February 24, 2025 • 57 mins
Losing parents at a young age profoundly impacts a child's psychological and emotional landscape. Bonni shares her personal journey as an orphan, exploring the feelings of isolation, societal perceptions, and the need for community support while emphasizing the importance of constructive conversations about loss.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 2 (00:03):
As-salamu alaykum, welcome to Difficult
Conversations where we tackletaboo topics in a safe space,
through empowerment andeducation episode we're going to
(00:26):
be talking about parent and youknow and relationship with our
children and the loss of aparent and what that looks like
as an you know, being an orphan,and what that looks like in the
community, as well as thepsychological impact on children
.
So before we start, we justwant to kind of give a shout out
to our co-host, who's notfeeling well today and she's not
here.
Salam to you, akshira, and Ihope you feel better and we
(00:49):
can't wait to see you in ournext episode.
And so, yeah, me and Bonnietoday are going to be discussing
Mainly.
It's going to be Bonnieanswering some questions about
her own experiences as an orphanand what her experience was
like, and I will be kind ofdiving into getting to know her
from that perspective andallowing the space for us to
(01:12):
tell us her the way that shewalked through these experiences
for herself, and I will kind ofbe engaging on that and
supporting Bonnie in this spaceas well.
Please listen to it, and thistopic is most likely is going to
be very heavy, very, I think,is emotionally needed, and I
(01:32):
hope, as a listener, you aregiving yourself space and
support as you listen to thisepisode and hopefully you'll
learn something that isimportantly need to be discussed
in the conversation that wewill be having here and I hope
you continue to have it withyour loved ones and where we can
kind of you know talk about thethings that we don't usually
talk about it and trying to kindof have that understanding.
(01:57):
So I'm going to go ahead anddive in and ask Bonnie typical,
what was it like for her first?
And then we'll talk about fromIslamic perspective and other
aspect of it.
So so, bonnie, tell us like,what was it like for you, um?
I know in our previous episodewe talked about grief and you
talked about your parents, um,losing both of your parents
(02:18):
within the six months period andhow that affected you.
What was it afterward like lifefor you, the?
You know, just kind of, give usa little bit of summary and
that experiences for you, um?
Speaker 3 (02:30):
for me it was.
It was very interesting,because everything around you
changes when you lose yourparents, when you lose those
people that are supposed to beyour support system, your
(02:51):
providers, literally, becausefor me they passed away when I
was age all and then also youlose contact with um.
This thing that is fundamentaland most people I feel like take
for granted, which isunconditional love.
(03:13):
There is no unconditional loveoutside of like being a parent
or your parents, like yourrelationship with your parents.
Every other relationship inyour life is very conditional,
you know, including yoursiblings, so, and we don't
really know how much that meansto us until we lose it, until
(03:35):
it's not there anymore.
For me, uh, I I guess I have tokind of a little backtrack to
how I was when they were alive,right, um, I grew up in a
community where I was one of thewell-off families.
(03:56):
I had friends that um enjoyedbeing friends with me, you know,
for one reason or another, andum, I also felt like being well
off, like I and my parents being, you know, doting parents,
strict, yet doting parents.
(04:17):
Um, I never really knew umpeople's like.
I was always like appreciatedin the spaces that I entered.
I was appreciated.
In the spaces that I entered, Iwas welcomed.
In the spaces that I entered, Inever felt like I.
I was one of those people thatwas in a space that they weren't
wanted, or they made peopleuncomfortable.
(04:37):
And then I realized, very soonafter people, when I didn't have
my parents anymore, um,people's interaction with me
changed.
Either they were, uh, lookingat me through the eyes of pity,
um, or they were looking at methrough, um, the lens of
(05:01):
discomfort, because, like mypresence was making them
uncomfortable, or they werelooking at me from a space of
like vulnerability, like theycould see how vulnerable I was,
and like they would say thingsthat they never used to say
before, or they would treat mein a way that they never would
treat me before.
Um, so and I don't know if thatis just my, my sensitivity to
(05:26):
people's around me, and thatthat change, and maybe they,
it's their discomfort that mademe feel uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
You know, I have to give that um, I mean, you did
lose your parents at the youngage and you might be, at that
moment, hyper aware of people'sinteraction towards you compared
to what you didn't.
Maybe you didn't have an idea.
These people, their interactionwas not as important before it
wasn't as important before I.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
You know, like I remember this specific time, you
know when again, like when mymom had just passed away and I
really didn't have that much.
It was like a weekend, I think.
I didn't have anything to do.
(06:14):
I was at home watching TV.
And then I got bored.
So I went to a neighbor's houseand normally I would be like,
oh, Sarah's here, like Armani'shere, like Armani's here, you
know like, hi, how are you,how's it going?
And then it felt like they'relike hi, how are you?
Come on in.
And then they sat and they kindof were wondering why I was
(06:39):
Like it felt like they werewondering why I was there, even
though I was there for companyBecause, like I just there was
not anyone at home at the moment.
Yeah, um, and I mean kids, myage also, you know, with with
youth and with their also theywere young.
But at the same time, with thatcomes a level of brutality
(06:59):
because, um, they would saythings that, um, were a little
bit harsh to hear.
You know, like that was likeone of I feel like not that much
, but I remember specificincidents where specific girls
(07:22):
would use like, oh, you know,you were all that, but you're
not anymore, really.
You know, yeah, like or um, what.
What are you going to do?
You get into rent to your own.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Really, yeah, so like part of the things that I
really wanted to know was partof the psychological impact and
I think when you share that, Ican sense the impact that it had
on you and especially at theyoung brain, a young part of you
.
Yeah, that is so vulnerable offeeling accepted.
And here is just a treatmentthat you're getting from your
(08:00):
peers who are like your age kidsthat you used to play with.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I I think there's a level to it.
Like, again, I don't hold anyof it against them because
they're kids and they're usingwhatever um, whatever they can,
you know, right, like I.
So that's fine, um, but I doremember the atmosphere in my
life changing.
(08:24):
I remember like I felt like theworld had stopped for me and
everybody was like just going onabout their day and everybody I
felt like I was wounded, like Iwas a wounded animal and
everybody was just like treatingme like nothing had happened at
the same time.
So it was a very oxymoronicexperience, because at one end,
(08:45):
they were treating me verydifferently than they were
before and another end, they'renot treating me differently in a
way that I want to be treateddifferently, because I needed
help, I needed attention, Ineeded support, I needed there's
these vacancies that I neededfilled, but there were.
There was not anyone thereoutside of my family that was
(09:08):
able to fill that Like you knowwhat I mean Like outside of my
uncles that were able to be, andthey they were not.
They were not um, aware or they, they, I.
I give so much credit to thembecause they were on survival,
they were in survival apparatus.
(09:29):
They, I survived because ofthem.
I was fed, I was, I had cleanclothes, I had, you know, a bed
to sleep in, I went to school.
I never missed school.
Um, they helped me with myhomework, they did what they,
what they could, yes, but thenthe practice there was nobody
there to let.
I can cry too, yeah, you know,and to be honest, I think I
(09:50):
spent a lot of years not notexpressing any grief, like I
think after the first week Ispent a lot of time crying, um,
by myself, but then, you know, I, and then after that, I just um
(10:13):
, I stopped crying and I stopped.
I kind of just shut it and likeput, like you know, kind of put
it in a box, put it and, and Ijust didn't deal with it until I
had to deal with it because itwas showing up in different ways
in my life.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Yeah, you know, I want to explain a little bit of
the psychological impact of thatbecause, even as a
developmental stage, right,you're losing your parents
before the age of 10 years old.
At the same time, thatdramatically changed your brain,
your view of the world, yourview of safety, your view of
protection, your view ofemotional security.
(10:54):
So, like when we talked aboutthe traumatic experiences, we
can't negate that this is one ofthose form of traumatic
experiences that you have faced,where in psychology, we call it
complex trauma and where itcomes as layers.
Right, this is such a verycritical time in your stage of
development and then, all of asudden, you're like losing the
(11:16):
two main protective of yourlifehood, right, and now you are
going through the world fromthat point of view, and now you
(11:46):
are going through thisexperience I, if you, if you
don't mind talking about that alittle bit more oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
So initially I was seeking out people to because,
again, like I said, there was alot of time that I had to spend
by myself.
I was very, very um lonely inthe sense that, um, I really,
because I was hyper aware ofwhat I didn't have.
(12:14):
I was hyper aware of who didwhat before.
Again, I also like to emphasizethat, like my parents were,
parents were very, very strict,but I was spoiled, right, I was
like spoiled in the sense thatthey gave me everything that
they could.
They were there in every event,every, you know, every chance
(12:38):
they had to celebrate me.
They did right, they did right.
So, um, when all of that getsturned off, yeah, and all of a
sudden you are having thesemoments where either you're
there, are people there that aretrying to be there for you, but
(12:58):
um, can't you know in the sameway.
For example, you know some,something simple.
You know, me and my mom, onfriday nights we used to go to
um cafes.
Uh, she used to pick me up.
It was my favorite thing to do,because fridays we had um shit,
(13:19):
I didn't wear a mascara,waterproof mascara, and I knew I
was gonna cry today but you'redoing great, just vanity a
little bit.
So she used to take me to cafesand, because we had half days
and she used to pick me up, weused to go to like this cafe.
(13:40):
We used to get a cake and likejuice, like, and, um, smoothies
not just smoothies and it waslike literally one of my
favorite, like I can't waituntil it was friday because that
was something that we ate everyfriday like clockwork.
And then on the weekends, my dadhe used to work in adizaba and
(14:01):
margato, so we used to go to belike, oh, we're gonna go visit
dad, but then we're really goingthere during lunchtime so he
can take us out to a restaurant.
So, um, we would just onweekends, that's what we did.
So there was like theseregiments that we did, that all
of the sudden, fridays felt likeone of the most dreaded days
(14:22):
for me, because there was a lotof reminders, like there was
this, like you know, and like mybrain was so used to being
excited sometimes that thatinstead of excitement, it was
just pain.
You know, I was like it was somuch pain and um.
And then also there's thisfeeling of everybody seems to
(14:47):
have something I don't Everybodyand the concept of safety right
, like I felt very, veryvulnerable.
I felt like I couldn't get infight.
I never got in fights, but Icouldn't piss anybody off
because I really didn't haveanybody that was going to defend
me, right?
So I felt like I think mypeople pleasing personality
(15:10):
started then because I startedperforming not just performing,
but I started being more.
I used to be very cutthroat,like before the age of 10, I
used to be like you, either likeme or don't, I don't care.
I mean you were being assertive.
You know what I mean and beingdirect and people, people used
to know me as like oh, likeBonnie will tell, now I've kind
(15:32):
of gotten there, yeah, um, we'lltell you exactly.
Like you know, whatever I usedto be that girl, that people, um
, and either I had friends or Ididn't, and I didn't care.
I used to be like at home andmy mom would be like go out,
play with people.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
So I think that's part of it.
