This Could Save Your Marriage Before It Starts w/ Hina Mirza

Most couples obsess over the wedding details: venues, flowers, guest lists... but skip the one step that actually prepares you for marriage. We know because we skipped it too. And trust us, it’s a mistake we don't want you to make.

Today we sit down with psychotherapist Hina Mirza to uncover why premarital counseling isn’t some boring checklist, it’s the ultimate hack for a smoother, happier marriage. Think of it as marriage prep you’ll actually enjoy: decoding communication, spotting blind spots, and setting up love to last. If you think you know what premarital counseling is, think again. This is the one thing EVERY couple needs before saying “I do.”

Connect with Hina on Instagram at @hinamirza.

If something we said made you think, laugh, or feel seen, leave us a rating and review! It helps more people find the show. And hey, if you know someone who needs to hear this episode, send it their way. Sharing is caring!

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Asalamu alaikum.
I'm Hiba.

SPEAKER_01 (00:02):
And I'm Zayd.

SPEAKER_02 (00:03):
You're listening to Diary of a Matchmaker.

SPEAKER_01 (00:05):
A podcast that will take you into our world as
matchmakers.

SPEAKER_02 (00:09):
We'll share our experiences and offer advice for
the single Muslim.

SPEAKER_01 (00:12):
So let's dive in.
Bismillah.
Alright, Rabbi Shahli SadhariWassili Amri wahla al Aktam
Millisani of Kahu Kauli.
Welcome everyone to anotherepisode of Diary of a
Matchmaker.
I'm Zayd, and on the other micis my wife and co-host Hibba.
We are lucky and honored to havea guest by the name of Sister

(00:34):
Hina Mirza, who is a psychoregistered psychotherapist with
over 20 years of experience.
She has a master's in psychologywith a focus on premarital
counseling and couples therapy.
As a therapist, she frames hertreatment planning with cultural
sensitivity, religious values,and an awareness of individual

(00:56):
needs.
So thank you for coming onto thepodcast.
So premarital counseling,needless to say, is a hot topic
these days.
And uh when I think back as towhen I was getting married, and
alhamdulillah, we've beenmarried for about more than five
years now.

(01:16):
I didn't really hear much aboutit.
There wasn't much discussion.
And now I'm seeing that somescholars won't even conduct a
niqah without it.
Some have their own premaritalseminars or online courses.
So why do you think it'ssuddenly everywhere?
And is it coming out of a crisisthat we're seeing with Muslims
or what's going on?

SPEAKER_00 (01:36):
So Basilla rahman, rahim as a sadam, and
Rasulullah.
Um, a little bit of both say.
So one of the things that hasdefinitely shifted the tide is
our comfort in havingconversation around marriage and
relationships and familial life.
Um, a lot of the times you wouldnotice that, you know, in our

(01:57):
khutbas, in our talks, aroundconferences, and just the
general where the public isconsuming knowledge and
information, these topics werenot discussed.
People would not want to talkabout relationships and love and
marriage and being a certain wayto your spouse or being a
certain way in your home.
And then I'm gonna say, I'mgonna go out there and say about

(02:19):
10 years ago, the tide startedshifting.
And I think it is uh all creditdoes go to a lot of the imams
who started bringing this up inJummachutbaz.
You know, they really startedtalking about family life and
the value and the importance ofrelationships with each other.
And all of a sudden thelandscape shifts.

(02:39):
Now, the other part of what youjust said that is it becoming
out of a crisis?
Partly, yes.
We're noticing that divorcerates are really high, people
are really struggling in theirrelationships, marital
dissatisfaction is um on therise.
So it now it becomes a relevantconversation that if this is an
existing problem, how are wegonna fix it?

(03:00):
And the number one solution iseducate yourself, much like
anything else in life, right?
Like if you're confused,uncertain, uh knowing of
something, then just learn moreabout it.
And then alhamdulillah, youknow, I'm gonna say that
simultaneously the mental healthscene for Muslims also started
rising, and it allowed us toreally do a lot of research on
what's happening in our homesand what are the crises and

(03:23):
what's causing problems.
And then alhamdulillah, theyboth came together really well
because then the solution waslet's offer marital education to
younger couples and almost asthough to plan better for their
relationship.
And then, alhamdulillah, whenthose doors opened, you know,
the more time we have, the moreresearch we have, the more

(03:43):
opportunity to learn from ourown teaching, it just became a
phenomenon.
And then now, alhamdulillah, allmajor organizations and
platforms, uh, Muslimorganizations and platforms
offer some form of maritallearning, marital courses.
Uh, imams are offering training,there's therapists that do
premarital counseling.
So it's just become very easy toaccess now.

(04:04):
And I'm gonna say that one lastthing about this is that people
have become very embracing oftheir therapeutic journey.
Because initially, um, you know,10 years ago, if somebody was
gonna go to therapy for marriagecounseling or even premarriage
counseling, it was almost like ashameful thing to discuss and
talk about.
But subhanAllah, now people, Imean, like I have people who

(04:25):
will tag me on Instagram that,you know, attending premarriage
counseling at Hena Mirza, andI'm like, oh, okay, this is a
thing now.
It's become kind of cool.
It's become kind of trendy to goin and uh get premarriage
counseling.
So Alhamdulillah normalizing ithas made such a difference.

SPEAKER_02 (04:41):
That's amazing.
I think uh like therapy ingeneral, and like you said,
mental health in general, um,like has witnessed a huge shift.
Uh is it something like we'repicking up from like non-Muslims
or what?

SPEAKER_00 (04:54):
Well, actually, no.
The concept of nasiha in Islam,the concept of seeking counsel,
or the concept of uh gettingshura or advice, or just you
know, turning to somebody thatyou love that matters to you,
that values, and of course aperson of knowledge, you know,
like a person of soundknowledge, this has been part of
the Islamic tradition since thevery beginning.

(05:15):
So definitely not a Westernconcept, but in fact, um, and
you know, something to keep inmind that secular counseling
actually doesn't work forMuslims because the way we are
and the way we're designed, youcan't take the Islam out of us.
So even when it comes toconcepts like premarriage
counseling, you can't go andattend premarriage counseling
without incorporating Islam intoit because a big part of who we

(05:39):
are and our belief system andthe way that we engage with our
partners and our family membersand our parents, a lot of it is
rooted deeply in Islamic beliefsand values.
So you can't separate the two.
But I would like to say thoughthat uh Islam is the OG founder
of premarital counseling becauseAllah subhanahu wa ta'ala has

(05:59):
introduced so many concepts inthe Quran to us about our rights
and responsibilities.
And then the Prophet, throughhis actions and behaviors within
his home and his instruction tothe sahabas, has really taught
us a lot about what ourmannerisms should be as husband
and wife and in a relationship.
So yeah, I'm not gonna letanybody else take credit for

(06:20):
Hamas.
Alhamdulillah, this is a veryIslamic thing.
Alhamdulillah, alhamdulillah.

SPEAKER_02 (06:25):
Do you think every couple needs therapy?
Not therapy, every couple needpremarital counseling, or can
some couples actually afford notto?

SPEAKER_00 (06:34):
Okay, hiba, let's just go with the slip of the
tongue there.
Does every couple need therapy?
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (06:39):
One person.

SPEAKER_00 (06:40):
And I'm not I'm not saying this because I'm a
therapist and I'm like, yeah,every couple needs therapy.
Um, it's just the way that weare in the world today.
The world has evolved.
Relationships have evolved.
They're not simple and straightanymore.
There's so many things and somany influences and so many
complications in our lives thatbasically what therapy does is

(07:03):
it declutters the emotion inyour marriage.
Imagine not ever clearing up orcleaning up your house.
Just imagine every single day,you know, garbage is gathering,
the dishes are gathering, thelaundry is piling up, and you're
just kind of like, I don't needto do it.
I've got more clothes in thecloset, I've I've got more
dishes in the cupboard, or, youknow, I mean, just continuously

(07:26):
creating more and more and morewaste and garbage in your home,
but never clearing it out.

