April 1, 2024 • 37 mins
Have you ever felt like a chameleon, blending into the background of different cultures and communities? That's a reality for many within the Oromo culture, as we unpack in this episode.
Childhood experiences can be like invisible threads, guiding our adult relationships and self-perceptions in ways we often don't realize. We explore these profound influences in this episode, delving into how memories of inclusion or exclusion can shape our interactions and even our tendency to please others at the expense of ourselves.
It's a candid look at the pressures of family expectations, the emotional toll of people-pleasing, and the delicate dance of growing up without losing oneself along the way. As we peel back the layers, we uncover the critical importance of setting boundaries and the cultural nuances that complicate this process.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
As-salamu alaykum, welcome to Difficult
Conversations where we tackletaboo topics in a safe space
through empowerment andeducation.
The information on this podcastis for informational purposes
only and should not beconsidered professional mental
health advice.
I think I really want to getinto kind of Oromos as a group
(00:27):
and our chameleon tendenciesBefore we get started.
I think one of the reasons whyI want to talk about this is for
the longest I was working withthis with an Oromos sister for
like I think six months or so,and she was like I thought she
was Somali, she thought I wasSomali, and this whole six
(00:48):
months we were like I don't know, not not really unsure of each
other, um, and then finally Idon't know what it was, I think
I was on the phone, uh, with mymom or something.
I was talking to Oromo and andthen she's like oh, wow, wow,
oromoda, and I was like, yeah,you know, and I think this
happens to me personally a lotand I and I've always wondered
(01:10):
like why that is the case andwhy we tend to I guess I mean,
for lack of a better word ourchameleons whenever we get
ourselves into situations,whether it's like when we're
around somalis or when we'rearound um other ethiopians.
We just kind of blend in andit's just our nature a lot of
(01:32):
the times, um, we don't like torock the boat, we don't like to
uh, challenge status quo, um.
So I really like just want totalk about that and how that
affects you personally in theworkspace, how that affects you
in relationships and in likeevery dynamic of life.
So yeah.
What do you guys think aboutthat?
Speaker 2 (01:55):
I'm actually curious why don't you ask her Like are
you Odom or Somali?
Speaker 1 (01:59):
I don't because I feel like I don't know, like
because a lot of the time peoplealways assume I'm Somali and.
I get really like.
I'm just like no, I'm not, youknow and and I don't want to do
that to anybody, okay you don'twant to offend yeah, I didn't
want not necessarily offended,because I don't think, I don't
know, I don't know what it was,but I was just like, oh, maybe
she's not like I just, but I dosay, you know okay that's really
(02:22):
interesting, because I mean,for me I wouldn't, kind of I
would ask, uh, first andforemost, and whether, first of
all, I'm always assumed that I'mSomali too.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Um, when that happens , it's like they get really
offended that I'm not yeah, butI and then the aspect of like
when we just kind of assimilatein a background, yeah, related
to our people.
I feel like historically, beforewe even get into that, I wanted
to kind of assimilate in abackground related to our people
.
I feel like historically,before we even get into that, I
wanted to kind of make adisclaimer a little bit about
how the conversation that we mayhave today might be triggering
(02:54):
for some people.
We're going to talk aboutpeople pleasing and what that
means collectively andindividually and how that
affects us.
So if any of this topic isfeeling very triggering, please
take a step back and kind oftake care of yourself, so that
way that you are kind of meetingyour needs in this conversation
(03:14):
.
But I think, historically ourpeople, I would say is because
we have been always the servantright, we were told to be a
certain way in the land of thecountry that we're from, we're
supposed to behave a certain wayand even when it comes to
conflict arising, generalconflict, now I'm talking about
outside of you know, familydynamic, but outside in the
(03:37):
community, like the globalcollective.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
And, for example, like we're the first time Oromo
people can only speak theirlanguage in Ethiopia freely,
without no restriction.
Behind it was 1990s, right?
So before that you also can'tspeak Oromo.
So if that aspect of thegeneral background is that, how
(04:01):
do you think internal inside thehouse conversation is going to
be like when it comes to the wayyou're raised?
Don't talk like this, don'ttalk outside like this, don't
say this, don't walk like this,don't behave like this, because
if you do, you're going to getin trouble by the actual
government, the system, whateveryou may call.
So then parent whatevergeneration, historical and then
(04:24):
parent whatever generation,historical trauma, psychological
stuff.
They raise all their kids tojust not challenge the status
quo, not to challenge whereyou're from, even if you can't
even tell people you're Oromo,because there is that fear there
still, even though there are,like younger generation Oromos,
like so proud, so freely theycan say it like I'm Oromo, I'm
(04:46):
this, I you know, I love that.
But for if you ask your oldersiblings, they're a little bit
shy about the way they likepresent that the way that they
talk about it the way they evenlike in conversation at work,
for example, they intend to kindof hide behind the scenes and
just allow everything to takeplace.
And so because of thathistorical experiences I can
(05:07):
always relate it to trauma andwe intend to just avoid not
wanting to be the center ofattention, like I don't want to
be.
I don't want people to noticeme, so I want to hide a little
bit.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
So, yeah.
No, I I was listening to youboth.
No, I was listening to you bothand a couple of things was kind
of going in and out of my brain.
One was like the concept of thehistorical concept of how Odomo
people, specifically, have beenforced into chameleonism,
(05:42):
almost right.
Forced into chameleonism almostright, like, because you are
told not to speak your language,you are told that, um, you were
inferior, you were, you know,and even like the being cool is
like being amara, right, likespeaking amara, oh, she speaks.
And even when you speak amaraas a normal person and if you
have an accent, you're calledgala, yes, right, oh, she's so
(06:03):
far like whatever, whatever,especially not these.
But when I was back home Iremember you know people, not,
not, this is not necessarilyjust for ormo people, for even
other tribes that are um speak.
When they are speaking amharicand they speak it, even they're
speaking it fluently.
Just, they have an accent oftheir culture.
(06:23):
They are considered she doesn'tknow very, you know she's not
cool she's whatever so you areforced into chameleonism and
then that comes, and then yourparents and your family wanting
you to be better, to besuccessful.
It's basically like the in inamerica if you bring you here,
it's code switching right yesbeing able to put like, if you
(06:45):
are a black person, you speak ina speaking slang and or you
have a certain dialect that youspeak in, then you code, switch
into this professionalism right?
professional language,professional way of speaking
that is technically umeurocentric right so you speak
in a way that is monotone, thatis like you know deeper, and you
(07:07):
speak.
You choose your diction welland whatever the case might be,
so that you can remove yourselfas far from who you are to meet
their needs.
So, and this happens to everyonethat has been oppressed in any
way at any point by anybody,yeah, right this is not just an
(07:29):
autumnal phenomenon, but when itcomes to us and in our culture,
we also speak about, um, it'svery.
Take this concept ofchameleonism and then bring it
to a collective culture thatcares so much about what the
community thinks of them, rightso?
And then, when the community isan oppressive community, right,
(07:52):
and I say that like, if the wayyou talk is to be, uh, demure,
right, like if you're a girl,you have to be demure, you have
to speak in a way that's likesoft, you have to be seen but
not heard yeah kind of thingvery um.
And then also, if you areexpressive, if you are, and then
(08:13):
you are balagay like, oh, Idon't know, why are you getting
into?
You know people's like adultpeople's business yeah so
consistently.
Since childhood, you're told tobe in the background yeah,
being.
You're taught that being in thebackground, hiding your voice,
lowering your voice, um, nothaving an opinion is is the way
(08:33):
to be a good girl, or a good guy, or not a good guy, but a good
girl mostly golden boy, goldenvoice, right, oh he's.
So mashallah he's.
He doesn't have any trouble.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
So that creates this people pleasing chameleon
syndrome where and I think likeespecially in um the workspace,
right when you're trying tosucceed here in the states that
almost it's like those twothings don't work.
You know, like we're in theworkplace, even just when it
comes to um the rate, or likeasking for a higher raise or
(09:08):
something like that.
