February 21, 2025 • 54 mins
Starting over after a breakup or divorce? We know it’s not easy, but you’re not alone. In this episode, we sit down with therapist Sarah Sultan to talk about what it really takes to heal, grow, and move forward with confidence.
We discuss how to recognize red flags you might have missed the first time around and how to rebuild your self-worth so you’re not carrying past baggage into something new. We also cover the importance of finding clarity on what you need in a spouse, and why you should focus on becoming whole before looking for someone to complete you. If you’re ready to stop feeling stuck and start seeing this as a fresh beginning, this episode is for you.
Follow Sarah on Instagram, or email her directly at: therapy@sarahsultan.com
Got a dilemma or story? The Single Muslim Hotline is here for you! We’ll play your anonymous messages in future episodes and offer real talk. Drop us a voice note 👇🏻
https://www.speakpipe.com/DiaryOfAMatchmaker
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Everybody has their own version of reality.
That is their truth, that'swhat they believe to be true.
But unless you can really startto think about what role did I
play, unless there's that senseof muhasabah right, that
self-accountability that we areencouraged to engage in
Islamically, then how are yougoing to learn and grow and how
are those patterns not gonnarepeat?
(00:20):
You're gonna fall right intothe same steps of that dance but
just with a different person.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Assalamu alaikum, I'm hiba and I'm zaid.
You're listening to diary of amatchmaker, a podcast that will
take you into our world asmatchmakers we'll share our
experiences and offer advice forthe single muslim so let's dive
in, all right.
(00:55):
All right, so welcome to anotherepisode.
Everyone, my name is Zaid andthis is my wife, Hiba, and we
are honored today to have aspecial guest, Sister Sara
Sultan.
She is a licensed professionalcounselor who works to help her
clients live more fulfillinglives by reconnecting with Allah
.
Sara has a master's degree inmental health counseling and has
(01:18):
practiced therapy for over 10years.
She is an instructor withMishka University and Al-Maghrib
Institute, where she teachescourses about the intersection
between Islam, psychology andcounseling, and is also a
research fellow at YaqeenInstitute for Islamic Research.
So thank you for coming onboard.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
We're excited to have you.
Thank you so much.
We have a lot in store for you.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
So, as you already know, getting married is not
easy, whether you're divorced,whether you're widowed.
Your engagement just broke off.
You could have been in thecourting phase for maybe six
months and then, for some reason, it broke off.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
So, in your opinion, what is harder starting or
starting over?
I think that's a great question.
I think that both take acertain amount of courage.
But I think when you're firststarting the marriage process
there's naturally a little bitof trepidation that comes with
it, but there's also a lot ofexcitement in the hopes of
meeting someone that you'regoing to spend your life with.
(02:31):
But I think, starting over, alot of times the fear outweighs
the excitement, because you knowhow much is at stake, you know
how much can go wrong, you knowhow heartbroken you can become,
you know how much pain you canendure in that process.
And so the amount of bravery orcourage that it takes to jump
(02:52):
back in after a difficultrelationship, I think is a lot
more than when you're just firststarting out.
It's just like you know.
It's just like any.
You know any situation.
When you're first going to getyour license to drive a car,
you're excited, you're lookingforward to it and everything.
But after that first accident,right after that first fender
(03:13):
bender or whatever it is, thenthe fear of getting behind the
wheel.
It takes a lot of extra courageand bravery to be able to do
that.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Yeah, and that fear often becomes a hindrance right
In starting over.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
It can.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
It can, yeah.
So what are some of thestruggles you're seeing in your
line of work with peoplestarting over, especially maybe
after divorce?
Speaker 1 (03:39):
You know, I think that naturally, that fear that
fear is can be both a pro and acon right.
The fear can propel like, canactually propel you to learn
more about yourself, towardsself-discovery, toward growth
and toward thriving.
I actually find that a lot ofpeople who have been through
difficulties in pastrelationships, a divorce
(04:00):
situation they tend to be moreself-aware about what they're
bringing to the table in amarriage than a lot of first
timers tend to have.
And there's also this need andthis want to be able to grow and
to understand what happened.
What can I learn from thatsituation so that I don't repeat
(04:20):
the same mistakes going intothis relationship, so that also,
maybe the person I choose hasdifferent qualities than the
person I didn't get along within my past relationship.
So that fear can actuallypropel a person toward growth,
which is beautiful.
But then, on the opposite sideof things, that fear can also
hold a person back, because nowit's this fear of okay, how am I
(04:43):
going to trust somebody again?
How am I going to be able toput myself out there again and
risk my heart again, put in andinvest so much effort into a
relationship and into a personafter I've been burned so badly
in the past.
And so there it's.
A it's a.
It's a double-edged sword.
It can, there's a pro to it,but then there can also be cons.
(05:04):
A it's a double-edged sword itcan.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
There's a pro to it, but then there can also be cons.
Okay, so, as matchmakers, a lotof times we get uh calls and um
like interest from people whoare divorced but they want to
start over, and we always ask uh, what lessons do you take from
your previous relationship?
What were the circumstancesbehind the divorce?
And a lot of times not all thetimes, but a lot of times what
(05:27):
we hear is it was the otherperson's problem, they were this
, they were that.
Now, of course, we all think weare right.
Right, and that's why we do thethings we do, because we think
we're right.
But when starting over, how cansomebody decide if it was their
fault and things they need towork on, or if it was the other
person's fault and theyshouldn't like blame themselves?
Speaker 1 (05:52):
You know, one of the things that I often advise my
clients who are getting to knowsomebody for the purposes of
marriage, and if they're gettingto know somebody if they
themselves have been through adivorce, obviously that's
something that we are workingthrough and talking through.
But if they're getting to knowsomebody if they themselves have
been through a divorce,obviously that's something that
we are working through andtalking through.
But if they're also getting toknow somebody for marriage who
has been through a divorce, oneof the questions I always ask
(06:13):
them is, when you ask them aboutthe divorce, when you ask them
about the marriage, what's theirresponse?
And if their response is he, he, he or she, she, she and it was
all that, it was all about whatthe other person did, I'm sorry
, they're not ready, like that'salways my impression.
They're not ready Because,unless you're going to be
(06:39):
self-reflective, the pattern isjust going to repeat itself.
It takes two people to tango.
There's actually a metaphor inmarriage counseling that
marriage is like a dance, and aslong as both spouses do the
same steps for this dance, thedance always stays the same
until someone is self-awareenough to break away and change
the steps of the dance.
Then the dance changes and so,after a marriage ends, you have
(07:00):
to reflect on what steps was Itaking to contribute to this
dance?
It's a two-way street, it's not.
Yes, sometimes there's somebodywho is more accountable, sure,
you know, especially obviouslyin cases of abuse and things
like that, it's a differentsituation.
I'm not talking about cases ofabuse, I'm talking about typical
falling out that happens inmarriages.
(07:22):
But unless you're willing toacknowledge the role that you
play everybody has their ownversion of reality, and
everybody's.
That is their truth, that'swhat they believe to be true.
But unless you can really startto think about okay, what role
did I play?
Unless there's that sense ofmuhasabah right, that
self-accountability that we areencouraged to engage in
(07:45):
Islamically, then how are yougoing to learn and grow and how
are those patterns not going torepeat?
You're going to fall right intothe same steps of that dance,
but just with a different person.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
As a brother.
If I'm speaking to somebody forthe purpose of marriage and I
discover that this sister hadbeen through a divorce, what
signs would indicate to me thatshe's truly ready to move on
emotionally?
What practical steps can I taketo assess that and just make a
(08:16):
decision for myself?
Speaker 2 (08:19):
And same thing if it was the other way around.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
Yeah, yeah for both, because the signs are the same
for for both men and women, andso the biggest thing that I
would look for is, um,self-awareness.
I would also look for um,emotional healing, right.
So for self-awareness thatwould look like, okay, uh, you
(08:43):
talk about the divorce andthey're able to acknowledge,
like, here are some of thethings that happened, here are
the ways that I've grown throughit, here are the ways that I've
worked on myself so that I amready to go into another
relationship, and here are theworries I have about what I
might be bringing into thismarriage because of my past
(09:04):
experiences.
That I'm working one of themain things in.
I think in anything, whetherit's divorce, whether it's any
type of difficult experience,any type of traumatic experience
that a person has gone throughit's awareness of I am working
on differentiating whether myreaction right now is because of
(09:25):
the issue I'm facing right nowor if it's a reaction to
something I faced in the past.
Right.
So, understanding what are mytriggers, what are the things
that are hard for me to dealwith Because they trigger a past
experience, and I am working onbeing aware of that so that I
don't necessarily overreact insomething that might be a small
(09:46):
situation, but it feels biggerbecause of my past experiences.
So that's part of selfawareness, right?
Emotional healing is also a partof that right when it's okay, I
can identify that.
These are the experiences Iwent through and here's how they
made me feel and here's how I'mworking through that, so
(10:11):
understanding that this was theplan of Allah, and I'm really
working on trusting Allah has abetter plan for me, that he's
the best of planners.
So emotional and spiritualhealing because a lot of times,
going through a difficultexperience also requires
spiritual healing how am I usingthis to view this as a test
from Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala,as that this was not a failure,
(10:32):
but this was a stepping stonetoward my future?
And how am I using this to getcloser to Allah subhanahu wa
ta'ala?
Because that's the goal of anytest, right?
Some of those are just a coupleof the things that that I would
uh, I would look for.
Also.
Some of the more clear-cutthings is is there anything
that's off the table of thingsthat they want to discuss?
(10:53):
Are they being very secretive?
Are they being?
Are they being avoidant ofcertain questions?
That to me, would indicate thatthey're not ready, like there's
still a lot that's happeninginternally that they're not
willing to touch, but it's goingto show up later.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Do you think that a lot of people do all these steps
and reflect and do selfaccountability or cause?
It sounds so beautiful and soideal, but in our culture do we
really do that?
Speaker 1 (11:25):
I think, generationally.
Now there is a lot more of that.
I will say I think it's amongstMuslim women more than amongst
Muslim men, but there are a lotof Muslim men who are, you know,
really like there are moreMuslim male counselors now,
mashallah.
So there's especially with theintertwining of faith with
mental health.
(11:46):
I think that has allowed thecommunity to feel a little bit
more comfortable with some ofthese efforts, because there's
more of an awareness.
Before, the idea ofself-reflection, of going into
therapy, was really scarybecause it's like what are they
going to do, to my mind, how arethey going to mess me up, right
?
Really scary because it's likewhat are they going to do, to my
mind, how are they going tomess me up, right?
(12:06):
But now that people areeducating themselves a little
bit more about how Islam andmental health are intertwined, I
think it gives people a littlebit more of an avenue to be able
to do that.
Regardless of that, though, Ithink that this is hard work.
This is very hard to do.
It is a lot easier to just getmarried again right Than to do
(12:28):
the work of actually healingbefore getting married again.
It is very hard work and a lotof times, immediately after a
divorce, what feels better isokay, I'm just going to find
another partner.
I'm going to find somebody elsewho's going to see the good in
me and I'm going to prove thatthat person.
The problem was my ex-spouse,right, and that's what feels
(12:49):
good in the moment.
Unless they give themselves alittle bit of time to realize
that's not what I need right now.
But it is hard work, so a lotof people are not really willing
to do it.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
I thought so.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
There's also that struggle of finding that balance
between faith and action, whereyou understand that so much of
what has happened in yournegative experience was part of
a lost plan and it was a test.