Is like what you mentioned, ourprevious episode, where you
said that grief would changeyour personality as a whole
Definitely, and now you, theperson that you used to be, you
no longer relate to, and thisnew version is trying to find a
sense of safety in the world.
And, however that may be, isand which is why I think we tap
into people pleasing, becausepeople pleasing is form of like
(16:09):
hey, see me, know me, like me,yeah, like me.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
Like.
I can be likable.
I can be lovable, Like see if Ijust give you everything that I
have to give then maybe you'lllove me and um about that.
You know, changingpersonalities.
I think, um, when you gothrough these phases of change,
your personality, and just moreand more frequently, because, um
(16:36):
, I feel like first you go tothat space of like withdrawal,
because you're all of a suddenyou're not safe, you're not um,
you're alone.
You are understanding, you'rebeing very hypersensitive to
people's reactions and people'schanges around you right so you
become, you withdraw, and thenfor me I don't know if this
happens to everybody else for mewhat happened was okay, I can't
(16:58):
be in this solace by myselfanymore.
This is too much.
So I started throwing myselfinto people, I started throwing
myself into friendships and Istarted throwing myself into
like I wanted my teacher.
I was like the teacher's pet.
I was having like 10,000friends, even like in.
When I came here I wanted to bethe best at everything, just
(17:19):
because I wanted to be liked, Iwanted to be recognized, I
wanted to be seen, and I thought, like any, if I got like just
enough crumbs of affection andenough crumbs of attention, then
it will fill this vacancy, thisvoid, right.
And then, um, and then Irealized, like it's too much
(17:40):
work, right.
And then that comes also withmaturity, like I'm talking about
, like maybe I did too much work, right.
And then that comes also withmaturity.
Like I'm talking about likemaybe I did that for 10 years,
right.
So like not even 10 years, Iwould say like I probably so.
Like that was 10, maybe untilend of high school, until 18.
So do you?
Speaker 2 (17:55):
think our community has a way or spaces, when you're
talking about these experiencesof kind of searching for your
void in the spaces, do you thinkas a community do we have
spaces, or do we talk about it,or do we even recognize what
does it mean to be an orphan?
And how do we?
How do we like kind of makethem inclusive into the part of
(18:16):
the community or not even makethem feel like a pity, but more
like accepting of them?
Speaker 3 (18:20):
no, I think you make that space for no, I, for my
again, my experience in myexperience, I hated being part
of the community.
I, I hated it because thepeople that knew my like about
my parents story, um, they onlything they did was and they use
that as an excuse.
(18:40):
I succeed, it's because I'myour team.
Yeah, I succeed it's becauseI'm a team.
I succeed it's because I'm ateam.
I fail it's because I'm a team.
And that's also puts like oh,you know she, so I was.
It was very, very clear to methat I can't fail, I can't
(19:01):
misbehave, I can't have ateenager moment because I don't
have my mom to defend herselfhere, because other kids could
could have a teenage moment and,like you know, have a wild
moment or whatever, like aself-expression and um, but and
then their parents were like, oh, I didn't raise her like that,
it's just just going throughsomething.
(19:21):
Like, oh, I didn't raise herlike that, it's just just going
through something you know.
And then, but for me, Icouldn't do that.
I was very clear when I camehere.
I was like there's no way.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
I will rather die than someone say, samia's child
turned out like this, but I soto that there's not a but, but
it's like to that I see as likeso much pressure on the young
teenager who is like trying tofigure out her own world, yeah,
and she's kind of trying tomanage this expectation that
(19:51):
society had pushed out on her tobe that she didn't ask for,
yeah, and instead of her tryingto kind of figure out how she
understand herself, but now shehas to kind of bring that for
everybody has to be accepting ofher, definitely, and I think,
just to go back to that idea oflike the community, I think most
of the time I I said it lasttime too which is our community,
(20:15):
likes to mine for information,for you know, either their
gossip circles or just to youknow, I don't know what the
purpose is, but they like tomine information.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
So let me tell you an incident, right?
So like I would go to a weddingand they would Hi, how are you?
I'm good, how are you?
Maybe they don't know my momand they will say, oh, this is
Naomi's, um, naomi's, uh, niece.
You know her mom.
She died back home and all ofthe sudden, the table of the
(20:50):
wedding, people that don't knoweven my name, know my story, the
most vulnerable parts of methey are exposed to, and I don't
have without me asking for itso, and, or I could go to a
wedding, the same thing.
I'm like what.
That just makes me feel rich.
I wanted me.
(21:11):
I felt like I needed to retreatmore, you know, and um again, I
feel like this is not a my onlystory when it comes to this, I
know I keep saying this is mystory, my experience.
I've seen a lot of people gothrough this where, right, but
we're talking about you, right?
Speaker 2 (21:29):
now, so your story can be the highlight.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
Yeah, and I say that I make sure, like I say that out
loud because I don't want it tobe like just it's the, these
specific people.
I've seen a lot of people thataddress.
Even just a couple of years ago, you know, I noticed this
family that lost their parents,basically, and they lost their
(21:54):
dad, and then the mom passedaway afterwards and the
conversation is just comes fromlike useless, pity, like okay,
you're pitying them, great, nowwhat?
What are you gonna do?
Are you?
Are you?
Are you there?
Are you trying to support oh,you were talking about, this
child is getting getting infights in school instead of
(22:14):
sitting around talking about itin your coffee circles or your
gym circles.
What are you trying to do tohelp this child?
You know, if we are as acommunity, you're you feel like
it's important enough to bringto your table, to bring this
issue to your table.
Are you talking about it toadvance anything or are you just
talking about it to justbackbite that child?
(22:36):
You know what?
Speaker 2 (22:36):
I mean yeah.
So then I'm hearing a couple ofthings, right, so there is the
lack of understanding of whatdoes it mean to take care of
orphans in our community, andthen there's a lack of also
understanding what that meansand not trying to look for
information to just for the sakeof gossiping and kind of
feeling pity for kids.
And then I'm also hearing, likewhat do we?
(22:58):
What is Islamically been saidabout this conversation itself?
Right, I think in islam, orphanprophet muhammad talks about
salallahu alayhi wa sallam, likewhat does it mean to be an
orphan?
He's also an orphan himself, sohe praised that, he praised us
talking to taking care of orphan, like a person who take care of
orphan.
They're like this with me injannah.
(23:19):
He talks about it, just likebeing able to be there.
And I feel like there's a lotof understanding, ignorance that
comes within our communitywhere it comes to talking about
orphan, even caring for orphan,not from a sense of feeling pity
or having a conversation topicto have, but understanding that
(23:39):
they're also a person whoexperiences the most traumatic
thing.
And naming that, I think yeah,and naming that, I think that's
something that I think we'remissing do you feel that I feel
like they don't do?
Speaker 3 (23:49):
yeah, definitely, I mean, there's no alhamdulillah
again.
Like I said, I am, I, I am an,uh, best case scenario, right,
like there's so many people thatthey, I had aunts that put me
in their life, that included mein their decisions, that made me
, you know, that I could havejust been back home, yeah Right,
like that could have been mystory.
(24:10):
Allahu alam, what would havehappened then?
But you know, and they put mein their story, they put me in
their life, they groomed me inthe way that I feel like they
knew how to the best way theyknew how to, and they, they knew
how to the best way, they knewhow to, um, and they protected
me in that such a manner, and Ithink also it was like a
bittersweet way.
They were also yetims, yeah,you know, and therefore, and
(24:34):
they, my aunts, came here, justthe two of them, and they didn't
have any other family, soeverybody also did the same
thing to them that they did tome, so they kind of prepared me
for what to expect.
Right.
So, level of isolation, Againdifferent, but because they lost
their parents.
They're a lot more older yeah,when they were older.
(24:55):
But the level of interactionand what kind of interaction I
was going to get from thecommunity, they prepared me for
those things.
And what kind of interaction Iwas going to get from the
community, they prepared me forthose things.
So I felt like which is alsowhy I came in with like 11 years
old and 12 years old, I knewimmediately, like you cannot,
(25:18):
like you can either stay as faraway from the community as you
can and therefore, like theycan't they don't know you enough
to make any judgments of you or, if you are in the community,
just make sure that you are aspristine as you can possibly be,
and that is such like you fail.
So many times Because, no,there's no way.
As a teenager, you cannot.
(25:39):
You know what.
I mean, I wouldn't call that afailure.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
I call that teenager experiencing her world.
Yeah, but I think, yeah, forthem it's like the standard that
they put you on the pedestal,that they created for you to not
me.
The idea, the idea, exactly,but that's what I'm saying.
Like you, they expecting thatfrom you, right, so eventually
they can say, oh, she's doingthat because she doesn't have a
parent.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Yeah, right, yeah, and I think even that, and if
you fail, they're gonna say shefailed because she doesn't have
a parent exactly.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
but that's what I'm saying, like the psychological
abuse in that statement, theemotional abuse that is that
statement, yeah, that it has ona child.
That's what I'm seeing you as achild who's experiencing that
and I can't comprehend the, thepain that feels like, yeah,
because you're constantlywalking in the world with the
pressure of feeling perfect,yeah, and making sure that you
(26:27):
can be perfect Right.
The pressure trying to beperfect, but even the way
they're not feeling perfect.
Speaker 3 (26:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And that is how do I?
Which school are you teachingme to be that, and what pressure
should I need to navigatethrough to get better at it?
And there's no room forforgiveness, there's no room of
understanding, and mercy, too,and there's lack of compassion
in this state.
That's what I'm trying to say,and so and the other question
that I have for you is like whatare some of the things that are
(27:00):
off the grid that they said toyou in this experience?
Is that you're like today, oh,my god, I can't believe these
people have mentally commonsense to say something like this
.
Yeah, I mean gosh, um they.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
I've had a lady like ask me to like almost um, walk
her through the days like whathappened and you know so how did
, and I was like I don't knowyou and you're literally asking
me to walk down the like memorylane to one of the most painful
moments of my life.
(27:35):
Yeah, and like it's nothing.
Or I've had, like I said, youknow, like when it came to
little kids, like they used itas weapons against me.
I've had a so-called friend andI've told you this story where
this person described me asdamaged goods, like oh, you know
(27:55):
, she, she's, she's cute, butshe's damaged goods, she's,
she's messed up in the headbecause her parents passed away.
Uh, I've had, so I mean, like,I've had people try to, um, I've
had people try to like oh, youknow, you, like, ask, yeah, like
(28:19):
, for me it's more so so manythings like.
Again, most of most of it comesfrom, I think, like kids my age
or that are very blunt and theysay things that are like oh, I
had actually friends in collegethat said you and that's also
another thing that I like totalk about in this conversation
(28:40):
is sometimes we because we're'reso, sometimes we're hyper aware
and hyper mature in certainthings and in certain spaces,
and that maturity happensbecause of the trauma response
and you said I can't.
I want to highlight it is a,it's a survival apparatus right
and then in certain spaces weare, we lack a.
