July 4, 2025 • 45 mins
What happens when love meets real honesty, deep faith, and a few assumptions that need challenging? In this episode, we speak with Rabia Khedr, a blind Muslim woman, community leader, and mother of four, whose story flips the narrative on what it means to marry with a disability. From confident conversations with her future husband to surprising acceptance from her in-laws, Rabia's journey breaks barriers and stereotypes. This episode asks you to listen a little closer, not just for inspiration, but for the assumptions you didn't know you had.
Check out Deen Support Services at: https://www.deensupportservices.ca/
Connect with Rabia at: https://www.instagram.com/rabia.khedr?igsh=bGE1eHlmdzhrOTMy
Got a dilemma or story? The Single Muslim Hotline is here for you! We’ll play your anonymous messages in future episodes and offer real talk. Drop us a voice note 👇🏻
https://www.speakpipe.com/DiaryOfAMatchmaker
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
I literally was contemplating this driving to
the airport here en route toCairo, and as soon as we got off
the plane, his whole family wasthere and I was in the middle
of a bunch of people that weredoing their best to try to speak
English to me and all Iremember is somebody took my kid
, somebody took my bag, mymother-in-law took one of my
(00:22):
hands and my father-in-law tookone of my hands and my
father-in-law took my other handand walked me out of that
airport and all that fear inanticipation was gone.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
All right, welcome back everyone to another episode
of Diary of a Matchmaker.
My name is Zaid and on theother mic is my wife and co-host
Hiba.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Assalamualaikum.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Today we're talking about something that honestly,
doesn't get much attention,something that Hiba and I do
have some personal experiencewith, and that is the experience
of Muslims with disabilitieswhen it comes to marriage.
We all know trying to find aspouse can be difficult.
There's culture, familycompatibility, and then you add
disability into the mix andthere's even more layers.
(01:09):
People with disabilitiesusually get overlooked or
sometimes not even consideredwhen it comes to marriage, and
that needs to change.
To help us dive into this, I'mexcited to have Sister Rabia
Khidr.
She is the CEO of Dean SupportServices, a disability
organization in Ontario that'sdoing incredible work.
She's also the NationalDirector of Disability Without
(01:29):
Poverty and she's beenadvocating for disability rights
in Canada for years.
On top of that, she bringspersonal experience to this
conversation, someone who isblind and who deeply understands
what the journey looks like.
So today we're talking aboutthe realities, the challenges,
the potential for both peoplewith disabilities who are
looking to get married and alsofor able folks who might be
wondering could I, should Imarry someone with a disability.
(01:52):
So thank you for coming on tothe podcast, rabia.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Well, thank you for having me Salaam.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
Alaikum Walaikum Assalam, we're excited to have
you, since you're a pioneer inthis field, and we just learned
that you have your own podcast.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
So I'd love to start by asking a simple question.
You're obviously a blind Muslimwoman.
You're a community leader,you're running a nonprofit,
raising a family, married to asighted husband, so you're doing
mashallah so much.
How often do people look atyour life and go wait, how did
you pull all that off?
Speaker 1 (02:26):
I'm sure that people have a lot of questions and a
lot of assumptions because youknow, people stereotype.
I mean.
A common assumption I can tellyou is if I'm not walking into a
space with the titles andaccolades, people write me off
as just a woman who maybe had anaccident and lost her sight and
(02:46):
you know, oh, what a greathusband.
He's still standing by her.
I mean, we've had ouradventures over the years.
We've been married for over 30years now and we've been in
situations of those assumptionsand presumptions.
We have four kids and you knowit was always fun going to the
obstetrician's office and Ispecifically remember maybe we
(03:10):
were having I don't even knowchild number three or four and
going in and a Muslim brothersaying to my husband very
clearly asking a question sowhen was the accident?
Now my husband could havecracked all kinds of jokes with
that one, but he looked at him.
He said what accident?
So you know he.
(03:30):
The assumption by this brotherwas, of course you wouldn't
marry a blind woman by choice.
There must have been anaccident at some point in time.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
It just goes to show the lack of education, lack of
awareness, lack of evenopen-mindedness, like some
people are close-minded and theythink that everyone else should
be the same way, I guess.
But personally, you know, rabia, I also have a visual
impairment and I can't tell youhow many times I thought to
(04:00):
myself marriage is not for me,or maybe marriage is for me, but
I have to prove myself.
I have to prove that I'm worthyof love and being considered
for marriage.
Have you ever felt the same waybefore?
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Well, I'm 55 years old, so you're taking me back to
like a long time ago.
You know, during my undergrad,when we were all involved with
MSA and everybody was, you know,the biggest question on
everyone's mind was how do weget married?
You know, and I was like theonly disabled person in that mix
and you know, we organizedlectures on marriage because we
(04:37):
had all this conflict going onbetween culture and faith and
the Western context and we weretrying to find ways to reconcile
that.
All of us at that time so melike anybody else had those
thoughts.
But I knew the culture andtradition that I come from, a
South Asian.
You know Pakistani culture.
Typically the mother-in-lawspick the bride, and who would
(05:01):
pick a girl with vision loss fortheir perfect boy, right?
So, um, I always thought I Ididn't think marriage would
happen to me in that cultural,traditional way and I wasn't
about to go through thatexperience of somebody coming
over with a quote-unquote rishtaor proposal serving tea to them
(05:23):
and they figure out I can't see, because nobody told them in
advance and they walk out.
I was not going to humiliatemyself like that.
So I wasn't going to conform toculture.
I knew that.
But I always thought, you know,it's probably going to be
somebody who will be liketotally mainstream, who will see
me from, you know, the otherend of the room, because we all
(05:44):
watched those soap operas rightgrowing up and it would be like
Hollywood style and would changetheir faith.
For me that's what I alwaysthought.
Okay, I don't think I ever toldmy husband or my kids this
story, but but that was kind ofthe assumption in my head.
But you know, I was going to bethis career woman, I was going
to make millions and live mylife.
So plan A was somebody wouldmeet me like that.
(06:05):
Plan B was if I couldgenetically figure out having
healthy kids and blah, blah,blah by the time I was, you know
, 35 and in my prime years tohave a child or not, I would
make a very deliberatetransactional decision, maybe to
find somebody with the best ofintentions.
Transactional decision, maybeto find somebody with the best
(06:27):
of intentions.
But if they didn't stick around, I'd take that risk right.
So Muslim identity was alwaysimportant.
I didn't expect things tohappen in any um traditional way
and I didn't expect things tohappen the way things happened
so how did things happen?
if we may ask, well, um, I hadmy husband and I had a mutual
(06:49):
friend.
Yeah, uh, that couple was alsomixed culture and the you know
the woman, my friend.
She reached out to me, said oh,my husband has this friend,
he's looking to get married.
I was prepared to hook him upwith a lot of my friends who
were desperately looking to getmarried and we were actually
holding an MSA marriage lecturethat I was involved in planning
(07:13):
and hosting.
And so she said to me whatabout you?
And I said well, I'm notmarrying anybody who doesn't
understand my vision loss.
I'm not having somebody come tomy home and and and you know
embarrass me walk away becausethey realize I can't see.
So they have to understand myvision loss and the added
(07:34):
dynamic of me having siblingswith disabilities, because it's
not just my lived experience.
My sister has the same eyecondition and between the two of
us we had brothers due to agenetic fluke between my parents
, with intellectual disabilitiesor global developmental delay.
Okay, so we are a packet, takeit or leave it.
And she said to me well, youknow, I'm gonna bring him to
(07:57):
introduce him.
So we met at u of t at amarriage lecture and the rest is
history, with some bumps alongthe way.
But you know, I put my cards onthe table.
He put his cards on the table,approached my parents, and my
parents were shocked becausethey didn't think about marriage
for me at that point in time.
And then they started to thinkabout it in all kinds of
(08:21):
directions.
So it was, it was a journey toget them to open their mind to
somebody that wasn't the sameethnicity, wasn't the same
culture.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Wow, that reminds me a lot.
There's some similaritiesbetween your story and our story
too, because when Hiba firstmessaged me, the first
conversation was regarding hereye condition and just to make
sure that I was understanding ofthat and that I was okay with
that.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
And uh, and we unpacked that and alhamdulillah,
everything else is historybecause you don't want to invest
your time and heart andemotions and with someone only
to, just like you said, beembarrassed or humiliated.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Yeah, absolutely exactly like it says.
Just like let's lay our cardson the table, let's's get to
business.
This is serious business.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
I like this.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
So do you think most Muslims know how to approach
someone with a disability formarriage, or are they just
scared to say the wrong thing?
