December 4, 2024 • 32 mins
Welcome to the latest episode of Digication Scholars Conversations with your host, Jeff Yan, in an engaging dialogue with Devon Thomas Jones and Thomas Murray from the University of Arizona.
Devon and Tom discuss their course directors' roles and passion for helping students find value in General Education. Learn how their innovative courses foster critical thinking, effective communication, and the lifelong skills necessary for personal and professional growth.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Welcome to DigicationScholars Conversations.
I'm your host, Jeff Yan.
In this episode, you will hearPart One of my conversation with
Devon Thomas Jones and ThomasMurray from University of Arizona.
Devon and Tom are course directorsfor University 301, General
Education Portfolio, and University101 Introduction to General
(00:22):
Education Experience, respectively.
They are both also AssociateProfessors of Practice at the W.
A.
Franke Honors College in theOffice of General Education.
More links and information about today'sconversation can be found on Digication's
Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.
Full episodes of Digication ScholarsConversations can be found on
(00:43):
YouTube or your favorite podcast app.
Welcome to DigicationScholars Conversations.
I'm your host, Jeff Yan.
My guests today are Devon ThomasJones, course director of University
301, General Education Portfolio,and Thomas Murray, course director
of University 101, Introduction tothe General Education Experience.
(01:05):
They are both AssociateProfessors of Practice at W.
A.
Franke Honors College and theOffice of General Education
at University of Arizona.
Welcome.
Thank you.
Thanks.
We usually do one on oneconversations, but I've always
known the both of you as a pair.
(01:25):
Um, I feel like we've alwaystalked to both of you.
Um, and so, um, I thought it would,it would be just, uh, uh, be useful
to, to, to have both of you onDigication Scholars Conversation.
Um, Now, you both direct, um, twodifferent, um, courses in the same sort of
(01:46):
Gen Ed program in University of Arizona.
Maybe for folks who are joining us who arenot even aware of what does all this mean?
What is Gen Ed, University 101, 301?
These are all lingos that sometimes,you know, even folks that are in
higher education get confused.
(02:06):
Could you, like, tell us a littlebit about what these, what these
courses are and what, what you do?
Sure.
Um, I think it's actually, it'sinteresting that you say a lot of
people might not understand all this is.
That's actually the purpose insome ways of both of our courses.
Um, it is to help students understandand make meaning of their General
(02:30):
Education coursework, um, whichprovides, uh, really broad and rich
foundation for, you know, whatevermajor or majors they might be pursuing.
So, our courses are actually designedto address that very issue at this
institution so that students know,you know, why are we doing this?
(02:51):
Like, what is the value ofdoing General Education?
How can I make it meaningful for myself?
How can I Describe to myselfand others what it is that I've
learned so that they're getting themost benefit out of that General
Education program that they can.
Um, and it is, it's,it's two bookends, right?
(03:12):
Which is why Devon and I often appearsimultaneously in the same spaces
because we're, we're, our coursesare two sides of the same coin.
And, um, could you tell, like, let'sstep back even one step further.
It's not one step.
You know, further from, from, fromthat for people who don't know
(03:34):
what General Education is, right?
So we, you talked about, well, what'sthe value of General Education?
Let me give people some examplesof what, what is General Education?
You know, if you've, if you, youare not in college yet, you are
thinking about attending college andyou hear about General Education,
but you don't know what that is.
How does one even startto understand that?
(03:55):
Sure.
I love talking about this.
That's why Devon waited.
She knows, she knows thatI love talking about this.
Um, so General Education is aboutdeveloping the whole person.
It's about developing ways of thinkingand ways of knowing that are not
just about Vocational trading, right?
(04:18):
Um, you know, students go to college,they want to get a really great career,
really great job out of it as they should.
Part of what supports that great career isthe capacity to think outside of kind of
the narrow focus of what that career is.
So, At the University of Arizona,for example, we have four learning
(04:41):
outcomes for our General Educationprogram, which are, um, Communicating
Effectively, Thinking Critically,Using Information Effectively
and Ethically, and Understandingand Valuing Differences, right?
So these, these learning outcomesdescribe skills that transcend
Any particular field, right?
No matter what field you're goinginto, your employer is going
(05:04):
to value your capacity to thinkcritically and problem solve.
They're going to value your abilityto communicate effectively in
writing, um, and speaking acrosscontexts, across audiences.
And General Education courseshelp develop that capacity.
And the great thing is then you can,you can take these courses that have Any
(05:28):
number of topics to them, um, because insome ways the topics don't even matter.
It's the, it's the ways of thinkingand doing that they're helping you
develop, um, that really matters.
So we, we have General Educationcourses at the U of A on zombies.
Uh, we have, um, some that areon like video games and video
games in societies, right?
(05:49):
And so these really broad topics,it doesn't really matter that
you're studying zombies, right?
What, What you're really learning aboutis how, through literature, humans
have created the idea of monstersand that way of thinking and, um,
understanding how humans, um, createdifferences between them, um, and
(06:13):
all sorts of ways of thinking that 20years from now, you're going to forget
what you learned about zombies, right?
But the way of thinking stays with you.
And that's a, that's a reallyhuge value of General Education.
I love that sense of these skillsare durable and transferable
over a long period of time.
And that, um, it's not specific todisciplines and content that Actually,
(06:42):
I, I think that I, you know, I've beentalking, you know, I, I have kids that
are sort of close to college age andyou know, I talk to them and their
friends and I feel like sometimesthere's this sort of notion that, you
know, when I go to college, I want toget a job at this, whatever, you know,
like give it a label, whatever that is.
(07:04):
And sometimes I think that there'sthis tension between that and
actually you also going there tolearn to become a better learner.
And that, that may be even moreimportant because that one skill that
you're mentioning now, um, that'sgoing to change in the next five, 10
years, 15, 20 years for sure, right?
(07:25):
And that, and that your, your foundationalskills to be able to learn is so much
more important because as those thingschange, um, those durable skills that
you were talking about, like, youknow, communicating effectively, quick
to thinking critically, um, Beingable to take information and what was
it, um, um, ethically and, uh, uh.
(07:46):
Effectively and ethically.
Effectively and ethically, um,and I forgot the last one, um.