SPEAKER_02 (07:32):
Hmm.

SPEAKER_00 (07:33):
That's a nice metaphor.
It's all gonna catch up one day.
And when it does, it's gonna bean overwhelming task that you
might not even want to take on.
And this and psychologically youmight say, you know what, let's
just move.
Let's just get out of here.
Like, let's just let's justleave this because it's too much
of a mess.
And I don't think we can handleit, or I don't think we can
create it.
And what I want you to kind ofvisualize in your head is 10

(07:55):
years of cluttering your homewith garbage, 15 years of
cluttering your home, not just aweek or not just a couple of
days.
I'm talking years and years ofcluttering your home with
garbage.
Eventually, you're not gonna beable to physically live there
anymore.
It's gonna become unlivable foryou.
So when we talk aboutnormalizing therapy, what it

(08:16):
does is it just helps you clearout the emotional clutter.
So as often as you're clearingyour home, you're throwing away
garbage, it's important to havesome form of guided check-in or
some form of instruction.
Now, don't get me wrong, youknow, hopefully we're all
throwing our garbage outregularly and cleaning
regularly.
You do not have to be in therapythat regularly.

(08:38):
If you're a healthy, functionalcouple, a once-a-month check-in
is plenty.
It's more than enough.
And then if you're working witha therapist that gives you
tools, then you will haveregular weekly check-ins with
your partner, daily points ofconnection with your partner.
So it's basically just imaginerelationship hygiene.
You want to stay healthy, youwant to stay, keep the
relationship productive, clean,meaningful.

(09:01):
Um, you need therapy.
You need a place to be able toclear out the clutter.
And then, of course, you've gotthat, you know, you've got that
appointment once a month that ifyou come across a roadblock or
something that gets in the wayand you're not able to take care
of it or solve it at home, thenyou've always got a place to go
and unpack it before it gets tooaccumulated or you know, before
it gets too late.

SPEAKER_02 (09:22):
The thing is, what if you don't realize you don't
know actually that you live in acluttered home?
Like I'm just thinking aboutZayn Zayd and me.
We've like, like I said, when wegot married, we didn't do
premarital counseling, we'venever done any type of therapy.
And um like I think we have ahealthy relationship.
I'm afraid we have our ups anddowns.

SPEAKER_01 (09:43):
Let's be honest.

SPEAKER_00 (09:43):
I'm afraid, I'm afraid if we go and do therapy,
we're gonna discover so much wedidn't know.
I love it.
I'm so glad you asked me thisbecause a lot of the times you
and is this is such a genuine,honest question.
A lot of the times couples areafraid to go because they don't
want to know what lies beneaththe surface.
Everything looks good.

(10:04):
You know, if it ain't broken, gofix it.
And so I I like that approach.
I definitely like it.
Um, however, here's the problemwhen couples come in for
counseling, they always come inwith problems.
It's very rare, if notimpossible, to have a couple
like you guys come in and say,everything is great, but we came

(10:26):
in anyways.
Okay.
A lot of the times couples willcome in for counseling because
there's something wrong.
And when there's somethingwrong, that means there's a fire
that we have to put out.
So we spend a lot of time, a lotof our energy, a lot of our
attention just putting out thatfire.
And it does become almost like aPandora's box that you know

(10:47):
sorry again.
This part I did not factor in.
The uh, you know, like whenyou're starting a car and it
needs to warm up a little bit,and then you're like, okay, we
can't drive out just yet.
We gotta let the engine run fora bit.
I think it gives away my agethat you gotta let the engine
run a bit.
I should have been up at sixo'clock in the morning trying to
get the engine going.
Alhamdulillah.

SPEAKER_02 (11:07):
We were actually when we read that you have 20
years of um uh experience, we'relike, mashallah, how old is she?
She looks so young.

SPEAKER_00 (11:16):
Uh so let me just clarify counseling is a second
career for me.
20 years ago, I was in writingand publishing and I was working
as an educator on parenting, andthen it sort of segued into
therapy, alhamdulillah.
But um, okay, so just comingback to that concept that if a
couple is coming into therapywith clutter, it's about that my

(11:37):
attention, energy, and focus ison helping them with that
particular problem.
But interestingly enough, theproblem does not exist because
it stands alone, the problemexists because there is a
unhealthy pattern.
The couple has certain, like,you know, for example, there
might be some anxiety, theremight be some fears, there might
be some limitations.
So there's an unhealthyunderlying problem that keeps

(12:01):
popping up in the marriage, andit looks like we're having
different fights, but usuallywe're not.
So it really helps uncover a lotof things that have been long
standing in the relationship.
Um, I will say though, however,marriage counseling, even if
you're not going into atherapist's office to discuss
anything, marriage counseling,pre-marriage counseling is a lot

(12:24):
about information gaining.
And that's something that weshould always be doing.
You know, like when we're taughtin as Muslims to seek out
knowledge from cradle to grave,we're encouraged to learn.
Allah subhanahu wa ta'alateaches us over and over again
the value of education andlearning and expanding our mind.
That obviously aligns withmarriage as well.
Why would you leave yourmarriage unattended and learn so

(12:47):
many other things?
It makes a very healthy marriagewhen two people are working
towards the same goal and wantto educate themselves around it,
you know, like learn moreskills, learn more tools, attend
classes, and then, you know,allow themselves the permission
to say maybe things could bebetter, and then working towards
whatever that better means tothem.

SPEAKER_01 (13:08):
Um, I like what you said earlier, which is there is
an openness and kind ofreceptiveness towards premarital
counseling, I'd say more so thanour parents' generation and our
parents' parents' generation.
So do you feel like people arestill approaching it with the
same attitude that they approachexams or jobs or even buying a

(13:28):
house that they're preparing itfor it that way, or there's
still a lot of um work to bedone?

SPEAKER_00 (13:35):
You know, if you had asked me this question five
years ago, I would have said toyou that we still have a long
way to go.
You know, people are notattending pre-marriage
counseling as much as theyshould.
Even today, there are stilllimitations.
There aren't people are notprioritizing it, which if you
ask me, I don't get it.
I just I don't understand whysomebody wouldn't prioritize

(13:57):
marriage counseling.
I I see people spending hundredsand thousands of dollars on the
wedding itself, on flowers andclothing and food, and you know,
just making that evening lookmagical and memorable.
But then what happens after?
And you know, it's reallyinteresting because when we uh,
you know, with a lot of mycouples, when we're in

(14:18):
pre-marriage counseling, one ofthe things that I tell them is a
lot of couples get into seriousfights at their honeymoon.
Oh, wow.
Yeah.
And we don't realize it that,you know, during the time of the
wedding, we're just holding alot of emotion because it's a
very emotional time.
It's not just the function andmaking sure everything goes

(14:38):
right, it's an emotionaltransition for us as well, both
for men and women.
So your brain and your body andyour heart, everything is going
into this tumultuous week-longcelebration where you're
essentially in our culture putup on display with all these
expectations of smiling andphotographs and entrances, and

(14:59):
it takes a huge toll.
It takes a huge toll because, inthe background, in the back of
your mind, you've got runningexpectations, fears, you know,
what's gonna happen after themarriage, and you're not
prepared for it.
So you've never had theseconversations.
Um, and you're in this weeklongfestival, and when you come out
of it, your nervous system iswrecked.

