November 20, 2024 • 57 mins
In this episode of Digication Scholars Conversations, host Kelly Driscoll chats with Bill Torgerson, a lecturer in Rhetoric and Composition at Appalachian State University.
Bill shares insights on his innovative use of Digication for student ePortfolios, the importance of digital spaces in writing, and how they foster community and creativity among students.
The discussion also touches on Bill’s journey to App State, his passion for writing and teaching, and his experiences as a basketball coach, illustrating how his coaching philosophy influences his teaching methods.
Hurricane Helene's impact on the University and the community was devastating. Use the donation link in our show notes to support Bill's community: https://today.appstate.edu/2024/10/11/relief-fund
Other Donation Resources, Valle Crucis Community Park: https://vallecrucispark.org/
Visit Bill's website here: https://thetorg.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to DigicationScholars Conversations.
I'm your host, Kelly Driscoll.
In this episode, you'll hear part oneof my conversation with Bill Torgerson,
a lecturer in Rhetoric and Compositionat Appalachian State University.
My conversation with Bill tookplace before Hurricane Helene, which
has had devastating effects on thecampus and surrounding communities.
(00:23):
We have included donation informationin the show notes for the App
State Disaster Relief Fund and therestoration of the treasured Valle
Crucis Park in Bill's neighborhood.
More links and information about today'sconversation can be found on Digication's
Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.
Full episodes of Digication ScholarsConversations can be found on YouTube
(00:46):
and your favorite podcast app.
Welcome to DigicationScholars Conversations.
I'm your host, Kelly Driscoll,and I'm so excited today to
introduce you to Bill Torgerson.
Bill is a lecturer in Rhetoric andComposition at Appalachian State
University in North Carolina.
(01:09):
Welcome, Bill.
Thanks, I'm very impressed that younailed the Appalachian pronunciation.
Oh, well, I've been corrected before.
When I came, I was in New York before Icame, uh, to Boone, and they let me know
right away that I was saying it wrong, so.
Yeah.
Well done.
Well, thank you.
I appreciate that.
I, I tend to kind of go back and forthbecause even though I grew up not
(01:33):
far away up in Stanton, Virginia, wesay it a little differently there.
So I, I got corrected right away.
I think actually on a prior podcastwith one of your colleagues.
So it's all fun.
It's all fun.
Um, so I know Bill, you've been usingDigication for quite a long time.
(01:54):
And I, I look forward to hearingabout how you got started with
that and how you're using it today.
But before we start talking abouttechnology, um, I'd love to hear a
little bit about how you find your,how you found your way to App State.
Yeah, well, one thing I, I like tosay that I live in Boone on purpose.
(02:15):
Um, So we, you know, made somesacrifices and some drastic moves
to get, uh, to the Boone area.
I think, um, if I back up, um,I went to graduate school in
Georgia and was really bent andfocused on being a Creative Writer.
(02:35):
Um, so I have an MFA in Creative Writing.
And I, and all I really wanted todo is become a better Writer and
didn't have career aspirations.
Like I want to be a professor.
Um, but then as I worked on theMFA, I realized, Oh, there could
be some college Teaching jobs.
Uh, I applied for jobs all over thecountry, probably like 75 jobs had
something like four interviews and thejob I ended up accepting was at St.
(02:57):
John's university.
Um, and so we had a lot of academicfreedom, but one of the kind of direct
orders we had was you will use Digication.
Um, and you will have a portfolio.
Um, so that was justsort of thrust upon me.
Um, and it wasn't long untilI really began to value, um,
(03:19):
just writing in digital spaces.
I thought as a teacher of writing,if we're not working in digital
spaces, what are we doing?
Um, so that was exciting andthat engaged the students.
And so with that little nugget I'llbe like, being made to do something
that really grew into the othertool that I've used ever since.
Oh, thank you so much for sharing that.
(03:39):
I was just kind of curious with theteaching that you're doing now, and the
kind of students that you're working with.
Do you have a lot of studentsthat are coming in to, just
you know, for their love and appreciationof the, the craft of writing and a
similar kind of mindset that, that youwere in, or do you have a lot of people
(04:02):
that are already kind of thinking aboutwhat am I going to do after college?
Well, so at App State, um, wehave something called the Vertical
Writing Curriculum, which is oneof the exciting things about being
here in that the students havefour required writing classes.
Throughout their time as an undergraduate.
So I teach in that program.
And so people are taking aclass that they have to take.
(04:25):
Um, so no, most of my studentswalk into the classroom saying.
I thought I tested out of this.
Why do I have to take this in my major?
Um, and so one of the early goalsfor me is just to kind of shift that
attitude a little bit more towardsthe positive and help them experience
writing as something that's pleasurable.
(04:47):
And I tend to not have a verydifficult time of doing that.
They have a lot ofchoices about their work.
Um, and one of the thingsthat's really guided me.
for decades is the ideathat it's fun to make stuff.
And so, and so, uh, a ...port, a digitalportfolio is something that you're making.
(05:07):
And so once students startengaging in that, uh, they start
to forget that they're doing workand because they're working on
something they've chosen to work on.
Um, Enthusiasm starts to grow.
So it's been a really useful, uh,tool for me to kind of engage students
and get them excited about writing.
Oh, that's wonderful.
And, you know, it's always beenour kind of hope that Instructors
(05:34):
and students will approach it asits own kind of space for creation.
You know, certainly people can uploaddocuments and, and files, but we're
always hoping that they really useit as that kind of opportunity for
creating and building and exploring.
(05:56):
So when you're introducing studentsto this kind of digital space,
how do you describe it to them?
What are some of the earlyconversations that you have with
them about how it's going to be used?
I've heard you talk before justabout like process portfolios
or more polished portfolios.
(06:17):
So we, we, for example, useGoogle docs as a place to draft.
And we talk about, uh, wecall them "aPortfolios".
We brand everything with anA at App State, so, Mm-Hmm.
. So we, no, I still, I have toremind them that, you know,
these are electronic portfolios.
No one else is gonna call thisan aPort when you leave here.
Um, but we, we think about,uh, publishing to the aPort.
(06:39):
Yeah.
And we do that, um, as we go, whichI think is, it's not even like
convincing them, it's, we've got thisdraft of this piece we've been working
on, and now we're gonna publish it.
To this space, which, you know, it waskind of like your own personal website.
Um, and so we decide todo that together in class.
And so they leave the class, you know,one third started, or, or they've at
(07:01):
least sort of had an introduction to itbecause we've all worked on that together.
