Sheikh Yasubirjas
was talking, and it was aparenting conversation,
something something like that.
(06:46):
I remember one thing he saidthat stood out, which is for the
people that are newly married,if if you're not thinking about
children at some point in yourlife, whether you know, four or
five years into your marriage,you're gonna get bored.
Right?
Like the the point was is thatyou're gonna get bored doing the
same thing over and over againfour or five years into your
(07:09):
marriage, and that you're goingto need children to add spice in
your life.
That's pretty much he wassaying.
I know I probably phrased it.
SPEAKER_02 (07:16):
I didn't believe it when I heard that, honestly.
But you remember him sayingthat, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, but uh yes, uh you know, Ifelt like I hit the jackpot.
Is that the right expression?
SPEAKER_00 (07:26):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (07:26):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because like it's very rare, orat least in my life, I've never
met any any man who's notinterested in having children.
Like, even a lot of people, theyjust get married for the purpose
of having children.
My friend, one of my friendstold me the only reason I got
married to my husband is just tohave children.
Yeah.
And when my parents like learnedabout this, my dad couldn't like
(07:48):
comprehend it.
Like, I don't understand.
Like, what do you mean?
You want to get married, but youdon't want to have children.
Like in my culture, at least myparents' generation, it's
unheard of for a couple to likeintentionally decide not to have
children.
But like you said, lo andbehold, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (08:05):
So fast forward.
SPEAKER_02 (08:05):
Fast forward.
SPEAKER_01 (08:06):
Fast forward.
So that was November in December2019.
Then alhamdulillah, we had ourNika, and now here we are 2025,
and uh we're expecting our firstchild.
So this is actually our firsttime revealing it on the
podcast.
SPEAKER_00 (08:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (08:20):
But um, how did we get from there to here is kind
of weird.
SPEAKER_02 (08:27):
Um, quite the journey.
SPEAKER_01 (08:28):
Yeah, yeah.
So before finding out that wewere expecting, we had pretty
much given up the idea of havingchildren.
I'm not gonna go into too muchdetail about you know the things
we did and and how much wetried, but we had just pretty
much come to terms that thatchildren isn't meant for us and
(08:49):
that uh we should just reallyfocus right now on growing our
matchmaking service, growing ourfood business, and for just
pursuing other things,traveling, whatever it might be.
Just uh towards the end of ourvacation, we find out that uh
we're expecting Actually it'sthe first day the same day where
we got back from Colombia.
SPEAKER_02 (09:08):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (09:09):
So we get back from our vacation uh from Colombia
and uh we find out you'repregnant.
SPEAKER_02 (09:14):
Yeah.
How many years in our marriagewent before we decided we want
to have children?
SPEAKER_01 (09:19):
That's a good question.
SPEAKER_02 (09:21):
So I I I think we've been trying for two years,
right?
SPEAKER_01 (09:24):
Yeah.
I think it was you that was rempretty much the driving force
behind that, to be honest.
SPEAKER_02 (09:30):
You know why?
Because I was just thinkingabout the future.
Like I didn't have this stronguh motherly instinct which women
usually have, but I was justthinking about the future.
How is the future gonna look?
Are we gonna regret this in thefuture?
Right.
I remember your old age.
SPEAKER_01 (09:46):
Yeah, I remember you kept saying that you would like
to have somebody in your oldage.
Like God forbid one of us passesaway and there's nobody gonna
that would be around to takecare of us.
SPEAKER_02 (09:55):
But it wasn't about like having children so they can
take care of us, but it's aboutcompanionship.
It's about like I don't know,it's just the f the the future
looked very uh not gloomy, butuh just very scary without
children.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (10:11):
I wouldn't say I think it was mainly so you have
somebody in your old age to bewith you, not necessarily take
care of you because I don'twanna I don't ever want to be a
burden for my children.
Of course not.
But um I would obviously like mychildren to be around and
obviously see them and thingslike that.
So just to have someone aroundin your old age, because you see
(10:32):
old people I mean, like I canthink of one of your customers,
right?
Uh from when we were running ourghost kitchen.
People in their old age thatjust have nobody and they just
wake up with nothing to do,nobody around them, no family,
no children, no grandkids.
And it's it is pretty miserable.
SPEAKER_02 (10:49):
It's a depressing image.
