November 17, 2025 • 44 mins
Episode Summary
In this insightful episode of "Did She Really Say That?", hosted by Katrina van Oudheusden, we dive into the transformative work of Miriam Jones, a pioneering female entrepreneur and advocate for reconnecting with nature and community. Throughout the conversation, Miriam shares her journey and the valuable lessons she has learned about interdependence, leadership, and the importance of aligning our lives and organizations with natural ecosystems.
Key Discussion Points
The Role of Community and Relationships: Understanding the importance of building strong networks and community ties for personal and professional growth.
Miriam’s Inspirational Initiatives: Insights into the founding of Open Circle and the new Wayfinders program, focusing on belonging, resilience, and intergenerational mentorship.
Interdependence vs. Codependence: Exploring the concept of interdependence in ecosystems and the business world, as opposed to unhealthy codependence.
Listening and Leadership: The transition from traditional leadership to one that listens deeply and facilitates change by aligning with natural movements.
Embracing Tension and Conflict: Viewing tension as a creative force that can lead to breakthrough transformations in organizational and personal contexts.
Reconnecting with Nature: How experiences in the wilderness can teach us about cycles, balance, and living in alignment with the environment.
Guest Bio
Miriam Jones is a visionary entrepreneur and transformational leader, known for her work in creating impactful programs that merge corporate structures with natural ecosystems. Co-founding innovations like Open Circle and launching initiatives like Wayfinders, Miriam is passionate about guiding individuals and organizations toward authentic, nature-informed growth. Her journey includes significant personal growth, driven by her experience as a single mother and her deep desire to leave a meaningful impact.
Recommended Resources & Links Mentioned
Open Circle: An initiative focused on restoring community and connection.
Wayfinders Program: A mentorship platform connecting young people with experienced mentors to create a purpose-driven future.
Walking Wild & Circle Labs: Programs and spaces created by Miriam Jones to further exploration and transformation through nature.
Find out more and connect with Miriam through her LinkedIn or Open Circle Organizational Work
Thanks for listening! If you are enjoying our podcast, leave a comment below. We love hearing from our fans and other female entrepreneurs! We are collaborating to make business better for every woman! Feel free to share this podcast on your favorite social platform. And if you are listening on any of the podcast platforms, we would love it if you could post a 5-star review. Please, help us get our message out! Together, we discover how each woman has the power to unlock another woman when we are open about what we are redefining as women in business.
About Your Host: Katrina van Oudheusden
Former Chef at Walt Disney World® Resort, Restaurateur, Speaker, and CEO of Truth Bomb Marketing. Katrina is a sought-after consultant for small business growth among female entrepreneurs.
She created a revolutionary business training method called ‘CreatHER™ Business Rewire’. Weaving together time, money, and business growth by preventing burnout and strengthening female leadership skills.
Alongside the CreatHER™ Planner, women are finally experiencing less stress in all areas of their lives. When the focus begins with HERself, women discover a freedom to dream big, increase revenue, and design a marketing strategy that works for them.
CreatHer Money Revolution: http://creathersummit.com
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Oh, you just walked into a fabulous episode of Did she
Really Say That? And the answer is, of course,
yes, she did, because we're going to be asking Miriam some
tough questions here about what it means to be a female
entrepreneur. But First off, we're going to
talk about something around community and relationships.
And the reason I invited Miriam to be part of Did She Really Say
(00:23):
That and be here with us on thisepisode is because I love her
energy. I love where she's coming from
in terms of building relationships and she's do done
2 extraordinary things. First off, she Co founded the
Open Circle, which is where the work is all about restoring,
connecting, belonging, resilience, and working with
people who are just struggling to find their footing in the
(00:45):
world. How many of you know of someone
or even know yourself, you can silently raise your hands
because you guys can't see me raising my hand over here.
I do apologize, but I'm asking you to say, hey, this could be
me that have struggled to find your footing, whether it's in
business, it's in the corporate world.
Heck, it could be just motherhood in general or
friendships. If you've been struggling.
(01:05):
This is where Miriam has really kind of stepped in and said
there's a space for this and I can hold it for you.
What's been really interesting is that throughout this year,
she's really been transforming herself, both spiritually,
emotionally, mentally, physically, really focusing on
what's going to make the biggestchange in the world.
And she's started to, and she's launching a program called or an
(01:27):
initiative called The Way Finders, which we're going to be
talking a little bit more about also.
I mean, because I think this is one of those areas where, you
know, we do have a younger generation that is looking for
mentors, that is looking for stewards of the land that are
looking for people to follow. They want more purpose driven
(01:47):
and we're looking for that community, those elders that can
bring this information together.And the Wave Finders is a way
for Miriam to connect us together.
And I think this is such a beautiful place for us to be
because it's transcending the globe, it's transcending
generations, it's transcending cultures, and it's really about
bringing us together, turning usaround to really rediscover our
(02:09):
purpose and bring community backinto our lives.
We are not separate entities saton this earth to be all alone
and miserable. We are here to be coming
together, having fun, united, and sharing wisdom across the
board. So I'm super excited that Miriam
is here. Thank you so much for being here
on the show with us. Great introduction.
(02:32):
Yes, and it is true, we are interdependent.
What? When did that?
Happen I mean a lot of the illusions of the world would say
we're not but yes, if any anyoneyou know when you step out into
nature, you can really see the truth of that Yep, we're in an
interdependent ecosystem and. So let's talk a little bit about
that because I think people think interdependent and
(02:54):
especially with women, we like, we don't want to be dependent on
people, but there is the sense that we're super connected not
only to each other. Like we are literally Miriam,
you and I, we may be distanced by a state, We may be distanced
by, you know, a computer, but weare so connected and we we
relate to each other. We're connected.
And I love the work you're doingaround working with the land.
(03:18):
Let's talk this. Let's let's really break this
down. Diving, well, it was it.
The journey started after years of working in the corporate
world. I was focused on change and I
kind of just, I was like when I was younger, I was like, oh,
corporations evil. Terrible places to be like.
(03:38):
A rebel like every anything alternative.
And then, you know, I started working with corporations like,
well, maybe they're not evil. Actually, that person's pretty
good and that person over there.But I would, I saw a lot of is
blinkers, yeah. And so it was kind of like this
thing that I, I would, I can't see my hands, but it would, it
was like it went from being opento who we are in the bigger
(04:03):
context and the impact that we have to kind of blinkering in to
kind of not seeing. And it'll all be stupid
decisions, like really stupid decisions.
And I was like, I don't know that I want to.
They must be something different.
And that led me into kind of this feeling that where the
(04:23):
world was going, and this was around to the 2000s after
September the 11th, it really led me into kind of seeing that
where we were going, the problems that we were coming up
against. And because we were becoming so
globally interconnected, like itwas not the hero model was not
(04:44):
going to cut it. There was not going to be one
person who could kind of lead usto triumph.
That it was going to be reliant on a collective wisdom on us
all, changing the way that we hold our reality.
And at the root of collective wisdom, like any wisdom
tradition, has a knowledge root.And this knowledge root is
(05:05):
interdependence. That's not codependence,
everyone. Codependence is something
different. Interdependence good.
Codependence. Not always so good, yes.
Right, not always. And this is I'm a, I'm a
codependent recovery person. So I'm seeking experience.
I spent years in my marriage trying to fix my husband.
(05:26):
Don't you worry, that's typical kind of outcome of codependence.
Yeah, yeah. I'll be all right as long as I
can fix you. Yes, if once you're fixed, then
what? Yeah.
Yeah, exactly. Yes, yes, yeah.
That's right. But yeah, interdependence and
really so much of what you mentioned, connection to the
(05:49):
land, so much of the last 10 years of my life have been
reconnecting with the wilderness, with nature in a
different way to really like, let it teach me.
And I have just learned so, so much.
Like it's obvious, but somehow as I've spent a lifetime of
(06:09):
working, you know, 16 hours a day, any working mother knows
you're working 16 to 18 hours at.
Least. At least.
At. Least and like not being kind of
getting caught up in the illusion of like this brick and
mortar in this house and this TVand this computer.
These are the reality. And it's actually when you go
(06:31):
out into nature, it's so evident.
Oh, to be healthy, we need diversity.
Any healthier ecosystem, it needs diversity.
Yeah. Oh, everything is dependent on
the other. It's like this complex web.
Oh, we work in cycles. The sun rises, the sunsets.
And I'm, I'm kind of, I have a slight, you know, tilt to my
(06:54):
voice because I'm talking to myself because it's like.
All these obvious. Simple stuff, but the unlayering
I had to do to get there, like all the beliefs and assumptions
I kind of like placed on top of myself.
