March 18, 2024 • 34 mins
Family dynamics are like fingerprints—unique and sometimes, complex beyond words. Join us as we talk about forgiveness and how it can sometimes be hard to navigate with people closest to us.
We'll explore practical strategies for dealing with challenging interpersonal dynamics, and reveal how forgiveness, can be a vehicle for profound change. Drawing on personal experiences and the wisdom gleaned from cultural understandings, this episode is an invitation to consider forgiveness as a gateway to a lighter, more peaceful existence.
Visit our IG page at https://www.instagram.com/dc_overcoffee/ to join the conversation!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
As-salamu alaikum, welcome to Difficult
Conversations where we tackletaboo topics in a safe space
through empowerment andeducation.
The information on this podcastis for informational purposes
only and should not beconsidered professional.
Mental health advice.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
So today our conversation is going to be
focusing on why is forgiving sohard related to family, and so I
just want to talk about that alittle bit and before we can,
kind of you know, get yourladies thoughts on what that
means.
And for you, I feel likeforgiveness is one of those
things that I don't think any ofus similar to communication.
(00:43):
It was never been taught to ushow to forgive, how to
communicate, how to talk aboutdifficult stuff and even how to
do a conflict resolution inrelationships, like if something
had affected you.
How do you talk to that personsaying, hey, when you did X, y
and Z, this is how this hurt me,and I think forgiveness is part
of that.
And so I feel all of us have away of like, whether it's our
(01:06):
trauma, whether it's ourchildhood, whether it is just
even in friendship, at work,whatever environment that you
may be in, forgiveness is partof that.
And I think the other aspect offorgiveness is that we don't
always forgive for the sake ofother people.
We feel we forgive for the sakeof ourselves, because when
you're not forgiving yourself inthe situation that happened to
(01:28):
you, you kind of holding ontothat person and the impact that
that person had on you, and Isometimes wonder this is
probably the question for all ofyou guys have you guys been in
a space where you wanted toforgive the person but your ego
would not allow you to do so,because you're holding on to
like the impact or the thingsthat they said to you and how
often they said to you and howthat's related to you.
(01:51):
So, if you would love, pleaseshare examples and situations or
memories, even related to likefriends or family or work any
situation, because I feel likeforgiveness is not really talked
about as much as we want to.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
Yeah, I mean for me, another part of forgiveness that
I'm just realizing, the year of2023 is that most of the time
when we think of forgiveness andwhen we talk about forgiveness,
we think about understandingand then forgiving, or we need,
(02:28):
we think about, likeaccountability followed by
forgiveness, like there needs tobe some sort of accountability
taken by the person, theperpetrator, for us to forgive
them.
Or and that's not necessarily-true.
And I learned this actually veryrecently when I was having a
(02:50):
conversation with this onespecific person in my life that
for years have had a hard, hardtime letting go and hard time
forgiving, because they neversought my forgiveness, they
don't think that they didanything wrong.
So I was like, if you don'twant it, I'm not going to give
it to you.
If you don't think you even didanything, then I'm not going to
(03:11):
give it to you.
And I realized, and then also Iwas always having a hard time
understanding why they did whatthey did Right.
So I'm like I don't get it.
And now I see you movingdifferently and I don't
understand why you don'tunderstand what you did was
wrong, you know.
So the last couple of months Ikind of have gotten into that
(03:35):
space where I think I saw it ina movie when you understand
someone, they stop being yourenemy, like when you understand
why they did what they did orwhy they feel like what they did
was right.
Not that it's justifying it, butlike, for example, in our
(03:57):
community, our parents, theytend to say things off the cuff
and never really feel the needto apologize for it, or they
might do things that like, let'ssay, for example, spanking
right, they might spank theirkids and you're like, oh, I
don't understand why you spankedme when I was a kid or whatever
(04:18):
.
I'm just using random ideas.
And then understanding thatthey were spanked as a kid and
they were insulted as childrenand they just took it as part of
discipline, helps youunderstand why they did it to
you.
Does that make sense?
It doesn't justify that theydid it to you, but it helps you
understand why they did it toyou.
(04:38):
That way, you're, even thoughthey don't think they did
anything wrong, even though theynever come asking for
forgiveness, you're able toforgive them.
Speaker 4 (04:50):
So have you decided that this person doesn't
necessarily need to takeaccountability for you to
forgive them?
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Yeah, because expecting accountability from
someone is like I can't wait foryou to heal, for me to heal.
I can't wait for you to like.
You know, becauseaccountability comes from
healing, comes from growth.
Right, like if that person isgrowing, they will look back and
(05:19):
they say, okay, I understandthat I did such and such and I
could have moved such and suchway, but if they're not willing
to grow or if they have too muchof an ego, I can't let that
hold me back for my own growthand my own healing journey.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
So, yeah, that's really hard to do and so much
easier to say, because I thinkin my situation, in my life, you
know, there are certain peoplethat you might feel like have
wronged you or have, you know,treated you unfairly.
But I feel like it's not all inmy head, but it kind of is.
(05:57):
You know, it's like it's how Ifeel towards this situation.
It's not necessarily, it's notnecessary that this person, like
you said, thinks that they didanything wrong to you, but I
have decided to takeaccountability for myself and
start that conversation and say,hey, you know, you did such and
such to me and I feel like thatwasn't right or I felt some
(06:19):
type of way I think that's myresponsibility to do, because
that person, you know, is goingabout their day enjoying their
life, not knowing that I amholding such a so much baggage,
you know and resumfulness aboutthe situation.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Can.
Speaker 4 (06:36):
I ask you a question.
Yeah, that's okay.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
So like, let's say, for example, you have that
conversation with this person,yeah, and then they, what?
What do you?
It is the conversation, likestarting the conversation and
having that conversation.
Is that the part that you need?
Or, like, do you need them tosay okay, like first to hear you
(06:59):
out, right, To let you say yourpiece, and then, second, do you
need them to like acknowledgewhat happened?
Because the reality of thesituation is that in most Oremo
families is that you feel likeyou're crazy Because they're
like it didn't happen this way.
What are you talking about?
I was like you know, likeyou're exaggerating.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
And gaslighting yeah, definitely gaslighting.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
So like you would be talking about an event that you
were there, that person wasthere and you guys will be
seeing it completely differently.
So first you have to come intothe same reality and like this
is what actually took place.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
I think so for me, not necessarily getting them to
believe exactly how I see things, but at least hearing me out,
you know, and saying, okay, thisis how I saw it, and I'm like I
never try to, I'm not one ofthose people that like tried to
convince people of my realitybecause that's mine, right, I
(07:57):
own it, and I know that I gothrough life in my point of view
, right, and so you, bonnie, youwill never see that situation
exactly how I'm seeing it, right.
So, but so I always say, likeI'd rather be wrong than have me
wrong somebody.
So this year I'm trying to atleast tell the person, say, hey,
(08:19):
this is the situation, this iswhat happened, and a lot of
times you know the fewsituations that has happened we,
you might have the conversationand then maybe, like you know,
six months later or whatever,you might think that this
situation has been resolved, or,like you guys came on at the
same conclusion.
