October 1, 2025 • 23 mins
Brett Deister and Seth Goldstein are diving deep into the wild world of podcasting, and trust me, it’s a rollercoaster. Right off the bat, they tackle the nitty-gritty of what marketers really need to know about getting their brands onto the airwaves. Seth, a seasoned podcaster and digital marketer, spills the tea on how metrics are shifting from downloads to streams, and why that matters for anyone looking to sponsor a podcast. They banter about the importance of finding the right niche shows, because let’s be real, no one wants to throw cash at the next Joe Rogan when you could score a sweet spot on a smaller show that actually resonates with your target audience. With a sprinkle of humor and a heap of insight, they make it clear that getting into podcasting—whether as a creator or a sponsor—is still a golden opportunity, and definitely not too late to join the party!
Takeaways:
- Seth Goldstein has been in the podcasting game since 2010, making him a seasoned pro, and he views it as the second renaissance of the medium.
- The discussion around podcast sponsorship emphasizes the importance of finding niche audiences instead of chasing mainstream giants like Joe Rogan.
- Goldstein advises marketers to focus less on downloads and more on engagement metrics, like streaming, as the landscape of podcast consumption shifts.
- He also highlights the need for patience in podcast marketing, suggesting that businesses should commit to campaigns for at least three to six months for tangible results.
- The podcasting space is predicted to continue growing, with Goldstein asserting there's still plenty of room for new voices, so don’t stress about starting too late.
- Lastly, he emphasizes the value of word-of-mouth marketing, especially when participating as a guest on other shows, as this can drive significant audience growth.
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- Goldstein Media
- Tea Republic
- Republic of Tea
- Apple Podcast
- Pod Chaser
- Sirius
- Spotify
- YouTube
- Captivate
- 11 Labs
- Paleo Valley
Links referenced in this episode:
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Foreign.
That's good.
And welcome to a new episodeof Digital Coffee Marketing Brew.
And I'm your host, Brett Dice.
(00:20):
If you could please subscribeto this podcast on all your favorite
podcasting apps, leave a fivestar review.
Really just help with therankings and let me know how I am
doing.
But this week I'm gonna betalking with Seth Goldstein is an
entrepreneur, founder,podcaster, techie, father, husband,
and social media junkie.
He's been podcasting since2010, which is even before I kind
(00:43):
of started.
So he's been doing a lotlonger than I have.
And he's owned his own digitalmarketing company, Goldstein Media,
for more than 15 years.
Welcome to the show, Seth.
How's it going?
Brett, how you doing?
Thanks for having me.
Doing good.
When the first question is allmy guest is, are you a coffee or
tea drinker?
I like coffee.
It doesn't like me, so I haveto drink tea.
(01:03):
You have any like specificteas that you like?
Like anything with a lot of caffeine.
So it'd be more like green tea.
I think green tea has the most caffeine.
They're and they're not asponsor of anything for me, but they
Tea Republic, Republic of Teahas a high caffeinated, like more
than caffeine than coffee.
(01:25):
Black tea that I drink everyday wakes me up, gets me about halfway
through the day before I haveto have another cup.
But I do like coffee a lot.
It just irks my belly.
So we'll leave it at 2.
Too acidic?
Is that what it is?
I don't know what it is.
It just hurts my belly.
Gotcha.
Have you tried like cold brew?
Because cold brew is less.
(01:46):
I love cold brew.
It actually might help withthe stomach thing if it's acidity.
I'll try that out.
Yeah, I, I, I just tend, I, Ifound the tea that works.
Dive into that every once in a while.
I'll treat myself to a coffeeand then regret it later.
All right, I gave a brief someof your expertise.
Can you listen a little bitmore about what you do?
(02:07):
Yes, absolutely.
So, yes, I've been podcastingsince 2010, so I'm, I like to say
that's like the secondrenaissance of podcasting.
Second round of podcastersfirst were in their early aughts
like 2005-2010.
Adam Curry, Leo Laporte, allthose guys kind of got in there at
(02:27):
the start.
I kind of came in when itstarted to be easier to podcast.
Like there was Google hangoutson air that this recorded stuff and
video and all that stuff thatjust seemed to work, and I could
get my head around it.
So I started that.
