December 17, 2025 • 41 mins
Episode Summary
In this engaging episode of "Did She Really Say That?", host Katrina van Oudheusden sits down with the dynamic Jen Coken, a seasoned coach and advocate for women in leadership. Together, they unravel the nuanced world of imposter syndrome, reframing it as a potential superpower rather than a hindrance. Through personal anecdotes and professional insights, they explore how women can navigate, embrace, and overcome the barriers of self-doubt, perfectionism, and societal expectations to emerge as leaders in their own right.
Key Discussion Points
Introduction to Imposter Syndrome: Exploring how this "phenomenon" can be transformed into a strength, empowering women to leverage it as a catalyst for growth.
Defining Moments: Jen introduces the concept of identifying pivotal moments that shaped one's imposter fears, typically occurring before age 17.
Overcoming Internal Barriers: Strategies for women to redefine productivity, confront perfectionism, and assert their influence in leadership roles.
Cultural Shifts Needed in Business: Discussing the importance of a supportive corporate culture that allows women to thrive in C-suite roles without compromising personal life.
Leadership Development: Jen's initiative for creating a pipeline to prepare women for leadership positions, ensuring they are C-suite ready.
Creating Community and Influence: The significance of supportive networks among women, fostering mutual growth and understanding.
Guest Bio
Jen Coken is an executive coach and imposter syndrome expert. With over two decades of experience in coaching leaders across various industries, she brings invaluable insights on turning challenges into triumphs. Jen is also an accomplished author and speaker, advocating for authentic leadership and cultural change within corporate structures.
Recommended Resources
Book: "Make Imposter Syndrome Your Superpower" by Jen Coken - Purchase the book
Quiz: Discover your personal imposter syndrome flavor through Jen’s quiz - Take the Quiz
This episode is a must-listen for any woman ready to turn her perceived weaknesses into powerful assets and step confidently into leadership roles. Tune in to hear practical strategies, empowering stories, and enjoy the spirited camaraderie between Katrina and Jen as they champion for a world where authenticity shines in every aspect of life and leadership.
Thanks for listening! If you are enjoying our podcast, leave a comment below. We love hearing from our fans and other female entrepreneurs! We are collaborating to make business better for every woman! Feel free to share this podcast on your favorite social platform. And if you are listening on any of the podcast platforms, we would love it if you could post a 5-star review. Please, help us get our message out! Together, we discover how each woman has the power to unlock another woman when we are open about what we are redefining as women in business.
About Your Host: Katrina van Oudheusden
Former Chef at Walt Disney World® Resort, Restaurateur, Speaker, and CEO of Truth Bomb Marketing. Katrina is a sought-after consultant for small business growth among female entrepreneurs.
She created a revolutionary business training method called ‘CreatHER™ Business Rewire’. Weaving together time, money, and business growth by preventing burnout and strengthening female leadership skills.
Alongside the CreatHER™ Planner, women are finally experiencing less stress in all areas of their lives. When the focus begins with HERself, women discover a freedom to dream big, increase revenue, and design a marketing strategy that works for them.
CreatHer Money Revolution Summit:
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Well, welcome to this episode ofDid she really say that?
And honestly, you're going to find yourself saying this a lot
in your head as you talk to Jen and you hear what the
conversation we're having today because it's all about imposter
syndrome, yet with A twist. It's about it being your
superpower. Like ladies, how many of you
(00:24):
have imposter syndrome around self doubt and confidence?
How many you have self who have issues with perfectionism?
Any females out there have perfectionism issues?
You're going to love this conversation and you know that I
love working with women and helping you plan time and
productivity. The Create Her Planner is out
now for sale. You guys know all about it.
(00:45):
It is changing and evolving the whole process of how women view
time and productivity, giving you Peace of Mind to really
enjoy your confidence, reduce your perfectionism, and get your
leadership underway. So Jen, this is the perfect time
for this conversation. And who is Jen?
I'm so glad you all asked all mylisteners and audience.
She's a leader expert, She's an executive coach.
(01:08):
She's basically a badass, right?She's a comedian.
So it means that she's got a great sense of humor.
We all love improv. If you don't love improv, you
should, right? She's a powerhouse and we're
going to talk about how to turn your imposter syndrome into your
superpower, right? So for over 2 decades, she's
(01:29):
coached thousands of leaders. Ladies like she is the one to go
to. She's going to help you really
understand your influence because you're building a
business. So gosh darn it, you have
influence. And whether you believe it or
not, you do. So let's create lasking impact
while keeping our sanity intact.Boom, right share her bold
(01:51):
mission is to help create a world where everybody feels at
home in themselves with themselves by themselves.
I love it. All right, so it's not time to
play small ladies. You know we don't do that on.
Did she really say that? So, Jen, thank you so much for
joining us here on our show today.
I'm so excited to be here just because of the name of your
(02:12):
podcast, because people often say to me, did you really say
that? I'm like, yes, I did.
Yes, you did. So let's talk about this whole
imposter syndrome. How did you get into this
business of imposter syndrome? Like, tell us a little bit about
your back journey. Yeah, OK, so I grew up, you
(02:32):
know, I forgot. Is this video, audio, or both?
It's both. OK, good.
So people will see. But for video folks, I'm air
quoting air. Quotes.
In politics, I spent 25 years asa grassroots organizer working
at every level of politics, getting people elected, passing
issues, blah, blah, blah. A lot of it within energy,
environmental movement, and, andpretty much I was the only woman
(02:54):
out there, right. So at the same time I was doing
that, I was also coaching for one of the largest professional
coaching organizations as a volunteer.
Oh Lord, you weren't even getting paid, did she?
Really say that. Did she really say that?
You weren't coaching, volunteering at a big like,
coach? Oh lordy, 30 hours.
(03:15):
You weren't even getting paid for that, were you?
For 18 years but I got trained AF.
Yeah, you did. You did.
That's how come I can say I've coached 10,000 leaders because
that was going on at the same time right around 2015.
I loved the organization. It was very head based, very and
you know, it was very NLP, neurolinguistic programming, very
(03:37):
thought based and neuroscience, which I'm a geek.
I'm a neuroscience nerd, so I don't mind that.
But but. It was at a point where I wanted
to bring in divine feminine and energetic work and spiritual
work and so. That doesn't fit in that space.
By the way, if I if you're, if you're in a large program like
that, the that typically from that far back does not embrace
(03:58):
that type of thinking. Exactly.
So I said peace out, had my NDA for a year.
And then I thought at the time Iwas working in the energy
industry, you know, one of the few women at the top in the
organization. I thought I was a badass.
Yeah, Going to retire from there.
And I walked in on a Monday and my boss slid the folder over to
(04:21):
me and he said, I'm sorry, can we swear on this podcast of.
Course we can swear on this podcast.
Did she really see it has got some fucking swearing on here?
OK good so he slides his folder over me using sorry your
services are no longer needed. I go get the fuck out because I
was a huge money maker for the organization and he goes no has
nothing to do with your performance.
What they had realized was I hadkept pounding them like PNL by
(04:46):
office, not by company, PNL by office.
I got to know what my numbers are.
I got to know what I'm doing here, what I'm pricing things at
so I can make sure there's a profit in each of the individual
offices. No, it's a fine.
Let us let us boys worry about it.
Oh Lord. It was almost like.
Pat on the head like it's okay little girl, you don't
(05:06):
understand numbers, Remember? Girls aren't good at math.
That BS you've been told for decades and centuries.
Yeah, crap. Anyway.
Anywho, so they had decided to reorganize because they realized
my particular program that I hadstood up, which was a municipal
lobbying arm for the solar company, was no longer
profitable. So they went, they tried it for
(05:27):
like a year, I want to say, and then they'd went solely to
commercial where they're still making money that way.
OK, I actually stayed because they were laying off half my
team. I was like, look, dude, to my
boss, I said, let me lay them off.
I don't want them hearing it from anyone else.
Plus, I have a few things to kind of close out because in
every, as a grassroots organizer, your job is to
(05:47):
replace yourself. So any company I've ever worked
for, I make sure that all the pieces are put there so someone
else can walk in and take over. Yeah.
Did all that. Whatever.
The next day my first book came out.
When I die, take my panties. I love it.
You didn't tell me about this book when we first chatted.
(06:08):
Well, it's now a movie script that we're shopping around.
Yes. So when that happened, it kind
of, you know, it was like, OK, wait a minute, maybe there's a
because. So my mom passed from ovarian
cancer and I felt like this mustbe a sign my job is to educate
people about ovarian cancer because she was diagnosed stage
4 as what most women were. Lo and behold, 3 women that
(06:30):
heard me speak with my book werediagnosed stage 1.
You know, thank God, unheard of.But then when I'm this is like,
you know, but I'm moving throughmy severance because I'm not
making any money. One of my coaches turned to me
and said, you know, you got to start making money.
I was like, I'm really tell me something else.
I don't know. Did you really say that?
(06:50):
Yes, yeah. And so I said, well, the thing
that I'm most passionate about is coaching.
So let me go back to coaching. But here's where the imposter
syndrome came in. I didn't know who I was separate
from that company. Well, it was my voice.
What was my thought leadership? How was I, what were my coaching
frameworks? It was really difficult for me
(07:12):
to figure out where who I was atthat time.
And as I began dealing with the outfall of that, the feelings,
the doubt, the perfectionism, the the God, can I really put
that content out there? Can I really say?
That can I get somebody to pay me this price for this?
(07:33):
Can I be am I open to receiving this type of money into my all
of those questions? Exactly.
I began to get really interestedin where the heck does this all
come from? You know, I'm not a therapist.
And for those listening, hopefully people, I'm just going
to distinguish between therapy and coaching because I think
it's, it's important to do, you know, therapists,
psychotherapists, etcetera. Number one, you know, they're
(07:57):
credentialed or they have their medical degree and they're
dealing with the past. They're dealing with what has
you be the way you are today. And, and I'm just saying that in
a very broad brush stroke where coaches are aspirational, where
do you want to get to? And what I have found in the
work I do is people's language tells me a lot.