(08:39):
That necessarily is not thecase as well, right, and so you
just have to make sure thatyou've done your part, you've
initiated, you've said, okay,this is how this has hurt me,
and then, whatever they do,that's up to them.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
Right, I feel like that comes with the power
dynamic, though.
Like for me, like even youtalking about, I'm going to tell
them this thing, Like if it's aparent or if it's someone that
like older and that has somesort of like that has had some
sort of power over you.
It's so hard to imagine thatconversation of you sitting that
like can you imagine sittingyour mom down or like your dad
(09:17):
down and being like, yeah, let'stalk about that's different,
that's different, that'sanxiety-inducing?
Speaker 2 (09:24):
I think that's different.
I think one of the somethingthat I think one of you guys
just said right now thatresonated with me is that the
idea of memory.
Right, memory is not a fact.
Right, there is a selective ofmemory.
There's a memory that youremember accurately the way it
had affected you, and there's amemory that you suppressed and
you kind of avoided and forgotabout it until somebody or some
(09:47):
things happened to trigger youthat.
And then in our community, whathappens is that memory is a
fact.
It's like when you said thishappened to me X, y and Z way,
they will say no, that didn'thappen.
And is it, for example Becausethere's only one truth, exactly,
and theirs and theirs.
And, for example, imagine beinga parent being raised with your
(10:09):
siblings, right, and you weresharing stories about what
happened to you as a child, andyour siblings comes to you
saying that's not what happened.
Yeah, for you it happened thisway.
And if you tell them that'swhat happened to me and it
doesn't negate their experience,right, but this is your
experience they count it as anoffensive.
It's like you made that up,like you are lying.
(10:32):
No, I mean honestly.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
This is cause you just said that I had a
conversation with my littlesister and that's when I
realized like memory is a lie,like it's a complete lie, it's
constructive.
It's constructive Because wetake concepts of like, or our
brain is like so interesting,like there's conversations where
she you know, she came fromback home when she was very,
(10:57):
very young, like she went tosecond grade here, so that young
.
And when we talk about backhome, she'll be like I was there
and I did this with you guys,and I'll be like no, you weren't
, you were never there.
And like we have thesearguments and then at one point
she had convinced me that shewas there and she went on this
(11:22):
trip with my aunt and so on andso forth.
And then there are multiplepeople that told me now, like,
after like years of believingthat it was her that went, that
apparently was me that went tothis trip and that got lost.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
So she's telling you, as it happened to her, yes, and
you are saying this happened tome, not you.
No, no, no.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
I omitted that it was me and I just placed her into
the plane, cause she's told youMultiple times Okay, so you
believed it then yeah, so likeimagine I'm older than her, yeah
, so I'm like, okay, cool, itwas her.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
So this whole time we're telling other people cause
this epic story of like threetwo adults and one child getting
lost in Ethiopia, and like it'san awesome story.
So like we're telling thisstory to other people Like it's
her right.
And then the people that oneother adult that was there and
then the people that kind offound them when we found them
(12:18):
here and we talked about thisyou remember this day and other
stuff and they're like what areyou talking about?
Imo wasn't even born.
I was like what Exactly?
Speaker 4 (12:27):
It was you.
Yeah, I think I want to go backto like certain people in our
lives that you just can't broachthat topic of forgiveness with,
and like for me personally,that is my parents.
Like I've decided that you knowI'm the child you know and
they're the parent you know, andI think, because of parental
(12:50):
rights in Islam, and like I feellike you kind of have to walk a
fine line because, say, I felta certain way right, I felt some
type of way towards my mom andin a situation or something, and
knowing my mom's personality,knowing you know like how she
would take certain things, Iwill never bring that topic to
(13:11):
her right.
I will never say, mom, like youknow you did me wrong, or like
you did this in this situationand I felt some type of way
about it because it's not gonnareceive, it's not gonna be you
receive dwell you know, and soit might even be like
re-traumatizing.
Yeah, re-traumatizing, and Iknow she's gonna like fill in
(13:32):
the blanks of her own storiesand stuff like that.
And I know, you know, she's hada hard life and it's a lot of
the times it's her traumaspeaking, you know, and just
even certain comments and stufflike that.
So I personally decided to notengage in certain conversations
with her in certain situationsbut, like my siblings, people
(13:53):
who I feel like I'm able to belike, approach them and they're
approachable 100%.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
So I have something to say about that as a therapist
.
As a therapist, one of thethings that I always tell my
client is talking aboutespecially coming from immigrant
background and being a Muslimindividuals.
Talking about your experiencesdoes not negate the respect and
the love that you have for yourparents.
(14:20):
Talking about the impact thatexperience had on you does not
minimize or kind of put yourparents as a bad evil things.
It's not.
It's just the idea of younaming the experience that
happened to you, owning up tothat truth and finding a fine
line between that healingthrough it.
(14:41):
Once you heal through it,that's where your forgiveness
starts, because you still haveto learn to know that that
individual does not have theemotional capacity, empathy
capacity, to tap into, regulatethemself, to accept what you
would tell them saying you did X, y and Z to me when I was five
years old.
They're not gonna have theemotional capacity to say I am
(15:03):
so sorry, my child, that's whatI put you through and that only
happened for a person who didtheir own healing work to
recognize hey, I know I was nota good parents to you and I
wanna apologize for the way Ishowed up, not excusing it, just
validating and takingaccountability to that process.
And so sometimes what myclients do in therapy is that
(15:25):
they become very protective oftheir family.
Right, I hear it and I see it,and I see even in their body
language, where they're likeshifting on the couch, like
trying to express what.
And the first thing I always sayI am not, I respect.
I'm sure you love your parents.
I'm sure you care deeply forthem.
I'm sure you understand theiremotional trauma.
(15:46):
I'm sure you understand theirstruggles and how they meet you
and I'm sure that you understandit wasn't easy for them too.
We have to validate that, but wealso also have to validate your
experience in the midst of it.
So that being saying two thingscan be true at the same time
your experience can be true andtheir experience and their
struggle can be true.
So there's no shame of sayingI'm gonna cut off my parents.
(16:11):
That's not what we do, right?
And now coming back to thequestion that you brought about
Islam, is that I wanna caution.
Back to you guys how do youidentify the idea of forgiveness
when it comes to religion andthat kind of sometimes weaponize
a little bit more, saying likeyou have to forgive your parents
(16:31):
, you have to forgive yourfamily.
You're not allowed to cut offyour family.
There is that aspect of it andwhere is the middle ground and
how are we supposed to maneuverthat?
Speaker 4 (16:41):
I think there's the general rule right, the general
rule of keeping family ties,making sure that you're keeping
up with your extended family oryour immediate family Because,
at the end of the day, they dohave Islamic rights on you in
terms of, like I said, keepingup with them and stuff like that
.
