Why Representation in Mental Health Matters | Marvel's Ironheart x Dr. Akeem Marsh - Different Spectrums Podcast ™️

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Attention Welcome to the Different Spectrums podcast.
We dive into the wild world of mental health discussions.
Get ready for profound talks, a sprinkle of humor and sarcasm,
and a touch of colorful language.
Just a quick heads up, our show reflects our individual
opinions, which may not align with the standpoint of the

(00:21):
podcast, our featured guests, orany related corporate entities.
Our mission? To illuminate through laughter
and satire because everyone needs a good chuckle.
Chill out and don't stress over the small stuff.
Legal troubles? No thank you.
Cancel culture, please spare us.We'd rather keep this space

(00:43):
lawsuit free. So buckle up, have a good time,
and join us as we navigate the vibrant realm of mental health
on the Different Spectrums podcast.
Hey everybody, we back again. Hey, hey, we're back and we're

(01:03):
live. I'm Spencer, your Co host and
that's our licensed clinical therapist.
Nas. Hey, Doctor, Nas.
All right. That's it.
Great. Thank you for that.
Remember, don't take us too seriously.
Or do. It's completely up to you there.
You go, don't forget also to runup those lights for us.

(01:26):
We'd really appreciate it. So our guest for the show today
is a child and adolescent psychiatrist who leads
integrated pediatric mental health programs at the New York
Foundling, driving innovation and healing trauma and
protecting youth. He's a hospital trained

(01:46):
clinician, university professor at NYU, Co editor of the book
Not Just Bad Kids, and advisor to NYC on juvenile justice
reform. Please welcome Doctor Akeem
Marsh to the show. Thank you.

(02:07):
Appreciate that introduction. Excited, delighted, and honored
to be a part of the program. Love it man.
Allow me to reintroduce myself. My name is.
Hove, there you go. Got to represent, got to
represent. Thank you so much, Doctor King,
for coming on to the show today.It's going to be a really good

(02:29):
one. So what are we talking about
today? We are going to be talking about
the brand new Disney Plus Marvelshow called Iron Heart which
follows Rhode Island. Rhode Island Williams and her
adventures is being Ironheart. We actually first got introduced

(02:53):
to her in Wakanda Forever and now she's getting her own spin
off show, which pretty good. OK, pretty pretty good.
So a few different topics we're going to be talking about today.
We're going to be talking about AI.
That's a big topic, especially for the show as well as just in

(03:13):
general in life, because AI is growing and growing learning and
learning every day. And it's something that we need
to start talking about a little bit more, especially when it
comes to the mental health field.
Feels like a people are going tobe using it for any type of

(03:34):
therapy or just relationships ingeneral, any type of human quote
UN quote connections. And so this is a great topic to
talk about. We kind of discussed it a little
bit in our last part, but this time we're going to have a full,
well-rounded discussion about it.
We're also going to be talking about AI and how it's being used

(03:57):
for loved ones or how it could be used for loved ones, whether
they're here or whether they arepassed away or anything like
that, and how that could affect us just as well as any type of
past memories and even talking about the next stage of

(04:18):
evolution. Any who Nah, it's anything
before we get into the show. Yeah, I did not even think about
this until Doc started talking about this, like treatment, how
you can use AI holograms. I'm thinking like, that's wild
to help people with like PTSD ortrauma or just grief
reconciliation. Then I can also see how it could

(04:39):
be used and like or overused in inappropriate ways or cause more
damage. I feel like it'll be a good
discussion to talk about. It's definitely something that
is going to happen no matter what.
It makes me think of all those Black Mirror episodes where they
like plug their consciousness into the computer and then
everyone is like alive, but their consciousness is in the
computer and everyone pays to gothere, which is like trippy as

(05:03):
hell. All those episodes trip me out.
So I'm excited to talk about this.
I'm going to be on my best behavior because Doc is here and
I'm sure a shit ton of respect for that resume, but also
fucking echolalia is kicking in right now with that brown skin
girl fucking song, man. I can just hear it in my head.

(05:25):
It's like old school, but it's new.
It's like he's not that old. The song.
I heard that years ago, but it is.
I'm so excited. We're going to talk about grief
for sure. We're going to talk about
relationships, connection, a bunch of different things.
Excited. So let's get into it.
Whoop, whoop, whoop, whoop. Here we go.

(05:48):
There you go. Finally, no one got it.
All right, let's do it. Did you know we were going to do
that because you watched an episode or No, you just went
with it. I.
Just I just went. Right.
Look at that boy. I'll tell you some people guy
actually got it. You know, they they were right
here. You right here.

(06:30):
Well, miss Bri Williams in my window.
No thanks. Oh shit.
Don't you ever do that shit again, boy.

(06:51):
Oh, shit. I'm alive.
I'm alive. Xavier, What are you doing here?
Yo, Soup, Just kidnap me. What?
What are you doing here? You OK, Ree?

(07:13):
You don't have to say. Fine.
I'm tired. How'd you do that?

(07:37):
That remote control thing to some of me here, that was a
trip. What remote control thing?
I brought you here, Natalie. How are you doing there?
A pleasure to meet you finally. What do you think

(08:18):
that is? That is horrifying.
You had no right to use Natalie as one of your little tech toys,
re. I thought if anybody would get
me, it'd be you. If you think I like that, then
you don't know me at all, you see.
Wait, I swear, it just happened.But I don't know.

(08:43):
You get kind of used to it. It's nice in a way.
Like you're mixtape. Oh, my God, Reed, that's not the
same thing. I'm honoring her.
You're freezing her in time, freaking like she's still alive.
Look at her. She is alive.
Sort of. That is not my sister.
She's not sort of alive. Wow.

(09:03):
OK, So what would you do if you were me?
What would you do? Make her go away?
Delete it. Are you really Natalie?

(09:26):
I'm out. Wait.
Say I can't. What you're asking is I can't.
Well, maybe you should try because it's not going to end
well. Ree.
And keep your watch. OK, Can you show me the thing so

(10:14):
we can go? This is the thing.
Dad's garage. Cool.
Got it. Let's go.
Rhode Island. Rhode Island.
How can you be here, especially at a time like this?

(10:35):
We have to go. Rhode Island.
Rhode Island. Listen to me.
You built things in this garage that most people couldn't dream
of. Can't you see that?
All I see is where Natalie used to be.
And then I wish that she was still here to do my hair and
talk shit, and then I get angry that she's not.

(11:00):
This place took so much from us,yes, but it also gave so much to
us. Just hold on, you remember this

(11:21):
property of Iron Head? I don't know what that is.
You sure about that? On.
Where are they? Dad.

(11:41):
Dad. Dad.
Have you seen my welding goggles?
I need to finish my hydraulic modification device.
Where would it be? Where do it?
Be. Oh.
You need a break. Do.
You think Mae Jemison took breaks?

(12:02):
I don't think so. She was too busy breaking
barriers. You are 8 years old.
You need to be outside riding a bike, catching some fresh air.
Your inventions can wait. I want my goggles.

(12:27):
Just give me one song. You can get these goggles right
back. Fine.
Why did you turn it off? What was the point of projecting

(12:51):
that memory? To show you that when you try to
forget all the memories that make you sad, you wind up
forgetting the ones worth remembering.

(13:30):
Yeah, more. Give me that spin.
You ready for it? Just like that.
Come on, come on. Come on.

(13:59):
Follow me. Watch this.
There you go. Oh.
Oh. Oh oh.
Oh brown skin girl let.

(14:34):
Me. See.
Let me see. Let me see.
Here we go. This is why I don't do bricks.
I didn't even make a scratch. You got a good old.
I'm here. Thank you.

(15:08):
I'm sorry for what I said earlier about how your problem
and I know that's it's all good.No, it's not.
I didn't mean it any of it. You're you're a glitch.
It's you're my glitch. Thanks.

(15:37):
You guys are right. Chicago is home.
Always has been. There used to be a time where I
couldn't imagine being anywhere else.
But why for that feeling? Again, it's only a matter of
time before Parker realizes thatI'm not dead.
I need a suit, and I have nothing to build it with.

(16:00):
Well I was thinking maybe this could help.
Shut. Up how?
When I realized you were stayinghome, I brought it back.

(16:27):
When Dad gave me this car, he told me it'd always keep me
safe. Thick and thick.
Let's get to work. Hey everyone, have you been
looking for something to help you when you feel extra fidgety?
How about when you have a sensory overload?

(16:47):
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(17:08):
visit onoroller.com and get yourroll on.
All right, we are back again. We are fully live brown skin
girl direct live I love it. What's that?
All right, So, Doctor King, for our viewers, I think we'd I

(17:34):
think we'd love to know your backgrounds, your long, lengthy
backgrounds since let us know like what got you started in the
mental health field. Oh, great question.
I would say you kind of started with growing up around kids.
I had a lot of nieces and nephews.