So they say nothing at all?
Speaker 1 (09:17):
I think there's a lot of attitudinal barriers that
are internalized across theboard amongst Muslims,
regardless of their livedexperiences.
I think those stereotypes arereinforced through family.
I think those stereotypes areeven reinforced, in fact, in the
(09:39):
mosque when marriage is talkedabout, when some of our scholars
or khatibs talk about marriageand highlight the qualities,
especially the qualities of awoman that you should be seeking
as a spouse.
I specifically remember sittingin a mosque for Friday prayers.
(10:02):
Sitting in a mosque for Fridayprayers and the imam and he
wasn't anybody well-known in thecommunity was giving advice
around marriage in his Fridaysermon, which I think is the
absolute wrong place to givethat kind of advice.
But that's besides the point.
I won't do that talk today, buthe was talking about it and I
(10:25):
was sitting with another mom whohad a child with a disability.
Her child he had, like his handwas a little different, he was
missing a couple of fingers andit was a little bigger.
And I remember this khatibsaying that you have to make
sure that the spouse you pick isphysically and mentally healthy
(10:49):
and amongst a few other things.
And at the end of the prayer,after we were exiting, I said to
her this guy just simply saidthat myself and your son should
never be picked as spouse,simply said that myself and your
son should never be picked asSpence.
And her son was, like what?
Seven years old.
(11:13):
But imagine that child hearingthat message sitting there.
Imagine if I wasn't marriedwith a family sitting there
hearing that message.
So those attitudes arereinforced.
So how are people even going toconsider somebody with a
disability when, when they'venever been uh shown positive
role models, they've never beenuh encouraged to seek out
somebody with a disability?
Like?
It's all about objectification,it's all about, you know, the,
(11:37):
the, the ideal hollywoodbollywood picture.
Years ago I did a talk onmarriage and I said every mommy,
no matter how ugly her boymight be and I'm just saying
this like not judging anybody'slooks, but just the way culture
considers spouses and all thisshe's always looking for the
(12:00):
perfect Dr Barbie.
You know, a South Asian guy canbe very dark, but he's a guy and
she's looking for the blue-eyed, blondie-looking, brown girl
with a medical degree who cancome to Canada and be his
perfect housewife, trophy bride.
(12:21):
She doesn't have to practicemedicine that she learned all
these years, as long as she can,you know, play the perfect
housewife role.
That's what they're seeking.
So it's really Hollywood andBollywood.
So getting people to see beyondthat is complicated.
But Allah is the all-knowing,the all-wise, and he has chosen
(12:42):
our matches.
We also have to hang on tightto that reality of our faith
that Allah picks who we live ourlives with in this dunya and he
brings us together, and that'swhat I believe happened between
me and my husband.
Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, isthe master planner and he has
the best of plans, alhamdulillah.
Speaker 3 (13:03):
Alhamdulillah.
I feel exactly what you said.
It's like the best of friends,alhamdulillah, alhamdulillah.
I feel exactly what you said.
It's like the default is nounless, like this, person with
disability stands out so muchthat I have to actually consider
them for marriage.
Like on our registration formwhen we take on new clients, one
of the fields they have to, orthe boxes they have to check is
(13:24):
am I open to marrying someonewith health limitation?
And it's not even disability,it could be, I don't know,
diabetes or whatever and most ofthem say no, like I would say
95 of them say no yeah, becauseimmediately right off the bat,
they're thinking oh, is thisperson going to be a burden on
the relationship yeah, it's aproblem.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
It's a problem the default.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
This is a problem exactly like I feel people
overestimate how you could sayhow hard it is to marry someone
with disability.
How can we normalize it alittle bit or, like, open their
eyes to the strengths that thisperson can come with?
Speaker 1 (13:59):
well, I think we're doing just that through your
podcast.
We're talking about the issue,so it's really about educating
people, sharing success stories,showing Muslim individuals who
live with disabilities, who arerole models of people with or
without disabilities.
Because they are accomplished,they are contributing in so many
(14:22):
ways.
You know I might not be thebest at cooking and cleaning and
ironing my husband's clothes,but there's a lot more that I do
that a woman without adisability wouldn't do.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
How can someone with a disability talk about it when
they're getting to know a spouse, without feeling like they're
justifying their existence?
Speaker 1 (14:48):
I think again, you know, if you're seeking a spouse
that is religiously inclined,they should understand and
appreciate the fact that Allahsubhanahu wa ta'ala does not
create imperfection.
Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala doesnot make mistakes.
He does not make errors.
So we are not broken bodies.
We are not quote unquotedeformed.
(15:10):
We are not in any way or shapedamaged product.
We are created as perfectbeings, with and without
disabilities.
So if we first start with thatshared belief that Allah is the
(15:33):
most wise and he is our creatorand sustainer and he has already
determined who we're going toshare our lives with in this
dunya, then it should be easyfor us to just talk about our
disability experience, and Ithink it should be talked about
right up front, openly andhonestly.
(15:53):
One of the pieces that wasreally important to me was also
explain up front the geneticsaround my disability and the
disabilities of my brothers.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
And did your husband, like, have a lot of questions,
or did he?
He was?
Speaker 1 (16:10):
fairly open.
He was very open-minded aboutit, he didn't really have
questions.
He actually immediatelyrecalled a distant relative of
his who had vision loss, who wasmuch older than him, who he
used to scribe exams for.
So you know low-tech times atAl-Azhar University or wherever
(16:33):
his cousin studied in Egypt andhe was still in high school, he
used to scribe his exams.
So he recalled thoseexperiences and thought oh okay,
no worries, we'll figure thisout.
You're open to me, I'm open toyou.
It was that kind of a thing,because everybody has a story to
tell and you just got to shareyour story wholeheartedly,
(16:58):
without fear.
There's nothing to hide, youknow.
I mean the weirdest line like Imentioned and and I don't know
if you know, you've been intoBollywood past, but you know the
Muslim empires and stuffthere's a song and it's like so
(17:36):
if there's no veil between youand God, why do we need to veil
from humanity and veil orcurtain like there's no secret
between you and God, so why doyou have to keep a secret from
his creation, from human beings?
And and that's how I see itreally like I have nothing to
(17:57):
fear, take it, or leave it.
Unfortunately, not most peoplewith disabilities have the same
confidence that you have, and Iguess this comes with time, with
experience and a lot of bumpsin the road, right like I was
born in a little village and Ialways acknowledge the fact that
if I grew up in that village,my life would have been very
different, that I would bewashing somebody's dishes today
(18:20):
for my next meal.
But it's this country,regardless of the bumps in the
road, where I had access toeducation, access to a career,
having a family and beinginvolved in community.
It wasn't perfect, but what Ilearned along the way was to
(18:42):
fight for what's right and fightfor what I need, and I have
nothing to be embarrassed orashamed about when it comes to
my identity in Hawaii.
And that also came side, youknow, side by side with my you
know journey as a Muslim andrecognizing my deen, aside from
my culture and, you know,figuring out that.
You know I needed to accentthat white cane that I carry,
(19:05):
you know, carry but don't usevery well, I rarely use with a
hijab right.
Go all the way, brown blindgirl in a hijab right.
And my line has always been,you know, I wanted the world not
to see me as a blind brownwoman or a brown blind woman.
I wanted them to see me asMuslim first.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
Something I also used to tell myself, that I'm like
three minorities rolled into onea person with disability, a
Muslim hijabi woman in anon-Muslim country and I'm
Palestinian in a Jewish state.
So I feel it gives you lots ofstrength.
That, like it forces you to bestrong and to open your heart to
(19:50):
people, to maybe beingdisappointed, to being rejected,
and that's okay.
It makes you stronger,absolutely.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
I'm glad you guys touched upon this topic of
questions like what questions toask.
So let's say someone is open tothe idea of marrying a person
with a disability, but they'renot sure what questions to ask
or how to ask them.
So what's the line betweenbeing informed or just being too
intrusive or insensitive?
Speaker 1 (20:17):
There's no line, just ask.
Don't assume it's the samething.
We train people I've trainedhundreds and thousands of people
over the years aroundaccessibility and inclusion, and
the biggest barrier is alwaysattitudinal.
And in order to, you know, evenchallenge those internalized
(20:37):
assumptions that we have aboutdisability, the best way forward
is ask.
There's nothing wrong withasking questions respectfully
and honestly, and that's thebest way to start off any
conversation.
When we're discussing marriage,just be honest with each other,
(20:57):
with family, with potentialpeople involved in the process.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
Actually being asked, makes us feel seen and it's
like you don't have to tippy-toearound us and it makes us feel
respected right, at least that'show I feel Absolutely around us
and makes us feel respected,right, at least that's how I
feel Absolutely.
