October 27, 2025 • 37 mins
Episode Summary
This episode delves into the realm of accessibility and disability justice, shedding light on personal and professional experiences that shape inclusive environments. Discover how the intersections of movement, mindfulness, and advocacy come together to empower communities and foster systemic change.
Key Discussion Points
Introduction to India Harville: Introduction of India as a disability justice consultant, somatics practitioner, and founder of Embrace Body. Her commitment to inclusiveness, body awareness, and collective healing is highlighted.
Journey Into Disability Advocacy: India shares her personal journey dealing with disability, her positive outlook on using a wheelchair, and the awakening to the need for better accessibility in dance and public spaces.
Challenges with Ableism: Discussion on societal challenges related to ableism, its impact on everyone, and the importance of inclusiveness in business and community practices.
Adapting Dance for Accessibility: India's work in making dance accessible for those with disabilities, emphasizing joy, expression, and community.
Entrepreneurial Journey: Entrepreneurial experiences from running a nonprofit to founding her own consulting and advocacy business. The growth during and after the pandemic, hiring processes, and learning curves.
Building and Leading Teams: Insights into the struggles of hiring the right team, learning how to delegate, and the importance of trusting others' skills and talents.
Overcoming Business Challenges: Strategies for tackling common business difficulties, such as securing executive buy-in for accessibility initiatives and the evolution of hybrid workspaces.
Guest Bio
India Harville: With over two decades of experience, India Harville is a leader in disability justice and embodiment work, guiding organizations to become more inclusive. She holds an BA in Psychology and an MA in Integrative Health Studies, and has impacted countless lives through her work as a somatic educator, dancer, and public speaker.
Recommended Resources
Embrace Body: Visit Embrace Body's website to learn more about India's work.
Danceability Method: Learn about how dance can be inclusive for all types of bodies by searching "Danceability" for more details and training information.
Accessibility Workbook: Download India's workbook on improving accessibility in businesses and organizations.
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About Your Host: Katrina van Oudheusden
Former Chef at Walt Disney World® Resort, Restaurateur, Speaker, and CEO of Truth Bomb Marketing. Katrina is a sought-after consultant for small business growth among female entrepreneurs.
She created a revolutionary business training method called ‘CreatHER™ Business Rewire’. Weaving together time, money, and business growth by preventing burnout and strengthening female leadership skills.
Alongside the CreatHER™ Planner, women are finally experiencing less stress in all areas of their lives. When the focus begins with HERself, women discover a freedom to dream big, increase revenue, and design a marketing strategy that works for them.
CreatHer Money Revolution: http://creathersummit.com
Blog: https://truthbombmarketing.com/blog
CreatHER Planner: https://truthbombmarketing.com/creather-planner-2026
CreatHER Reset: http://truthbombmarketing.com/reset
CreatHER Business Rewire: https://truthbombmarketing.com/creather-business-rewire/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Well, welcome to this episode ofDid she really say that?
And India is going to shock you with some of the conversations
we're about to have because she is absolutely amazing.
So India, Harvell, am I spellingsaying that right?
Harvell OK, going to butcher that.
One is the founder of Embrace Body, a disability justice
(00:23):
consultant, somatics practitioner, massage body
worker, and performance artists committed to helping people
rediscover the wonders of their body.
Now this is going to be a fascinating conversation because
we're not only going to talk business, but we're going to
talk some things that you may not be aware of as a business
owner around disabilities and things that we tend to forget
(00:47):
that I think is going to be a really important conversation
that we have, right. So India for over 2 decades has
guided nonprofits, universities,and organizations through
transformative education on accessibility, inclusiveness,
encouraging deeper embodiment, awareness, and collective
healing. There's so much inside of that
(01:07):
ladies, that I, when you're listening to this, I hope you're
kind of saying this is somebody who's who's moving mountains and
changing lives, right? She's a public speaker
consultant. She works at the intersect of
culture and embodiment, helping communities and institutions
reimagine what it means to create a truly inclusive space.
(01:28):
She pairs us with her work as a dancer, body worker, and a
somatic educator, offering practices that practices that
support resilience, self-expression and connection.
How many of you are kind of likeIndia's in the world?
Thank God for that, right? Loving it.
Her approach integrates movement, mindfulness, and a
(01:50):
therapeutic touch, inviting participants to experience both
personal restoration and community transformation.
And this is one of the things that really drew me to India as
we were talking and we had our meet and greet because there's
just something beautiful about movement, accessibility through
life. And we all do it a little
differently. And I think that's really, and
(02:12):
India will share her story around this, but I think it's
just super important that you guys are aware of just who she
is in the world because she is aforce and she's amazing.
So she holds ABA in, in psychology from New Florida, New
College of Florida and MA in integrative health studies from
California Institute of say thatword for me, integral studies.
(02:38):
Yeah, stumbling through that one.
So, Andy, I am so excited to have you here on our podcast in
this episode. So how did you get into this
study of of really looking at supporting around justice around
disabilities, this kind of advocacy that you're doing?
My goodness. So I would say around 2011, I
(03:00):
have been disabled. As a young person, I didn't
identify that way. That's not how my family kind of
raised me. And so I kind of overlooked that
part of my life. And around 2011, my conditions
got a little bit worse and I started having migraines with
paralysis on one side of my body.
(03:22):
And I was like, whoa, what is going on?
It was actually rather frightening.
I thought it when you first havethis kind of migraine, people
often think they're having strokes or something.
So lots of emergency room visits, lots of trying to figure
out what was going on. But overtime, I just couldn't
move my right side. And for me as a dancer, that was
(03:42):
pretty devastating. I had to stay home for quite
some time because I just couldn't really mobilize myself.
And then I got a wheelchair and I was like, wow, I feel so free.
Exactly. That was exactly how it felt.
And I started doing some rehab and I was able to get back out
into the world. And the 1st place I went, of
(04:03):
course, was dance class, except for I had never noticed this
before, but it was not very accessible.
Like there were stairs that I couldn't get into the dance
studios in my wheelchair. And they were just all of these
obstacles. And then people, people who knew
me, people who I've danced with for years.
(04:24):
And I was like, I'm back. I'm so excited.
And they were like, Oh no, you're wheelchair bound.
That's so sad. And I was like, no, no, this is
great. I'm I wasn't here at all.
This is so good. And they just could not hold
that frame with me. So I was like, oh, this is a
thing. And I from that point on, I was
(04:45):
really committed to educating people to understand ableism and
help make the world more accessible.
And I love. That too, 'cause you talk about,
you hold the frame of mind, you're like, no, I'm free.
Like I can get out and do things.
Before I was like I was at home,I was immobilized.
I couldn't do anything. Now I'm mobile and I think even
for myself, I just, you know, I just don't know how to ask
(05:07):
questions. I don't know if it's offensive
to ask a question like, you know, so I think there's just
this stigma of being like tentative or not wanting to
offend somebody to try to understand where they're coming
from and what they want to experience in the environment
that they're in. Because I think it really is a
conversation and I it's to get into your mindset and I just
(05:31):
love you. You're like, no, I'm here.
Like I can still move. I can still dance.