(17:56):
So I was thinking like my first thoughts was that I wanted to
work with children, but I was thinking Pediatrics.
And when I went to medical school, they forced you to do
work at all different specialties.
I had to go through surgery, OBGYN, psychiatry, and then when

(18:17):
I hit psychiatry was like, oh, wait a second, this is this,
there's something to this, this is, this is cool.
This is interesting. And lo and behold, I took
electives in child and adolescent psychiatry and I was
sold. So after getting my training and

(18:38):
education and that the first like formal job that I took
outside of the the training, postgraduate training they call
it, or residency was in working in juvenile detention.
So that because it was, you know, something that was like a
little bit different than the experiences that I had.

(19:02):
And I really, I was really, you know, interested and moved by
that as well to get involved in like research and trying to
understand where people were coming from, understand
backgrounds and also different ways of engaging and, you know,
making use of whatever tools we have available to try to really

(19:24):
connect with the youth. And I'd say that got me to the
point of after doing the initialresearch, eventually writing,
doing like writing a book, also different presentations along
the way. And a lot of the presentation
centered around those kinds of themes, both understanding the

(19:45):
youth, where they're coming from, and also different ways of
engaging. And one of the ways that that
I'd say has been really helpful was actually being interested in
Marvel, being interested in in comic books.

(20:05):
And because, you know, that's that's something that has more
of a universal appeal. Not not everyone likes it,
obviously, but many people do. So, you know, we could sort of
bond over that and. That I guess all of that kind of
breaks me to the present. I try to incorporate that, you
know, besides, like when I'm talking to people, try to

(20:26):
incorporate like I, I tell people this, this, this isn't
totally accurate, but I'm like every presentation has to have a
Marvel reference or something. There.
They got to and then, you know, also talk about it with with,
with, with the young people to they, they gotta check me, you

(20:47):
know, like keep me up to date and all that.
We keep each other up to date. And, you know, it's just like, I
think it's like really rich storytelling, deep characters.
And in many ways, like, like therepresentations that we see are
like, it's like real people, real life events, but it happens

(21:11):
to be in this sort of like fantasy world with superpowers
And, and like, you know, these extraordinary things happening.
But a lot of the core elements, they'll be like, you know, real
issues that people deal with, human interaction, grief,
trauma, things like that. And those are the things that

(21:32):
make make them more relatable. Did you know you always wanted
to work with like adolescents, children, or did you ever want
to do adults? Or how do you discern kids?
Well, good, good point. I mean, to be honest, I do still
work with adults, like like that's still a thing too, but
it's mostly adolescence. And then aside from like having

(21:53):
that extra interest like in working with younger people, I
feel like I kind of gravitated more towards adolescence in a
way, because it was like overtime noticing that that was
one of the groups that was kind of like neglected, not sort of
really appreciate it as much because you know, many people
who want to do Pediatrics or work with kids, they want to

(22:15):
work with younger kids. Adolescence is sort of like that
forgotten group. And then even from my, my own
experience, like in adolescence,I remember when I was going to
the Pediatrics office and it waslike, as soon as you turn 18.
No, actually it was before that.It was 16.
It turned 16. They were like, oh, you got to

(22:35):
go to the adults. I'm like, yeah, bro, I'm not
even an adult. And then the person who I was
seeing like that was an adult, like internal medicine doctor
was not really adolescent attuned, I'd say.
And I mean, it didn't matter that much for me personally

(22:56):
because it was like I didn't really have too much stuff going
on or and nothing really to be. Honest.
But I'm, you know, as I grew older, you know, realizing like
adolescents have so many, like general have so many issues
going on and they do really needspecialized care.
So, you know, it's like I'd be agood fit because the things that

(23:19):
that some people find annoying, either I don't mind or in fact,
I like it. So like we, we, you know, vibe
off of each other. So you know.
Love it, love it, love it. So how do you balance not only
the weights of being a healer, but then also a role model in

(23:41):
communities where there aren't many psychologists or
psychiatrists of color? Yeah, that's, I'm glad you
brought that up because I have to, I have to start off with one
of the jokes I like to tell people there's only 5 black
child and adolescent psychiatrist.
Now that's not exactly true. It's not true, but it kind of

(24:05):
feels like that a lot because somany are places and spaces that
we we go into. It's like, you know, we might be
like the only ones there. And honestly, I would say it at
this point where I'm at, I feel like because like I'm in a
position that I'm in where I'm able to support in different

(24:27):
ways. Like so where I work at a
support like other therapist, being able to see kids and then
I also am able to like support training efforts and mentor
people. And then all of that besides
also working directly with the youth, youth themselves.
And I feel like, you know, at times it can be a lot, it adds

(24:52):
up. But I feel like like, you know,
the impact is something that does really, I find it to be
empowering. And so, you know, I think about
that a lot. And, you know, sometimes like,
like I can see the not sometimes, like often I can see
the impact directly. I can see it from like when I'm

(25:13):
working with somebody and then seeing them over time and seeing
some stability or seeing some some changes in a positive way
that came out of a crisis situation.
And then also on other sides, like seeing, you know, being
able to like, maybe help somebody go from one stage in
their career to another stage, like even just just a little

(25:37):
bit, you know, it's like, I realized that, you know, like, I
alone can't like quote, UN quote, fix the world.
But you know, if, if everyone does like a little bit, like if
we all put in an effort on what we can, then, you know, we can't
bring about like some, some positive changes, some long

(25:58):
lasting changes. And, you know, I, I take note of
any, any little thing that comesup and, and just try to really
appreciate that when it comes up, because it's like, you know,
we have an impact on that. And that's what goes.
That's what counts. I'm going to be real with you,
doc, I don't I have yet to meet one or talk to 1 black

(26:22):
psychiatrist have not I've not seen expense.
I've been doing this for a long time now.
Lots of training, lots of you know, patients, lots of stuff
and not seen it white majority, but then also right, different
types of Asian, maybe Arabic international folks, lot of
international folks I've seen. So it's nice to meet you.

(26:43):
Well, definitely not a thing, brother.
It's much respect, much appreciation that you exist,
because I can guarantee you thisfucking helps out a lot of
people Dream and think and believe and heal.
Exactly. Exactly.
Yeah, Like just. Even having an idea like of
something be impossible and, andsometimes you know what?
It's so funny. It's funny you say that too,

(27:04):
because sometimes, sometimes with some of the kids, they'll
be like, like I'll be talking tothem and I'll be talking to them
for a while and then then they'll be like surprised.
They'll be like, oh, you're my doctor or like, oh, you know,
you're, you're this like I'm like, we were talking about

(27:25):
this, this and this. What'd you guys think I was?
All this time, what'd you? Think I was, but it's it's funny
because they don't they they I think it's cute too, because
it's like they were like relating to me in a different
way in their minds. But it's not like I was
misrepresented. Like I have my ID on that says
doctor Like when I when I first talked to them, I'm like this is

(27:47):
my name doctor. But I also I'm not like maybe
some other people maybe like no,no, call me doctor this like I'm
just like, OK. You know, like.
It's not that serious. So because you know, like there
was that. There was that time when people
were like, you know, you know, you got to wear the white coats,
like I don't wear white coats and and you got to call me

(28:10):
doctor. And also people don't look.
People didn't look at them like like the the doctors wouldn't
look at people. They'd be looking up or looking.
So. I'm like, I'm like, if it's me,
I don't want to talk to somebodywho's not looking at me, who's
not like giving me that respect.So I don't do that.
I try to be engaged and, and youknow, try to have like whenever

(28:31):
possible, have fun, you know, like sometimes we obviously got
to talk about real serious topics like, because that's what
people go through. But the whole experience isn't
like that. And you know, you try to
incorporate other things, other parts of life when possible, and
also try to, you know, make it fun, You know, when when
possible, too. Love it real quick.

(28:54):
My my doctor for my hand surgeonwalks into the room.
My pain, my hands in pain. It's it's it's a whole thing.
You come in Spence with a tweed suit, like tweed.
I'm like, who the fuck is this guy?
You ain't my doctor, dude. You're not my doctor.
I was like, bro, like I don't he's like you're good.
Didn't said like looked at it. He's like, you're good.