I think, rabia, one of themisconceptions out there about
disability is that it's treatedas one experience, when it's in
(21:23):
fact it's very different fordifferent people, for different
disabilities.
Now, how can someone who hasnever been exposed to disability
like approach it in a nuancedway?
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Well, again, we have general values in this society
and I think the youngergeneration today is more open
and has had, if they reflect,someone that they've been
exposed to with a disability,whether it was through school or
through community or throughfamily, so it's more familiar,
(22:01):
it's less taboo if they havebeen brought up in a mainstream,
local context in North America,so they just again can learn
(22:27):
more, reflect on, you know, theidea of our values and how to
reconcile those values withinculture.
Like disability in Islam itjust is Right, Like if Allah is
absolutely flawless.
We are not flawed.
And the references to disabilityin the Quran are very
metaphoric, they're notphysiological.
Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, istalking about the blindness of
(22:49):
you know, the heart and the souland the mind.
He's not talking about you knowthe heart and the soul and the
mind.
He's not talking about you knowthe blindness of your vision.
He's not talking about thephysiological deafness of your
hearing.
He's talking about theideological deafness to hearing
what is true in terms of hisexistence and creation.
(23:10):
You know Allah, Subhan Allah,is not talking about
physiological references todisability.
He's talking fundamentallyabout us not being open-minded
to the truth and justice.
So if we go back to the truthand justice in our traditions,
then there should be no barriertoward looking at his creation.
(23:34):
That just happens to bedifferent.
We are all unique, every one ofus with or without disabilities
, and what people need tounderstand is a disability can
happen to you as well.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
It's a very good point.
Actually, we don't evenconsider it.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
And I remember actually someone my mother was
talking to and she said this tomy mom not a Muslim woman,
actually a Sikh woman, Punjabiand she married a guy that had
schizophrenia.
And my mother said to her didyou know that he had this?
And she said I knew and Iagreed Because, you know,
(24:18):
tomorrow anything can happen toanybody.
I could have married somebodywithout anything and they could
have something tomorrow.
So what's meant to be is meantto be.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
It's a very good way to look at it.
Actually, Life is so unexpected.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
I actually wanted to dive deeper into your personal
journey getting married and talkmore about the component of
family compatibility.
So when your husband showedinterest in you, was there
resistance from his side of thefamily?
And, and if there was, how didyou navigate that without
dismissing the family completely?
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Well, his family wasn't here.
You know, they were happy thathe's in the West and picking a
Muslim that wears hijab.
You know, I had my fears whenwe were traveling there to go
visit his family for the firsttime.
I was like, how's your familygoing to accept me?
You know, I'm not the sameethnicity, I don't speak Arabic,
(25:14):
I'm on top of that, you know,having at that point I had some
functional vision, but notenough.
So I said, you know, and havinglow vision, like how are they
going to take all this?
And he was like you're my wife,you're the mother of my child,
they're going to love you.
And so I literally wascontemplating this driving to
the airport here en route toCairo, and as soon as we got off
(25:39):
the plane, his whole family wasthere and I was in the middle
of a bunch of people that weredoing their best to try to speak
English to me and all Iremember is somebody took my kid
, somebody took my bag, mymother-in-law took one of my
hands and my father-in-law tookmy other hand and walked me out
of that airport and all thatfear in anticipation was gone.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
Wow, wow, sounds like a fairy tale.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Yeah, it does.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
And you know, I mean that was the first time I met
them.
The next time I met myfather-in-law, he was passing
away.
He was very sick and I wastalking to him, joking, having
my sister-in-law translate tohim.
I said you know, baba, you needto get well so you can come to
Canada and you can come and seemy house.
And you know my kids, they drawon the walls and you know
(26:30):
they've discolored everything.
But who cares?
I can't see.
And he said to my sister-in-lawthat she translated to me.
He said to her you don't see,but you see with your heart.
And I love that.
That's like one of the lastthings that he communicated to
me.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
It's amazing finding a family like that.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
Yeah, yeah, it's not a given, unfortunately.
But what would you say tosomebody who's considering
marrying a person withdisability but then their family
starts putting doubts in theirhead and like trying to make
them think more realistically?
If I may say, like for a lackof better term.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Well, be realistic, but put your trust in Allah
subhanahu wa ta'ala, and do youristikhara and educate your
family.
People will come on board ifyou are sure of what you're
doing.
Like you have to be sure ofyour decision, and a big part of
(27:31):
that is your faith.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
You know, you shared your experience from the Muslim
community earlier on and I feellike even now, we as a Muslim
community we haven't really mademuch progress in this space and
that non-Muslims are so muchfurther ahead of us in this kind
of work and just inclusion.
So what are some things that wecan actually learn from
non-Muslims in regards toinclusion, support or just the
(27:56):
whole stigma in relationships?
Speaker 1 (27:58):
We're working on it.
We're working in mainstreamspace and we're also working in
community space.
So, yes, the philosophy isthere in the mainstream, but
there's still a conflict withreality.
That's why there's so muchinvestment and effort made.
There's more openness and maybecommunication we're working
(28:19):
through again at Dean SupportServices and we have something
within Dean through research,our Race and Disability Canada
project, in that in our Race andDisability Canada project we
are trying to work on issues ofintersectionality, like for
people to understand culture anddisability inclusion, for
people to apply principles ofinclusion, diversity, equity and
(28:41):
accessibility wholeheartedly,because the mainstream really
doesn't do well when it comes todiversity and inclusion.
So it's not all a bed of rosesin the mainstream either.
There is a lot of work to bedone.
The challenge for us as acommunity, as Muslims, is we
(29:05):
don't do well when it comes tocollaboration.
We are in that generation wherereally it's about the clicks
and likes and just whatever wecan show off, more than
substance.
This work has to be deep-rootedand substantive.
This work has to be deep-rootedand substantive and we haven't
gone beyond investing in bricksand mortar, reinventing, you
(29:32):
know, the mosque, the school.
We haven't made that full shifttoward programs and services.
We haven't really includedpeople with disabilities in our
institutions.
We think we can do everythingourselves when it comes to our
(29:54):
institutions.
We don't collaborate.
So really shifting attitudes inthe community ensuring greater
inclusion of people withdisabilities has to be led by
disabled people.
Allies and supporters can be apart of it professionals, you
know, families but if weourselves are not doing that
work, it's not going to bringabout that deep shift that we
(30:20):
need in terms of true inclusionand belonging for people with
disabilities within the Muslimcommunity.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
So we need to be leading that movement, just like
with Islamophobia, we need tobe the ones leading the fight
against Islamophobia.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
And we have to come together as people with
disabilities with our livedexperience.
Resources are very limited.
We constantly are finding,especially in Canada.
We're constantly finding globalorganizations trying to come
(30:56):
here because they see a strong,lucrative donor base, but then
that just spreads the potfurther and further and leaves
very little for us to do thework that needs to be done.
People with disabilities andtheir families are very isolated
(31:17):
.
They are desperate.
There's so much need and we'redoing very little to meet that
need just because of scarcity ofresources and lack of
collaboration.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
You mentioned before something about how a sheikh in
the masjid said something thatwas, like you could say,
completely insensitive.
You even mentioned that thetopic of marriage and disability
shouldn't be discussed in likea jum'ah khutbah.
Can you please elaborate alittle bit more about that, in
terms of what our scholars andsheikhs are getting right?
(31:53):
What are they getting wrong?
Speaker 1 (31:56):
Well, I think they're not leveraging the power of the
pulpit.
They have a dedicated audienceevery Friday.
That audience needs positivereinforcement.
It's not the space that we needto preach on deep, deep topics
(32:19):
and bring about deep shifts inunderstanding.
So, you know, it's really aboutempowering people to come back
and learn more and connect more.
It's not the opportunity tojust, you know, shift their
attitude in that 20 minutes, 40minutes, whatever that time
period is.
However, you know we arestarting and we did this first.
(32:42):
You know, as Muslims withdisabilities, we started a
khutbah campaign back in 2009for the International Day of
People with Disabilities.
So we send out talking points,we spread the word locally and
globally to encourage imams tojust talk about disability
(33:07):
generally, so that, you know,people feel a sense of belonging
, people open their hearts andminds and we shift attitudes.
But that's not to say thatthat's where we can talk about
disability and marriage in adeep, meaningful way.
Speaker 3 (33:26):
Yeah, yeah.
I feel sometimes when, likepeople, chefs, leaders or talk
about disability, they talkabout it with the sense of pity.
