Host Jeff Yan discusses with Clea Ramos, a senior at Bucknell University majoring in Computer Engineering and minoring in Studio Arts, in this episode of Digication Scholars Conversations.
They explore her unique educational journey, the influence of her Filipino heritage, and how her experiences shaped her passion for integrating technical and artistic skills.
Clea also shares insights into her engineering projects, the importance of reflective practice, and her career aspirations in VR/AR and web development.
The episode highlights the value of empathy, diverse perspectives in engineering, and Clea's dedication to making meaningful contributions to society.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to DigicationScholars Conversations.
I'm your host, Jeff Yan.
In this episode, you will hear part oneof my conversation with Clea Ramos, a
student studying Computer Engineeringand Studio Arts at Bucknell University.
More links and information about today'sconversation can be found on Digication's
Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.
(00:21):
Full episodes of Digication ScholarsConversations can be found on
YouTube or your favorite podcast app.
Welcome to DigicationScholars Conversations.
I'm your host, Jeff Yan.
My guest today is Clea Ramos, a studentstudying computer engineering and
studio art at Bucknell University.
Hello, Clea.
(00:42):
Hello.
It's nice to meet you.
Thank you for having me.
I am so happy that you're here.
Um, I have been, uh, working with andcollaborating with your, one of your
professors, uh, Rebecca Thomas, who isactually also a, um, prior Digication
Scholars Conversations guests.
Um, and we often talk about you know,the, the, the kind of, um, pedagogical,
(01:06):
uh, approach that she has, you know,for her students and then some, and,
and which we both admire, but then,you know, sometimes you talk about
who are some of your students that aredoing really great work and she had, I
feel very grateful that she had sharedthree portfolios that you have created.
Um, I, I saw them.
I. You know, I, I read them and, uh,I was so inspired and I said, Hey,
(01:33):
um, Rebecca, would you mind if, can wehave her on the Digication Scholars?
And that's how this came to be.
And thank you for, you know,making yourself available.
So you are a senior.
Yes.
Um, so are you majoring both incomputer engineering and studio arts?
I am majoring in computer engineeringand because I've always taken art in
(01:57):
elementary school and high school, Iwanted to pursue arts, especially at a
Liberal Arts Institution at Bucknell.
I was able to take, uh, five artclasses, so I'm minoring in studio art,
mostly focusing on the digital arts.
That's awesome.
So tell me a little bit about yourself.
I. I, I want to say that you,um, you, you have a connection
(02:17):
with, you, are you a Filipino?
Maybe you have familiesfrom the Philippines.
Is that correct?
Yeah.
So my parents are immigrants, um,and I'm a first generation student.
So I grew up in Stanford,Connecticut and went to school there.
And um, I'm now at Bucknell University.
So I, uh, really pride myself on beingFilipino and even at Bucknell, I'm a part
(02:38):
of the Filipino student association here.
And so you're, you're parents areimmigrants, you're a first gen, you
know, U. S., you know, you grew up,you, you said you were born here?
Yes, I was born here.
And, um, what was thatexperience like for you?
Yeah, so, uh, elementary school, I have anolder brother, we went to a small private
(02:58):
school called Waterside School and itwas a school that prioritized minorities.
So I grew up in a really tight knitcommunity where everyone knew each
other and that school, um, helpedminority and people of culture go
into a really good private schoolsfor middle school and high school.
So then I went on to GreenwichAcademy and my brother went on
to its brother school, Brunswick.
(03:19):
So we both grew up goingto that environment.
And there I was able tolearn more about, um.
Engineering and art and where I foundmy passions there and then since then,
from my high school to Bucknell, um,because those, my high school and
Bucknell are predominantly white, Ireally wanted to stay in touch with
(03:40):
the cultural side because I grew upwith that in my elementary school.
So me and a few friends at Bucknellcame together and we saw Asian
galas happening, all of these eventshappening with all their culturals
and we wanted to participate.
So we created, um, the Philippine studentassociation and we have, uh, bi-weekly
meetings where we help, um, advocate forFilipino culture and have fun events.
(04:05):
And we're participatingin an Asian gala soon.
That is awesome.
I am a huge, huge fan of Filipino foods.
Yes.
What is your favorite?
Chicken adobo.
Yes, I do love chicken adobo.
My favorite is sinigang.
It's a sour soup.
Yes, I know that.
Yeah, I love it.
Yeah.
That's awesome.
(04:25):
I myself from, um, grew up inHong Kong and then I moved here.
So like this, I am the first gen,you know, immigrants in my family,
first gen college attendee as well.
So I really love that you are takingthat culture, um, that you are so
proud of and making something of it.
(04:46):
I think that's, that'sreally, that's really amazing.
I would say that one of the thingsthat I was so drawn by your work
and your portfolio is, is thatyou do a lot of reflections.
The portfolios I saw.
Um, I know that you, you have thoseportfolios and then you have another
portfolio that linked to a notion site.
(05:08):
Um, that is your art portfolio as well.
Um, it's amazing to see all of thesedifferent, you know, linkages, you know,
everywhere, um, one of the things thatI was, you know, after seeing all three
of your portfolios, I really flickedthrough every page, by the way, um, I
read, I read all of it and, um, what'sreally the consistent sense of, you know,
(05:32):
what you do to reflect on your learning.
I remember so vividly that.
In one of your projects, itwas about provide a way to, to
monitor the health of water.
Um, right.
And in some of your finding atthe end, you go, well, you know,
like we have some limitations in.
(05:55):
The hardware that we have availableto us and, and the technology and
so on, but you were able to, you,you learned quite a bit from it.
Um, but those things that you learn thatI thought were the most interesting were
things like iterative design process.
Um, how you communicate,um, how are you as a leader?
(06:16):
How do you do time management?
How do you think about collaboration?
And yes, you also have theexperience of dealing, you know,
learning the technical skills of.
Working with the limitations ofthe, the, the technology that you
had available to you at the time.
But those are the kinds of things likethe microcontroller system, you know?
(06:36):
Yeah.
But those are the kinds of things that,um, in many ways, that's the thing that is
going to continue to change very quickly.
In fact, I bet you that if you were doingthe project this, this spring again.
It's already different, right?
Because there will be abetter microcontroller.
There will be a better circuit board.
There will be a better set oftechnologies available to you, right?
(06:59):
And maybe the conditionwould have changed.
You would work withdifferent people, right?
But it's all of those skills that isabout, um, you know, your own learning
process that feels like is, Is one that isconstantly built one after on top of the
other, like that to me is what I got outof, like, after reading these portfolios.
(07:24):
What do you think about that?
Yes.
So I remember coming in my freshman year,spring semester, when I had my first
ECEG - Electrical and Computer Engineeringcourse with Professor Rebecca Thomas.
And throughout that whole semester, wewere tasked to create a, uh, ePortfolios.
I think that was probablythe first year it launched at
(07:46):
Bucknell, so we were all new to it.
So we were wondering, oh,what do we put on here?
We're not too familiar how itworks, but we worked on it since
the beginning of the semester andbuilt on it, um, every few weeks.
And it corresponded to writing downwhat we wanted to do as a career
and finding someone to interviewon a career we're interested in.
And through that process, like,Um, looking at, uh, research
(08:09):
videos, research articles andreflecting on what we want to do.
And I think that was the firsttime I've reflected like that
in an engineering context.
So from there, that was thefirst ePortfolio I've done.
And at the end I had a record of, um, howI thought about my careers and my interest
and how that applied to what I value.
(08:32):
So I valued doing something creative.
I value being able to doboth technical and art.
And that reflection process is somethingthat you typically don't get in
other STEM classes, such as math ormore technical engineering classes.
So I find it a very valuable skill,especially as I moved on to higher level
engineering classes where you're stilldoing technical work, but sometimes it's
(08:55):
too technical to the point where youdon't realize the bigger context of it and
how it fits in with real world problems.
So, the ePortfolio that you werementioning in that project, the
water monitoring system was formy junior design, um, electrical
engineering and computerengineering course, uh, last spring.
So, the problem are.
