Jimanekia Eborn | What Does Your Safety Look Like? - DIE-ALOGUE

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
High listeners. Today we're talking aboutconsent as it relates to sexual assault and
trauma. If this is a sensitivetopic for you, please take care of
while listening, or feel free toskip this one. There are a lot
of great resources in the show notesthat you can also refer to. Welcome

(00:50):
to Dialogue Podcast. I'm your host, Rebecca Sebastian, and every week I
sit down with the leading voices andcrime, culture and justice to talk about
the most pressing issues and true crime. Today we are continuing the conversation about
consent, and if you didn't hearlast week's episode, I do suggest going
back and listening, as it reallyframes the whole topic very nicely. Today

(01:11):
we're taking a less legislative, lesslegal look at consent and examining it much
more personally. My guest Jimminika Eborn, is the perfect person to help us
do just that. Jimminika, aself proclaimed trauma queen, is no stranger
to the world of trauma, crimeand consent. Before she was two years
old, her mother was murdered andmuch of her life was shadowed by the

(01:33):
man who was known to her andher family who did it. Eventually,
Jimminica would decide she wanted to helpothers impacted by trauma, but the way
she ended up doing so was completelydifferent from her original plan. Jimminika is
a queer trauma media consultant, comprehensivesex educator, and sexual assault and trauma
expert. She is an advocate andchampion for survivors and victim and has excellent

(01:55):
language and resources that we can alltap into as we try to navigate this
topic and make the world a saferplace. She's also really funny. I
can't wait for you to meet her. All of her handles and resources are
in the show notes, and Iwould strongly encourage you to check those out.
Jimminika, thank you for killing thesmall talk. Jimminica, Welcome to

(02:20):
Dialogue Podcast. Thrilled to meet youtoday. Thank you for having me.
I'm looking forward to it. Ohmy gosh, meet too. I mean,
this is not small stuff. Thisis not a light topic that we're
going to be discussing, but Iappreciate your willingness to talk about it.
I think you bring a very uniqueand important perspective, and so maybe we
could just start with who you are, what you do, and also what

(02:42):
led you to the work you do. I had you on because you're an
expert in sexual trauma and healing recoveryfrom said trauma. I know you're gonna
have a lot of great perspectives onconsent. But how did you get here?
Well, that's always the fun story. People go, wait what,
So I always like to preface itwith I'm going to say a hard thing.
I have always called myself a childof trauma. My story is actually

(03:07):
the start of a true crime story. My mother was murdered in front of
me when I was one years old. I'm my possible sperm donor, and
honestly, these just now being heldaccountable for the murder thirty four years later,
which is a whole world spend.But that led me to growing up
being raised by her parents. Itled me to want to help other domestic

(03:30):
silence survivors. So I went toschool to be a detective, essentially because
I'm a law or scuge kid.I'm many yeah face for all of us.
It's a community here, Yes,it truly is, and so that's
what I wanted to do. Iwas like, this is the way that
I can show up and help people, And then I realized their real burnout
rate because it's not a television show. It's very high. And I actually

(03:53):
ended up being raped my third yearof college when I was twenty one,
and as it does for many people, will changed my entire life and I
started to work with survivors. Istarted working with survivors before I even shared
that I was raised with anyone,and so I didn't share that I had
to rape for seven years. WhenI started to kind of transition my work

(04:13):
into sex said and writing more andspeaking more, I figured I was like,
it's probably time to tell my familyand my friends. And it was
the time. It was the time, but it was a beautiful time because
I truly am so loved and supportedand I think that was a really good
reminder for me. And so Itransitioned from just working in mental health to

(04:34):
also working in sex head and sothat is when I became a comprehensive sexuality
educator. And I was like,well, I want to work in sex
like I wanted a job that wasever evolving and never boring, and I
was sex. And my grandfather,who I called my mom, she was
like, what the hell does thatmean? What what do you mean sex?