I don't, I think that'ssomething so, so uncomfortable
for us.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, because you don't feellike you you're owed this thing,
yeah, you know, and it's likeand you don't want to rock the
boat and whatever you're you'regiven, you're like okay, yeah,
thank you, or whatever.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
Yeah, being grateful and you know, anecdotally, like
for me, I remember when I was Ithink I was like in college or
maybe even like senior in highschool um, I had like a couple
of projects that I was doing andI was consistently told not to
promote them, like, let otherpeople talk about you, don't
talk about you, right?
(09:43):
like, don't talk about thethings that you're doing, let
other people talk about you.
Don't talk about you, right?
Like, don't talk about thethings that you're doing, let
other people talk about thethings that you're doing, and
but you're like but I wantpeople to come, I want people to
you know, like, yeah and andthat's considered like if you
talk about yourself, you'rebeing braggadocious yeah, uh if
you promote yourself, you're,and there it's, it holds us.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
From a society that's built on that.
That's built on that Even eyecontact.
Think about that.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
If you look at your adult, or if you look at a
person that's like older thanyou in the eye, it's considered
disrespectful.
And then here, if you don'tlook at somebody, you're
considered um cowardly right so,and if you don't ask for
(10:32):
because they're not going togive you, yeah, what you're
worth, you have to ask for it,you have to demand it.
You have to be, and then, if youare not, someone that's like,
hey, this is what I'm doing hedid.
You see my work.
You know like I, I'm the onethat's leading this project, I'm
the one then they knoweverybody's willing to jump in
and take the credit.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Yeah, you know what I mean and you're gonna be left
behind and I think even in theaspect of interpersonal
relationship, like friendshipand even um partnership, with
the ways that people pleasingeven that shows up first and
foremost.
You sometimes people pleasingaspect doesn't even have to be
told to you.
You can become a people pleaserby based on observation of what
(11:13):
the way your parents interactwith other people.
One example that I have is thatthe way that in our community
is how one of your parents wouldbe so stressed out of the way
the community think of theirchildren versus the safety of
their children, right, forexample, like they will take the
side of like their friendcomments over, like your
comments, like I didn't say this, and your mom would be like,
(11:36):
yes, you did, because blah, blah, blah Person's told me you did.
Right, the trust is outside ofthe household than it is inside
the household and that affectchildren.
That distance and barriersbetween the mother and daughter
relationship and father and sonrelationship, because father is
always thinking so much aboutother people versus it is and
children then intend to kind of,you know, behave that way when
(11:59):
it comes to relationship,friendship, for example.
What causes a people pleasingis that sometimes we are mold to
behave a certain way and thatcontributes to fear of rejection
, fear of abandonment, fear of,even, like, disappointing people
, right, even in friendship.
Like I don't want to bring itup, this conflict that happened
(12:20):
between me and you, because if Ido, maybe she's going to leave
me, maybe this friendship isgoing to.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
So instead, I'm just gonna keep suppressing,
repressing my feelings and sothat way that I don't have to
disrupt the peace or, you know,be confrontational, yeah, and I
think I think for me, like Iraising daughters, I really have
to be mindful of that and justlike when my daughter comes to
me and she's like oh, oh, thishappened at school, you know so
and so doesn't like me, andstuff like that.
(12:46):
But it's so hard to kind of getout of that mode, especially if
you've been raised with that,right, if you've been raised
with like OK, this is whatyou're supposed to do, this is
what you know being a good girlis, and stuff like that.
So it's definitely takes a lotof work to hold yourself back
and it's like OK, what does thisgirl need at this moment?
You know she needs me to listen, she needs me to validate her
(13:09):
and she needs me to maybe like,try to push her in a direction
that she does Like her friendsdon't have to like her, I mean,
granted, she's in kindergarten,right, but the drama that goes
on in kindergarten.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
But, it's real, yeah, it's real.
The drama that goes on inkindergarten, but it's real.
Yeah, it's real.
Wallahi is real.
And trust me, Wallahi, I'mtelling you me as a therapist.
Listening to the stories,people remember what happened in
their kindergarten.
People remember as a or howthey felt, yes, how they felt
and how that person made themfeel, how the relationship with
everybody stemmed from thatexperiences, how the
(13:43):
relationship with everybodystemmed from that experiences.
And now when they talk aboutrelationship, friendship in
general, they're like, yeah, Iremember when I was in first
grade, this person said X, Y andZ to me and I remember how I
was so exclusive out of you know, being playing together or
sitting at a lunch tabletogether.
And they talk about it as anadult in their 30s and 40s.
This experience just continuesto affect them.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Right, because I don't know.
When she tells, honestly, Iwill say, when she tells me
these stories, I'm like OK, inmy head, I'm like did that
really happen?
Or you know, or like are you,are you thinking about it?
You know?
Speaker 2 (14:15):
I'm curious.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
Why do you not believe it?
Are you saying are you sayingmore of like?
Is it more in your head or did?
Speaker 1 (14:25):
it really happen.
Is that what you're?
Speaker 3 (14:26):
saying no, I don't say that to her, but I mean I'm
thinking, yeah, I'm thinkingabout it.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
I'm like, okay, did that really happen?
Did she really like push youand you know, tell the teacher
and like you know, she's likeshe's constantly telling us
supposedly this girl their bestfriends.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
I don't know yeah, and you know, I kind of wanted
to touch up a little bit on howyou know.
We are kind of told like oh,this, this family, you know,
your cousins or your, yourrelatives, what is it called?
Your mom's friends, their kids,are doing this and this right.
And then you're like for me,specifically when, when we're
(15:02):
just the idea of people pleasingand how your family, your
family, tends to mirror liketheir friends, and they kind of
believe that or they put that,they put that on you.
Sometimes, like I say this toeveryone that I've kind of known
, I got out, I got.
(15:23):
I didn't get to be a teenagerbecause I was so scared of like.
So, when I was a kid, when I waslike in, actually when I was
like in fifth grade, sixth grade, these kids, these um group of
girls that were in a differentpart of the city, that were at
that time in high school, okay,ended up like starting to date
(15:44):
guys and they were dating guysand they kind of ran away with
guys, whatever.
And then my family heard aboutthat and then all of a sudden,
me, a sixth grader that has no,like, no desire to date anybody
or talk to any guy, whatever thecase is, I was being told like,
oh, you wouldn't be balage likethem, huh, if I literally don't
(16:08):
wash the dishes, I'm like, oh,you're trying to turn into them,
huh.
And then now I went into fromthat, like from just being like,
okay, cool, I can be friendswith guys and it's cool.
No problem to don't talk to me.
I don't want you know like I'mlike I don't want anyone to look
at me.
Don't talk to me.
If you're a guy, don't come 10feet of me, because I'm like I
(16:31):
don't want to.
You know, I don't want you tosay I'm turning into them.
Yeah, you know, and it kind ofhint like that's one example.
But like, if you're being toldabout these things, like if
that's about what the way youeat, that's the way you interact
with people, if that's the way,about the way you know you make
friends, if that's like eventhe way your thought process oh,
why do you think like that thenyou will go out of your way as
(16:55):
a child to please your parents,to please your family or to not
be what they don't want you tobe.
And then you kind of lose whatyou could have been.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Right yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
Because there's no room for error, there's no room
for experiment in that cultureof like.
Anyway.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
I think another aspect of people pleasing a lot
of people kind of don'tunderstand is that emotional
reading, like you know how youread the temperature.
You're walking on eggshells.
You're making sure that theperson is not mad at you.
You're like, oh, I read thatperson very well.
No, you don't.
You are somehow surviving sothat you don't feel like you're
not disturbing the peace.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
You do read people.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
You do read them, you , you read, but I'm saying like
emotional read, like oh, I knowwhen they're mad, I know when
they're sad, like that's a lotof emotional labor that you're
doing in order for you to feelsafe.
Yeah, does that make sensebecause, that's your survival
apparatus, yeah, but then youget really good at that though
you do, but what I'm saying isthat it's not something to be
celebrated.
You did it to survive.
Does that make sense?
(17:54):
You did it because theenvironment that you're in you
have to please.
If you don't please, everythingis going to harm you.
You're going to get in trouble,yeah, but it's a superpower.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
It's a superpower you gain through trauma.