(15:21):
And so the minute somethinghappens, it's kind of like
imagine holding everything inlike that, and then all of a
sudden letting go.
And when you let go, you're atyour honeymoon, and something
very slight happens.
One or both partners will justhave this explosive anger
situation, walk away from oneanother, and this is the painful

(15:44):
part that your brain remembersemotions and feelings.
Okay, human beings don'tremember facts as much as they
remember feelings.
So, whenever you think of yourhoneymoon, you'll think of that
argument, you'll think of thatfight.
And I it just breaks my heart tothink that this is, you know, I

(16:05):
mean, the wedding is a beautifulthing, and inshallah, if you
can, you know, celebrate the waythat you want, inshallah, as
long as it's halal.
But your honeymoon is whereyou're actually together.
If you guys are you're going onone, or even in the first week
of marriage, even if you're notgoing on a trip.
That early stage of marriage,this is the first time you're
together.
It's such a beautifulexperience.
And a lot of couples will traceback to that early few days of

(16:28):
marriage, and they will rememberan ugly fight, they'll remember
abandonment, they will rememberneglect, they will remember
feeling lonely and isolated andnot like disconnected from their
partner, and that's thefoundation that they put in
their marriage.
It's a very scary thing becauseguess what happens?

(16:50):
Every single time that negativeemotion comes back up in the
marriage, it literally yanks youfrom the beginning, the day
early stages, all the way tonow, and it pulls with it that
same emotion and it feelsoverwhelming and it feels like
you're gonna drown in it.
So, premarriage counseling, weactually prepare you for this.

(17:10):
We prepare you for wedding week.
We I talk to you about what'sgonna happen, what are the ways
you're gonna keep your emotionsin check, what are the ways that
you're gonna allow yourself somecognitive closure, leaving your
parents' home or leaving yourfamily and moving into a new
home and the transition thatit's got you're gonna
experience.
We talk about all of it becauseit's not just about
communication and conflictresolution, it's a lot about

(17:33):
self-regulation, about managingyour own feelings and your own
emotions, not just through thewedding, but then how it
translates to after marriage andthen being newlyweds and then
inshallah, so on and so forth.

SPEAKER_01 (17:45):
You know, we actually dedicated a video about
the topic of the honeymoon.
Ahibba and I we got married justa few months before COVID hit,
and due to circumstance, we hadto delay our honeymoon, and then
we didn't end up going on ourhoneymoon until just last year,
actually.
And um, and one of the videos weshared is just that suggesting

(18:05):
or advising people to delaytheir honeymoon.
There's no reason you need tohave it like the moment you get
married, put it off for a littlebit, make sure you have the the
financial means to do it.
Like you said, it's a bitoverwhelming during that first
week.
So there's just something tokeep in mind.

SPEAKER_02 (18:22):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But let's be a little bit morepractical.
So I like that you gave us aglimpse of what's like uh what
to expect in uh premaritalcounseling, but give us a like
walk us through it.
There's this couple, they'reengaged, uh, their wedding is in
two months, and they come toyou.
What happens?

SPEAKER_00 (18:41):
Okay, so Hiba, believe it or not, uh there's
actually something calledcompatibility counseling that I
do as well.
Compatibility counseling is whenyou're just in the talking
stages and you're not reallysure whether this is the right
person for me or not.
And what compatibilitycounseling is the first module
of premarital counseling,anyways.
So it's not uh separate fromthat.

(19:03):
But what happens is that whenyou're very early on and you're
still like, oh, not sure, isthis the one?
Is this not the one?
When you come in forcompatibility counseling, and
here's a couple of things I'lllay out what's gonna happen.
I'm going to start bringing upyour, or we're gonna actually
start exploring each other'sblueprint, that initial
emotional blueprint.
What are the person's strengths?

(19:24):
What are the person's weaknessesand challenges that they face?
What are their values in life?
What are their fears in life?
And then we're gonna discoverand talk a little bit about
their emotional triggers andbehavioral reactions to those
triggers.
Now, unlike what it sounds likein compatibility counseling, I
don't give you a green checkmark or a red X to say, yes,

(19:46):
you're good to get married, andno, you can't get married.
That's not what happens.
Basically, what it allows thecouple to do is to really learn
about themselves and learn abouttheir partner at a very intimate
level that usually is not a partof those lists of questions that
are offered that couples canask.
And it opens up dialogue andconversation between them as

(20:07):
well in a safe setting.
So it's not awkward anduncomfortable, and it's a guided
conversation with me as atherapist.
At the end of compatibilitycounseling, the couple now knows
about themselves from a verydifferent perspective and it
allows them to make a moreinformed decision.
I will bring it up, for example,if there are opposing values, I

(20:29):
will bring it up to them.
If one person's strengthscontradict another person's
strengths, like they they bothseem to be very headstrong, you
know, both are alphas.
If somebody's uh weaknesses andfears are clashing, I will make
sure that I point that out tothem.
I show that to them.
Then, for example, when we talkabout trigger responses, we the

(20:53):
general four are fight, flight,freeze, and fawn.
I will help each other, like thepartners understand this is your
partner's go-to space when theyget triggered.
Now imagine if somebody who is afighter, a pursuer, and wants to
have the conversation getsmarried to a flight, somebody
who runs away and wants to justclear their head and doesn't

(21:15):
want to argue and doesn't wantto fight, this person is gonna
feel overwhelmed and this personis gonna feel abandoned.
And so we want to make sure thatyou know what you're getting
into.
It's just being more informed.
The decision is, of course,still yours, inshallah.
You make it with the best ofintention, with the guidance of
Allah subhanahu wa ta'alathrough your istiharah, you
include your parents, youinclude your loved ones, the

(21:37):
ones who are part of yourdecision-making process.
All of that still remains, butit just allows you to understand
what you're getting married to,what you're getting married
into.
And so then I can help if youdecide to pursue premarital
counseling, I can help younavigate those tools and say,
okay, well, when you or yourpartner goes into flight mode,

(21:58):
how do you handle it?
When your partner getstriggered, how do you handle it?
Just so that you're more in syncwith each other rather than, you
know, when conflict actuallyarises, it leaves us feeling
lonely and vulnerable.
Instead of that, it allowsconflict actually becomes a
means for connection.
But compatibility counseling isa starting point that gives you

(22:19):
that sense of direction that isthis person a good fit?
Like, am I ready to take thison?
So the first module is alwaysabout self-reflection,
self-regulation, andself-awareness.
Teaches you about yourself andthen teaches you about your
partner.
The second module that I alwaystalk about is healthy
attachment.
Then, yes, there is unhealthyattachment, you know, love

(22:41):
bombing and being overlycodependent and so on and so
forth.
So we talk about healthyattachment, being able to give
your partner space, being ableto incorporate their parents,
their family into the biggerpicture, you know, just being
able to understand that peoplehave hobbies and sports that
they are a part of and they haverelationships with other friends

(23:01):
and so on and so forth.
So, how do you navigate that?
How do you create healthyattachment with one another,
building that base whileallowing space for life to be a
part of, you know, like the lifejourney to continue?
And in that, yes, the emphasisis that in the beginning of your
marriage, you really do have topour into that relationship.
It's not your life will not looklike it was before, and then

(23:25):
just be like, yeah, in my sparetime, I'll be a husband.
It's not, it's not like that,but just definitely helping
people understand how tonavigate healthy attachment.
Then I talk about communication,learning how to express needs,
learning how to communicate,have conversations that might
seemingly seem difficult.
What are the best ways to havethose conversations?