(09:16):
Professors gave for us was to chooseone of the U. N. Sustainability goals
to create a potential solution for andour class chose the problem of providing
clean water and sanitation to all.
So the first half of the course wasn'tactually making a technical solution.
The first part is reflecting on thebigger problem and the context as a
(09:38):
whole, identifying the stakeholders,the people involved, um, any
electrical, um, processes involved.
So that course, that part of the course,um, was really valuable to see how.
You can reflect and not onlyfocus on the technical, but
that real, real world aspect.
And still today, I feel like I havea more, um, holistic view of how to
(10:02):
approach problems because of thatreflection process in engineering
and that I, I see, I asked my otherfriends and other majors like mechanical
engineering or chemical engineering.
They don't really have as much ofa, um, design track or a reflection
process as ECEG does, uh, ECEG beingElectrical and Computer Engineering.
So I'm grateful how, for how much I'vebeen able to reflect and show that in
(10:27):
my ePortfolios because I can always lookback and not only see that technical
progress, but also that reflectingprocess of where did I get stuck?
How did I improve?
And then what really matters ishow do I improve in the future too?
And what do I make of this?
What do I take from it going forward?
I was thinking about, I saw, I, one ofthe things that I read that it was so
(10:48):
interesting because I heard the samestories as well, which was, I think
you were saying something about, youknow, your parents had told me of their
process of fetching water, you know,from wells and having to walk and, you
know, like they basically have to walk.
You know, through like, it's terribleis through hills and, and, and,
(11:11):
and, and bad weather conditions andwhatnot, just to get water so that
you can bring back fetch water.
And my, my parents were, oh, my,my dad, his family, his family
were refugees from, from China.
During world war two and, um, they,they didn't have that water fetching
(11:35):
thing because they were livingin Hong Kong, which is, you know,
sort of a pretty dense city, butoftentimes they will run out of water.
And so everyone has to goget in line to get water.
And I remember him.
Telling me that, you know, like,sometimes they don't even have the
instruments to carry the water.
So they just take plastic, like grocerybags, like plastic bags, just take water.
(12:00):
And sometimes they break after you getin line for hours and then get to it.
And then you're like, hopefullythe plastic bag hold up and
then they can bring it home.
And, and to be honest, once youget home, what do you do with it?
You know, hold on to it.
A collapsible plasticbag, you know what I mean?
So I'm like hearing these stories and,and I could, I remember reading that
(12:22):
part and I'm thinking, you know, thereis something that you can take that
experience that is so, even though youdidn't, it came from your culture, it
came from, you know, like stories thatyou were able to get from your parents.
Uh, it probably means something alittle bit different to you than to,
To others, you know, and it creates adifferent set of meaning to, to the work.
(12:45):
And I, I think that these are the typesof things that create sort of a sense
of like purpose that drives the projectthat drives it differently from then.
If your professor just gave you,here's the problem, go solve it.
Yes.
You, you made this connectionthat goes, man, like.
(13:10):
Like, it's not just a problem to solve,but it's so critical because I can't
imagine going through life withoutthat, without access to water and that
the alternative is to do that, like,that's not a good way to live, right?
Um, so it changes the way thatyou approach it, doesn't it?
It creates more value because, becauseyou reflect on why this matters.
(13:34):
You're not doing it just fora class, just to get a grade.
You're doing it for the people who arein need, the people who don't have access
to this technology, to this clean water.
And that's why it's so importantin the beginning to reflect on
who are the stakeholders and whodoes this project affect, because.
That is where you get thatvalue for the project.
(13:56):
And sometime, one thing we did thinkabout was that our system required wifi
because we wanted to push it to ThingSpeakor, um, an online service where you can
read the data of how clean your water is.
And we were also wondering, Oh, wewanted to place these devices in, um
developing countries or people like,yeah, just developing countries.
(14:20):
So we were wondering, Oh, do all ofthose places have access to wifi?
So it's also being considerate of therealistic resources that are available.
So we weren't able to interviewanyone from the places that we
wanted to, potentially, per theproject, but that's also important
getting real world, um, resources andhaving that connection to who you're
(14:43):
actually creating the product for.
And I, I think that there issomething maybe even, I want to go
like a little bit more meta on this.
Um, I feel like that, you know, youhave learned in that particular, oh, we
can pick this particular case, right?
(15:04):
Like you, you have this water projectanyway, and then you were able to, to,
to give it more purpose by empatheticallyplacing yourself in people's shoes,
because these are your parents.
Literal shoes and how they, that hadto walk through, you know, you know,
like, you know, the streets and the,you know, difficult conditions to
(15:27):
even just to get access to water.
That's how it would, what it wouldbe like if you don't have this.
Right.
So I think that this idea that, um,yeah, finding purpose and drive to it is,
is, is important, you know, but I alsowould point out one more thing, which.
I, I'm very interested in how studentsare finding new paths as they create their
(15:51):
neural pathways and how they think aboutthe world and make sense of the world.
So in your case, there is also anabstracted path that sets If I come
across a new problem or a new thingthat I want to solve in life or a new
(16:12):
way to think about the world, I canlook into real world situation, people
I know, people, you know, um, thingsthat I've experienced and use that
as a way to inform how I might drive,how to answer that question, right?
(16:32):
So it's one layer more abstractedthan just saying, Oh, I know in
terms of water, this is the answer.
And I get that.
And I think everyone who'd belistening would be like, Oh, wow.
Yeah.
Like some listenersmay identify with that.
Some would go this firsttime I ever heard of it.
As far as I know in the whole world, youturn on the tab and there comes water.
(16:52):
Right.
Um, and then there are people, by theway, that has taken that for granted
and didn't realize it in this city.
Right?
If you think about Flintin Michigan, right?
Yeah, we did that, butthe water wasn't safe.
Right?
So everyone has different stories andthey can, you can take that, but it's the
idea that you are, you have now created anew path that says, I'm going to be able
(17:15):
to take other experiences that I've hadand then make these kinds of connections.
So to me, that is one layer, a moresophisticated Like two layers, more
sophisticated than just someone said,here's a project, solve it, right?
Here's a bunch of water, find away to wirelessly, I don't know,
(17:38):
detect is contaminant or, youknow, whether it's safe to drink.
And I think it's also trying to putyourself in the shoes of the people who
are going through this problem becauselike The empathy and the relationship.
Yeah, right.
Yeah.
Because one of the things that I thinkwe can all work on here at Bucknell and,
(17:58):
and under engineering projects is thatempathy and just being considerate of
who we're making these projects for andhow are we designing for, for them, not
just so it works and it's functional, butto prioritize, um, the value it creates.
That's something that I really admireabout Bucknell, being It has a very
(18:20):
strong engineering program and you'revery brilliant professors who've, you
know, who are very accomplished, but atthe same time, there is a, a very, um,
equally strong liberal arts, um, focus.
(18:40):
I want to talk a little bit about that.
Like I, I'd imagine that you have thechoice and also probably the ability,
you know, to go to schools that aremore purely engineering focused, more
technical, um, maybe less like, sothe liberal arts, you know, sort of,
(19:02):
uh, influenced, um, institutions.
Why did you choose a place where Theliberal art, you can't, you couldn't
just say, I'm going to ignore that.
I'm just going to do the engineering part.
Right.
Um, why did you choose that?
Yes, so when I was applying forcolleges, um, my senior year, one
(19:25):
class that I took that I was reallyinspired by was my engineering
and design course in high school.
So that course was 'an intro toengineering' where we learned, uh, to
learn fabrication techniques such aslaser cutting, 3D printing, working with
perf boards, bread boards, soldering.
But in addition to all of thosetechnical components, we have
(19:45):
different projects for those.
We also got to do and incorporate artisticstyle to each one of those projects.
So one of the projects was a synthesizeror kind of a musically electronic device
that would play music when you turnit on, rotate the volume and sound.
And we got to it.
Decorate the enclosure of it.
So I had a really fun time usingAdobe Photoshop and illustrator to
(20:09):
create those, um, that enclosure.
So not only was it artistic, itwas also technical in that sense.