SPEAKER_01 (10:50):
It is, it is.
So we we pivoted.
Um, and it wasn't just like aflip of a switch.
We we talked about it, were-evaluated our circumstances,
and then at the end of the day,I mean the Quran says it
clearly.
Right?
Like, don't kill your childrenout of poverty, like not
(11:12):
literally in that sense, but thepoint is like put your trust in
Allah that we provide for them,we provide for you.
So that Allah is the provider,that your risk comes from Allah.
Obviously, plan and and do yourpart and tie your camel, put
then put your trust in Allah,right?
If I'm understanding that versecorrectly.
SPEAKER_02 (11:32):
Yeah, uh, I was never honestly worried about the
finances because I alwaysbelieve I always believe that
children come with their risk.
But you know what I noticed?
We're not a unique case.
Out of our clients, I can thinkof three people who stated that
they don't want to havechildren.
SPEAKER_01 (11:46):
For sure, yeah.
But still, I would argue thatit's not the the what do you
call the the general consensus.
SPEAKER_00 (11:54):
No, no, no, no.
SPEAKER_01 (11:54):
Right?
There's there is the majority ofpeople do want children,
especially guys.
SPEAKER_00 (11:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (11:59):
The question is, why are people not wanting children?
And people come with a myriad ofdifferent reasons.
SPEAKER_02 (12:05):
Yeah.
But you know, when we startedpreparing for this episode, I
just thought, okay, it's like asimple question.
Yeah, people don't want theirresponsibility.
But after thinking about it anddoing more research, it turns
out there are so many morereasons.
Like it's more nuanced than whatyou would think.
SPEAKER_01 (12:20):
Yeah, yeah.
So the first reason that comesto mind is that people don't
want to recreate the trauma thatthey experience, given obviously
that they had a very traumaticchild childhood.
Yeah.
So some of the reasons or thingsthat people will say on the
registration form is that Idon't want to end up like my
parents.
I don't want to recreate for mychildren the same childhood that
(12:44):
I had.
Yeah.
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (12:46):
And I feel this uh reason we don't talk about it.
And sometimes like the personthey themselves they don't
realize that this is the reason,it's subconscious.
SPEAKER_01 (12:54):
Yeah, and that's unfair because alhamdulillah, we
have so many professionalresources, Muslim professional
resources that can help younavigate that.
So to use that as an excuse isis really kind of a poor way
out, I would say.
(13:23):
Which begs the next question, uhwhich is is there a willingness
to work on yourself or not?
SPEAKER_02 (13:28):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Do you realize you have aproblem?
SPEAKER_01 (13:30):
Do you realize you have a problem?
Are you uh being lazy aboutself-growth and improvement and
self-help?
So this abundance ofprofessional Muslim resources,
Muslim mental health is becomingwidespread and common.
So there's no reason to not seektreatment.
SPEAKER_02 (13:50):
And if you don't work on your trauma, it's not
just gonna stop at I don't wantto have children.
It's gonna like come indifferent different ways and
different shapes throughout yourlife, throughout your
relationships.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (14:01):
So the question to ask yourself is are you making
this decision because yougenerally don't want kids?
Or are you just terrified thatyou'll repeat what happened to
you as a child?
Take scourage.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (14:15):
Another reason is more of a religious reason,
which is like people some peoplefeel like I'm not at the place I
want religiously.
I'm not like I have a long wayto go in uh my relationship with
Allah.
I can bring up another humanbeing to this life, like right.
SPEAKER_01 (14:33):
Or or the fear that you know you're gonna raise a
children that's gonna fall offthe path.
Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_02 (14:39):
And uh I don't have what it takes to bring up uh
righteous children.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (14:43):
So what if they grow up and they don't pray and that
they don't stay on the deen,then you have to answer for
that.
I guess so the people are just Ican't I'm barely taking
responsibility for myself.
How can I take theresponsibility for another
human?
SPEAKER_02 (14:56):
But we're talking specifically about religious
responsibility, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:58):
So the religious obligation of taking care of
myself, right?
We have a religious obligationto ourselves, yeah, and if we
can't keep up or uh maintainthat responsibility, then how
are we gonna fulfill thatresponsibility with another
human?
SPEAKER_02 (15:10):
You know what?
