October 26, 2022 • 39 mins
Let’s spook it up a little since it’s Halloween week! Christine Schiefer is here to talk about her podcast, ‘And That’s Why We Drink,’ and the book she co-wrote with her show co-host, Em Schulz; ’A Haunted Road Atlas: Sinister Stops, Dangerous Destinations, and True Crime Tales.’
From how she viewed true crime as a girl, to whether or not she believes in ghosts today, Christine kills the small talk and reveals what it’s like behind the scenes of her true crime meets paranormal podcast.
Check out her podcast and book via the links below!
https://www.amazon.com/Haunted-Road-Atlas-Dangerous-Destinations/dp/1524872105
https://www.andthatswhywedrink.com/
MORE ABOUT DIE-ALOGUE
If you like DIE-ALOGUE, here is how you can support the show:
Subscribe/follow on your podcast app - make sure you get new episodes downloaded!
Leave a five star rating and review on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen!
Rate on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/die-alogue-a-true-crime-conversation/id1470890320
Follow the show share it on Instagram and Twitter and tag @diealoguepresents
Become a DIE-HARD on Patreon and receive early, ad-free + bonus episodes! https://www.patreon.com/creator-home
DIE-ALOGUE is sponsored in part by She’s Birdie – the stylish and effective, personal safety alarms that I honestly don’t leave home without! You can get 10% off your Birdie purchase when you shop this link: https://www.shesbirdie.com/?rfsn=4885943.d5e5e8
Thank you for joining the conversation. You can always drop me a line via my website https://www.rebekahsebastian.com/discover/#contactvia
or via email: rebekah@yellowtapemedia.com
DIE-ALOGUE is part of the Crawlspace Network, and is hosted and edited by Rebekah Sebastian. Audio engineering and additional editing by Jason Usry. @jasonusryTheme song by OIivia Himes. @oliviaprimehimes
From how she viewed true crime as a girl, to whether or not she believes in ghosts today, Christine kills the small talk and reveals what it’s like behind the scenes of her true crime meets paranormal podcast.
Check out her podcast and book via the links below!
https://www.amazon.com/Haunted-Road-Atlas-Dangerous-Destinations/dp/1524872105
https://www.andthatswhywedrink.com/
MORE ABOUT DIE-ALOGUE
If you like DIE-ALOGUE, here is how you can support the show:
Subscribe/follow on your podcast app - make sure you get new episodes downloaded!
Leave a five star rating and review on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen!
Rate on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/die-alogue-a-true-crime-conversation/id1470890320
Follow the show share it on Instagram and Twitter and tag @diealoguepresents
Become a DIE-HARD on Patreon and receive early, ad-free + bonus episodes! https://www.patreon.com/creator-home
DIE-ALOGUE is sponsored in part by She’s Birdie – the stylish and effective, personal safety alarms that I honestly don’t leave home without! You can get 10% off your Birdie purchase when you shop this link: https://www.shesbirdie.com/?rfsn=4885943.d5e5e8
Thank you for joining the conversation. You can always drop me a line via my website https://www.rebekahsebastian.com/discover/#contactvia
or via email: rebekah@yellowtapemedia.com
DIE-ALOGUE is part of the Crawlspace Network, and is hosted and edited by Rebekah Sebastian. Audio engineering and additional editing by Jason Usry. @jasonusryTheme song by OIivia Himes. @oliviaprimehimes
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Stay tuned to the end of theepisode to hear a trailer for the new
crime thriller American Murderer, based onthe true story of Jason Derek Brown,
a charismatic con man turned party kingwho bankrolls his luxurious lifestyle through a series
of scams. American Murderers in theatersnow and streaming on Row eight and Voodoo
on October twenty eighth. Welcome toDialogue Podcast. I'm your host, Rebecca
(00:55):
Sebastian, and I'm thrilled to beback with you for another new episode.
We just concluded the short just twopart two episode series on Consent and I
learned so much, and I hopeyou did too. If you haven't heard
them, I would encourage you togo back and listen and share them widely.
Honestly, there was a lot ofnew information from both of those guests,
(01:18):
and it's a very relevant topic inthe true crime community and also of
course, in the world at large. Before we get into today's super fun
episode, I wanted to take amoment and ask you to stop what you're
doing right now, Just stop andleave Dialogue a review. I've learned something
(01:40):
about Dialogue podcast listeners and They're asmart but settle bunch, and a lot
of you reach out to me directlywith feedback about the show, which I
love. I so enjoy direct conversationsand communication with you. But if you
could take some of that energy andexcitement about the podcast and go leave it
(02:04):
on an Apple review, I wouldbe so grateful because I need more of
those. The show needs more ofthose. More listeners need to find Dialogue,
and I need your help doing it. So please, wherever you listen,
leave a review for Dialogue, andparticularly Apple and Spotify are the most
helpful, but truly, wherever youlisten, it's just so appreciated. Thank
(02:27):
you for allowing me to ask that. It never feels good or comfortable or
natural, but it needed to besaid. So it is Halloween week.
We are in a spooky season,as they say, and I thought it
would be fun to do a littlebit of a spooky themed interview. So
I am excited to welcome Christine Schaeferto the podcast today. She is one
(02:49):
half of the duo behind the hitTrue Crime and Paranormal podcast. And that's
why we drink, and as weget into and that's why we drink,
it's really an umbrella term that hasa sort of universal understanding, but you'll
hear in the conversation. M Christinealso wrote a book called Haunted Road Atlas
Sinister Stops, dangerous destinations, andtrue crime Tales. It's an interactive book
(03:15):
and it takes you to some ofthe host's favorite spooky and sinister sites throughout
the US. We're going to talkabout their podcast, We're going to talk
about the book. We're going totalk about ghosts. I didn't even plan
to do that, to be honest, but it had to be asked.
So we will get into whether ornot we believe in ghosts. So happy
(03:35):
spooky season, Happy Halloween, Christine, Thank you so much for killing the
small talk. Okay, well,Christine, welcome to Dialogue Podcast. Very
excited to meet you and have youhere. Yes, thank you. It's
such an honor and I'm just soenamored seeing my own book in your little
(04:00):
background there. Well, you know, I try. We're here to talk
about your amazing podcast. I'm anew listener, so throughout this interview you'll
just need to know that I'm goingto ask questions that a lot of your
biggest fans will know, So youknow, I'm going to hopefully introduce you
to new listeners. Yeah, someof it might feel like review to your
fans, but I want to getto know you and the podcast and the
(04:23):
story and the book you and yourco host am just published. And we're
going to get to the book.But before we do, I just want
to take the opportunity. When Ihave people here, I love to hear
like how did you get here?Like why are you spending all your time?
Like I am talking about true crimeand the paranormal and sinister things,
So when how did that begin foryou? You know, I feel it's
(04:46):
a lot of different paths that kindof I think converged, which I'm sure
is the same for anybody in oursituation doing a podcast for a living.
But when I was little, youknow, I was that kid that was
obsessed with Stephen King and Wuijabor andI had a book about like how to
Become Psychic for Kids, and ohwow, I was very into things that
(05:08):
you know, couldn't be explained.And then yeah, as I got older,
that translated into you know, unsolvedmysteries all that good stuff. And
then you know, I moved toLA to work as a TV writer and
as I was doing that, Mand I, my co host, started
you know, chit chatting and bonding, and then at night we realized we
were staying up till three sharing youknow, spooky stories, and we figured,
(05:30):
let's just put a microphone down andsee what happens, and low and
behold, here we are. Yeah, here you are, what four years
later or revive now I can't believeit, but yeah, it's been about
five years. So you were atthe real beginning of the I mean,
podcasting existed before that, but Iwould say people were still discovering podcasts for
(05:51):
sure, and the true crime genrein like terms of independent creators. You
were in that first wave. Yeah, we were really lucky on that front.
I don't think we'd ever didn't youknow, plan it that way.
But my favorite murder was really bigand so um and that was you know
where I went. I think alot of people went, oh, there's
others who like this stuff too,and so we took that as kind of
(06:12):
an inspiration. And then we listenedto a couple you know, ghostie podcasts
too, and we realized nobody hadat the time combined the two into one
podcast, and we thought, oh, that'd be fun to do, and
you know, now it's kind ofa booming genre, which is cool,
a very booming genre. So doyou remember the first case you paid attention
to? Like, were you drawnto true crime cases in the news and
(06:34):
on court TV and things like that? Mm, great point. Yeah,
you know, it's a weird combinationbecause I was also a very sensitive kid,
like overly sensitive, and so Ithink I avoided a lot of the
big stories from you know, thenineties and two thousands because I was like
a lot scared. Yeah, andso you know, and I think maybe
(06:54):
that's part of it, is thatI was scared, but also there was
this like sick fascination with like,you know, hearing about the stuff that
scares me. But yeah, youknow, I don't think I ever really
got into the weeds on any casesuntil I was older and like got to
do it quote unquote for a living, and so it took a while for
me to really you know, getand then once I did, I went,
(07:15):
you know, off the wall.It was like the Black Dahlia was
one of the first ones I gotreally invested in. And sure you were
a lot Yeah, well that makessense that you were intrigued, but scared
because you were the kid reading Howto Be a Psychic? So you were
like, I am drawn to this, but how can I you know,
be stronger and be braver and likethat that makes sense that you didn't want
(07:36):
to hear like about the bad details. You're like, maybe I can empower
myself. Yeah. Yeah, that'sa great way to put it. You
know, I think that's that's agreat way to put it. I was
like scared but also fascinated, butalso wanted to understand. Yeah, regained
some control somehows exactly? Not toput words in your mouth, just wondering.