But you also have to realizethat there are certain
(17:04):
situations where it might not bekheir or it might not be good
for you to keep those ties.
You know, and I don't rememberthe exact situations, but
there's, like I think, foursituations or something where,
like you know, if you decide tobreak the ties or if you decide
to not keep up with this person,there's no like dumb on you for
(17:28):
it or there's no sign on youfor it.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
I actually have been like listening to a lot of
lectures about this specifictopic because and the consensus
that I've gotten from theselectures is that there's it
doesn't have to be black andwhite, like it's not break ties
or keep them in your life.
(17:52):
There is a middle ground.
There is a safe, healthy groundwhere you can keep you, can,
you know, maintain your or youcan do right by them while doing
right by yourself.
So if this person is toxic inyour life, if this person
consistently is bringing anxietyand and negativity into your
(18:17):
world, then it is yourresponsibility to protect
yourself from that person.
That might not necessarily becutting them all the way off,
but it might be putting upboundaries that protect you and
that protect them.
So, if that person might besomeone that is like, shoots off
(18:37):
their mouth, right, and saysthings that are hurtful to you
and normally people like that inour community they do that in
private, like they don't do thatin public right.
So hang out with them in public, hang out with them in a space
that is like that prevents themfrom doing the thing that hurts
you, right, and keep like, ifthey do that in long
(18:59):
conversations, keep theconversation short, you know?
Hey, I said I'm going to come.
How are you?
Good, good, family good.
Okay, my check in for today isover Class, you know like.
I mean don't say that like andthen move on and being able to
be there as much as you can, butthen, at the same time, if it's
(19:20):
someone that tends to use you,put a boundary up, being like,
okay, this is how much and asmuch as I can do for this month
or this year and after that Ican't, and putting that like on
you and letting them know sothat they don't cross that.
So that's what it is.
It's not always black and white, it's not.
It doesn't have to be sohardcore.
(19:41):
But then, at the same time,there are other things where it
needs to be cutthroat, like youneed to be able to say, okay,
having this person in my life isdetrimental to me and I will
forgive you, I'll let you do.
You over there, keep your cloudand your rain and your negative
and I love you from a distance.
Speaker 4 (19:59):
But I also think that you know it's it's good
practice and habit just to havelike a general trait of like
practicing forgiveness and kindof trying to overlook people's
faults and personality traitsand stuff like that.
Because I think I don't thinkwe should be like cutthroat and
(20:19):
rigid about it.
You know, say somebody has likea bad habit or whatever, or
something like that.
I think if it's not negatively,like affecting you too much, I
don't think you should be likeokay, this person does x, y and
z cutoff.
You know, what I mean.
I think we need to foster atrait of forgiveness and kind of
(20:39):
overlooking things for peoplein general, as a general rule, I
know I do agree.
You know, if you forgive people, then a lost man's idol will
forgive you.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
I do agree, and I think it takes a lot.
Of the things that we talkabout is for you to recognize
your own level of boundaries,and there is like two aspects of
boundaries that I always talkabout is there's internal
boundaries and then externalboundaries.
Internal boundaries for you tokind of say, this is what I can
able to handle, and then this iswhat I can allow people to be
(21:13):
in this space as an externalaspect of it.
So, for example, for internalboundaries, it's like I might
not want to have conversationwith people at nine o'clock at
night.
Right, if I'm going to havevery difficult conversation, it
has to be at noon, when I havemy coffee, food is in my stomach
, and then to do it in a safespace where I feel like I'm not
in a very likeanxiety-orientated space, right,
(21:34):
that's your internal boundaries.
You're again your otherboundaries.
Your external boundaries withthat individual is like okay,
how often can I talk to them?
If I see their phone calls, ifthey're calling me, am I going
to be answering their phone callevery single time, or do I need
to say sometime okay, I see it,I'm going to answer it when I'm
ready, and that can happen bothinternal and external
(21:55):
boundaries with that person,when you decided to recognize
okay, I'm going to have thisperson in my life regardless,
right, but then to do that Ineed to do something else, to
kind of protect myself, to stillfigure out how I can maneuver
in these relationships.
Right, because in our religion,in our culture, it's not that
often people cut each other off.
How, like really cold turkey.
Speaker 4 (22:16):
Well, you're not supposed to.
They say you're not supposed to, but I think you should do it
in some aspect of it.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
I think that's up to individuals' choices to do that
and their comfortability, but Ithink it's also we are not meant
to be by ourselves.
We can't constantly like youdid this, I can't talk to you.
Do you did that, I can't.
You're going to be alone at theend of it.
So you have to figure outwhat's causing you and be able
to communicate that.
Speaker 4 (22:40):
And I think it goes back to like the overall idea of
community, right, and likewhere we're.
It's like it's not anindividualistic society, right?
I think the Islamic world viewis not.
It's geared towards communityright Gird towards doing things
for others and stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Yes and exactly.
And to kind of contribute tothat, it's like okay, how do I
maneuver in these conversations?
Speaker 3 (23:03):
Yeah, and I also want to just add two things.
When I was listening to youguys, I there's this show.
It's called Ivana Fixed my Lifeor something like that.
It's on own Yolana Yolana Fixedmy Life.
Something like that Somethinglike that.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
I don't know, I bet you're in her name.
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
Someone.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Fixed my Life.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
And when, before the show started, she was on,
actually, wow, this was see.
Mindbind is awesome.
This is like 10 years ago whenOprah did her 25 years and last
episodes and this lady came inand she said when you give
(23:45):
someone, that's something thatyou don't have you make them a
thief.
So basically, even though you'regiving that person and you're
giving them something that youdon't have, you make them a
thief, meaning that if you areconsistently like in a space
that's of default of like andthat person is coming in and
(24:06):
like, maybe sometimes they aresaying things that is in their
nature, like Abshura said.
You know, just to use thatexample, like you know, your mom
has gone through a lot.
She says things out of traumaand she doesn't know how much it
hurts you right and you can'ttell her like stop saying that
(24:26):
or you know, these things hurtme because you, that will
exasperate the situation or makeyou retraumatized.
So by her not knowing and byher not knowing and I'm not
saying you, but the you example,by that person not knowing what
they're doing and the otherperson not telling them or
(24:46):
putting up boundaries to stopthem from doing what they're
doing, they make them a thief orthey make them the villain that
they are in their story.
Does that make sense?
Because they haven'testablished anything.
They haven't establishedanything.
So to protect that relationship, to protect yourself and to
protect that person from beingsomething, from being a
(25:08):
character in your story in anegative way, you put up
boundaries and you put upboundaries, you put up
circumstances.
And one thing I learned in thelast couple of months, actually
in therapy, is the differentlevels of boundary right.
Certain situations requirerigorous, rough boundaries that
(25:28):
are like red lines in the sandcannot cross, and some
situations require porousboundaries where, depending on
the situation, like you can movethe line, you can move the
goalpost, and then some, in mostcases, in all, you should have
a healthy boundary that isstable, standard status quo.