Like it's just going to look a little different, right?
Absolutely. And you know, disabled people
are like anybody else. There's going to be a lot of
variety around whether people want to talk about it or how
they want to talk about it. And I do encourage people not to
be afraid, but think about a question you might ask someone
(05:53):
else, right? So if you're not going to go up
to someone who's not in a wheelchair and say, hey, how was
your last gynecology appointment, Right?
That's kind of awkward. It's a little personal.
And so maybe the thing that has someone in a wheelchair isn't
like the first conversation you have with them, right?
Like build a little relationship, have a rapport and
then say, hey, are you open to me asking you a few questions
(06:15):
about your disability? And be willing to hear a no.
If they say no, then let it go. And if they're open, then you
know you can learn a little. Bit that way you phrase that so
much better than me. So thank you for your time
because I butchered that completely on this.
Well, I think that's the thing. It's like when you get to have
these conversations, you get to learn how to ask how to bring
(06:35):
things up. Because I just think we, I mean,
I personally, I mean, the only thing I've ever been on is
crutches. And that's even its own obstacle
course in the world of giving access to everything.
So all right, so you got into this business.
What's it been like for you crafting this and being an
advocate for this? Like, what have you learned?
(06:57):
What do we still need to be at work on as a society?
Wow. I think it's interesting how,
you know, I have to be careful when I say this because
sometimes people take it out of context, but ableism as a system
of oppression impacts everyone. And I think that's the part
(07:18):
people forget. Now, I want to be real clear, it
doesn't impact us all the same way or to the same degree, but
understanding how it's impactingyou, whether you identify as
disabled or not, it is really like a critical step that often
gets skipped. And then kind of contextualizing
how much it impacts you comparedto other people would be the
(07:39):
next step that gets missed often.
So really people, I'm excited tosee a change in the world where
more people are like, oh, I might be neurodivergent or I
might have ADHD. So we're seeing a bit of an
opening towards like more acceptance of these things and
(07:59):
the ability to question whether you're impacted or not.
But really everyone living inside of society has unmet
needs. And the way our workforce is set
up, the way even if you're running your own business,
things aren't always designed inthe most optimal way to support
your body, mind, and everyone can benefit from working on that
(08:23):
optimization. So that I think is something as
an important start. And then I guess the second big
category is just like, there area lot of amazing disabled people
in the world, and if they can't access your product, you're
missing a whole community that you could be serving.
And you're not getting the wisdom and the information that
(08:44):
that community has. People often think of disabled
people as like, oh, they don't know anything, or they're not
useful, but you know, inside. Not it at all.
And that's crazy that people still think that.
It might sound shocking, but it's I run into it quite
frequently. Wow.
OK, so I want to dive into kind of your movement with
(09:07):
disability. So you mentioned that you were
in a wheelchair. Are you like, so are you still
there because you're talking about being a dancer.
I find this fascinating because you're talking about the
embodied movement. So talk to me about how you
brought dancing back into those that have like a disability that
they can access this. Share that, share that story
with me. Oh my goodness.
(09:28):
So I have studied many differenttypes of dance, that types of
dance that are designed to make things more accessible for
disabled folks. And so there's a lot of
different tools and techniques that we can use to design
(09:50):
something. And so depending on what
disability you're working with. So for me these days, I'm an
ambulatory wheelchair user, which means I can walk some, but
I still use a wheelchair for long distance always in public.
I actually use a really cool device called a Zine and it's it
(10:12):
brings me up to standing height and I can walk with the support
of the device and it goes all the way down to seated.
So something that's really cool about doing accessible dance is
that a lot of times there's a lot of focus on what you can't.
Do yeah. But there's actually some things
I can do that are really cool and different than what a
(10:36):
standing dancer might be able todo.
So really looking at like the breadth of what is possible and
training towards what's going onwith your particular body mind.
And so I took this training in danceability and I've done a lot
of extensive training in danceability.
(10:58):
And what I love about the danceability method is that you
can find a way to work with any kind of body and introduce
movement and expression. And you know, sometimes movement
when you're disabled is always about a therapeutic game.
That's not our focus. We're much more focused on
(11:18):
self-expression and joy and being in community.
So I feel like there's probably more concrete.
No, but that was so beautiful because I think you, you talk
about like this, this, this way of just moving like I feel it
over here, right? Like when you talk about what's
(11:39):
possible for anybody with any disability, like can we look For
more information on this? Like is there, like you said,
you've researched this, you've you've kind of started
practicing this again or you've you've been in this modality.
So remind me again, because I did not write this in my notes
because I'm like, I'm snowballing this right now, but
it's So what is it that you you've studied?
It was. Oh, so many things.
(12:01):
This is what I was just talking about was dance.
Ability. So, dance ability.
Yeah, you can Google that and it'll come right up.
Dance Exchange has a really amazing accessible tool kit that
I work with a lot. And then I could name 100
different things. OK, so let's talk to you as a
businesswoman. So we're going to shift gear.
(12:22):
So there's what you've created and then there's a business
behind this, right? So talk to me about how the
creation of this business got formed.
Like what have you learned around this journey of designing
this business and then the accessibility of it?
Well, I think it's been a wild ride.
(12:46):
And there have been I'm. Going to stop you right here.
So were you in the corporate space at one point and became an
entrepreneur or have you always been an entrepreneur?
I was always in the nonprofit sector, so I'm always an
entrepreneur, but I didn't really come from corporate.
So but I've been in the nonprofit world and an employee
(13:07):
for many years and that wasn't really working for me.
Like disability wise, it wasn't accessible for me.
And so I was struggling. In fact, you know, I have
seasonal related aspects to my condition.
And so it would be sometimes I would be like, OK, I might make
(13:27):
it through this job for half of the year or 3/4 of the year, and
then I'm gonna probably get fired.
And that did happen a few times.And that's a part of what made
me realize that I needed to design my own schedule.
Of course, then I became an entrepreneur and started working
all of the time, so. Funny how that goes, isn't it?
You're like, I want more time, freedom, and then you find
(13:49):
yourself working twice as hard in this place.
Yeah, but I had a couple of friends who were like, hey, you
could do some public speaking, you could do some education on
disability justice, combine it with the embodiment work that
you do. And that would really be an
amazing offering in the world and might help you make some
(14:12):
money, even though like a nine to five job isn't going to work
for you. And so I started off really
slowly. I started doing some of those
things, crafted a talk, revised it, those types of things.
And at first my company was pretty small.
I did that and then I saw disabled clients for massage and
semantics and I taught some dance classes and that was kind
(14:34):
of the extent of the business for a lot of years.
Fast forward to the pandemic andof course, everything went
online. And I actually like committed to
not going back to working at a nonprofit job.
And the company just sort of expanded pretty quickly from
(14:58):
there. And because I think, well,
remember in 2020, everyone had alot of time, yes.
And people weren't necessarily like going to work because of
the pandemic. And so people organizations were
like, we could do a lot of education right now.
(15:19):
We can't do much else. And so the demand for learning
about disability justice actually went up considerably,
coupled with the fact of the fact that DEI, which is now a
dirty word, but DEI at that timereally had resurgence, right?
