October 9, 2023 • 27 mins
As we wrap-up season two, we talk about what we have learned from our interviews with young men, young women, a married women, a married man, and our discussion on parenting.
We tackle the glaring disparity of expectations between genders, examining how societal norms and cultural influences often lead to the marginalization of single women. We also emphasize the desperate need for resources and constructive dialogues to help our youth build and sustain wholesome relationships.
Feeling undervalued is a common experience among many women due to the warped definition of masculinity that prizes financial stability over emotional maturity. As we turn the tables on this perspective, we dissect what it truly means to be a man - and no, it isn't just about the financials. We advocate for the pivotal role of emotional intelligence in building strong, fulfilling relationships, and stress the importance of mutual understanding and openness for growth.
Be prepared to be enlightened and inspired as we share our personal stories, learnings, and perspectives in hopes of sparking a positive transformation within our community. Don't miss out on this empowering conversation!
Visit our IG page at https://www.instagram.com/dc_overcoffee/ to join the conversation!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
As-salamu alaikum, welcome to Difficult
Conversations where we tackletaboo topics in a safe space
through empowerment andeducation.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
So today we just want to do a season recap, seeing
how what our favorites episodesare and what are something that
stands out to all of usindividually.
This season we tackle a lot ofconversation, families being
single and what our familiesresponsibilities and how culture
play in love.
Those episodes really hit forme really well because we talked
(00:35):
about traditionally differentpart of automals and how we have
different ideas and culture hasplayed huge roles and different
family members and expectationsand how that contributes into
courting and meeting people.
But I do feel like there is alot of work to do.
The conversation was just astarter to bring an awareness
for people who are in similarshoes, and I also want to talk
(00:59):
about how much being single in30s are such a taboo
conversation for many women whoare amazing and accomplishing in
their fields and, at the sametime, because they have done
such a amount of healing workfor themselves to understand
what they're looking for in apartner.
It became such a hard processfor many of them and then I've
(01:22):
noticed that it resonated for alot of people that I know in my
life as well that reached out tome in saying how they related
to the episode of single and 33.
It made them realize thatthey're not alone in their
experiences, because I thinkwithin Oremo, and specifically
Muslim Oremo community, I don'tthink we talk about the
challenges of being in your 30sand still interested and desired
(01:45):
to get married, and that doorseemed to be very far fetched
because of our cultural ideasand how people overlook you.
You can be a doctor or asurgeon and be the most
incredible person in your field,because culturally it's not
really well accepted or talkedabout it or normalized around it
(02:07):
.
Girls or women who are amazingat what they do and they're like
incredible personality, wise,beautiful people, and then they
also appear to be struggling inthis area and because society,
in our society, we don't talkabout it.
I'm sure everybody who ismarried or families they have
expectation and thoseexpectations like you, should be
(02:29):
married and have kids, and whenyou don't, you look at it a
different way, and so I wouldsay this season, touching on
those topic was very engagingfor me as a person and it's
engaging for a lot of women whoare in a similar situation as
well, and I hope that's theconversation we'll continue to
have.
So, yeah, what about you,opshiro?
Speaker 1 (02:51):
I think one of the main things I took away from our
whole season is just the lackof conversation.
The lack of communication andthe lack of just people being
able to have space to talk aboutrelationship issues, having
somebody in their life just tosay, hey, this is what I'm going
through, and to be able to getconstructive guidance and kind
(03:15):
of roadmap as to where to go andwhat to do.
The fact that there is noresources in the community,
parents are not talking to theirkids about it, and just the
disparity between the guys andthe girls how they were expected
the woman to be ready formarriage and stuff like that,
and the men to just have thefinancial aspect of it.
What I took from our season andputting in all the work that we
(03:38):
did is that, first of all,there's no, just the lack of
communication around this topic,the fact that there is no
resources in the community,parents are not talking to their
kids about it, and just thedisparity between the guys and
the girls how they're like yousaid, bonnie, were expected the
woman to be ready for marriageand stuff like that, and the men
(03:59):
to just have the financialaspect of it.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
One of the many things that I learned this
season and my take away from forthis season is one the lack of
resources for our youth to dothe right thing, to go about the
right way when approaching andpursuing relationships, the lack
of communication, like Abshurahmentioned.
In addition, I think one of themany things that I learned is
(04:26):
that almost the I don't want tosay crucifixion, but the
crucifying of women for beingsingle, as if that is a defining
factor of their success orsomething we're not really given
resources about.
Like when we're kids, we're notreally given resources about
how to find the right guy, whatthe right guy means, how to
(04:48):
communicate with the right guy.
We're not allowed to go placeswhere the right guy might be
right.
But all of a sudden we'reexpected Literally we have until
you graduate, what 22, 23, andfrom 23 till 25, 27, you're
expected to meet that person,get married, have a relationship
, and then from 27 to 30, youhave a leeway, you have that
(05:12):
time to be able to do that, tohave a career, to meet that
person, to get married, and thenby 30, you're like, oh, how
could you not?
All of a sudden, it's a big badthing like that you're not
married and you don't have.
It's just, it's ridiculous.
And still there's no mercy,there's no rahmat towards or
like even the fact that people'schoice of, hey, I don't
(05:35):
prioritize this is not somethingthat I prioritize.
I don't prioritize beingmarried.
I don't feel like I'm missingout on something if, because I'm
not married right now, I ratherwait and find the right person
instead of getting married tothe wrong person and then having
a miserable life, which is avalid choice.
But people don't give them theopportunity to have that
(05:56):
conversation or that moment.
It's just we pity them or weostracize, it's just so much.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
You're so right about ostracizing people,
specifically single women in ourcommunity is big we don't do
that to men.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
Exactly, we don't do that to men and it sucks and
it's also.
