March 3, 2025 • 34 mins
Trigger Warning: This episode talks about sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised.
We explore SA within the community, discussing its prevalence, the impact on survivors, and cultural responses to this pressing issue. We engage in open dialogue, addressing misconceptions and fostering awareness around trauma-informed care.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The information on this podcast is for
informational purposes only andshould not be considered
professional mental healthadvice.
Assalamu alaikum, welcome toDifficult Conversations.
In our topic today, we aregoing to be discussing sexual
assault.
I've kind of gone down a rabbithole of Muslim Reddit, of
(00:29):
Muslim Reddit and like there area lot of like crazy stories out
there and really sensitivestories.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
You name it.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
You know one story that caught my eye in particular
this girl.
She said she was 19 years oldand her title was I hate my
parents.
And she goes on to talk abouthow, you know, she has been
trying to love her parents for along time and and she said you
know how, like, islamically, therespect that we were supposed
(00:55):
to have, her parents and stufflike that.
And she goes on to say that hermom, you know, is physically
abusive to her and you know allthe stuff that she does and that
her dad is very like, distanttowards her.
And there was an incident thathad happened to her when she was
(01:16):
eight years old where hercousin had sexually assaulted
her and the family basicallyjust threw it under the rug.
You know they almost blamed herfor it and she was saying how
that when it happened she waseight years old.
She's currently 19.
And she just posted the storyon there to say you know what
(01:39):
advice would you guys have forme?
And she hasn't sought outtherapy yet because she said it
was really expensive and stufflike that.
And I think that you knowstories like these they're not
single instances and I know tohave in your profession.
We've talked about this beforeand how you have clients that
(01:59):
have gone, you know, sufferedfrom these situations, whether
it's, you know, a family memberin some cases, whether it's like
, you know, the fathersituations, whether it's, you
know, a family member in somecases, whether it's like, you
know, the father, thegrandfather, the uncle and stuff
like that.
So I kind of want to dive intothis issue and talk about what,
(02:25):
what in our community, what inour, um, you know, east african
community.
Why, how prevalent is this,first of all, and why is it so
prevalent?
Speaker 3 (02:40):
I think I want to talk about from a frame of
trauma and I think for me,probably one of those areas that
, as a therapist, that I am muchmore familiar with and hear
about it, and here's a lot ofstories, a lot of similar
stories that this girl haveshared on Reddit, on their on
(03:01):
Reddit, but the prevalent isthat in Oromo community, for
example, specifically, I don'tthink we are in that space to
talk about anything else.
Like in this podcast, we talkabout a lot of difficult
conversation in our community,the way that affects all of us,
but this is also another onethings that people don't talk
about and they haven't evenconversation around that in a
(03:24):
way, to frame it, to talk aboutit, to kind of consult the
victims, to create a safe spacefor the victims and then also
navigating around, how do youhandle the perpetrators and how
do you create that distance andmake sure that that person is no
longer in the space of anychildren, not just alone the
(03:47):
person who's happened to, butany other children.
And I think that conversation isnot around because people
intend to hesitate for manyreasons.
One, it can be shame, it can beguilt, it can be lack of
knowledge, ignorance, it can bea nuance that we don't even
understand in how to talk aboutsexual assault in general, and
(04:09):
there is many ways of it, and soways that in therapy I focus as
a therapist is that I'mtrauma-informed therapist.
I intend to focus on that areaand when it comes to sexual
assault is to make sure thateach individual person who comes
to my office are feeling seen.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Let's back up a little bit.
From a therapy point of view orin your profession, how would
you describe sexual assault tosomebody?
Because I feel like you know wehave those words that are
thrown around a lot Sexualassault, is it the same as rape?
You know we have those wordsthat are thrown around a lot
Sexual assault, is it the sameas rape?
You know what I mean, so justdefine it for us?
Speaker 3 (04:47):
Well, sexual assault is any unwanted touch that is
happening to individual right,anything, whether it is, you
know, any different part of bodypart For a girl it can be their
chest, for boys or girls it canbe private areas, or even the
(05:07):
touch is not just to them or theperson making them touch them
right.
And so it needs to happeneither to them and then
somebody's kind of forcing.
That that's the first beginningaspect of it, and then we have
to talk about rape itself, right, but if we're going to talk
about sexual assault, it's thatany unwanted touch that's
happening to an individual,whether it's to them or, and
(05:30):
then it happened by force, bysomebody else making them
touched up.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Yeah, it doesn't have to be specific to the private
areas, or you know, it's any,any, any touch that is
indication to a sexual behavior,right?
So if someone is touching youon the back, on your back, like
you know, not necessarily yourbottom, but your back, and it
(06:00):
has a connotation that is makingyou feel uncomfortable and
they're doing it with thatintention and it has a
connotation that is making youfeel uncomfortable and they're
doing it with that intention,that is also sexual assault, you
know, because there are timeswhen people are, like you know,
patting someone's like forearmin a way that is seductive or
that is, in a way that ispromiscuous, right, like
(06:21):
whatever, so, like any part ofyour body.
I just want to make sure thatthere's that clarification that
just because they're nottouching your bum or your
private area, it doesn't meanthat it's not sexual.
So, no, any, any, any touchonto your body, any violation
onto your body, any part of yeahany part of your body um is is
(06:52):
going going to be consideredsexual assault?
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Yes, so the other thing I want to get into is the
concept of consent, right?
So we?
What does that look like andwhat?
What are like certaincategories of people where, even
if they give the consent, ityou know it's not considered
consent.
You know what I'm trying to say.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
Well, I mean, I'm going to try my best.
So please, everyone who'slistening to this be listened to
like from a place ofopen-minded, because I'm trying
to say Well, I mean, I'm goingto try my best.
So please, everyone who'slistening to this be listened to
like from a place of openminded, because I'm not an
expert on this part specifically.
I'm just understand thetraumatic aspect of this.
Consent is anything that twoparties are mutually agreed to
doing something together.
Right, it's not going to bemanipulation, coercion.
(07:25):
It's not going to be, you know,if I do this for you, if I do
that for you, then I can.
You know you have to do thatfor me.
It's just something thatvoluntarily, with somebody's
state of mind agreeing to wantto participate in anything.
Right, that's how I woulddefine it as like, if you are
clearly understand, right nowI'm consenting to something that
(07:46):
.
I'm alert right right, I'mmentally here to understand what
I'm doing because I want to doit, not because I I'm doing it
for you, or because I wantsomething because I'm afraid, or
because if I don't do this foryou, you're not going to like me
, right?
That aspect of thought mindsetshould not even be present in
that situation.
It should be mostly like hey,do you want to do this?
(08:09):
If a person even said, maybe,if they're, if they're
hesitating, you should back off,right?
Speaker 2 (08:15):
that's how I identified it as yeah, I just, I
just wanted to also kind offind um the definition of uh,
like the actual, you know,dictionary definition of sexual
assault, and we were pretty muchon top of that um, except with
the addition of threat.