And then you mentioned, when Iasked you what's the name of
your podcast, you said it's thepity party.
So I guess you're trying tolike poke fun at what's the
reality that's out there.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Absolutely, absolutely and yes, pity is
reinforced constantly.
We have so much work to do toshift attitudes.
We offer accessibility trainingthrough DEEN.
We can do accessibility auditsfor organizations.
We also run this khutbahcampaign to raise awareness and
(34:06):
are happy to, you know, coachimams and khatibs so that their
messaging is the messaging theyneed to be sending out, that's,
you know, truly aligned withIslamic tradition of inclusion
and belonging.
Going back to Surah Abisa, where, you know, rasulullah was
interrupted by Ibn Maktoum andhe frowned and looked away and
(34:30):
Allah revealed verses to educatethe Prophet, in order to
educate us.
And Ibn Maktoum was givenopportunities and you know he
was trusted and he was left incharge of the city of Medina in
the absence of the Prophet.
So, you know, accessibility,inclusion, disability-related
(34:56):
accommodation was exemplified inso many ways at the time of the
Prophet.
It was, you know, addressedthrough Omar ibn Khattab's
journey as Khalifa and supportsand services were present.
And you know, accommodation wesee reflected right from salah.
(35:18):
How you do salah, you know youcan pray standing, if not pray
sitting, pray lying down, likeyou can pray no matter what.
Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, hasaddressed every barrier for us
to engage in his worship.
So accommodation is built in toIslamic tradition and inclusion
(35:40):
is exemplified through theProphet and how he supported and
included people withdisabilities.
We just have to recall that andlearn from it again.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
I like that you mentioned shifting your mindset.
Let's say, someone has neverconsidered marrying a person
with a disability before thisepisode.
What's a better filter to usethan just can this person walk,
see and hear?
Speaker 1 (36:09):
Wow, there are visible and invisible
disabilities and you know,canadian statistics are that 27%
of the population lives with adisability.
And there are things that wedon't consider a disability
right, but they're there.
Somebody could have arthritis,somebody could have you know,
which progressively can resultin barriers in their daily
(36:31):
living activities.
There are undiagnosed thingslike there's.
There's lots of stuff.
You just have to put your trustin Allah SWT when somebody
crosses your path with adisability and you just have to
be open to possibilities.
Don't just put a checklisttogether saying absolutely not,
(36:52):
because you know what you mightdeliberately say absolutely not
and tomorrow something happensin your life to change.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
It's like I was telling him in an episode we
just did recently that you canplan all you want, but Allah is
the best of planners and youjust have to be.
Want, but Allah is the best ofplanners and you just have to be
prepared for when Allahpresents you with the right
opportunity.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
I mean, how many able-bodied parents do we have
out there that end up havingdisabled children?
So it's Allah's will, yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
Alhamdulillah, alhamdulillah for everything you
know, when you were talkingabout inclusion in Ardeen and
how, like, if you can pray,standing pray, sitting pray,
like what I see when I hear thisis that you are just like
anybody else.
You have to pray.
Just because you have adisability doesn't mean you get
a pass.
You have to pray, you have thatresponsibility and there is no
(37:50):
better way to just make a personwith disability feel more like
they are just like anybody elsethan having the same
responsibilities, praying allthe Islamic responsibilities
anybody else has.
But I feel when somebody looksat a person with disability, all
they see is their disability.
They don't see anything elseand it just becomes all about
that.
How can someone see beyond that?
Speaker 1 (38:11):
Well, this is why we need to create opportunities for
people with disabilities tofully participate in our
community, in society, so thattheir abilities are showcased.
Like I said for me, if I walkinto a space and I'm not walking
into that space as the host ofthe event, as the facilitator of
a workshop, as the speaker, asthe presenter, I too am
(38:35):
marginalized as just thatdisabled woman.
All my power is minimized.
I have to walk into that spacewith power, and power comes
through that level ofparticipation.
I was at a wedding party theother night actually, and I sat
at a table where there was agroup of people no real intros
(39:00):
done.
They were all highly educatedprofessionals.
I'm sure they made all kinds ofassumptions about me being
there and maybe thoseassumptions shifted when another
woman came up to me and said oh, I am so glad to see you.
It's been so long.
You know you've done someincredible work that I admire.
What are you doing these days?
(39:20):
Are you still serving ascommissioner with the Ontario
Human Rights Commission?
You know, and I'm sure some oftheir ears might have perked up
and they start to think well,maybe this woman isn't just a
disabled woman.
And remember, those stereotypeseven come from people that you
expect to be informed, like theworst attitudes come from
(39:42):
doctors Right, so I can go to adoctor for whatever health issue
I'm having.
If they do not know me, it'slike oh, you're blind, so you
have no vision.
Oh, I'm so sorry.
And it's like, whoa, you haveno idea who I am, honey, you're
just seeing the hijab, you'reseeing the skin color, you're
(40:03):
seeing the vision loss.
I'm coming in as a patient andyou're writing me off as a
nobody and I'm somebody.
And that's a constant struggle,too, right, because we want to
be humble and yet we are forcedto brag and sell ourselves so
that people don't write us off.
(40:23):
And that's a constant challengefor me, like I always, you know
, want to lowball what I do, butthen there are times when I
have to highlight what I do andit's just such a balancing act
that I don't want to be bragging.
I am not.
I don't like to be that person.
Speaker 3 (40:44):
But you have to prove yourself.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
Yes, after all these years, I still have to prove
myself.
Subhanallah.
Speaker 3 (40:53):
Wow, I think this is a constant theme.
If we're talking about marriage, it's a constant theme.
Like somebody who's divorcedthey have to prove themselves
that they are worthy of loveagain.
Someone who has children theyhave to prove themselves that
they are worthy of love.
Again someone who has children,they have to prove them.
It's um, the.
The marriage scene is,especially in our muslim
community.
It's really messed up.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
And you add disability to that and wow
absolutely, but my, you know my,my one big thing for people
with disabilities out there whowant to get married is know
yourself, be confident, be openand actively search.
Don't let people's attitudesprevent you from what is your
(41:33):
right in this life.
And if Allah has given you thatright, nobody can take it away.
And if he has, you know, hasput somebody out there, then you
need to actively do your partto find them.
Speaker 2 (41:50):
That was actually going to be my next question of
advice you would give to asingle Muslima who's had their
heart broken and just startingto doubt the idea of marriage.
But yeah, that's great advice.
Speaker 3 (42:00):
What about one last advice you can give an abled
person to just broaden theirhorizon in terms of considering
someone maybe with disability?
Speaker 1 (42:10):
Well, again, it comes down to the same thing.
You don't know what life holdstomorrow, right?
Like people with vision loss,some of us are born with it.
Half the student population hasto wear reading glasses in
grade seven in this country, orsomething like that.
Right?
As you age, in your older years, as seniors, vision loss is a
(42:36):
prevalent reality, right?
At least 25% of seniors startexperiencing vision loss, start
experiencing vision loss.
So anything can happen over thecourse of your life.
You can have an accident, anillness, an injury.
(42:56):
Do you not want your spouse tostand by you through that?
Do you not want to picksomebody that you can trust will
be there no matter what?
You have to find more things incommon to build a marriage on.
You have to have shared values,shared beliefs.
Speaker 3 (43:21):
And think about what you can bring to each other, not
what you think is absent.
I love this.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
That's a great mic drop no-transcript to Dean
(43:52):
Support Services and join someof our peer networks and learn
from one another.
Like the best of teachers areourselves as role models to each
other as people withdisabilities.
So we have a network of peoplewith vision loss.
We have a network of peoplewith mobility related
disabilities.
We have a network of caregivers.
These topics are talked aboutin those spaces, so please check
(44:15):
us out at deansupportservicesca.
I'm also, you know, on socialmedia and all over the place and
happy to connect and talk whenI can to people.
I would encourage us workingtogether, Hibban Zayed, to see
how we can make Halal Matchaccessible to people with
disabilities more by helpingshift attitudes in our society
(44:40):
and in our community, in oursociety and in our community.
So always happy to explorepossibilities and we have to
continue to raise awareness andeducate our broader community.
Speaker 3 (44:52):
Absolutely Personally .
I feel I'm not just trying tobe nice I'm sure you've heard it
many times before, but I dohave to say it I feel you are a
source of inspiration.
Inspiration to many people, notjust for people with
disabilities, and I'm reallyhonored that we got the chance
to talk to you and have you onour podcast and I am always
excited to meet incrediblepeople with disabilities doing
(45:16):
incredible things like you.