I've actually been a DigitalMarketer since 2008.
The best time to start abusiness at the height of a global
recession.
(02:48):
But it's also, when you thinkabout it as an entrepreneur, no one's
going to hire you during aglobal recession, so you got to start
your own shingle.
And I've been doing that ever since.
That's been like 17 years.
And then about a year and ahalf ago, I decided, hey, I've been
helping people with podcastingfor a while.
Why don't I monetize that?
So I started Podcast Mastery,where I help podcasters kind of get
(03:11):
a handle on the wholecraziness that is this podcasting
Third renaissance, I like tocall it now.
Got you.
And so, yeah, you are correct.
Podcasting started.
Well, technically, it startedin 2005.
That was kind of the firsttime itunes really did something
with it.
But the first artist feed waslike, 2003 was like the first act.
(03:34):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I had to look up becauseI think I saw, like a job description
said, like, 20 plus or 25 plusyears of podcast experience.
And I'm like, nobody has thatbecause it hasn't been around that
long.
Yeah, I do think there has.
Yeah, I do think that.
That people were dabblingbefore, but Apple, of course, made
it popular, so go figure.
(03:54):
Speaking of podcasts, like,what should.
What should markers know about podcasting?
Because I feel like they.
They kind of understand it andit's getting more popular and I'm
getting.
Being a lot more requests, butI don't think they really understand,
like, like downloads, forexample, like, who they should sponsor
because they feel like that you.
They should have like, the JoeRogans and everything, and that's
(04:15):
like the 0.100001% of podcasts.
So what should they know aboutsponsorships and, like, getting guests
on and all that stuff?
It.
Finding guests isn't as hardas you would think.
You know, just ask.
And people love to talk aboutthemselves, so that's easy.
As far as downloads go, I feellike downloads are going away because
(04:35):
people don't download podcasts anymore.
They stream them.
So there's like, there's astreaming streams metric and there's
a download metric, and thedownload metric is kind of going
literally just kind ofevolutionarily going away because
no one technically downloadsthem anymore.
And when you think about it, Ithink marketers and business owners
(04:57):
who want to sponsor podcastsshould look at podcasts that are
in their ne.
In their niche, that are inthat talk about what they.
Who they want to get in frontof, where they're, you know, fish.
Where the fish are, essentially.
And you want to make sure thatyou find the podcast.
You're not going to find theJoe Rogan, Samuel Robbins, you know,
(05:19):
you can.
You're going to spend afreaking fortune on them.
And you're probably not gonnaget any hits on it.
If someone has like a hundredlisteners per their episode or 30
per episode by 100 per monthor whatever, and you get two deals
from it, or you get a bunch ofclicks from it, that's all matters.
I feel like metrics are lessimportant than results.
(05:44):
And so.
And I also think that you haveto give it more than a month.
You should commit to three tosix months on being in someone's
podcast.
And then if it doesn't work,all right, it didn't work.
You know, you tried it, youknow, no harm, no foul, but you can't
get results in a month.
Very rarely will you find, oh,unless you're a vitamin supplement
(06:04):
and Joe Rogan likes yourvitamin supplement, then you might
get a hit.
But like, if you're, let's say.
Let's say you're doing a localpodcast in, let's say, Bucks County,
Pennsylvania, which is where Ilive, and the, and the icp, the customer
profile of the.
Of the people who listen arelocal business owners or local homeowners
(06:25):
or whatever, there's ahandyman podcast, and you are a landscaper.
That's like a perfect spot totalk about what you do and have an
ad spot on it.
But then there's also biggerpodcasts that are a little bit more
ambiguous on what you should.
You should be where you should be.
(06:46):
But it can't hurt to try itand see if it works because podcasting
is only getting more and more popular.
Yeah, I mean, from thenumbers, it's.
The advertising is still goingup and there's still not as much
podcast as there are blogs,because, I mean, I kind of like,
look at almost in the samelight, because blogs came around
(07:06):
when the Internet was firstintroduced because it was 495.
Yeah, it's easier to write.
And there wasn't as much to,like, upload because it was more
of a word document instead oflike audio or video, which we have
now.
So, I mean, for th.
For those looking, how.
How would they find thepodcast maybe to advertise?
(07:28):
Would they look at listen notes?
