February 6, 2023 • 40 mins
Tuesday 7th Febuary 2023
Dietetics Digest
Diverse ingredients with Dr Megan Rossi RD
Dr Megan Rossi, highlights the importance of diverse ingredients, in collaboration with PepsiCo Health & Nutrition Science. To find out more on PepsiCo’s product innovation and renovation work through the health and nutrition sciences team: www.pepsico.co.uk
Twitter / Instagram
If you enjoyed the podcast, please can you support us by:
- Write a review on Apple Podcasts.
- Follow us on social media ( Twitter / Instagram )
- Please share this podcast with a friend!
Thank you for your support!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Aaron Boysen (00:00):
Dr. Megan Rossi highlights the importance of
(00:02):
diverse ingredients incollaboration with PepsiCo
Health and Nutrition Sciences.
She's a gut health expert. Andshe's come to talk to us today
to explain that it's not justabout the total grams of fiber
you consume, but also thesources of that fiber that make
an impact on your health.
Unknown (00:17):
She is an award winning PhD in gut health who can help
you say bye bye to bloating
Dr Megan Rossi (00:24):
combining different dietary fibers
actually could make certainprebiotics less fermentable
fibers more tolerable UK basedAussie dietitian and the go to
in gut health and Dr. MeganRossi, Olympic athletes and
these people had all thesechronic conditions, we're all
coming to be complaining of theguy. Why not set up social
media? If I get like 100followers, I'd be doing more of
a service for sciencecommunication than just sitting
(00:45):
away and in my scientific worldcomplaining about the lack of
translation. Come on, let's dosomething. Are we getting
something from the super six?
You know, most days most of usaren't.
Aaron Boysen (00:56):
Dr. Megan Rossi is a world renowned gut health
expert and a registereddietician. She conducts research
into gut health at King'sCollege in London. She has been
researching and writing aboutgut health for over a decade,
and has published several bookson the subject, including her
best selling book, eat yourselfhealthy. We have a great
conversation about her career tothis date, and also about some
(01:17):
of the findings from the latestresearch on gut health. And we
learn how we can best supportour patients. So without further
ado, my name is Aaron Boysen.
This is the dietetics digestpodcast. So ensure you chew it
thoroughly as a lot to digesthere. So your career so far do
you do so many things? And youobviously have moved from
Australia to the UK and now workat King's College London? Have
(01:40):
you always wanted to be a healthexpert?
Dr Megan Rossi (01:44):
Yeah. Look, Aaron certainly when I was in my
early 20s, I didn't think I'dspent it analyzing people's poop
samples. So absolutely not, Ididn't really have any future
plans to get into gut health ITI fell into it in a way based on
a personal experience. So in myfinal year, studying nutrition
and dietetics actually lost mygrandma to bowel cancer. So
(02:05):
actually, my first consciousencounter with the guy was quite
a negative one. And I was like,God, what's going on, like,
obviously, in our degree, welearned a little bit about bowel
cancer, but not in any realdetailed level. It felt like the
mechanisms kind of were missing,we chatted a bit about bacteria,
but no one quite understood whatit was all about. So I was like
I was a bit angry at the guardFebruary through the chemo, the
(02:28):
surgery and then obviouslytaking a life. And then I
started I graduated and startedworking as a clinical dietitian,
both in the hospital settingseeing all different types of
conditions I was on the renalWard oncology did some weight
management. But also I wasactually very fortunate to also
be the nutritionist for theAustralian Olympic synchronized
swimming team. Just by chance Ifell into that. And I found it
(02:52):
so striking that all thesepeople from very different
backgrounds, so these Olympicathletes, and these people had
all these chronic conditionswere all coming to me
complaining of the gut. And Iwas like, God, what is it about
this organism? It's haunting me,and that was around 2010. So
there hadn't been a whole lot ofgut health research really come
to the forefront just started tobe a little bit more niggly in
(03:14):
the in terms of the literature,but certainly in our textbooks,
it was really lacking. And Ithought you know what I owe it
to my grandma and to my patientsto find out more about this
organ, because I feel likethere's just such a gap there.
So I embarked on a PhD, lookingat whether we could target the
gut through the right nutrition,specifically, it was a
combination of pre andprobiotics and synbiotics.
(03:34):
Looking at whether we canimprove the health of not just
things like gut symptoms, butalso things systemically like
kidney function, mental health,and it was really that PhD that
just transformed everything. Forme, I was like, wow, actually,
the gut is incredibly powerful.
And I think we've justmisunderstood it, and the way
that we treat it the way wemanage it, and I could see that
if I was ever going to have myimpact. It was going to be via
(03:57):
the gut, because it was just itwas a landmark scientific
discovery. And I was fortunateenough to really be at the
forefront of that research. Soit was really Yeah, that PhD and
then I was like, obviously wantto continue in the research
field and contributes I lookedaround the world who was doing
the most innovative gut healthresearch. And it was King's
College in London. So Iessentially begged Professor
(04:20):
Whelan, I think a lot oflisteners will know who he is
for a job. And interestinglyenough, I think just a bit of a
side note, but I actually didn'tget the job I applied for at
Kings. So if you get kind ofknocked down, don't worry, just
you know, build your resilience.
And actually, I was fortunateenough then for him to say, you
know, you didn't get that job,but you know, I think you could
(04:41):
be really good at in this otherarea. And, and so yeah, he gave
me that opportunity. And yeah,so I just moved over by by kind
of that job offering I never abit bit ignorant in Australia,
typically in terms of travelingoverseas, no ambition at all
growing up. And so I was justlike, Yeah, I'll do it for A
year fine. And then yeah, theresearch opportunities in the UK
(05:03):
for nutrition based research isjust unbelievable at the moment.
So I got stuck here based onlike amazing research grants
that we
Aaron Boysen (05:11):
got. We're happy to have you as well done
Professor Whelan good choice.
Probably, yeah, we could arguewhether he should have picked
your first or not, but I'm surethat was a great candidate as
well. So, but I wanted to askwhat have you What have you done
in that role? So far? It wasobviously back in 2010. It's now
2023. When we're recording this,what have you been able to do in
that role in that in the 13years?
Dr Megan Rossi (05:33):
Yeah, so I actually didn't move over to
2015. So 2010, when it was whenI embarked on my PhD, so then
moved over 2015. And here myfirst research grant was for the
MRC for Medical ResearchCouncil, where we were looking
at whether different types ofdietary fibers could actually
help people with irritable bowelsyndrome. So we know as
(05:54):
dieticians that a lot of peoplewho have IBS, they have a very
hypersensitive gut to fiber andbacterial fermentation, what we
wanted to understand is whetherwe combine different fibers,
whether that would actually makethem more tolerable in the gut,
and sweet and amazing, so weliterally still haven't
published the final paper forthat, which just highlights how
(06:15):
long research takes to get topublication stage. But they've
done amazing pilot studies totest things as well as MRI
studies, which essentially iswhere it's like my favorite type
of research, we've collaboratedwith some colleagues in
Nottingham, where we feedvolunteers, different types of
fibers, and we have thisfunctional MRI scan of their gut
looking at colonic gasproduction, like how much gas is
(06:37):
being produced, how much fluidis being drawn in there, and
then correlate that withpeople's symptoms. And from that
MRI work, we show that actuallycombining different dietary
fibers actually could makecertain prebiotics, less
fermentable fibers moretolerable in this cohort,
because we know with IBS, thatif we learn up on prebiotics, I
can get more gut symptoms, butwe know that also freemax are so
(06:58):
beneficial. And perhaps if wefeed people with IBS,
prebiotics, we can actually helpresolve their IBS we needed to
kind of overcome the symptomsside of things. And then we've
moved that into a clinical trialactually international one. So
we collaborate with Mexico aswell. So they recruited half the
participants. Yeah, thatresearch is being written up at
the moment.
Aaron Boysen (07:18):
Sounds very, very exciting. I mean, could you just
clarify for the audience what aprebiotic is?
Dr Megan Rossi (07:22):
Yeah, absolutely. So prebiotic,
essentially, is a fertilizer forour good gut bacteria, because
they're mostly types of fiber.
But actually, the definition ofa prebiotic has recently been
updated to include not justtypes of fibers, other types of
plant chemicals. There's othertypes of phytochemicals, which
can also have benefits. Andprebiotics are in so many of our
foods that are readilyaccessible. In fact, legumes and
I'm sure we'll talk more aboutthem, because they're one of my
(07:44):
favorite plant categories thatare made because they're just
such powerhouses that are reallyaccessible. And they're actually
one of the best sources ofdietary prebiotics.
Aaron Boysen (07:55):
It sounds like you've done quite a bit of work.
And obviously, it takes time toget things written up and stuff
within academia. However, youdon't just work at King's
College London, you also do afew other things, too. So
you're, you've got quite a largefollowing on your website,
social media channels, you'vegot your own clinic, you also a
columnist at the Mail on Sunday.
Did you see your career goingdown this path and doing so many
(08:15):
things? Or did you fall into it?
Dr Megan Rossi (08:18):
Yeah, no, not at all. I was very much in my head,
a researcher. But it wasprobably about about, yeah,
about a year, I would sayworking at Kings as a research
fellow, and loving workingthere, loving the research. But
you know, I just have to getfrustrated, essentially, that
despite the amazing work thatwas being done, it wasn't being
translated. And actually, ittook so long to translate some
(08:41):
of the things that we knew,right? Like I just said, seven
years, and we saw them on theirlandmark paper for it. So I
thought, you know, what, how canI do my bit for science
communication? How can I helptranslate some of these key
concepts more effectively orefficiently? So I thought, You
know what, why not set up socialmedia. If I get like 100
followers, I'd be doing more ofa service for science
(09:02):
communication than just sittingaway. And in my scientific
world, complaining about thelack of translation. Come on,
let's do something good. I'lltry to anyway. So yep, so that's
social media didn't expect muchat all. But I think it was just
really good timing in terms ofhow salad came out in the media
more, and people were lookingfor a credible source of
information to try to get theirheads around what was happening
(09:24):
in terms of this landmarkscientific discovery. So yeah,
it was it was great timing. And,yeah, in terms of the gut health
clinic, I always continuedworking as a clinician so even
as a research I always did someprivate practice because, you
know, every each their own but Ialways felt it made my research
more relevant because I waskeeping my hand and
(09:44):
understanding what people whatissues people were faced with
and what they're experiencing.