It is.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
But at the same time I think it's not something to be
celebrated to teach yourchildren to do those things,
because just because yousurvived that environment to
kind of read every the roomtemperature every single time
you walked in, it doesn't meanthat you have to keep doing it.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Yeah, I will say, though, like that allows you to
be a little bit like empathetic.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
You know you can be empathetic, but you don't have
to carry anybody else'semotional labor.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Yeah, but, but then I feel like there is a balance
that you can have.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
You know, you can.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
You can, you can.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
You can do that.
What we're saying are the typeof room reading and body
language reading that we'retalking about is that like, for
example, for kids that havereally really strict parents,
that you know they actually getkundutas or not, like not very
harsh kundutas and like you knowall that I don't want to say
(19:02):
you know but, um, they tend tocome into the room especially if
their parents go off the hinges, off of like little things, and
be like, okay, what's coming,what's expecting me when I walk
in the house, right, so theycome in and they see their mom's
body language or their dad'sbody language, especially like
kids that have um parents thateither are that drink or you
(19:24):
know parents that are you knowwhatever, have anger issues.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
They come and they're reading the mom's twitch yeah,
dad's like I think I think someof that, too, is like it can it
can be due to just their I'mlike, just their personality too
, because, when comparing, likemy two daughters right, my
oldest she's really good at likeshe know, she, I don't know
(19:52):
she's she's really good atsensing and like reading people
and like she's very helpfularound the house and like she's
caring for my little.
You know, the youngest son, butmy middle girl, she I'll be
like, hey, fatou, can you please?
You know, grab me something.
She's like no, I don't want todo that right now, yeah, you
know.
So I think it also they're bothhealthy, though I think, yeah,
(20:14):
they're both healthy, but butI'm saying it's not, it's not
all the time that it's aresponse of like trauma, trauma,
no yes, but there's this, no,no, hold on hold on, let me, let
me just explain.
There's a difference.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
There's a difference.
Um, for example, for me, nafi,if she sees, like she knows, me
being bubbly and happy and likeplaying with her, and if she
sees me a little serious of mybody language and it has nothing
to do with her, she knows thatwhatever I'm feeling, whatever,
and she comes, she's like mommy,are you okay?
And she comes and she feelsthat, she reads the room and she
(20:51):
tries to make me feel better.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
To make sure that's safe for her to come talk to you
.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
It's not about safe for her In this situation, you.
It's not about safe for her inthis situation.
It's not about safe for her.
She knows she's she.
Because in that same moment, ifI tell her now, if you go do
this, she'll more she'll, shecan, she wants, if she doesn't
want to do it, she'll say no.
She knows that's not going toget directed at her.
You know what I mean.
Yeah, she'll be like how she'stwo years old.
Let me explain.
Let me explain.
So, basically, ahun, for example, I'm sad right and me and her,
(21:18):
we just had a, we just playedshe's.
My energy towards her is normal.
Even when she approached me, Iam like welcoming her with the
same like hi, how are you?
But she knows something isdifferent.
She knows, like, if I'm sad,she knows it's not about her.
She knows when it's about her,she knows.
(21:39):
You know, it's just aninstinctual thing.
So if I say like she comes inand she says, hey, mommy, are
you OK, I want me to kiss, andthen she kisses me and then she
goes, she, she leaves, she justwants to make me feel better,
and then she leaves.
And then there are days whenshe's like she does something,
(22:02):
for example, she does somethingand she sees my face reaction
like you're not supposed to dothat.
She comes and then she goessorry, mommy, and then she gives
me a kiss and then she leaves.
But that's like there's adifference of like being able to
read the room and like feelyour feelings and then respond
like is this a threat to me oris?
Are you just going like I was,like I was just listening to um,
(22:24):
the body keeps the score on theaudio and he was talking about
like how babies, can he, like ababy can read them.
Like an infant, a newborn baby,can read the mom's emotion?
Like he was talking about howthe baby like pulled the mom's
hair and like he saw like hercringe and like and then put
(22:48):
like it's an instinctual, like12 second thing, like put a hand
over his face, you know, andput it down when she started
smiling again, that wasn't.
I don't think that baby isinterpreting like this mom that
has never been violent to me isgoing to be violent to me.
It's more of like feeling likesomething is off here.
(23:09):
You know what I?
Speaker 1 (23:10):
mean Something is different here.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
Right and it has more so, like that's what.
I think there is a healthylevel of reading a room and
making sure you're okay.
That's kind of beingsympathetic and empathetic.
I think there's a healthy levelof fear too.
And Yusuf, for example, he'scool, he can come around, he
sees me, mommy, you okay, cool,goes out, he doesn't sit.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
My thing is that I wonder the things that you feel
might be helpful for your childto do with you, and Things that
you feel might be helpful foryour child to do with you, and
what would that look like forthem in surviving the real world
.
Those behaviors that they areso good about right now with you
are some is going to be anenvironment of other people who
are not as emotionally safe asyou are to them.
How does that?
(23:59):
How would you, as a parent,distinguish that level of
parenting, saying love, the factthat you do this?
I also want you have theautonomy to do the things to say
no, like fatay said, yeah, andI think that's that's my biggest
issue, like, not issue.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
But my biggest worry when it comes to my oldest is
that, like, she's like verygiving and very like helpful to
me and others and stuff likethat.
But then, like, like, forexample, one of our friends came
over and then she, she had thisjacket that she really she
liked, you know.
And then I could just see itplay out where, like the girl,
(24:30):
she's like oh, I think you knowthis looks, this looks, dia
wanted the jacket, you know.
And then the other girl waslike oh, oh, I don't think it
looks good on you.
And and then Dia's like oh, doyou want to wear it?
Then and she's like yeah, letme wear it.
Then she wore it, you know.
So then I was just like, and Ihad to really like, hold myself
back and also because I thenafterwards I said hey, dia, you
(24:52):
know that wasn't okay.
Like you, you know you like thejacket, you know.
So why did you like give it toher, you know?
But then, at the same time, Iwas talking to one of my sisters
, uh, about it, and she's likebut isn't that hot?
Like, is it basically?
She basically said isn't thathow you're raising her?
Speaker 3 (25:08):
like to be a good person in the world there's a
distinction, though, is being agood person in the world, being
wanting to give something versuswanting to give because you
don't want confrontation.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Yeah, you know what I mean.
I think she should becomfortable.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
She should be comfortable being
confrontational.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
This is mine.
I like this.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
And then if she wants to give her and she's like, oh,
I like this, but if you want towear it, you can wear it,
that's fine.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
I think that's what you mean about balance.
The balance is what Bonnie'ssaying and what you're thinking
Like being giving, being able tounderstand situations and
having being able to understand,or when are you doing it out of
a fear?
Out of a fear of like you don'twant?
For example, when I talkedabout the parent aspect of it,
(25:59):
there was an example thatrecently somebody a client, was
telling me that when they were achild, they had to really pay
attention to their parents.
When they come home from work,they read their faces.
This is not the parent thatdrinks, this is not the parent
that has anything to do, butthis is just their parent.
If their mom's face lookeddifferent than the way, just the
(26:21):
tone of her voice, they knowwhen to run to hide in their
room, right?
So it's like that's emotionalreading.
It's like, okay, I can read mymom and being aware of like, oh,
she's mad today, she had a hardday today.
So mom cannot be able toexpress her frustration, her
difficulty at work.
But what does she do when shecome home?
Why is the house not clean?
What are you doing?
(26:41):
You're lazy, you haven't doneanything the whole day.
So now the kid has to read theemotion.
Either they go clean so momdoesn't yell at them or they go
hide in their room.
That's what I mean when I sayemotional reading is like now
that child is going to be doingthat as an adult to their
partners, to their friends, tomake sure, like, oh, my friend,
when she responded to me,something was off today.
(27:02):
So every single time, likethey're always on an edge with,
like feeling hypervigilant about, like wait, I should have said
something.
Maybe I should have talked tomy friend a little bit longer,
because all of that laboringthat person is doing, it's not
healthy to them, right?