(08:17):
Oh yes. And so I was like, OK, well,
what am I saying to myself and where does that come from?
And that's when I kind of began to realize, OK, this is what
people called imposter syndrome.And what I took it back to was
what I call a defining moment. So what I have discovered over
the decades of me coaching people is that for the most part
(08:40):
people have like 5 what I would call case issues or defining
moments. 5 things that happened before the age of 17 when our
brain, brains are truly still forming that work.
Not trauma, not something deep and dark, but something quick
that happens. In a where?
What's that? It's like it.
Happens in a second. It's.
(09:01):
Happens in a second. It's.
A very specific moment. Very specific moment and the
brain decides something because what's happening is the brain's
job is to keep the thing it's a brain of alive, which is you,
right? So it's constantly determining
threat, but it can't determine between psychological and
physical, and the brain's never dealing with reality.
Never. Never, never, never.
(09:24):
It's it's only ever dealing withits interpretation of reality
and comparing and contrasting itto the information already in
its head. Because I'm saying it, because
human beings are human beings. So what I drew my piece back to
was when I was six years old, I was in love with this boy named
Keith and so did was my best. Friend hot as fuck.
(09:46):
He was six years old. He had big black glasses and I
had glasses and he was adorable.And yes, I mean, he was a little
boy so it's like hard for me to say.
Was he hot as fuck? He was adorable in my mind.
Little black glasses. Wore this bright blue beanie to
school with his little corduroy jacket, and he smiled a lot.
He was a really nice kid, you know?
(10:07):
But my best friend Michelle was in love with him too, and we
decided we were going to figure out who he liked by chasing him
around the playground to see whohe would kiss.
Because that's what you do at six.
True story, yes. It's true.
So we did. And Michelle, you know, we we
caught him and Michelle puckeredup and he kissed her cheek and I
(10:30):
puckered up and he went, EW. And he ran away.
And at that time, this kid, Jerry Johnson, who was like
Cootie boy, kissed me on the cheek and said, I'll kiss you
and ran away. And I at that time, what my
little mind remembers is the entire playground laughing at
me. And I just wanted to fall into
the earth and be swallowed up. And the decision I took is I'm,
(10:52):
I'm not going to be out in front.
I'm not going to, you know, be the like, I'm not going to get
embarrassed like that again because the brain is interacting
with the unwanted emotions the body is experiencing.
And what I chose was I'm just going to be funny and I'll be
the funny sidekick and 2nd in command.
And if, and the reason I say it's my superpower is because if
(11:13):
you look at my career, all I've ever done was stand up other
people, get other people elected, start nonprofits for
other people. Super successful.
I mean, I I actually ran one of the most successful grassroots
organizing campaigns in the country, according to some
researcher at University of Iowa.
Wow. It was never for me.
It was for somebody else. Yeah.
(11:34):
Moment was me and my brand and my identity.
It was like words were caught inmy throat.
Yeah. How many women that are
listening to this can relate to that?
All of a sudden, you're at this point where you're like, how do
how do I separate myself? Because I am the same way.
I did the same thing. I was really good at promoting
everybody else. But when it came time, Jen, for
(11:54):
me to promote me, I was like, like, I clammed up and I was
like, whoa, what just happened there?
Yeah. Exactly.
And it was almost like I had to begin.
Do you remember, did you have these?
We like toothpaste tubes used tobe metal back in the day.
I'm totally showing my age. And there was a toothpaste key
that you had to, like, wind it up.
Yeah, it. Wind like I haven't.
(12:15):
Yeah, toothpaste key around my throat to wind the words out of
my throat, you know, And so it became a muscle for me to
practice because here we've identified this brain pattern.
We've disrupted it. Now we need to establish a new
brain pattern yes. And so who was I going to be in
the matter of that moment when Ifeel like I want to retract, I'm
(12:39):
going to be brave or courageous.I think was what I created.
So I just began trying to be courageous and saying the thing
anyway without fear and waiting for the fallout and it never
came. I mean, I haven't maybe I'm not
popular enough to have too many trolls, but I'm sure there's
people that don't agree with my content.
But I've never backed down from how I talk or drop in the
(13:00):
occasional F bomb. In fact, I just send an e-mail
or I'm setting up an e-mail for Sunday that has an F bomb in
there because it was a client who was trying to contort
herself to be in a room where the dude in the room was
embarrassed because she knew more than him.
And she was like, and I'm tryingto figure out, you know, like
how to say these things. And I go fuck him.
(13:23):
Your job is not to make that dude feel more comfortable.
I'm sorry. No, it's, it's, no, that's The
thing is so many times we will minimize ourselves trying to
make somebody else feel better. And, and it's contortion.
It's, it feels so inauthentic because here on one side we're
saying, Hey, women, you have a voice.
Be your authentic self. And yet we, we get into
(13:45):
situations where we feel like wecan't be like we're, we're
literally bumping up against. But the one thing we're saying
is like, this isn't us. And I'm still doing or following
into a habit of trying to peopleplease want to do that should be
first and foremost pleasing myself.
Absolutely. And and the thing that I find,
(14:07):
you know, I always say leadership's an inside job.
We got to start with unearthing your authentic power, who you
want to be when you're true to yourself.
And that starts with identifyingthose moments that have defined
us where we limit ourselves. But then we got to let start
looking at the patriarchal constructs that we're operating
inside of, that we think are true and somehow also are
(14:27):
limiting. But those limits are invisible.
We've just bought the. We bought.
We drank the Kool-aid. We drank the kool-aid, we bought
the kool-aid, we drank the kool-aid absolutely.
And it's and it's untangling that.
It's almost like, you know, a tech bunch of cords that you had
that behind your television or whatever, They're all.
(14:47):
Tangled up, it's like, have you ever seen the elephant?
How they train elephants not to move right.
So there's like the so an elephant you can, you can,
they'll wear like a cuff around their, their leg and they'll be
just like a stake maybe hit three times into the ground.
This element is bigger than thatstake.
It's got a chain on there. But it's belief system is
because when they were small, every time it tried to pull it
(15:09):
was in cement. It couldn't move it forward.
But as it got older and never learned that that cement no
longer exists. Right.
Yeah. And so now they have the power
to literally just lift their legand wander off wherever they
want. But as we've been just
conditioned and I, we use this alot in the parallel in the
(15:31):
entrepreneurial world, sometimeswe've been just so conditioned
that we can't do more or we can't take our power and just
move and do something differently.
We just stay because we think we're bound by some arbitrary BS
construct of how business life and money.
Work. Yeah.
And how marketing works or how whatever.
(15:52):
Yeah, I always, I always use theexample of fleas in a jar, the
way they train circus fleas as they have the lid and the fleas
can only hit as high as the top of the jar.
You remove the lid, the fleas are only jumping.
And that's what we do. Yeah.
You know, so people have women Iknow who are very successful on
top of their game have stopped speaking up in meetings.
(16:13):
You know, I had somebody come tome.
I was at an event. I was speaking at an event in
Colorado and she said something about how she's in a meeting,
she's had a marketing introduced.
I was like, look, this is where we need to be.
These are the metrics, yadda, yadda, yadda.
People kind of looked at her with a blank face.
Her boss, the CEO repeated it. Everyone was like, Oh my God.
And I said to her, I go, so he peeded you.
She goes, what? I go.
(16:34):
He didn't repeat. He, he peeded, didn't repeat it.
He, he peeded. That's my new phrase.
He peeded. He peed.
Stop repeating me. Stop mansplaining.
Stop repeating me. Yeah.
Yeah, but so I started testing this theory that I did on myself
of this defining moment and begin leveraging that tool with
all of my clients and to AT women were identifying those
(16:58):
defining moments and I can unlock that defining moment for
somebody in one session. Oh easily, easily.
And then I usually say it takes like two more sessions because
then we're gonna, you're gonna go out and.
Practice. Yeah, you're gonna come back, et
cetera. So at least three sessions with
that. But to AT, when I speak, I do a
(17:18):
5 minute meditation that gets people back to their defining
moment. It works in rooms of 1000.
It works one-on-one. And it's always something that
happens either in your relationship to authority or
your experience of belonging before the age of 17.
Yep, I think mine was around 8 do.
(17:42):
You know what it was? Did we?
Talk about this before. No, we've never talked about
this before. The the situation though, in, in
the outcome of this was basically I could not speak up
without hurting everybody in my family.
Whatever I had to say was going to hurt my siblings, was going
to hurt my parents. And I, I felt like if I had
(18:04):
spoken up, I would do more damage than good.
So I learned to silence my voice.
After that, I got really quiet, and I stopped speaking up
because I was afraid. I knew the power of my voice had
the power to hurt. And truth was apparently a very
painful thing. That was the belief.
So like, yeah, like you talk about, it's like in, in a
(18:25):
second, something that my mom said to me, she says if you do
this, this will happen. And in that moment, I made
everything. I made myself wrong for even
creating an awareness, and in such effect that I locked myself
away and said I'll never speak my truth again.
Yeah. It's, you know.
(18:45):
And it was just, what's so interesting is going back and
having those conversations and asking what everyone else's
experience was that wasn't theirs.
My mom has no recollection at that time, right?
Does he remember that? Conversation but it.
Literally had a like instant impact on me.
And so I definitely, you know, Jen, I've gone through and done
a lot of, we're gonna continue to do that because that voice,
(19:08):
that little 8 year old girl, she, I've gotta keep reminding
myself to pull her out of the closet because when I found her,
she was literally underneath thestaircase in a dark room with no
light on. And I was like, holy crap, what
did I do to you? And so it's a lot of self love.
It is a lot of self love. It's also remembering that that
can the reason people deal. And by the way, it's not a
syndrome, it's a phenomenon. It's an imposter syndrome is a
(19:31):
medical diagnosis. So let's talk about that too.