(23:45):
And what are it's like again,I'll go back to that statement I
made earlier.
Part of relationship hygiene isconsistent open communication
with each other.
So creating patterns in yourmarriage for that conversation
to happen.
Then I talk about conflictresolution.
Conflict resolution isabsolutely imperative because
everybody fights, everybodyfights.

(24:09):
But you know, something that'simportant to remember is
conflict does not have to breakthe relationship.
It does not have to fracture youin a way that it feels hard to
repair again.
Conflict can actually sometimesbe a beautiful means of
connection.
So I have this foolproof planthat I introduce to people.
I use it in my marriage,although it's so difficult to
put into practice.

(24:30):
But I will teach you the skillsof how to navigate conflict, how
to navigate when one person ishurt, the other is not, when
both people are hurt, how do youwork through that?
And then finally, the lastmodule that I work on is
decision making.
Because as a couple, you areconstantly making choices,
whether you know it's about whatare we eating Friday night or

(24:52):
whose house are we gonna go toon Sunday?
Are we gonna visit are myparents on Eid morning or E
afternoon?
And when are we doing visitingyour parents?
When are we having a baby?
Are we gonna buy?
Are we gonna rent?
Are we gonna invest in the stockmarket?
Are we buying shares or realestate?
You know, there's so manydecisions that a couple is
consistently going through, andthere needs to be a hierarchy

(25:15):
and a model of that decisionmaking put into place so that
every decision doesn't turn intoa conflict and so on and so
forth.
So that over that's just kind oflike an overview of what
actually happens in couplescounseling.
But then after that, Idefinitely because I work with
couples one-on-one, I don't docourses uh in bulk.
So I do uh when I'm working withthem one-on-one, it then it

(25:37):
leaves time and space for themto personalize it for
themselves.
You know, if they have personalissues, for example, if uh
they're gonna be co-inhabitingwith parents, or if they are a
blended family, one of them hasbeen divorced, if there's a
child in the mix.
So a lot of the times people canthen use utilize therapy as a
means to really just bring uptheir own personal story, and

(25:58):
then inshallah I can take itfrom there.

SPEAKER_02 (26:01):
A lot to unpack.

SPEAKER_01 (26:02):
A lot to unpack.
Um, there's one thing that comesto my hiba and I were just
talking about this, I thinkabout a week ago, and um, which
is people sometimes taking thesethings to the extreme.
What do I mean by that?
What I mean is let's takeattachment styles, and people
just come in with this approach,thinking that, oh, this person
does not have the attachmentstyle that I'm looking for,

(26:23):
therefore they're notcompatible, or this person
doesn't have the personality,personality type that I'm
looking for, therefore they'renot gonna work.
And so we just write people offon these terms that we don't
fully understand, and we justcomplicate the search for
marriage more so than our generour older parents, because our
parents had it so much easier toan extent, and they weren't

(26:44):
thinking about these things,right?
And they were just like, oh, theperson's that comes from a good
family, let's get them married.
But we sometimes take thesethings to an extreme, I think,
and we complicate our search.
You think there's some truth tothat or not?

SPEAKER_00 (26:58):
So too much information and too much digging
and too much um, you know,trying to see and solve
everything can also be aproblem.
Uh, there has to be an elementof tawko, there has to be an
element of surrender, there hasto be an element of trust.
Uh, you can do your homework,but don't overdo it.

(27:20):
You know how, like they say,moderation is key.
It's important to understandthat yes, you need to cover
certain elements to make surethat you are educated,
knowledgeable.
But remember, these are skillbuilding.
This is not about what I candiscover that's gonna make this
person incompatible.
It's like I'm almost looking fora reason to say no.
That's not what it should be.
It should be about let me, youknow how I mentioned

(27:42):
incompatibility counseling?
That it's not about whether thisperson's good or not.
It's about whether I am able totake this on or not.
And so if that's the approachthat we're gonna go with, that
compatibility counseling isgonna teach me what I'm signing
up for, then I think all theother skills, everything else

(28:02):
that we talk about, everythingelse that we learn as in lieu of
therapy, is just to open our ownminds and expand our own minds,
not to look for flaws in theother person.
Because yes, if you startdigging, of course you're gonna
find problems in a person, andthen nobody is gonna be good
enough and everybody willeventually be single.

SPEAKER_02 (28:19):
Yeah, yeah.
I especially like uh what youmentioned about compatibility
counseling.
Like we spoke to a lot oftherapists and counselors.
I've never heard this before.
Do you notice that people reallyneed it or can they do the work
on their own?

SPEAKER_00 (28:35):
As long as you're doing the work.
I think that's the mostimportant thing.
If you have somebody, it's Imean, think of it like this
self-learning modules andlearning from online and
learning in person with ateacher.
Everybody is a different stylelearner, but the most important
thing is just learn.
Don't get into this without anypreparation or any um, you know,

(28:57):
just without without trying toset yourself off right.
Don't don't even attempt itbecause why would you know?
I mean, I I spoke about this atanother in another space before
as well.
And I said this that in thepast, seeking knowledge required
traveling for months to findthat scholar or that person of
knowledge who could help you.

(29:18):
Now you don't have that excuse.
You've got knowledge on yourphone, in your hands, on your
laptop, podcasts, YouTubevideos, e-learning.
We don't have an excuse anymoreto say that why we're not
pursuing knowledge or why we'renot learning and why we're not
educating ourselves aboutsomething.
So I just feel like it's justeasier now.

(29:40):
It's easier, it's accessible.
It wouldn't make any sense to metoday if somebody gets married
and says we didn't attempt anyform of premarriage counseling.
Yeah, that doesn't make sense.

SPEAKER_02 (29:53):
Wow, I guess that we got lucky.
Yeah, we did.
But no, honestly, the more likeyou were talking about what you
discussed.
And premarital counseling, I'mlike, we sure like we could have
really used that.
Like yeah, it just seems likeit's very, very much needed.
And uh just wanted to ask so outof these three topics, uh money,

(30:16):
in-laws and intimacy, which onedo you feel it's harder for
couples to discuss and they needthe most?

SPEAKER_00 (30:24):
Which is the hardest to discuss?
In-laws.
Because it's it's like it's likewalking into landmine territory.
Because if you I mean,essentially the conversation is
about the other person's family.
So if you're talking about yourmother-in-law and her behaviors
and challenges, you're actuallytalking about the other guy's

(30:46):
mom.
And it's a very delicateconversation to navigate.
It's a very delicateconversation because it's highly
emotionally triggering.
And everybody is protective oftheir family, everybody is
protective of their parents.
When it comes to conversationaround money, I feel like it can
actually uh very strategicallybe handled very logically.

(31:09):
Uh, you know, you can approachit very logically, you can
divide depending on uh incomeand so on and so forth, and you
know, what the approach thecouple wants to take and what
lifestyle they're aiming tolive.
I feel like you can stay verylogical when it comes to a
financial conversation.
Intimacy for a couple is a veryexciting adventure.
They're very, they're kind oflike giggly and laughing about

(31:32):
it, but you know, they're veryopen to, okay, well, what do you
have to say?
And okay, what can we do?
So it's almost as though it's avery inquisitive topic that I
you know, we we are we are notentirely 100% comfortable, but
we're still um excited andinterested.
But when it comes to in-laws,it's a landmine because you kind
of gotta be like, I don't knowwhere I'm walking, what's gonna

(31:54):
set what off.
And again, as I said, it's sucha heavily emotional topic that
sometimes it results in, youknow, is it me or is it your
family?
And you know, obviously that isa question we should never ask.

SPEAKER_01 (32:08):
I was not expecting that.

SPEAKER_02 (32:10):
I was sure you were gonna see intimacy on the
street.