(04:54):
What are we doing? And Iwas like, I'll get back to
you right right, And so Ientered the field, and I like,
everyone's talking about loobs and condoms andall these magical things, but what about
the high percentage of us that aresurvivors that maybe can't get to that part
yet because they have some other thingsthey need to work through or find,
strengthen or reconnect with their body.And I was like, Oh, that's

(05:15):
my jam, That's what I wastalking about. And so the merger of
my mental health background along with mysex said background, this is how I
got to be right at being thetrauma Queen and getting to travel and speak
to amazing survivors and teach people thatsurvivors look a plenty and that they are
always among us, and so muchmore. So that's the gist of how

(05:36):
I got here. Wow, thatwas so much more than I expected and
that i'd read. So thank youfor telling us and for taking us all
the way back to the beginning.So back to your work. This summer,
there was a breaking story in thetrue crime community about one of our
own, a journalist, podcast orauthor who's had allegations against him and right

(05:57):
now they are just allegations. Sohe is the accused, don't you know,
there is no verdict, there's noteven been a trial or charges.
But it did bring to light that, of course we're not immune, and
of course even within this space therecould be dangers because you know, typically
for women, there just are theseinherent dangers. And so it got me
thinking about consent, and it gotme thinking that that is what is in

(06:19):
the like messy middle of some ofthese stories, right and the me too
movement. And I'm just curious tohear from you if we could start framing
a conversation by asking, you know, what are we getting wrong about consent?
From your perspective, I think thatpeople think that consent is like a
new thing. It's like a buzzword, and people just kind of throw it
around, like, well, youdidn't consent to this, Like what is

(06:40):
actual consent? It is opting intosomething, but it's also something that's active.
You might be a yes, andthen five minutes later you're like,
actually, I hate this. Thisis a no for me now. And
so consent is active and ongoing.And so I am aware of this story
that you were telling me about.Someone actually sent it to me okay a

(07:00):
while ago, and reading through thestory. One of the accusers I actually
know her, and I was like, huh wow, this is wild.
But I think what people are trulyforgetting about consensus, that it is active,
that it can change at any second, that people should continue to check
in. And I know people,I was like, consense not sexy.

(07:23):
I'm like, you know, what'ssexy Being able to feel face and present
and feeling like I'm also in controlof what happened to me or around me.
I think that's super important that peoplethink like, well, they dated
one time, or they flirted onetime, that was an instant. It
doesn't mean that the door is openfor harassment or harm or any of that

(07:45):
type of thing. I think thatgets truly lost. When I was raised,
it was something I had been withbefore, and I consent to being
awoken. I was at home,in my bed, sleeping. I didn't
consent to that. Right because wehad interactions before doesn't mean that you can
now have access to my body wheneveryou want. So for me, that's
what consent looks like. It iscontinuous, it is engaging. It is

(08:07):
something that we check in on becausewe are ever evolving humans, So why
wouldn't consent also be ever evolving.I really like that it's active and it's
moving, it's not static. AndI'm really dumbing this down a little bit
when I'm talking to the guests I'mhaving on in the series, because I
really want people to understand. So, is verbal explicit consent necessary? Does

(08:28):
there have to be a yes ora noun? I have often said yes,
but I've also learned a lot fromthe disabled community that sometimes a verbal
yes isn't able to be provided,right, And so I think that yes,
for most things, verbal consent isa hell yes right. But I

(08:48):
also know for some people sometimes abody movement and engagement ahead nod right,
like a hand touch engagement can alsobe yes. For some people. I
will always say to verbalize first ifyou are able to yeah, and couldn't
there be situations, certainly where youare scared and terrified or unsure, and

(09:15):
in that case relying on a verbalaffirmation might be really difficult. So that's
where the body language piece comes in. Absolutely absolutely, And I think you
know, we talk about great areasin all of these things, and sometimes
our bodies are hightened right in thesense of flight or fight or fawn,
which I think more people are finallyunderstanding what Fawn is. It is adapting

(09:39):
to the situation, wation and thebest way possible, because that is the
way you think you're keeping yourself safe. And what that looks like. Sometimes
it might look like smiling, itmight look like agreeing with someone while also
trying to figure out how to getout of that situation. Right, Sometimes
not fighting back is the best wayto keep yourself safe in that situation.