No, I love when people putwords in my mouth because they were
usually so much smarter than my ownwords. So talk about the podcast format,
(08:01):
So is this the ghost the paranormalmeets true crime? And I'm always
curious for people have been doing itas long as you have. Surely the
show has changed and evolved over time. So you can talk about like the
journey with you and m starting it, Yeah, what the original vision was
and how much of that still holds, and then like what has changed.
Oh that's a great question, becauseI think this actually is one that people
(08:22):
probably don't necessarily know. Um.Yeah, because when we first you know,
conceived of this idea of a truecrime paranormal show, we had come
up with the name and that's whywe drink, and we kind of tried
to roll that into a concept oflike, oh, all the things that
make us drink, and so earlyon we had like a blueprint, so
(08:45):
that was going to be much morestructured as far as you know, we
start the show and say, uh, we still do this, We still
say why why do we drink thisweek? And it's you know, either
something inane like um, I haveto go to the eye doctor or something
you know, more dramatic. Atthe beginning, we had much more structure
planned as far as we were gonnado like why do our parents drink this
(09:05):
week? Like what did we dothis week? Too? And we were
in our twenties in LA and wewere like, what did we do this
week to you know, make ourparents drink? Oh, we started a
podcast. I'm sure they're you knowimbibing at the mere thought. And so
we had all these kind of structuresand they never really panned out. So
it's what's stuck is, you know, why do we drink this week?
(09:26):
And I am often drinking booze notoften, well pretty often, but M
it doesn't drink, so M alwaysis kind of the other side of that.
So milkshakes or tea or whatever,and you know, why do we
drink this week? And then hM tells a ghost story and I've never
heard it before. I don't knowwhat M has brought to the table,
so it's kind of a surprise.And then vice versa where I'll bring a
(09:50):
true crime story that M has neverheard of. So it's kind of a
fun little everyone gets to listen andlearn along with us. And I really
like that the drinking in fludes aperson who doesn't drink alcohol, because always,
really honest, I don't. I'myou're sober, so oh great,
congrats, thank you. So whenI hear that it includes like in the
book one of your features is likewhere you get your where you find your
(10:13):
wine and you're drinking, where shefinds her milkshake, and every place you
travel. And I like that inclusionbecause it is easy to feel left out
of drinking games. I'm not gonnalie. Oh yeah, And you know
it's so funny because M is likethe king of drinking games and like loves
loves to be, you know,more so than most people who play them.
And so you know, on toureven well m M makes the rules
(10:35):
for the drinking game for everybody,um, and we do have quite quite
a few listeners who don't drink orso I don't know, And so it
has always felt inclusive in that waythat like, you know, and especially
and then when I was pregnant,I got to join everybody else on this
right on the milkshake side. Yeah, So you know, we try to
make it as lucy goosey as possible, and we've found that people relate to
(10:58):
the phrase and if they don't drinkthemselves absolutely, like we know exactly what
you mean when someone says and that'swhy we drink, Like this is why
we drink. And it's collective understandingexactly, And there is just so much
that falls that's true. I don'tthink we realized at the time, like
how inclusive that umbrella phrase would befor everything under the sun that's happened in
(11:20):
the last five years, right,I mean, you were on the precipice
of massive world changes, Like,oh gosh, I have no idea,
it's so crazy. So let's talkabout a haunted road Outlast, which launched
in the spring. But talk aboutmore specifically the format of the book,
and then I want to hear kindof how the idea brewed between you and
M, like when it made senselike, oh, yeah, this is
(11:41):
a book. Yeah, yeah,we had always wanted to write a book,
and you know, Am, notoriouslyon the show, is not a
reader. And so the fact thatI convinced them to actually write a book,
I feel pretty proud of that becauseM was like, I don't even
read books, so I don't know. I was the last person I would
ever have thought to write one.But when we kind of felt like there
(12:03):
was something there, we started brainstormingand sketching out, and I think it
was pretty quick that the idea oflike a travel guide came up because the
way input it was, I'm I'monly writing the kind of book that I
would read or that I would beinterested in. So they didn't want it
to be you know, very wordyand long and no pictures, so like,
(12:24):
you know, there had to bedrawings, there had to be fun
facts, there had to be hadto be broken up into like little easy
to digest pieces, and yeah,M's favorite series is like Atlas obscura,
anything else obscura, and so thatwas an inspiration and so we kind of
cobbled together this, Like it feelssort of like the podcast has kind of
(12:45):
thrown up a book, like justall the things that you know, every
time we've toured in a city,we will take note of our favorite bars,
ice cream shops, oddity stores,like weird stuff that you wouldn't necessarily
find in your average travel guide.And so that's kind of the idea.
And originally we had wanted to put, you know, every city in America,
and then our publisher was like,this is going to be a six
(13:07):
thousand page book, and we said, never mind, So we had to
cut back a bit. But yeah, that's the idea, and you cover
a lot of states. How manyof them like thirty yeah, I think
there's thirty two cities, so someties. But yeah, we're pretty proud
of it. It was a workof love. So a lot of other
people are enjoying it. I meanthat's what I've heard from every author who's
(13:28):
published a book. And also Ithink m's the right idea, like why
write any other kind of book thanone that you would read? Like,
you know, it was a verywise statement. I absolutely agree with that.
I think that's how any artists shouldapproach anything they make. What's amazing
about the book, too, isthat it's kind of on the heels of
your tour, which lots of peoplepodcast not every podcast goes on tours,
(13:50):
like it's maybe a little more commonnow, and you know, but that's
a big deal that you can travelto different cities and big groups of people
will come and want to watch you. It's wild. We still don't clearly
get it. Yeah, like that, Like, so twenty did we say
twenty seventeen you started? So whendid the first tour kick on? You
(14:11):
know, I think it was twentyeighteen. Yeah, so yeah, I
don't know. We started February oftwenty seventeen, so it was probably about
a year and a half before wehad even had the notion in our minds
that that would be possible. Andof course the first live shows were you
know what, We actually did alive show at crime Con that was in
(14:31):
Nashville, Tennessee. But so wedid our first show there and it was
sort of a like a practice runand the room was packed and we were
like, oh my gosh, youknow, people came out to watch this,
and so we were. That's whenit kind of became more of a
reality. Yeah, and we hadgotten an email from a touring agent at
(14:52):
WMME and he said like, hey, we I'd love to just do some
practice shows if you guys are interested. And I thought it was spam,
and so I kept putting in thisbend filter because I was like, nobody's
gonna be sending is this That's ridiculous. I like cold emailing us. And
now I tell other podcasters like,hey, if you hear out like you
know, a lot of times asopportunities, they just find you, you
know online or they're you know,cropsourcing asking people to podcast wrecks and they'll
(15:16):
find you, So don't delete thoseemails. That's amazing. Yeah, so
he said, you know, sowe tried some local shows. I mean,
we were both in LA at thetime, so we did a couple
local shows at Hollywood Improv and yeah, they went really well. And so
over time he started putting together reallife tours and in twenty nineteen we did
(15:37):
our first one and it was kindof a wreck. I mean, it
went really well and it was asuccess in the standard sense, but also
we I think went to like fortyfive cities in like a three month period
and really wore ourselves. Since soall of that travel you did, that's
informing a lot of the book,right, Yeah, that's actually you know
what, You're right? That wasthat was maybe it was worth it for
(15:58):
that. I mean, really,it gave you a ton to work with.