(29:16):
I was like, that's it. What else?
Like you know, it's still green.What do I he's like, you're
good. It's like you'll see the
therapist later. I'm like, what type of
therapist? Like will you mental like?
Yeah, right, right, right. Yeah, I don't know.
It was wild, that weird experience.
Go ahead, Spence. So you know, for you navigating,

(29:39):
you've done all of these great accomplishments, you've achieved
so many things. Would you say like how was your
road to this, especially being someone of color, being in this
field for you? What was like, what was your
journey like to where you are now?
But then also, do you feel also like you're obligated to help

(30:03):
those really get into the profession as well so that then
there are more people that can actually, you know, that look
like you to be in this field? Well, I'll be real about the
journey. I would say I really appreciate
the the support that I got when it was around and and definitely

(30:24):
got a good amount of support. And then at the same time, I am
real when I ever talk to youngerstudents and I'm like, listen,
you know how many times I quit, I quit like 50 times.
I quit probably more than that. But when I quit, it was like
this, I'll be like, I'm done. I'm not doing this, this over

(30:47):
and then the next day or a few hours later, the next day, I'd
be like, all right, we're going to get back to it.
And this what happened so many times, so many, so many times.
But I would do things that I would say like help to keep me
motivated. And some of those things were
things like learning about the journeys of other people, like

(31:11):
people in real life and also people, Well, the other people
are in real life, but they're more abstract because I'm like
reading their books or, you know, watching documentaries or
movies. And I would see those stories,
read those stories, hear them and kind of related to myself

(31:34):
and just be like, tell myself like, if, oh, if they could do
it, then I could do it too and not get hung up on or try not to
get hung up on setbacks because,you know, part of life involves
setbacks. And I also tell the tell the
young people like listen, every single accomplishment you see or

(31:56):
hear about, there was like at least 10 things that you know, I
didn't get that I was try apply for.
I. Was interested in didn't come,
you know, so it's like that's just kind of how things go and
you got to roll with it. And and as far as like giving

(32:16):
back, I think that I would say Idon't feel like a really strong
obligation, like obligation in that way.
Although even even though like you see what people may see what
I've done and think that which makes sense, but I feel I just,
I just think about it more like,I think like having more like

(32:45):
diversity in healthcare and mental health, it it actually
would help like everybody do better, like everybody overall.
And I think that's something that that we should, should
strive towards. And so you know, like whenever
ever I have an opportunity, thatis something that I try to do.

(33:07):
If I you know if I can, I'll tryto do that.
Facts. That set back thing is wild.
You said you just roll with it, motherfucker.
Sometimes we'd be rolling aroundin the mud like, you know, it's
exactly it's well. Sometimes it is that exactly.
Sometimes like there was times when when people were like, they

(33:28):
were like, you know, if you don't this, this certain class,
if you don't pass this class andthat's it, your career is over.
And you know, if I'll, if you listen to those people and let
them define you, then that's it.Like, you know, I was like,
like, there was one time where Iheard something like that.
And then I told myself, like, listen, if no one passes this,

(33:49):
I'm going to be the one person who does, you know?
And. I'm gonna bet on me.
Yeah, yeah, bet on me for sure, for sure.
I just know it's a it's a bitch brother to try to just keep
going and going and going and going.
That saying you quit 50 times iswild and 100% accurate.

(34:09):
Yep, Yep, it's true. It's like, but it was like, it
was like, it wasn't like, you know, some people might be like,
OK, it's time for a career change.
It was more like this. It was, it was never really like
a firm like this just isn't for me.
It, it was, it was, it was softer than that, but it was
time. So you know that we're like

(34:30):
really, really challenging and just try to kind of roll with as
best I could. Yep, a break, a pivot
consultation, seeking support from others, right.
You kind of reframe some stuff, you know, So grant yourself some
grace. It's so, it's so nuanced, but
when you have that passion pill,I see.
That chill pill right behind you?

(34:52):
Take that chill pill. 100 milligrams.
Exactly. Matter of fact, let me take 2.
Shit, hang on. Don't be real, doc.
That's all THC. Oh, go ahead, Spence.
What would you say is your favorite Marvel character?

(35:13):
Oh, oh, oh, I like that question.
Somebody somebody recently askedme which one character do you
think is most like you? Oh, and those are two separate
questions then? Yeah, but that one had to become
my favorite then. Oh, it's just accurate because I

(35:36):
was like, which one is like, youknow what I thought of the?
Leader. That's because the leader,
because because of on what's it called, because he got a big
head and he does probability notto probability without thinking

(35:57):
about it. Hold up, who's?
This about you pick like the oneguy with the biggest head.
That's not right. That's the same, right?
Yeah, from like the Hulk. From the Hulk, yes, yeah, yeah.
Yeah. Oh yeah.
Oh my God. This is a villain, isn't he?
Yeah, he is. Well, I mean, he's, he's like.

(36:17):
Well. He's he's he's like on the
fence, you know, but if I'm. Not on the fence.
He's trying to kill the he. Got experimented, man.
He's he's a poor guy and. We go by Brave New World.
That's a feeling. Yeah.
Yeah. Exactly.
He's just well. I'm not trying, I'm not trying
to do all of that. I'm just I'm just talking about
the I'll be I'll be chilling. I'll be chilling.

(36:39):
Just doing probabilities all day, thinking about it, the
numbers, the numbers, no, but let's see actual.
I love it. Actual characters, if we going
if we going way back to, to to childhood, I mean, so many of
them were like so appealing. She's like Megamind.

(37:02):
Megamind. He became a hero.
He became a hero. There you go.
Yeah, was a villain, became a hero.
It's hard. It's hard to choose.
Like I always feel like certain folks like they get pigeonholed,
like I got to pick this one character because of my race.
And so I always feel like that'sthe thing.
Everybody is just like Black Panther.
Yeah, no, I don't have to do that.

(37:24):
Black Panther. OK, I'm Wanda, motherfucker.
Well, see, the thing about the thing about Black Panther is
like, besides, you know, being black, he's super appealing
because he's got the brains, he's got the money, he's got
this, he's got the girl. Exactly.
So he's got a Sue Storm or not Sue Storm?
Sorry. Storm, Storm, Storm.

(37:46):
Oh, wow. Aurora.
Yeah, exactly. They yeah, him and Storm had a
kid together. And then that's yes, in the
comic books. Who's the kid to Charla?
Charla Oh man, I'm so as hell. Absolutely.
But yeah, I mean, like, how could you, if you saw somebody

(38:07):
with all that, that's like somebody, everybody want to be
like that, you know, I mean, whywouldn't you like that's, that's
some serious power. So who was it before the the Uzi
brain pus guy? Who was before the leader?
Yeah. You know, honestly, I got to say
probably Spidey. Wow.

(38:28):
Yeah. South.
York New Yorker Yeah. All right.
All right. All right.
I don't. Even think that was it.
It was just like, you know, he'slike, oh, prob you know what,
you know what, it's taken for granted so much that yeah, that
probably was like the biggest part of it.
But then you know, so many of them are from from the New York.

(38:49):
Area, it's true. It's very true.
Because it's because like, they just wrote the stories like, you
know, like, like based on their own geography.
Yeah, and I got to pick you up from Oklahoma.
You know they're going to they're going to be from a big
mattress. They.
Started branching out, you know,more recently with different.
Locations and different. Finally, yeah.

(39:09):
I was finally, I was out in the Yosemite National Park and we're
walking through the Narrows is this famous walk when you're
walking up a river and this dudewas like Spence.
He was slipping and falling and he landed it and then he goes
like spider man, I died, I died.He landed it, right?
Because if you fuck up and fall like you're like it's you gonna

(39:31):
have to call the. Ambulance and.
They said you drink the water too, like it's got this horrible
blue algae that's like horribly toxic.
And I was like, bro, you go downand then he landed and it's my
niece was like, it was sick. It's spider Man did.
They catch that on film. Was it?
Was it recorded? Yes, I had my GoPro on so I can

(39:52):
it was recorded. Oh.
No, I was just curious because if he did all, if he went
through all of that and it wasn't recorded.
It was like it'd. Be like some random dude.
No no, I got it on camera for sure because I know my GoPro was
on. Hilarious.
You haven't looked at it yet. Wow spider man.
I feel like a lot of people lovespider man spats.
That's just the guy. He's such a great character, he.
Just screw up. He screws up all the time, but

(40:13):
then comes back around and, you know, kind of doesn't give up.
And then it's like he's trying to balance life.
Like everybody's trying to balance life, yeah.
So how many times have you triedto get bitten by a spider?
Oh no. No, you didn't just put your
hand in there and just like, come on, first of all, it
wasn't. Just like a normal ass spider.

(40:34):
It was like a radioactive spider.
It would hey, it would be, it would be on my mind, but it's
like, you know, I'll put it likethis, like if I actually got
bit, you know, I've been like, oh, hopefully, you know,
something will come out of it, but I don't want to go out of my
way and test the waters because,you know, I.

(40:55):
That's not it. No, exactly like I, I don't
really like bugs. No, I had to ask.
It can stay of. Course, that's a good question.
It's something that I'll be thinking about, like if I got
bit like, oh, you. Know, yes, but.
I'm not. I'm not going to look for a
spider. I'm like, Oh no, no, stay, stay
over there. I don't trust that you might be

(41:17):
the one because you're not glowing, you know, like or
glitching out. Glitching out.
If it was blowing or glitching out I might be like.
Dude, you got to do. Exactly.
All right, fine show. Me, show me, let's see what can
happen. But since it wasn't doing that,
I'm like. He just gets that bubbly ass

(41:38):
mind something. Exactly one big tumor.
It's like, before we go what? It's the bad guy from Invincible
when his brain gets like, Oh yeah, Oh yeah.
Oh. Yeah, that could be doc.
That could be get without all the.
Evil stuff that could be you. That could be that, could be you

(42:01):
all evil villains doc. I'm not liking the vibe here.
It's like, yeah, that's right, I'm scheming.
I'm scheming. Yes, Sir, Sir.
That's hilarious. Hilarious.
All right, so back to the nitty gritty, actually, man, I mean,

(42:25):
I'm kind of curious. Like when you're talking about
all these different things to berelatable to kids and people
that you talk to, do you go out Like if you don't know something
like, do you also go out and tryto be like, OK, let me go check
this out. I've never, I haven't heard that
before. I haven't seen that show before

(42:46):
or something like that. Oh, no.
Absolutely. No, I have honestly, let me
think of some good examples. OK, well, somebody actually gave
me a deep appreciation for like classic rock.
One thing. Oh, you know what else too?