SPEAKER_01 (32:12):
I was thinking the same thing, yeah.
Uh, and I'm sure it gets moresensitive if the plan is for the
girl to move into the parents'house or the guy's the guy's
parents.

SPEAKER_00 (32:23):
Oh yes.
Oh, oh yes, and you know,because of the economy today, a
lot of young couples areactually unable to afford their
own space and they have to startoff whether they live in a
basement or whether they live inthe uh you know in the family
home.
A lot of couples are having tosay to you know, make this

(32:44):
decision that let's save for acouple of years so then we can
get our own place or whatnot.
And this is a very real outcomein a lot of marriages.
So, yes, absolutely.
This conversation aroundboundaries, the conversation
about being comfortable around,you know, brother-in-laws or
other sister-in-laws andwhatnot, it's it's a very
serious one and it's veryuncomfortable because you don't

(33:07):
know what's gonna trigger yourpartner or set them off, or you
know, if you are trying toexpress a need, how that need
will be received.
So it becomes very, verydifficult to have that
conversation.

SPEAKER_02 (33:19):
Wow, I I want to go back to something you mentioned
before, trust.
You mentioned trust, like youhave to have uh tawakal and
trust.
Now, something we keep comingacross while working with single
Muslims is this sense thatthere's lack of trust.
Like, of course, you don't knowthe other person yet, so you
can't fully trust them, butstill they're like trying.

(33:39):
I need to protect myself interms of like I need to have my
own uh my own savings, my ownbank account because I don't
know what's gonna happen.
I need to protect myself.
So, is this healthy or is thisreasonable?

SPEAKER_00 (33:53):
What do you think?
It's an unfortunate reality, andI wish I could be idealistic and
say to you, Hiba, no, everythingis great, everybody is fine, you
should put 100% trust in yourpartner.
But the more I'm seeing in ourcommunities, the amount of lying
and the amount of deception thatis out there, um, and I want to

(34:18):
I want to approach this verytactfully because ultimately it
is the way of Islam that wefollow.
So I'm not, I cannot bypassthat.
I cannot say to you that yes,you know, everybody do your own
money and so on and so forth.
Islam has put certain thingsinto place with purpose and with
reason.
And as Muslims, we honor thatand we abide by it, like we live

(34:39):
by it.
So, for example, for a man toprovide for his home, for a man
to take care of his family,that's a very important uh
responsibility that Allahsubhanahu wa ta'ala has put upon
the man, but also has made itrewarding for him.
So when men spend in their home,Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala in
return puts barakah in theirwealth.
When they don't spend in theirhome, well, you know, the

(35:00):
barakah factor is not a tangiblething because, you know, as
Muslims, we know that a hundreddoes not equal a hundred, a
hundred equals whatever Allahsubhanahu wa ta'ala wants it to
equal.
So when it comes to thesematters of, you know, can I
trust my partner?
I would say that try to buildyour marriage as closely to what

(35:21):
the Prophet and Allah haveinstructed us to, like as
closely as we have been taughtto do so, because there is a lot
of barakah in following thatmodel.
Now, outside of that, havingsavings as a woman to protect
yourself, having an income orwhatnot, that can be something
that is a very privateconversation between the couple.

(35:44):
Uh, I don't think it's the samefor everybody, but I do want to
say that trust is something thatis built not just on finances
and household responsibility,but it is the connection of the
heart.
Trust is built when there isreliance.
Can I count on you?
Are you gonna be there for me?
Not just financially, not justphysically, but emotionally.

(36:07):
Are you gonna show up when I'mhurting?
Are you gonna be able to pick meup if I fall down?
And those are the things thatreally contribute to trust
building as well.
So, yes, you know, tie yourcamel if you have uh uncertainty
in your life, if you don't havea fallback plan, it doesn't hurt
to have savings, and it doesn'thurt to have protection in the

(36:29):
but at the same time, my numberone go-to is please try to live
and abide by the Sunnah of theProphet and follow the teachings
of the Prop Rasulullah.
That will that will take you alot further in your marriage, in
your relationship, in trustbuilding and then reliance on
one another more than anythingelse will.

SPEAKER_01 (36:50):
Um, I want to touch upon parents a little bit and
the role that they play, becausesometimes I feel like parents
might come in thinking thatseeking premarital counseling
might undermine their role as ifcouples are outsourcing advice
that they should be getting fromfamily.
So have you run into anysituations where there's been
resistance from parents or acertain aversion towards seeking

(37:13):
premarital counseling?

SPEAKER_00 (37:15):
Actually, Zaid, it's actually funny that you asked
that.
I actually have a lot of parentscome to me and say, My kid is
getting married, I'm gonna sendthem for premarriage counseling.

SPEAKER_01 (37:24):
Oh, the complete opposite.
Wow, okay.

SPEAKER_00 (37:27):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Uh, I've actually had agrandmother who whose wedding
gift to her grandson waspremarriage counseling.
So she said she was gonna coverit and she was gonna pay for it.
And uh, you know, just I have alot of parents now saying to
their children, go getpremarriage counseling.
And then I have a lot of kids aswell, you know, like younger

(37:48):
couples who are getting marriedwho will say that this is an
important value and whatnot.
But just as a message out there,nobody can replace parents.
Nobody out there can replace thevalue that the parents can
bring, the advice and thesupport that a parent can bring
into their child's life.
Nobody can take that place.

(38:08):
And premarriage counseling isnot about advice advice giving
or emotionally bonding with thechild.
I keep saying child, I don'tknow why I'm saying this, I'm
thinking as a parent becausethey're adults that are getting
married.
I'll be less uh um okay, soyeah, kind of coming back to
that.
Premarriage counseling is takinga class, it's a course, and you

(38:32):
get into premarriage counselingwith this intention that I want
to learn something to be able toapply it into my relationship.
Now that's the foundation of thework that's being done.
What parents do is they form,you know, they have emotional
bonds with their children, theygive them love, they give them

(38:52):
support, they give themencouragement, they help them
problem solve, they shouldactually.
So, what moms and dads can dofor their children who are
getting married, a therapist cannever do.
Don't ever think that this is athreat to your parenting, that
your children are trying topursue premarriage counseling or
marriage counseling.
Um, it's very important tounderstand that the roles are

(39:16):
very, very different.
Now, I have, mashallah, twogirls who are of marriageable
age, and one of the things thatI actually tell them is that if
you are looking to get marriedand the man you are talking to
is not open to pre-marriagecounseling, that's a red flag.
That's a red flag right there.
I'm like, nope, nope, nope.
If the guy says he's not open topre-marriage counseling, or the

(39:39):
guy's mom is like, no, no, inour family, we don't do this
stuff.
And they're like, nope, that's abig red flag.
Because the problem is that ifyou're not open to learning and
skill building, that tells me alot about you as a person.
That tells me that you'reclosed-minded.
It tells me that you're not thekind of person who's going to be
resilient and want to fight forthis relationship when things

(40:01):
are gonna get tough.
So it's for me that's uh that'shigh on that list.
You know, you tell me thatyou're but you're talking to
somebody, a girl or a guy.
I mean, I'm talking about mydaughters, but even if you're a
young man out there gettingmarried to somebody or thinking
of getting married, and theyoung lady says, No, I don't
want to do premarriagecounseling, I don't want to
think I want to marry you.

SPEAKER_01 (40:24):
Would you conduct the session in that situation or
would you not?
If one is being dragged, meaningfor for uh for a potential
son-in-law, would you be the oneto sit down and have the session
or would be like, no, this is alittle too long?