I'm sorry, I don't mean to cutyou off, but it also comes from
the fact that our communityraises women to be marriage
material but it doesn't spend alot of time raising men to be
marriage material and it talksto its young girls.
(06:33):
Families talk to their younggirls more in depth about what a
wife is correct or not.
Oh, you have to learn how tocook so that you could be a good
wife.
You have to learn how to cleanso you could be a good wife.
You have to be so.
It's consistently drilled intoour youth, our girls, that they
have to do certain things to begood wives.
(06:53):
But that's not the same thingfor boys and they're not even.
Oh, it's like a good thing, oh,okay.
Oh, he decided to get married,mashallah, great.
If they ever talk to them aboutlike marriage, it's a joke.
If you listen to the highschool boys episode, it's a joke
.
Are you interested in somebody?
Even the post college men thatwe talk to their parents, don't
(07:17):
talk to them.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Right.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
They're like, they make jokes, they make references
, they try to figure it out, butit's not something that they're
perched with.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Yeah, there's no time table for them either.
And then another thing is thatthe ultimate success for the
woman is marriage, not hercareer, not the differences that
she's making the world, herproducing children and being
married is the ultimate successthat a lot of parents has a
dream.
Yeah, you got a college degreebig deal, right.
Oh yeah, just a milestone, asmall one.
(07:46):
But if you get married nowwe're talking, and I think it's
also traditionally I get wherethe parents are coming from too
and I think it's great.
But at the same time, how areyou facilitating that right,
instead of having so muchexpectation for your daughters
to find that guy or that personor that girl is, how are you
facilitating as a parent?
(08:06):
What are you doing resourcewise?
How are you making thecommunity as far as are you part
of the community?
Are you also talking to otherparents who are seeking out to
look in for a guy and then guyscan marry a girl who are younger
than them?
If he's 30, he can marry a 22year old girl.
Like it's not even like passingby no issues, like everybody
can.
Oh yeah, he's 30 and she's 22.
(08:28):
Okay, he can do that, but viceversa, that happens.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
The mom says the sisters of the guy.
They're going to eat her alive.
They're like why is he marryingto this old crow that's what
it's gonna be.
I'm just saying that's how itends.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
I really wish that we had more of the male input on
being very in depth about theissues that they were going
through, because I think that wealways talk about this, that
the women we are doing the work,we are going to therapy and we
are improving our lives,improving ourselves, we are
going up in the educationalrealm and getting those degrees,
(09:06):
but that's not necessarily thecase for a lot of our brothers
in our community.
And then the women our sistersare left with.
Do I have the painful choice ofhaving to leave the community
for a potential partner, havingall of these degrees and finding
somebody that cherishes me as aperson and takes me with my
(09:27):
degrees and with myaccomplishments, without feeling
less than without feelinginferior?
So I wished we had space forour guys.
I wished we had more resourcesfor them and to teach them that
it's not all about the money.
It's not all about just having$20,000 and then you're ready to
(09:47):
get married, having the moneyfor the wedding, because what
happens after that?
What happens after you'remarried?
Are you emotionally equipped tohandle your wife?
Are you a leader?
Are you taking leadershipclasses so that, even if the
sister is higher than you ineducation, are you man enough to
(10:08):
hold her in her space?
Are you man enough to give herthat space to grow but also not
feel inferior as well?
Speaker 3 (10:16):
If I could just add to that, I think the operational
definition of what being a manmeans has to be more than just
providing income to the family.
Our community spends a lot oftime emphasizing the income part
, the money, the finance part,of being a man.
Some of our men don'tunderstand that your masculinity
(10:39):
has nothing to do with what'sin your pocket.
Right, it's great that you canhold your own, it's great that
you have finances, but what'smore important is that is your
masculinity so fragile that ifyour wife has more income than
you, then it's not somethingthat you are proud of or
something that you have ahealthy competition about,
(11:02):
because healthy competition isgood, right, not wanting to tear
the other person down, but like, oh, my wife is doing this,
she's making this much money,inshaallah, I have to work a
little bit harder and meet herwhere she is.
That's a different mentalitythan being like, oh, my wife is
making this much, then I'm not aman, then she's emasculating me
.
But I think our whole season.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
I kept thinking that one of the episodes, bonnie, had
said they don't know if theydon't know something.
You know what I mean.
As women, like I said earlier,we've done the work.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
We have language to be like this is what it is,
because when they think of beingprepared for marriage, like you
said, it's about preparing that20K, preparing that money,
having that finance.
They don't think about theiremotional intelligence.
They don't think about theirsupport system.
They don't think about theirmasculinity and how fragile that
might be, because we don'trequire them to yeah, because
their parents have not requiredthem to.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Sometimes the girls, they don't know either, because
how important that is for themuntil they're married.
So in a prior of gettingmarried, having those emotional
intelligence conversations,they're like how does this
person show up with me, how doeshe show up with his friends,
how does he show up with hisfamily?
And how does that make me feelwhen I'm seeing how interact
with other people?
Is that something that husbandshould be having with his
(12:16):
children?
Because you can see a qualityof traits of a person while
they're functioning with otherpeople, and I think that's
another thing.
Right, like, the older you get,the more you experience, the
more you work on your healingjourney, you understand the
emotional intelligence, howimportant it is in order for you
to have a very sustainablerelationship.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
So then are we saying then to the sisters that are we
telling them that you shouldlook for somebody who has
already have the emotionalintelligence, already have the
experience and stuff like that,because sometimes that takes
years?
Yeah, me personally, when I wastrying to get married, honestly
I didn't know any of this stuffRight, and I wasn't looking for
(12:54):
somebody who was emotional,intelligent or this and this,
because I'm me myself.
I didn't know that until aftermarriage.
Then you do some work andyou're like you know what.
This is really not what I want.
I want you know A, b and C.