If you do it out of a care,knowing that it's not having
such a severe impact on you,that's fine.
(27:22):
But if it's having severephysical impact and you're
always afraid that you're goingto disappoint one of your friend
, one of your partner, or one ofwhoever might be, is that's not
good for you.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
So then, what do you suggest then?
Speaker 3 (27:34):
I feel like, because right now, I think it's
consistency, you see, for kids.
When Dahabi was talking aboutthat, I can definitely relate to
that in the sense that if youdon't know for growing up, if
you don't know what sets someoneoff right, like, oh, if I, if I
(27:56):
clean, if I, you know, takelike whatever, like you have,
towards any child, like, even ina healthy household, if I have,
if I do my chores, if I do myhomework, if I have good grades,
if I'm a good like, if I am apolite, like, good child,
normally I don't have anyconsequences, right.
And then if I do get theseconsequences, I know exactly
(28:19):
what the consequences are goingto be.
My parents have been consistentabout my expectation and what's
expected of me and theconsequences if I don't meet
those expectations.
But if you walk in in a familythat's unhealthy and toxic or in
the situations that createpeople pleasers or people room
readers and body languagereaders, kids are always walking
(28:40):
into a situation where theydon't know what they're walking
into.
Like, oh, I did the dishes, Ihave good grades, I have this, I
have that, I'm doing what I'msupposed to do, but something in
the parents the goalposts yeah,the goalposts changes and then
something, even that doesn'thave anything to do with them,
there's something that theydon't have any control over,
will impact them and they willhave consequence for something
(29:01):
that they didn't even do.
For example, they might havedone everything that they're
supposed to do, but the parentmight have had a very bad day at
work.
But they don't know how toemotionally regulate themselves,
so they normally take it out onthe kids.
So when they come into thehouse they're like how's mom
feeling today?
And then to know that maybebefore the hits come or before
the insults come, the mom maybelike does the miranda personally
(29:26):
of like you know, like you know, purses her lips or like she
squints and looks at them,whatever the case is, or she's
storming around the housegrunting, then they know what to
expect rightand then they know how to
navigate that.
Um, so it's more about theconsistency of it.
Like, okay, if I do this, I dothis, and if this that comes for
this is this and it's known,it's consistent, then that's
(29:49):
healthy.
So they don't have thisanxiousness of like, what am I
walking into, what am I supposedto do?
You know what?
What is mom dealing with?
What's dad dealing with it?
You know, even if they know, iftheir parents had a bad day at
work or someone crossed them orthey have whatever, they know,
that's not gonna be about themyeah, you know, yeah, and I
think I'm sure you asked areally good question.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
Thank you, bonnie, for that.
You also asked a good questionhow do we help?
What are we supposed to do inthis situation?
Yeah, one is to justacknowledge that you are doing
it, right, that's one.
Secondly, you have to realizethat nothing is really your
fault, right, you're not introuble, right?
Another aspect of that is thatrealizing that you need to set
(30:34):
boundaries with people, whetherwhoever that might be, is like,
whether it's your family,whether it's your friends.
Set boundaries with yourselfand with them, saying like, if
I'm not able to meet at nineo'clock, I can't meet at nine
o'clock.
Can we meet at 830 or seveno'clock, right?
And then also identifying whatis a priority for you.
What do you feel like in yourbody when something comes up?
(30:55):
Do you feel like you're scared?
Do you feel like you're goingback to that little part of you
that started the first time?
Notice what's coming up for youin the process when somebody is
asking you to do it and then youhave to set limits, with
yourself, saying that this feelsuncomfortable for me and I
don't know how to talk to thisperson.
So what do I need to do aboutthis.
(31:15):
I need to talk to someone thatI feel comfortable with, right,
and who makes me feel safe whenI express myself, that I'm not
getting in trouble with, whomakes me realize that, ok,
here's what's happening and thisis what you could do.
And if the person say, you know, I am not ready to do this by
myself, would you like me tocome with you?
Ok, sure, let's do it together.
I'll just be there for youwhile you talk to this person,
(31:39):
right?
Those are the things.
Another part is like teachingkids early on.
That is OK for people not tolike you, yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
Right, it's okay for people to feel uncomfortable
with you.
If you like something, you likesomething.
But if you want to be generousand give to that person, go
ahead, do so.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
But you don't have to compromise yourself in order
for the world to be happy withyou, and I think, to just to
wrap up, you know ourconversation we started off with
talking about Oromos as acollective, how we are
constantly people pleasing justto fit in, to not rock the boat,
and that, I feel like, is a bigpoint in terms of not caring
(32:23):
whether people like you or not.
I think we'll solve a lot of ourproblems, you know, in terms of
you know, if you want to getthat promotion at work, if you
want to move, if you want tostart a business, if you want to
um, have goals for this year,um, not taking people into
consideration, cause I think,growing up, that was always the
(32:46):
biggest thing and it's it was.
It has always been forefront.
You know the biggest thing andit's it was.
It has always been forefront,you know.
You know, um.
And just to wrap up, I thinkyou made some really good points
about what are some things thatyou can do to combat that, but
personally, I think you knowit's hard to go and say, okay,
let's change how Ormos think asa whole, right, but you as a
(33:09):
person as a whole, right, butyou as a person you as Bonnie,
me and Dabe I think what's onething that you will do in your
life not somebody else, becauseI think this affects us
collectively, right?
Speaker 2 (33:24):
Yes For me.
I've been working on this for awhile, since I think working on
becoming, on learning a lot ofpeople, policing and dentistry
takes a lot of life work andit's not going to be done in one
tips that we're giving.
One of the things that Irealized is that if the person
doesn't tell me what I have doneto them, I am not responsible
for their emotions.
(33:45):
I am not responsible for howyou're feeling about me and I'm
not going to read the room andtrying to do your emotional
laboring for you, and I'm OKwith that.
I'm OK with the fact thatyou're going to leave or you're
going to reject me.
I'm OK with that because I haveto understand the impact its
physical impact that it has onme.
So I mean, it's something thatI've.
(34:08):
It's related to boundaries too,so I use boundaries as well and
I'm kind of very like religiousabout my boundaries, a lot of
it.
So I'm like if I can't do it, Ican't do it.
No, yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
How about you, Bonnie ?
Speaker 3 (34:22):
I feel like the habit is in a little bit further on
the spectrum the journey than Iam.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
She's almost out of it.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
She's almost out of it.
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
For me, I think it's aboutfinding my anchor and kind of
trusting myself in my own body,in the sense that, like normally
, if someone asks me to dosomething, I my instinct is how
can I make?
How can I make it work, insteadof like how?
What's taking what?
(34:49):
What is it taking from me tomake it work?
Right?
like so, if so, what I do andwhat I'm learning to do is kind
of being anchoring myself andbeing like okay, you, I, I know
you want to say, yes, I know youwant that person to be
satisfied and happy with you andyou want to be, you know,
whatever.
But then you have to be able tosay how does this make you feel
(35:12):
like, are you doing this becauseyou want to do this or are you
doing this because you want thatperson to like you, to be happy
with you, and all of thosethings?
So, and if the answer is justtaking that time, because I'm
still in that practice of itlike it, if it's not natural for
me, like you know, or it'syou're not, like it's not as
(35:33):
religious for me as it is forDahabay, like I'm not there yet,
so every time I have to askmyself are you doing this
because you want to do this?
Are you doing this for the sakeof Allah, or are you doing this
because you want to make thatperson happy and you want to um
that person to like you and tobe happy with you?
Speaker 1 (35:50):
okay, I think, for me , um, like, I think my biggest
thing has been just being me,you know, authentically, all the
time, because I feel like a lotof people will be like, oh,
she's so quiet, blah, blah,reserved, um, it's okay, right,
and I think it's more likelythan not it's because I don't
(36:14):
let people in because of fear ofrejection, um, and so I think
that's mostly what I've beenworking on is just like not
really trying not to care, um,and just being me in terms of,
like, decision making, um, andjust doing things and moving in
(36:34):
a way that I feel like I'mpleased with versus the next
person.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
Yeah, so yep and so, yeah, um, I think this is really
a great conversation, ladies.