But also there was somewrongdoing on your part, or the
spouse's part in the case oftrauma, or abuse, your part or
(13:27):
the spouse's part in the case oftrauma or abuse.
So there's always that strugglebetween finding the balance and
understanding.
Okay, was this a test?
Did I do something wrong?
How do I wrap my head aroundthis right?
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Yeah, absolutely Absolutely, and I think that
it's always good to start from aplace of acknowledging that yes
, I did do something wrong,unless, as we said, abuse let's
take that off the table, right.
But yes, I did do somethingwrong and the other person did
something wrong too, that it'sgoing to be both.
(13:57):
But I can't change the otherperson, even if I'm still
married to that person.
I can't change them.
I can only change myself.
I can only put the effort intotransforming the way I show up
in relationships, and one of theways action-wise I think that's
a really good point,action-wise to consider.
(14:17):
That is what about in otherrelationships.
Marriage is a very uniquerelationship.
But what about in otherrelationships in your life?
How are you showing up withfriends?
How are you showing up withyour parents?
How are you showing up withyour siblings, with other family
members, right?
How are you showing up withyour coworkers at work?
Are there personality traits?
Are there things that you tendto do that make it difficult to
(14:39):
be in any relationship with you?
Right, and we all have ourquirks, we all have our personal
struggles, and if you viewyourself as like well, no,
everybody loves me, I'm perfect,there's nothing wrong with me,
then you know, a little moreself-reflection would be really
beneficial there, right?
Because everybody has thingsthat get on other people's
(15:02):
nerves and if you have reallystrong relationships with family
and friends and things likethat, you can ask them.
You can ask them, like, ifthere's one goal and one area
that you would love to see megrow in, what would that area be
?
Would it be that you go fromzero to 60 really quickly and
you react very stronglyemotionally, very quickly?
(15:23):
Is it that when things get hard,you try to escape because it's
just really difficult to handleit and so you're
non-confrontational, you don'twant to resolve the conflict,
right?
What are the things that mightbe difficult for you to bring
into a relationship if you wantit to be healthy?
And so, asking people aboutthat, self-reflecting on, okay,
(15:44):
what are the typical arguments?
If I look back on the years offriendships, family
relationships, marriage,whatever it is, what are the
typical things when I look backon that tended to get between me
and another person and see ifyou can figure out a pattern
that can be really, reallyhelpful, and see if you can
figure out a pattern that can bereally, really helpful.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Okay, speaking of getting on other person's nerves
, you know, just like you said,marriage is such a unique
relationship.
Before we got married, I neverknew I could get on someone's
nerves.
I've never had this problem,but then I learned something new
about myself, thanks to you,zaid.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Speaking of self-reflection, how can
somebody do the self-reflectionand the self-accountability,
find that balance between doingthat and not getting stuck in a
cycle of self-blame and maybeself-hatred?
Speaker 1 (16:49):
You know, your first comment about, like, how
marriage is such a uniquerelationship, it's so true,
right, because the Prophet saysthat marriage is half your deen,
right, and so once you getmarried, then guard the other
half of your faith.
And you know when, before youget married, you hear that
hadith and it's like, it's likethis motivation of, okay, I want
to fulfill half my deen, I wantto, you know, get married and
(17:15):
everything, but once you'remarried, you realize that it's
because it's hard, that it'shalf your faith.
This is not, this is not goingto be something that's easy and
something that's so powerful.
I was reflecting on this hadithand I was thinking, like you,
our faith, our faith journey, isa relationship between us and
Allah, but also part of ourfaith is our relationship with
(17:35):
Allah's creation, and there'snobody who we're like in their
face and you know, constantlywith as much as our spouse,
right, and so, giving our spousetheir rights and treating
Allah's creation well, it makessense that marriage is going to
be half your deed, because it'sa big test, right, it's a
blessing, but it's a test, youknow.
(17:56):
And so so, yeah, you know itbrings and it brings up a lot of
growth, right, where yourealize.
Oh, I never knew that thiscould be annoying to somebody
right, absolutely, absolutely,100%, yeah, absolutely.
And so then you said the otherquestion was about how to
balance between self-reflectionand self-blame, right?
So the difference betweenhealthy guilt and unhealthy
(18:21):
guilt, self-accountability andself-blame or harming yourself
in that process, is what you dowith it.
So healthy guilt should propelus toward growth and should
propel us toward Allah,subhanahu wa ta'ala, right?
So, for example, that wouldlook like okay, I'm reflecting
back on my past marriagerelationship, whatever, or this
(18:43):
argument that I had with afriend or a family member, and I
acknowledge that I reallydidn't communicate the way that
I ideally would have, that maybeI got overly emotional, maybe I
interpreted what they said in anegative way and I should have
given them benefit of the doubt.
I acknowledge that I didn't dothat, and next time I'm going to
(19:05):
try to improve on that.
I'm going to go in knowing thattheir intention is good.
I'm going to go in trying tobreathe through it so that I
don't react emotionally, andright now I'm going to apologize
to them for my shortcoming inthat situation.
That's healthy guilt.
It propels you toward growthand change, and it also propels
you toward doing somethingthat's pleasing to Allah.
Unhealthy guilt is like, andthat self-blame idea is I'm just
(19:30):
unworthy of love, that I cannever do anything right, and
sometimes people will bring thisinto arguments in marriage
where, okay, it's clear, I'mjust the bad person here, I
can't do anything right, and youknow, and they bring that in to
shut down the conversation.
That's not right, where youjust make it about yourself and
you make it like, oh, I am justnot a good person, I am a bad
(19:50):
person and I'm hopeless.
Okay, well then, what hope doyou have for growth in that case
?
So that's the differencebetween reflecting on something
to allow yourself to grow andblaming yourself so that you
actually just stay the same ormove backward.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Interesting, yeah, especially what you just said
about I'm a bad person.
It's like what is it?
Reverse psychology, or whatexactly is it?
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Yeah, it's kind of like.
It's like I'm saying all thebad things already.
You can't hurt me anymore, youknow like okay, fine, I'm just
going to shut down theconversation.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
It's a way of avoiding the conversation and a
way of shutting it down, theconversation and a way of
shutting it down, and then theother person starts feeling
guilty and, like you, forgetwhat you were talking about in
the beginning and now you'rebusy trying to feel.
Try to make them feel rightabout themselves, right yeah?
Speaker 1 (20:40):
you end up trying to reassure them, and the issue
with that is that a lot of timesthis comes up in situations
where one spouse has a concern,right, so they bring it up and
they'll say something like youknow, it was really frustrating
when I, you know, realized thatyou didn't do such and such, or
you know you did such and such,or whatever it is.
(21:01):
They're trying to say like,okay, I felt such and such way
about that, and then the persondoesn't know how to deal with
that.
They feel really like angryabout it, or they feel
frustrated, or they feel badlywithin themselves, and so,
instead of acknowledging themistake that they made and how
they're going to work on it,instead it's okay, I'm always
wrong, I'm always a bad personand all that stuff, and so now
(21:23):
there's no space for the otherperson's concern.
Now they have to reassure theirspouse when meanwhile they were
the one who had a concern tocome up with first.
So it's one of the ways of kindof avoiding the argument.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
Mm-hmm.
Well, would that also beconsidered a form of gaslighting
too?
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Yeah, people would kind of use that term.
Well, gaslighting would be morelike making them think that I
guess it could be, because it iskind of making them think that
whatever they're saying is notreasonable.
Right.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
And it's the other person's fault, not mine, yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
So it's kind of a way of gaslighting yeah, I don't
use the terminology too often, Ithink that it's just one of my.
It's one of my things.
I just feel like people, peopleuse terms and they become
really popular after a while andthen everything becomes
narcissism and gaslighting andall this stuff.
Absolutely.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Um, so do you have like stories to share where, uh,
somebody, where somebodystarted doing self-reflection?
Or like no, let me rephrase Doyou have stories where someone,
after a failed relationship,were able to grow and learn
something new about themselvesand become such a better version
(22:47):
of themselves?
Speaker 1 (22:49):
Oh yeah, absolutely, Absolutely.
I see it.
I see it all the time in my, infriendships, I see it all the
time in in therapy, with myclients.
You know, especially people whocome into therapy.
They are primed for that rightLike this is what they want.
They want to be able to heal.
So I'm trying to think of even aspecific example, so someone,
(23:15):
someone that I know, you know,whenever I think of, like
divorce in I mean, there's somany examples actually really
hard.
Okay, I'll combine, but like Ithink of the experiences that
I've had, most of them withwomen, because I tend to work
with women and then all myfriends are women as well.
Right, so I will say that,although there are a lot of
(23:35):
brothers who also have this aswell, mashallah.
But like I thinking of oneperson, in one person in
particular, where, after herdivorce, she actually started a
she, she was part of a Christiansupport group for divorcees and
then she brought it to theMuslim community and she
transformed it so that in like,in the community, we actually
(23:58):
have a support group for Muslimswho have been through a divorce
and she helped to create thecurriculum, run the groups, all
of these different things.
So she used her difficultexperience to propel her toward
helping others through that sameexperience, mashallah.
I have another person that Iknow who just seeing you know
she and her husband.
(24:19):
They got a divorce and her exand then, and seeing her grow
and seeing her deal with it andthe challenges of being a single
mother so gracefully,SubhanAllah, and seeing her
thrive.
She wrote a book, shecontributed to another book.
She has enhanced her personalhobbies in ways that really
(24:43):
allowed her to grow in suchbeautiful ways and to model that
for her children.
The ways that she's invested inher friendships and her social
relationships, the way that shewent for another degree and
progressed at work, isconstantly going to Islamic
classes and learning about Islamas a way to get closer to Allah
in this process.
(25:03):
I mean, I can't even like keepgoing with the list, right, like
so.
So I think you know there's aterm in trauma therapy that that
when somebody goes through atraumatic experience and they
come out better on the otherside.
It's called post traumaticgrowth and people often think
(25:26):
that post traumatic growth isvery unique, like there are very
few people.
But the research has shown thatover 50% of people who go
through a traumatic experienceactually come out better on the
other side and I find that veryhopeful because a lot of times
people feel like I'm in such adark place in my life.
How can I ever get past this?
First of all, survive this, butget better through it.
(25:47):
People can't imagine it, but itis actually something that's
feasible and we see it in everyday in our lives, witnessing
people.
People grow and become betterversions of themselves.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
This is such a great to hear.
Honestly, we've never heardthis expression.
And 50%, that's an amazingpercentage.
There is hope, I guess.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
That's interesting.
Post-traumatic growth that's aninteresting term.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Hey, if you have a story to tell, we'd love to have
you on here.
You'll find a safe space oflisteners who can understand
what you're going through.
Just shoot us an email with asummary of your story at info at
halalmatchca.
Do you deal in your line ofwork with widows and widowers?
I do, okay.
(26:34):
So how is it different startingover after losing a spouse?
How is it different fromstarting after?
Speaker 1 (26:42):
divorce.
With divorce there's a lot oftypically very charged, angry,
negative emotion surrounding therelationship, right.
So you look back on themarriage and it's very difficult
to see the good types right,and to see what got you into
(27:04):
that relationship to begin withand everything.
And so trust can be verydifficult to rebuild after a
divorce With a situation whereyou're grieving the death of a
spouse.
It's very, very unique.
It's not like the death ofanybody else in your family.
It's not like the death of aparent, even the death of a
(27:25):
child, right, it changes everysingle aspect of your daily life
and a lot of times one of themost difficult things about
grief after the death of aspouse is that you can only
remember the good.