However, I mean, that's all I need to say about that.
But I think it is remembering that comes about because we have
an amygdala. We have an amygdala because we
have a brain. It will get triggered in anytime
the brain thinks it is not safe,so that even if you've discerned
it now, some new circumstance could come along.
(19:53):
You're absolutely. Oh wait a minute, that's that 8
year old girl that's not real. That surprised because I think
at the time when I was doing self development, I thought I
was fixing myself air quotes foreverybody who's not watching.
Yeah, I went to self developmentto get fixed.
Like there's something broken inme.
And really, it took me a good while to get out of my own way
and just recognize that exactly who I am is perfect the way I
(20:15):
am. And I'm just going to show up
habitually in certain ways and just noticing it faster.
Yes, it came exactly like you start to notice when you're, you
know, getting asking yourself questions around your
leadership, when you start doubting yourself and you start
getting into perfection mode andyou're looking at how that's
helping or hindering you, right?Yep.
(20:36):
And so, but you start to recognize it faster and faster.
And faster. And that is the name of the game
that is that I've told people I go just because you've you've
identified this, you've unearthed this.
Now, just because we've excavated this does not mean
it's going away. I thought it did.
I thought for sure I could have put like a little like check
mark. So that's yeah.
Man, I wish, I wish. I mean it still happens to me,
(20:59):
right? I always joke and say I'm either
like the bull in the China shop or standing behind somebody
else. And that, and that's what I've
said to people. You know, once you I see this
brain pattern, it's like you hada car that that went and drive
in reverse and you didn't realize if you went left there
in the mountains and if you wentright, there's the ocean.
There's a whole world out there.But without realizing it, we
(21:19):
limit ourselves and then we hit the limit of our limiting
beliefs. So you're right.
It is the game is how quick can we see it?
How quick can we see it? Yeah.
Where can we? How?
Quick, are you to sit in the poopy diaper before you realize
you're sitting in a poopy diaper?
I do. Squishing my poopy diaper.
Yeah, here. I'm sitting in my own shit here.
Here we go. And you know what they actually
(21:40):
call that? I was actually read a book.
She calls it Swamping. Swamping.
Swamping so she invites women togo and marry me in whatever.
Like upset because you really can't stand it for very long.
And when you acknowledge it and you have to spend time with it,
you're like almost disgusting with yourself after.
Like, you probably could do it alittle bit longer the first
(22:00):
time, but after a while it gets really like, this is stupid.
Like I'm sitting here in my own shit swamping and being upset
about this and I'm like, and I'mdone.
OK, moving on. What's next?
Exactly. It's actually something I tell
the managers that I'm that I coach.
When they have people that come to them that are negative all
the time. I go look, next time here's what
you're going to do. Go to the dollar store and get a
(22:23):
fake little bucket, you know a kids sand bucket, a a cute
little bucket you'd put on, you know you'd put on display with
candy in it, blah blah blah and just put on their verbal vomit
bucket. People come into your office,
you go good, you got 5 minutes here's the bucket, go.
I promise you they won't be ableto talk for the full 5 minutes,
but make them, make them. You still have time.
(22:44):
Keep bitching, go ahead, keep going, keep going, keep going,
keep going. You done, you're done.
Are we done are we done Good good.
Now let's actually talk about the stuff that makes the
difference. You feel better No, you don't
because you spitting out all theverbal spewing, you know, puking
that stuff up yes sometimes, butmostly, as you pointed out, we
(23:05):
we shy away from the experience of being sad, lonely, worried.
You know, if that's. Because you shouldn't be sad,
lonely, depressed, shouldn't be like.
Quitting. On yourself.
Yeah. Stop shitting all over yourself.
Yeah, I love that phrase. I'm like, stop shitting on
yourself. Yeah.
I don't know what you think you should be doing.
Yeah, it's crazy. So imposter syndrome.
(23:27):
So your training around this really is helping.
Now you are working with women. I know we talked about that one.
That's like you. You're really because I feel
like we are definitely. I feel like we go back and
forth, we get a decade ahead, we're like 2 decades behind.
Well, let's not even go there onthis conversation right now, but
absolutely, absolutely. I know, I know.
(23:48):
Yeah. I because, you know, my mom
retired from NASA, OK. I was in.
It was. It's funny because in hindsight,
I'm like, holy crap. I've been like the lone woman
and many of these rooms and I just didn't give a fuck.
Yeah. I just, I didn't care what I
said to people. I mean, I was kind about it for
the most part. Sometimes I wasn't.
But I would say what everybody else was thinking, right.
(24:12):
So for me, when I went into coaching and, you know, you have
to find your ideal client because you can't be everything
to everybody. You're not a jar of Nutella
first. Yeah.
That's true. You really?
Are a bottle of. Tequila for everybody.
Trust me, you can't swear it. Some people, they get a little
hurt and intimidated. I get it.
Exactly. So I was like, OK, well, who are
the people that are most important to me?
(24:33):
And that was making sure more women get to the C-Suite and if
they're not in the C-Suite, makesure more women are getting into
leadership positions. That's what became most
important to me. And what it starts with always
is the inner game of leadership.And that's where a world of
people at home with themselves when we are confident in who we
are, when we have have embraced as you did and every aspect of
(24:58):
ourselves, good, bad, ugly, different, whatever it is when
we have then discovered what it means when we feel true.
What does it mean when we like, how do we feel when we're
really, you know, if I think about on a daily basis, I woke
up into this experience of just incredibly filled with love when
I woke up this morning, like community, that's all my life is
(25:20):
about really is creating communities of women.
Because what astonishes me time and again when I bring women
together in cohorts, they I havetwo women right now.
They're in one of my groups. One's AVP of guest experience
for a big hospitality company. The other one's an out of work
IT person and they're dealing with the same stuff And like
what? Wait, how can that be?
(25:42):
And I love when women see themselves in each other.
So that's why my work has focused.
When I go into companies, I willcoach whoever you know was in
the company. I'm not going to tell people
like I'm only dealing with womenon the leadership team.
The leadership team needs help. The leadership team needs help.
The yeah, everybody on the leadership team will then need
help. It's that's a right that's a
whole other level of conversation.
(26:03):
Yep, Yep, Yep, Yep, yeah, yeah, But So what is the one of the
you're talking about getting like more women into C, into
C-Suite. Are we keeping women there?
Because a lot of the times I hear from men, especially in
some of the like, I would say, Italked to the gentleman that was
a lawyer and he says, I love women that, you know, raise up
there, but they're just not staying at that, that level.
(26:24):
Like they're something comes in or they, you know, they get
married or life changes or now they're taking care of, you
know, a parent or something else.
And then we just kind of lose them in those areas.
So we're, if you're working to get them there, how are we, what
else can we do to support women in staying in those C-Suite
positions, I guess is my next question.
It's, it's, it's so important what you just brought up.
(26:46):
That's a culture issue. It's not a woman issue.
It's a culture issue. Most corporate cultures were
built based on a patriarchal system.
Most corporate cultures, even some nonprofit, because we're
mirroring what we have seen has worked, were built on systems
and structures where you assume it is a man in there and you're
(27:07):
not thinking about work life balance.
You're not thinking about the fact that we as women, most of
the caretaking falls upon our shoulders.
Now it is up to us to be able tosay no.
It's one of the core workshops. Ioffer is owning your no because
we do need to be able to set up our boundaries in a kind and
clear fashion. But that really comes down to
culture. I had one client.
It's a good example. She had just been elevated to a
(27:30):
management position. She'd had management positions
before, but got a new team and was elevated in her title
because she was such a great results producer.
And my first call with her, she was like, look, I have two
little kids and my day is scheduled from stem to stern.
Other people can put meetings onmy calendar.
I have to run from one meeting to the other.
I don't ever get a moment by myself.
(27:53):
And I said, well, I said if you've got an exit, number one,
don't have your meetings be an hour, have them be half an hour
because you'll fill whatever meeting filled.
An hour will fill half an hour. Y'all just too much.
Y'all just talk too much. OK, let's just put it that way.
So #2 if you have a moment, why can't you step outside some and
#3 put the time in your day and make people schedule around it.
(28:16):
You come first. So she actually finally saw
herself as someone who could ship the Culture that it was OK
to take a 15 minute break and walk outside in the sunshine,
but she had to see that she had agency.
So I believe it's a couple of things.
One is companies need to build abetter bench of women and they
aren't. There was a report last year
(28:38):
done by a year ago done by Mackenzie that showed, yes, more
women are getting to the C-Suite.
However, companies are hiring outside of the organization
because they haven't built a bench and they haven't made it.
What's the word I want to use? They haven't made it OK for
women to want to go into the C-Suite.
You don't know how many times what I've talked to women who
(28:58):
I've. No.
True. True.
True, true. Yeah, I've talked to one woman
who, you know, she's at the age,she's in her low 30s.
She wants to think about having a family, she said.
I don't even know if I want to get to the executive level
because those guys are on call 24/7.
Yep. Stop.
Stop there. There's no balance in that.
There's there is this. Yes, yes.
(29:20):
Literally a productivity hell. This is why I really love
teaching the creator planner andredefining productivity for
women because we aren't we don'thave a mirror like you said, we
are mirroring what we've been taught.
And I'm super grateful, honestlya lot of all the men for what
they've constructed. The construct has worked up into
a certain point, but as women, it's time to like poke the holes
(29:43):
in the damn thing and be like, OK, there's a, you know, this is
this, this window needs to be built here.
This doorway needs to be built here.
This whole line that cemented now needs to start moving right?
Like we need to start putting inwall.
We need to put doors, we need toput windows in like this doesn't
work for us as anymore, especially if you're bringing us
in and wanting our input as women.
(30:05):
And because we're we're showing that we do ask more questions,
we are changing the landscape ofbusiness, we are bringing a more
social aspect into it. We're humanizing the business.
We're bringing more collaborative approach.