(10:00):
It doesn't mean that you are agreeingto it. It doesn't mean that you
are a hell yes, it meansfor you in that moment, that was
the safest thing you could do thatyou knew to take care of yourself.
And so there is the greatness ofwhom is this person that needs to be
you know, checked in with?What does that look like? And so

(10:20):
that's so interesting the fourth one,So we've fight and flight, which most
people know in the way of free. So you're saying Fawn, right,
Fawn, Yeah, that's that's reallyhelpful to know because I think that's that's
a often used tactic, probably subconsciously. But then could it parallel be made
you know, I'm a child ofthe nineties. I'm going to date myself
now. So I'm in high schoolin the nineties, I'm getting our education

(10:41):
around sexual harassment. This was whatwe were really big into because this is
like post Clarence Thomas in high school, it doesn't matter how the harasser intended
what they did. It's how thereceiver received it and interpreted it. So
it doesn't matter if it was intendedto be harassment. And I remember lots
of debates among these mature, youknow, fifteen sixteen seventeen year olds in

(11:03):
my class, debating whether that wasright or not. But it seems like
that would carry over to these scenariosrights. It's the intention of the person
on the receiving end, how they'rereceiving it, not how the person meant
it. I would say yes,right, because again, the perpetrator might
be like, well I've done thisbefore, like it's totally fine, and
the receivers like, this is notfine. I did not opt into this.

(11:24):
So I would say yes because itis the person that is receiving the
harm. They are the ones thatget to dictate what have happened to them.
And I think that's what gets lostin all of this is the person's
like, well, I didn't meanto do that, so you shouldn't be
upset. You can't tell anyone howto feel on how they are treated.
So then this is that gray areaand the messy middle, because let's talk

(11:48):
about the difference between regret and Iwasn't safe in that situation and that wasn't
okay with me, and that crosseda boundary and a line and someone just
saying like I now wish that hadn'thappened, which is different. Do you
know what I mean? So thisis what I think. How do we
reconcile those two realities so that everybodyis safe and on the same page about

(12:11):
it a sexual experience? I thinkit is case by case. I think
it is a conversation and like,Okay, what didn't you like about the
situation? Do you feel? Andfor me, I'm also like a question
answer because I want people to getto their own responses, just like I
will never say that you are asurvivor, you are a victim? What
would you like to be called?Yeah? Like how would you like to

(12:33):
name it? And so at thatinstance, like what made you feel uncomfortable
about it? Yeah? What doyou what are you thinking? Now?
Are you feeling now? Because there'salso the instance of some people the way
that they have been raised. Theyhave been taught to keep it cute,
keep it quiet, go along withpeople, and it's not their fault,

(12:54):
right, And later they're like,no, that was assault, Like I
didn't I didn't under standing in thatmoment because they've learned, they've upgraded their
language. So I think there isthe nuance of I didn't actually like that,
like I don't think I want todo that again, like I'm uncomfortable,
versus that was very harmful for me. I was not able to say

(13:15):
yes or no, or even ifI did say no, they didn't hear
me, and they were like theythought it was a game, right,
the idea of how boys quote unquoteare raised on if they say no,
try harder. Right, Well,this, I mean I was going to
say, I hate to say it. I don't hate to say it.
I mean, let's go back towhat this is, which is rape culture
and things that the things that wereokay and we're accepted and encouraged for centuries

(13:41):
or decades or whatever, and nowit's different. So I think there is
a lot of retroactive reckoning on thepart of women, mostly going wait a
minute, like what has been okayis no longer, and I think people
can feel that on an individual leveland look at events in their lives and
say, oh, I would responddifferently now knowing what I know. Absolutely,
I think information is so helpful.And again, as I said,
we're always growing and should always belearning hopefully across the fingers. Everyone's evolving

(14:07):
and we are constantly getting updated information. The things you were taught in high
school, I wasn't taught in highschool. Maybe I was taught something new
kids in high school now they're taughtdifferent things because information is always moving.
And I think when you're younger orjust the ways that we were raised and
assimilated, assimilated into this culture oflife is boys will just be boys.