(25:52):
That everybody knows is thewhat's up, and having those
things keeps the balance in yourlife.
And then I also wanna speak tothose people that are currently
kind of dealing with people thatthey can't address, they can't
forgive.
They are in that space of like.
This person has done too muchto me that I forgiveness is not
(26:15):
even in their area code of whatI'm feeling.
I'm in anger, I'm in, you know,whatever the case is, I'm in
depression, I'm in sadness.
I want you to understand thatforgiveness.
I know it's a cliche word, it'snot for them, it's for you.
But then, at the same time,forgiving them doesn't absolve
(26:35):
them of everything that they didto you.
It doesn't make it right, itdoesn't make it okay.
It doesn't mean that they gotaway with it.
Cause that's one thing that, forme, I had to deal with is that
I won't forgive them, so theydon't get away with what they
did, right?
If I hate you, if I'm likeblaming you all the time and if
(26:55):
I'm angry at you all the time,and if I'm, then you will know
you're off the hook.
No, you will know you're notoff the hook, right?
If I don't forgive you.
But then if I forgive you,you're off the hook.
If I forgive you, nobody'sholding you accountable, but
it's actually your verse.
It's your verse and it's notyour responsibility to hold them
accountable.
It's between them and Allah,and Allah is the best at justice
(27:20):
right.
Speaker 4 (27:21):
So, and I think, like , for like, really, really hard
situations where you feel likeyou know they're your family
member, you wanna keep thisrelationship alive, I would say,
bring in a third party.
You know somebody that youtrust and that person trusts to
say what is the situation andtalk through it.
You know somebody that's ableto hold that space for both of
(27:44):
you.
And I think that has reallytaught me that when you do hold
these conversations and kind ofhave everything out in the open,
you feel so much lighterbecause it's not taking up so
much real estate in your mind.
That, okay, and the thing Idon't know if you guys do this,
but I'm constantly thinkingabout it, Like, I'm like, and
(28:07):
then I'll have conversations inmy head with that person.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
Yeah right, practicing the pre-test, yes,
yep.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
And so I'll be like, okay, next time I'll say listen,
listen, listen.
But then when you get there,you're like yeah, when I get
there, it's like oh, like all ofa sudden I lost.
You know, I'm mute, yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Yeah.
So I think with that, whenbringing a mediator in, that I
really wanted to stress for somepeople that's not even an
option.
For some people it may be right, I know.
We wanted to kind of find amiddle ground for all of it, and
I recognize I've been withpeople that that was not an
option because even they're themediations people, they don't
(28:48):
even know how to deal with that.
So instead, what did they do islike oh, it's your family, just
forgive them.
It's your husband, just forgivehim.
Because even though the I thinkit depends on who is the
mediator.
Speaker 4 (28:59):
They'll be like yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
That's true, that's what I'm saying.
Especially it is that's whatI'm saying.
There's two right, there'saspect of like.
We want the middle of findingthe right, proper mediation
right, somebody who hasemotional intelligence to be
able to navigate that.
But then sometimes we don't.
Speaker 4 (29:14):
People don't think about that and who doesn't have
anything at stake.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
Yes, people don't think about that.
When they're looking atmediation, they're like, oh, we
need to have a requirement andthey should be this, this, this,
before they can mediate thesituation.
I don't think about that.
They're like well, they're theoldest, so they could mediate.
Speaker 3 (29:27):
But also at the same time you have to understand that
the other person might feellike bringing in a mediator
might be putting your laundryout there if that person is not
in the family.
So you have to navigate thattoo, Like, oh you're gonna, are
you Even with a mediator?
That's another.
I'm not bringing in a solution,I'm just bringing in a problem
right now.
(29:49):
You bring a mediator.
Are you gonna even be able tofeel, are you in that space to
be able to feel comfortable tosay things the way they are, in
the way?
Or are you gonna be like,unconsciously or consciously,
sugarcoating things because wehave been so ingrained into not
letting things in the family, oreven in too different to family
(30:09):
and to personal Relationships,come out and we talk, oh so but
I feel like, as in the community, as an oromo community, I feel
like we do have a tradition ofbringing mediators in, but it's
just.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
For marriage Family not for family.
Speaker 4 (30:29):
They're like certain situations like, for example,
what a jarole you know?
Yeah, they come, and Most ofthe time it's for married issues
.
Yeah, but even if like say, youknow like somebody borrowed
$10,000 from you or whatever,yeah and then they never paid
you back.
There are people in thecommunity you can be like hey,
this is the situation like acourt.
(30:49):
Yeah, you know, we have that wehave, we do yeah.
I don't.
It's just that sometimes eventhese people that are
quote-unquote trying to mediateIs yeah, there's a lot of
genuine Genuine.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
This that's a very high level bias, biases.
Yeah, I do want it to kind ofFinish up, wrap up with this
forgiving For our audience tokind of benefit of forgiving.
Right, I wanted to kind ofleave on that.
So some of the benefit offorgiving is having healthy
relationship, better mentalhealth, reducing anxiety and
(31:26):
stress, and healthy House, youknow, wholesome environment and
a few symptoms of depression andlowering your blood pressure
and a strong immune system,improving health care as well,
just physical health, and thenalso improving self-esteem.
So this is the benefit offorgiving and I just wanted to
kind of the audience to listento the fact.
Speaker 3 (31:48):
It's like what areas of your life does not forgiving
someone is kind of hold, it'shijacking for you and you do
like you do yourself a serviceby forgiving people, because
you're not like, you're notbreaking your back, holding on
to like all of this Baggage andonce you do actually forgive,
you feel so much lighter, yeah,and you're just like like I'm
(32:11):
the line or whatever they do ison them, but I've made peace
with it, I've worked through itand and Carlos, and one thing I
will also say is, beforeforgiveness, I think, taking
inventory of what happened Fromyour end, because sometimes,
also looking at things, that theway you played the situation,
(32:33):
the way like, oh, I, I movedlike this, you know it's not
always, you know it's easy topoint the finger on that other
person and me like you know,this person did this, this, this
, that the other and then beinglike I feel like making sure you
take inventory of the wholething From birds I view, so that
when you start paying attentionto the little mistakes, the
little moves that you might havemade, that are Also responsible
(32:57):
for the situation that you guysare in now, then you will have
your heart starts opening up tohave.
When you have Rahmat foryourself, you will have Rahmat
for the other person.
When you start forgivingyourself for the little mistakes
that you made, then you will beable to to forgive that other
person for the little mistakesthat they made as well.
Speaker 4 (33:14):
Just know that, though, like they are people
that, no matter what you do,they will never take
accountability and they willnever.
They will never be like, okay,what did I do in this situation?
Yeah, and honestly, with peoplelike that, you just have to
Just leave it as is.
Yeah, it's not, it's like it'snever gonna get better.
Speaker 3 (33:34):
Yeah, accountability is not the precursor to
forgiveness.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Well, thank you so much, ladies.
This has been an incredibleconversation.
