February 17, 2025 • 61 mins
Our discussion dives into the complexities of grieving within our community, exploring how cultural expectations shape expressions of loss and feelings of isolation. We share personal stories of bereavement and the importance of sustaining support for the long-term healing journey that follows.
• Exploring the weight of loneliness in grief
• The role of cultural practices in mourning
• Importance of checking in post-funeral
• Understanding varying expressions of grief
• The psychological impact of loss on individuals
• Practical suggestions for supporting the grieving
• Rethinking community roles in grief support
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
As-salamu alaykum, welcome to Difficult
Conversations where we tackletaboo topics in a safe space
through empowerment andeducation.
As-salamu alaykum everybody,welcome back to another amazing
episode.
So on this episode we, just asa disclaimer, we're going to be
(00:25):
talking a lot about a reallyheavy topic of bereavement and
there's just been a lot of stuffgoing on in our community a lot
of deaths amongst youth, olderpeople and we wanted to just
take some time to kind ofexplore this topic and we've
been asking around about withfamily and friends.
(00:46):
It's just been a really heavytime and a lot of people are
processing it in a lot ofdifferent ways.
I talked to one of my reallyclose friends and she had shared
with what that process ofgrieving was like for her
(01:07):
because she had lost her parentsreally young.
She lost both her parents inthe span of a six-month period
and you know when she when Iread what she had wrote me and
it was really moving and I thinkI haven't really saw grief or
(01:29):
somebody processing it in thisway and I wanted to share just
the last couple of paragraphsthat she had shared.
So she said the flood of peoplethat had taken over our home
for the past week, holding back.
All grief had to offer had allleft us behind.
The house was emptied Foreveryone else.
(01:52):
It was business as usual.
After the three-day funeralprocession they came, they paid
their respects and they left.
The weeks following my mother'sdeath we were filled with a lot
of firsts.
My uncles, who were in theirearly 20s, were suddenly parents
to two young girls and I, at 10years old, was the woman of the
(02:14):
house.
For the first time in my life.
I was responsible for thegroceries list.
For the first time in myuncle's life, he was responsible
for shopping for groceries andschool supplies and school
schedules and hiring servants.
The servants never lasted longerthan a couple weeks because
(02:37):
they were scared of living in ahouse with a bunch of boys and
two young girls.
So my uncles cooked and taughtme how to cook.
We cleaned the house togetherand we tried to survive and we
were alone, forgotten and tryingto adapt to our new reality.
So one of the things thatreally stood out to me is how
(02:58):
alone she had felt during thatwhole process of grieving after
the funeral and, I think, a lotof time.
We put a lot of emphasis onbeing there for people in the
moment, not necessarilylong-term.
So I wanted to kind of maybe goback a little bit and start off
with what is grief in ourcommunity and what that looks
(03:23):
like.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
So for me grief is some complicated concept for me
because culturally orsocietal-wise that we don't
really talk about grief in manyaspects of it, even how to and
what are the type of grief thatwe should kind of go through it
and where for me it kind ofinduces a lot of fear, anxiety
and worry and that isolationfeeling where you are the only
(03:59):
one kind of going through thatexperiences on your own, versus
kind of like collectiveexperiences that we can go
through in this um spaces, um.
So I feel like when we know thetype of grief and itself is
make us better understanding oflike how do I ask for those
supports if I am able to?
(04:22):
And if I'm not asking forsupport, how do?
How do I be there for somebodywho's grieving and what ways
that could look like?
And so for me I still strugglewith that because of the concept
itself is very ambiguous for meand I struggle.
Recently when I lost mygrandmother, I remember feeling
(04:42):
like there is level of access tothat person's kind of
discontinued and but it seemedlike, just like your friend who
shared that I hear that there'snot really a go-to formula to
kind of grieve it, so you becomeby yourself and there's not
even that type to discuss, right, and I think one of the biggest
(05:03):
reason why we're having thisconversation, like how can we be
there for each other Part ofthe discussion of like how, what
is culturally do we do, how dowe are, what are the things that
we do well and what are thingsthat we don't really do well,
itself too, and so when wediscuss what type that looks
like I'm still trying to figureout myself- yeah, and I think
(05:24):
also there's two aspects ofgrief right, like the person
that is going through it, andthen the people that are
observing and witness to thegrief.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
right and for that, for the person that is going
through it, the first thing thatwe have to validate is that
there's no like cookie cutterformula of what grief is
supposed to look like.
And for most people and somepeople that necessarily maybe,
like their body, doesn't reactthe way other people's does.
(05:57):
Right and like some people,tears are right there.
You know, for example, for me Icry watching movies, like if
it's you know, something sadhappening.
I cry If my friends are cryingnext to me.
I'm not the person thatcomforts them, I'm the person
crying next to them.
I see a person crossing thestreet.
I'm the person that cried, likeyou know.
(06:18):
Like I see someone somethinghappened to them on the street,
I'm the person that cries rightthere.
But when something like deathhappens, my body does not like I
literally have to figure out,like trying to make like I could
poke my eyes and tears won'tcome out for the first like
(06:38):
significant amount of time, andI used to feel a lot of guilt
with that Like does that meanthat I don't love the person as
much as I thought.
Does that mean that, like myouter expression of grief or my
outer expression of sadness isnot similar to what I'm seeing
around me?
People can do and I used tothink, like this outer, like
raging expression of sadness,with tears and screaming, and
(07:01):
all of that meant that you lovedthem more, right, with tears
and screaming, and all of thatmeant that you love them more,
right.
Um, and so like understandingthat everyone's body reacts to
grief differently and so likenot having shame about how you
are reacting to your grief andyour loss.
But then, in addition to thepeople that are observing and
witness to people's grief, thatknow that so-and-so lost their a
(07:24):
person, we also as a communitytend to gravitate towards that
person that has this like reallyloud and really prominent
expression of grief and likekind of trying to help them.
And then we lose and we, thosepeople that are not really that
expressive and they, you know,we think they're okay, which
sometimes it's actually theopposite, because that person
(07:47):
has an outlet Allah has giventhem.
You know, they have the abilityto express it out loud, feel it
kind of get it out of theirsystem to a certain degree,
while that person that is thatcan't find their, their pain, or
that can't find their tears, isstruggling and their that
struggle comes with.
That struggle comes withneglect and feeling like, maybe,
(08:08):
and also people's judgmentright.
So imagine, I know a wife thather husband passed away and she
couldn't cry.
The people around her werecrying and people around her,
and she was just almost in shockand she hasn't shaken off the
shock yet.
(08:28):
So there was a lot of doopie, alot of talk about why isn't she
crying, what is going on, andthere's, like you know, the
swirling of that that happens.
So I think, also as a community, as witnesses, making sure that
we're checking up on peoplethat are not really having that
outer expression that you knowthat would be.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
I think holding space for that person who is grieving
, you know, can go a long way.
And as a community I know thatyou know, traditionally we have
the three days of grieving.
The three days of grieving Oneof the things I feel like we do
(09:10):
well is that we do show up.
You know there are Afoshas orwomen's groups that you know.
Come around, they might do,they'll do all the cooking you
know they will serve.
And I didn't realize I guess Isometimes, when you're in the
culture you kind of take a lotof these things for granted.
But you know, working inhealthcare and seeing people you
(09:32):
know as a respiratory therapist, a lot of the times we're
probably the last person to kindof see that person because we
might, you know, take off thebreathing tube and stuff like
that.
So sometimes you know there'snobody there.
A lot of the times there'snobody there Unless you know
this person comes from acommunity or a background where
it's very communal, and then yousee the whole room is kind of
(09:55):
filled and stuff like that.
So, alhamdulillah, in thataspect, you know, I feel like as
a community we show up, weprovide the cooking, the
cleaning and for those threedays.
And so I think what I'm hearingyou guys say is that let's
maybe take it beyond that.
You know, check in with thisperson after the three days,
(10:18):
because, because we do it sooften and we do, we have like
funerals almost every otherweekend.
We know if somebody dies backhome and stuff like that, it can
get into a routine where you go, you pay your respects and then
you leave, you know.
And so if everybody's doingthat, then the week afterwards
and I know that you know, myfriend that had shared the story
(10:39):
with me she was saying how,like the first couple of weeks,
everybody was there, the housewas packed, but then afterwards,
one of the I vividly remember,she was saying how, like the
first couple of nights, she wassleeping in her bed and she just
felt utterly alone.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
I think I want to explain a little bit about what
Bonnie was saying earlier.
You know the emotional impactof individuals and the way that
they process at the moment andafterward.
I think we forget that griefsometimes is like not even
sometimes like a, it's like astorm right, and psychologically
, your brain it doesn't reallydigest to the shock when it
(11:21):
happened and sometimes you startfeeling things after people
leave.
Sometimes you leave it, youfeel it while you're at the
moment because your body's ableto recognize that Sometimes it
takes six months down the roadto notice that wait, this
person's not here, I can't callthem, I can't talk to them and
(11:41):
that access is really is denied,Right, and so what the body
does is that the emotions, thatis like we.
Usually the part of our brainis like, the emotion is back
here and this shuts down fromthis part of the brain where
things are able to fully processand you as death, your body
goes into the shock mode itself.
And in our community we don'tunderstand the psychological and
(12:11):
the emotional.
That grief looks differentlyfor everybody aspect of it, but
we only know one way, which iscrying and expressing in front
of everybody for them to knowyou are actually sad, right, and
that sadness has to be veryvivid in their face.
It shouldn't be looking likeinvisible.
(12:32):
That invisible aspect of it issomething that us Oromo people
or, in general, anybody, anyonewho lose loved ones is like why
is this person not crying?
Because the tears hasn'tconnected to the brain yet, the
emotion has not happened yet.
Even sometime when, like, youget into a car accident, right,
(12:54):
it takes you a long time for youto recognize that the shock
wore off.
Exactly when the shock wearsoff, then you're like, oh my
gosh, that was traumatizing.
And so even the death of,especially when we're talking
about your friend, the death ofher parent and knowing that
itself for 10 year old, imaginethe trauma physical trauma that
(13:17):
that child is going through,right, and now from being a
little girl, probably a yearprior, just enjoying little
things and kind of beingexploring herself, to not being
an adult, basically in a span ofa year, right To losing two
people.
That is the most concrete andgrounded people in her life and
within those moments.
(13:37):
And I think when we talk aboutthat it's like how can we
understand is beyond what wewere told culturally or beyond
what traditionally we've beenpracticing.
And then there's also human inthat body, right, there's
emotion in that body, and soeven the conversation of like
why this person's not crying.
The person may feel like they'renot presently hearing you, but
(14:00):
they hear what you said, butthey just don't have the
emotional energy or the capacityto talk to you about that and
how that affected you, and sothat messaging kind of goes in
the back of their head.
It's like why would thesepeople even think about that?
That's not even the thing thatis in my mind.
I just lost the two mostimportant people in my life and
my focus is basically how, whatam I going to do?
(14:23):
What is my sister going to do,Right?
What is my family going to do,Right?
Is that disconnection is thething that we should be talking
about today.
It's like the emotional concept, the emotional support, the
emotional availability that weshould be when somebody lose
Because, like you said earlier,there's a lot of people die in
our community Young people, likevery, very young people.
(14:46):
Whether it is suicide, whetherit is accident, whether it is
homicide, all of it is happeningin our community.
And then the parents are like acar accident too.
The parents like they don'teven know what to do Right and
sometime there was aconversation I think Bonnie was
talking about last week is thatthe mother has to see somebody
(15:06):
that looks similar to her son inorder for the shock to alert
her saying wait, that's my son,but it's not her son.
So basically, what I'm tryingto say is that it looks
different, and how can we beable to be there for each other
when we know that everybody'sgoing to experience it
differently?
Speaker 3 (15:26):
Yeah, and to kind of just add a little bit to that
and it's funny because I waskind of smiling when you were
talking about the other personhears you when you're saying why
aren't they crying?
I can talk about a specificincident within my life where I
just had, you know, my, my, mymom passed away too and I
(15:48):
remember hearing it and goingdown on the ground like
literally collapsing to theground and, um, then I just
covered my face and I was on theground and I remember this lady
literally coming this close tomy face and telling and saying
out loud, right, this, it'sinsane to me say coming this
(16:08):
close to me and saying let mehear what she's saying.
Like coming this close, I'm onthe ground with my face covered
and being like let me hear whatshe's saying.
So I started performing and Istarted saying things like oh
mom, why did you leave?
And cause I thought that'swhat's expected of me my body
wasn't reacting like I told youguys earlier.
(16:29):
I wasn't even having tears, Ijust was shocked so I didn't
know what to do.