I'd like to see more of thesepeople than seeing people who
just take parenthood as grantedand just like they they don't
invest in their children, andI'm not talking financially, but
they don't give good terbia,they don't care, their kids
pray, they don't pray.
SPEAKER_01 (15:26):
How they just stick them in Sunday school, exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (15:29):
Like I'd like to see be more people who like take
parenthood very seriously, up tothe point that they might
question if they want to havechildren or not, then have more
of those people.
SPEAKER_01 (15:40):
Oh, they take it seriously when it comes to
education though.
Uh what's another point, anotherreason?
SPEAKER_02 (15:48):
I think women or some women are worried about
ending up parenting alone.
Yeah, because let's face it, ourMuslim men aren't taking as much
responsibility as they should interms of parenting.
They see that theirresponsibility ends at just
providing, right?
When it's much more.
(16:11):
But like 90% of the load is onthem.
SPEAKER_01 (16:14):
Yeah, yeah, because at the end of the day they're
modeling after both parents, notjust one parent.
Exactly.
Right?
So if the father's coming homeand he's not praying or he's
still on his phone, then that'sobviously gonna have an effect,
right?
SPEAKER_02 (16:26):
And also like with chores, just taking care of the
children themselves.
Like it's a lot of work.
SPEAKER_01 (16:31):
Well, we don't know that yet.
SPEAKER_02 (16:33):
We see it with like our friends who have children.
Well, I work at a daycarecenter, so yeah, I see it.
Exactly.
And you know what?
Another thing occurred to me.
Some women also might worry thatlook at the percentage of
divorce, look at how many peopleare just leaving their wives,
how many men are leaving theirwives.
I don't want to end up a singleparent.
Like if that situation happenswhere I'm divorced, I don't want
(16:57):
to have the responsibility ofhaving a child.
SPEAKER_01 (17:00):
That's just so silly when I hear it like that.
Because it's like you're goinginto a marriage saying, What if
this?
What if lightning strikes me?
What if like a train hits me?
What if the world ends tomorrow?
What if this?
What if that?
SPEAKER_02 (17:12):
It's like anything can happen.
But for some people, it's moreit's like closer than just
hypothetical.
If they see like failedmarriages in their families and
in their circles, so it's nearerand dearer to their hearts than
just a hypothetical situation.
SPEAKER_01 (17:28):
So to me, the drive would be I'm gonna, I'm not
gonna be another statistic.
I'm gonna do better than thatperson.
I'm gonna do better than myuncle and auntie that got
divorced.
SPEAKER_02 (17:36):
Yeah, but what if you end up like with a guy who
suddenly, you know how youalways say women sometimes just
flip, flip a switch?
SPEAKER_01 (17:43):
Yeah, they yeah, they have a crazy switch.
SPEAKER_02 (17:47):
What if she ends up with a man like this who just
suddenly, I don't know, decides.
SPEAKER_01 (17:51):
What if she gets hit by lightning tomorrow?
SPEAKER_02 (17:53):
No, I'm not justifying it.
I'm not justifying it.
SPEAKER_01 (17:55):
I'm just no, because you're throwing like this
ridiculous what ifs.
SPEAKER_02 (17:58):
I'm saying that some some like what-ifs are more real
for some people than others.
SPEAKER_01 (18:04):
There's no how is a hypothetical divorce more real?
SPEAKER_02 (18:08):
Because I just can't do it.
SPEAKER_01 (18:09):
Just because she's seen it in her family?
Because if it's if it's apattern she grew up with, if
it's she sees miserablemarriages around her, then
that's like saying, Well, I sawuh I know of five family members
that committed suicide, and andI know three people that uh died
by a car accident.
What if that happens in mymarriage?
SPEAKER_00 (18:28):
I don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (18:30):
Like, come on.
It's that's just ridiculous.
No, I can't, I'm not buyingthat.
It's it I think it's a cheap wayout.
Um, but yeah, let's uh shareanother reason.
Um special needs.
Oh, that's that's a scary one.
SPEAKER_02 (18:46):
That's a scary one, especially right now, since we
are expecting.
Yes, yeah.
Yes, it is.
It is it's it's a qadr fromAllah.
You can't yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:55):
Yeah, I mean, there's no way around that.
I mean, it's like the tests ofall tests, I think.
Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (19:01):
Yeah, you know, we have um a girl in our
neighborhood who ended up withher firstborn was like uh
severe, like uh he has a severedisability where he's just
bedridden all day.
Okay.
And it's just like I see how itjust completely changed their
lives.
Like they were a happy couple,and now it's just a full-time
(19:22):
job.
Alhamdulillah, they had healthychildren after him, but it is a
legitimate fear.
And I don't know.
Or maybe it's not a like a hugedisability, but what if we end
up with um I don't know, anautistic child?
Or autism is considered adisability, right?
SPEAKER_01 (19:40):
Yeah, it's yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (19:41):
Okay.
Or I don't know, anything couldhappen.
SPEAKER_01 (19:44):
Um I mean, so there are things to kind of mitigate
that fear, right?
So there is a a test which youcan take, a very expensive test.
So I first and foremost, ourreligion does allow for
abortion.
SPEAKER_02 (19:59):
That's what I was just gonna say.
Like for people who don't careabout half.
Just so for the record.
So for people who don't careabout halal and haram, like uh
it's not gonna be an issue.
Like if they discover at uhmonth five or month six that
there's a disability, then theywould abort, right?
It's just messed up.
It's it's messed up, yeah.
But like Islamically, you haveuntil month number four to
(20:21):
abort, in case not just becauseyou want to, but because there's
a legitimate reason, right?
Right.
And the problem is most uh a lotof these tests uh and a lot of
these conditions, they don'tshow up in the beginning.
Yeah.
So that's a fear.
SPEAKER_01 (20:37):
That's a legitimate, that's more of a legitimate fear
than a hypothetical divorce.
SPEAKER_02 (20:42):
Yeah, I would say subhanAllah, like like you said,
you can't just go with life withwhat if this happens and what if
that, like Right, right.
SPEAKER_01 (20:52):
So I mean at some point, I mean, as the Quran
says, Faida Azam topatawaqalallahu alayhi wa shawl.
Like you make a decision and youput your trust in Allah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:58):
You make dua and you have to waq.
SPEAKER_01 (21:01):
Yeah.
Okay, another reason.
Um, the immigrant parent thatjust guilts you through life.
SPEAKER_02 (21:09):
I feel like you have a lot to say about that.
SPEAKER_01 (21:11):
I do have a lot to say.
I don't know if there's enoughtime for this episode to share.
Oh god.
But what the hell I'll share itanyways.
So it's something I I've sharedthis with you before.
I even shared it with mom once.
I was just thinking a lot theother day about all these girls
that we see that are in theirmid-30s, uh unmarried.
(21:32):
Like we just talked to a girljust last week, and it was the
same s stereotypical situation.
I'm 35, I think she said she was35.
Yeah.
35, uh, I focused on myeducation, and um now I'm a
licensed professional and uh I'mstruggling to find a match.
And what I keep coming back tois the immigrant story.
(21:55):
We've all heard the story,right?
That um parents came, ourimmigrants' parents, uh parents
came in what the 70s, 80s, myparents came in the early 90s uh
to the West.
And some cases parents came withjust five dollars in their
pocket or maybe a couple hundreddollars, and somehow, some way
they made it.
They pursued further education,they built a career for
(22:19):
themselves, they bought a house,and you know, found a way to
settle here in the West.
And essentially, in exchange,what they expected from their
children was to focus on nothingbut education, right?
And they may not articulate itin that way, but the expectation
was that I've sacrificed all ofthese things to build a life for
(22:42):
you guys.
In return, I expect you guys tobecome.
Now, if you're brown, a doctor.
SPEAKER_02 (22:48):
Also, if you're Arab.
SPEAKER_01 (22:49):
Oh, if you're Arab too.
And if not a doctor, okay, maybeI'll settle for a lawyer
engineer.
Right.
And anything short of that, youbetrayed me, you've dishonored
me, you've disgraced me.
Now, obviously, I'm going a biton the extreme here, but you've
got to be.
SPEAKER_02 (23:03):
But you don't appreciate you don't appreciate
all the sacrifices exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (23:07):
Right.
So, and so in many cases, whatyou've seen is one of two
situations.
Um, some children rebelling,going against that, carving
their own path, their own futurefor themselves, and much credit
to them.