So much more. And so when it comes to this
productivity grind that we're trying to mirror, it is so
(30:26):
counterintuitive to the female energy.
And I know you talked about thislike it's our energy is
different, our experiences are different.
We don't flow in the circadian rhythm only.
We flow through an Ephradian rhythm.
If we understood that intrinsically as a woman, our
tasks would look different. Our ability to step in to
C-Suite, our ability to to live at aceo level without having to
(30:49):
do what seems like. Here's The funny thing I've
learned. Women can actually get more done
in less time. Literally less time.
Like I've had women say I feel lazy because I got everything I
needed done because I was working right where I needed to
be in my sweet spot for the tasks that I was working on.
But now the rest of the day. So now we're looking to fill the
(31:11):
day instead of like really taking that and breathing
through it. And I think that starts to shift
as women is when we stop trying to keep doing and we take that
time to go outside, call our kids, check in, like it becomes
a whole different experience forus.
Whole different experience, yeahand, and I think the other piece
too, and I think men are victim of this patriarchal construct
(31:35):
too because they have walked into it thinking they got a.
Like. You know, show this or that or,
you know, whip out their. Dicks and they have a sword.
Fight. Sorry.
Of course I was gonna get offended, but whatever.
Whatever you're allowed. And men have not been, you know,
men have not been given safe spaces to express emotion, to
cry, quite honestly, all those things.
(31:57):
The masks that we wear both as men and women, this this fake
mask, if I gotta show up strong,no emotion whatever.
And this sense of other mask forthe women's, I gotta, you know,
show up as always taking care ofit.
Like we each wear this, these masks that just hide our true
selves, and we're not allowing that true yin and Yang of that
cross between us to really be highlighted.
(32:20):
And to shine through. Yeah.
And for women, you know, to, to,to contort and twist and whittle
away their edges in order to tryto fit into the, you know, round
hole. I'm like, make the whole square.
That's what you need to do. Don't whittle away your edge is
because what I find, and I'm sure you find this too, is we're
(32:40):
worried like, oh, can I say that?
Will I be seen as too much? Will I be seen as difficult?
Because statistically it shows women are more critical of other
women. If you look at polling data,
exit polling from political elections, the data shows that
women are more critical of otherwomen who are running for
office. I ran for office in 2009 and I
(33:03):
learned the hard way I would notleave the house unless I had
makeup on, my hair was combed and I was wearing like an
outfit. Because so crazy how quickly we
judge each. Other hair.
Do you think she's OK? We have no grace for each other,
which is so crazy because we should with anybody.
We should have more grace for each other as women because we
know underneath the makeup we have a life.
(33:24):
Like there is something else going on there.
There's something else. We should be fixing each other's
crowns, not knocking them down. Thank you.
I agree. All right, well, we're coming up
to the end of the show, but I'veI really want.
I know we are we God, we could have Jen, you and I have way too
much fun. We honestly, we love working
(33:46):
with women. We really want to see them
achieve. Do more.
You know who you are authentically has come through.
I love that you're talking about, you know, this imposter
paradigm that we're in that doesn't exist, that we've
created. We've created the cage.
Yep, and then we're living in it.
Yeah. And then we don't think we have
the key. And we don't think we have the
key and we do, but it is you do need somebody outside of you, a
(34:10):
coach, whomever to be able to help you see what those keys
are. Because when you're wrapped
around the axle because it's an imposter phenomenon.
And the women who coined the phrase called it imposter
phenomenon. They didn't call it imposter
syndrome because it's phenomenological.
It's an as lived experience in the moment.
So how can we, when you were talking about, you know, making
(34:32):
the time shorter between the moment that you get reactivated
and you take action to the OR the moment that something
happens and you react that that ability to to see it earlier and
then to lengthen the moment between action and reaction.
That is the name of the game, hands down.
From here to eternity. It's never going to go away
(34:54):
because you and I are human. And that means people often ask
me like, will it ever go away? It does once, yeah, when you're
dead. And then they're like, God, that
was gross. I'm like it was the.
Truth. Did she really say that?
You did. She did.
It will go away once when you'redead.
When you're dead. That's going to be the quote for
(35:15):
this entire thing. There you go.
Yeah. Because it's true.
All right, so you last couple things in here.
So you've got a book written. We haven't even talked about
that. Holy moly.
Quick, I know it's called. Make imposter syndrome your
superpower and you can buy it wherever books are sold.
It's the ultimate guide for women in STEM to lead with more
authority, influence, and impact.
(35:35):
It's really made for all leaders.
If you're an entrepreneur, you can read it too, because it's
all the lessons I wish I had 30 years ago when I started
becoming a leader that weren't taught to me because other
people didn't know that they were needed.
Yeah, so. So imposter syndrome becoming
your superpower book link down below in the show notes.
Wherever you're listening to this or watching this, trust me,
(35:56):
you want to get your hands on this.
The other thing that you're sharing with us is the
opportunity to discover your imposter Syndrome flavor.
Yeah, like your unique flavor, where it comes from.
So if you go to jenkokenquiz.com, JENC OK EN
quiz.com, it took you about two minutes because you did it.
(36:16):
Rightly, and I've got it pulled up over here.
It's fantastic. Yeah, so it takes you about 2-3
minutes, but it'll start showingyou where your unique flavor of
Impostor Center might come from.So if you're someone who's a
perfectionist, that might score higher, or if you're somebody
that seeks out external validation, that might score
harder. I was the external validation
(36:37):
because my incident happened, you know, when I was 6.
It also does invite you to book a call with me and I invite
anybody to take it. You want to get on a call and
spit ball some stuff. And I also offer sessions where
we can identify, disrupt and then do a follow up call if
people are interested. And for those that are
listening, for those that are going to take the quiz, I highly
(36:58):
recommended the layout of this. It says, you know, it's your
leadership decoder. So she's got this beautiful
color decoder really highlighting the different areas
where you've scored yourself. And I like the fact that you've
like allow us to kind of really criticize in some ways our own
selves, right? Yeah, you're you're your worst
critic. So you're going to really pull
(37:19):
out what you're looking at. But these seven key areas in
which you kind of dive into, I was like, yeah, yeah.
So going through them, even for me, you know, and they're still
areas, yeah. I don't ever want to be at a
zero. Like, I don't want to be like,
oh, I've got no issues. I'm not so overly like that's
(37:39):
kind of such BS because tomorrowsomething will come.
Up Exactly, exactly, exactly. You cannot say that you're not
any of these like. It just doesn't exist because
you're not like you're, you're ahuman being.
Like we talked about this den. We're human beings.
We are flawed. We're gonna make meaning out of
everything. So enjoy the process, take the
(38:00):
quiz, have some fun with this, learn something about yourself.
Book a call with Jen. I love your photo that you have
in here. It's just so fun and playful.
So definitely spend the time with her.
Grab the quiz, get the book. I think this is something every
woman should have in their handsbecause it really is.
(38:21):
You know, we're evolving and Jenand I are both.
You guys haven't heard it yet. We're both passionate about
making sure us fucking women. Yeah, man, are successful as
successful as fuck? Yes, yes.
It's time so but. Apologizing for existing and
start noticing where you are rounding your corners.
(38:41):
Yeah. Now in some instances, right, we
may need to, there's times when I can come across sharp.
Yes. I want to be able to deliver the
same be, you know, because Clarity's kindness, be direct
and clear, but with kindness andwith love.
And we're always working on that.
But do not ever apologize or back down from who you are.
I always say to people what other people think about you as
(39:01):
none of your business, what you think about you make that your
business. That's the most important
person. Oh.
Great, So what's next for Jen? Oh, oh, I'm having a lot of fun.
You know, when I saw that these companies were hiring outside
their firms, right? I was like, all right, well, I'm
going to develop leadership development pipeline.
(39:22):
So I took all the stuff I've been doing one-on-one and
designed a curriculum that I canbring into companies and can be,
you know, one day, three days, six weeks, six months to train
their next group of high achievers to be C-Suite ready.
But if they can't be C-Suite ready because there's no room in
the C-Suite, they can, you can at least be assured that they
(39:42):
know how to represent the company at any event and can
potentially bring in new business because they have
confidence in themselves. So that's what we're, that's
what we're up to now. And doing a whole bunch of
speaking. I'm doing a pan on executive
presence next week on LinkedIn and a talk at my book signing at
my local library. And then a couple of.
(40:03):
Workshops for an HR group and then I'm speaking at a
conference in Orlando, so lots of fun stuff.
Like that, rocking it so the thefuture looks bright, the world
looks like what you're looking at, and we're definitely making
a difference in an impact. So yeah, yeah, you're welcome.
You're welcome. Thank you for making a
difference and making an impact with this podcast, with all that
(40:24):
you do for the women out there. So important.
Yeah, so ladies that are listening, and I know a few of
you gentlemen are dropping in onthis conversation because you're
curious about what all of us women are talking about, won't
you? He said.
Did she really say that? Honestly, I feel like every
single one of you in my audience, you know that this
conversation is for you. I bring on extraordinary women
who are making a difference, that are challenging the norms
(40:47):
that are poking through all the structures out there and really
supporting and the collaboratingand highlighting and creating
cohorts and all sorts of fun stuff, supporting US women
because you know what, we need it.
And I embrace it. And I love all my sisters for
what they're bringing to the table.
So for everybody that's listening, thank you again for
(41:07):
joining us on Did she Really SayThat?
And we'll see you on the next episode.
Thanks for having me.
Well, welcome to this episode ofDid she really say that?
And honestly, you're going to find yourself saying this a lot
in your head as you talk to Jen and you hear what the
conversation we're having today because it's all about imposter
syndrome, yet with A twist. It's about it being your
superpower. Like ladies, how many of you
(00:24):
have imposter syndrome around self doubt and confidence?
How many you have self who have issues with perfectionism?
Any females out there have perfectionism issues?