Understanding and valuing difference.
Understanding, yeah.
And, and these are all things that, um,they're like evergreen topics, right?
There are things that will apply to usNot only for any specific content area,
(08:08):
but also just in life, in leadership,in relationships with people, um,
and finding meaning in general.
And so I, I, I think that there, youknow, I think that there's, there is,
there is this weird tension of studentstoday thinking about going to college,
attending college, and there's thisidea that like, oh, I attend college.
(08:31):
What is your major?
You know, what am I going to get a job at?
Of course, there's the tensionof also student loans and so on.
So you want to be ableto pay it back, right?
You want to be able to afford it.
But, you know, They think about, youknow, sort of that very practical
tension of, okay, if I'm going tobe a nurse, why do I have to learn
how to do all these other things?
And the idea is, you know, and,and that's really what you guys do.
(08:54):
You're like, hold on a minute.
Actually, whether you want to bea nurse or an engineer or a lawyer
or a doctor, these are all thingsthat's going to apply to you.
Right, right.
Well, and, and, um, A strongGeneral Education foundation
cuts across industry, right?
And so to think about your GeneralEducation, um, typically, right, in U.
(09:16):
S.
uh, colleges and universities,this is a large component of your
degree requirement, um, anywherefrom maybe a quarter to a third
of the number of credits thatyou need to complete your degree.
And we also know, right, that with anever changing, like, job market and
industry and the way that things arechanging and we're preparing folks to
(09:37):
graduate into careers that don't exist.
Um, it also then makes your degreemore valuable because it makes it more
transferable to different industries.
So when you are studying to be a creativewriter, the kinds of skill sets you
need Working for a law firm is goingto maybe look a lot different than if
you're working in a marketing or adagency, but being able to effectively
(10:01):
work on a team or delegate, like, thoseare things that are required in either
of those industries, and those are thekinds of skills and mindsets that you get
to practice and get a lot of experiencein through your General Education.
So, yes, I think sometimes, um,it can feel like with the cost of
college and with the time to degreethat the urgency around, well, I want
(10:25):
to get these things out of the way.
I want to complete my gen eds as fast aspossible because I want to get to the, the
good stuff when I'm here to study, right?
Um, but rather if we can reframeit as, this is part of the value
that you get to take with you.
regardless of where you end up with yourdegree that, that adds a layer, um, of
transferability and applicability that maynot exist if you end up taking, you know,
(10:49):
getting a degree in something and notactually then ending up in that industry.
No, I love that.
And I, I, I have a, I have a Somethingthat I want to check with you on,
and this is something that I, I.
I feel like that I've heard a lot ofpeople say, and I can hypothesize,
but I don't know whether you knowpeople, you know, I mean, you are, you
(11:12):
are the pros here, you know, so youmight, you have more to say about this.
I really feel like that for peoplewho have gained these skills, right?
Like you said, top, the subject matteritself wasn't even the point of it.
You could be studying zombies, um, but.
Once you've gained these, you know,sort of foundational skills, you know,
(11:33):
to thinking, to be, to be someonewho can, you know, who can think
critically, et cetera, it actuallymakes you more effective a learner,
whatever field you go into anyway.
So if we were to think about likeyour, roughly speaking, a four year
undergraduate education, I knowpeople, you know, can fluctuate, you
know, those four years are not exact.
(11:54):
Um, That you spend some of some portionof the time developing these skills.
You'll spend some other timesdeveloping skills in specific,
you know, more narrow disciplines.
But the times that you actually, onceyou have these skills, when you go
into the disciplines, you're goingto be a much more effective learner.
I believe that the net result is actuallythat you are better at everything.
(12:21):
Like the net benefit after four years,let's say, is Better than if you had
spent four years, day one, go to nursing101 and you'd skipped all of this.
You would be a good nurse, but you wouldbe a better nurse if you actually spent
some of that time, even half of that timein General Education, and then only spend
(12:41):
half the time in nursing because duringthe half, half the time being in nursing,
you're actually doing more like you'rebeing more effective as a, as a learner.
What do you think about that hypothesis?
I completely agree with thatbecause because nursing doesn't
happen in a vacuum, right?
Engineering doesn't happen in a vacuum.
You engineer for people.
You engineer for communities.
You engineer for cities, right?
(13:02):
You engineer in a, in a complex system.
You nurse in a complex system.
You teach in a complex system.
And so you need to understandand be able to interact with that
system, um, in, in complex ways.
Because if all you, if all you knoware the technicalities of nursing,
That's a very limited understandingof what it means to be a nurse.
(13:27):
And the skills that you gainoutside of your industry make
you that more complex thinker.
And I think Jeff, you, you mentionedearlier, it's not just about your career.
It's about your personal life.
It's about your relationships, right?
These, these skills that youdevelop in General Education go
way beyond the career, right?
It, It changes, you know, if you arean effective communicator, and in 15
(13:50):
years you decide that you want to be avolunteer coach for your kid's sports
team, that effective communicationis going to benefit you as a coach
on your kid's sports team, right?
Um, so there's so much value to itother than, you know, You know, how
it's going to impact your career.
Right.
And I mean, Thanksgiving is comingup, um, you know, at that Thanksgiving
(14:13):
dinner table, if you want to effectivelycommunicate with your, with your, your
family, um, that's, uh, then this willbe a skill that, that, uh, you can come
back from, you know, college to use that.
Um, I, I want to, I want to pickup on that, um, Tom, a little
bit, maybe go a little bit in the,uh, Tangential sort of direction.
(14:39):
I think I agree with you.
A lot of these skills are, you know,applicable in so many ways, right?
I think that there is something thatwhen I see your program and I see your
students work and, and some of thethings that we've talked about, it's
also about getting students to have asense of mission and purpose, a sense
(15:01):
of 'What am I doing in this world?'
What's going to make me feel asense of fulfillment and joy?
Um, that goes beyond the financialrewards, the, even the, you
know, fame, basically beyondthe fame and fortune, right?