So what are we saying at theroot of?
So?
Speaker 2 (13:10):
I think there's two things, right, you can say about
that.
One if you can find a man whois able to have that much of
self awareness, amazing, right.
But the biggest thing I wouldsay is that a man who is willing
to be open to work on himselfin the process of self growth
and elevation and theirrelationship that's open to,
(13:31):
because I don't think everybodyhas the understanding.
Even the girl herself might notunderstand if she's getting
married at the age of 19 andhe's 22.
Right, they have to growtogether, but they're able to be
open to wanted to do those work, the classes that you mentioned
, the training of understanding.
If they can be open to do thosework, Understanding, if they
can do that together, they cango in a space that they can
(13:51):
elevate together.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
But if one person is doing the work and the other
person is not, it makes itreally hard, then we have to put
a disclaimer out there and saywe're not saying only find this
type of person and if they don'thave A, b and C, then be like
okay, he's not worth our time.
Because I think in ourcommunity and outside of the
Orem community we have thiswokeness or whatever right that
(14:16):
if he doesn't have A, b and Che's not worth their time.
You know what I mean and Ithink that's very dangerous.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
Yeah, I don't believe in build a man.
That's not me.
But then I believe in the ideathat, for example, I don't think
I also had the addiction foremotional intelligence.
So to be able to pinpoint, okay, this is what it is.
If you told me what weaponizingand competence was, or asked me
what weaponizing and competencewas, I would say I didn't know
(14:43):
five years ago, six years ago,whatever.
But what I knew is what notnecessarily the addiction, but
what that would make me feellike Right.
For example, I knew I wanted aman that wanted to grow, that
wasn't intimidated by my growth.
I wanted a man that would giveme the space to be able to be
(15:04):
100% authentically myself allthe time and that wouldn't
impede him from being 100%authentically himself.
I didn't know what that was, Ididn't know that was called
holding space, right, but I justknew that I needed that guy, I
needed to have that conversationand then also having that big
(15:25):
picture conversations and, Ithink, to go back to
systemically right, ourcommunity system has systems to
help our kids, our youth, beable to navigate the strain, to
be able to have these questionsalready answered, to be able to
ask these questions themselves.
There are other communities thathave the same expectations for
(15:49):
their women and their men whenit comes to marriage as we do,
if you think about Muslimcommunities and Somali, arab,
indian communities or whateverbut the one thing that's
different is that, for example,in the Indian community, there's
this thing called bio data,where the arranged marriages are
so normal that there are peoplethat people go to arrange their
(16:11):
marriage for them, that's theirprofession and this lady
there's also a Netflix seriesabout her that's called Indian
Matricure, but she's not theonly one, she's just one of the
famous ones.
Right, and you do the bio dataabout who you are, what you are,
what you're interested in, andso on and so forth.
Your parents take this or youtake this to this lady and she
(16:32):
finds people that have the samecommonalities as you do.
That's a resource.
You know what I mean.
But we don't have any of thosethings.
We don't have counselingclasses for our community that
are specific to our people.
We don't have this trainingcourses for our men.
We don't have training coursesfor our women, for our youth.
I feel like that should betaught.
(16:52):
If our parents are not talkingabout it, if they don't feel
comfortable to talk about it,they should take the youth to
masjid where there's like a, andthere should be right next to
it, like a relationship coursething.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
I think that falls on us right, the generation that
is educated, the generation thathas done the work, or whatever.
I feel like the onus is on usnow to say, okay, first of all
to demand it from our leadersand our masjid crews and say,
hey, this is the resource thatwe need, or figure out and
create our own resources.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
Yeah, and I think, stop making it a taboo, like I
feel like, if you notice, Iwon't even the idea of asking
going to the masjid and askingthe shacks or the owners of this
masjid to be like, hey, can youcreate this class?
I'll be more than happy to giveyou my resources as a
professional.
I'd feel some type of waybecause they're going to be like
oh, I feel like they're goingto come from me.
(17:49):
Remember, I'm sure you weretelling us a story about is it
the list?
Speaker 2 (17:56):
What was it?
Speaker 3 (17:56):
The community has completely made the whole topic
a taboo.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
Yeah, that you can't even create space and the funny
thing is, during that we broughtyouth together and we're
talking about how cultureaffects them.
Nothing, relationship wise,nothing.
We had like breakout sessionsand stuff like that.
But the whole community, themasjid crew, was like oh you
know, you guys are bringing ajinnabes together, and how would
people meet?
Yeah, I don't know.
(18:22):
All I know is we need a bettersystem and we need to demand
that.
We need a better system because, while the masjids are fighting
over who's leading and having apower trip, the community is
suffering.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Yeah, and I think also, the community needs to be
open to the nuance that we'retrying to bring, which is having
resources that would beavailable and not being afraid
of, like, reframing theirthought process around.
Okay, this is something that weknow is a taboo at one point,
but nothing is working.
(18:58):
So I'm going to go to thisevent that's going to be a host
by these people and I'm going togo check it out and I'm going
to bring my friend and the boyshas to do the same thing because
, at the end of the day, likeeverybody's getting married in
their 20s, I promise you amajority of them are getting
divorced in their late 20s.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
But that's the problem.
You say it's not a future, it'shappening now Exactly.
And people say that it's betterto just get married than make
Zinnat and stuff like that.
But the thing is that's not theonly two options.
The two options is not to getmarried recklessly without
having any prep work for themarriage or committing Zinnat.
(19:36):
That's not the two options.
There's a third option.
You are too lazy or toouncomfortable or your culture is
too close minded to investigatewhich is preparing the youth to
be able to think of marriage asa goal, as something to achieve
.
That's great, that's good forthem, but then at the same time,
to prep them to get there andso that they can stay there for
(19:58):
a long time.