And because I love that class somuch, my teachers and my advisor were
pushing me to go into engineering.
So one of the reasons I chose Bucknellwas for its engineering program.
And also as I was searching, I sawBucknell had a lot of opportunities
(20:29):
for the arts, even though it is small.
I did.
I wasn't sure if I wantedto pursue arts in college.
I just knew I wanted to do a computerengineering, or I actually came in
as a computer science major becauseI really enjoyed that problem solving
aspect of code and I knew Bucknellhad strong engineering program,
but I came in as computer science.
Um, I wasn't sure if I wanted to do artbecause I was intimidated by the process
(20:52):
of getting graded by art because sometimeswhen I'm graded at doesn't feel like
uniquely me and I can do whatever I want,I'm doing it for someone else for a grade.
So I wasn't sure if I wanted to doart, but when I came in to Bucknell,
I saw that they had a Res. CollegeProgram, Residential Colleges.
So you can take a class with the peoplein your hall for your first semester
(21:13):
and get to know that community.
So I joined the Arts Res College andI got to know those people really
well and they're still friends.
I'm still really great friendswith them to this day, like a whole
floor of us are still friends.
So that community and the size alsomade Bucknell very appealing because
everyone knows everyone and youhave such unique connection to those
(21:34):
people because I also grew up insmall environments, small schools.
And I also joined, um, apre-orientation program with arts folks.
So having that arts was reallyimportant to me and I knew at
Bucknell I could achieve both of them.
So after learning more about theengineering program, I switched
from computer science, which is moresoftware based, to computer engineering,
(21:57):
which is a combination of hardwareand software, because my engineering
and design course in high school wasmore, um, electrical component based.
So I knew I wanted todo hands on components.
So that's where the microcontrollersand the sensors come in.
So that's why I came in asthen computer engineering.
And then I started, um, pursuinga studio art degree or studio
(22:21):
art minor in my sophomore year.
And since then I've found a reallygreat way to combine my design skills
because I've learned design in anengineering context and design in
an art context and graphic design.
And I find it really interesting theways that you talk with your clients.
You talk with people that you needto interview for your project,
(22:43):
and then you keep iterating anditerating and going back, fixing
anything, any mistakes to improve it.
And you have this final project,but it's not, nothing is
ever really final in design.
You always keep iterating, you'reonly limited by time and resources.
So that's why I really love theconnection between engineering and
art because of that creation process.
(23:06):
And Bucknell allows me to do that.
So, I'm really glad that I wasable to pursue that and hopefully
take these skills to the nextopportunity after Bucknell.
I love all of this.
And I think that it's so great that you.
You know, through this, all of theseopportunities, I think that this idea of
you developing that sense of, you know,what kind of response, I think you wrote
(23:30):
somewhere, I want to be a responsibleengineer or something like that.
So I'm going to do that effect, um, is.
Is, is so clear that it comes fromthis kind of grounding, you know,
I, I will say that, uh, in the, inthe 2010s, I lived in Silicon Valley
for about 10 years and, and I willhonestly say that I met some really
(23:55):
brilliant engineers, especially softwareengineers and, um, many of them with
advanced degrees and, and, you know,like feel like that they are certified
geniuses, you know, um, but, but they.
They are so well regarded by thebig, you know, seven companies that
(24:20):
rules the, you know, the world oftech, um, that, you know, they get
paid so much money, they get, theyget so many perks, um, that it was.
You know, that, that drive or thatdrive of, I want to be doing something
responsible or helping people and all ofthat sort of goes into the back burners.
(24:46):
And I, I really do think that there is aresponsibility for education institutions
to make sure that that aspect ofteaching does not get put into the back
burners or that you do it by having one.
(25:07):
Ethics course and, and call it done.
Um, you know, um, I, I, I think thatit's extremely dangerous otherwise,
because then now we have extremelysmart people yielding a huge amount of
power and a huge amount of influence.
Don't know what to do, right?
(25:28):
They, they don't, they haven't.
And I think I saw in one ofyour, um, actually I copied it
because I thought it was so cool.
You had said it was youdescribed in a reflection.
I'm going to read it out becauseI, I thought it was really cool.
Let me find it.
It says, Throughout Project 2, I learnedto develop creative thinking skills,
(25:49):
which was much different from Project1, as we had a set, clear objective.
But in Project 2, we had to come up withour own questions and exploration paths.
We had to discover ways tosolve our own questions.
So, that to me is a really, it'sreally, it's, it's something that
many, actually many schools don't do.
(26:09):
They don't let people do itbecause, because they just,
they have too many objectives.
They want to make suretheir students get there.
And if you were to ask your own questions,you may not do their objectives, right?
And so.
Just for the sake of, you know, beingefficient and make sure that they're
covering all of the checkboxes ofthings that they want you to cover.
(26:31):
They, they, they, uh, little bit thinking,well, you know, it's better that I
give you the problems, you solve it.
And then we know that you can solvethe problem, but you don't get to
ask the questions, like you said,if you are always going to be very
good at solving problems, so I've,I've met a lot of people who.
are brilliant at solving problems.
In fact, you, you mention anything andthey're like, I will solve it for you.
(26:56):
Whether you want them tosolve it for you or not.
Um, but if you ask them, youknow, what do you want to do, um,
they have a very difficult time.
Because it's almost like, They werenever given a choice and to give any
experience to, to be good at that.
And I find that being able to askquestions is, um, it should be
(27:21):
pretty much, you know, as importantas being able to answer them.
Yes.
But if we focus so much on being ableto answer the questions and we're
not allowed to ask, like be the oneasking the questions, it's difficult.
And I think that, you know,Education, if we look through
even our, it sounds like you had awonderful K 12, you know, experience.
(27:44):
But if we look at most curriculumin general, at least traditional
curriculum, um, at least I can saythat because yours may not be, have
been that way, is that students arerarely rewarded for asking questions.
Actually, there are Um, very oftenrewarded for answering questions.
In fact, that's what an exam looks like.
(28:05):
It's a bunch of questions.
Yes.
Um, it's not a bunch of, it's not abunch of questions you get to ask.
It's a bunch of questionsthat you have to answer.
And there is a sort of aright answer typically.
Right.
And so it really reflects on howlittle our education system or
(28:28):
maybe even our society valuesthe ability to ask questions.
Yes.
Because we test you on your abilityto answer them, but we never test
you on your ability to ask them.
Mm hmm.
That's what I appreciate aboutwhat Bucknell has taught me through
the project courses because thatquote you read was from my, that
Engineering 100 first course.
And I remember doing thatlike three years ago and.
(28:53):
So they didn't wait till you, they didn'tsay you must earn three years of credit.
Now you get to ask the question.
No.
Like right your own project.
Yes.
So I remember like trying to figure outhaving that experience was important
to be able to see what is valuablebecause we had all of this data.
We had our system working.
(29:13):
But what is valuable to show?
We have dates.
We have times.
Um, so Looking through and being able topinpoint what do we think is best to show
and how do we show it was so valuableand then that carries on for the next
few years in the design tract as in, Idon't, if you saw my EKG 201 portfolio
(29:35):
that was designing, like we made, um,the DAMS project, it is a acronym for
a machine that we build in sophomoredesign where we have to choose a, a, um,
Value choose a problem for it to solve.
So I made a color, a reader whereyou can read the color of things
and it has like an educational gamecomponent and with senior design.
(29:57):
Now, all of those questions, openended questions that our professors
and curriculum have led us to thoseaccumulate in our senior design project
where we're getting direction from aclient, but it's also up to us to pinpoint
the things that our client may not haveconsidered and ask those questions.
(30:17):
And even if the client proposessomething, we should counteract that
and really consider it in relationto the whole project to see if it's
really good for the whole project.
So being able to question and reallychoose what is valuable and what
matters is something that Bucknellhas really, prac ha has allowed me to
practice throughout our projects here.