(15:23):
Um, I, I, I sometimes think that maybein the Western culture and in in the
United States, we don't, Talk about thatso much, you know, um, but, but these
are things that I think that our studentsare, have been feeling, especially in the
(15:47):
last few years after COVID, especiallyafter COVID after, um, um, you know,
these, you know, those years of sort ofisolation and sort of trying to think
about meaning and, and it's sort oflike a wake up call for everyone, right?
Um, And I, I, I have found alot of people, young people are
(16:11):
actually having these conversations.
You know, some of it is about worklife balance, but it's actually a lot
more about, you know, some of them arelike, I, I, I don't want to, um, be an
engineer and just work on how to make abanner ad, you know, be more effective.
(16:31):
Um, even if that were goingto pay you a lot of money,
um, they don't want that job.
They want something alittle bit more meaningful.
That's a part of Conversation that Ihave with people that make gives me so
much hope and and optimism about theworld But I think it really comes from
Opportunities that you are providingto your students through these courses.
(16:55):
Yeah, we have we have a lot of studentswho Um, when they get to U of A and
they, and they take, in a unit ofone to one, when we're trying to get
them to explore things that they'reinterested in, they actually, in a lot
of ways, they're stymied by it, right?
Like, they, they'reconfused by the question.
(17:16):
When we ask them, like,what are you curious about?
What do you want to learn?
It actually, is a moment of panic forsome of them because in 12 years of
formal education, some of them havenever had an educator ask them, what
is it that you're curious about, right?
Um, and so it's this, this kind ofaha moment for them of understanding
(17:39):
that what they're interested in,uh, has value and it's important.
And it can actually direct theirlearning and, oh my goodness,
maybe even make learning fun.
Um, it's, it's such arevelation for some of them.
Um, and I know on the, on the other end,you started off by talking about purpose.
I know that Devon's got plenty of examplesof, of students who in the portfolio
(18:03):
process have kind of found that purpose.
Yeah.
And I think what we're hoping to do,um, You know, these, the courses that
Tom and I lead, right, um, are reallyasking students, um, to forefront,
like, what's in it for them, right?
(18:24):
And what have they learned?
And then how does thatlearning matter to them?
And I think that that is a pedagogicalshift, uh, in mindset that Many
students are unfamiliar with becauseso much of it is tell me what I've
taught you and demonstrate that youknow and have received the information.
And, um, it's not to say thatthat still doesn't happen, right?
(18:48):
But really to center, um, and put theresponsibility on the student as the
learner and drivers of their meaningmaking, uh, gives purpose, uh, like
a new light and then in turn we knowthat when we understand why we're
doing something and what value itmight offer me, I'm more like energized
(19:12):
to follow through on it, right?
It, it adds a layer of motivationand commitment to learning, um,
that may not exist otherwise.
Um, so I think that that's an excitingmoment for students, um, and something
that We try to preserve, uh, asmuch as, right, in, in higher ed and
(19:33):
education, there's always externalfactors that place pressure on
curriculum, on, um, you know, standardsof learning and things like that.
But to preserve the piece that the studentis the primary agent and responsible for
their learning and we're here to supportthat learning, um, is something that we,
Keep close and in our work and our values.
(19:56):
Yeah.
Can I say something that I thinkpeople Really sometimes don't
realize what you all do is hard work.
It's really hard work You are youknow, it's it's almost like to me.
It feels like if I were to compare,you know Here's ten things.
I just want students to remember themand then test them on it It almost
(20:18):
feels, Oh man, that would have been easy.
Right.
But what you guys do are saying, Oh no,we are trying to get to every person and
try to try to figure out who they eachare, that they are going to come up with
answers that we, we, we have no idea.
We get, we have to read each ofthem, each, each one of them.
We have to understand each one of them.
(20:39):
We have to take into context and come upwith a way to give them feedback, right?
That's a lot more work than justsaying, what are the 10 correct answers?
I can just check it, yes orno, and then be done, right?
So I think that people sometimes almost,I almost feel like, you know, there's,
I talked to some students that go,well, I'm thinking about just going to
(21:01):
do this little bootcamp or whatever.
I'm not saying those things are bad.
I just think that they have no idea.
Like they're not even comparing applesto to this is apples and and trees, you
know, it's not even They're like in adifferent league or completely different
league And and so so so and speaking ofhard work I want to talk a little bit
(21:27):
about the scale in which you do thisin because I've heard people that go,
well, that'd be nice because you arein the, uh, Liberal Arts, you know,
program where you have 12 students inyour class, you can all discuss and,
you know, have this like wonderful,you know, cohort and, and do all that.
(21:49):
Can you tell, Tell us a little bitabout the scale in which you work in.
I mean, you have, by the way,everything you said is, you know,
is great, is personalized, isambitious, is customized, right?
But at what scale?
Are we talking about like 30 students?
Are we talking about 50 students?
What are we talking about?
We're talking about a lot of students.
(22:11):
So our, our classes are capped at 27.
Students right now are individual sectionsof our classes, but, um, UNIV 101 is,
is, well, UNIV 101 and 301 are requiredfor all students who are admitted as
first year students to the University ofArizona, which is about 9, 000 students.
(22:31):
Each fall, um, plus a few spring admits.
And now, you know, also with Arizonaonline, we have, um, you know, much
smaller, but still a population there.
Um, so scaling it was a challenge.
I mean, we, we piloted UNIV 101 with14 sections in the spring of 22 and
(22:51):
had to scale it to like 340 sections.
in the space of four months.
Um, and so it's, it's a, it'sa, it's a big lift, right?
And so, and three, you know, youknow, 301 is probably, I don't
know, Devon, maybe a year away frombeing at full, kind of full growth.
And so we're, we're talkingabout 7 to 800 sections of...
(23:16):
between the two classes a year, um,and at 27 students a section, if you've
got some good quantitative reasoningskills, you can figure out it's a lot of
sections, and it's a lot of instructors.
Um, it's a lot of classroom space for,you know, one on one, which is in person.
Um, it's a lot of grading.
So, um, the scaling has beenreally big, um, but it can happen.
(23:43):
And we've heard the same thing, like, oh,it's, it, it can't, you can't do something
like that at an institution this size.
Well, you can if it's aninstitutional priority, right?
So I want people who arelistening to realize how how
crazy this, these numbers are.