I really do enjoyed everysingle thought that came up.
Um, we'll continue to talkabout this, and this has been a
difficult conversation see younext time join the conversation
(37:02):
in the comment section or on oursocial media pages.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
We do not have all the answers, and our biggest
goal is to kick off theconversation and get it started.
May Allah accept our effortsand use us for catalysts of
change.
As-salamu alaykum, welcome to Difficult
Conversations where we tackletaboo topics in a safe space
through empowerment andeducation.
The information on this podcastis for informational purposes
only and should not beconsidered professional mental
health advice.
I think I really want to getinto kind of Oromos as a group
(00:27):
and our chameleon tendenciesBefore we get started.
I think one of the reasons whyI want to talk about this is for
the longest I was working withthis with an Oromos sister for
like I think six months or so,and she was like I thought she
was Somali, she thought I wasSomali, and this whole six
(00:48):
months we were like I don't know, not not really unsure of each
other, um, and then finally Idon't know what it was, I think
I was on the phone, uh, with mymom or something.
I was talking to Oromo and andthen she's like oh, wow, wow,
oromoda, and I was like, yeah,you know, and I think this
happens to me personally a lotand I and I've always wondered
(01:10):
like why that is the case andwhy we tend to I guess I mean,
for lack of a better word ourchameleons whenever we get
ourselves into situations,whether it's like when we're
around somalis or when we'rearound um other ethiopians.
We just kind of blend in andit's just our nature a lot of
(01:32):
the times, um, we don't like torock the boat, we don't like to
uh, challenge status quo, um.
So I really like just want totalk about that and how that
affects you personally in theworkspace, how that affects you
in relationships and in likeevery dynamic of life.
So yeah.
What do you guys think aboutthat?
Speaker 2 (01:55):
I'm actually curious why don't you ask her Like are
you Odom or Somali?
Speaker 1 (01:59):
I don't because I feel like I don't know, like
because a lot of the time peoplealways assume I'm Somali and.
I get really like.
I'm just like no, I'm not, youknow and and I don't want to do
that to anybody, okay you don'twant to offend yeah, I didn't
want not necessarily offended,because I don't think, I don't
know, I don't know what it was,but I was just like, oh, maybe
she's not like I just, but I dosay, you know okay that's really
(02:22):
interesting, because I mean,for me I wouldn't, kind of I
would ask, uh, first andforemost, and whether, first of
all, I'm always assumed that I'mSomali too.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Um, when that happens , it's like they get really
offended that I'm not yeah, butI and then the aspect of like
when we just kind of assimilatein a background, yeah, related
to our people.
I feel like historically, beforewe even get into that, I wanted
to kind of assimilate in abackground related to our people
.
I feel like historically,before we even get into that, I
wanted to kind of make adisclaimer a little bit about
how the conversation that we mayhave today might be triggering
(02:54):
for some people.
We're going to talk aboutpeople pleasing and what that
means collectively andindividually and how that
affects us.
So if any of this topic isfeeling very triggering, please
take a step back and kind oftake care of yourself, so that
way that you are kind of meetingyour needs in this conversation
(03:14):
.
But I think, historically ourpeople, I would say is because
we have been always the servantright, we were told to be a
certain way in the land of thecountry that we're from, we're
supposed to behave a certain wayand even when it comes to
conflict arising, generalconflict, now I'm talking about
outside of you know, familydynamic, but outside in the
(03:37):
community, like the globalcollective.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
And, for example, like we're the first time Oromo
people can only speak theirlanguage in Ethiopia freely,
without no restriction.
Behind it was 1990s, right?
So before that you also can'tspeak Oromo.
So if that aspect of thegeneral background is that, how
(04:01):
do you think internal inside thehouse conversation is going to
be like when it comes to the wayyou're raised?
Don't talk like this, don'ttalk outside like this, don't
say this, don't walk like this,don't behave like this, because
if you do, you're going to getin trouble by the actual
government, the system, whateveryou may call.
So then parent whatevergeneration, historical and then
(04:24):
parent whatever generation,historical trauma, psychological
stuff.
They raise all their kids tojust not challenge the status
quo, not to challenge whereyou're from, even if you can't
even tell people you're Oromo,because there is that fear there
still, even though there are,like younger generation Oromos,
like so proud, so freely theycan say it like I'm Oromo, I'm
(04:46):
this, I you know, I love that.
But for if you ask your oldersiblings, they're a little bit
shy about the way they likepresent that the way that they
talk about it the way they evenlike in conversation at work,
for example, they intend to kindof hide behind the scenes and
just allow everything to takeplace.
And so because of thathistorical experiences I can
(05:07):
always relate it to trauma andwe intend to just avoid not
wanting to be the center ofattention, like I don't want to
be.
I don't want people to noticeme, so I want to hide a little
bit.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
So, yeah.
No, I I was listening to youboth.
No, I was listening to you bothand a couple of things was kind
of going in and out of my brain.
One was like the concept of thehistorical concept of how Odomo
people, specifically, have beenforced into chameleonism,
(05:42):
almost right.
Forced into chameleonism almostright, like, because you are
told not to speak your language,you are told that, um, you were
inferior, you were, you know,and even like the being cool is
like being amara, right, likespeaking amara, oh, she speaks.
And even when you speak amaraas a normal person and if you
have an accent, you're calledgala, yes, right, oh, she's so
(06:03):
far like whatever, whatever,especially not these.
But when I was back home Iremember you know people, not,
not, this is not necessarilyjust for ormo people, for even
other tribes that are um speak.
When they are speaking amharicand they speak it, even they're
speaking it fluently.
Just, they have an accent oftheir culture.
(06:23):
They are considered she doesn'tknow very, you know she's not
cool she's whatever so you areforced into chameleonism and
then that comes, and then yourparents and your family wanting
you to be better, to besuccessful.
It's basically like the in inamerica if you bring you here,
it's code switching right yesbeing able to put like, if you
(06:45):
are a black person, you speak ina speaking slang and or you
have a certain dialect that youspeak in, then you code, switch
into this professionalism right?
professional language,professional way of speaking
that is technically umeurocentric right so you speak
in a way that is monotone, thatis like you know deeper, and you
(07:07):
speak.
You choose your diction welland whatever the case might be,
so that you can remove yourselfas far from who you are to meet
their needs.
So, and this happens to everyonethat has been oppressed in any
way at any point by anybody,yeah, right this is not just an
(07:29):
autumnal phenomenon, but when itcomes to us and in our culture,
we also speak about, um, it'svery.
Take this concept ofchameleonism and then bring it
to a collective culture thatcares so much about what the
community thinks of them, rightso?
And then, when the community isan oppressive community, right,
(07:52):
and I say that like, if the wayyou talk is to be, uh, demure,
right, like if you're a girl,you have to be demure, you have
to speak in a way that's likesoft, you have to be seen but
not heard yeah kind of thingvery um.
And then also, if you areexpressive, if you are, and then
(08:13):
you are balagay like, oh, Idon't know, why are you getting
into?
You know people's like adultpeople's business yeah so
consistently.
Since childhood, you're told tobe in the background yeah,
being.
You're taught that being in thebackground, hiding your voice,
lowering your voice, um, nothaving an opinion is is the way
(08:33):
to be a good girl, or a good guy, or not a good guy, but a good
girl mostly golden boy, goldenvoice, right, oh he's.
So mashallah he's.
He doesn't have any trouble.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
So that creates this people pleasing chameleon
syndrome where and I think likeespecially in um the workspace,
right when you're trying tosucceed here in the states that
almost it's like those twothings don't work.
You know, like we're in theworkplace, even just when it
comes to um the rate, or likeasking for a higher raise or
(09:08):
something like that.
I don't, I think that'ssomething so, so uncomfortable
for us.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, because you don't feellike you you're owed this thing,
yeah, you know, and it's likeand you don't want to rock the
boat and whatever you're you'regiven, you're like okay, yeah,
thank you, or whatever.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
Yeah, being grateful and you know, anecdotally, like
for me, I remember when I was Ithink I was like in college or
maybe even like senior in highschool um, I had like a couple
of projects that I was doing andI was consistently told not to
promote them, like, let otherpeople talk about you, don't
talk about you, right?