(30:37):
And I too, that's why I love the, theprogram at Bucknell so much as well,
because it's, it is these abilitiesthat to me is what's going to, um, to
create a world where, you know, we'redoing it not purely based on whether I
can get a job or whether I'm going toget those perks or this, you know, you
(30:59):
know, the, the, whatever the, whateverthe, the, the salary might be and so on.
It, it, there is a. Uh,uh, multiple drives.
I'm, I've, those are all thingsthat you should consider, right?
I'm sure you're thinkingyou're senior now.
I don't know what your plans are yet,which we can talk about later, but
you know that you, you should thinkabout those things, obviously, right?
But you also, I, I, I just havethis feeling that you're also
(31:23):
not going to just blindly go intoa job just because you're paid.
Um, and, and I feel like that, by the way,When I was, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm much older,
I'm sort of the last generation, right?
Um, my, I would say that, you know,my parents probably just, the,
(31:44):
the most important thing is justto get a job, get a good job, get
a job that pays well, hopefully.
Um, none of them, I would say, everexpected it to be, you know, to consider
a different dimension of success,like, do you make something that's
meaningful, that brings you fulfillmentand joy and all that stuff, right?
(32:06):
Because for, for them, it's alot more about, you know, if you
can make it up money, then you'llfind the joy later, you know?
Yes, very different definitions ofsuccess from generation to generation.
Yes.
Yeah.
And I, so, so I, I, I think that that'ssomething that, um, it's easy to get lost
(32:26):
in because we, we, we just have a cultureof not putting a lot of emphasis on
that, being able to question things and,and being valued and then being, being
able to like get rewarded for that, youknow, like if I were to give it, Okay.
Like, I, I, when I taught, I nevergave exams, but if I were to give
(32:47):
exams, you know, half of it wouldhave been about asking questions.
Just ask any questions, you know,um, and, uh, and, and, and, but we
don't do that because it's not thenorm and it feels like getting to the
answer is the more important part.
Um, I actually thinkthat, you know, like we.
People always talk about getting leadersand developing leadership skills.
(33:12):
Leaders that can't ask questions.
I don't know how they can lead, youknow, like, like you can only lead
like in those cases, I feel like,okay, let's say you somehow get the
leadership skill, meaning you got peopleto, to do what you want them to do,
except that you don't know what to do.
So where are you leading them to?
Is it up, down, left or right?
(33:34):
Right.
And a good leader is always justthinking of multiple dimensions too.
It's not just what to do, it'swhat you have done in the past.
It's how can you improve.
So it's always asking questions, makingsure you're in line with the team.
And sometimes also just being able to, tolisten to other people's questions too...
'cause sometimes I'm, um, a projectmanager on my senior design team
(33:55):
and that involves like servantleadership, as they call it.
So you're like listening to whatthe people on your team have to say.
And how do you form that and like buildon that and ask questions like, okay,
you told me you need this by this date.
How can I help you?
How can I do this for you?
Things like that.
So that is very importantskill as a leader.
(34:16):
I agree.
Yes.
Yeah.
Amazing.
So I. I, I feel like if I don't tellyou this now, you'd think that, you
know, like, why did I hide it from you?
I should share with you that I actuallywent to an art and design school as well.
So when you talked about yourdesign process and I, when I read
about all them, oh, this is lovely.
You talked about the wholeiterative process, but I think
(34:38):
that this is what new generationsof students are all going to be.
I think they're all going to, um, amassmultidisciplinary thinking processes.
So you've acquired a lot of thisengineering and then like you just
talked about project management andthen you talked about art and design.
(34:59):
You know, you talk about working with,you know, clients and, you know, having to
push back on their, their, their demandsand, you know, these and then engineering
itself, you know, all of these.
different disciplines brings about,I believe they bring about sometimes
(35:20):
slightly different ways of lookingat the world and different ways.
And I think Liberal Arts actually isthe one that really tries to bring
together a lot of these different waysof thinking, you know, whether it be
through the lens of religion, whetherit's through the lens of, you know, social
work, uh, whether the lens of law andsociety, right, history, but it could
(35:42):
also be about Microbiology, you know.
Um, And, and the different ways ofthinking about the world allows, I
really believe that it allows us to justhave many more tools on our tool belt
to be able to ask and answer questions.
But if we don't develop those.
(36:04):
You become fairly limited inhow you can do that, right?
And some of it comes sort of comeslike by default, like in your case,
your parents having had this experienceof having to gather water is.
Is something that came bydefault for you through their
hard work, by the way, right?
(36:25):
But it came default for you and youcan use it, which is fantastic, right?
So this, I think this is reallywhere I know that right this minute.
Like, people are attacking DI and there'sall kinds of issues around that right now.
But I really think that just the diversethinking from all the different fields
(36:49):
and disciplines and studies and worldexperience, like lived experiences, is
what will make you a better contributorto society, because those are the
things you can draw upon, whereas ifyou don't have that, you can't, if you
didn't take that design or, you know,that design engineering course that,
(37:10):
you know, in your senior year in highschool, you wouldn't have been able
to draw from that to know what to donext, you know, and And, and that to
me is, is going to be really critical.
I, I saw in one of your, um, internships,actually, I think in two, maybe not
just one, that you had worked on someareas where, um, there was one, I think
(37:32):
it was in a cybersecurity company andanother in, um, I think it was like web
development or something, but it, yes, it.
At least one of them had something to dowith AI, I think, the cyber security one.
There's the second one, um, itwas a Machine Learning Internship
at Flowcode in New York.
Yes.
Right.
(37:52):
So.
Given, you know, where that's going,I think that's an interesting one
to maybe spend a little time on.
What are your thoughts on AI andwhat that means for you as, first
of all, as a student, but also asa student who's about to graduate?
I'm assuming you're aboutto graduate this summer?
(38:13):
Yes, this spring.
Um, this spring?
At the end of the spring semester?
By the way, before we dealwith that, what's your plan?
What are you doing after?
So, I am currently jobhunting and networking.
Uh, because of my interest inboth tech and art, I'm looking
for a position to work in.
My first choice would be somethingin VR, XR, so Virtual Reality, and
(38:35):
Augmented Reality, because I have thoseskills and it's, I feel like I have
a niche combination of both tech andart, so something with VR development,
so some options would be, um, creatingsimulations or game design, uh, Another
option I've been looking into isweb design, web development, because
again, that combination of coding anddesign, um, maybe software engineering.
(39:00):
So I've just been connecting andreaching out to alumni and professors.
So if you have an opportunity that, uh,lies around at the intersection of art
and STEM, I would love to hear about it.
So for anyone listening, um, if you,your neighbors, your friends, anyone,
you know, is looking for, I think that bynow, if you listen in, I think it's like
(39:25):
40 minutes or so, um, you probably havegotten a really good feeling about Clea
and the type of people that, the typeof person she is, but also, you know,
how, you know, today, I think being Apure engineer is simply not good enough.
It's an engineer with heart, withempathy, with the ability to reflect,
(39:50):
the ability to bring, bring herhistory and her lived experience
and even her culture and everythingto it is what's going to make her.
I believe, you know, an ideal, reallystrong candidate for any of those
jobs that are related in those areas.
So if anyone's listening, we'll put your,uh, um, information into, into the show
(40:10):
notes, um, you know, contact her because,um, She'll, she'll get, I, I, I think
that you're going to get snatched up andyou will have lots of offers and, um,
yeah, I don't think you should worry.
I hope so.
You, I, I think that you'll, you'll,you'll, you'll be, you'll be a
great find for lots of people.
Thank you.
Hopefully you're not too late.
(40:31):
Those who are listening and going, oh, Ibetter con connect with her and we'll put
your LinkedIn profile and your portfoliohas a LinkedIn link there as as well.
And your art, you know, link and all that.
Ra we'll, we'll listen.
Yes.
It's linked Everything.
Yep.
Here's a preview of what's coming upnext In part two of my conversation
with Clea Ramos, a student studyingcomputer engineering and studio
(40:51):
arts at Bucknell University.