(43:07):
Honestly, this related to that too, Music.
As for music, the younger generation, the kind of music
that they like, which a lot of it is like local, like local to
their neighborhoods. And stuff like.
That I treated it the same way my parents treated the music we

(43:33):
listened to growing up. I'm like, oh, that's, that's not
music, that's that's noise, That's whatever.
But I started listening to it because like, it gave insights
into like their worlds, like what's going on with them.
And on top of that, it's like, not only did I get insights in

(43:57):
that way, I started liking it actually.
Not all of it obviously, but I started liking some and sort of
opened, you know, doors, New Horizons and things like that.
And you know, same thing for TV shows and things like that.

(44:17):
I would check out new shows and things like that.
OK. You know people recommend it.
Yeah, I'm down to check it out. My client last night spent, she
said. I got to watch the notebook.
OK. I said I don't.
Think it's so depressing I heard.
About it but. Yeah.
I don't think I've seen it. Ryan Gosling And that, that,

(44:39):
that, that pale white lady. I don't know her name.
Oh, OK, yeah, that's there's only one of those in Hollywood.
Yeah, she got that creamy skin like mashed potatoes.
Oh, yeah, I know that one. Rachel McAdams.
Yeah. There it is.
That actually is it. See, I thought so she's, I guess
there's this meme where he he's standing outside the house that

(45:02):
he built for her, hoping that she comes back or whatever.
Right. And I guess a lot of the kids
are using it as a funny thing because they're after they break
up, they're just waiting for their loved one to come back.
Their ex. I'm like, kid, you got to move
on. Yeah, you got to move on.
And she's. Like come to me when I'm I'm
dying in a hospital. They're like, no they won't.
She's like, you don't understandit because you haven't seen it.

(45:23):
I was like, yeah, I'm not watching this shit.
Yeah, just like Grey's Anatomy, like one of our guests tried to
guess to watch Grey's Anatomy and I was like, it's not
happening, Sorry. Have you seen Grey's Anatomy?
It's been a while but I used to watch it sometimes like that was
one of the. 15th season, you're like, I'm good.
Yeah, You know what I started? It was, I was watching it when I

(45:48):
was in, in college and Med school, But what happened was I
would get annoyed when things would happen that were not like
medically accurate. Exactly.
And so then that's, that's kind of like, I wasn't too interested
in the, the drama parts, you know, it was kind of

(46:09):
interesting, but I was like, more like, like looking at it to
try to learn something like helpme learn, help me get through
school. And then stuff would happen that
was like not totally accurate. So then I just got annoyed and
was like huh, I'm. Done with this.
Let it go. Yeah, I'm done with this.

(46:30):
I think that's why people like The Pit a lot.
Was it the Pit? I forgot?
It's like this new medical show that's on HBO just got renewed
for a second season. Saying it's supposed to be
accurate. Yes, yes, it's actually pretty
accurate to the medical fields. I think it's OK.
Oh yeah, the Pit. Yeah, I see this.
Yeah, got to check that out. It's got high ratings. 8.9 Wait.
What does it? What does it come?

(46:50):
On that one, HBO. HBO.
Oh, HBO. OK, yeah.
Yeah, yeah. So they actually have said that
that one's actually accurate to the medical field.
And even sometimes they, I even saw a clip online of them
talking with people, like when something happens in a hospital
with a child and there's like suspicion if they're like foul

(47:12):
play at all. Like if, you know, the parents
were abusive or anything like that.
And they were actually, they hada social worker talk about how
like, yeah, that's pretty accurate of what happens in the
hospital and, like, some things that, you know, can pop off.
So everybody said it's good. I haven't seen it myself, but
everybody I've talked to actually has said it is good.

(47:32):
Yeah, if they tell me people tell me stuff like that, I'm
like, yeah, I'll check it out. You know I'm down and.
It's a dude from ERI mean, how can you go wrong?
Oh yeah. I got to ask this.
Oh damn it, I'm losing it. The guy with the cane?
That's an asshole house. Have you met any houses?
Well, you. Know you haven't met any grubby

(47:53):
ass way man. Oh, it's funny.
But they know everything. Well, it usually it's like they
think they know everything. I like they actually do.
But of course, and, and house was actually one of the first
ones that I got into because it was like they, they really tried

(48:14):
to get into it, like like try tobe accurate.
And the thing that was, was really cool about it, at least
in the beginning, was like you had the whole team of doctors
who would like work together, like try to doing different
things, trying to figure out what was going on.
And I remember just like imagining like what that could

(48:36):
be like. And then, you know, soon
realized, like some of the representations on the show was
like, like each each one of the doctors they showed had like a
different specialty, but they were like doing things that were
like, not in the scope of their own practice.
So that was like, you know, kindof like a yeah downer.

(48:59):
But it still was like, you know,like, you know, like I would say
a little bit motivational. Cool, at least in the very
beginning, like the first coupleseasons there.
You go. So does it like this is the, you
know, this doesn't have to do with anything like you feel.
I'm just curious like does having like certain settings

(49:23):
from movies and shows, like doesthat matter to you?
Like from where you are? Like for me, I'm in Minnesota
and we don't get a ton of settings in Minnesota, right?
We have like a very short list of movies and shows that are
actually based in our state. Like, does that mean anything to
you or does it like, does it translate anything?

(49:45):
You're like, oh, shit, like because everything either goes
through like New York, Los Angeles or like Florida, like
like one of those three or Texas.
Oh, yeah, you need a couple of Detroit joints in there.
And then all they do is like, it's all murder.
So it's like, oh, he's murdered.RoboCop.
Everybody dies. Beverly Hills, The thing He's
from Detroit. Oh yeah, and he leaves and goes

(50:07):
to Los. Angeles son of a bitch.
No, you know what I like the when, when that, when that comes
into consider, it comes into consideration sometimes, OK to
to the point where if I'm watching something and they're
like, they're like, let's see, they're supposed to be in New
York, right? Yeah.
And I, I try to check for thingsthat are like accurate.

(50:32):
So like if if they're driving right and they park on the
street right away, find a spot, I'm like, that's a lie.
Fake news, not accurate. You're not doing that in the
city. But he.
Hated men in black. Them motherfuckers always found
a parking parking spot. The men in black.
They did. Unless.

(50:54):
They were just making their own spots, you know, unless you
could see the sign where it says, you know, no parking with
like 50 different things on it. OK, it's accurate.
But if they just found like a regular spot, like no, that
that's not a thing or like what's what's the name of that
movie? Where where there it was.

(51:15):
It was the taking of taking of Pelham 1/2.
Three. Oh yeah, yeah.
Subway, I was like, Oh my God, Icould have been on that train.
But hopefully that doesn't happen.
Hopefully it never happens. But yeah, well, other than that,
you know, it's like some, some of the places I've had the
fortune of going to. So if it's a place that I know

(51:36):
like I'm looking for accuracy inthat place to like the did they
make an effort to make it an accurate representation?
Like I want to know because I I don't like when they when they
just, you know, like, oh, we're here.
But then it's not really like that.
Then, you know, might as well just tell us like, you know,
you're in Metropolis, OK? We know Metropolis is not real.
So, you know, that could be anything.

(51:57):
But don't say you're in this place and you're not really
there. You know, like they're deceiving
us. Like come on guys, you could do
better than that and do some research.
Doc is like this is bullshit. This is lies on lies.
They'd be a Mets fan, not a Yankees fan.
That's a shit man. Exactly.

(52:20):
Exactly. I've been to that donut shop.
Exactly. I know that bodega.
They got some good food over there.
That ain't the color of the cat in that bodega.
I know it is. Exactly, I got it down like that
to a science. You guys, it's the statistics in
his. Exactly.

(52:42):
It's great. It's getting bigger and.
Bigger. I can feel it.
I feel it. No, No.
No. No.
No. No.
No. No.
No. Exactly.
That's right. Love it.
Awesome. All right, well, I think we
could get into the let's do the show.
Let's get into the show. So Iron Heart, Ironheart follows

(53:03):
the character Ree Ree Williams, like I said before that she was
in Wakanda Forever. That was the first time we were
introduced to Ree Ree Williams and Ironheart.
So a little bit of back story, Ree Ree Williams, very smart,
very intelligent black woman went to MIT, was in there.