Speaker 1 (45:17):
Hiba, Thank you.
And Zaid, I love what you guysare doing.
I was so excited to meet youwhen we met and I hope we find
ways to work together in thefuture, so thank you so much for
having me on this podcast.
Speaker 3 (45:27):
Thank you.
Thank you so much for your timeand knowledge.
Thank you to our beautifullisteners and, inshallah, we'll
see you on the next one.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
All right.
As-salamu alaykum.
I literally was contemplating this driving to
the airport here en route toCairo, and as soon as we got off
the plane, his whole family wasthere and I was in the middle
of a bunch of people that weredoing their best to try to speak
English to me and all Iremember is somebody took my kid
, somebody took my bag, mymother-in-law took one of my
(00:22):
hands and my father-in-law tookone of my hands and my
father-in-law took my other handand walked me out of that
airport and all that fear inanticipation was gone.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
All right, welcome back everyone to another episode
of Diary of a Matchmaker.
My name is Zaid and on theother mic is my wife and co-host
Hiba.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Assalamualaikum.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Today we're talking about something that honestly,
doesn't get much attention,something that Hiba and I do
have some personal experiencewith, and that is the experience
of Muslims with disabilitieswhen it comes to marriage.
We all know trying to find aspouse can be difficult.
There's culture, familycompatibility, and then you add
disability into the mix andthere's even more layers.
(01:09):
People with disabilitiesusually get overlooked or
sometimes not even consideredwhen it comes to marriage, and
that needs to change.
To help us dive into this, I'mexcited to have Sister Rabia
Khidr.
She is the CEO of Dean SupportServices, a disability
organization in Ontario that'sdoing incredible work.
She's also the NationalDirector of Disability Without
(01:29):
Poverty and she's beenadvocating for disability rights
in Canada for years.
On top of that, she bringspersonal experience to this
conversation, someone who isblind and who deeply understands
what the journey looks like.
So today we're talking aboutthe realities, the challenges,
the potential for both peoplewith disabilities who are
looking to get married and alsofor able folks who might be
wondering could I, should Imarry someone with a disability.
(01:52):
So thank you for coming on tothe podcast, rabia.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Well, thank you for having me Salaam.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
Alaikum Walaikum Assalam, we're excited to have
you, since you're a pioneer inthis field, and we just learned
that you have your own podcast.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
So I'd love to start by asking a simple question.
You're obviously a blind Muslimwoman.
You're a community leader,you're running a nonprofit,
raising a family, married to asighted husband, so you're doing
mashallah so much.
How often do people look atyour life and go wait, how did
you pull all that off?
Speaker 1 (02:26):
I'm sure that people have a lot of questions and a
lot of assumptions because youknow, people stereotype.
I mean.
A common assumption I can tellyou is if I'm not walking into a
space with the titles andaccolades, people write me off
as just a woman who maybe had anaccident and lost her sight and
(02:46):
you know, oh, what a greathusband.
He's still standing by her.
I mean, we've had ouradventures over the years.
We've been married for over 30years now and we've been in
situations of those assumptionsand presumptions.
We have four kids and you knowit was always fun going to the
obstetrician's office and Ispecifically remember maybe we
(03:10):
were having I don't even knowchild number three or four and
going in and a Muslim brothersaying to my husband very
clearly asking a question sowhen was the accident?
Now my husband could havecracked all kinds of jokes with
that one, but he looked at him.
He said what accident?
So you know he.
(03:30):
The assumption by this brotherwas, of course you wouldn't
marry a blind woman by choice.
There must have been anaccident at some point in time.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
It just goes to show the lack of education, lack of
awareness, lack of evenopen-mindedness, like some
people are close-minded and theythink that everyone else should
be the same way, I guess.
But personally, you know, rabia, I also have a visual
impairment and I can't tell youhow many times I thought to
(04:00):
myself marriage is not for me,or maybe marriage is for me, but
I have to prove myself.
I have to prove that I'm worthyof love and being considered
for marriage.
Have you ever felt the same waybefore?
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Well, I'm 55 years old, so you're taking me back to
like a long time ago.
You know, during my undergrad,when we were all involved with
MSA and everybody was, you know,the biggest question on
everyone's mind was how do weget married?
You know, and I was like theonly disabled person in that mix
and you know, we organizedlectures on marriage because we
(04:37):
had all this conflict going onbetween culture and faith and
the Western context and we weretrying to find ways to reconcile
that.
All of us at that time so melike anybody else had those
thoughts.
But I knew the culture andtradition that I come from, a
South Asian.
You know Pakistani culture.
Typically the mother-in-lawspick the bride, and who would
(05:01):
pick a girl with vision loss fortheir perfect boy, right?
So, um, I always thought I Ididn't think marriage would
happen to me in that cultural,traditional way and I wasn't
about to go through thatexperience of somebody coming
over with a quote-unquote rishtaor proposal serving tea to them
(05:23):
and they figure out I can't see, because nobody told them in
advance and they walk out.
I was not going to humiliatemyself like that.
So I wasn't going to conform toculture.
I knew that.
But I always thought, you know,it's probably going to be
somebody who will be liketotally mainstream, who will see
me from, you know, the otherend of the room, because we all
(05:44):
watched those soap operas rightgrowing up and it would be like
Hollywood style and would changetheir faith.
For me that's what I alwaysthought.
Okay, I don't think I ever toldmy husband or my kids this
story, but but that was kind ofthe assumption in my head.
But you know, I was going to bethis career woman, I was going
to make millions and live mylife.
So plan A was somebody wouldmeet me like that.
(06:05):
Plan B was if I couldgenetically figure out having
healthy kids and blah, blah,blah by the time I was, you know
, 35 and in my prime years tohave a child or not, I would
make a very deliberatetransactional decision, maybe to
find somebody with the best ofintentions.
Transactional decision, maybeto find somebody with the best
(06:27):
of intentions.
But if they didn't stick around, I'd take that risk right.
So Muslim identity was alwaysimportant.
I didn't expect things tohappen in any um traditional way
and I didn't expect things tohappen the way things happened
so how did things happen?
if we may ask, well, um, I hadmy husband and I had a mutual
(06:49):
friend.
Yeah, uh, that couple was alsomixed culture and the you know
the woman, my friend.
She reached out to me, said oh,my husband has this friend,
he's looking to get married.
I was prepared to hook him upwith a lot of my friends who
were desperately looking to getmarried and we were actually
holding an MSA marriage lecturethat I was involved in planning
(07:13):
and hosting.
And so she said to me whatabout you?
And I said well, I'm notmarrying anybody who doesn't
understand my vision loss.
I'm not having somebody come tomy home and and and you know
embarrass me walk away becausethey realize I can't see.
So they have to understand myvision loss and the added
(07:34):
dynamic of me having siblingswith disabilities, because it's
not just my lived experience.
My sister has the same eyecondition and between the two of
us we had brothers due to agenetic fluke between my parents
, with intellectual disabilitiesor global developmental delay.
Okay, so we are a packet, takeit or leave it.
And she said to me well, youknow, I'm gonna bring him to
(07:57):
introduce him.
So we met at u of t at amarriage lecture and the rest is
history, with some bumps alongthe way.
But you know, I put my cards onthe table.
He put his cards on the table,approached my parents, and my
parents were shocked becausethey didn't think about marriage
for me at that point in time.
And then they started to thinkabout it in all kinds of
(08:21):
directions.
So it was, it was a journey toget them to open their mind to
somebody that wasn't the sameethnicity, wasn't the same
culture.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Wow, that reminds me a lot.
There's some similaritiesbetween your story and our story
too, because when Hiba firstmessaged me, the first
conversation was regarding hereye condition and just to make
sure that I was understanding ofthat and that I was okay with
that.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
And uh, and we unpacked that and alhamdulillah,
everything else is historybecause you don't want to invest
your time and heart andemotions and with someone only
to, just like you said, beembarrassed or humiliated.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Yeah, absolutely exactly like it says.
Just like let's lay our cardson the table, let's's get to
business.
This is serious business.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
I like this.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
So do you think most Muslims know how to approach
someone with a disability formarriage, or are they just
scared to say the wrong thing?
So they say nothing at all?
Speaker 1 (09:17):
I think there's a lot of attitudinal barriers that
are internalized across theboard amongst Muslims,
regardless of their livedexperiences.
I think those stereotypes arereinforced through family.
I think those stereotypes areeven reinforced, in fact, in the
(09:39):
mosque when marriage is talkedabout, when some of our scholars
or khatibs talk about marriageand highlight the qualities,
especially the qualities of awoman that you should be seeking
as a spouse.