So yeah, it's just throughdemand in terms of people like
I've got an issue. I really needsome support. So yeah, I felt
that when I started workingHolly street which can be
incredibly dodgy. And I waslike, You know what, there's not
enough qualified clinicianshere. And people were going to
(10:06):
like, crazy unqualifiednutritionists and all this sort
of stuff. And on crazysupplements winning so much on
these crazy tests, I thought Ineed to bring kind of
credibility to this area. Soyeah, brought from my team from
Kings who also clinicians, andyeah, now we've grown to about
10 of us.
Aaron Boysen (10:23):
I personally, I'm going to be honest with you,
when I've got so many differentthings to focus on. It's hard to
sometimes manage it all. How doyou sounds like a cliche? Sounds
like such a cliche question.
Basically, what what sort of, sothere might be other dieticians
who are interested in ornutritionist who are interested
in do going down a similar pathand doing loads of different
things? Is there any suggestionsyou would make to them? Or
(10:45):
things they need to considerbefore they go down that route?
Dr Megan Rossi (10:49):
Yeah, look, I think I am really happy, I had
quite a strong, like clinicalFoundation, because I do have a
few students that I mentor fromdietetics. And they're just so
keen to get into a sciencecommunication or start their own
clinic. And they lack thatinitial foundation of that
hardcore clinical expertise thatyou learn on the job I take
degrees, I think are great, butthey don't give you that hands
(11:11):
on experience. So I was reallyhappy that I had like the four
years really to solidify mySpaceX skills, I think that's
probably an important one. Andthen in terms of juggling
different things, for me, it'steam like having a brilliant
team, I certainly am not theonly the only one that's the
girl doctor or the girl clinic,I have a brilliant team that I
can really trust. And I know weshare the same passion and goals
(11:32):
to empower everyone withevidence based practice and
support. So yeah, for me, makingsure you've got a supportive
group of colleagues around you.
Aaron Boysen (11:42):
Definitely, I'd say the team or just people not
necessarily to support you, butalmost to motivate you as well,
and push you forward and see newopportunities and things like
that, I definitely mirror that.
I'm going to be honest with you.
Now, in regards to gut healthand things like that, when I
talked to lots of dieticians,mostly work within the National
Health Service, the NHS. We knowgut health is important. And you
(12:03):
can say it all day gut health isreally important and things like
that. But most the time in theirconsultations, they might not be
thinking about gut health,they're thinking about the
nutritional problem, and howthey can solve that problem. Or
it could be poor nutritionalintake, excessive nutritional
intake, it could be possiblyworking on more specialist diet,
do you think it's important toactually still think about gut
health within that patientcohort? Or is this just from
(12:24):
people to people on the street?
Would you say who don't have anyother problems?
Dr Megan Rossi (12:28):
Yeah, and that's a really great question. And I
completely understand when youare a full time clinician to
keep on top of this researchthat literally is churning over
every week, new things that comeinto the forefront, it can be
really hard to keep on top ofit. So I completely understand
from that side. But like you'vesaid, it is actually quite
important, or that you've askedit is quite important, because
(12:50):
it's kind of fundamental shiftinto the power of nutrition, I
actually wrote a great paper forthe British nutrition
foundation, I think it was 2019,where it go through it's like
nutrition in new lattice. Imean, anyway, we can link it to
the to the show notes ifhelpful. But the paper kind of
explains the concept that wealways knew that nutrition had
(13:10):
an impact on human health, likewe always knew that through
human metabolism, food could bereally powerful. But through the
discovery of our gut microbiota,these trillions of micro
organisms, we've now discovereda new pathway to which food is
impacting human health. It's notjust through human metabolism,
it's through microbialmetabolism. And this is rebirth,
(13:30):
this array of understanding andmechanisms to how food can
really have these far reachinghealth benefits. For example,
things like plant diversity,which I'm sure we'll talk into
as concepts, but historically,as nutritionists, dieticians
feel like, it doesn't reallymatter, as long as they're
getting their 30 grams of fiberin who cares at the source,
right? But actually wouldn'tbecause of the microbiome, it's
(13:53):
opened up this new mechanism,this new understanding that each
different fiber functionallyfeeds different micro organisms,
and therefore we need thatdiversity to have the optimal
health outcomes. So actually, ithas really, I think, changed,
you know, as a profession, ourperception of how powerful food
can be. So it actually shouldstart to be integrated, I think,
(14:15):
into all of our understandingsof, of, you know, the power of
nutrition, whether you'retreating or managing, you know,
cancer patients or osteoporosis.
You know, for example, we knowthat prebiotics, when we spoke
with the fertilizers, the gut,gut bacteria, actually caught
administration of them withcalcium increases calcium
absorption our body. So, youknow, there is a lot to say, for
(14:38):
the mechanisms underpinning, Iguess, you know, nutrition or
therapeutic nutrition, you know,via the gut microbiome.
Aaron Boysen (14:49):
Yeah, so it should be thought about as well as the
nutritional problem in thebackground, at least as a
concept and we need to ensurethat we're actually fostering
people's good gut health withthose diverse ingredients now,
what sort of benefits can comefrom having diverse ingredients,
particularly talking aboutdiverse fibres? And not just
hitting that 30 gram a daylimit?
Dr Megan Rossi (15:08):
Yeah, look, well, we know most of us are
getting less than 20 grams. Sowe do have a while to get to the
30. In terms of, of those 30grams, the source has become
really quite important. Sothere's been some really great
research done by many differentgroups out there now starting to
look at the health benefits ofdifferent types of fiber based
(15:29):
on this one systematic reviewlooked at the benefit of I
think, of dietary fiber, but oncolon cancer risk, and they
showed for every 10 gramsincrease in total fiber, you
decrease your risk of coloncancer by 10%. A lot of us have
heard that before. But what theythen did is looked at the source
of fiber, and they looked atWhole grain fiber and showed
that for every 10 grams increasein wholegrain. Fiber, they were
(15:51):
having a 10% decrease in coloncancer, but then they looked at
fiber from fruit. And they foundthat that fiber from fruit
didn't seem to have thatprotective effect on colon
cancer, unlike the whole grainfiber. Now, that's certainly not
to say that whole grain fiber isany more beneficial than the
fiber fruit, or the veggiesorry, the fiber from Veg or
fiber from fruit, but highlightsmechanistically, they do
(16:14):
different things. Because weknow that actually the fruit
have got all these otherphytochemicals, which can be
really protective against othertypes of cancer. So I think
we're starting to appreciatethat each different kind of
category. And even subspecies ofplant has a array of different
benefits. A lot of thosebenefits come from feeding
different types of microorganisms, which essentially do
(16:35):
different things. They senddifferent messages throughout
the body that can protect usagainst, you know, different
types of sort of, you know,source of inflammation, but as
well as things like, you know,mutations types of cancers.
Aaron Boysen (16:50):
Awesome.
Definitely, I think so whatyou're saying is, basically, it
doesn't, it's not just about the30 gram in that 30 gram limit
from whatever source possible,it's actually about where that
comes from, and diversifyingthose ingredients just as much
as just hitting that thresholdcap. So you could argue that
sometimes the fiber supplementsor things like psyllium husk and
things like that, possiblywouldn't have a lot of the same
(17:12):
benefits. Or if they're not partof a diverse diet, they wouldn't
have those benefits. Is thatcorrect? Yeah,
Dr Megan Rossi (17:20):
essentially, each the fibers are doing
things, different things. So weactually know that psyllium husk
is incredibly helpful forconstipation, because it's a
unique fiber that gets hydratesin the colon, and therefore has
that luxating effect. But theinteresting thing about psyllium
husk because this is one of thefibers that we were researching,
is that the bacteria can'tferment it. So very poorly
(17:41):
fermented, which is why actuallyit's well tolerated. And people
with more sensitive guts likeIBS, because there's no gas
formed. So actually, it doesn'treally feed the gut bacteria,
it's got more of a functionalkind of an effect on the kind of
the muscles of the gut versusthe mechanism of actually
nourishing and feeding bacteria,which then produce things like
the short chain fatty acids,which communicate with the rest
of our body to look after us. Soabsolutely right, in terms of
(18:03):
the different fibers are doingdifferent things. And that's
what you may have heard, wetalked about the Super six for
fall. So there's six differentplant based food categories. And
I'm a big advocate that peoplereally try and focus on having
something from the super sixmost days where they can, Erin,
I'm going to put you on the spothere. What are the super six?
How much research have you beendoing?
Aaron Boysen (18:26):
The Super six, in what?
Dr Megan Rossi (18:29):
plant based food groups? Okay, I'll start whole
grains, whole
Aaron Boysen (18:34):
grains, would you say beans and legumes?
Absolutely. green leafyvegetables,
Dr Megan Rossi (18:38):
just veggies in general, as other
Aaron Boysen (18:41):
fruits be its own category? Absolutely.
We've already said whole grains.
Got some seeds, herbs andspices, herbs and spices. But
there's a six different
Dr Megan Rossi (18:51):
categories. And I think it's important we start
to try things in our own diets.
Are we getting something fromthe super sex? You know, most
days? Most of us aren't, we'reactually cutting out complete
food groups that we knowactually have unique benefits.
And one of the most common ones,which a lot of studies have
highlighted is the legume group,in terms of a lot of the data
from the 2015 have shown thatmost of us don't need any
(19:15):
legumes at all.
Aaron Boysen (19:19):
Yeah, I think definitely, you've shown that I
probably aren't as aware of theSuperSix as I should be. And I
should probably increase theamount of particularly I should
focus on SuperSix. Definitely.
There you go there. I've learnedsomething from this podcast, at
least obviously, your work atKing's College is definitely
academic and you look at thingsfrom an academic perspective. It
takes time because there's lotsof rigor and peer review
involved within those thatresearch. What recent research
(19:41):
studies have you seen thatparticularly impactful in terms
of the ways of healthcareprofessionals on the ground,
view the importance of thesediverse ingredients? Yeah,
absolutely.