But in many cases, um,especially with girls, they've
lived up to that expectation.
And they've focused on nothingbut their education.
(23:28):
They've done everything thattheir parents parents have asked
for um from them, right?
Pursuing an education, going fortheir undergrad for four years,
um, going for medical school foranother four years, residency
for another three, four years,maybe a fellowship afterwards,
uh, or you know, law school,where in between maybe they did
some clerkship, whatever.
And uh they dedicated eight, tenyears to their education, they
(23:51):
ended up in their 30s, and thenthey got to a point they say,
All right, mom, all right, dad,I've done everything you've
wished.
I'm uh I'm a successfulprofessional now, I'd like to
get married.
Well, guess what?
Your parents are now in theirlate 60s or 70s, they're burned
out, and they just don't havethe energy to invest in finding
you a suitable spouse.
So what happens?
You're left to your own devices.
(24:12):
Yeah.
And now you're struggling, andthe apps aren't working, the
matrimonial websites aren'tyielding any success, and you're
coming to matchmakers saying,Can you help me out?
And we're just pretty muchtelling you the same thing.
So, why am I bringing up thiswhole thing?
One of the reasons parents orpeople are putting off children
(24:32):
is because this guilt thatthey've developed from their
parents, right?
Where they had to live up tocertain expectations and now
they feel like subconsciouslygonna pass on that same guilt to
their children.
Could be.
Could be, right?
Yeah, so for the for thesepeople that have developed this
immigrant guilt, uh havingchildren just feels like another
(24:56):
obligation.
There's no joy behind having thechildren, there's no excitement.
SPEAKER_02 (25:01):
Like I spent my life pursuing education, pleasing my
parents.
Now I want to have some time formyself to enjoy life.
I don't want moreresponsibilities and more
burdens.
SPEAKER_01 (25:11):
So be wary of that, I guess is what I could say.
SPEAKER_02 (25:15):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, a lot of people, like,even if they don't have this
issue of like immigrant guiltthing, but they don't want
responsibility.
They want to have a carefreelife, and I get it.
At one point we wanted that,right?
Like we want to travel wheneverwe want, we want to, I don't
know, go out whenever we want.
SPEAKER_01 (25:35):
Yeah, but Islam doesn't teach individualism.
That's that's not our deal.
SPEAKER_02 (25:39):
That's the thing.
But living here in the West,we've adopted our own identity,
I guess, where we get the Islalike the Muslim identity and the
Western um beliefs and values.
SPEAKER_01 (25:51):
Yeah, it does feel like tug of war, right?
One direction you're beingpulled toward this, these
individualistic values, and theother direction it's Muslim
Islamic values that talk moreabout selflessness and giving
back.
Yeah.
And it's kind of hard to formyour own fusion of both.
SPEAKER_02 (26:09):
Yeah, like you feel good.
SPEAKER_01 (26:10):
Like how do you right, like how do you merge
between taking care of yourselfand and your own needs versus
taking care of the needs ofothers?
Yes, right.
SPEAKER_02 (26:20):
But you know, the same argument could be said
about someone who doesn't wantto get married for the fear of
uh responsibility.
Right.
I want to stay single, I want togo out whenever I want, do
whatever I want, uh, eatwhenever I clean whenever I
want.
SPEAKER_01 (26:32):
I hear that from eight, 17, 18-year-olds.
Uh oh yeah, you're a barber.
Yes, my barber, yes, my barberis uh is a young kid.
SPEAKER_02 (26:40):
Early 20.
No, not even 20.
Probably 19, 20.
Something like that.
SPEAKER_01 (26:44):
But is that even young girls like the girls that
I've worked with, right, intheir early 20s.
Well, actually, they're not evenin their early 20s, like 18, 19.
And uh they've kind of adoptedthis mentality too, where and
and large part because ofprobably what they've seen from
their parents, where marriage isall about just taking care of
somebody.
Yeah, chores, it's all aboutchores, and then taking care of
(27:06):
children, taking care of thehusband, making sure that the
husband has food to eat, andthen ironing the husband's
clothes in the morning, and thenwhen he leaves, making sure the
house is clean.
And so this is the I mean, I'm II guess I'm talking more about
marriage than kids, but marriagealso kind of fits into that
picture too, where it's just allabout fulfilling
responsibilities.