I specifically remember sittingin a mosque for Friday prayers.
(10:02):
Sitting in a mosque for Fridayprayers and the imam and he
wasn't anybody well-known in thecommunity was giving advice
around marriage in his Fridaysermon, which I think is the
absolute wrong place to givethat kind of advice.
But that's besides the point.
I won't do that talk today, buthe was talking about it and I
(10:25):
was sitting with another mom whohad a child with a disability.
Her child he had, like his handwas a little different, he was
missing a couple of fingers andit was a little bigger.
And I remember this khatibsaying that you have to make
sure that the spouse you pick isphysically and mentally healthy
(10:49):
and amongst a few other things.
And at the end of the prayer,after we were exiting, I said to
her this guy just simply saidthat myself and your son should
never be picked as spouse,simply said that myself and your
son should never be picked asSpence.
And her son was, like what?
Seven years old.
(11:13):
But imagine that child hearingthat message sitting there.
Imagine if I wasn't marriedwith a family sitting there
hearing that message.
So those attitudes arereinforced.
So how are people even going toconsider somebody with a
disability when, when they'venever been uh shown positive
role models, they've never beenuh encouraged to seek out
somebody with a disability?
Like?
It's all about objectification,it's all about, you know, the,
(11:37):
the, the ideal hollywoodbollywood picture.
Years ago I did a talk onmarriage and I said every mommy,
no matter how ugly her boymight be and I'm just saying
this like not judging anybody'slooks, but just the way culture
considers spouses and all thisshe's always looking for the
(12:00):
perfect Dr Barbie.
You know, a South Asian guy canbe very dark, but he's a guy and
she's looking for the blue-eyed, blondie-looking, brown girl
with a medical degree who cancome to Canada and be his
perfect housewife, trophy bride.
(12:21):
She doesn't have to practicemedicine that she learned all
these years, as long as she can,you know, play the perfect
housewife role.
That's what they're seeking.
So it's really Hollywood andBollywood.
So getting people to see beyondthat is complicated.
But Allah is the all-knowing,the all-wise, and he has chosen
(12:42):
our matches.
We also have to hang on tightto that reality of our faith
that Allah picks who we live ourlives with in this dunya and he
brings us together, and that'swhat I believe happened between
me and my husband.
Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, isthe master planner and he has
the best of plans, alhamdulillah.
Speaker 3 (13:03):
Alhamdulillah.
I feel exactly what you said.
It's like the best of friends,alhamdulillah, alhamdulillah.
I feel exactly what you said.
It's like the default is nounless, like this, person with
disability stands out so muchthat I have to actually consider
them for marriage.
Like on our registration formwhen we take on new clients, one
of the fields they have to, orthe boxes they have to check is
(13:24):
am I open to marrying someonewith health limitation?
And it's not even disability,it could be, I don't know,
diabetes or whatever and most ofthem say no, like I would say
95 of them say no yeah, becauseimmediately right off the bat,
they're thinking oh, is thisperson going to be a burden on
the relationship yeah, it's aproblem.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
It's a problem the default.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
This is a problem exactly like I feel people
overestimate how you could sayhow hard it is to marry someone
with disability.
How can we normalize it alittle bit or, like, open their
eyes to the strengths that thisperson can come with?
Speaker 1 (13:59):
well, I think we're doing just that through your
podcast.
We're talking about the issue,so it's really about educating
people, sharing success stories,showing Muslim individuals who
live with disabilities, who arerole models of people with or
without disabilities.
Because they are accomplished,they are contributing in so many
(14:22):
ways.
You know I might not be thebest at cooking and cleaning and
ironing my husband's clothes,but there's a lot more that I do
that a woman without adisability wouldn't do.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
How can someone with a disability talk about it when
they're getting to know a spouse, without feeling like they're
justifying their existence?
Speaker 1 (14:48):
I think again, you know, if you're seeking a spouse
that is religiously inclined,they should understand and
appreciate the fact that Allahsubhanahu wa ta'ala does not
create imperfection.
Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala doesnot make mistakes.
He does not make errors.
So we are not broken bodies.
We are not quote unquotedeformed.
(15:10):
We are not in any way or shapedamaged product.
We are created as perfectbeings, with and without
disabilities.
So if we first start with thatshared belief that Allah is the
(15:33):
most wise and he is our creatorand sustainer and he has already
determined who we're going toshare our lives with in this
dunya, then it should be easyfor us to just talk about our
disability experience, and Ithink it should be talked about
right up front, openly andhonestly.
(15:53):
One of the pieces that wasreally important to me was also
explain up front the geneticsaround my disability and the
disabilities of my brothers.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
And did your husband, like, have a lot of questions,
or did he?
He was?
Speaker 1 (16:10):
fairly open.
He was very open-minded aboutit, he didn't really have
questions.
He actually immediatelyrecalled a distant relative of
his who had vision loss, who wasmuch older than him, who he
used to scribe exams for.
So you know low-tech times atAl-Azhar University or wherever
(16:33):
his cousin studied in Egypt andhe was still in high school, he
used to scribe his exams.
So he recalled thoseexperiences and thought oh okay,
no worries, we'll figure thisout.
You're open to me, I'm open toyou.
It was that kind of a thing,because everybody has a story to
tell and you just got to shareyour story wholeheartedly,
(16:58):
without fear.
There's nothing to hide, youknow.
I mean the weirdest line like Imentioned and and I don't know
if you know, you've been intoBollywood past, but you know the
Muslim empires and stuffthere's a song and it's like so
(17:36):
if there's no veil between youand God, why do we need to veil
from humanity and veil orcurtain like there's no secret
between you and God, so why doyou have to keep a secret from
his creation, from human beings?
And and that's how I see itreally like I have nothing to
(17:57):
fear, take it, or leave it.
Unfortunately, not most peoplewith disabilities have the same
confidence that you have, and Iguess this comes with time, with
experience and a lot of bumpsin the road, right like I was
born in a little village and Ialways acknowledge the fact that
if I grew up in that village,my life would have been very
different, that I would bewashing somebody's dishes today
(18:20):
for my next meal.
But it's this country,regardless of the bumps in the
road, where I had access toeducation, access to a career,
having a family and beinginvolved in community.
It wasn't perfect, but what Ilearned along the way was to
(18:42):
fight for what's right and fightfor what I need, and I have
nothing to be embarrassed orashamed about when it comes to
my identity in Hawaii.
And that also came side, youknow, side by side with my you
know journey as a Muslim andrecognizing my deen, aside from
my culture and, you know,figuring out that.
You know I needed to accentthat white cane that I carry,
(19:05):
you know, carry but don't usevery well, I rarely use with a
hijab right.
Go all the way, brown blindgirl in a hijab right.
And my line has always been,you know, I wanted the world not
to see me as a blind brownwoman or a brown blind woman.
I wanted them to see me asMuslim first.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
Something I also used to tell myself, that I'm like
three minorities rolled into onea person with disability, a
Muslim hijabi woman in anon-Muslim country and I'm
Palestinian in a Jewish state.
So I feel it gives you lots ofstrength.
That, like it forces you to bestrong and to open your heart to
(19:50):
people, to maybe beingdisappointed, to being rejected,
and that's okay.
It makes you stronger,absolutely.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
I'm glad you guys touched upon this topic of
questions like what questions toask.
So let's say someone is open tothe idea of marrying a person
with a disability, but they'renot sure what questions to ask
or how to ask them.
So what's the line betweenbeing informed or just being too
intrusive or insensitive?
Speaker 1 (20:17):
There's no line, just ask.
Don't assume it's the samething.
We train people I've trainedhundreds and thousands of people
over the years aroundaccessibility and inclusion, and
the biggest barrier is alwaysattitudinal.
And in order to, you know, evenchallenge those internalized
(20:37):
assumptions that we have aboutdisability, the best way forward
is ask.
There's nothing wrong withasking questions respectfully
and honestly, and that's thebest way to start off any
conversation.
When we're discussing marriage,just be honest with each other,
(20:57):
with family, with potentialpeople involved in the process.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
Actually being asked, makes us feel seen and it's
like you don't have to tippy-toearound us and it makes us feel
respected right, at least that'show I feel Absolutely around us
and makes us feel respected,right, at least that's how I
feel Absolutely.
I think, rabia, one of themisconceptions out there about
disability is that it's treatedas one experience, when it's in
(21:23):
fact it's very different fordifferent people, for different
disabilities.
Now, how can someone who hasnever been exposed to disability
like approach it in a nuancedway?