You only remember the goodthings and you only remember now
the fact that you don't haveany of those good things.
(27:46):
And one of the parts of actuallygoing through the grief process
is when you can acknowledgesome of the difficulties that
were a part of your marriage too, to see that person again as a
human, to see that person as notperfect, and so that helps you
to be able to kind of come toterms with it.
(28:06):
And then also, I think that,avoiding memories.
In the beginning it tends to besomething that a lot of people
struggle with or only living inthe memories and only living in
the memories and only living inthe past.
People have two differentapproaches well, multiple, not
just two, but these are some ofthe common ones that I see.
Different approaches to grief isavoidance of the memories or
(28:28):
only living in the past and inthose memories and really having
difficulty staying present inthe present and looking to the
future.
So, with grief, being able toexplore another relationship,
that after a divorce, there'snot guilt in exploring a new
relationship.
There might be fear,trepidation, trust issues and
(28:50):
things like that, but there'susually not guilt.
But after the death of a spousethere's a lot of guilt because
it makes you feel as though doesthis mean that I no longer miss
this person, that I no longerlove this person, that they were
not really as big of a part ofmy life?
I have to remind myself how bigof a part of my life they were,
(29:11):
and if I move on or moveforward and explore a new
marriage, then am I just leavingthem behind, and so that makes
it a very unique challenge.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
Yeah, going back to what you just said before about
humanizing the deceased spouse,I would imagine that person
trying to start over and getremarried is probably thinking
okay, this next person has tofill the shoes of my previous
spouse, my spouse was thiswonderful person and now, all of
(29:42):
a sudden, maybe they're settingunrealistic expectations of a
new spouse.
Do you see that happening andwhat would you say about that?
Speaker 1 (29:52):
Yeah, absolutely, and that's why a part of the grief
process is going to be to beable to humanize their spouse,
because you can't go into a newrelationship with this idolized
version of what a spouse shouldbe like when, realistically,
even that spouse wasn'tfulfilling that right.
And so part of that process ofknowing that you're ready to
(30:15):
look into another marriage iswhen you're able to acknowledge
some of the problems that youhad in your marriage, some of
the negative times, some of thequalities that you may not have
loved about your spouse, as wellas the qualities that made you
really love them and reallyenjoy your marriage with them.
You have a very uniqueexperience in that, because you
(30:36):
actually have a relationshipthat you felt like was
successful.
But the key is to make surethat you also realize the parts
of it that weren't perfect,because it's already going to be
very difficult if you'reviewing your next marriage as,
like this person has to measureup to my first spouse.
Realize that you are different,so you might need something
(30:59):
different at this stage of yourlife too.
So the idea of holding a newperson to that standard, that
might not be, that's notfeasible number one, and that
might not be what you need atthis point in your life either.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Well, you know, this reminds me of a hadith that came
to my mind while you weretalking, where Aisha radiallahu
anha, one day she got upsetbecause the Prophet alayhi salam
used to compliment Khadijaradiallahu anha and she's like
didn't Allah replace you withsomeone better?
And he started counting her,like complimenting her and
(31:37):
counting her.
What made her special?
So, um, I think I lost thepoint I was going with, honestly
.
But, yeah, yeah, the measuringup, like, um, nobody measured up
, uh, for khadijah, right withthe prophet, yet he was able to
move on on and get again andagain, and again.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
That's a good point.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Yeah, absolutely, and you know, that's the thing is,
everybody has unique qualitiesand they bring unique attributes
to a marriage and to arelationship, right?
And Khadija radhi Allah wasincredibly unique, right?
I love that hadith because itwas a reminder of everything
that she did for him, too, right, where she was the first to
support him at a time where hehad no supporters, and all of
(32:19):
these different things whichshows the.
I look at that hadith also aslook at the impact that being
supportive of your spouse canhave on their feelings towards
you, right, like being a sourceof support, being a source of
strengthening and raising upyour spouse.
And that's the key in anyrelationship.
(32:42):
Losing a spouse to death, evendivorce, is.
You might still have feelingsfor that person, and that's okay
.
This was a relationship thatwas a huge part of your life.
You might still have somefeelings for that person, but
the key is is that are thosefeelings going to get in the way
(33:03):
of a new, a new marriage, right?
So even in the case of divorce,sometimes people will still
have, like you'll remember, youmight remember a good time or
something like that, and the keyin these situations, when you
have this feeling, is transformit into da'at for that person.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Allah.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Subh'anaHu Wa Ta-A'la .
Yeah, like if somebody, if yourspouse, has passed away, that's
a very obvious one.
Those feelings, that's a sign.
I heard a definition of love,uh, that um of grief, that it's
love that has nowhere to goright.
So that's when you feel thatsense of love, that's your sign
to make da'at.
It does in in our faith thatlove has somewhere to go right.
So that's when you feel thatsense of love, that's your sign
to make da'at.
It does in our faith that lovehas somewhere to go and that's
(33:41):
toward da'at.
That's going to weigh on theirscales on the day of judgment.
But even in the case of adivorce, especially if they're
children from this divorce,making da'at for your ex-spouse,
that is also making da'at foryour children, right, because
you want the best for the fatheror mother of your children as
well.
So that's something that can behelpful.
Du'a can be a very powerfultool.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
That's like the epitome of maturity making du'a
to the person you just divorced.
There's supposed to be somehard feelings, but if you're
able to bring yourself and makedu'a for them, that's like
you've made it, I guess, right.
Yeah absolutely Beautiful,beautiful.
How about setting up realisticexpectations after divorce?
(34:25):
Because after divorce, yousuddenly feel that, no, because
my ex was like this, I don'twant this to be in the next one.
They have to be this and thisand this and this.
So how can we set up realisticexpectations?
Speaker 1 (34:37):
one they have to be this and this and this and this.
So how can we set up realisticexpectations?
Yeah, and it's hard, because alot of times, when you're
looking into a new relationship,you're going to see all of the
fears that you have.
You're going to be veryhypervigilant about any sign
that they might have somethingsimilar to your ex and that's
going to either push you away orit's actually going to propel
(34:59):
you toward the relationship,because people tend to fall into
the same patterns, right?
So sometimes it's verydifficult to break the pattern
of finding things attractive,even if they're not healthy,
because they feel familiar.
So it's actually very importantto be aware of the things that
tend to draw you into arelationship and whether those
(35:20):
are the things you actually needand whether they're healthy or
not.
But, yeah, one of the issuescan be that you set unrealistic
expectations because you have togo into a relationship knowing
this person is going to make amistake and not be afraid of the
impact that that mistake canhave on you.
Because the key is, yes,everybody's imperfect, everybody
(35:44):
will make mistakes.
But how is this person going tohandle the mistake?
That's what makes or breaks arelationship, right, how does
the person handle a mistake.
Okay, this person might've, youknow, said something that I
found a little bit hurtful.
Okay, how do they handle it?
How do they handle it when Ibring it up?
Do they dismiss it?
Do they dismiss my emotion, dothey dismiss my concern?
(36:05):
Or do they turn it back onthemselves and say, oh, I
clearly am the bad person here,or whatever, and things like
that.
Maybe this is not going to workand they go to extremes?
Or are they able to say, oh, Ireally didn't intend it like
that.
I'm really sorry.
I'm glad that you told me aboutit.
Is there anything that you needto in this moment?
Is this person also willing?
(36:26):
I think, especially if you'vebeen through a divorce, going
through premarital counseling isreally, really essential.
So are they willing, in thegetting to know each other
process, to work with aprofessional?
Because obviously this is goingto be a situation where there
is naturally going to be baggagethat's coming into the
relationship and so so thathelps also with setting
realistic expectations, becausea third party, an objective
(36:48):
third party, can tell you hey, Ithink that you're being
unrealistic here I remember astory of a client comes to mind
right now where they were likeworking on their marriage and
they decided to go to therapyand the therapist he felt that
the therapist was blaming him aswell.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
His wife was blaming him.
The therapist was blaming himand he felt like he was in the
corner trying to defend himself.
That's unusual for a therapistright.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
I would say so unusual.
Okay, so here's my thing.
I hear that and I think tomyself he might really struggle
with hearing feedback and anytype of feedback that's heard is
interpreted as an attack.
(37:41):
Because a lot of timestherapists are very sensitive
about the way that they presentfeedback right.
They're careful, but somepeople are extremely sensitive
and I've had marriage counselingclients where you know there
was one in particular where Iwere in the couple clients where
you know there was one inparticular where I in the couple
, as long as the focus was onwhat the husband needed to
change and we were kind ofaddressing that, it was fine.
(38:03):
As soon as I turned and startedto talk about the wife's
contribution, the sessions endedlike they wow.
So so it depends right, itdepends on whether a person is
ready for it or not.
Like sometimes, people comeinto marriage counseling
thinking I'm a hundred percentright, I am like, this person
(38:24):
needs to change and that's whywe're here.
And as soon as they realize,wait, I have something to
contribute to.
And here's this objectiveperson really telling me that
here's something I need tochange.
They can't, they can't handleit, they're not ready for that,
and so they didn't come in tochange.
They came in to change theother person and so, no matter
what they hear, it's going to beinterpreted that way as an
attack.
Speaker 3 (38:45):
Interesting, so do they continue with counseling,
or do they kind of run throughthe course or or they start
blaming the therapist.
This therapist doesn't knowwhat she's talking about and
they end blaming the therapist.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
This therapist doesn't know what she's talking
about and they end it rightthere.
It's up to them.
It's up to them Because, also,sometimes the fit, you know, and
I tend to be a little bitcautious too, when you have
Muslim couples come in, I wouldprefer you see a Muslim
counselor, because sometimesthere are misconceptions and a
non-Muslim counselor might verywell side with the woman, right,
(39:17):
because they're going to thinkshe's oppressed, right, like
there's this natural, you know,like feeling, and so actually
the man might be being attacked.
It might not be unbiased.
A therapist is human and theyhave their own biases and that's
why, so I think, being carefulabout the fit, and then I would
also, in those moments I wouldhave encouraged him talk to the
(39:39):
therapist, schedule a one-on-onesession with the therapist to
share what you're feeling, toshare your concern here, and
that they might not beunderstanding your perspective,
and then see what comes from ittoo.
That can actually be really agrowth opportunity in the
therapy.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
Okay, actually be really a growth opportunity in
the therapy.
Okay, speaking of therapy, wasthere like an equivalent to
therapy in our Islamic historyin terms of marriage counseling?
Speaker 1 (40:07):
So there's a verse in the Quran where people are
encouraged, when there is amarital conflict, to seek
advisors, right, one from herfamily, one from his family and
so that was kind of the that'ssomething that was really
encouraged.
These days it's not a lot oftimes, unfortunately, families
are not equipped to be able tohandle it that well, and so a
(40:33):
lot of times it's easier to goto somebody who's going to be
educated about the approachesand things like that.
But it's been a huge part ofour tradition to go to people of
knowledge and wisdom to seekadvice, and so going to people
who have Islamic knowledge, topeople who you know, like this,
is something that is from ourtradition.
People always go to thecompanions for advice obviously
(40:55):
to the Prophet Muhammad, youknow and so seeking advice, the
Prophet says that the deen isnasiha.
The deen, our faith, is goodadvice.
So giving and taking goodadvice is something that's
highly, highly encouraged.
What's different now is that wejust have training programs.
You know, we have trainingprograms for therapy and things
(41:16):
like that, and now,alhamdulillah, we also have
training programs that involveIslamic therapy, so that you
know, you can incorporate theIslamic element, because that's
been missing for a while.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's a verse you specificallymentioned.