So, and then it's.
I think a good sign is that, um,it's a space where the students
do way more than that's required.
So, you know, I lay out, uh,you know, a grading guide.
Here's the expectations for whatyou're going to do in this space.
You know, two images, there'scaptions, embed video, use
(07:22):
some links, whatever it is.
Uh, and they always go overboard.
There's always more, more ofeverything that I asked for.
So that's always a good signwhen students work far beyond the
expectations of the assignment Yeah.
And so how do you Kind of prepare themfor what the expectations will be.
You mentioned that there's some kind ofrequirements in the beginning about what
(07:46):
kind of content that they might upload,but how, how are they actually graded
or assessed as part of your course?
Cause that's a question that we oftenget, you know, are there specific
kinds of rubrics that you used?
Are peers involved in lookingat each other's materials?
(08:08):
How do you kind of let them knowwhat those expectations are?
So it would be yes to all of those things.
Um, and then to start tobreak it down a little bit.
Um, it's a little bit more, Ithink, of a labor based approach.
Uh, probably not purely that, butall that means is, um, I'm asking
for these, things to be part ofthe composition of your text.
(08:32):
And if they're there, you get the credit.
And if they're not there,you don't get the credit.
Um, you can always revise whatyou've done for a better grade as
long as the course is still going.
Um, so it's, it's almost likeyou get a temporary score.
So it's things like word count andnumber of images, um, use of space, use
of color, um, captions on the images.
(08:57):
So that's kind of what we talk about.
Um, and then we use, um, something calledas you learn, which is a Moodle, whatever,
it's a Learning Management System andyou can create custom grading guides.
Um, and so it's always just like,you know, three to five categories,
like I just said, images, use of,uh, internal citations, use of
(09:20):
space, use of color, design is a bigcategory, is one of the categories.
So I score that and I writethem a note at the bottom.
Which sort of engages with theirideas and content, but also says,
Hey, you lost three points becauseyou forgot your captions or you just
threw your three images on the bottom.
If you want to move those back,integrate those into the text, then,
you know, this can be a better grade.
So that's, that's sort of thegrading, grading assessment part.
(09:42):
Um, and then, you know, the challenge,whether it's an online class, a hybrid
class or solely face to face class,um, you know, one of the things I
take pride in is creating community.
I used to have this professor thatalways said, Sam Watson at UNC
Charlotte, he would always say, Writingfloats on a sea of conversation.
And so I'm trying to shiftstudents out of error finding.
(10:06):
Let's just talk to each other.
Let's be a thoughtful, engagedaudience for each other.
And that will take, you know, we don't,we don't need to point out mistakes.
It's just like, Hey Kelly, I'm Bill.
You're getting to know me.
I'm listening to you.
I have questions about what you're doing.
And so that kind of interaction amongthe students, um, it motivates them.
It gives them a sense of audience.
It helps them write more effectively.
(10:27):
Because they can imagine whatthey need to say to each other.
Um, and so we have forums inour learning management system.
Where we comment in the forumabout each other's portfolios.
Nice.
Nice.
And how often are they kind oflooking at each other's work?
Are they looking at someof the early drafts?
(10:48):
Do you have them focus moreon some of the final versions?
How do you kind of get the workon building that community as
part of sharing their work?
We, I mean, I think one of the firstthings we do, which takes a little
bit of time, but seems worth it tome, um, is that we write an academic
profile to start, uh, the course.
(11:10):
So, um, you know, if you were, if you'rewriting a profile for a dating website,
which I've never done, um, cause I'mold and happily married for a long time.
Um, you know, that wouldbe a different audience.
Like what you would say in thatprofile would be different.
But here we are at App State andyou have a major and you have
professors and you have classmates.
Um, so that profile is different,so that automatically gets
(11:33):
us thinking about audience.
Um, so we do some pre writing, we keepa, a digital journal that I call a day
book after somebody like Donald Murray.
Um, so we do that in a doc, so wehave pre writing, we write drafts,
we comment on each other's drafts.
Um, we publish to Digication,and then I do take what usually
(11:55):
is two full class periods.
For students to give like a fiveminute about me presentation, um, where
it's like, Oh, you live in Raleigh.
I went to high school in Raleigh.
Where did you go?
So, so just automatically there'sall this conversation that sparks up.
Oh, you're an EMT.
I'm an EMT.
Oh, you're, you work at the Ski School.
I w...
(12:15):
i, you know, whateverit is that's going on.
So all these connections are builtwithin the first couple of weeks.
And then we just repeat that kind ofcycle through all of our projects for
the course of a semester, where it'slike pre-writing, stop and talk to each
other, check in on drafts, publish,look at each other's publications.
And then I always, you know, I'm notgoing to copy everything you do, Kelly.
(12:37):
But when I look at your portfolio, I getideas for myself, like, Oh, I see what
she did and this is what I want to do.
Um, and that's that kind of writingfloats on a sea of conversation piece.
Nice.
Nice.
Yeah.
Do you find that students oftenget inspired by some of the design
elements of the content thatthey're creating at that time?
(12:58):
Sure, it's both.
I mean, it's, it's, there are somestudents that are just self motivated
and excited to experiment and can'twait to learn from each other.
And then there's other people, and maybesometimes you can be each of these people,
you're like, oh, I need to step up mygame because I just saw Kelly's portfolio.
It's incredible.
I just copied and pasted abunch of text into one box.
(13:21):
Um, I need to do better than this.
So, so it works both ways.
I mean, I'm not trying to shame peopleinto working harder, but, um, they just
do it themselves, they see it and theyget motivated, uh, because of the work,
uh, of their classmates sometimes.
So it works in all kinds of ways.
That's great.
Yeah.
So healthy...
Healthy, pure motivation.
And really when we were creatingDigication, uh, a lot of it came out of,
(13:45):
Both, uh, my experience and the experienceof Digication's co founder, Jeff Yan.
Uh, because when we were incollege, we were at a design school
where we're always working inthis kind of studio environment.
So from the very beginning of receivinga kind of prompt from an instructor, you
(14:08):
know, other people were walking aroundviewing what you were creating and, you
It was kind of impossible to not getinspired by other people that were in
the room and instructors would kind ofwander through and give little desk crits
and feedback as you were building things,um, classmates would come by and, you
(14:34):
know, sometimes give you props or ideas.
And it was a very, um, wonderfulkind of experience and so
different from what we had done,you know, coming up through K-12.