Dr Megan Rossi (19:52):
I think one of my favorite studies I think can
be quite powerful on publichealth perspective was published
in Lancet 2009. I think and whatthey showed was a systematic
review. And they showed that forevery eight grams of fiber
increase per day, we couldreduce our risk of heart disease
by 19%, our risk of type twodiabetes by 15%, and risk of
(20:14):
colon cancer by about 8%. Andthat was just that eight grams
of fiber. So what I love helpingpatients to cleanse unscented is
eight grams of fiber isliterally like a cup of beans,
that's eight grams of fiber. Addthat to your your Indian
takeaway, if you're having thatfor dinner, or to your Bolognese
that's quite accessible and easyfor most people do. So
highlighting that yeah, or, youknow, some veggie sticks and
(20:37):
some hummus, another eight gramsof fat. So eight grams of fiber
is really attainable. So I thinkfor clinicians, as well as
understanding that these smallchanges to people's diets can
actually have quite significantimprovements on their risk of
these really common chronicconditions. And then there was
also more for kind of, I guess,the world category, looking at
people who want to increaselongevity, a paper published by
(21:00):
University of Bergen last year.
And what they did is looked athow we could extend lives. And
they showed that we could extendlives by up to a decade by
changing tweaking your diet insome sort of way. And what they
showed was the biggestcontributor in terms of he
looked at the supersets and theyshowed that adding legumes,
beans and pulses into people'sdiets could increase your
(21:20):
longevity by two and a halfyears, which is quite
significant. And that was andthen it was under that was whole
grains, then nuts in terms of Ithink wholegrains might have
been like too quick, two years,adding nuts to your diet, daily
diet was like 1.9 years orsomething like that. So they did
it like that. And so it was areally nice way to see again,
the importance of getting thatdiverse range of plants into
(21:41):
people's diets for that, youknow, longevity, I mean, we all
want to live longer and happierand healthier, right? So
Aaron Boysen (21:50):
definitely sounds like I can understand why you
like beans and pulses. So if youwant to pick a hierarchy of the
super six, the leader isdefinitely lead by impulses. But
Dr Megan Rossi (21:59):
the reason for that is not necessarily because
they're more powerful than theothers. It's because we've
missed them out. There's beenthis like, kind of push away
from them. So it's the easiestwins because we're having so
little of them.
Aaron Boysen (22:13):
I definitely think historically there was
definitely a push away fromthem. I do think recently,
particularly with younger, moresort of health savvy consumers,
they've been a bit more and muchmore diet literate, influenced
by evidence based professionalsgetting online, whether it be
dieticians, nutritionistsgetting online and sharing a
message. Rarely. Would you saythat the interest in the subject
of diverse ingredients from anacademic perspective and a
(22:35):
clinical perspective, has spedup over the last five to 10
years, obviously, back in 2015.
King's College were steamingahead and probably pioneers in
this area. But would you say theothers are catching up in the
area? And there's lots moreinterest in this field
academically?
Dr Megan Rossi (22:49):
Yeah, look, absolutely, I would say probably
not 510. I would say in the pasttwo years, the interest has
really grown in terms of thisconcept and this mechanistic
understanding of, of whydiversity is important. So we're
like, Okay, now we get it webecause it's nourishing the
different micro organisms. Sonow we need to match the measure
the clinical impact of it. Yeah,absolutely. It's a great example
(23:13):
of I think how public'sinterest, and even food industry
for that matter, in terms ofreally integrating this concept
of ASD into the food supply ismade the academic world go Oh,
actually, yeah, let's reallystart to measure this and look
in more detail about how it'sall working.
Aaron Boysen (23:32):
I think particularly when you think
about the You've mentioned a lotof the physical health benefits
of adding extra fiber to yourdiet, but I remember when I was
at a New Scientist conference,you were talking about the other
benefits to having adding extrafiber to your diet. Do you mind
discussing those the audiencecuz I don't always think people
think about those benefits.
Dr Megan Rossi (23:49):
Yeah, which are incredibly important.
Specifically, things like mentalhealth, because the stats show
that one in four of us everysingle year will have some sort
of mental health event. It'ssomething that affects so many
people yet, I don't thinknutritionally. We chat about the
power of it that much. And Iunderstand this landmark study
paper coming out in 2017. Beforethat, I was really nervous to
(24:11):
ever promise that nutritioncould help with a mental health
condition. I thought, maybe alittle bit I didn't want to
overstep the line, but there'samazing paper, the smiles trials
for those who haven't read it,do check it out by Felice
jackers group in Australiaactually. And all good things
come from Australia and it wasamazing paper and it gave me
(24:31):
confidence as a clinician thatactually I could start to say,
You know what, if you nourishyour gut through a really loads
of plants, not just plants onlyI think that's probably a myth
that's started to penetrate butit was a Mediterranean diet. So
pretty much included the supersix most days with fermented
dairy, oily fish and things likethat. And what they showed is
that following this way ofeating for 12 weeks, and people
(24:54):
had moderate severe depressionactually resulted I think it's
like a 32% improvement andpeople's know If, at the end of
those 12 weeks 32% of thoseparticipants had such a
significant improvement in theirmental health scores, that they
would have been medicallyclassified as no longer
clinically depressed based onthe questionnaires that they
used. And that was just bychanging their diet was
(25:14):
incredibly powerful. And Ialways like to caution that
everyone stayed on their theirmedications, that antidepressant
medication. So if anyone'slistening to this, I'm certainly
would never say, you know, ditchthe medications go cold turkey,
but it just shows it as anadjunct therapy, diet can be
incredibly powerful. Andcertainly in my own clinical
practice. Since that papers comeout, I've now worked with
(25:35):
psychiatrists actually get somepatients who really want to come
off their medications completelyoff them, just by focusing on
diet, obviously, that's aprocess and you need to make
sure it's put the support of ofpsychiatrists or the prescribing
doctor, we've got the data toback up how powerful dietary
approach can be.
Aaron Boysen (25:51):
Definitely. And I think, obviously, there's lots
more research to do. But there'sso many things about the gut
that we don't fully understandyet the impacts of whole
ingredients and things likethat. And I think as time goes
on, we're definitely discoveringthat actually. It's not just
about the macronutrients, he'snot just talking about the
macronutrient and micronutrientbox, actually, the impact the
(26:12):
whole food has on our digestivesystem on our overall health is
what gives us the benefit, notnecessarily the sort of tick box
ingredient, however much wesometimes wish is clinical
dietitians. It was just a tickbox ingredient. And I'm sure
there's lots of people love thatlove to package up something
that actually is the foods thatwe need to nourish and build our
bodies to be healthier. Now,back at the beginning of the
(26:34):
podcast, we mentioned thegovernment recommendations
around 30 grams per day, yousaid that most people are not
achieving that they're maybehitting around 20 grams per day.
Now, you've mentioned a figureboth in your talk, but in your
book, or 50 grams per day formaximum maximal benefit. Would
you say now, I don't think I'malone in sight. I don't think
I'm the only one alone in sayingthis. But most people would
(26:56):
really struggle to that. Howwould you support patients to
come closer to this target?
Dr Megan Rossi (27:01):
No, absolutely.
I think that's a really greatquestion. Now, the 50 grams that
I typically recommend have comefrom that smiles trial. So
remember, I said these peoplehad moderate to severe
depression and their diet thekind of Mediterranean diet was
gave provided them 50 grams offiber a day. Now actually, I
know it sounds like a lot, butit's really doable in terms of
getting in 50 grams of fiber aday. It's just like little
(27:23):
tweaks in your diet. So like thelegumes, for example, cup of
them contains 10 grams of fiber,that's 1/3 Like just done sorted
for snacks, I think is a reallyunderrated opportunity. And one
pair contains like five grams offiber, one tablespoon of
linseeds contains three and ahalf grams of fiber, I think
we're gonna be having breakfast,sprinkle them across, or if
(27:44):
you're having some soup,sprinkle some wooden seeds in
it. It's just those littletweaks we can make to whatever
we're eating. And if you have apolonaise for dinner, cut out
half the minutes, replace itwith a can of tin lentils, stuff
like that, again, you're goingto get an extra 10 grams it and
you know what, like a lot of therecipes that I would make they
contain at least 15 grams offiber per serve. Now, of course,
(28:06):
if someone is really sick, andthey've got a really poor
appetite, then of course, it'sgoing to be difficult to get
that volume of food in. Butactually the vast majority of
people I see in clinic, they caneasily achieve the 50 grams of
fiber. Of course, we never wouldwant someone to go from 20 grams
to 50 grams, even in a monththat would take around three
months for the gut to adjust andreally be able to learn to
(28:28):
metabolize all the differenttypes of fiber they're getting
so slow and steady definitelywins the race. But it's more
easy. Oh, it's easier than Ithink we think if you hear that
50 numbers, oh my God, that'scrazy. But whenever you have
like porridge greater Khairuddingreat, some kojedal and that
adds an extra three grams offiber or something to a bowl of
porridge, which already containsabout eight grams, little things
(28:50):
like that actually really add upto making the 50 grams really
achievable. Or you know what ifyou're at 20 grams, let's just
start with aiming for your 30grams. Let's be really
realistic, I think of whereyou're at.
Aaron Boysen (29:04):
I think one other thing that I've also started
using quite recently implementedin my diet, should we say think
about a meal you might havemeeting, I haven't fully
convinced myself to go fullymeat, I go fully meat free on
some meals. But sometimes I liketo still have that sort of
experience in my life. So I addin say, for a curry I go, let's
have a killer chickpeas into acurry that already has meat,
(29:25):
split it in half, save a bit ofthe money on the meat and also
including increase the diversityof the fibers and things like
that. I think that's Would yousay that's a good option and
thinking about different waysyou can do that, as you say
mentioned about bolognese?
Dr Megan Rossi (29:37):
Absolutely. I think that's a perfect example.