You know the beautiful thingabout it is.
It says إِيُّ رِيْدَ إِصْلَاحَيُوَفِّقْ لَهُ بَيْنَهُمَّ.
If these two judges from bothsides want to do islah, want to
mend things, then Allah will puttawfiq in it.
(41:46):
But, like you said today, herfamily take her side, his family
takes his side, and then itgoes from being a problem
between a husband and wife toproblem between two families.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
Unfortunately, yes, and you know, you know like
there are some families wherereally there are people within
the families that are so wisemashallah and are able to really
handle it beautifully.
And so if you know in your ownfamily that you have access to
people like that and that yourspouse has access to people like
(42:16):
that, then great, Right.
But if you don't, you know,then that, and then also
sometimes the issue between thetwo spouses is very personal and
the exposure of those issuescan be difficult.
You don't want to involveanybody that will know this
person for life, right.
(42:36):
And so meeting with somebodywho is completely anonymous, who
has confidentiality as part ofthe rules of their career, can
make people feel a little bitmore comfortable.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
Okay, okay, you mentioned trust a few questions
ago.
How can somebody rebuild trustin a way that's healthy?
They want to protect themselveswe're talking about after
divorce, of course and at thesame time, letting vulnerable,
like being able to be vulnerablewith a new person.
(43:10):
So there's this, like there'smiddle point.
How can they find it?
Speaker 1 (43:16):
And it's again one of the things that takes a lot of
work right.
I think rebuilding trust is oneof the biggest challenges.
Once trust has been broken,it's very difficult to rebuild
it in a relationship, obviously,but also within a person's
heart.
You know, and so the first stepI would say you know the Rasul
sallallahu alayhi wa sallam,when he was asked by a Bed's
(43:37):
heart.
You know, and so the first stepI would say you know the Rasul
sallallahu alayhi wa sallam,when he was asked by a Bedouin I
have this camel, should I tieher or should I trust in Allah
that she's not going to run andjust leave her?
The Prophet sallallahu alayhiwa sallam said you tie your
camel and you trust in Allah.
These are two simultaneousthings, and so building trust is
something that happensinternally, but it's also
(43:59):
something that requires action,and so the first thing is
building trust in Allah.
A lot of times when a person'strust is broken in a
relationship with a person, theyinadvertently put that broken
trust in between them and Allahin their relationship.
Because if this person, who Iwas so close to this, I gave
them my life, they were myspouse, I trusted them with
(44:20):
everything.
If they broke my trust.
Who can I trust?
Sometimes it even results inthem questioning their ability
to trust Allah, and what is sohard about that is that is the
trust you most need at thatpoint to heal, that Allah is the
source of all healing.
He's the source of all peace.
He's As-Salam right.
(44:41):
He's the source of all of thesebeautiful things that we need
the most at these hardest, mostdifficult times in life, and
when a person doesn't have that,that's really difficult.
So that's the first thing Iwould focus on rebuilding your
trust with Allah.
How to do that?
The first thing I would focuson rebuilding your trust with
Allah.
How to do that?
The first that I alwaysencourage is getting to know
Allah.
You can't trust someone youdon't know, and so
(45:05):
reinvigorating your relationshipwith the Quran, with meaning
and understanding and the namesof Allah, delving into the names
of Allah, seeing how theyresonate in your life, how you
see them manifest in your life,and realizing you trust Allah
every single moment, with everysingle breath.
So working on building thattrust with Allah first, and then
(45:25):
, when you are ready to get toknow a new person, you tie your
camel right.
You tie your camel meaning.
How do I get to know this personin a way that I can see if it's
worth my trust.
So you're going to seek advicefrom people who know them.
You're going to seek advicefrom people who know you, where
you're going to share yourexperience.
(45:45):
You're going to have thisperson meet those people as well
.
The judgment call does not onlyneed to be on your shoulders,
and I think that the more thatwe can involve a village for
ourselves, then the more helpfulthat's going to be, because a
lot of times after a divorce theself-doubt creeps in, and if
you have people help you make adecision in a way that feels
(46:09):
comfortable, then it reallyhelps to alleviate some of that
self-doubt.
Speaker 2 (46:14):
Okay, the importance of Shura?
Right, yeah, a story comes tomind.
I'm sorry, zaid, I'm stealingall the questions, but things
are coming to my mind.
So a client.
She was divorced.
We tried to match her withmultiple matches and at the end
of the day we found a person.
We set up a meeting.
(46:35):
They spent three hours togetherand after the meeting I think
she said yes I'm not sure abouther answer, but he said no
because he said she's not ready.
I can see she's not ready?
Yes, and she's like.
I don't want to put her throughsomething similar again.
And so how can somebodyrecognize if they're ready or
(46:58):
not?
Because that girl came to usshe wanted to get married and
she didn't know that she wasn'tready.
Speaker 3 (47:04):
I think, just to add to that, what happened in that
situation was that, from thebrother's feedback, there was a
lot of unloading that happenedduring those three hours.
The first meeting In the firstmeeting she just unloaded all of
her trauma and everything andhe was just like, oh my God.
It just seemed he was a bitoverwhelmed and turned off,
unfortunately, and that's why hemade the decision to not move
(47:25):
forward with that sister.
Speaker 1 (47:28):
That's exactly what I was.
My follow-up to you sharingthis was I was going to ask did
she spend the time venting Rightand so?
Because a lot of times that'san indication that you're not
ready?
I was going to ask did shespend the time venting Right and
so?
Because a lot of times that'san indication that you're not
ready is when you're you, yourdays are spent thinking about
(47:49):
this situation, when it is stilleverything that you live and
breathe, right, where, where is.
I can't believe I remember thatsituation where he said that to
me I can't believe that I amgoing through this and I'm at
this age and I went through amarriage and I'm divorced.
I can't believe that, like thatsituation where he said that
about me or this person, likegoing back and you know,
(48:12):
thinking about all the arguments, thinking about the things that
happen and if it reliving that,that is, that shows that you're
still in the trauma.
You have not healed from thetrauma.
If you are living in that andit's constantly coming up in
your memories, it's normal forit to come up every once in a
while.
You smell a scent scent.
You smell the scent of yourex's cologne, and it brings, of
(48:33):
course, that's going to benormal, right.
You go, you see, you drive pastthe place and you remember
something that you went theretogether at some point.
That's normal right.
These like little things thatbring up memories.
That's to be expected.
But when it's the first thingyou think about when you wake up
, it's the last thing you'rethinking about when you go to
sleep, when you talk to anybodyand you unload, and this has
(48:57):
become your life, where this isall that you're talking about.
That is a very, very clear signthat you're not ready yet.
Speaker 2 (49:23):
I'm thinking about.
Speaker 1 (49:25):
You mentioned before like you differentiated between
regular divorce and divorcebecause of abuse.
Speaker 3 (49:27):
Now I'm thinking of my friend my best friend just
got divorce.
Speaker 1 (49:29):
With or without abuse , there is self-esteem work that
needs to be done, but withabuse it's a lot more, because
abuse and what keeps people inabusive relationships is the
feeling that there's anunderlying feeling of do I
deserve this?
Did I do something that broughtthis upon me?
(49:52):
If I had maybe made sure thatdinner was ready at a certain
time, maybe he wouldn't haveberated me and called me names,
right, I just need to changethat and it'll be better.
I just need to do this andit'll be better.
And so there's this tendency toreally put a lot of
responsibility on your ownshoulders Now once you leave and
(50:16):
you're able to get some spaceand realize.
So actually, a lot of timespeople come into therapy if
they're in abusive relationshipsand they're like, okay, I'm
trying to work on my marriageand everything, and by the end
of therapy they end up gettingdivorced because now they
actually realize that they werein an abusive relationship.
They didn't realize it before,right.
And so once you get, once youare divorced and you're away
(50:39):
from this abusive relationship,you can see it through a more
objective lens and really startto allow it to click, to think,
okay, like it's not normal forsomebody to call somebody names
or curse somebody out becausethey didn't have dinner ready.
It's not normal to feel like,oh, I have to make sure
everything is exactly in theright place before he comes home
(51:00):
from work, otherwise he's goingto be upset.
It's like these things are notnormal.
So first is being able tounderstand what is normal and
what's not normal.
Therapy is a very good placefor that.
So I would recommend that once.
If you have ever been throughan abusive relationship and
that's a traumatic experience,therapy is going to be really,
really important to be able tomove past it.
(51:21):
And then, because that'simportant for self-esteem, work.
You can't work on yourunderstanding of yourself until
you can differentiate what wasokay and what was not okay,
because if you're blamingyourself like just like we
talked about the importance ofaccountability, being overly
accountable for things that areactually not yours to be
accountable for, that can beunhealthy too.
(51:43):
So that helps to piece ittogether.
Speaker 2 (51:46):
Okay, may Allah make it easy for everyone.
Speaker 3 (51:49):
Amen.
Speaker 2 (51:51):
Any last advice for our single listeners who are
starting over again?
Speaker 1 (51:58):
May Allah make it easy for you as you embark on
this journey.
It's definitely a journey.
There's a lot of growth that isneeded, but viewing it not as I
am coming out of a failedrelationship, but more that this
relationship was a steppingstone as a part of my journey
(52:19):
forward and I have learned a lotabout myself.
I have learned a lot about whatI need in a spouse and, even
more importantly, I have alsolearned what I don't need in a
spouse, right?
So you're going in actuallyreally well equipped with more
knowledge of yourself and whatyou're looking for in a
relationship than a lot of otherpeople are going into it with.
And so, using this as a timethis time after a divorce,
(52:42):
before starting to look forsomeone or in the midst of
starting to look for someoneprioritize building a strong
connection with Allah subhanahuwa ta'ala, and prioritize
growing yourself, prioritizebuilding your interests, because
you want to go into thisrelationship as a whole person.
You don't want to go into thisrelationship where I'm trying to
fill this void that's nowmissing because I've been
(53:05):
divorced.
No, I want to be a whole personand I'm going to go into this
relationship to find anotherwhole person so we can build a
relationship together.
Inshallah, may Allah putbarakah in it.
Bless it for all of you who arelooking for a spouse.
May Allah guide you to thespouse who's going to be best
for you and your deen and yourdunya.
Speaker 2 (53:25):
I mean, I think this episode is going to resonate
with a lot of our listeners,like we get and we know that a
lot of listeners are startingover.
We hear a lot of stories.
So I think you've done aphenomenal work, mashallah, and
we'd love to have you againmaybe in the future to discuss
other topics, if you're open toit.
Speaker 1 (53:46):
Absolutely.
Jazakumullah khair for havingme.
It was a pleasure speaking withboth of you.
Jazakumullah khair for havingme.
It was a pleasure speaking withboth of you.
Jazakumullah khair.
Speaker 3 (53:52):
So if anybody is seeking help, seeking
professional help, how can theyget in touch with you?
And just to confirm you dooffer virtual counseling,
correct Texas?
Speaker 1 (54:00):
because that's where I'm licensed and right now I'm
not taking on new clientsbecause I'm at capacity, but
feel free to email me at therapyat sarahsultancom and I will be
happy to provide you with alist of referrals.
There are a ton of Muslim,wonderful Muslim counselors out
(54:22):
there, mashallah.
I'm happy to help you findsomebody who will be a good
match for you in this journey.
And if you want just you knowinformation or posts and things
like that, my Instagram.
I post on there.
Sometimes I'm not veryconsistent, but that's Sana
Sultan Therapy on Instagram.
Speaker 2 (54:40):
Inshallah, we will link your email, your Instagram.