SPEAKER_02 (27:26):
And then you look around and see your Western
culture, your non-Muslimfriends, and all of that.
But I feel like for people atthat early age, it's just a
phase they're gonna grow out of.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Hey, if you have a story totell, we'd love to have you on.
Here you'll find a safe space oflisteners who can understand
what you're going through.
Just shoot us an email with asummary of your story at info at
(27:49):
halalmaj.ca.
SPEAKER_01 (27:53):
Naturally, when people say I don't want kids, it
does scream red flag in manycases.
And we do actually warn that toour clients that you know it's
it's totally your decision ifyou don't want children, but
just realize you are limitingyour options also.
SPEAKER_02 (28:08):
They realize that.
They know that.
Because uh, like I said, when Iuh knew that you also are not
interested in children, I feltlike I like I won the lottery
because you were the first manin my life to like the first man
I meet who's not interested inchildren.
SPEAKER_01 (28:24):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (28:24):
And you know, like admitting or saying to someone
you don't want to have childrenjust creates all these like
layers of assumptions around youthat might not be true at all.
Like I said, I was afraid if Iuh say that to a pro a prospect,
they're gonna think that I'm acold uh hearted person because
that you're selfish, you'reinflexible, you're westernized,
(28:46):
you're westernized, that's a bigone.
You're westernized, exactly.
You're not family-oriented.
You're not family.
Are you even a Muslim?
Like I remember my mom kepttrying to guilt me into having
children because she said, Oh,it's haram to not uh to decide
not to have um children, it'sharam to like khat, which is
like um um ending your bloodlineor not allowing the bloodline to
(29:09):
continue, right?
You're doing something haram.
You studied Sharia.
SPEAKER_01 (29:13):
I love when I love when Muslims still run the haram
carving.
It's just oh my god.
SPEAKER_02 (29:17):
I remember at that um MAC Iqna convention in 2019.
Yeah, remember?
Yeah, we asked a question, uh Ithink it was the same uh yes.
Yeah, is it haram to decide notto have children?
Oh yeah, I think you asked thatquestion.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I remember.
And he said, no, but it dependson like the circumstances and
the reasons and all of that,right?
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (29:36):
So And for context, he didn't start throwing around
the haram card, even though he'sa scholar.
SPEAKER_02 (29:40):
So exactly, right?
Yeah.
So a lot of these assumptionsare not true.
Sometimes, like we said, it'sbecause of trauma.
Sometimes it's because of thisgenerational trauma or the awful
childhood you had.
SPEAKER_01 (29:55):
Right.
But at the same time, it doesbeg another question that if you
Say you don't want children, isit are you unintentionally
doubting Allah and and what Hehas planned for you and and uh
not putting enough trust inAllah's plan?
SPEAKER_02 (30:13):
Were we doubting Allah?
SPEAKER_01 (30:16):
I don't know, maybe we were.
SPEAKER_02 (30:18):
I think we were doubting ourselves.
Because like I said, I alwayshad a feeling that I'm not gonna
be a good mom.
SPEAKER_01 (30:25):
Um that So that is uh doubting Allah's plan for you
because part of the journey istrusting that Allah will make
you help you get ready forparenthood, right?
SPEAKER_02 (30:35):
Yeah, they say that no, when you have the child you
will know exactly what to do andthey will change you.
So given that you put in thework, of course.
I wouldn't say doubting Allah,or maybe subconsciously, but
it's just maybe fear of thefuture, fear like not trusting
yourself, not trusting the worldaround you.
I don't know.
It's a it's a complex question,honestly.
SPEAKER_01 (30:56):
Yeah, definitely.
SPEAKER_02 (30:57):
I think a lot of people when they decide to have
children, it's because they wantto leave something behind, a
legacy for uh lack of a betterterm.
But the thing is there are otherways to live legacy.
Like if you are firm about yourdecision not to have children,
there are other ways to livelegacy.
SPEAKER_01 (31:14):
Now it sounds like you're trying to talk people out
of having children.
SPEAKER_02 (31:17):
No, I I want people to be true to who they are.
SPEAKER_01 (31:20):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (31:20):
So if they are firm, they know they have a legitimate
reason not wanting to havechildren.
I mean, at the end of the day,this is a personal choice.