(53:25):
She was also doing some like hustling and stuff like that.
She would do like some of the white dudes homework or anything
like that for money and she'd begetting paid for it pretty good,
especially with MIT people, they'd be getting that money.
And so Natalie and then her her dad or actually Ronnie was they

(53:50):
were both shot in a drive by shooting.
And so yes, yes. And that is been her back story,
whether it be in the comic booksor in this iteration, they've
all passed away through, I guess, gang violence and stuff
like that. And so she's dealing with that

(54:13):
trauma that's well, then she also wants to escape that.
So like I said, she went to MIT instead of staying in Chicago
and going to like a university there and doing that.
So she wanted to get away from that.
And so she had the just that trauma kind of building.
And it's never, it was never really addressed like through

(54:36):
anything except for, but that's how superheroes usually do it,
right? They they all do it.
They all take out their trauma, they're hurt inside of them
through crime fighting or just just in general being a hero.
Now for this first scene where RiRi is in the junkyard.

(54:58):
So a big heist happened where? And then she's just her suit's
all messed up, or it was, and she's just going through a lot.
She's back home in Chicago. She's kind of cut off everybody
in her life until this point. And now she's talking with
Xavier. And then Xavier, who is

(55:21):
Natalie's brother, finally findsout that she somehow created
this AI version of Natalie, which pretty much at first Rhode
Island, Rhode Island was apprehensive about it.
She didn't. She was like, get the fuck away
from me. I don't want anything to do with

(55:42):
you at all, you weird AI thing. I don't know what you are.
But then she started slowly graduating to like, actually
liking the AI and appreciating it more.
But Xavier, obviously that we see in the scene was just like,
no, this is not right at all, which is very valid.

(56:02):
I mean, that's a valid feeling. Riri's mom immediately was just
like, cool, this is great. Yeah, you're, you're back and
all this stuff, you know, so. And she also said, can you make
one of her her husband who passed away?
Yeah. Which is like, you know, another

(56:23):
reaction to a situation like that.
Yes, I want my loved one back. I want mine.
So before we get into or actually no Doctor Akeem, what
would you? What is your thoughts on AI?
But then people also using AI asa form of therapy, whether or

(56:51):
not they're using it for themselves or maybe trying to
help others with it. What's your take on AI and
therapy at this current moment? Oh, lovely, lovely.
So my gut reaction to AI, it's still Skynet.
I still think about Terminator. I'm like, I'm looking at it.

(57:13):
I'm looking at it sideways. I'm like, slow down, stay, stay
over there. But I do think it actually
offers a lot of potential. There is a lot of possibilities
and whatnot. So I'll be honest, I did start
to use it a little bit. What I found it useful for was

(57:35):
things like like checking grammar and suggesting revisions
and things like that. Also like summarizing things
like, you know, if I have this this word limit for a proposal,
can you can you make it like less words?
And I found it useful for stuff like that.
But as far as like the way many people are using it, like, like,

(58:00):
you know, basically like a therapist, like a friend, I
don't think that it at this point anyway, he was really
designed for that, especially like a therapist, you know, or
even a friend for that matter. I mean, that's like, there's
like so many people in the world, like we have the option

(58:22):
to have real people as friends. But, you know, I, I know, like
we had a certain turn of events that kind of led many people
into that path. You know, what with so many
young people haven't had to dealwith COVID and the isolation
related to the shutdowns that forced us to do so many things

(58:44):
on the computer, like basically everything virtual.
And, you know, it's just, it's just sort of to me looks like
like almost like a natural progression that many people
would turn to this, you know, AIafter, after an experience like
that. But while it offers like while
the AI sub offers a lot of potential, I think it's like

(59:08):
something that in general peopleshould use cautiously, should
just be very judicious, judicious and mindful of
especially to like as I'm talking, I'm thinking about one
of the articles that came out not too long ago talking about
how there was, I believe it was a court order for the company,

(59:35):
one of the companies, I think itwas Chad GBT to save the
conversations or it was, it was something like that, which is
like, it doesn't seem like it's something that is that could be
problematic. But you know, I mean, I don't
know, like I'm hearing the extent to which people share
information on their, you know, like.

(59:58):
It's not, it's not encrypted like it.
They keep all the information, so all of it is being mined to
better train their robots and how to respond and all that.
It it's all kept. Where does it go?
Who knows, but it is all kept. Exactly.
So, and so many people are usingit too, because it's like, you

(01:00:19):
know, I find out like some people that I young people that
I work with and also other people that I know.
And they all just casually mentioned like, oh, by the way,
I was talking to, to ChatGPT andthey said this.
And I'm like, I'm like, OK, that's, you know, that's one way
to do it. But you know, you could also
talk to other people about the same things.

(01:00:40):
But I think part of it is like the they may not want to hear
what the other other people haveto say.
Or I mean, I mean, it's also probably easier to just talk to
a computer, you know, just, I don't know, but it is something
that we got to really be mindfulof, you know?

(01:01:01):
Pay attention to for sure me andSpence, I didn't really use it
much. Spence kind of put me on it.
It's it's changed a bunch of things for me to be able to open
a business and help me with documents and and formatting
consent forms, intake forms, right helps you all these
magnificent form where before you had to write it up.
Now I can have him write up a contract for me or consent for

(01:01:24):
him to talk to parents or to play video games with kids and
the parents blink of an eye. So I like that.
But when Spencer's talking aboutlike the talking to her for like
a therapy, get a little sussed about it.
I get a little sussed about it. We just had a big talk about it
at school, so we can get into that later.

(01:01:45):
But it's it's going to be more and more part of everything, doc
AI, writing, helping people write notes.
And I'm cool with that. I just get really sussed about
people leaning on it for any type of real, real support and
guidance. Yeah.
Exactly. Without appropriate measures and
guidelines in that thing to makesure it's not suggesting wild

(01:02:08):
shit. Yeah.
Right, because Spence with the Itold you, the robots are
supposed to like love you and support you and all this shit.
So what happens when the kids like, yeah, I want to die and
the robot's like, you know what?Let's look up 10 ways to die.
Like that's terrifying. Exactly.
Yeah. And we have stories like at
least, you know, at least that was the one case that was in.

(01:02:30):
Was it Florida? What I told you about, yeah.
Set Setzer. See How do you pronounce his
name? Sewell.
Sewell Setzer. It's.
I don't know, you asked me. The wrong guy died.
Yeah, AI tell me how to pronounce his name.
Let's see, Bobby. And I think also with that, we

(01:02:53):
have this conversation all the time.
Just like if you use something too much, it's always going to
be bad no matter what you do. And in this case with AI, it's
like if you use it too much as such of a crutch, it's going to
backfire at some point because it doesn't know.
It doesn't know. And the problem is, is that I
don't want it to ever like know because then at that point it is

(01:03:18):
a conscience. It has its own mind.
And then that at that point, it's just a person that knows
everything. And so, and then that's when we
get into Skynet, that's when we get into iRobot knowledge,
iRobot, right? It knows it.
It knows everything. And who's controlling that
thing, Right, Right. So I'm my own identity so that
it leads us into some weird waters, kid.

(01:03:41):
Exactly. We don't need that.
Weird waters, no? There's going to have to be a
lot of laws and regulations on this stuff for sure.
They're going to get sued at some point.
Trap GBT, like the company's going to get sued at some point.
I know there's probably like some type of clauses that they
have in there, but I feel like as time goes on and things start
happening, I think they are going to be sued.

(01:04:04):
And they're also going to have to give up certain things or
they're going to have to try to take away certain things from
what it knows because it's it's getting a lot heavier and
heavier each update that they have.
So. I'm going to ask some more
questions in a second. I have one random thing.
So there's a lot of things that is dope about AII got one couple

(01:04:26):
a lot of discussions and arguments, right?
So there's this little thing that's meant to help you record
lectures for like school, right?And then the AI records it,
right? It's all in this little thingy,
this little doodad, and then it suits out the bullet points in
the summaries in like notes for you to like help you study.
Homeboy was like, I'm about to have this during one of our
arguments so that we can actually figure out what the
hell we're talking about becausewe're too heated and can't,

(01:04:48):
there's too much emotional deregulation.
I'm like, that's not fucking genius.
That way. It's like bullet by billet.
What are we trying to say and what's actually being done?
I thought it was dope. I've got some clients that put
their journals into it, all the craziness, what's in the
journal, and then they'll spit me all the the bullet points
from the journal. I think that's very appropriate.

(01:05:09):
Doc, have you had anyone use AI in this type of ways?
I'm talking about you in like a maybe a healthier way or no.
No, I, I haven't heard that yet,but I, I wouldn't be surprised
if I mean, I, I would hope, you know, hope so.
Yeah. So with this scene with Xavier

(01:05:34):
finding out that now his sister is just part of this AI program
now, what do you find it like? We've had so many different
iterations, whether it be like through like Harry Potter and
things like that. Bringing people back from the

(01:05:56):
dead is never isn't, it doesn't work out right?
Because they're gone. And that's they need to stay
that way because that's just howlife works, right?
And now we're taking a step where we think that that person
can go on for even longer and longer.