Thank you again, jazakumullahkhair, thank you to our
beautiful listeners and we willsee you in the next one,
assalamualaikum.
Speaker 1 (54:51):
Waalaikumussalam.
Everybody has their own version of reality.
That is their truth, that'swhat they believe to be true.
But unless you can really startto think about what role did I
play, unless there's that senseof muhasabah right, that
self-accountability that we areencouraged to engage in
Islamically, then how are yougoing to learn and grow and how
are those patterns not gonnarepeat?
(00:20):
You're gonna fall right intothe same steps of that dance but
just with a different person.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Assalamu alaikum, I'm hiba and I'm zaid.
You're listening to diary of amatchmaker, a podcast that will
take you into our world asmatchmakers we'll share our
experiences and offer advice forthe single muslim so let's dive
in, all right.
(00:55):
All right, so welcome to anotherepisode.
Everyone, my name is Zaid andthis is my wife, Hiba, and we
are honored today to have aspecial guest, Sister Sara
Sultan.
She is a licensed professionalcounselor who works to help her
clients live more fulfillinglives by reconnecting with Allah
.
Sara has a master's degree inmental health counseling and has
(01:18):
practiced therapy for over 10years.
She is an instructor withMishka University and Al-Maghrib
Institute, where she teachescourses about the intersection
between Islam, psychology andcounseling, and is also a
research fellow at YaqeenInstitute for Islamic Research.
So thank you for coming onboard.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
We're excited to have you.
Thank you so much.
We have a lot in store for you.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
So, as you already know, getting married is not
easy, whether you're divorced,whether you're widowed.
Your engagement just broke off.
You could have been in thecourting phase for maybe six
months and then, for some reason, it broke off.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
So, in your opinion, what is harder starting or
starting over?
I think that's a great question.
I think that both take acertain amount of courage.
But I think when you're firststarting the marriage process
there's naturally a little bitof trepidation that comes with
it, but there's also a lot ofexcitement in the hopes of
meeting someone that you'regoing to spend your life with.
(02:31):
But I think, starting over, alot of times the fear outweighs
the excitement, because you knowhow much is at stake, you know
how much can go wrong, you knowhow heartbroken you can become,
you know how much pain you canendure in that process.
And so the amount of bravery orcourage that it takes to jump
(02:52):
back in after a difficultrelationship, I think is a lot
more than when you're just firststarting out.
It's just like you know.
It's just like any.
You know any situation.
When you're first going to getyour license to drive a car,
you're excited, you're lookingforward to it and everything.
But after that first accident,right after that first fender
(03:13):
bender or whatever it is, thenthe fear of getting behind the
wheel.
It takes a lot of extra courageand bravery to be able to do
that.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Yeah, and that fear often becomes a hindrance right
In starting over.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
It can.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
It can, yeah.
So what are some of thestruggles you're seeing in your
line of work with peoplestarting over, especially maybe
after divorce?
Speaker 1 (03:39):
You know, I think that naturally, that fear that
fear is can be both a pro and acon right.
The fear can propel like, canactually propel you to learn
more about yourself, towardsself-discovery, toward growth
and toward thriving.
I actually find that a lot ofpeople who have been through
difficulties in pastrelationships, a divorce
(04:00):
situation they tend to be moreself-aware about what they're
bringing to the table in amarriage than a lot of first
timers tend to have.
And there's also this need andthis want to be able to grow and
to understand what happened.
What can I learn from thatsituation so that I don't repeat
(04:20):
the same mistakes going intothis relationship, so that also,
maybe the person I choose hasdifferent qualities than the
person I didn't get along within my past relationship.
So that fear can actuallypropel a person toward growth,
which is beautiful.
But then, on the opposite sideof things, that fear can also
hold a person back, because nowit's this fear of okay, how am I
(04:43):
going to trust somebody again?
How am I going to be able toput myself out there again and
risk my heart again, put in andinvest so much effort into a
relationship and into a personafter I've been burned so badly
in the past.
And so there it's.
A it's a.
It's a double-edged sword.
It can, there's a pro to it,but then there can also be cons.
(05:04):
A it's a double-edged sword itcan.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
There's a pro to it, but then there can also be cons.
Okay, so, as matchmakers, a lotof times we get uh calls and um
like interest from people whoare divorced but they want to
start over, and we always ask uh, what lessons do you take from
your previous relationship?
What were the circumstancesbehind the divorce?
And a lot of times not all thetimes, but a lot of times what
(05:27):
we hear is it was the otherperson's problem, they were this
, they were that.
Now, of course, we all think weare right.
Right, and that's why we do thethings we do, because we think
we're right.
But when starting over, how cansomebody decide if it was their
fault and things they need towork on, or if it was the other
person's fault and theyshouldn't like blame themselves?
Speaker 1 (05:52):
You know, one of the things that I often advise my
clients who are getting to knowsomebody for the purposes of
marriage, and if they're gettingto know somebody if they
themselves have been through adivorce, obviously that's
something that we are workingthrough and talking through.
But if they're getting to knowsomebody if they themselves have
been through a divorce,obviously that's something that
we are working through andtalking through.
But if they're also getting toknow somebody for marriage who
has been through a divorce, oneof the questions I always ask
(06:13):
them is, when you ask them aboutthe divorce, when you ask them
about the marriage, what's theirresponse?
And if their response is he, he, he or she, she, she and it was
all that, it was all about whatthe other person did, I'm sorry
, they're not ready, like that'salways my impression.
They're not ready Because,unless you're going to be
(06:39):
self-reflective, the pattern isjust going to repeat itself.
It takes two people to tango.
There's actually a metaphor inmarriage counseling that
marriage is like a dance, and aslong as both spouses do the
same steps for this dance, thedance always stays the same
until someone is self-awareenough to break away and change
the steps of the dance.
Then the dance changes and so,after a marriage ends, you have
(07:00):
to reflect on what steps was Itaking to contribute to this
dance?
It's a two-way street, it's not.
Yes, sometimes there's somebodywho is more accountable, sure,
you know, especially obviouslyin cases of abuse and things
like that, it's a differentsituation.
I'm not talking about cases ofabuse, I'm talking about typical
falling out that happens inmarriages.
(07:22):
But unless you're willing toacknowledge the role that you
play everybody has their ownversion of reality, and
everybody's.
That is their truth, that'swhat they believe to be true.
But unless you can really startto think about okay, what role
did I play?
Unless there's that sense ofmuhasabah right, that
self-accountability that we areencouraged to engage in
(07:45):
Islamically, then how are yougoing to learn and grow and how
are those patterns not going torepeat?
You're going to fall right intothe same steps of that dance,
but just with a different person.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
As a brother.
If I'm speaking to somebody forthe purpose of marriage and I
discover that this sister hadbeen through a divorce, what
signs would indicate to me thatshe's truly ready to move on
emotionally?
What practical steps can I taketo assess that and just make a
(08:16):
decision for myself?
Speaker 2 (08:19):
And same thing if it was the other way around.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
Yeah, yeah for both, because the signs are the same
for for both men and women, andso the biggest thing that I
would look for is, um,self-awareness.
I would also look for um,emotional healing, right.
So for self-awareness thatwould look like, okay, uh, you
(08:43):
talk about the divorce andthey're able to acknowledge,
like, here are some of thethings that happened, here are
the ways that I've grown throughit, here are the ways that I've
worked on myself so that I amready to go into another
relationship, and here are theworries I have about what I
might be bringing into thismarriage because of my past
(09:04):
experiences.
That I'm working one of themain things in.
I think in anything, whetherit's divorce, whether it's any
type of difficult experience,any type of traumatic experience
that a person has gone throughit's awareness of I am working
on differentiating whether myreaction right now is because of
(09:25):
the issue I'm facing right nowor if it's a reaction to
something I faced in the past.
Right.
So, understanding what are mytriggers, what are the things
that are hard for me to dealwith Because they trigger a past
experience, and I am working onbeing aware of that so that I
don't necessarily overreact insomething that might be a small
(09:46):
situation, but it feels biggerbecause of my past experiences.
So that's part of selfawareness, right?
Emotional healing is also a partof that right when it's okay, I
can identify that.
These are the experiences Iwent through and here's how they
made me feel and here's how I'mworking through that, so
(10:11):
understanding that this was theplan of Allah, and I'm really
working on trusting Allah has abetter plan for me, that he's
the best of planners.
So emotional and spiritualhealing because a lot of times,
going through a difficultexperience also requires
spiritual healing how am I usingthis to view this as a test
from Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala,as that this was not a failure,
(10:32):
but this was a stepping stonetoward my future?
And how am I using this to getcloser to Allah subhanahu wa
ta'ala?
Because that's the goal of anytest, right?
Some of those are just a coupleof the things that that I would
uh, I would look for.
Also.
Some of the more clear-cutthings is is there anything
that's off the table of thingsthat they want to discuss?
(10:53):
Are they being very secretive?
Are they being?
Are they being avoidant ofcertain questions?
That to me, would indicate thatthey're not ready, like there's
still a lot that's happeninginternally that they're not
willing to touch, but it's goingto show up later.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Do you think that a lot of people do all these steps
and reflect and do selfaccountability or cause?
It sounds so beautiful and soideal, but in our culture do we
really do that?
Speaker 1 (11:25):
I think, generationally.
Now there is a lot more of that.
I will say I think it's amongstMuslim women more than amongst
Muslim men, but there are a lotof Muslim men who are, you know,
really like there are moreMuslim male counselors now,
mashallah.
So there's especially with theintertwining of faith with
mental health.
(11:46):
I think that has allowed thecommunity to feel a little bit
more comfortable with some ofthese efforts, because there's
more of an awareness.
Before, the idea ofself-reflection, of going into
therapy, was really scarybecause it's like what are they
going to do, to my mind, how arethey going to mess me up, right
?
Really scary because it's likewhat are they going to do, to my
mind, how are they going tomess me up, right?
(12:06):
But now that people areeducating themselves a little
bit more about how Islam andmental health are intertwined, I
think it gives people a littlebit more of an avenue to be able
to do that.
Regardless of that, though, Ithink that this is hard work.
This is very hard to do.
It is a lot easier to just getmarried again right Than to do
(12:28):
the work of actually healingbefore getting married again.
It is very hard work and a lotof times, immediately after a
divorce, what feels better isokay, I'm just going to find
another partner.
I'm going to find somebody elsewho's going to see the good in
me and I'm going to prove thatthat person.
The problem was my ex-spouse,right, and that's what feels
(12:49):
good in the moment.
Unless they give themselves alittle bit of time to realize
that's not what I need right now.
But it is hard work, so a lotof people are not really willing
to do it.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
I thought so.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
There's also that struggle of finding that balance
between faith and action, whereyou understand that so much of
what has happened in yournegative experience was part of
a lost plan and it was a test.
But also there was somewrongdoing on your part, or the
spouse's part in the case oftrauma, or abuse, your part or
(13:27):
the spouse's part in the case oftrauma or abuse.
So there's always that strugglebetween finding the balance and
understanding.
Okay, was this a test?
Did I do something wrong?
How do I wrap my head aroundthis right?
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Yeah, absolutely Absolutely, and I think that
it's always good to start from aplace of acknowledging that yes
, I did do something wrong,unless, as we said, abuse let's
take that off the table, right.
But yes, I did do somethingwrong and the other person did
something wrong too, that it'sgoing to be both.
(13:57):
But I can't change the otherperson, even if I'm still
married to that person.
I can't change them.
I can only change myself.