So, like the idea that if you,like the habe, said, if you
don't do something for me or ifI'm threatening your safety, um,
(08:40):
then that is even though theyhaven't done it yet or they
haven't touched, they haven't,there's not physical contact yet
.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Um, the idea of the or the threat of, you know,
bodily harm or harm to anyoneelse around jews also could be
uh, if you don't, you know,provide sexual um favors or
sexual contact with that person,then that could also be
considered sexual um assault,yes, so um, yeah, so I think,
going back to, I think what Iwas going with that question was
(09:10):
that it has to be clearly andfreely communicated, right and
so in certain situations, evenif the person agrees to it, you
can't consider it as consent,like if the person's underage,
you know, if they're notconscious, and if there's a
power dynamic you know, like ifyou're a boss to an employee or
(09:33):
something.
So those situations you know.
You can't consider it asconsent as well, because there's
(09:56):
authority difference andthere's a role difference in
that sense too.
Completed rape and I know rapeis part you know not necessarily
that all sexual assault is rape.
Rape is part of sexual assault,but rape is a form of sexual
assault.
So, coming back to that, I knowthere's no specifics in terms
of East African communitySpecific data.
(10:19):
Yeah, the specific, not specific.
Yeah, specific data andstatistics.
What do you guys think notallows or helps these situations
around community?
But do you first let's startwith do you think this is a
prevalent issue for both of you?
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Oh yes, and also I was doing a lot of research over
the last couple of days about,like, why our community?
And there's this idea of um,there's the cloak of silence
around this and you know, andeveryone there's, as someone
speaks out about it or whensomeone talks about it, it's
like shock, like how thishappens.
(10:56):
this doesn't happen in our.
That's because there is ahistory in in our community of
this actually being sexualassault, rape being an accepted
form, and it's accepted and itwas accepted in some form for a
very long time, until veryrecent years, which is Talafah.
(11:18):
In Amharic it's called Talafah,I don't know what it's called
in Oromifa.
It's when they take the, whenyou, when the guy likes a girl,
he calls his brothers, he callshis friends, and then they
basically carry her and take herkidnap her, is that?
what it's called Buta right,yeah, so they kidnap her, they
take her and they basically keepher, and then they send the
(11:39):
family either like an offer,like they rape her, right, so
that way, now she's his yes, andthen, after they rape her,
they're like okay, now we haveto marry her, and the family has
to agree for this girl to bemarried to him, because this guy
has already taken her virginity.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
In most cases it's like that also happens when the
two can agree, but the familyhas said no.
That can be an issue too.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
So basically, but because there's that history,
but it can be also used as aform of a blackmail to the
family, like you said.
Not always, but that doeshappen to you.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
But instead.
So why I say that there's asense of acceptance around it is
because, instead of the familysaying you just kidnapped our
daughter and you raped her andtherefore there's no way in hell
or high water that you're goingto marry our daughter and keep
her, and therefore there's noway in hell or high water that
you're going to marry ourdaughter and keep her.
You know, because the value ofher virginity and the what, what
will people say?
And if she, if she's not virginand if she's raped, then she
(12:39):
won't ever be able to getmarried.
That's more important, right?
So they are just like, okay,like you know, and then that
that guy gets what he wants.
So there's that history of it.
And then, in addition, when wealso we have this idea of
community and then authoritythat we put on age, right.
(12:59):
So, oh, respect your elders.
You know your elders could dono wrong.
My, you can't speak up, speakto like, speak against your
elders, all these things.
So when we have an elder, notmaybe in our generation, but
previous generations, right.
When we have an elder doingsomething inappropriate to a
(13:20):
person that's younger than them,that person, there's an um, a
power dynamic that that doesn'tallow the child to be heard.
In our community children arejust supposed to be seen, not
heard.
They're supposed to be quietand there and demure and the
idea also, what is polite?
(13:40):
What is a good child?
A good child is a quiet child,a demure child, a boy or a girl
that doesn't make too much of afuss, that's not disturbing,
that't um put the family inproblems, you know, even if
that's not their fault.
So there's no distinction, likeif you get raped or if you went
(14:00):
and had a consensual sex.
There's no distinction.
Your maga could be ruined andthere's a value in that maga.
That's so.
That's put on over the safetyof the children at some points.
You know this is not auniversal thing, this doesn't
necessarily apply to everyfamily, every parent, every
(14:20):
Oremo person.
But there's this connotationand there's this context,
historical context, that kind ofsets precedence to what's
happening now.
Right, yeah, kind of setsprecedence to what's happening
now, right?
Speaker 3 (14:29):
Yeah, I think there is that silence aspect of, like
I said earlier at the beginningof the episode is the ignorance
and is fear or shame.
So something that I want toaddress on this is that what
Bonnie just brought it up isthat the idea of blaming the
victims and covering up for theperpetrator I want to talk about
(14:52):
from the trauma point of viewof what that looks like to the
victim.
Right, because I can only speakfor the victim and this
experience is One of the threethings that happened to that
individual.
One is that the traumaticexperiences of this insult
itself.
That is something that isharsher to recover from.
(15:15):
The second part is that theshaming, the guilting, the
embarrassment that is being puton the victim.
Where are you, what are youdoing?
Speaker 2 (15:25):
What are?
Speaker 3 (15:25):
you wearing.
All this ideology.
And then the third part is thatthe lack of community family
trust on believing that victim.
That happens.
So, when that happens, a lot inmy form of the work that I do,
because, in that sense, is thatnot only that.
Now we have to work with thispain this individual have faced.
(15:46):
Now we have to work on thisperson trusting themselves,
validating themselves, believingthemselves that this actually
took place.
Right, because the environmentaround them constantly reminding
them saying you're the liar,you're the one who made it up,
you're the one who put yourselfin that situation.
You did not know that.
You know you're not supposed tobe in that space.
(16:08):
Right, everybody did that tothat person.
They isolate that victim.
And now the victim is unable toeven see themselves in the
community form, because one ofthe things that, if they do
speak up, where can they go?
Who can they rely on?
Because everybody's going toquestion their intention.
Regardless, the one thing thata lot of times is that it
(16:30):
happens to kids too.
They tell their parents thishappened to them, like this girl
in the Reddit story, is thatthe parents, they don't know
what to do, but they're likethat's not true.
Why are you still holding on tothat.
You should get over it, right,yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
This happened a long time ago, right, and I think we
like that's where we as acommunity have failed, right,
because we put these people inthese situations, like kids or,
you know, young girls, uh, where, like, when boys do and boys,
when people come over, we'relike, oh, you know, this is your
uncle, you know, and stuff likethat, we expose them to these
(17:07):
things.
And when, when they do, youknow, when these unfortunate
situations happen, we, insteadof you know, talking to the
older person and saying, hey,confronting them, we blame the
victim.