Would they try to, like, doSome general searches.
Because I feel like that's thebiggest hurdle for a lot of marketers
is where do I find the podcastin my niche?
I would go.
I mean, honestly not.
It's not called itunes anymore.
Apple Podcast is a great placeto look.
Pod Chaser is a great place to look.
Honestly, even IMDb has a wayto put your credits in.
(07:52):
It's a pain.
It's a royal pain.
I tried Vinnie Pasta Vito,who's a, who's a big name guy on
Pod Match and all that stuff.
He is like, oh, you gotta bean IMDb but he's also from traditional
media.
He's like, oh, he's got hiscredits, edit credits and all that
stuff.
He's like, you can be IMDb asa podcaster, but also just start
(08:13):
listening to podcasts that youwant to listen to that you think
might be interesting to you.
And if they're interesting toyou, they're probably interested
in someone else.
And you never know, you mightget in front of someone who isn't
looking for, looking for lawncare service, but they might know
someone who does.
And they say, well, I've beenlistening to this podcast every week
(08:35):
and Joe's lawn service comes up.
You need a lawn service, giveJoe a call.
I mean, it's word of mouth.
It really is.
The best word of mouth is thatand it's repetition.
The more you hear the message,the more you're going to remember
it.
Like, was it Paleo Valley beef sticks?
As much as I hate their ads onYouTube, I'm going to remember them
(08:56):
forever.
I won't ever buy them becausethey annoy me, because they're the
worst ads.
But if you have a good ad andyou don't annoy me and you mean that
I can remember, which is halfthe battle.
That's great.
So, so how do you make theless annoying ads?
Because I know on TV when,like when you're doing on tv, it's
like the show is at thisvolume and then all of a sudden the
(09:20):
ad goes to like 50 and you'relike, I need to mute this because
I'm not going to like do thislittle volume up, volume down dance.
Like how Shine video is theworst for that.
Have you noticed that Amazon,Netflix seems to get their levels
right?
Apple tv, I don't get ads onApple tv.
So that's besides the point.
But Hulu gets it is reallyloud and so is Amazon Video.
(09:42):
They're like, I'm like,honestly, I don't know if that's
something that the Advertiserscontrol or the streaming services
controls.
But like honestly also havegood visuals because if it's louder
and you get muted, if you havea good visual you'll probably unmute,
be unmuted at least the first time.
(10:03):
So people are like wait, whatare they doing?
Like the wall, the the selfieYETI guy now that the AI does with
the yeti and it's talking andso it makes you click on to hear
what the heck, what is that thing.
So be creative and with AI nowbecause even though it's back in
the.
Back in later the teens andthe early aughts on tv there's the
(10:26):
good ads that people paidmillions of dollars for and then
the car ads that are really cheesy.
Now we can all look likethere's really good ads because the
technology is caught up.
That's another reason why backin 94 there's no nothing.
There's no podcasts becausethere's no bandwidth for was not
in 2005 really is when it hitis when people were listening to
(10:48):
MP3s.
People, you know, the musicindustry had the reckoning with Napster.
And so then they came aroundto itunes and Apple and all that
stuff.
That's everything happened fora reason.
And now you can have a goodlooking ad pretty quickly.
And if you're doing a videopodcast, you want those ads everywhere.
(11:11):
You want them in YouTube, youwant them on the podcast, you want
to be awesome for podcasts.
Because sometimes people, I'msure people will listen to this and
some people will watch thisand when you think about it, you
want to have as good audio asyou have video because you don't
know when, how they'reconsuming it.
They only just have all videostuff that's all visual and not have
anything good audio on it.
(11:33):
Got you.
And so I mean from thepodcaster side, it's a mess to figure
out your stats.
You have like 50 differentoptions now.
And so how do the podcastersconvince the marketers to sponsor
them?
Because even I have like chartable.
There's YouTube becauseYouTube doesn't share with my own
podcasting host.
There's Spotify becauseSpotify doesn't share.
(11:54):
Like everybody doesn't sharewith anybody.
The V which you're on.
I know Captivate has its own stats.
I generally tell people tonumber one, gather all your stats
and then kind of making a magic.
What's the word?
Amalgamation.
Brutalizing that word.