So when when you made you know, lemonade out of lemons or something,
it really feels and reads like alove letter to your fans, Like
did you feel like you were talkingto your listeners? Oh? Absolutely,
Yeah. I love the phrase loveletter to it because I honestly feel a
(16:21):
lot of the time that I justwant to express That's kind of what our
show is. It's become because emand I didn't we weren't even like good
friends when we started the show.We had just kind of met, and
so I sort of feel like allour listeners kind of grew with us,
you know, as cheesy as thatsounds. And so yeah, the podcast,
the book almost feels like the podcastin written form, Like we're just
(16:41):
talking to people and letting them know, like well, our favorite parts of
their cities or you know, suggestions, and we love what Like I think
one of my favorite moments is whenpeople take a photo at one of the
places we've suggested and they tack usin it on Instagram and we're like,
yeah, oh, we loved itthere too. You know. It's it's
just a cool way to connect withpeople. It really is. And of
(17:03):
course I'm sure I did what alot of readers do, or what readers
will do when they get the bookis they kind of tear it and look
at all the cities and see ifthere's is in it or a place they've
been is in it. And Iwent right to New York and I was
like, where did they say?Where did they go? And I was
like, yep, yes, yes, oh good. And then you mention
the Nexium case, because I thinkin New York maybe you did the story
(17:26):
of Nexium. Yes, And Iwas kind of hoping we could just spend
a little time on it because absolutelyalways okay good. I was like,
I feel like Christine's going to beup for a quick Nexium chat because love
a little Nexium sidebar. Yeah,And it's been too long for me,
frankly, like they were so inthe news everywhere. I was talking about
them all the time. I washaving cult experts on all the time and
then oh, man kind of wentaway and I miss it. So I
(17:48):
know it was the time when myeven my husband was like really into it
and he's not, you know,in the true crime space. But we
watched the docuseries and he was askingme questions and I feel like, oh,
yeah, well did you know this, this, that and the other.
And I got to watch him seeeverything for the first time in a
docuseries. That was a very excitingtime. We had a parallel experience.
(18:08):
My husband definitely came in for thevow and the Nexium's story. Um,
he doesn't usually partake in the timesame thing. He's like, you know
more about Nexium than any woman nota Nexium should know. He was like,
I'm concerned, and I was like, listen, Like that's a compliment.
(18:29):
Yeah, I thought so. Andalso it's best to be aware because
I couldn't call him prey to KeithRanieri in a in a different time of
my life and those kneepads, man, you know, I mean you do
so not in the middle of thenight, but yeah, so how did
you discover the Nextium story? Andlike, what is your what is your
take on it? Because there's somany aspects to this story. Right,
(18:53):
We've got like women as victims,but are they also perpetrators? You've got
a cult leader. But it's somodern. It's you know, you think
of cults sometimes as like from along time ago, like jonestown tight yeah,
cut off from technology, yes,yeah. And I find it really
fascinating these more modern, like we'resaying modern cults because like the fact that
(19:17):
the people who run them, inthis case Keith Ranieri, who are the
kind of like narcissistic head of thiswhole hit show, I guess yeah,
they kind of put themselves in abad position ultimately, because like he wanted
everyone to film what he was doing, and then now we have all this
footage and rookie mistakes. It's like, well, what are you thinking?
(19:38):
But I just like the elements oftechnology in some of like especially in Nexium,
and you know, I remember theywere having to text each other like
everything they ate and had to getpermission, you know, to do all
these things, and it was viatext, And it honestly adds to me
like a more sinister level of likebeing controlled, because you can't just go
(20:02):
home and be you know, byyourself you're you're still being controlled via your
cell phone, and so a lotof it I think is fascinating to me
because of that element that like youdon't see with Manson or Jonestown or what
Heaven's Gate, you know. Yeah, the connection was like constant, constant,
(20:26):
yeah, yeah, And I justfound that it's so scary that I
guess I just struggled so much withthe women that I believed were victims becoming
perpetrators themselves. Like I was reallylike torn up about that how to feel
about it, like what should theirrightful punishment be? And it like brings
up that whole element of like thecycle of abuse, like oh, you
(20:49):
know you're you've been treated this way, and so you know the natural extension
of that is you treat other peoplethat way. But then where does the
responsibility lie exactly. Oh It's sucha scary gray area, it really is.
And I found it endlessly interesting towhere. I did attend to Alison
Max's sentencing because it was happening inNew York and it was open to the
(21:10):
public, so I went and Ijust it was so surreal. I mean,
I sat a few rows behind her, the handed down her sentence.
I know, I like cleared mycalendar for that, so like, this
is not normal, but whatever,I just I was invested at that point.
I was like, but she's likethe prime example of that, you
know. I think Nancy Salzman wasmuch more of a leader and an instigator
(21:30):
in it from the get But Ithink someone like Alison Mack just really she
really is a victim, but shealso, I believe, does need some
time to think about what she didto others. Yeah, but it's I
believe in redemption for everybody in thatstory except cuth Raineery. I mean that's
what I basically feeling. So farfar away, I can totally get on
(21:52):
board with that, Like, yeah, there was a lot, you know,
and I know that the term breakwhat do you call it, brainwashing
has been you know, is kindof controversial, but just the element of
like clearly people were fully absorbing thisbelief system and thinking like, oh,
you know, what they were doingwas the right thing to be doing.
And so you know, at acertain point you're like, well, like
(22:15):
where does the where does the intentionalitystart and where does the responsibility start?
And it's it's a lot of bigquestions came out of that whole case big.
And one thing that I remember learningfrom one of the experts I had
on who was featured actually in theVow and in the Seduced one with India
(22:37):
Oxenbourg. She was saying, likewhat you were saying that brainwashed is kind
of a controversial term. We don'treally use it as much anymore. And
she puts forth a new word calledbounded choice. So I know, really
hostile, right, because they didhave a choice. Nobody was well that
one girl. Nobody was locked ina room. There was one. Everyone
else could leave, but they werebound by these control methods that were deployed
(23:02):
like way before things got so dark. So it was so gradual, it
was a slow burn. Then allof a sudden they feel very very very
stuck. Yes, so it reallyShe tries to help people understand this idea
of brainwashing in a different from adifferent perspective, that like, there is
free will, but it's very hardto exercise that when those tactics have been
(23:22):
deployed on you for a period oftime. That is such a fascinating way
to look at it, and notto just like completely throw a different case
in here. But I remember whenI was researching the Elizabeth Smart case for
the book. I remember her readingthat her mom was saying, like,
we really don't like to say shewas brainwashed, and that was one of
the big running story. Actually,you know what you asked me earlier,
(23:45):
what was one of the earliest casesI got into. I think the Elizabeth
Smart case. I was probably inlike fifth grade, sixth grade. I
remember just being like following that fromday one, you know, all the
way through. And so I rememberreading, you know, a couple of
years ago that her mom was saying, we don't like to use that term,
but that was one of the bigthrough lines of of course, like
the media store is story on this, and I remember thinking, like,
(24:08):
man, I wish there was abetter way to describe that feeling of feeling
trapped, but also you know,yeah, feeling like you don't have a
choice, but it's not necessarily like, oh, your brain has been completely
wiped, you know, by somebodyelse, right exactly. And also there's
without understanding it, there is atendency to blame the yes people in those
(24:30):
situations. People go, why didn'tshe just run? Why didn't she just
leave? Like, you know,especially in the next game case, I
mean Elizabeth smarts. It was abit more understanding why she didn't. She
was a young child in like aterribly abusive situation where she was captive,
although people still said it to her. Yeah when she had that moment,
when she was out in public,right, like they would take her to
(24:52):
parties and stuff. Yeah, exactly. But the next thing, they're like,
why didn't they just leave? Andit's just not that simple. Oh,
So till people understand that kind ofnuance, it's it's I don't really
yeah, I don't care for thewhy didn't they just leave? Yes,
Oh it's a bad it's not agood it's not a good. Look.
Yeah. I think one of thethings that next seam also showed, at
least to me, is like thiscan happen to anybody. Like there,
(25:15):
you know, there are so manyparts of it in the beginning where you're
kind of like, oh, Icould see why somebody would say that's an
interesting concept, and I want tobetter myself and I want to learn and
make connections with people, so like, you know, you can see how
these things kind of become insidious andcan trap people. It's not just you
know, quote unquote vulnerable, weakpeople that get sucked into these kind of
(25:37):
positions. I think that's probably themost important thing that came out of Yeah,
all the next seam content is thatit shows how universal and how susceptible
so many of us are. AndI think anyone unwilling to admit that they
could be vulnerable to that isn't alittle bit of denial it because there's a
cult for everyone. It might nothave been Next Sea, it's a cult
for everyone. Yeah, but like, yeah, so true. They prey
(26:00):
on your interest and the good thingin you and they exploit it. Right.