Yeah, so this is where, as acommunity, I feel like we failed
these victims.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Yeah, also, one of the few things that I was
picking up on when you werespeaking was that one the child
is getting re-victimized by thecommunity, and so the
perpetrator is not onlyviolating the person's body, the
child's sense of safety withintheir body, but then they're
(17:47):
also taking away these essentialpeople from them, right?
And then it's also sad and I'vewitnessed this working in
schools and also within thecommunity is that sometimes the
community and the family of thevictim it's themselves put the
safety and security of theperpetrator above the victim.
(18:12):
For example, let's say, forexample, an uncle that has wife
and children rapes or victimizestheir nephew or their niece
Right, their niece right.
(18:33):
When the parent finds out,instead of taking care of their
child by believing them andprosecuting the the uncle, they
will say this uncle is theprovider of these children.
They have a family.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
We can't ruin that person's life right, yeah, or
you can't put them in the handsof you know the people?
Speaker 2 (18:47):
yeah and all of these things.
In addition, one thing I'vealso noticed, uh, that could be
possibly unique to the diasporachildren, is that when we, when,
um, they have parents of thatare older, they tend to think
that the older parents tend tothink that the, the children
(19:08):
that are born here or that camehere very young, are just, uh
like, mind washed by abrainwashed by the western
society that, like that,everything that they think is
sexualized.
So this uncle that might not bethinking to do something sexual
, but the child has been sosexualized and misread it, and
(19:28):
they've been so influenced orlike liberal, liberalized,
liberalized that they arereading into the situation right
.
So that's that way they.
They tend to dismiss it easily.
Oh you know, this is a culture.
Like you can, kissing you is,it's okay, but they don't
understand what the uncle isdoing when they're not there
right um, and, and those are thethings is that when, when?
(19:52):
what parents need to understandagain.
I've worked in middle schools,I've worked in high schools and
I've had multiple conversationswith people that are Muslim,
that are Oromo, that are Somali,that you know from all walks of
life and all different fromfifth grade to 12th graders.
I've gotten a chance to speakwith Parents when they do that,
when they shush their child,they are teaching their child
(20:16):
not to trust their instincts andthen also, maybe it's not even,
it hasn't even gotten there yetthere are kids.
Kids have an innate sense oflike, an innate sense of safety,
so, like they know how theirbody feels around something
that's not OK.
So, teaching their kids to belike even something as benign as
(20:36):
like oh, this is your uncle,you know, say hi to them, give
them a hug, give them a hug,yeah, and the kid, if?
When the kid says, no, there,go.
Oh, no, don't be rude, don't belike go do it, do it, do, hug
your like how does that soundlike?
yeah, you know and or kiss youruncle, or kiss your aunt or you
know, sit on their lap or, likeyou know, it's just, it's just
(20:58):
yeah, so that kind of escalates.
In addition, when it comes tothe perpetrator side Right, this
is something I can speak from apersonal experience, people,
men I can speak only to men, menfrom our country, men from East
African community there is thisidea that no does not mean no,
yeah, no means maybe, no meansyes, if I just push hard enough
(21:20):
if.
I just I'm a little bit moresmoother and maybe she just
doesn't know what she wants.
Yeah right, she doesn't knowwhat she's gonna get.
So there's this idea that Ijust need to keep pushing and
then eventually she'll crack.
And when she cracks she'll wantme, and then that goes into
that.
That.
When there's that culture rightof like um, of chasing, like a
(21:42):
chasing culture very unhealthychasing, yeah, and the boundary
of what that chase, where thatchase ends, is specific to that
individual.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
If that individual has morals, they stop at like a
certain an okay level of okayright and then if that person
doesn't have self-control andthey don't have morals, they
will be like after I rape her,well, they don't consider rape
right after I have sex with her,then she's gonna want me yeah,
yeah, I mean, this whole aspectof it is very difficult
(22:17):
conversation in many ways that,and I think is something that we
have to kind of constantlyexpand on it and talk about a
different point of view.
You know, unfortunately this isa definitely difficult
conversation for a lot of us tohave and I understand that for
many people there might beafraid to have this conversation
and I'm just wondering whatwould that look like as far as
community Afshar, you were goingto say something earlier.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Go.
So I think, you know, in anideal situation, I think, first
off, instead of going back toour culture, we always go back
to the deen.
We always go back to what Allahsays.
We always go back to the deen,right, we always go back to what
Allah says.
And in situations like these,where you know something
unfortunate has happened, um,every individual is responsible
(23:02):
to, if they're able to, tochange something with their
hands.
You know um.
If not um, you uh change itwith your mouth.
If you're not, then you hate itin your heart.
You know um, but what?
for me, what that looks like iswhen you are made aware of a
situation, then you report ityes, you know, yes, the
(23:24):
authorities, um, you report itto people that are directly
involved and not caring so muchabout.
Like, what are people going tosay?
The kanyaanya and stuff likethat.
You know, and I know thatbecause a community that is
tight-knit like ours we do, weare like, oh you know, namnamal
nanjada and stuff like that.
But at the end of the day, wehave to realize who are we
(23:48):
obligated and who are weresponsible and who is going to
do that questioning to us.
You know, and that's Allah SWTand that's who we are
responsible to first andforemost, and it's.
I think it's well, it's such ahard situation if you do find
(24:08):
yourself in that, but I wouldsay, definitely us having this
conversation and raisingawareness kind of lifts that um
takes the cover off of it youknow, because a lot of people,
they would rather just push itunder the rug, they would rather
be like okay, that's somethingthat's not happening in our
community and, you know, don'tgo on and don't speak about it.
(24:31):
but these things need to bespoken about because there's
people's lives, um, that arebeing ruined every day.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Yeah, and the boogeyman doesn't look like a
monster, it's not a stranger,it's not a random person that's
going to break into your houseand do these things to your
children.
Actually, on my drive here, Iwas listening to a study that
was done very recently.
It was done in europe and theunited states and um, one other
(24:58):
country I can't remember, oh,canada, sorry, europe, canada
states in canada, and they did astudy, uh, and asked uh, like,
I think it was like 42 000 men,um, from different races,
different genders, different,not sorry, different races,
different races, differentgenders, different, sorry,
different races, different,obviously, different countries
and sexual orientations orwhatever, and in socioeconomic
(25:22):
classes.
And they asked them if 100%secrecy was guaranteed, if they
would be interested in havingsexual interactions with
children from the ages of 8 to14.
And I think it was I might bewrong with my statistics about
(25:45):
41% said that they would do it,they would interact in.
I think it was 41% or somethinglike that from the 42,000 that
they was interviewed in.
I think it was 41 or somethinglike that from the 42 000 that
they was interviewed, um, and itmight be higher actually, and I
can pull it up later on andcorrect myself, but I think it
was 41 of men that wereinterviewed.
They said if 100 of secrecy wasguaranteed that they would be
(26:09):
they would get themselvesinvolved with a child between
the ages of 8 and 14 yeah, andthis is what they feed off of is
the secrecy aspect of it.
And so it's not.