So it was really eye opening and exciting.
And so when we were creatingthis kind of environment for
students, we really wanted.
(14:56):
There to be that kind of opportunity,but now in a, in a digital space.
So, it's wonderful to hear thatyour students are doing that.
When you were a freshman in college,when you were heading off to college, um,
and we both have, I think, 18 year olds.
We do.
What did you think the arc ofyour life was going to be then?
Did you know?
(15:16):
Did you think you know?
I would imagine it shifted.
I wouldn't think you thought you weregoing to be the co founder of Digication
when you were 18, but maybe you didn't.
Absolutely not!
Absolutely not.
And this is something that wetalked to the kids about a lot here.
You know, I do have a senior and, uh,two sophomores and also some little guys.
(15:38):
And we talk a lot about how, you know,you may have some ideas in mind about
your future trajectory, but you know,the people you meet and the places you
go and the different experiences that youhave will certainly kind of shift things
and, um, carry you on different paths.
(16:01):
And yeah, when I started college, uh,I actually majored in textile design
and, um, had just kind of fallen inlove with, uh, painting on fabric, uh,
in my little corner of the basementin the home that I grew up in.
(16:22):
And so when I got into this,
That's where I went, but, um, uh,the, um, kind of foundation year
at Rhode Island School of Designwas just, like, so transformative.
So even though I stayed in that pathof textile design, my, like, whole
(16:44):
vision of art making and drawing andpainting and, I mean, it just opened
up a totally different world to me.
I had no intention at all of even takingcomputer classes, but I happened to fall
into one that, um, yeah, just shiftedmy path and, um, also didn't plan to
(17:10):
become any kind of, uh, teacher andthen started teaching at the school
that I went to after graduation.
And from there startedbuilding tools for my students.
So you just.
You just don't know where things aregonna are gonna take you and I'm sure
as an educator you love working withstudents kind of for that reason right
(17:34):
you're kind of catching them at thiskind of moment in time where they've
got ideas and you can kind of I rememberI think when you know when I I think
first knew about Digication and metJeff, I don't know, 15 or 20 years ago.
It seemed like there was a sense ofyou saying to yourselves, we need
(17:55):
something better than what we have here.
And so then you started to work oncreating a space that would be better
for, uh, you know, art, creativeminded students to have a space
to, um, put what they were making.
Yeah, yeah, and it really did start assomething I was teaching in the education
(18:15):
program at the time that we startedbuilding this and it was called the
Digital Media Design Studio, but it wasfor you know people that were preparing
to become future art educators And manyof my students had, you know, ideas about
(18:39):
what that meant and may or may not haveused, um, computers to make art or, um,
create lesson plans and curriculum maps.
So there's kind of a combination of,you know, tools that we were using and
the portfolio at the time was somethingthat, you know, was definitely used for
(19:02):
kind of creating that showcase of art.
But within that education program wasreally about capturing their experience
throughout their time at the programand the program was using it to give
them feedback and Kind of track progresstoward those professional practice,
(19:22):
teaching standards, and really alsowanted it to be something that they could
take with them to use after graduationfor their own career advancement.
So, you know, I was really trying tomodel a lot of things for the students
at the time and the way that I wasusing technology in the classroom and
(19:42):
the, the learning management systemsweren't going to cut it because
it wasn't something that I just.
for an individual course.
It was really something that wasgoing to be, you know, something
that they were going to touchthroughout their time at the program
and then continue to have access to.
And so, yeah, Jeff and I werejust like, well, let's just
(20:04):
build something for our students.
You know, we're notfinding the right kind of.
environment.
And, you know, we innocently embarkedon that thinking we were going to be
working on it for a weekend or so.
And, you know, over 20 yearslater, now here we are.
(20:26):
But you really were, you know, using itin a, in some of the early stages of the
platform and you've seen it kind of evolveover the last, you know, 10-plus years,
um, what are, have there been any shifts?
(20:47):
You know, you mentioned thatit was just kind of thrust
upon you when you joined App.
State.
Have, have there, has there been someevolution in kind of how you use it or
maybe some of the, you know, changesin the platform that may have, you
know, given you other opportunities.
Yeah, I mean, the first thing I wouldsay is going all the way back to St.
(21:08):
John's, St.
John's is the spot in Queenswhere it was thrust upon me.
Um, you know, the guy, the guywho was directing the program
then, his name is Derek Owens, youprobably know him or remember him.
So, you know, when I hear you talk aboutum, your life as an artist, I can see
why You and Jeff appealed to Derek.
I mean, it would make a lot of sense.
I mean, he has that same, Ithink, kind of perspective.
(21:31):
Um, so the, the platform has justgotten much, much more intuitive to use.
Um, where, you know, I think the learningcurve to like popping on there and making
stuff is, you know, much more simple thanit was, of course, 15 or 20 years ago.
Um, and so, uh, I think just theonly thing that's sort of been
(21:52):
evolving It's just the constantchange of technology, right?
Um, Yeah.
Whereas, I mean, I like, we talk aboutdiscourses, groups of, with common goals
and specialized language and so forth.
Um, and sometimes the students, like,don't get how discourses change.
But, you know, I started teaching in 1995.
I didn't have an email account.
(22:12):
There was no internet.
No one had a cell phone.
So, of course, like, the waysthat teaching has changed.
Writing has changed since the mid 90s.
Um, so that's sort of what I thinkof, but, um, just the, and then maybe
the students tend to be, um, they're,they very willingly engage and they're
(22:33):
thoughtful and they ask me questionsof things that I haven't thought of.
Um, so, you know, we continue tohave really good experiences around.
The digital space and Digicationis where we do most of that.
That's wonderful.
Do you know, as your students are kindof publishing their writing, do you find
(22:54):
that they have Um, already comfort inthat kind of process of sharing, or do you
have students that, you know, maybe feelcomfortable sharing things with you and
their peers, but may not want to open itup beyond that particular course or share
(23:18):
it with audiences outside of the school,what, what's your kind of feeling from the
students that you're working with today?
Yeah, I think what I think of.
You know, if I ask myself, why Digication?
Um, I mean, I think the, the ability totoggle the privacy settings and to create
and do some of that work and not feellike it's out on Google immediately, at
(23:41):
least, or out on a social media platform.
Um, that's certainly one of the values.
But then I think, Totally guessing,you know, 85, 90 percent of my students
are totally fine and immediately eager.