So we're talking about, it's not, we'renot trying to like do this with, you
(24:06):
know, like 12 students in a class andthat luxurious, you know, classroom.
We're talking about, you know, like9, 000 students a year coming through.
Every single year.
So every single year you get 9, 000 freshnew students going through this process.
So that's, and that's in 101.
And so then you've got, you know, now sixto seven a year who are going through 301.
(24:34):
So, so we're talking, you know,well north of 15, 000 students a
year go through The courses thatyou both direct and this is by all
means, it's, it's a huge team effort.
There's a lot of faculty members, a lotof, a lot of different folks, um, in it.
And in fact, I remember, um, seeingthe, um, uh, You know, General Education
(24:59):
webpage at University of Arizona.
And there are like, I mean, the staffis like a huge list, um, you know,
just to just include everyone in there.
Right.
Um, there's, uh, thereare many professors.
There are many assistants.
There are, there are, there are, there area lot of people that, that make this work,
(25:20):
but you only can make it work becauseit's a priority for the institution.
So tell me about.
I'll tell all of us about why, like, howdid that happen at University of Arizona?
General Education.
In some schools, it's alwaysbeen called General Education.
In some schools, it'sLiberal Arts studies.
(25:41):
Sometimes they're called,you know, something else.
Um, foundational programsor skills, you know.
There's all kinds of, you know, waysthat people, different schools call it.
Um, I believe that you've had a GeneralEducation program for a long time.
But you, uh, Like you said, in 2022started rolling out a new version of it.
(26:05):
I mean, this is a huge undertaking, right?
This is not a, this is one ofthose things that people think.
And I want to dismiss somemyths, like college are doing the
same thing over and over again.
Well, they, I guess it depends onthe scale and the, and the time
timeline you're talking about.
Sometimes they do the samethings, but when, and they,
(26:25):
they're not sitting still either.
Um, and when something work, they doit for a while and then they, when
they realize that something needs tobe changed, they actually make changes.
And, and this is a great example of aninstitution of your size, being able
to just go, we're gonna pick up thisentire General Education program that's
been in existence for many years andwe're gonna revamp the whole thing.
(26:49):
Right?
Can you tell us a little bit about that?
It must be, must be quite an effort.
I look it up.
Too many, too many.
I know.
It brings up a lot of memories.
I think, I think the most importantthing for me to always keep in mind Um,
when I talk about the General Educationrefresh, is that it was done very
(27:17):
intentionally and in, and in many waysdone in response to student feedback.
And I think that is really importantbecause one of the values of our office of
General Education is really, um, focusingon the student experience and student
autonomy and, um, and what we learned.
(27:38):
from talking to students is that they,not surprisingly, didn't understand the
purpose of General Education, didn'tunderstand why they had to do it, what
they were learning, what they had learned,and we really wanted the new program
to respond to those concerns, right?
We also wanted to respond to, youknow, our Board of Regents, and we
(28:00):
wanted to respond to other externalconstituents, but, like, we want to
respond to these student issues thatwere being raised that, um, the students
weren't finding value in it, and oneof the reasons why students weren't
finding value in it is because they werefocused on content acquisition, right?
They were focusing on learning aboutzombies, and the fact that learning about
(28:24):
zombies is not practical informationand making this mindset shift and
cultural shift at the institution fromcontent to perspective taking, right?
That like, through learning about zombies,you develop an entirely new perspective
on history, on literature, on um, onthe ways that that human storytelling
(28:47):
happens, like that perspective is thevalue of General Education as much or more
so as learning the thing about zombies.
Um, but that also you have to,you have to invest time and effort
in making meaning of it, right?
So students engage in a lot of reflectionin these classes because that's the
process by which students make meaningof what they're learning, right?
(29:11):
That they, they have to think aboutwhat it is they experienced and
how that relates to other thingsthat they've learned and how
they can apply it in the future.
Um, because without that, the perspectivetaking doesn't, doesn't really happen and
doesn't really have a whole lot of value.
Yeah.
In addition to that, right, we, inresponding to the student feedback,
(29:33):
we also needed the faculty who areinvolved in teaching the bulk of the
General Education courses, right, and,and designing, you know, informing the
curriculum and the kinds of classes thatare included in our General Education
to be invested in that process as well.
And one thing that.
(29:54):
You know, I, I feel is absolutely truefor faculty and instructors who's,
like, the ones that teach our GeneralEducation are some of our best faculty and
instructors on this campus by far, right?
Like, they have the enthusiasm, theexpertise, and the experience with
teaching students, and they bringthat to the classroom, and we're proud
(30:14):
to getting them bought in on thisnew way of teaching and thinking.
Many of them were already doing thisalready, so it was a way to acknowledge
their work and to center effectiveteaching and learning in our General
Education curriculum that was maybepreviously under recognized, right?
Um, and one of the benefits now thatwe're starting to see that we've been
(30:36):
facilitating, uh, these two Bookendcourses is that then many of our faculty
and instructors who teach 101 or toteach 301 also teach General Education
classes and then students are takingtheir classes with them and they're
reading about, Oh, like I took thisclass with this person and they're
(30:56):
the author for my reading this week.
And then that faculty member is alsoconnected to a network of professionals
and instructors and faculty fromall across campus to share in their
teaching and and their pedagogy.
And then that informs how they thenshow up in their other classes,
their General Education classesor major or disciplinary areas.
(31:18):
So, it's taken a long time, right?
Like that kind of culture shiftdoesn't just happen when you
launch a new program, right?
But it takes a couple yearsbecause then, We get more folks
who are teaching the classes.
We have more students whoare taking the classes.
And so then they also arestarting to hear about it.
Right.
And it becomes a little bit moreof like, this is what we do.
(31:41):
We, we engage in reflection.
We take our Gen Eds and we, you know,have an understanding of what, what I
can get out of it and how that connects.
Um, so it's a large effort toget it going, but then actually
to sustain the work and make itmeaningful requires an ongoing.
Uh, faculty and instructionalcommunity, uh, to, to sustain
(32:03):
that work and to make it real.
Here's a preview of what's coming upnext in part two of my conversation
with Devon Thomas Jones and ThomasMurray from University of Arizona.