So I just dropped and she wasthis close and on the ground, on
her knees with me.
Instead of comforting me, shewas trying to like get some sort
of like um material to like usefor her grief.
You know what I mean.
And I started saying thesethings and I remember like I
(16:52):
don't, this is not what I wantto say, or I feel like saying I
mean I'm sure I was.
You know all of those things.
So yeah, like the fact that yousaid they hear you.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
So is it like because I guess my reference point of
like funerals might be a littlebit different Because like, were
they expecting you to do thewhole wailing and stuff, like
that I think so, not they herspecifically, and I think also
people come to again the ideathat not that inability to
(17:28):
understand that maybe this girlis not processing, Maybe, this
girl is also, or they go to theextreme right, where they just
think you're over it already.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
You're like, you're not.
You don't understand, you don'tknow what is happening.
It already, yeah, you're likeyou, you're not.
You don't understand, you don'tknow what is happening.
While, again, like the hobby,like you said, how you know, my
brain automatically went towhat's next?
Who's going to take care of us?
What are we going to do?
There's nobody here anymore.
You know, where do we live?
All of these things.
It went into problem, intoproblem solving, yeah, but they
think I'm not even there.
Yeah, you know.
(18:01):
Or that I like, and again, Iwill, I'll.
We can go a little bit deeperinto the idea of like what is
appropriate to expose kids to.
You know, because, like I'vetalked many times, I, I, um, was
exposed to, I, I.
I still grapple with the idea,like if it was right or wrong.
(18:24):
But I remember, at age nine,people dragging me in to say
goodbye to my dad's corpse andthey're like kiss him, say, say
you forgive him, kiss him, andme kissing this person that I
love so much, being very greyand very cold, and that's
(18:46):
literally the last memory I haveof this person.
Now, so as, but then there's afinality to it, like whenever my
brain and my dreams would, Iwould go and I used to have
dreams about, like, my parentscoming back and I would always
ask them what happened.
Like I know you died because Ikissed your corpse, and goodbye,
(19:12):
so how did?
And then they obviously my brainconstructs stories, you know,
whatever.
So there's a finality that camewith that action.
Goodbye, so how?
And then they obviously mybrain constructs stories.
You know us, whatever.
And so there's a finality thatcame with that action.
But there's a lot of traumathat came with it too, because I
still feel their skin on mylips.
Yeah, I still see the color oftheir skin, you know.
And also you know, with us,with our community, you get
(19:33):
washed and all, and so the coldmight not even be their skin, it
might be the cold water their,their body was washed through,
you know, so like.
But then there's this and wasthat appropriate for a
nine-year-old in it?
you know, and so on and so forth, um to be able to, to have that
, um experience.
So, again, like, my point iseither we go too extreme this
(19:57):
way where we're literally justexpecting them to wail, or we go
extreme this way where we'relike, oh, they're not going to
feel it, they're not going toremember, but they need to do
this, and we make them do thingsthat she needs to do.
Right.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
And the mindset of like you are doing the things
that they want you to do, versushow is she like?
How are you doing?
Yeah, and in a sense, like one,like one of yeah it's like.
So that's what I'm saying.
There's like so much ofdisconnection in our community
when it comes to grieving, towhere performing is part of it
(20:49):
right, not the emotional supportof regulation.
That happens where the personfeels seen and heard, and I
think I get why people, anybody,who lose loved ones, especially
people who are like kids wholose a loved one they early on
experience the loneliness, thedepth loneliness that they
(21:09):
constantly search for people tosee them, understand them.
I think it started from thatexperiences because when they
were trying to understand theworld, with the most dramatic
timing people are telling themto do where they are so
disconnected from the mindset ofsaying let me comfort this
person so they don't have tofeel anything, and said let's do
(21:31):
the things that weretraditionally taught to us.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
And I think, even like going back to traditions
and stuff like that is, I feellike we're almost stuck between
like two extremes, right, likelike growing up I always heard
like, oh, don't like at funerals, don't wail and don't do this,
because that's such an amarathing to do.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
I don't know, I don't know if you guys heard that
sentiment.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Yeah because at the other end you have you know the
Islamic aspect of it, right?
Please, you know, have sabr,have patience.
You know, try to go throughthis.
You know the most, the hardestthing in your life, with the
thought that you know you willsee this person again in the
akhirah right.
And it's not the fact that theyhave passed away.
(22:17):
This is not a finite thing, youknow.
It kind of um brings that wholething back together.
So I feel like, as a community,we're we're kind of we're not
talking about it, but we'restuck in between these two ideas
.
And how do we create thatbalance?
Speaker 3 (22:35):
yeah, no, and also you know, I, I, I want to
definitely talk about theislamic perspective of you know,
people saying like, have sabrand have patience, and also
taking that too far, yeah,having a very unrealistic
expectation of those that aregrieving you know, and I, you
know, I talked to you guys aboutthe story of this mom that just
(22:58):
lost her kid and I literally,was standing right next to her
and she saw someone that shelooked like her child and then
she started breaking down.
She wasn't wailing or anything,it was just streams of tears and
she was just saying, oh, that'show he looks like, but it's not
jumping on her, yeah, and thenthey were like Allah's gonna,
(23:20):
allah's gonna be mad at you andAllah's not human.
Yeah, allah knows more aboutwhat she's going through than
you are, or even she does, yeah.
Allah is the most understandingbeing on the universe, so how
can you?
Speaker 1 (23:33):
put your limitations, yeah, and you.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
It's just, it's so disgusting and I and like, in
the same funeral, they there wasthe daughter and, um, she
wasn't expressing emotions.
Okay, she wasn't expressingemotion.
And uh, basically they theywere telling her to comfort,
(23:58):
comfort her mother and tell herto stop crying, and tell her to,
like, get in control.
And I was like, I literally wasconfused to what universe I
just entered, because they'relike is it now this
17-year-old's responsibility tonavigate her mom's emotions of
losing a child and get her incontrol?
(24:21):
How does that make sense?
But it was very, very annoyingand very disgusting, because I
think in our community we dohave rahmah, we do care about
our people, we do want the bestfor… and the reason those people
were saying those things wasfor her yeah, you know, because
they they have this real,genuine belief that Allah's
(24:41):
gonna, like smite her orsomething you know and yeah, um,
so I understand it comes from agood place, but sometimes it's
not.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
It's misplaced, yeah but, I wonder why, okay, to that
, I want to bring something.
I was like, why do?
Why is it so hard for us as acommunity to sit with discomfort
, the emotional discomfort thatwe don't know?
Because for me, that jumping tothe mom to telling her is their
own discomfort, yeah, right, soit's like because they feel
uncomfortable that she's doingthat.
(25:11):
So they want to like reduce it.
Yeah, right, it's like okay,okay, okay, you're done, you're
done, you're done.
Crying like so I'm okay.
It's more about like how I'mfeeling, yeah, than how the
person's feeling, but I don'teven think they recognize that.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
I think they don't yeah for her.
Yeah or for the they think theyare.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
They think they are so part of it.
I'm curious for you guys, likeas we were talking about this
conversation of like, when itcomes to grief.
Grief is a lot of likeemotional reloc, right, you feel
sad, you feel angry, you feelaccepting and then all of a
sudden you're going to cry againand you go through all this
emotional elevation anddifferent flows that your body
is able to understand.
But when a person is grieving,why can we just sit with them in
(25:51):
silence?
They can cry and just say youknow, you're doing great.
You're doing great that you'recrying.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
I don't think we have those tools yet.
Yeah, you know I I don't thinkwe've developed I'm trying
because, like even me, likeforget about a grief of a, like
a loved one.
At my big age, I'm stillgrappling with emotions that my
children show me Okay.
You know what I mean, like yeahit's like a lot of you know
(26:24):
working through your own issuesfirst before you can recognize
oh, this person needs me to dothis and just sit there in
silence.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
It's uncomfortable, but that's what I'm saying,
right, like when we are jumpingon somebody.
For me, when I hear and seethat right, and that tells me,
it's like, okay, yes, you haveyour own discomfort around
grieving and sadness and emotionin general, but how do we get
there?
Because the funerals are goingto keep happening and this
(26:56):
behavior is going to continue,traumatizing individuals who
need to work through this right.
But what can we do in themeantime, noticing that
everybody's grief looksdifferent, everybody's sadness
looks different, and it's not myjob to tell them how to grieve.
It's not my job to tell themthey need to be patient
Islamically, because ProphetMuhammad cried every time.
(27:16):
It's not my job to tell themlike they need to be patient
islamically, because prophetmuhammad cried every time.
When he went to see hismother's grave, he cried yeah,
when he was, when he lostkhadijah, he cried like he
didn't say don't cry, and he wasstill sad he's still sad
exactly, and he like islamicallywe can express emotions, we we
can talk about emotion, livewith emotion.
(27:38):
But I feel like we kind of takethe Islam aspect and use a
little bit of culturalunderstanding that is misguided
from Islam.
Right, they got it from themisguided understanding of what
Islam is and then they try toapply that at funeral.
It's one dimensional.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Yeah, I think it's taking the humanness out of it
and it's like applying what iscomfortable.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
yeah, not necessarily the holistic view of grief, and
yes, and so that's why we'rehere in this conversation by
saying like, okay, how can wehave a grief for the individuals
who's going through it and whatwill be the most appropriate
way?
Because earlier I'm sure youmentioned about balance.
Right, in a normal community,what would that balance look
like, right In this moment thatwe're talking about grief?
Speaker 3 (28:24):
Yeah, I think, first of all, being realistic and
logical.
Right, it's not always aboutemotions, in the sense that you
don't always just have to cometo cry, and there's this aspect
again.
I always want to go back tothis performative piece where
they want to go and they wantthe person that's grieving to
(28:45):
see them, so that, hey, justregister that I came to your
funeral, you know, and it shouldcome from the space of like,
okay, if I'm coming, I shouldcome with the purpose, right,
the first three days, the firstweek, alhamdulillah, we're
really good about you know,actually rewind.
Some of us are really good aboutlike coming with food and being
(29:07):
there to serve and to help,instead of to be catered to
Other of us, to be catered toOther of us and I've also been
in my very, very young life.
I feel like I have a lot offuneral experiences and I've
seen where people that come tocomfort the family and then they
(29:30):
end up acting like they're at afive-star restaurant and
ordering things and ordering thepeople that just lost somebody
to go.
Oh, can you please get me some?
Can you get me that water?
This hulbata doesn't taste verygood.
Can I get the ruzas?
So?
Speaker 1 (29:43):
when did we make it into a catering thing?
I want to know because, likenot, like I have friends that
are like not Oromo and you knowstill Muslim, east African and
stuff.
They don't do the whole likecooking and, like you know,
serving and the whole cateringthing.
When?
Speaker 3 (29:59):
did that happen?
I don't know, but I know thatthe Ethiopian Habesha community
does that too.
Okay, but the difference istheir, their Afosha, their, you
know not even if for again, oh,I have so much to say about this
their afosha or their neighbors, their community takes care of
the cooking, literally.
(30:20):
One thing, you know, I really,really I think that's similar
for us too.
Yeah, but one I appreciateabout the Habesha community's
funeral, and my parents diedback home.
So I kind of it was kind of likethat when the person's grieving
, they don't have to get up fromthat space that they're in,
they sit there and everyone elsetakes care of their guests for
(30:42):
them, and everyone else makessure that they're eating,
they're drinking for that three,four days time, and while you
know, there's this gray tentthat they used to put up and
like.
Well, until the gray tent isthere by the fourth day, they
pack up the gray tent, wash thedishes, clean the house and
leave.
That's also a problem, right,but I feel like within our
(31:03):
community there's not a lot ofthat.
There is that aspect of thehalf was just doing that, these
things for you.
But if someone doesn't have anahosha, they're screwed.
Yeah, if someone doesn't have acommunity like a support, a
support system, they're screwed.
I so I sure you guys saw thevideo.
I said y'all, like you know, ifsomeone is an introvert and
(31:24):
that doesn't have a bigcommunity like me, we're screwed
like a big community like me.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
We're screwed like okay, well, give context then of
the video oh, so there's thislady on tiktok.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
She said um instagram , is it instagram?
And she said uh, she, if youhad six people to who?
are the six people that wouldcarry your casket, and I sent
the video to my husband becausefor her she's.
There was this guy, I thinkit's like in New York.
He's like carrying a casketdown the street and the casket
(31:59):
is doing and I, so I, Igenuinely think, like not
genuinely, but like I, I makethis joke because my, my circle
is very tight, I don't have alot of like buzz around me.