So yeah, that's the root of of of the interdependence, not
codependence. Well, I think that's what we
(07:16):
tend to forget. I mean, we're so focused on and
we haven't like you talked aboutthe blinders, like the look at
we got so focused on profitability over people.
We put that as like the cornerstone even, you know, in
business and life and school, itwas all about the bottom line.
It was all about money and less about people.
(07:37):
You know, when you start puttingmoney over people, you lose
everything. You lose a sense of reality, you
lose the sense of what and who actually got you to those
levels. And I think that's the piece.
Yeah. I mean, I think even in that,
the way that I kind of would work with that is even even in
(07:59):
that statement, there's a tendency to go again, money
first, now bad people first goodtick or now we actually need to
swing the other way. And that's why we're in
corporate life. Oh no, we got to put profit
first. Oh no, we got to get put people
1st and it's. A constant.
Like there's a competition between the two and that's that
(08:23):
you could define that as the opposite of interdependence.
Agreeably. Our systems depend on, yes,
money, which is in and of itselfneutral, but represents the
exchange of goods and services, which is healthy.
And of course you know that's weneed that.
And yes, people, yes, our connection to each other is
(08:43):
really important, our well-being.
So it's not either or it's actually being able to kind of
see how those two are interconnected.
And I, you know, that's kind of part of the problem.
For example, you know, in the corporate world, it was, it
would go in these cycles of likethat's good, that's bad, that's
good. No, that's bad.
No. Yeah, there's this constant
(09:05):
juggling is of one supreme over the other, but it they're both
equally and equally important. Like there's not even an and
it's just equally like you need one and the other.
It's like saying the moon's bad and the sound's good.
Yeah. No, they're all part of the
system. They're all part of the system.
(09:25):
Like without the moon we wouldn't have tides.
We don't have like sight like they all echo interdependently
work together. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So and I love that. I love how you bring people back
to nature. So talk to me a little bit for
the audience and listeners. So when you had the open circle
(09:46):
talk to me about like what that was cuz I know it was, I thought
it was fascinating cuz I did introduce you to another guest
that will be on our podcast also.
But you guys talk about corporations and bringing them
back into Mother Nature. I thought this was a fascinating
YEAH journey. Yeah, I've always, you know, my
parents are pioneers. I've always liked to push the
(10:07):
edges. So when I started my first
company, it was like I'm bringing theater and film into
corporate change. I was like, I had a lot of
actors and writers and like, youknow, I had great success and it
was fun. And it was we were able to
reflect back the stories of whatwas going on in organizations
with open circle, the the edges I have.
(10:28):
So at the end of that journey, Ithink in a lot of my work, we
were looking at behavioural change, but I started to see, oh
God, we're going to have to do so many systems change because
technology was coming in thick and fast and systems so fast
change. And yeah.
And we were also, we had all these industrial style models of
(10:50):
management, which is so out of date.
It's like, why are we thinking about our businesses as
industrial? Like we're living in this
moving, breathing ecosystem. Oh, we're in an ecosystem.
Where could I learn about the ecosystem?
Why didn't I go and have a look at it?
So that's, I mean, again, I'm, you know, speaking to myself,
(11:12):
but that was basically the progression.
So it was less, you know, I think the hardest thing is
people would be going like, oh, you do team building.
But no, actually what we were fundamentally looking at is a
paradigm shift. See the way that you built your
organization as an ecosystem andalso a shift.
And that shifts what we are as leaders and as managers.
(11:35):
So it means that we're, instead of using this kind of industrial
model of like, oh, I need to motivate people, I need to
influence them. Oh, we're going to have this
hierarchical model of performance review, you know, as
the complexity of the global systems.
As customers started knowing things before people in the in
the company started knowing them, that started to mess up
(11:56):
that up even more. It was really evident that as
leaders, we needed to become facilitators.
We needed to, instead of listening for how to kind of
like keep things in boxes, we needed to actually listen and
look for the movement. Where are things moving?
OK, how do we move with that? And so that's really what our
(12:18):
organizational work was. It was to assist people with a
actual paradigm shift of how do we move with the movement and,
and still working in that now. And yes, the easiest, a lot of
the work we did actually was on wine at first because we're in
(12:39):
COVID. But it's still the easiest place
to get back in touch with that because it involves, I would say
largely because of our schoolingsystem.
And it involves an unlearning, akind of like stripping back of
what we've kind of attached to leadership and to organizations.
(12:59):
And the best place to do that isactually in nature because it's
so evident there. So you can observe, you can
spend time listening and lookingat how the bird interacts with
the tree and the sun rises and sets, as I said, and, and really
get a sense of like, oh, OK, So what if I saw my organization
(13:20):
life cycle, like the cycle of a day.
Oh, OK, so we're in the birth phase.
Oh, actually in the birth phase,alignment means it's time to
dream. Oh, we're in the kid phase.
Oh, now it's time to play. Oh, we're kind of like an
adolescent now in this project. Oh, now we're like looking at
(13:41):
identity. OK, now we have to let go of all
of that playing and identity andreally like we get into the
service part of it. So it's, it's kind of continuing
to look at that the cycles of change and the biggest story of,
of how we are in organizations and and how to align our
response to it. I love that.
So for our audience that's listening, what's an action that
(14:04):
you that they that they can takethat you can gift them with that
they can start kind of working on on building these
relationships, learning about these ecosystems for themselves.
Like what would be an activity or something they can start
implementing today? I think a really cool.
So we were early days, we were working with Canva and it was
cool and that they were based. For anyone who doesn't know,
(14:27):
they grew out of Sydney and I was back visiting Sydney.
I was living in the States and and so they invited us in and we
worked with the team. We did something really simple
and you can do this even if you're at home or if you're in
an office block. But we said just do this
experiment. Walk through the office like
(14:49):
without or through the room thatyou work in without a purpose.
So like normally when we're traveling, we're saying, oh,
I've got to go to the bathroom and then come back to my
computer. Let's do what we call a Wanda
Wanda, so a Wanda WONTDERWANDER,so a Wanda Wanda and just
(15:09):
observe how and where things aremoving.
Like if you're on your own, I'm I'm in my own office.
Where is my computer placed in relationship to the window?
How do I move? What are my general patterns?
If you're in an office, like what do you observe about
people's general patterns? And so this is starting a
loosening of the hold and how this the hold of I think what's
(15:33):
we've got a hold on, if you're anything with me is here's my
list, 123-4567. I'm very organized.
So as long as I get through my list and if I do my list, that
means, I mean, it's this is not saying goals aren't important,
they are important, but it's linear, OK, In order for my
business to grow, I've got to do1234 and then that's going to
(15:55):
get me to here and then that's going to get me to there.
I'm not saying goals are not important, but we need to
balance them out with letting our sharp focus going back to
the blinkers wide and out and take note of our environment.
Listen to our environment beyondthe blinkers of our goals.
And in that you might notice, like in the context of an
(16:17):
organization, take time out, notice what's going on in your
internal environment. That's an example.
Wandering through simple exercise, going in and see
what's the mood? What do you notice about the
mood of the organization? What do you notice about the
energy levels? Oh, people seem really tired and
disengaged. Then start to observe the
(16:38):
outside world. Don't shut it out.
What's going on outside in the market?
How is it moving? And what it, what all of this is
about is alignment. So instead of kind of having
your blinkers on, the fundamental principle of this is
opening up your listening in an ecosystem.
(16:59):
And it's exactly what you need to do in the wilderness.
You need to have 360° awareness because you need to know what's
going on. If a weather front comes in, you
need to move to shelter. That's the same thing in our
organizations. I want to give one more.
Really, this was a turning pointfor me.
(17:20):
I don't know, Maybe it is for other women too.
So I've never really liked conflict or when things are
tense. I normally will.
I honestly dissociate. I'm a, I'm like a freezer.
So like if someone insults me, I'll usually apologize to them.
(17:40):
That's how bad I am. I'm like, they'll go, oh, you're
obviously like a terrible person.
Too right? You're like, Oh my.
Bad. I'm sorry.
Let me just get out of your way.That's my conflict style.
You know, other people have different conflict styles.
That one of the revelations in doing this work is the
revelation of actually, it's thetension.
(18:04):
I'm going to call it tension rather than conflict.
It's the tension that are the doorways to the next step in the
transformation of your organization.
So it's the tension when you're noticing tension in an
environment or it's like a tension before the storm and
then the storm comes when you'renoticing tension.