Yes, is there something about being humanthat makes reflection somewhat natural?
Perhaps.
But it's a skill, right?
It's like any other skill.
(32:24):
The more you do it, the more intentionalyou are, the more practice you have.
The better you get.
Welcome to DigicationScholars Conversations.
I'm your host, Jeff Yan.
In this episode, you will hearPart One of my conversation with
Devon Thomas Jones and ThomasMurray from University of Arizona.
Devon and Tom are course directorsfor University 301, General
Education Portfolio, and University101 Introduction to General
(00:22):
Education Experience, respectively.
They are both also AssociateProfessors of Practice at the W.
A.
Franke Honors College in theOffice of General Education.
More links and information about today'sconversation can be found on Digication's
Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.
Full episodes of Digication ScholarsConversations can be found on
(00:43):
YouTube or your favorite podcast app.
Welcome to DigicationScholars Conversations.
I'm your host, Jeff Yan.
My guests today are Devon ThomasJones, course director of University
301, General Education Portfolio,and Thomas Murray, course director
of University 101, Introduction tothe General Education Experience.
(01:05):
They are both AssociateProfessors of Practice at W.
A.
Franke Honors College and theOffice of General Education
at University of Arizona.
Welcome.
Thank you.
Thanks.
We usually do one on oneconversations, but I've always
known the both of you as a pair.
(01:25):
Um, I feel like we've alwaystalked to both of you.
Um, and so, um, I thought it would,it would be just, uh, uh, be useful
to, to, to have both of you onDigication Scholars Conversation.
Um, Now, you both direct, um, twodifferent, um, courses in the same sort of
(01:46):
Gen Ed program in University of Arizona.
Maybe for folks who are joining us who arenot even aware of what does all this mean?
What is Gen Ed, University 101, 301?
These are all lingos that sometimes,you know, even folks that are in
higher education get confused.
(02:06):
Could you, like, tell us a littlebit about what these, what these
courses are and what, what you do?
Sure.
Um, I think it's actually, it'sinteresting that you say a lot of
people might not understand all this is.
That's actually the purpose insome ways of both of our courses.
Um, it is to help students understandand make meaning of their General
(02:30):
Education coursework, um, whichprovides, uh, really broad and rich
foundation for, you know, whatevermajor or majors they might be pursuing.
So, our courses are actually designedto address that very issue at this
institution so that students know,you know, why are we doing this?
(02:51):
Like, what is the value ofdoing General Education?
How can I make it meaningful for myself?
How can I Describe to myselfand others what it is that I've
learned so that they're getting themost benefit out of that General
Education program that they can.
Um, and it is, it's,it's two bookends, right?
(03:12):
Which is why Devon and I often appearsimultaneously in the same spaces
because we're, we're, our coursesare two sides of the same coin.
And, um, could you tell, like, let'sstep back even one step further.
It's not one step.
You know, further from, from, fromthat for people who don't know
(03:34):
what General Education is, right?
So we, you talked about, well, what'sthe value of General Education?
Let me give people some examplesof what, what is General Education?
You know, if you've, if you, youare not in college yet, you are
thinking about attending college andyou hear about General Education,
but you don't know what that is.
How does one even startto understand that?
(03:55):
Sure.
I love talking about this.
That's why Devon waited.
She knows, she knows thatI love talking about this.
Um, so General Education is aboutdeveloping the whole person.
It's about developing ways of thinkingand ways of knowing that are not
just about Vocational trading, right?
(04:18):
Um, you know, students go to college,they want to get a really great career,
really great job out of it as they should.
Part of what supports that great career isthe capacity to think outside of kind of
the narrow focus of what that career is.
So, At the University of Arizona,for example, we have four learning
(04:41):
outcomes for our General Educationprogram, which are, um, Communicating
Effectively, Thinking Critically,Using Information Effectively
and Ethically, and Understandingand Valuing Differences, right?
So these, these learning outcomesdescribe skills that transcend
Any particular field, right?
No matter what field you're goinginto, your employer is going
(05:04):
to value your capacity to thinkcritically and problem solve.
They're going to value your abilityto communicate effectively in
writing, um, and speaking acrosscontexts, across audiences.
And General Education courseshelp develop that capacity.
And the great thing is then you can,you can take these courses that have Any
(05:28):
number of topics to them, um, because insome ways the topics don't even matter.
It's the, it's the ways of thinkingand doing that they're helping you
develop, um, that really matters.
So we, we have General Educationcourses at the U of A on zombies.
Uh, we have, um, some that areon like video games and video
games in societies, right?
(05:49):
And so these really broad topics,it doesn't really matter that
you're studying zombies, right?
What, What you're really learning aboutis how, through literature, humans
have created the idea of monstersand that way of thinking and, um,
understanding how humans, um, createdifferences between them, um, and
(06:13):
all sorts of ways of thinking that 20years from now, you're going to forget
what you learned about zombies, right?
But the way of thinking stays with you.
And that's a, that's a reallyhuge value of General Education.
I love that sense of these skillsare durable and transferable
over a long period of time.
And that, um, it's not specific todisciplines and content that Actually,
(06:42):
I, I think that I, you know, I've beentalking, you know, I, I have kids that
are sort of close to college age andyou know, I talk to them and their
friends and I feel like sometimesthere's this sort of notion that, you
know, when I go to college, I want toget a job at this, whatever, you know,
like give it a label, whatever that is.
(07:04):
And sometimes I think that there'sthis tension between that and
actually you also going there tolearn to become a better learner.
And that, that may be even moreimportant because that one skill that
you're mentioning now, um, that'sgoing to change in the next five, 10
years, 15, 20 years for sure, right?
(07:25):
And that, and that your, your foundationalskills to be able to learn is so much
more important because as those thingschange, um, those durable skills that
you were talking about, like, youknow, communicating effectively, quick
to thinking critically, um, Beingable to take information and what was
it, um, um, ethically and, uh, uh.
(07:46):
Effectively and ethically.
Effectively and ethically, um,and I forgot the last one, um.
Understanding and valuing difference.
Understanding, yeah.
And, and these are all things that, um,they're like evergreen topics, right?
