Divorce Doesn't Mean You Failed

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Divorce affects our communities deeply yet remains a topic shrouded in shame and misunderstanding despite its prevalence and our Islamic tradition that address it.

• Approximately 40% of marriages in America end in divorce, with lack of commitment cited as a primary cause
• Many couples spend time planning weddings but fail to discuss day-to-day realities of marriage
• Dr. Gottman's research shows respect and dignity issues predict divorce 94% of the time
• Critical relationship breakdown patterns include criticism, contempt, defensiveness, and stonewalling
• Children of divorced parents face increased risks of behavioral problems, mental health issues, and physical health concerns
• The grieving process after divorce includes mourning not just the relationship but extended family connections
• Community members should offer support rather than judgment to divorced individuals
• Taking time to heal and process through therapy can be valuable before considering remarriage
• Divorced individuals deserve compassion and understanding, not gossip or tabloidization

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
As-salamu alaykum, welcome to Difficult
Conversations where we tackletaboo topics in a safe space
through empowerment andeducation.
Hi everybody, welcome back.
Today we are going to betackling divorce in our
community and as a podcast welike to talk a lot about

(00:24):
relationships and you know howto get into one and what happens
.
So today we wanted to just gointo what's going on in the
community in terms of divorceand how this has affected us as
a whole.
To start us off, I wanted tokind of go into some statistics

(00:46):
of the wider community.
So in America in 2024, so thisyear so divorce rates are at 40%
and according to the NationalFatherhood Initiative National
Survey of Marital Strengths theNational Fatherhood Initiative

(01:07):
National Survey of MaritalStrengths one of the key things
that they list as causes orthings leading into divorce is a
lack of commitment, where, like, one or two of the partners
feel unprepared or committed.
And I would say, likeanecdotally, this is probably
what I see a lot too, justtalking to people who know,
people who have gone throughthis and I don't have, you know,

(01:31):
a lot of anything to back thisup in terms of like case studies
or anything like that but itseems like people are divorcing
early on.
You know, I would say withinthe first like year or a year
and a half early on.
You know out there within thefirst like year or year and a
half, um, so I'm wondering ifthat has been the case for you

(01:52):
guys, um, and what are wethinking about that?

Speaker 2 (01:57):
Um, early on divorce?
I don't know that much.
I mean, it makes sense to behonest, especially within our
community.
Um, I have, um, I think, thefirst year of my marriage I had
a lot of friends that gotmarried around the same time and
, even though my circle ispretty small, like they would

(02:20):
tell me about their friends thatthey got married and they had a
completely differentunderstanding of you know, they
didn't talk about like themarried couple, didn't talk
about in detail what to expectfrom the marriage or what it's
that marriage was supposed tolook like.
Therefore, they were in for ashock when they got in there.

(02:42):
They were in for a shock whenthey got in there and there, you
know, there's that idea of like.
So, yes, I have had a lot ofanecdotal stories that I've
heard of people kind of justcalling it quits right after
Because, like I said, the lackof pre-marital conversations
about marriage, about and Ithink there's a lot of times

(03:06):
people spend a lot of timetalking about the wedding, the
nikah, the party, the honeymoonand planning all of that and not
a lot about, like, the nittygritty everyday life of marriage
.

Speaker 3 (03:22):
I think our previous conversation we talked about
relationship and courting andwhat does that look like.
Even we talked about our seasontwo or three as well, and how
couples are exposed to marriageearly on in their, you know, as
an adolescent, a young person,and exposure to marriage from

(03:43):
their own family members.
And that previous episode kindof brought some things that you
know related to this today'sconversation, which is what is
divorce like for a lot of peopleand, culturally and
traditionally Islamically, howdo we kind of maneuver through
that and when the exposure ofrelationship it looks different

(04:03):
for every household?
I think one of the things thatI also kind of notice in a
therapy platform and as atherapist knowing that when
people come to therapy usuallythey don't do pre-med or
counseling and trying tounderstand what does this
relationship entail for me?
How do I navigate through theheart and the ease, the

(04:26):
day-to-day, the conflictresolutions, navigating
responsibilities, financialunderstanding those things
doesn't really come up except afantasy idea of getting married
and being part of the club ofbeing married.
The title sometimes feelsreally good for many people
because everybody around you isdoing it and marriage is the one

(04:48):
aspect of relationship that ispraised.
If you're not in that club, youare looked in a specific way
that you're not.
Something is off with you and Iwonder if we are actually
thinking about marriage as in asense of like family, two people
coming together to establishfamily and relationships, versus

(05:11):
kind of taking it as like Ihaven't done my own hard work of
my own baggages or challengesthat I deal with in life and I'm
coming to this relationshipsometime also expecting this
person to kind of heal methrough those things or hoping
to fix some of the things thatI'm dealing with.
And I think that first yearrelationship is probably is part

(05:36):
of that is where, like peopleare kind of having preconceived
notion of what relationship andmarriage is supposed to look
like.
Is it like dating or is it likeday-to-day life and how do we
kind of connect and talk to eachother?
And so I wonder for you two whoare married, what was the first
the beginning adjustment waslike for you, and then maybe

(05:58):
kind of go through talking aboutthe reality of what other
families and individuals gothrough divorce.

Speaker 1 (06:06):
So I guess what I'm hearing you say is that we are
people who are going intomarriage are just they're not
ready for marriage and theyhaven't done the necessary work
required to, whether it's theirtraumas or all of the inner work

(06:26):
that they have to do.
So then, when they get into arelationship with somebody
they're not able to do well inthat adjustment period is what
I'm hearing you say.
Do you think there's somethingelse going on?
Because I think you know, evenlooking back when I, when I was
getting married, um, I would saythat I was pretty naive,

(06:49):
definitely, um, and but I, but I, I wouldn't say that,
regardless of how, um, anyissues that might arise, I
wouldn't say that divorce wouldbe like, easily pronounced for
myself.
Okay, does that make sense,right?
So I'm wondering if there'ssomething wider going on that's

(07:14):
affecting young people todaythat are getting married, and
why is it?
Easily, people are just callingit quits.

Speaker 2 (07:29):
I have two thoughts about that.
I think the first thing is that, yes, we, especially for the
diaspora, we are living in aspace where people are like the
40% that we're talking aboutspecifically, 40% that we're
talking about specifically.
I wonder how much of that is inthat data collected is our

(07:50):
people.
That might not even encompassthe Oremon East African
community.
It might even be higher yeah,east African community, right,
because we don't necessarilyparticipate in data and censuses
like that.
So, saying that Iuses like that, so saying that I feel like
that 40 percent has a hugeinfluence, and also the sanctity

(08:11):
of uh, relationships, thesanctity of marriage is a lot
more um, diluted now, um, thereI.
The reason why I say that it'snot like me trying to be cynical
or anything, but there's'seither, there's two routes
people go, and I think it's oneis that I think people get

(08:32):
married for honorable reasons,to not commit sin, right, so
they're trying to like just,either the parents are trying
like they see this guy and thisgirl are talking to each other
and their parents are like let'sget them together so that at
least we protect them from that,but then, while in that process
they don't never, the parentsnever really stop and like have

(08:53):
a conversation with them abouthow they're supposed to um
engage to.
Actually, me and my husbandwere having this conversation
just so that I could get preppedfor this meeting, this um
podcast, and we were having theconversation about gender roles,
right, and I think in ourparents' age or in our
grandparents' age, there wasexpectation and, yes, they

(09:19):
didn't have premaritalcounseling, they didn't have
therapists at the time.
But if you look at times backthen and I'm not looking at it
with rose colored glasses,because even in those days and
those marriages have problems,right, but there's this idea
that people go into it knowingthat what is expected of them,
knowing that what they'resupposed to bring to the table,

(09:40):
knowing that, like um, being thehead of the house doesn't have
anything to do with monetaryvalues given to you by god,
right, um, being the neck of thehouse doesn't have to do
anything to do with, again, your, your femininity or masculinity
.
It has to do a lot about by therole given to you by god.