(18:25):
One of the biggest skills I havelearned as someone who leads in
this style is to take note of your nervous system or if it's
with your team, notice where thenervous system of your team is
at. Do what you need to de escalate
to make sure people aren't kind of frozen like I would be.
(18:47):
And then really like stay with attention.
So instead of sidelining it, stay with it as a creative,
generative force. It's in that tension that often
lies the genius of the paradigm shift that is needing to happen.
So those kind of two things, opening up your listening and
(19:08):
then that's, you know, awarenessof like working with your own
and others nervous systems and staying with attention in a
situation so it can evolve. Yeah, the key really simple
things that people can work with.
Yeah, there was a conversation Iwas having recently around this
tension that you're talking about, and I think it's it's
(19:28):
beautiful because one of the things she brought it to, I love
string instruments, right. So when you have a string
instrument like a violin or something like that, the tension
of the string depends the sound.If it's too loose, it doesn't
make a sound. If it's too tight, it screeches.
If it's tuned just right and there's enough tension on it,
(19:52):
and you harmonize that tension with the other strings.
So like, that's what you're kindof looking at overalls.
Like, you want to play in that tension because that's where the
music play. That's where you start to dance
with each other. But you have to understand that
that tension isn't a bad thing. It is a space of curiosity.
And it is the ability to find out are you, are you too tight
(20:13):
or are you too loose And do how do we work together as a team to
create that equal tension that each of us play beautifully at?
Yeah, yeah. And I think there's a
discernment in it because I'm not, I'm not suggesting that
sometimes things don't need fixing.
(20:34):
So, you know, it's like what I hear you talking about, there is
attunement, attunement and alignment.
And, and so being able to get the attunement of in your
environment really aligned so that it can be, you know,
(20:55):
cohesive and aligned to where you want to go.
I think the thing with the sort of tension I'm talking about,
let's call it conflict. For.
The sake of it inner, outer conflict is that sometimes that
(21:15):
conflict arises because there issomething technically that needs
fixing. So a technical problem might be
that, you know, a system isn't working and there's sort of
tension around that because the system's not working and
actually just needs a tweak. Got it.
(21:36):
It's technical, but the discernment is often, sometimes
the conflict, let's just call itconflict in this case, is not
coming from something that's technical.
It's coming from something that needs to add its root change in
your system. So it's like you would equate it
(21:57):
to like a changing of direction.OK.
And often and, or you know, whatI would say is it's basically
something at the foundations. It's, you know, it's that that
kind of cliched statement of, you know, you can't create a new
thing when you're thinking about, you can't create a new
(22:18):
thing when you're thinking aboutit in the same way.
So it's that type of conflict tension that actually is the
energy. Two things sparking just like
sex creating a baby or, you know, electricity.
It's two things sparking off each other to create something
new, a new in this case, a new way of seeing things.
(22:39):
And, you know, this kind of leads us into, again, why would
we take people into the wilderness for this kind of work
more often than not? It's also a really good place to
play with what it is for you to step into the unknown, into
unknown territory. And in any, you know, in this
(23:00):
time in the world, there is enormous societal and cultural
change happening, as well as systems change.
Systems change from technology, societal and cultural change
also intermeshed in that. And so there's there's this
constant thing that we're dealing with going back to
talking about nervous systems isthat we are kind of, you know,
(23:25):
we need to become more practicedof what it is to step into the
unknown alone and together. And what happens to us when we
do that. And what what we're seeing
instead of that is kind of like a fight of like, you know, we're
seeing a fight over territory basically, whether it be, you
(23:45):
know, ideological territory or actual territory.
But seeing a fight or a resistance to, to actually
standing together in the unknownand letting that kind of
transcend into sort of a new way.
But it's a process and it happens over a long period of
time. It does, I would agree.
So that gets me as you're talking with your audience.
(24:07):
So this is a pretty bold statement.
It says, when did she really saythat?
Is this podcast? So has there ever been something
you have found yourself saying to a client or maybe saying to a
group of people that had them all stop and look at you and go,
did she just really say that? Like is there anything around
that? Wow, did she really say that?
(24:30):
You know, a funny story comes off.
This is more of a joke. So I was one of my first clients
when I was younger, I used to work with big multinationals.
So I was working Coca-Cola, big job.
You know, I'm in my early 30s, It's about 20 years ago and I
designed this big leadership program with, with lots of
(24:52):
actors and it was like playing stuff out so people could
practice stuff. And part of it was a mock trial.
And, and we have all the top leaders at Coca-Cola.
I'm youngest by about 10 years. I'm facilitating it totally out
of my depth, but hey, brave woman in there and we get up to
it. But also I'm like very
conscious, mostly men of being very proper.
(25:15):
And so I'm trying to be very proper.
And I'm also playing the judge. And there's this break in the in
the in the, in the argument and they, you know, say, what do you
think about that judge? And then I'm, you know, have to
kind of like pass it on to the defense, mock defense attorney.
So there's this pause. And in the middle of this pause,
I let out this Ripper fire. Oh my God.
(25:38):
Everyone was quiet and it was like this moment of this fart
coming out and everyone kind of just looked, looked at each
other and they were so embarrassed for me.
And then as the judge, I said enough, enough hot air out of
you. The only person who can let hot
air out here is the judge. And everyone just like, stop
(26:00):
laughing. It was like, did she really do
that? She did.
Oh my God. And she claimed it even better.
That's a silly example. No, but the because the idea is
like you do challenge a lot of norms.
So there's always the questions like do people come to you and
go like, wow, did she say that? Like, did she really kind of
(26:22):
like, you know, kind of put me in my place, take, you know,
take a moment and say something that maybe kind of shook my core
foundation for what I believed? Yeah, I think that's less my
role now. OK.
And my role now is to listen andreflect.
And I think the closest I'll getto that is we do this process.
(26:47):
So part of our process with the nonprofit work is really simply
we take people out into nature. We do, we open people up and
then we do it a fast. So people go out on their own
without a tent, without food, definitely without their phone
and water. And then when they come back,
(27:08):
they tell a story of they had reflected on out there.
It's often it sounds, it is simple, but the things that come
out of it are really astounding in a lot of ways.
And so we do this process where they tell their story and then
we reflect back the story. And often it's a form of, it's
(27:28):
not just repeating back the words, it's a deep sense of who
that person is. And it's very risky because, and
this happens whether it's an individual or a team or a group
of people. You know, we've taken families,
teams, like lots of different types of groups, networks.
(27:49):
It's a very like to reflect backto a group kind of what you're
hearing at its essence is incredibly a kind of truth is
incredibly con feeling feels conincredibly risky, but it's it's
not a challenge. It's always done.
(28:12):
I think I did a lot of that challenging when I was younger,
like, you know, in rooms with 20men, me being the only woman I
seen theme in my life, a lot of like.
And now it's like always at the centre is deep love and that's
how I check myself. So did she really say that?
(28:34):
For me now is like. It's a listening.
It's a listening. It's a deep.
Yeah. It's not a say.
It's a listen for you. Yeah.
It's a deep listening with love and you know, maybe I'm just
getting old, but. Well, here's the the shift for
you is did she really like did she really listen from love,
(28:59):
right? And I think that is the ever
evolving of this conversation isthat there is moments where we
surprise ourselves by falling inlove with ourselves.
And the journey that you're on is also now with the building
this nonprofit Wayfinders. So like, why is this work
important to you now? Oh, now you're going to make me
(29:20):
cry? I'm guessing there are a lot of
mothers here. Jeez, it's so I'm a single mum.
I can't do it. Well, you know, I've given up.
You have to give up. I've had to give up perfection
being and not that I ever was for perfection.
But I guess as a single mother of three kids and for a long
(29:43):
time now and their dad said completely, all three kids,
their dads are absent for various reasons.
There's only two of them. It sounded like there was 5
fathers. There's two fathers, 11 dead and
the other is an addict and dealing with his own problems.
So yeah, I think the emotions I feel the best I could do in my
(30:09):
motherhood was to love my kids and just keep growing as a
human. And I have, after going through
a period of really kind, doing my work and shutting out the
world, I've spent the last sevenyears opening up to the world
again and grieving a lot about what I feel as I open up to the
(30:32):
world. But I think having my girls
leaving home now, it's like it's, it's hard.
And we haven't prepared our schooling system.
I'm not even talking us as mothers.
Our schooling system hasn't prepared them for this.
At its core, we're asking our kids to have major discernment.
(30:54):
You know, they have to have the capacity to take in all of this
information and be able to discern what's true and what's
not, be able to not. They're not being given a path.
There's not a set path anymore. So they have to make, they have
to have so much self-awareness that they can make choices.