So for Haaven's Gate it was likean interest in other galaxies in UFOs,
and for Next Time it was selfimprovement and changing the world. Like,
none of those are bad things,and there are things a niche of
people gravitate towards. Absolutely, that'syeah, that's a great There's a cull
for everyone, so, you knoweveryone. I like that. I live
(26:23):
my life with that understanding. Everywherewe need to make T shirts. Yeah
I would wear that. So ofall the places you traveled, I want
to know, like what city ismost memorable or in what city did you
have a most memorable experience on tour? You know, I think I gotta
say New Orleans. It's just oneof those towns, especially for people into
(26:47):
the spooky stuff that it just hasmy heart, you know, And I
actually had never been before before touringthere. It's just such a cool,
beautiful, unique, beautiful historic city. And you know, Marty grab partying
aside, there's so much history,and so much history is really the only
(27:08):
work he can come up with.But it like bleeds into everything. So
as far as you know, allthe ghost hunts you go on, it's
not just like, oh, there'sghosts here, it's like, well,
you know, this was an orphanagein a hospital, and the French and
the span, I mean, thekind of stuff that we learned just going
on. You know, your averageghost hunt was like mind boggling. And
you know, I think while wewere there, Um m likes to travel
(27:33):
in a very unique way. Andthis might be why the book worked well
too, because Mum is a verylike you know, and wants to squeeze
in every possible activity and touristy thinginto a day. And I'm more like
I want to sleep in a nicehotel bed and like slowly meander to breakfast.
It's just very like there are twotypes of travelers, and both of
(27:56):
them represent both yea yes, Andyou know, I think the way the
reason it works because we're both comfortableletting the other person go do their thing
and we're comfortable doing it ourselves.But our producer Evo was with us on
that one hit that show, andshe also tour manages for us. While
we're touring, and she and Iwe're at brunch and we just thought,
like, I don't know where itcame from, but we said, should
(28:18):
we get tattoos? And we justwandered down the road and got tattoos.
And it wasn't like, oh adrunken decision, like we were just you
know, in New Orleans and wefelt like I had the time, had
the time, had the place.So we kind of brainstormed over breakfast and
when got little tattoos and now wehave kind of, um, just little
mementos from being there, and it'sjust one of those cities where it was
(28:40):
both such a neat and cool citybut also you know, we did some
really fun and interesting stuff and yeah, yeah, or they were not that
would be fun because I we shouldget matching one. Yeah, it would
be culty and kind of cute,very cool. I like that you each
had your own vision and that's abig decision to make spontaneously. That's yes.
(29:02):
And it was only my second tattoo, so it wasn't like, oh,
you know, just ad it was. It was very just I don't
know. It's one of those wherewe said this will be memorables, right,
yeah, all right, very verycool. Okay, Now I want
to know where have you not traveledin the United States? Yeah? You
know what, I can't even thinkof a place. This is so silly
(29:22):
of a place. Well, I'dlove to go to, um, you
know some some of these spooky aliensites, like in Nevada. So where
like where that seems right up youralley? I would love that. So
I wasn't planning of asking you this, and I don't know that I've ever
asked to guess this before, butit feels right. Um do you believe?
Are you just interested? Or doyou believe in ghosts? And more?
(29:48):
Um? What is the word foraliens? Extraterrestrials? Yes, aliens
felt wrong? Aliens works too?Yes, you know I do, and
I I will say m is definitelyI'm the more skeptical person on a team.
Of two people who are not allthat skeptical. So, like the
(30:08):
bar is very low because EM believesliterally anything and everything, and like EM
will see my cat knock something offthe table and be like it was a
ghost, and I'm like, Isee my cat doing it. But anyway,
so there's a little bit of adifference there in skepticism. But you
know, I've had a few experiences, and weirdly enough, I have.
(30:29):
I hadn't had any, you know, ghostly experiences really until we started the
podcast, and then I've had Ithink two or three things happened that I
just thoroughly can't explain. And um, it's sort of added an element of
like, Okay, so you knowthis isn't just like a whimsical conversation.
I really do believe that some ofthis stuff, not all of it,
(30:52):
but you know, some of itis very real. And then as far
as aliens extraterrestrials, I also believeit, but I'm very scared of them.
So okay, I'm like, Ibelieve in them, but I'm like,
but leave me alone, please,I don't I don't want to prove
it. So can you tell meif the ghost encounters were like friendly or
(31:12):
were they scary? One was veryscary. I was in Its happened a
few weeks ago. Actually it wasvery recent. Um I was in Knoxville,
Tennessee, just driving through. UmMy husband and I took the baby
down to meet some like relatives thatwe were. We stopped in Knoxville and
we'd never been and we stayed inthis like pretty brand new just like a
(31:33):
I don't know, holiday and somesort of just hotel brit Chane hotel downtown,
but in this beautiful like arts district, theater district and beautiful old buildings.
And that night, oh gosh,it was probably it was, of
course, like three thirty in themorning. And I suddenly woke up and
the babies in the pack and play, and I hear um one of her
(31:56):
toys, which is on the counteracross the room, just talking away and
it's saying, let's play. AndI'm like, okay, cool, good
start nightmares stuff of nightmares. AndI like wake up, and I look
around and there is who I thinkhe's my husband, sitting on the edge
of the bed just staring at me. But then I go, oh,
my, you know, Blaze doesn'twear white tank tops like undershirts to bed,
(32:21):
like, who who is that?So I went blaze and then as
it was so trippy, it wassort of like that dissolve effect on power
Point where it just kind of likedissolved into particles, and I was just
like, I don't think so,I don't love this. Um just a
just a dude sitting at the edgeof the bed staring at me, very
unsettling, and you know, youhear these stories and it's like, oh,
(32:45):
maybe they were dreaming whatever, andit's this happened, and I went,
Okay, whatever that was, itwasn't a dream. I was very
much awake and her toy was goingoff across the room and I think I
cued it up. It's like,yeah, it's almost like it woke me
up to like see it. Idon't know. It was really unst see
(33:06):
their face and can you still seetheir face or was it more like it
was I think I would be fillingin the blanks a little bit if I
tried to describe it, but itwas I definitely see their body shape.
It was like a kind of awiry old man essentially in like a white
tank top and just kind of staringat me at the foot of the bed.
(33:27):
And then this part was weird tojust kind of like a strange footnote
is that I found I kind ofwoke up and had to you know,
I just got up to like geta glass of water or something, and
I realized I was like laying ontop of the sheets that were like tucked
into the hotel bed like really tightly. And I had at hotels I like
to like slide under and be likesnuggled in, but I had somehow been
(33:52):
like moved from underneath the covers toon top of them. And it was
a very strange moment of like,what the how did this happen? I
don't know the whole thing question,Yes exactly, that's the way to put
it. So it doesn't prove everything, but it was very uncomfy. Yeah,
it sounds uncomfory. Yeah, Ialways wonder it's like to ghost only
(34:15):
visit people who believe in them,you know, like or I guess if
you don't, and then you seeyou when you become a believer. Yeah,
I know, but it's hard tosay. And I feel like a
lot of people have that saying oflike, oh I don't believe in any
of that, but one time thisweird thing did happen. So, you
know, I think that's so true. It has a little bit of I
think at least most people will havea little bit of a curiosity about it,
(34:38):
and they leave room for the possibilities. Yeah, I'm definitely not going
to tell someone definitively um yeah,but I probably would say I'm more on
the skeptic side, but super curiousto hear other people who aren't, Like,
it's still yeah, that's kind ofyeah. I think that's a great
place to be. Yeah. Yeah, it feels like it until until toy
(34:58):
spontaneously starts. Yeah, you don'trecommend that. I've stopped. We stopped
traveling with those. I was like, I don't want those in hotel rooms
anymore. It was so sinister.It's like, let's yea, you know,
there should not be a toy thatdoes that. No, that's true
too. I like in the daylight, I was like, who invented this
thing? Terrible? A true crimeperson, probably morbid. Well, this
(35:22):
was a blast, and your bookis a blast, and your podcast is
a blast, and I'm thrilled wefinally connected. But I do have a
closing question, which is a realgear switch. Yes, yes, I
saw this. I think you hadsent in some brainstorming questions. Stay with
me. At the close of everyinterview, you know, by season,
I ask like the same question toevery guest, And right now we're talking
(35:44):
about justice, So I want toknow in your own words, there's no
right or wrong, But how doyou define justice? Yeah, I feel
like maybe I've just gotten jaded overtime. But I think at least for
me in the context at least ofbeing a victim, I think justice is
almost a feeling that you're being seen, maybe for what you've gone through,
(36:08):
if that makes any sort of sense. So like that feeling of, you
know, justice doesn't necessarily fix,you know, what happened, or actually
never really does fix what happened,but maybe there's an element of like,
Okay, you know, I'm I'mbeing seen for what happened, for what
I've gone through, for um,what I've been put through. So that's
(36:28):
that's about as far as I cankind of stretch it in my own terms.
I like that a lot, andI think that is a really beautiful
answer. So I think, oh, my goodness, well, thank you.
I love everyone's different answers and thatthey're all true. Yes, so
question you know, exciting about it. So, Christine, thank you so
much for killing the small talk today. This has been such an honor.
(36:51):
I am really really had a blast, and you asked some great questions.