(29:03):
I lacked a certain level ofmaturity because I felt like, if
I again that need forconnection, right, I felt like
if I, if I just told you why Iwas the way I was, maybe you'll
understand my tics, right.
You'll understand my tics right, you'll understand my triggers.
(29:25):
So I after like, and and thisis why I say like, please be
careful who you disclose, whatyou disclose to, yeah, when you
are in that space and if you aresomeone that is this things are
is being disclosed to you,please do it like, carry it with
mercy and and and compassion,because for me, um, I had these
(29:46):
friends that basically told meyou're, you're, you're doing it
like, you're telling us this toget like sympathy points, or
this was literally calledsympathy points or like um, just
because you have a sad story,it doesn't mean that you're,
you're um, like I don't rememberexactly the words.
(30:06):
It was like, just because youhave a sad story and just
because you have um, likebasically, whatever, uh, it
doesn't make you um any less orany more.
Like, I don't want to sayresponsible, but like, does it
make you better?
It doesn't make not better, butlike it doesn't mean that you
(30:29):
get any more slack, like itdoesn't mean like you should get
any more slack, and I think thecontext was like.
So it was like I was basicallytrying to explain.
Hey, you know, like I like this, things maybe set me off a
little bit more, I'm a littlebit more sensitive and withdrawn
and during this time, or youknow, whatever, whatever you're
(30:52):
basically communicating youremotions.
Yes, yes, and I, and they werebasically like you're just, that
happened a long time ago, likejust because, because you, you
know, whatever, like maybe Ithink, I think actually I
remember now I was kind of abitch for a week, okay, and that
(31:12):
week happened to be the weekthat I was just very, very
missing.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
My mom and I had a lot of things going on and I, um
, so you're basically having areaction from feeling sad, yeah,
and that reaction turns into bea behavior that other people
were not.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
So I apologized and I said you know, I'm so sorry.
Um, I just want to.
I'm not saying that this is anexcuse or anything, but I just
want to let you know, like Ireally was, this was happening
and this thing happened, andthen this triggered me and this
is why I was feeling this way,and then you guys kind of just
got the, the residue of whateverelse the shortcoming of it and
(31:54):
that my withdrawal wasn't, ithad nothing to do with you,
wasn't just me?
and so on and so forth.
Right, and then they were likeyeah, but right, yeah, but just
because you have this sad storyand just because and it wasn't
like I had multiple of these, Ithink this was the first time
Just because you have a sadstory and just because you don't
(32:16):
have parents, it doesn't meanthat your problems are any more
bigger than ours, or that givesyou the latitude to be, to act
any way that you want.
And I was like wait pause.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
How did you?
Speaker 3 (32:27):
handle that first.
So I I kind of went into liketrying to explain.
I was like, where is thiscoming from?
Because I I this is literallythe first time if, like one, I'm
telling you the story.
This is the first time I'mtelling you why it's happening.
Secondly, this is the firsttime I've acted out of character
(32:48):
, right, which is why I felt theneed to address it.
So where is it coming from?
Yeah, so I I kind of gotdefensive at first and then I
went into that retreat and likeI want to be like shut down
again.
So I kind of was just like youknow what I'm so sorry like.
And then later on it also cameback.
There was a lot of issues inthat friendship to begin with.
(33:11):
But, um, yeah, yeah and and I,we didn't end up by being
friends past, like I wouldn'tsay like freshman, sophomore
year of um, sophomore year ofcollege, but I remember having
that conversation and being likewow, like if I do, I'm doomed.
If I do doomed if I don't,because if I tell people, people
(33:32):
might think that, um, I'mtelling them for sympathy
purposes and if I don't tellpeople and I am having these
emotions like maybe, like Imight be withdrawn and maybe I
don't want to communicate, maybewhatever these things, then
they won't understand andtherefore they're going to like
not like me because of thesethings.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
Yeah, so I think, in a sense, that you are being able
to be understanding of thepeople that's in your life and
being able to kind of preparethem for the times that you may
feel overwhelmed and difficultynavigating this grief.
Yeah, and then so to that, thata lot of people don't have the
emotional capacity to create asafe space for you yeah, so they
kind of weaponize what you'resaying in a negative way.
(34:13):
Yeah.
So I think that is reallyfrustrating itself and how that
happens, which is difficultitself to know, and I now I've
kind of go ahead.
Speaker 3 (34:25):
No, I was just going to say because you remember how
I said, your personality changes, yeah, a lot more than normally
other people.
Yeah, so you know how.
I add, I talked about how, inat first you retreat and then I
threw my my, threw myself in andwanting to be liked and all of
these things, and then whathappens afterwards is that we
get really good at disconnection.
Yeah, I am.
I used, I'm so good at likecutting people off because now
(34:49):
you're shutting down, now I'mshutting down, right, so I'm
cutting people off and I canliterally.
People are still like shockedwhen I say, like, because I have
like a tolerance level that'shigher than other people, but
then if somebody's kind of likeyou know you've been vulnerable
and you're coming to them andthen somebody says something
like that to you.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
I think you're doing the emotional response
appropriately, the way you knowhow, by retrieving and shutting
down.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
Yeah, but sometimes it's not even appropriate.
And I like to say this becauseI like to give people a
disclaimer, just so that, like Ifeel like because I've had a
lot of time to work on this with, with my therapist, and we talk
about a lot about how sometimesit's very easy for me to just
do a guillotine and cut severedrelationships.
(35:35):
Yeah, because for me, like Isaid, I've lost, I know what
loss is, so it's like whateverthis is Right?
Speaker 2 (35:42):
Yeah, it's just like.
Yeah, it's a protective.
This is mechanism, right?
Yeah, it's just like.
Yeah, it's a protectivemechanism for you to feel safe
to feel safe.
Speaker 3 (35:47):
If you make me feel unsafe, you're gone and you
won't even realize how fast yougot gone and you are not worse
than me being an orphan.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Yes, right I already been there exactly what is the
yeah, yeah, if you're gone outof my life, I think that's fair,
but I do want to kind of switchthe gear now that you are a
parent and I wonder what thatconversation for you as well.
I'm shifting a gear, so I wantyour brain to be kind of meet me
a little bit there.
It's like what, what ispractically you and your husband
(36:17):
kind of talk about?
This experience is kind of likewhat does it mean for us and
how do we kind of create ourjust talk about this
conversation a little bit more,yeah, and so we can kind of talk
about what can parents who isin your shoes like yourself
would do for their kids inhaving this conversation,
without feeling like, oh, thisis far away, we shouldn't be
(36:38):
worrying about this versus youknow, this is a practical life.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
Yeah, Can I go just a couple of steps back before
parents to relationships?
So I feel like I'm speaking asan orphan to orphans, right, and
maybe someone that is loving anorphan and in a relationship
with an orphan.
I feel like one thing thatorphans we should know is that
(37:02):
before we get into relationshipswe have to do really thorough
introspection and reallythorough work with therapists,
with, you know, going to andfinding anchors elsewhere,
Because most of us, you know, welost our two big anchors and
therefore we're searching theworld for some other connection
(37:23):
Anchor is such a therapylanguage I just want to name
that Anchor is therapy.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
There's an actual modality called anchor therapy
and that I'm currently gettingtrained myself.
But like every time you talkabout anchor, I'm like that's
therapy language.
Good on you therapist Good onyou, therapist, but continue.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
So I feel like if we don't do the introspection, if
we don't do the internal workand heal parts of ourselves that
probably will never reallytruly heal all the way, but find
a way to medicate in thehealthiest way to help to
understand hey, these thingsthat I am doing, that I really
don't like about myself, aresymptoms of this.
(38:07):
So this is how I can mitigatethat right and being able to do
that before we get into anyserious relationships, because
if we don't do that, we will endup being in spaces that are
super vulnerable to abuse, todomestic violence, because we
like, like I said, the ideawe're hoping that person, that
person to fill that space, we'rehoping that this person is our
(38:30):
person, and we're so scared oflosing people that sometimes we
hold on to things that areliterally setting us on fire.
Yeah, and so I say make surethat you do the work before you
entertain.
You understand yourself, youunderstand yourself before you
entertain a serious relationshipand while you are, and then
(38:52):
also being a very directcommunicator with your
significant other, to be like,hey, this is how I show up, this
is who I am.
These are the things that Iexperienced and this is the
symptoms that I have because ofthese things.
Right, like for me, me and myhusband had to have that
conversation a long time agobefore we had kids and, like I
(39:15):
said, my mom passed away givingbirth right when I got pregnant
with my son actually all threeof my children got pregnant with
my son actually all three of mychildren.
I go into this sphere ofparanoia.
My son was completely different, my oldest.
I literally thought I was goingto die, so I was making videos
for my son just in case if Ipass away, just so that he could
see.
You know, like these likestories and like I was literally
(39:39):
talking to him, where thevideos that he could almost like
instead of letters.
I was doing videos for everyyear of his birthday.
I was communicating how much Ilove him and all of these things
in this video is just preppingto that and if I'm dead, you
know and um, so I make againhaving this communication, so
(40:00):
your husband and your or yourwife knows why, how you're going
to show up in the marriage.
It's again you have to bepartially, partially.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
Like you said, having those conversations are
important because it's part, youknow, and, and I think it's
like sometimes we're looking forpeople in our life to co
-parent our inner child, and Ithink our husband do that, our
friends do that and we try to dothat, and when you have kids,
you try to parent your kid andthen trying to parent yourself
in the process, because thereare some memories that will be
(40:30):
triggered because you didn't getthat, and so it's like how,
collectively, when youunderstand your emotion, you
work through those things,you're a lot more in tune, how
you show up in different spacesas this vulnerable being that
you are, because your wound isactually being opened every
single time by the specific kindof triggers, and so I do think
(40:53):
that by you kind of talking toyour husband prior to that, it's
also kind of opened the gate tohaving the conversation, which
is the question that I asked herin the air.
Speaker 3 (41:02):
So that's yeah, so you have the we had.
So when I got pregnant, we hadto have this conversation and he
didn't like.
He thought I was like what?
And I was like, no, we have tohave a conversation about who's
taking care of our kids.
We have to have a conversationabout where we're.
(41:22):
Who do we trust?
Like, what are we giving to our?
Like life insurance?
Right, like, making sure that,who is um going to be in charge
of their trust?
Right, having a trust, becausethere's a big difference between
having a will and having atrust.
Does our, do our communitiesknow that?
You know, just because youwrite something and say and put
it on your, on your um, on yoursafety box, it doesn't
(41:45):
necessarily mean that's how it'sgoing to happen after you pass
away.
Yeah, because the courts willget involved, right, and but you
, if you have a trust, it's acompletely different situation
having a trust versus having awill.
Making sure that, okay, talkingto that third party you plan to
leave your kids with, right,making sure that that person is
one, willing.
(42:06):
Two, is someone that is capable, emotionally capable, you know,
is.
Are they similar to the way youknow you would raise them?