Plus they're suffering A moral injury that they've been given a
(31:16):
world that seems to them, whether this is the reality or
not, seems to them to many of them like it's not functional
and an environment which seems to have been, you know, you can
judge it anywhere but not be optimal.
Let's just say it that way. And so and we haven't educated
(31:38):
them for that. We've got an old style school of
school of system and then we have alternatives.
But often they're just literallylike the opposite of that and
still are not doing the preparation in a really good
way. And so I just as I was doing
this work and I was feeling the power of it, I felt the power of
(32:01):
the impact it was having. And I asked myself, well, I'm
what, what in this next phase ofmy life, what is the biggest
impact this work can have? And, and I really felt that the
biggest impact, and this is me coming up.
I made some really tough choices.
(32:22):
I was a mum by the age of 22 andit was really hard, made my life
very hard. I was doing drugs as a young
mother, you know, I'm not a drugaddict, but I was partying and
that was not a good decision that made life harder.
And I didn't, I know that those decisions I made at that time in
my life actually had long term impacts on my life.
(32:47):
And so if we can give, given ourkids a hard road to travel down,
we haven't prepared them for it.And also this is their setting
thinkers as they go through their, you know, as they leave
home and go through their 20s. And so Wayfinders is to help
with that. So it's first of all, the sort
(33:11):
of self knowledge and self efficacy.
Your ability to make choices is what this work teaches.
It also comes back to which I think is a driving force is of
purposefulness is how you are being called to serve your
community, which is very different to how are you being
(33:33):
how do I make money and how do Isurvive?
The question changes. And that's also like if you have
that question, that is definitely how you get purpose
and meaning in your life doesn'tno matter what religion or
spiritual orientation you have. And then, you know, being able
to also train adults as mentors in the skills to walk alongside
(33:58):
young adults, not tell them whatto do, not feel shameful about
what they have or have not giventhem, but be able to really
listen and receive the reciprocal energy of the energy
of youth and be able to be nourished by that.
And for that adult to be heard and respected for the questions
(34:21):
that they're asking and the guidance they're providing.
And so that's kind of like what I, I've done work with young
adults before, but then I saw them going back and there was no
support there or not enough. And it, you know, it's rare.
There's like a, there's like a severance.
There's something that happened that severed that ability to
have that. And I don't know if it's
(34:42):
communities or if the Internet really broke or dissolved this,
but there is this the deck you're talking about.
It's like the kids place to be able to be mentored by somebody.
The the elderly myself is inspired by our youth and they
have questions. So what can we impart on them?
That wisdom that flows both waysbecause there is something
(35:05):
around that creativity that the world through new set of eyes
that I think, you know, I enjoy experiencing and seeing and then
having them being open to hearing what we've experienced
is is that balance that we continue to weave.
Yeah. And then and then like being,
you know, I think I, I don't know about you, but I'm pretty
(35:26):
overwhelmed as a middle-aged woman.
And I think there are a lot of people who are pretty
overwhelmed. Yes.
Like that things up to be too easy.
Yeah, so, you know, and then, you know, and then we stick for
the Mcgrath's majority. We're ignoring a whole source of
wisdom, which is in the elderly.Yes.
(35:49):
You know, and giving it was fascinating.
Last season I called summer in summer I went, I was in Alaska
and I was doing a pilot in one of these programs.
The El the guy who was the olderguy who was telling stories and
really listening to the to both the adults and the kids that
were there. And but you know, and but
(36:11):
occasionally like coming in withsome cracker wisdom said at the
end, I feel like I finally come into my own.
I feel like the mistakes I've made and the pain I've gone
through in this environment, they now have a purpose.
And I cried. I was like, Oh my God.
And so much of this is so simpleand intrinsic.
(36:33):
Like how do you look after your environment?
WellCare about it. Learn how it teaches you once
you care about and you learn, Oh, shoot this.
The environment is a teacher. It's this valuable?
Reason. You're going to care for it.
You know, how do you come back to, you know, like, oh wow,
we've great, we've got AI AI nowlet's go back to healing and
(36:55):
being able to be in relationshipwith other humans because there
is so much generative ability there.
We're separated in these kind ofcontainers, so.
Yeah, these silos of craziness. Yeah.
So it's an extended program, hasa wilderness component.
We're designing it so we can scale it.
So we'll seed it. So we're seeding it next year in
Ventura County, in California, in Minnesota, in Alaska.
(37:19):
But it's where the whole idea ofthis is that I, I mean, I would
hope that the foundation doesn'tneed to be in business in, you
know, 10 years. I, I mean, I would hope that.
But the whole idea is that we seed this in communities around
the world. And actually once you seed it,
(37:39):
it has its own life because it is a natural way that we
interrelate. It's just something to kind of
break and remember who, you know, who we are and what's
important to us in community. And that's really and unlearn
some of the bad habits we pickedup.
So that's really kind of like what it is pretty simple.
(38:00):
And yeah, I'm, I, it's and it's blessed work.
I, I'm to be around. I just took a mother and son
out. Oh, the the son about to turn
21, first time he had been camping, took him out in the
wilderness. I was so scared.
I put the sound. I said you've been much more
(38:22):
dangerous in your house in New York City.
And then there is here in the woods, yeah.
This is true, but the joy on hisface when he just spent 4 hours
on his own following the river and like thinking about his life
and the joy, it was like everything his whole face
changed and he just texted me before this going.
Do you have a like list of camping equipment I can get from
(38:44):
you? Absolutely.
Here you go. He's like, I'm going to mark my
life every seven years, come outand do this reflection and work
out what I want and what I don'twant to take with me.
And and you know that's it's simple, but that's what it's
about. It is.
It's getting back to where you can clear your mind and they're,
you're so distracted by technology, by this ever racing
of television and computers and digital phones.
(39:07):
And as great as they have been, there's also the sense of
detaching from it and just getting really back into
yourself, asking yourself questions and listening again.
Yeah. And I think the main thing we're
also, I mean with the nonprofit,we are like we're taking
families out, but we're chargingfor that.
With the nonprofit, we're reallyfocusing on and as young adults
(39:30):
said to me the other day, this is everyone but focusing on, you
know, what it is to have a different relationship with your
trauma as well. So we're dealing a lot of a lot
of people with complex trauma and trauma and really going back
to a where we started, I guess circling back right to the
beginning, is that the place that you can really move through
(39:56):
in defining your gift of serviceis really through travelling
through the wounds you have accumulated.
That's where the wisdom is. I feel like the tension, and
I've just seen it so like that, changing the relationship with
the trauma to let it. In the very painful healing
journey of like seeing it, forgiving.
(40:19):
Yes. Part of that forgiveness, but
then coming through it and beingable to through that, have an
understanding that no one else does, how to use that to give
back, is really so central to this as well.
Yeah, we could be wrapping up the subjects.
I would feel we could go on and on and on.
But here's what I'm going to tell all of our listeners.
(40:40):
Miriam has given you some great tips and insight really around
how to get started, getting backto yourself again, taking that
time to understand who you are in your environment, whether
it's career, whether it's a soleentrepreneur, giving those first
tasks of even walking through your office space, the wandering
(41:01):
wander, the wandering wander, the wandering wander.
How does this O and then a the wandering wander and letting
yourself just experience or newly see the environments that
you're in do this at home, walk through your kitchen.
Most of the time we do not take in the actual space.
It's the mindfulness of it. And I know there are a lot of
(41:21):
groups and ways that you can connect with Miriam.
There is The Walking wild. There is the circle labs that
she has. There's the open circle.
There is, you know, the ways finders that's coming in.
So all these notes, all these ways to connect are going to be
down in the show notes. So whether you're listening on
your favorite podcast platform, you're following us on YouTube,
(41:45):
you're checking out our website,that information is there for
you so that you can connect to me.
Because this is a passion project for her.
You can hear it in her voice. You can feel it resonate.
If you've been watching us on video here on Spotify, you can
actually just feel that energy coming across from her.
This is something that is transforming lives, families,
(42:06):
communities, corporations. It has a social economical
impact beyond just you. And I invite you to really
connect with her, find out whereshe's at.
I know she's going to be doing some collaboration.
I know she's been reaching out to some incredible people.
So I invite you just to to get to know her, see if there's an
area that you can collaborate with her in and just take this
(42:29):
into your space because nature, environment, stepping out,
looking out can really change anything and everything around
us. So any last words of wisdom,
Miriam, before we wrap up? No, I just, I'm really grateful
for you. It's really, you know, so much
of this of, you know, the other side of listening is being able
(42:53):
to Share your story and being able to be seen for who you are.