Man, I mean so some ofthese I've never been asked before. So
thank you for an awesome interview.Well, thanks for being up for it.
You're welcome back anytime and maybe withm yes, that'll be fine.
Dialogue is a yellowtape media production audioengineered by Jason Ussrie and produced, posted,
(37:14):
and edited by me Rebecca Sebastian.If you love the podcast, please
consider becoming a diehard by signing upat Patreon dot com slash Dialogue. Other
ways to support the show follow alongon social media. We are at Dialogue
pod across platforms, and you cannow watch most episodes on YouTube by subscribing
to my channel Rebecca Sebastian. Formore information or to drop me a note,
(37:36):
visit Rebecca Sebastian dot com. Untilnext time, thank you for listening
and killing the small talk. Thisis our prime suspect, Jason Derek Brown.
(37:57):
Tough to say where you might beheaded at this point? I love
you. You should see what kindof trail. This guy leaves us pretty
soon, just not the Jason.I know he's a con man, Melanie,
plain and simple. I need tospeak with Jason. My brother is
dead in Quadruple. Now. Iknow you know Jason, and I know
(38:19):
he's been here recently. Yeah,a little opportunity eighty grand three days.
I'm gonna rob an armored TRUV andI want you to help me. That's
a lovely pig. He's dead Andno, Mommy, you're never gonna find
(38:40):
him. Sure about that. I'msure you'll figure something out. Is there
any part of that brain of yours? They could just tell you to stop
bits. He won't get away withus. H one man, Okay,
(39:04):
it's a loaded gun. Tell mewhere is your brother? And do not
lie to me? Did you tellit? I always tell you the truth.
Do you know that? Dadly?Go ahead, sir
Stay tuned to the end of theepisode to hear a trailer for the new
crime thriller American Murderer, based onthe true story of Jason Derek Brown,
a charismatic con man turned party kingwho bankrolls his luxurious lifestyle through a series
of scams. American Murderers in theatersnow and streaming on Row eight and Voodoo
on October twenty eighth. Welcome toDialogue Podcast. I'm your host, Rebecca
(00:55):
Sebastian, and I'm thrilled to beback with you for another new episode.
We just concluded the short just twopart two episode series on Consent and I
learned so much, and I hopeyou did too. If you haven't heard
them, I would encourage you togo back and listen and share them widely.
Honestly, there was a lot ofnew information from both of those guests,
(01:18):
and it's a very relevant topic inthe true crime community and also of
course, in the world at large. Before we get into today's super fun
episode, I wanted to take amoment and ask you to stop what you're
doing right now, Just stop andleave Dialogue a review. I've learned something
(01:40):
about Dialogue podcast listeners and They're asmart but settle bunch, and a lot
of you reach out to me directlywith feedback about the show, which I
love. I so enjoy direct conversationsand communication with you. But if you
could take some of that energy andexcitement about the podcast and go leave it
(02:04):
on an Apple review, I wouldbe so grateful because I need more of
those. The show needs more ofthose. More listeners need to find Dialogue,
and I need your help doing it. So please, wherever you listen,
leave a review for Dialogue, andparticularly Apple and Spotify are the most
helpful, but truly, wherever youlisten, it's just so appreciated. Thank
(02:27):
you for allowing me to ask that. It never feels good or comfortable or
natural, but it needed to besaid. So it is Halloween week.
We are in a spooky season,as they say, and I thought it
would be fun to do a littlebit of a spooky themed interview. So
I am excited to welcome Christine Schaeferto the podcast today. She is one
(02:49):
half of the duo behind the hitTrue Crime and Paranormal podcast. And that's
why we drink, and as weget into and that's why we drink,
it's really an umbrella term that hasa sort of universal understanding, but you'll
hear in the conversation. M Christinealso wrote a book called Haunted Road Atlas
Sinister Stops, dangerous destinations, andtrue crime Tales. It's an interactive book
(03:15):
and it takes you to some ofthe host's favorite spooky and sinister sites throughout
the US. We're going to talkabout their podcast, We're going to talk
about the book. We're going totalk about ghosts. I didn't even plan
to do that, to be honest, but it had to be asked.
So we will get into whether ornot we believe in ghosts. So happy
(03:35):
spooky season, Happy Halloween, Christine, Thank you so much for killing the
small talk. Okay, well,Christine, welcome to Dialogue Podcast. Very
excited to meet you and have youhere. Yes, thank you. It's
such an honor and I'm just soenamored seeing my own book in your little
(04:00):
background there. Well, you know, I try. We're here to talk
about your amazing podcast. I'm anew listener, so throughout this interview you'll
just need to know that I'm goingto ask questions that a lot of your
biggest fans will know, So youknow, I'm going to hopefully introduce you
to new listeners. Yeah, someof it might feel like review to your
fans, but I want to getto know you and the podcast and the
(04:23):
story and the book you and yourco host am just published. And we're
going to get to the book.But before we do, I just want
to take the opportunity. When Ihave people here, I love to hear
like how did you get here?Like why are you spending all your time?
Like I am talking about true crimeand the paranormal and sinister things,
So when how did that begin foryou? You know, I feel it's
(04:46):
a lot of different paths that kindof I think converged, which I'm sure
is the same for anybody in oursituation doing a podcast for a living.
But when I was little, youknow, I was that kid that was
obsessed with Stephen King and Wuijabor andI had a book about like how to
Become Psychic for Kids, and ohwow, I was very into things that
(05:08):
you know, couldn't be explained.And then yeah, as I got older,
that translated into you know, unsolvedmysteries all that good stuff. And
then you know, I moved toLA to work as a TV writer and
as I was doing that, Mand I, my co host, started
you know, chit chatting and bonding, and then at night we realized we
were staying up till three sharing youknow, spooky stories, and we figured,
(05:30):
let's just put a microphone down andsee what happens, and low and
behold, here we are. Yeah, here you are, what four years
later or revive now I can't believeit, but yeah, it's been about
five years. So you were atthe real beginning of the I mean,
podcasting existed before that, but Iwould say people were still discovering podcasts for
(05:51):
sure, and the true crime genrein like terms of independent creators. You
were in that first wave. Yeah, we were really lucky on that front.
I don't think we'd ever didn't youknow, plan it that way.
But my favorite murder was really bigand so um and that was you know
where I went. I think alot of people went, oh, there's
others who like this stuff too,and so we took that as kind of
(06:12):
an inspiration. And then we listenedto a couple you know, ghostie podcasts
too, and we realized nobody hadat the time combined the two into one
podcast, and we thought, oh, that'd be fun to do, and
you know, now it's kind ofa booming genre, which is cool,
a very booming genre. So doyou remember the first case you paid attention
to? Like, were you drawnto true crime cases in the news and
(06:34):
on court TV and things like that? Mm, great point. Yeah,
you know, it's a weird combinationbecause I was also a very sensitive kid,
like overly sensitive, and so Ithink I avoided a lot of the
big stories from you know, thenineties and two thousands because I was like
a lot scared. Yeah, andso you know, and I think maybe
(06:54):
that's part of it, is thatI was scared, but also there was
this like sick fascination with like,you know, hearing about the stuff that
scares me. But yeah, youknow, I don't think I ever really
got into the weeds on any casesuntil I was older and like got to
do it quote unquote for a living, and so it took a while for
me to really you know, getand then once I did, I went,
(07:15):
you know, off the wall.It was like the Black Dahlia was
one of the first ones I gotreally invested in. And sure you were
a lot Yeah, well that makessense that you were intrigued, but scared
because you were the kid reading Howto Be a Psychic? So you were
like, I am drawn to this, but how can I you know,
be stronger and be braver and likethat that makes sense that you didn't want
(07:36):
to hear like about the bad details. You're like, maybe I can empower
myself. Yeah. Yeah, that'sa great way to put it. You
know, I think that's that's agreat way to put it. I was
like scared but also fascinated, butalso wanted to understand. Yeah, regained
some control somehows exactly? Not toput words in your mouth, just wondering.
No, I love when people putwords in my mouth because they were
usually so much smarter than my ownwords. So talk about the podcast format,
(08:01):
So is this the ghost the paranormalmeets true crime? And I'm always
curious for people have been doing itas long as you have. Surely the
show has changed and evolved over time. So you can talk about like the
journey with you and m starting it, Yeah, what the original vision was
and how much of that still holds, and then like what has changed.