I can only put the effort intotransforming the way I show up
in relationships, and one of theways action-wise I think that's
a really good point,action-wise to consider.
(14:17):
That is what about in otherrelationships.
Marriage is a very uniquerelationship.
But what about in otherrelationships in your life?
How are you showing up withfriends?
How are you showing up withyour parents?
How are you showing up withyour siblings, with other family
members, right?
How are you showing up withyour coworkers at work?
Are there personality traits?
Are there things that you tendto do that make it difficult to
(14:39):
be in any relationship with you?
Right, and we all have ourquirks, we all have our personal
struggles, and if you viewyourself as like well, no,
everybody loves me, I'm perfect,there's nothing wrong with me,
then you know, a little moreself-reflection would be really
beneficial there, right?
Because everybody has thingsthat get on other people's
(15:02):
nerves and if you have reallystrong relationships with family
and friends and things likethat, you can ask them.
You can ask them, like, ifthere's one goal and one area
that you would love to see megrow in, what would that area be
?
Would it be that you go fromzero to 60 really quickly and
you react very stronglyemotionally, very quickly?
(15:23):
Is it that when things get hard,you try to escape because it's
just really difficult to handleit and so you're
non-confrontational, you don'twant to resolve the conflict,
right?
What are the things that mightbe difficult for you to bring
into a relationship if you wantit to be healthy?
And so, asking people aboutthat, self-reflecting on, okay,
(15:44):
what are the typical arguments?
If I look back on the years offriendships, family
relationships, marriage,whatever it is, what are the
typical things when I look backon that tended to get between me
and another person and see ifyou can figure out a pattern
that can be really, reallyhelpful, and see if you can
figure out a pattern that can bereally, really helpful.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Okay, speaking of getting on other person's nerves
, you know, just like you said,marriage is such a unique
relationship.
Before we got married, I neverknew I could get on someone's
nerves.
I've never had this problem,but then I learned something new
about myself, thanks to you,zaid.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Speaking of self-reflection, how can
somebody do the self-reflectionand the self-accountability,
find that balance between doingthat and not getting stuck in a
cycle of self-blame and maybeself-hatred?
Speaker 1 (16:49):
You know, your first comment about, like, how
marriage is such a uniquerelationship, it's so true,
right, because the Prophet saysthat marriage is half your deen,
right, and so once you getmarried, then guard the other
half of your faith.
And you know when, before youget married, you hear that
hadith and it's like, it's likethis motivation of, okay, I want
to fulfill half my deen, I wantto, you know, get married and
(17:15):
everything, but once you'remarried, you realize that it's
because it's hard, that it'shalf your faith.
This is not, this is not goingto be something that's easy and
something that's so powerful.
I was reflecting on this hadithand I was thinking, like you,
our faith, our faith journey, isa relationship between us and
Allah, but also part of ourfaith is our relationship with
(17:35):
Allah's creation, and there'snobody who we're like in their
face and you know, constantlywith as much as our spouse,
right, and so, giving our spousetheir rights and treating
Allah's creation well, it makessense that marriage is going to
be half your deed, because it'sa big test, right, it's a
blessing, but it's a test, youknow.
(17:56):
And so so, yeah, you know itbrings and it brings up a lot of
growth, right, where yourealize.
Oh, I never knew that thiscould be annoying to somebody
right, absolutely, absolutely,100%, yeah, absolutely.
And so then you said the otherquestion was about how to
balance between self-reflectionand self-blame, right?
So the difference betweenhealthy guilt and unhealthy
(18:21):
guilt, self-accountability andself-blame or harming yourself
in that process, is what you dowith it.
So healthy guilt should propelus toward growth and should
propel us toward Allah,subhanahu wa ta'ala, right?
So, for example, that wouldlook like okay, I'm reflecting
back on my past marriagerelationship, whatever, or this
(18:43):
argument that I had with afriend or a family member, and I
acknowledge that I reallydidn't communicate the way that
I ideally would have, that maybeI got overly emotional, maybe I
interpreted what they said in anegative way and I should have
given them benefit of the doubt.
I acknowledge that I didn't dothat, and next time I'm going to
(19:05):
try to improve on that.
I'm going to go in knowing thattheir intention is good.
I'm going to go in trying tobreathe through it so that I
don't react emotionally, andright now I'm going to apologize
to them for my shortcoming inthat situation.
That's healthy guilt.
It propels you toward growthand change, and it also propels
you toward doing somethingthat's pleasing to Allah.
Unhealthy guilt is like, andthat self-blame idea is I'm just
(19:30):
unworthy of love, that I cannever do anything right, and
sometimes people will bring thisinto arguments in marriage
where, okay, it's clear, I'mjust the bad person here, I
can't do anything right, and youknow, and they bring that in to
shut down the conversation.
That's not right, where youjust make it about yourself and
you make it like, oh, I am justnot a good person, I am a bad
(19:50):
person and I'm hopeless.
Okay, well then, what hope doyou have for growth in that case
?
So that's the differencebetween reflecting on something
to allow yourself to grow andblaming yourself so that you
actually just stay the same ormove backward.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Interesting, yeah, especially what you just said
about I'm a bad person.
It's like what is it?
Reverse psychology, or whatexactly is it?
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Yeah, it's kind of like.
It's like I'm saying all thebad things already.
You can't hurt me anymore, youknow like okay, fine, I'm just
going to shut down theconversation.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
It's a way of avoiding the conversation and a
way of shutting it down, theconversation and a way of
shutting it down, and then theother person starts feeling
guilty and, like you, forgetwhat you were talking about in
the beginning and now you'rebusy trying to feel.
Try to make them feel rightabout themselves, right yeah?
Speaker 1 (20:40):
you end up trying to reassure them, and the issue
with that is that a lot of timesthis comes up in situations
where one spouse has a concern,right, so they bring it up and
they'll say something like youknow, it was really frustrating
when I, you know, realized thatyou didn't do such and such, or
you know you did such and such,or whatever it is.
(21:01):
They're trying to say like,okay, I felt such and such way
about that, and then the persondoesn't know how to deal with
that.
They feel really like angryabout it, or they feel
frustrated, or they feel badlywithin themselves, and so,
instead of acknowledging themistake that they made and how
they're going to work on it,instead it's okay, I'm always
wrong, I'm always a bad personand all that stuff, and so now
(21:23):
there's no space for the otherperson's concern.
Now they have to reassure theirspouse when meanwhile they were
the one who had a concern tocome up with first.
So it's one of the ways of kindof avoiding the argument.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
Mm-hmm.
Well, would that also beconsidered a form of gaslighting
too?
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Yeah, people would kind of use that term.
Well, gaslighting would be morelike making them think that I
guess it could be, because it iskind of making them think that
whatever they're saying is notreasonable.
Right.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
And it's the other person's fault, not mine, yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
So it's kind of a way of gaslighting yeah, I don't
use the terminology too often, Ithink that it's just one of my.
It's one of my things.
I just feel like people, peopleuse terms and they become
really popular after a while andthen everything becomes
narcissism and gaslighting andall this stuff.
Absolutely.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Um, so do you have like stories to share where, uh,
somebody, where somebodystarted doing self-reflection?
Or like no, let me rephrase Doyou have stories where someone,
after a failed relationship,were able to grow and learn
something new about themselvesand become such a better version
(22:47):
of themselves?
Speaker 1 (22:49):
Oh yeah, absolutely, Absolutely.
I see it.
I see it all the time in my, infriendships, I see it all the
time in in therapy, with myclients.
You know, especially people whocome into therapy.
They are primed for that rightLike this is what they want.
They want to be able to heal.
So I'm trying to think of even aspecific example, so someone,
(23:15):
someone that I know, you know,whenever I think of, like
divorce in I mean, there's somany examples actually really
hard.
Okay, I'll combine, but like Ithink of the experiences that
I've had, most of them withwomen, because I tend to work
with women and then all myfriends are women as well.
Right, so I will say that,although there are a lot of
(23:35):
brothers who also have this aswell, mashallah.
But like I thinking of oneperson, in one person in
particular, where, after herdivorce, she actually started a
she, she was part of a Christiansupport group for divorcees and
then she brought it to theMuslim community and she
transformed it so that in like,in the community, we actually
(23:58):
have a support group for Muslimswho have been through a divorce
and she helped to create thecurriculum, run the groups, all
of these different things.
So she used her difficultexperience to propel her toward
helping others through that sameexperience, mashallah.
I have another person that Iknow who just seeing you know
she and her husband.
(24:19):
They got a divorce and her exand then, and seeing her grow
and seeing her deal with it andthe challenges of being a single
mother so gracefully,SubhanAllah, and seeing her
thrive.
She wrote a book, shecontributed to another book.
She has enhanced her personalhobbies in ways that really
(24:43):
allowed her to grow in suchbeautiful ways and to model that
for her children.
The ways that she's invested inher friendships and her social
relationships, the way that shewent for another degree and
progressed at work, isconstantly going to Islamic
classes and learning about Islamas a way to get closer to Allah
in this process.
(25:03):
I mean, I can't even like keepgoing with the list, right, like
so.
So I think you know there's aterm in trauma therapy that that
when somebody goes through atraumatic experience and they
come out better on the otherside.
It's called post traumaticgrowth and people often think
(25:26):
that post traumatic growth isvery unique, like there are very
few people.
But the research has shown thatover 50% of people who go
through a traumatic experienceactually come out better on the
other side and I find that veryhopeful because a lot of times
people feel like I'm in such adark place in my life.
How can I ever get past this?
First of all, survive this, butget better through it.
(25:47):
People can't imagine it, but itis actually something that's
feasible and we see it in everyday in our lives, witnessing
people.
People grow and become betterversions of themselves.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
This is such a great to hear.
Honestly, we've never heardthis expression.
And 50%, that's an amazingpercentage.
There is hope, I guess.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
That's interesting.
Post-traumatic growth that's aninteresting term.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Hey, if you have a story to tell, we'd love to have
you on here.
You'll find a safe space oflisteners who can understand
what you're going through.
Just shoot us an email with asummary of your story at info at
halalmatchca.
Do you deal in your line ofwork with widows and widowers?
I do, okay.
(26:34):
So how is it different startingover after losing a spouse?
How is it different fromstarting after?
Speaker 1 (26:42):
divorce.
With divorce there's a lot oftypically very charged, angry,
negative emotion surrounding therelationship, right.
So you look back on themarriage and it's very difficult
to see the good types right,and to see what got you into
(27:04):
that relationship to begin withand everything.
And so trust can be verydifficult to rebuild after a
divorce With a situation whereyou're grieving the death of a
spouse.
It's very, very unique.
It's not like the death ofanybody else in your family.
It's not like the death of aparent, even the death of a
(27:25):
child, right, it changes everysingle aspect of your daily life
and a lot of times one of themost difficult things about
grief after the death of aspouse is that you can only
remember the good.
You only remember the goodthings and you only remember now
the fact that you don't haveany of those good things.
(27:46):
And one of the parts of actuallygoing through the grief process
is when you can acknowledgesome of the difficulties that
were a part of your marriage too, to see that person again as a
human, to see that person as notperfect, and so that helps you
to be able to kind of come toterms with it.
(28:06):
And then also, I think that,avoiding memories.
In the beginning it tends to besomething that a lot of people
struggle with or only living inthe memories and only living in
the memories and only living inthe past.
People have two differentapproaches well, multiple, not
just two, but these are some ofthe common ones that I see.
Different approaches to grief isavoidance of the memories or
(28:28):
only living in the past and inthose memories and really having
difficulty staying present inthe present and looking to the
future.