And the gift of did she really say that is really like us as
women really like listening and seeing and acknowledging each
other's stories and that they all all have a place.
Everyone has a place and a unique gift.
And yeah, I just, I guess I really, I'm just starting off
(43:16):
this prop, this journey as a nonprofit, and I am calling in
patrons for this work. So I just want to just want to
say that loud and clear. I really want this work to scale
and grow. I believe it's needs to happen
quickly and soon. And so really calling in
patrons, and I'm saying that here in case anyone's listening,
(43:38):
but I'm also just claiming it. I'm claiming that good healing
work in the world. And that includes everyone here
listening. I'm claiming it in on behalf of
myself and everyone here, that good healing work in the world
is that it is not just like creeping up on surviving, but it
thrives and money flows stronglyas living water through all of
(44:03):
this work. And so I just want to, I like
it, she said it. She said it, she's claiming it.
She's like, this is who I am, this is what I'm creating.
This is my call to the world. This is who they're listening.
So if you're in here, you find that you can connect with her.
You've got you resonated with her.
I'm telling you, you just never know who you're going to meet
(44:25):
here on. Did she really say that?
So I want to thank all my listeners for listening and you
guys know the drill. If you love this conversation,
comment down below. Let Miriam know how awesome she
is. If you like this entire episode
that we've been putting together, give us a five star
rating. We definitely love that one.
I'm calling that out in the world too.
But most of all, thank you so much for spending your time with
us here today on this episode. And as a listener, I invite you
(44:48):
to stick around and come back and visit us on our next.
But that have a great day everyone.
Oh, you just walked into a fabulous episode of Did she
Really Say That? And the answer is, of course,
yes, she did, because we're going to be asking Miriam some
tough questions here about what it means to be a female
entrepreneur. But First off, we're going to
talk about something around community and relationships.
And the reason I invited Miriam to be part of Did She Really Say
(00:23):
That and be here with us on thisepisode is because I love her
energy. I love where she's coming from
in terms of building relationships and she's do done
2 extraordinary things. First off, she Co founded the
Open Circle, which is where the work is all about restoring,
connecting, belonging, resilience, and working with
people who are just struggling to find their footing in the
(00:45):
world. How many of you know of someone
or even know yourself, you can silently raise your hands
because you guys can't see me raising my hand over here.
I do apologize, but I'm asking you to say, hey, this could be
me that have struggled to find your footing, whether it's in
business, it's in the corporate world.
Heck, it could be just motherhood in general or
friendships. If you've been struggling.
(01:05):
This is where Miriam has really kind of stepped in and said
there's a space for this and I can hold it for you.
What's been really interesting is that throughout this year,
she's really been transforming herself, both spiritually,
emotionally, mentally, physically, really focusing on
what's going to make the biggestchange in the world.
And she's started to, and she's launching a program called or an
(01:27):
initiative called The Way Finders, which we're going to be
talking a little bit more about also.
I mean, because I think this is one of those areas where, you
know, we do have a younger generation that is looking for
mentors, that is looking for stewards of the land that are
looking for people to follow. They want more purpose driven
(01:47):
and we're looking for that community, those elders that can
bring this information together.And the Wave Finders is a way
for Miriam to connect us together.
And I think this is such a beautiful place for us to be
because it's transcending the globe, it's transcending
generations, it's transcending cultures, and it's really about
bringing us together, turning usaround to really rediscover our
(02:09):
purpose and bring community backinto our lives.
We are not separate entities saton this earth to be all alone
and miserable. We are here to be coming
together, having fun, united, and sharing wisdom across the
board. So I'm super excited that Miriam
is here. Thank you so much for being here
on the show with us. Great introduction.
(02:32):
Yes, and it is true, we are interdependent.
What? When did that?
Happen I mean a lot of the illusions of the world would say
we're not but yes, if any anyoneyou know when you step out into
nature, you can really see the truth of that Yep, we're in an
interdependent ecosystem and. So let's talk a little bit about
that because I think people think interdependent and
(02:54):
especially with women, we like, we don't want to be dependent on
people, but there is the sense that we're super connected not
only to each other. Like we are literally Miriam,
you and I, we may be distanced by a state, We may be distanced
by, you know, a computer, but weare so connected and we we
relate to each other. We're connected.
And I love the work you're doingaround working with the land.
(03:18):
Let's talk this. Let's let's really break this
down. Diving, well, it was it.
The journey started after years of working in the corporate
world. I was focused on change and I
kind of just, I was like when I was younger, I was like, oh,
corporations evil. Terrible places to be like.
(03:38):
A rebel like every anything alternative.
And then, you know, I started working with corporations like,
well, maybe they're not evil. Actually, that person's pretty
good and that person over there.But I would, I saw a lot of is
blinkers, yeah. And so it was kind of like this
thing that I, I would, I can't see my hands, but it would, it
was like it went from being opento who we are in the bigger
(04:03):
context and the impact that we have to kind of blinkering in to
kind of not seeing. And it'll all be stupid
decisions, like really stupid decisions.
And I was like, I don't know that I want to.
They must be something different.
And that led me into kind of this feeling that where the
(04:23):
world was going, and this was around to the 2000s after
September the 11th, it really led me into kind of seeing that
where we were going, the problems that we were coming up
against. And because we were becoming so
globally interconnected, like itwas not the hero model was not
(04:44):
going to cut it. There was not going to be one
person who could kind of lead usto triumph.
That it was going to be reliant on a collective wisdom on us
all, changing the way that we hold our reality.
And at the root of collective wisdom, like any wisdom
tradition, has a knowledge root.And this knowledge root is
(05:05):
interdependence. That's not codependence,
everyone. Codependence is something
different. Interdependence good.
Codependence. Not always so good, yes.
Right, not always. And this is I'm a, I'm a
codependent recovery person. So I'm seeking experience.
I spent years in my marriage trying to fix my husband.
(05:26):
Don't you worry, that's typical kind of outcome of codependence.
Yeah, yeah. I'll be all right as long as I
can fix you. Yes, if once you're fixed, then
what? Yeah.
Yeah, exactly. Yes, yes, yeah.
That's right. But yeah, interdependence and
really so much of what you mentioned, connection to the
(05:49):
land, so much of the last 10 years of my life have been
reconnecting with the wilderness, with nature in a
different way to really like, let it teach me.
And I have just learned so, so much.
Like it's obvious, but somehow as I've spent a lifetime of
(06:09):
working, you know, 16 hours a day, any working mother knows
you're working 16 to 18 hours at.
Least. At least.
At. Least and like not being kind of
getting caught up in the illusion of like this brick and
mortar in this house and this TVand this computer.
These are the reality. And it's actually when you go
(06:31):
out into nature, it's so evident.
Oh, to be healthy, we need diversity.
Any healthier ecosystem, it needs diversity.
Yeah. Oh, everything is dependent on
the other. It's like this complex web.
Oh, we work in cycles. The sun rises, the sunsets.
And I'm, I'm kind of, I have a slight, you know, tilt to my
(06:54):
voice because I'm talking to myself because it's like.
All these obvious. Simple stuff, but the unlayering
I had to do to get there, like all the beliefs and assumptions
I kind of like placed on top of myself.
So yeah, that's the root of of of the interdependence, not
codependence. Well, I think that's what we
(07:16):
tend to forget. I mean, we're so focused on and
we haven't like you talked aboutthe blinders, like the look at
we got so focused on profitability over people.
We put that as like the cornerstone even, you know, in
business and life and school, itwas all about the bottom line.
It was all about money and less about people.
(07:37):
You know, when you start puttingmoney over people, you lose
everything. You lose a sense of reality, you
lose the sense of what and who actually got you to those
levels. And I think that's the piece.
Yeah. I mean, I think even in that,
the way that I kind of would work with that is even even in
(07:59):
that statement, there's a tendency to go again, money
first, now bad people first goodtick or now we actually need to
swing the other way. And that's why we're in
corporate life. Oh no, we got to put profit
first. Oh no, we got to get put people
1st and it's. A constant.
Like there's a competition between the two and that's that
(08:23):
you could define that as the opposite of interdependence.
Agreeably. Our systems depend on, yes,
money, which is in and of itselfneutral, but represents the
exchange of goods and services, which is healthy.
And of course you know that's weneed that.
And yes, people, yes, our connection to each other is
(08:43):
really important, our well-being.
So it's not either or it's actually being able to kind of
see how those two are interconnected.
And I, you know, that's kind of part of the problem.
For example, you know, in the corporate world, it was, it
would go in these cycles of likethat's good, that's bad, that's
good. No, that's bad.