(15:41):
And so people were also saying like, hey, we're dealing with
racism, but we also need to address ableism.
And so I was called in a lot on for that as well.
So that happened. And then the arts world also
really turned to working with disabled dancers, and I got a
lot more opportunities in that sector as well.
(16:03):
That is crazy. When I think about how it, it
seems like you were teaching like the classrooms and the
speakings and then the demand for disability justice and what
it is and how do you bring it into the work culture.
What were some of the the challenges, some of the top
challenges you saw companies struggle with having consulted
(16:25):
or work with them? Like what were some of the
things they were bumping up against?
I'm curious and you generalize. I don't need specifics on anyone
company but. Well.
It's like, wait a minute. So often, you know, I don't
think this will come as any shock, but you know, maybe your
HR level brings me in, your program manager brings me in and
(16:45):
there's not buy in in the executive suite.
And so that would happen over and over again.
The staff would really see the value in this and executive
suite did not and I would be in awkward positions because I need
to speak to both. Groups, yeah.
And what I need to say to each group was slightly different and
(17:07):
somewhat contradictory in some ways.
So for example, if I have an executive suite that's fighting
me and is against this, the way in is for me to say, hey, this
will improve your bottom line. That's not why I'm doing this.
That's not even the orientation.That's what they want to hear.
But that's what they want to hear to have buy in.
And so if that's the way to comein, then I can get in and then
(17:28):
we can do the actual work and people change and grow, right?
But if the staff hears that they're like, no, you're a
seller. And I'm like, I'm doing this for
you to do this work, the real work that you want to do because
that's what I believe in. But I have to, they have to sign
off on this, you know, So I would say those were like my
(17:51):
biggest challenges across every organization all of the time.
I could say that. So with the move to a lot of
online training, were there anything in the disability range
that really kind of, and I couldprobably point to this to myself
Even. So there's a lot of things that
shifted because captions didn't exist on video at the extent
(18:11):
they do now until like 2020. Like it then became a almost
like mandatory if you're going to post a video, have captions.
So share with me some of the things that kind of went into
play or that we really an awareness of it came really to
light in transitioning a lot of jobs, a lot of people into the
to the digital zoom space. I mean, there was some really
(18:36):
sad things that happened and some really amazing things that
happened. So a lot of disabled people have
been asking to work from home for decades and have been told
it's not possible, it cannot be done.
And then when it was like helpful for the bottom line and
a necessity for the work world, capitalism figured it out very
(18:58):
quickly. And so that that's not hard,
right? And then I'd say for some
people, as people are starting to go back into the workplace,
not being able to maintain the option to work from home has
been challenging. So that was one of the the
harder lessons. But then I would say some things
we learned that were unexpected and useful.
(19:21):
One, being online, like for people like me, where working
from home is really helpful for my physical health.
It was a game changer. I didn't know, like my whole
life, I'm an ambivert and I readas an extrovert, but I'm really
introverted secretly, and I didn't know that being at home
(19:44):
all the time was going to be my jam.
Like I was going out. I thought I loved going out
until I couldn't. And then I was like, wow,
working from home really works for me.
And then you have people who areon the opposite camp, which was
also useful information for somepeople, whether they had ADHD,
whether they just do better within person contact.
(20:07):
Some people hate it working fromhome and really wanted to go
back into the office. And so like the birth of hybrids
and the birth the really, I think we really learned how to
do good hybrid. Zoom work inside of the pandemic
or towards the second-half of the pandemic.
(20:27):
And so that has been an incredible learning.
And now there's so much more advancement in how to run good
hybrid events, because before weweren't really making it was 1.
Or the. Other.
Yeah, yeah. And it's still tough, but
goodness, we learned so much about that.
So business is growing. What?
(20:48):
So you are by yourself? We're just solo entrepreneur,
single entrepreneur. Then you have business growth.
What did it look like to then have that influx like hiring
people? Oh what a learning curve.
So it had been like, my spouse works in the business as well
(21:11):
and we were used to being like amom and pop team.
And before things expanded so much, we could handle everything
ourselves. And we tried to keep that going
well past its prime and started to really get burned out.
And then that can impact my health.
So I had to be really careful. And even then I was like, well,
(21:36):
maybe we just slowed down. Like hiring a team never seemed
like the right plan. And looking back on it, I'm
like, that was rather foolish. I waited probably too long to
move into hiring. And I I had a lot of fear, you
know, like, will I be able to pay these people?
Like, you know, it was just so much.
And I think having been such a small company, I hadn't done any
(22:00):
education on how to be a manageror what it takes, you know, I
was terrified about running payroll and understanding the
taxes and, you know, just all ofthose types of things.
So when I finally brought on people, I was like, wow, this is
going to be great. And I was like, we're a family.
(22:22):
And that was another learning. I like the culture of my team is
very close knit and that I want to keep and we do look out for
each other, but this is where can we have some things we need
to accomplish. And so I brought in some people
on my team who were not the bestfit.
(22:42):
They didn't know how to, I mean,like every part of this is a
learning curve, right? I didn't know how to interview
well, my goodness, all the time I wasted with people who just
didn't even show up for interviews.
So learning how to make my screening process, learning, you
know, even to have a buffer and have someone else on the team do
a first round interview. So the people who are coming to
(23:05):
me are really strong candidates.Like all every part of this
process was a learning curve. And unfortunately I brought in a
whole team that actually wasn't able to execute, which, you
know, in the back of my mind, right, maybe this was self
fulfilling prophecy. I was like, I can't delegate
(23:27):
because no one's going to do it properly.
And then I hired a team of people who would not do it
properly and I was like, see, delegating is trash.
I'm going to start doing it all again.
So then went tried to go back, but by that point we were way
too big and I started finding quality hires and really OK.
(23:47):
So I don't want to make it soundlike I just like learned and
screw I also. Screwed up.
Got it. I'm really sick.
So I hired some great people andthey recommended other great
people. Yeah.
Then I had this great team, but we hadn't done a lot of team
building or training or anythinglike that.
And then I just got sick and I got so sick.
I was like out for 6-7 months and I basically had to be like,
(24:14):
figure it out and do what you can.
And then I came back and I was like, God, y'all did so much
better than I would have. Y'all are doing like, wow, all
these things you took away from me, I was never meant to be
doing in the 1st place. And now we're building systems
around those things. I'm like, you know, I have as
(24:34):
the executive director, I need to understand everything that's
happening at least to an extent and I to know where to go and
how to do it if someone's out. But I don't ever want to take
back those tasks that's. My plate?
Thank God they're somebody else's.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I think that points to
(24:57):
something that we talk about as women is so many times we're
afraid to let go 'cause nobody can do it better than you,
right? Like that?
Is yeah, and it's. True for all of us, 'cause
there's a, there's a capacity inour background in what we've
learned that we bring to the table.
And I think one of the interesting things I had
somebody say to me, a mentor of mine way back when we were
(25:18):
handing off, he was handing off his workshop, right?
When you hand over a high end, high level mentorship workshop,
there is definitely a fear that you're going to screw up the
whole process, right? Are they going to get the same
information? And I just remember him pulling
my aside. He's like, it wasn't exactly how
I would have presented. But if you can, you delivered
(25:38):
80% of what I would deliver, 20%was your own.