You're going to love this conversation and you know that I
love working with women and helping you plan time and
productivity. The Create Her Planner is out
now for sale. You guys know all about it.
(00:45):
It is changing and evolving the whole process of how women view
time and productivity, giving you Peace of Mind to really
enjoy your confidence, reduce your perfectionism, and get your
leadership underway. So Jen, this is the perfect time
for this conversation. And who is Jen?
I'm so glad you all asked all mylisteners and audience.
She's a leader expert, She's an executive coach.
(01:08):
She's basically a badass, right?She's a comedian.
So it means that she's got a great sense of humor.
We all love improv. If you don't love improv, you
should, right? She's a powerhouse and we're
going to talk about how to turn your imposter syndrome into your
superpower, right? So for over 2 decades, she's
(01:29):
coached thousands of leaders. Ladies like she is the one to go
to. She's going to help you really
understand your influence because you're building a
business. So gosh darn it, you have
influence. And whether you believe it or
not, you do. So let's create lasking impact
while keeping our sanity intact.Boom, right share her bold
(01:51):
mission is to help create a world where everybody feels at
home in themselves with themselves by themselves.
I love it. All right, so it's not time to
play small ladies. You know we don't do that on.
Did she really say that? So, Jen, thank you so much for
joining us here on our show today.
I'm so excited to be here just because of the name of your
(02:12):
podcast, because people often say to me, did you really say
that? I'm like, yes, I did.
Yes, you did. So let's talk about this whole
imposter syndrome. How did you get into this
business of imposter syndrome? Like, tell us a little bit about
your back journey. Yeah, OK, so I grew up, you
(02:32):
know, I forgot. Is this video, audio, or both?
It's both. OK, good.
So people will see. But for video folks, I'm air
quoting air. Quotes.
In politics, I spent 25 years asa grassroots organizer working
at every level of politics, getting people elected, passing
issues, blah, blah, blah. A lot of it within energy,
environmental movement, and, andpretty much I was the only woman
(02:54):
out there, right. So at the same time I was doing
that, I was also coaching for one of the largest professional
coaching organizations as a volunteer.
Oh Lord, you weren't even getting paid, did she?
Really say that. Did she really say that?
You weren't coaching, volunteering at a big like,
coach? Oh lordy, 30 hours.
(03:15):
You weren't even getting paid for that, were you?
For 18 years but I got trained AF.
Yeah, you did. You did.
That's how come I can say I've coached 10,000 leaders because
that was going on at the same time right around 2015.
I loved the organization. It was very head based, very and
you know, it was very NLP, neurolinguistic programming, very
(03:37):
thought based and neuroscience, which I'm a geek.
I'm a neuroscience nerd, so I don't mind that.
But but. It was at a point where I wanted
to bring in divine feminine and energetic work and spiritual
work and so. That doesn't fit in that space.
By the way, if I if you're, if you're in a large program like
that, the that typically from that far back does not embrace
(03:58):
that type of thinking. Exactly.
So I said peace out, had my NDA for a year.
And then I thought at the time Iwas working in the energy
industry, you know, one of the few women at the top in the
organization. I thought I was a badass.
Yeah, Going to retire from there.
And I walked in on a Monday and my boss slid the folder over to
(04:21):
me and he said, I'm sorry, can we swear on this podcast of.
Course we can swear on this podcast.
Did she really see it has got some fucking swearing on here?
OK good so he slides his folder over me using sorry your
services are no longer needed. I go get the fuck out because I
was a huge money maker for the organization and he goes no has
nothing to do with your performance.
What they had realized was I hadkept pounding them like PNL by
(04:46):
office, not by company, PNL by office.
I got to know what my numbers are.
I got to know what I'm doing here, what I'm pricing things at
so I can make sure there's a profit in each of the individual
offices. No, it's a fine.
Let us let us boys worry about it.
Oh Lord. It was almost like.
Pat on the head like it's okay little girl, you don't
(05:06):
understand numbers, Remember? Girls aren't good at math.
That BS you've been told for decades and centuries.
Yeah, crap. Anyway.
Anywho, so they had decided to reorganize because they realized
my particular program that I hadstood up, which was a municipal
lobbying arm for the solar company, was no longer
profitable. So they went, they tried it for
(05:27):
like a year, I want to say, and then they'd went solely to
commercial where they're still making money that way.
OK, I actually stayed because they were laying off half my
team. I was like, look, dude, to my
boss, I said, let me lay them off.
I don't want them hearing it from anyone else.
Plus, I have a few things to kind of close out because in
every, as a grassroots organizer, your job is to
(05:47):
replace yourself. So any company I've ever worked
for, I make sure that all the pieces are put there so someone
else can walk in and take over. Yeah.
Did all that. Whatever.
The next day my first book came out.
When I die, take my panties. I love it.
You didn't tell me about this book when we first chatted.
(06:08):
Well, it's now a movie script that we're shopping around.
Yes. So when that happened, it kind
of, you know, it was like, OK, wait a minute, maybe there's a
because. So my mom passed from ovarian
cancer and I felt like this mustbe a sign my job is to educate
people about ovarian cancer because she was diagnosed stage
4 as what most women were. Lo and behold, 3 women that
(06:30):
heard me speak with my book werediagnosed stage 1.
You know, thank God, unheard of.But then when I'm this is like,
you know, but I'm moving throughmy severance because I'm not
making any money. One of my coaches turned to me
and said, you know, you got to start making money.
I was like, I'm really tell me something else.
I don't know. Did you really say that?
(06:50):
Yes, yeah. And so I said, well, the thing
that I'm most passionate about is coaching.
So let me go back to coaching. But here's where the imposter
syndrome came in. I didn't know who I was separate
from that company. Well, it was my voice.
What was my thought leadership? How was I, what were my coaching
frameworks? It was really difficult for me
(07:12):
to figure out where who I was atthat time.
And as I began dealing with the outfall of that, the feelings,
the doubt, the perfectionism, the the God, can I really put
that content out there? Can I really say?
That can I get somebody to pay me this price for this?
(07:33):
Can I be am I open to receiving this type of money into my all
of those questions? Exactly.
I began to get really interestedin where the heck does this all
come from? You know, I'm not a therapist.
And for those listening, hopefully people, I'm just going
to distinguish between therapy and coaching because I think
it's, it's important to do, you know, therapists,
psychotherapists, etcetera. Number one, you know, they're
(07:57):
credentialed or they have their medical degree and they're
dealing with the past. They're dealing with what has
you be the way you are today. And, and I'm just saying that in
a very broad brush stroke where coaches are aspirational, where
do you want to get to? And what I have found in the
work I do is people's language tells me a lot.
(08:17):
Oh yes. And so I was like, OK, well,
what am I saying to myself and where does that come from?
And that's when I kind of began to realize, OK, this is what
people called imposter syndrome.And what I took it back to was
what I call a defining moment. So what I have discovered over
the decades of me coaching people is that for the most part
(08:40):
people have like 5 what I would call case issues or defining
moments. 5 things that happened before the age of 17 when our
brain, brains are truly still forming that work.
Not trauma, not something deep and dark, but something quick
that happens. In a where?
What's that? It's like it.
Happens in a second. It's.
(09:01):
Happens in a second. It's.
A very specific moment. Very specific moment and the
brain decides something because what's happening is the brain's
job is to keep the thing it's a brain of alive, which is you,
right? So it's constantly determining
threat, but it can't determine between psychological and
physical, and the brain's never dealing with reality.
Never. Never, never, never.
(09:24):
It's it's only ever dealing withits interpretation of reality
and comparing and contrasting itto the information already in
its head. Because I'm saying it, because
human beings are human beings. So what I drew my piece back to
was when I was six years old, I was in love with this boy named
Keith and so did was my best. Friend hot as fuck.
(09:46):
He was six years old. He had big black glasses and I
had glasses and he was adorable.And yes, I mean, he was a little
boy so it's like hard for me to say.
Was he hot as fuck? He was adorable in my mind.
Little black glasses. Wore this bright blue beanie to
school with his little corduroy jacket, and he smiled a lot.
He was a really nice kid, you know?
(10:07):
But my best friend Michelle was in love with him too, and we
decided we were going to figure out who he liked by chasing him
around the playground to see whohe would kiss.
Because that's what you do at six.
True story, yes. It's true.
So we did. And Michelle, you know, we we
caught him and Michelle puckeredup and he kissed her cheek and I
(10:30):
puckered up and he went, EW. And he ran away.
And at that time, this kid, Jerry Johnson, who was like
Cootie boy, kissed me on the cheek and said, I'll kiss you
and ran away. And I at that time, what my
little mind remembers is the entire playground laughing at
me. And I just wanted to fall into
the earth and be swallowed up. And the decision I took is I'm,
(10:52):
I'm not going to be out in front.
I'm not going to, you know, be the like, I'm not going to get
embarrassed like that again because the brain is interacting
with the unwanted emotions the body is experiencing.
And what I chose was I'm just going to be funny and I'll be
the funny sidekick and 2nd in command.
And if, and the reason I say it's my superpower is because if
(11:13):
you look at my career, all I've ever done was stand up other
people, get other people elected, start nonprofits for
other people. Super successful.
I mean, I I actually ran one of the most successful grassroots
organizing campaigns in the country, according to some
researcher at University of Iowa.
Wow. It was never for me.
It was for somebody else. Yeah.
(11:34):
Moment was me and my brand and my identity.
It was like words were caught inmy throat.
Yeah. How many women that are
listening to this can relate to that?
All of a sudden, you're at this point where you're like, how do
how do I separate myself? Because I am the same way.
I did the same thing. I was really good at promoting
everybody else. But when it came time, Jen, for
(11:54):
me to promote me, I was like, like, I clammed up and I was
like, whoa, what just happened there?
Yeah. Exactly.
And it was almost like I had to begin.
Do you remember, did you have these?
We like toothpaste tubes used tobe metal back in the day.