(14:33):
There's always excuses for behaviors, andthere's never the centering of the person that
has been harmed and that has beenTruly my biggest issue is even when you
look at most true crime stuff,right like, yeah, I see one
more murder documentary about anyone, Like, there's so many, so many Tundays,

(14:56):
let's just use Tunda. Isn't thereeno the one that just came out.
Yeah, we don't need to keepcentering these people that have caused harm
because you know who we're de centering, the people that lost their lives,
the people that were harmed, thepeople that we should actually be focusing on
and stop romanticizing this other side,which it's very wild to me. And

(15:18):
it's it's also just like you know, the good boy cults, not the
good boys. What is it likethe boys clubs and boys will be boys
and it's okay. This country isbuilt on this head white bed, Yeah,
and their needs. If we're justbeing honest, I've had a smoothie

(15:39):
this morning, I'm awake, behonest. That is what this country has
been built around. And so wheneveryone's like this system is flawed, I'm
like, no, it's not,and they go, wait what I was
like, The system is working justhow it was built. It's built to
keep these people safe. Well,this is I mean, it runs parallel

(16:03):
to systemic racism, which the countryis is slowly you know, waking up
to in in waves. Right,that it's not broken. It's designed this
way. Now we have to breakand dismantle it. Yeah, it is
the same. And speaking of TedBundy, you know I've had he also
has living survivors and nobody knows theirnames, and I've had one on the

(16:26):
podcast and it's just shocking to me. Um, you know, these are
women who've written books, who dopublic speaking, and everyone's like who.
It's like, oh, you know, no big deal, just a woman
who testified against him in court,like a true heroine. Like it's really
amazing to watch our obsession with serialkillers who are by a large white man,

(16:48):
and meanwhile we have these incredible storiesof survivors who who have a story
to tell as well. So thisleads me in because your work is really
in its survivor focused. So howdo you and I want to get into
that. What about the onus onthe perpetrators? And I'm going to use
men for the most part. Iknow we're talking very much in like a
you know, these become very hesaid, she said cases, And I

(17:10):
know that that is changed too,right, But I am so I want
to get to that as well.But first, does any of your work
center around the preempting of this?How are you changing the way boys and
men are taught about consent instead ofjust let's teach women and marginalized communities how
to feel safer in the world.Self defense whistles apps you know that keep

(17:34):
us safe? What are we whatare we doing or do you know of
anything happening in the space that's actuallytrying to decondition or reprogram thinking around consent
and assault. Yeah, I knowthat. I've seen a lot more information
being offered. There's a lot moreabout like emotional intelligence for men and giving
them spaces to be able to connectand go oh, I wasn't taught this,

(17:57):
Like, I've seen a lot ofthat are popping up, and of
course there will be other people,like in cells, that are like,
absolutely not, this is not whatit's supposed to be. I do think
the conversation is changing with allowing peopleto have voices and ask questions, and
most of my work is to turnaround survivors. Absolutely, But I'm also

(18:19):
someone that believes in doing back inwork because I think the back in work
is how we actually help survivors.And so I believe that those that cause
harm need also help in the sensethat people go, wait, what,
I think they need mental health support. I think they need to have conversations.
I think that they need to beheld accountable versus just putting someone in

(18:41):
prison and just letting them sit notforcing them to look at their own actions
besides just housing them in a spacethat's not helpful because nine times out of
ten people come out and can reada sense. Yeah, because they're taught
nothing. There's no new skills,there is no new information, there is