And I think we know that 100%plant base is not necessarily
healthier. Like I understandenvironmental and cultural
reasons why someone wants to dothat. But certainly going 100%
plant based doesn't mean thatyou're healthier or have better
gut health than someone who's anomnivore and also eat some
animal foods as well. So I thinkthat you know, it's not the
(29:58):
extreme diets. Some that maybewe hear on social media are
healthier. It's not necessarilytrue. But again, there's so many
examples. And you know, ifyou're having, you know,
takeaway, unlike Yeah,absolutely, I personally have
takeaway, I'll have pizza. Butwhat I do is when I have my
pizza, I usually get like a canof mixed beans, I find the CANS
because they're just soaccessible and easy, you know,
they cost like ADP, and youknow, it just quickly rinse it
(30:21):
already cooked. And then I addon top of my pizza, you know,
and it's a great way again, toget extra 10 grams of fiber to
my pizza that I'm having. Soit's just those ways of just
tweaking your diets rather thanhaving to have this crazy
overhaul of like, oh, I nevereat takeaway and stuff like
that, which is not realistic formost people.
Aaron Boysen (30:38):
Yeah, so it's a lovely approach of just adding
to the diet instead of takingaway and banning certain things.
And I think when, obviously,we're coming to the end of
January now, but actually, whenthinking about New Year's
resolutions, probably a betterapproach will be to think about
adding things rather than takingaway actually, how can I add the
SuperSix into my day, everysingle day, can I put beans in
this meal lentils in this mealnuts in this one chickpeas in
(31:01):
this one, however many, manyways that you can cook it and I
think that's such a nice way tothink about it. But there's one
thing I think about when I thinkabout so I've spent most of my
career working within the NHS,working with patients that are
wide variety of patients to behonest. And sometimes I feel
like these nice meals that Imight have come from my own
home, or the ones I see onInstagram, with some beans,
(31:25):
chickpeas are not alwaysaccessible to those who don't
have good good cooking skillshave poor cooking confidence, or
due to other circumstances suchas disability or unable to cook
for example, it might be anelderly gentleman who possibly
his wife passed away and shecooked a lot of the meals. How
would you recommend what wouldyou recommend to these kinds of
patient cohorts in increasingtheir fiber intake?
Dr Megan Rossi (31:47):
Yeah, look, I think the bean example a can of
lentils, mixed beans, it's sucha perfect opportunity for that
because they don't need to cookit even if they're having
takeaway. They can add that init's like a really easy win. But
also I love the fact that Iguess food industry is starting
support this concept ofincreasing plant diversity
increasing fiber I know thatthere is a leading retailer at
(32:09):
the moment looking to try tointegrate more things like fava
beans and other types of legumesinto some of their base recipes.
So I do hope that food industryreally can support those sorts
of populations. But I thinkyeah, it's also comes back to
thinking about those easy winsif they can't cook you don't
need to cook legumes in thetinned version. It's already
done just get the ones withoutany sort of flavor. Just get the
(32:31):
ones and water and stuff likethat. And yeah, and it's easy
when
Aaron Boysen (32:34):
I've even seen like really font like on the
other opposite end of thespectrum really fancy beans
cooked in like special. Brian, Ithink it's definitely becoming
more popular all the rage. Now.
I think I saw a stat from Ithink it was one of these
research institutes I think itwas your own motor into it,
nothing to do with cars. Butyour emotions national said that
it was going up to 22%, I thinkor 25% in 2020 27. I think it's
definitely increasing. What doyou think the real pushes among
(32:59):
the general population? Or is itthis research? Or is it other
things as well,
Dr Megan Rossi (33:04):
I think it is the health that's a feeding down
from the media. So obviously,the research has to be done to
highlight the good source ofprebiotic and gut health is very
on trend. So I think people, ifthey can see that there is a gut
health benefit of somethingthat's actually really low cost,
particularly in this kind ofeconomic climate, then people
like Hell yeah, I'm gonna jumpfor that it's really accessible.
(33:25):
So I think there is that thatbenefit of the media, educating
the wider public around thehealth benefits of legumes. And
then also, of course, I thinkfood industry making it
accessible. They're putting itin foods that I think consumers
are, they have already accepted.
So if you add some legumes intolike a pasture dish that's pre
packaged, people are like, Oh,that's new, but I liked the
(33:47):
pasture. So maybe I'll try it.
And then they go, Oh, actually,I really like it. Whereas there
might have been put off by thefact of having to buy a whole
can of it. So food industry ofjust slowly starting to
integrate legumes I think hashas paid off and people's
acceptance of it.
Aaron Boysen (34:02):
Yeah. and adapt.
Obviously, people say they'renot influenced by marketing or
influenced by brand messages.
However, I do think having thebrand's almost make it appealing
and almost sexy brings peopleinto those health benefits. So
it's almost using theirmarketing to push those health
benefits to people as well.
Because I remember some of thesebeans you've mentioned today,
(34:22):
probably a couple of years ago,you'd have to go to a really
nice supermarket, you'd go intothe supermarket, get the beans
off the shelf, they'll be dried,but actually the fact that being
incorporated now I think makesit a lot more accessible for a
lot of the cohorts that we'vementioned, and lets them try new
things as well.
Dr Megan Rossi (34:38):
Yeah, no, absolutely, I think plays a key
role.
Aaron Boysen (34:43):
And so we've touched on, we're focused on
using a plant based diet toimprove gut health. Now, are
there any other ways we canimprove gut health that aren't
dietary approaches?
Dr Megan Rossi (34:54):
I look absolutely. I think that's a
really good point. And asdietitians we usually do touch
on lifestyle factors. So I thinkit is Part of our kind of
toolkit or repertoire toactually look at these non
dietary approaches to improvinggut health, and I think most
dietitians are aware, but Ialways like to just highlight
whenever I say the word plantbased, I don't mean plants only,
it's that it's based on plants,majority plants, but actually,
(35:16):
you can absolutely add animalfoods in there if you want to,
it's the plants only that kindof people really associate. So
just I like to always make surethat it's clarified with people
I'm not advocating, we'll goplant so and then in terms of
these non dietary approaches,yeah, so we know that there's
three other key pillars. Sowe've got the stress, we know
that independent of diet, stresscan trigger gut issues, like the
(35:39):
symptoms, bloating,constipation, diarrhea, etc. But
also it has seemed to have thisimpact on the diversity of our
gut bacteria. And we certainlysee that a diverse range of gut
bacteria is associated withbetter overall outcomes, a
better gut health, but themental health, the heart health.
So there's this concept ofdiversity not only in the food
we eat, but in the types ofbacteria that live in our gut is
(36:00):
associated with the healthbenefits. So stress, 10 minutes
of mindfulness each day, if wecan, those sorts of things
actually can have quitemeasurable impacts on people's
gut health, sleep, we're alwaysbang on of the seven to nine
hours. But actually, again,independent of diet, a lack of
sleep has been shown to reducedown the diversity of gut
bacteria. But also it works bothways. It seems to be bi
(36:22):
directional, where actually, ifyou don't have good gut health,
it should also impact yoursleep. And then the third pillar
outside of diet is movement. Soagain, independent of diet, so
people stay on their diets, butactually, they start moving
their bodies more three days aweek, some sort of high
intensity, or moderate intensityactually, exercise that
actually, again, has been shownto increase the diversity of
(36:44):
their gut bacteria. Yeah, Iknow, it's concepts, I guess, as
dietitians their lifestyle,blah, blah, sleep pre stress
move, but actually, we nowunderstand mechanistically. So
there are of course, thepatients they see in clinic
clients, and they say, Look, Ijust want to focus on my diet,
because I can control it mucheasier. And I'm like, I get it.
But you know, how does matterhow perfect how that boosting
(37:08):
your data is, if you don't fixthose other three domains,
you're not going to really reapall those health benefits you
can achieve from look at health.
So boringly, we do need to lookat those other areas as well.
Aaron Boysen (37:19):
Yeah. And it just shows that holistic approach,
the longer time take, the longerwe move on, actually shows that
it's, there's more thateverything is just more than the
sum of its parts, you can't justfocus on one thing, it is very
much that holistic approach. AndI think as dietitians, we need
to understand that andacknowledge that and actually
(37:40):
think about where the patient iswhat they need to do, and what
they need to focus on. Becauseas you said, if they don't, you
know, sort out stress or thingslike that, a lot of other
dietary changes might not be asimpactful as if you're able to
sort out but I do, I do sort ofempathize with your clients or
patients, that actually it's alot easier to control what you
(38:00):
you eat, rather than the stressyou have, which often comes from
external factors. And also theway we respond to these external
factors, which aren't alwaysconscious. I think it can often
be it's not the easy answer.
It's not that it's quite asimple answer, but it's
definitely not easy to put intoaction.
Dr Megan Rossi (38:17):
Yeah, absolutely not. And I think again, like as
dieticians, we do need, we don'tnecessarily get the training at
university. But we do need tothink about, you know, what are
some evidence based quick hacks,we can add on to people's diets
to deal with the sleep issues todeal with that the lack of
exercise to deal with thestress. And, you know, there is
now pretty good research outthere highlighting, you know,
(38:39):
some sleep hygiene techniques.
So my colleagues from Kingsactually did a really great
clinical trial, showing howpeople followed these nine sleep
hygiene strategies, they putthem on this kind of cohort, I
think it was for like, eightweeks or something. If they
followed those nine sleephygiene techniques, they
(38:59):
actually had significantlyimproved sleep quality, compared
to those who just got told tosleep more. So you know, there
are a lot of strategies outthere that we know are evidence
base that can add extra, youknow, sleep quality, as well as
duration by just making thosethose small tweaks. So it is I
think, important that we don'tjust fixate on diet as
(39:20):
dietitians to look at that wholepicture.
Aaron Boysen (39:24):
Definitely. And I think on that note, I think I
think we should take away thethings you've said today about
the holistic approach, but alsothose super six and I will put
the super six in the show notesand Megan is not allowed to tell
me what the super six are I haveto sort of put them in the show
notes and then she can obviouslyreview it and see if I'm right
(39:46):
or not or everyone else canreview it and see if I'm right
or not, but hopefully it will itwill be able to grasp the
messages and re listen to therecording, do the editing but
thank you so much for your timetoday. Thank you for your help
for your Inspirational sort ofyourself and the things you've
done within your career, theknowledge that you've shared
with people who might be havinggut issues, but also the
(40:09):
knowledge that you've given metoday and things I need to work
on to improve my own gut health.
And hopefully the audience hasgot it too. And they're going to
sort of digest on that and moveforward.