Oh that's a great question, becauseI think this actually is one that people
(08:22):
probably don't necessarily know. Um.Yeah, because when we first you know,
conceived of this idea of a truecrime paranormal show, we had come
up with the name and that's whywe drink, and we kind of tried
to roll that into a concept oflike, oh, all the things that
make us drink, and so earlyon we had like a blueprint, so
(08:45):
that was going to be much morestructured as far as you know, we
start the show and say, uh, we still do this, We still
say why why do we drink thisweek? And it's you know, either
something inane like um, I haveto go to the eye doctor or something
you know, more dramatic. Atthe beginning, we had much more structure
planned as far as we were gonnado like why do our parents drink this
(09:05):
week? Like what did we dothis week? Too? And we were
in our twenties in LA and wewere like, what did we do this
week to you know, make ourparents drink? Oh, we started a
podcast. I'm sure they're you knowimbibing at the mere thought. And so
we had all these kind of structuresand they never really panned out. So
it's what's stuck is, you know, why do we drink this week?
(09:26):
And I am often drinking booze notoften, well pretty often, but M
it doesn't drink, so M alwaysis kind of the other side of that.
So milkshakes or tea or whatever,and you know, why do we
drink this week? And then hM tells a ghost story and I've never
heard it before. I don't knowwhat M has brought to the table,
so it's kind of a surprise.And then vice versa where I'll bring a
(09:50):
true crime story that M has neverheard of. So it's kind of a
fun little everyone gets to listen andlearn along with us. And I really
like that the drinking in fludes aperson who doesn't drink alcohol, because always,
really honest, I don't. I'myou're sober, so oh great,
congrats, thank you. So whenI hear that it includes like in the
book one of your features is likewhere you get your where you find your
(10:13):
wine and you're drinking, where shefinds her milkshake, and every place you
travel. And I like that inclusionbecause it is easy to feel left out
of drinking games. I'm not gonnalie. Oh yeah, And you know
it's so funny because M is likethe king of drinking games and like loves
loves to be, you know,more so than most people who play them.
And so you know, on toureven well m M makes the rules
(10:35):
for the drinking game for everybody,um, and we do have quite quite
a few listeners who don't drink orso I don't know, And so it
has always felt inclusive in that waythat like, you know, and especially
and then when I was pregnant,I got to join everybody else on this
right on the milkshake side. Yeah, So you know, we try to
make it as lucy goosey as possible, and we've found that people relate to
(10:58):
the phrase and if they don't drinkthemselves absolutely, like we know exactly what
you mean when someone says and that'swhy we drink, Like this is why
we drink. And it's collective understandingexactly, And there is just so much
that falls that's true. I don'tthink we realized at the time, like
how inclusive that umbrella phrase would befor everything under the sun that's happened in
(11:20):
the last five years, right,I mean, you were on the precipice
of massive world changes, Like,oh gosh, I have no idea,
it's so crazy. So let's talkabout a haunted road Outlast, which launched
in the spring. But talk aboutmore specifically the format of the book,
and then I want to hear kindof how the idea brewed between you and
M, like when it made senselike, oh, yeah, this is
(11:41):
a book. Yeah, yeah,we had always wanted to write a book,
and you know, Am, notoriouslyon the show, is not a
reader. And so the fact thatI convinced them to actually write a book,
I feel pretty proud of that becauseM was like, I don't even
read books, so I don't know. I was the last person I would
ever have thought to write one.But when we kind of felt like there
(12:03):
was something there, we started brainstormingand sketching out, and I think it
was pretty quick that the idea oflike a travel guide came up because the
way input it was, I'm I'monly writing the kind of book that I
would read or that I would beinterested in. So they didn't want it
to be you know, very wordyand long and no pictures, so like,
(12:24):
you know, there had to bedrawings, there had to be fun
facts, there had to be hadto be broken up into like little easy
to digest pieces, and yeah,M's favorite series is like Atlas obscura,
anything else obscura, and so thatwas an inspiration and so we kind of
cobbled together this, Like it feelssort of like the podcast has kind of
(12:45):
thrown up a book, like justall the things that you know, every
time we've toured in a city,we will take note of our favorite bars,
ice cream shops, oddity stores,like weird stuff that you wouldn't necessarily
find in your average travel guide.And so that's kind of the idea.
And originally we had wanted to put, you know, every city in America,
and then our publisher was like,this is going to be a six
(13:07):
thousand page book, and we said, never mind, So we had to
cut back a bit. But yeah, that's the idea, and you cover
a lot of states. How manyof them like thirty yeah, I think
there's thirty two cities, so someties. But yeah, we're pretty proud
of it. It was a workof love. So a lot of other
people are enjoying it. I meanthat's what I've heard from every author who's
(13:28):
published a book. And also Ithink m's the right idea, like why
write any other kind of book thanone that you would read? Like,
you know, it was a verywise statement. I absolutely agree with that.
I think that's how any artists shouldapproach anything they make. What's amazing
about the book, too, isthat it's kind of on the heels of
your tour, which lots of peoplepodcast not every podcast goes on tours,
(13:50):
like it's maybe a little more commonnow, and you know, but that's
a big deal that you can travelto different cities and big groups of people
will come and want to watch you. It's wild. We still don't clearly
get it. Yeah, like that, Like, so twenty did we say
twenty seventeen you started? So whendid the first tour kick on? You
(14:11):
know, I think it was twentyeighteen. Yeah, so yeah, I
don't know. We started February oftwenty seventeen, so it was probably about
a year and a half before wehad even had the notion in our minds
that that would be possible. Andof course the first live shows were you
know what, We actually did alive show at crime Con that was in
(14:31):
Nashville, Tennessee. But so wedid our first show there and it was
sort of a like a practice runand the room was packed and we were
like, oh my gosh, youknow, people came out to watch this,
and so we were. That's whenit kind of became more of a
reality. Yeah, and we hadgotten an email from a touring agent at
(14:52):
WMME and he said like, hey, we I'd love to just do some
practice shows if you guys are interested. And I thought it was spam,
and so I kept putting in thisbend filter because I was like, nobody's
gonna be sending is this That's ridiculous. I like cold emailing us. And
now I tell other podcasters like,hey, if you hear out like you
know, a lot of times asopportunities, they just find you, you
know online or they're you know,cropsourcing asking people to podcast wrecks and they'll
(15:16):
find you, So don't delete thoseemails. That's amazing. Yeah, so
he said, you know, sowe tried some local shows. I mean,
we were both in LA at thetime, so we did a couple
local shows at Hollywood Improv and yeah, they went really well. And so
over time he started putting together reallife tours and in twenty nineteen we did
(15:37):
our first one and it was kindof a wreck. I mean, it
went really well and it was asuccess in the standard sense, but also
we I think went to like fortyfive cities in like a three month period
and really wore ourselves. Since soall of that travel you did, that's
informing a lot of the book,right, Yeah, that's actually you know
what, You're right? That wasthat was maybe it was worth it for
(15:58):
that. I mean, really,it gave you a ton to work with.
So when when you made you know, lemonade out of lemons or something,
it really feels and reads like alove letter to your fans, Like
did you feel like you were talkingto your listeners? Oh? Absolutely,
Yeah. I love the phrase loveletter to it because I honestly feel a
(16:21):
lot of the time that I justwant to express That's kind of what our
show is. It's become because emand I didn't we weren't even like good
friends when we started the show.We had just kind of met, and
so I sort of feel like allour listeners kind of grew with us,
you know, as cheesy as thatsounds. And so yeah, the podcast,
the book almost feels like the podcastin written form, Like we're just
(16:41):
talking to people and letting them know, like well, our favorite parts of
their cities or you know, suggestions, and we love what Like I think
one of my favorite moments is whenpeople take a photo at one of the
places we've suggested and they tack usin it on Instagram and we're like,
yeah, oh, we loved itthere too. You know. It's it's
just a cool way to connect withpeople. It really is. And of
(17:03):
course I'm sure I did what alot of readers do, or what readers
will do when they get the bookis they kind of tear it and look
at all the cities and see ifthere's is in it or a place they've
been is in it. And Iwent right to New York and I was
like, where did they say?Where did they go? And I was
like, yep, yes, yes, oh good. And then you mention
the Nexium case, because I thinkin New York maybe you did the story
(17:26):
of Nexium. Yes, And Iwas kind of hoping we could just spend
a little time on it because absolutelyalways okay good. I was like,
I feel like Christine's going to beup for a quick Nexium chat because love
a little Nexium sidebar. Yeah,And it's been too long for me,
frankly, like they were so inthe news everywhere. I was talking about
them all the time. I washaving cult experts on all the time and
then oh, man kind of wentaway and I miss it. So I
(17:48):
know it was the time when myeven my husband was like really into it
and he's not, you know,in the true crime space. But we
watched the docuseries and he was askingme questions and I feel like, oh,
yeah, well did you know this, this, that and the other.
And I got to watch him seeeverything for the first time in a
docuseries. That was a very excitingtime. We had a parallel experience.
(18:08):
My husband definitely came in for thevow and the Nexium's story. Um,
he doesn't usually partake in the timesame thing. He's like, you know
more about Nexium than any woman nota Nexium should know. He was like,
I'm concerned, and I was like, listen, Like that's a compliment.