I'm totally showing my age. And there was a toothpaste key
that you had to, like, wind it up.
Yeah, it. Wind like I haven't.
(12:15):
Yeah, toothpaste key around my throat to wind the words out of
my throat, you know, And so it became a muscle for me to
practice because here we've identified this brain pattern.
We've disrupted it. Now we need to establish a new
brain pattern yes. And so who was I going to be in
the matter of that moment when Ifeel like I want to retract, I'm
(12:39):
going to be brave or courageous.I think was what I created.
So I just began trying to be courageous and saying the thing
anyway without fear and waiting for the fallout and it never
came. I mean, I haven't maybe I'm not
popular enough to have too many trolls, but I'm sure there's
people that don't agree with my content.
But I've never backed down from how I talk or drop in the
(13:00):
occasional F bomb. In fact, I just send an e-mail
or I'm setting up an e-mail for Sunday that has an F bomb in
there because it was a client who was trying to contort
herself to be in a room where the dude in the room was
embarrassed because she knew more than him.
And she was like, and I'm tryingto figure out, you know, like
how to say these things. And I go fuck him.
(13:23):
Your job is not to make that dude feel more comfortable.
I'm sorry. No, it's, it's, no, that's The
thing is so many times we will minimize ourselves trying to
make somebody else feel better. And, and it's contortion.
It's, it feels so inauthentic because here on one side we're
saying, Hey, women, you have a voice.
Be your authentic self. And yet we, we get into
(13:45):
situations where we feel like wecan't be like we're, we're
literally bumping up against. But the one thing we're saying
is like, this isn't us. And I'm still doing or following
into a habit of trying to peopleplease want to do that should be
first and foremost pleasing myself.
Absolutely. And and the thing that I find,
(14:07):
you know, I always say leadership's an inside job.
We got to start with unearthing your authentic power, who you
want to be when you're true to yourself.
And that starts with identifyingthose moments that have defined
us where we limit ourselves. But then we got to let start
looking at the patriarchal constructs that we're operating
inside of, that we think are true and somehow also are
(14:27):
limiting. But those limits are invisible.
We've just bought the. We bought.
We drank the Kool-aid. We drank the kool-aid, we bought
the kool-aid, we drank the kool-aid absolutely.
And it's and it's untangling that.
It's almost like, you know, a tech bunch of cords that you had
that behind your television or whatever, They're all.
(14:47):
Tangled up, it's like, have you ever seen the elephant?
How they train elephants not to move right.
So there's like the so an elephant you can, you can,
they'll wear like a cuff around their, their leg and they'll be
just like a stake maybe hit three times into the ground.
This element is bigger than thatstake.
It's got a chain on there. But it's belief system is
because when they were small, every time it tried to pull it
(15:09):
was in cement. It couldn't move it forward.
But as it got older and never learned that that cement no
longer exists. Right.
Yeah. And so now they have the power
to literally just lift their legand wander off wherever they
want. But as we've been just
conditioned and I, we use this alot in the parallel in the
(15:31):
entrepreneurial world, sometimeswe've been just so conditioned
that we can't do more or we can't take our power and just
move and do something differently.
We just stay because we think we're bound by some arbitrary BS
construct of how business life and money.
Work. Yeah.
And how marketing works or how whatever.
(15:52):
Yeah, I always, I always use theexample of fleas in a jar, the
way they train circus fleas as they have the lid and the fleas
can only hit as high as the top of the jar.
You remove the lid, the fleas are only jumping.
And that's what we do. Yeah.
You know, so people have women Iknow who are very successful on
top of their game have stopped speaking up in meetings.
(16:13):
You know, I had somebody come tome.
I was at an event. I was speaking at an event in
Colorado and she said something about how she's in a meeting,
she's had a marketing introduced.
I was like, look, this is where we need to be.
These are the metrics, yadda, yadda, yadda.
People kind of looked at her with a blank face.
Her boss, the CEO repeated it. Everyone was like, Oh my God.
And I said to her, I go, so he peeded you.
She goes, what? I go.
(16:34):
He didn't repeat. He, he peeded, didn't repeat it.
He, he peeded. That's my new phrase.
He peeded. He peed.
Stop repeating me. Stop mansplaining.
Stop repeating me. Yeah.
Yeah, but so I started testing this theory that I did on myself
of this defining moment and begin leveraging that tool with
all of my clients and to AT women were identifying those
(16:58):
defining moments and I can unlock that defining moment for
somebody in one session. Oh easily, easily.
And then I usually say it takes like two more sessions because
then we're gonna, you're gonna go out and.
Practice. Yeah, you're gonna come back, et
cetera. So at least three sessions with
that. But to AT, when I speak, I do a
(17:18):
5 minute meditation that gets people back to their defining
moment. It works in rooms of 1000.
It works one-on-one. And it's always something that
happens either in your relationship to authority or
your experience of belonging before the age of 17.
Yep, I think mine was around 8 do.
(17:42):
You know what it was? Did we?
Talk about this before. No, we've never talked about
this before. The the situation though, in, in
the outcome of this was basically I could not speak up
without hurting everybody in my family.
Whatever I had to say was going to hurt my siblings, was going
to hurt my parents. And I, I felt like if I had
(18:04):
spoken up, I would do more damage than good.
So I learned to silence my voice.
After that, I got really quiet, and I stopped speaking up
because I was afraid. I knew the power of my voice had
the power to hurt. And truth was apparently a very
painful thing. That was the belief.
So like, yeah, like you talk about, it's like in, in a
(18:25):
second, something that my mom said to me, she says if you do
this, this will happen. And in that moment, I made
everything. I made myself wrong for even
creating an awareness, and in such effect that I locked myself
away and said I'll never speak my truth again.
Yeah. It's, you know.
(18:45):
And it was just, what's so interesting is going back and
having those conversations and asking what everyone else's
experience was that wasn't theirs.
My mom has no recollection at that time, right?
Does he remember that? Conversation but it.
Literally had a like instant impact on me.
And so I definitely, you know, Jen, I've gone through and done
a lot of, we're gonna continue to do that because that voice,
(19:08):
that little 8 year old girl, she, I've gotta keep reminding
myself to pull her out of the closet because when I found her,
she was literally underneath thestaircase in a dark room with no
light on. And I was like, holy crap, what
did I do to you? And so it's a lot of self love.
It is a lot of self love. It's also remembering that that
can the reason people deal. And by the way, it's not a
syndrome, it's a phenomenon. It's an imposter syndrome is a
(19:31):
medical diagnosis. So let's talk about that too.
However, I mean, that's all I need to say about that.
But I think it is remembering that comes about because we have
an amygdala. We have an amygdala because we
have a brain. It will get triggered in anytime
the brain thinks it is not safe,so that even if you've discerned
it now, some new circumstance could come along.
(19:53):
You're absolutely. Oh wait a minute, that's that 8
year old girl that's not real. That surprised because I think
at the time when I was doing self development, I thought I
was fixing myself air quotes foreverybody who's not watching.
Yeah, I went to self developmentto get fixed.
Like there's something broken inme.
And really, it took me a good while to get out of my own way
and just recognize that exactly who I am is perfect the way I
(20:15):
am. And I'm just going to show up
habitually in certain ways and just noticing it faster.
Yes, it came exactly like you start to notice when you're, you
know, getting asking yourself questions around your
leadership, when you start doubting yourself and you start
getting into perfection mode andyou're looking at how that's
helping or hindering you, right?Yep.
(20:36):
And so, but you start to recognize it faster and faster.
And faster. And that is the name of the game
that is that I've told people I go just because you've you've
identified this, you've unearthed this.
Now, just because we've excavated this does not mean
it's going away. I thought it did.
I thought for sure I could have put like a little like check
mark. So that's yeah.
Man, I wish, I wish. I mean it still happens to me,
(20:59):
right? I always joke and say I'm either
like the bull in the China shop or standing behind somebody
else. And that, and that's what I've
said to people. You know, once you I see this
brain pattern, it's like you hada car that that went and drive
in reverse and you didn't realize if you went left there
in the mountains and if you wentright, there's the ocean.
There's a whole world out there.But without realizing it, we
(21:19):
limit ourselves and then we hit the limit of our limiting
beliefs. So you're right.
It is the game is how quick can we see it?
How quick can we see it? Yeah.
Where can we? How?
Quick, are you to sit in the poopy diaper before you realize
you're sitting in a poopy diaper?
I do. Squishing my poopy diaper.
Yeah, here. I'm sitting in my own shit here.
Here we go. And you know what they actually
(21:40):
call that? I was actually read a book.
She calls it Swamping. Swamping.
Swamping so she invites women togo and marry me in whatever.
Like upset because you really can't stand it for very long.
And when you acknowledge it and you have to spend time with it,
you're like almost disgusting with yourself after.
Like, you probably could do it alittle bit longer the first
(22:00):
time, but after a while it gets really like, this is stupid.
Like I'm sitting here in my own shit swamping and being upset
about this and I'm like, and I'mdone.
OK, moving on. What's next?
Exactly. It's actually something I tell
the managers that I'm that I coach.
When they have people that come to them that are negative all
the time. I go look, next time here's what
you're going to do. Go to the dollar store and get a
(22:23):
fake little bucket, you know a kids sand bucket, a a cute
little bucket you'd put on, you know you'd put on display with
candy in it, blah blah blah and just put on their verbal vomit
bucket. People come into your office,
you go good, you got 5 minutes here's the bucket, go.
I promise you they won't be ableto talk for the full 5 minutes,
but make them, make them. You still have time.
(22:44):
Keep bitching, go ahead, keep going, keep going, keep going,
keep going. You done, you're done.
Are we done are we done Good good.
Now let's actually talk about the stuff that makes the
difference. You feel better No, you don't
because you spitting out all theverbal spewing, you know, puking
that stuff up yes sometimes, butmostly, as you pointed out, we
(23:05):
we shy away from the experience of being sad, lonely, worried.