And that made it unique to me. As long as you can look at
having somebody in that can do 80%, you open up the creativity
for them to look at things differently than I think you can
look at yourself. Yeah, I mean, and that's where I
feel like my team has excelled because they, you know, for
(26:02):
example, like marketing, not my area of expertise, my marketer
chef's kiss. And I'm not going to fight her
about things because she's goingto know better than me, right?
Where it really shows up is in my subject matter expertise.
How do I bring people on the team who are training in that or
who have their own background inthat?
And that's where this feeling ofyou'll never quite do it like
(26:25):
me, but there's some amazing medicine in the way you do it.
You're going to speak to a different audience.
And also like, I think that there's, I don't know, sometimes
I get like, I, I decided not to attend something yesterday
(26:49):
evening that I usually like lead.
And in my absence, the feedback on the team was really, really
strong. And sometimes, you know, it's
good to check your ego, like 100% of your content isn't the
best content. Other people have good content
(27:10):
too, and to let that shine. And so I was even reminded of
that just last night. I think that's part of being a
business owner. As you do bring people on, you
start to go to your next level, right?
Like India's leveling up. And I think that's even for
myself, like Katrina levels up. Every time I bring somebody in,
(27:32):
I hand something up, I get to play at the next level.
And I think that's something that we don't recognize when
we're in the trenches as the employee of our business, right?
We don't get to continue to growand evolve what we're building.
And I think that's kind of one of the, those areas where you
(27:52):
look at it and you're like, ah, you know, I get to, I get to
play a different game now. So I love it.
Thank. I mean, you've shared some great
insight. What did it feel like to fire
your first employee? Everyone always asks cuz this is
one of your biggest fear factors.
(28:13):
Ladies, I can hear it over here.It's like, I don't want to fire
anybody. Like, come on, laughing.
Out because of that fear I kept people longer than was good and
I mean in reality it wasn't goodfor us and it wasn't good for
them either just really wasn't agood fit and you know I wanted
(28:33):
to make sure that I was doing itright.
I, I have a payroll company and I checked in with them to make
sure I was like crossing all my TS and batting all my eyes and,
you know, had a little paper trail.
And it, it made me realize that again, moving away from only
(28:58):
thinking of this like a little family and really thinking of it
like a business. And that helped me tremendously.
And my first time firing someone, I was so nervous.
I like you would think I was getting fired versus doing the
firing and like the person. It was a little bit of a mixed
(29:23):
bag how they received the information and, but I'm
ultimately, I feel like hindsight, I think they
understood why it happened and we're actually still in
communication. So it, it was harrowing, but we
(29:44):
made it through. And then because I had hired the
wrong team, there was a combination of quitting and
firing. So I got to level up that skill
and now it's less daunting, yes.I will say that when I had to
fire the somebody for the first time, I think I was like, yo, I
was more nervous about I think Iwas, I thought I was firing
myself at that point in the room.
(30:04):
I'm like, so we're sitting down.I'm like, I'm getting fired.
Like that's how it worked up. I was around that conversation.
So I can fully relate to that piece.
Any last words of wisdom a Jewish impart on the women that
are listening as they're building businesses?
Something that has really just kind of stuck with you, like
(30:24):
what would that be? I.
Think it would have helped me tohear that.
We're all bumbling through this.And I think when you're an
entrepreneur, there's a sense that everyone else has it
figured out and they know what they're doing.
(30:45):
It's just that they're not like talking to you about it in the
moment. Like we're all in the steep
learning curve and learning these things and so find other
folks to talk to about it and normalize like conversations
about these things that feel kind of hard 'cause you can be
real isolated as an entrepreneurand think you're going through
(31:08):
it by yourself. Yeah, that is actually the one
of the most profound things I discovered when I was working
with a company and we were coaching clients that were
making seven and eight figures. It was the same conversation I
was having with somebody just getting started.
Like I was shocked because I waslike, but you're making so money
(31:28):
is not an evaluation of somebody's business savviness.
I will tell you that right now, right, dollars in the bank
account do not equate to business savviness.
And I think this is one of the reasons why I see over time, a
lot of people make money and people lose money, right?
Because the mind shift that you talk about is such a critical
(31:49):
piece. It's going from an employee
mindset to a business owner mindset and you look at things a
little differently. Can you take some of your
experiences as an employee whichyou liked, what you didn't like?
Yes, but I think it's just part of that journey.
And I love that you shared this journey with us cuz this was
just brilliant. So we talk about kind of as a
(32:10):
gift for our audience of women that you have something that's
really going to help them talk about accessibility.
So for women, because I know youguys are all at heart, so there
are definitely challenges. There are things you can be
looking at in your business. And I think the India's got
like, I love this because it's like give you an awareness look.
(32:31):
So let's talk a little bit aboutthis accessibility workbook that
you put together for them. Yeah.
So I think a lot of times when people like women who are coming
from the heart, who really care about folks have realized that
their business may not be accessible for disabled people,
(32:51):
they feel sort of, again, it's very daunting.
There's some shame that can comeup.
They feel like maybe they shouldknow this already and you really
shouldn't. Like this information is not
easily accessible. It's not out there.
And so I designed this workbook for folks who are just for the
first time maybe, or very early in their journey thinking about,
(33:13):
oh, accessibility and how do I approach that?
And so I have a love hate relationship with checklist.
I think sometimes they make us feel like we've accomplished the
thing and accessibility is more complicated than that.
But as a starting place to have some kind of support and a
(33:34):
system that walks you through and some checklists to help you
think about which elements of accessibility you're not
exploring yet can be really useful.
And so I've put that together. Is this accessibility like
workbook for both physical and virtual space?
Absolutely. So accessibility happens across
(33:54):
every aspect of your business. And so I'm trying to speak to a
little bit across all of the different places from your
website to your social media to like your back of office work to
your client facing work, all of it.
There's a place to think about accessibility.
(34:15):
Yeah, I think, and I'll just quickly drop this for those of
you that do a lot of image marketing right, especially on
websites and I think India can talk to this too, there is an
alt text section. Now in the world of marketing,
we're taught to SEO the crap outof this section for visibility,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But this alt text section is
(34:35):
actually geared for the disability and being able to
describe what the image is. Is that correct?
Absolutely. And so something that you can
try usually if you have a your Mac or even there's like little
apps you can turn on, you can turn on something called a
(34:56):
screen reader and it will read your screen to you and just go
through a website and have that screen reader read.
So if the alt text is describingthe image, you'll get a
description of the image. Otherwise, you might get some
SEO optimization or some garbling goop.
And then you can understand thatif you're a blind or low vision,
(35:19):
you're not going to experience that image or know what's there.
And so if I'm coming to your website and I'm blind and I
wanna learn about your service and you're communicating a lot
through your visuals, I'm not having that experience.
And so really, you're missing out a market there.
You're missing out on a community that your work could
impact. And it's pretty simple just to
(35:41):
learn to to add that alt text and then you know, more website
accessibility from there. But that's a great first step.