No. Yeah, there's this constant
(09:05):
juggling is of one supreme over the other, but it they're both
equally and equally important. Like there's not even an and
it's just equally like you need one and the other.
It's like saying the moon's bad and the sound's good.
Yeah. No, they're all part of the
system. They're all part of the system.
(09:25):
Like without the moon we wouldn't have tides.
We don't have like sight like they all echo interdependently
work together. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So and I love that. I love how you bring people back
to nature. So talk to me a little bit for
the audience and listeners. So when you had the open circle
(09:46):
talk to me about like what that was cuz I know it was, I thought
it was fascinating cuz I did introduce you to another guest
that will be on our podcast also.
But you guys talk about corporations and bringing them
back into Mother Nature. I thought this was a fascinating
YEAH journey. Yeah, I've always, you know, my
parents are pioneers. I've always liked to push the
(10:07):
edges. So when I started my first
company, it was like I'm bringing theater and film into
corporate change. I was like, I had a lot of
actors and writers and like, youknow, I had great success and it
was fun. And it was we were able to
reflect back the stories of whatwas going on in organizations
with open circle, the the edges I have.
(10:28):
So at the end of that journey, Ithink in a lot of my work, we
were looking at behavioural change, but I started to see, oh
God, we're going to have to do so many systems change because
technology was coming in thick and fast and systems so fast
change. And yeah.
And we were also, we had all these industrial style models of
(10:50):
management, which is so out of date.
It's like, why are we thinking about our businesses as
industrial? Like we're living in this
moving, breathing ecosystem. Oh, we're in an ecosystem.
Where could I learn about the ecosystem?
Why didn't I go and have a look at it?
So that's, I mean, again, I'm, you know, speaking to myself,
(11:12):
but that was basically the progression.
So it was less, you know, I think the hardest thing is
people would be going like, oh, you do team building.
But no, actually what we were fundamentally looking at is a
paradigm shift. See the way that you built your
organization as an ecosystem andalso a shift.
And that shifts what we are as leaders and as managers.
(11:35):
So it means that we're, instead of using this kind of industrial
model of like, oh, I need to motivate people, I need to
influence them. Oh, we're going to have this
hierarchical model of performance review, you know, as
the complexity of the global systems.
As customers started knowing things before people in the in
the company started knowing them, that started to mess up
(11:56):
that up even more. It was really evident that as
leaders, we needed to become facilitators.
We needed to, instead of listening for how to kind of
like keep things in boxes, we needed to actually listen and
look for the movement. Where are things moving?
OK, how do we move with that? And so that's really what our
(12:18):
organizational work was. It was to assist people with a
actual paradigm shift of how do we move with the movement and,
and still working in that now. And yes, the easiest, a lot of
the work we did actually was on wine at first because we're in
(12:39):
COVID. But it's still the easiest place
to get back in touch with that because it involves, I would say
largely because of our schoolingsystem.
And it involves an unlearning, akind of like stripping back of
what we've kind of attached to leadership and to organizations.
(12:59):
And the best place to do that isactually in nature because it's
so evident there. So you can observe, you can
spend time listening and lookingat how the bird interacts with
the tree and the sun rises and sets, as I said, and, and really
get a sense of like, oh, OK, So what if I saw my organization
(13:20):
life cycle, like the cycle of a day.
Oh, OK, so we're in the birth phase.
Oh, actually in the birth phase,alignment means it's time to
dream. Oh, we're in the kid phase.
Oh, now it's time to play. Oh, we're kind of like an
adolescent now in this project. Oh, now we're like looking at
(13:41):
identity. OK, now we have to let go of all
of that playing and identity andreally like we get into the
service part of it. So it's, it's kind of continuing
to look at that the cycles of change and the biggest story of,
of how we are in organizations and and how to align our
response to it. I love that.
So for our audience that's listening, what's an action that
(14:04):
you that they that they can takethat you can gift them with that
they can start kind of working on on building these
relationships, learning about these ecosystems for themselves.
Like what would be an activity or something they can start
implementing today? I think a really cool.
So we were early days, we were working with Canva and it was
cool and that they were based. For anyone who doesn't know,
(14:27):
they grew out of Sydney and I was back visiting Sydney.
I was living in the States and and so they invited us in and we
worked with the team. We did something really simple
and you can do this even if you're at home or if you're in
an office block. But we said just do this
experiment. Walk through the office like
(14:49):
without or through the room thatyou work in without a purpose.
So like normally when we're traveling, we're saying, oh,
I've got to go to the bathroom and then come back to my
computer. Let's do what we call a Wanda
Wanda, so a Wanda WONTDERWANDER,so a Wanda Wanda and just
(15:09):
observe how and where things aremoving.
Like if you're on your own, I'm I'm in my own office.
Where is my computer placed in relationship to the window?
How do I move? What are my general patterns?
If you're in an office, like what do you observe about
people's general patterns? And so this is starting a
loosening of the hold and how this the hold of I think what's
(15:33):
we've got a hold on, if you're anything with me is here's my
list, 123-4567. I'm very organized.
So as long as I get through my list and if I do my list, that
means, I mean, it's this is not saying goals aren't important,
they are important, but it's linear, OK, In order for my
business to grow, I've got to do1234 and then that's going to
(15:55):
get me to here and then that's going to get me to there.
I'm not saying goals are not important, but we need to
balance them out with letting our sharp focus going back to
the blinkers wide and out and take note of our environment.
Listen to our environment beyondthe blinkers of our goals.
And in that you might notice, like in the context of an
(16:17):
organization, take time out, notice what's going on in your
internal environment. That's an example.
Wandering through simple exercise, going in and see
what's the mood? What do you notice about the
mood of the organization? What do you notice about the
energy levels? Oh, people seem really tired and
disengaged. Then start to observe the
(16:38):
outside world. Don't shut it out.
What's going on outside in the market?
How is it moving? And what it, what all of this is
about is alignment. So instead of kind of having
your blinkers on, the fundamental principle of this is
opening up your listening in an ecosystem.
(16:59):
And it's exactly what you need to do in the wilderness.
You need to have 360° awareness because you need to know what's
going on. If a weather front comes in, you
need to move to shelter. That's the same thing in our
organizations. I want to give one more.
Really, this was a turning pointfor me.
(17:20):
I don't know, Maybe it is for other women too.
So I've never really liked conflict or when things are
tense. I normally will.
I honestly dissociate. I'm a, I'm like a freezer.
So like if someone insults me, I'll usually apologize to them.
(17:40):
That's how bad I am. I'm like, they'll go, oh, you're
obviously like a terrible person.
Too right? You're like, Oh my.
Bad. I'm sorry.
Let me just get out of your way.That's my conflict style.
You know, other people have different conflict styles.
That one of the revelations in doing this work is the
revelation of actually, it's thetension.
(18:04):
I'm going to call it tension rather than conflict.
It's the tension that are the doorways to the next step in the
transformation of your organization.
So it's the tension when you're noticing tension in an
environment or it's like a tension before the storm and
then the storm comes when you'renoticing tension.
(18:25):
One of the biggest skills I havelearned as someone who leads in
this style is to take note of your nervous system or if it's
with your team, notice where thenervous system of your team is
at. Do what you need to de escalate
to make sure people aren't kind of frozen like I would be.
(18:47):
And then really like stay with attention.
So instead of sidelining it, stay with it as a creative,
generative force. It's in that tension that often
lies the genius of the paradigm shift that is needing to happen.
So those kind of two things, opening up your listening and
(19:08):
then that's, you know, awarenessof like working with your own
and others nervous systems and staying with attention in a
situation so it can evolve. Yeah, the key really simple
things that people can work with.
Yeah, there was a conversation Iwas having recently around this
tension that you're talking about, and I think it's it's
(19:28):
beautiful because one of the things she brought it to, I love
string instruments, right. So when you have a string
instrument like a violin or something like that, the tension
of the string depends the sound.If it's too loose, it doesn't
make a sound. If it's too tight, it screeches.
If it's tuned just right and there's enough tension on it,
(19:52):
and you harmonize that tension with the other strings.
So like, that's what you're kindof looking at overalls.
Like, you want to play in that tension because that's where the
music play. That's where you start to dance
with each other. But you have to understand that
that tension isn't a bad thing. It is a space of curiosity.
And it is the ability to find out are you, are you too tight
(20:13):
or are you too loose And do how do we work together as a team to
create that equal tension that each of us play beautifully at?
Yeah, yeah. And I think there's a
discernment in it because I'm not, I'm not suggesting that
sometimes things don't need fixing.
(20:34):
So, you know, it's like what I hear you talking about, there is
attunement, attunement and alignment.