But make kind of meld them alltogether and get an estimate and
you know the tilt of thelittle squiggle that's like.
(12:16):
It's just about.
Always put a tilt before thatabout this many people.
People.
And if it's a weird number,bump that up to the next hundred,
you know, so let's say.
Let's say you came to thatnumber and it was a.
Let's say you get 153 people a month.
Listen to your show.
That's a very specific number.
(12:37):
I'd say 130.
I say go 135.
140.
150.
It's kind of.
And then put the tilta and sayit's about this a month for per episode.
Because they're just glancingat this.
They're not going like, oh,well, he's off by 10.
It's true.
Most marketers are not goingto be like, all right, I'm really
going to research this.
Unless they have AI do it.
(12:57):
And even AI won't.
AI will get it wrong.
So, I mean, we.
We have that, and then we havealso RSS feed 2.0 eventually coming
out, which will add video to it.
Will that help with.
Will that help with thenumbers a little bit more?
Because I know, like I said,YouTube has their own.
If you're doing a videopodcast, you're not getting it.
Like, I have Captivate.
(13:19):
You're not getting onCaptivate at all.
They don't count that at all.
And so how do.
Like, is that going to helpwith that issue?
Because the issue is, is thatnow we have, like, two different
formats, and they're basicallysplit stats in a way.
I think this is makingeverything more confusing, honestly,
because people are not gonna.
Aren't gonna know about it,number one.
And then once they're educatedand they know about it, you're gonna
(13:41):
get another set of stats.
You're just gonna give you stats.
You're in stats purgatory.
And it really goes back tojust kind of melding it together
and.
And creating a story aroundthe stats, saying, like, on YouTube,
we're here.
And generally, this is whatthe listeners we have in general
are the people who.
(14:02):
I think a lot of advertiserswho I've talked to, if you do video,
want to know how your video isperforming on YouTube and how.
And then if you are like, oh,you do audio too, which, if you're
a podcast, should be audio too.
They say they want to know theaudio numbers.
So it's.
Separate them and then putthem together kind of thing, in my
(14:25):
opinion.
Got you.
I mean, for example, my setson Spotify I'm hitting women on YouTube,
it's mostly men.
And I'm like, all right, I sure.
Like, I'm.
I would just, I would justmeld this together and, and say generally
I.
It's split.
50.
50 or it's 40.
(14:49):
Where for that otherpercentages, 60, 30 or 60?
40.
70, 30, yeah.
60, 30, 60, 40.
Yeah, exactly.
Like you talked about before,downloads are going away.
So how should we actually do that?
Is it like time watched now?
Because I feel like YouTubehad the better option of like time
watched instead of likedownloads because downloads.
(15:09):
Someone could download it some.
It could be auto download andyou have no idea if actually someone
listen to it.
Timeless, I feel is more, more advantageous.
Or streams.
But streams could be.
They could stream for fiveminutes and it's a 30 minute episode.
So again, it's Amal.
Amalgamate.
I can't say the word, I'musing it a lot.
But an amalgamation of the twoand saying like, you know, we get
(15:34):
a certain amount of streams amonth and this is generally the amount
of time people listen to howlong they listen to our show.
And literally it's probablythe stats in the media kit.
I mean, when in doubt, moreinformation doesn't usually hurt.
Doesn't usually hurt.
True.
And so, I mean we talked.
You mentioned AI a little bit.
So where's this going in thepodcast industry?
(15:56):
I use AI for like the shownotes and a bunch of different stuff
because transcriptions and allthat stuff is easier with AI than
me doing it and spending hourstrying to do it.
But we also now have thescript saying that they have their
own AI avatars and you couldnot even be in front of the camera
anymore, which I'm not reallyin favor of.
It's kind of cool, but I'mprobably will never use it because
(16:16):
I don't think.
Yeah, I don't think it'sreally just a thing.
Well, it's not real.
I mean, it looks like you, butit's not real.
It's too perfect too.
There's no ums and ahs and.
And I'm a very big proponentof telling my clients it's not effing
npr.
You're allowed to take abreath, you're allowed to take a
(16:37):
beat.
You can go, ah, let me thinkabout that.
Like, and.
And then honestly, don't editthis out.
That makes it human.