And in fact, um, make themselvesreally vulnerable really quickly
to the point where I'm like, Ooh,you got, you really brought it.
(24:04):
Um, but, and then there are others who,um, and I always introduce, you know,
you can make this private, privateto me, sort of go over the settings.
There are usually, you know.
One to four students in a group of 80who, who prefer to keep it much more
private or, and then there's alwayslike, You know, I do require images,
(24:26):
but I don't require an image of you.
You know, it can be your dog, itcan be a flower, it can be the
clouds, it can be the view, whatever.
So, students, there is a varietyof what they choose as far as
making things public or private.
Yeah, yeah.
And we do find more and more, and thisis something that, you know, certainly
(24:48):
in the earlier days of Digication wehadn't planned for, but you mentioned
that there's this importance of buildingcommunity within your classroom and
among the students that you're workingwith and that you're finding that
(25:09):
sometimes students are kind of usingthis space within Digication to You
know talk about things that are maybemore kind of personal in nature You know
information about themselves or theirexperiences how that's impacted them
(25:32):
Um, and I think, you know, a big driverbehind that seems to be students really
valuing the opportunity to share in orderto find connection and find community
within the institutions that they're in.
(25:53):
And I was curious if you've seen Youknow, throughout the time that you've
been using that is that something thatyou feel has kind of grown over time um,
I know sometimes if The spaces are justused as kind of a showcase of final works.
(26:14):
We see some of that less often, butif it is used as that kind of creation
space, the kind of human behind thecontent starts to emerge and why
they're You know, creating the thingsthat they are starts to emerge.
So I was just kind of curious fromyour perspective, if that seems
like something that has been kind ofevolving along with the, with the times.
(26:38):
Yeah.
I like your phrase humanbehind the content.
Um, so, you know, if, if we'reinteracting with just a learning
management system and it's justlike your name in black and white.
Letters with text and you're turning inassignments, um, the human behind the
text, it's more difficult for that personto emerge whereas when I'm, when I'm
(27:01):
clicking on, um, one thing I really likeabout the electronic portfolios is when
I'm looking at a student's piece, um, alltheir other pieces are right there too.
So that, that academic profilethat we mentioned, you know, I,
if I'm, if I'm teaching 3 onlineclasses and that's 70-ish students.
(27:21):
Um, I'm able to pop over tothat about me and just quickly
remind myself, who is this?
Um, in a way that I can't do ifI'm looking at one assignment
in a Learning Management System.
I think something I've noticed aboutthe students, maybe in the last
five years or so, is just a newlevel of thoughtfulness about...
Digital spaces.
(27:42):
More so in, in fact, you know, morecritical of that space, a little
bit more reluctant to go there.
Not necessarily reluctant to useDigication, but more likely to say,
you know, I don't have any socialmedia accounts, which I would have
seen maybe seven or eight years ago.
And also maybe, you know, Ihave two teenagers at home,
(28:03):
probably more thoughtful.
Then they are also.
So I think just something about whetherit's apps, you know, leaving your house
and showing up in Boone and going to App.
State, um, just being a little bitmore thoughtful about what online
spaces they engage in and more likelyto say, um, you know, I limit my
social media to this and this and thistime, and I'm making sure I'm hiking
(28:26):
and I'm going out on the parkway.
And so I do see like, almostlike a new generation of.
of more thoughtful, less reluctant usersof, um, just social media, for example.
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
I mean, they've really just grownup so immersed in, you know, well,
(28:48):
many of them having a phone right infront of them from the very beginning.
And I think you're right that, um, youknow, they're Making more choices about,
you know, the amount of time that theyspend on certain platforms and what the,
um, the value add is for them and theirexperience and everything else that they
(29:14):
want to be able to spend their time doing.
And, um, You know, I think in thebeginning as these, uh, new tech,
the new technologies were kind ofcoming into play in education context,
that there, there was kind of a,a newness and a, a freshness and.
Um, the way that people may have beenposting things, um, and there's a lot
(29:41):
of competition for our attention now.
So it has to be kind of deliberate inwhere they're choosing to spend their
time and, and what they're sharingand who they're sharing it with.
And you mentioned earlier, there areconversations with them a little bit
about audience and Are you talkingto them at all about, um, how this is
(30:07):
something that they could use aftergraduation, um, with their alumni
access, ways that they could shareit with people outside of the school?
Sure.
So they're usually sophomores.
Um, so they're a littleways down the road.
(30:28):
We definitely just talk about the idea ofa portfolio in the history of a portfolio.
Uh, even if it was physical, um,and what they might potentially use.
We also talk a lot about, um, knownaudiences and unknown audiences.
And that often, you know, if you're, ifyou're posting something on TikTok, um,
(30:51):
or you're posting something on your, um,portfolio, you know, there are people,
you know, are going to look at it.
But there's also people who are goingto read it and never thought about it.
So we, we, we talk about that.
Um, and then we, and of course, Imean, for example, that you said you
taught in the education department,they're all really conscious of the
fact that they're going to be creatinga portfolio, um, to be used later.
(31:15):
Others.
And, and I guess another thing thatcomes up and a reason that I list as 'Why
Digication?' Um, it's because we're, mystudents are almost all using Digication.
If you ask me for a letter ofrecommendation two years, three years,
four years after I've had you, it'sso easy for me just to search for your
(31:35):
name and, and immediately be immersedin your work as opposed to like looking
all, you know, do you still havethat link to that portfolio made on
this platform that no one else used?
So it really reduces like, um,kind of the work, the work involved
in conjuring all that stuff up.
So that's something that,um, I find useful about it.
(31:57):
Oh, good.
Good.
Yeah.
I don't know if I've hadsomeone mentioned that before,
but that makes a lot of sense.
I'm sure as soon as you see thatportfolio, you can kind of remember
the, um, the person and you havethat immediate access to the work
that they created within your course.
Um, and you mentioned that most ofthem are sophomores in the, um, in
(32:21):
Rhetoric and Composition at App State.
Are there other courses where the studentsmay be utilizing this technology again?
Yeah, so that's, um, certainly within,um, the Vertical Writing Curriculum,
um, so they could easily use it intheir required 1000 level class.
Mine's called 2001 WritingAcross the Curriculum.
(32:44):
So they, they, there arestudents come to my class.
Some of them having used Digication.
Um, it's a little bit more of anunknown once they, once they leave the
Vertical Writing Curriculum and go out.
into whatever their majors are.
I really, it's hard for me to say.
I, you know, I don't know.