(10:02):
There's, like these are rolesordained by god and therefore
the community understands that.
You know, the married peopleunderstand that.
So when they go into thesethings they have it's not
competition.
Everybody's kind of just likegoing into the role that they
feel comfortable in and theyfeel like, okay, I can do this.

(10:22):
And then, even if, like, thisguy is not bringing in you know,
the money, even if I am goingto work to help, you know, fund
the household, that doesn't makethat this guy is not the head
of the household.
Just because you know he's, youknow, staying at home and
taking care of the family, itdoesn't mean I'm not the heart

(10:43):
and I'm not you know, likethere's a lot more of my
understanding and my perspectiveis, seeing from an outside
perspective is that there's alot more competition when there
doesn't need to be.
There's a lot moremisunderstanding of people's
roles.
There's a lot, a lot moremisunderstanding of what

(11:05):
compromise looks like, uh, whatum, marriage even looks like,
what happiness looks like, whatis the purpose.
And sometimes I feel like, um,looks like what happiness looks
like, what is the purpose?
And sometimes I feel like, um,people go into marriage seeking
happiness and they don't realizehappiness is a roller coaster.
Sometimes you're really happy,sometimes you're not so happy

(11:30):
and, um, if you're alwaysseeking and like, searching for,
like you're in the pursuit ofhappiness and when, the minute
you don't have that minute,you're not in that bliss space,
you're going to get disappointed.
But if you're in the pursuit ofhappiness and the minute you
don't have that minute, you'renot in that bliss space, you're
going to get disappointed.
But if you're not staying there, holding onto this thing for
something greater than happiness, you know, then it's easy for
you to exit because there's nomore happiness anymore for that
specific amount of time.

(11:50):
And the last thing I want tosay about this is that, like I
remember, like I um remember,like this interview Michelle
Obama gave about her marriageand she was saying like, uh, for
the eight years of theirmarriage, she was very unhappy
and she was just like, but shewas staying in the marriage
because she knew who she married.

(12:11):
Uh, the person was a kind person.
The person was like, you know,she loved the person.
The person was doing the bestthat they can to.
You know, her husband was doingthe best that he can to be able
to be there.
It's just that they weren'tclicking at the time.
So they there had and they were, you know, they had bigger
things that they were marriedfor, including their children,

(12:32):
and they loved each other and itwas technically a healthy
marriage, right, and it's justthat at that moment they weren't
seeing eye to eye.
So she was able to endure thateight years because of the
bigger picture.
And then obviously when theygot out of that rut it became
roses and butterflies andwhatever.
But then for most people howmany people stick through eight

(12:54):
years of rut?

Speaker 1 (12:55):
Yeah, I will say that in our older generation it is
true that you know, they knewtheir expectations and what
they're supposed to be doing inthe marriage.
But I also want to point outthat in a lot of those cases the
women didn't necessarily havethe agency.

(13:16):
You know, even if they wantedto leave the marriage, they
might have been tied to the guyfor money or culturally.
You know, it's like sacrifice.
We don't necessarily tell themup front, but we kind of it's an

(13:38):
unspoken rule, kind of that,you know, sacrifice your
happiness so that at least seeyour kids through it.
Yeah, you know, and so I thinkone of the things that is
happening today is that women nolonger need that financial
support.
And I say that to say that youknow it's.

(14:00):
I feel like we're kind of onthe outskirts of two extremes
and we definitely need to comeback to the middle, because
sometimes, just because you canleave, it might not necessarily
be the right thing to do so.

Speaker 2 (14:15):
Yeah, and I think, just to go back a little bit
into the understanding andcourtship and marriage that
Habih had brought up, I thinkthe idea of talking things
before you get married inexcessive way to you know.
Obviously, you know, once youget into it it's going to be
different.
Some of that, some of thethings are going to be different

(14:36):
, but once you start talkingabout things, you understand.
Okay, this is how so-and-sogrew up, this is how I grew up.
This is what he saw beingmodeled as marriage and this is
what I saw.
How did these things cometogether?
What are our expectations ofmarriage?
What is my expectation of myhusband?
What is her expectation of hiswife?
Marriage, what is myexpectation of my husband?
This, what is her expectationof his wife?

(14:57):
Um, what are the things that?
Uh, how do we plan on rearingour children?
How do who?
Who's expected to be thebreadwinner of the family?
You know, does that matter?
Who does?
Does the wife wants to stay athome and take care of the child
and, if so, how are we going tomake it work?
You know, what is our long-termfuture, like, you know, what
does that look like?
Also, like, do we want a nanny?

(15:18):
Do we like you?

Speaker 3 (15:19):
you know do we not want a?

Speaker 2 (15:20):
nanny.
How do we interact with ourin-laws?
How much do we involve ourin-laws, you know?
So you might be really close toyour family and he might not be
really close to his family.
So how do we get you know, like, all of these things, the
minutiae of things, having eventhings you don't feel like are
important how many times youknow who's gonna do the dishes

(15:42):
in the house?
All right, how do we dividehouse chores?
Uh, how do we take it?
Because, like, unless you havethese conversations ahead of
time, before you are married,when you are in there you're
going to be navigating the worldwith expectations that are not

(16:03):
spoken.
And then you're thinking, whereyou guys have the same
understanding but you don't.
So, like you know, the guymight be thinking oh, you know
she, this is her responsibilityto take care of household chores
because I go to work, but thenyou have an understanding that
that is, you know, um a communalresponsibility, and he might

(16:27):
not be doing it to be hurtful ormean, or you know what it's
called um misogynist, but youmight perceive his inaction as
misogyny.
So, like you know, I thinkuncommunicated thoughts and
expectations are one of thebiggest deterrents and
dissolvers of marriage.
So I think having thesecommunications ahead of time,

(16:50):
and if we can do it in a way ina space that is in a counselor's
, you know's room, that would begreat, because then that's a
controlled space.
But then if you can do itoutside of that too, that would
be better.
I mean not better, but thatwould be good too.