So I tell my husband like youbetter start lifting weights,
buddy.
Like I might just be you so,but all that is unjust.
(32:22):
But in reality it's almost likea popularity contest too, you
know, because people only do forthose that have done for them
to a certain degree and insteadof that, like you know being,
when you show up, come with foodin those times.
You know, maybe the week afteryou know, go with food to.
(32:44):
You know, maybe that person isnot emotionally there to be able
to cook for her kids or for forher, you know, his kids, if
it's the wife that died, or, youknow, for the mom or whatever,
like, go with food, go and likeand just sit there with them.
Sit there, you know this.
There is this lady.
Actually she went with um, amate, so she hired a cleaning
(33:06):
service lady but she dressed herlike normal, you know, like uh,
and she said, oh, this is myfriend, she wanted to come too
and she, while they were there,they just sussed out the house
just to make sure, like, hey, dothey need?
Speaker 1 (33:19):
help or not?
Speaker 3 (33:19):
And then she went and she said okay, can do, you mind
if we just help clean up alittle bit?
And they, these two are closeenough for this.
The the person grieving to letthat happen, right?
so and then she was like okay,get, good, get to it and that
lady left the house clean andI'm sure you know they she does
she didn't feel bad because thislady hired someone else to do
(33:40):
this thing for her.
She thought it was her frienddoing it for her.
You know what I mean.
So, like being thoughtful andbeing going a week later maybe
you know the two weeks laterwith food so that they have food
to eat for the next couple ofweeks.
Having helping clean, helpingdo laundry, like I love, and
then that's also a thing that Ireally really appreciate are
these?
(34:01):
they come and they're like, oh,you know, casserole or whatever
it is, so you don't leave it atyour door because the idea of
like, maybe this person doesn'twant to see me yeah, they don't
have the the bandwidth to beable to um to deal with, like
socializing having like puttingthat social persona up, so let
me just leave it at the doorgive them a text, you know, if
(34:24):
they want to, so that they canpick it up and being that.
But then to a certain degree.
I don't mean to rag on ourcommunity, but to a certain
degree some people they're likeoh you know or like oh you know
there is rahmat.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Sometimes it's also lacking, yeah yeah, so I'm
hearing, I'm hearing a couple ofthings, couple of things.
So so I want to say you asked aquestion before I can add on
what Bonnie was saying.
Is that well, I think for me,as someone from hotter is that
hotter gay?
Specifically, we always hadfood being made, even regardless
(35:06):
, as a community, I think thebiggest thing that we I love
about our community is that wecollectively show up.
We show up.
That's what we do.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Some balance.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
Yes, right To the ripping of body, no no, no, I'll
get to what she said too.
Hold on, we show up, y'all, Ilove y'all, please don't kill me
.
We show up and then we bringfood and we keep company, and I
think we do it as formality,right, and I think formality is
traditionally kind of keeppassing down, and part of us
(35:37):
having this conversation is that, yes, what our parents and our
generation before that has doneis great.
We love the collectiveness thatwe had and how we continue to
do that.
We're saying and right, we'renot saying but, but we're saying
and what else can we do?
Right?
And part of it is like, yes,formally, show up, yeah Right.
But we are also saying Don'tstop only at the three days,
(35:58):
yeah Right.
Or the week, or the week or themonth or the year, saying if
there are six people saying useone weekend, use the other
weekend, use the other weekend,kind of delegate that and
diversify the support system.
And I think that's the newversion that we could do Right.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
And I think as part of the balance that we were
talking about earlier, and Ithink, as like people from
diaspora, we have that privilegeright to kind of pick and
choose and say this is what theydid well, this is what we can
improve on, and to kind of workin this framework of what is a
new way of dealing with funerals, not so much saying all of it
(36:39):
is bad or all of it is good.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
Yeah, yeah.
And I think also, just to addup to that, is that especially
if you're friends or like closewith this person, that just
don't think because all of asudden they're functioning like
a normal person, that they'regotten back to their normality
because, they will never go backto that normality.
And then, also, understandingthat, one thing I'll tell you
(37:01):
guys I had this friend that knewabout my mom and so on and so
forth, mom and so on and soforth and um and tiff.
Later on, my best friend, every, every mother's day, they would
call me and have a conversationwith me and I would just I, I
paid attention later on andsomehow, like they it was, I
(37:24):
always got to get a call.
Like you know, we always talked, but then that day was very
consistent they would miss mybirthdays.
To be honest, sometimes like butthen they never missed mother's
days and they and it's sointeresting and then later on,
when we got to talking and I waslike, did you guys know like
you always?
And they're like why do youthink we did that like?
Why do you think we had youknow like, and being that
(37:46):
thoughtful of like, hey, youknow, you know this day might be
so painful and hard for thatperson.
You know for, or like thebirthday of the person that died
or the you know even theanniversary of the person that
died Having or like Mother's Dayand Father's Day, or like
Valentine's Day for those thatlike lost.
I know we don't celebrate that,but like the world does, that's
(38:07):
when you see it so much right.
The happiness is out there andgratitude is out there.
So even though they don'tcelebrate it, they see it.
That's a trigger yeah so beingable to be like, hey, how are
you doing?
And you don't have to bring up,like I said, I didn't even know
, I didn't put two and twotogether until like a couple of
times later where, um, you don'thave to talk about the person
(38:28):
that's gone, but just havingthat person, someone to talk,
just being there talking to themabout anything, you know, just
occupying that one hour, that 30minutes, that 45 minutes that
they don't have to talk.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
Think about the person that's gone it's like
rewiring the brain to understandthat the support system is
there, because I think the braincan sometimes like tell you how
lonely you are by kind ofmagnifying all the evidence
reason why you're lonely.
And I think when people areconsistently showing up you can
say like, oh, I know Tiffshowing up for me, I know this
(39:01):
person is showing up for me.
I see that person's callingright.
So the brain is going to startlessening as you go through the
part of the grief process thatI'm not really alone in this
part because, yes, I'm still theone that's dealing with this I
still have support system.
Anything part of us talkingabout the discomfort of
emotional grief that we dealwith in our community.
(39:22):
It's kind of like going back tothe balance of routine checking
, right to balance of equality,like how can we be able to be
equally support one anotherwhere the person doesn't feel so
much?
Speaker 1 (39:34):
all that is on their shoulder and the other thing is,
I think, just providing, likeinviting them out yeah, it's a
big one, it kind of gets themout of their routine too.
Yeah, and include them in, yeah,yeah because I think I was
reading this book over theweekend and something about
grief.
I can't remember the titleright now, but it was saying how
(39:57):
, like, sometimes there's awhole loop that happens, right,
people don't invite you out, andthen it kind of goes back to
saying you kind of reinforce theidea that I'm lonely and it
just circles.
To reinforce the idea that I'mlonely and it just circles, and
so, as a friend or somebody youknow that is in the circle for
this person is to kind of breakthat chain and kind of invite
(40:18):
them out.
They might say no the firstcouple of times but keep doing
it until they, you know come ontheir circle.
Speaker 3 (40:21):
And just to add to things both of you guys were
saying about the brain and thenthe personality change.
You know, grief changesfundamentally the person's inner
working inside their brain andthen also that obviously impacts
their personality right so whenthe way we process as a, the
way we process um, emotions, webecome almost nerve endings to a
(40:46):
certain degree, uh and uh thatcauses maybe, maybe the person
will that used to be very zenand calm and like normal, like
you know, has a normal temper.
Temper uh might all of thesudden be easily irritable or
might be someone that is has ashort fuse or whatever you know
(41:08):
secluded.
Someone that might be a socialbutterfly might turn into a
recluse.
Someone that is has a shortfuse or whatever you know
secluded.
Someone that might be a socialbutterfly might turn into a
recluse someone that was arecluse might turn into a social
butterfly.
Because what I like to say isthat, um, I, I always have all
of that is a coping skill.
It's a coping skill right.
And also for for those peoplelike sometimes there is
(41:29):
self-medication that happenswith that, because I used to
always say it feels like there'stwo craters in my body, in my
soul, that I hear the echo of itRight Whenever I'm by myself.
I used to echo go places and dothings with people to not hear
(41:49):
that echo of these big, hugecraters that are vacuum of right
that vacuum that's there.
So people would used to be likeoh, how come you're always
hanging out with people?
Oh my god, you're a socialbutterfly.
Oh my god, you have 10 000friends.
If you ask those 10 000 peopleif they really knew me at a
(42:09):
certain point, they didn't.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
Yeah you know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (42:12):
They only knew the surface, they only knew the
bubbly, you know, like whatever.
So being able to like, okay,maybe this is how this person's
processing things maybe this ishow this person is processing
things the change in personality.
Being gracious and mercifulenough to be under to understand
, this person just went through,like you said, the habit.
They just lost access to them,one of the most important people
(42:33):
in their life or someone thathad a very big impact in their
life.
Of course it's gonna have aripple effect in their
personality.
Of course that's gonna create adistress.
You know, I was talking to youguys yesterday actually I wasn't
, I wasn't gonna address this,but you idea, like my parents
died out of like literally in aspan of like this right, and
(42:55):
they weren't sick for a verylong time.
It wasn't something that'sexpected.
It was quick and fast and cameand gone.
So that created a veryuncertain uncertainty if people
are going to stay alive, for meuncertainty if people are going
(43:15):
to stay alive.
For me so, while I was, you know, because I knew we were doing
this I had done a lot of talkingand processing some you know
this, this situation the lastcouple of weeks, and it
triggered within me this fearand anxiety about my children
dying, my husband dying.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
So I was staying up at night to kind of going
checking my kids breathing dude,did I just pick up on your
anxiety, because last night, inthe last two nights, I'm not
sleeping either.
Speaker 3 (43:44):
No, seriously, I literally was just like, and I I
was like walking around thehouse making sure the windows
are closed, the door is closed,and making sure like my kids are
breathing, making sure thatthey're like and you know, just
being extremely and like the wayI was driving and just making
(44:04):
sure, like all of that, and Ididn't realize why, all of a
sudden, this thing I had putaway, that I felt like I haven't
experienced in a long time.
Speaker 2 (44:13):
Anxiety death is real .
Speaker 3 (44:14):
Yes, it's real.
So with coming back and Irealized it started happening
after, we were having thisconversation.
We were talking about thisconversation and it happened
because, of course, therapy,therapy, therapy, you know, and
that breakthrough.
I love that, yeah.
So I just like there's thatfear of like you might not want
to start having friendshipsanymore because you don't know
if you create these newconnections and what if they
(44:36):
walk out and they get killed.
Speaker 2 (44:36):
It's very debilitating.
It's so debilitating that itmakes that your whole nerve
system to shut down with so muchof danger and fear.
Because your mind understandslike I don't want to invest any
more emotional work with people.
What if I again lose thisperson?
Because I think here's mytrauma with death.
(44:57):
Right, I remember when I thinkI was probably 17 or 18.
This is the reason why I don'tlike to answer my phone while
I'm sleeping.
When my great aunt passed away,I picked up the phone and my
dad told me while I was sleepingthat she passed away and from
back home, from back home, okay.
And then I said I was sleepingand then I gave my phone to my
(45:22):
sister and then I was just kindof like sitting up against the
wall processing what justhappened and what I just heard.
And this is one of my favoritegreat hands, and so to this day,
I don't like a phone call fromback home.
I don't have a really comfortwith that.
The first thing I said iseverything okay.
Is everything okay?
Because my reaction is like I'mgoing to hear a bad news.
(45:43):
I'm going to hear a bad news.
I'm going to hear a bad news,yeah, even during the day, like
when my sister calls me.
My sister knows now she saidAssalamualaikum first and then
she calls Right, so I know it'ssafe to answer the phone
physically.
Because even as I'm talkingabout this experiences right now
, the gut wrenching of what thatnight felt like for me is still
(46:04):
presently there and I thinkeven the conversation we might
be collectively going throughthis the last two nights I'm
getting up in the middle of thenight having this gut anxiety
feeling where I'm like okay, sothere's this thing in an EMDR
that you do is kind of like youfind a box and you put
(46:27):
information there until you'reready to deal with it.
So I use that as an EMDRtherapist.
I use that to kind of go backto sleep because I did my duas,
I talked to Allah, but at thesame time the the like tossing
and turning with anxiety was sopresent that I was like, okay,
this is the things that I needto put it away and then I can
talk about it in the morning orI can deal with it later because
I need to sleep.
So when, bonnie, you weretalking about your anxiety
(46:48):
around death for your kids Idon't know, maybe it's this
conversation itself is so likeheavy for all of us because we
selectively lost family membersin some aspect of it and it's
relatable and I don't think it'slike.