I still have hope, you know, because,because I'm, I feel like what you were
saying, it's not enough to be just anengineer, you need to have all of those
skills and that interdisciplinary, whichI think AI could never replace all of
those, like, human aspects that makesa person a person because what, how you
provide value in your work are, likeyou said, your past experience and your
(41:14):
identity, how all of those aspects ofyour identity and what you've been through
affect how you do your current work.
Which, AI could never havethat, like, history built in.
Welcome to DigicationScholars Conversations.
I'm your host, Jeff Yan.
In this episode, you will hear part oneof my conversation with Clea Ramos, a
student studying Computer Engineeringand Studio Arts at Bucknell University.
More links and information about today'sconversation can be found on Digication's
Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.
(00:21):
Full episodes of Digication ScholarsConversations can be found on
YouTube or your favorite podcast app.
Welcome to DigicationScholars Conversations.
I'm your host, Jeff Yan.
My guest today is Clea Ramos, a studentstudying computer engineering and
studio art at Bucknell University.
Hello, Clea.
(00:42):
Hello.
It's nice to meet you.
Thank you for having me.
I am so happy that you're here.
Um, I have been, uh, working with andcollaborating with your, one of your
professors, uh, Rebecca Thomas, who isactually also a, um, prior Digication
Scholars Conversations guests.
Um, and we often talk about you know,the, the, the kind of, um, pedagogical,
(01:06):
uh, approach that she has, you know,for her students and then some, and,
and which we both admire, but then,you know, sometimes you talk about
who are some of your students that aredoing really great work and she had, I
feel very grateful that she had sharedthree portfolios that you have created.
Um, I, I saw them.
I. You know, I, I read them and, uh,I was so inspired and I said, Hey,
(01:33):
um, Rebecca, would you mind if, can wehave her on the Digication Scholars?
And that's how this came to be.
And thank you for, you know,making yourself available.
So you are a senior.
Yes.
Um, so are you majoring both incomputer engineering and studio arts?
I am majoring in computer engineeringand because I've always taken art in
(01:57):
elementary school and high school, Iwanted to pursue arts, especially at a
Liberal Arts Institution at Bucknell.
I was able to take, uh, five artclasses, so I'm minoring in studio art,
mostly focusing on the digital arts.
That's awesome.
So tell me a little bit about yourself.
I. I, I want to say that you,um, you, you have a connection
(02:17):
with, you, are you a Filipino?
Maybe you have familiesfrom the Philippines.
Is that correct?
Yeah.
So my parents are immigrants, um,and I'm a first generation student.
So I grew up in Stanford,Connecticut and went to school there.
And um, I'm now at Bucknell University.
So I, uh, really pride myself on beingFilipino and even at Bucknell, I'm a part
(02:38):
of the Filipino student association here.
And so you're, you're parents areimmigrants, you're a first gen, you
know, U. S., you know, you grew up,you, you said you were born here?
Yes, I was born here.
And, um, what was thatexperience like for you?
Yeah, so, uh, elementary school, I have anolder brother, we went to a small private
(02:58):
school called Waterside School and itwas a school that prioritized minorities.
So I grew up in a really tight knitcommunity where everyone knew each
other and that school, um, helpedminority and people of culture go
into a really good private schoolsfor middle school and high school.
So then I went on to GreenwichAcademy and my brother went on
to its brother school, Brunswick.
(03:19):
So we both grew up goingto that environment.
And there I was able tolearn more about, um.
Engineering and art and where I foundmy passions there and then since then,
from my high school to Bucknell, um,because those, my high school and
Bucknell are predominantly white, Ireally wanted to stay in touch with
(03:40):
the cultural side because I grew upwith that in my elementary school.
So me and a few friends at Bucknellcame together and we saw Asian
galas happening, all of these eventshappening with all their culturals
and we wanted to participate.
So we created, um, the Philippine studentassociation and we have, uh, bi-weekly
meetings where we help, um, advocate forFilipino culture and have fun events.
(04:05):
And we're participatingin an Asian gala soon.
That is awesome.
I am a huge, huge fan of Filipino foods.
Yes.
What is your favorite?
Chicken adobo.
Yes, I do love chicken adobo.
My favorite is sinigang.
It's a sour soup.
Yes, I know that.
Yeah, I love it.
Yeah.
That's awesome.
(04:25):
I myself from, um, grew up inHong Kong and then I moved here.
So like this, I am the first gen,you know, immigrants in my family,
first gen college attendee as well.
So I really love that you are takingthat culture, um, that you are so
proud of and making something of it.
(04:46):
I think that's, that'sreally, that's really amazing.
I would say that one of the thingsthat I was so drawn by your work
and your portfolio is, is thatyou do a lot of reflections.
The portfolios I saw.
Um, I know that you, you have thoseportfolios and then you have another
portfolio that linked to a notion site.
(05:08):
Um, that is your art portfolio as well.
Um, it's amazing to see all of thesedifferent, you know, linkages, you know,
everywhere, um, one of the things thatI was, you know, after seeing all three
of your portfolios, I really flickedthrough every page, by the way, um, I
read, I read all of it and, um, what'sreally the consistent sense of, you know,
(05:32):
what you do to reflect on your learning.
I remember so vividly that.
In one of your projects, itwas about provide a way to, to
monitor the health of water.
Um, right.
And in some of your finding atthe end, you go, well, you know,
like we have some limitations in.
(05:55):
The hardware that we have availableto us and, and the technology and
so on, but you were able to, you,you learned quite a bit from it.
Um, but those things that you learn thatI thought were the most interesting were
things like iterative design process.
Um, how you communicate,um, how are you as a leader?
(06:16):
How do you do time management?
How do you think about collaboration?
And yes, you also have theexperience of dealing, you know,
learning the technical skills of.
Working with the limitations ofthe, the, the technology that you
had available to you at the time.
But those are the kinds of things likethe microcontroller system, you know?
(06:36):
Yeah.
But those are the kinds of things that,um, in many ways, that's the thing that is
going to continue to change very quickly.
In fact, I bet you that if you were doingthe project this, this spring again.
It's already different, right?
Because there will be abetter microcontroller.
There will be a better circuit board.
There will be a better set oftechnologies available to you, right?
(06:59):
And maybe the conditionwould have changed.
You would work withdifferent people, right?
But it's all of those skills that isabout, um, you know, your own learning
process that feels like is, Is one that isconstantly built one after on top of the
other, like that to me is what I got outof, like, after reading these portfolios.
(07:24):
What do you think about that?
Yes.
So I remember coming in my freshman year,spring semester, when I had my first
ECEG - Electrical and Computer Engineeringcourse with Professor Rebecca Thomas.
And throughout that whole semester, wewere tasked to create a, uh, ePortfolios.
I think that was probablythe first year it launched at
(07:46):
Bucknell, so we were all new to it.
So we were wondering, oh,what do we put on here?
We're not too familiar how itworks, but we worked on it since
the beginning of the semester andbuilt on it, um, every few weeks.
And it corresponded to writing downwhat we wanted to do as a career
and finding someone to interviewon a career we're interested in.
And through that process, like,Um, looking at, uh, research
(08:09):
videos, research articles andreflecting on what we want to do.
And I think that was the firsttime I've reflected like that
in an engineering context.
So from there, that was thefirst ePortfolio I've done.
And at the end I had a record of, um, howI thought about my careers and my interest
and how that applied to what I value.
(08:32):
So I valued doing something creative.
I value being able to doboth technical and art.
And that reflection process is somethingthat you typically don't get in
other STEM classes, such as math ormore technical engineering classes.
So I find it a very valuable skill,especially as I moved on to higher level
engineering classes where you're stilldoing technical work, but sometimes it's
(08:55):
too technical to the point where youdon't realize the bigger context of it and
how it fits in with real world problems.
So, the ePortfolio that you werementioning in that project, the
water monitoring system was formy junior design, um, electrical
engineering and computerengineering course, uh, last spring.
So, the problem are.
(09:16):
Professors gave for us was to chooseone of the U. N. Sustainability goals
to create a potential solution for andour class chose the problem of providing
clean water and sanitation to all.
So the first half of the course wasn'tactually making a technical solution.