(19:02):
no checking in on their own mentalpsyche and whatnot. And this is a
discounting that some people are just peoplethat cause harm in this world, right,
And I think that that's a realthing. So I also believe that
teaching other people how to show upfor survivors is helping survivors. So I
do a class or have conversations withindividuals to show up for survivors because people

(19:26):
always will go, well, Idon't know any survivors, And I was
like, oh, honey, that'snot true. Yeah, yeah, right,
it's maybe they haven't told you,maybe they haven't shared it with you.
But we will never have the truenumber. What do they have now?
It is one in six men,one in three women. That that
doesn't count for LGBTQ folks, itdoesn't account for trans folks, it doesn't

(19:48):
count for people that will never report. The numbers will never be accurate and
they will always be higher. Andso we need to take account for what
is happening. You need to havethese conversations, and for me, I
think the more conversations we have,the ways can be more spread on how
we can support individuals. So inthe survivors you work with, is there

(20:12):
an even split. Is it survivorswho have been attacked or assaulted by a
stranger in one of those scenarios,or is it more what you see what
you experienced, which is at thehands of a partner or a former partner.
You know, most survivors are harmedby people we've trusted. Yeah,
and you know television will tell youotherwise, someone in a dark alley.

(20:33):
Does that happen? Absolutely, nottaking away from that, but it is
someone that has gained your trust andyou let your guard down. So it
is often by someone that I've seenthat they've dated, a family member,
a neighbor, a siblings friend,a siblings friend's parents, because you have
felt safe enough to be in thatspace. That's I think always more terrifying

(20:57):
of a reality true, right thinkingknow, women should be so much more
afraid of their husbands than the serialkiller, because it's just statistically true.
I don't mean to make that soundfunny, it's just the irony of it
that we are locking our doors forthe boogeyman out there, and it's you
know, it's definitely someone that hashad access to our intimate life most likely.

(21:21):
Are there other common threads you seeamong survivors and victims. I'm sure
everyone's story is so unique, butusually it's somebody they've trusted, that they've
let into their world. Well,other things, if any are unified among
them. Well, what I alsowant to note that, you know,
we could be harmed by anyone.I've also been harmed by women, and
so I want to make sure thatwe're taking note that all bodies, all

(21:44):
genders, all identities, and allages can be harmed and can harm.
I always like to make you know, want to make that very clear.
And what I have seen across theboard's trust, right like, we don't
know who to trust anymore because ofthat reallyationships, you don't know if the
person the next person is going todo the same thing. So I think

(22:06):
something that I've been talking about oftenwith survivors and just thinking about for myself
is the common thread is we're oftenwalking around holding our breath, waiting for
the next foot to drop. We'rewaiting for something else to happen. And
so what I will do often withmy clients, with my friends, I'm
like, when's the last time youtook an intentional breath? And people go,
wait, what, and I'm like, it is the last time you

(22:30):
took a breath? And they'll takeone and be like now and I'm like
yeah, I'm like how did thatfeel? And they'll be like, I
didn't know. I need a set. Yeah. Because so many of us,
especially those that are vulnerable them identifiedfolks, elderly children, which is
bullshit, are constantly in fear ofwhat can happen to them because society has

(22:51):
made us the most vulnerable prey outhere. And when I say society,
it is just everything around us.Television, some podcasts that are super fucking
cringe movie, some pornographics, films, right like, there is a lot
that is out in the world thatsays no doesn't actually mean no. And

(23:17):
do you think you know when you'retalking about let's say someone goes to prison
for an offense like this and workingwith them outside of serial offenders, you
know, either murderers or serial rapists, do you think there is the potential
in most people to rehabilitate, toreorient their thinking on this, because it

(23:38):
is truly an oversight in the air, products of an environment they grew up
in, either within their home ortheir school, and their larger culture,
not to mention all of society.Do you think there is actual hope for
them to have like a breakthrough andthey're thinking and be able to recognize their
participation and their wrongdoing. I thinkthat there is an option for some people.