That makes them moreapproachable, in my opinion.
And if you think about it thatway, AI is doing that.
And if they do it like, Ithink Notebook LM their Podcasts,
(16:57):
they've got actually prettygood with the ums and ahs, but if
you get long enough in it,they start repeating the ums and
odds at the same time.
They run.
They run out of, like, things, colloquialisms.
It's very funny.
So basically, like, use it asa tool, but just don't, like, rely
on it, like, so heavily thatyou just take yourself out of the
(17:19):
old product.
Take yourself out of theequation, and if you had the budget,
hire a voiceover artist forthe front and back bumpers.
It sounds better.
It's just better.
I know for one of my shows Idid with a client, I have a voiceover
artist because I have thebudget to get this done.
Another person used 11 labsfor the bumpers, and it sounds halfway
(17:42):
decent for welcome to this show.
You're listening to this withso and so.
That's fine.
I mean, I know I hearvoiceovers screaming, no, it's not
fine.
But really, it's fine.
If you don't have the budget,they're not gonna get the money anyhow.
So.
No.
And I mean, yeah, for them,it's like, it's taking my job away.
But it's like, well, I mean,yeah, because if you get too expensive,
(18:04):
I'm not gonna be able toafford it.
A lot of people aren't goingto be able to afford it.
So when you're too expensive,I'm gonna go for the cheaper option,
unfortunately.
Yeah.
And it's not even the cheaper option.
Sometimes you just need to getthe stuff out, and working back and
forth on the bumper takes too long.
So I'm still a big proponentof using voiceover artists when you
(18:25):
can.
Absolutely.
I'm not trying to say don'tuse them.
I'm just saying sometimes ifit's a small podcast project that
has no budget, take that into account.
Yeah, it's not the essentialtools that you actually need.
It's a nice to have, but it'snot essential.
So what do you think thefuture of podcasting is going to
look like?
I mean, we've talked about howit's still going up.
(18:46):
It's still going strong forthe time being.
I mean, sometimes it'll be downturns.
I mean, I've seen my downloadsup one month and down one month.
It's kind of like the stock market.
Like, where am I going to bethis month?
So where, where is it?
Where?
What's the future trends forthe next five to 10 years?
Are we going to get more and more?
Are we still going to get thepod fades of people, pod feeds.
And that's my kind of my goalwith Podcast Master is to help people
(19:09):
not fade on the podcast,adjust their cadence, maybe of how
many times they put on a show.
But don't shut down the showor take a hiatus and let people know
you're taking a hiatus andstuff like that.
But I think, I think one ofthe biggest worries, if I'll get
to your question, one of thebiggest worries is that are you too
late?
I've been hearing that.
(19:30):
Am I too late to do a podcast?
No, no, absolutely not.
And I think that podcasting isonly getting more and more popular
in next year, five to 10 years.
Absolutely.
Just like newsletters havecome around.
Ran a newsletter in mynewsletter about how newsletters.
I said newsletters three timesthere, how newsletters are the next
(19:52):
big thing for journalists.
Because the democratization ofthe medium and the media, it's the
same thing.
This is the democratization,that's a hard word to say, democratization
of radio.
It's the podcast.
And everyone can do a podcastif they want.
And if it's interestingenough, people will listen to it.
(20:12):
And you have to be dedicatedto actually do it because people
need to find you and it takes time.
It takes, I would say aboutthree to six months even for people
to find you.
A lot of time.
I think there's, that the statis there's 200 active, 200,000 active
podcasts.
There's 4 million podcasts outthere or more.
But a lot of them have fadedor have gone away.
(20:33):
And there's nothing wrong with it.
Let's say it's Ryan's course.
I've been podcasting for 15plus years.
I've had probably 15 differentpodcasts over those years.
And they've run their course.
Some have been 10 episodes andI'm like, yeah, I'm feeling this
anymore.
Let me pivot and do adifferent show.
And then there's some likedigital Morgan dives going on.
(20:54):
I started in 2018 and thenit's been going on since then.
But we had a two year hiatusbecause I just got busy with entrepreneurs.
Enigma, the other podcast Ido, it's been going on since 2021.
That one's entrepreneurs.
Enigma has been going on nonstop every week for, since 2021,
which it seems like yesterday,but really it's a long time ago.