Dr Megan Rossi (40:18):
Yeah, look, it's absolute pleasure. I love
sharing the science and helpingpeople feel more empowered to
make the decision that's rightfor them, right. No one's got
the perfect diet. But if youcould make a small little tweak,
and know what's going to improvenot just how you feel
physically, but emotionally aswell, I think it's quite a
convincing case.
Dr. Megan Rossi highlights the importance of
(00:02):
diverse ingredients incollaboration with PepsiCo
Health and Nutrition Sciences.
She's a gut health expert. Andshe's come to talk to us today
to explain that it's not justabout the total grams of fiber
you consume, but also thesources of that fiber that make
an impact on your health.
Unknown (00:17):
She is an award winning PhD in gut health who can help
you say bye bye to bloating
Dr Megan Rossi (00:24):
combining different dietary fibers
actually could make certainprebiotics less fermentable
fibers more tolerable UK basedAussie dietitian and the go to
in gut health and Dr. MeganRossi, Olympic athletes and
these people had all thesechronic conditions, we're all
coming to be complaining of theguy. Why not set up social
media? If I get like 100followers, I'd be doing more of
a service for sciencecommunication than just sitting
(00:45):
away and in my scientific worldcomplaining about the lack of
translation. Come on, let's dosomething. Are we getting
something from the super six?
You know, most days most of usaren't.
Aaron Boysen (00:56):
Dr. Megan Rossi is a world renowned gut health
expert and a registereddietician. She conducts research
into gut health at King'sCollege in London. She has been
researching and writing aboutgut health for over a decade,
and has published several bookson the subject, including her
best selling book, eat yourselfhealthy. We have a great
conversation about her career tothis date, and also about some
(01:17):
of the findings from the latestresearch on gut health. And we
learn how we can best supportour patients. So without further
ado, my name is Aaron Boysen.
This is the dietetics digestpodcast. So ensure you chew it
thoroughly as a lot to digesthere. So your career so far do
you do so many things? And youobviously have moved from
Australia to the UK and now workat King's College London? Have
(01:40):
you always wanted to be a healthexpert?
Dr Megan Rossi (01:44):
Yeah. Look, Aaron certainly when I was in my
early 20s, I didn't think I'dspent it analyzing people's poop
samples. So absolutely not, Ididn't really have any future
plans to get into gut health ITI fell into it in a way based on
a personal experience. So in myfinal year, studying nutrition
and dietetics actually lost mygrandma to bowel cancer. So
(02:05):
actually, my first consciousencounter with the guy was quite
a negative one. And I was like,God, what's going on, like,
obviously, in our degree, welearned a little bit about bowel
cancer, but not in any realdetailed level. It felt like the
mechanisms kind of were missing,we chatted a bit about bacteria,
but no one quite understood whatit was all about. So I was like
I was a bit angry at the guardFebruary through the chemo, the
(02:28):
surgery and then obviouslytaking a life. And then I
started I graduated and startedworking as a clinical dietitian,
both in the hospital settingseeing all different types of
conditions I was on the renalWard oncology did some weight
management. But also I wasactually very fortunate to also
be the nutritionist for theAustralian Olympic synchronized
swimming team. Just by chance Ifell into that. And I found it
(02:52):
so striking that all thesepeople from very different
backgrounds, so these Olympicathletes, and these people had
all these chronic conditionswere all coming to me
complaining of the gut. And Iwas like, God, what is it about
this organism? It's haunting me,and that was around 2010. So
there hadn't been a whole lot ofgut health research really come
to the forefront just started tobe a little bit more niggly in
(03:14):
the in terms of the literature,but certainly in our textbooks,
it was really lacking. And Ithought you know what I owe it
to my grandma and to my patientsto find out more about this
organ, because I feel likethere's just such a gap there.
So I embarked on a PhD, lookingat whether we could target the
gut through the right nutrition,specifically, it was a
combination of pre andprobiotics and synbiotics.
(03:34):
Looking at whether we canimprove the health of not just
things like gut symptoms, butalso things systemically like
kidney function, mental health,and it was really that PhD that
just transformed everything. Forme, I was like, wow, actually,
the gut is incredibly powerful.
And I think we've justmisunderstood it, and the way
that we treat it the way wemanage it, and I could see that
if I was ever going to have myimpact. It was going to be via
(03:57):
the gut, because it was just itwas a landmark scientific
discovery. And I was fortunateenough to really be at the
forefront of that research. Soit was really Yeah, that PhD and
then I was like, obviously wantto continue in the research
field and contributes I lookedaround the world who was doing
the most innovative gut healthresearch. And it was King's
College in London. So Iessentially begged Professor
(04:20):
Whelan, I think a lot oflisteners will know who he is
for a job. And interestinglyenough, I think just a bit of a
side note, but I actually didn'tget the job I applied for at
Kings. So if you get kind ofknocked down, don't worry, just
you know, build your resilience.
And actually, I was fortunateenough then for him to say, you
know, you didn't get that job,but you know, I think you could
(04:41):
be really good at in this otherarea. And, and so yeah, he gave
me that opportunity. And yeah,so I just moved over by by kind
of that job offering I never abit bit ignorant in Australia,
typically in terms of travelingoverseas, no ambition at all
growing up. And so I was justlike, Yeah, I'll do it for A
year fine. And then yeah, theresearch opportunities in the UK
(05:03):
for nutrition based research isjust unbelievable at the moment.
So I got stuck here based onlike amazing research grants
that we
Aaron Boysen (05:11):
got. We're happy to have you as well done
Professor Whelan good choice.
Probably, yeah, we could arguewhether he should have picked
your first or not, but I'm surethat was a great candidate as
well. So, but I wanted to askwhat have you What have you done
in that role? So far? It wasobviously back in 2010. It's now
2023. When we're recording this,what have you been able to do in
that role in that in the 13years?
Dr Megan Rossi (05:33):
Yeah, so I actually didn't move over to
2015. So 2010, when it was whenI embarked on my PhD, so then
moved over 2015. And here myfirst research grant was for the
MRC for Medical ResearchCouncil, where we were looking
at whether different types ofdietary fibers could actually
help people with irritable bowelsyndrome. So we know as
(05:54):
dieticians that a lot of peoplewho have IBS, they have a very
hypersensitive gut to fiber andbacterial fermentation, what we
wanted to understand is whetherwe combine different fibers,
whether that would actually makethem more tolerable in the gut,
and sweet and amazing, so weliterally still haven't
published the final paper forthat, which just highlights how
(06:15):
long research takes to get topublication stage. But they've
done amazing pilot studies totest things as well as MRI
studies, which essentially iswhere it's like my favorite type
of research, we've collaboratedwith some colleagues in
Nottingham, where we feedvolunteers, different types of
fibers, and we have thisfunctional MRI scan of their gut
looking at colonic gasproduction, like how much gas is
(06:37):
being produced, how much fluidis being drawn in there, and
then correlate that withpeople's symptoms. And from that
MRI work, we show that actuallycombining different dietary
fibers actually could makecertain prebiotics, less
fermentable fibers moretolerable in this cohort,
because we know with IBS, thatif we learn up on prebiotics, I
can get more gut symptoms, butwe know that also freemax are so
(06:58):
beneficial. And perhaps if wefeed people with IBS,
prebiotics, we can actually helpresolve their IBS we needed to
kind of overcome the symptomsside of things. And then we've
moved that into a clinical trialactually international one. So
we collaborate with Mexico aswell. So they recruited half the
participants. Yeah, thatresearch is being written up at
the moment.
Aaron Boysen (07:18):
Sounds very, very exciting. I mean, could you just
clarify for the audience what aprebiotic is?
Dr Megan Rossi (07:22):
Yeah, absolutely. So prebiotic,
essentially, is a fertilizer forour good gut bacteria, because
they're mostly types of fiber.
But actually, the definition ofa prebiotic has recently been
updated to include not justtypes of fibers, other types of
plant chemicals. There's othertypes of phytochemicals, which
can also have benefits. Andprebiotics are in so many of our
foods that are readilyaccessible. In fact, legumes and
I'm sure we'll talk more aboutthem, because they're one of my
(07:44):
favorite plant categories thatare made because they're just
such powerhouses that are reallyaccessible. And they're actually
one of the best sources ofdietary prebiotics.
Aaron Boysen (07:55):
It sounds like you've done quite a bit of work.
And obviously, it takes time toget things written up and stuff
within academia. However, youdon't just work at King's
College London, you also do afew other things, too. So
you're, you've got quite a largefollowing on your website,
social media channels, you'vegot your own clinic, you also a
columnist at the Mail on Sunday.
Did you see your career goingdown this path and doing so many
(08:15):
things? Or did you fall into it?
Dr Megan Rossi (08:18):
Yeah, no, not at all. I was very much in my head,
a researcher. But it wasprobably about about, yeah,
about a year, I would sayworking at Kings as a research
fellow, and loving workingthere, loving the research. But
you know, I just have to getfrustrated, essentially, that
despite the amazing work thatwas being done, it wasn't being
translated. And actually, ittook so long to translate some
(08:41):
of the things that we knew,right? Like I just said, seven
years, and we saw them on theirlandmark paper for it. So I
thought, you know, what, how canI do my bit for science
communication? How can I helptranslate some of these key
concepts more effectively orefficiently? So I thought, You
know what, why not set up socialmedia. If I get like 100
followers, I'd be doing more ofa service for science
(09:02):
communication than just sittingaway. And in my scientific
world, complaining about thelack of translation. Come on,
let's do something good. I'lltry to anyway. So yep, so that's
social media didn't expect muchat all. But I think it was just
really good timing in terms ofhow salad came out in the media
more, and people were lookingfor a credible source of
information to try to get theirheads around what was happening
(09:24):
in terms of this landmarkscientific discovery. So yeah,
it was it was great timing. And,yeah, in terms of the gut health
clinic, I always continuedworking as a clinician so even
as a research I always did someprivate practice because, you
know, every each their own but Ialways felt it made my research
more relevant because I waskeeping my hand and
(09:44):
understanding what people whatissues people were faced with
and what they're experiencing.