You know, if that's. Because you shouldn't be sad,
lonely, depressed, shouldn't be like.
Quitting. On yourself.
Yeah. Stop shitting all over yourself.
Yeah, I love that phrase. I'm like, stop shitting on
yourself. Yeah.
I don't know what you think you should be doing.
Yeah, it's crazy. So imposter syndrome.
(23:27):
So your training around this really is helping.
Now you are working with women. I know we talked about that one.
That's like you. You're really because I feel
like we are definitely. I feel like we go back and
forth, we get a decade ahead, we're like 2 decades behind.
Well, let's not even go there onthis conversation right now, but
absolutely, absolutely. I know, I know.
(23:48):
Yeah. I because, you know, my mom
retired from NASA, OK. I was in.
It was. It's funny because in hindsight,
I'm like, holy crap. I've been like the lone woman
and many of these rooms and I just didn't give a fuck.
Yeah. I just, I didn't care what I
said to people. I mean, I was kind about it for
the most part. Sometimes I wasn't.
But I would say what everybody else was thinking, right.
(24:12):
So for me, when I went into coaching and, you know, you have
to find your ideal client because you can't be everything
to everybody. You're not a jar of Nutella
first. Yeah.
That's true. You really?
Are a bottle of. Tequila for everybody.
Trust me, you can't swear it. Some people, they get a little
hurt and intimidated. I get it.
Exactly. So I was like, OK, well, who are
the people that are most important to me?
(24:33):
And that was making sure more women get to the C-Suite and if
they're not in the C-Suite, makesure more women are getting into
leadership positions. That's what became most
important to me. And what it starts with always
is the inner game of leadership.And that's where a world of
people at home with themselves when we are confident in who we
are, when we have have embraced as you did and every aspect of
(24:58):
ourselves, good, bad, ugly, different, whatever it is when
we have then discovered what it means when we feel true.
What does it mean when we like, how do we feel when we're
really, you know, if I think about on a daily basis, I woke
up into this experience of just incredibly filled with love when
I woke up this morning, like community, that's all my life is
(25:20):
about really is creating communities of women.
Because what astonishes me time and again when I bring women
together in cohorts, they I havetwo women right now.
They're in one of my groups. One's AVP of guest experience
for a big hospitality company. The other one's an out of work
IT person and they're dealing with the same stuff And like
what? Wait, how can that be?
(25:42):
And I love when women see themselves in each other.
So that's why my work has focused.
When I go into companies, I willcoach whoever you know was in
the company. I'm not going to tell people
like I'm only dealing with womenon the leadership team.
The leadership team needs help. The leadership team needs help.
The yeah, everybody on the leadership team will then need
help. It's that's a right that's a
whole other level of conversation.
(26:03):
Yep, Yep, Yep, Yep, yeah, yeah, But So what is the one of the
you're talking about getting like more women into C, into
C-Suite. Are we keeping women there?
Because a lot of the times I hear from men, especially in
some of the like, I would say, Italked to the gentleman that was
a lawyer and he says, I love women that, you know, raise up
there, but they're just not staying at that, that level.
(26:24):
Like they're something comes in or they, you know, they get
married or life changes or now they're taking care of, you
know, a parent or something else.
And then we just kind of lose them in those areas.
So we're, if you're working to get them there, how are we, what
else can we do to support women in staying in those C-Suite
positions, I guess is my next question.
It's, it's, it's so important what you just brought up.
(26:46):
That's a culture issue. It's not a woman issue.
It's a culture issue. Most corporate cultures were
built based on a patriarchal system.
Most corporate cultures, even some nonprofit, because we're
mirroring what we have seen has worked, were built on systems
and structures where you assume it is a man in there and you're
(27:07):
not thinking about work life balance.
You're not thinking about the fact that we as women, most of
the caretaking falls upon our shoulders.
Now it is up to us to be able tosay no.
It's one of the core workshops. Ioffer is owning your no because
we do need to be able to set up our boundaries in a kind and
clear fashion. But that really comes down to
culture. I had one client.
It's a good example. She had just been elevated to a
(27:30):
management position. She'd had management positions
before, but got a new team and was elevated in her title
because she was such a great results producer.
And my first call with her, she was like, look, I have two
little kids and my day is scheduled from stem to stern.
Other people can put meetings onmy calendar.
I have to run from one meeting to the other.
I don't ever get a moment by myself.
(27:53):
And I said, well, I said if you've got an exit, number one,
don't have your meetings be an hour, have them be half an hour
because you'll fill whatever meeting filled.
An hour will fill half an hour. Y'all just too much.
Y'all just talk too much. OK, let's just put it that way.
So #2 if you have a moment, why can't you step outside some and
#3 put the time in your day and make people schedule around it.
(28:16):
You come first. So she actually finally saw
herself as someone who could ship the Culture that it was OK
to take a 15 minute break and walk outside in the sunshine,
but she had to see that she had agency.
So I believe it's a couple of things.
One is companies need to build abetter bench of women and they
aren't. There was a report last year
(28:38):
done by a year ago done by Mackenzie that showed, yes, more
women are getting to the C-Suite.
However, companies are hiring outside of the organization
because they haven't built a bench and they haven't made it.
What's the word I want to use? They haven't made it OK for
women to want to go into the C-Suite.
You don't know how many times what I've talked to women who
(28:58):
I've. No.
True. True.
True, true. Yeah, I've talked to one woman
who, you know, she's at the age,she's in her low 30s.
She wants to think about having a family, she said.
I don't even know if I want to get to the executive level
because those guys are on call 24/7.
Yep. Stop.
Stop there. There's no balance in that.
There's there is this. Yes, yes.
(29:20):
Literally a productivity hell. This is why I really love
teaching the creator planner andredefining productivity for
women because we aren't we don'thave a mirror like you said, we
are mirroring what we've been taught.
And I'm super grateful, honestlya lot of all the men for what
they've constructed. The construct has worked up into
a certain point, but as women, it's time to like poke the holes
(29:43):
in the damn thing and be like, OK, there's a, you know, this is
this, this window needs to be built here.
This doorway needs to be built here.
This whole line that cemented now needs to start moving right?
Like we need to start putting inwall.
We need to put doors, we need toput windows in like this doesn't
work for us as anymore, especially if you're bringing us
in and wanting our input as women.
(30:05):
And because we're we're showing that we do ask more questions,
we are changing the landscape ofbusiness, we are bringing a more
social aspect into it. We're humanizing the business.
We're bringing more collaborative approach.
So much more. And so when it comes to this
productivity grind that we're trying to mirror, it is so
(30:26):
counterintuitive to the female energy.
And I know you talked about thislike it's our energy is
different, our experiences are different.
We don't flow in the circadian rhythm only.
We flow through an Ephradian rhythm.
If we understood that intrinsically as a woman, our
tasks would look different. Our ability to step in to
C-Suite, our ability to to live at aceo level without having to
(30:49):
do what seems like. Here's The funny thing I've
learned. Women can actually get more done
in less time. Literally less time.
Like I've had women say I feel lazy because I got everything I
needed done because I was working right where I needed to
be in my sweet spot for the tasks that I was working on.
But now the rest of the day. So now we're looking to fill the
(31:11):
day instead of like really taking that and breathing
through it. And I think that starts to shift
as women is when we stop trying to keep doing and we take that
time to go outside, call our kids, check in, like it becomes
a whole different experience forus.
Whole different experience, yeahand, and I think the other piece
too, and I think men are victim of this patriarchal construct
(31:35):
too because they have walked into it thinking they got a.
Like. You know, show this or that or,
you know, whip out their. Dicks and they have a sword.
Fight. Sorry.
Of course I was gonna get offended, but whatever.
Whatever you're allowed. And men have not been, you know,
men have not been given safe spaces to express emotion, to
cry, quite honestly, all those things.
(31:57):
The masks that we wear both as men and women, this this fake
mask, if I gotta show up strong,no emotion whatever.
And this sense of other mask forthe women's, I gotta, you know,
show up as always taking care ofit.
Like we each wear this, these masks that just hide our true
selves, and we're not allowing that true yin and Yang of that
cross between us to really be highlighted.
(32:20):
And to shine through. Yeah.
And for women, you know, to, to,to contort and twist and whittle
away their edges in order to tryto fit into the, you know, round
hole. I'm like, make the whole square.
That's what you need to do. Don't whittle away your edge is
because what I find, and I'm sure you find this too, is we're
(32:40):
worried like, oh, can I say that?
Will I be seen as too much? Will I be seen as difficult?
Because statistically it shows women are more critical of other
women. If you look at polling data,
exit polling from political elections, the data shows that
women are more critical of otherwomen who are running for
office. I ran for office in 2009 and I
(33:03):
learned the hard way I would notleave the house unless I had
makeup on, my hair was combed and I was wearing like an
outfit. Because so crazy how quickly we
judge each. Other hair.
Do you think she's OK? We have no grace for each other,
which is so crazy because we should with anybody.
We should have more grace for each other as women because we
know underneath the makeup we have a life.
(33:24):
Like there is something else going on there.
There's something else. We should be fixing each other's
crowns, not knocking them down. Thank you.
I agree. All right, well, we're coming up
to the end of the show, but I'veI really want.
I know we are we God, we could have Jen, you and I have way too
much fun. We honestly, we love working
(33:46):
with women. We really want to see them
achieve. Do more.
You know who you are authentically has come through.
I love that you're talking about, you know, this imposter
paradigm that we're in that doesn't exist, that we've
created. We've created the cage.
Yep, and then we're living in it.
Yeah. And then we don't think we have
the key. And we don't think we have the
key and we do, but it is you do need somebody outside of you, a
(34:10):
coach, whomever to be able to help you see what those keys
are. Because when you're wrapped
around the axle because it's an imposter phenomenon.
And the women who coined the phrase called it imposter
phenomenon. They didn't call it imposter
syndrome because it's phenomenological.
It's an as lived experience in the moment.