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Well, again, we have general values in this society
and I think the youngergeneration today is more open
and has had, if they reflect,someone that they've been
exposed to with a disability,whether it was through school or
through community or throughfamily, so it's more familiar,
(22:01):
it's less taboo if they havebeen brought up in a mainstream,
local context in North America,so they just again can learn
(22:27):
more, reflect on, you know, theidea of our values and how to
reconcile those values withinculture.
Like disability in Islam itjust is Right, Like if Allah is
absolutely flawless.
We are not flawed.
And the references to disabilityin the Quran are very
metaphoric, they're notphysiological.
Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, istalking about the blindness of
(22:49):
you know, the heart and the souland the mind.
He's not talking about you knowthe heart and the soul and the
mind.
He's not talking about you knowthe blindness of your vision.
He's not talking about thephysiological deafness of your
hearing.
He's talking about theideological deafness to hearing
what is true in terms of hisexistence and creation.
(23:10):
You know Allah, Subhan Allah,is not talking about
physiological references todisability.
He's talking fundamentallyabout us not being open-minded
to the truth and justice.
So if we go back to the truthand justice in our traditions,
then there should be no barriertoward looking at his creation.
(23:34):
That just happens to bedifferent.
We are all unique, every one ofus with or without disabilities
, and what people need tounderstand is a disability can
happen to you as well.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
It's a very good point.
Actually, we don't evenconsider it.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
And I remember actually someone my mother was
talking to and she said this tomy mom not a Muslim woman,
actually a Sikh woman, Punjabiand she married a guy that had
schizophrenia.
And my mother said to her didyou know that he had this?
And she said I knew and Iagreed Because, you know,
(24:18):
tomorrow anything can happen toanybody.
I could have married somebodywithout anything and they could
have something tomorrow.
So what's meant to be is meantto be.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
It's a very good way to look at it.
Actually, Life is so unexpected.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
I actually wanted to dive deeper into your personal
journey getting married and talkmore about the component of
family compatibility.
So when your husband showedinterest in you, was there
resistance from his side of thefamily?
And, and if there was, how didyou navigate that without
dismissing the family completely?
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Well, his family wasn't here.
You know, they were happy thathe's in the West and picking a
Muslim that wears hijab.
You know, I had my fears whenwe were traveling there to go
visit his family for the firsttime.
I was like, how's your familygoing to accept me?
You know, I'm not the sameethnicity, I don't speak Arabic,
(25:14):
I'm on top of that, you know,having at that point I had some
functional vision, but notenough.
So I said, you know, and havinglow vision, like how are they
going to take all this?
And he was like you're my wife,you're the mother of my child,
they're going to love you.
And so I literally wascontemplating this driving to
the airport here en route toCairo, and as soon as we got off
(25:39):
the plane, his whole family wasthere and I was in the middle
of a bunch of people that weredoing their best to try to speak
English to me and all Iremember is somebody took my kid
, somebody took my bag, mymother-in-law took one of my
hands and my father-in-law tookmy other hand and walked me out
of that airport and all thatfear in anticipation was gone.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
Wow, wow, sounds like a fairy tale.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Yeah, it does.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
And you know, I mean that was the first time I met
them.
The next time I met myfather-in-law, he was passing
away.
He was very sick and I wastalking to him, joking, having
my sister-in-law translate tohim.
I said you know, baba, you needto get well so you can come to
Canada and you can come and seemy house.
And you know my kids, they drawon the walls and you know
(26:30):
they've discolored everything.
But who cares?
I can't see.
And he said to my sister-in-lawthat she translated to me.
He said to her you don't see,but you see with your heart.
And I love that.
That's like one of the lastthings that he communicated to
me.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
It's amazing finding a family like that.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
Yeah, yeah, it's not a given, unfortunately.
But what would you say tosomebody who's considering
marrying a person withdisability but then their family
starts putting doubts in theirhead and like trying to make
them think more realistically?
If I may say, like for a lackof better term.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Well, be realistic, but put your trust in Allah
subhanahu wa ta'ala, and do youristikhara and educate your
family.
People will come on board ifyou are sure of what you're
doing.
Like you have to be sure ofyour decision, and a big part of
(27:31):
that is your faith.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
You know, you shared your experience from the Muslim
community earlier on and I feellike even now, we as a Muslim
community we haven't really mademuch progress in this space and
that non-Muslims are so muchfurther ahead of us in this kind
of work and just inclusion.
So what are some things that wecan actually learn from
non-Muslims in regards toinclusion, support or just the
(27:56):
whole stigma in relationships?
Speaker 1 (27:58):
We're working on it.
We're working in mainstreamspace and we're also working in
community space.
So, yes, the philosophy isthere in the mainstream, but
there's still a conflict withreality.
That's why there's so muchinvestment and effort made.
There's more openness and maybecommunication we're working
(28:19):
through again at Dean SupportServices and we have something
within Dean through research,our Race and Disability Canada
project, in that in our Race andDisability Canada project we
are trying to work on issues ofintersectionality, like for
people to understand culture anddisability inclusion, for
people to apply principles ofinclusion, diversity, equity and
(28:41):
accessibility wholeheartedly,because the mainstream really
doesn't do well when it comes todiversity and inclusion.
So it's not all a bed of rosesin the mainstream either.
There is a lot of work to bedone.
The challenge for us as acommunity, as Muslims, is we
(29:05):
don't do well when it comes tocollaboration.
We are in that generation wherereally it's about the clicks
and likes and just whatever wecan show off, more than
substance.
This work has to be deep-rootedand substantive.
This work has to be deep-rootedand substantive and we haven't
gone beyond investing in bricksand mortar, reinventing, you
(29:32):
know, the mosque, the school.
We haven't made that full shifttoward programs and services.
We haven't really includedpeople with disabilities in our
institutions.
We think we can do everythingourselves when it comes to our
(29:54):
institutions.
We don't collaborate.
So really shifting attitudes inthe community ensuring greater
inclusion of people withdisabilities has to be led by
disabled people.
Allies and supporters can be apart of it professionals, you
know, families but if weourselves are not doing that
work, it's not going to bringabout that deep shift that we
(30:20):
need in terms of true inclusionand belonging for people with
disabilities within the Muslimcommunity.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
So we need to be leading that movement, just like
with Islamophobia, we need tobe the ones leading the fight
against Islamophobia.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
And we have to come together as people with
disabilities with our livedexperience.
Resources are very limited.
We constantly are finding,especially in Canada.
We're constantly finding globalorganizations trying to come
(30:56):
here because they see a strong,lucrative donor base, but then
that just spreads the potfurther and further and leaves
very little for us to do thework that needs to be done.
People with disabilities andtheir families are very isolated
(31:17):
.
They are desperate.
There's so much need and we'redoing very little to meet that
need just because of scarcity ofresources and lack of
collaboration.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
You mentioned before something about how a sheikh in
the masjid said something thatwas, like you could say,
completely insensitive.
You even mentioned that thetopic of marriage and disability
shouldn't be discussed in likea jum'ah khutbah.
Can you please elaborate alittle bit more about that, in
terms of what our scholars andsheikhs are getting right?
(31:53):
What are they getting wrong?
Speaker 1 (31:56):
Well, I think they're not leveraging the power of the
pulpit.
They have a dedicated audienceevery Friday.
That audience needs positivereinforcement.
It's not the space that we needto preach on deep, deep topics
(32:19):
and bring about deep shifts inunderstanding.
So, you know, it's really aboutempowering people to come back
and learn more and connect more.
It's not the opportunity tojust, you know, shift their
attitude in that 20 minutes, 40minutes, whatever that time
period is.
However, you know we arestarting and we did this first.
(32:42):
You know, as Muslims withdisabilities, we started a
khutbah campaign back in 2009for the International Day of
People with Disabilities.
So we send out talking points,we spread the word locally and
globally to encourage imams tojust talk about disability
(33:07):
generally, so that, you know,people feel a sense of belonging
, people open their hearts andminds and we shift attitudes.
But that's not to say thatthat's where we can talk about
disability and marriage in adeep, meaningful way.
Speaker 3 (33:26):
Yeah, yeah.
I feel sometimes when, likepeople, chefs, leaders or talk
about disability, they talkabout it with the sense of pity.
And then you mentioned, when Iasked you what's the name of
your podcast, you said it's thepity party.
So I guess you're trying tolike poke fun at what's the
reality that's out there.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Absolutely, absolutely and yes, pity is
reinforced constantly.
We have so much work to do toshift attitudes.
We offer accessibility trainingthrough DEEN.
We can do accessibility auditsfor organizations.