Welcome to, I guess, difficultconversation.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
So I'm a like you're welcome, so I'm join the
conversation in the commentsection or on our social media
pages.
We do not have all the answersand our biggest goal is to kick
off the conversation and get itstarted.
May Allah SWT accept ourefforts and use this for
catalysts of change.
As-salamu alaikum, welcome to Difficult
Conversations where we tackletaboo topics in a safe space
through empowerment andeducation.
The information on this podcastis for informational purposes
only and should not beconsidered professional.
Mental health advice.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
So today our conversation is going to be
focusing on why is forgiving sohard related to family, and so I
just want to talk about that alittle bit and before we can,
kind of you know, get yourladies thoughts on what that
means.
And for you, I feel likeforgiveness is one of those
things that I don't think any ofus similar to communication.
(00:43):
It was never been taught to ushow to forgive, how to
communicate, how to talk aboutdifficult stuff and even how to
do a conflict resolution inrelationships, like if something
had affected you.
How do you talk to that personsaying, hey, when you did X, y
and Z, this is how this hurt me,and I think forgiveness is part
of that.
And so I feel all of us have away of like, whether it's our
(01:06):
trauma, whether it's ourchildhood, whether it is just
even in friendship, at work,whatever environment that you
may be in, forgiveness is partof that.
And I think the other aspect offorgiveness is that we don't
always forgive for the sake ofother people.
We feel we forgive for the sakeof ourselves, because when
you're not forgiving yourself inthe situation that happened to
(01:28):
you, you kind of holding ontothat person and the impact that
that person had on you, and Isometimes wonder this is
probably the question for all ofyou guys have you guys been in
a space where you wanted toforgive the person but your ego
would not allow you to do so,because you're holding on to
like the impact or the thingsthat they said to you and how
often they said to you and howthat's related to you.
(01:51):
So, if you would love, pleaseshare examples and situations or
memories, even related to likefriends or family or work any
situation, because I feel likeforgiveness is not really talked
about as much as we want to.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
Yeah, I mean for me, another part of forgiveness that
I'm just realizing, the year of2023 is that most of the time
when we think of forgiveness andwhen we talk about forgiveness,
we think about understandingand then forgiving, or we need,
(02:28):
we think about, likeaccountability followed by
forgiveness, like there needs tobe some sort of accountability
taken by the person, theperpetrator, for us to forgive
them.
Or and that's not necessarily-true.
And I learned this actually veryrecently when I was having a
(02:50):
conversation with this onespecific person in my life that
for years have had a hard, hardtime letting go and hard time
forgiving, because they neversought my forgiveness, they
don't think that they didanything wrong.
So I was like, if you don'twant it, I'm not going to give
it to you.
If you don't think you even didanything, then I'm not going to
(03:11):
give it to you.
And I realized, and then also Iwas always having a hard time
understanding why they did whatthey did Right.
So I'm like I don't get it.
And now I see you movingdifferently and I don't
understand why you don'tunderstand what you did was
wrong, you know.
So the last couple of months Ikind of have gotten into that
(03:35):
space where I think I saw it ina movie when you understand
someone, they stop being yourenemy, like when you understand
why they did what they did orwhy they feel like what they did
was right.
Not that it's justifying it, butlike, for example, in our
(03:57):
community, our parents, theytend to say things off the cuff
and never really feel the needto apologize for it, or they
might do things that like, let'ssay, for example, spanking
right, they might spank theirkids and you're like, oh, I
don't understand why you spankedme when I was a kid or whatever
(04:18):
.
I'm just using random ideas.
And then understanding thatthey were spanked as a kid and
they were insulted as childrenand they just took it as part of
discipline, helps youunderstand why they did it to
you.
Does that make sense?
It doesn't justify that theydid it to you, but it helps you
understand why they did it toyou.
(04:38):
That way, you're, even thoughthey don't think they did
anything wrong, even though theynever come asking for
forgiveness, you're able toforgive them.
Speaker 4 (04:50):
So have you decided that this person doesn't
necessarily need to takeaccountability for you to
forgive them?
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Yeah, because expecting accountability from
someone is like I can't wait foryou to heal, for me to heal.
I can't wait for you to like.
You know, becauseaccountability comes from
healing, comes from growth.
Right, like if that person isgrowing, they will look back and
(05:19):
they say, okay, I understandthat I did such and such and I
could have moved such and suchway, but if they're not willing
to grow or if they have too muchof an ego, I can't let that
hold me back for my own growthand my own healing journey.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
So, yeah, that's really hard to do and so much
easier to say, because I thinkin my situation, in my life, you
know, there are certain peoplethat you might feel like have
wronged you or have, you know,treated you unfairly.
But I feel like it's not all inmy head, but it kind of is.
(05:57):
You know, it's like it's how Ifeel towards this situation.
It's not necessarily, it's notnecessary that this person, like
you said, thinks that they didanything wrong to you, but I
have decided to takeaccountability for myself and
start that conversation and say,hey, you know, you did such and
such to me and I feel like thatwasn't right or I felt some
(06:19):
type of way I think that's myresponsibility to do, because
that person, you know, is goingabout their day enjoying their
life, not knowing that I amholding such a so much baggage,
you know and resumfulness aboutthe situation.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Can.
Speaker 4 (06:36):
I ask you a question.
Yeah, that's okay.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
So like, let's say, for example, you have that
conversation with this person,yeah, and then they, what?
What do you?
It is the conversation, likestarting the conversation and
having that conversation.
Is that the part that you need?
Or, like, do you need them tosay okay, like first to hear you
(06:59):
out, right, To let you say yourpiece, and then, second, do you
need them to like acknowledgewhat happened?
Because the reality of thesituation is that in most Oremo
families is that you feel likeyou're crazy Because they're
like it didn't happen this way.
What are you talking about?
I was like you know, likeyou're exaggerating.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
And gaslighting yeah, definitely gaslighting.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
So like you would be talking about an event that you
were there, that person wasthere and you guys will be
seeing it completely differently.
So first you have to come intothe same reality and like this
is what actually took place.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
I think so for me, not necessarily getting them to
believe exactly how I see things, but at least hearing me out,
you know, and saying, okay, thisis how I saw it, and I'm like I
never try to, I'm not one ofthose people that like tried to
convince people of my realitybecause that's mine, right, I
(07:57):
own it, and I know that I gothrough life in my point of view
, right, and so you, bonnie, youwill never see that situation
exactly how I'm seeing it, right.
So, but so I always say, likeI'd rather be wrong than have me
wrong somebody.
So this year I'm trying to atleast tell the person, say, hey,
(08:19):
this is the situation, this iswhat happened, and a lot of
times you know the fewsituations that has happened we,
you might have the conversationand then maybe, like you know,
six months later or whatever,you might think that this
situation has been resolved, or,like you guys came on at the
same conclusion.
(08:39):
That necessarily is not thecase as well, right, and so you
just have to make sure thatyou've done your part, you've
initiated, you've said, okay,this is how this has hurt me,
and then, whatever they do,that's up to them.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
Right, I feel like that comes with the power
dynamic, though.