This is what we talked aboutearlier when we said like it
doesn't end just the time thepassed that person passed away.
(47:10):
It continues to with you forthe rest of your life.
It changes you how you interactwith people.
It changes you how you makeconnection.
It changes you how you buildrelationship.
It changes you because you'relike what, if you leave too,
like the abandonment is sosignificant that it really like
physically debilitates you.
Speaker 3 (47:30):
yeah, so I just want to name that, yeah, and I, I
want to just like add to that,like you know, sometimes it's
not even, it's not even likeanything that is related to that
right, like, and sometimes,like I you know, now my husband
knows um, if he's out and hecan't answer his phone, he has
to text me.
I can't answer my phone, likeI'm okay, I just can't answer my
(47:51):
phone, it's okay because mybrain doesn't go.
Oh, he's ignoring me and itgoes, he's dead, like that's
literally where my brain goeslike if.
um, so yeah, like if my, if Idon't talk to my, my sibling,
and they don't answer, like if Idon't get a response, and that
used to come off very clingy.
Speaker 1 (48:14):
And like controlling yeah.
Speaker 3 (48:15):
Controlling yeah Because I used to get really
upset when someone doesn'trespond back and not like
respond answer.
Just let me know you're okay.
Speaker 2 (48:24):
But I never used to have.
Speaker 3 (48:25):
That's anxiety though , exactly, but I never used to
have the, the language toexpress why I was feeling the
way I was feeling.
So people used to think I justlike was controlling and like is
very clean.
So what are?
What are like?
Speaker 1 (48:37):
some resources then, Cause I think we have to wrap up
as well.
But what are the resources?
Cause these are like superheavy, you know, labor intensive
, um, emotions around grief andabandonment and stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (48:53):
I think, before we jump into resources, I want her
to finish her thought, becauseshe was just talking about how
that effect is being worryingabout other people when she's
like anxious about theirexistence.
Speaker 3 (49:03):
No, I, yeah, I mean it's.
It's just the fact that, likewe see and like you know, people
will label certain thingsbecause they don't understand
certain things.
I know that one being able tobe honest about like, why, like
you have to ask why, because,almost if you lost someone
(49:24):
important in your life, there'sa lot of a big chance most of
your personality traits can goback to you know what I mean,
can go back.
You can trace that like oh, whydid this shift?
I used to be like this and nowI'm like this, and you can trace
that to that loss because howdid you receive it, how, how was
(49:45):
it told to you?
Oh, how close was this person?
How did that happen?
Was it fast, was it slow?
Or, you know, was it somethingthat was really disruptive?
All of these things.
So it creates a personality andeven like I used to call them
defects I'm told not to callthem that Like these spaces and
(50:05):
these vacancies in yourpersonality, that's that kind of
other people might be able tolabel something else.
Like I said, my friends used tothink that I was clingy, or my
you know like and I used orbossy, because I did it and I
had to explain.
Once I figured it out, I had toexplain hey, I really just want
to know you're okay.
(50:25):
Can you just let me know youdon't?
We don't have to talk, just say, hey, I can't talk right now,
but I'm okay and I'm good thoseare valid requests, though.
Speaker 2 (50:33):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (50:34):
Yeah and I'm good, or saying like, uh, the idea, the
feeling of, um, sometimes beingnot enough also could go back to
that, because sometimes thepeople you feel like how come
all this death is happeningaround me?
Yeah, you know, how comeeveryone that I?
Speaker 2 (50:55):
love seems to go.
Speaker 3 (50:57):
You know, and like I'm here, survival's guilt is
real, like, oh, if this personwas here, maybe they will be
able to figure this situationout and maybe able to help these
people out more than I do, andyou know, and like I can you.
So, anyway, long story short,making sure that you understand
this grief within our community.
We understand that griefdoesn't show up one way.
(51:20):
Yeah, the personality and brainchemistry of people that are
grieving really gets alteredaltered for a lifetime, not time
doesn't heal shit if you don'twork on it yeah you know what I
mean.
If you don't, go to therapy ifyou don't investigate, if you
don't take your medicine,meaning, like you know, like and
and it's time is not going todo it yeah yeah, it's just going
(51:42):
to bury it and it's going tofester, it's going to show up in
different ways, yeah, and then,lastly, I think, also making
sure that you have one.
You have a really strongconnection with allah, because,
god, that allah is a real thing,it helps in so many ways, but
then, at the same time, notguilting people because they
(52:03):
haven't gotten there yet,because that ruins their
relationship with allah, becauseand you don't want to be
responsible for that you don'twant to be responsible why
someone turned away from Allahbecause you talked your nonsense
and got in between thatrelationship.
So that's all I think I wouldlike to say is that there's so
many different aspects of life.
(52:24):
Grief hits All of it.
Speaker 2 (52:27):
Yeah, I think that's important.
I think some of the the let'stalk about the do's and don'ts
that we should be doing atfunerals, right and before and
after, including what bonnie wassaying is that during the
funeral, one of the things thatis do is like offer the duas and
support the people and bepresently there.
Whether, however, you're goingto be showing up and don't mind
(52:49):
for me, don't go down.
Speaker 3 (52:51):
Really, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I keep going.
Speaker 2 (52:55):
We're talking about like etiquette of how we can
show up at funerals, gossiping,right, judging the way that a
person is grieving, and thenbeing able to kind of like
putting the pressure on thegriever, the person, to explain
what happened.
Yes, and also it's like andthen put in responsibility to
(53:17):
serve you, and that's a don't,like a big don't, and also do is
continue to support afterward.
Yeah, right, so that's some ofthe things that we kind of need
to balance and do in order forus to kind of manage those
expectations as a communitymoving forward.
And I think part of it is likealso some of the things that we
said earlier is like, as thediasporas, oromos, or people who
(53:39):
live in the West, we can takeour tradition and add a new way
to it, so that way that, like,we can kind of get rid of
certain things.
Speaker 3 (53:47):
So that balance itself is yeah, and I also.
It just came to me right nowthat, like we can kind of get
rid of certain things.
So that balance itself is yeah,and I also.
I just came to me right nowfunerals, yes, you can be
introspective and grateful thatthis thing is not happening to
you, but the funeral and thetazia space is not the place to
reflect that or to speak aboutthat oh I can never imagine if
this happened to me.
yeah, yeah, yeah, I can't.
(54:08):
Or like I literally wallahi wabillahi.
I remember a mom hugging herdaughter and saying I don't know
what I would do.
I don't know what I would do ifthis happened to me?
Speaker 2 (54:20):
Yeah, it's been really intensive.
I'm like, are you?
Speaker 1 (54:21):
kidding, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (54:23):
But they don't realize.
They don't realize.
People hear, they think they'reso quiet, even though they're
speaking in octaves, that theuniverse could hear yeah, yeah,
I don't.
Speaker 1 (54:32):
Yeah, I think it's just a reflect what they haven't
processed either.
Speaker 2 (54:37):
I think, hopefully, right, this conversation can be
a highlight to people, right,like we are, our stories and
Bonnie's stories and the storiesthat you shared is something
that would resonate to peoplesaying you know what?
I know there are certain thingsthat I don't like about the way
we do it, but we can improve it, right?
I think this is why we'rehaving this conversation is to
highlight saying, hey, we needto do better and we do something
(55:00):
really good, but we also needto do better.
Hey, we need to do better andwe do something really good, but
we also need to do better.
And so, to kind of going backto what you were saying earlier,
is that, resource-wise, thatpart of it?
I think we already mentioned alot of the resources is how can
we show up for one another andwhat do you think, based on our
community, the best resources oreven the nuanced resources that
we should be having in ourcommunity?
Speaker 1 (55:21):
I think the masjids honestly, even the nuanced
resources that we should behaving in our community, I think
the masjids, honestly, I thinkthat they can play a bigger role
in helping people process griefand stuff like that, rather
than just being a place wherethe funeral is held yeah, or
being a place where you know thefamily of the grieved or
whatever pays the masjids andyou know they stay the three
(55:41):
days there of the grieved orwhatever pays the masjids and
you know they stay the threedays there, because a lot of
times it even puts a bad tastein the people who are masjid
goers for the people having thefuneral there, because they
leave, you know, food everywhereand it's like it's unclean and
all that stuff.
But I think the masjids need todo a better job and step up and
provide counseling.
(56:03):
You know grief counselingprovide.
You know so many resources thatour community lacks because
fundamentally the masjid has tobe that focal point of the
community and do more.
Speaker 2 (56:15):
Right, yeah, and the other resources that I would add
is that, like always, I willsay if you're able to, if you
can.
I think grief counseling isalways the right thing to go
about when you're experiencingit and saying, like you know, I
don't have a space in mycommunity or in my social
environment that I can grievethis, but I don't understand
(56:36):
what's happening to me becauseI'm not grieving the ways I'm
expected to grieve.
Speaker 1 (56:41):
But I think, if we're trying to target our community
specifically, I think that themasjid is probably the best
place to do grief counseling andtarget those people.
It is, but a lot of people arenot at the masjid, but they will
never go to seek these thingsout on their own, but the youth
are not at the masjid, can Ialso just add.
(57:02):
But our funerals are not own,but the youth are not at the
mosque, can I also just add.
But our funerals are not reallyrun by the youth, though.
Speaker 2 (57:08):
It is, that's true, but who are we trying to engage?
Speaker 1 (57:11):
in these experiences.
I understand that.
But I'm saying, if we're tryingto change how we do things as a
community, I think that that'sone place that Is kind of a
springboard.
Speaker 3 (57:21):
It doesn't have to be the only place and I think we
also have to understand thatOromo people.
There's like having an Oromocommunity center and having a
grief counselor there or someonethat is centered there that
would be able to help the Oromocommunity, either Muslim,
christian, In their language.
Speaker 1 (57:39):
In their language.
Speaker 3 (57:41):
And then also having.
So I guess what I'm trying tosay is that you both are right
Having being able to havesomeone that is in the masjid
and that is also having to behonest, having our sheikhs go
through grief counseling likecertifications or something, so
that they're able to have thesecular understanding and
secular ways of like you knowgiving therapy, not therapy, but
(58:03):
even advice.
Speaker 1 (58:04):
So Islamic advice because the reason why I say
that is because, like on Friday,I went to um Jummah at one of
our masjids and the topic thatwas talked about like it had no,
like I was like how does thisrelate to me?
You, what I mean as somebodygoing to the masjid having my
own issues and blah, blah, blah.
(58:25):
It's completely disconnected.
You know what I mean, and so Ithink they— Wait, what was
being—was there a funeralhappening there?
Speaker 3 (58:34):
Is that what they were talking about it?
Speaker 1 (58:35):
was, but it's not like—I can't even remember the
topic of what it was because Ijust completely checked out.
You know what I mean, becausewe have so many like.
We have grief going on, we havedeaths in our community, we
have drug use, we have suicideand all this stuff, but it's not
being talked about.
On the member.
Speaker 3 (58:55):
And you know what it is.
Actually, when I went to themasjid I think it was on Friday,
not this Friday, but notprobably they were talking about
how the sheikh was talkingabout how he feels like it's
whack-a-mole time, so like theyonly get members at that space
and at that time so they want tobe able to address like so many
(59:21):
things that sometimes maybethey're addressing that thing
that's in the forefront of theirmind and then that thing might
not be something that relates toyou specifically, or anybody,
oh yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (59:32):
So I mean I do want to kind of yes, you're right, we
need it all.
We need more and I think wecontinue to.
We'll have this conversationwhere we can kind of provide
more resources and supportsystem.
Yeah, but I do want to justkind of do a recap of today's
show and that grief.
Again, it takes a lot ofemphasis and empathy and patient
(59:53):
and balance and kind ofproviding that and being able to
understand that every singlegrief is personal.
To understand that every singlegrief is personal.
Respecting the Islamicprinciples is also another
aspect of going through that andunderstanding that there is
nuance to ways that other peoplemay grieve, and so part of it
(01:00:13):
that we just want to encourageour audience to hopefully this
is a conversation that needs tocontinue having, but for them to
just kind of have a place to beseen and heard and understood a
little bit, and so we just wantto invite our listeners to
think about different ways thatthey also approach grief and how
they grieve themselves and waysthat it worked for them in the
(01:00:35):
past, and that is something thatwe can continue to share and
how to change you know what areways that our community can
improve, because there are somany things that we probably
haven't thought about.
Speaker 1 (01:00:46):
You know creative ways that we can implement yeah,
absolutely so thank you so much, everyone.
Speaker 3 (01:00:53):
This has been difficult conversation.