So yeah, it's just throughdemand in terms of people like
I've got an issue. I really needsome support. So yeah, I felt
that when I started workingHolly street which can be
incredibly dodgy. And I waslike, You know what, there's not
enough qualified clinicianshere. And people were going to
(10:06):
like, crazy unqualifiednutritionists and all this sort
of stuff. And on crazysupplements winning so much on
these crazy tests, I thought Ineed to bring kind of
credibility to this area. Soyeah, brought from my team from
Kings who also clinicians, andyeah, now we've grown to about
10 of us.
Aaron Boysen (10:23):
I personally, I'm going to be honest with you,
when I've got so many differentthings to focus on. It's hard to
sometimes manage it all. How doyou sounds like a cliche? Sounds
like such a cliche question.
Basically, what what sort of, sothere might be other dieticians
who are interested in ornutritionist who are interested
in do going down a similar pathand doing loads of different
things? Is there any suggestionsyou would make to them? Or
(10:45):
things they need to considerbefore they go down that route?
Dr Megan Rossi (10:49):
Yeah, look, I think I am really happy, I had
quite a strong, like clinicalFoundation, because I do have a
few students that I mentor fromdietetics. And they're just so
keen to get into a sciencecommunication or start their own
clinic. And they lack thatinitial foundation of that
hardcore clinical expertise thatyou learn on the job I take
degrees, I think are great, butthey don't give you that hands
(11:11):
on experience. So I was reallyhappy that I had like the four
years really to solidify mySpaceX skills, I think that's
probably an important one. Andthen in terms of juggling
different things, for me, it'steam like having a brilliant
team, I certainly am not theonly the only one that's the
girl doctor or the girl clinic,I have a brilliant team that I
can really trust. And I know weshare the same passion and goals
(11:32):
to empower everyone withevidence based practice and
support. So yeah, for me, makingsure you've got a supportive
group of colleagues around you.
Aaron Boysen (11:42):
Definitely, I'd say the team or just people not
necessarily to support you, butalmost to motivate you as well,
and push you forward and see newopportunities and things like
that, I definitely mirror that.
I'm going to be honest with you.
Now, in regards to gut healthand things like that, when I
talked to lots of dieticians,mostly work within the National
Health Service, the NHS. We knowgut health is important. And you
(12:03):
can say it all day gut health isreally important and things like
that. But most the time in theirconsultations, they might not be
thinking about gut health,they're thinking about the
nutritional problem, and howthey can solve that problem. Or
it could be poor nutritionalintake, excessive nutritional
intake, it could be possiblyworking on more specialist diet,
do you think it's important toactually still think about gut
health within that patientcohort? Or is this just from
(12:24):
people to people on the street?
Would you say who don't have anyother problems?
Dr Megan Rossi (12:28):
Yeah, and that's a really great question. And I
completely understand when youare a full time clinician to
keep on top of this researchthat literally is churning over
every week, new things that comeinto the forefront, it can be
really hard to keep on top ofit. So I completely understand
from that side. But like you'vesaid, it is actually quite
important, or that you've askedit is quite important, because
(12:50):
it's kind of fundamental shiftinto the power of nutrition, I
actually wrote a great paper forthe British nutrition
foundation, I think it was 2019,where it go through it's like
nutrition in new lattice. Imean, anyway, we can link it to
the to the show notes ifhelpful. But the paper kind of
explains the concept that wealways knew that nutrition had
(13:10):
an impact on human health, likewe always knew that through
human metabolism, food could bereally powerful. But through the
discovery of our gut microbiota,these trillions of micro
organisms, we've now discovereda new pathway to which food is
impacting human health. It's notjust through human metabolism,
it's through microbialmetabolism. And this is rebirth,
(13:30):
this array of understanding andmechanisms to how food can
really have these far reachinghealth benefits. For example,
things like plant diversity,which I'm sure we'll talk into
as concepts, but historically,as nutritionists, dieticians
feel like, it doesn't reallymatter, as long as they're
getting their 30 grams of fiberin who cares at the source,
right? But actually wouldn'tbecause of the microbiome, it's
(13:53):
opened up this new mechanism,this new understanding that each
different fiber functionallyfeeds different micro organisms,
and therefore we need thatdiversity to have the optimal
health outcomes. So actually, ithas really, I think, changed,
you know, as a profession, ourperception of how powerful food
can be. So it actually shouldstart to be integrated, I think,
(14:15):
into all of our understandingsof, of, you know, the power of
nutrition, whether you'retreating or managing, you know,
cancer patients or osteoporosis.
You know, for example, we knowthat prebiotics, when we spoke
with the fertilizers, the gut,gut bacteria, actually caught
administration of them withcalcium increases calcium
absorption our body. So, youknow, there is a lot to say, for
(14:38):
the mechanisms underpinning, Iguess, you know, nutrition or
therapeutic nutrition, you know,via the gut microbiome.
Aaron Boysen (14:49):
Yeah, so it should be thought about as well as the
nutritional problem in thebackground, at least as a
concept and we need to ensurethat we're actually fostering
people's good gut health withthose diverse ingredients now,
what sort of benefits can comefrom having diverse ingredients,
particularly talking aboutdiverse fibres? And not just
hitting that 30 gram a daylimit?
Dr Megan Rossi (15:08):
Yeah, look, well, we know most of us are
getting less than 20 grams. Sowe do have a while to get to the
30. In terms of, of those 30grams, the source has become
really quite important. Sothere's been some really great
research done by many differentgroups out there now starting to
look at the health benefits ofdifferent types of fiber based
(15:29):
on this one systematic reviewlooked at the benefit of I
think, of dietary fiber, but oncolon cancer risk, and they
showed for every 10 gramsincrease in total fiber, you
decrease your risk of coloncancer by 10%. A lot of us have
heard that before. But what theythen did is looked at the source
of fiber, and they looked atWhole grain fiber and showed
that for every 10 grams increasein wholegrain. Fiber, they were
(15:51):
having a 10% decrease in coloncancer, but then they looked at
fiber from fruit. And they foundthat that fiber from fruit
didn't seem to have thatprotective effect on colon
cancer, unlike the whole grainfiber. Now, that's certainly not
to say that whole grain fiber isany more beneficial than the
fiber fruit, or the veggiesorry, the fiber from Veg or
fiber from fruit, but highlightsmechanistically, they do
(16:14):
different things. Because weknow that actually the fruit
have got all these otherphytochemicals, which can be
really protective against othertypes of cancer. So I think
we're starting to appreciatethat each different kind of
category. And even subspecies ofplant has a array of different
benefits. A lot of thosebenefits come from feeding
different types of microorganisms, which essentially do
(16:35):
different things. They senddifferent messages throughout
the body that can protect usagainst, you know, different
types of sort of, you know,source of inflammation, but as
well as things like, you know,mutations types of cancers.
Aaron Boysen (16:50):
Awesome.
Definitely, I think so whatyou're saying is, basically, it
doesn't, it's not just about the30 gram in that 30 gram limit
from whatever source possible,it's actually about where that
comes from, and diversifyingthose ingredients just as much
as just hitting that thresholdcap. So you could argue that
sometimes the fiber supplementsor things like psyllium husk and
things like that, possiblywouldn't have a lot of the same
(17:12):
benefits. Or if they're not partof a diverse diet, they wouldn't
have those benefits. Is thatcorrect? Yeah,
Dr Megan Rossi (17:20):
essentially, each the fibers are doing
things, different things. So weactually know that psyllium husk
is incredibly helpful forconstipation, because it's a
unique fiber that gets hydratesin the colon, and therefore has
that luxating effect. But theinteresting thing about psyllium
husk because this is one of thefibers that we were researching,
is that the bacteria can'tferment it. So very poorly
(17:41):
fermented, which is why actuallyit's well tolerated. And people
with more sensitive guts likeIBS, because there's no gas
formed. So actually, it doesn'treally feed the gut bacteria,
it's got more of a functionalkind of an effect on the kind of
the muscles of the gut versusthe mechanism of actually
nourishing and feeding bacteria,which then produce things like
the short chain fatty acids,which communicate with the rest
of our body to look after us. Soabsolutely right, in terms of
(18:03):
the different fibers are doingdifferent things. And that's
what you may have heard, wetalked about the Super six for
fall. So there's six differentplant based food categories. And
I'm a big advocate that peoplereally try and focus on having
something from the super sixmost days where they can, Erin,
I'm going to put you on the spothere. What are the super six?
How much research have you beendoing?
Aaron Boysen (18:26):
The Super six, in what?
Dr Megan Rossi (18:29):
plant based food groups? Okay, I'll start whole
grains, whole
Aaron Boysen (18:34):
grains, would you say beans and legumes?
Absolutely. green leafyvegetables,
Dr Megan Rossi (18:38):
just veggies in general, as other
Aaron Boysen (18:41):
fruits be its own category? Absolutely.
We've already said whole grains.
Got some seeds, herbs andspices, herbs and spices. But
there's a six different
Dr Megan Rossi (18:51):
categories. And I think it's important we start
to try things in our own diets.
Are we getting something fromthe super sex? You know, most
days? Most of us aren't, we'reactually cutting out complete
food groups that we knowactually have unique benefits.
And one of the most common ones,which a lot of studies have
highlighted is the legume group,in terms of a lot of the data
from the 2015 have shown thatmost of us don't need any
(19:15):
legumes at all.
Aaron Boysen (19:19):
Yeah, I think definitely, you've shown that I
probably aren't as aware of theSuperSix as I should be. And I
should probably increase theamount of particularly I should
focus on SuperSix. Definitely.
There you go there. I've learnedsomething from this podcast, at
least obviously, your work atKing's College is definitely
academic and you look at thingsfrom an academic perspective. It
takes time because there's lotsof rigor and peer review
involved within those thatresearch. What recent research
(19:41):
studies have you seen thatparticularly impactful in terms
of the ways of healthcareprofessionals on the ground,
view the importance of thesediverse ingredients? Yeah,
absolutely.