And then they said there wasalso another narrower question
that was asked if they alreadyhave someone in their life that
(26:30):
they feel sexually attracted toin that age group, and then that
number also was about 40percent that the men that said
that, yes, they already have achild in mind when they're
answering that question 42 000people men asked.
So this is not a boogeyman, thisis not a stranger, this is not
the odd person that's on the tvthat all the time being caught.
(26:52):
It is in our communities, it isin our, in our families.
You, just, you can't trust yourchild with anybody.
You have to trust your child,you know.
You have to trust and then alsoyou have to um know the cues,
because sometimes, because of,maybe, the precedence that we
set in our, in our households,sometimes it's not even just the
(27:14):
fact that we are not open, butsometimes the child feels shame.
Maybe that's not due to us, butbecause of what happened to
them, that they are not going tocommunicate with us, they're
not going to tell us, right, sobeing able to read your child,
being able to understand Ifthey're more withdrawn.
Seeing the clues, like if yourchild used to be a bubbly, happy
(27:36):
, outgoing person that is, youknow, welcoming to everyone, and
all of a sudden this child isseverely detached from one
family member or from one genderin general.
Or if they are, they used to bejust a normal child and they're
overly sexual.
All of this added right.
It could go one way or theother, if either the child will
(27:58):
be afraid of anyone that look,that's like any.
If it's a girl, maybe the girlmight be afraid of any men that
you know she might beinteracting with it's very slow
though, yes, very slow, beforeyou can get to anything, all the
stuff that you're mentioning.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
It's very slow, yeah, and when the the shock down,
then the aspect of what you'rementioning comes up.
So to notice it it might behard, but just know your child.
Yeah, get to know your child.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Create a space where your child can have these
conversations with you.
In addition, if you are aparent, please educate
yourselves in these kinds ofsituations of like what does a
victim's attitude look like?
How to notice symptoms in achild.
Not even just that, but also toteach your children.
(28:49):
There was this beautifully doneclassroom demonstration that I
saw um lead on classroom uhdemonstration that I saw I think
it was in india or pakistan,where this teacher is teaching
her um, her students, how, like,what's what's okay to be
touched, what's okay not to betouched in your body?
If a person comes and shakesyour hand, is that okay?
Yes.
(29:09):
If the person comes to yourhand and pats your head, yes.
If the person comes to yourhand and like even the different
types of pats right.
So if a person comes and saysthis is it your head?
Yes.
If the person comes in yourhand and like even the different
types of pats right.
So if a person comes and saysthis, is it okay?
Yes, okay.
If the person comes and doesdoing this for a longer time, is
that okay?
No, you understand, yeah.
So, like kind of walking theirchild through yes or no, and
they it's not necessarily thismeans this, because that might
(29:31):
be too traumatic for afour-year-old or a five-year-old
to understand.
Right, just the yes or the nopart.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Yeah, I remember Madia was watching this Omar and
Hana show episode and I thoughtthey did a really good job and
I was really surprised becausethey I don't know if you know,
but they're like, oh, you knowwhat is safe touch and they made
it into like a whole song.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
And I was like wow, that's.
You know what is safe touch andthey made it into like a whole
song and I was like, wow, that's, you know like it's, it's super
prevalent when you can see,when you see it on omar and
hannah, yeah, so yeah, okay,well, that's.
There's no good way of pivotingfrom there.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
No, yeah, yeah so I think I just want to end it on
some constructive um steps.
You, as a therapist, when youhave, you know, clients that are
like OK, this is what I'minvolved in, I think you had
mentioned earlier some, somestuff that you would tell them,
what is like one or two actionitems that you usually tell your
(30:31):
clients and you want to sayyour thought and then we can go
there.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Okay, no, I was also just going to bring it back a
little bit to current events andpast events that are in our
community that I've noticed andthat I wanted to address just
because there is a history ofthat is that one is when the
idea of everybody loves theirfamily members right and because
right now we were talking justfor the parents and the victims
(30:56):
and I want to talk to thefamilies that could be family of
the perpetrator Right, just toput it out there everybody loves
their family member, everybodyis protective of their family
member and it's OK to feelprotective of your family
members.
It's OK to love your familymembers, it's OK to want to
defend your family members,protective of your family
members.
It's okay to love your familymembers.
It's okay to want to defendyour family members, but just to
(31:18):
a certain degree, making sureyou take a step back a little
bit, a little bit, taking thestep back to understand, to hear
the whole situation.
And I say this even you know II say this knowing how hard it
could be right.
Imagine if it, if it's yourlike, if your father that's
being accused or your brotherthat's being accused or your
(31:39):
uncle that's being accused ofthese things and I understand
the need to come out,gangbusters and being like no, I
know my family member, theywould never do such and such
things.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
That reminds me of the hadith where the Prophet he
says help your brother, whetherhe is the oppressed or he's the
oppressor, and you help him, youknow, as an oppressor, by
stopping his oppression, becauseyou know, when you are like,
okay, this is wrong, then he canstart to get help, yeah right,
and maybe mend his ways.
(32:10):
But if you just let him keep ondoing what he's doing, um,
you're buying him a ticket to,you know, to to Jahannam in the
Akhira.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Yeah, and help doesn't always mean, like you
said, clapping for the otherperson.
It just means it could alsomeans holding them accountable
and holding their feet to thefire.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
Yeah, you have to ask that question again.
So so, like I said, you know Iwant to end it on a.
I mean, I think there's no goodnote that you could end this
conversation on, and you know weare not saying this is the end
all be all conversation aboutthis.
We just wanted to get theconversation going and at least
(32:47):
start it somewhere and we wantpeople to continue in the
comments and, you know, haveconversations like this with
your friends, you're, you know,if you have kids, and just being
super hypervigilant about it.
But I wanted to just say whatis one or two things that you
usually tell your clients whoyou know say okay, this is the
(33:08):
situation I find myself in, orthey, it's happened to me before
, or or anything like that.
Just I know I don't know if youcan even boil it down to one or
two things.
No, no.
Speaker 3 (33:21):
I don't tell them anything.
I really don't but I do makethem the space that feels safe
enough that their story andtheir truth are being heard and
being noticed and they feelvalidated for their experiences,
for their own truth, becausethere have been many people
before they came to me that theytry to tell the story and there
(33:45):
has been so many people beforethey came to me where they felt
questioned, judged, shamed.
All has been filtered for them.
But my job is to always createa safe space for people and not
be judgmental in any aspect ofit.
And so I don't know for me as atherapist, as a human being, as
someone who believes in Allahand want to make sure that you
(34:07):
know that person's feeling takencare of.
I just create safe space forthem.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
Okay.
So just create safe space forpeople and and believe them.
You know, when somebody comesyou with a situation like this,
um, just give them the space tojust talk and listen, without
any bias, without you knowsaying, have you tried this,
have you done this, have youdone this?
Definitely don't solve it.