The first part is reflecting on thebigger problem and the context as a
(09:38):
whole, identifying the stakeholders,the people involved, um, any
electrical, um, processes involved.
So that course, that part of the course,um, was really valuable to see how.
You can reflect and not onlyfocus on the technical, but
that real, real world aspect.
And still today, I feel like I havea more, um, holistic view of how to
(10:02):
approach problems because of thatreflection process in engineering
and that I, I see, I asked my otherfriends and other majors like mechanical
engineering or chemical engineering.
They don't really have as much ofa, um, design track or a reflection
process as ECEG does, uh, ECEG beingElectrical and Computer Engineering.
So I'm grateful how, for how much I'vebeen able to reflect and show that in
(10:27):
my ePortfolios because I can always lookback and not only see that technical
progress, but also that reflectingprocess of where did I get stuck?
How did I improve?
And then what really matters ishow do I improve in the future too?
And what do I make of this?
What do I take from it going forward?
I was thinking about, I saw, I, one ofthe things that I read that it was so
(10:48):
interesting because I heard the samestories as well, which was, I think
you were saying something about, youknow, your parents had told me of their
process of fetching water, you know,from wells and having to walk and, you
know, like they basically have to walk.
You know, through like, it's terribleis through hills and, and, and,
(11:11):
and, and bad weather conditions andwhatnot, just to get water so that
you can bring back fetch water.
And my, my parents were, oh, my,my dad, his family, his family
were refugees from, from China.
During world war two and, um, they,they didn't have that water fetching
(11:35):
thing because they were livingin Hong Kong, which is, you know,
sort of a pretty dense city, butoftentimes they will run out of water.
And so everyone has to goget in line to get water.
And I remember him.
Telling me that, you know, like,sometimes they don't even have the
instruments to carry the water.
So they just take plastic, like grocerybags, like plastic bags, just take water.
(12:00):
And sometimes they break after you getin line for hours and then get to it.
And then you're like, hopefullythe plastic bag hold up and
then they can bring it home.
And, and to be honest, once youget home, what do you do with it?
You know, hold on to it.
A collapsible plasticbag, you know what I mean?
So I'm like hearing these stories and,and I could, I remember reading that
(12:22):
part and I'm thinking, you know, thereis something that you can take that
experience that is so, even though youdidn't, it came from your culture, it
came from, you know, like stories thatyou were able to get from your parents.
Uh, it probably means something alittle bit different to you than to,
To others, you know, and it creates adifferent set of meaning to, to the work.
(12:45):
And I, I think that these are the typesof things that create sort of a sense
of like purpose that drives the projectthat drives it differently from then.
If your professor just gave you,here's the problem, go solve it.
Yes.
You, you made this connectionthat goes, man, like.
(13:10):
Like, it's not just a problem to solve,but it's so critical because I can't
imagine going through life withoutthat, without access to water and that
the alternative is to do that, like,that's not a good way to live, right?
Um, so it changes the way thatyou approach it, doesn't it?
It creates more value because, becauseyou reflect on why this matters.
(13:34):
You're not doing it just fora class, just to get a grade.
You're doing it for the people who arein need, the people who don't have access
to this technology, to this clean water.
And that's why it's so importantin the beginning to reflect on
who are the stakeholders and whodoes this project affect, because.
That is where you get thatvalue for the project.
(13:56):
And sometime, one thing we did thinkabout was that our system required wifi
because we wanted to push it to ThingSpeakor, um, an online service where you can
read the data of how clean your water is.
And we were also wondering, Oh, wewanted to place these devices in, um
developing countries or people like,yeah, just developing countries.
(14:20):
So we were wondering, Oh, do all ofthose places have access to wifi?
So it's also being considerate of therealistic resources that are available.
So we weren't able to interviewanyone from the places that we
wanted to, potentially, per theproject, but that's also important
getting real world, um, resources andhaving that connection to who you're
(14:43):
actually creating the product for.
And I, I think that there issomething maybe even, I want to go
like a little bit more meta on this.
Um, I feel like that, you know, youhave learned in that particular, oh, we
can pick this particular case, right?
(15:04):
Like you, you have this water projectanyway, and then you were able to, to,
to give it more purpose by empatheticallyplacing yourself in people's shoes,
because these are your parents.
Literal shoes and how they, that hadto walk through, you know, you know,
like, you know, the streets and the,you know, difficult conditions to
(15:27):
even just to get access to water.
That's how it would, what it wouldbe like if you don't have this.
Right.
So I think that this idea that, um,yeah, finding purpose and drive to it is,
is, is important, you know, but I alsowould point out one more thing, which.
I, I'm very interested in how studentsare finding new paths as they create their
(15:51):
neural pathways and how they think aboutthe world and make sense of the world.
So in your case, there is also anabstracted path that sets If I come
across a new problem or a new thingthat I want to solve in life or a new
(16:12):
way to think about the world, I canlook into real world situation, people
I know, people, you know, um, thingsthat I've experienced and use that
as a way to inform how I might drive,how to answer that question, right?
(16:32):
So it's one layer more abstractedthan just saying, Oh, I know in
terms of water, this is the answer.
And I get that.
And I think everyone who'd belistening would be like, Oh, wow.
Yeah.
Like some listenersmay identify with that.
Some would go this firsttime I ever heard of it.
As far as I know in the whole world, youturn on the tab and there comes water.
(16:52):
Right.
Um, and then there are people, by theway, that has taken that for granted
and didn't realize it in this city.
Right?
If you think about Flintin Michigan, right?
Yeah, we did that, butthe water wasn't safe.
Right?
So everyone has different stories andthey can, you can take that, but it's the
idea that you are, you have now created anew path that says, I'm going to be able
(17:15):
to take other experiences that I've hadand then make these kinds of connections.
So to me, that is one layer, a moresophisticated Like two layers, more
sophisticated than just someone said,here's a project, solve it, right?
Here's a bunch of water, find away to wirelessly, I don't know,
(17:38):
detect is contaminant or, youknow, whether it's safe to drink.
And I think it's also trying to putyourself in the shoes of the people who
are going through this problem becauselike The empathy and the relationship.
Yeah, right.
Yeah.
Because one of the things that I thinkwe can all work on here at Bucknell and,
(17:58):
and under engineering projects is thatempathy and just being considerate of
who we're making these projects for andhow are we designing for, for them, not
just so it works and it's functional, butto prioritize, um, the value it creates.
That's something that I really admireabout Bucknell, being It has a very
(18:20):
strong engineering program and you'revery brilliant professors who've, you
know, who are very accomplished, but atthe same time, there is a, a very, um,
equally strong liberal arts, um, focus.
(18:40):
I want to talk a little bit about that.
Like I, I'd imagine that you have thechoice and also probably the ability,
you know, to go to schools that aremore purely engineering focused, more
technical, um, maybe less like, sothe liberal arts, you know, sort of,
(19:02):
uh, influenced, um, institutions.
Why did you choose a place where Theliberal art, you can't, you couldn't
just say, I'm going to ignore that.
I'm just going to do the engineering part.
Right.
Um, why did you choose that?
Yes, so when I was applying forcolleges, um, my senior year, one
(19:25):
class that I took that I was reallyinspired by was my engineering
and design course in high school.
So that course was 'an intro toengineering' where we learned, uh, to
learn fabrication techniques such aslaser cutting, 3D printing, working with
perf boards, bread boards, soldering.
But in addition to all of thosetechnical components, we have
(19:45):
different projects for those.
We also got to do and incorporate artisticstyle to each one of those projects.
So one of the projects was a synthesizeror kind of a musically electronic device
that would play music when you turnit on, rotate the volume and sound.
And we got to it.
Decorate the enclosure of it.
So I had a really fun time usingAdobe Photoshop and illustrator to
(20:09):
create those, um, that enclosure.
So not only was it artistic, itwas also technical in that sense.
And because I love that class somuch, my teachers and my advisor were
pushing me to go into engineering.
So one of the reasons I chose Bucknellwas for its engineering program.
And also as I was searching, I sawBucknell had a lot of opportunities
(20:29):
for the arts, even though it is small.