Speaker 1 (01:00:56):
Join the conversation in the comment section or on
our instagram page to share withus what you think.
We do not have all the answersand our biggest goal is to kick
off and get the conversationgoing.
May Allah accept our effortsand use us as catalysts for
change.
As-salamu alaykum, welcome to Difficult
Conversations where we tackletaboo topics in a safe space
through empowerment andeducation.
As-salamu alaykum everybody,welcome back to another amazing
episode.
So on this episode we, just asa disclaimer, we're going to be
(00:25):
talking a lot about a reallyheavy topic of bereavement and
there's just been a lot of stuffgoing on in our community a lot
of deaths amongst youth, olderpeople and we wanted to just
take some time to kind ofexplore this topic and we've
been asking around about withfamily and friends.
(00:46):
It's just been a really heavytime and a lot of people are
processing it in a lot ofdifferent ways.
I talked to one of my reallyclose friends and she had shared
with what that process ofgrieving was like for her
(01:07):
because she had lost her parentsreally young.
She lost both her parents inthe span of a six-month period
and you know when she when Iread what she had wrote me and
it was really moving and I thinkI haven't really saw grief or
(01:29):
somebody processing it in thisway and I wanted to share just
the last couple of paragraphsthat she had shared.
So she said the flood of peoplethat had taken over our home
for the past week, holding back.
All grief had to offer had allleft us behind.
The house was emptied Foreveryone else.
(01:52):
It was business as usual.
After the three-day funeralprocession they came, they paid
their respects and they left.
The weeks following my mother'sdeath we were filled with a lot
of firsts.
My uncles, who were in theirearly 20s, were suddenly parents
to two young girls and I, at 10years old, was the woman of the
(02:14):
house.
For the first time in my life.
I was responsible for thegroceries list.
For the first time in myuncle's life, he was responsible
for shopping for groceries andschool supplies and school
schedules and hiring servants.
The servants never lasted longerthan a couple weeks because
(02:37):
they were scared of living in ahouse with a bunch of boys and
two young girls.
So my uncles cooked and taughtme how to cook.
We cleaned the house togetherand we tried to survive and we
were alone, forgotten and tryingto adapt to our new reality.
So one of the things thatreally stood out to me is how
(02:58):
alone she had felt during thatwhole process of grieving after
the funeral and, I think, a lotof time.
We put a lot of emphasis onbeing there for people in the
moment, not necessarilylong-term.
So I wanted to kind of maybe goback a little bit and start off
with what is grief in ourcommunity and what that looks
(03:23):
like.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
So for me grief is some complicated concept for me
because culturally orsocietal-wise that we don't
really talk about grief in manyaspects of it, even how to and
what are the type of grief thatwe should kind of go through it
and where for me it kind ofinduces a lot of fear, anxiety
and worry and that isolationfeeling where you are the only
(03:59):
one kind of going through thatexperiences on your own, versus
kind of like collectiveexperiences that we can go
through in this um spaces, um.
So I feel like when we know thetype of grief and itself is
make us better understanding oflike how do I ask for those
supports if I am able to?
(04:22):
And if I'm not asking forsupport, how do?
How do I be there for somebodywho's grieving and what ways
that could look like?
And so for me I still strugglewith that because of the concept
itself is very ambiguous for meand I struggle.
Recently when I lost mygrandmother, I remember feeling
(04:42):
like there is level of access tothat person's kind of
discontinued and but it seemedlike, just like your friend who
shared that I hear that there'snot really a go-to formula to
kind of grieve it, so you becomeby yourself and there's not
even that type to discuss, right, and I think one of the biggest
(05:03):
reason why we're having thisconversation, like how can we be
there for each other Part ofthe discussion of like how, what
is culturally do we do, how dowe are, what are the things that
we do well and what are thingsthat we don't really do well,
itself too, and so when wediscuss what type that looks
like I'm still trying to figureout myself- yeah, and I think
(05:24):
also there's two aspects ofgrief right, like the person
that is going through it, andthen the people that are
observing and witness to thegrief.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
right and for that, for the person that is going
through it, the first thing thatwe have to validate is that
there's no like cookie cutterformula of what grief is
supposed to look like.
And for most people and somepeople that necessarily maybe,
like their body, doesn't reactthe way other people's does.
(05:57):
Right and like some people,tears are right there.
You know, for example, for me Icry watching movies, like if
it's you know, something sadhappening.
I cry If my friends are cryingnext to me.
I'm not the person thatcomforts them, I'm the person
crying next to them.
I see a person crossing thestreet.
I'm the person that cried, likeyou know.
(06:18):
Like I see someone somethinghappened to them on the street,
I'm the person that cries rightthere.
But when something like deathhappens, my body does not like I
literally have to figure out,like trying to make like I could
poke my eyes and tears won'tcome out for the first like
(06:38):
significant amount of time, andI used to feel a lot of guilt
with that Like does that meanthat I don't love the person as
much as I thought.
Does that mean that, like myouter expression of grief or my
outer expression of sadness isnot similar to what I'm seeing
around me?
People can do and I used tothink, like this outer, like
raging expression of sadness,with tears and screaming, and
(07:01):
all of that meant that you lovedthem more, right, with tears
and screaming, and all of thatmeant that you love them more,
right.
Um, and so like understandingthat everyone's body reacts to
grief differently and so likenot having shame about how you
are reacting to your grief andyour loss.
But then, in addition to thepeople that are observing and
witness to people's grief, thatknow that so-and-so lost their a
(07:24):
person, we also as a communitytend to gravitate towards that
person that has this like reallyloud and really prominent
expression of grief and likekind of trying to help them.
And then we lose and we, thosepeople that are not really that
expressive and they, you know,we think they're okay, which
sometimes it's actually theopposite, because that person
(07:47):
has an outlet Allah has giventhem.
You know, they have the abilityto express it out loud, feel it
kind of get it out of theirsystem to a certain degree,
while that person that is thatcan't find their, their pain, or
that can't find their tears, isstruggling and their that
struggle comes with.
That struggle comes withneglect and feeling like, maybe,
(08:08):
and also people's judgmentright.
So imagine, I know a wife thather husband passed away and she
couldn't cry.
The people around her werecrying and people around her,
and she was just almost in shockand she hasn't shaken off the
shock yet.
(08:28):
So there was a lot of doopie, alot of talk about why isn't she
crying, what is going on, andthere's, like you know, the
swirling of that that happens.
So I think, also as a community, as witnesses, making sure that
we're checking up on peoplethat are not really having that
outer expression that you knowthat would be.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
I think holding space for that person who is grieving
, you know, can go a long way.
And as a community I know thatyou know, traditionally we have
the three days of grieving.
The three days of grieving Oneof the things I feel like we do
(09:10):
well is that we do show up.
You know there are Afoshas orwomen's groups that you know.
Come around, they might do,they'll do all the cooking you
know they will serve.
And I didn't realize I guess Isometimes, when you're in the
culture you kind of take a lotof these things for granted.
But you know, working inhealthcare and seeing people you
(09:32):
know as a respiratory therapist, a lot of the times we're
probably the last person to kindof see that person because we
might, you know, take off thebreathing tube and stuff like
that.
So sometimes you know there'snobody there.
A lot of the times there'snobody there Unless you know
this person comes from acommunity or a background where
it's very communal, and then yousee the whole room is kind of
(09:55):
filled and stuff like that.
So, alhamdulillah, in thataspect, you know, I feel like as
a community we show up, weprovide the cooking, the
cleaning and for those threedays.
And so I think what I'm hearingyou guys say is that let's
maybe take it beyond that.
You know, check in with thisperson after the three days,
(10:18):
because, because we do it sooften and we do, we have like
funerals almost every otherweekend.
We know if somebody dies backhome and stuff like that, it can
get into a routine where you go, you pay your respects and then
you leave, you know.
And so if everybody's doingthat, then the week afterwards
and I know that you know, myfriend that had shared the story
(10:39):
with me she was saying how,like the first couple of weeks,
everybody was there, the housewas packed, but then afterwards,
one of the I vividly remember,she was saying how, like the
first couple of nights, she wassleeping in her bed and she just
felt utterly alone.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
I think I want to explain a little bit about what
Bonnie was saying earlier.
You know the emotional impactof individuals and the way that
they process at the moment andafterward.
I think we forget that griefsometimes is like not even
sometimes like a, it's like astorm right, and psychologically
, your brain it doesn't reallydigest to the shock when it
(11:21):
happened and sometimes you startfeeling things after people
leave.
Sometimes you leave it, youfeel it while you're at the
moment because your body's ableto recognize that Sometimes it
takes six months down the roadto notice that wait, this
person's not here, I can't callthem, I can't talk to them and
(11:41):
that access is really is denied,Right, and so what the body
does is that the emotions, thatis like we.
Usually the part of our brainis like, the emotion is back
here and this shuts down fromthis part of the brain where
things are able to fully processand you as death, your body
goes into the shock mode itself.
And in our community we don'tunderstand the psychological and
(12:11):
the emotional.
That grief looks differentlyfor everybody aspect of it, but
we only know one way, which iscrying and expressing in front
of everybody for them to knowyou are actually sad, right, and
that sadness has to be veryvivid in their face.
It shouldn't be looking likeinvisible.
(12:32):
That invisible aspect of it issomething that us Oromo people
or, in general, anybody, anyonewho lose loved ones is like why
is this person not crying?
Because the tears hasn'tconnected to the brain yet, the
emotion has not happened yet.
Even sometime when, like, youget into a car accident, right,
(12:54):
it takes you a long time for youto recognize that the shock
wore off.
Exactly when the shock wearsoff, then you're like, oh my
gosh, that was traumatizing.
And so even the death of,especially when we're talking
about your friend, the death ofher parent and knowing that
itself for 10 year old, imaginethe trauma physical trauma that
(13:17):
that child is going through,right, and now from being a
little girl, probably a yearprior, just enjoying little
things and kind of beingexploring herself, to not being
an adult, basically in a span ofa year, right To losing two
people.
That is the most concrete andgrounded people in her life and
within those moments.
(13:37):
And I think when we talk aboutthat it's like how can we
understand is beyond what wewere told culturally or beyond
what traditionally we've beenpracticing.
And then there's also human inthat body, right, there's
emotion in that body, and soeven the conversation of like
why this person's not crying.
The person may feel like they'renot presently hearing you, but
(14:00):
they hear what you said, butthey just don't have the
emotional energy or the capacityto talk to you about that and
how that affected you, and sothat messaging kind of goes in
the back of their head.
It's like why would thesepeople even think about that?
That's not even the thing thatis in my mind.
I just lost the two mostimportant people in my life and
my focus is basically how, whatam I going to do?
(14:23):
What is my sister going to do,Right?
What is my family going to do,Right?
Is that disconnection is thething that we should be talking
about today.
It's like the emotional concept, the emotional support, the
emotional availability that weshould be when somebody lose
Because, like you said earlier,there's a lot of people die in
our community Young people, likevery, very young people.
(14:46):
Whether it is suicide, whetherit is accident, whether it is
homicide, all of it is happeningin our community.
And then the parents are like acar accident too.
The parents like they don'teven know what to do Right and
sometime there was aconversation I think Bonnie was
talking about last week is thatthe mother has to see somebody
(15:06):
that looks similar to her son inorder for the shock to alert
her saying wait, that's my son,but it's not her son.
So basically, what I'm tryingto say is that it looks
different, and how can we beable to be there for each other
when we know that everybody'sgoing to experience it
differently?
Speaker 3 (15:26):
Yeah, and to kind of just add a little bit to that
and it's funny because I waskind of smiling when you were
talking about the other personhears you when you're saying why
aren't they crying?
I can talk about a specificincident within my life where I
just had, you know, my, my, mymom passed away too and I
(15:48):
remember hearing it and goingdown on the ground like
literally collapsing to theground and, um, then I just
covered my face and I was on theground and I remember this lady
literally coming this close tomy face and telling and saying
out loud, right, this, it'sinsane to me say coming this
(16:08):
close to me and saying let mehear what she's saying.
Like coming this close, I'm onthe ground with my face covered
and being like let me hear whatshe's saying.
So I started performing and Istarted saying things like oh
mom, why did you leave?
And cause I thought that'swhat's expected of me my body
wasn't reacting like I told youguys earlier.
(16:29):
I wasn't even having tears, Ijust was shocked so I didn't
know what to do.
So I just dropped and she wasthis close and on the ground, on
her knees with me.
Instead of comforting me, shewas trying to like get some sort
of like um material to like usefor her grief.
You know what I mean.