Like for me, like even youtalking about, I'm going to tell
them this thing, Like if it's aparent or if it's someone that
like older and that has somesort of like that has had some
sort of power over you.
It's so hard to imagine thatconversation of you sitting that
like can you imagine sittingyour mom down or like your dad
(09:17):
down and being like, yeah, let'stalk about that's different,
that's different, that'sanxiety-inducing?
Speaker 2 (09:24):
I think that's different.
I think one of the somethingthat I think one of you guys
just said right now thatresonated with me is that the
idea of memory.
Right, memory is not a fact.
Right, there is a selective ofmemory.
There's a memory that youremember accurately the way it
had affected you, and there's amemory that you suppressed and
you kind of avoided and forgotabout it until somebody or some
(09:47):
things happened to trigger youthat.
And then in our community, whathappens is that memory is a
fact.
It's like when you said thishappened to me X, y and Z way,
they will say no, that didn'thappen.
And is it, for example Becausethere's only one truth, exactly,
and theirs and theirs.
And, for example, imagine beinga parent being raised with your
(10:09):
siblings, right, and you weresharing stories about what
happened to you as a child, andyour siblings comes to you
saying that's not what happened.
Yeah, for you it happened thisway.
And if you tell them that'swhat happened to me and it
doesn't negate their experience,right, but this is your
experience they count it as anoffensive.
It's like you made that up,like you are lying.
(10:32):
No, I mean honestly.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
This is cause you just said that I had a
conversation with my littlesister and that's when I
realized like memory is a lie,like it's a complete lie, it's
constructive.
It's constructive Because wetake concepts of like, or our
brain is like so interesting,like there's conversations where
she you know, she came fromback home when she was very,
(10:57):
very young, like she went tosecond grade here, so that young
.
And when we talk about backhome, she'll be like I was there
and I did this with you guys,and I'll be like no, you weren't
, you were never there.
And like we have thesearguments and then at one point
she had convinced me that shewas there and she went on this
(11:22):
trip with my aunt and so on andso forth.
And then there are multiplepeople that told me now, like,
after like years of believingthat it was her that went, that
apparently was me that went tothis trip and that got lost.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
So she's telling you, as it happened to her, yes, and
you are saying this happened tome, not you.
No, no, no.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
I omitted that it was me and I just placed her into
the plane, cause she's told youMultiple times Okay, so you
believed it then yeah, so likeimagine I'm older than her, yeah
, so I'm like, okay, cool, itwas her.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
So this whole time we're telling other people cause
this epic story of like threetwo adults and one child getting
lost in Ethiopia, and like it'san awesome story.
So like we're telling thisstory to other people Like it's
her right.
And then the people that oneother adult that was there and
then the people that kind offound them when we found them
(12:18):
here and we talked about thisyou remember this day and other
stuff and they're like what areyou talking about?
Imo wasn't even born.
I was like what Exactly?
Speaker 4 (12:27):
It was you.
Yeah, I think I want to go backto like certain people in our
lives that you just can't broachthat topic of forgiveness with,
and like for me personally,that is my parents.
Like I've decided that you knowI'm the child you know and
they're the parent you know, andI think, because of parental
(12:50):
rights in Islam, and like I feellike you kind of have to walk a
fine line because, say, I felta certain way right, I felt some
type of way towards my mom andin a situation or something, and
knowing my mom's personality,knowing you know like how she
would take certain things, Iwill never bring that topic to
(13:11):
her right.
I will never say, mom, like youknow you did me wrong, or like
you did this in this situationand I felt some type of way
about it because it's not gonnareceive, it's not gonna be you
receive dwell you know, and soit might even be like
re-traumatizing.
Yeah, re-traumatizing, and Iknow she's gonna like fill in
(13:32):
the blanks of her own storiesand stuff like that.
And I know, you know, she's hada hard life and it's a lot of
the times it's her traumaspeaking, you know, and just
even certain comments and stufflike that.
So I personally decided to notengage in certain conversations
with her in certain situationsbut, like my siblings, people
(13:53):
who I feel like I'm able to belike, approach them and they're
approachable 100%.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
So I have something to say about that as a therapist
.
As a therapist, one of thethings that I always tell my
client is talking aboutespecially coming from immigrant
background and being a Muslimindividuals.
Talking about your experiencesdoes not negate the respect and
the love that you have for yourparents.
(14:20):
Talking about the impact thatexperience had on you does not
minimize or kind of put yourparents as a bad evil things.
It's not.
It's just the idea of younaming the experience that
happened to you, owning up tothat truth and finding a fine
line between that healingthrough it.
(14:41):
Once you heal through it,that's where your forgiveness
starts, because you still haveto learn to know that that
individual does not have theemotional capacity, empathy
capacity, to tap into, regulatethemself, to accept what you
would tell them saying you did X, y and Z to me when I was five
years old.
They're not gonna have theemotional capacity to say I am
(15:03):
so sorry, my child, that's whatI put you through and that only
happened for a person who didtheir own healing work to
recognize hey, I know I was nota good parents to you and I
wanna apologize for the way Ishowed up, not excusing it, just
validating and takingaccountability to that process.
And so sometimes what myclients do in therapy is that
(15:25):
they become very protective oftheir family.
Right, I hear it and I see it,and I see even in their body
language, where they're likeshifting on the couch, like
trying to express what.
And the first thing I always sayI am not, I respect.
I'm sure you love your parents.
I'm sure you care deeply forthem.
I'm sure you understand theiremotional trauma.
(15:46):
I'm sure you understand theirstruggles and how they meet you
and I'm sure that you understandit wasn't easy for them too.
We have to validate that, but wealso also have to validate your
experience in the midst of it.
So that being saying two thingscan be true at the same time
your experience can be true andtheir experience and their
struggle can be true.
So there's no shame of sayingI'm gonna cut off my parents.
(16:11):
That's not what we do, right?
And now coming back to thequestion that you brought about
Islam, is that I wanna caution.
Back to you guys how do youidentify the idea of forgiveness
when it comes to religion andthat kind of sometimes weaponize
a little bit more, saying likeyou have to forgive your parents
(16:31):
, you have to forgive yourfamily.
You're not allowed to cut offyour family.
There is that aspect of it andwhere is the middle ground and
how are we supposed to maneuverthat?
Speaker 4 (16:41):
I think there's the general rule right, the general
rule of keeping family ties,making sure that you're keeping
up with your extended family oryour immediate family Because,
at the end of the day, they dohave Islamic rights on you in
terms of, like I said, keepingup with them and stuff like that
.
But you also have to realizethat there are certain
(17:04):
situations where it might not bekheir or it might not be good
for you to keep those ties.