Here's a preview of what's coming upnext in part two of my conversation
(33:07):
with Bill Torgerson, a lecturerin Rhetoric and Composition at
Appalachian State University.
You know, the ability to learn content,the ability to present the content
in an engaging way that makes iteasily digestible to the audience,
whether it's a player or a student.
Um, those are really importantin both of those spaces and
(33:27):
probably strengths of mine.
Welcome to DigicationScholars Conversations.
I'm your host, Kelly Driscoll.
In this episode, you'll hear part oneof my conversation with Bill Torgerson,
a lecturer in Rhetoric and Compositionat Appalachian State University.
My conversation with Bill tookplace before Hurricane Helene, which
has had devastating effects on thecampus and surrounding communities.
(00:23):
We have included donation informationin the show notes for the App
State Disaster Relief Fund and therestoration of the treasured Valle
Crucis Park in Bill's neighborhood.
More links and information about today'sconversation can be found on Digication's
Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.
Full episodes of Digication ScholarsConversations can be found on YouTube
(00:46):
and your favorite podcast app.
Welcome to DigicationScholars Conversations.
I'm your host, Kelly Driscoll,and I'm so excited today to
introduce you to Bill Torgerson.
Bill is a lecturer in Rhetoric andComposition at Appalachian State
University in North Carolina.
(01:09):
Welcome, Bill.
Thanks, I'm very impressed that younailed the Appalachian pronunciation.
Oh, well, I've been corrected before.
When I came, I was in New York before Icame, uh, to Boone, and they let me know
right away that I was saying it wrong, so.
Yeah.
Well done.
Well, thank you.
I appreciate that.
I, I tend to kind of go back and forthbecause even though I grew up not
(01:33):
far away up in Stanton, Virginia, wesay it a little differently there.
So I, I got corrected right away.
I think actually on a prior podcastwith one of your colleagues.
So it's all fun.
It's all fun.
Um, so I know Bill, you've been usingDigication for quite a long time.
(01:54):
And I, I look forward to hearingabout how you got started with
that and how you're using it today.
But before we start talking abouttechnology, um, I'd love to hear a
little bit about how you find your,how you found your way to App State.
Yeah, well, one thing I, I like tosay that I live in Boone on purpose.
(02:15):
Um, So we, you know, made somesacrifices and some drastic moves
to get, uh, to the Boone area.
I think, um, if I back up, um,I went to graduate school in
Georgia and was really bent andfocused on being a Creative Writer.
(02:35):
Um, so I have an MFA in Creative Writing.
And I, and all I really wanted todo is become a better Writer and
didn't have career aspirations.
Like I want to be a professor.
Um, but then as I worked on theMFA, I realized, Oh, there could
be some college Teaching jobs.
Uh, I applied for jobs all over thecountry, probably like 75 jobs had
something like four interviews and thejob I ended up accepting was at St.
(02:57):
John's university.
Um, and so we had a lot of academicfreedom, but one of the kind of direct
orders we had was you will use Digication.
Um, and you will have a portfolio.
Um, so that was justsort of thrust upon me.
Um, and it wasn't long untilI really began to value, um,
(03:19):
just writing in digital spaces.
I thought as a teacher of writing,if we're not working in digital
spaces, what are we doing?
Um, so that was exciting andthat engaged the students.
And so with that little nugget I'llbe like, being made to do something
that really grew into the othertool that I've used ever since.
Oh, thank you so much for sharing that.
(03:39):
I was just kind of curious with theteaching that you're doing now, and the
kind of students that you're working with.
Do you have a lot of studentsthat are coming in to, just
you know, for their love and appreciationof the, the craft of writing and a
similar kind of mindset that, that youwere in, or do you have a lot of people
(04:02):
that are already kind of thinking aboutwhat am I going to do after college?
Well, so at App State, um, wehave something called the Vertical
Writing Curriculum, which is oneof the exciting things about being
here in that the students havefour required writing classes.
Throughout their time as an undergraduate.
So I teach in that program.
And so people are taking aclass that they have to take.
(04:25):
Um, so no, most of my studentswalk into the classroom saying.
I thought I tested out of this.
Why do I have to take this in my major?
Um, and so one of the early goalsfor me is just to kind of shift that
attitude a little bit more towardsthe positive and help them experience
writing as something that's pleasurable.
(04:47):
And I tend to not have a verydifficult time of doing that.
They have a lot ofchoices about their work.
Um, and one of the thingsthat's really guided me.
for decades is the ideathat it's fun to make stuff.
And so, and so, uh, a ...port, a digitalportfolio is something that you're making.
(05:07):
And so once students startengaging in that, uh, they start
to forget that they're doing workand because they're working on
something they've chosen to work on.
Um, Enthusiasm starts to grow.
So it's been a really useful, uh,tool for me to kind of engage students
and get them excited about writing.
Oh, that's wonderful.
And, you know, it's always beenour kind of hope that Instructors
(05:34):
and students will approach it asits own kind of space for creation.
You know, certainly people can uploaddocuments and, and files, but we're
always hoping that they really useit as that kind of opportunity for
creating and building and exploring.
(05:56):
So when you're introducing studentsto this kind of digital space,
how do you describe it to them?
What are some of the earlyconversations that you have with
them about how it's going to be used?
I've heard you talk before justabout like process portfolios
or more polished portfolios.
(06:17):
So we, we, for example, useGoogle docs as a place to draft.
And we talk about, uh, wecall them "aPortfolios".
We brand everything with anA at App State, so, Mm-Hmm.
. So we, no, I still, I have toremind them that, you know,
these are electronic portfolios.
No one else is gonna call thisan aPort when you leave here.
Um, but we, we think about,uh, publishing to the aPort.
(06:39):
Yeah.
And we do that, um, as we go, whichI think is, it's not even like
convincing them, it's, we've got thisdraft of this piece we've been working
on, and now we're gonna publish it.
To this space, which, you know, it waskind of like your own personal website.
Um, and so we decide todo that together in class.
And so they leave the class, you know,one third started, or, or they've at
(07:01):
least sort of had an introduction to itbecause we've all worked on that together.
So, and then it's.
I think a good sign is that, um,it's a space where the students
do way more than that's required.
So, you know, I lay out, uh,you know, a grading guide.
Here's the expectations for whatyou're going to do in this space.
You know, two images, there'scaptions, embed video, use
(07:22):
some links, whatever it is.
Uh, and they always go overboard.