(18:29):
Yeah, I thought so. Andalso it's best to be aware because
I couldn't call him prey to KeithRanieri in a in a different time of
my life and those kneepads, man, you know, I mean you do
so not in the middle of thenight, but yeah, so how did
you discover the Nextium story? Andlike, what is your what is your
take on it? Because there's somany aspects to this story. Right,
(18:53):
We've got like women as victims,but are they also perpetrators? You've got
a cult leader. But it's somodern. It's you know, you think
of cults sometimes as like from along time ago, like jonestown tight yeah,
cut off from technology, yes,yeah. And I find it really
fascinating these more modern, like we'resaying modern cults because like the fact that
(19:17):
the people who run them, inthis case Keith Ranieri, who are the
kind of like narcissistic head of thiswhole hit show, I guess yeah,
they kind of put themselves in abad position ultimately, because like he wanted
everyone to film what he was doing, and then now we have all this
footage and rookie mistakes. It's like, well, what are you thinking?
(19:38):
But I just like the elements oftechnology in some of like especially in Nexium,
and you know, I remember theywere having to text each other like
everything they ate and had to getpermission, you know, to do all
these things, and it was viatext, And it honestly adds to me
like a more sinister level of likebeing controlled, because you can't just go
(20:02):
home and be you know, byyourself you're you're still being controlled via your
cell phone, and so a lotof it I think is fascinating to me
because of that element that like youdon't see with Manson or Jonestown or what
Heaven's Gate, you know. Yeah, the connection was like constant, constant,
(20:26):
yeah, yeah, And I justfound that it's so scary that I
guess I just struggled so much withthe women that I believed were victims becoming
perpetrators themselves. Like I was reallylike torn up about that how to feel
about it, like what should theirrightful punishment be? And it like brings
up that whole element of like thecycle of abuse, like oh, you
(20:49):
know you're you've been treated this way, and so you know the natural extension
of that is you treat other peoplethat way. But then where does the
responsibility lie exactly. Oh It's sucha scary gray area, it really is.
And I found it endlessly interesting towhere. I did attend to Alison
Max's sentencing because it was happening inNew York and it was open to the
(21:10):
public, so I went and Ijust it was so surreal. I mean,
I sat a few rows behind her, the handed down her sentence.
I know, I like cleared mycalendar for that, so like, this
is not normal, but whatever,I just I was invested at that point.
I was like, but she's likethe prime example of that, you
know. I think Nancy Salzman wasmuch more of a leader and an instigator
(21:30):
in it from the get But Ithink someone like Alison Mack just really she
really is a victim, but shealso, I believe, does need some
time to think about what she didto others. Yeah, but it's I
believe in redemption for everybody in thatstory except cuth Raineery. I mean that's
what I basically feeling. So farfar away, I can totally get on
(21:52):
board with that, Like, yeah, there was a lot, you know,
and I know that the term breakwhat do you call it, brainwashing
has been you know, is kindof controversial, but just the element of
like clearly people were fully absorbing thisbelief system and thinking like, oh,
you know, what they were doingwas the right thing to be doing.
And so you know, at acertain point you're like, well, like
(22:15):
where does the where does the intentionalitystart and where does the responsibility start?
And it's it's a lot of bigquestions came out of that whole case big.
And one thing that I remember learningfrom one of the experts I had
on who was featured actually in theVow and in the Seduced one with India
(22:37):
Oxenbourg. She was saying, likewhat you were saying that brainwashed is kind
of a controversial term. We don'treally use it as much anymore. And
she puts forth a new word calledbounded choice. So I know, really
hostile, right, because they didhave a choice. Nobody was well that
one girl. Nobody was locked ina room. There was one. Everyone
else could leave, but they werebound by these control methods that were deployed
(23:02):
like way before things got so dark. So it was so gradual, it
was a slow burn. Then allof a sudden they feel very very very
stuck. Yes, so it reallyShe tries to help people understand this idea
of brainwashing in a different from adifferent perspective, that like, there is
free will, but it's very hardto exercise that when those tactics have been
(23:22):
deployed on you for a period oftime. That is such a fascinating way
to look at it, and notto just like completely throw a different case
in here. But I remember whenI was researching the Elizabeth Smart case for
the book. I remember her readingthat her mom was saying, like,
we really don't like to say shewas brainwashed, and that was one of
the big running story. Actually,you know what you asked me earlier,
(23:45):
what was one of the earliest casesI got into. I think the Elizabeth
Smart case. I was probably inlike fifth grade, sixth grade. I
remember just being like following that fromday one, you know, all the
way through. And so I rememberreading, you know, a couple of
years ago that her mom was saying, we don't like to use that term,
but that was one of the bigthrough lines of of course, like
the media store is story on this, and I remember thinking, like,
(24:08):
man, I wish there was abetter way to describe that feeling of feeling
trapped, but also you know,yeah, feeling like you don't have a
choice, but it's not necessarily like, oh, your brain has been completely
wiped, you know, by somebodyelse, right exactly. And also there's
without understanding it, there is atendency to blame the yes people in those
(24:30):
situations. People go, why didn'tshe just run? Why didn't she just
leave? Like, you know,especially in the next game case, I
mean Elizabeth smarts. It was abit more understanding why she didn't. She
was a young child in like aterribly abusive situation where she was captive,
although people still said it to her. Yeah when she had that moment,
when she was out in public,right, like they would take her to
(24:52):
parties and stuff. Yeah, exactly. But the next thing, they're like,
why didn't they just leave? Andit's just not that simple. Oh,
So till people understand that kind ofnuance, it's it's I don't really
yeah, I don't care for thewhy didn't they just leave? Yes,
Oh it's a bad it's not agood it's not a good. Look.
Yeah. I think one of thethings that next seam also showed, at
least to me, is like thiscan happen to anybody. Like there,
(25:15):
you know, there are so manyparts of it in the beginning where you're
kind of like, oh, Icould see why somebody would say that's an
interesting concept, and I want tobetter myself and I want to learn and
make connections with people, so like, you know, you can see how
these things kind of become insidious andcan trap people. It's not just you
know, quote unquote vulnerable, weakpeople that get sucked into these kind of
(25:37):
positions. I think that's probably themost important thing that came out of Yeah,
all the next seam content is thatit shows how universal and how susceptible
so many of us are. AndI think anyone unwilling to admit that they
could be vulnerable to that isn't alittle bit of denial it because there's a
cult for everyone. It might nothave been Next Sea, it's a cult
for everyone. Yeah, but like, yeah, so true. They prey
(26:00):
on your interest and the good thingin you and they exploit it. Right.
So for Haaven's Gate it was likean interest in other galaxies in UFOs,
and for Next Time it was selfimprovement and changing the world. Like,
none of those are bad things,and there are things a niche of
people gravitate towards. Absolutely, that'syeah, that's a great There's a cull
for everyone, so, you knoweveryone. I like that. I live
(26:23):
my life with that understanding. Everywherewe need to make T shirts. Yeah
I would wear that. So ofall the places you traveled, I want
to know, like what city ismost memorable or in what city did you
have a most memorable experience on tour? You know, I think I gotta
say New Orleans. It's just oneof those towns, especially for people into
(26:47):
the spooky stuff that it just hasmy heart, you know, And I
actually had never been before before touringthere. It's just such a cool,
beautiful, unique, beautiful historic city. And you know, Marty grab partying
aside, there's so much history,and so much history is really the only
(27:08):
work he can come up with.But it like bleeds into everything. So
as far as you know, allthe ghost hunts you go on, it's
not just like, oh, there'sghosts here, it's like, well,
you know, this was an orphanagein a hospital, and the French and
the span, I mean, thekind of stuff that we learned just going
on. You know, your averageghost hunt was like mind boggling. And
you know, I think while wewere there, Um m likes to travel
(27:33):
in a very unique way. Andthis might be why the book worked well
too, because Mum is a verylike you know, and wants to squeeze
in every possible activity and touristy thinginto a day. And I'm more like
I want to sleep in a nicehotel bed and like slowly meander to breakfast.
It's just very like there are twotypes of travelers, and both of
(27:56):
them represent both yea yes, Andyou know, I think the way the
reason it works because we're both comfortableletting the other person go do their thing
and we're comfortable doing it ourselves.But our producer Evo was with us on
that one hit that show, andshe also tour manages for us. While
we're touring, and she and Iwe're at brunch and we just thought,
like, I don't know where itcame from, but we said, should
(28:18):
we get tattoos? And we justwandered down the road and got tattoos.