And I started saying thesethings and I remember like I
(16:52):
don't, this is not what I wantto say, or I feel like saying I
mean I'm sure I was.
You know all of those things.
So yeah, like the fact that yousaid they hear you.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
So is it like because I guess my reference point of
like funerals might be a littlebit different Because like, were
they expecting you to do thewhole wailing and stuff, like
that I think so, not they herspecifically, and I think also
people come to again the ideathat not that inability to
(17:28):
understand that maybe this girlis not processing, Maybe, this
girl is also, or they go to theextreme right, where they just
think you're over it already.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
You're like, you're not.
You don't understand, you don'tknow what is happening.
It already, yeah, you're likeyou, you're not.
You don't understand, you don'tknow what is happening.
While, again, like the hobby,like you said, how you know, my
brain automatically went towhat's next?
Who's going to take care of us?
What are we going to do?
There's nobody here anymore.
You know, where do we live?
All of these things.
It went into problem, intoproblem solving, yeah, but they
think I'm not even there.
Yeah, you know.
(18:01):
Or that I like, and again, Iwill, I'll.
We can go a little bit deeperinto the idea of like what is
appropriate to expose kids to.
You know, because, like I'vetalked many times, I, I, um, was
exposed to, I, I.
I still grapple with the idea,like if it was right or wrong.
(18:24):
But I remember, at age nine,people dragging me in to say
goodbye to my dad's corpse andthey're like kiss him, say, say
you forgive him, kiss him, andme kissing this person that I
love so much, being very greyand very cold, and that's
(18:46):
literally the last memory I haveof this person.
Now, so as, but then there's afinality to it, like whenever my
brain and my dreams would, Iwould go and I used to have
dreams about, like, my parentscoming back and I would always
ask them what happened.
Like I know you died because Ikissed your corpse, and goodbye,
(19:12):
so how did?
And then they obviously my brainconstructs stories, you know,
whatever.
So there's a finality that camewith that action.
Goodbye, so how?
And then they obviously mybrain constructs stories.
You know us, whatever.
And so there's a finality thatcame with that action.
But there's a lot of traumathat came with it too, because I
still feel their skin on mylips.
Yeah, I still see the color oftheir skin, you know.
And also you know, with us,with our community, you get
(19:33):
washed and all, and so the coldmight not even be their skin, it
might be the cold water their,their body was washed through,
you know, so like.
But then there's this and wasthat appropriate for a
nine-year-old in it?
you know, and so on and so forth, um to be able to, to have that
, um experience.
So, again, like, my point iseither we go too extreme this
(19:57):
way where we're literally justexpecting them to wail, or we go
extreme this way where we'relike, oh, they're not going to
feel it, they're not going toremember, but they need to do
this, and we make them do thingsthat she needs to do.
Right.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
And the mindset of like you are doing the things
that they want you to do, versushow is she like?
How are you doing?
Yeah, and in a sense, like one,like one of yeah it's like.
So that's what I'm saying.
There's like so much ofdisconnection in our community
when it comes to grieving, towhere performing is part of it
(20:49):
right, not the emotional supportof regulation.
That happens where the personfeels seen and heard, and I
think I get why people, anybody,who lose loved ones, especially
people who are like kids wholose a loved one they early on
experience the loneliness, thedepth loneliness that they
(21:09):
constantly search for people tosee them, understand them.
I think it started from thatexperiences because when they
were trying to understand theworld, with the most dramatic
timing people are telling themto do where they are so
disconnected from the mindset ofsaying let me comfort this
person so they don't have tofeel anything, and said let's do
(21:31):
the things that weretraditionally taught to us.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
And I think, even like going back to traditions
and stuff like that is, I feellike we're almost stuck between
like two extremes, right, likelike growing up I always heard
like, oh, don't like at funerals, don't wail and don't do this,
because that's such an amarathing to do.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
I don't know, I don't know if you guys heard that
sentiment.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Yeah because at the other end you have you know the
Islamic aspect of it, right?
Please, you know, have sabr,have patience.
You know, try to go throughthis.
You know the most, the hardestthing in your life, with the
thought that you know you willsee this person again in the
akhirah right.
And it's not the fact that theyhave passed away.
(22:17):
This is not a finite thing, youknow.
It kind of um brings that wholething back together.
So I feel like, as a community,we're we're kind of we're not
talking about it, but we'restuck in between these two ideas
.
And how do we create thatbalance?
Speaker 3 (22:35):
yeah, no, and also you know, I, I, I want to
definitely talk about theislamic perspective of you know,
people saying like, have sabrand have patience, and also
taking that too far, yeah,having a very unrealistic
expectation of those that aregrieving you know, and I, you
know, I talked to you guys aboutthe story of this mom that just
(22:58):
lost her kid and I literally,was standing right next to her
and she saw someone that shelooked like her child and then
she started breaking down.
She wasn't wailing or anything,it was just streams of tears and
she was just saying, oh, that'show he looks like, but it's not
jumping on her, yeah, and thenthey were like Allah's gonna,
(23:20):
allah's gonna be mad at you andAllah's not human.
Yeah, allah knows more aboutwhat she's going through than
you are, or even she does, yeah.
Allah is the most understandingbeing on the universe, so how
can you?
Speaker 1 (23:33):
put your limitations, yeah, and you.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
It's just, it's so disgusting and I and like, in
the same funeral, they there wasthe daughter and, um, she
wasn't expressing emotions.
Okay, she wasn't expressingemotion.
And uh, basically they theywere telling her to comfort,
(23:58):
comfort her mother and tell herto stop crying, and tell her to,
like, get in control.
And I was like, I literally wasconfused to what universe I
just entered, because they'relike is it now this
17-year-old's responsibility tonavigate her mom's emotions of
losing a child and get her incontrol?
(24:21):
How does that make sense?
But it was very, very annoyingand very disgusting, because I
think in our community we dohave rahmah, we do care about
our people, we do want the bestfor… and the reason those people
were saying those things wasfor her yeah, you know, because
they they have this real,genuine belief that Allah's
(24:41):
gonna, like smite her orsomething you know and yeah, um,
so I understand it comes from agood place, but sometimes it's
not.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
It's misplaced, yeah but, I wonder why, okay, to that
, I want to bring something.
I was like, why do?
Why is it so hard for us as acommunity to sit with discomfort
, the emotional discomfort thatwe don't know?
Because for me, that jumping tothe mom to telling her is their
own discomfort, yeah, right, soit's like because they feel
uncomfortable that she's doingthat.
(25:11):
So they want to like reduce it.
Yeah, right, it's like okay,okay, okay, you're done, you're
done, you're done.
Crying like so I'm okay.
It's more about like how I'mfeeling, yeah, than how the
person's feeling, but I don'teven think they recognize that.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
I think they don't yeah for her.
Yeah or for the they think theyare.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
They think they are so part of it.
I'm curious for you guys, likeas we were talking about this
conversation of like, when itcomes to grief.
Grief is a lot of likeemotional reloc, right, you feel
sad, you feel angry, you feelaccepting and then all of a
sudden you're going to cry againand you go through all this
emotional elevation anddifferent flows that your body
is able to understand.
But when a person is grieving,why can we just sit with them in
(25:51):
silence?
They can cry and just say youknow, you're doing great.
You're doing great that you'recrying.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
I don't think we have those tools yet.
Yeah, you know I I don't thinkwe've developed I'm trying
because, like even me, likeforget about a grief of a, like
a loved one.
At my big age, I'm stillgrappling with emotions that my
children show me Okay.
You know what I mean, like yeahit's like a lot of you know
(26:24):
working through your own issuesfirst before you can recognize
oh, this person needs me to dothis and just sit there in
silence.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
It's uncomfortable, but that's what I'm saying,
right, like when we are jumpingon somebody.
For me, when I hear and seethat right, and that tells me,
it's like, okay, yes, you haveyour own discomfort around
grieving and sadness and emotionin general, but how do we get
there?
Because the funerals are goingto keep happening and this
(26:56):
behavior is going to continue,traumatizing individuals who
need to work through this right.
But what can we do in themeantime, noticing that
everybody's grief looksdifferent, everybody's sadness
looks different, and it's not myjob to tell them how to grieve.
It's not my job to tell themthey need to be patient
Islamically, because ProphetMuhammad cried every time.
(27:16):
It's not my job to tell themlike they need to be patient
islamically, because prophetmuhammad cried every time.
When he went to see hismother's grave, he cried yeah,
when he was, when he lostkhadijah, he cried like he
didn't say don't cry, and he wasstill sad he's still sad
exactly, and he like islamicallywe can express emotions, we we
can talk about emotion, livewith emotion.
(27:38):
But I feel like we kind of takethe Islam aspect and use a
little bit of culturalunderstanding that is misguided
from Islam.
Right, they got it from themisguided understanding of what
Islam is and then they try toapply that at funeral.
It's one dimensional.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Yeah, I think it's taking the humanness out of it
and it's like applying what iscomfortable.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
yeah, not necessarily the holistic view of grief, and
yes, and so that's why we'rehere in this conversation by
saying like, okay, how can wehave a grief for the individuals
who's going through it and whatwill be the most appropriate
way?
Because earlier I'm sure youmentioned about balance.
Right, in a normal community,what would that balance look
like, right In this moment thatwe're talking about grief?
Speaker 3 (28:24):
Yeah, I think, first of all, being realistic and
logical.
Right, it's not always aboutemotions, in the sense that you
don't always just have to cometo cry, and there's this aspect
again.
I always want to go back tothis performative piece where
they want to go and they wantthe person that's grieving to
(28:45):
see them, so that, hey, justregister that I came to your
funeral, you know, and it shouldcome from the space of like,
okay, if I'm coming, I shouldcome with the purpose, right,
the first three days, the firstweek, alhamdulillah, we're
really good about you know,actually rewind.
Some of us are really good aboutlike coming with food and being
(29:07):
there to serve and to help,instead of to be catered to
Other of us, to be catered toOther of us and I've also been
in my very, very young life.
I feel like I have a lot offuneral experiences and I've
seen where people that come tocomfort the family and then they
(29:30):
end up acting like they're at afive-star restaurant and
ordering things and ordering thepeople that just lost somebody
to go.
Oh, can you please get me some?
Can you get me that water?
This hulbata doesn't taste verygood.
Can I get the ruzas?
So?
Speaker 1 (29:43):
when did we make it into a catering thing?
I want to know because, likenot, like I have friends that
are like not Oromo and you knowstill Muslim, east African and
stuff.
They don't do the whole likecooking and, like you know,
serving and the whole cateringthing.
When?
Speaker 3 (29:59):
did that happen?
I don't know, but I know thatthe Ethiopian Habesha community
does that too.
Okay, but the difference istheir, their Afosha, their, you
know not even if for again, oh,I have so much to say about this
their afosha or their neighbors, their community takes care of
the cooking, literally.
(30:20):
One thing, you know, I really,really I think that's similar
for us too.
Yeah, but one I appreciateabout the Habesha community's
funeral, and my parents diedback home.
So I kind of it was kind of likethat when the person's grieving
, they don't have to get up fromthat space that they're in,
they sit there and everyone elsetakes care of their guests for
(30:42):
them, and everyone else makessure that they're eating,
they're drinking for that three,four days time, and while you
know, there's this gray tentthat they used to put up and
like.
Well, until the gray tent isthere by the fourth day, they
pack up the gray tent, wash thedishes, clean the house and
leave.
That's also a problem, right,but I feel like within our
(31:03):
community there's not a lot ofthat.
There is that aspect of thehalf was just doing that, these
things for you.
But if someone doesn't have anahosha, they're screwed.
Yeah, if someone doesn't have acommunity like a support, a
support system, they're screwed.
I so I sure you guys saw thevideo.
I said y'all, like you know, ifsomeone is an introvert and
(31:24):
that doesn't have a bigcommunity like me, we're screwed
like a big community like me.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
We're screwed like okay, well, give context then of
the video oh, so there's thislady on tiktok.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
She said um instagram , is it instagram?
And she said uh, she, if youhad six people to who?
are the six people that wouldcarry your casket, and I sent
the video to my husband becausefor her she's.
There was this guy, I thinkit's like in New York.
He's like carrying a casketdown the street and the casket
(31:59):
is doing and I, so I, Igenuinely think, like not
genuinely, but like I, I makethis joke because my, my circle
is very tight, I don't have alot of like buzz around me.
So I tell my husband like youbetter start lifting weights,
buddy.
Like I might just be you so,but all that is unjust.
(32:22):
But in reality it's almost likea popularity contest too, you
know, because people only do forthose that have done for them
to a certain degree and insteadof that, like you know being,
when you show up, come with foodin those times.