There's always more, more ofeverything that I asked for.
So that's always a good signwhen students work far beyond the
expectations of the assignment Yeah.
And so how do you Kind of prepare themfor what the expectations will be.
You mentioned that there's some kind ofrequirements in the beginning about what
(07:46):
kind of content that they might upload,but how, how are they actually graded
or assessed as part of your course?
Cause that's a question that we oftenget, you know, are there specific
kinds of rubrics that you used?
Are peers involved in lookingat each other's materials?
(08:08):
How do you kind of let them knowwhat those expectations are?
So it would be yes to all of those things.
Um, and then to start tobreak it down a little bit.
Um, it's a little bit more, Ithink, of a labor based approach.
Uh, probably not purely that, butall that means is, um, I'm asking
for these, things to be part ofthe composition of your text.
(08:32):
And if they're there, you get the credit.
And if they're not there,you don't get the credit.
Um, you can always revise whatyou've done for a better grade as
long as the course is still going.
Um, so it's, it's almost likeyou get a temporary score.
So it's things like word count andnumber of images, um, use of space, use
of color, um, captions on the images.
(08:57):
So that's kind of what we talk about.
Um, and then we use, um, something calledas you learn, which is a Moodle, whatever,
it's a Learning Management System andyou can create custom grading guides.
Um, and so it's always just like,you know, three to five categories,
like I just said, images, use of,uh, internal citations, use of
(09:20):
space, use of color, design is a bigcategory, is one of the categories.
So I score that and I writethem a note at the bottom.
Which sort of engages with theirideas and content, but also says,
Hey, you lost three points becauseyou forgot your captions or you just
threw your three images on the bottom.
If you want to move those back,integrate those into the text, then,
you know, this can be a better grade.
So that's, that's sort of thegrading, grading assessment part.
(09:42):
Um, and then, you know, the challenge,whether it's an online class, a hybrid
class or solely face to face class,um, you know, one of the things I
take pride in is creating community.
I used to have this professor thatalways said, Sam Watson at UNC
Charlotte, he would always say, Writingfloats on a sea of conversation.
And so I'm trying to shiftstudents out of error finding.
(10:06):
Let's just talk to each other.
Let's be a thoughtful, engagedaudience for each other.
And that will take, you know, we don't,we don't need to point out mistakes.
It's just like, Hey Kelly, I'm Bill.
You're getting to know me.
I'm listening to you.
I have questions about what you're doing.
And so that kind of interaction amongthe students, um, it motivates them.
It gives them a sense of audience.
It helps them write more effectively.
(10:27):
Because they can imagine whatthey need to say to each other.
Um, and so we have forums inour learning management system.
Where we comment in the forumabout each other's portfolios.
Nice.
Nice.
And how often are they kind oflooking at each other's work?
Are they looking at someof the early drafts?
(10:48):
Do you have them focus moreon some of the final versions?
How do you kind of get the workon building that community as
part of sharing their work?
We, I mean, I think one of the firstthings we do, which takes a little
bit of time, but seems worth it tome, um, is that we write an academic
profile to start, uh, the course.
(11:10):
So, um, you know, if you were, if you'rewriting a profile for a dating website,
which I've never done, um, cause I'mold and happily married for a long time.
Um, you know, that wouldbe a different audience.
Like what you would say in thatprofile would be different.
But here we are at App State andyou have a major and you have
professors and you have classmates.
Um, so that profile is different,so that automatically gets
(11:33):
us thinking about audience.
Um, so we do some pre writing, we keepa, a digital journal that I call a day
book after somebody like Donald Murray.
Um, so we do that in a doc, so wehave pre writing, we write drafts,
we comment on each other's drafts.
Um, we publish to Digication,and then I do take what usually
(11:55):
is two full class periods.
For students to give like a fiveminute about me presentation, um, where
it's like, Oh, you live in Raleigh.
I went to high school in Raleigh.
Where did you go?
So, so just automatically there'sall this conversation that sparks up.
Oh, you're an EMT.
I'm an EMT.
Oh, you're, you work at the Ski School.
I w...
(12:15):
i, you know, whateverit is that's going on.
So all these connections are builtwithin the first couple of weeks.
And then we just repeat that kind ofcycle through all of our projects for
the course of a semester, where it'slike pre-writing, stop and talk to each
other, check in on drafts, publish,look at each other's publications.
And then I always, you know, I'm notgoing to copy everything you do, Kelly.
(12:37):
But when I look at your portfolio, I getideas for myself, like, Oh, I see what
she did and this is what I want to do.
Um, and that's that kind of writingfloats on a sea of conversation piece.
Nice.
Nice.
Yeah.
Do you find that students oftenget inspired by some of the design
elements of the content thatthey're creating at that time?
(12:58):
Sure, it's both.
I mean, it's, it's, there are somestudents that are just self motivated
and excited to experiment and can'twait to learn from each other.
And then there's other people, and maybesometimes you can be each of these people,
you're like, oh, I need to step up mygame because I just saw Kelly's portfolio.
It's incredible.
I just copied and pasted abunch of text into one box.
(13:21):
Um, I need to do better than this.
So, so it works both ways.
I mean, I'm not trying to shame peopleinto working harder, but, um, they just
do it themselves, they see it and theyget motivated, uh, because of the work,
uh, of their classmates sometimes.
So it works in all kinds of ways.
That's great.
Yeah.
So healthy...
Healthy, pure motivation.
And really when we were creatingDigication, uh, a lot of it came out of,
(13:45):
Both, uh, my experience and the experienceof Digication's co founder, Jeff Yan.
Uh, because when we were incollege, we were at a design school
where we're always working inthis kind of studio environment.
So from the very beginning of receivinga kind of prompt from an instructor, you
(14:08):
know, other people were walking aroundviewing what you were creating and, you
It was kind of impossible to not getinspired by other people that were in
the room and instructors would kind ofwander through and give little desk crits
and feedback as you were building things,um, classmates would come by and, you
(14:34):
know, sometimes give you props or ideas.
And it was a very, um, wonderfulkind of experience and so
different from what we had done,you know, coming up through K-12.
So it was really eye opening and exciting.
And so when we were creatingthis kind of environment for
students, we really wanted.
(14:56):
There to be that kind of opportunity,but now in a, in a digital space.
So, it's wonderful to hear thatyour students are doing that.
When you were a freshman in college,when you were heading off to college, um,
and we both have, I think, 18 year olds.
We do.
What did you think the arc ofyour life was going to be then?