And it wasn't like, oh adrunken decision, like we were just you
know, in New Orleans and wefelt like I had the time, had
the time, had the place.So we kind of brainstormed over breakfast and
when got little tattoos and now wehave kind of, um, just little
mementos from being there, and it'sjust one of those cities where it was
(28:40):
both such a neat and cool citybut also you know, we did some
really fun and interesting stuff and yeah, yeah, or they were not that
would be fun because I we shouldget matching one. Yeah, it would
be culty and kind of cute,very cool. I like that you each
had your own vision and that's abig decision to make spontaneously. That's yes.
(29:02):
And it was only my second tattoo, so it wasn't like, oh,
you know, just ad it was. It was very just I don't
know. It's one of those wherewe said this will be memorables, right,
yeah, all right, very verycool. Okay, Now I want
to know where have you not traveledin the United States? Yeah? You
know what, I can't even thinkof a place. This is so silly
(29:22):
of a place. Well, I'dlove to go to, um, you
know some some of these spooky aliensites, like in Nevada. So where
like where that seems right up youralley? I would love that. So
I wasn't planning of asking you this, and I don't know that I've ever
asked to guess this before, butit feels right. Um do you believe?
Are you just interested? Or doyou believe in ghosts? And more?
(29:48):
Um? What is the word foraliens? Extraterrestrials? Yes, aliens
felt wrong? Aliens works too?Yes, you know I do, and
I I will say m is definitelyI'm the more skeptical person on a team.
Of two people who are not allthat skeptical. So, like the
(30:08):
bar is very low because EM believesliterally anything and everything, and like EM
will see my cat knock something offthe table and be like it was a
ghost, and I'm like, Isee my cat doing it. But anyway,
so there's a little bit of adifference there in skepticism. But you
know, I've had a few experiences, and weirdly enough, I have.
(30:29):
I hadn't had any, you know, ghostly experiences really until we started the
podcast, and then I've had Ithink two or three things happened that I
just thoroughly can't explain. And um, it's sort of added an element of
like, Okay, so you knowthis isn't just like a whimsical conversation.
I really do believe that some ofthis stuff, not all of it,
(30:52):
but you know, some of itis very real. And then as far
as aliens extraterrestrials, I also believeit, but I'm very scared of them.
So okay, I'm like, Ibelieve in them, but I'm like,
but leave me alone, please,I don't I don't want to prove
it. So can you tell meif the ghost encounters were like friendly or
(31:12):
were they scary? One was veryscary. I was in Its happened a
few weeks ago. Actually it wasvery recent. Um I was in Knoxville,
Tennessee, just driving through. UmMy husband and I took the baby
down to meet some like relatives thatwe were. We stopped in Knoxville and
we'd never been and we stayed inthis like pretty brand new just like a
(31:33):
I don't know, holiday and somesort of just hotel brit Chane hotel downtown,
but in this beautiful like arts district, theater district and beautiful old buildings.
And that night, oh gosh,it was probably it was, of
course, like three thirty in themorning. And I suddenly woke up and
the babies in the pack and play, and I hear um one of her
(31:56):
toys, which is on the counteracross the room, just talking away and
it's saying, let's play. AndI'm like, okay, cool, good
start nightmares stuff of nightmares. AndI like wake up, and I look
around and there is who I thinkhe's my husband, sitting on the edge
of the bed just staring at me. But then I go, oh,
my, you know, Blaze doesn'twear white tank tops like undershirts to bed,
(32:21):
like, who who is that?So I went blaze and then as
it was so trippy, it wassort of like that dissolve effect on power
Point where it just kind of likedissolved into particles, and I was just
like, I don't think so,I don't love this. Um just a
just a dude sitting at the edgeof the bed staring at me, very
unsettling, and you know, youhear these stories and it's like, oh,
(32:45):
maybe they were dreaming whatever, andit's this happened, and I went,
Okay, whatever that was, itwasn't a dream. I was very
much awake and her toy was goingoff across the room and I think I
cued it up. It's like,yeah, it's almost like it woke me
up to like see it. Idon't know. It was really unst see
(33:06):
their face and can you still seetheir face or was it more like it
was I think I would be fillingin the blanks a little bit if I
tried to describe it, but itwas I definitely see their body shape.
It was like a kind of awiry old man essentially in like a white
tank top and just kind of staringat me at the foot of the bed.
(33:27):
And then this part was weird tojust kind of like a strange footnote
is that I found I kind ofwoke up and had to you know,
I just got up to like geta glass of water or something, and
I realized I was like laying ontop of the sheets that were like tucked
into the hotel bed like really tightly. And I had at hotels I like
to like slide under and be likesnuggled in, but I had somehow been
(33:52):
like moved from underneath the covers toon top of them. And it was
a very strange moment of like,what the how did this happen? I
don't know the whole thing question,Yes exactly, that's the way to put
it. So it doesn't prove everything, but it was very uncomfy. Yeah,
it sounds uncomfory. Yeah, Ialways wonder it's like to ghost only
(34:15):
visit people who believe in them,you know, like or I guess if
you don't, and then you seeyou when you become a believer. Yeah,
I know, but it's hard tosay. And I feel like a
lot of people have that saying oflike, oh I don't believe in any
of that, but one time thisweird thing did happen. So, you
know, I think that's so true. It has a little bit of I
think at least most people will havea little bit of a curiosity about it,
(34:38):
and they leave room for the possibilities. Yeah, I'm definitely not going
to tell someone definitively um yeah,but I probably would say I'm more on
the skeptic side, but super curiousto hear other people who aren't, Like,
it's still yeah, that's kind ofyeah. I think that's a great
place to be. Yeah. Yeah, it feels like it until until toy
(34:58):
spontaneously starts. Yeah, you don'trecommend that. I've stopped. We stopped
traveling with those. I was like, I don't want those in hotel rooms
anymore. It was so sinister.It's like, let's yea, you know,
there should not be a toy thatdoes that. No, that's true
too. I like in the daylight, I was like, who invented this
thing? Terrible? A true crimeperson, probably morbid. Well, this
(35:22):
was a blast, and your bookis a blast, and your podcast is
a blast, and I'm thrilled wefinally connected. But I do have a
closing question, which is a realgear switch. Yes, yes, I
saw this. I think you hadsent in some brainstorming questions. Stay with
me. At the close of everyinterview, you know, by season,
I ask like the same question toevery guest, And right now we're talking
(35:44):
about justice, So I want toknow in your own words, there's no
right or wrong, But how doyou define justice? Yeah, I feel
like maybe I've just gotten jaded overtime. But I think at least for
me in the context at least ofbeing a victim, I think justice is
almost a feeling that you're being seen, maybe for what you've gone through,
(36:08):
if that makes any sort of sense. So like that feeling of, you
know, justice doesn't necessarily fix,you know, what happened, or actually
never really does fix what happened,but maybe there's an element of like,
Okay, you know, I'm I'mbeing seen for what happened, for what
I've gone through, for um,what I've been put through. So that's
(36:28):
that's about as far as I cankind of stretch it in my own terms.
I like that a lot, andI think that is a really beautiful
answer. So I think, oh, my goodness, well, thank you.
I love everyone's different answers and thatthey're all true. Yes, so
question you know, exciting about it. So, Christine, thank you so
much for killing the small talk today. This has been such an honor.
(36:51):
I am really really had a blast, and you asked some great questions.
Man, I mean so some ofthese I've never been asked before. So
thank you for an awesome interview.Well, thanks for being up for it.
You're welcome back anytime and maybe withm yes, that'll be fine.
Dialogue is a yellowtape media production audioengineered by Jason Ussrie and produced, posted,
(37:14):
and edited by me Rebecca Sebastian.If you love the podcast, please
consider becoming a diehard by signing upat Patreon dot com slash Dialogue. Other
ways to support the show follow alongon social media. We are at Dialogue
pod across platforms, and you cannow watch most episodes on YouTube by subscribing
to my channel Rebecca Sebastian. Formore information or to drop me a note,
(37:36):
visit Rebecca Sebastian dot com. Untilnext time, thank you for listening
and killing the small talk. Thisis our prime suspect, Jason Derek Brown.
(37:57):
Tough to say where you might beheaded at this point? I love
you. You should see what kindof trail. This guy leaves us pretty
soon, just not the Jason.I know he's a con man, Melanie,
plain and simple. I need tospeak with Jason. My brother is
dead in Quadruple. Now. Iknow you know Jason, and I know
(38:19):
he's been here recently. Yeah,a little opportunity eighty grand three days.
I'm gonna rob an armored TRUV andI want you to help me. That's
a lovely pig. He's dead Andno, Mommy, you're never gonna find
(38:40):
him. Sure about that. I'msure you'll figure something out. Is there
any part of that brain of yours? They could just tell you to stop
bits. He won't get away withus. H one man, Okay,
(39:04):
it's a loaded gun. Tell mewhere is your brother? And do not
lie to me? Did you tellit? I always tell you the truth.
Do you know that? Dadly?Go ahead, sir
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