(01:06:18):
Well, what are your thoughts on that?
And like what, like did you would you ever do that to, to
have a loved one just come back from that?
Like that's a tough thing. Oh, yeah, absolutely.
I mean, I think that like, I totally understand the appeal of
that because once you lose somebody, you know, it's like

(01:06:41):
all you can have is, is like whatever memories you might
have, like the, the, you know, whatever experiences you live
with them, hearing their voice, I think.
But it's like, you know, they'regone and it's final, but you
really, really want to see and, or hear from them again.
But as far as like, you know, making that actually happen,

(01:07:05):
it's like, it feels like unnatural.
It feels like a disruption to the, you know, the circle of
life, the cycle of life. It feels like, you know, it's
supposed to, you know, it's supposed to go like a certain
way. Like that's how it's been going.
It'd be strange to to have that happen in real life, you know,

(01:07:29):
even like at this point, like seeing an AI representation of
the, you know, it'd be differentif it was just like seeing old
videos, like old images, you know, OK, like we lived that
experience or they lived that experience.
But then to see something completely new, different, I

(01:07:51):
have a feeling I'll be like Xavier.
Wasn't that seem like Oh no. I'm like, it's true.
So you probably wouldn't have AIreplicate a loved one as of
right now. We'll see what happens in the
future. Start losing people now.
You might change your mind, you know.
Hold up now. Exactly.
I mean, you know, yeah, I don't know it at this point.

(01:08:15):
It does seem a little tough. I don't know for all of us
followers, us y'all followers, what would y'all do?
Write us in the comments? Shoot us Adm on YouTube,
Instagram. What would y'all do?
Spencer would no for you? No, I think it's a no for me.
I also watch this show. It's called the The Good Place,

(01:08:37):
right? And it's about these people,
whether they go to, like, heavenor hell, stuff like that.
And at the end of the show, spoiler alert, everybody's in
heaven right there. A lot.
Everybody's in heaven. And they're like, yeah.
But then they figure out that like, what?
Not like what now? What do we do now?

(01:08:58):
Yeah. And they have people, they give
people a choice of when you are ready that you feel like you've
done everything that you wanted to in heaven.
You can just go into this void and then that's it.
There's nothing, Yeah, nothing after that.
You don't have to worry about itbecause in a way, living that
long is a type of suffering because you're just not.

(01:09:21):
You don't want to be here all the time.
You just want to be at peace. You don't want, you don't want
to stay anymore. And so I thought that was a
great representation as well. And I think that that also
speaks volumes to this as well. I think you have to leave people
where they are and just if you have those memories, fantastic.
But that doesn't mean that they should be coming back to where

(01:09:45):
they were because guess what? How are you?
How do you grow as a person? Because loss makes you grow as a
person as well. It sucks.
It really sucks, but at the end of the day, what good is it and
how long are they going to be there for, right?
Yeah, they say it gives meaning to life, right?

(01:10:07):
Having no, there's an end point.Spence, do you see the new
season of Invincible or no? No.
No, OK, then the other new season, right?
There's the the one guy I don't the immortal and there's
alternate reality where the immortal is like alive, but he's
like gone fully psychotic because he's lived too long and
he had to take over this one universe that he didn't want to.

(01:10:27):
And he starts murdering everyonejust to get invincible to come
back and end his life. And Invincible ends up killing
him in that episode to put him out of his misery.
He's like, I'm sick of this. Everyone I've ever loved has
died, right? It's like horrible.
I could see where it could be therapeutic in some ways, but
Doc, I think we're so far away from having AI to help us with

(01:10:48):
any type of trauma responses, things like that.
I don't even know how you would do that.
Then you know how trippy that would be.
Like someone passes, then you like you see them ten 20-30
years laters in hologram, then you're talking to him.
I don't know. Yeah, that that feels trippy to
me as well. I feels like that would cause
him psychosis. Yes.

(01:11:09):
Wild it. Can trigger that for.
Sure. So for the next scene, the
second scene, we have Rhode Island, Rhode Island and her mom
takes her back to the garage where where her aunt or where
her dad and then also her friendpassed away.

(01:11:30):
They she's at a point now where she's still not like fully in
like she doesn't really like theAI version of Natalie as yet.
But as soon as she starts seeingjust these memories of her dad
and her and how she got the nameIron Head, it goes a really long

(01:11:53):
way. And we had something similar to
this in Captain America Civil War, where Iron Man, Tony Stark
created this augmented reality where he could revisit memories
or he could make up the memoriesof how he wished it could have
gone. So this was before his parents

(01:12:15):
died. He had this memory and he
wanted, yeah, he wanted to say certain things to his parents
before they left that he didn't get a chance to actually say.
Yeah. And then and then they use that
same AI technology in Spider Man, No Way Home and Mysterio.

(01:12:35):
And then he uses and abuses it. Yeah.
He abuses that and then and thenhe causes chaos throughout
Europe. So it that movie also goes to
show like this can be abused as well.
Even though it was a great moment and a great sentiment of
just being something where you could live, relive like a good

(01:12:58):
memory, or you could try to haveit as a therapeutic moment to
try to say the things that you didn't, which is great.
But then there's always that point of like, who's going to
actually abuse this system? And what's too far?
I like the way Tony used it. Like you said, it was very
therapeutic for him to express themselves.
We do that often in therapy. Hey, you talk to that quote UN

(01:13:20):
quote, empty chair, this other person, what would you say?
I can see it in that therapeuticuse.
Right, right. Yeah.
And and that's kind of where we are with this scene where the AI
version of Natalie is using it to also show that she can bring
up those good memories. It's not just about the bad.
And then through this, RiRi can actually have a therapeutic

(01:13:44):
moment or a moment of realization that there were some
that you don't have to harp on the bad moments.
It's also talking about the goodones.
So, Doctor King, when we are talking about people who have a
lot of trauma, a lot of things that they're keeping in, would

(01:14:06):
you find this a good way to actually help maybe bring out
those certain emotions? Or if not, like what are some
techniques that you use to help those with those traumatic
experiences, especially young people who are who have gone
through these things? OK, so the one thing I have to
start with is the name of that technology by narrowly augmented

(01:14:30):
retro framing or BARF. Yes, barf.
That's right. Got to come up with a better
acronym, he said. But the serial was like what the
fuck man he just called my shit barf.
Like exactly. She's like, I hate Tony Stark.
Barf, I hate Tony Stark. Tony Stark will give you reasons
to hate him. He gave a lot of people reasons
too. That's true.
But oh man, while we, we're not there yet, if, if we have

(01:14:57):
something like that, I think that, you know, like that could
be really useful. But as far as like in the
current state, in the, in the, in the, in the modern era, when
I'm working with people directly, it's, you know, try to
focus on building rapport really.

(01:15:21):
And, and I say rapport is like the the biggest thing, the most
important thing, and it's something that is continuously
worked on. And you know, like from from the
very beginning, throughout the whole treatment process.
And really just kind of that sets the stage for people

(01:15:42):
getting to a point of comfort in, you know, sharing
information, getting to that point.
And some of the things that are really helpful for working with
young people is like, like I said, when possible, try to make
it fun. I when I say fun, I mean like,

(01:16:02):
you know, particularly with younger kids, but I'm down the
door with teenagers if they're down, like using board games or
doing something like drawing or coloring, like corporate art.
Music definitely helps, I think because you know, like, like I

(01:16:22):
mentioned before, like listeningto the music of other people.
So then I'll sit there, especially if it's something
that I'm here for the first time, I'm really trying to
listen to the lyrics. And then, you know, somebody
will say something and I'll be like, when the song is done, try
to ask, like, you know, what is it about this song that appeals

(01:16:44):
to you? Like why do you like it?
Or, and sometimes even get more specific, like they don't, let's
say they mentioned, you know, something happened in the song.
Like have you ever seen anythinglike that?
Have you ever gone through anything like that?
And things like that can open the can of worms, can open up

(01:17:05):
that dialogue and what else? What about when people are going
to like like like Spencer was saying, like the immense grief
or trauma of losing someone? How, how, how is it that you
work with them? Like bad depression could be
PTSD, right? They were fucking shot and
killed. What would be your modalities of

(01:17:25):
ways you would work with them? Or if there's certain
medications depending on their symptomologies, like well, how
you doing with someone with extreme grief and extreme
depression? Yeah, that's those are, that's a
great. Question or extreme anger
because of the grief. I would say I would like I tried
to, you know, help them identifywhat do they feel is

(01:17:49):
specifically or like what, what,what kind of symptoms like that
might be going on. Do they feel is is the biggest
burden that they feel is the most annoying?
And so an example would be like one of the common ones related
to sleep. Somebody's like, oh, I'm having

(01:18:10):
difficulty sleeping right. And so I'll try to figure out,
you know, make sure that they'refrom their descriptions.
There's nothing that that's likemedically could be going on,
which you know, happens sometimes like may identify like
sleep apnea or something like that.
But if that, if there are no risk factors for that and that

(01:18:30):
hasn't been identified, then I'll be maybe looking to help
treat that. Or sometimes, let's say, if it
is a situation like PTSD, the person may say like they don't
like the fact that they're really jumpy.
They really sort of are reactiveto sounds or reactive to certain