It's not cool to have two,three, four divorces before
you're 40.
It doesn't make sense.
I know personally at least sixpeople.
I'm not a very social person, Idon't have a very big social
circle and I know six peoplethat about more than six people
that have gotten married soyoung and gotten divorced so
(20:19):
young.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
And it's like and it hits the girls way worse than it
does the guys Way worse yeah,it is, and it sucks, especially
if you're a single mom in ourcommunity.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Oh my gosh, that's worse than being single, that's
worse than being single.
They act like she just did iton her own.
Yeah, exactly.
Oh.
And then the idea of our menbeing interested in a single mom
if they don't have children oftheir own it's unheard of, yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
And that breaks my heart, though.
We need a cultural reframingand we need a shift.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
We do need a shift, which is why we're having this
conversation, why we're havingthis podcast and discussing all
the stuff that is taboo in thecommunity and which is why we're
having the difficultconversation that is really hard
to have and which is why we'rewilling to create a resources,
like Pani said, spaces wherepeople can come and get to know
what the challenges that theyhave, as well as trying to meet
(21:11):
other people.
Right, and I think we're doingthat.
Reforming, I think it's.
The fact is that what I sayearlier was that people in
general in from the communityneeds to accept the nuance and
being able to challenge theirperspective of the taboo
thinking, and this is what we'regoing to do now and this is
what has to be the new faces,but not being able to have
(21:31):
reservation around it, trying toprovide for the community.
As far as resource concern, weneed a lot more support from the
community to say you know what?
This is one area that ourgeneration that's going to be
born in America is going to need, so we should encourage this,
we should allow them to listento it.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
And we also need people that are professional in
the professional scene moretherapists, more social workers
to get involved and say, ok,this is one little thing that I
can do to help expand and giveback to the community, because I
think, as almost we get in thismindset of me and so or that's
too much work to do or that.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Yeah, I'm too busy with my life that is so hard
already I have no capacity forsomething else that is going to
be affecting us featurely, whichis the features already here,
actually.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
But I think, as professionals, we need to think
a little bit differently and sayOK, if I give back to the
community, this is going to notonly support only the community,
but me as well, because you arethinking of having kids, you
are thinking of getting married.
Why not provide this servicethat it's going to help the
community and also your childrenas well?
Speaker 3 (22:38):
Yeah, and I think also for the Oromo leaders not
necessarily just Muslim orleaders, but Oromo leaders to be
active, because this is notjust a Muslim or a issue, this
is an Oromo community issue.
So to get involved, to be ableto do things and create
opportunities as such, so thatour community, regardless if
(22:59):
it's Muslim or not, could havethese resources, because
everyone can benefit from them.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Yeah, so, but this has been our season of learning
about ourselves, about thecommunity, about youth
experiences in this area andunderstanding around it.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
I was just going to ask how about?
You said that you learned alittle bit about each of us
during this season.
What is one thing you guyslearned about each other?
Speaker 2 (23:26):
I learned that I think we have very different
personalities and ourpersonality works well together.
I learned that, bonnie, yourjourney, as in coming from a
disraise with incredible parents, the things that they taught
you as a person, and being theamazing, incredible young woman
that you are today the creditcard goes to them and obviously
(23:46):
Allah too, but Allah is the onethat made you, so the credit
goes to them.
And I learned that Abshidol isvery shy but at the same time
her shyness comes out with hergenerosity and love, and that is
.
Her sass and her sass.
That is very.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
Really, so it comes out.
Yes, so it's been an incredibleexperience.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
I mean people are like that's good oh okay, I
guess we actually would likethat.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Yay, we're prouled right we get this side of it.
The timid one.
Yeah, the wall Abshidol yourturn.
I think what I learned about usis just realizing, like the how
I said, that everybody has adifferent personality, has a
different life story, has adifferent experience, and I
(24:37):
think it has allowed us allowedme personally to give each other
some grace and learning whereBonnie's go getter mentality
comes from, where the obviousreserve thoughtfulness comes
from too, and just realizingthat, like whenever and I don't
know it has helped me inimproving my interaction with
(24:57):
you guys and, like I saidearlier, just giving, learning
to give each other grace.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
I laughed because Nianne Abshur had a conversation
at the spoon pool on Thursdayand she was telling me to have
grace and I was telling her thatI'm learning.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Yeah, I was telling her.
Sometimes I just want to holdyou, bonnie, and just shake you
vigorously and violence.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
See, can you add violent to her list of things?
No, I have learned.
I feel like this seasonspecifically, I have learned
that people have different modesof working, modes of speeds.
I know this sounds silly, butpeople have different.
(25:42):
Like all of us could be lookingat one thing and then
completely understanding orseeing three different things.
And my instinctual operatingsystem is very much I'm moving
and I'm assuming thateverybody's seeing what I'm
seeing, not everybody's seeingsomething different.
So I have to stop, pause andthen be like okay, what are you
(26:05):
guys seeing?
So that we can all talk aboutwhat we're seeing.
And then I've also from seasonone.
I feel like what I've learnedis that I'm taking a little bit
of grace, learning about grace,learning about patience from the
Habbe, learning about gracefrom Obshoro, learning it's not
just the podcast and materialsthat we put out there, but as a
(26:28):
self-development.
I think I've been milking offof my co-hosts and their
personalities a little bit.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
And I think the thing is that too, like when you're
working on a project with otherpeople, you have to like them if
you're going to keep working onit.
Like we've all had schoolprojects where you're just like
I'm so glad this is only for onesemester and I don't see these
idiots, but I'm happy to saythat I'm doing it with you guys.
I'm glad I'm doing it with youguys.
(26:58):
They have been moments whereit's just oh my gosh, but then
they've been amazing moments aswell.
So, and I think a lot of peopledon't realize the work behind
the scenes that it takes toproduce a podcast and to just
doing it by ourselves, withoutprofessional editors, without
professional marketers.