So, with grief, being able toexplore another relationship,
that after a divorce, there'snot guilt in exploring a new
relationship.
There might be fear,trepidation, trust issues and
(28:50):
things like that, but there'susually not guilt.
But after the death of a spousethere's a lot of guilt because
it makes you feel as though doesthis mean that I no longer miss
this person, that I no longerlove this person, that they were
not really as big of a part ofmy life?
I have to remind myself how bigof a part of my life they were,
(29:11):
and if I move on or moveforward and explore a new
marriage, then am I just leavingthem behind, and so that makes
it a very unique challenge.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
Yeah, going back to what you just said before about
humanizing the deceased spouse,I would imagine that person
trying to start over and getremarried is probably thinking
okay, this next person has tofill the shoes of my previous
spouse, my spouse was thiswonderful person and now, all of
(29:42):
a sudden, maybe they're settingunrealistic expectations of a
new spouse.
Do you see that happening andwhat would you say about that?
Speaker 1 (29:52):
Yeah, absolutely, and that's why a part of the grief
process is going to be to beable to humanize their spouse,
because you can't go into a newrelationship with this idolized
version of what a spouse shouldbe like when, realistically,
even that spouse wasn'tfulfilling that right.
And so part of that process ofknowing that you're ready to
(30:15):
look into another marriage iswhen you're able to acknowledge
some of the problems that youhad in your marriage, some of
the negative times, some of thequalities that you may not have
loved about your spouse, as wellas the qualities that made you
really love them and reallyenjoy your marriage with them.
You have a very uniqueexperience in that, because you
(30:36):
actually have a relationshipthat you felt like was
successful.
But the key is to make surethat you also realize the parts
of it that weren't perfect,because it's already going to be
very difficult if you'reviewing your next marriage as,
like this person has to measureup to my first spouse.
Realize that you are different,so you might need something
(30:59):
different at this stage of yourlife too.
So the idea of holding a newperson to that standard, that
might not be, that's notfeasible number one, and that
might not be what you need atthis point in your life either.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Well, you know, this reminds me of a hadith that came
to my mind while you weretalking, where Aisha radiallahu
anha, one day she got upsetbecause the Prophet alayhi salam
used to compliment Khadijaradiallahu anha and she's like
didn't Allah replace you withsomeone better?
And he started counting her,like complimenting her and
(31:37):
counting her.
What made her special?
So, um, I think I lost thepoint I was going with, honestly
.
But, yeah, yeah, the measuringup, like, um, nobody measured up
, uh, for khadijah, right withthe prophet, yet he was able to
move on on and get again andagain, and again.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
That's a good point.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Yeah, absolutely, and you know, that's the thing is,
everybody has unique qualitiesand they bring unique attributes
to a marriage and to arelationship, right?
And Khadija radhi Allah wasincredibly unique, right?
I love that hadith because itwas a reminder of everything
that she did for him, too, right, where she was the first to
support him at a time where hehad no supporters, and all of
(32:19):
these different things whichshows the.
I look at that hadith also aslook at the impact that being
supportive of your spouse canhave on their feelings towards
you, right, like being a sourceof support, being a source of
strengthening and raising upyour spouse.
And that's the key in anyrelationship.
(32:42):
Losing a spouse to death, evendivorce, is.
You might still have feelingsfor that person, and that's okay
.
This was a relationship thatwas a huge part of your life.
You might still have somefeelings for that person, but
the key is is that are thosefeelings going to get in the way
(33:03):
of a new, a new marriage, right?
So even in the case of divorce,sometimes people will still
have, like you'll remember, youmight remember a good time or
something like that, and the keyin these situations, when you
have this feeling, is transformit into da'at for that person.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Allah.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Subh'anaHu Wa Ta-A'la .
Yeah, like if somebody, if yourspouse, has passed away, that's
a very obvious one.
Those feelings, that's a sign.
I heard a definition of love,uh, that um of grief, that it's
love that has nowhere to goright.
So that's when you feel thatsense of love, that's your sign
to make da'at.
It does in in our faith thatlove has somewhere to go right.
So that's when you feel thatsense of love, that's your sign
to make da'at.
It does in our faith that lovehas somewhere to go and that's
(33:41):
toward da'at.
That's going to weigh on theirscales on the day of judgment.
But even in the case of adivorce, especially if they're
children from this divorce,making da'at for your ex-spouse,
that is also making da'at foryour children, right, because
you want the best for the fatheror mother of your children as
well.
So that's something that can behelpful.
Du'a can be a very powerfultool.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
That's like the epitome of maturity making du'a
to the person you just divorced.
There's supposed to be somehard feelings, but if you're
able to bring yourself and makedu'a for them, that's like
you've made it, I guess, right.
Yeah absolutely Beautiful,beautiful.
How about setting up realisticexpectations after divorce?
(34:25):
Because after divorce, yousuddenly feel that, no, because
my ex was like this, I don'twant this to be in the next one.
They have to be this and thisand this and this.
So how can we set up realisticexpectations?
Speaker 1 (34:37):
one they have to be this and this and this and this.
So how can we set up realisticexpectations?
Yeah, and it's hard, because alot of times, when you're
looking into a new relationship,you're going to see all of the
fears that you have.
You're going to be veryhypervigilant about any sign
that they might have somethingsimilar to your ex and that's
going to either push you away orit's actually going to propel
(34:59):
you toward the relationship,because people tend to fall into
the same patterns, right?
So sometimes it's verydifficult to break the pattern
of finding things attractive,even if they're not healthy,
because they feel familiar.
So it's actually very importantto be aware of the things that
tend to draw you into arelationship and whether those
(35:20):
are the things you actually needand whether they're healthy or
not.
But, yeah, one of the issuescan be that you set unrealistic
expectations because you have togo into a relationship knowing
this person is going to make amistake and not be afraid of the
impact that that mistake canhave on you.
Because the key is, yes,everybody's imperfect, everybody
(35:44):
will make mistakes.
But how is this person going tohandle the mistake?
That's what makes or breaks arelationship, right, how does
the person handle a mistake.
Okay, this person might've, youknow, said something that I
found a little bit hurtful.
Okay, how do they handle it?
How do they handle it when Ibring it up?
Do they dismiss it?
Do they dismiss my emotion, dothey dismiss my concern?
(36:05):
Or do they turn it back onthemselves and say, oh, I
clearly am the bad person here,or whatever, and things like
that.
Maybe this is not going to workand they go to extremes?
Or are they able to say, oh, Ireally didn't intend it like
that.
I'm really sorry.
I'm glad that you told me aboutit.
Is there anything that you needto in this moment?
Is this person also willing?
(36:26):
I think, especially if you'vebeen through a divorce, going
through premarital counseling isreally, really essential.
So are they willing, in thegetting to know each other
process, to work with aprofessional?
Because obviously this is goingto be a situation where there
is naturally going to be baggagethat's coming into the
relationship and so so thathelps also with setting
realistic expectations, becausea third party, an objective
(36:48):
third party, can tell you hey, Ithink that you're being
unrealistic here I remember astory of a client comes to mind
right now where they were likeworking on their marriage and
they decided to go to therapyand the therapist he felt that
the therapist was blaming him aswell.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
His wife was blaming him.
The therapist was blaming himand he felt like he was in the
corner trying to defend himself.
That's unusual for a therapistright.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
I would say so unusual.
Okay, so here's my thing.
I hear that and I think tomyself he might really struggle
with hearing feedback and anytype of feedback that's heard is
interpreted as an attack.
(37:41):
Because a lot of timestherapists are very sensitive
about the way that they presentfeedback right.
They're careful, but somepeople are extremely sensitive
and I've had marriage counselingclients where you know there
was one in particular where Iwere in the couple clients where
you know there was one inparticular where I in the couple
, as long as the focus was onwhat the husband needed to
change and we were kind ofaddressing that, it was fine.
(38:03):
As soon as I turned and startedto talk about the wife's
contribution, the sessions endedlike they wow.
So so it depends right, itdepends on whether a person is
ready for it or not.
Like sometimes, people comeinto marriage counseling
thinking I'm a hundred percentright, I am like, this person
(38:24):
needs to change and that's whywe're here.
And as soon as they realize,wait, I have something to
contribute to.
And here's this objectiveperson really telling me that
here's something I need tochange.
They can't, they can't handleit, they're not ready for that,
and so they didn't come in tochange.
They came in to change theother person and so, no matter
what they hear, it's going to beinterpreted that way as an
attack.
Speaker 3 (38:45):
Interesting, so do they continue with counseling,
or do they kind of run throughthe course or or they start
blaming the therapist.
This therapist doesn't knowwhat she's talking about and
they end blaming the therapist.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
This therapist doesn't know what she's talking
about and they end it rightthere.
It's up to them.
It's up to them Because, also,sometimes the fit, you know, and
I tend to be a little bitcautious too, when you have
Muslim couples come in, I wouldprefer you see a Muslim
counselor, because sometimesthere are misconceptions and a
non-Muslim counselor might verywell side with the woman, right,
(39:17):
because they're going to thinkshe's oppressed, right, like
there's this natural, you know,like feeling, and so actually
the man might be being attacked.
It might not be unbiased.
A therapist is human and theyhave their own biases and that's
why, so I think, being carefulabout the fit, and then I would
also, in those moments I wouldhave encouraged him talk to the
(39:39):
therapist, schedule a one-on-onesession with the therapist to
share what you're feeling, toshare your concern here, and
that they might not beunderstanding your perspective,
and then see what comes from ittoo.
That can actually be really agrowth opportunity in the
therapy.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
Okay, actually be really a growth opportunity in
the therapy.
Okay, speaking of therapy, wasthere like an equivalent to
therapy in our Islamic historyin terms of marriage counseling?
Speaker 1 (40:07):
So there's a verse in the Quran where people are
encouraged, when there is amarital conflict, to seek
advisors, right, one from herfamily, one from his family and
so that was kind of the that'ssomething that was really
encouraged.
These days it's not a lot oftimes, unfortunately, families
are not equipped to be able tohandle it that well, and so a
(40:33):
lot of times it's easier to goto somebody who's going to be
educated about the approachesand things like that.
But it's been a huge part ofour tradition to go to people of
knowledge and wisdom to seekadvice, and so going to people
who have Islamic knowledge, topeople who you know, like this,
is something that is from ourtradition.
People always go to thecompanions for advice obviously
(40:55):
to the Prophet Muhammad, youknow and so seeking advice, the
Prophet says that the deen isnasiha.
The deen, our faith, is goodadvice.
So giving and taking goodadvice is something that's
highly, highly encouraged.
What's different now is that wejust have training programs.
You know, we have trainingprograms for therapy and things
(41:16):
like that, and now,alhamdulillah, we also have
training programs that involveIslamic therapy, so that you
know, you can incorporate theIslamic element, because that's
been missing for a while.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's a verse you specificallymentioned.
You know the beautiful thingabout it is.
It says إِيُّ رِيْدَ إِصْلَاحَيُوَفِّقْ لَهُ بَيْنَهُمَّ.
If these two judges from bothsides want to do islah, want to
mend things, then Allah will puttawfiq in it.
(41:46):
But, like you said today, herfamily take her side, his family
takes his side, and then itgoes from being a problem
between a husband and wife toproblem between two families.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
Unfortunately, yes, and you know, you know like
there are some families wherereally there are people within
the families that are so wisemashallah and are able to really
handle it beautifully.
And so if you know in your ownfamily that you have access to
people like that and that yourspouse has access to people like
(42:16):
that, then great, Right.