Yeah, and listen, and with thatwe'll leave you with this heavy
(34:35):
, heavy conversation.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
This has been Difficult Conversations
Assalamualaikum.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
Waalaikumsalam.
The information on this podcast is for
informational purposes only andshould not be considered
professional mental healthadvice.
Assalamu alaikum, welcome toDifficult Conversations.
In our topic today, we aregoing to be discussing sexual
assault.
I've kind of gone down a rabbithole of Muslim Reddit, of
(00:29):
Muslim Reddit and like there area lot of like crazy stories out
there and really sensitivestories.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
You name it.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
You know one story that caught my eye in particular
this girl.
She said she was 19 years oldand her title was I hate my
parents.
And she goes on to talk abouthow, you know, she has been
trying to love her parents for along time and and she said you
know how, like, islamically, therespect that we were supposed
(00:55):
to have, her parents and stufflike that.
And she goes on to say that hermom, you know, is physically
abusive to her and you know allthe stuff that she does and that
her dad is very like, distanttowards her.
And there was an incident thathad happened to her when she was
(01:16):
eight years old where hercousin had sexually assaulted
her and the family basicallyjust threw it under the rug.
You know they almost blamed herfor it and she was saying how
that when it happened she waseight years old.
She's currently 19.
And she just posted the storyon there to say you know what
(01:39):
advice would you guys have forme?
And she hasn't sought outtherapy yet because she said it
was really expensive and stufflike that.
And I think that you knowstories like these they're not
single instances and I know tohave in your profession.
We've talked about this beforeand how you have clients that
(01:59):
have gone, you know, sufferedfrom these situations, whether
it's, you know, a family memberin some cases, whether it's like
, you know, the fathersituations, whether it's, you
know, a family member in somecases, whether it's like, you
know, the father, thegrandfather, the uncle and stuff
like that.
So I kind of want to dive intothis issue and talk about what,
(02:25):
what in our community, what inour, um, you know, east african
community.
Why, how prevalent is this,first of all, and why is it so
prevalent?
Speaker 3 (02:40):
I think I want to talk about from a frame of
trauma and I think for me,probably one of those areas that
, as a therapist, that I am muchmore familiar with and hear
about it, and here's a lot ofstories, a lot of similar
stories that this girl haveshared on Reddit, on their on
(03:01):
Reddit, but the prevalent isthat in Oromo community, for
example, specifically, I don'tthink we are in that space to
talk about anything else.
Like in this podcast, we talkabout a lot of difficult
conversation in our community,the way that affects all of us,
but this is also another onethings that people don't talk
about and they haven't evenconversation around that in a
(03:24):
way, to frame it, to talk aboutit, to kind of consult the
victims, to create a safe spacefor the victims and then also
navigating around, how do youhandle the perpetrators and how
do you create that distance andmake sure that that person is no
longer in the space of anychildren, not just alone the
(03:47):
person who's happened to, butany other children.
And I think that conversation isnot around because people
intend to hesitate for manyreasons.
One, it can be shame, it can beguilt, it can be lack of
knowledge, ignorance, it can bea nuance that we don't even
understand in how to talk aboutsexual assault in general, and
(04:09):
there is many ways of it, and soways that in therapy I focus as
a therapist is that I'mtrauma-informed therapist.
I intend to focus on that areaand when it comes to sexual
assault is to make sure thateach individual person who comes
to my office are feeling seen.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Let's back up a little bit.
From a therapy point of view orin your profession, how would
you describe sexual assault tosomebody?
Because I feel like you know wehave those words that are
thrown around a lot Sexualassault, is it the same as rape?
You know we have those wordsthat are thrown around a lot
Sexual assault, is it the sameas rape?
You know what I mean, so justdefine it for us?
Speaker 3 (04:47):
Well, sexual assault is any unwanted touch that is
happening to individual right,anything, whether it is, you
know, any different part of bodypart For a girl it can be their
chest, for boys or girls it canbe private areas, or even the
(05:07):
touch is not just to them or theperson making them touch them
right.
And so it needs to happeneither to them and then
somebody's kind of forcing.
That that's the first beginningaspect of it, and then we have
to talk about rape itself, right, but if we're going to talk
about sexual assault, it's thatany unwanted touch that's
happening to an individual,whether it's to them or, and
(05:30):
then it happened by force, bysomebody else making them
touched up.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Yeah, it doesn't have to be specific to the private
areas, or you know, it's any,any, any touch that is
indication to a sexual behavior,right?
So if someone is touching youon the back, on your back, like
you know, not necessarily yourbottom, but your back, and it
(06:00):
has a connotation that is makingyou feel uncomfortable and
they're doing it with thatintention and it has a
connotation that is making youfeel uncomfortable and they're
doing it with that intention,that is also sexual assault, you
know, because there are timeswhen people are, like you know,
patting someone's like forearmin a way that is seductive or
that is, in a way that ispromiscuous, right, like
(06:21):
whatever, so, like any part ofyour body.
I just want to make sure thatthere's that clarification that
just because they're nottouching your bum or your
private area, it doesn't meanthat it's not sexual.
So, no, any, any, any touchonto your body, any violation
onto your body, any part of yeahany part of your body um is is
(06:52):
going going to be consideredsexual assault?
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Yes, so the other thing I want to get into is the
concept of consent, right?
So we?
What does that look like andwhat?
What are like certaincategories of people where, even
if they give the consent, ityou know it's not considered
consent.
You know what I'm trying to say.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
Well, I mean, I'm going to try my best.
So please, everyone who'slistening to this be listened to
like from a place ofopen-minded, because I'm trying
to say Well, I mean, I'm goingto try my best.
So please, everyone who'slistening to this be listened to
like from a place of openminded, because I'm not an
expert on this part specifically.
I'm just understand thetraumatic aspect of this.
Consent is anything that twoparties are mutually agreed to
doing something together.
Right, it's not going to bemanipulation, coercion.
(07:25):
It's not going to be, you know,if I do this for you, if I do
that for you, then I can.
You know you have to do thatfor me.
It's just something thatvoluntarily, with somebody's
state of mind agreeing to wantto participate in anything.
Right, that's how I woulddefine it as like, if you are
clearly understand, right nowI'm consenting to something that
(07:46):
.
I'm alert right right, I'mmentally here to understand what
I'm doing because I want to doit, not because I I'm doing it
for you, or because I wantsomething because I'm afraid, or
because if I don't do this foryou, you're not going to like me
, right?
That aspect of thought mindsetshould not even be present in
that situation.
It should be mostly like hey,do you want to do this?
(08:09):
If a person even said, maybe,if they're, if they're
hesitating, you should back off,right?
Speaker 2 (08:15):
that's how I identified it as yeah, I just, I
just wanted to also kind offind um the definition of uh,
like the actual, you know,dictionary definition of sexual
assault, and we were pretty muchon top of that um, except with
the addition of threat.