And you shouldn't like justbecause you're being pressured
through whether that's throughfamily or through just because
you want to get married orbecause you're listening to an
episode or something.
You shouldn't change your mindjust because of that.
(31:42):
If you're not really convincedof wanting to have children, if
it's not coming from a realgenuine desire, then that's your
decision, right?
We were there before.
So like who are we to say thatit's no, you must have children?
No.
SPEAKER_01 (31:57):
Ultimately, yeah, you're right.
I mean, you have to want to havechildren.
SPEAKER_02 (32:00):
Exactly.
Without the desire, the realdesire, it's not gonna be
enjoyable, honestly.
But if you are the kind ofperson who decides they don't
want to have children, who knowthey don't want to have
children, then there are otherways to leave legacy behind.
Uh charitable organizations,some people exactly build
orphanages, uh orphanages.
Um, some people heal, somepeople rally behind.
(32:23):
Yeah, like as a doctor, as adoctor, they like people,
doctors who go on doctorswithout borders, doctors who are
putting their lives on the line,going to places like Gaza, for
example.
Yeah, right?
Some people leave a sadahajaria,some people rally behind a
cause, whether that's or a wakf.
(32:44):
Some people dedicate their livesfor a cause, and I really
respect people who do that.
And uh, you might find it silly,but I really respect people who
dedicate their lives to savinganimals in need.
SPEAKER_01 (32:56):
No, it's not silly.
SPEAKER_02 (32:58):
Um, some people write, some people teach.
There are a million ways toleave a legacy.
So don't worry about that.
Not wanting to have childrenmeans that I'm gonna be I'm
gonna die and no one's gonnaknow about me and I'm gonna be
forgotten and I was justburdened on this world.
No, absolutely not.
It's it all comes back tointention.
With the right intention,anything can become uh a legacy.
SPEAKER_01 (33:21):
For sure, for sure.
SPEAKER_02 (33:23):
So for anyone listening who might be
struggling with this matter,questioning their desire for
children, or maybe they knowthey don't want to have
children, what kind of practicaladvice can we give them?
SPEAKER_01 (33:34):
I would say the thoughts and feelings you have
right now may change like it didchange for us.
Um but the important thing is isto dig deeper.
And maybe one of the reasonsyou're not uh wanting or
considering not having childrenis for the reasons that we just
suggested.
(33:55):
Um is it due to financialreasons, um, childhood trauma,
you know, the spiritualresponsibility, whatever the
reason might be.
Understand that Allah has a planfor you, uh, just like He had a
plan for us.
And and you know, there's onething that we didn't mention
actually in this episode that'svery important.
And the reason we're havingchildren today is because of our
(34:18):
parents.
Both our moms would prayconstantly.
I mean constantly for us to havechildren.
I think my mom would be prayingtahjud at times.
She does.
Well, she prays tahjud.
I mean I meant the hajjudspecifically for the purpose of
having children.
So that's what I meant.
She does.
SPEAKER_02 (34:35):
So it went to Umrah and uh made du'a for us and
that's another point.
SPEAKER_01 (34:40):
Don't underestimate the power of du'a, especially
your parents' du'as.
I mean, the fact that I'mmarried and expecting a child is
because of my mother's du'as, socredit goes to her.
But yes, don't underestimate thepower of dua.
Um, don't uh under understandthe reasons why you might be
considering not having children.
(35:00):
And many times, to be quitehonest, they could be trivial
reasons.
They could be.
Yeah, yeah, you know, but takethe time to figure it out.
Take the time.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (35:10):
Allah changes hearts between a heartbeat and the
next, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (35:14):
Yeah.
And if you are, for whateverreason, firm on your decision
not having children, just betrue to that and don't think
that you won't find somebodyjust like you thought you
wouldn't find somebody that alsodoesn't want children.
Don't think that you won't findsomebody who doesn't want
children too.
Yeah.
But actually, it's worthmentioning too.
We have a client who at onepoint said she doesn't want
children, and then afterspeaking to a professional,
(35:36):
contacted her saying, it turnsout that I do want children.
SPEAKER_02 (35:39):
Because apparently she figured out the reason.
She was she didn't want childrenfor the wrong reasons.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (35:45):
So just like you were saying, Allah changes
hearts.
Yeah.
Also, find a support system.