But if you don't, you know,then that, and then also
sometimes the issue between thetwo spouses is very personal and
the exposure of those issuescan be difficult.
You don't want to involveanybody that will know this
person for life, right.
(42:36):
And so meeting with somebodywho is completely anonymous, who
has confidentiality as part ofthe rules of their career, can
make people feel a little bitmore comfortable.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
Okay, okay, you mentioned trust a few questions
ago.
How can somebody rebuild trustin a way that's healthy?
They want to protect themselveswe're talking about after
divorce, of course and at thesame time, letting vulnerable,
like being able to be vulnerablewith a new person.
(43:10):
So there's this, like there'smiddle point.
How can they find it?
Speaker 1 (43:16):
And it's again one of the things that takes a lot of
work right.
I think rebuilding trust is oneof the biggest challenges.
Once trust has been broken,it's very difficult to rebuild
it in a relationship, obviously,but also within a person's
heart.
You know, and so the first stepI would say you know the Rasul
sallallahu alayhi wa sallam,when he was asked by a Bed's
(43:37):
heart.
You know, and so the first stepI would say you know the Rasul
sallallahu alayhi wa sallam,when he was asked by a Bedouin I
have this camel, should I tieher or should I trust in Allah
that she's not going to run andjust leave her?
The Prophet sallallahu alayhiwa sallam said you tie your
camel and you trust in Allah.
These are two simultaneousthings, and so building trust is
something that happensinternally, but it's also
(43:59):
something that requires action,and so the first thing is
building trust in Allah.
A lot of times when a person'strust is broken in a
relationship with a person, theyinadvertently put that broken
trust in between them and Allahin their relationship.
Because if this person, who Iwas so close to this, I gave
them my life, they were myspouse, I trusted them with
(44:20):
everything.
If they broke my trust.
Who can I trust?
Sometimes it even results inthem questioning their ability
to trust Allah, and what is sohard about that is that is the
trust you most need at thatpoint to heal, that Allah is the
source of all healing.
He's the source of all peace.
He's As-Salam right.
(44:41):
He's the source of all of thesebeautiful things that we need
the most at these hardest, mostdifficult times in life, and
when a person doesn't have that,that's really difficult.
So that's the first thing Iwould focus on rebuilding your
trust with Allah.
How to do that?
The first thing I would focuson rebuilding your trust with
Allah.
How to do that?
The first that I alwaysencourage is getting to know
Allah.
You can't trust someone youdon't know, and so
(45:05):
reinvigorating your relationshipwith the Quran, with meaning
and understanding and the namesof Allah, delving into the names
of Allah, seeing how theyresonate in your life, how you
see them manifest in your life,and realizing you trust Allah
every single moment, with everysingle breath.
So working on building thattrust with Allah first, and then
(45:25):
, when you are ready to get toknow a new person, you tie your
camel right.
You tie your camel meaning.
How do I get to know this personin a way that I can see if it's
worth my trust.
So you're going to seek advicefrom people who know them.
You're going to seek advicefrom people who know you, where
you're going to share yourexperience.
(45:45):
You're going to have thisperson meet those people as well
.
The judgment call does not onlyneed to be on your shoulders,
and I think that the more thatwe can involve a village for
ourselves, then the more helpfulthat's going to be, because a
lot of times after a divorce theself-doubt creeps in, and if
you have people help you make adecision in a way that feels
(46:09):
comfortable, then it reallyhelps to alleviate some of that
self-doubt.
Speaker 2 (46:14):
Okay, the importance of Shura?
Right, yeah, a story comes tomind.
I'm sorry, zaid, I'm stealingall the questions, but things
are coming to my mind.
So a client.
She was divorced.
We tried to match her withmultiple matches and at the end
of the day we found a person.
We set up a meeting.
(46:35):
They spent three hours togetherand after the meeting I think
she said yes I'm not sure abouther answer, but he said no
because he said she's not ready.
I can see she's not ready?
Yes, and she's like.
I don't want to put her throughsomething similar again.
And so how can somebodyrecognize if they're ready or
(46:58):
not?
Because that girl came to usshe wanted to get married and
she didn't know that she wasn'tready.
Speaker 3 (47:04):
I think, just to add to that, what happened in that
situation was that, from thebrother's feedback, there was a
lot of unloading that happenedduring those three hours.
The first meeting In the firstmeeting she just unloaded all of
her trauma and everything andhe was just like, oh my God.
It just seemed he was a bitoverwhelmed and turned off,
unfortunately, and that's why hemade the decision to not move
(47:25):
forward with that sister.
Speaker 1 (47:28):
That's exactly what I was.
My follow-up to you sharingthis was I was going to ask did
she spend the time venting Rightand so?
Because a lot of times that'san indication that you're not
ready?
I was going to ask did shespend the time venting Right and
so?
Because a lot of times that'san indication that you're not
ready is when you're you, yourdays are spent thinking about
(47:49):
this situation, when it is stilleverything that you live and
breathe, right, where, where is.
I can't believe I remember thatsituation where he said that to
me I can't believe that I amgoing through this and I'm at
this age and I went through amarriage and I'm divorced.
I can't believe that, like thatsituation where he said that
about me or this person, likegoing back and you know,
(48:12):
thinking about all the arguments, thinking about the things that
happen and if it reliving that,that is, that shows that you're
still in the trauma.
You have not healed from thetrauma.
If you are living in that andit's constantly coming up in
your memories, it's normal forit to come up every once in a
while.
You smell a scent scent.
You smell the scent of yourex's cologne, and it brings, of
(48:33):
course, that's going to benormal, right.
You go, you see, you drive pastthe place and you remember
something that you went theretogether at some point.
That's normal right.
These like little things thatbring up memories.
That's to be expected.
But when it's the first thingyou think about when you wake up
, it's the last thing you'rethinking about when you go to
sleep, when you talk to anybodyand you unload, and this has
(48:57):
become your life, where this isall that you're talking about.
That is a very, very clear signthat you're not ready yet.
Speaker 2 (49:23):
I'm thinking about.
Speaker 1 (49:25):
You mentioned before like you differentiated between
regular divorce and divorcebecause of abuse.
Speaker 3 (49:27):
Now I'm thinking of my friend my best friend just
got divorce.
Speaker 1 (49:29):
With or without abuse , there is self-esteem work that
needs to be done, but withabuse it's a lot more, because
abuse and what keeps people inabusive relationships is the
feeling that there's anunderlying feeling of do I
deserve this?
Did I do something that broughtthis upon me?
(49:52):
If I had maybe made sure thatdinner was ready at a certain
time, maybe he wouldn't haveberated me and called me names,
right, I just need to changethat and it'll be better.
I just need to do this andit'll be better.
And so there's this tendency toreally put a lot of
responsibility on your ownshoulders Now once you leave and
(50:16):
you're able to get some spaceand realize.
So actually, a lot of timespeople come into therapy if
they're in abusive relationshipsand they're like, okay, I'm
trying to work on my marriageand everything, and by the end
of therapy they end up gettingdivorced because now they
actually realize that they werein an abusive relationship.
They didn't realize it before,right.
And so once you get, once youare divorced and you're away
(50:39):
from this abusive relationship,you can see it through a more
objective lens and really startto allow it to click, to think,
okay, like it's not normal forsomebody to call somebody names
or curse somebody out becausethey didn't have dinner ready.
It's not normal to feel like,oh, I have to make sure
everything is exactly in theright place before he comes home
(51:00):
from work, otherwise he's goingto be upset.
It's like these things are notnormal.
So first is being able tounderstand what is normal and
what's not normal.
Therapy is a very good placefor that.
So I would recommend that once.
If you have ever been throughan abusive relationship and
that's a traumatic experience,therapy is going to be really,
really important to be able tomove past it.
(51:21):
And then, because that'simportant for self-esteem, work.
You can't work on yourunderstanding of yourself until
you can differentiate what wasokay and what was not okay,
because if you're blamingyourself like just like we
talked about the importance ofaccountability, being overly
accountable for things that areactually not yours to be
accountable for, that can beunhealthy too.
(51:43):
So that helps to piece ittogether.
Speaker 2 (51:46):
Okay, may Allah make it easy for everyone.
Speaker 3 (51:49):
Amen.
Speaker 2 (51:51):
Any last advice for our single listeners who are
starting over again?
Speaker 1 (51:58):
May Allah make it easy for you as you embark on
this journey.
It's definitely a journey.
There's a lot of growth that isneeded, but viewing it not as I
am coming out of a failedrelationship, but more that this
relationship was a steppingstone as a part of my journey
(52:19):
forward and I have learned a lotabout myself.
I have learned a lot about whatI need in a spouse and, even
more importantly, I have alsolearned what I don't need in a
spouse, right?
So you're going in actuallyreally well equipped with more
knowledge of yourself and whatyou're looking for in a
relationship than a lot of otherpeople are going into it with.
And so, using this as a timethis time after a divorce,
(52:42):
before starting to look forsomeone or in the midst of
starting to look for someoneprioritize building a strong
connection with Allah subhanahuwa ta'ala, and prioritize
growing yourself, prioritizebuilding your interests, because
you want to go into thisrelationship as a whole person.
You don't want to go into thisrelationship where I'm trying to
fill this void that's nowmissing because I've been
(53:05):
divorced.
No, I want to be a whole personand I'm going to go into this
relationship to find anotherwhole person so we can build a
relationship together.
Inshallah, may Allah putbarakah in it.
Bless it for all of you who arelooking for a spouse.
May Allah guide you to thespouse who's going to be best
for you and your deen and yourdunya.
Speaker 2 (53:25):
I mean, I think this episode is going to resonate
with a lot of our listeners,like we get and we know that a
lot of listeners are startingover.
We hear a lot of stories.
So I think you've done aphenomenal work, mashallah, and
we'd love to have you againmaybe in the future to discuss
other topics, if you're open toit.
Speaker 1 (53:46):
Absolutely.
Jazakumullah khair for havingme.
It was a pleasure speaking withboth of you.
Jazakumullah khair for havingme.
It was a pleasure speaking withboth of you.
Jazakumullah khair.
Speaker 3 (53:52):
So if anybody is seeking help, seeking
professional help, how can theyget in touch with you?
And just to confirm you dooffer virtual counseling,
correct Texas?
Speaker 1 (54:00):
because that's where I'm licensed and right now I'm
not taking on new clientsbecause I'm at capacity, but
feel free to email me at therapyat sarahsultancom and I will be
happy to provide you with alist of referrals.
There are a ton of Muslim,wonderful Muslim counselors out
(54:22):
there, mashallah.
I'm happy to help you findsomebody who will be a good
match for you in this journey.
And if you want just you knowinformation or posts and things
like that, my Instagram.
I post on there.
Sometimes I'm not veryconsistent, but that's Sana
Sultan Therapy on Instagram.
Speaker 2 (54:40):
Inshallah, we will link your email, your Instagram.
Thank you again, jazakumullahkhair, thank you to our
beautiful listeners and we willsee you in the next one,
assalamualaikum.
Speaker 1 (54:51):
Waalaikumussalam.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Cold Case Files: Miami
Joyce Sapp, 76; Bryan Herrera, 16; and Laurance Webb, 32—three Miami residents whose lives were stolen in brutal, unsolved homicides. Cold Case Files: Miami follows award‑winning radio host and City of Miami Police reserve officer Enrique Santos as he partners with the department’s Cold Case Homicide Unit, determined family members, and the advocates who spend their lives fighting for justice for the victims who can no longer fight for themselves.