(23:59):
Yeah, it's just like saying peoplethat struggle with other things can't get
help. I don't think that thatdoor should be closed, but I do
think there should be a dormanitor.The fact that brock Turner is out here
living his best life still when someonewitnessed him assaulting a woman is beyond me
because they didn't want him to nothave a nice life. Talk to you,
this is exactly who I actually waspicturing when I asked the question,

(24:22):
because I'm like, yeah, weare so unwilling to make a person like
him uncomfy, like to rob themof their future. And I think,
you know, and I don't wantto say that the judge or everybody looking
and didn't feel the same way forChanelle Miller. I think people agree that
was like a terrible thing that happenedto her, but it was so much

(24:42):
lower on the priority list thinking aboutwhat this took from her that I am.
I'm just floored, and I thinkI am not positive somebody like him
will have the reckoning they need whenwe are dealing with them with kid gloves.
Absolutely, And think about it likethat, if a child does something,
if a child destroys your shoes andthey're not held accountable, they'll be

(25:04):
like, oh, why can clearlydo this all the time? Right?
If you're not held accountable, thenwhy would you stop? If there's no
consequences? Right? And then you'retold, you know what, you deserve
a book deal, if you deservea television show? What? Yeah?
What is the message you're putting outto survivors? Coming forward is painful?

(25:25):
It is something that will change yourlife forever and never leave you. And
also all of the things that youare doing for yourself to show up for
yourself doesn't matter. So why wouldsurvivors come forward if telling your story get
you dragged on the internet and youget death threat because you finally were able
to say, hey, this bad, scary thing happened to me and this
is not okay. Yeah, andthey're scrutinized beyond belief and practically investigated.

(25:49):
So what do you advise survivors,victims who are working with you, who
come to you who aren't sure ifthey want to come forward and maybe start
a criminal case or investigation. I'msure you want to empower them to make
the decision, But what what advicedo you give them and what ways do
you give them to think about it? Yeah, I give them all of
the information. Here's what you cando. Here's the ways that you can

(26:15):
go and report this. Here's whereyou can have someone go with you.
Here's possible questions they might ask you. I am someone that is a frontloader,
and of like, how can Igive you all the information to allow
you to make your own decision.I'm like, here's other decisions you can
do and you cannot tell anyone.You can heal yourself. You can report
it anonymously. Like there's things thatyou can do that aren't always what society

(26:40):
tells you, right, Like societytells us to go report it to the
police, when a lot of thetimes people go to report it to the
police and they're actually reharmed by theseindividuals because what people in power what is
that people in power have harmed usforever, And so I give them that
option, and I'm honest with them. A lot of people don't go forward.
I did not report my rights becauseyou know, I think there's the

(27:04):
bigger thing is what does your safetylook like? And I'm always trying to
put forward with folks. You don'thave to report it if you don't want
to, if you need to centeryour own safety and well being. Yeah,
what I'm hearing is that there's options, and that actually doesn't feel well
known. It feels like you kindof silently suffer with this truth to yourself,
or you report it to the policeand there's this huge public investigation and

(27:26):
everybody knows to know that there arepaths and different ways you can go about
it is why your work is invaluable. So going back to the story that
we've referred to and aren't directly naming, I want to talk about power dynamics,
and this is where I feel likeit gets so complex. I'm calling
this series the Complexity of Consent becausethis, to me, is where the

(27:48):
rubber hits the road. You've gottwo adults, so there's no age issue.
Nobody's a minor. And let's saythey're even like very similar aged.
When someone has and wields more powerthan the other, can equal playing field,
you know, for romantic or sexualrelationship even exist because it seems like
two people can choose to come together. One might be famous or have more

(28:11):
money than the other, or theywork in the same space and one has
more clout there does that just automaticallymake this just not wrong criminally? But
what are your thoughts on that?I'll pose it as a question. Yeah,
I think our dynamics are very realand need to be looked at in
the sense of there is always someonein a situation that might be in a
different place than the other person.Right, So we're just acknowledging that.