Speaker 3 (17:05):
So one of the things that I notice as a marriage
sometimes couples- therapists orindividual therapists is that
usually people come to therapy.
Individual therapist is thatusually people come to therapy.
Usually the woman come totherapy at the rope of the end
of relationship, I feel like forme.
So which me bringing up thatpoint.
I'm going to bring outsomething else is that there is

(17:26):
a psychologist name is DrGottman.
He specifically focused oncouples therapy, that's him and
his wife.
They specifically focus on theaspect of what Ashley predicts
94% of marriage to be.
Divorce is usually not even thething that we expect, right,
it's like it's not financial,it's not that somebody else's

(17:49):
trauma, it's simply a respectand dignity.
And the way he talks about isthat he kind of talks about four
areas and five areas I think isone of them is like harsh
startup, like when they first acouple, when they first get
together, what would that looklike in their own first
adjustment to the relationship,which is what I was bringing up
early on, and then when, as therelationship progress, some of

(18:13):
the things that comes up is thathow do we navigate through
conflict?
Or even a feedback Likecriticism is a big one, contempt
is a big one, defensiveness isa big one, stonewalling is a big
one.
Stonewalling is like silenttreatments, when argument arises
and one person is an anxiousand the other person is an

(18:34):
avoidance.
When argument arises and oneperson's an anxious and the
other person is an avoidance,and they leave the environment
and they don't actually comeback and have the conversation
again.
Um, and body language is likebeing very and like you know
what I mean just kind of verylike negatively, not responding,
engaging to that person.
And then another thing that hetalks about is that failures to
repair the, the attempt of whathappened Right when avoidance

(18:58):
happened, the situation happened.
You have this big argument andthen all of a sudden, you don't
come back and address it andtalk about how it affected you,
how this person got affected,and repair that.
So in the future, if we do haveanother different type of
conflict, we know how to do it.
In the future, if we do haveanother different type of
conflict, we know how to do it.
Another one is that holding onto bad memory.

(19:19):
This is something that I alsosee and all of this is I've been
noticing it because I usuallysee one partner and then I
recommend it to a couple oftherapists is that there is
constant holding on to the past.
Right, there's a specificincident, that somebody in that
relationship is not willing tolet it go.
It can be like I didn't want tolive in Minnesota and you made

(19:40):
me stay here, right, I wanted tolive in this place and you
didn't even listen to me then.
And then that memory comes upin the same conversation of
things that arises.
So when, by the time, therelationship person comes like
well, when I first started Ikind of took on a lot of
responsibility this is what Ihear from an individual.

(20:02):
I took on a lot ofresponsibilities.
I was doing the all-dayemotional laboring.
I was taking care of hisfeeling, my feelings, the kid's
feeling, and is still doing allthe work.
I don't get a lot of help andhe constantly tells me that I'm
not doing this and this and this, right, and then I get really
exhausted and I become very numbto it.
And now I don't even haveemotionally actively present in

(20:25):
the relationship because all Iwant to do is like some days I
think about would it be easierif I can do this by myself,
right?
So one of those things that I'mnoticing that comes up and
those are the things that assomeone who's single right would
never realize.
This is the reason why peopleget divorced.
I thought it would be likeobvious stuff, like money and

(20:47):
abuse and some things like, likeyou know for a fact, the reason
.
But I've never thought thatdignity, integrity and respect
is the reason why people arelike I can't do this, yeah.

Speaker 1 (20:59):
I think that makes a lot of sense because even me,
like, there are certain thingswhere, like it's on your mind
sometimes, you know and it willaffect regardless of if you want
to.
It's on your mind sometimes,you know, and it will affect
regardless of if you want to Sayyou had a big argument.
The next day I can almost tellthat I'm still thinking about

(21:21):
what we've argued about before,because our interactions are a
little bit tainted and you knowI'm holding on to something.
And the crazy thing is, forpeople who tend to live in you
know your head, which I think isa lot of women we take apart
certain situations and we'reconstantly nitpicking at it and

(21:41):
stuff like that At least that'swhat I do and on the other side
your husband probably doesn'teven know anything about it.

Speaker 3 (21:50):
He's just living his best life.

Speaker 1 (21:52):
But these things kind of build up over time and I can
definitely see how one dayyou're just going to be like I'm
over it.

Speaker 3 (22:00):
Yeah, I'm like emotionally numb to this aspect
of conflict and I think whenwe're talking about this
conversation today, it's like,well, if this is what's kind of
developing and like boiling upin the couple's relationship,
what happens to the kids whoexpose that?

Speaker 1 (22:18):
Yeah, that's where.
That's where I was going to go.
Next is that a lot of timeswomen tend to stay for the kids
point.
Is divorce better than stayingand having your kids exposed to
all of this like passiveaggressiveness and and and all

(22:40):
that stuff?

Speaker 2 (22:42):
I mean sorry I, I I had a point.
Uh, for the, you know fightlanguages a little bit just to
go back a little bit.
Um, when we, when we're talkingabout fight languages and we
were talking about fightlanguages and you guys were
talking about, like you know,nitpicking and so on and so
forth, I think again, I alwaysgo back to having you know.

(23:03):
If it happens once, shame on us.
If it happens, you know, likeyou know twice, then it's a
problem, meaning that if youdon't understand that you, if
something is unaddressed orsomething is unspoken and you're
spending the next day, not youspecifically, that's fine, I do,

(23:29):
I will sit on it and I willdissect it and I'll take it to
the hell, like I will just goand like atomically, I will
dissect it to that point and belike what did he mean about that
?
He turned this way when helooked like this and he said
this, and he said that and histone elevated and his voice was
a little bit high and he, youknow, he was looking at his

(23:49):
phone.
So that means all of that,right?
So, and like you said, he'sjust like I said what I said,
and that's it.
It's very plain and simple andwhatever I think, if whoever it
could be the man and it could bethe woman who dissects stuff
right.
It's our responsibility Because, again, we're working.

(24:11):
For one thing married coupleshave to understand is that it's
not about you, it's not abouthim, it's not about the egos and
the prides of the individualperson, but it's about
protecting that unity,protecting that thing that you
guys are building together.
And if that means that yourmisunderstanding, if that
person's intention, is going toderail the success of this thing

(24:33):
, then you have to beintrospective enough to be like,
okay, I am taking it places,but he might be just chilling
and not have any idea of whereI'm taking it.
So let me pause.
Stop, because all of thesethings that are driving, at
least for me, was myinsecurities, it was my trauma,
it was like my abandonmentissues, my anxiety, attachment,

(24:55):
right, all of these things.
So I have to be like, okay, Iam projecting a lot of my issues
onto this specific issue.
Therefore, let me pause.
Let me ask questions, right,let me be curious about where
he's standing.
What did he mean when he?
Or what does she mean whenshe's asking, when she said
these things?
When she grows, what grows,what was coming up for her?