Right?
Do they love them right, willthey love them?
Because, to be honest, justbecause they are your sister,
just because they are yourbrother, it doesn't mean that
they're going to be fair andjust and love them the way you
(42:28):
would think they would.
And you also have to understandthe way people treat your kids
while you're here is completelydifferent than the way they will
treat your kids when you're notthere, no more.
So you have to make sure thatthese people that you're living,
leaving your kids with, are.
So we had that conversationright and then going really deep
(42:51):
into talking to these people,making sure that they're ready.
One thing I really again I Ilike to take stuff from every
different culture I interactwith is that I these have is the
idea of, um, godfather andgodmothers right, and that is
basically a contract or like anunderstanding that if something
(43:13):
happens to me, you're gonna betaking care of my kids yeah, I
don't, I haven't seen a lot ofthat in our community.
And then also as parents, okay,if I die and you're here, how
are you going to be?
You know, taking care of ourchildren, uh, or vice versa?
You know, there is I.
(43:33):
I read this statistic.
I think it was like, and I mightbe wrong, but I think it was
like 65 to 75, 65 or 75% of men,men that raised their like they
(43:53):
raised their stepchildren haveat one point or another, had a
thought about that child in asexual manner, and not
necessarily, and I think youguys can look it up and my
numbers might be off, but thatwas very scary.
(44:18):
So having that conversation ofand not just even like, maybe
not, it's not even a sexualissue, maybe it's a fairness
issue, yeah, maybe it's safety,you know yeah, like safety in
the sense like, are theyemotionally safe?
they might be sexually likesaving that person might not
touch them or anything, but arethey gonna abuse them?
Right, like all of it.
So me and my husband have avery clear understanding that if
(44:41):
our, if one of us, passes, theother one is gonna have to tough
it out for until the kids leave.
Really literally, if, until thekids leave college and they are
independent, you have to toughit out.
You can't be a single, be asingle parent and that's another
(45:03):
.
Because that is that is the way, like I know, guys think, oh,
you know, I'm gonna bring thiswife and she's gonna be the mom
that like no, nobody's gonna beable to fill that space but do
you think that's kind of fair?
Speaker 2 (45:15):
though there are, that's there are good.
Speaker 3 (45:17):
There are good, yes, there are um, but again, yeah, I
I'm not saying I'm not dissingstep parents.
I have no, no um data aboutstep parent relationship.
I'm just talking about theconversation that we had and I
think it the the point that weneed to talk about is not
(45:38):
necessarily the conversationthat I had, but having the
conversation Right, having, like, how are we going to navigate
this If I pass away?
How are you going to parent ourchildren?
Who's going to be your supportsystem?
Who's going to be my supportsystem?
You know, and all of thesethings, and just making sure
that it's very, very likewritten and also with passwords,
(46:02):
right, making sure you, youhave all your passwords and all
your things in one safe space sothat, um, so that people, if
you both are gone, can thisperson that you trust knows
exactly where to go to be ableto access these funds, to be
able to talk to the right peoplewhat do you feel like there are
in this area, like there is ado's and don't you think as in
(46:26):
somebody who's?
Speaker 2 (46:27):
you know yourself as an orphan and you know what that
experience is like, and bothhow should people treat an
orphan and how, as a parent, youshould be preparing?
Those are two questions, so howdo you think that should be
provided?
Speaker 3 (46:43):
um, how do people?
I think, as a community, weshould have, like as a community
, we should have either themuslim community, muslim masjids
, um or the audible community,or east african community.
I think each community shouldhave a space where people can
come to for help.
(47:03):
And I think like and I'm verycritical, it's because I am very
I love our community so much Ifeel like sometimes I am a
little bit harsh and critical ofthat, but like our audible
community centers or you knowthe Ethiopian community center
or you know whatever that itmight be, instead of it being
just a space for Oromo nightsand whatever other activities,
(47:28):
having very constructive spacesor like where people can go for
help hey, you need therapy.
Here are and from we have aninformation center at the oromo
community center, you know, herein the masjid, making sure that
, like there are funds.
You know what about?
Like not everybody can affordlife insurance, right, some
(47:49):
people, most of our communitymembers and most americans are
living paycheck to paycheck.
So, okay, if something happens,how can we help?
How can we consistently be ableto help people?
Oh, are we able to have like afund so that we can maybe, you
know, assure that this, likethis mom and this child now, all
(48:11):
of a sudden that just losttheir parent.
You know their breadwinner areable to survive for at least
three months.
You know, having some sort oflike structure and system to
help our community as parents,um, as parents, I think again,
making sure that you have setyour children up financially, if
you are able to do so.
(48:32):
I know this is a privilegedconversation to have, but like
being able to like, hey, who'sgonna take care of my kid if I
die?
Having that conversation withthe person you plan to have to
leave your child with.
Making sure that any money thatyou have you have someone you
know the other person has accessto after you pass away, they
(48:53):
know exactly where to go to pullthis thing out.
Um, making sure that you havelike honest conversations with
your kids, like of like, hey, Ijust want to let you know I love
you and again, that alsodepends on age right, it has to
be an age appropriateconversation.
But like making sure you tellthem you love them enough you
(49:15):
have you spend every day,because one of the things is
that I'm really, really gratefulfor is that whenever I felt I
was less than whenever I feltunloved.
Whenever I felt like I had thisvacancy in my spirit, I always
could go back to those memoriesthat I had with my parents, them
(49:38):
telling me how much they lovedme, them telling me how much
they loved me, showing me howmuch they loved me.
These little memories that Itold you about, like these
quality times that I spent withthem, and I can literally go
back and say you know, theydidn't have the option to go,
they got taken right, but whilethey were here, they did
(49:59):
everything that they could toshow me that they loved me, I
was loved, I was wanted, I wasappreciated, and that that is
such a fundamental thing tostand on.
I think it's that.
No, one can take away all thattoo, because, like you know you
felt loved, you know you feltseen, you know you what that
(50:19):
feels like yeah even though someplaces in the world doesn't
show you that you had it yeah,yeah, even in in my most darkest
depressed moments, right likethat was something that I could
hold on to when, so that I justmaking sure not just you leave
your kids with money and blah,blah, blah material things, but
(50:39):
like those emotional things thatthey can hold on to when you're
not here.
Speaker 2 (50:43):
Yeah, I do want to kind of add a couple of things
about dues is like providingemotional support and mentorship
support.
I mean it's like mentorships,like people who can kind of
provide that void for those kids.
You know what I mean, not evenin a sense of like they're never
going to replace anybody thatthey lost, but just kind of
physically being present the wayyour aunt and uncles were to
(51:04):
you, you know, and showing upthe best way, you know.
And then I think we can do moreby understanding how to be
supportive emotionally there,yeah, how to allow the safe
space to be seen by those kids,to show them like it's okay that
they're feeling what they'refeeling, that they do have a
(51:25):
safe space.
And I think part of it is alsokind of understanding like how
do we kind of manage andunderstand the ignorance things
that we have as a community andbe aware of the conversation
that we say to kids, right, partof the do is like be aware of
the conversation that we say tokids, right, part of the do is
like be aware of the word thatcome out of your mouths, because
it sticks to them and they hearit very sharply and so.
(51:45):
And then part of the don't islike please don't be sympathetic
to doors, orphan and be awareof what you say, what you do,
because they're not looking foryour sympathy.
Yeah, but if you can provideempathy and compassion and be
there for them.
But sympathy is more likeasking for information.
That's not.
(52:06):
You don't need to know.
You don't need to know, youdon't have the privileges to
know this information.
If the person felt like theywant to share, carry it with the
privilege that you were in thatspace, yeah, and I also want to
say something.
Speaker 3 (52:17):
Right Sometimes, the privilege that you are in that
space, yeah, and I also want tosay something right.
Sometimes they do want to share.
Sometimes they are at that spacewhere they want to have that
conversation.
So, like, just read the room, Iguess is the best thing,
because sometimes I know thatwhen I don't want people to
pretend like my mom didn, topretend like my mom didn't exist
(52:39):
, my dad didn't exist, I wantthem to be able to have that
conversation, you know, um,lastly, I would like to say one
of the do's that I would suggestis that make sure you invite
people, make sure you make spacefor them.
You know, like, if you knowsomeone that has lost parents, a
wife that lost a husband nowthat she has kids, that, or a
(53:00):
husband that has lost the,please just step a little bit
outside of your norm and like,include them into things.
Right, make a life, make oneday less lonely, yeah, right,
just make that one day lesslonely for them.
Make, make, include them, havethem in the space.
There's nothing, because and Ithink having noise around you
(53:24):
sometimes it's so helpfulbecause it drowns out, like I
said, the echo of these spaces,that these vacancies right and
so enough that until they getthe strength to be able to
handle the echo, to be able tohandle the black space that is
there now or the blank spacethat's there now.
(53:45):
So just be there enough to apoint where, until they can be
there by themselves, absolutely,you know, yeah, I think being
very, very thoughtful, likebeing available, is important,
yeah.
Speaker 2 (54:04):
Thank you so much for allowing me to be in this space
with you and sharing this.
I felt everything that you werefeeling, so I'm honored to hear
these stories again and againand I'm always grateful for this
experience with you.
And I'm also grateful that Iget to see how much your
(54:26):
emotional strength has beengrown over years and being able
to understand the complicity ofyour experiences and still talk
about it with so much courageand bravery, and I just want to
acknowledge that as we close upon today's episode.
Speaker 3 (54:42):
Thank you.
Thank you for being in thisspace with me and in my life.
You know the last couple ofyears.
Speaker 2 (54:49):
So listeners, thank you so much for listening to us
today.
Please take this conversationto the depth of understanding.
What is it like to be an Oromoand Muslim, and generally as a
Muslim community?
How can we be able to be betterto one another, specifically
with orphans?
And the way that ProphetMuhammad sallallahu alayhi
(55:10):
sallam talked about is how wetreat the orphan, is the way
that he sees us, and so bemindful, be kind, be gentle, be
courageous and find a communityways that maybe one of you, the
listeners out there, can startnonprofit organization where we
can kind of volunteer andsupport and be there for one
(55:32):
another.
The way Bonnie was sharing, it'slike we need to show up, we
need to be available to oneanother, and part of that is how
can we do differently, betterthan our parents are done, and
how can we do differently?
So I think we're bettertogether and we do better if we
collectively are there for oneanother, because the aspect of
(55:53):
the pain would just slowlydecreases and beautifully Bonnie
shared partially for theparents out there.
Please have conversation withyour spouse and partners and
make sure that this is notsomething that is stigmatized or
ignored or avoid, and this issomething that is reality, with
life, to constantly have thisconversation.
(56:15):
So it gets easier the more wecontinue to provide cares for
your amazing children.
So I really want to appreciateeverybody for listening today.
Speaker 1 (56:25):
Until next time, this is difficult conversations,
y'all join the conversation inthe comment section or on our
instagram page to share with uswhat you think.