Yeah. Like those little things, since
we don't think about it and there's so many nuances to now
marketing, especially when you're looking at that inclusive
inclusiveness and just making itaccessible to more people
because for a while there, it was very limited in who could
(36:03):
access and what they were getting access to.
So India, I want to thank you somuch for being on our podcast.
And just in this episode of did she really say that?
Because yeah, yeah, she did. She says, actually, India said
you need to brush up on being more, you know, aware.
And she's calling me out on it. I, she's not going to call you
out. I'll call you out on it.
(36:23):
I'm going to call myself out on it.
So let's be honest, it's something that as a business
owner, I think we can all raise our level awareness around and
just know that, you know, like she said, business is a growth
process. You're learning as you go.
So same thing for when you're bringing on information about
accessibility for disabilities. She's an advocate.
(36:46):
If you have questions, reach back out to her.
She's going to be a fabulous resource for you.
Keep her in your your pockets. Save her information that's
going to be down in the show notes.
Follow her and just really, you know, learn from her because I
really love the voice and what you're bringing into the world.
So thank you for just being someone who's got a mission
(37:09):
that's really beautiful and so impactful.
And your ability to present it is just so I want to say
eloquent is the word that comes up when I look at you.
So thank you. Thanks for having me.
Absolutely. So if you all enjoyed this
episode of Did She Really Say That?
Give this a thumbs up, Follow India, connect with her,
(37:29):
download, get access and we'll see you on the next episode.
Well, welcome to this episode ofDid she really say that?
And India is going to shock you with some of the conversations
we're about to have because she is absolutely amazing.
So India, Harvell, am I spellingsaying that right?
Harvell OK, going to butcher that.
One is the founder of Embrace Body, a disability justice
(00:23):
consultant, somatics practitioner, massage body
worker, and performance artists committed to helping people
rediscover the wonders of their body.
Now this is going to be a fascinating conversation because
we're not only going to talk business, but we're going to
talk some things that you may not be aware of as a business
owner around disabilities and things that we tend to forget
(00:47):
that I think is going to be a really important conversation
that we have, right. So India for over 2 decades has
guided nonprofits, universities,and organizations through
transformative education on accessibility, inclusiveness,
encouraging deeper embodiment, awareness, and collective
healing. There's so much inside of that
(01:07):
ladies, that I, when you're listening to this, I hope you're
kind of saying this is somebody who's who's moving mountains and
changing lives, right? She's a public speaker
consultant. She works at the intersect of
culture and embodiment, helping communities and institutions
reimagine what it means to create a truly inclusive space.
(01:28):
She pairs us with her work as a dancer, body worker, and a
somatic educator, offering practices that practices that
support resilience, self-expression and connection.
How many of you are kind of likeIndia's in the world?
Thank God for that, right? Loving it.
Her approach integrates movement, mindfulness, and a
(01:50):
therapeutic touch, inviting participants to experience both
personal restoration and community transformation.
And this is one of the things that really drew me to India as
we were talking and we had our meet and greet because there's
just something beautiful about movement, accessibility through
life. And we all do it a little
differently. And I think that's really, and
(02:12):
India will share her story around this, but I think it's
just super important that you guys are aware of just who she
is in the world because she is aforce and she's amazing.
So she holds ABA in, in psychology from New Florida, New
College of Florida and MA in integrative health studies from
California Institute of say thatword for me, integral studies.
(02:38):
Yeah, stumbling through that one.
So, Andy, I am so excited to have you here on our podcast in
this episode. So how did you get into this
study of of really looking at supporting around justice around
disabilities, this kind of advocacy that you're doing?
My goodness. So I would say around 2011, I
(03:00):
have been disabled. As a young person, I didn't
identify that way. That's not how my family kind of
raised me. And so I kind of overlooked that
part of my life. And around 2011, my conditions
got a little bit worse and I started having migraines with
paralysis on one side of my body.
(03:22):
And I was like, whoa, what is going on?
It was actually rather frightening.
I thought it when you first havethis kind of migraine, people
often think they're having strokes or something.
So lots of emergency room visits, lots of trying to figure
out what was going on. But overtime, I just couldn't
move my right side. And for me as a dancer, that was
(03:42):
pretty devastating. I had to stay home for quite
some time because I just couldn't really mobilize myself.
And then I got a wheelchair and I was like, wow, I feel so free.
Exactly. That was exactly how it felt.
And I started doing some rehab and I was able to get back out
into the world. And the 1st place I went, of
(04:03):
course, was dance class, except for I had never noticed this
before, but it was not very accessible.
Like there were stairs that I couldn't get into the dance
studios in my wheelchair. And they were just all of these
obstacles. And then people, people who knew
me, people who I've danced with for years.
(04:24):
And I was like, I'm back. I'm so excited.
And they were like, Oh no, you're wheelchair bound.
That's so sad. And I was like, no, no, this is
great. I'm I wasn't here at all.
This is so good. And they just could not hold
that frame with me. So I was like, oh, this is a
thing. And I from that point on, I was
(04:45):
really committed to educating people to understand ableism and
help make the world more accessible.
And I love. That too, 'cause you talk about,
you hold the frame of mind, you're like, no, I'm free.
Like I can get out and do things.
Before I was like I was at home,I was immobilized.
I couldn't do anything. Now I'm mobile and I think even
for myself, I just, you know, I just don't know how to ask
(05:07):
questions. I don't know if it's offensive
to ask a question like, you know, so I think there's just
this stigma of being like tentative or not wanting to
offend somebody to try to understand where they're coming
from and what they want to experience in the environment
that they're in. Because I think it really is a
conversation and I it's to get into your mindset and I just
(05:31):
love you. You're like, no, I'm here.
Like I can still move. I can still dance.
Like it's just going to look a little different, right?
Absolutely. And you know, disabled people
are like anybody else. There's going to be a lot of
variety around whether people want to talk about it or how
they want to talk about it. And I do encourage people not to
be afraid, but think about a question you might ask someone
(05:53):
else, right? So if you're not going to go up
to someone who's not in a wheelchair and say, hey, how was
your last gynecology appointment, Right?
That's kind of awkward. It's a little personal.
And so maybe the thing that has someone in a wheelchair isn't
like the first conversation you have with them, right?
Like build a little relationship, have a rapport and
then say, hey, are you open to me asking you a few questions
(06:15):
about your disability? And be willing to hear a no.
If they say no, then let it go. And if they're open, then you
know you can learn a little. Bit that way you phrase that so
much better than me. So thank you for your time
because I butchered that completely on this.
Well, I think that's the thing. It's like when you get to have
these conversations, you get to learn how to ask how to bring
(06:35):
things up. Because I just think we, I mean,
I personally, I mean, the only thing I've ever been on is
crutches. And that's even its own obstacle
course in the world of giving access to everything.
So all right, so you got into this business.
What's it been like for you crafting this and being an
advocate for this? Like, what have you learned?
(06:57):
What do we still need to be at work on as a society?