Dr Megan Rossi (19:52):
I think one of my favorite studies I think can
be quite powerful on publichealth perspective was published
in Lancet 2009. I think and whatthey showed was a systematic
review. And they showed that forevery eight grams of fiber
increase per day, we couldreduce our risk of heart disease
by 19%, our risk of type twodiabetes by 15%, and risk of
(20:14):
colon cancer by about 8%. Andthat was just that eight grams
of fiber. So what I love helpingpatients to cleanse unscented is
eight grams of fiber isliterally like a cup of beans,
that's eight grams of fiber. Addthat to your your Indian
takeaway, if you're having thatfor dinner, or to your Bolognese
that's quite accessible and easyfor most people do. So
highlighting that yeah, or, youknow, some veggie sticks and
(20:37):
some hummus, another eight gramsof fat. So eight grams of fiber
is really attainable. So I thinkfor clinicians, as well as
understanding that these smallchanges to people's diets can
actually have quite significantimprovements on their risk of
these really common chronicconditions. And then there was
also more for kind of, I guess,the world category, looking at
people who want to increaselongevity, a paper published by
(21:00):
University of Bergen last year.
And what they did is looked athow we could extend lives. And
they showed that we could extendlives by up to a decade by
changing tweaking your diet insome sort of way. And what they
showed was the biggestcontributor in terms of he
looked at the supersets and theyshowed that adding legumes,
beans and pulses into people'sdiets could increase your
(21:20):
longevity by two and a halfyears, which is quite
significant. And that was andthen it was under that was whole
grains, then nuts in terms of Ithink wholegrains might have
been like too quick, two years,adding nuts to your diet, daily
diet was like 1.9 years orsomething like that. So they did
it like that. And so it was areally nice way to see again,
the importance of getting thatdiverse range of plants into
(21:41):
people's diets for that, youknow, longevity, I mean, we all
want to live longer and happierand healthier, right? So
Aaron Boysen (21:50):
definitely sounds like I can understand why you
like beans and pulses. So if youwant to pick a hierarchy of the
super six, the leader isdefinitely lead by impulses. But
Dr Megan Rossi (21:59):
the reason for that is not necessarily because
they're more powerful than theothers. It's because we've
missed them out. There's beenthis like, kind of push away
from them. So it's the easiestwins because we're having so
little of them.
Aaron Boysen (22:13):
I definitely think historically there was
definitely a push away fromthem. I do think recently,
particularly with younger, moresort of health savvy consumers,
they've been a bit more and muchmore diet literate, influenced
by evidence based professionalsgetting online, whether it be
dieticians, nutritionistsgetting online and sharing a
message. Rarely. Would you saythat the interest in the subject
of diverse ingredients from anacademic perspective and a
(22:35):
clinical perspective, has spedup over the last five to 10
years, obviously, back in 2015.
King's College were steamingahead and probably pioneers in
this area. But would you say theothers are catching up in the
area? And there's lots moreinterest in this field
academically?
Dr Megan Rossi (22:49):
Yeah, look, absolutely, I would say probably
not 510. I would say in the pasttwo years, the interest has
really grown in terms of thisconcept and this mechanistic
understanding of, of whydiversity is important. So we're
like, Okay, now we get it webecause it's nourishing the
different micro organisms. Sonow we need to match the measure
the clinical impact of it. Yeah,absolutely. It's a great example
(23:13):
of I think how public'sinterest, and even food industry
for that matter, in terms ofreally integrating this concept
of ASD into the food supply ismade the academic world go Oh,
actually, yeah, let's reallystart to measure this and look
in more detail about how it'sall working.
Aaron Boysen (23:32):
I think particularly when you think
about the You've mentioned a lotof the physical health benefits
of adding extra fiber to yourdiet, but I remember when I was
at a New Scientist conference,you were talking about the other
benefits to having adding extrafiber to your diet. Do you mind
discussing those the audiencecuz I don't always think people
think about those benefits.
Dr Megan Rossi (23:49):
Yeah, which are incredibly important.
Specifically, things like mentalhealth, because the stats show
that one in four of us everysingle year will have some sort
of mental health event. It'ssomething that affects so many
people yet, I don't thinknutritionally. We chat about the
power of it that much. And Iunderstand this landmark study
paper coming out in 2017. Beforethat, I was really nervous to
(24:11):
ever promise that nutritioncould help with a mental health
condition. I thought, maybe alittle bit I didn't want to
overstep the line, but there'samazing paper, the smiles trials
for those who haven't read it,do check it out by Felice
jackers group in Australiaactually. And all good things
come from Australia and it wasamazing paper and it gave me
(24:31):
confidence as a clinician thatactually I could start to say,
You know what, if you nourishyour gut through a really loads
of plants, not just plants onlyI think that's probably a myth
that's started to penetrate butit was a Mediterranean diet. So
pretty much included the supersix most days with fermented
dairy, oily fish and things likethat. And what they showed is
that following this way ofeating for 12 weeks, and people
(24:54):
had moderate severe depressionactually resulted I think it's
like a 32% improvement andpeople's know If, at the end of
those 12 weeks 32% of thoseparticipants had such a
significant improvement in theirmental health scores, that they
would have been medicallyclassified as no longer
clinically depressed based onthe questionnaires that they
used. And that was just bychanging their diet was
(25:14):
incredibly powerful. And Ialways like to caution that
everyone stayed on their theirmedications, that antidepressant
medication. So if anyone'slistening to this, I'm certainly
would never say, you know, ditchthe medications go cold turkey,
but it just shows it as anadjunct therapy, diet can be
incredibly powerful. Andcertainly in my own clinical
practice. Since that papers comeout, I've now worked with
(25:35):
psychiatrists actually get somepatients who really want to come
off their medications completelyoff them, just by focusing on
diet, obviously, that's aprocess and you need to make
sure it's put the support of ofpsychiatrists or the prescribing
doctor, we've got the data toback up how powerful dietary
approach can be.
Aaron Boysen (25:51):
Definitely. And I think, obviously, there's lots
more research to do. But there'sso many things about the gut
that we don't fully understandyet the impacts of whole
ingredients and things likethat. And I think as time goes
on, we're definitely discoveringthat actually. It's not just
about the macronutrients, he'snot just talking about the
macronutrient and micronutrientbox, actually, the impact the
(26:12):
whole food has on our digestivesystem on our overall health is
what gives us the benefit, notnecessarily the sort of tick box
ingredient, however much wesometimes wish is clinical
dietitians. It was just a tickbox ingredient. And I'm sure
there's lots of people love thatlove to package up something
that actually is the foods thatwe need to nourish and build our
bodies to be healthier. Now,back at the beginning of the
(26:34):
podcast, we mentioned thegovernment recommendations
around 30 grams per day, yousaid that most people are not
achieving that they're maybehitting around 20 grams per day.
Now, you've mentioned a figureboth in your talk, but in your
book, or 50 grams per day formaximum maximal benefit. Would
you say now, I don't think I'malone in sight. I don't think
I'm the only one alone in sayingthis. But most people would
(26:56):
really struggle to that. Howwould you support patients to
come closer to this target?
Dr Megan Rossi (27:01):
No, absolutely.
I think that's a really greatquestion. Now, the 50 grams that
I typically recommend have comefrom that smiles trial. So
remember, I said these peoplehad moderate to severe
depression and their diet thekind of Mediterranean diet was
gave provided them 50 grams offiber a day. Now actually, I
know it sounds like a lot, butit's really doable in terms of
getting in 50 grams of fiber aday. It's just like little
(27:23):
tweaks in your diet. So like thelegumes, for example, cup of
them contains 10 grams of fiber,that's 1/3 Like just done sorted
for snacks, I think is a reallyunderrated opportunity. And one
pair contains like five grams offiber, one tablespoon of
linseeds contains three and ahalf grams of fiber, I think
we're gonna be having breakfast,sprinkle them across, or if
(27:44):
you're having some soup,sprinkle some wooden seeds in
it. It's just those littletweaks we can make to whatever
we're eating. And if you have apolonaise for dinner, cut out
half the minutes, replace itwith a can of tin lentils, stuff
like that, again, you're goingto get an extra 10 grams it and
you know what, like a lot of therecipes that I would make they
contain at least 15 grams offiber per serve. Now, of course,
(28:06):
if someone is really sick, andthey've got a really poor
appetite, then of course, it'sgoing to be difficult to get
that volume of food in. Butactually the vast majority of
people I see in clinic, they caneasily achieve the 50 grams of
fiber. Of course, we never wouldwant someone to go from 20 grams
to 50 grams, even in a monththat would take around three
months for the gut to adjust andreally be able to learn to
(28:28):
metabolize all the differenttypes of fiber they're getting
so slow and steady definitelywins the race. But it's more
easy. Oh, it's easier than Ithink we think if you hear that
50 numbers, oh my God, that'scrazy. But whenever you have
like porridge greater Khairuddingreat, some kojedal and that
adds an extra three grams offiber or something to a bowl of
porridge, which already containsabout eight grams, little things
(28:50):
like that actually really add upto making the 50 grams really
achievable. Or you know what ifyou're at 20 grams, let's just
start with aiming for your 30grams. Let's be really
realistic, I think of whereyou're at.
Aaron Boysen (29:04):
I think one other thing that I've also started
using quite recently implementedin my diet, should we say think
about a meal you might havemeeting, I haven't fully
convinced myself to go fullymeat, I go fully meat free on
some meals. But sometimes I liketo still have that sort of
experience in my life. So I addin say, for a curry I go, let's
have a killer chickpeas into acurry that already has meat,
(29:25):
split it in half, save a bit ofthe money on the meat and also
including increase the diversityof the fibers and things like
that. I think that's Would yousay that's a good option and
thinking about different waysyou can do that, as you say
mentioned about bolognese?
Dr Megan Rossi (29:37):
Absolutely. I think that's a perfect example.
And I think we know that 100%plant base is not necessarily
healthier. Like I understandenvironmental and cultural
reasons why someone wants to dothat. But certainly going 100%
plant based doesn't mean thatyou're healthier or have better
gut health than someone who's anomnivore and also eat some
animal foods as well. So I thinkthat you know, it's not the
(29:58):
extreme diets. Some that maybewe hear on social media are
healthier. It's not necessarilytrue. But again, there's so many
examples. And you know, ifyou're having, you know,
takeaway, unlike Yeah,absolutely, I personally have
takeaway, I'll have pizza. Butwhat I do is when I have my
pizza, I usually get like a canof mixed beans, I find the CANS
because they're just soaccessible and easy, you know,
they cost like ADP, and youknow, it just quickly rinse it
(30:21):
already cooked. And then I addon top of my pizza, you know,
and it's a great way again, toget extra 10 grams of fiber to
my pizza that I'm having. Soit's just those ways of just
tweaking your diets rather thanhaving to have this crazy
overhaul of like, oh, I nevereat takeaway and stuff like
that, which is not realistic formost people.