You know, and I don't rememberthe exact situations, but
there's, like I think, foursituations or something where,
like you know, if you decide tobreak the ties or if you decide
to not keep up with this person,there's no like dumb on you for
(17:28):
it or there's no sign on youfor it.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
I actually have been like listening to a lot of
lectures about this specifictopic because and the consensus
that I've gotten from theselectures is that there's it
doesn't have to be black andwhite, like it's not break ties
or keep them in your life.
(17:52):
There is a middle ground.
There is a safe, healthy groundwhere you can keep you, can,
you know, maintain your or youcan do right by them while doing
right by yourself.
So if this person is toxic inyour life, if this person
consistently is bringing anxietyand and negativity into your
(18:17):
world, then it is yourresponsibility to protect
yourself from that person.
That might not necessarily becutting them all the way off,
but it might be putting upboundaries that protect you and
that protect them.
So, if that person might besomeone that is like, shoots off
(18:37):
their mouth, right, and saysthings that are hurtful to you
and normally people like that inour community they do that in
private, like they don't do thatin public right.
So hang out with them in public, hang out with them in a space
that is like that prevents themfrom doing the thing that hurts
you, right, and keep like, ifthey do that in long
(18:59):
conversations, keep theconversation short, you know?
Hey, I said I'm going to come.
How are you?
Good, good, family good.
Okay, my check in for today isover Class, you know like.
I mean don't say that like andthen move on and being able to
be there as much as you can, butthen, at the same time, if it's
(19:20):
someone that tends to use you,put a boundary up, being like,
okay, this is how much and asmuch as I can do for this month
or this year and after that Ican't, and putting that like on
you and letting them know sothat they don't cross that.
So that's what it is.
It's not always black and white, it's not.
It doesn't have to be sohardcore.
(19:41):
But then, at the same time,there are other things where it
needs to be cutthroat, like youneed to be able to say, okay,
having this person in my life isdetrimental to me and I will
forgive you, I'll let you do.
You over there, keep your cloudand your rain and your negative
and I love you from a distance.
Speaker 4 (19:59):
But I also think that you know it's it's good
practice and habit just to havelike a general trait of like
practicing forgiveness and kindof trying to overlook people's
faults and personality traitsand stuff like that.
Because I think I don't thinkwe should be like cutthroat and
(20:19):
rigid about it.
You know, say somebody has likea bad habit or whatever, or
something like that.
I think if it's not negatively,like affecting you too much, I
don't think you should be likeokay, this person does x, y and
z cutoff.
You know, what I mean.
I think we need to foster atrait of forgiveness and kind of
(20:39):
overlooking things for peoplein general, as a general rule, I
know I do agree.
You know, if you forgive people, then a lost man's idol will
forgive you.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
I do agree, and I think it takes a lot.
Of the things that we talkabout is for you to recognize
your own level of boundaries,and there is like two aspects of
boundaries that I always talkabout is there's internal
boundaries and then externalboundaries.
Internal boundaries for you tokind of say, this is what I can
able to handle, and then this iswhat I can allow people to be
(21:13):
in this space as an externalaspect of it.
So, for example, for internalboundaries, it's like I might
not want to have conversationwith people at nine o'clock at
night.
Right, if I'm going to havevery difficult conversation, it
has to be at noon, when I havemy coffee, food is in my stomach
, and then to do it in a safespace where I feel like I'm not
in a very likeanxiety-orientated space, right,
(21:34):
that's your internal boundaries.
You're again your otherboundaries.
Your external boundaries withthat individual is like okay,
how often can I talk to them?
If I see their phone calls, ifthey're calling me, am I going
to be answering their phone callevery single time, or do I need
to say sometime okay, I see it,I'm going to answer it when I'm
ready, and that can happen bothinternal and external
(21:55):
boundaries with that person,when you decided to recognize
okay, I'm going to have thisperson in my life regardless,
right, but then to do that Ineed to do something else, to
kind of protect myself, to stillfigure out how I can maneuver
in these relationships.
Right, because in our religion,in our culture, it's not that
often people cut each other off.
How, like really cold turkey.
Speaker 4 (22:16):
Well, you're not supposed to.
They say you're not supposed to, but I think you should do it
in some aspect of it.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
I think that's up to individuals' choices to do that
and their comfortability, but Ithink it's also we are not meant
to be by ourselves.
We can't constantly like youdid this, I can't talk to you.
Do you did that, I can't.
You're going to be alone at theend of it.
So you have to figure outwhat's causing you and be able
to communicate that.
Speaker 4 (22:40):
And I think it goes back to like the overall idea of
community, right, and likewhere we're.
It's like it's not anindividualistic society, right?
I think the Islamic world viewis not.
It's geared towards communityright Gird towards doing things
for others and stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Yes and exactly.
And to kind of contribute tothat, it's like okay, how do I
maneuver in these conversations?
Speaker 3 (23:03):
Yeah, and I also want to just add two things.
When I was listening to youguys, I there's this show.
It's called Ivana Fixed my Lifeor something like that.
It's on own Yolana Yolana Fixedmy Life.
Something like that Somethinglike that.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
I don't know, I bet you're in her name.
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
Someone.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Fixed my Life.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
And when, before the show started, she was on,
actually, wow, this was see.
Mindbind is awesome.
This is like 10 years ago whenOprah did her 25 years and last
episodes and this lady came inand she said when you give
(23:45):
someone, that's something thatyou don't have you make them a
thief.
So basically, even though you'regiving that person and you're
giving them something that youdon't have, you make them a
thief, meaning that if you areconsistently like in a space
that's of default of like andthat person is coming in and
(24:06):
like, maybe sometimes they aresaying things that is in their
nature, like Abshura said.
You know, just to use thatexample, like you know, your mom
has gone through a lot.
She says things out of traumaand she doesn't know how much it
hurts you right and you can'ttell her like stop saying that
(24:26):
or you know, these things hurtme because you, that will
exasperate the situation or makeyou retraumatized.
So by her not knowing and byher not knowing and I'm not
saying you, but the you example,by that person not knowing what
they're doing and the otherperson not telling them or
(24:46):
putting up boundaries to stopthem from doing what they're
doing, they make them a thief orthey make them the villain that
they are in their story.
Does that make sense?
Because they haven'testablished anything.
They haven't establishedanything.
So to protect that relationship, to protect yourself and to
protect that person from beingsomething, from being a
(25:08):
character in your story in anegative way, you put up
boundaries and you put upboundaries, you put up
circumstances.
And one thing I learned in thelast couple of months, actually
in therapy, is the differentlevels of boundary right.
Certain situations requirerigorous, rough boundaries that
(25:28):
are like red lines in the sandcannot cross, and some
situations require porousboundaries where, depending on
the situation, like you can movethe line, you can move the
goalpost, and then some, in mostcases, in all, you should have
a healthy boundary that isstable, standard status quo.
(25:52):
That everybody knows is thewhat's up, and having those
things keeps the balance in yourlife.
And then I also wanna speak tothose people that are currently
kind of dealing with people thatthey can't address, they can't
forgive.
They are in that space of like.
This person has done too muchto me that I forgiveness is not
(26:15):
even in their area code of whatI'm feeling.