(27:19):
So I really appreciate all ofyou, both of you and hopefully,
inshallah, we are moving on tobigger and better things next
season, inshallah.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
We appreciate you too , sometimes, okay, hahaha.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Join the conversation in the comments section or on
our Instagram page to share withus what you think.
We do not have all the answers,and our biggest goal is to kick
off and get the conversationgoing.
May Allah SWT accept ourefforts and use us as catalysts
for change.
As-salamu alaikum, welcome to Difficult
Conversations where we tackletaboo topics in a safe space
through empowerment andeducation.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
So today we just want to do a season recap, seeing
how what our favorites episodesare and what are something that
stands out to all of usindividually.
This season we tackle a lot ofconversation, families being
single and what our familiesresponsibilities and how culture
play in love.
Those episodes really hit forme really well because we talked
(00:35):
about traditionally differentpart of automals and how we have
different ideas and culture hasplayed huge roles and different
family members and expectationsand how that contributes into
courting and meeting people.
But I do feel like there is alot of work to do.
The conversation was just astarter to bring an awareness
for people who are in similarshoes, and I also want to talk
(00:59):
about how much being single in30s are such a taboo
conversation for many women whoare amazing and accomplishing in
their fields and, at the sametime, because they have done
such a amount of healing workfor themselves to understand
what they're looking for in apartner.
It became such a hard processfor many of them and then I've
(01:22):
noticed that it resonated for alot of people that I know in my
life as well that reached out tome in saying how they related
to the episode of single and 33.
It made them realize thatthey're not alone in their
experiences, because I thinkwithin Oremo, and specifically
Muslim Oremo community, I don'tthink we talk about the
challenges of being in your 30sand still interested and desired
(01:45):
to get married, and that doorseemed to be very far fetched
because of our cultural ideasand how people overlook you.
You can be a doctor or asurgeon and be the most
incredible person in your field,because culturally it's not
really well accepted or talkedabout it or normalized around it
(02:07):
.
Girls or women who are amazingat what they do and they're like
incredible personality, wise,beautiful people, and then they
also appear to be struggling inthis area and because society,
in our society, we don't talkabout it.
I'm sure everybody who ismarried or families they have
expectation and thoseexpectations like you, should be
(02:29):
married and have kids, and whenyou don't, you look at it a
different way, and so I wouldsay this season, touching on
those topic was very engagingfor me as a person and it's
engaging for a lot of women whoare in a similar situation as
well, and I hope that's theconversation we'll continue to
have.
So, yeah, what about you,opshiro?
Speaker 1 (02:51):
I think one of the main things I took away from our
whole season is just the lackof conversation.
The lack of communication andthe lack of just people being
able to have space to talk aboutrelationship issues, having
somebody in their life just tosay, hey, this is what I'm going
through, and to be able to getconstructive guidance and kind
(03:15):
of roadmap as to where to go andwhat to do.
The fact that there is noresources in the community,
parents are not talking to theirkids about it, and just the
disparity between the guys andthe girls how they were expected
the woman to be ready formarriage and stuff like that,
and the men to just have thefinancial aspect of it.
What I took from our season andputting in all the work that we
(03:38):
did is that, first of all,there's no, just the lack of
communication around this topic,the fact that there is no
resources in the community,parents are not talking to their
kids about it, and just thedisparity between the guys and
the girls how they're like yousaid, bonnie, were expected the
woman to be ready for marriageand stuff like that, and the men
(03:59):
to just have the financialaspect of it.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
One of the many things that I learned this
season and my take away from forthis season is one the lack of
resources for our youth to dothe right thing, to go about the
right way when approaching andpursuing relationships, the lack
of communication, like Abshurahmentioned.
In addition, I think one of themany things that I learned is
(04:26):
that almost the I don't want tosay crucifixion, but the
crucifying of women for beingsingle, as if that is a defining
factor of their success orsomething we're not really given
resources about.
Like when we're kids, we're notreally given resources about
how to find the right guy, whatthe right guy means, how to
(04:48):
communicate with the right guy.
We're not allowed to go placeswhere the right guy might be
right.
But all of a sudden we'reexpected Literally we have until
you graduate, what 22, 23, andfrom 23 till 25, 27, you're
expected to meet that person,get married, have a relationship
, and then from 27 to 30, youhave a leeway, you have that
(05:12):
time to be able to do that, tohave a career, to meet that
person, to get married, and thenby 30, you're like, oh, how
could you not?
All of a sudden, it's a big badthing like that you're not
married and you don't have.
It's just, it's ridiculous.
And still there's no mercy,there's no rahmat towards or
like even the fact that people'schoice of, hey, I don't
(05:35):
prioritize this is not somethingthat I prioritize.
I don't prioritize beingmarried.
I don't feel like I'm missingout on something if, because I'm
not married right now, I ratherwait and find the right person
instead of getting married tothe wrong person and then having
a miserable life, which is avalid choice.
But people don't give them theopportunity to have that
(05:56):
conversation or that moment.
It's just we pity them or weostracize, it's just so much.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
You're so right about ostracizing people,
specifically single women in ourcommunity is big we don't do
that to men.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
Exactly, we don't do that to men and it sucks and
it's also.
I'm sorry, I don't mean to cutyou off, but it also comes from
the fact that our communityraises women to be marriage
material but it doesn't spend alot of time raising men to be
marriage material and it talksto its young girls.
(06:33):
Families talk to their younggirls more in depth about what a
wife is correct or not.
Oh, you have to learn how tocook so that you could be a good
wife.
You have to learn how to cleanso you could be a good wife.
You have to be so.
It's consistently drilled intoour youth, our girls, that they
have to do certain things to begood wives.