SPEAKER_00 (40:36):
No, no, no, no, that would be conflict of interest.
I I would never put the I wouldnever put the poor guy in that
situation.
But you know, I meanalhamdulillah, I'm as a parent,
I will always be there tosupport my daughters and give
them the you know whatever is uhkind of support they need as a
mom, but I would definitely notbe their marriage counselor
because that would beuncomfortable and awkward and uh

(40:59):
definitely would be conflict ofinterest.
But hiba, you had an interestingquestion or you were saying, um,
what about if one person isinterested but the other is not?
So, again, if you're not marriedand you're looking and you're
interested in working on yourmarriage and premarriage
counseling, and the otherpartner is not, that's a very

(41:20):
important consideration to keepin mind because I'll tell you,
that does not look good.
I was recently working with acouple similar to that.
The why the bride was insisting,no, please, please, please, you
know, just take us on.
And I wasn't taking clients onat that moment, so I said, Okay,
you know what?
She had been, she insisted andshe said, I only because I

(41:40):
normally what I'll do is I'llmake referrals to other people.
And she insisted that she wantedto work with me.
I said, Okay, fine, let me seewhere I can do find time in the
schedule.
Now, when they came intocounseling, you could tell, I
mean, my assumption is thatyou're coming into pre-marriage
counseling because you both wantto be there, but you could
clearly tell that the groom wasnot interested.
He was dragging his feet, andwhat I do is I give you a lot of

(42:03):
tools to work on outside of thesessions that you do separately,
and then you come back in and wediscuss them.
And his answers were verysurface level, like there was no
depth, and there was noself-reflection.
It was as though it was, let mejust get it done, get it over
with.
And for me, that was a very bigred flag because you're not your
values, they are not the same.

(42:24):
One person values marriageeducation, learning, skill
building, and the other personis essentially just checked out
from the process.
That's very telling.
So I did bring this up with thebride.
I did tell her, I mentioned thisto her.
I said, there seems to be a hugedisconnect between the two of
you.
Was he willing to come topremarriage counseling?

(42:45):
And then she discloses that hewas not.
That he was not interested.
He was, she kind of had to draghim, she kind of had to force
him in.
And I can tell you that theresults are not gonna be there
if you're forcing somebody.
You can't force somebody intotherapy.
And subhanallah, believe it ornot, you know, they started
premarriage counseling, they didabout three sessions and uh

(43:06):
abandoned it because obviouslythe guy was not interested.
So he wasn't, he was just makingit difficult to set up a time.
And you know, you kind of seethe disinterest and not
completing the uh modules thatwe're working on.
And then subhanAllah, theyabandoned counseling, they still
got married, and she called mefour months into their marriage,
like very early, maybe three orfour months into their marriage,

(43:27):
and she said it just wasn'tworking, and they were really
having a she was having a lot ofproblems with him, and she was
really unhappy, and there was alot of issues that had arised
within the relationship thatearly on.
And so, with you know, you wantto be sensitive because
obviously you don't want to sayto the girl, I told you so, um,

(43:49):
because that's not the rightthing to say to come on.
But at the end of the day, it'sheartbreaking because you you
saw that train wreck, like yousaw it coming, you knew this was
gonna happen, and you still yetyou still chose to pursue the
person, you still chose to getmarried, and you know, you can
run, but you cannot hide, itwill catch up with you.

SPEAKER_01 (44:09):
Because that brings up a good point that and and I
like you mentioned this earlieron, which is you don't
necessarily tell people not tomove forward, but you give them
the the tools for them to makethe decision on their own.
But at some point, like afterthey get past the compatibility
counseling, and then they'removing on through the steps.
I do you feel like, all right, Ijust gotta be blunt with you

(44:31):
guys.
I don't think you guys shouldmove forward.
This just doesn't look like agood decision.
Do you feel like you just haveto do that?

SPEAKER_00 (44:38):
I I I try uh I try to do my best to be as honest
and forthcoming with theirsituation and helping them
understand what they're gettinginto.
But my, I mean, you know, incounseling and therapy, they're
not my opinion, doesn't matterwhat I think of them, what I
feel about them.
That's not at the heart of mywork.

(45:00):
It's how they feel and how theythink.
And it's really important for atherapist to be able to empower
their client in making gooddecisions for themselves, to be
able to look at everything thatis at stake, to be able to, you
know, challenge their ownthinking, to question
themselves, and to reallyreflect deeply and come up with
the right answer.
So, no Zaid, I cannot say tosomebody, don't do this.

(45:22):
It's like you're walking into adeath trap here.
I I can't uh I can't say that.
But alhamdulillah,alhamdulillah, what I will tell
you is that when you are intherapy and you're part of that
process, your heart is primedand your mind is primed and open
to facing the challengingquestions, and people do end up

(45:43):
coming to good conclusions forthemselves.
Like, you know, don't we gottagive everybody credit, man,
mashallah?
Everybody is very insightful,everybody's an expert in their
own life, so we really have totrust and lean in on that that
people will eventually come tothe right decision.
But let's not forget, at the endof the day, qadr is a very big
thing.
If it is written for you, itwill be.
And alhamdulillah, we can tryto, you know, learn to navigate

(46:07):
our relationships, but that youknow, how getting pre-marriage
counseling does not mean thatyou're immune from divorce.
That doesn't mean that divorceis off the table now that you've
gotten pre-marriage counseling.
A lot of it about premarriagecounseling is also in its
application.
How are you applying the skillsand the tools that you learn?
How consistent are you beingwith them?

(46:29):
Because ultimately that's what'sgonna really matter in your
marriage.
You know, it's just not aboutsome glossy five-week course
that you took that's gonna makeyou feel like you're the perfect
couple.
It's actually year two, yearthree, year four, year five.
Like I mean, where you guys areright now as well.
The consistency in applicationof all the tools that I talked

(46:50):
about, that's what's gonnareally enhance the quality of
your relationship.

SPEAKER_02 (46:55):
You you make uh counseling honestly feel and
sound so cool.
Like I listened to you and I'mlike, I want to book a session
with you, honestly, seriously.

SPEAKER_00 (47:07):
But that's what it should be.
It shouldn't be about uh, youknow, it shouldn't stress people
out.
I actually have a lot of peoplewho come into therapy like
really stressed out because theydon't know what to expect, but
it's actually very different.
I mean, I'm hoping thatinshallah it's a positive
experience of just growth anddevelopment and just really
helping you, you know, like forexample, if you're living here,

(47:28):
I get your life up here.
And then the beautiful thing is,hiba, if you belong to a loving,
secure, safe relationship, thenit allows you to contribute
outside to other people, to yourcommunity, to the Ummah at
large.
It allows you to really do more,to give more, and to be more,
you know, like to do be able todo more in your Islam, to be

(47:48):
able to be uh able to do morefor your family, for your
children.
Because when couples are just atthis, like at this base level,
they're just fighting with eachother and they're just arguing
and they're just trying tosurvive, then there's no
thriving.
But when I can teach them tosurvive in a connected, more
quality way, that opens up youremotional, mental, physical

(48:09):
space to do so much more.
And then that's the people thatyou'll see that are giving back
into the community and peoplewho are successful and you know,
leading these content lives, notto say that successful people
all have good marriages, but I'mjust saying that you know,
internal contentment will allowyou then that freedom to go out
there and be able to do more.

SPEAKER_02 (48:29):
Oh, didn't even think about that.
But um, do you have couples orhave you had couples uh who came
to premarital counseling andafter a few sessions they
actually decided that they arenot a good fit for each other?