So, like the idea that if you,like the habe, said, if you
don't do something for me or ifI'm threatening your safety, um,
(08:40):
then that is even though theyhaven't done it yet or they
haven't touched, they haven't,there's not physical contact yet
.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Um, the idea of the or the threat of, you know,
bodily harm or harm to anyoneelse around jews also could be
uh, if you don't, you know,provide sexual um favors or
sexual contact with that person,then that could also be
considered sexual um assault,yes, so um, yeah, so I think,
going back to, I think what Iwas going with that question was
(09:10):
that it has to be clearly andfreely communicated, right and
so in certain situations, evenif the person agrees to it, you
can't consider it as consent,like if the person's underage,
you know, if they're notconscious, and if there's a
power dynamic you know, like ifyou're a boss to an employee or
(09:33):
something.
So those situations you know.
You can't consider it asconsent as well, because there's
(09:56):
authority difference andthere's a role difference in
that sense too.
Completed rape and I know rapeis part you know not necessarily
that all sexual assault is rape.
Rape is part of sexual assault,but rape is a form of sexual
assault.
So, coming back to that, I knowthere's no specifics in terms
of East African communitySpecific data.
(10:19):
Yeah, the specific, not specific.
Yeah, specific data andstatistics.
What do you guys think notallows or helps these situations
around community?
But do you first let's startwith do you think this is a
prevalent issue for both of you?
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Oh yes, and also I was doing a lot of research over
the last couple of days about,like, why our community?
And there's this idea of um,there's the cloak of silence
around this and you know, andeveryone there's, as someone
speaks out about it or whensomeone talks about it, it's
like shock, like how thishappens.
(10:56):
this doesn't happen in our.
That's because there is ahistory in in our community of
this actually being sexualassault, rape being an accepted
form, and it's accepted and itwas accepted in some form for a
very long time, until veryrecent years, which is Talafah.
(11:18):
In Amharic it's called Talafah,I don't know what it's called
in Oromifa.
It's when they take the, whenyou, when the guy likes a girl,
he calls his brothers, he callshis friends, and then they
basically carry her and take herkidnap her, is that?
what it's called Buta right,yeah, so they kidnap her, they
take her and they basically keepher, and then they send the
(11:39):
family either like an offer,like they rape her, right, so
that way, now she's his yes, andthen, after they rape her,
they're like okay, now we haveto marry her, and the family has
to agree for this girl to bemarried to him, because this guy
has already taken her virginity.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
In most cases it's like that also happens when the
two can agree, but the familyhas said no.
That can be an issue too.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
So basically, but because there's that history,
but it can be also used as aform of a blackmail to the
family, like you said.
Not always, but that doeshappen to you.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
But instead.
So why I say that there's asense of acceptance around it is
because, instead of the familysaying you just kidnapped our
daughter and you raped her andtherefore there's no way in hell
or high water that you're goingto marry our daughter and keep
her, and therefore there's noway in hell or high water that
you're going to marry ourdaughter and keep her.
You know, because the value ofher virginity and the what, what
will people say?
And if she, if she's not virginand if she's raped, then she
(12:39):
won't ever be able to getmarried.
That's more important, right?
So they are just like, okay,like you know, and then that
that guy gets what he wants.
So there's that history of it.
And then, in addition, when wealso we have this idea of
community and then authoritythat we put on age, right.
(12:59):
So, oh, respect your elders.
You know your elders could dono wrong.
My, you can't speak up, speakto like, speak against your
elders, all these things.
So when we have an elder, notmaybe in our generation, but
previous generations, right.
When we have an elder doingsomething inappropriate to a
(13:20):
person that's younger than them,that person, there's an um, a
power dynamic that that doesn'tallow the child to be heard.
In our community children arejust supposed to be seen, not
heard.
They're supposed to be quietand there and demure and the
idea also, what is polite?
(13:40):
What is a good child?
A good child is a quiet child,a demure child, a boy or a girl
that doesn't make too much of afuss, that's not disturbing,
that't um put the family inproblems, you know, even if
that's not their fault.
So there's no distinction, likeif you get raped or if you went
(14:00):
and had a consensual sex.
There's no distinction.
Your maga could be ruined andthere's a value in that maga.
That's so.
That's put on over the safetyof the children at some points.
You know this is not auniversal thing, this doesn't
necessarily apply to everyfamily, every parent, every
(14:20):
Oremo person.
But there's this connotationand there's this context,
historical context, that kind ofsets precedence to what's
happening now.
Right, yeah, kind of setsprecedence to what's happening
now, right?
Speaker 3 (14:29):
Yeah, I think there is that silence aspect of, like
I said earlier at the beginningof the episode is the ignorance
and is fear or shame.
So something that I want toaddress on this is that what
Bonnie just brought it up isthat the idea of blaming the
victims and covering up for theperpetrator I want to talk about
(14:52):
from the trauma point of viewof what that looks like to the
victim.
Right, because I can only speakfor the victim and this
experience is One of the threethings that happened to that
individual.
One is that the traumaticexperiences of this insult
itself.
That is something that isharsher to recover from.
(15:15):
The second part is that theshaming, the guilting, the
embarrassment that is being puton the victim.
Where are you, what are youdoing?
Speaker 2 (15:25):
What are?
Speaker 3 (15:25):
you wearing.
All this ideology.
And then the third part is thatthe lack of community family
trust on believing that victim.
That happens.
So, when that happens, a lot inmy form of the work that I do,
because, in that sense, is thatnot only that.
Now we have to work with thispain this individual have faced.
(15:46):
Now we have to work on thisperson trusting themselves,
validating themselves, believingthemselves that this actually
took place.
Right, because the environmentaround them constantly reminding
them saying you're the liar,you're the one who made it up,
you're the one who put yourselfin that situation.
You did not know that.
You know you're not supposed tobe in that space.
(16:08):
Right, everybody did that tothat person.
They isolate that victim.
And now the victim is unable toeven see themselves in the
community form, because one ofthe things that, if they do
speak up, where can they go?
Who can they rely on?
Because everybody's going toquestion their intention.
Regardless, the one thing thata lot of times is that it
(16:30):
happens to kids too.
They tell their parents thishappened to them, like this girl
in the Reddit story, is thatthe parents, they don't know
what to do, but they're likethat's not true.
Why are you still holding on tothat.
You should get over it, right,yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
This happened a long time ago, right, and I think we
like that's where we as acommunity have failed, right,
because we put these people inthese situations, like kids or,
you know, young girls, uh, where, like, when boys do and boys,
when people come over, we'relike, oh, you know, this is your
uncle, you know, and stuff likethat, we expose them to these
(17:07):
things.
And when, when they do, youknow, when these unfortunate
situations happen, we, insteadof you know, talking to the
older person and saying, hey,confronting them, we blame the
victim.
Yeah, so this is where, as acommunity, I feel like we failed
these victims.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Yeah, also, one of the few things that I was
picking up on when you werespeaking was that one the child
is getting re-victimized by thecommunity, and so the
perpetrator is not onlyviolating the person's body, the
child's sense of safety withintheir body, but then they're
(17:47):
also taking away these essentialpeople from them, right?