(06:53):
But that's not the same thingfor boys and they're not even.
Oh, it's like a good thing, oh,okay.
Oh, he decided to get married,mashallah, great.
If they ever talk to them aboutlike marriage, it's a joke.
If you listen to the highschool boys episode, it's a joke
.
Are you interested in somebody?
Even the post college men thatwe talk to their parents, don't
(07:17):
talk to them.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Right.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
They're like, they make jokes, they make references
, they try to figure it out, butit's not something that they're
perched with.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Yeah, there's no time table for them either.
And then another thing is thatthe ultimate success for the
woman is marriage, not hercareer, not the differences that
she's making the world, herproducing children and being
married is the ultimate successthat a lot of parents has a
dream.
Yeah, you got a college degreebig deal, right.
Oh yeah, just a milestone, asmall one.
(07:46):
But if you get married nowwe're talking, and I think it's
also traditionally I get wherethe parents are coming from too
and I think it's great.
But at the same time, how areyou facilitating that right,
instead of having so muchexpectation for your daughters
to find that guy or that personor that girl is, how are you
facilitating as a parent?
(08:06):
What are you doing resourcewise?
How are you making thecommunity as far as are you part
of the community?
Are you also talking to otherparents who are seeking out to
look in for a guy and then guyscan marry a girl who are younger
than them?
If he's 30, he can marry a 22year old girl.
Like it's not even like passingby no issues, like everybody
can.
Oh yeah, he's 30 and she's 22.
(08:28):
Okay, he can do that, but viceversa, that happens.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
The mom says the sisters of the guy.
They're going to eat her alive.
They're like why is he marryingto this old crow that's what
it's gonna be.
I'm just saying that's how itends.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
I really wish that we had more of the male input on
being very in depth about theissues that they were going
through, because I think that wealways talk about this, that
the women we are doing the work,we are going to therapy and we
are improving our lives,improving ourselves, we are
going up in the educationalrealm and getting those degrees,
(09:06):
but that's not necessarily thecase for a lot of our brothers
in our community.
And then the women our sistersare left with.
Do I have the painful choice ofhaving to leave the community
for a potential partner, havingall of these degrees and finding
somebody that cherishes me as aperson and takes me with my
(09:27):
degrees and with myaccomplishments, without feeling
less than without feelinginferior?
So I wished we had space forour guys.
I wished we had more resourcesfor them and to teach them that
it's not all about the money.
It's not all about just having$20,000 and then you're ready to
(09:47):
get married, having the moneyfor the wedding, because what
happens after that?
What happens after you'remarried?
Are you emotionally equipped tohandle your wife?
Are you a leader?
Are you taking leadershipclasses so that, even if the
sister is higher than you ineducation, are you man enough to
(10:08):
hold her in her space?
Are you man enough to give herthat space to grow but also not
feel inferior as well?
Speaker 3 (10:16):
If I could just add to that, I think the operational
definition of what being a manmeans has to be more than just
providing income to the family.
Our community spends a lot oftime emphasizing the income part
, the money, the finance part,of being a man.
Some of our men don'tunderstand that your masculinity
(10:39):
has nothing to do with what'sin your pocket.
Right, it's great that you canhold your own, it's great that
you have finances, but what'smore important is that is your
masculinity so fragile that ifyour wife has more income than
you, then it's not somethingthat you are proud of or
something that you have ahealthy competition about,
(11:02):
because healthy competition isgood, right, not wanting to tear
the other person down, but like, oh, my wife is doing this,
she's making this much money,inshaallah, I have to work a
little bit harder and meet herwhere she is.
That's a different mentalitythan being like, oh, my wife is
making this much, then I'm not aman, then she's emasculating me
.
But I think our whole season.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
I kept thinking that one of the episodes, bonnie, had
said they don't know if theydon't know something.
You know what I mean.
As women, like I said earlier,we've done the work.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
We have language to be like this is what it is,
because when they think of beingprepared for marriage, like you
said, it's about preparing that20K, preparing that money,
having that finance.
They don't think about theiremotional intelligence.
They don't think about theirsupport system.
They don't think about theirmasculinity and how fragile that
might be, because we don'trequire them to yeah, because
their parents have not requiredthem to.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Sometimes the girls, they don't know either, because
how important that is for themuntil they're married.
So in a prior of gettingmarried, having those emotional
intelligence conversations,they're like how does this
person show up with me, how doeshe show up with his friends,
how does he show up with hisfamily?
And how does that make me feelwhen I'm seeing how interact
with other people?
Is that something that husbandshould be having with his
(12:16):
children?
Because you can see a qualityof traits of a person while
they're functioning with otherpeople, and I think that's
another thing.
Right, like, the older you get,the more you experience, the
more you work on your healingjourney, you understand the
emotional intelligence, howimportant it is in order for you
to have a very sustainablerelationship.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
So then are we saying then to the sisters that are we
telling them that you shouldlook for somebody who has
already have the emotionalintelligence, already have the
experience and stuff like that,because sometimes that takes
years?
Yeah, me personally, when I wastrying to get married, honestly
I didn't know any of this stuffRight, and I wasn't looking for
(12:54):
somebody who was emotional,intelligent or this and this,
because I'm me myself.
I didn't know that until aftermarriage.
Then you do some work andyou're like you know what.
This is really not what I want.
I want you know A, b and C.
So what are we saying at theroot of?
So?
Speaker 2 (13:10):
I think there's two things, right, you can say about
that.
One if you can find a man whois able to have that much of
self awareness, amazing, right.
But the biggest thing I wouldsay is that a man who is willing
to be open to work on himselfin the process of self growth
and elevation and theirrelationship that's open to,
(13:31):
because I don't think everybodyhas the understanding.
Even the girl herself might notunderstand if she's getting
married at the age of 19 andhe's 22.