I did.
I wasn't sure if I wantedto pursue arts in college.
I just knew I wanted to do a computerengineering, or I actually came in
as a computer science major becauseI really enjoyed that problem solving
aspect of code and I knew Bucknellhad strong engineering program,
but I came in as computer science.
Um, I wasn't sure if I wanted to do artbecause I was intimidated by the process
(20:52):
of getting graded by art because sometimeswhen I'm graded at doesn't feel like
uniquely me and I can do whatever I want,I'm doing it for someone else for a grade.
So I wasn't sure if I wanted to doart, but when I came in to Bucknell,
I saw that they had a Res. CollegeProgram, Residential Colleges.
So you can take a class with the peoplein your hall for your first semester
(21:13):
and get to know that community.
So I joined the Arts Res College andI got to know those people really
well and they're still friends.
I'm still really great friendswith them to this day, like a whole
floor of us are still friends.
So that community and the size alsomade Bucknell very appealing because
everyone knows everyone and youhave such unique connection to those
(21:34):
people because I also grew up insmall environments, small schools.
And I also joined, um, apre-orientation program with arts folks.
So having that arts was reallyimportant to me and I knew at
Bucknell I could achieve both of them.
So after learning more about theengineering program, I switched
from computer science, which is moresoftware based, to computer engineering,
(21:57):
which is a combination of hardwareand software, because my engineering
and design course in high school wasmore, um, electrical component based.
So I knew I wanted todo hands on components.
So that's where the microcontrollersand the sensors come in.
So that's why I came in asthen computer engineering.
And then I started, um, pursuinga studio art degree or studio
(22:21):
art minor in my sophomore year.
And since then I've found a reallygreat way to combine my design skills
because I've learned design in anengineering context and design in
an art context and graphic design.
And I find it really interesting theways that you talk with your clients.
You talk with people that you needto interview for your project,
(22:43):
and then you keep iterating anditerating and going back, fixing
anything, any mistakes to improve it.
And you have this final project,but it's not, nothing is
ever really final in design.
You always keep iterating, you'reonly limited by time and resources.
So that's why I really love theconnection between engineering and
art because of that creation process.
(23:06):
And Bucknell allows me to do that.
So, I'm really glad that I wasable to pursue that and hopefully
take these skills to the nextopportunity after Bucknell.
I love all of this.
And I think that it's so great that you.
You know, through this, all of theseopportunities, I think that this idea of
you developing that sense of, you know,what kind of response, I think you wrote
(23:30):
somewhere, I want to be a responsibleengineer or something like that.
So I'm going to do that effect, um, is.
Is, is so clear that it comes fromthis kind of grounding, you know,
I, I will say that, uh, in the, inthe 2010s, I lived in Silicon Valley
for about 10 years and, and I willhonestly say that I met some really
(23:55):
brilliant engineers, especially softwareengineers and, um, many of them with
advanced degrees and, and, you know,like feel like that they are certified
geniuses, you know, um, but, but they.
They are so well regarded by thebig, you know, seven companies that
(24:20):
rules the, you know, the world oftech, um, that, you know, they get
paid so much money, they get, theyget so many perks, um, that it was.
You know, that, that drive or thatdrive of, I want to be doing something
responsible or helping people and all ofthat sort of goes into the back burners.
(24:46):
And I, I really do think that there is aresponsibility for education institutions
to make sure that that aspect ofteaching does not get put into the back
burners or that you do it by having one.
(25:07):
Ethics course and, and call it done.
Um, you know, um, I, I, I think thatit's extremely dangerous otherwise,
because then now we have extremelysmart people yielding a huge amount of
power and a huge amount of influence.
Don't know what to do, right?
(25:28):
They, they don't, they haven't.
And I think I saw in one ofyour, um, actually I copied it
because I thought it was so cool.
You had said it was youdescribed in a reflection.
I'm going to read it out becauseI, I thought it was really cool.
Let me find it.
It says, Throughout Project 2, I learnedto develop creative thinking skills,
(25:49):
which was much different from Project1, as we had a set, clear objective.
But in Project 2, we had to come up withour own questions and exploration paths.
We had to discover ways tosolve our own questions.
So, that to me is a really, it'sreally, it's, it's something that
many, actually many schools don't do.
(26:09):
They don't let people do itbecause, because they just,
they have too many objectives.
They want to make suretheir students get there.
And if you were to ask your own questions,you may not do their objectives, right?
And so.
Just for the sake of, you know, beingefficient and make sure that they're
covering all of the checkboxes ofthings that they want you to cover.
(26:31):
They, they, they, uh, little bit thinking,well, you know, it's better that I
give you the problems, you solve it.
And then we know that you can solvethe problem, but you don't get to
ask the questions, like you said,if you are always going to be very
good at solving problems, so I've,I've met a lot of people who.
are brilliant at solving problems.
In fact, you, you mention anything andthey're like, I will solve it for you.
(26:56):
Whether you want them tosolve it for you or not.
Um, but if you ask them, youknow, what do you want to do, um,
they have a very difficult time.
Because it's almost like, They werenever given a choice and to give any
experience to, to be good at that.
And I find that being able to askquestions is, um, it should be
(27:21):
pretty much, you know, as importantas being able to answer them.
Yes.
But if we focus so much on being ableto answer the questions and we're
not allowed to ask, like be the oneasking the questions, it's difficult.
And I think that, you know,Education, if we look through
even our, it sounds like you had awonderful K 12, you know, experience.
(27:44):
But if we look at most curriculumin general, at least traditional
curriculum, um, at least I can saythat because yours may not be, have
been that way, is that students arerarely rewarded for asking questions.
Actually, there are Um, very oftenrewarded for answering questions.
In fact, that's what an exam looks like.
(28:05):
It's a bunch of questions.
Yes.
Um, it's not a bunch of, it's not abunch of questions you get to ask.
It's a bunch of questionsthat you have to answer.
And there is a sort of aright answer typically.
Right.
And so it really reflects on howlittle our education system or
(28:28):
maybe even our society valuesthe ability to ask questions.
Yes.
Because we test you on your abilityto answer them, but we never test
you on your ability to ask them.
Mm hmm.
That's what I appreciate aboutwhat Bucknell has taught me through
the project courses because thatquote you read was from my, that
Engineering 100 first course.
And I remember doing thatlike three years ago and.
(28:53):
So they didn't wait till you, they didn'tsay you must earn three years of credit.
Now you get to ask the question.
No.
Like right your own project.
Yes.
So I remember like trying to figure outhaving that experience was important
to be able to see what is valuablebecause we had all of this data.
We had our system working.
(29:13):
But what is valuable to show?
We have dates.
We have times.
Um, so Looking through and being able topinpoint what do we think is best to show
and how do we show it was so valuableand then that carries on for the next
few years in the design tract as in, Idon't, if you saw my EKG 201 portfolio
(29:35):
that was designing, like we made, um,the DAMS project, it is a acronym for
a machine that we build in sophomoredesign where we have to choose a, a, um,
Value choose a problem for it to solve.
So I made a color, a reader whereyou can read the color of things
and it has like an educational gamecomponent and with senior design.
(29:57):
Now, all of those questions, openended questions that our professors
and curriculum have led us to thoseaccumulate in our senior design project
where we're getting direction from aclient, but it's also up to us to pinpoint
the things that our client may not haveconsidered and ask those questions.
(30:17):
And even if the client proposessomething, we should counteract that
and really consider it in relationto the whole project to see if it's
really good for the whole project.
So being able to question and reallychoose what is valuable and what
matters is something that Bucknellhas really, prac ha has allowed me to
practice throughout our projects here.
(30:37):
And I too, that's why I love the, theprogram at Bucknell so much as well,
because it's, it is these abilitiesthat to me is what's going to, um, to
create a world where, you know, we'redoing it not purely based on whether I
can get a job or whether I'm going toget those perks or this, you know, you
(30:59):
know, the, the, whatever the, whateverthe, the, the salary might be and so on.
It, it, there is a. Uh,uh, multiple drives.