And, and so being able to get the attunement of in your
environment really aligned so that it can be, you know,
(20:55):
cohesive and aligned to where you want to go.
I think the thing with the sort of tension I'm talking about,
let's call it conflict. For.
The sake of it inner, outer conflict is that sometimes that
(21:15):
conflict arises because there issomething technically that needs
fixing. So a technical problem might be
that, you know, a system isn't working and there's sort of
tension around that because the system's not working and
actually just needs a tweak. Got it.
(21:36):
It's technical, but the discernment is often, sometimes
the conflict, let's just call itconflict in this case, is not
coming from something that's technical.
It's coming from something that needs to add its root change in
your system. So it's like you would equate it
(21:57):
to like a changing of direction.OK.
And often and, or you know, whatI would say is it's basically
something at the foundations. It's, you know, it's that that
kind of cliched statement of, you know, you can't create a new
thing when you're thinking about, you can't create a new
(22:18):
thing when you're thinking aboutit in the same way.
So it's that type of conflict tension that actually is the
energy. Two things sparking just like
sex creating a baby or, you know, electricity.
It's two things sparking off each other to create something
new, a new in this case, a new way of seeing things.
(22:39):
And, you know, this kind of leads us into, again, why would
we take people into the wilderness for this kind of work
more often than not? It's also a really good place to
play with what it is for you to step into the unknown, into
unknown territory. And in any, you know, in this
(23:00):
time in the world, there is enormous societal and cultural
change happening, as well as systems change.
Systems change from technology, societal and cultural change
also intermeshed in that. And so there's there's this
constant thing that we're dealing with going back to
talking about nervous systems isthat we are kind of, you know,
(23:25):
we need to become more practicedof what it is to step into the
unknown alone and together. And what happens to us when we
do that. And what what we're seeing
instead of that is kind of like a fight of like, you know, we're
seeing a fight over territory basically, whether it be, you
(23:45):
know, ideological territory or actual territory.
But seeing a fight or a resistance to, to actually
standing together in the unknownand letting that kind of
transcend into sort of a new way.
But it's a process and it happens over a long period of
time. It does, I would agree.
So that gets me as you're talking with your audience.
(24:07):
So this is a pretty bold statement.
It says, when did she really saythat?
Is this podcast? So has there ever been something
you have found yourself saying to a client or maybe saying to a
group of people that had them all stop and look at you and go,
did she just really say that? Like is there anything around
that? Wow, did she really say that?
(24:30):
You know, a funny story comes off.
This is more of a joke. So I was one of my first clients
when I was younger, I used to work with big multinationals.
So I was working Coca-Cola, big job.
You know, I'm in my early 30s, It's about 20 years ago and I
designed this big leadership program with, with lots of
(24:52):
actors and it was like playing stuff out so people could
practice stuff. And part of it was a mock trial.
And, and we have all the top leaders at Coca-Cola.
I'm youngest by about 10 years. I'm facilitating it totally out
of my depth, but hey, brave woman in there and we get up to
it. But also I'm like very
conscious, mostly men of being very proper.
(25:15):
And so I'm trying to be very proper.
And I'm also playing the judge. And there's this break in the in
the in the, in the argument and they, you know, say, what do you
think about that judge? And then I'm, you know, have to
kind of like pass it on to the defense, mock defense attorney.
So there's this pause. And in the middle of this pause,
I let out this Ripper fire. Oh my God.
(25:38):
Everyone was quiet and it was like this moment of this fart
coming out and everyone kind of just looked, looked at each
other and they were so embarrassed for me.
And then as the judge, I said enough, enough hot air out of
you. The only person who can let hot
air out here is the judge. And everyone just like, stop
(26:00):
laughing. It was like, did she really do
that? She did.
Oh my God. And she claimed it even better.
That's a silly example. No, but the because the idea is
like you do challenge a lot of norms.
So there's always the questions like do people come to you and
go like, wow, did she say that? Like, did she really kind of
(26:22):
like, you know, kind of put me in my place, take, you know,
take a moment and say something that maybe kind of shook my core
foundation for what I believed? Yeah, I think that's less my
role now. OK.
And my role now is to listen andreflect.
And I think the closest I'll getto that is we do this process.
(26:47):
So part of our process with the nonprofit work is really simply
we take people out into nature. We do, we open people up and
then we do it a fast. So people go out on their own
without a tent, without food, definitely without their phone
and water. And then when they come back,
(27:08):
they tell a story of they had reflected on out there.
It's often it sounds, it is simple, but the things that come
out of it are really astounding in a lot of ways.
And so we do this process where they tell their story and then
we reflect back the story. And often it's a form of, it's
(27:28):
not just repeating back the words, it's a deep sense of who
that person is. And it's very risky because, and
this happens whether it's an individual or a team or a group
of people. You know, we've taken families,
teams, like lots of different types of groups, networks.
(27:49):
It's a very like to reflect backto a group kind of what you're
hearing at its essence is incredibly a kind of truth is
incredibly con feeling feels conincredibly risky, but it's it's
not a challenge. It's always done.
(28:12):
I think I did a lot of that challenging when I was younger,
like, you know, in rooms with 20men, me being the only woman I
seen theme in my life, a lot of like.
And now it's like always at the centre is deep love and that's
how I check myself. So did she really say that?
(28:34):
For me now is like. It's a listening.
It's a listening. It's a deep.
Yeah. It's not a say.
It's a listen for you. Yeah.
It's a deep listening with love and you know, maybe I'm just
getting old, but. Well, here's the the shift for
you is did she really like did she really listen from love,
(28:59):
right? And I think that is the ever
evolving of this conversation isthat there is moments where we
surprise ourselves by falling inlove with ourselves.
And the journey that you're on is also now with the building
this nonprofit Wayfinders. So like, why is this work
important to you now? Oh, now you're going to make me
(29:20):
cry? I'm guessing there are a lot of
mothers here. Jeez, it's so I'm a single mum.
I can't do it. Well, you know, I've given up.
You have to give up. I've had to give up perfection
being and not that I ever was for perfection.
But I guess as a single mother of three kids and for a long
(29:43):
time now and their dad said completely, all three kids,
their dads are absent for various reasons.
There's only two of them. It sounded like there was 5
fathers. There's two fathers, 11 dead and
the other is an addict and dealing with his own problems.
So yeah, I think the emotions I feel the best I could do in my
(30:09):
motherhood was to love my kids and just keep growing as a
human. And I have, after going through
a period of really kind, doing my work and shutting out the
world, I've spent the last sevenyears opening up to the world
again and grieving a lot about what I feel as I open up to the
(30:32):
world. But I think having my girls
leaving home now, it's like it's, it's hard.
And we haven't prepared our schooling system.
I'm not even talking us as mothers.
Our schooling system hasn't prepared them for this.
At its core, we're asking our kids to have major discernment.
(30:54):
You know, they have to have the capacity to take in all of this
information and be able to discern what's true and what's
not, be able to not. They're not being given a path.
There's not a set path anymore. So they have to make, they have
to have so much self-awareness that they can make choices.
Plus they're suffering A moral injury that they've been given a
(31:16):
world that seems to them, whether this is the reality or
not, seems to them to many of them like it's not functional
and an environment which seems to have been, you know, you can
judge it anywhere but not be optimal.
Let's just say it that way. And so and we haven't educated
(31:38):
them for that. We've got an old style school of
school of system and then we have alternatives.
But often they're just literallylike the opposite of that and
still are not doing the preparation in a really good
way. And so I just as I was doing
this work and I was feeling the power of it, I felt the power of
(32:01):
the impact it was having. And I asked myself, well, I'm
what, what in this next phase ofmy life, what is the biggest
impact this work can have? And, and I really felt that the
biggest impact, and this is me coming up.
I made some really tough choices.
(32:22):
I was a mum by the age of 22 andit was really hard, made my life
very hard. I was doing drugs as a young
mother, you know, I'm not a drugaddict, but I was partying and
that was not a good decision that made life harder.
And I didn't, I know that those decisions I made at that time in
my life actually had long term impacts on my life.
(32:47):
And so if we can give, given ourkids a hard road to travel down,
we haven't prepared them for it.And also this is their setting
thinkers as they go through their, you know, as they leave
home and go through their 20s. And so Wayfinders is to help
with that. So it's first of all, the sort
(33:11):
of self knowledge and self efficacy.
Your ability to make choices is what this work teaches.
It also comes back to which I think is a driving force is of
purposefulness is how you are being called to serve your
community, which is very different to how are you being
(33:33):
how do I make money and how do Isurvive?