(09:43):
like, don't talk about thethings that you're doing, let
other people talk about you.
Don't talk about you, right?
Like, don't talk about thethings that you're doing, let
other people talk about thethings that you're doing, and
but you're like but I wantpeople to come, I want people to
you know, like, yeah and andthat's considered like if you
talk about yourself, you'rebeing braggadocious yeah, uh if
you promote yourself, you're,and there it's, it holds us.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
From a society that's built on that.
That's built on that Even eyecontact.
Think about that.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
If you look at your adult, or if you look at a
person that's like older thanyou in the eye, it's considered
disrespectful.
And then here, if you don'tlook at somebody, you're
considered um cowardly right so,and if you don't ask for
(10:32):
because they're not going togive you, yeah, what you're
worth, you have to ask for it,you have to demand it.
You have to be, and then, if youare not, someone that's like,
hey, this is what I'm doing hedid.
You see my work.
You know like I, I'm the onethat's leading this project, I'm
the one then they knoweverybody's willing to jump in
and take the credit.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Yeah, you know what I mean and you're gonna be left
behind and I think even in theaspect of interpersonal
relationship, like friendshipand even um partnership, with
the ways that people pleasingeven that shows up first and
foremost.
You sometimes people pleasingaspect doesn't even have to be
told to you.
You can become a people pleaserby based on observation of what
(11:13):
the way your parents interactwith other people.
One example that I have is thatthe way that in our community
is how one of your parents wouldbe so stressed out of the way
the community think of theirchildren versus the safety of
their children, right, forexample, like they will take the
side of like their friendcomments over, like your
comments, like I didn't say this, and your mom would be like,
(11:36):
yes, you did, because blah, blah, blah Person's told me you did.
Right, the trust is outside ofthe household than it is inside
the household and that affectchildren.
That distance and barriersbetween the mother and daughter
relationship and father and sonrelationship, because father is
always thinking so much aboutother people versus it is and
children then intend to kind of,you know, behave that way when
(11:59):
it comes to relationship,friendship, for example.
What causes a people pleasingis that sometimes we are mold to
behave a certain way and thatcontributes to fear of rejection
, fear of abandonment, fear of,even, like, disappointing people
, right, even in friendship.
Like I don't want to bring itup, this conflict that happened
(12:20):
between me and you, because if Ido, maybe she's going to leave
me, maybe this friendship isgoing to.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
So instead, I'm just gonna keep suppressing,
repressing my feelings and sothat way that I don't have to
disrupt the peace or, you know,be confrontational, yeah, and I
think I think for me, like Iraising daughters, I really have
to be mindful of that and justlike when my daughter comes to
me and she's like oh, oh, thishappened at school, you know so
and so doesn't like me, andstuff like that.
(12:46):
But it's so hard to kind of getout of that mode, especially if
you've been raised with that,right, if you've been raised
with like OK, this is whatyou're supposed to do, this is
what you know being a good girlis, and stuff like that.
So it's definitely takes a lotof work to hold yourself back
and it's like OK, what does thisgirl need at this moment?
You know she needs me to listen, she needs me to validate her
(13:09):
and she needs me to maybe like,try to push her in a direction
that she does Like her friendsdon't have to like her, I mean,
granted, she's in kindergarten,right, but the drama that goes
on in kindergarten.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
But, it's real, yeah, it's real.
The drama that goes on inkindergarten, but it's real.
Yeah, it's real.
Wallahi is real.
And trust me, Wallahi, I'mtelling you me as a therapist.
Listening to the stories,people remember what happened in
their kindergarten.
People remember as a or howthey felt, yes, how they felt
and how that person made themfeel, how the relationship with
everybody stemmed from thatexperiences, how the
(13:43):
relationship with everybodystemmed from that experiences.
And now when they talk aboutrelationship, friendship in
general, they're like, yeah, Iremember when I was in first
grade, this person said X, Y andZ to me and I remember how I
was so exclusive out of you know, being playing together or
sitting at a lunch tabletogether.
And they talk about it as anadult in their 30s and 40s.
This experience just continuesto affect them.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Right, because I don't know.
When she tells, honestly, Iwill say, when she tells me
these stories, I'm like OK, inmy head, I'm like did that
really happen?
Or you know, or like are you,are you thinking about it?
You know?
Speaker 2 (14:15):
I'm curious.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
Why do you not believe it?
Are you saying are you sayingmore of like?
Is it more in your head or did?
Speaker 1 (14:25):
it really happen.
Is that what you're?
Speaker 3 (14:26):
saying no, I don't say that to her, but I mean I'm
thinking, yeah, I'm thinkingabout it.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
I'm like, okay, did that really happen?
Did she really like push youand you know, tell the teacher
and like you know, she's likeshe's constantly telling us
supposedly this girl their bestfriends.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
I don't know yeah, and you know, I kind of wanted
to touch up a little bit on howyou know.
We are kind of told like oh,this, this family, you know,
your cousins or your, yourrelatives, what is it called?
Your mom's friends, their kids,are doing this and this right.
And then you're like for me,specifically when, when we're
(15:02):
just the idea of people pleasingand how your family, your
family, tends to mirror liketheir friends, and they kind of
believe that or they put that,they put that on you.
Sometimes, like I say this toeveryone that I've kind of known
, I got out, I got.
(15:23):
I didn't get to be a teenagerbecause I was so scared of like.
So, when I was a kid, when I waslike in, actually when I was
like in fifth grade, sixth grade, these kids, these um group of
girls that were in a differentpart of the city, that were at
that time in high school, okay,ended up like starting to date
(15:44):
guys and they were dating guysand they kind of ran away with
guys, whatever.
And then my family heard aboutthat and then all of a sudden,
me, a sixth grader that has no,like, no desire to date anybody
or talk to any guy, whatever thecase is, I was being told like,
oh, you wouldn't be balage likethem, huh, if I literally don't
(16:08):
wash the dishes, I'm like, oh,you're trying to turn into them,
huh.
And then now I went into fromthat, like from just being like,
okay, cool, I can be friendswith guys and it's cool.
No problem to don't talk to me.
I don't want you know like I'mlike I don't want anyone to look
at me.
Don't talk to me.
If you're a guy, don't come 10feet of me, because I'm like I
(16:31):
don't want to.
You know, I don't want you tosay I'm turning into them.
Yeah, you know, and it kind ofhint like that's one example.
But like, if you're being toldabout these things, like if
that's about what the way youeat, that's the way you interact
with people, if that's the way,about the way you know you make
friends, if that's like eventhe way your thought process oh,
why do you think like that thenyou will go out of your way as
(16:55):
a child to please your parents,to please your family or to not
be what they don't want you tobe.
And then you kind of lose whatyou could have been.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Right yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
Because there's no room for error, there's no room
for experiment in that cultureof like.
Anyway.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
I think another aspect of people pleasing a lot
of people kind of don'tunderstand is that emotional
reading, like you know how youread the temperature.
You're walking on eggshells.
You're making sure that theperson is not mad at you.
You're like, oh, I read thatperson very well.
No, you don't.
You are somehow surviving sothat you don't feel like you're
not disturbing the peace.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
You do read people.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
You do read them, you , you read, but I'm saying like
emotional read, like oh, I knowwhen they're mad, I know when
they're sad, like that's a lotof emotional labor that you're
doing in order for you to feelsafe.
Yeah, does that make sensebecause, that's your survival
apparatus, yeah, but then youget really good at that though
you do, but what I'm saying isthat it's not something to be
celebrated.
You did it to survive.
Does that make sense?
(17:54):
You did it because theenvironment that you're in you
have to please.
If you don't please, everythingis going to harm you.
You're going to get in trouble,yeah, but it's a superpower.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
It's a superpower you gain through trauma.
It is.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
But at the same time I think it's not something to be
celebrated to teach yourchildren to do those things,
because just because yousurvived that environment to
kind of read every the roomtemperature every single time
you walked in, it doesn't meanthat you have to keep doing it.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Yeah, I will say, though, like that allows you to
be a little bit like empathetic.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
You know you can be empathetic, but you don't have
to carry anybody else'semotional labor.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Yeah, but, but then I feel like there is a balance
that you can have.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
You know, you can.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
You can, you can.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
You can do that.