We do not have all the answersand our biggest goal is to kick
off and get the conversationgoing.
May Allah accept our effortsand use us as catalysts for
(56:49):
change.
As-salamu alaykum, welcome to Difficult
Conversations where we tackletaboo topics in a safe space,
through empowerment andeducation episode we're going to
(00:26):
be talking about parent and youknow and relationship with our
children and the loss of aparent and what that looks like
as an you know, being an orphan,and what that looks like in the
community, as well as thepsychological impact on children
.
So before we start, we justwant to kind of give a shout out
to our co-host, who's notfeeling well today and she's not
here.
Salam to you, akshira, and Ihope you feel better and we
(00:49):
can't wait to see you in ournext episode.
And so, yeah, me and Bonnietoday are going to be discussing
Mainly.
It's going to be Bonnieanswering some questions about
her own experiences as an orphanand what her experience was
like, and I will be kind ofdiving into getting to know her
from that perspective andallowing the space for us to
(01:12):
tell us her the way that shewalked through these experiences
for herself, and I will kind ofbe engaging on that and
supporting Bonnie in this spaceas well.
Please listen to it, and thistopic is most likely is going to
be very heavy, very, I think,is emotionally needed, and I
(01:32):
hope, as a listener, you aregiving yourself space and
support as you listen to thisepisode and hopefully you'll
learn something that isimportantly need to be discussed
in the conversation that wewill be having here and I hope
you continue to have it withyour loved ones and where we can
kind of you know talk about thethings that we don't usually
talk about it and trying to kindof have that understanding.
(01:57):
So I'm going to go ahead anddive in and ask Bonnie typical,
what was it like for her first?
And then we'll talk about fromIslamic perspective and other
aspect of it.
So so, bonnie, tell us like,what was it like for you, um?
I know in our previous episodewe talked about grief and you
talked about your parents, um,losing both of your parents
(02:18):
within the six months period andhow that affected you.
What was it afterward like lifefor you, the?
You know, just kind of, give usa little bit of summary and
that experiences for you, um?
Speaker 3 (02:30):
for me it was.
It was very interesting,because everything around you
changes when you lose yourparents, when you lose those
people that are supposed to beyour support system, your
(02:51):
providers, literally, becausefor me they passed away when I
was age all and then also youlose contact with um.
This thing that is fundamentaland most people I feel like take
for granted, which isunconditional love.
(03:13):
There is no unconditional loveoutside of like being a parent
or your parents, like yourrelationship with your parents.
Every other relationship inyour life is very conditional,
you know, including yoursiblings, so, and we don't
really know how much that meansto us until we lose it, until
(03:35):
it's not there anymore.
For me, uh, I I guess I have tokind of a little backtrack to
how I was when they were alive,right, um, I grew up in a
community where I was one of thewell-off families.
(03:56):
I had friends that um enjoyedbeing friends with me, you know,
for one reason or another, andum, I also felt like being well
off, like I and my parents being, you know, doting parents,
strict, yet doting parents.
(04:17):
Um, I never really knew umpeople's like.
I was always like appreciatedin the spaces that I entered.
I was appreciated.
In the spaces that I entered, Iwas welcomed.
In the spaces that I entered, Inever felt like I.
I was one of those people thatwas in a space that they weren't
wanted, or they made peopleuncomfortable.
(04:37):
And then I realized, very soonafter people, when I didn't have
my parents anymore, um,people's interaction with me
changed.
Either they were, uh, lookingat me through the eyes of pity,
um, or they were looking at methrough, um, the lens of
(05:01):
discomfort, because, like mypresence was making them
uncomfortable, or they werelooking at me from a space of
like vulnerability, like theycould see how vulnerable I was,
and like they would say thingsthat they never used to say
before, or they would treat mein a way that they never would
treat me before.
Um, so and I don't know if thatis just my, my sensitivity to
(05:26):
people's around me, and thatthat change, and maybe they,
it's their discomfort that mademe feel uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
You know, I have to give that um, I mean, you did
lose your parents at the youngage and you might be, at that
moment, hyper aware of people'sinteraction towards you compared
to what you didn't.
Maybe you didn't have an idea.
These people, their interactionwas not as important before it
wasn't as important before I.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
You know, like I remember this specific time, you
know when again, like when mymom had just passed away and I
really didn't have that much.
It was like a weekend, I think.
I didn't have anything to do.
(06:14):
I was at home watching TV.
And then I got bored.
So I went to a neighbor's houseand normally I would be like,
oh, Sarah's here, like Armani'shere, like Armani's here, you
know like, hi, how are you,how's it going?
And then it felt like they'relike hi, how are you?
Come on in.
And then they sat and they kindof were wondering why I was
(06:39):
Like it felt like they werewondering why I was there, even
though I was there for companyBecause, like I just there was
not anyone at home at the moment.
Yeah, um, and I mean kids, myage also, you know, with with
youth and with their also theywere young.
But at the same time, with thatcomes a level of brutality
(06:59):
because, um, they would saythings that, um, were a little
bit harsh to hear.
You know, like that was likeone of I feel like not that much
, but I remember specificincidents where specific girls
(07:22):
would use like, oh, you know,you were all that, but you're
not anymore, really.
You know, yeah, like or um, what.
What are you going to do?
You get into rent to your own.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Really, yeah, so like part of the things that I
really wanted to know was partof the psychological impact and
I think when you share that, Ican sense the impact that it had
on you and especially at theyoung brain, a young part of you
.
Yeah, that is so vulnerable offeeling accepted.
And here is just a treatmentthat you're getting from your
(08:00):
peers who are like your age kidsthat you used to play with.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I I think there's a level to it.
Like, again, I don't hold anyof it against them because
they're kids and they're usingwhatever um, whatever they can,
you know, right, like I.
So that's fine, um, but I doremember the atmosphere in my
life changing.
(08:24):
I remember like I felt like theworld had stopped for me and
everybody was like just going onabout their day and everybody I
felt like I was wounded, like Iwas a wounded animal and
everybody was just like treatingme like nothing had happened at
the same time.
So it was a very oxymoronicexperience, because at one end,
(08:45):
they were treating me verydifferently than they were
before and another end, they'renot treating me differently in a
way that I want to be treateddifferently, because I needed
help, I needed attention, Ineeded support, I needed there's
these vacancies that I neededfilled, but there were.
There was not anyone thereoutside of my family that was
(09:08):
able to fill that Like you knowwhat I mean Like outside of my
uncles that were able to be, andthey they were not.
They were not um, aware or they, they, I.
I give so much credit to thembecause they were on survival,
they were in survival apparatus.
(09:29):
They, I survived because ofthem.
I was fed, I was, I had cleanclothes, I had, you know, a bed
to sleep in, I went to school.
I never missed school.
Um, they helped me with myhomework, they did what they,
what they could, yes, but thenthe practice there was nobody
there to let.
I can cry too, yeah, you know,and to be honest, I think I
(09:50):
spent a lot of years not notexpressing any grief, like I
think after the first week Ispent a lot of time crying, um,
by myself, but then, you know, I, and then after that, I just um
(10:13):
, I stopped crying and I stopped.
I kind of just shut it and likeput, like you know, kind of put
it in a box, put it and, and Ijust didn't deal with it until I
had to deal with it because itwas showing up in different ways
in my life.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Yeah, you know, I want to explain a little bit of
the psychological impact of thatbecause, even as a
developmental stage, right,you're losing your parents
before the age of 10 years old.
At the same time, thatdramatically changed your brain,
your view of the world, yourview of safety, your view of
protection, your view ofemotional security.
(10:54):
So, like when we talked aboutthe traumatic experiences, we
can't negate that this is one ofthose form of traumatic
experiences that you have faced,where in psychology, we call it
complex trauma and where itcomes as layers.
Right, this is such a verycritical time in your stage of
development and then, all of asudden, you're like losing the
(11:16):
two main protective of yourlifehood, right, and now you are
going through the world fromthat point of view, and now you
(11:46):
are going through thisexperience I, if you, if you
don't mind talking about that alittle bit more oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
So initially I was seeking out people to because,
again, like I said, there was alot of time that I had to spend
by myself.
I was very, very um lonely inthe sense that, um, I really,
because I was hyper aware ofwhat I didn't have.
(12:14):
I was hyper aware of who didwhat before.
Again, I also like to emphasizethat, like my parents were,
parents were very, very strict,but I was spoiled, right, I was
like spoiled in the sense thatthey gave me everything that
they could.
They were there in every event,every, you know, every chance
(12:38):
they had to celebrate me.
They did right, they did right.
So, um, when all of that getsturned off, yeah, and all of a
sudden you are having thesemoments where either you're
there, are people there that aretrying to be there for you, but
(12:58):
um, can't you know in the sameway.
For example, you know some,something simple.
You know, me and my mom, onfriday nights we used to go to
um cafes.
Uh, she used to pick me up.
It was my favorite thing to do,because fridays we had um shit,
(13:19):
I didn't wear a mascara,waterproof mascara, and I knew I
was gonna cry today but you'redoing great, just vanity a
little bit.
So she used to take me to cafesand, because we had half days
and she used to pick me up, weused to go to like this cafe.
(13:40):
We used to get a cake and likejuice, like, and, um, smoothies
not just smoothies and it waslike literally one of my
favorite, like I can't waituntil it was friday because that
was something that we ate everyfriday like clockwork.
And then on the weekends, my dadhe used to work in adizaba and
(14:01):
margato, so we used to go to belike, oh, we're gonna go visit
dad, but then we're really goingthere during lunchtime so he
can take us out to a restaurant.
So, um, we would just onweekends, that's what we did.
So there was like theseregiments that we did, that all
of the sudden, fridays felt likeone of the most dreaded days
(14:22):
for me, because there was a lotof reminders, like there was
this, like you know, and like mybrain was so used to being
excited sometimes that thatinstead of excitement, it was
just pain.
You know, I was like it was somuch pain and um.
And then also there's thisfeeling of everybody seems to
(14:47):
have something I don't Everybodyand the concept of safety right
, like I felt very, veryvulnerable.
I felt like I couldn't get infight.
I never got in fights, but Icouldn't piss anybody off
because I really didn't haveanybody that was going to defend
me, right?
So I felt like I think mypeople pleasing personality
(15:10):
started then because I startedperforming not just performing,
but I started being more.
I used to be very cutthroat,like before the age of 10, I
used to be like you, either likeme or don't, I don't care.
I mean you were being assertive.
You know what I mean and beingdirect and people, people used
to know me as like oh, likeBonnie will tell, now I've kind
(15:32):
of gotten there, yeah, um, we'lltell you exactly.
Like you know, whatever I usedto be that girl, that people, um
, and either I had friends or Ididn't, and I didn't care.
I used to be like at home andmy mom would be like go out,
play with people.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
So I think that's part of it.
Is like what you mentioned, ourprevious episode, where you
said that grief would changeyour personality as a whole
Definitely, and now you, theperson that you used to be, you
no longer relate to, and thisnew version is trying to find a
sense of safety in the world.