(01:18:54):
situations that they feel is in excess.
So then for something like that,I'll be, you know, offering to
help out like with medication, like there's some medications
like the one that's coming to mind is Aprazosin.
That's a, that's one of the onesthat's really useful, helpful
to, to manage like when your nervous system is overactive, if

(01:19:19):
you have nightmares or, you know, and then that could help
calm it down a little bit. And, or if somebody's having
sleep issues, if they haven't taken melatonin before, we'll
start with that. Or, and if they, if they might
have taken that and it doesn't work, you know, then we'll see
like what whatever the comfort level is and, you know, go

(01:19:42):
through different options As forwhat might be helpful, like
hydroxyzine or mirtazapine, things like that.
And I find that if like when thewhen the more.
Depressing or major concerns areaddressed, like if it's

(01:20:04):
something that I could, I could address with medication and it,
and it actually works out that Ithink that helps to build
rapport and, and that that'll really help to sort of help the
process of dealing with the trauma, dealing with the grief.
And I'm fortunate enough that most of the people that I see

(01:20:27):
are also eat, you know, they also meet with therapist as
well. So they'll get like specific
like trauma therapy, trauma focused CBT, cognitive behavior
therapy or trauma focus cognitive process therapy and,
and, or sometimes eat like EMDR,eye movement sensitization

(01:20:50):
therapy. And it if you know, like I think
the, the, the best outcomes for young people, especially just
when it, it, it's in combination, like if we're
working together, collaborating on it.
But I do also like I'm very muchinterested in supporting the the

(01:21:12):
whole entire process and then offering an extra layer of
support aside from just the medication.
Just given space to maybe talk about things in a different way
or talk about other things that may be impacted by that sort of
that maybe not directly in the scope of like the targeted

(01:21:35):
treatments. Nice, nice, nice.
Do you ever have any resistance?I know you work with a lot of
adolescents. I assume it's a lot of black and
brown folks too. You get a resistance from that
population. I assume If they're coming to
you, maybe they've already worked to do resistance with a
therapist, but maybe if they're coming to you, maybe it's not
referred from a therapist. Maybe it's a different type of

(01:21:56):
triage that comes to you and thepractices you've worked at.
I wonder how you navigate that specifically when it comes to
like this trauma. There's PTSD, there's grief,
there's anger, there's hostility.
You talked about your book. What was the title of your book
again? Oh, it's not just bad kids.
The adversity and disruptive behavior.
Link. Right.
So like, I feel like there's some medicine in there too,

(01:22:17):
maybe someday or there's a lot. I wonder how you tie in these
worlds of this, oh, that's a young black woman that's going
through some shit and it has some aggression and hostility
that is coming out towards your mom in that scene.
Oh, oh, yeah. That's, that's, I'm glad you put
that all together, because I'd say like, like in general,

(01:22:38):
there's sort of a layer of resistance with adolescence, I
would say. And when I say a, a, a layer of
resistance, I mean, in the senseof part of normal development as
far as like, I'm, you know, becoming my own person.
I'm asserting my identity, trying to figure it out,

(01:23:00):
asserting my independence. And also like, kind of like a
little bit of anti authority. And then when you add in like
trauma and, and a lot of times like the people we've seen,
it'll be like layers of trauma. And then it'll be trauma from,
you know, not just like things that might have happened to me,
like randomly on accident in my life, but also like systems

(01:23:27):
trauma, trauma from like being in the school system or
different negative interactions with authority figures.
Those are things we got to, you know, we might have upfront to
have to deal with. And I would say I do my best to
work with them to meet them where they are AT.

(01:23:51):
And I also don't take or do my best to avoid taking like a like
a paternalistic kind of view. Like I really try to meet them
at the level and work with them where they are and, and just
kind of respect, you know, wherethey are too.
So sometimes like, let's say someone comes and they're like,

(01:24:14):
you know, usually if they have something going on, it's, it's,
it's obvious. Like you don't know what it is,
but it's obvious. And when I say it's obvious, I
mean like you can get a feeling of like tension, like if
somebody's angry, even if they're not saying anything or
really not doing much, they're just kind of like to themselves

(01:24:37):
or kind of shut down. It's like you just get this
feeling like something's going on with them and just try to
like gently encourage them to open up.
And I don't have an expectation that is going to happen today or
even after a couple times. I I try to try my best to be

(01:24:58):
like, you know, let them take the lead, like encourage them to
be in control. And I would say I find like, you
know, those kind of strategies really helpful because I think
people like, they really respondto that.
Well, Try not to talk down to them.

(01:25:19):
Yeah, like things like that. Yeah, a lot of my clients feel
like the doctors talk down to them a lot or downplay their
symptomologies. Exactly.
They do, they do. It's wild, dude.
It's and I'm like, damn, sometimes they'll be saying out
of pocket shit too. And I'm like, damn, that's wild.
I'm like this sexist as hell. My God, like this is this is.
Exactly like, wait, what? What, like, Oh my God.

(01:25:43):
Yeah. Thanks for answering that.
Oh yeah, of course. I mean, I honestly like, I
think, I think of, of the peoplewho have like the most kind of
resistance as like, like they need, they need the most
support. They need the most.
And, and like they should have people who are interested and,

(01:26:08):
and want to meet them where they're at.
Because you know, it's like, like a lot of times people, the
ones who are supposed to be professionals will kind of take
things personally. And, you know, it's like, well,
we're just meeting for the firsttime, so it can't be about me.
Even if they come and curse me out.

(01:26:28):
I'm like, I mean, I didn't, I didn't do anything.
So I. Don't like your baldy?
It's not about me. Yeah, I'll be laughing with
them, especially if they say something funny.
It's it's I'll be, I can't, I'm not going to hold it in.
If it's funny, I'm going to laugh.
So they like that. So.

(01:26:49):
But yeah, it's like, you know, you got to, you know, you got to
be like, like, like, I'll say like act like we're, we're all
on planet Earth, Like we're, we're all in the real world.
You know, like, like people go through things and, you know,
some people go through a lot more than others.
Especially like if, you know, ifI know some things about their

(01:27:11):
background, like I know they've been through things.
Like if I know, like, let's say,oh, this person was in was in
one of those systems like fostercare or juvenile detention and
that's all I know. I'm like, OK, well, some
something terrible happened thathad them in that situation.

(01:27:32):
So, you know, at a minimum, likethere's something that is
probably impacting them that, you know, they may may not want
to discuss. And, you know, we don't, we
don't really need to push that. We can just try to get a sense
of if there's anything we might be able to do right now to help
them and take it from there. Yeah.

(01:27:54):
Yeah, yeah. Thank you.
So we have this thing where we forget a lot of good memories if
we go through a lot some bad things, right?

(01:28:14):
And so that's kind of what RhodeIsland, Rhode Island is going
through with this scene. She really remembered a lot of
like the bad and traumatized things.
But there were a lot of great moments that happened with her
and Ronnie and with her and Natalie that she she just forgot
because those darker memories just kind of took hold.

(01:28:39):
When we talk about like some of these people who have these bad
memories, how do we get it so that the good memories can go up
front instead of having those bad memories in there?
That she was so difficult. Yeah.
That she was wild. Yeah, I struggle with.

(01:29:00):
Yeah, it's tough, I think. I think really if they're able
to get to a place where they're able to get in treatment and
then, you know, hopefully the person connects to someone else
that they feel like like this isa good match because it has it's

(01:29:23):
really starts with that like A at the core.
And then once, once we're able to, you know, get past that
overtime, continuing to work on it, you know, get trying to
support, get into a better place.
Eventually, I think like for most people, we'll be able to,

(01:29:45):
to hopefully unlock those, thosegood ones, those key moments.
And it's, it's, it is tough though, because like with, you
know, depending on the circumstances that, of what
happened, how it happened and onthe extent, it's like it, it

(01:30:06):
really can be like a cage. It really can be like a prison.
And it's, it's tough for people,you know, it's really, it's
really tough. But thankfully, you know, there,
there are treatments available and treatments that work.

(01:30:26):
You know, it's just a matter of making the right connections,
people to the treatment, making it make sure it's available and
everyone having being able to have access to it, which is not
where we are. Today, it's a tough spot, yeah.
We going we going to get there someday.
Eventually, eventually, we'll get a better healthcare system.

(01:30:48):
Exactly. Healthcare, yeah, we need that.
Jesus, no, dude, Spence, it's it's Wildman like you.
It depending on what the trauma is like doc was saying it's it's
so nuanced. So if it's like a horrible
accident, maybe they seen it, maybe they witnessed it right.
And so they got to be at a stable position to where they
can even revisit those things because it could be too re

(01:31:09):
traumatizing, re triggering, deregulating.
When I was young in my practice,I had doc.
I have people like bawling theireyes out, like decompensating,
like just full on regressing. And I asked my boss, like, what
the what's going on? And she was like, yeah, man, the
kids ain't ready for this. Like, you maybe see where the
trauma is and what you need to talk about and where to go

(01:31:31):
systematically. But they are not ready.
They do not have the skills, They are not regulated.
They're not healthy enough to revisit those darker memories so
that they can find the good onesand, and embrace those and show
gratitude and all that. I was like, well, why aren't
they? It's like, I don't know, Nas, I
you're not them. I'm like, these kids are soft,
man. Fuck these kids.