SPEAKER_00 (48:44):
All the time.
All the time.
Um yeah, so uh I'll tell youwhat happens.
So there's a lot of apps outthere right now for matchmaking,
some halal, some not so halal.
So couples will meet each other,but then they are like, okay, I
don't want to get emotionallyinvested unless this is the one.
Because you know, when you'reswiping on an app, it's really

(49:06):
hard to get to know that personor to really understand that
person.
There's a lot of great surfacelevel information.
I mean, I'm not against theapps, to be honest.
I feel like it filters a lot.
But what happens once you matchon the apps?
What happens next?
Now, do you just start dating?
Do you just start going out fordinners?
And do you, you know, likewhat's what's next after you've

(49:28):
matched?
So what happens is that a lot ofcouples, after they match on the
apps, will come forcompatibility counseling.
And so it's in a halalenvironment.
It is with purpose of marriage,it's very uh it's very
structured, it's very organized,and it's very meaningful.
And so couples will come in andthey'll have these
conversations, and then it'llallow them to make a better,

(49:48):
more informed decision.
And sometimes I've had coupleswho've said, you know, I mean, I
appreciate the uh the experiencethat I've had getting to know
you, but I really feel like ourvalues are not in alignment, or
I feel like I don't think I canhandle the fears that you have.
I feel like my fears will clashwith yours, or I feel like I
can't live with somebody who hasthese certain weaknesses, or so

(50:10):
on and so forth.
So it's just think of it likethis, just making a more
informed decision.
And the beautiful thing is it'snot personal.
It's not about, you know, oh, Idon't like your personality, or
you're not this, you're notthat.
They really understand that theprocess is very genuine, and
they understand that the processis very, it's it's meant for
clarity, and it's not, it's notabout a personal attack or it's

(50:33):
not criticism.
So I've had a lot of people walkaway from compatibility
counseling, alhamdulillah, verycontent and say, you know what?
I'm glad that you know I foundout what I did because I know I
can't take this on.
You know, I've had a I had a umyoung woman in therapy, and the
guy, uh the her uh fiance or herperson that she was looking to

(50:53):
get married to said that he haduh his trigger response was
fight.
And then I kind of go into adeeper, so it's not just a
surface level, okay, well, whatdoes fight look like and so on
and so forth?
So as he was speaking, she wasliterally like, you could see
the face change, you could seeher face changing.
And so I looked at her and Isaid, What's going on?

(51:13):
And she said, He sounds justlike my father.
And I don't have a goodrelationship with my dad.
My dad was abusive, and he made,you know, I just I really
struggled with my relationshipwith him.
And as I'm listening to this guyspeaking, he this is exactly
what my dad is like, and so shedoesn't want to get into a

(51:35):
lifetime of being re-traumatizedand re-triggered, and she needs
somebody who is more regulatedor does not have anger-related
issues or expressive anger.
It's okay for her to look atthat situation and say, I don't
think I can, like, this is gonnaconstantly try to trigger my
past trauma.
And so, alhamdulillah, again, asI said, when it's in a contained

(51:57):
professional environment, it'snot personal, it's just a very
realistic way to say, you knowwhat, we matched on the app, we
didn't match up in real life.
Alhamdulillah, I wish you allthe best.
And, you know, what I do at theend of it, if they if the couple
does decide that they do notwant to continue their
relationship, I always tell themto do this exercise in therapy,

(52:17):
like in front of me, where theythank the person for all the
knowledge and the informationand the learning and the you
know the process and tell thetell the person, you know, what
they learned and what theyappreciate about this person.
So it's not like, oh, you arehorrible and I don't want to
marry you.
It's just that you know what, Ireally learned that uh there's
certain things that really bringup my own past trauma that I
should probably work on.

(52:37):
But I really appreciate youbeing honest with me and I wish
you all the best in your journeyand your endeavor.
Now, interesting flip side tothis coin is that the person who
is struggling with certainissues now says, wait a minute,
before getting married, I shouldprobably learn to self-regulate.

SPEAKER_02 (52:56):
Subhanallah.
Wow.
Have you had situations wherethe relationship was way more
advanced?
Like, I don't know, they werethey already booked the whole,
the wedding was gonna happen ina month or whatever.
And then through counseling,they ended up ended things.

SPEAKER_00 (53:15):
I don't think I've had one of those, no.
I I don't think so.
And so also I should say thatit's not a back-to-back-to-back,
like uh pre-marriage or earlymarriage counseling.
It's uh you can actually, firstof all, you can learn these
tools at any time.
You could be married for 10years and you can still learn
tools to improve your marriage.
But when a couple comes to me,they will do some sessions like

(53:38):
the self-reflection, healthyattachment.
They'll do some sessions beforeand then we'll do some sessions
after.
I actually don't see them duringum the actual wedding period
unless there is some kind ofcrisis or emergency, because
really I just want them to goand enjoy their wedding.
I I don't want to need them intherapy trying to learn this and
learn that.
I I give them lots of time.

(53:59):
Go enjoy your wedding.
Call me if you guys are havingany kind of issues that are
wedding related or you know,relationship related.
But other than that, no, forsure.
Like I have never seen or I haveactually never had that
experience where the coupledecided to call it off at the
last minute.
No, that that hasn't happened.

SPEAKER_02 (54:18):
Alhamdulillah, inshallah, you never have this
experience.
You know, Zayd, I'm listeningand I'm thinking that we should
maybe add a section question onour registration form.
Are you open to premaritalcounseling?

SPEAKER_01 (54:29):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (54:30):
So we have, of course, uh an intake form.
And uh one of the questions iswhat are your top three Nanharam
deal breakers?
And I don't remember in our fouryears of matchmaking ever coming
across somebody who said a dealbreaker is someone who's not
opening open to counseling,which is interesting.

(54:51):
Like people don't think aboutit, or what exactly?

SPEAKER_01 (54:54):
I don't think people would overtly say it like that,
but I think if you dig deeper,there might be uh in some cases
maybe some aversion to it.

SPEAKER_02 (55:03):
Could be.
But yeah, we should definitelyadd this section.

SPEAKER_01 (55:06):
For sure, for sure.
Um I want to talk a little bitabout the topic of intimacy,
which is you know, a lot ofMuslims come into marriage with
zero knowledge or unrealisticexpectations.
So, how does premaritalcounseling handle this without
making people uncomfortable?
And how far do you take theseconversations?

SPEAKER_02 (55:26):
And if I may add to it, do you notice that men and
women come with differentexpectations uh in regards to uh
intimacy discussion?

SPEAKER_00 (55:36):
So, I mean, okay, just to understand that by the
time intimacy comes up, theclients have been with me for
long enough that there is acomfort between us to have that
conversation.
But I am very uh so we have tokeep in mind that there has to
be Hayah, right?
Like you have to sit there andyou have to discuss this topic

(55:56):
very carefully, very cautiously.
So, what I normally like to dois I'll sit with the female, uh,
like I'll sit with the white thebride to be, and I'll give her a
list of questions that she andthe partner can potentially
discuss and talk about, and thencome back to me if they have any
questions or if they have anyconcerns.
I will sometimes do a one-on-onewith the uh with the men as

(56:18):
well, but in general, what theeducation part is something that
is uh not individually relatedto them, but just overarchingly,
you know, like what are theexpectations in Islam and how
intimacy doesn't really start inthe bedroom, but it starts
outside the bedroom and how wehave to make sure that we are
creating not just physicalintimacy, but emotional

(56:38):
intimacy.
And then I'll I will do someguided questions for them.
Now we're not just talking aboutwhat's happening in the bedroom,
we're actually talking aboutcreating that emotional uh
closeness, that emotionalsafety.
We're talking about earlier onwhen I talk about healthy
attachment and we're doingthings like love languages,
we're actually learning abouteach other as to how we respond

(56:59):
to love, what puts us off, whatputs us in the mood.
So a lot of those conversationsare already leading up to
intimacy.
And then, alhamdulillah, when weget to that intimacy portion,
there I handle it in variousdifferent components.
One, as I said, is justeducating the couple on certain
um, I would say, I don't want touse the word ground rules, but
like uh just the basics ofintimacy in a marriage.