And, however that may be, isand which is why I think we tap
into people pleasing, becausepeople pleasing is form of like
(16:09):
hey, see me, know me, like me,yeah, like me.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
Like.
I can be likable.
I can be lovable, Like see if Ijust give you everything that I
have to give then maybe you'lllove me and um about that.
You know, changingpersonalities.
I think, um, when you gothrough these phases of change,
your personality, and just moreand more frequently, because, um
(16:36):
, I feel like first you go tothat space of like withdrawal,
because you're all of a suddenyou're not safe, you're not um,
you're alone.
You are understanding, you'rebeing very hypersensitive to
people's reactions and people'schanges around you right so you
become, you withdraw, and thenfor me I don't know if this
happens to everybody else for mewhat happened was okay, I can't
(16:58):
be in this solace by myselfanymore.
This is too much.
So I started throwing myselfinto people, I started throwing
myself into friendships and Istarted throwing myself into
like I wanted my teacher.
I was like the teacher's pet.
I was having like 10,000friends, even like in.
When I came here I wanted to bethe best at everything, just
(17:19):
because I wanted to be liked, Iwanted to be recognized, I
wanted to be seen, and I thought, like any, if I got like just
enough crumbs of affection andenough crumbs of attention, then
it will fill this vacancy, thisvoid, right.
And then, um, and then Irealized, like it's too much
(17:40):
work, right.
And then that comes also withmaturity, like I'm talking about
, like maybe I did too much work, right.
And then that comes also withmaturity.
Like I'm talking about likemaybe I did that for 10 years,
right.
So like not even 10 years, Iwould say like I probably so.
Like that was 10, maybe untilend of high school, until 18.
So do you?
Speaker 2 (17:55):
think our community has a way or spaces, when you're
talking about these experiencesof kind of searching for your
void in the spaces, do you thinkas a community do we have
spaces, or do we talk about it,or do we even recognize what
does it mean to be an orphan?
And how do we?
How do we like kind of makethem inclusive into the part of
(18:16):
the community or not even makethem feel like a pity, but more
like accepting of them?
Speaker 3 (18:20):
no, I think you make that space for no, I, for my
again, my experience in myexperience, I hated being part
of the community.
I, I hated it because thepeople that knew my like about
my parents story, um, they onlything they did was and they use
that as an excuse.
(18:40):
I succeed, it's because I'myour team.
Yeah, I succeed it's becauseI'm a team.
I succeed it's because I'm ateam.
I fail it's because I'm a team.
And that's also puts like oh,you know she, so I was.
It was very, very clear to methat I can't fail, I can't
(19:01):
misbehave, I can't have ateenager moment because I don't
have my mom to defend herselfhere, because other kids could
could have a teenage moment and,like you know, have a wild
moment or whatever, like aself-expression and um, but and
then their parents were like, oh, I didn't raise her like that,
it's just just going throughsomething.
(19:21):
Like, oh, I didn't raise herlike that, it's just just going
through something you know.
And then, but for me, Icouldn't do that.
I was very clear when I camehere.
I was like there's no way.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
I will rather die than someone say, samia's child
turned out like this, but I soto that there's not a but, but
it's like to that I see as likeso much pressure on the young
teenager who is like trying tofigure out her own world, yeah,
and she's kind of trying tomanage this expectation that
(19:51):
society had pushed out on her tobe that she didn't ask for,
yeah, and instead of her tryingto kind of figure out how she
understand herself, but now shehas to kind of bring that for
everybody has to be accepting ofher, definitely, and I think,
just to go back to that idea oflike the community, I think most
of the time I I said it lasttime too which is our community,
(20:15):
likes to mine for information,for you know, either their
gossip circles or just to youknow, I don't know what the
purpose is, but they like tomine information.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
So let me tell you an incident, right?
So like I would go to a weddingand they would Hi, how are you?
I'm good, how are you?
Maybe they don't know my momand they will say, oh, this is
Naomi's, um, naomi's, uh, niece.
You know her mom.
She died back home and all ofthe sudden, the table of the
(20:50):
wedding, people that don't knoweven my name, know my story, the
most vulnerable parts of methey are exposed to, and I don't
have without me asking for itso, and, or I could go to a
wedding, the same thing.
I'm like what.
That just makes me feel rich.
I wanted me.
(21:11):
I felt like I needed to retreatmore, you know, and um again, I
feel like this is not a my onlystory when it comes to this, I
know I keep saying this is mystory, my experience.
I've seen a lot of people gothrough this where, right, but
we're talking about you, right?
Speaker 2 (21:29):
now, so your story can be the highlight.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
Yeah, and I say that I make sure, like I say that out
loud because I don't want it tobe like just it's the, these
specific people.
I've seen a lot of people thataddress.
Even just a couple of years ago, you know, I noticed this
family that lost their parents,basically, and they lost their
(21:54):
dad, and then the mom passedaway afterwards and the
conversation is just comes fromlike useless, pity, like okay,
you're pitying them, great, nowwhat?
What are you gonna do?
Are you?
Are you?
Are you there?
Are you trying to support oh,you were talking about, this
child is getting getting infights in school instead of
(22:14):
sitting around talking about itin your coffee circles or your
gym circles.
What are you trying to do tohelp this child?
You know, if we are as acommunity, you're you feel like
it's important enough to bringto your table, to bring this
issue to your table.
Are you talking about it toadvance anything or are you just
talking about it to justbackbite that child?
(22:36):
You know what?
Speaker 2 (22:36):
I mean yeah.
So then I'm hearing a couple ofthings, right, so there is the
lack of understanding of whatdoes it mean to take care of
orphans in our community, andthen there's a lack of also
understanding what that meansand not trying to look for
information to just for the sakeof gossiping and kind of
feeling pity for kids.
And then I'm also hearing, likewhat do we?
(22:58):
What is Islamically been saidabout this conversation itself?
Right, I think in islam, orphanprophet muhammad talks about
salallahu alayhi wa sallam, likewhat does it mean to be an
orphan?
He's also an orphan himself, sohe praised that, he praised us
talking to taking care of orphan, like a person who take care of
orphan.
They're like this with me injannah.
(23:19):
He talks about it, just likebeing able to be there.
And I feel like there's a lotof understanding, ignorance that
comes within our communitywhere it comes to talking about
orphan, even caring for orphan,not from a sense of feeling pity
or having a conversation topicto have, but understanding that
(23:39):
they're also a person whoexperiences the most traumatic
thing.
And naming that, I think yeah,and naming that, I think that's
something that I think we'remissing do you feel that I feel
like they don't do?
Speaker 3 (23:49):
yeah, definitely, I mean, there's no alhamdulillah
again.
Like I said, I am, I, I am an,uh, best case scenario, right,
like there's so many people thatthey, I had aunts that put me
in their life, that included mein their decisions, that made me
, you know, that I could havejust been back home, yeah Right,
like that could have been mystory.
(24:10):
Allahu alam, what would havehappened then?
But you know, and they put mein their story, they put me in
their life, they groomed me inthe way that I feel like they
knew how to the best way theyknew how to, and they, they knew
how to the best way, they knewhow to, um, and they protected
me in that such a manner, and Ithink also it was like a
bittersweet way.
They were also yetims, yeah,you know, and therefore, and
(24:34):
they, my aunts, came here, justthe two of them, and they didn't
have any other family, soeverybody also did the same
thing to them that they did tome, so they kind of prepared me
for what to expect.
Right.
So, level of isolation, Againdifferent, but because they lost
their parents.
They're a lot more older yeah,when they were older.
(24:55):
But the level of interactionand what kind of interaction I
was going to get from thecommunity, they prepared me for
those things.
And what kind of interaction Iwas going to get from the
community, they prepared me forthose things.
So I felt like which is alsowhy I came in with like 11 years
old and 12 years old, I knewimmediately, like you cannot,
(25:18):
like you can either stay as faraway from the community as you
can and therefore, like theycan't they don't know you enough
to make any judgments of you or, if you are in the community,
just make sure that you are aspristine as you can possibly be,
and that is such like you fail.
So many times Because, no,there's no way.
As a teenager, you cannot.
(25:39):
You know what.
I mean, I wouldn't call that afailure.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
I call that teenager experiencing her world.
Yeah, but I think, yeah, forthem it's like the standard that
they put you on the pedestal,that they created for you to not
me.
The idea, the idea, exactly,but that's what I'm saying.
Like you, they expecting thatfrom you, right, so eventually
they can say, oh, she's doingthat because she doesn't have a
parent.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Yeah, right, yeah, and I think even that, and if
you fail, they're gonna say shefailed because she doesn't have
a parent exactly.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
but that's what I'm saying, like the psychological
abuse in that statement, theemotional abuse that is that
statement, yeah, that it has ona child.
That's what I'm seeing you as achild who's experiencing that
and I can't comprehend the, thepain that feels like, yeah,
because you're constantlywalking in the world with the
pressure of feeling perfect,yeah, and making sure that you
(26:27):
can be perfect Right.
The pressure trying to beperfect, but even the way
they're not feeling perfect.
Speaker 3 (26:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And that is how do I?
Which school are you teachingme to be that, and what pressure
should I need to navigatethrough to get better at it?
And there's no room forforgiveness, there's no room of
understanding, and mercy, too,and there's lack of compassion
in this state.
That's what I'm trying to say,and so and the other question
that I have for you is like whatare some of the things that are
(27:00):
off the grid that they said toyou in this experience?
Is that you're like today, oh,my god, I can't believe these
people have mentally commonsense to say something like this
.
Yeah, I mean gosh, um they.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
I've had a lady like ask me to like almost um, walk
her through the days like whathappened and you know so how did
, and I was like I don't knowyou and you're literally asking
me to walk down the like memorylane to one of the most painful
moments of my life.
(27:35):
Yeah, and like it's nothing.
Or I've had, like I said, youknow, like when it came to
little kids, like they used itas weapons against me.
I've had a so-called friend andI've told you this story where
this person described me asdamaged goods, like oh, you know
(27:55):
, she, she's, she's cute, butshe's damaged goods, she's,
she's messed up in the headbecause her parents passed away.
Uh, I've had, so I mean, like,I've had people try to, um, I've
had people try to like oh, youknow, you, like, ask, yeah, like
(28:19):
, for me it's more so so manythings like.
Again, most of most of it comesfrom, I think, like kids my age
or that are very blunt and theysay things that are like oh, I
had actually friends in collegethat said you and that's also
another thing that I like totalk about in this conversation
(28:40):
is sometimes we because we're'reso, sometimes we're hyper aware
and hyper mature in certainthings and in certain spaces,
and that maturity happensbecause of the trauma response
and you said I can't.
I want to highlight it is a,it's a survival apparatus right
and then in certain spaces weare, we lack a.
(29:03):
I lacked a certain level ofmaturity because I felt like, if
I again that need forconnection, right, I felt like
if I, if I just told you why Iwas the way I was, maybe you'll
understand my tics, right.