Right, they have to growtogether, but they're able to be
open to wanted to do those work, the classes that you mentioned
, the training of understanding.
If they can be open to do thosework, Understanding, if they
can do that together, they cango in a space that they can
(13:51):
elevate together.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
But if one person is doing the work and the other
person is not, it makes itreally hard, then we have to put
a disclaimer out there and saywe're not saying only find this
type of person and if they don'thave A, b and C, then be like
okay, he's not worth our time.
Because I think in ourcommunity and outside of the
Orem community we have thiswokeness or whatever right that
(14:16):
if he doesn't have A, b and Che's not worth their time.
You know what I mean and Ithink that's very dangerous.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
Yeah, I don't believe in build a man.
That's not me.
But then I believe in the ideathat, for example, I don't think
I also had the addiction foremotional intelligence.
So to be able to pinpoint, okay, this is what it is.
If you told me what weaponizingand competence was, or asked me
what weaponizing and competencewas, I would say I didn't know
(14:43):
five years ago, six years ago,whatever.
But what I knew is what notnecessarily the addiction, but
what that would make me feellike Right.
For example, I knew I wanted aman that wanted to grow, that
wasn't intimidated by my growth.
I wanted a man that would giveme the space to be able to be
(15:04):
100% authentically myself allthe time and that wouldn't
impede him from being 100%authentically himself.
I didn't know what that was, Ididn't know that was called
holding space, right, but I justknew that I needed that guy, I
needed to have that conversationand then also having that big
(15:25):
picture conversations and, Ithink, to go back to
systemically right, ourcommunity system has systems to
help our kids, our youth, beable to navigate the strain, to
be able to have these questionsalready answered, to be able to
ask these questions themselves.
There are other communities thathave the same expectations for
(15:49):
their women and their men whenit comes to marriage as we do,
if you think about Muslimcommunities and Somali, arab,
indian communities or whateverbut the one thing that's
different is that, for example,in the Indian community, there's
this thing called bio data,where the arranged marriages are
so normal that there are peoplethat people go to arrange their
(16:11):
marriage for them, that's theirprofession and this lady
there's also a Netflix seriesabout her that's called Indian
Matricure, but she's not theonly one, she's just one of the
famous ones.
Right, and you do the bio dataabout who you are, what you are,
what you're interested in, andso on and so forth.
Your parents take this or youtake this to this lady and she
(16:32):
finds people that have the samecommonalities as you do.
That's a resource.
You know what I mean.
But we don't have any of thosethings.
We don't have counselingclasses for our community that
are specific to our people.
We don't have this trainingcourses for our men.
We don't have training coursesfor our women, for our youth.
I feel like that should betaught.
(16:52):
If our parents are not talkingabout it, if they don't feel
comfortable to talk about it,they should take the youth to
masjid where there's like a, andthere should be right next to
it, like a relationship coursething.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
I think that falls on us right, the generation that
is educated, the generation thathas done the work, or whatever.
I feel like the onus is on usnow to say, okay, first of all
to demand it from our leadersand our masjid crews and say,
hey, this is the resource thatwe need, or figure out and
create our own resources.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
Yeah, and I think, stop making it a taboo, like I
feel like, if you notice, Iwon't even the idea of asking
going to the masjid and askingthe shacks or the owners of this
masjid to be like, hey, can youcreate this class?
I'll be more than happy to giveyou my resources as a
professional.
I'd feel some type of waybecause they're going to be like
oh, I feel like they're goingto come from me.
(17:49):
Remember, I'm sure you weretelling us a story about is it
the list?
Speaker 2 (17:56):
What was it?
Speaker 3 (17:56):
The community has completely made the whole topic
a taboo.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
Yeah, that you can't even create space and the funny
thing is, during that we broughtyouth together and we're
talking about how cultureaffects them.
Nothing, relationship wise,nothing.
We had like breakout sessionsand stuff like that.
But the whole community, themasjid crew, was like oh you
know, you guys are bringing ajinnabes together, and how would
people meet?
Yeah, I don't know.
(18:22):
All I know is we need a bettersystem and we need to demand
that.
We need a better system because, while the masjids are fighting
over who's leading and having apower trip, the community is
suffering.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Yeah, and I think also, the community needs to be
open to the nuance that we'retrying to bring, which is having
resources that would beavailable and not being afraid
of, like, reframing theirthought process around.
Okay, this is something that weknow is a taboo at one point,
but nothing is working.
(18:58):
So I'm going to go to thisevent that's going to be a host
by these people and I'm going togo check it out and I'm going
to bring my friend and the boyshas to do the same thing because
, at the end of the day, likeeverybody's getting married in
their 20s, I promise you amajority of them are getting
divorced in their late 20s.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
But that's the problem.
You say it's not a future, it'shappening now Exactly.
And people say that it's betterto just get married than make
Zinnat and stuff like that.
But the thing is that's not theonly two options.
The two options is not to getmarried recklessly without
having any prep work for themarriage or committing Zinnat.
(19:36):
That's not the two options.
There's a third option.
You are too lazy or toouncomfortable or your culture is
too close minded to investigatewhich is preparing the youth to
be able to think of marriage asa goal, as something to achieve
.
That's great, that's good forthem, but then at the same time,
to prep them to get there andso that they can stay there for
(19:58):
a long time.
It's not cool to have two,three, four divorces before
you're 40.
It doesn't make sense.
I know personally at least sixpeople.
I'm not a very social person, Idon't have a very big social
circle and I know six peoplethat about more than six people
that have gotten married soyoung and gotten divorced so
(20:19):
young.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
And it's like and it hits the girls way worse than it
does the guys Way worse yeah,it is, and it sucks, especially
if you're a single mom in ourcommunity.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Oh my gosh, that's worse than being single, that's
worse than being single.
They act like she just did iton her own.