Support systems are very, veryhelpful.
I don't know if there's groups,Facebook groups, WhatsApp
groups.
I would advise to stick withMuslim groups specifically that
share your values.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (36:02):
And uh so we're talking about groups of couples
who don't want to have children.
Right, right.
And I don't know if such groupsexist, but uh maybe, but it's uh
because if you don't, you'regonna find yourself isolated.
Um, all your friends are gonnabe always with their uh kids,
kids' gatherings, your relativeand all relatives and all of
that.
SPEAKER_01 (36:23):
You don't want to have FOMO.
SPEAKER_02 (36:24):
Yeah, not just FOMO, you don't want to feel isolated,
like you don't belong, right?
Yeah.
So find support systems.
SPEAKER_01 (36:30):
And lastly, and this was like we discussed, think
long term, plan for your oldage.
Um, just realize that if you arefirming this decision, you do
run the risk of being alone inyour old age.
SPEAKER_02 (36:43):
Um plan for that financially or having a support
team around you to like care foryou in that age.
SPEAKER_01 (36:52):
But you know, just a question you don't want to be
subject to the government totake care of that.
SPEAKER_02 (36:55):
Oh god, no.
No.
A question that occurred to me.
Yeah.
Two people they meet, they bothdon't want to have children, but
then at one point one of themchanges their mind.
SPEAKER_01 (37:04):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (37:05):
Will the marriage survive?
Will the other uh person have tomake a sacrifice and change his
mind, or the the perf the firstperson has to just swallow their
desire and their ego and justlive with that um with that uh
sadness forever?
SPEAKER_01 (37:21):
Like I mean What flipped the decision?
What's the reason behind the notother person not wanting to have
children?
Can they figure out a way torelieve that concern?
Is it financial, spiritual,social?
Maybe they just don't have asocial system, maybe it's
because they're just so glued totheir careers that they won't be
able to make time for theirchildren.
(37:43):
Um, so is it worth cutting backon that?
It does require lengthydiscussion.
And maybe maybe a third party ora professional getting involved
also to help you dive into thesethings and figure it out.
SPEAKER_02 (37:56):
So, how do you think we would have handled it if one
of us changed their mind and theother didn't?
SPEAKER_01 (38:01):
I don't think either one of us was adamant about
having children.
Because when you brought it up,you were like, So, what do you
think?
You know, like do you want to bealone in your old age?
And you were just like you woulddidn't put your foot down and
say, We have to have children,right?
Like that wasn't ourconversation, it was more of a
suggestion.
And I thought about it and thenwe went back and forth, and it
(38:23):
was kind of an organic journey,right?
There was there was no friction,we never even thought about it.
Like we fight about a millionthings, but not about we didn't
have any fights when it came tothe topic of children.
Yeah, so like alhamdulillah,yeah, it was a blessing.
So it was kind of just Allahopening doors, our parents'
du'as coming to fruition.
Yeah, it brought us to where weare, I guess.
SPEAKER_00 (38:45):
Alhamdulillah.
SPEAKER_01 (38:46):
Alhamdulillah.
So, guys and girls, don't rushthe decision solely to please
others.
Be realistic, okay, about whatcompromises might look like if
you do decide to marry somebodythat does not want children.
SPEAKER_02 (39:03):
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, I think if we decidedto have children before, like
just because of the our parents'pressure, we wouldn't have been
happy.
We wouldn't have enjoyed it.
But when the time was right forus, when Allah put it in our
hearts, two years later ithappened.
SPEAKER_01 (39:20):
Yeah, yeah.
Everything happens for a reason,everything happens when the time
is right.
SPEAKER_02 (39:24):
Yeah.
Um, let us know, guys, yourthoughts on this topic.
I like it's not a topic that'stalked about a lot because, like
we said, it's not a common thingfor couples, especially Muslim
couples, not to want to havechildren.
But if you're single and you aremaybe just debating this
question do I want children?
Don't I want children?
How will it affect my search?
Will I find someone?
(39:45):
Just drop your thoughts in acomment.
We'd love to read.
SPEAKER_01 (39:48):
Yeah, let us know how you're navigating these
thoughts.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (39:50):
And uh until next time.
SPEAKER_00 (39:52):
Salaamu alaykum.
unknown (39:53):
Oh my god.
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