(25:16):
Again, that takes a lot ofpatience and a lot of like, um,
uh, I want to say selflessness,but then again, you're not doing
it for you, you're not doing itfor him, you're doing it for
that unity, that thing thatyou're building together right.
So, by being curious and bystopping yourself from going
down the drain, you say okay, Iunderstand that you want to walk

(25:40):
away from this conversation.
I understand that this is notlike.
You are not someone that wantsto tackle something right away.
But I just want to tell you thatif we walk away from this
conversation or from this issuefor far too long, I'm going to
have 10,000 more points aboutthis one thing you know, because
I have spent time dissecting it, so I'll give you like I'll be

(26:02):
happy, what, what time works foryou?
Let's compromise.
Okay, you know you want to havelike an hour of a break.
Cool, I'll, I'll try to settlemy mind for an hour.
I'll watch a movie, whatever itis, and then let's come back to
this, because then you're notgoing to be answering.
If it's more than that, you'renot going to be answering for
this one issue, it's going to befor the 10,000 issues that I
brought up dissecting thesituation.

(26:23):
Does that make sense?

Speaker 3 (26:25):
Yeah, In that situation, right, it's never
about the issue, though.
Right, it's never about the.
The things that you've beendissecting is how you felt in
that experiences, right, and Ithink what one of the repairment
of the relationship is like I'msorry that I didn't really pay

(26:45):
attention to you, even thoughit's not about like, oh this,
don't give me excuses of why youwere not you, you probably were
not right.
I'm sorry that I wasn't payingattention.
I I need to do better.
Right, that's the repairmentthat was supposed to be needed,
and I think what I was trying tobring out is that the anxious
people, which is a lot of theclients that I work with, is

(27:07):
that they don't know how to dothe repairment.
Right, they don't know how totalk about.
What am I really mad about?
Is it how he looked?
Is it what he said?
Yeah, it's a feeling, issomething that I'm familiar with
feeling this way.
Yeah, and he's triggering thatagain.
Yeah, and, but I'm not blaminghim.
I'm hoping he understands tosay something but I'm

Speaker 1 (27:27):
sorry about that.
Yeah, also I think it.
It you have to get to thatpoint to recognize it, like I
think, as a person.
Right, but that's what Bonniesaid.
Yeah.
Introspection, right, yeah, butwhat if you're not even there
yet, though you know what I mean?
Yes, that too, yeah.
You come to a marriage and youare inexperienced.

(27:47):
You're young, whatever color,whatever it is, you know, you
don't even, you can't even, youcan't even put words to what
you're feeling.

Speaker 2 (27:54):
Yeah, oh yeah, I think you know, sorry to cut you
off.
Go ahead, it's fine, go ahead.
No, I was going to say that yes, like when you are there.
I think one thing that helpedme is that you have to
understand that when you'rewalking in, whatever environment
you're walking into, howinexperienced you are, how much

(28:17):
knowledge you have, because it'sokay to say you know what.
I really wasn't prepared forthis.
I'm kind of winging this.
But if you're winging it likethe first month, cool.
If you're still winging it intwo years in, then it's a
problem.
Meaning I am really really bigin personal accountability.
We can only control what we doas individuals, right, and how

(28:41):
we contribute to the either theconstruction or deconstruction
of anything right.
So I and I say this because andI'm not trying to like point
fingers or anything, because Ihave also an anxious attachment
and I have also these thingsthat I bring up and that come up
for me but I have to be able totake a deep breath and be like,

(29:03):
okay, which part of this, likethe habe said, am I really?
And that comes from lookingoutside of yourself, looking
into, like reading books,listening to to podcasts, like
making sure that you know,because you know they say that
the person that knows they don'tknow is a student.
Teach them Right.
So if you don't know, and youdon't know that you don't like,

(29:24):
you don't know what to find out.

Speaker 1 (29:27):
But what if you don't know?
That you don't know is what I'masking.
You know what I mean, because Ithink a lot of us, that's the
thing.
No, no because we're talking toour community.
Right, like, I think, the vastmajority of East Africans,
they've seen how their parentsdo relationships.
You know, and I don't knowabout you guys, but the
relationships that I've seen inmy circles, my friends or

(29:50):
whatever, it's not like.
A lot of them are not healthy.
Yes, you know, you're like ourparents, like yeah, yeah, you,
you didn't see good conflictresolution, yeah, you didn't see
emotion, you didn't see ahealthy way to resolve issues.
So then you get into a marriageand if, if you don't have like

(30:11):
you're as good as what you'reexposed to yes, you know what I
mean yeah, so if you, if youdon't, if you don't know what
books to read, you don't know,like how to even go about it,
then you're, you're kind of likeyou.
You have to wing it yes.

Speaker 2 (30:25):
So I think for these people.

Speaker 1 (30:28):
I'm guessing if which are the vast majority.

Speaker 2 (30:30):
I would argue yes, so and if these people are either
in our podcast, they're ourlisteners or something, I feel
like the best place to start isthat actually writing things
down, saying like okay, I got,because you don't know we get it
.
You don't know that we don'tknow we get it.
Okay, now you're listening tous.

(30:51):
Well, I would say and I'm sureyou know, in the habit you guys
could, like I would say, writeit down.
Write down like I am upset.
I'm upset because apsharo said a, b and c or, and why is this
making me upset?
What is that triggering?
Okay, so apsharo said that mylike, whatever I said wasn't so

(31:13):
smart.
Is that why I'm really upset?
Because she said that, okay,then does that trigger something
in me that makes me that thinksthat I'm not a smart person?
You know what I mean?
Kind of just going into andwhere does that come from?
Okay, so how can I have aconversation with Apsharo to let
her know that that commenttriggers a part of me that's

(31:34):
very insecure about myintelligence?
So next time, if she hassomething to say about, like
something I said that wasn'treally a smart decision or
whatever, to kind of bring it upin a different way, you know
what I mean.
So like being able to write itdown and break it down is a way
to like start off.
I think writing not writing itdown to keep track of what your
husband and wife said and keepreceipt, but to kind of like,

(31:57):
bring I call it, take yourthoughts to court, and by
writing it down I'm writing thepros and the cons and whys and
the hows, and also giving peoplethe benefit of the doubt.
The doubt, that's the biggestadvice is that giving people the

(32:17):
benefit of the doubt and, likealways moving from the space of,
okay, I know in her heartApsharo is not trying to hurt my
feelings.
I know she's not trying to,like you know, pound me in the
head and make me feel such atype of way.
Again, you might be married tosomeone that is trying to hurt
your feelings and that's acompletely different
conversation.
But you know, we're kind ofmoving from the best case
scenario right, and saying like,okay, I'll give her this
benefit of the doubt and thenmove and like, what is the

(32:39):
things that I'm projecting intothis issue?
I think that's the one good,not solution, but one good
exercise that I would recommend.
What would you guys would say?

Speaker 3 (32:49):
What would you, what were you saying?

Speaker 1 (32:56):
What do you mean when you said they don't know what
they don't know?
Basically that, like they havean issue and they've had,
they've never encountered it, orthey haven't seen their parents
go through it, right, so theyjust don't know what to do about
it.
Right, and you don't.
You can't, like, come up withintelligent new answers if you
don't have the exposure to it.
That's what I mean.

Speaker 3 (33:15):
I think those are a good question, right.
Um, I think here, as atherapist, I would kind of just
let them to be curious aboutwhat they don't know right, this
is a new issue.
I don't have an answer for it.
Yeah, even I can tell.
I can sit with you and you cometo me saying I don't know what

(33:36):
I don't know, so I need you togive me an answer.