(28:33):
Yeah, I don't think all powerdynamics are wrong right now, right,
some people like to play in powerdynamics. So again we're just naming the
obvious for some folks. But ina work situation, in a let's just
let's just stick with a work situation. So if someone as again we're not
naming that has a higher show theydo, that is saying, you know,

(28:56):
I'll put you on my show,I'll help you blow up. Let's
go out on this date. There'salready an incentive you going on this date.
Is now how they're going to helpyou. Yeah, that's already unbalanced.
Or if you're thinking this person islike so magical because we put celebrities
on a pedestal, which is anotherweird thing we do in Americain just the

(29:18):
world. This person can get meinto door, this person can possibly change
my life. This person can dothese things. These are not all the
thoughts, but these are possible thoughts. Right, I don't think that there
can be an equal if there's asomewhat not bartering but putting something on the
table that the other person wants forme. And could it be implied and

(29:41):
not explicit? Absolutely, Yeah,absolutely, I think that there is.
Often in these situations it is impliedbecause everyone, Lets be honest, everyone's
not dumb. If they explicitly say, hey, you do this and then
I'll do this for you, right, they're not going to do that.
They kind of do it in passiveways. Yeah, And so yes,

(30:03):
you can be consensual in a situation. And then if you start it consensually
because again, tent since our goodgirlfriend. You can change your mind and
go, hey, this actually doesn'tfeel good, this is not actually okay.
Or you can also be in thissituation to go, wait, how
did I get here? I wasmanipulated into this situation? Right. That's

(30:25):
another thing that I don't think peopletalk about in power dynamics and mess is
like manipulation looks in so many differentways, and like you said, it
is often quite passive because the personwhen we're talking about intent, the person
knows what they're doing. The personon the receiving end might not understand it.
They might just be excited to bein that space just because. Yeah.

(30:47):
And I think this is where itgets messy and where we might lose
people because some might look at behaviorsof the person whom the survivor or the
victim, depending on how they wantto be referred in the scenario, with
that changing of the mind, thatlooking back and seeing it differently when they
were an active, energetic you know, they were in it in the beginning.

(31:11):
And so I think that's where peopleget hung up, is that it's
hard to pull back from that oncethey've made that pivot. They're like they
lost me, Like I don't believethem or their credibility is somehow compromised.
Yeah, I mean gaslighting exists fora reason, right right, right.
Also, folks, this is atip. Watch the actual film gas lighting.

(31:32):
Oh, it is a film,and that is where the term comes
from. People don't. It's likebuzz terms like oh, I'm triggered,
I'm this Yeah, but it comesfrom an actual film. So if you
need an understanding of it, golook up. I believe it is a
nineteen forties so there's two versions.Wow, But look up the actual film
so you can see gas lighting inaction. I've had people watch it go

(31:56):
oh shit, wow, I havebeen in this situation and not realize that
because those that are manipulative, thosethat use power dynamics, those that are
gas lighting are very smooth. They'revery sneaky, and we believe them for
whatever reason. And it's no shameon people. Humans want to believe other

(32:19):
humans are good. Unfortunately, shithappens and that changes for a lot.
But yes, this is how peopleend up in cults. They're not stupid,
that's a whole other thing. Butyou know, that's another set of
survivors and victims. People are verywilling to dismiss and discredit a stupid and
absolutely I'm like, no, no, that was a slow burn. They
didn't go the first day and giveover collateral like that was a long,

(32:44):
you know, coercive slow burn.How about kids? When do we start
talking to kids about consent? Imean, I'm a parent. I definitely
told my kids, you know,nobody can touch your body, nobody should
be able to look at it.These things start young, Like how do
you just people are talking about consentwith children? And how does that conversation
evolve over the years? Absolutely,megad I love this question. I think