You know, maybe the week afteryou know, go with food to.
(32:44):
You know, maybe that person isnot emotionally there to be able
to cook for her kids or for forher, you know, his kids, if
it's the wife that died, or, youknow, for the mom or whatever,
like, go with food, go and likeand just sit there with them.
Sit there, you know this.
There is this lady.
Actually she went with um, amate, so she hired a cleaning
(33:06):
service lady but she dressed herlike normal, you know, like uh,
and she said, oh, this is myfriend, she wanted to come too
and she, while they were there,they just sussed out the house
just to make sure, like, hey, dothey need?
Speaker 1 (33:19):
help or not?
Speaker 3 (33:19):
And then she went and she said okay, can do, you mind
if we just help clean up alittle bit?
And they, these two are closeenough for this.
The the person grieving to letthat happen, right?
so and then she was like okay,get, good, get to it and that
lady left the house clean andI'm sure you know they she does
she didn't feel bad because thislady hired someone else to do
(33:40):
this thing for her.
She thought it was her frienddoing it for her.
You know what I mean.
So, like being thoughtful andbeing going a week later maybe
you know the two weeks laterwith food so that they have food
to eat for the next couple ofweeks.
Having helping clean, helpingdo laundry, like I love, and
then that's also a thing that Ireally really appreciate are
these?
(34:01):
they come and they're like, oh,you know, casserole or whatever
it is, so you don't leave it atyour door because the idea of
like, maybe this person doesn'twant to see me yeah, they don't
have the the bandwidth to beable to um to deal with, like
socializing having like puttingthat social persona up, so let
me just leave it at the doorgive them a text, you know, if
(34:24):
they want to, so that they canpick it up and being that.
But then to a certain degree.
I don't mean to rag on ourcommunity, but to a certain
degree some people they're likeoh you know or like oh you know
there is rahmat.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Sometimes it's also lacking, yeah yeah, so I'm
hearing, I'm hearing a couple ofthings, couple of things.
So so I want to say you asked aquestion before I can add on
what Bonnie was saying.
Is that well, I think for me,as someone from hotter is that
hotter gay?
Specifically, we always hadfood being made, even regardless
(35:06):
, as a community, I think thebiggest thing that we I love
about our community is that wecollectively show up.
We show up.
That's what we do.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Some balance.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
Yes, right To the ripping of body, no no, no, I'll
get to what she said too.
Hold on, we show up, y'all, Ilove y'all, please don't kill me
.
We show up and then we bringfood and we keep company, and I
think we do it as formality,right, and I think formality is
traditionally kind of keeppassing down, and part of us
(35:37):
having this conversation is that, yes, what our parents and our
generation before that has doneis great.
We love the collectiveness thatwe had and how we continue to
do that.
We're saying and right, we'renot saying but, but we're saying
and what else can we do?
Right?
And part of it is like, yes,formally, show up, yeah Right.
But we are also saying Don'tstop only at the three days,
(35:58):
yeah Right.
Or the week, or the week or themonth or the year, saying if
there are six people saying useone weekend, use the other
weekend, use the other weekend,kind of delegate that and
diversify the support system.
And I think that's the newversion that we could do Right.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
And I think as part of the balance that we were
talking about earlier, and Ithink, as like people from
diaspora, we have that privilegeright to kind of pick and
choose and say this is what theydid well, this is what we can
improve on, and to kind of workin this framework of what is a
new way of dealing with funerals, not so much saying all of it
(36:39):
is bad or all of it is good.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
Yeah, yeah.
And I think also, just to addup to that, is that especially
if you're friends or like closewith this person, that just
don't think because all of asudden they're functioning like
a normal person, that they'regotten back to their normality
because, they will never go backto that normality.
And then, also, understandingthat, one thing I'll tell you
(37:01):
guys I had this friend that knewabout my mom and so on and so
forth, mom and so on and soforth and um and tiff.
Later on, my best friend, every, every mother's day, they would
call me and have a conversationwith me and I would just I, I
paid attention later on andsomehow, like they it was, I
(37:24):
always got to get a call.
Like you know, we always talked, but then that day was very
consistent they would miss mybirthdays.
To be honest, sometimes like butthen they never missed mother's
days and they and it's sointeresting and then later on,
when we got to talking and I waslike, did you guys know like
you always?
And they're like why do youthink we did that like?
Why do you think we had youknow like, and being that
(37:46):
thoughtful of like, hey, youknow, you know this day might be
so painful and hard for thatperson.
You know for, or like thebirthday of the person that died
or the you know even theanniversary of the person that
died Having or like Mother's Dayand Father's Day, or like
Valentine's Day for those thatlike lost.
I know we don't celebrate that,but like the world does, that's
(38:07):
when you see it so much right.
The happiness is out there andgratitude is out there.
So even though they don'tcelebrate it, they see it.
That's a trigger yeah so beingable to be like, hey, how are
you doing?
And you don't have to bring up,like I said, I didn't even know
, I didn't put two and twotogether until like a couple of
times later where, um, you don'thave to talk about the person
(38:28):
that's gone, but just havingthat person, someone to talk,
just being there talking to themabout anything, you know, just
occupying that one hour, that 30minutes, that 45 minutes that
they don't have to talk.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
Think about the person that's gone it's like
rewiring the brain to understandthat the support system is
there, because I think the braincan sometimes like tell you how
lonely you are by kind ofmagnifying all the evidence
reason why you're lonely.
And I think when people areconsistently showing up you can
say like, oh, I know Tiffshowing up for me, I know this
(39:01):
person is showing up for me.
I see that person's callingright.
So the brain is going to startlessening as you go through the
part of the grief process thatI'm not really alone in this
part because, yes, I'm still theone that's dealing with this I
still have support system.
Anything part of us talkingabout the discomfort of
emotional grief that we dealwith in our community.
(39:22):
It's kind of like going back tothe balance of routine checking
, right to balance of equality,like how can we be able to be
equally support one anotherwhere the person doesn't feel so
much?
Speaker 1 (39:34):
all that is on their shoulder and the other thing is,
I think, just providing, likeinviting them out yeah, it's a
big one, it kind of gets themout of their routine too.
Yeah, and include them in, yeah,yeah because I think I was
reading this book over theweekend and something about
grief.
I can't remember the titleright now, but it was saying how
(39:57):
, like, sometimes there's awhole loop that happens, right,
people don't invite you out, andthen it kind of goes back to
saying you kind of reinforce theidea that I'm lonely and it
just circles.
To reinforce the idea that I'mlonely and it just circles, and
so, as a friend or somebody youknow that is in the circle for
this person is to kind of breakthat chain and kind of invite
(40:18):
them out.
They might say no the firstcouple of times but keep doing
it until they, you know come ontheir circle.
Speaker 3 (40:21):
And just to add to things both of you guys were
saying about the brain and thenthe personality change.
You know, grief changesfundamentally the person's inner
working inside their brain andthen also that obviously impacts
their personality right so whenthe way we process as a, the
way we process um, emotions, webecome almost nerve endings to a
(40:46):
certain degree, uh and uh thatcauses maybe, maybe the person
will that used to be very zenand calm and like normal, like
you know, has a normal temper.
Temper uh might all of thesudden be easily irritable or
might be someone that is has ashort fuse or whatever you know
(41:08):
secluded.
Someone that might be a socialbutterfly might turn into a
recluse.
Someone that is has a shortfuse or whatever you know
secluded.
Someone that might be a socialbutterfly might turn into a
recluse someone that was arecluse might turn into a social
butterfly.
Because what I like to say isthat, um, I, I always have all
of that is a coping skill.
It's a coping skill right.
And also for for those peoplelike sometimes there is
(41:29):
self-medication that happenswith that, because I used to
always say it feels like there'stwo craters in my body, in my
soul, that I hear the echo of itRight Whenever I'm by myself.
I used to echo go places and dothings with people to not hear
(41:49):
that echo of these big, hugecraters that are vacuum of right
that vacuum that's there.
So people would used to be likeoh, how come you're always
hanging out with people?
Oh my god, you're a socialbutterfly.
Oh my god, you have 10 000friends.
If you ask those 10 000 peopleif they really knew me at a
(42:09):
certain point, they didn't.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
Yeah you know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (42:12):
They only knew the surface, they only knew the
bubbly, you know, like whatever.
So being able to like, okay,maybe this is how this person's
processing things maybe this ishow this person is processing
things the change in personality.
Being gracious and mercifulenough to be under to understand
, this person just went through,like you said, the habit.
They just lost access to them,one of the most important people
(42:33):
in their life or someone thathad a very big impact in their
life.
Of course it's gonna have aripple effect in their
personality.
Of course that's gonna create adistress.
You know, I was talking to youguys yesterday actually I wasn't
, I wasn't gonna address this,but you idea, like my parents
died out of like literally in aspan of like this right, and
(42:55):
they weren't sick for a verylong time.
It wasn't something that'sexpected.
It was quick and fast and cameand gone.
So that created a veryuncertain uncertainty if people
are going to stay alive, for meuncertainty if people are going
(43:15):
to stay alive.
For me so, while I was, you know, because I knew we were doing
this I had done a lot of talkingand processing some you know
this, this situation the lastcouple of weeks, and it
triggered within me this fearand anxiety about my children
dying, my husband dying.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
So I was staying up at night to kind of going
checking my kids breathing dude,did I just pick up on your
anxiety, because last night, inthe last two nights, I'm not
sleeping either.
Speaker 3 (43:44):
No, seriously, I literally was just like, and I I
was like walking around thehouse making sure the windows
are closed, the door is closed,and making sure like my kids are
breathing, making sure thatthey're like and you know, just
being extremely and like the wayI was driving and just making
(44:04):
sure, like all of that, and Ididn't realize why, all of a
sudden, this thing I had putaway, that I felt like I haven't
experienced in a long time.
Speaker 2 (44:13):
Anxiety death is real .
Speaker 3 (44:14):
Yes, it's real.
So with coming back and Irealized it started happening
after, we were having thisconversation.
We were talking about thisconversation and it happened
because, of course, therapy,therapy, therapy, you know, and
that breakthrough.
I love that, yeah.
So I just like there's thatfear of like you might not want
to start having friendshipsanymore because you don't know
if you create these newconnections and what if they
(44:36):
walk out and they get killed.
Speaker 2 (44:36):
It's very debilitating.
It's so debilitating that itmakes that your whole nerve
system to shut down with so muchof danger and fear.
Because your mind understandslike I don't want to invest any
more emotional work with people.
What if I again lose thisperson?
Because I think here's mytrauma with death.
(44:57):
Right, I remember when I thinkI was probably 17 or 18.
This is the reason why I don'tlike to answer my phone while
I'm sleeping.
When my great aunt passed away,I picked up the phone and my
dad told me while I was sleepingthat she passed away and from
back home, from back home, okay.
And then I said I was sleepingand then I gave my phone to my
(45:22):
sister and then I was just kindof like sitting up against the
wall processing what justhappened and what I just heard.
And this is one of my favoritegreat hands, and so to this day,
I don't like a phone call fromback home.
I don't have a really comfortwith that.
The first thing I said iseverything okay.
Is everything okay?
Because my reaction is like I'mgoing to hear a bad news.
(45:43):
I'm going to hear a bad news.
I'm going to hear a bad news,yeah, even during the day, like
when my sister calls me.
My sister knows now she saidAssalamualaikum first and then
she calls Right, so I know it'ssafe to answer the phone
physically.
Because even as I'm talkingabout this experiences right now
, the gut wrenching of what thatnight felt like for me is still
(46:04):
presently there and I thinkeven the conversation we might
be collectively going throughthis the last two nights I'm
getting up in the middle of thenight having this gut anxiety
feeling where I'm like okay, sothere's this thing in an EMDR
that you do is kind of like youfind a box and you put
(46:27):
information there until you'reready to deal with it.
So I use that as an EMDRtherapist.
I use that to kind of go backto sleep because I did my duas,
I talked to Allah, but at thesame time the the like tossing
and turning with anxiety was sopresent that I was like, okay,
this is the things that I needto put it away and then I can
talk about it in the morning orI can deal with it later because
I need to sleep.
So when, bonnie, you weretalking about your anxiety
(46:48):
around death for your kids Idon't know, maybe it's this
conversation itself is so likeheavy for all of us because we
selectively lost family membersin some aspect of it and it's
relatable and I don't think it'slike.
This is what we talked aboutearlier when we said like it
doesn't end just the time thepassed that person passed away.
(47:10):
It continues to with you forthe rest of your life.
It changes you how you interactwith people.
It changes you how you makeconnection.