Speaker 1 (33:38):
Let's be curious about what you don't know.

Speaker 3 (33:40):
What's coming up for you?
What are you noticing?
Disinformation when else didyou heard about this thing that
happened?
Who else do you know that,whether it's in person, social
media or who else?
Kind of talk about things.
Right, I think today, today,today's relationship has so much
resources, like when I say, somuch reason.

(34:01):
There's like so many freetherapy out there that you don't
even have to come to therapyoffice.

Speaker 1 (34:06):
Yet do you think that that's also like problematic?
Yeah, because you have like allof these free resources, but
without guidance, and it couldreally tip you over the edge too
.

Speaker 3 (34:16):
But that guidance is like, it's about you now, right?
Like, let's say, for example,my biggest challenge for me
right now is that I want to move, but I don't know what to do
about that.
I don't know anybody who hasmoved, right.
I don't know anybody who hasdone anything about that, right?
So what do I do?
I can find somebody on andsocial media that'll tell me oh,

(34:37):
I moved this, but this I'mgathering information doesn't
have to apply to me, doesn'thave to apply to my situation.

Speaker 1 (34:43):
But no, what I'm saying is that sometimes like
certain things out there aboutrelationships, and it can be
really toxic you know, like yes,it is, but that's also, you
have to take your owndiscernment Right.

Speaker 3 (34:56):
Like, ok, I'm taking this and if, if, like some of
the things that you talk about,it's like having slam as an
anchor to kind of figure thingsout, is that OK?
This toxic information doesn'treally align with.

Speaker 1 (35:08):
Let me filter it.
At least try to filter it, yeah.

Speaker 3 (35:10):
Right, it doesn't align with my value, but they're
saying something that to dowith my own experiences of
childhood that's related to me,right, so I can leave what
doesn't apply to me but I cantake what might be helpful for
me in this situation.

Speaker 2 (35:25):
Right.
Yes, I think, because I'mhaving feelings come up when I
hear like because, specificallywith social media right now and
this is very I can relate tothis when it comes to like ADHD
content that's out there and itfeels like everybody is the new

(35:48):
ADHD expert and I don't know why, because some people spoke it
into existence in my world thatyou have it.

Speaker 3 (35:57):
I didn't exist.
I just watch your behavior, andthen that you pray, wait, wait,
wait.

Speaker 2 (36:01):
This is news, go ahead no, I'm not diagnosed or
anything, but like all of thesudden it's on my feed.
Okay, because you know my phoneis around, uh, when people are
talking.

Speaker 3 (36:10):
So excuse me, you are feeding something and then
you're blaming somebody else forit.
No, no, no, okay, go back, goback.

Speaker 2 (36:19):
Long story short, the reason why I say this is like
and then all of a sudden I seethis content and then I'm like,
oh wow, this applies to me, orthis applies to me, or this
doesn't apply to me.
And then I kind of was justlike doing research.
Actually, like you know,there's feed and then there's
research right, and then Ithere's research right, and then
, um, I was talking also to mytherapist and she's like don't

(36:40):
do that, because there's a lotof like anecdotal stories that
people tell, and just becauseyou relate to that thing doesn't
mean that they are experiencingthat thing because of their
ADHD.
You know what I mean?
That could be somethingdifferent.
And then there's also contentcreators that are just there to
they take and nobody'sfact-checking nothing Exactly.
They take little of this thing,little of that thing, and they

(37:01):
make it make it like really cooland really fun to listen to, or
, oh wow, this is really thisapplies.
It's very problematic.
And then, when you apply intorelationships, there are so many
like people that that, again,like you said, there it's not
fact-checked, you don't, wedon't know their background, we
don't know their emotionalhistory, that we don't know

(37:23):
their agenda.
Don't you think both?

Speaker 3 (37:24):
fat can be like.
Two things can be true at thesame time, though that the same
thing you can say about socialmedia is like where it can be
harmful but it can be helpfultoo.
Oh, definitely.
So, for people that we'retalking about in a divorce
situation, who has no idea aboutgetting to therapy, right, like
, getting to therapy itself islike climbing a mountain, and

(37:47):
they need some sort of relief,they need to have understanding
of their current situation.
So then, what do we do forthose people?
Right, like, how do we kind ofokay, this is information that's
available, maybe this is whereyou can go to an expert if it
doesn't really work for you?
So I wonder if there is abalance of both and saying, hey,
you're right, there is harmfulinformation and people do edit

(38:11):
and this is a place to start.

Speaker 2 (38:14):
Yeah, I think what we're saying at the end of it
all is like taking everythingwith a grain of salt, you know
even us, take us with a grain ofsalt, you know so that we're
not the buy all be all and no,no, neither that should social
media be the buy all be all.
Right, I think that's the mostlike.
I agree with you there isdefinitely a possibility and

(38:35):
there's so many great thingsthat can come out of social
media.
Definitely a possibility, andthere's so many great things
that can come out of socialmedia, and it could be like a
really good jumping off point.
But it is a jumping off point.
It's not like where youconclude your you know, no, yeah
, it's not end all so we weretalking about earlier how the
relationship of couple affectchildren.

Speaker 3 (38:53):
yeah, right, and in the process of divorce, right.
So this topic is about divorceand we're talking about divorce
and one of the reasons earlierwe were talking about how
divorce affect kids and affectsfamily, affects couple, and so,
when it comes to children, whatare you guys seeing in other
people's relationship and howthe divorce process affected

(39:14):
those children?

Speaker 1 (39:16):
I think it depends.
I think every situation isdifferent and you know nobody
knows the ins and outs of howthey got to that.
You know decision, except thetwo couple.
And sometimes it could be goodfor the kids because then they
don't see their kids I meantheir parents arguing every day.

(39:38):
It's not a toxic household andyou know there's no like.
It's just not something goodfor them to witness.
And other times, you know, itcould be good for the kids to
have both parents in the houseif they're able to amicably
co-parent, you know, in ahealthy, meaningful way.

Speaker 3 (39:58):
I think we talked about this in the planning of
this episode that if the coupleare mutually on the same page
and the children are the mainfocus, they can do that right.
So they have to really gettheir stuff out of the way and
saying, okay, let's have a veryhealthy household for their kids
so they can grow and havestability and support and love.

(40:22):
And that's for the people.
That we're not talking aboutlike harmful experiences and
abuse and other way.
We're talking about just peoplewho want to get divorced but
they're staying together fortheir kids.
And that does exist.
And I also noticed that therelationship where there are
couples who one of the couplewould be involving their kids in
this process of like parents,conflict Right by you know I

(40:47):
don't know if you guys heard ofthis concept when there's like a
parentified child, there's achild in that household, become
the leader of the house.
We can be the oldest child, canbe the second, it doesn't
really matter about the birthhouse.
It can be the oldest child, itcan be the second oldest, it
doesn't really matter about thebirth order, it can be one of
the child who one of the parentswill kind of like put them like
as a mediation between them twoand the way that also

(41:08):
significantly affect that childgrowing around relationship,
even with that person.
It increases so much resentmentand I think parents they're not
aware, some parents I'm notsaying all of them, but some
parents are not really aware howtheir behavior, that they think
that is supposed to be helpingtheir relationship, is
eventually also affect kids yeah.