(33:07):
we start having those conversations early.Right. I have two goddaughters and I
always talk about them my best friends, Like, did you talk about the
girls? We put it within themearly. Do you want to hug oh
yeah, yeah yeah yeah, that'syou don't want to hug them, don't
hug them? Yeah? Right,even doing that, just allowing them to

(33:29):
go, hey, would you likethis? Okay? Cool? And acknowledging
because role modeling is how children learn. So there's that your children, children
around you, young adults are alwayswatching how you also respond to things because
you are their first teachers. Andso even role modeling in other relationships around

(33:49):
you, like a partner, afriend, a family member, out whatever.
They see that and that is ateaching tool that I think people overlook.
Yes, people overlook it. Butwe have always asked them. They
are ten and eight now, butwe've asked them. Did they love it?
Absolutely not. I'd be like,let's talk about bad consent and they're
like, oh, I'm like,do it again. We're having a conversation

(34:14):
like that's fine, fine, let'stalk about it. I'm like, great,
I mean that is that is anincredible gift you've given them, honestly,
and I hope you will never haveto You would never say I told
you so, but I hope there'sno reason that you will ever be like,
that's why I did it. Butyou know, God forbid that happens.
Like they are so equipped and theywill know it when they see it.
And it's not a one time,one and done thing. It's evolving,

(34:35):
it's so active, it's moving andfluid. Yeah, that's so,
so, so good. I couldtalk about this for hours. I so
appreciate your insight and your work.Can you just tell everybody where they can
find you. I'll have it alllinked in the show notes, but just
why don't you go ahead and tellus absolutely there is only one Jiminika in

(34:57):
the world. So Jiminika on alsoInstagram if you want the things Twitter,
if you want to see me talkabout professional wrestling and nonsense and being angry.
Trauma Queen dot Love is my website. If you want to check out
my nonprofit which is focused around thosethat have been marginalized sexual assault survivors,
that is Tending the Gardens dot Love, and if you want to find out

(35:20):
about all of the work that Ido is centered around giving people voices,
allowing people to be present and showup in their own power, And I
just think it's so important and sobeautiful. It's anything that I do in
this world, I think is agift that people want to talk to me.
Who who I'm a random person talkto me right like, will seek

(35:40):
me out for support because of knowledgethat also just still safe enough to go
this happened to me. Yeah,well, I mean, y'all, it
is a big deal. I totallysee why people would want to talk to
you, though, Jiminica, You'reYou're really amazing and easy to talk to,
and your resources are so helpful,because that's what I wanted this series
to be. Just want to gossipabout what's going on. It's just so

(36:01):
easy to get into this gross rhetoricaround it. It's like, what can
we do? And so these arejust great tangible tools you're giving us also
new ways of thinking. But Idid forget to ask you my closing question,
which I ask all my guests atthe end of interviews, in your
own words, I would love tohear how you define justice. Justice is

(36:23):
being able to find peace and bepeaceful. I love that. I hope
people are able to find that well. Thank you for your work and what
you're doing to bring that, tobring that justice for survivors and victims.
And thank you so much for killinga small talk today. Thank you for
having me. Dialogue is a yellowtape media production audio engineered by Jason Ussrie

(36:50):
and produced, posted, and editedby me Rebecca Sebastian. If you love
the podcast, please consider becoming adiehard by signing up at patreon dot com
slash dialogue other ways to support theshow follow along on social media. We
are at Dialogue pod across platforms,and you can now watch most episodes on
YouTube by subscribing to my channel,Rebecca Sebastian. For more information or to

(37:13):
drop me a note, visit RebeccaSebastian dot com. Until next time,
thank you for listening and killing thesmall talk

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Jimanekia Eborn | What Does Your Safety Look Like?

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Jimanekia Eborn | What Does Your Safety Look Like?