There are things that will apply to usNot only for any specific content area,
(08:08):
but also just in life, in leadership,in relationships with people, um,
and finding meaning in general.
And so I, I, I think that there, youknow, I think that there's, there is,
there is this weird tension of studentstoday thinking about going to college,
attending college, and there's thisidea that like, oh, I attend college.
(08:31):
What is your major?
You know, what am I going to get a job at?
Of course, there's the tensionof also student loans and so on.
So you want to be ableto pay it back, right?
You want to be able to afford it.
But, you know, They think about, youknow, sort of that very practical
tension of, okay, if I'm going tobe a nurse, why do I have to learn
how to do all these other things?
And the idea is, you know, and,and that's really what you guys do.
(08:54):
You're like, hold on a minute.
Actually, whether you want to bea nurse or an engineer or a lawyer
or a doctor, these are all thingsthat's going to apply to you.
Right, right.
Well, and, and, um, A strongGeneral Education foundation
cuts across industry, right?
And so to think about your GeneralEducation, um, typically, right, in U.
(09:16):
S.
uh, colleges and universities,this is a large component of your
degree requirement, um, anywherefrom maybe a quarter to a third
of the number of credits thatyou need to complete your degree.
And we also know, right, that with anever changing, like, job market and
industry and the way that things arechanging and we're preparing folks to
(09:37):
graduate into careers that don't exist.
Um, it also then makes your degreemore valuable because it makes it more
transferable to different industries.
So when you are studying to be a creativewriter, the kinds of skill sets you
need Working for a law firm is goingto maybe look a lot different than if
you're working in a marketing or adagency, but being able to effectively
(10:01):
work on a team or delegate, like, thoseare things that are required in either
of those industries, and those are thekinds of skills and mindsets that you get
to practice and get a lot of experiencein through your General Education.
So, yes, I think sometimes, um,it can feel like with the cost of
college and with the time to degreethat the urgency around, well, I want
(10:25):
to get these things out of the way.
I want to complete my gen eds as fast aspossible because I want to get to the, the
good stuff when I'm here to study, right?
Um, but rather if we can reframeit as, this is part of the value
that you get to take with you.
regardless of where you end up with yourdegree that, that adds a layer, um, of
transferability and applicability that maynot exist if you end up taking, you know,
(10:49):
getting a degree in something and notactually then ending up in that industry.
No, I love that.
And I, I, I have a, I have a Somethingthat I want to check with you on,
and this is something that I, I.
I feel like that I've heard a lot ofpeople say, and I can hypothesize,
but I don't know whether you knowpeople, you know, I mean, you are, you
(11:12):
are the pros here, you know, so youmight, you have more to say about this.
I really feel like that for peoplewho have gained these skills, right?
Like you said, top, the subject matteritself wasn't even the point of it.
You could be studying zombies, um, but.
Once you've gained these, you know,sort of foundational skills, you know,
(11:33):
to thinking, to be, to be someonewho can, you know, who can think
critically, et cetera, it actuallymakes you more effective a learner,
whatever field you go into anyway.
So if we were to think about likeyour, roughly speaking, a four year
undergraduate education, I knowpeople, you know, can fluctuate, you
know, those four years are not exact.
(11:54):
Um, That you spend some of some portionof the time developing these skills.
You'll spend some other timesdeveloping skills in specific,
you know, more narrow disciplines.
But the times that you actually, onceyou have these skills, when you go
into the disciplines, you're goingto be a much more effective learner.
I believe that the net result is actuallythat you are better at everything.
(12:21):
Like the net benefit after four years,let's say, is Better than if you had
spent four years, day one, go to nursing101 and you'd skipped all of this.
You would be a good nurse, but you wouldbe a better nurse if you actually spent
some of that time, even half of that timein General Education, and then only spend
(12:41):
half the time in nursing because duringthe half, half the time being in nursing,
you're actually doing more like you'rebeing more effective as a, as a learner.
What do you think about that hypothesis?
I completely agree with thatbecause because nursing doesn't
happen in a vacuum, right?
Engineering doesn't happen in a vacuum.
You engineer for people.
You engineer for communities.
You engineer for cities, right?
(13:02):
You engineer in a, in a complex system.
You nurse in a complex system.
You teach in a complex system.
And so you need to understandand be able to interact with that
system, um, in, in complex ways.
Because if all you, if all you knoware the technicalities of nursing,
That's a very limited understandingof what it means to be a nurse.
(13:27):
And the skills that you gainoutside of your industry make
you that more complex thinker.
And I think Jeff, you, you mentionedearlier, it's not just about your career.
It's about your personal life.
It's about your relationships, right?
These, these skills that youdevelop in General Education go
way beyond the career, right?
It, It changes, you know, if you arean effective communicator, and in 15
(13:50):
years you decide that you want to be avolunteer coach for your kid's sports
team, that effective communicationis going to benefit you as a coach
on your kid's sports team, right?
Um, so there's so much value to itother than, you know, You know, how
it's going to impact your career.
Right.
And I mean, Thanksgiving is comingup, um, you know, at that Thanksgiving
(14:13):
dinner table, if you want to effectivelycommunicate with your, with your, your
family, um, that's, uh, then this willbe a skill that, that, uh, you can come
back from, you know, college to use that.
Um, I, I want to, I want to pickup on that, um, Tom, a little
bit, maybe go a little bit in the,uh, Tangential sort of direction.
(14:39):
I think I agree with you.
A lot of these skills are, you know,applicable in so many ways, right?
I think that there is something thatwhen I see your program and I see your
students work and, and some of thethings that we've talked about, it's
also about getting students to have asense of mission and purpose, a sense
(15:01):
of 'What am I doing in this world?'
What's going to make me feel asense of fulfillment and joy?
Um, that goes beyond the financialrewards, the, even the, you
know, fame, basically beyondthe fame and fortune, right?
(15:23):
Um, I, I, I sometimes think that maybein the Western culture and in in the
United States, we don't, Talk about thatso much, you know, um, but, but these
are things that I think that our studentsare, have been feeling, especially in the
(15:47):
last few years after COVID, especiallyafter COVID after, um, um, you know,
these, you know, those years of sort ofisolation and sort of trying to think
about meaning and, and it's sort oflike a wake up call for everyone, right?