I'm in anger, I'm in, you know,whatever the case is, I'm in
depression, I'm in sadness.
I want you to understand thatforgiveness.
I know it's a cliche word, it'snot for them, it's for you.
But then, at the same time,forgiving them doesn't absolve
(26:35):
them of everything that they didto you.
It doesn't make it right, itdoesn't make it okay.
It doesn't mean that they gotaway with it.
Cause that's one thing that, forme, I had to deal with is that
I won't forgive them, so theydon't get away with what they
did, right?
If I hate you, if I'm likeblaming you all the time and if
(26:55):
I'm angry at you all the time,and if I'm, then you will know
you're off the hook.
No, you will know you're notoff the hook, right?
If I don't forgive you.
But then if I forgive you,you're off the hook.
If I forgive you, nobody'sholding you accountable, but
it's actually your verse.
It's your verse and it's notyour responsibility to hold them
accountable.
It's between them and Allah,and Allah is the best at justice
(27:20):
right.
Speaker 4 (27:21):
So, and I think, like , for like, really, really hard
situations where you feel likeyou know they're your family
member, you wanna keep thisrelationship alive, I would say,
bring in a third party.
You know somebody that youtrust and that person trusts to
say what is the situation andtalk through it.
You know somebody that's ableto hold that space for both of
(27:44):
you.
And I think that has reallytaught me that when you do hold
these conversations and kind ofhave everything out in the open,
you feel so much lighterbecause it's not taking up so
much real estate in your mind.
That, okay, and the thing Idon't know if you guys do this,
but I'm constantly thinkingabout it, Like, I'm like, and
(28:07):
then I'll have conversations inmy head with that person.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
Yeah right, practicing the pre-test, yes,
yep.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
And so I'll be like, okay, next time I'll say listen,
listen, listen.
But then when you get there,you're like yeah, when I get
there, it's like oh, like all ofa sudden I lost.
You know, I'm mute, yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Yeah.
So I think with that, whenbringing a mediator in, that I
really wanted to stress for somepeople that's not even an
option.
For some people it may be right, I know.
We wanted to kind of find amiddle ground for all of it, and
I recognize I've been withpeople that that was not an
option because even they're themediations people, they don't
(28:48):
even know how to deal with that.
So instead, what did they do islike oh, it's your family, just
forgive them.
It's your husband, just forgivehim.
Because even though the I thinkit depends on who is the
mediator.
Speaker 4 (28:59):
They'll be like yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
That's true, that's what I'm saying.
Especially it is that's whatI'm saying.
There's two right, there'saspect of like.
We want the middle of findingthe right, proper mediation
right, somebody who hasemotional intelligence to be
able to navigate that.
But then sometimes we don't.
Speaker 4 (29:14):
People don't think about that and who doesn't have
anything at stake.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
Yes, people don't think about that.
When they're looking atmediation, they're like, oh, we
need to have a requirement andthey should be this, this, this,
before they can mediate thesituation.
I don't think about that.
They're like well, they're theoldest, so they could mediate.
Speaker 3 (29:27):
But also at the same time you have to understand that
the other person might feellike bringing in a mediator
might be putting your laundryout there if that person is not
in the family.
So you have to navigate thattoo, Like, oh you're gonna, are
you Even with a mediator?
That's another.
I'm not bringing in a solution,I'm just bringing in a problem
right now.
(29:49):
You bring a mediator.
Are you gonna even be able tofeel, are you in that space to
be able to feel comfortable tosay things the way they are, in
the way?
Or are you gonna be like,unconsciously or consciously,
sugarcoating things because wehave been so ingrained into not
letting things in the family, oreven in too different to family
(30:09):
and to personal Relationships,come out and we talk, oh so but
I feel like, as in the community, as an oromo community, I feel
like we do have a tradition ofbringing mediators in, but it's
just.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
For marriage Family not for family.
Speaker 4 (30:29):
They're like certain situations like, for example,
what a jarole you know?
Yeah, they come, and Most ofthe time it's for married issues
.
Yeah, but even if like say, youknow like somebody borrowed
$10,000 from you or whatever,yeah and then they never paid
you back.
There are people in thecommunity you can be like hey,
this is the situation like acourt.
(30:49):
Yeah, you know, we have that wehave, we do yeah.
I don't.
It's just that sometimes eventhese people that are
quote-unquote trying to mediateIs yeah, there's a lot of
genuine Genuine.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
This that's a very high level bias, biases.
Yeah, I do want it to kind ofFinish up, wrap up with this
forgiving For our audience tokind of benefit of forgiving.
Right, I wanted to kind ofleave on that.
So some of the benefit offorgiving is having healthy
relationship, better mentalhealth, reducing anxiety and
(31:26):
stress, and healthy House, youknow, wholesome environment and
a few symptoms of depression andlowering your blood pressure
and a strong immune system,improving health care as well,
just physical health, and thenalso improving self-esteem.
So this is the benefit offorgiving and I just wanted to
kind of the audience to listento the fact.
Speaker 3 (31:48):
It's like what areas of your life does not forgiving
someone is kind of hold, it'shijacking for you and you do
like you do yourself a serviceby forgiving people, because
you're not like, you're notbreaking your back, holding on
to like all of this Baggage andonce you do actually forgive,
you feel so much lighter, yeah,and you're just like like I'm
(32:11):
the line or whatever they do ison them, but I've made peace
with it, I've worked through itand and Carlos, and one thing I
will also say is, beforeforgiveness, I think, taking
inventory of what happened Fromyour end, because sometimes,
also looking at things, that theway you played the situation,
(32:33):
the way like, oh, I, I movedlike this, you know it's not
always, you know it's easy topoint the finger on that other
person and me like you know,this person did this, this, this
, that the other and then beinglike I feel like making sure you
take inventory of the wholething From birds I view, so that
when you start paying attentionto the little mistakes, the
little moves that you might havemade, that are Also responsible
(32:57):
for the situation that you guysare in now, then you will have
your heart starts opening up tohave.
When you have Rahmat foryourself, you will have Rahmat
for the other person.
When you start forgivingyourself for the little mistakes
that you made, then you will beable to to forgive that other
person for the little mistakesthat they made as well.
Speaker 4 (33:14):
Just know that, though, like they are people
that, no matter what you do,they will never take
accountability and they willnever.
They will never be like, okay,what did I do in this situation?
Yeah, and honestly, with peoplelike that, you just have to
Just leave it as is.
Yeah, it's not, it's like it'snever gonna get better.
Speaker 3 (33:34):
Yeah, accountability is not the precursor to
forgiveness.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Well, thank you so much, ladies.
This has been an incredibleconversation.
Welcome to, I guess, difficultconversation.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
So I'm a like you're welcome, so I'm join the
conversation in the commentsection or on our social media
pages.
We do not have all the answersand our biggest goal is to kick
off the conversation and get itstarted.
May Allah SWT accept ourefforts and use this for
catalysts of change.
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