Speaker 1 (41:29):
Or using their child as like a stick, as a pawn yes,
yeah.

Speaker 3 (41:33):
As a pawn between them two and which, in a sense,
what I've noticed is that, atleast in my office, is that what
I notice is that that childresents that parent so much that
the relationship eventuallybeing affected by it between
that child and that parent likethe way they navigate their

(41:54):
conflict, their impairment evenaddressing issues that now I
can't even have any coherentconversation with one of my
parents because of that specificreason, and that is so normal
for a lot of young kids.
I wonder if there are likechildren and couples out there
like handling conflict, what doyou guys think is the best way

(42:14):
to address conflict as a couplewhen you're addressing your
issues?

Speaker 2 (42:21):
I, I'm sorry.
I I hate to do this all thetime, but I want to just go back
a little bit and I will answeryour question, just because I
kind of was um, were you evenlistening to the whole montage?
No, I was, I was, I was I was,and I think I just have more to
add to it and just because I waskind of trying to make sure

(42:42):
that we have a bigger, like notI don't say bigger picture, but
a bigger, we are painting abigger picture Because the
reality of children of divorcedparents is that the chances of
them having unhealthy, or therisk of them having health

(43:04):
issues, the risk of them havingbehavioral issues, the risk of
them having even if it'samicable or not, of having
mental health issues, kind ofskyrockets.

Speaker 1 (43:17):
So you're saying kids who've divorced completely?
Yes, yes.

Speaker 2 (43:22):
Sorry, sorry, no.
Divorced or separated parentsOkay, regardless if it is
amicable or not, regardless ofif it's a healthy divorce or not
, it skyrockets in a largemargin.
So saying that, and the reasonwhy I want to go back to that

(43:43):
before I answer your question,is that I think when people
consider divorce again I'm onlyspeaking to families or partners
that are in a quote-unquoteunabusive, you know like it's
not a toxic marriage in thesense that it's not a threat to
their safety, a threat to theirmental health, and so on and so

(44:05):
forth and they're just doing itbecause either they're falling
out of love with each other orthey're no longer compatible,
and so on and so forth.
So and I'm not saying again,I'm trying to be very careful
here I'm not saying that is aminute reason or a not valid
reason to divorce.
I'm not saying again, I'mtrying to be very careful here,
I'm not saying that is a minutereason or a not valid reason to
divorce.
I'm just saying when it'sregarding to this, I think to
try harder.

(44:25):
And when we were planning forthis episode, I've talked about
how the idea of making divorcethe absolute last resort in
these kinds of situations is themost healthiest thing to do for
children?
Um it, because we, we areprotecting them from the.
And also, you know, there wasactually a statistic that I was

(44:47):
just reading from the nationalInstitute of national Institute
of health, and they were talkingabout how, uh, children of
divorced families also have theI think it's 1.2% increase in
having a lower socioeconomicstatus than children of married
couples.

(45:07):
So we have to make sure that weare considering all of these
things when we are taking thesteps to separate the steps to
get divorced, are taking thesteps to separate the steps to
get divorced, because if we cando anything to salvage this
marriage, if we can do anythingto come back to that, our
healthy space, I think it isworth the fight, it's worth the

(45:27):
try, no matter like how hard itis and so on and so forth, for
the sake of the children.
I think that is one thing Iwant to make sure that we
emphasize.
And then, when you said theimpact of divorce on children, I
think that was your question,or do you want to read it?
I don't remember my question.
The impacts of divorce onchildren and how that affects
children.
I think I do agree with youguys, when it is amicable and

(45:53):
when it is um, it is better.
I also think that, um, lettingpeople, kids, know what happened
in the most honest but likekindest way possible, without
like, uh, pointing the finger.
Well, if you have to point thefinger, point the finger, but
but honest, you know, like if ahusband cheated or a wife

(46:15):
cheated, say so yeah but if wedon't, kids tend to put blame on
themselves.
They're, they are very muchexperts and very much prone to
blame themselves for theproblems and the issues of
adults.
So making sure that we are veryclear that it's not their fault
, it's not you know, and theyhave.
They are like the best thingthat could have come out of this

(46:38):
marriage and they are the goodpart of this marriage, and
making sure that we areemphasizing that this has
nothing to do with them, andmommy and daddy love them and
they are their priority.
So I think that would be thatis the most important focus and
focal point.

Speaker 1 (46:57):
I will say that I do agree with you that you know you
should always try to salvagethe marriage for the kids.
But I do also think that if thetwo parents you know whether
it's emotionally or they'rehaving just a hard time and I

(47:20):
think sometimes we mightdownplay the emotional toll it
has on a person to see thisperson day to day or to be in a
marriage where you just don'tfeel alive so in that instance
try as hard as you can.
But even though Allah subhanahuwa ta'ala frowns upon divorce

(47:44):
and it's probably one of theworst things you could do Allah
frowns upon it it's still openfor you.
It's still an avenue that youcan take, obviously trying to be
as amicable as you can.
I want to put that out there toour viewers that it does not
diminish the person, both coupleif they do decide to go that

(48:06):
route.

Speaker 3 (48:07):
I think it's relationship is hard, yeah, and
I think you want everybody whogets married they don't go into
like I'm going to get divorced,and everybody wants their family
together.
I think even that idea ofwanting to stay together and
having stable relationship andraising kids in that household

(48:28):
until they graduate and go tocollege and get married and that
is the dream for everybody,right, we have to also bring in
life into the situation and Idon't think when anybody even
though, especially when peopleare being married for more than
five years, they don't taketheir relationship very lightly
to come to a place of divorceunless that there is such a very

(48:50):
difficult thing that they areunable to overcome and they
probably try especially womentry way more on trying to stay
in that relationship at least inmy picture, in my experiences
to make sure that, like I wantto do everything in my power to
maintain this relationship andthen when everything out of like

(49:11):
she runs out of everything, allthe things that she planned to
do, that's when the divorceusually happens.
So to say that you know whatit's best for the kids to have a
healthy mindset and healthyaspect of it.
It would be great to have that,but the reality is that life
does not always give us all ofthat, and I think it's okay to
be able to say if you can't doit, if you can't, and that's

(49:35):
also okay.
And nobody, nobody, reallyreally take it lightly to say I
want to get a divorce becausethe the the emotional impact on
both parties it's so devastating.
Right, and nobody wants to gothrough that devastation.
Like divorce in health,psychology, like death and
divorce are the two highestthings that cause a lot of

(49:57):
significant stressors to people,and if it's like one and two,
how would anybody take thatchances to?
do that unless, like you'rereally young and you haven't
matured and you're like youdon't understand.
You got mad because this persondidn't do what you want, but
they said yes, and and I think,talaq, talaq, talaq, it's

(50:17):
divorce, divorce, divorce.
I divorce you.

Speaker 1 (50:18):
I divorce you.
Oh, just like, yeah, they do,they do.