Um, And I, I, I have found alot of people, young people are
(16:11):
actually having these conversations.
You know, some of it is about worklife balance, but it's actually a lot
more about, you know, some of them arelike, I, I, I don't want to, um, be an
engineer and just work on how to make abanner ad, you know, be more effective.
(16:31):
Um, even if that were goingto pay you a lot of money,
um, they don't want that job.
They want something alittle bit more meaningful.
That's a part of Conversation that Ihave with people that make gives me so
much hope and and optimism about theworld But I think it really comes from
Opportunities that you are providingto your students through these courses.
(16:55):
Yeah, we have we have a lot of studentswho Um, when they get to U of A and
they, and they take, in a unit ofone to one, when we're trying to get
them to explore things that they'reinterested in, they actually, in a lot
of ways, they're stymied by it, right?
Like, they, they'reconfused by the question.
(17:16):
When we ask them, like,what are you curious about?
What do you want to learn?
It actually, is a moment of panic forsome of them because in 12 years of
formal education, some of them havenever had an educator ask them, what
is it that you're curious about, right?
Um, and so it's this, this kind ofaha moment for them of understanding
(17:39):
that what they're interested in,uh, has value and it's important.
And it can actually direct theirlearning and, oh my goodness,
maybe even make learning fun.
Um, it's, it's such arevelation for some of them.
Um, and I know on the, on the other end,you started off by talking about purpose.
I know that Devon's got plenty of examplesof, of students who in the portfolio
(18:03):
process have kind of found that purpose.
Yeah.
And I think what we're hoping to do,um, You know, these, the courses that
Tom and I lead, right, um, are reallyasking students, um, to forefront,
like, what's in it for them, right?
(18:24):
And what have they learned?
And then how does thatlearning matter to them?
And I think that that is a pedagogicalshift, uh, in mindset that Many
students are unfamiliar with becauseso much of it is tell me what I've
taught you and demonstrate that youknow and have received the information.
And, um, it's not to say thatthat still doesn't happen, right?
(18:48):
But really to center, um, and put theresponsibility on the student as the
learner and drivers of their meaningmaking, uh, gives purpose, uh, like
a new light and then in turn we knowthat when we understand why we're
doing something and what value itmight offer me, I'm more like energized
(19:12):
to follow through on it, right?
It, it adds a layer of motivationand commitment to learning, um,
that may not exist otherwise.
Um, so I think that that's an excitingmoment for students, um, and something
that We try to preserve, uh, asmuch as, right, in, in higher ed and
(19:33):
education, there's always externalfactors that place pressure on
curriculum, on, um, you know, standardsof learning and things like that.
But to preserve the piece that the studentis the primary agent and responsible for
their learning and we're here to supportthat learning, um, is something that we,
Keep close and in our work and our values.
(19:56):
Yeah.
Can I say something that I thinkpeople Really sometimes don't
realize what you all do is hard work.
It's really hard work You are youknow, it's it's almost like to me.
It feels like if I were to compare,you know Here's ten things.
I just want students to remember themand then test them on it It almost
(20:18):
feels, Oh man, that would have been easy.
Right.
But what you guys do are saying, Oh no,we are trying to get to every person and
try to try to figure out who they eachare, that they are going to come up with
answers that we, we, we have no idea.
We get, we have to read each ofthem, each, each one of them.
We have to understand each one of them.
(20:39):
We have to take into context and come upwith a way to give them feedback, right?
That's a lot more work than justsaying, what are the 10 correct answers?
I can just check it, yes orno, and then be done, right?
So I think that people sometimes almost,I almost feel like, you know, there's,
I talked to some students that go,well, I'm thinking about just going to
(21:01):
do this little bootcamp or whatever.
I'm not saying those things are bad.
I just think that they have no idea.
Like they're not even comparing applesto to this is apples and and trees, you
know, it's not even They're like in adifferent league or completely different
league And and so so so and speaking ofhard work I want to talk a little bit
(21:27):
about the scale in which you do thisin because I've heard people that go,
well, that'd be nice because you arein the, uh, Liberal Arts, you know,
program where you have 12 students inyour class, you can all discuss and,
you know, have this like wonderful,you know, cohort and, and do all that.
(21:49):
Can you tell, Tell us a little bitabout the scale in which you work in.
I mean, you have, by the way,everything you said is, you know,
is great, is personalized, isambitious, is customized, right?
But at what scale?
Are we talking about like 30 students?
Are we talking about 50 students?
What are we talking about?
We're talking about a lot of students.
(22:11):
So our, our classes are capped at 27.
Students right now are individual sectionsof our classes, but, um, UNIV 101 is,
is, well, UNIV 101 and 301 are requiredfor all students who are admitted as
first year students to the University ofArizona, which is about 9, 000 students.
(22:31):
Each fall, um, plus a few spring admits.
And now, you know, also with Arizonaonline, we have, um, you know, much
smaller, but still a population there.
Um, so scaling it was a challenge.
I mean, we, we piloted UNIV 101 with14 sections in the spring of 22 and
(22:51):
had to scale it to like 340 sections.
in the space of four months.
Um, and so it's, it's a, it'sa, it's a big lift, right?
And so, and three, you know, youknow, 301 is probably, I don't
know, Devon, maybe a year away frombeing at full, kind of full growth.
And so we're, we're talkingabout 7 to 800 sections of...
(23:16):
between the two classes a year, um,and at 27 students a section, if you've
got some good quantitative reasoningskills, you can figure out it's a lot of
sections, and it's a lot of instructors.
Um, it's a lot of classroom space for,you know, one on one, which is in person.
Um, it's a lot of grading.
So, um, the scaling has beenreally big, um, but it can happen.
(23:43):
And we've heard the same thing, like, oh,it's, it, it can't, you can't do something
like that at an institution this size.
Well, you can if it's aninstitutional priority, right?
So I want people who arelistening to realize how how
crazy this, these numbers are.
So we're talking about, it's not, we'renot trying to like do this with, you
(24:06):
know, like 12 students in a class andthat luxurious, you know, classroom.
We're talking about, you know, like9, 000 students a year coming through.
Every single year.