I'm, I've, those are all thingsthat you should consider, right?
I'm sure you're thinkingyou're senior now.
I don't know what your plans are yet,which we can talk about later, but
you know that you, you should thinkabout those things, obviously, right?
But you also, I, I, I just havethis feeling that you're also
(31:23):
not going to just blindly go intoa job just because you're paid.
Um, and, and I feel like that, by the way,When I was, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm much older,
I'm sort of the last generation, right?
Um, my, I would say that, you know,my parents probably just, the,
(31:44):
the most important thing is justto get a job, get a good job, get
a job that pays well, hopefully.
Um, none of them, I would say, everexpected it to be, you know, to consider
a different dimension of success,like, do you make something that's
meaningful, that brings you fulfillmentand joy and all that stuff, right?
(32:06):
Because for, for them, it's alot more about, you know, if you
can make it up money, then you'llfind the joy later, you know?
Yes, very different definitions ofsuccess from generation to generation.
Yes.
Yeah.
And I, so, so I, I, I think that that'ssomething that, um, it's easy to get lost
(32:26):
in because we, we, we just have a cultureof not putting a lot of emphasis on
that, being able to question things and,and being valued and then being, being
able to like get rewarded for that, youknow, like if I were to give it, Okay.
Like, I, I, when I taught, I nevergave exams, but if I were to give
(32:47):
exams, you know, half of it wouldhave been about asking questions.
Just ask any questions, you know,um, and, uh, and, and, and, but we
don't do that because it's not thenorm and it feels like getting to the
answer is the more important part.
Um, I actually thinkthat, you know, like we.
People always talk about getting leadersand developing leadership skills.
(33:12):
Leaders that can't ask questions.
I don't know how they can lead, youknow, like, like you can only lead
like in those cases, I feel like,okay, let's say you somehow get the
leadership skill, meaning you got peopleto, to do what you want them to do,
except that you don't know what to do.
So where are you leading them to?
Is it up, down, left or right?
(33:34):
Right.
And a good leader is always justthinking of multiple dimensions too.
It's not just what to do, it'swhat you have done in the past.
It's how can you improve.
So it's always asking questions, makingsure you're in line with the team.
And sometimes also just being able to, tolisten to other people's questions too...
'cause sometimes I'm, um, a projectmanager on my senior design team
(33:55):
and that involves like servantleadership, as they call it.
So you're like listening to whatthe people on your team have to say.
And how do you form that and like buildon that and ask questions like, okay,
you told me you need this by this date.
How can I help you?
How can I do this for you?
Things like that.
So that is very importantskill as a leader.
(34:16):
I agree.
Yes.
Yeah.
Amazing.
So I. I, I feel like if I don't tellyou this now, you'd think that, you
know, like, why did I hide it from you?
I should share with you that I actuallywent to an art and design school as well.
So when you talked about yourdesign process and I, when I read
about all them, oh, this is lovely.
You talked about the wholeiterative process, but I think
(34:38):
that this is what new generationsof students are all going to be.
I think they're all going to, um, amassmultidisciplinary thinking processes.
So you've acquired a lot of thisengineering and then like you just
talked about project management andthen you talked about art and design.
(34:59):
You know, you talk about working with,you know, clients and, you know, having to
push back on their, their, their demandsand, you know, these and then engineering
itself, you know, all of these.
different disciplines brings about,I believe they bring about sometimes
(35:20):
slightly different ways of lookingat the world and different ways.
And I think Liberal Arts actually isthe one that really tries to bring
together a lot of these different waysof thinking, you know, whether it be
through the lens of religion, whetherit's through the lens of, you know, social
work, uh, whether the lens of law andsociety, right, history, but it could
(35:42):
also be about Microbiology, you know.
Um, And, and the different ways ofthinking about the world allows, I
really believe that it allows us to justhave many more tools on our tool belt
to be able to ask and answer questions.
But if we don't develop those.
(36:04):
You become fairly limited inhow you can do that, right?
And some of it comes sort of comeslike by default, like in your case,
your parents having had this experienceof having to gather water is.
Is something that came bydefault for you through their
hard work, by the way, right?
(36:25):
But it came default for you and youcan use it, which is fantastic, right?
So this, I think this is reallywhere I know that right this minute.
Like, people are attacking DI and there'sall kinds of issues around that right now.
But I really think that just the diversethinking from all the different fields
(36:49):
and disciplines and studies and worldexperience, like lived experiences, is
what will make you a better contributorto society, because those are the
things you can draw upon, whereas ifyou don't have that, you can't, if you
didn't take that design or, you know,that design engineering course that,
(37:10):
you know, in your senior year in highschool, you wouldn't have been able
to draw from that to know what to donext, you know, and And, and that to
me is, is going to be really critical.
I, I saw in one of your, um, internships,actually, I think in two, maybe not
just one, that you had worked on someareas where, um, there was one, I think
(37:32):
it was in a cybersecurity company andanother in, um, I think it was like web
development or something, but it, yes, it.
At least one of them had something to dowith AI, I think, the cyber security one.
There's the second one, um, itwas a Machine Learning Internship
at Flowcode in New York.
Yes.
Right.
(37:52):
So.
Given, you know, where that's going,I think that's an interesting one
to maybe spend a little time on.
What are your thoughts on AI andwhat that means for you as, first
of all, as a student, but also asa student who's about to graduate?
I'm assuming you're aboutto graduate this summer?
(38:13):
Yes, this spring.
Um, this spring?
At the end of the spring semester?
By the way, before we dealwith that, what's your plan?
What are you doing after?
So, I am currently jobhunting and networking.
Uh, because of my interest inboth tech and art, I'm looking
for a position to work in.
My first choice would be somethingin VR, XR, so Virtual Reality, and
(38:35):
Augmented Reality, because I have thoseskills and it's, I feel like I have
a niche combination of both tech andart, so something with VR development,
so some options would be, um, creatingsimulations or game design, uh, Another
option I've been looking into isweb design, web development, because
again, that combination of coding anddesign, um, maybe software engineering.
(39:00):
So I've just been connecting andreaching out to alumni and professors.
So if you have an opportunity that, uh,lies around at the intersection of art
and STEM, I would love to hear about it.
So for anyone listening, um, if you,your neighbors, your friends, anyone,
you know, is looking for, I think that bynow, if you listen in, I think it's like
(39:25):
40 minutes or so, um, you probably havegotten a really good feeling about Clea
and the type of people that, the typeof person she is, but also, you know,
how, you know, today, I think being Apure engineer is simply not good enough.
It's an engineer with heart, withempathy, with the ability to reflect,
(39:50):
the ability to bring, bring herhistory and her lived experience
and even her culture and everythingto it is what's going to make her.
I believe, you know, an ideal, reallystrong candidate for any of those
jobs that are related in those areas.
So if anyone's listening, we'll put your,uh, um, information into, into the show
(40:10):
notes, um, you know, contact her because,um, She'll, she'll get, I, I, I think
that you're going to get snatched up andyou will have lots of offers and, um,
yeah, I don't think you should worry.
I hope so.
You, I, I think that you'll, you'll,you'll, you'll be, you'll be a
great find for lots of people.
Thank you.
Hopefully you're not too late.
(40:31):
Those who are listening and going, oh, Ibetter con connect with her and we'll put
your LinkedIn profile and your portfoliohas a LinkedIn link there as as well.
And your art, you know, link and all that.
Ra we'll, we'll listen.
Yes.
It's linked Everything.
Yep.
Here's a preview of what's coming upnext In part two of my conversation
with Clea Ramos, a student studyingcomputer engineering and studio
(40:51):
arts at Bucknell University.
I still have hope, you know, because,because I'm, I feel like what you were
saying, it's not enough to be just anengineer, you need to have all of those
skills and that interdisciplinary, whichI think AI could never replace all of
those, like, human aspects that makesa person a person because what, how you
provide value in your work are, likeyou said, your past experience and your
(41:14):
identity, how all of those aspects ofyour identity and what you've been through
affect how you do your current work.
Which, AI could never havethat, like, history built in.
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