What we're saying are the typeof room reading and body
language reading that we'retalking about is that like, for
example, for kids that havereally really strict parents,
that you know they actually getkundutas or not, like not very
harsh kundutas and like you knowall that I don't want to say
(19:02):
you know but, um, they tend tocome into the room especially if
their parents go off the hinges, off of like little things, and
be like, okay, what's coming,what's expecting me when I walk
in the house, right, so theycome in and they see their mom's
body language or their dad'sbody language, especially like
kids that have um parents thateither are that drink or you
(19:24):
know parents that are you knowwhatever, have anger issues.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
They come and they're reading the mom's twitch yeah,
dad's like I think I think someof that, too, is like it can it
can be due to just their I'mlike, just their personality too
, because, when comparing, likemy two daughters right, my
oldest she's really good at likeshe know, she, I don't know
(19:52):
she's she's really good atsensing and like reading people
and like she's very helpfularound the house and like she's
caring for my little.
You know, the youngest son, butmy middle girl, she I'll be
like, hey, fatou, can you please?
You know, grab me something.
She's like no, I don't want todo that right now, yeah, you
know.
So I think it also they're bothhealthy, though I think, yeah,
(20:14):
they're both healthy, but butI'm saying it's not, it's not
all the time that it's aresponse of like trauma, trauma,
no yes, but there's this, no,no, hold on hold on, let me, let
me just explain.
There's a difference.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
There's a difference.
Um, for example, for me, nafi,if she sees, like she knows, me
being bubbly and happy and likeplaying with her, and if she
sees me a little serious of mybody language and it has nothing
to do with her, she knows thatwhatever I'm feeling, whatever,
and she comes, she's like mommy,are you okay?
And she comes and she feelsthat, she reads the room and she
(20:51):
tries to make me feel better.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
To make sure that's safe for her to come talk to you
.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
It's not about safe for her In this situation, you.
It's not about safe for her inthis situation.
It's not about safe for her.
She knows she's she.
Because in that same moment, ifI tell her now, if you go do
this, she'll more she'll, shecan, she wants, if she doesn't
want to do it, she'll say no.
She knows that's not going toget directed at her.
You know what I mean.
Yeah, she'll be like how she'stwo years old.
Let me explain.
Let me explain.
So, basically, ahun, for example, I'm sad right and me and her,
(21:18):
we just had a, we just playedshe's.
My energy towards her is normal.
Even when she approached me, Iam like welcoming her with the
same like hi, how are you?
But she knows something isdifferent.
She knows, like, if I'm sad,she knows it's not about her.
She knows when it's about her,she knows.
(21:39):
You know, it's just aninstinctual thing.
So if I say like she comes inand she says, hey, mommy, are
you OK, I want me to kiss, andthen she kisses me and then she
goes, she, she leaves, she justwants to make me feel better,
and then she leaves.
And then there are days whenshe's like she does something,
(22:02):
for example, she does somethingand she sees my face reaction
like you're not supposed to dothat.
She comes and then she goessorry, mommy, and then she gives
me a kiss and then she leaves.
But that's like there's adifference of like being able to
read the room and like feelyour feelings and then respond
like is this a threat to me oris?
Are you just going like I was,like I was just listening to um,
(22:24):
the body keeps the score on theaudio and he was talking about
like how babies, can he, like ababy can read them.
Like an infant, a newborn baby,can read the mom's emotion?
Like he was talking about howthe baby like pulled the mom's
hair and like he saw like hercringe and like and then put
(22:48):
like it's an instinctual, like12 second thing, like put a hand
over his face, you know, andput it down when she started
smiling again, that wasn't.
I don't think that baby isinterpreting like this mom that
has never been violent to me isgoing to be violent to me.
It's more of like feeling likesomething is off here.
(23:09):
You know what I?
Speaker 1 (23:10):
mean Something is different here.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
Right and it has more so, like that's what.
I think there is a healthylevel of reading a room and
making sure you're okay.
That's kind of beingsympathetic and empathetic.
I think there's a healthy levelof fear too.
And Yusuf, for example, he'scool, he can come around, he
sees me, mommy, you okay, cool,goes out, he doesn't sit.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
My thing is that I wonder the things that you feel
might be helpful for your childto do with you, and Things that
you feel might be helpful foryour child to do with you, and
what would that look like forthem in surviving the real world
.
Those behaviors that they areso good about right now with you
are some is going to be anenvironment of other people who
are not as emotionally safe asyou are to them.
How does that?
(23:59):
How would you, as a parent,distinguish that level of
parenting, saying love, the factthat you do this?
I also want you have theautonomy to do the things to say
no, like fatay said, yeah, andI think that's that's my biggest
issue, like, not issue.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
But my biggest worry when it comes to my oldest is
that, like, she's like verygiving and very like helpful to
me and others and stuff likethat.
But then, like, like, forexample, one of our friends came
over and then she, she had thisjacket that she really she
liked, you know.
And then I could just see itplay out where, like the girl,
(24:30):
she's like oh, I think you knowthis looks, this looks, dia
wanted the jacket, you know.
And then the other girl waslike oh, oh, I don't think it
looks good on you.
And and then Dia's like oh, doyou want to wear it?
Then and she's like yeah, letme wear it.
Then she wore it, you know.
So then I was just like, and Ihad to really like, hold myself
back and also because I thenafterwards I said hey, dia, you
(24:52):
know that wasn't okay.
Like you, you know you like thejacket, you know.
So why did you like give it toher, you know?
But then, at the same time, Iwas talking to one of my sisters
, uh, about it, and she's likebut isn't that hot?
Like, is it basically?
She basically said isn't thathow you're raising her?
Speaker 3 (25:08):
like to be a good person in the world there's a
distinction, though, is being agood person in the world, being
wanting to give something versuswanting to give because you
don't want confrontation.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Yeah, you know what I mean.
I think she should becomfortable.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
She should be comfortable being
confrontational.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
This is mine.
I like this.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
And then if she wants to give her and she's like, oh,
I like this, but if you want towear it, you can wear it,
that's fine.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
I think that's what you mean about balance.
The balance is what Bonnie'ssaying and what you're thinking
Like being giving, being able tounderstand situations and
having being able to understand,or when are you doing it out of
a fear?
Out of a fear of like you don'twant?
For example, when I talkedabout the parent aspect of it,
(25:59):
there was an example thatrecently somebody a client, was
telling me that when they were achild, they had to really pay
attention to their parents.
When they come home from work,they read their faces.
This is not the parent thatdrinks, this is not the parent
that has anything to do, butthis is just their parent.
If their mom's face lookeddifferent than the way, just the
(26:21):
tone of her voice, they knowwhen to run to hide in their
room, right?
So it's like that's emotionalreading.
It's like, okay, I can read mymom and being aware of like, oh,
she's mad today, she had a hardday today.
So mom cannot be able toexpress her frustration, her
difficulty at work.
But what does she do when shecome home?
Why is the house not clean?
What are you doing?
(26:41):
You're lazy, you haven't doneanything the whole day.
So now the kid has to read theemotion.
Either they go clean so momdoesn't yell at them or they go
hide in their room.
That's what I mean when I sayemotional reading is like now
that child is going to be doingthat as an adult to their
partners, to their friends, tomake sure, like, oh, my friend,
when she responded to me,something was off today.
(27:02):
So every single time, likethey're always on an edge with,
like feeling hypervigilant about, like wait, I should have said
something.
Maybe I should have talked tomy friend a little bit longer,
because all of that laboringthat person is doing, it's not
healthy to them, right?
If you do it out of a care,knowing that it's not having
such a severe impact on you,that's fine.
(27:22):
But if it's having severephysical impact and you're
always afraid that you're goingto disappoint one of your friend
, one of your partner, or one ofwhoever might be, is that's not
good for you.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
So then, what do you suggest then?
Speaker 3 (27:34):
I feel like, because right now, I think it's
consistency, you see, for kids.