And then it's also sad and I'vewitnessed this working in
schools and also within thecommunity is that sometimes the
community and the family of thevictim it's themselves put the
safety and security of theperpetrator above the victim.
(18:12):
For example, let's say, forexample, an uncle that has wife
and children rapes or victimizestheir nephew or their niece
Right, their niece right.
(18:33):
When the parent finds out,instead of taking care of their
child by believing them andprosecuting the the uncle, they
will say this uncle is theprovider of these children.
They have a family.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
We can't ruin that person's life right, yeah, or
you can't put them in the handsof you know the people?
Speaker 2 (18:47):
yeah and all of these things.
In addition, one thing I'vealso noticed, uh, that could be
possibly unique to the diasporachildren, is that when we, when,
um, they have parents of thatare older, they tend to think
that the older parents tend tothink that the, the children
(19:08):
that are born here or that camehere very young, are just, uh
like, mind washed by abrainwashed by the western
society that, like that,everything that they think is
sexualized.
So this uncle that might not bethinking to do something sexual
, but the child has been sosexualized and misread it, and
(19:28):
they've been so influenced orlike liberal, liberalized,
liberalized that they arereading into the situation right
.
So that's that way they.
They tend to dismiss it easily.
Oh you know, this is a culture.
Like you can, kissing you is,it's okay, but they don't
understand what the uncle isdoing when they're not there
right um, and, and those are thethings is that when, when?
(19:52):
what parents need to understandagain.
I've worked in middle schools,I've worked in high schools and
I've had multiple conversationswith people that are Muslim,
that are Oromo, that are Somali,that you know from all walks of
life and all different fromfifth grade to 12th graders.
I've gotten a chance to speakwith Parents when they do that,
when they shush their child,they are teaching their child
(20:16):
not to trust their instincts andthen also, maybe it's not even,
it hasn't even gotten there yetthere are kids.
Kids have an innate sense oflike, an innate sense of safety,
so, like they know how theirbody feels around something
that's not OK.
So, teaching their kids to belike even something as benign as
(20:36):
like oh, this is your uncle,you know, say hi to them, give
them a hug, give them a hug,yeah, and the kid, if?
When the kid says, no, there,go.
Oh, no, don't be rude, don't belike go do it, do it, do, hug
your like how does that soundlike?
yeah, you know and or kiss youruncle, or kiss your aunt or you
know, sit on their lap or, likeyou know, it's just, it's just
(20:58):
yeah, so that kind of escalates.
In addition, when it comes tothe perpetrator side Right, this
is something I can speak from apersonal experience, people,
men I can speak only to men, menfrom our country, men from East
African community there is thisidea that no does not mean no,
yeah, no means maybe, no meansyes, if I just push hard enough
(21:20):
if.
I just I'm a little bit moresmoother and maybe she just
doesn't know what she wants.
Yeah right, she doesn't knowwhat she's gonna get.
So there's this idea that Ijust need to keep pushing and
then eventually she'll crack.
And when she cracks she'll wantme, and then that goes into
that.
That.
When there's that culture rightof like um, of chasing, like a
(21:42):
chasing culture very unhealthychasing, yeah, and the boundary
of what that chase, where thatchase ends, is specific to that
individual.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
If that individual has morals, they stop at like a
certain an okay level of okayright and then if that person
doesn't have self-control andthey don't have morals, they
will be like after I rape her,well, they don't consider rape
right after I have sex with her,then she's gonna want me yeah,
yeah, I mean, this whole aspectof it is very difficult
(22:17):
conversation in many ways that,and I think is something that we
have to kind of constantlyexpand on it and talk about a
different point of view.
You know, unfortunately this isa definitely difficult
conversation for a lot of us tohave and I understand that for
many people there might beafraid to have this conversation
and I'm just wondering whatwould that look like as far as
community Afshar, you were goingto say something earlier.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Go.
So I think, you know, in anideal situation, I think, first
off, instead of going back toour culture, we always go back
to the deen.
We always go back to what Allahsays.
We always go back to the deen,right, we always go back to what
Allah says.
And in situations like these,where you know something
unfortunate has happened, um,every individual is responsible
(23:02):
to, if they're able to, tochange something with their
hands.
You know um.
If not um, you uh change itwith your mouth.
If you're not, then you hate itin your heart.
You know um, but what?
for me, what that looks like iswhen you are made aware of a
situation, then you report ityes, you know, yes, the
(23:24):
authorities, um, you report itto people that are directly
involved and not caring so muchabout.
Like, what are people going tosay?
The kanyaanya and stuff likethat.
You know, and I know thatbecause a community that is
tight-knit like ours we do, weare like, oh you know, namnamal
nanjada and stuff like that.
But at the end of the day, wehave to realize who are we
(23:48):
obligated and who are weresponsible and who is going to
do that questioning to us.
You know, and that's Allah SWTand that's who we are
responsible to first andforemost, and it's.
I think it's well, it's such ahard situation if you do find
(24:08):
yourself in that, but I wouldsay, definitely us having this
conversation and raisingawareness kind of lifts that um
takes the cover off of it youknow, because a lot of people,
they would rather just push itunder the rug, they would rather
be like okay, that's somethingthat's not happening in our
community and, you know, don'tgo on and don't speak about it.
(24:31):
but these things need to bespoken about because there's
people's lives, um, that arebeing ruined every day.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Yeah, and the boogeyman doesn't look like a
monster, it's not a stranger,it's not a random person that's
going to break into your houseand do these things to your
children.
Actually, on my drive here, Iwas listening to a study that
was done very recently.
It was done in europe and theunited states and um, one other
(24:58):
country I can't remember, oh,canada, sorry, europe, canada
states in canada, and they did astudy, uh, and asked uh, like,
I think it was like 42 000 men,um, from different races,
different genders, different,not sorry, different races,
different races, differentgenders, different, sorry,
different races, different,obviously, different countries
and sexual orientations orwhatever, and in socioeconomic
(25:22):
classes.
And they asked them if 100%secrecy was guaranteed, if they
would be interested in havingsexual interactions with
children from the ages of 8 to14.
And I think it was I might bewrong with my statistics about
(25:45):
41% said that they would do it,they would interact in.
I think it was 41% or somethinglike that from the 42,000 that
they was interviewed in.
I think it was 41 or somethinglike that from the 42 000 that
they was interviewed, um, and itmight be higher actually, and I
can pull it up later on andcorrect myself, but I think it
was 41 of men that wereinterviewed.
They said if 100 of secrecy wasguaranteed that they would be
(26:09):
they would get themselvesinvolved with a child between
the ages of 8 and 14 yeah, andthis is what they feed off of is
the secrecy aspect of it.
And so it's not.
And then they said there wasalso another narrower question
that was asked if they alreadyhave someone in their life that
(26:30):
they feel sexually attracted toin that age group, and then that
number also was about 40percent that the men that said
that, yes, they already have achild in mind when they're
answering that question 42 000people men asked.