Yeah, exactly.
Oh.
And then the idea of our menbeing interested in a single mom
if they don't have children oftheir own it's unheard of, yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
And that breaks my heart, though.
We need a cultural reframingand we need a shift.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
We do need a shift, which is why we're having this
conversation, why we're havingthis podcast and discussing all
the stuff that is taboo in thecommunity and which is why we're
having the difficultconversation that is really hard
to have and which is why we'rewilling to create a resources,
like Pani said, spaces wherepeople can come and get to know
what the challenges that theyhave, as well as trying to meet
(21:11):
other people.
Right, and I think we're doingthat.
Reforming, I think it's.
The fact is that what I sayearlier was that people in
general in from the communityneeds to accept the nuance and
being able to challenge theirperspective of the taboo
thinking, and this is what we'regoing to do now and this is
what has to be the new faces,but not being able to have
(21:31):
reservation around it, trying toprovide for the community.
As far as resource concern, weneed a lot more support from the
community to say you know what?
This is one area that ourgeneration that's going to be
born in America is going to need, so we should encourage this,
we should allow them to listento it.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
And we also need people that are professional in
the professional scene moretherapists, more social workers
to get involved and say, ok,this is one little thing that I
can do to help expand and giveback to the community, because I
think, as almost we get in thismindset of me and so or that's
too much work to do or that.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Yeah, I'm too busy with my life that is so hard
already I have no capacity forsomething else that is going to
be affecting us featurely, whichis the features already here,
actually.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
But I think, as professionals, we need to think
a little bit differently and sayOK, if I give back to the
community, this is going to notonly support only the community,
but me as well, because you arethinking of having kids, you
are thinking of getting married.
Why not provide this servicethat it's going to help the
community and also your childrenas well?
Speaker 3 (22:38):
Yeah, and I think also for the Oromo leaders not
necessarily just Muslim orleaders, but Oromo leaders to be
active, because this is notjust a Muslim or a issue, this
is an Oromo community issue.
So to get involved, to be ableto do things and create
opportunities as such, so thatour community, regardless if
(22:59):
it's Muslim or not, could havethese resources, because
everyone can benefit from them.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Yeah, so, but this has been our season of learning
about ourselves, about thecommunity, about youth
experiences in this area andunderstanding around it.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
I was just going to ask how about?
You said that you learned alittle bit about each of us
during this season.
What is one thing you guyslearned about each other?
Speaker 2 (23:26):
I learned that I think we have very different
personalities and ourpersonality works well together.
I learned that, bonnie, yourjourney, as in coming from a
disraise with incredible parents, the things that they taught
you as a person, and being theamazing, incredible young woman
that you are today the creditcard goes to them and obviously
(23:46):
Allah too, but Allah is the onethat made you, so the credit
goes to them.
And I learned that Abshidol isvery shy but at the same time
her shyness comes out with hergenerosity and love, and that is
.
Her sass and her sass.
That is very.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
Really, so it comes out.
Yes, so it's been an incredibleexperience.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
I mean people are like that's good oh okay, I
guess we actually would likethat.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Yay, we're prouled right we get this side of it.
The timid one.
Yeah, the wall Abshidol yourturn.
I think what I learned about usis just realizing, like the how
I said, that everybody has adifferent personality, has a
different life story, has adifferent experience, and I
(24:37):
think it has allowed us allowedme personally to give each other
some grace and learning whereBonnie's go getter mentality
comes from, where the obviousreserve thoughtfulness comes
from too, and just realizingthat, like whenever and I don't
know it has helped me inimproving my interaction with
(24:57):
you guys and, like I saidearlier, just giving, learning
to give each other grace.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
I laughed because Nianne Abshur had a conversation
at the spoon pool on Thursdayand she was telling me to have
grace and I was telling her thatI'm learning.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Yeah, I was telling her.
Sometimes I just want to holdyou, bonnie, and just shake you
vigorously and violence.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
See, can you add violent to her list of things?
No, I have learned.
I feel like this seasonspecifically, I have learned
that people have different modesof working, modes of speeds.
I know this sounds silly, butpeople have different.
(25:42):
Like all of us could be lookingat one thing and then
completely understanding orseeing three different things.
And my instinctual operatingsystem is very much I'm moving
and I'm assuming thateverybody's seeing what I'm
seeing, not everybody's seeingsomething different.
So I have to stop, pause andthen be like okay, what are you
(26:05):
guys seeing?
So that we can all talk aboutwhat we're seeing.
And then I've also from seasonone.
I feel like what I've learnedis that I'm taking a little bit
of grace, learning about grace,learning about patience from the
Habbe, learning about gracefrom Obshoro, learning it's not
just the podcast and materialsthat we put out there, but as a
(26:28):
self-development.
I think I've been milking offof my co-hosts and their
personalities a little bit.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
And I think the thing is that too, like when you're
working on a project with otherpeople, you have to like them if
you're going to keep working onit.
Like we've all had schoolprojects where you're just like
I'm so glad this is only for onesemester and I don't see these
idiots, but I'm happy to saythat I'm doing it with you guys.
I'm glad I'm doing it with youguys.
(26:58):
They have been moments whereit's just oh my gosh, but then
they've been amazing moments aswell.
So, and I think a lot of peopledon't realize the work behind
the scenes that it takes toproduce a podcast and to just
doing it by ourselves, withoutprofessional editors, without
professional marketers.
(27:19):
So I really appreciate all ofyou, both of you and hopefully,
inshallah, we are moving on tobigger and better things next
season, inshallah.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
We appreciate you too , sometimes, okay, hahaha.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Join the conversation in the comments section or on
our Instagram page to share withus what you think.
We do not have all the answers,and our biggest goal is to kick
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May Allah SWT accept ourefforts and use us as catalysts
for change.
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