Wow. I think it's interesting how,
you know, I have to be careful when I say this because
sometimes people take it out of context, but ableism as a system
of oppression impacts everyone. And I think that's the part
(07:18):
people forget. Now, I want to be real clear, it
doesn't impact us all the same way or to the same degree, but
understanding how it's impactingyou, whether you identify as
disabled or not, it is really like a critical step that often
gets skipped. And then kind of contextualizing
how much it impacts you comparedto other people would be the
(07:39):
next step that gets missed often.
So really people, I'm excited tosee a change in the world where
more people are like, oh, I might be neurodivergent or I
might have ADHD. So we're seeing a bit of an
opening towards like more acceptance of these things and
(07:59):
the ability to question whether you're impacted or not.
But really everyone living inside of society has unmet
needs. And the way our workforce is set
up, the way even if you're running your own business,
things aren't always designed inthe most optimal way to support
your body, mind, and everyone can benefit from working on that
(08:23):
optimization. So that I think is something as
an important start. And then I guess the second big
category is just like, there area lot of amazing disabled people
in the world, and if they can't access your product, you're
missing a whole community that you could be serving.
And you're not getting the wisdom and the information that
(08:44):
that community has. People often think of disabled
people as like, oh, they don't know anything, or they're not
useful, but you know, inside. Not it at all.
And that's crazy that people still think that.
It might sound shocking, but it's I run into it quite
frequently. Wow.
OK, so I want to dive into kind of your movement with
(09:07):
disability. So you mentioned that you were
in a wheelchair. Are you like, so are you still
there because you're talking about being a dancer.
I find this fascinating because you're talking about the
embodied movement. So talk to me about how you
brought dancing back into those that have like a disability that
they can access this. Share that, share that story
with me. Oh my goodness.
(09:28):
So I have studied many differenttypes of dance, that types of
dance that are designed to make things more accessible for
disabled folks. And so there's a lot of
different tools and techniques that we can use to design
(09:50):
something. And so depending on what
disability you're working with. So for me these days, I'm an
ambulatory wheelchair user, which means I can walk some, but
I still use a wheelchair for long distance always in public.
I actually use a really cool device called a Zine and it's it
(10:12):
brings me up to standing height and I can walk with the support
of the device and it goes all the way down to seated.
So something that's really cool about doing accessible dance is
that a lot of times there's a lot of focus on what you can't.
Do yeah. But there's actually some things
I can do that are really cool and different than what a
(10:36):
standing dancer might be able todo.
So really looking at like the breadth of what is possible and
training towards what's going onwith your particular body mind.
And so I took this training in danceability and I've done a lot
of extensive training in danceability.
(10:58):
And what I love about the danceability method is that you
can find a way to work with any kind of body and introduce
movement and expression. And you know, sometimes movement
when you're disabled is always about a therapeutic game.
That's not our focus. We're much more focused on
(11:18):
self-expression and joy and being in community.
So I feel like there's probably more concrete.
No, but that was so beautiful because I think you, you talk
about like this, this, this way of just moving like I feel it
over here, right? Like when you talk about what's
(11:39):
possible for anybody with any disability, like can we look For
more information on this? Like is there, like you said,
you've researched this, you've you've kind of started
practicing this again or you've you've been in this modality.
So remind me again, because I did not write this in my notes
because I'm like, I'm snowballing this right now, but
it's So what is it that you you've studied?
It was. Oh, so many things.
(12:01):
This is what I was just talking about was dance.
Ability. So, dance ability.
Yeah, you can Google that and it'll come right up.
Dance Exchange has a really amazing accessible tool kit that
I work with a lot. And then I could name 100
different things. OK, so let's talk to you as a
businesswoman. So we're going to shift gear.
(12:22):
So there's what you've created and then there's a business
behind this, right? So talk to me about how the
creation of this business got formed.
Like what have you learned around this journey of designing
this business and then the accessibility of it?
Well, I think it's been a wild ride.
(12:46):
And there have been I'm. Going to stop you right here.
So were you in the corporate space at one point and became an
entrepreneur or have you always been an entrepreneur?
I was always in the nonprofit sector, so I'm always an
entrepreneur, but I didn't really come from corporate.
So but I've been in the nonprofit world and an employee
(13:07):
for many years and that wasn't really working for me.
Like disability wise, it wasn't accessible for me.
And so I was struggling. In fact, you know, I have
seasonal related aspects to my condition.
And so it would be sometimes I would be like, OK, I might make
(13:27):
it through this job for half of the year or 3/4 of the year, and
then I'm gonna probably get fired.
And that did happen a few times.And that's a part of what made
me realize that I needed to design my own schedule.
Of course, then I became an entrepreneur and started working
all of the time, so. Funny how that goes, isn't it?
You're like, I want more time, freedom, and then you find
(13:49):
yourself working twice as hard in this place.
Yeah, but I had a couple of friends who were like, hey, you
could do some public speaking, you could do some education on
disability justice, combine it with the embodiment work that
you do. And that would really be an
amazing offering in the world and might help you make some
(14:12):
money, even though like a nine to five job isn't going to work
for you. And so I started off really
slowly. I started doing some of those
things, crafted a talk, revised it, those types of things.
And at first my company was pretty small.
I did that and then I saw disabled clients for massage and
semantics and I taught some dance classes and that was kind
(14:34):
of the extent of the business for a lot of years.
Fast forward to the pandemic andof course, everything went
online. And I actually like committed to
not going back to working at a nonprofit job.
And the company just sort of expanded pretty quickly from
(14:58):
there. And because I think, well,
remember in 2020, everyone had alot of time, yes.
And people weren't necessarily like going to work because of
the pandemic. And so people organizations were
like, we could do a lot of education right now.
(15:19):
We can't do much else. And so the demand for learning
about disability justice actually went up considerably,
coupled with the fact of the fact that DEI, which is now a
dirty word, but DEI at that timereally had resurgence, right?
(15:41):
And so people were also saying like, hey, we're dealing with
racism, but we also need to address ableism.
And so I was called in a lot on for that as well.
So that happened. And then the arts world also
really turned to working with disabled dancers, and I got a
lot more opportunities in that sector as well.
(16:03):
That is crazy. When I think about how it, it
seems like you were teaching like the classrooms and the
speakings and then the demand for disability justice and what
it is and how do you bring it into the work culture.
What were some of the the challenges, some of the top
challenges you saw companies struggle with having consulted
(16:25):
or work with them? Like what were some of the
things they were bumping up against?
I'm curious and you generalize. I don't need specifics on anyone
company but. Well.
It's like, wait a minute. So often, you know, I don't
think this will come as any shock, but you know, maybe your
HR level brings me in, your program manager brings me in and
(16:45):
there's not buy in in the executive suite.
And so that would happen over and over again.
The staff would really see the value in this and executive
suite did not and I would be in awkward positions because I need
to speak to both. Groups, yeah.
And what I need to say to each group was slightly different and
(17:07):
somewhat contradictory in some ways.
So for example, if I have an executive suite that's fighting
me and is against this, the way in is for me to say, hey, this
will improve your bottom line. That's not why I'm doing this.
That's not even the orientation.That's what they want to hear.
But that's what they want to hear to have buy in.
And so if that's the way to comein, then I can get in and then
(17:28):
we can do the actual work and people change and grow, right?