So every single year you get 9, 000 freshnew students going through this process.
So that's, and that's in 101.
And so then you've got, you know, now sixto seven a year who are going through 301.
(24:34):
So, so we're talking, you know,well north of 15, 000 students a
year go through The courses thatyou both direct and this is by all
means, it's, it's a huge team effort.
There's a lot of faculty members, a lotof, a lot of different folks, um, in it.
And in fact, I remember, um, seeingthe, um, uh, You know, General Education
(24:59):
webpage at University of Arizona.
And there are like, I mean, the staffis like a huge list, um, you know,
just to just include everyone in there.
Right.
Um, there's, uh, thereare many professors.
There are many assistants.
There are, there are, there are, there area lot of people that, that make this work,
(25:20):
but you only can make it work becauseit's a priority for the institution.
So tell me about.
I'll tell all of us about why, like, howdid that happen at University of Arizona?
General Education.
In some schools, it's alwaysbeen called General Education.
In some schools, it'sLiberal Arts studies.
(25:41):
Sometimes they're called,you know, something else.
Um, foundational programsor skills, you know.
There's all kinds of, you know, waysthat people, different schools call it.
Um, I believe that you've had a GeneralEducation program for a long time.
But you, uh, Like you said, in 2022started rolling out a new version of it.
(26:05):
I mean, this is a huge undertaking, right?
This is not a, this is one ofthose things that people think.
And I want to dismiss somemyths, like college are doing the
same thing over and over again.
Well, they, I guess it depends onthe scale and the, and the time
timeline you're talking about.
Sometimes they do the samethings, but when, and they,
(26:25):
they're not sitting still either.
Um, and when something work, they doit for a while and then they, when
they realize that something needs tobe changed, they actually make changes.
And, and this is a great example of aninstitution of your size, being able
to just go, we're gonna pick up thisentire General Education program that's
been in existence for many years andwe're gonna revamp the whole thing.
(26:49):
Right?
Can you tell us a little bit about that?
It must be, must be quite an effort.
I look it up.
Too many, too many.
I know.
It brings up a lot of memories.
I think, I think the most importantthing for me to always keep in mind Um,
when I talk about the General Educationrefresh, is that it was done very
(27:17):
intentionally and in, and in many waysdone in response to student feedback.
And I think that is really importantbecause one of the values of our office of
General Education is really, um, focusingon the student experience and student
autonomy and, um, and what we learned.
(27:38):
from talking to students is that they,not surprisingly, didn't understand the
purpose of General Education, didn'tunderstand why they had to do it, what
they were learning, what they had learned,and we really wanted the new program
to respond to those concerns, right?
We also wanted to respond to, youknow, our Board of Regents, and we
(28:00):
wanted to respond to other externalconstituents, but, like, we want to
respond to these student issues thatwere being raised that, um, the students
weren't finding value in it, and oneof the reasons why students weren't
finding value in it is because they werefocused on content acquisition, right?
They were focusing on learning aboutzombies, and the fact that learning about
(28:24):
zombies is not practical informationand making this mindset shift and
cultural shift at the institution fromcontent to perspective taking, right?
That like, through learning about zombies,you develop an entirely new perspective
on history, on literature, on um, onthe ways that that human storytelling
(28:47):
happens, like that perspective is thevalue of General Education as much or more
so as learning the thing about zombies.
Um, but that also you have to,you have to invest time and effort
in making meaning of it, right?
So students engage in a lot of reflectionin these classes because that's the
process by which students make meaningof what they're learning, right?
(29:11):
That they, they have to think aboutwhat it is they experienced and
how that relates to other thingsthat they've learned and how
they can apply it in the future.
Um, because without that, the perspectivetaking doesn't, doesn't really happen and
doesn't really have a whole lot of value.
Yeah.
In addition to that, right, we, inresponding to the student feedback,
(29:33):
we also needed the faculty who areinvolved in teaching the bulk of the
General Education courses, right, and,and designing, you know, informing the
curriculum and the kinds of classes thatare included in our General Education
to be invested in that process as well.
And one thing that.
(29:54):
You know, I, I feel is absolutely truefor faculty and instructors who's,
like, the ones that teach our GeneralEducation are some of our best faculty and
instructors on this campus by far, right?
Like, they have the enthusiasm, theexpertise, and the experience with
teaching students, and they bringthat to the classroom, and we're proud
(30:14):
to getting them bought in on thisnew way of teaching and thinking.
Many of them were already doing thisalready, so it was a way to acknowledge
their work and to center effectiveteaching and learning in our General
Education curriculum that was maybepreviously under recognized, right?
Um, and one of the benefits now thatwe're starting to see that we've been
(30:36):
facilitating, uh, these two Bookendcourses is that then many of our faculty
and instructors who teach 101 or toteach 301 also teach General Education
classes and then students are takingtheir classes with them and they're
reading about, Oh, like I took thisclass with this person and they're
(30:56):
the author for my reading this week.
And then that faculty member is alsoconnected to a network of professionals
and instructors and faculty fromall across campus to share in their
teaching and and their pedagogy.
And then that informs how they thenshow up in their other classes,
their General Education classesor major or disciplinary areas.
(31:18):
So, it's taken a long time, right?
Like that kind of culture shiftdoesn't just happen when you
launch a new program, right?
But it takes a couple yearsbecause then, We get more folks
who are teaching the classes.
We have more students whoare taking the classes.
And so then they also arestarting to hear about it.
Right.
And it becomes a little bit moreof like, this is what we do.
(31:41):
We, we engage in reflection.
We take our Gen Eds and we, you know,have an understanding of what, what I
can get out of it and how that connects.
Um, so it's a large effort toget it going, but then actually
to sustain the work and make itmeaningful requires an ongoing.
Uh, faculty and instructionalcommunity, uh, to, to sustain
(32:03):
that work and to make it real.
Here's a preview of what's coming upnext in part two of my conversation
with Devon Thomas Jones and ThomasMurray from University of Arizona.
Yes, is there something about being humanthat makes reflection somewhat natural?
Perhaps.
But it's a skill, right?
It's like any other skill.
(32:24):
The more you do it, the more intentionalyou are, the more practice you have.
The better you get.
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