Aaron Boysen (30:38):
Yeah, so it's a lovely approach of just adding
to the diet instead of takingaway and banning certain things.
And I think when, obviously,we're coming to the end of
January now, but actually, whenthinking about New Year's
resolutions, probably a betterapproach will be to think about
adding things rather than takingaway actually, how can I add the
SuperSix into my day, everysingle day, can I put beans in
this meal lentils in this mealnuts in this one chickpeas in
(31:01):
this one, however many, manyways that you can cook it and I
think that's such a nice way tothink about it. But there's one
thing I think about when I thinkabout so I've spent most of my
career working within the NHS,working with patients that are
wide variety of patients to behonest. And sometimes I feel
like these nice meals that Imight have come from my own
home, or the ones I see onInstagram, with some beans,
(31:25):
chickpeas are not alwaysaccessible to those who don't
have good good cooking skillshave poor cooking confidence, or
due to other circumstances suchas disability or unable to cook
for example, it might be anelderly gentleman who possibly
his wife passed away and shecooked a lot of the meals. How
would you recommend what wouldyou recommend to these kinds of
patient cohorts in increasingtheir fiber intake?
Dr Megan Rossi (31:47):
Yeah, look, I think the bean example a can of
lentils, mixed beans, it's sucha perfect opportunity for that
because they don't need to cookit even if they're having
takeaway. They can add that init's like a really easy win. But
also I love the fact that Iguess food industry is starting
support this concept ofincreasing plant diversity
increasing fiber I know thatthere is a leading retailer at
(32:09):
the moment looking to try tointegrate more things like fava
beans and other types of legumesinto some of their base recipes.
So I do hope that food industryreally can support those sorts
of populations. But I thinkyeah, it's also comes back to
thinking about those easy winsif they can't cook you don't
need to cook legumes in thetinned version. It's already
done just get the ones withoutany sort of flavor. Just get the
(32:31):
ones and water and stuff likethat. And yeah, and it's easy
when
Aaron Boysen (32:34):
I've even seen like really font like on the
other opposite end of thespectrum really fancy beans
cooked in like special. Brian, Ithink it's definitely becoming
more popular all the rage. Now.
I think I saw a stat from Ithink it was one of these
research institutes I think itwas your own motor into it,
nothing to do with cars. Butyour emotions national said that
it was going up to 22%, I thinkor 25% in 2020 27. I think it's
definitely increasing. What doyou think the real pushes among
(32:59):
the general population? Or is itthis research? Or is it other
things as well,
Dr Megan Rossi (33:04):
I think it is the health that's a feeding down
from the media. So obviously,the research has to be done to
highlight the good source ofprebiotic and gut health is very
on trend. So I think people, ifthey can see that there is a gut
health benefit of somethingthat's actually really low cost,
particularly in this kind ofeconomic climate, then people
like Hell yeah, I'm gonna jumpfor that it's really accessible.
(33:25):
So I think there is that thatbenefit of the media, educating
the wider public around thehealth benefits of legumes. And
then also, of course, I thinkfood industry making it
accessible. They're putting itin foods that I think consumers
are, they have already accepted.
So if you add some legumes intolike a pasture dish that's pre
packaged, people are like, Oh,that's new, but I liked the
(33:47):
pasture. So maybe I'll try it.
And then they go, Oh, actually,I really like it. Whereas there
might have been put off by thefact of having to buy a whole
can of it. So food industry ofjust slowly starting to
integrate legumes I think hashas paid off and people's
acceptance of it.
Aaron Boysen (34:02):
Yeah. and adapt.
Obviously, people say they'renot influenced by marketing or
influenced by brand messages.
However, I do think having thebrand's almost make it appealing
and almost sexy brings peopleinto those health benefits. So
it's almost using theirmarketing to push those health
benefits to people as well.
Because I remember some of thesebeans you've mentioned today,
(34:22):
probably a couple of years ago,you'd have to go to a really
nice supermarket, you'd go intothe supermarket, get the beans
off the shelf, they'll be dried,but actually the fact that being
incorporated now I think makesit a lot more accessible for a
lot of the cohorts that we'vementioned, and lets them try new
things as well.
Dr Megan Rossi (34:38):
Yeah, no, absolutely, I think plays a key
role.
Aaron Boysen (34:43):
And so we've touched on, we're focused on
using a plant based diet toimprove gut health. Now, are
there any other ways we canimprove gut health that aren't
dietary approaches?
Dr Megan Rossi (34:54):
I look absolutely. I think that's a
really good point. And asdietitians we usually do touch
on lifestyle factors. So I thinkit is Part of our kind of
toolkit or repertoire toactually look at these non
dietary approaches to improvinggut health, and I think most
dietitians are aware, but Ialways like to just highlight
whenever I say the word plantbased, I don't mean plants only,
it's that it's based on plants,majority plants, but actually,
(35:16):
you can absolutely add animalfoods in there if you want to,
it's the plants only that kindof people really associate. So
just I like to always make surethat it's clarified with people
I'm not advocating, we'll goplant so and then in terms of
these non dietary approaches,yeah, so we know that there's
three other key pillars. Sowe've got the stress, we know
that independent of diet, stresscan trigger gut issues, like the
(35:39):
symptoms, bloating,constipation, diarrhea, etc. But
also it has seemed to have thisimpact on the diversity of our
gut bacteria. And we certainlysee that a diverse range of gut
bacteria is associated withbetter overall outcomes, a
better gut health, but themental health, the heart health.
So there's this concept ofdiversity not only in the food
we eat, but in the types ofbacteria that live in our gut is
(36:00):
associated with the healthbenefits. So stress, 10 minutes
of mindfulness each day, if wecan, those sorts of things
actually can have quitemeasurable impacts on people's
gut health, sleep, we're alwaysbang on of the seven to nine
hours. But actually, again,independent of diet, a lack of
sleep has been shown to reducedown the diversity of gut
bacteria. But also it works bothways. It seems to be bi
(36:22):
directional, where actually, ifyou don't have good gut health,
it should also impact yoursleep. And then the third pillar
outside of diet is movement. Soagain, independent of diet, so
people stay on their diets, butactually, they start moving
their bodies more three days aweek, some sort of high
intensity, or moderate intensityactually, exercise that
actually, again, has been shownto increase the diversity of
(36:44):
their gut bacteria. Yeah, Iknow, it's concepts, I guess, as
dietitians their lifestyle,blah, blah, sleep pre stress
move, but actually, we nowunderstand mechanistically. So
there are of course, thepatients they see in clinic
clients, and they say, Look, Ijust want to focus on my diet,
because I can control it mucheasier. And I'm like, I get it.
But you know, how does matterhow perfect how that boosting
(37:08):
your data is, if you don't fixthose other three domains,
you're not going to really reapall those health benefits you
can achieve from look at health.
So boringly, we do need to lookat those other areas as well.
Aaron Boysen (37:19):
Yeah. And it just shows that holistic approach,
the longer time take, the longerwe move on, actually shows that
it's, there's more thateverything is just more than the
sum of its parts, you can't justfocus on one thing, it is very
much that holistic approach. AndI think as dietitians, we need
to understand that andacknowledge that and actually
(37:40):
think about where the patient iswhat they need to do, and what
they need to focus on. Becauseas you said, if they don't, you
know, sort out stress or thingslike that, a lot of other
dietary changes might not be asimpactful as if you're able to
sort out but I do, I do sort ofempathize with your clients or
patients, that actually it's alot easier to control what you
(38:00):
you eat, rather than the stressyou have, which often comes from
external factors. And also theway we respond to these external
factors, which aren't alwaysconscious. I think it can often
be it's not the easy answer.
It's not that it's quite asimple answer, but it's
definitely not easy to put intoaction.
Dr Megan Rossi (38:17):
Yeah, absolutely not. And I think again, like as
dieticians, we do need, we don'tnecessarily get the training at
university. But we do need tothink about, you know, what are
some evidence based quick hacks,we can add on to people's diets
to deal with the sleep issues todeal with that the lack of
exercise to deal with thestress. And, you know, there is
now pretty good research outthere highlighting, you know,
(38:39):
some sleep hygiene techniques.
So my colleagues from Kingsactually did a really great
clinical trial, showing howpeople followed these nine sleep
hygiene strategies, they putthem on this kind of cohort, I
think it was for like, eightweeks or something. If they
followed those nine sleephygiene techniques, they
(38:59):
actually had significantlyimproved sleep quality, compared
to those who just got told tosleep more. So you know, there
are a lot of strategies outthere that we know are evidence
base that can add extra, youknow, sleep quality, as well as
duration by just making thosethose small tweaks. So it is I
think, important that we don'tjust fixate on diet as
(39:20):
dietitians to look at that wholepicture.
Aaron Boysen (39:24):
Definitely. And I think on that note, I think I
think we should take away thethings you've said today about
the holistic approach, but alsothose super six and I will put
the super six in the show notesand Megan is not allowed to tell
me what the super six are I haveto sort of put them in the show
notes and then she can obviouslyreview it and see if I'm right
(39:46):
or not or everyone else canreview it and see if I'm right
or not, but hopefully it will itwill be able to grasp the
messages and re listen to therecording, do the editing but
thank you so much for your timetoday. Thank you for your help
for your Inspirational sort ofyourself and the things you've
done within your career, theknowledge that you've shared
with people who might be havinggut issues, but also the
(40:09):
knowledge that you've given metoday and things I need to work
on to improve my own gut health.
And hopefully the audience hasgot it too. And they're going to
sort of digest on that and moveforward.
Dr Megan Rossi (40:18):
Yeah, look, it's absolute pleasure. I love
sharing the science and helpingpeople feel more empowered to
make the decision that's rightfor them, right. No one's got
the perfect diet. But if youcould make a small little tweak,
and know what's going to improvenot just how you feel
physically, but emotionally aswell, I think it's quite a
convincing case.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!