But if the staff hears that they're like, no, you're a
seller. And I'm like, I'm doing this for
you to do this work, the real work that you want to do because
that's what I believe in. But I have to, they have to sign
off on this, you know, So I would say those were like my
(17:51):
biggest challenges across every organization all of the time.
I could say that. So with the move to a lot of
online training, were there anything in the disability range
that really kind of, and I couldprobably point to this to myself
Even. So there's a lot of things that
shifted because captions didn't exist on video at the extent
(18:11):
they do now until like 2020. Like it then became a almost
like mandatory if you're going to post a video, have captions.
So share with me some of the things that kind of went into
play or that we really an awareness of it came really to
light in transitioning a lot of jobs, a lot of people into the
to the digital zoom space. I mean, there was some really
(18:36):
sad things that happened and some really amazing things that
happened. So a lot of disabled people have
been asking to work from home for decades and have been told
it's not possible, it cannot be done.
And then when it was like helpful for the bottom line and
a necessity for the work world, capitalism figured it out very
(18:58):
quickly. And so that that's not hard,
right? And then I'd say for some
people, as people are starting to go back into the workplace,
not being able to maintain the option to work from home has
been challenging. So that was one of the the
harder lessons. But then I would say some things
we learned that were unexpected and useful.
(19:21):
One, being online, like for people like me, where working
from home is really helpful for my physical health.
It was a game changer. I didn't know, like my whole
life, I'm an ambivert and I readas an extrovert, but I'm really
introverted secretly, and I didn't know that being at home
(19:44):
all the time was going to be my jam.
Like I was going out. I thought I loved going out
until I couldn't. And then I was like, wow,
working from home really works for me.
And then you have people who areon the opposite camp, which was
also useful information for somepeople, whether they had ADHD,
whether they just do better within person contact.
(20:07):
Some people hate it working fromhome and really wanted to go
back into the office. And so like the birth of hybrids
and the birth the really, I think we really learned how to
do good hybrid. Zoom work inside of the pandemic
or towards the second-half of the pandemic.
(20:27):
And so that has been an incredible learning.
And now there's so much more advancement in how to run good
hybrid events, because before weweren't really making it was 1.
Or the. Other.
Yeah, yeah. And it's still tough, but
goodness, we learned so much about that.
So business is growing. What?
(20:48):
So you are by yourself? We're just solo entrepreneur,
single entrepreneur. Then you have business growth.
What did it look like to then have that influx like hiring
people? Oh what a learning curve.
So it had been like, my spouse works in the business as well
(21:11):
and we were used to being like amom and pop team.
And before things expanded so much, we could handle everything
ourselves. And we tried to keep that going
well past its prime and started to really get burned out.
And then that can impact my health.
So I had to be really careful. And even then I was like, well,
(21:36):
maybe we just slowed down. Like hiring a team never seemed
like the right plan. And looking back on it, I'm
like, that was rather foolish. I waited probably too long to
move into hiring. And I I had a lot of fear, you
know, like, will I be able to pay these people?
Like, you know, it was just so much.
And I think having been such a small company, I hadn't done any
(22:00):
education on how to be a manageror what it takes, you know, I
was terrified about running payroll and understanding the
taxes and, you know, just all ofthose types of things.
So when I finally brought on people, I was like, wow, this is
going to be great. And I was like, we're a family.
(22:22):
And that was another learning. I like the culture of my team is
very close knit and that I want to keep and we do look out for
each other, but this is where can we have some things we need
to accomplish. And so I brought in some people
on my team who were not the bestfit.
(22:42):
They didn't know how to, I mean,like every part of this is a
learning curve, right? I didn't know how to interview
well, my goodness, all the time I wasted with people who just
didn't even show up for interviews.
So learning how to make my screening process, learning, you
know, even to have a buffer and have someone else on the team do
a first round interview. So the people who are coming to
(23:05):
me are really strong candidates.Like all every part of this
process was a learning curve. And unfortunately I brought in a
whole team that actually wasn't able to execute, which, you
know, in the back of my mind, right, maybe this was self
fulfilling prophecy. I was like, I can't delegate
(23:27):
because no one's going to do it properly.
And then I hired a team of people who would not do it
properly and I was like, see, delegating is trash.
I'm going to start doing it all again.
So then went tried to go back, but by that point we were way
too big and I started finding quality hires and really OK.
(23:47):
So I don't want to make it soundlike I just like learned and
screw I also. Screwed up.
Got it. I'm really sick.
So I hired some great people andthey recommended other great
people. Yeah.
Then I had this great team, but we hadn't done a lot of team
building or training or anythinglike that.
And then I just got sick and I got so sick.
I was like out for 6-7 months and I basically had to be like,
(24:14):
figure it out and do what you can.
And then I came back and I was like, God, y'all did so much
better than I would have. Y'all are doing like, wow, all
these things you took away from me, I was never meant to be
doing in the 1st place. And now we're building systems
around those things. I'm like, you know, I have as
(24:34):
the executive director, I need to understand everything that's
happening at least to an extent and I to know where to go and
how to do it if someone's out. But I don't ever want to take
back those tasks that's. My plate?
Thank God they're somebody else's.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I think that points to
(24:57):
something that we talk about as women is so many times we're
afraid to let go 'cause nobody can do it better than you,
right? Like that?
Is yeah, and it's. True for all of us, 'cause
there's a, there's a capacity inour background in what we've
learned that we bring to the table.
And I think one of the interesting things I had
somebody say to me, a mentor of mine way back when we were
(25:18):
handing off, he was handing off his workshop, right?
When you hand over a high end, high level mentorship workshop,
there is definitely a fear that you're going to screw up the
whole process, right? Are they going to get the same
information? And I just remember him pulling
my aside. He's like, it wasn't exactly how
I would have presented. But if you can, you delivered
(25:38):
80% of what I would deliver, 20%was your own.
And that made it unique to me. As long as you can look at
having somebody in that can do 80%, you open up the creativity
for them to look at things differently than I think you can
look at yourself. Yeah, I mean, and that's where I
feel like my team has excelled because they, you know, for
(26:02):
example, like marketing, not my area of expertise, my marketer
chef's kiss. And I'm not going to fight her
about things because she's goingto know better than me, right?
Where it really shows up is in my subject matter expertise.
How do I bring people on the team who are training in that or
who have their own background inthat?
And that's where this feeling ofyou'll never quite do it like
(26:25):
me, but there's some amazing medicine in the way you do it.
You're going to speak to a different audience.
And also like, I think that there's, I don't know, sometimes
I get like, I, I decided not to attend something yesterday
(26:49):
evening that I usually like lead.
And in my absence, the feedback on the team was really, really
strong. And sometimes, you know, it's
good to check your ego, like 100% of your content isn't the
best content. Other people have good content
(27:10):
too, and to let that shine. And so I was even reminded of
that just last night. I think that's part of being a
business owner. As you do bring people on, you
start to go to your next level, right?
Like India's leveling up. And I think that's even for
myself, like Katrina levels up. Every time I bring somebody in,
(27:32):
I hand something up, I get to play at the next level.
And I think that's something that we don't recognize when
we're in the trenches as the employee of our business, right?