(57:22):
And then we'll I'll have thatprivate conversation with the
bride, and I'll encourage her tohave some conversation with her
potential partner.
Come back to me if you have morequestions or if you want to
discuss it further.
And if needed, I will sit withthe uh the groom and I will have
a conversation with him if heneeds to have certain questions
addressed or answered.

SPEAKER_02 (57:44):
Okay, and uh what about my part of the question?

SPEAKER_00 (57:47):
Oh, sorry, I'm gonna have to repeat that.

SPEAKER_02 (57:50):
Uh so I asked, do you notice uh that men and women
come with different uhexpectations in terms of
intimacy?

SPEAKER_00 (57:58):
Oh my goodness.
Okay, I have so many young mensay I have a very high sex
drive.

SPEAKER_01 (58:08):
They just come out and say that?

SPEAKER_00 (58:09):
How do they know they've never been married?
A lot, yeah.
A lot.
Well, I mean, you know, that'sthe reason why they have a
really high sex drive is becausethey haven't been married.
So their expectation in theirhead around intimacy is uh very
different than what theirreality might actually look
like.
Now, women are generally alittle bit more uncertain.

(58:31):
It's just the way that we arephysiologically designed that
it's really hard to gauge.
But I will say that women arevery open to experimenting, like
specifically this generationthat's now getting married,
they're very open toexperimenting with the
conversation, they're very opento asking questions, they're
very open to saying, okay, well,what does this mean?
You know, how do we pursue ahealthy intimacy or intimate

(58:55):
life without especially earlyon?
Like, how do we create that?
And again, as I said, when I dospeak to the woman, I do explain
a lot of things to her,especially physical barriers
that might be a problem in earlystages, and how you can overcome
those barriers and how you canmake intimacy a fun experience.
Um, a lot of the girls thesedays I'm hearing of is a
condition by the name ofvaginismus, which makes

(59:17):
penetration very difficult andcreates a very, very complicated
relationship around intimacy.
But there is their options forpelvic floor therapy, there's
options for treatment.
So, again, just to say that youcan normalize challenges in
intimacy as well, and then beable to work around them.

(59:38):
Now, intimacy is a subject thatI don't necessarily broach
before wedding.
Um, it might be something thatthere might be in their early
stages of marriage.
They might be, uh you know how Isaid that I'll give you a big
break in the middle while you'regetting married?
Intimacy is something that wemight talk about later on.
We will touch upon a bit before.
How do you feel going into themarriage?
Are there any questions?

(59:58):
But again, as I said, Therapy isan ongoing conversation, and not
everybody fits into thiscookie-cutter approach of
everybody's story is going tolook the same.
The initial conversation I havearound intimacy is yes, a little
bit more cookie-cutter, like it,it's like one size fits all, but
then later on, individual issuesaround you know, whether it's

(01:00:20):
any kind of uh physicaldysfunction, discomfort,
anything, that is somethingthat's much more private and
then will happen after they areuh you know living together.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:30):
Yeah, yeah.
Do you advise your clients toseek uh like Islamic sex
education prior to marriage?

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:37):
It's honestly it's based on whatever everybody's
comfortable with.
I'm gonna stick to what I saidearlier.
All education is good for you.
You know, go out there.
Sorry, beneficial knowledge.
There's some education out therethat's not beneficial, but like
beneficial knowledge, it's goodfor you.
Islamic sex education is veryimportant because a lot of the
times people are getting marriedwithout any idea about what to

(01:00:59):
expect on their wedding night orwhat to expect in terms of what
their own uh limitations are, orwhat they're allowed and what
they're not allowed.
So, alhamdulillah, you know, ifyou don't have a support system
in terms of family or an oldersibling that is going to be
helping you navigate intimacy inyour marriage, this is a
beautiful way to just learn.
Now, even if you have asupportive mom or you're close

(01:01:21):
to your sister or your brother,whatever, right?
Like if and both genders aregetting some information, it's
still wonderful to attend thisclass because it helps you
understand the parameters aroundwhat you're getting into.
Now, as long as alhamdulillah itis from a credible source, it is
definitely beneficial, it'shelpful.
If you don't learn anything,even then it's beneficial for

(01:01:44):
you.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:44):
Absolutely.
We are great advocates,honestly, because um, like some
people, like especially females,they don't know their own body.
Like the the physiology of theirown body, they don't know it.
And um, yeah, we are greatadvocates uh for that.
Uh what is one topic?
If there is like just one topicyou recommend uh people to

(01:02:08):
discuss before marriage, whatwould that be?
Oh, that's a tough one.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:13):
What's one topic that I encourage them to
discuss?
I I would feel like conflictresolution is the one thing that
I feel like if you're not gonnalearn anything else, because
maybe other stuff will just fallinto place magically.
But if there's one thing, peoplereally need to learn conflict

(01:02:34):
resolution.
They need to understand how dowe put out the fire once
something happens in ourmarriage.
And then by you know, one of thebigger parts of conflict
resolution is self-regulation.
So just knowing how to bringyour best self into that
situation and then learning tonavigate around problems because
you know, really a conflict in arelationship decides the

(01:02:58):
direction of the marriage.
If you have a series ofunresolved conflict, the burden
of that marriage is gonna weighvery heavy on you and it's not
you're gonna feel suffocated andtrapped in it.
But if you start resolvingconflict in a healthy way, that
deepens your connection with theperson, it builds reliance and
it builds trust.
So if there was that oneconversation that I think is

(01:03:19):
absolutely must-have, it is uhit's conflict resolution.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:23):
Beautiful, beautiful.
Now, if somebody wants to workwith you, how can they connect
with you?

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:29):
The best way to find me is on Instagram.
Uh, my handle is very simple.
It's my first and last name atHina Mirza.
Um, I am wonderful atresponding, and maybe not right
away, but you'll hear from me.
I don't ignore my messages.
I do get to all of them,alhamdulillah.
And uh it's the best way to getconnected with me.
Now, I most of the time I'm nottaking new clients because just

(01:03:52):
the load is full, but I amlooking into doing some uh
premarriage courses, like I wastelling you how just covering
the modules and getting achance, giving up uh people a
chance to just learn the modulescollectively, and then in that
those modules, there's takeawayswhere they do some
self-reflections, then theybring them back.
So I'm trying to designsomething where we can mass
produce this and more people canbenefit out of it.

(01:04:13):
So look out on my Instagram pagefor classes and courses and
retreats and things that I'mposting.
But uh the best way to find meis on Instagram.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:22):
Awesome, inshallah.
We will link that.
To be honest, um, when we werelike preparing for the episode
and stuff, we were worried likethe topic, it might seem a
little bit boring, like notexciting, but the way like you
discuss the topic, uh youcreated excitement.
I feel excited right now aboutnot premarital right now, it's

(01:04:43):
marital uh counseling.
But uh yeah, you heard guys,premarital counseling, it's not
a luxury, it's it's a must.
We made the mistake of not uhtaking that seriously, so please
don't uh make the same mistakewe did.
Thank you so much uh for yourtime, for your energy and your
knowledge.
And uh yeah, Jazakum La Akhar.
Thank you, our beautifullisteners, and inshallah we'll

(01:05:04):
see you in the next one.
Assalamu alaikum.
For having me.
As salamu alaykum.