Did you know?
(15:16):
Did you think you know?
I would imagine it shifted.
I wouldn't think you thought you weregoing to be the co founder of Digication
when you were 18, but maybe you didn't.
Absolutely not!
Absolutely not.
And this is something that wetalked to the kids about a lot here.
You know, I do have a senior and, uh,two sophomores and also some little guys.
(15:38):
And we talk a lot about how, you know,you may have some ideas in mind about
your future trajectory, but you know,the people you meet and the places you
go and the different experiences that youhave will certainly kind of shift things
and, um, carry you on different paths.
(16:01):
And yeah, when I started college, uh,I actually majored in textile design
and, um, had just kind of fallen inlove with, uh, painting on fabric, uh,
in my little corner of the basementin the home that I grew up in.
(16:22):
And so when I got into this,
That's where I went, but, um, uh,the, um, kind of foundation year
at Rhode Island School of Designwas just, like, so transformative.
So even though I stayed in that pathof textile design, my, like, whole
(16:44):
vision of art making and drawing andpainting and, I mean, it just opened
up a totally different world to me.
I had no intention at all of even takingcomputer classes, but I happened to fall
into one that, um, yeah, just shiftedmy path and, um, also didn't plan to
(17:10):
become any kind of, uh, teacher andthen started teaching at the school
that I went to after graduation.
And from there startedbuilding tools for my students.
So you just.
You just don't know where things aregonna are gonna take you and I'm sure
as an educator you love working withstudents kind of for that reason right
(17:34):
you're kind of catching them at thiskind of moment in time where they've
got ideas and you can kind of I rememberI think when you know when I I think
first knew about Digication and metJeff, I don't know, 15 or 20 years ago.
It seemed like there was a sense ofyou saying to yourselves, we need
(17:55):
something better than what we have here.
And so then you started to work oncreating a space that would be better
for, uh, you know, art, creativeminded students to have a space
to, um, put what they were making.
Yeah, yeah, and it really did start assomething I was teaching in the education
(18:15):
program at the time that we startedbuilding this and it was called the
Digital Media Design Studio, but it wasfor you know people that were preparing
to become future art educators And manyof my students had, you know, ideas about
(18:39):
what that meant and may or may not haveused, um, computers to make art or, um,
create lesson plans and curriculum maps.
So there's kind of a combination of,you know, tools that we were using and
the portfolio at the time was somethingthat, you know, was definitely used for
(19:02):
kind of creating that showcase of art.
But within that education program wasreally about capturing their experience
throughout their time at the programand the program was using it to give
them feedback and Kind of track progresstoward those professional practice,
(19:22):
teaching standards, and really alsowanted it to be something that they could
take with them to use after graduationfor their own career advancement.
So, you know, I was really trying tomodel a lot of things for the students
at the time and the way that I wasusing technology in the classroom and
(19:42):
the, the learning management systemsweren't going to cut it because
it wasn't something that I just.
for an individual course.
It was really something that wasgoing to be, you know, something
that they were going to touchthroughout their time at the program
and then continue to have access to.
And so, yeah, Jeff and I werejust like, well, let's just
(20:04):
build something for our students.
You know, we're notfinding the right kind of.
environment.
And, you know, we innocently embarkedon that thinking we were going to be
working on it for a weekend or so.
And, you know, over 20 yearslater, now here we are.
(20:26):
But you really were, you know, using itin a, in some of the early stages of the
platform and you've seen it kind of evolveover the last, you know, 10-plus years,
um, what are, have there been any shifts?
(20:47):
You know, you mentioned thatit was just kind of thrust
upon you when you joined App.
State.
Have, have there, has there been someevolution in kind of how you use it or
maybe some of the, you know, changesin the platform that may have, you
know, given you other opportunities.
Yeah, I mean, the first thing I wouldsay is going all the way back to St.
(21:08):
John's, St.
John's is the spot in Queenswhere it was thrust upon me.
Um, you know, the guy, the guywho was directing the program
then, his name is Derek Owens, youprobably know him or remember him.
So, you know, when I hear you talk aboutum, your life as an artist, I can see
why You and Jeff appealed to Derek.
I mean, it would make a lot of sense.
I mean, he has that same, Ithink, kind of perspective.
(21:31):
Um, so the, the platform has justgotten much, much more intuitive to use.
Um, where, you know, I think the learningcurve to like popping on there and making
stuff is, you know, much more simple thanit was, of course, 15 or 20 years ago.
Um, and so, uh, I think just theonly thing that's sort of been
(21:52):
evolving It's just the constantchange of technology, right?
Um, Yeah.
Whereas, I mean, I like, we talk aboutdiscourses, groups of, with common goals
and specialized language and so forth.
Um, and sometimes the students, like,don't get how discourses change.
But, you know, I started teaching in 1995.
I didn't have an email account.
(22:12):
There was no internet.
No one had a cell phone.
So, of course, like, the waysthat teaching has changed.
Writing has changed since the mid 90s.
Um, so that's sort of what I thinkof, but, um, just the, and then maybe
the students tend to be, um, they're,they very willingly engage and they're
(22:33):
thoughtful and they ask me questionsof things that I haven't thought of.
Um, so, you know, we continue tohave really good experiences around.
The digital space and Digicationis where we do most of that.
That's wonderful.
Do you know, as your students are kindof publishing their writing, do you find
(22:54):
that they have Um, already comfort inthat kind of process of sharing, or do you
have students that, you know, maybe feelcomfortable sharing things with you and
their peers, but may not want to open itup beyond that particular course or share
(23:18):
it with audiences outside of the school,what, what's your kind of feeling from the
students that you're working with today?
Yeah, I think what I think of.
You know, if I ask myself, why Digication?
Um, I mean, I think the, the ability totoggle the privacy settings and to create
and do some of that work and not feellike it's out on Google immediately, at
(23:41):
least, or out on a social media platform.
Um, that's certainly one of the values.
But then I think, Totally guessing,you know, 85, 90 percent of my students
are totally fine and immediately eager.
And in fact, um, make themselvesreally vulnerable really quickly
to the point where I'm like, Ooh,you got, you really brought it.
(24:04):
Um, but, and then there are others who,um, and I always introduce, you know,
you can make this private, privateto me, sort of go over the settings.
There are usually, you know.
One to four students in a group of 80who, who prefer to keep it much more
private or, and then there's alwayslike, You know, I do require images,
(24:26):
but I don't require an image of you.