(01:31:52):
Jesus, I'm not, I'm not bullshitting.
Like that's the one I thought when in in the beginning, right?
I'm like, let's just dive in right now.
Dive in deep. I see this shit.
Let's tie it up. Let's cauterize this wound.
Keep moving. That's not how it works.
No, that's right. Nope.
Nope. Nope, That's, you know, I can't
relate to that. So I'm like thinking like back
like, because, you know, you go through the training and

(01:32:14):
everything, but then what ends up happening in practice is the
real people that, you know, I have to see on my own.
You know, even if you have, eventhough you have like supervision
and everything, still like it's not like, you know, you have
somebody on your shoulder in a moment.
So it's like you're there just trying to like figure it out.

(01:32:37):
But like the the cases that you're seeing are like curve
balls. Like I didn't see that in the
book. I didn't see that in the book.
I didn't see that. And I'm like, what am I supposed
to do with that? I don't know, I know, you know,
it's tough, it's tough, but thankfully I got, you know, we,
we, we got to a better place where it's like even with the

(01:32:59):
curveballs, it's like, you know,we don't always have it, you
know, 100% exact answer, but it's, it's better now to be able
to to, to kind of manage it likeOK, or recognize like, OK, when
you start inching a certain direction, like OK, that's a
little bit too much now. So let me not go there.
You know, we can just move on tosomething else or, you know,

(01:33:21):
revisit that later instead of like, because I also remember
like, like trying to go in like.Yeah.
You know, it's like. You can't do whatever you don't.
You don't have to do that, and you also don't have.
To you don't have. To urgency like doesn't have to
be done, but. A lot of therapists pushed, man,

(01:33:41):
I, I had a couple folks recentlythat are like, dude, I'm crying
in every session. Like I don't want to do therapy
anymore. So like, I don't want to reach
out to you. And I'm like, homie, we're not
going to be crying every session.
Like I'm not going to be deregulating you.
We're going to do stuff in session to be more affirming.
We're going to talk in a different way.
You're going to be fidgeted and playing with stuff, right?
I know how to pay attention to pivot you if needed.

(01:34:03):
I'm not just going to let you spiral on this OCD in this
misery, in this trauma. It's all right.
We talk, we talk, we talk. And this one client is like, I
didn't even want to talk today. I said, why not?
She's like, I'm terrified. Like why the fuck are you
terrified? You've known me for like a
couple months now. I'm not about to hurt you, kid.
And she's just steal the trauma from being with these therapists

(01:34:24):
of pushing, pushing, pushing fucks you up.
So we pivoted a couple conversations multiple times.
I tried to do like, what are some good memories from your
childhood? And it was so polluted with all
the bad memories that it was hard to identify any of the good
stuff. It was so hard.
And I tried and I tried and thenboom is like bullying, neglect,

(01:34:45):
isolation, being fat. And I was like, Jesus Christ,
kid. I felt sad for them.
Now Jesus Christ is like, why? And so we had a really, really
tough session. Now I'm scared that they're not
going to want to come back the following week because of like
we tried to find the good ones and it just polluted.
So like iron hearts here, iron heads.

(01:35:08):
I think it's magnificent that not robot, but I don't know what
was called. Her name was RiRi.
What was the AI called? Natalie.
Natalie. I love the way in which she used
that moment to be like, look, this is this is magic.
This is beautiful. Look at this magnificent memory
and how much goodness and joy and happiness was in this

(01:35:30):
relationship. And then she's like, I love
Chicago and I love this, right? It started to reinvigorate that
passion and that love. It's wild.
It always reminds me too, like The Lion King, when Rafiki has
him look into the water, he's like, I don't want to.
And he's like, tell me what you see.
He's like, I see nothing. It's like, no, this is what I

(01:35:51):
see. This is what I see.
It's what a therapist does. It's tough being a caregiver and
a provider. Very tough being a psychiatrist
too. If you don't have one of us in
your corner, and if I don't haveone of you in my corner, when my
kids are deregulated, I'm screwed too.
It's a great tandem. You got any more questions,

(01:36:12):
Spence? No, no.
Should be good. Should be good.
Any any more season you want to put on this clip doc?
Season, oh, season, season. That's a good question.
I didn't even. I should have been thinking
about that more. I would say no.

(01:36:39):
I really hope that, you know, more people can be advocates for
healthcare, children's mental health, especially, you know, so
many kids are out there going through it and it's you know,
it's it's really tough out there.
You know, it's, it's, you know, times are changing and we we got

(01:37:04):
to ourselves as a society evolved to meet the needs of the
changing times and just kind of do what we can to sort of
prevent and mitigate the harm that's out there.
And, you know, unfortunately there, there's really just so
much of it, you know? Yeah, for real.

(01:37:27):
All right, so Doctor Hakeem, do you want to give out some of
your plugs where people can findyou?
What you doing? All that stuff?
Sure, sure. I'll be on social media,
Instagram and X under score DOC under score AK which is like doc

(01:37:48):
hawk DOC. AK, there you go.
Inspired by the doc, but you know.
All villains, man, All villains.I just want to be clear with
you. They're all.
Villains. All spider man villains.
Oh, OK. I promise I'm not a villain in
real life. OK.

(01:38:10):
I'm only about, you know, what can we do to to.
To. Really.
Exactly. Yeah.
And what else do I have any, I mean, I have AI have a book that
anybody who has university access, you can access it on
Science Direct database. Not just bad kids.

(01:38:33):
The adversity and disruptive behaviour link.
And yeah, I was really, you know, interested in
understanding the perspective where young people who happen to
be in juvenile detention, like what happened in their lives,
how did they get there? Why try to unpack all of that?

(01:38:56):
And I say going forward, still have that interest.
But I'm thinking more about like, you know, what do we do
about it? Like what can we do to to really
address slash prevent circumstances like that?

(01:39:17):
And I say a lot of what I do is is like working towards that.
Any resources out in New York that you want to promote a shout
out that you work with or that you know you send a lot of
humans to? Oh yeah, well, no, I mean, the,
the main agency that I work for the New York family, there's
there's mental community mental health resources and also

(01:39:41):
resources for foster care mentalhealth.
So, you know, by all means, you know, let's say people looking
for resources in the community, by all means, they they have a
lot of that. And you know, I guess that's
that'd be about. It OK.

(01:40:02):
All right. Well, thank you so much, Doctor
Keem Marsh for being on. We really appreciate your time
and yeah, hope to see you again sometime.
Thank you. Thanks again for the invite.
Yeah. This was great huh?
Love the conversation. You know, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And. Then we got to highlight, yeah,
re re. I didn't mention it before, but

(01:40:23):
like, you know, one of the reasons why, aside from me
actually appreciating the story and the representations of
mental health and, you know, real issues that real people
deal with, like in the in the community before the show even
came out, it got review bombed. We.
Didn't even get to talk about itand.

(01:40:44):
It was like, you know, there wasall this hate like literally
before the show came out. Like how you off, you know, off
the cuff just like, Nope, Nope, I'm not like come on, come on,
come on, dawg, come on. Got to give something a chance
first, you know, but anyway, youknow, and, and even like some of

(01:41:06):
the promotion for it, you know, wasn't as much as some of the
other things like what what's what's going on?
Oh, be for real? Yeah, it wasn't much promotion I
saw. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah. They promoted the shit out of
she Hawk and a few other bomb terrible shows.
I'm. Saying, yeah, they lost.
Yeah, that's why they can't promote it, because they lost so
much money on those shows. I know.

(01:41:29):
Exactly. Exactly.
Also, there's a bit of racism and sexism in there too, but
that's a different story for a different.
Day, of course. Yeah, we're not.
They're not going to promote some.
Action, that's part of it, unfortunately.
But yeah, but no, it was, it wasthe themes and everything that
they explored and the storyline like these are real issues that
people are dealing with. So I'm glad they touched on it.
And, you know, it's, it's something that could also be,

(01:41:53):
you know, potentially brought to, to treat, although, you
know, I'm not sure how many of the kids would have seen that,
but you know, hopefully they did.
Please check it out, check it out.
Or if not, if they haven't seen it and if there's something in
there that you know, that they could relate to, it could be
suggested and then we could talkabout it, you know, so like it
could be discussed in the future.

(01:42:14):
So. All right.
Fantastic. Well, with that, I'm Spencer.
That's in the house. Different special pocket.
Everyone peace, much love and remember, take care of
yourselves. Or don't.
It's completely up to you. It's up to them, boss.
That's right, it is up to them. We can't force.
Them, it's up to them.

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Why Representation in Mental Health Matters | Marvel's Ironheart x Dr. Akeem Marsh

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Why Representation in Mental Health Matters | Marvel's Ironheart x Dr. Akeem Marsh