The question changes. And that's also like if you have
that question, that is definitely how you get purpose
and meaning in your life doesn'tno matter what religion or
spiritual orientation you have. And then, you know, being able
to also train adults as mentors in the skills to walk alongside
(33:58):
young adults, not tell them whatto do, not feel shameful about
what they have or have not giventhem, but be able to really
listen and receive the reciprocal energy of the energy
of youth and be able to be nourished by that.
And for that adult to be heard and respected for the questions
(34:21):
that they're asking and the guidance they're providing.
And so that's kind of like what I, I've done work with young
adults before, but then I saw them going back and there was no
support there or not enough. And it, you know, it's rare.
There's like a, there's like a severance.
There's something that happened that severed that ability to
have that. And I don't know if it's
(34:42):
communities or if the Internet really broke or dissolved this,
but there is this the deck you're talking about.
It's like the kids place to be able to be mentored by somebody.
The the elderly myself is inspired by our youth and they
have questions. So what can we impart on them?
That wisdom that flows both waysbecause there is something
(35:05):
around that creativity that the world through new set of eyes
that I think, you know, I enjoy experiencing and seeing and then
having them being open to hearing what we've experienced
is is that balance that we continue to weave.
Yeah. And then and then like being,
you know, I think I, I don't know about you, but I'm pretty
(35:26):
overwhelmed as a middle-aged woman.
And I think there are a lot of people who are pretty
overwhelmed. Yes.
Like that things up to be too easy.
Yeah, so, you know, and then, you know, and then we stick for
the Mcgrath's majority. We're ignoring a whole source of
wisdom, which is in the elderly.Yes.
(35:49):
You know, and giving it was fascinating.
Last season I called summer in summer I went, I was in Alaska
and I was doing a pilot in one of these programs.
The El the guy who was the olderguy who was telling stories and
really listening to the to both the adults and the kids that
were there. And but you know, and but
(36:11):
occasionally like coming in withsome cracker wisdom said at the
end, I feel like I finally come into my own.
I feel like the mistakes I've made and the pain I've gone
through in this environment, they now have a purpose.
And I cried. I was like, Oh my God.
And so much of this is so simpleand intrinsic.
(36:33):
Like how do you look after your environment?
WellCare about it. Learn how it teaches you once
you care about and you learn, Oh, shoot this.
The environment is a teacher. It's this valuable?
Reason. You're going to care for it.
You know, how do you come back to, you know, like, oh wow,
we've great, we've got AI AI nowlet's go back to healing and
(36:55):
being able to be in relationshipwith other humans because there
is so much generative ability there.
We're separated in these kind ofcontainers, so.
Yeah, these silos of craziness. Yeah.
So it's an extended program, hasa wilderness component.
We're designing it so we can scale it.
So we'll seed it. So we're seeding it next year in
Ventura County, in California, in Minnesota, in Alaska.
(37:19):
But it's where the whole idea ofthis is that I, I mean, I would
hope that the foundation doesn'tneed to be in business in, you
know, 10 years. I, I mean, I would hope that.
But the whole idea is that we seed this in communities around
the world. And actually once you seed it,
(37:39):
it has its own life because it is a natural way that we
interrelate. It's just something to kind of
break and remember who, you know, who we are and what's
important to us in community. And that's really and unlearn
some of the bad habits we pickedup.
So that's really kind of like what it is pretty simple.
(38:00):
And yeah, I'm, I, it's and it's blessed work.
I, I'm to be around. I just took a mother and son
out. Oh, the the son about to turn
21, first time he had been camping, took him out in the
wilderness. I was so scared.
I put the sound. I said you've been much more
(38:22):
dangerous in your house in New York City.
And then there is here in the woods, yeah.
This is true, but the joy on hisface when he just spent 4 hours
on his own following the river and like thinking about his life
and the joy, it was like everything his whole face
changed and he just texted me before this going.
Do you have a like list of camping equipment I can get from
(38:44):
you? Absolutely.
Here you go. He's like, I'm going to mark my
life every seven years, come outand do this reflection and work
out what I want and what I don'twant to take with me.
And and you know that's it's simple, but that's what it's
about. It is.
It's getting back to where you can clear your mind and they're,
you're so distracted by technology, by this ever racing
of television and computers and digital phones.
(39:07):
And as great as they have been, there's also the sense of
detaching from it and just getting really back into
yourself, asking yourself questions and listening again.
Yeah. And I think the main thing we're
also, I mean with the nonprofit,we are like we're taking
families out, but we're chargingfor that.
With the nonprofit, we're reallyfocusing on and as young adults
(39:30):
said to me the other day, this is everyone but focusing on, you
know, what it is to have a different relationship with your
trauma as well. So we're dealing a lot of a lot
of people with complex trauma and trauma and really going back
to a where we started, I guess circling back right to the
beginning, is that the place that you can really move through
(39:56):
in defining your gift of serviceis really through travelling
through the wounds you have accumulated.
That's where the wisdom is. I feel like the tension, and
I've just seen it so like that, changing the relationship with
the trauma to let it. In the very painful healing
journey of like seeing it, forgiving.
(40:19):
Yes. Part of that forgiveness, but
then coming through it and beingable to through that, have an
understanding that no one else does, how to use that to give
back, is really so central to this as well.
Yeah, we could be wrapping up the subjects.
I would feel we could go on and on and on.
But here's what I'm going to tell all of our listeners.
(40:40):
Miriam has given you some great tips and insight really around
how to get started, getting backto yourself again, taking that
time to understand who you are in your environment, whether
it's career, whether it's a soleentrepreneur, giving those first
tasks of even walking through your office space, the wandering
(41:01):
wander, the wandering wander, the wandering wander.
How does this O and then a the wandering wander and letting
yourself just experience or newly see the environments that
you're in do this at home, walk through your kitchen.
Most of the time we do not take in the actual space.
It's the mindfulness of it. And I know there are a lot of
(41:21):
groups and ways that you can connect with Miriam.
There is The Walking wild. There is the circle labs that
she has. There's the open circle.
There is, you know, the ways finders that's coming in.
So all these notes, all these ways to connect are going to be
down in the show notes. So whether you're listening on
your favorite podcast platform, you're following us on YouTube,
(41:45):
you're checking out our website,that information is there for
you so that you can connect to me.
Because this is a passion project for her.
You can hear it in her voice. You can feel it resonate.
If you've been watching us on video here on Spotify, you can
actually just feel that energy coming across from her.
This is something that is transforming lives, families,
(42:06):
communities, corporations. It has a social economical
impact beyond just you. And I invite you to really
connect with her, find out whereshe's at.
I know she's going to be doing some collaboration.
I know she's been reaching out to some incredible people.
So I invite you just to to get to know her, see if there's an
area that you can collaborate with her in and just take this
(42:29):
into your space because nature, environment, stepping out,
looking out can really change anything and everything around
us. So any last words of wisdom,
Miriam, before we wrap up? No, I just, I'm really grateful
for you. It's really, you know, so much
of this of, you know, the other side of listening is being able
(42:53):
to Share your story and being able to be seen for who you are.
And the gift of did she really say that is really like us as
women really like listening and seeing and acknowledging each
other's stories and that they all all have a place.
Everyone has a place and a unique gift.
And yeah, I just, I guess I really, I'm just starting off
(43:16):
this prop, this journey as a nonprofit, and I am calling in
patrons for this work. So I just want to just want to
say that loud and clear. I really want this work to scale
and grow. I believe it's needs to happen
quickly and soon. And so really calling in
patrons, and I'm saying that here in case anyone's listening,
(43:38):
but I'm also just claiming it. I'm claiming that good healing
work in the world. And that includes everyone here
listening. I'm claiming it in on behalf of
myself and everyone here, that good healing work in the world
is that it is not just like creeping up on surviving, but it
thrives and money flows stronglyas living water through all of
(44:03):
this work. And so I just want to, I like
it, she said it. She said it, she's claiming it.
She's like, this is who I am, this is what I'm creating.
This is my call to the world. This is who they're listening.
So if you're in here, you find that you can connect with her.
You've got you resonated with her.
I'm telling you, you just never know who you're going to meet
(44:25):
here on. Did she really say that?
So I want to thank all my listeners for listening and you
guys know the drill. If you love this conversation,
comment down below. Let Miriam know how awesome she
is. If you like this entire episode
that we've been putting together, give us a five star
rating. We definitely love that one.
I'm calling that out in the world too.
But most of all, thank you so much for spending your time with
us here today on this episode. And as a listener, I invite you
(44:48):
to stick around and come back and visit us on our next.
But that have a great day everyone.
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