You'll understand my tics right, you'll understand my triggers.
(29:25):
So I after like, and and thisis why I say like, please be
careful who you disclose, whatyou disclose to, yeah, when you
are in that space and if you aresomeone that is this things are
is being disclosed to you,please do it like, carry it with
mercy and and and compassion,because for me, um, I had these
(29:46):
friends that basically told meyou're, you're, you're doing it
like, you're telling us this toget like sympathy points, or
this was literally calledsympathy points or like um, just
because you have a sad story,it doesn't mean that you're,
you're um, like I don't rememberexactly the words.
(30:06):
It was like, just because youhave a sad story and just
because you have um, likebasically, whatever, uh, it
doesn't make you um any less orany more.
Like, I don't want to sayresponsible, but like, does it
make you better?
It doesn't make not better, butlike it doesn't mean that you
(30:29):
get any more slack, like itdoesn't mean like you should get
any more slack, and I think thecontext was like.
So it was like I was basicallytrying to explain.
Hey, you know, like I like this, things maybe set me off a
little bit more, I'm a littlebit more sensitive and withdrawn
and during this time, or youknow, whatever, whatever you're
(30:52):
basically communicating youremotions.
Yes, yes, and I, and they werebasically like you're just, that
happened a long time ago, likejust because, because you, you
know, whatever, like maybe Ithink, I think actually I
remember now I was kind of abitch for a week, okay, and that
(31:12):
week happened to be the weekthat I was just very, very
missing.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
My mom and I had a lot of things going on and I, um
, so you're basically having areaction from feeling sad, yeah,
and that reaction turns into bea behavior that other people
were not.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
So I apologized and I said you know, I'm so sorry.
Um, I just want to.
I'm not saying that this is anexcuse or anything, but I just
want to let you know, like Ireally was, this was happening
and this thing happened, andthen this triggered me and this
is why I was feeling this way,and then you guys kind of just
got the, the residue of whateverelse the shortcoming of it and
(31:54):
that my withdrawal wasn't, ithad nothing to do with you,
wasn't just me?
and so on and so forth.
Right, and then they were likeyeah, but right, yeah, but just
because you have this sad storyand just because and it wasn't
like I had multiple of these, Ithink this was the first time
Just because you have a sadstory and just because you don't
(32:16):
have parents, it doesn't meanthat your problems are any more
bigger than ours, or that givesyou the latitude to be, to act
any way that you want.
And I was like wait pause.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
How did you?
Speaker 3 (32:27):
handle that first.
So I I kind of went into liketrying to explain.
I was like, where is thiscoming from?
Because I I this is literallythe first time if, like one, I'm
telling you the story.
This is the first time I'mtelling you why it's happening.
Secondly, this is the firsttime I've acted out of character
(32:48):
, right, which is why I felt theneed to address it.
So where is it coming from?
Yeah, so I I kind of gotdefensive at first and then I
went into that retreat and likeI want to be like shut down
again.
So I kind of was just like youknow what I'm so sorry like.
And then later on it also cameback.
There was a lot of issues inthat friendship to begin with.
(33:11):
But, um, yeah, yeah and and I,we didn't end up by being
friends past, like I wouldn'tsay like freshman, sophomore
year of um, sophomore year ofcollege, but I remember having
that conversation and being likewow, like if I do, I'm doomed.
If I do doomed if I don't,because if I tell people, people
(33:32):
might think that, um, I'mtelling them for sympathy
purposes and if I don't tellpeople and I am having these
emotions like maybe, like Imight be withdrawn and maybe I
don't want to communicate, maybewhatever these things, then
they won't understand andtherefore they're going to like
not like me because of thesethings.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
Yeah, so I think, in a sense, that you are being able
to be understanding of thepeople that's in your life and
being able to kind of preparethem for the times that you may
feel overwhelmed and difficultynavigating this grief.
Yeah, and then so to that, thata lot of people don't have the
emotional capacity to create asafe space for you yeah, so they
kind of weaponize what you'resaying in a negative way.
(34:13):
Yeah.
So I think that is reallyfrustrating itself and how that
happens, which is difficultitself to know, and I now I've
kind of go ahead.
Speaker 3 (34:25):
No, I was just going to say because you remember how
I said, your personality changes, yeah, a lot more than normally
other people.
Yeah, so you know how.
I add, I talked about how, inat first you retreat and then I
threw my my, threw myself in andwanting to be liked and all of
these things, and then whathappens afterwards is that we
get really good at disconnection.
Yeah, I am.
I used, I'm so good at likecutting people off because now
(34:49):
you're shutting down, now I'mshutting down, right, so I'm
cutting people off and I canliterally.
People are still like shockedwhen I say, like, because I have
like a tolerance level that'shigher than other people, but
then if somebody's kind of likeyou know you've been vulnerable
and you're coming to them andthen somebody says something
like that to you.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
I think you're doing the emotional response
appropriately, the way you knowhow, by retrieving and shutting
down.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
Yeah, but sometimes it's not even appropriate.
And I like to say this becauseI like to give people a
disclaimer, just so that, like Ifeel like because I've had a
lot of time to work on this with, with my therapist, and we talk
about a lot about how sometimesit's very easy for me to just
do a guillotine and cut severedrelationships.
(35:35):
Yeah, because for me, like Isaid, I've lost, I know what
loss is, so it's like whateverthis is Right?
Speaker 2 (35:42):
Yeah, it's just like.
Yeah, it's a protective.
This is mechanism, right?
Yeah, it's just like.
Yeah, it's a protectivemechanism for you to feel safe
to feel safe.
Speaker 3 (35:47):
If you make me feel unsafe, you're gone and you
won't even realize how fast yougot gone and you are not worse
than me being an orphan.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Yes, right I already been there exactly what is the
yeah, yeah, if you're gone outof my life, I think that's fair,
but I do want to kind of switchthe gear now that you are a
parent and I wonder what thatconversation for you as well.
I'm shifting a gear, so I wantyour brain to be kind of meet me
a little bit there.
It's like what, what ispractically you and your husband
(36:17):
kind of talk about?
This experience is kind of likewhat does it mean for us and
how do we kind of create ourjust talk about this
conversation a little bit more,yeah, and so we can kind of talk
about what can parents who isin your shoes like yourself
would do for their kids inhaving this conversation,
without feeling like, oh, thisis far away, we shouldn't be
(36:38):
worrying about this versus youknow, this is a practical life.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
Yeah, Can I go just a couple of steps back before
parents to relationships?
So I feel like I'm speaking asan orphan to orphans, right, and
maybe someone that is loving anorphan and in a relationship
with an orphan.
I feel like one thing thatorphans we should know is that
(37:02):
before we get into relationshipswe have to do really thorough
introspection and reallythorough work with therapists,
with, you know, going to andfinding anchors elsewhere,
Because most of us, you know, welost our two big anchors and
therefore we're searching theworld for some other connection
(37:23):
Anchor is such a therapylanguage I just want to name
that Anchor is therapy.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
There's an actual modality called anchor therapy
and that I'm currently gettingtrained myself.
But like every time you talkabout anchor, I'm like that's
therapy language.
Good on you therapist Good onyou, therapist, but continue.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
So I feel like if we don't do the introspection, if
we don't do the internal workand heal parts of ourselves that
probably will never reallytruly heal all the way, but find
a way to medicate in thehealthiest way to help to
understand hey, these thingsthat I am doing, that I really
don't like about myself, aresymptoms of this.
(38:07):
So this is how I can mitigatethat right and being able to do
that before we get into anyserious relationships, because
if we don't do that, we will endup being in spaces that are
super vulnerable to abuse, todomestic violence, because we
like, like I said, the ideawe're hoping that person, that
person to fill that space, we'rehoping that this person is our
(38:30):
person, and we're so scared oflosing people that sometimes we
hold on to things that areliterally setting us on fire.
Yeah, and so I say make surethat you do the work before you
entertain.
You understand yourself, youunderstand yourself before you
entertain a serious relationshipand while you are, and then
(38:52):
also being a very directcommunicator with your
significant other, to be like,hey, this is how I show up, this
is who I am.
These are the things that Iexperienced and this is the
symptoms that I have because ofthese things.
Right, like for me, me and myhusband had to have that
conversation a long time agobefore we had kids and, like I
(39:15):
said, my mom passed away givingbirth right when I got pregnant
with my son actually all threeof my children got pregnant with
my son actually all three of mychildren.
I go into this sphere ofparanoia.
My son was completely different, my oldest.
I literally thought I was goingto die, so I was making videos
for my son just in case if Ipass away, just so that he could
see.
You know, like these likestories and like I was literally
(39:39):
talking to him, where thevideos that he could almost like
instead of letters.
I was doing videos for everyyear of his birthday.
I was communicating how much Ilove him and all of these things
in this video is just preppingto that and if I'm dead, you
know and um, so I make againhaving this communication, so
(40:00):
your husband and your or yourwife knows why, how you're going
to show up in the marriage.
It's again you have to bepartially, partially.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
Like you said, having those conversations are
important because it's part, youknow, and, and I think it's
like sometimes we're looking forpeople in our life to co
-parent our inner child, and Ithink our husband do that, our
friends do that and we try to dothat, and when you have kids,
you try to parent your kid andthen trying to parent yourself
in the process, because thereare some memories that will be
(40:30):
triggered because you didn't getthat, and so it's like how,
collectively, when youunderstand your emotion, you
work through those things,you're a lot more in tune, how
you show up in different spacesas this vulnerable being that
you are, because your wound isactually being opened every
single time by the specific kindof triggers, and so I do think
(40:53):
that by you kind of talking toyour husband prior to that, it's
also kind of opened the gate tohaving the conversation, which
is the question that I asked herin the air.
Speaker 3 (41:02):
So that's yeah, so you have the we had.
So when I got pregnant, we hadto have this conversation and he
didn't like.
He thought I was like what?
And I was like, no, we have tohave a conversation about who's
taking care of our kids.
We have to have a conversationabout where we're.
(41:22):
Who do we trust?
Like, what are we giving to our?
Like life insurance?
Right, like, making sure that,who is um going to be in charge
of their trust?
Right, having a trust, becausethere's a big difference between
having a will and having atrust.
Does our, do our communitiesknow that?
You know, just because youwrite something and say and put
it on your, on your um, on yoursafety box, it doesn't
(41:45):
necessarily mean that's how it'sgoing to happen after you pass
away.
Yeah, because the courts willget involved, right, and but you
, if you have a trust, it's acompletely different situation
having a trust versus having awill.
Making sure that, okay, talkingto that third party you plan to
leave your kids with, right,making sure that that person is
one, willing.
(42:06):
Two, is someone that is capable, emotionally capable, you know,
is.
Are they similar to the way youknow you would raise them?
Right?
Do they love them right, willthey love them?
Because, to be honest, justbecause they are your sister,
just because they are yourbrother, it doesn't mean that
they're going to be fair andjust and love them the way you
(42:28):
would think they would.