So how can we, when you were talking about, you know, making
(34:32):
the time shorter between the moment that you get reactivated
and you take action to the OR the moment that something
happens and you react that that ability to to see it earlier and
then to lengthen the moment between action and reaction.
That is the name of the game, hands down.
From here to eternity. It's never going to go away
(34:54):
because you and I are human. And that means people often ask
me like, will it ever go away? It does once, yeah, when you're
dead. And then they're like, God, that
was gross. I'm like it was the.
Truth. Did she really say that?
You did. She did.
It will go away once when you'redead.
When you're dead. That's going to be the quote for
(35:15):
this entire thing. There you go.
Yeah. Because it's true.
All right, so you last couple things in here.
So you've got a book written. We haven't even talked about
that. Holy moly.
Quick, I know it's called. Make imposter syndrome your
superpower and you can buy it wherever books are sold.
It's the ultimate guide for women in STEM to lead with more
authority, influence, and impact.
(35:35):
It's really made for all leaders.
If you're an entrepreneur, you can read it too, because it's
all the lessons I wish I had 30 years ago when I started
becoming a leader that weren't taught to me because other
people didn't know that they were needed.
Yeah, so. So imposter syndrome becoming
your superpower book link down below in the show notes.
Wherever you're listening to this or watching this, trust me,
(35:56):
you want to get your hands on this.
The other thing that you're sharing with us is the
opportunity to discover your imposter Syndrome flavor.
Yeah, like your unique flavor, where it comes from.
So if you go to jenkokenquiz.com, JENC OK EN
quiz.com, it took you about two minutes because you did it.
(36:16):
Rightly, and I've got it pulled up over here.
It's fantastic. Yeah, so it takes you about 2-3
minutes, but it'll start showingyou where your unique flavor of
Impostor Center might come from.So if you're someone who's a
perfectionist, that might score higher, or if you're somebody
that seeks out external validation, that might score
harder. I was the external validation
(36:37):
because my incident happened, you know, when I was 6.
It also does invite you to book a call with me and I invite
anybody to take it. You want to get on a call and
spit ball some stuff. And I also offer sessions where
we can identify, disrupt and then do a follow up call if
people are interested. And for those that are
listening, for those that are going to take the quiz, I highly
(36:58):
recommended the layout of this. It says, you know, it's your
leadership decoder. So she's got this beautiful
color decoder really highlighting the different areas
where you've scored yourself. And I like the fact that you've
like allow us to kind of really criticize in some ways our own
selves, right? Yeah, you're you're your worst
critic. So you're going to really pull
(37:19):
out what you're looking at. But these seven key areas in
which you kind of dive into, I was like, yeah, yeah.
So going through them, even for me, you know, and they're still
areas, yeah. I don't ever want to be at a
zero. Like, I don't want to be like,
oh, I've got no issues. I'm not so overly like that's
(37:39):
kind of such BS because tomorrowsomething will come.
Up Exactly, exactly, exactly. You cannot say that you're not
any of these like. It just doesn't exist because
you're not like you're, you're ahuman being.
Like we talked about this den. We're human beings.
We are flawed. We're gonna make meaning out of
everything. So enjoy the process, take the
(38:00):
quiz, have some fun with this, learn something about yourself.
Book a call with Jen. I love your photo that you have
in here. It's just so fun and playful.
So definitely spend the time with her.
Grab the quiz, get the book. I think this is something every
woman should have in their handsbecause it really is.
(38:21):
You know, we're evolving and Jenand I are both.
You guys haven't heard it yet. We're both passionate about
making sure us fucking women. Yeah, man, are successful as
successful as fuck? Yes, yes.
It's time so but. Apologizing for existing and
start noticing where you are rounding your corners.
(38:41):
Yeah. Now in some instances, right, we
may need to, there's times when I can come across sharp.
Yes. I want to be able to deliver the
same be, you know, because Clarity's kindness, be direct
and clear, but with kindness andwith love.
And we're always working on that.
But do not ever apologize or back down from who you are.
I always say to people what other people think about you as
(39:01):
none of your business, what you think about you make that your
business. That's the most important
person. Oh.
Great, So what's next for Jen? Oh, oh, I'm having a lot of fun.
You know, when I saw that these companies were hiring outside
their firms, right? I was like, all right, well, I'm
going to develop leadership development pipeline.
(39:22):
So I took all the stuff I've been doing one-on-one and
designed a curriculum that I canbring into companies and can be,
you know, one day, three days, six weeks, six months to train
their next group of high achievers to be C-Suite ready.
But if they can't be C-Suite ready because there's no room in
the C-Suite, they can, you can at least be assured that they
(39:42):
know how to represent the company at any event and can
potentially bring in new business because they have
confidence in themselves. So that's what we're, that's
what we're up to now. And doing a whole bunch of
speaking. I'm doing a pan on executive
presence next week on LinkedIn and a talk at my book signing at
my local library. And then a couple of.
(40:03):
Workshops for an HR group and then I'm speaking at a
conference in Orlando, so lots of fun stuff.
Like that, rocking it so the thefuture looks bright, the world
looks like what you're looking at, and we're definitely making
a difference in an impact. So yeah, yeah, you're welcome.
You're welcome. Thank you for making a
difference and making an impact with this podcast, with all that
(40:24):
you do for the women out there. So important.
Yeah, so ladies that are listening, and I know a few of
you gentlemen are dropping in onthis conversation because you're
curious about what all of us women are talking about, won't
you? He said.
Did she really say that? Honestly, I feel like every
single one of you in my audience, you know that this
conversation is for you. I bring on extraordinary women
who are making a difference, that are challenging the norms
(40:47):
that are poking through all the structures out there and really
supporting and the collaboratingand highlighting and creating
cohorts and all sorts of fun stuff, supporting US women
because you know what, we need it.
And I embrace it. And I love all my sisters for
what they're bringing to the table.
So for everybody that's listening, thank you again for
(41:07):
joining us on Did she Really SayThat?
And we'll see you on the next episode.
Thanks for having me.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Burden
The Burden is a documentary series that takes listeners into the hidden places where justice is done (and undone). It dives deep into the lives of heroes and villains. And it focuses a spotlight on those who triumph even when the odds are against them. Season 5 - The Burden: Death & Deceit in Alliance On April Fools Day 1999, 26-year-old Yvonne Layne was found murdered in her Alliance, Ohio home. David Thorne, her ex-boyfriend and father of one of her children, was instantly a suspect. Another young man admitted to the murder, and David breathed a sigh of relief, until the confessed murderer fingered David; “He paid me to do it.” David was sentenced to life without parole. Two decades later, Pulitzer winner and podcast host, Maggie Freleng (Bone Valley Season 3: Graves County, Wrongful Conviction, Suave) launched a “live” investigation into David's conviction alongside Jason Baldwin (himself wrongfully convicted as a member of the West Memphis Three). Maggie had come to believe that the entire investigation of David was botched by the tiny local police department, or worse, covered up the real killer. Was Maggie correct? Was David’s claim of innocence credible? In Death and Deceit in Alliance, Maggie recounts the case that launched her career, and ultimately, “broke” her.” The results will shock the listener and reduce Maggie to tears and self-doubt. This is not your typical wrongful conviction story. In fact, it turns the genre on its head. It asks the question: What if our champions are foolish? Season 4 - The Burden: Get the Money and Run “Trying to murder my father, this was the thing that put me on the path.” That’s Joe Loya and that path was bank robbery. Bank, bank, bank, bank, bank. In season 4 of The Burden: Get the Money and Run, we hear from Joe who was once the most prolific bank robber in Southern California, and beyond. He used disguises, body doubles, proxies. He leaped over counters, grabbed the money and ran. Even as the FBI was closing in. It was a showdown between a daring bank robber, and a patient FBI agent. Joe was no ordinary bank robber. He was bright, articulate, charismatic, and driven by a dark rage that he summoned up at will. In seven episodes, Joe tells all: the what, the how… and the why. Including why he tried to murder his father. Season 3 - The Burden: Avenger Miriam Lewin is one of Argentina’s leading journalists today. At 19 years old, she was kidnapped off the streets of Buenos Aires for her political activism and thrown into a concentration camp. Thousands of her fellow inmates were executed, tossed alive from a cargo plane into the ocean. Miriam, along with a handful of others, will survive the camp. Then as a journalist, she will wage a decades long campaign to bring her tormentors to justice. Avenger is about one woman’s triumphant battle against unbelievable odds to survive torture, claim justice for the crimes done against her and others like her, and change the future of her country. Season 2 - The Burden: Empire on Blood Empire on Blood is set in the Bronx, NY, in the early 90s, when two young drug dealers ruled an intersection known as “The Corner on Blood.” The boss, Calvin Buari, lived large. He and a protege swore they would build an empire on blood. Then the relationship frayed and the protege accused Calvin of a double homicide which he claimed he didn’t do. But did he? Award-winning journalist Steve Fishman spent seven years to answer that question. This is the story of one man’s last chance to overturn his life sentence. He may prevail, but someone’s gotta pay. The Burden: Empire on Blood is the director’s cut of the true crime classic which reached #1 on the charts when it was first released half a dozen years ago. Season 1 - The Burden In the 1990s, Detective Louis N. Scarcella was legendary. In a city overrun by violent crime, he cracked the toughest cases and put away the worst criminals. “The Hulk” was his nickname. Then the story changed. Scarcella ran into a group of convicted murderers who all say they are innocent. They turned themselves into jailhouse-lawyers and in prison founded a lway firm. When they realized Scarcella helped put many of them away, they set their sights on taking him down. And with the help of a NY Times reporter they have a chance. For years, Scarcella insisted he did nothing wrong. But that’s all he’d say. Until we tracked Scarcella to a sauna in a Russian bathhouse, where he started to talk..and talk and talk. “The guilty have gone free,” he whispered. And then agreed to take us into the belly of the beast. Welcome to The Burden.