It changes you how you buildrelationship.
It changes you because you'relike what, if you leave too,
like the abandonment is sosignificant that it really like
physically debilitates you.
Speaker 3 (47:30):
yeah, so I just want to name that, yeah, and I, I
want to just like add to that,like you know, sometimes it's
not even, it's not even likeanything that is related to that
right, like, and sometimes,like I you know, now my husband
knows um, if he's out and hecan't answer his phone, he has
to text me.
I can't answer my phone, likeI'm okay, I just can't answer my
(47:51):
phone, it's okay because mybrain doesn't go.
Oh, he's ignoring me and itgoes, he's dead, like that's
literally where my brain goeslike if.
um, so yeah, like if my, if Idon't talk to my, my sibling,
and they don't answer, like if Idon't get a response, and that
used to come off very clingy.
Speaker 1 (48:14):
And like controlling yeah.
Speaker 3 (48:15):
Controlling yeah Because I used to get really
upset when someone doesn'trespond back and not like
respond answer.
Just let me know you're okay.
Speaker 2 (48:24):
But I never used to have.
Speaker 3 (48:25):
That's anxiety though , exactly, but I never used to
have the, the language toexpress why I was feeling the
way I was feeling.
So people used to think I justlike was controlling and like is
very clean.
So what are?
What are like?
Speaker 1 (48:37):
some resources then, Cause I think we have to wrap up
as well.
But what are the resources?
Cause these are like superheavy, you know, labor intensive
, um, emotions around grief andabandonment and stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (48:53):
I think, before we jump into resources, I want her
to finish her thought, becauseshe was just talking about how
that effect is being worryingabout other people when she's
like anxious about theirexistence.
Speaker 3 (49:03):
No, I, yeah, I mean it's.
It's just the fact that, likewe see and like you know, people
will label certain thingsbecause they don't understand
certain things.
I know that one being able tobe honest about like, why, like
you have to ask why, because,almost if you lost someone
(49:24):
important in your life, there'sa lot of a big chance most of
your personality traits can goback to you know what I mean,
can go back.
You can trace that like oh, whydid this shift?
I used to be like this and nowI'm like this, and you can trace
that to that loss because howdid you receive it, how, how was
(49:45):
it told to you?
Oh, how close was this person?
How did that happen?
Was it fast, was it slow?
Or, you know, was it somethingthat was really disruptive?
All of these things.
So it creates a personality andeven like I used to call them
defects I'm told not to callthem that Like these spaces and
(50:05):
these vacancies in yourpersonality, that's that kind of
other people might be able tolabel something else.
Like I said, my friends used tothink that I was clingy, or my
you know like and I used orbossy, because I did it and I
had to explain.
Once I figured it out, I had toexplain hey, I really just want
to know you're okay.
(50:25):
Can you just let me know youdon't?
We don't have to talk, just say, hey, I can't talk right now,
but I'm okay and I'm good thoseare valid requests, though.
Speaker 2 (50:33):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (50:34):
Yeah and I'm good, or saying like, uh, the idea, the
feeling of, um, sometimes beingnot enough also could go back to
that, because sometimes thepeople you feel like how come
all this death is happeningaround me?
Yeah, you know, how comeeveryone that I?
Speaker 2 (50:55):
love seems to go.
Speaker 3 (50:57):
You know, and like I'm here, survival's guilt is
real, like, oh, if this personwas here, maybe they will be
able to figure this situationout and maybe able to help these
people out more than I do, andyou know, and like I can you.
So, anyway, long story short,making sure that you understand
this grief within our community.
We understand that griefdoesn't show up one way.
(51:20):
Yeah, the personality and brainchemistry of people that are
grieving really gets alteredaltered for a lifetime, not time
doesn't heal shit if you don'twork on it yeah you know what I
mean.
If you don't, go to therapy ifyou don't investigate, if you
don't take your medicine,meaning, like you know, like and
and it's time is not going todo it yeah yeah, it's just going
(51:42):
to bury it and it's going tofester, it's going to show up in
different ways, yeah, and then,lastly, I think, also making
sure that you have one.
You have a really strongconnection with allah, because,
god, that allah is a real thing,it helps in so many ways, but
then, at the same time, notguilting people because they
(52:03):
haven't gotten there yet,because that ruins their
relationship with allah, becauseand you don't want to be
responsible for that you don'twant to be responsible why
someone turned away from Allahbecause you talked your nonsense
and got in between thatrelationship.
So that's all I think I wouldlike to say is that there's so
many different aspects of life.
(52:24):
Grief hits All of it.
Speaker 2 (52:27):
Yeah, I think that's important.
I think some of the the let'stalk about the do's and don'ts
that we should be doing atfunerals, right and before and
after, including what bonnie wassaying is that during the
funeral, one of the things thatis do is like offer the duas and
support the people and bepresently there.
Whether, however, you're goingto be showing up and don't mind
(52:49):
for me, don't go down.
Speaker 3 (52:51):
Really, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I keep going.
Speaker 2 (52:55):
We're talking about like etiquette of how we can
show up at funerals, gossiping,right, judging the way that a
person is grieving, and thenbeing able to kind of like
putting the pressure on thegriever, the person, to explain
what happened.
Yes, and also it's like andthen put in responsibility to
(53:17):
serve you, and that's a don't,like a big don't, and also do is
continue to support afterward.
Yeah, right, so that's some ofthe things that we kind of need
to balance and do in order forus to kind of manage those
expectations as a communitymoving forward.
And I think part of it is likealso some of the things that we
said earlier is like, as thediasporas, oromos, or people who
(53:39):
live in the West, we can takeour tradition and add a new way
to it, so that way that, like,we can kind of get rid of
certain things.
Speaker 3 (53:47):
So that balance itself is yeah, and I also.
It just came to me right nowthat, like we can kind of get
rid of certain things.
So that balance itself is yeah,and I also.
I just came to me right nowfunerals, yes, you can be
introspective and grateful thatthis thing is not happening to
you, but the funeral and thetazia space is not the place to
reflect that or to speak aboutthat oh I can never imagine if
this happened to me.
yeah, yeah, yeah, I can't.
(54:08):
Or like I literally wallahi wabillahi.
I remember a mom hugging herdaughter and saying I don't know
what I would do.
I don't know what I would do ifthis happened to me?
Speaker 2 (54:20):
Yeah, it's been really intensive.
I'm like, are you?
Speaker 1 (54:21):
kidding, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (54:23):
But they don't realize.
They don't realize.
People hear, they think they'reso quiet, even though they're
speaking in octaves, that theuniverse could hear yeah, yeah,
I don't.
Speaker 1 (54:32):
Yeah, I think it's just a reflect what they haven't
processed either.
Speaker 2 (54:37):
I think, hopefully, right, this conversation can be
a highlight to people, right,like we are, our stories and
Bonnie's stories and the storiesthat you shared is something
that would resonate to peoplesaying you know what?
I know there are certain thingsthat I don't like about the way
we do it, but we can improve it, right?
I think this is why we'rehaving this conversation is to
highlight saying, hey, we needto do better and we do something
(55:00):
really good, but we also needto do better.
Hey, we need to do better andwe do something really good, but
we also need to do better.
And so, to kind of going backto what you were saying earlier,
is that, resource-wise, thatpart of it?
I think we already mentioned alot of the resources is how can
we show up for one another andwhat do you think, based on our
community, the best resources oreven the nuanced resources that
we should be having in ourcommunity?
Speaker 1 (55:21):
I think the masjids honestly, even the nuanced
resources that we should behaving in our community, I think
the masjids, honestly, I thinkthat they can play a bigger role
in helping people process griefand stuff like that, rather
than just being a place wherethe funeral is held yeah, or
being a place where you know thefamily of the grieved or
whatever pays the masjids andyou know they stay the three
(55:41):
days there of the grieved orwhatever pays the masjids and
you know they stay the threedays there, because a lot of
times it even puts a bad tastein the people who are masjid
goers for the people having thefuneral there, because they
leave, you know, food everywhereand it's like it's unclean and
all that stuff.
But I think the masjids need todo a better job and step up and
provide counseling.
(56:03):
You know grief counselingprovide.
You know so many resources thatour community lacks because
fundamentally the masjid has tobe that focal point of the
community and do more.
Speaker 2 (56:15):
Right, yeah, and the other resources that I would add
is that, like always, I willsay if you're able to, if you
can.
I think grief counseling isalways the right thing to go
about when you're experiencingit and saying, like you know, I
don't have a space in mycommunity or in my social
environment that I can grievethis, but I don't understand
(56:36):
what's happening to me becauseI'm not grieving the ways I'm
expected to grieve.
Speaker 1 (56:41):
But I think, if we're trying to target our community
specifically, I think that themasjid is probably the best
place to do grief counseling andtarget those people.
It is, but a lot of people arenot at the masjid, but they will
never go to seek these thingsout on their own, but the youth
are not at the masjid, can Ialso just add.
(57:02):
But our funerals are not own,but the youth are not at the
mosque, can I also just add.
But our funerals are not reallyrun by the youth, though.
Speaker 2 (57:08):
It is, that's true, but who are we trying to engage?
Speaker 1 (57:11):
in these experiences.
I understand that.
But I'm saying, if we're tryingto change how we do things as a
community, I think that that'sone place that Is kind of a
springboard.
Speaker 3 (57:21):
It doesn't have to be the only place and I think we
also have to understand thatOromo people.
There's like having an Oromocommunity center and having a
grief counselor there or someonethat is centered there that
would be able to help the Oromocommunity, either Muslim,
christian, In their language.
Speaker 1 (57:39):
In their language.
Speaker 3 (57:41):
And then also having.
So I guess what I'm trying tosay is that you both are right
Having being able to havesomeone that is in the masjid
and that is also having to behonest, having our sheikhs go
through grief counseling likecertifications or something, so
that they're able to have thesecular understanding and
secular ways of like you knowgiving therapy, not therapy, but
(58:03):
even advice.
Speaker 1 (58:04):
So Islamic advice because the reason why I say
that is because, like on Friday,I went to um Jummah at one of
our masjids and the topic thatwas talked about like it had no,
like I was like how does thisrelate to me?
You, what I mean as somebodygoing to the masjid having my
own issues and blah, blah, blah.
(58:25):
It's completely disconnected.
You know what I mean, and so Ithink they— Wait, what was
being—was there a funeralhappening there?
Speaker 3 (58:34):
Is that what they were talking about it?
Speaker 1 (58:35):
was, but it's not like—I can't even remember the
topic of what it was because Ijust completely checked out.
You know what I mean, becausewe have so many like.
We have grief going on, we havedeaths in our community, we
have drug use, we have suicideand all this stuff, but it's not
being talked about.
On the member.
Speaker 3 (58:55):
And you know what it is.
Actually, when I went to themasjid I think it was on Friday,
not this Friday, but notprobably they were talking about
how the sheikh was talkingabout how he feels like it's
whack-a-mole time, so like theyonly get members at that space
and at that time so they want tobe able to address like so many
(59:21):
things that sometimes maybethey're addressing that thing
that's in the forefront of theirmind and then that thing might
not be something that relates toyou specifically, or anybody,
oh yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (59:32):
So I mean I do want to kind of yes, you're right, we
need it all.
We need more and I think wecontinue to.
We'll have this conversationwhere we can kind of provide
more resources and supportsystem.
Yeah, but I do want to justkind of do a recap of today's
show and that grief.
Again, it takes a lot ofemphasis and empathy and patient
(59:53):
and balance and kind ofproviding that and being able to
understand that every singlegrief is personal.
To understand that every singlegrief is personal.
Respecting the Islamicprinciples is also another
aspect of going through that andunderstanding that there is
nuance to ways that other peoplemay grieve, and so part of it
(01:00:13):
that we just want to encourageour audience to hopefully this
is a conversation that needs tocontinue having, but for them to
just kind of have a place to beseen and heard and understood a
little bit, and so we just wantto invite our listeners to
think about different ways thatthey also approach grief and how
they grieve themselves and waysthat it worked for them in the
(01:00:35):
past, and that is something thatwe can continue to share and
how to change you know what areways that our community can
improve, because there are somany things that we probably
haven't thought about.
Speaker 1 (01:00:46):
You know creative ways that we can implement yeah,
absolutely so thank you so much, everyone.
Speaker 3 (01:00:53):
This has been difficult conversation.
Speaker 1 (01:00:56):
Join the conversation in the comment section or on
our instagram page to share withus what you think.
We do not have all the answersand our biggest goal is to kick
off and get the conversationgoing.
May Allah accept our effortsand use us as catalysts for
change.
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