Speaker 3 (50:22):
And I think that is like really we have to address
that.
Allah talked about it, Allahhas it for us, at least as a
Muslim, and if Allah has made itokay for us to do it and he
talked about it extensively thewhole procedure of how to go
through divorce.
We don't need to kind of putzulm on one another if we don't

(50:44):
have to.
But the zulm is zulm, right.
Zulm is like oppression, Right?

Speaker 1 (50:49):
Yeah, we don't have to oppress each other if we
don't have to and it's usuallylike I want to say to the
community if these two peoplehave agreed to do this, then
it's none of our business,that's true.
It's none of our business tohave comments to make them feel
bad about it, to give ourunwanted opinions.
We need to give people graceand, I think, moving on to like

(51:14):
after divorce and beyond talkingabout children, of divorce and
how divorce impacts children.

Speaker 2 (51:26):
We want to also look out for how, if once we are
divorced, how these things mighthave behavioral impacts on our
children and how to spot thatand if they need help.
You know children tend to haveanger outbursts and then also
mental health, like you know,signs of depression, signs of
anxiety, right, and then alsomental health, like you know, a

(51:47):
science of depression, scienceof anxiety, even health issues.
You know children of divorcedparents are more likely to have
increased risk of asthma andinjury rates, right, and then
also separating, separation,anxiety, lack of empathy
sometimes, and then alsoobviously, have be able to get
in more, more physicaleducations in schools and their

(52:07):
academic performance might besuffering.
All of these are signs,regardless of how hard you're
trying to not have the divorcehave an impact and I'm saying
this in a very weird way butgrammatically incorrect way but
have an impact on your children.
If you are noticing thesethings, you know they're not
acting out.
These are.
They're grieving.

(52:27):
They're grieving what they hadand these are symptoms that they
might need a little bit moresupport and help, maybe even
more than you could possiblyoffer.
So I just want to make surethat we are pointing these
things out, you know, to parentsthat are currently going
through divorce and you knowthat needs to make sure that

(52:48):
they are paying attention tothese symptoms in their children
.

Speaker 3 (52:51):
And then some children are also very internal
experiencing this.
They really shut down and soyou get to.
You see both what Bonnie wassaying.
And there are kids who areinternalized experiences and
they don't really kind of talkabout it until later in life,
until later.

(53:11):
So both happens.

Speaker 2 (53:13):
Yeah, and one thing I also want to make sure that
that I kind of have been readingon is that normally, kid
children of divorced parentstend to have, tend to look at
the marriage or the concept ofmarriage through the lenses of
their parents.
So, making sure that you havethis conversation with your kids
that this just didn't work outbecause mommy and daddy, you

(53:36):
know, couldn't make it work ormommy and daddy weren't meant to
be together, mommy and dad, youknow, whatever the case is,
it's not a conclusive decisionon marriage.
All marriage fail, right.
The case is it's not aconclusive decision on marriage.
All marriage fail, right.
Because sometimes and mosttimes, children tend to take
that as the conclusion of whatmarriage will end up being and
making them understand that, hey, you know, learn from my

(53:58):
mistakes.
Maybe I didn't communicate withyour dad or your mom properly,
maybe we, you know, we took eachother for granted or whatever.
And if you don't do themistakes that we did, the
chances of you and learning fromus, the chances of you having a
successful if that is what youwant to do, the successful
marriage is completely possibleand it's not like you're doomed.
Have you guys seen?

(54:18):
Love is Blind Clay.
He's, like my dad cheated.
Therefore, I am going to cheat.
What the heck the?
It doesn't work like that youknow so um yeah, just

Speaker 1 (54:28):
making sure you yeah anyway, I only do the heavy one.
Yeah, like literally there'sthis guy.

Speaker 2 (54:33):
He was convinced that he was gonna possibly sometime
cheat.
Yeah, because his dad cheatedand his parents got divorced.

Speaker 3 (54:40):
Yeah, and so so this is also for the couples who are
you know that divorce affectthem too.
It's like the grieving processof divorce.
Is that something that I don'tthink?
Us as a Muslim community, wetalk about it often Like
grieving meaning, like sothere's we talked about grief on
other episodes here where andthat aspect of grief also

(55:02):
affected ending of this type ofrelationship.
Right, it's like the sadness oflike you dreamed of being with
this person for the rest of yourlife and now you realize that
it didn't work out, and grievingthat, grieving the life that
you planned, the dream that youwanted to build with this person
, giving yourself time to healthrough the experiences of what

(55:24):
happened in this relationship sothat way that you'd be able to
be more prepared in the nextrelationship.
Right, that's part of the griefis like, okay, what do I learn
about myself?
What are something that itdidn't work out?
How did I handle some things inthis relationship that I wanted
to do better in the nextrelationship?
Yeah, and I don't think we talkabout like taking the time to
go inward and giving yourselfmoments, even though I always

(55:48):
recommend having to go throughtherapy and therapy is not just
mental health therapy it's likewhen things doesn't work out for
your life, and if you're ableto and if you have the capacity
for it and I think that'ssomething that I really want
people to like take it away outof this conversation is like I
need to process a lot of thingsthat happen and I'm still also
blaming myself that my kids werenever going to have both

(56:11):
parents household or I was nevergoing to be like that couple
who goes to event together,because now I'm not part of the
couple's thing anymore, becausethat relationship ended with the
divorce as well.
And also the dream of likee-dressing right, like I was not
going to have e-picturesbecause now we're no longer
married and so it's like goingthrough those rollercoaster

(56:34):
experiences with supportedsystem.

Speaker 1 (56:36):
I believe that is the best way to kind of come out of
it and it's okay to getremarried and if you really feel
like that's something that youwant to do for yourself and I
would say the biggest supportthat you can do for yourself
going through this is justholding on to the rope of a lot
as well, you know, doing thatspiritual healing and just
making sure that that rope istight Because you know it will

(57:02):
be a roller coaster of emotionsand you need an anchor to hold
you down so that your foundationis unshakable yeah, and I think
when we're talking aboutgrieving grieving the
relationship, grieving the hopesand dreams that you had for the
relationship, we're also we canalso talk about the, the
tangible things that you aregoing to be losing, right?

Speaker 2 (57:20):
um, you can grieve the family that you had, you
know, merged together his family, her family you might be really
involved in, the parents livesover here or the sister, and no
matter how much you want it tobe, it's not going to be the
same.
No, right.
So you can grieve.
There's so many relationshipsthat you grieve when that
happens right, yeah uh sorry, goahead.

(57:43):
Okay yeah, when you are inthose.

Speaker 3 (57:47):
So many relationships that you're going to grieve
when that ends.
Yeah, yeah, like families andhis family, your family, your
friends, your cousins, all ofthis combined, extended
relationship that you have builtin this relationship.
Yes, that is so true.
Nobody talks about that,because that itself I mean I can
relate to that because that'sprobably.
Nobody talks about that becausethat itself I mean I can relate
to that because that's probably.
I've experienced that even you,like you and the friends like

(58:13):
friends yeah you lose thatperson and you would never be
the same it's like.
And then you would think, likewait, was our relationship only
because of you two together, oror is it like more so because
you two ended?
That means that I'm also whyare you divorcing me?