You know, it can be your dog, itcan be a flower, it can be the
clouds, it can be the view, whatever.
So, students, there is a varietyof what they choose as far as
making things public or private.
Yeah, yeah.
And we do find more and more, and thisis something that, you know, certainly
(24:48):
in the earlier days of Digication wehadn't planned for, but you mentioned
that there's this importance of buildingcommunity within your classroom and
among the students that you're workingwith and that you're finding that
(25:09):
sometimes students are kind of usingthis space within Digication to You
know talk about things that are maybemore kind of personal in nature You know
information about themselves or theirexperiences how that's impacted them
(25:32):
Um, and I think, you know, a big driverbehind that seems to be students really
valuing the opportunity to share in orderto find connection and find community
within the institutions that they're in.
(25:53):
And I was curious if you've seen Youknow, throughout the time that you've
been using that is that something thatyou feel has kind of grown over time um,
I know sometimes if The spaces are justused as kind of a showcase of final works.
(26:14):
We see some of that less often, butif it is used as that kind of creation
space, the kind of human behind thecontent starts to emerge and why
they're You know, creating the thingsthat they are starts to emerge.
So I was just kind of curious fromyour perspective, if that seems
like something that has been kind ofevolving along with the, with the times.
(26:38):
Yeah.
I like your phrase humanbehind the content.
Um, so, you know, if, if we'reinteracting with just a learning
management system and it's justlike your name in black and white.
Letters with text and you're turning inassignments, um, the human behind the
text, it's more difficult for that personto emerge whereas when I'm, when I'm
(27:01):
clicking on, um, one thing I really likeabout the electronic portfolios is when
I'm looking at a student's piece, um, alltheir other pieces are right there too.
So that, that academic profilethat we mentioned, you know, I,
if I'm, if I'm teaching 3 onlineclasses and that's 70-ish students.
(27:21):
Um, I'm able to pop over tothat about me and just quickly
remind myself, who is this?
Um, in a way that I can't do ifI'm looking at one assignment
in a Learning Management System.
I think something I've noticed aboutthe students, maybe in the last
five years or so, is just a newlevel of thoughtfulness about...
Digital spaces.
(27:42):
More so in, in fact, you know, morecritical of that space, a little
bit more reluctant to go there.
Not necessarily reluctant to useDigication, but more likely to say,
you know, I don't have any socialmedia accounts, which I would have
seen maybe seven or eight years ago.
And also maybe, you know, Ihave two teenagers at home,
(28:03):
probably more thoughtful.
Then they are also.
So I think just something about whetherit's apps, you know, leaving your house
and showing up in Boone and going to App.
State, um, just being a little bitmore thoughtful about what online
spaces they engage in and more likelyto say, um, you know, I limit my
social media to this and this and thistime, and I'm making sure I'm hiking
(28:26):
and I'm going out on the parkway.
And so I do see like, almostlike a new generation of.
of more thoughtful, less reluctant usersof, um, just social media, for example.
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
I mean, they've really just grownup so immersed in, you know, well,
(28:48):
many of them having a phone right infront of them from the very beginning.
And I think you're right that, um, youknow, they're Making more choices about,
you know, the amount of time that theyspend on certain platforms and what the,
um, the value add is for them and theirexperience and everything else that they
(29:14):
want to be able to spend their time doing.
And, um, You know, I think in thebeginning as these, uh, new tech,
the new technologies were kind ofcoming into play in education context,
that there, there was kind of a,a newness and a, a freshness and.
Um, the way that people may have beenposting things, um, and there's a lot
(29:41):
of competition for our attention now.
So it has to be kind of deliberate inwhere they're choosing to spend their
time and, and what they're sharingand who they're sharing it with.
And you mentioned earlier, there areconversations with them a little bit
about audience and Are you talkingto them at all about, um, how this is
(30:07):
something that they could use aftergraduation, um, with their alumni
access, ways that they could shareit with people outside of the school?
Sure.
So they're usually sophomores.
Um, so they're a littleways down the road.
(30:28):
We definitely just talk about the idea ofa portfolio in the history of a portfolio.
Uh, even if it was physical, um,and what they might potentially use.
We also talk a lot about, um, knownaudiences and unknown audiences.
And that often, you know, if you're, ifyou're posting something on TikTok, um,
(30:51):
or you're posting something on your, um,portfolio, you know, there are people,
you know, are going to look at it.
But there's also people who are goingto read it and never thought about it.
So we, we, we talk about that.
Um, and then we, and of course, Imean, for example, that you said you
taught in the education department,they're all really conscious of the
fact that they're going to be creatinga portfolio, um, to be used later.
(31:15):
Others.
And, and I guess another thing thatcomes up and a reason that I list as 'Why
Digication?' Um, it's because we're, mystudents are almost all using Digication.
If you ask me for a letter ofrecommendation two years, three years,
four years after I've had you, it'sso easy for me just to search for your
(31:35):
name and, and immediately be immersedin your work as opposed to like looking
all, you know, do you still havethat link to that portfolio made on
this platform that no one else used?
So it really reduces like, um,kind of the work, the work involved
in conjuring all that stuff up.
So that's something that,um, I find useful about it.
(31:57):
Oh, good.
Good.
Yeah.
I don't know if I've hadsomeone mentioned that before,
but that makes a lot of sense.
I'm sure as soon as you see thatportfolio, you can kind of remember
the, um, the person and you havethat immediate access to the work
that they created within your course.
Um, and you mentioned that most ofthem are sophomores in the, um, in
(32:21):
Rhetoric and Composition at App State.
Are there other courses where the studentsmay be utilizing this technology again?
Yeah, so that's, um, certainly within,um, the Vertical Writing Curriculum,
um, so they could easily use it intheir required 1000 level class.
Mine's called 2001 WritingAcross the Curriculum.
(32:44):
So they, they, there arestudents come to my class.
Some of them having used Digication.
Um, it's a little bit more of anunknown once they, once they leave the
Vertical Writing Curriculum and go out.
into whatever their majors are.
I really, it's hard for me to say.
I, you know, I don't know.
Here's a preview of what's coming upnext in part two of my conversation
(33:07):
with Bill Torgerson, a lecturerin Rhetoric and Composition at
Appalachian State University.
You know, the ability to learn content,the ability to present the content
in an engaging way that makes iteasily digestible to the audience,
whether it's a player or a student.
Um, those are really importantin both of those spaces and
(33:27):
probably strengths of mine.
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