And you also have to understandthe way people treat your kids
while you're here is completelydifferent than the way they will
treat your kids when you're notthere, no more.
So you have to make sure thatthese people that you're living,
leaving your kids with, are.
So we had that conversationright and then going really deep
(42:51):
into talking to these people,making sure that they're ready.
One thing I really again I Ilike to take stuff from every
different culture I interactwith is that I these have is the
idea of, um, godfather andgodmothers right, and that is
basically a contract or like anunderstanding that if something
(43:13):
happens to me, you're gonna betaking care of my kids yeah, I
don't, I haven't seen a lot ofthat in our community.
And then also as parents, okay,if I die and you're here, how
are you going to be?
You know, taking care of ourchildren, uh, or vice versa?
You know, there is I.
(43:33):
I read this statistic.
I think it was like, and I mightbe wrong, but I think it was
like 65 to 75, 65 or 75% of men,men that raised their like they
(43:53):
raised their stepchildren haveat one point or another, had a
thought about that child in asexual manner, and not
necessarily, and I think youguys can look it up and my
numbers might be off, but thatwas very scary.
(44:18):
So having that conversation ofand not just even like, maybe
not, it's not even a sexualissue, maybe it's a fairness
issue, yeah, maybe it's safety,you know yeah, like safety in
the sense like, are theyemotionally safe?
they might be sexually likesaving that person might not
touch them or anything, but arethey gonna abuse them?
Right, like all of it.
So me and my husband have avery clear understanding that if
(44:41):
our, if one of us, passes, theother one is gonna have to tough
it out for until the kids leave.
Really literally, if, until thekids leave college and they are
independent, you have to toughit out.
You can't be a single, be asingle parent and that's another
(45:03):
.
Because that is that is the way, like I know, guys think, oh,
you know, I'm gonna bring thiswife and she's gonna be the mom
that like no, nobody's gonna beable to fill that space but do
you think that's kind of fair?
Speaker 2 (45:15):
though there are, that's there are good.
Speaker 3 (45:17):
There are good, yes, there are um, but again, yeah, I
I'm not saying I'm not dissingstep parents.
I have no, no um data aboutstep parent relationship.
I'm just talking about theconversation that we had and I
think it the the point that weneed to talk about is not
(45:38):
necessarily the conversationthat I had, but having the
conversation Right, having, like, how are we going to navigate
this If I pass away?
How are you going to parent ourchildren?
Who's going to be your supportsystem?
Who's going to be my supportsystem?
You know, and all of thesethings, and just making sure
that it's very, very likewritten and also with passwords,
(46:02):
right, making sure you, youhave all your passwords and all
your things in one safe space sothat, um, so that people, if
you both are gone, can thisperson that you trust knows
exactly where to go to be ableto access these funds, to be
able to talk to the right peoplewhat do you feel like there are
in this area, like there is ado's and don't you think as in
(46:26):
somebody who's?
Speaker 2 (46:27):
you know yourself as an orphan and you know what that
experience is like, and bothhow should people treat an
orphan and how, as a parent, youshould be preparing?
Those are two questions, so howdo you think that should be
provided?
Speaker 3 (46:43):
um, how do people?
I think, as a community, weshould have, like as a community
, we should have either themuslim community, muslim masjids
, um or the audible community,or east african community.
I think each community shouldhave a space where people can
come to for help.
(47:03):
And I think like and I'm verycritical, it's because I am very
I love our community so much Ifeel like sometimes I am a
little bit harsh and critical ofthat, but like our audible
community centers or you knowthe Ethiopian community center
or you know whatever that itmight be, instead of it being
just a space for Oromo nightsand whatever other activities,
(47:28):
having very constructive spacesor like where people can go for
help hey, you need therapy.
Here are and from we have aninformation center at the oromo
community center, you know, herein the masjid, making sure that
, like there are funds.
You know what about?
Like not everybody can affordlife insurance, right, some
(47:49):
people, most of our communitymembers and most americans are
living paycheck to paycheck.
So, okay, if something happens,how can we help?
How can we consistently be ableto help people?
Oh, are we able to have like afund so that we can maybe, you
know, assure that this, likethis mom and this child now, all
(48:11):
of a sudden that just losttheir parent.
You know their breadwinner areable to survive for at least
three months.
You know, having some sort oflike structure and system to
help our community as parents,um, as parents, I think again,
making sure that you have setyour children up financially, if
you are able to do so.
(48:32):
I know this is a privilegedconversation to have, but like
being able to like, hey, who'sgonna take care of my kid if I
die?
Having that conversation withthe person you plan to have to
leave your child with.
Making sure that any money thatyou have you have someone you
know the other person has accessto after you pass away, they
(48:53):
know exactly where to go to pullthis thing out.
Um, making sure that you havelike honest conversations with
your kids, like of like, hey, Ijust want to let you know I love
you and again, that alsodepends on age right, it has to
be an age appropriateconversation.
But like making sure you tellthem you love them enough you
(49:15):
have you spend every day,because one of the things is
that I'm really, really gratefulfor is that whenever I felt I
was less than whenever I feltunloved.
Whenever I felt like I had thisvacancy in my spirit, I always
could go back to those memoriesthat I had with my parents, them
(49:38):
telling me how much they lovedme, them telling me how much
they loved me, showing me howmuch they loved me.
These little memories that Itold you about, like these
quality times that I spent withthem, and I can literally go
back and say you know, theydidn't have the option to go,
they got taken right, but whilethey were here, they did
(49:59):
everything that they could toshow me that they loved me, I
was loved, I was wanted, I wasappreciated, and that that is
such a fundamental thing tostand on.
I think it's that.
No, one can take away all thattoo, because, like you know you
felt loved, you know you feltseen, you know you what that
(50:19):
feels like yeah even though someplaces in the world doesn't
show you that you had it yeah,yeah, even in in my most darkest
depressed moments, right likethat was something that I could
hold on to when, so that I justmaking sure not just you leave
your kids with money and blah,blah, blah material things, but
(50:39):
like those emotional things thatthey can hold on to when you're
not here.
Speaker 2 (50:43):
Yeah, I do want to kind of add a couple of things
about dues is like providingemotional support and mentorship
support.
I mean it's like mentorships,like people who can kind of
provide that void for those kids.
You know what I mean, not evenin a sense of like they're never
going to replace anybody thatthey lost, but just kind of
physically being present the wayyour aunt and uncles were to
(51:04):
you, you know, and showing upthe best way, you know.
And then I think we can do moreby understanding how to be
supportive emotionally there,yeah, how to allow the safe
space to be seen by those kids,to show them like it's okay that
they're feeling what they'refeeling, that they do have a
(51:25):
safe space.
And I think part of it is alsokind of understanding like how
do we kind of manage andunderstand the ignorance things
that we have as a community andbe aware of the conversation
that we say to kids, right, partof the do is like be aware of
the conversation that we say tokids, right, part of the do is
like be aware of the word thatcome out of your mouths, because
it sticks to them and they hearit very sharply and so.
(51:45):
And then part of the don't islike please don't be sympathetic
to doors, orphan and be awareof what you say, what you do,
because they're not looking foryour sympathy.
Yeah, but if you can provideempathy and compassion and be
there for them.
But sympathy is more likeasking for information.
That's not.
(52:06):
You don't need to know.
You don't need to know, youdon't have the privileges to
know this information.
If the person felt like theywant to share, carry it with the
privilege that you were in thatspace, yeah, and I also want to
say something.
Speaker 3 (52:17):
Right Sometimes, the privilege that you are in that
space, yeah, and I also want tosay something right.
Sometimes they do want to share.
Sometimes they are at that spacewhere they want to have that
conversation.
So, like, just read the room, Iguess is the best thing,
because sometimes I know thatwhen I don't want people to
pretend like my mom didn, topretend like my mom didn't exist
(52:39):
, my dad didn't exist, I wantthem to be able to have that
conversation, you know, um,lastly, I would like to say one
of the do's that I would suggestis that make sure you invite
people, make sure you make spacefor them.
You know, like, if you knowsomeone that has lost parents, a
wife that lost a husband nowthat she has kids, that, or a
(53:00):
husband that has lost the,please just step a little bit
outside of your norm and like,include them into things.
Right, make a life, make oneday less lonely, yeah, right,
just make that one day lesslonely for them.
Make, make, include them, havethem in the space.
There's nothing, because and Ithink having noise around you
(53:24):
sometimes it's so helpfulbecause it drowns out, like I
said, the echo of these spaces,that these vacancies right and
so enough that until they getthe strength to be able to
handle the echo, to be able tohandle the black space that is
there now or the blank spacethat's there now.
(53:45):
So just be there enough to apoint where, until they can be
there by themselves, absolutely,you know, yeah, I think being
very, very thoughtful, likebeing available, is important,
yeah.
Speaker 2 (54:04):
Thank you so much for allowing me to be in this space
with you and sharing this.
I felt everything that you werefeeling, so I'm honored to hear
these stories again and againand I'm always grateful for this
experience with you.
And I'm also grateful that Iget to see how much your
(54:26):
emotional strength has beengrown over years and being able
to understand the complicity ofyour experiences and still talk
about it with so much courageand bravery, and I just want to
acknowledge that as we close upon today's episode.
Speaker 3 (54:42):
Thank you.
Thank you for being in thisspace with me and in my life.
You know the last couple ofyears.
Speaker 2 (54:49):
So listeners, thank you so much for listening to us
today.
Please take this conversationto the depth of understanding.
What is it like to be an Oromoand Muslim, and generally as a
Muslim community?
How can we be able to be betterto one another, specifically
with orphans?
And the way that ProphetMuhammad sallallahu alayhi
(55:10):
sallam talked about is how wetreat the orphan, is the way
that he sees us, and so bemindful, be kind, be gentle, be
courageous and find a communityways that maybe one of you, the
listeners out there, can startnonprofit organization where we
can kind of volunteer andsupport and be there for one
(55:32):
another.
The way Bonnie was sharing, it'slike we need to show up, we
need to be available to oneanother, and part of that is how
can we do differently, betterthan our parents are done, and
how can we do differently?
So I think we're bettertogether and we do better if we
collectively are there for oneanother, because the aspect of
(55:53):
the pain would just slowlydecreases and beautifully Bonnie
shared partially for theparents out there.
Please have conversation withyour spouse and partners and
make sure that this is notsomething that is stigmatized or
ignored or avoid, and this issomething that is reality, with
life, to constantly have thisconversation.
(56:15):
So it gets easier the more wecontinue to provide cares for
your amazing children.
So I really want to appreciateeverybody for listening today.
Speaker 1 (56:25):
Until next time, this is difficult conversations,
y'all join the conversation inthe comment section or on our
instagram page to share with uswhat you think.
We do not have all the answersand our biggest goal is to kick
off and get the conversationgoing.
May Allah accept our effortsand use us as catalysts for
(56:49):
change.
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