Speaker 1 (58:28):
You divorce her or?

Speaker 3 (58:29):
him, whatever.
So that one is really big andnobody talks about it.
Because you invest emotionallyto the relationship of these
people, yeah, and alsodefinitely.

Speaker 2 (58:41):
And I also want to add that in our community, right
the way we walk in community,you also grieve the peace that
you have when you're walking inthe community without anybody
like oh.

Speaker 3 (59:00):
Yeah, that goes to my , and so another part is that I
think part of today even thoughwe have a little bit of time
left is the remarrying afterdivorce conversation.
I feel like do you guys want totalk about that or do we kind
of like put it for later?

Speaker 1 (59:18):
I mean.
What I will say on that is thatit's not the end of the world.
You know, allah already wroteyour qadr long ago.
So, regardless of where you arein life, just know that
everything you are where you'remeant to be and tomorrow will be
a better day.

Speaker 2 (59:37):
And I know that sounds so cliche, but I'm just
going to say if you have youngerchildren, hold out as much as
you can For both or just thewife.

Speaker 3 (59:47):
No both.

Speaker 2 (59:49):
I think if you have younger children, before
introducing another person intotheir life, hold out as much as
you can.
I think we've also talked aboutthis in other spaces the
chances of a children gettingSA'd.

Speaker 1 (01:00:03):
Yeah, that's my biggest scoliosis.
Let's not, let's not get intothat whole.
Yeah, that's, I'm just sayingit's a reality.
Yeah, that's the realityessayed, abused all of them
increases.

Speaker 2 (01:00:13):
Mental health issues increase when children are
introduced and in two steps andand there are obviously outliers
and that are great step.
Parents stem children umrelationships.
But when you are thinking ofthat, just make sure you are
really, really considering yourkids and investigating the
person that is being introducedinto their family.

Speaker 1 (01:00:34):
Absolutely.
Do you guys know that back home?
Just as a tidbit is that likewhen like a spouse dies or like
they kind of Don't say it.

Speaker 2 (01:00:42):
No, what do you mean?
Go ahead, I just had a thought.

Speaker 1 (01:00:47):
No, like they don't say it.
No, what do you mean?
Go ahead, I.
I just had a thought.
No, like, so it's kind ofopposite really.
Like for these kids to grow up,they kind of bring in somebody
that's already inside the family, like like the brother, yeah,
like the brother, or something.
Have you guys heard that?

Speaker 2 (01:00:58):
yeah, no, okay, we'll end it there no, it's, but can
we please do the communitybecause you talked about it and
I touched on it like thedismantling, divorce and the
community responsibility on that, or like just because I think
that is the point of this wholeconversation.
It's like making sure, yes, thecommunity does mind their own

(01:01:18):
business, but sometimes don'tmind your business in the sense
that if you are coming in withsupport with you know shoulders,
because all of a sudden theseparents that again we're talking
about divorced people that havechildren, these parents are now
single parents, right?
Single dad, single mom.
If you can be of resource, ifyou can be of support, if you
can be a babysitter, if you canbe you know all of these things

(01:01:40):
please be of support and youknow a shoulder to cry on a
shoulder to lean on um for ourcommunity members and stop
judging these people because youdon't know what allah has
written for you and for yourmarriage.
Yeah, um, I know I'm speaking alot faster, but you guys can.

Speaker 3 (01:01:55):
You guys can add to that, I think you're absolutely.
You're absolutely right.
I think, even community wise,that we need to stop talking
about people's you.
You know experiences and kindof like.
Everybody says this, but at thesame time sometimes there's
level of like intellectually,like understanding this behavior
is negatively going to affectus.
It's the idea of like youreally don't know what happened

(01:02:17):
to those people.

Speaker 1 (01:02:18):
And you don't need to know Exactly.
You know what I mean.
You don't need to know.

Speaker 3 (01:02:22):
But I feel like sometimes people who and just in
generally want to gossip islike because they want to
elevate their self, yeah, seeingsomebody else suffer and I feel
like imagine you're not thatfar away.

Speaker 1 (01:02:35):
Yeah, right, and it's not innocent, like, even like
it's Nameema, right, like we sayone little thing here and are
you really willing to stand infront of allah on the day of
judgment and and be questionedthat you said x, y and z about
somebody's relationship or youknow whatever you thought

(01:02:56):
happened, like that's absolutelyinsane yeah, I, I even don't
even ask people that don't Idon't ask.

Speaker 3 (01:03:02):
If you want to share and you want a space to talk
about it, I can make space foryou 100%.
Yeah, I don't even want to likeintrude on that, because the
thing is that relationship is soprotected and so sensitive and
that we forget that we don'tprotect it in that way, except
we know how to demolish it.
Yeah, by talking about people'sbeing how different are you?

Speaker 1 (01:03:23):
then she comes straight on.
Then you know, I think just acaveat to that, the hobby is
that how to demolish it bytalking about people's being.

Speaker 2 (01:03:27):
And how different are you than Shifam Shaitan, than
us?
You know what I mean, I think.
Just a caveat to that is thatyes, not asking and not being,
like you know, investigatory isimportant but I think making
sure you allow that space andbeing like hey, I understand,
this is a very sensitive issuefor you if you feel like you
need to talk to somebody aboutit, I'm here, but I'm not going
to ask you about it or I'm notgoing to, you know, invade your
privacy, then letting thatperson know that if they want to

(01:03:48):
talk and if they're in thatspace to come to you.
Last thing I want to say isthat please don't tabloidize
people that are divorced,because there is that thing oh
my God, so-and-so and so-and-sois dating so-and-so, that has
never been married.
Does he know that she'sdivorced, right?
yeah, that's horrible yeah, youknow, and the idea that, like,
um, I don't know, like, justbecause it didn't work out with

(01:04:09):
someone else, it's not gonnawork out with someone else, it's
not true you know, and it tendsto affect the woman more than
yes it is the man.

Speaker 3 (01:04:16):
Yeah, definitely, I feel like we have a lot.

Speaker 2 (01:04:18):
We need a part two.
We have a lot of work to do.
We do need that.

Speaker 3 (01:04:21):
We need that was really fast, but we got the
points in yes and so we justwant to take it away by saying
that please be kind andunderstand that this is a
challenging experience for manypeople and emphasize the
important support system,because I think we do better
when we are together and bysupporting one another.
I just want to encourage ourlisteners to just listen to this

(01:04:45):
episode with empathy and openmind and I hope that you get
what you needed out of thisconversation.
Hopefully it's the beginningand the more.
Thank you so much for listeningand this is a difficult
conversation and, as always,comment and share with us your
opinions.

Speaker 1 (01:05:03):
We always love to hear stories.
Absolutely All right.
This has been love to hearstories.
Absolutely All right.
This has been Waalik Salam.
Oh, absolutely.
Join the conversation in thecomment section or on our
Instagram page to share with uswhat you think.
We do not have all the answersand our biggest goal is to kick
off and get the conversationgoing.

(01:05:23):
May Allah accept our effortsand use us as catalysts for
change.