We also run this khutbahcampaign to raise awareness and
(34:06):
are happy to, you know, coachimams and khatibs so that their
messaging is the messaging theyneed to be sending out, that's,
you know, truly aligned withIslamic tradition of inclusion
and belonging.
Going back to Surah Abisa, where, you know, rasulullah was
interrupted by Ibn Maktoum andhe frowned and looked away and
(34:30):
Allah revealed verses to educatethe Prophet, in order to
educate us.
And Ibn Maktoum was givenopportunities and you know he
was trusted and he was left incharge of the city of Medina in
the absence of the Prophet.
So, you know, accessibility,inclusion, disability-related
(34:56):
accommodation was exemplified inso many ways at the time of the
Prophet.
It was, you know, addressedthrough Omar ibn Khattab's
journey as Khalifa and supportsand services were present.
And you know, accommodation wesee reflected right from salah.
(35:18):
How you do salah, you know youcan pray standing, if not pray
sitting, pray lying down, likeyou can pray no matter what.
Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, hasaddressed every barrier for us
to engage in his worship.
So accommodation is built in toIslamic tradition and inclusion
(35:40):
is exemplified through theProphet and how he supported and
included people withdisabilities.
We just have to recall that andlearn from it again.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
I like that you mentioned shifting your mindset.
Let's say, someone has neverconsidered marrying a person
with a disability before thisepisode.
What's a better filter to usethan just can this person walk,
see and hear?
Speaker 1 (36:09):
Wow, there are visible and invisible
disabilities and you know,canadian statistics are that 27%
of the population lives with adisability.
And there are things that wedon't consider a disability
right, but they're there.
Somebody could have arthritis,somebody could have you know,
which progressively can resultin barriers in their daily
(36:31):
living activities.
There are undiagnosed thingslike there's.
There's lots of stuff.
You just have to put your trustin Allah SWT when somebody
crosses your path with adisability and you just have to
be open to possibilities.
Don't just put a checklisttogether saying absolutely not,
(36:52):
because you know what you mightdeliberately say absolutely not
and tomorrow something happensin your life to change.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
It's like I was telling him in an episode we
just did recently that you canplan all you want, but Allah is
the best of planners and youjust have to be.
Want, but Allah is the best ofplanners and you just have to be
prepared for when Allahpresents you with the right
opportunity.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
I mean, how many able-bodied parents do we have
out there that end up havingdisabled children?
So it's Allah's will, yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
Alhamdulillah, alhamdulillah for everything you
know, when you were talkingabout inclusion in Ardeen and
how, like, if you can pray,standing pray, sitting pray,
like what I see when I hear thisis that you are just like
anybody else.
You have to pray.
Just because you have adisability doesn't mean you get
a pass.
You have to pray, you have thatresponsibility and there is no
(37:50):
better way to just make a personwith disability feel more like
they are just like anybody elsethan having the same
responsibilities, praying allthe Islamic responsibilities
anybody else has.
But I feel when somebody looksat a person with disability, all
they see is their disability.
They don't see anything elseand it just becomes all about
that.
How can someone see beyond that?
Speaker 1 (38:11):
Well, this is why we need to create opportunities for
people with disabilities tofully participate in our
community, in society, so thattheir abilities are showcased.
Like I said for me, if I walkinto a space and I'm not walking
into that space as the host ofthe event, as the facilitator of
a workshop, as the speaker, asthe presenter, I too am
(38:35):
marginalized as just thatdisabled woman.
All my power is minimized.
I have to walk into that spacewith power, and power comes
through that level ofparticipation.
I was at a wedding party theother night actually, and I sat
at a table where there was agroup of people no real intros
(39:00):
done.
They were all highly educatedprofessionals.
I'm sure they made all kinds ofassumptions about me being
there and maybe thoseassumptions shifted when another
woman came up to me and said oh, I am so glad to see you.
It's been so long.
You know you've done someincredible work that I admire.
What are you doing these days?
(39:20):
Are you still serving ascommissioner with the Ontario
Human Rights Commission?
You know, and I'm sure some oftheir ears might have perked up
and they start to think well,maybe this woman isn't just a
disabled woman.
And remember, those stereotypeseven come from people that you
expect to be informed, like theworst attitudes come from
(39:42):
doctors Right, so I can go to adoctor for whatever health issue
I'm having.
If they do not know me, it'slike oh, you're blind, so you
have no vision.
Oh, I'm so sorry.
And it's like, whoa, you haveno idea who I am, honey, you're
just seeing the hijab, you'reseeing the skin color, you're
(40:03):
seeing the vision loss.
I'm coming in as a patient andyou're writing me off as a
nobody and I'm somebody.
And that's a constant struggle,too, right, because we want to
be humble and yet we are forcedto brag and sell ourselves so
that people don't write us off.
(40:23):
And that's a constant challengefor me, like I always, you know
, want to lowball what I do, butthen there are times when I
have to highlight what I do andit's just such a balancing act
that I don't want to be bragging.
I am not.
I don't like to be that person.
Speaker 3 (40:44):
But you have to prove yourself.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
Yes, after all these years, I still have to prove
myself.
Subhanallah.
Speaker 3 (40:53):
Wow, I think this is a constant theme.
If we're talking about marriage, it's a constant theme.
Like somebody who's divorcedthey have to prove themselves
that they are worthy of loveagain.
Someone who has children theyhave to prove themselves that
they are worthy of love.
Again someone who has children,they have to prove them.
It's um, the.
The marriage scene is,especially in our muslim
community.
It's really messed up.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
And you add disability to that and wow
absolutely, but my, you know my,my one big thing for people
with disabilities out there whowant to get married is know
yourself, be confident, be openand actively search.
Don't let people's attitudesprevent you from what is your
(41:33):
right in this life.
And if Allah has given you thatright, nobody can take it away.
And if he has, you know, hasput somebody out there, then you
need to actively do your partto find them.
Speaker 2 (41:50):
That was actually going to be my next question of
advice you would give to asingle Muslima who's had their
heart broken and just startingto doubt the idea of marriage.
But yeah, that's great advice.
Speaker 3 (42:00):
What about one last advice you can give an abled
person to just broaden theirhorizon in terms of considering
someone maybe with disability?
Speaker 1 (42:10):
Well, again, it comes down to the same thing.
You don't know what life holdstomorrow, right?
Like people with vision loss,some of us are born with it.
Half the student population hasto wear reading glasses in
grade seven in this country, orsomething like that.
Right?
As you age, in your older years, as seniors, vision loss is a
(42:36):
prevalent reality, right?
At least 25% of seniors startexperiencing vision loss, start
experiencing vision loss.
So anything can happen over thecourse of your life.
You can have an accident, anillness, an injury.
(42:56):
Do you not want your spouse tostand by you through that?
Do you not want to picksomebody that you can trust will
be there no matter what?
You have to find more things incommon to build a marriage on.
You have to have shared values,shared beliefs.
Speaker 3 (43:21):
And think about what you can bring to each other, not
what you think is absent.
I love this.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
That's a great mic drop no-transcript to Dean
(43:52):
Support Services and join someof our peer networks and learn
from one another.
Like the best of teachers areourselves as role models to each
other as people withdisabilities.
So we have a network of peoplewith vision loss.
We have a network of peoplewith mobility related
disabilities.
We have a network of caregivers.
These topics are talked aboutin those spaces, so please check
(44:15):
us out at deansupportservicesca.
I'm also, you know, on socialmedia and all over the place and
happy to connect and talk whenI can to people.
I would encourage us workingtogether, Hibban Zayed, to see
how we can make Halal Matchaccessible to people with
disabilities more by helpingshift attitudes in our society
(44:40):
and in our community, in oursociety and in our community.
So always happy to explorepossibilities and we have to
continue to raise awareness andeducate our broader community.
Speaker 3 (44:52):
Absolutely Personally .
I feel I'm not just trying tobe nice I'm sure you've heard it
many times before, but I dohave to say it I feel you are a
source of inspiration.
Inspiration to many people, notjust for people with
disabilities, and I'm reallyhonored that we got the chance
to talk to you and have you onour podcast and I am always
excited to meet incrediblepeople with disabilities doing
(45:16):
incredible things like you.
Speaker 1 (45:17):
Hiba, Thank you.
And Zaid, I love what you guysare doing.
I was so excited to meet youwhen we met and I hope we find
ways to work together in thefuture, so thank you so much for
having me on this podcast.
Speaker 3 (45:27):
Thank you.
Thank you so much for your timeand knowledge.
Thank you to our beautifullisteners and, inshallah, we'll
see you on the next one.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
All right.
As-salamu alaykum.
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