We don't get to continue to growand evolve what we're building.
And I think that's kind of one of the, those areas where you
(27:52):
look at it and you're like, ah, you know, I get to, I get to
play a different game now. So I love it.
Thank. I mean, you've shared some great
insight. What did it feel like to fire
your first employee? Everyone always asks cuz this is
one of your biggest fear factors.
(28:13):
Ladies, I can hear it over here.It's like, I don't want to fire
anybody. Like, come on, laughing.
Out because of that fear I kept people longer than was good and
I mean in reality it wasn't goodfor us and it wasn't good for
them either just really wasn't agood fit and you know I wanted
(28:33):
to make sure that I was doing itright.
I, I have a payroll company and I checked in with them to make
sure I was like crossing all my TS and batting all my eyes and,
you know, had a little paper trail.
And it, it made me realize that again, moving away from only
(28:58):
thinking of this like a little family and really thinking of it
like a business. And that helped me tremendously.
And my first time firing someone, I was so nervous.
I like you would think I was getting fired versus doing the
firing and like the person. It was a little bit of a mixed
(29:23):
bag how they received the information and, but I'm
ultimately, I feel like hindsight, I think they
understood why it happened and we're actually still in
communication. So it, it was harrowing, but we
(29:44):
made it through. And then because I had hired the
wrong team, there was a combination of quitting and
firing. So I got to level up that skill
and now it's less daunting, yes.I will say that when I had to
fire the somebody for the first time, I think I was like, yo, I
was more nervous about I think Iwas, I thought I was firing
myself at that point in the room.
(30:04):
I'm like, so we're sitting down.I'm like, I'm getting fired.
Like that's how it worked up. I was around that conversation.
So I can fully relate to that piece.
Any last words of wisdom a Jewish impart on the women that
are listening as they're building businesses?
Something that has really just kind of stuck with you, like
(30:24):
what would that be? I.
Think it would have helped me tohear that.
We're all bumbling through this.And I think when you're an
entrepreneur, there's a sense that everyone else has it
figured out and they know what they're doing.
(30:45):
It's just that they're not like talking to you about it in the
moment. Like we're all in the steep
learning curve and learning these things and so find other
folks to talk to about it and normalize like conversations
about these things that feel kind of hard 'cause you can be
real isolated as an entrepreneurand think you're going through
(31:08):
it by yourself. Yeah, that is actually the one
of the most profound things I discovered when I was working
with a company and we were coaching clients that were
making seven and eight figures. It was the same conversation I
was having with somebody just getting started.
Like I was shocked because I waslike, but you're making so money
(31:28):
is not an evaluation of somebody's business savviness.
I will tell you that right now, right, dollars in the bank
account do not equate to business savviness.
And I think this is one of the reasons why I see over time, a
lot of people make money and people lose money, right?
Because the mind shift that you talk about is such a critical
(31:49):
piece. It's going from an employee
mindset to a business owner mindset and you look at things a
little differently. Can you take some of your
experiences as an employee whichyou liked, what you didn't like?
Yes, but I think it's just part of that journey.
And I love that you shared this journey with us cuz this was
just brilliant. So we talk about kind of as a
(32:10):
gift for our audience of women that you have something that's
really going to help them talk about accessibility.
So for women, because I know youguys are all at heart, so there
are definitely challenges. There are things you can be
looking at in your business. And I think the India's got
like, I love this because it's like give you an awareness look.
(32:31):
So let's talk a little bit aboutthis accessibility workbook that
you put together for them. Yeah.
So I think a lot of times when people like women who are coming
from the heart, who really care about folks have realized that
their business may not be accessible for disabled people,
(32:51):
they feel sort of, again, it's very daunting.
There's some shame that can comeup.
They feel like maybe they shouldknow this already and you really
shouldn't. Like this information is not
easily accessible. It's not out there.
And so I designed this workbook for folks who are just for the
first time maybe, or very early in their journey thinking about,
(33:13):
oh, accessibility and how do I approach that?
And so I have a love hate relationship with checklist.
I think sometimes they make us feel like we've accomplished the
thing and accessibility is more complicated than that.
But as a starting place to have some kind of support and a
(33:34):
system that walks you through and some checklists to help you
think about which elements of accessibility you're not
exploring yet can be really useful.
And so I've put that together. Is this accessibility like
workbook for both physical and virtual space?
Absolutely. So accessibility happens across
(33:54):
every aspect of your business. And so I'm trying to speak to a
little bit across all of the different places from your
website to your social media to like your back of office work to
your client facing work, all of it.
There's a place to think about accessibility.
(34:15):
Yeah, I think, and I'll just quickly drop this for those of
you that do a lot of image marketing right, especially on
websites and I think India can talk to this too, there is an
alt text section. Now in the world of marketing,
we're taught to SEO the crap outof this section for visibility,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But this alt text section is
(34:35):
actually geared for the disability and being able to
describe what the image is. Is that correct?
Absolutely. And so something that you can
try usually if you have a your Mac or even there's like little
apps you can turn on, you can turn on something called a
(34:56):
screen reader and it will read your screen to you and just go
through a website and have that screen reader read.
So if the alt text is describingthe image, you'll get a
description of the image. Otherwise, you might get some
SEO optimization or some garbling goop.
And then you can understand thatif you're a blind or low vision,
(35:19):
you're not going to experience that image or know what's there.
And so if I'm coming to your website and I'm blind and I
wanna learn about your service and you're communicating a lot
through your visuals, I'm not having that experience.
And so really, you're missing out a market there.
You're missing out on a community that your work could
impact. And it's pretty simple just to
(35:41):
learn to to add that alt text and then you know, more website
accessibility from there. But that's a great first step.
Yeah. Like those little things, since
we don't think about it and there's so many nuances to now
marketing, especially when you're looking at that inclusive
inclusiveness and just making itaccessible to more people
because for a while there, it was very limited in who could
(36:03):
access and what they were getting access to.
So India, I want to thank you somuch for being on our podcast.
And just in this episode of did she really say that?
Because yeah, yeah, she did. She says, actually, India said
you need to brush up on being more, you know, aware.
And she's calling me out on it. I, she's not going to call you
out. I'll call you out on it.
(36:23):
I'm going to call myself out on it.
So let's be honest, it's something that as a business
owner, I think we can all raise our level awareness around and
just know that, you know, like she said, business is a growth
process. You're learning as you go.
So same thing for when you're bringing on information about
accessibility for disabilities. She's an advocate.
(36:46):
If you have questions, reach back out to her.
She's going to be a fabulous resource for you.
Keep her in your your pockets. Save her information that's
going to be down in the show notes.
Follow her and just really, you know, learn from her because I
really love the voice and what you're bringing into the world.
So thank you for just being someone who's got a mission
(37:09):
that's really beautiful and so impactful.
And your ability to present it is just so I want to say
eloquent is the word that comes up when I look at you.
So thank you. Thanks for having me.
Absolutely. So if you all enjoyed this
episode of Did She Really Say That?
Give this a thumbs up, Follow India, connect with her,
(37:29):
download, get access and we'll see you on the next episode.
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