So this is not a boogeyman, thisis not a stranger, this is not
the odd person that's on the tvthat all the time being caught.
(26:52):
It is in our communities, it isin our, in our families.
You, just, you can't trust yourchild with anybody.
You have to trust your child,you know.
You have to trust and then alsoyou have to um know the cues,
because sometimes, because of,maybe, the precedence that we
set in our, in our households,sometimes it's not even just the
(27:14):
fact that we are not open, butsometimes the child feels shame.
Maybe that's not due to us, butbecause of what happened to
them, that they are not going tocommunicate with us, they're
not going to tell us, right, sobeing able to read your child,
being able to understand Ifthey're more withdrawn.
Seeing the clues, like if yourchild used to be a bubbly, happy
(27:36):
, outgoing person that is, youknow, welcoming to everyone, and
all of a sudden this child isseverely detached from one
family member or from one genderin general.
Or if they are, they used to bejust a normal child and they're
overly sexual.
All of this added right.
It could go one way or theother, if either the child will
(27:58):
be afraid of anyone that look,that's like any.
If it's a girl, maybe the girlmight be afraid of any men that
you know she might beinteracting with it's very slow
though, yes, very slow, beforeyou can get to anything, all the
stuff that you're mentioning.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
It's very slow, yeah, and when the the shock down,
then the aspect of what you'rementioning comes up.
So to notice it it might behard, but just know your child.
Yeah, get to know your child.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Create a space where your child can have these
conversations with you.
In addition, if you are aparent, please educate
yourselves in these kinds ofsituations of like what does a
victim's attitude look like?
How to notice symptoms in achild.
Not even just that, but also toteach your children.
(28:49):
There was this beautifully doneclassroom demonstration that I
saw um lead on classroom uhdemonstration that I saw I think
it was in india or pakistan,where this teacher is teaching
her um, her students, how, like,what's what's okay to be
touched, what's okay not to betouched in your body?
If a person comes and shakesyour hand, is that okay?
Yes.
(29:09):
If the person comes to yourhand and pats your head, yes.
If the person comes to yourhand and like even the different
types of pats right.
So if a person comes and saysthis is it your head?
Yes.
If the person comes in yourhand and like even the different
types of pats right.
So if a person comes and saysthis, is it okay?
Yes, okay.
If the person comes and doesdoing this for a longer time, is
that okay?
No, you understand, yeah.
So, like kind of walking theirchild through yes or no, and
they it's not necessarily thismeans this, because that might
(29:31):
be too traumatic for afour-year-old or a five-year-old
to understand.
Right, just the yes or the nopart.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Yeah, I remember Madia was watching this Omar and
Hana show episode and I thoughtthey did a really good job and
I was really surprised becausethey I don't know if you know,
but they're like, oh, you knowwhat is safe touch and they made
it into like a whole song.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
And I was like wow, that's.
You know what is safe touch andthey made it into like a whole
song and I was like, wow, that's, you know like it's, it's super
prevalent when you can see,when you see it on omar and
hannah, yeah, so yeah, okay,well, that's.
There's no good way of pivotingfrom there.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
No, yeah, yeah so I think I just want to end it on
some constructive um steps.
You, as a therapist, when youhave, you know, clients that are
like OK, this is what I'minvolved in, I think you had
mentioned earlier some, somestuff that you would tell them,
what is like one or two actionitems that you usually tell your
(30:31):
clients and you want to sayyour thought and then we can go
there.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Okay, no, I was also just going to bring it back a
little bit to current events andpast events that are in our
community that I've noticed andthat I wanted to address just
because there is a history ofthat is that one is when the
idea of everybody loves theirfamily members right and because
right now we were talking justfor the parents and the victims
(30:56):
and I want to talk to thefamilies that could be family of
the perpetrator Right, just toput it out there everybody loves
their family member, everybodyis protective of their family
member and it's OK to feelprotective of your family
members.
It's OK to love your familymembers, it's OK to want to
defend your family members,protective of your family
members.
It's okay to love your familymembers.
It's okay to want to defendyour family members, but just to
(31:18):
a certain degree, making sureyou take a step back a little
bit, a little bit, taking thestep back to understand, to hear
the whole situation.
And I say this even you know II say this knowing how hard it
could be right.
Imagine if it, if it's yourlike, if your father that's
being accused or your brotherthat's being accused or your
(31:39):
uncle that's being accused ofthese things and I understand
the need to come out,gangbusters and being like no, I
know my family member, theywould never do such and such
things.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
That reminds me of the hadith where the Prophet he
says help your brother, whetherhe is the oppressed or he's the
oppressor, and you help him, youknow, as an oppressor, by
stopping his oppression, becauseyou know, when you are like,
okay, this is wrong, then he canstart to get help, yeah right,
and maybe mend his ways.
(32:10):
But if you just let him keep ondoing what he's doing, um,
you're buying him a ticket to,you know, to to Jahannam in the
Akhira.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Yeah, and help doesn't always mean, like you
said, clapping for the otherperson.
It just means it could alsomeans holding them accountable
and holding their feet to thefire.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
Yeah, you have to ask that question again.
So so, like I said, you know Iwant to end it on a.
I mean, I think there's no goodnote that you could end this
conversation on, and you know weare not saying this is the end
all be all conversation aboutthis.
We just wanted to get theconversation going and at least
(32:47):
start it somewhere and we wantpeople to continue in the
comments and, you know, haveconversations like this with
your friends, you're, you know,if you have kids, and just being
super hypervigilant about it.
But I wanted to just say whatis one or two things that you
usually tell your clients whoyou know say okay, this is the
(33:08):
situation I find myself in, orthey, it's happened to me before
, or or anything like that.
Just I know I don't know if youcan even boil it down to one or
two things.
No, no.
Speaker 3 (33:21):
I don't tell them anything.
I really don't but I do makethem the space that feels safe
enough that their story andtheir truth are being heard and
being noticed and they feelvalidated for their experiences,
for their own truth, becausethere have been many people
before they came to me that theytry to tell the story and there
(33:45):
has been so many people beforethey came to me where they felt
questioned, judged, shamed.
All has been filtered for them.
But my job is to always createa safe space for people and not
be judgmental in any aspect ofit.
And so I don't know for me as atherapist, as a human being, as
someone who believes in Allahand want to make sure that you
(34:07):
know that person's feeling takencare of.
I just create safe space forthem.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
Okay.
So just create safe space forpeople and and believe them.
You know, when somebody comesyou with a situation like this,
um, just give them the space tojust talk and listen, without
any bias, without you knowsaying, have you tried this,
have you done this, have youdone this?
Definitely don't solve it.
Yeah, and listen, and with thatwe'll leave you with this heavy
(34:35):
, heavy conversation.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
This has been Difficult Conversations
Assalamualaikum.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
Waalaikumsalam.
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