When Dahabi was talking aboutthat, I can definitely relate to
that in the sense that if youdon't know for growing up, if
you don't know what sets someoneoff right, like, oh, if I, if I
(27:56):
clean, if I, you know, takelike whatever, like you have,
towards any child, like, even ina healthy household, if I have,
if I do my chores, if I do myhomework, if I have good grades,
if I'm a good like, if I am apolite, like, good child,
normally I don't have anyconsequences, right.
And then if I do get theseconsequences, I know exactly
(28:19):
what the consequences are goingto be.
My parents have been consistentabout my expectation and what's
expected of me and theconsequences if I don't meet
those expectations.
But if you walk in in a familythat's unhealthy and toxic or in
the situations that createpeople pleasers or people room
readers and body languagereaders, kids are always walking
(28:40):
into a situation where theydon't know what they're walking
into.
Like, oh, I did the dishes, Ihave good grades, I have this, I
have that, I'm doing what I'msupposed to do, but something in
the parents the goalposts yeah,the goalposts changes and then
something, even that doesn'thave anything to do with them,
there's something that theydon't have any control over,
will impact them and they willhave consequence for something
(29:01):
that they didn't even do.
For example, they might havedone everything that they're
supposed to do, but the parentmight have had a very bad day at
work.
But they don't know how toemotionally regulate themselves,
so they normally take it out onthe kids.
So when they come into thehouse they're like how's mom
feeling today?
And then to know that maybebefore the hits come or before
the insults come, the mom maybelike does the miranda personally
(29:26):
of like you know, like you know, purses her lips or like she
squints and looks at them,whatever the case is, or she's
storming around the housegrunting, then they know what to
expect rightand then they know how to
navigate that.
Um, so it's more about theconsistency of it.
Like, okay, if I do this, I dothis, and if this that comes for
this is this and it's known,it's consistent, then that's
(29:49):
healthy.
So they don't have thisanxiousness of like, what am I
walking into, what am I supposedto do?
You know what?
What is mom dealing with?
What's dad dealing with it?
You know, even if they know, iftheir parents had a bad day at
work or someone crossed them orthey have whatever, they know,
that's not gonna be about themyeah, you know, yeah, and I
think I'm sure you asked areally good question.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
Thank you, bonnie, for that.
You also asked a good questionhow do we help?
What are we supposed to do inthis situation?
Yeah, one is to justacknowledge that you are doing
it, right, that's one.
Secondly, you have to realizethat nothing is really your
fault, right, you're not introuble, right?
Another aspect of that is thatrealizing that you need to set
(30:34):
boundaries with people, whetherwhoever that might be, is like,
whether it's your family,whether it's your friends.
Set boundaries with yourselfand with them, saying like, if
I'm not able to meet at nineo'clock, I can't meet at nine
o'clock.
Can we meet at 830 or seveno'clock, right?
And then also identifying whatis a priority for you.
What do you feel like in yourbody when something comes up?
(30:55):
Do you feel like you're scared?
Do you feel like you're goingback to that little part of you
that started the first time?
Notice what's coming up for youin the process when somebody is
asking you to do it and then youhave to set limits, with
yourself, saying that this feelsuncomfortable for me and I
don't know how to talk to thisperson.
So what do I need to do aboutthis.
(31:15):
I need to talk to someone thatI feel comfortable with, right,
and who makes me feel safe whenI express myself, that I'm not
getting in trouble with, whomakes me realize that, ok,
here's what's happening and thisis what you could do.
And if the person say, you know, I am not ready to do this by
myself, would you like me tocome with you?
Ok, sure, let's do it together.
I'll just be there for youwhile you talk to this person,
(31:39):
right?
Those are the things.
Another part is like teachingkids early on.
That is OK for people not tolike you, yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
Right, it's okay for people to feel uncomfortable
with you.
If you like something, you likesomething.
But if you want to be generousand give to that person, go
ahead, do so.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
But you don't have to compromise yourself in order
for the world to be happy withyou, and I think, to just to
wrap up, you know ourconversation we started off with
talking about Oromos as acollective, how we are
constantly people pleasing justto fit in, to not rock the boat,
and that, I feel like, is a bigpoint in terms of not caring
(32:23):
whether people like you or not.
I think we'll solve a lot of ourproblems, you know, in terms of
you know, if you want to getthat promotion at work, if you
want to move, if you want tostart a business, if you want to
um, have goals for this year,um, not taking people into
consideration, cause I think,growing up, that was always the
(32:46):
biggest thing and it's it was.
It has always been forefront.
You know the biggest thing andit's it was.
It has always been forefront,you know.
You know, um.
And just to wrap up, I thinkyou made some really good points
about what are some things thatyou can do to combat that, but
personally, I think you knowit's hard to go and say, okay,
let's change how Ormos think asa whole, right, but you as a
(33:09):
person as a whole, right, butyou as a person you as Bonnie,
me and Dabe I think what's onething that you will do in your
life not somebody else, becauseI think this affects us
collectively, right?
Speaker 2 (33:24):
Yes For me.
I've been working on this for awhile, since I think working on
becoming, on learning a lot ofpeople, policing and dentistry
takes a lot of life work andit's not going to be done in one
tips that we're giving.
One of the things that Irealized is that if the person
doesn't tell me what I have doneto them, I am not responsible
for their emotions.
(33:45):
I am not responsible for howyou're feeling about me and I'm
not going to read the room andtrying to do your emotional
laboring for you, and I'm OKwith that.
I'm OK with the fact thatyou're going to leave or you're
going to reject me.
I'm OK with that because I haveto understand the impact its
physical impact that it has onme.
So I mean, it's something thatI've.
(34:08):
It's related to boundaries too,so I use boundaries as well and
I'm kind of very like religiousabout my boundaries, a lot of
it.
So I'm like if I can't do it, Ican't do it.
No, yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
How about you, Bonnie ?
Speaker 3 (34:22):
I feel like the habit is in a little bit further on
the spectrum the journey than Iam.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
She's almost out of it.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
She's almost out of it.
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
For me, I think it's aboutfinding my anchor and kind of
trusting myself in my own body,in the sense that, like normally
, if someone asks me to dosomething, I my instinct is how
can I make?
How can I make it work, insteadof like how?
What's taking what?
(34:49):
What is it taking from me tomake it work?
Right?
like so, if so, what I do andwhat I'm learning to do is kind
of being anchoring myself andbeing like okay, you, I, I know
you want to say, yes, I know youwant that person to be
satisfied and happy with you andyou want to be, you know,
whatever.
But then you have to be able tosay how does this make you feel
(35:12):
like, are you doing this becauseyou want to do this or are you
doing this because you want thatperson to like you, to be happy
with you, and all of thosethings?
So, and if the answer is justtaking that time, because I'm
still in that practice of itlike it, if it's not natural for
me, like you know, or it'syou're not, like it's not as
(35:33):
religious for me as it is forDahabay, like I'm not there yet,
so every time I have to askmyself are you doing this
because you want to do this?
Are you doing this for the sakeof Allah, or are you doing this
because you want to make thatperson happy and you want to um
that person to like you and tobe happy with you?
Speaker 1 (35:50):
okay, I think, for me , um, like, I think my biggest
thing has been just being me,you know, authentically, all the
time, because I feel like a lotof people will be like, oh,
she's so quiet, blah, blah,reserved, um, it's okay, right,
and I think it's more likelythan not it's because I don't
(36:14):
let people in because of fear ofrejection, um, and so I think
that's mostly what I've beenworking on is just like not
really trying not to care, um,and just being me in terms of,
like, decision making, um, andjust doing things and moving in
(36:34):
a way that I feel like I'mpleased with versus the next
person.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
Yeah, so yep and so, yeah, um, I think this is really
a great conversation, ladies.
I really do enjoyed everysingle thought that came up.
Um, we'll continue to talkabout this, and this has been a
difficult conversation see younext time join the conversation
(37:02):
in the comment section or on oursocial media pages.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
We do not have all the answers, and our biggest
goal is to kick off theconversation and get it started.
May Allah accept our effortsand use us for catalysts of
change.
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