(21:18):
And what's your one pitch tomarketers that are kind of hesitant
about actually like sponsoringor doing ads?
What's your one pitch aboutwhy it's Good to actually do it on
podcasting.
Because number one, it's cheaper.
They get on the radio.
Really, it's cheaper.
If you think about sponsoringa show, you're probably going to
spend 500 to a thousand amonth depending on, let's say it's
(21:42):
a weekly or bi weekly show.
That's a lot more.
If you try to do it on radioor Sirius or do it through Spotify
directly, you're going.
If you go directly to thepodcaster, going to be thrilled to
have you.
And you can say, well, I'mlooking to spend this.
What can you give me for this?
(22:02):
But it's definitely cheaper.
For now at least inflation happens.
Well, it's cheaper dependingon which podcast you go to as a whole.
Yeah, that's also.
Let's keep that in mind too.
If you go to Joe Rogan, it'snot exactly going to be cheap, but
if you go on EntrepreneursEnigma, I can guarantee you I'll
give you a good deal.
(22:22):
All right, people listening tothis episode, they're wondering where
can they find you online tolearn more?
Well, I gave a bunch of, Ialready gave a bunch of links there,
but best place to go, honestlyis social.
SethGoldstein Me, literallyall my links are there.
Goldstein Media, the webagency is there.
Podcast Mastery, the podcastagency, Coaching practices there.
(22:42):
You can find me on LinkedIn everywhere.
Just look for me.
I'm pretty noticeable.
All right, any final thoughtsfor listeners?
Oh, this has been so much fun, dude.
I love.
Also, don't be afraid to gueston other people's podcasts.
Like me.
Being on your show is gonnahave people say, oh, I'm gonna check
out Seth's show.
Like that's word of mouth.
(23:02):
Brilliant thing.
All right, thank you, Seth forjoining Digital Coffee Marketing,
Reading, sharing knowledge on podcasting.
Thank you for having me and thank.
You for listening as always,please subscribe to this podcast
on your favorite podcasting apps.
Leave a five star review.
It's a with the rankings andlet me know how I am doing.
But join me next week as Italk about what's going on, the PR
and marketing industry and thegreat thought leaders in there as
(23:24):
well.
All right, guys, stay safe,get to understanding podcasting and
see if it actually works foryou to start one, guest one or advertise
on one and see you next week later.
Foreign.
That's good.
And welcome to a new episodeof Digital Coffee Marketing Brew.
And I'm your host, Brett Dice.
(00:20):
If you could please subscribeto this podcast on all your favorite
podcasting apps, leave a fivestar review.
Really just help with therankings and let me know how I am
doing.
But this week I'm gonna betalking with Seth Goldstein is an
entrepreneur, founder,podcaster, techie, father, husband,
and social media junkie.
He's been podcasting since2010, which is even before I kind
(00:43):
of started.
So he's been doing a lotlonger than I have.
And he's owned his own digitalmarketing company, Goldstein Media,
for more than 15 years.
Welcome to the show, Seth.
How's it going?
Brett, how you doing?
Thanks for having me.
Doing good.
When the first question is allmy guest is, are you a coffee or
tea drinker?
I like coffee.
It doesn't like me, so I haveto drink tea.
(01:03):
You have any like specificteas that you like?
Like anything with a lot of caffeine.
So it'd be more like green tea.
I think green tea has the most caffeine.
They're and they're not asponsor of anything for me, but they
Tea Republic, Republic of Teahas a high caffeinated, like more
than caffeine than coffee.
(01:25):
Black tea that I drink everyday wakes me up, gets me about halfway
through the day before I haveto have another cup.
But I do like coffee a lot.
It just irks my belly.
So we'll leave it at 2.
Too acidic?
Is that what it is?
I don't know what it is.
It just hurts my belly.
Gotcha.
Have you tried like cold brew?
Because cold brew is less.
(01:46):
I love cold brew.
It actually might help withthe stomach thing if it's acidity.
I'll try that out.
Yeah, I, I, I just tend, I, Ifound the tea that works.
Dive into that every once in a while.
I'll treat myself to a coffeeand then regret it later.
All right, I gave a brief someof your expertise.
Can you listen a little bitmore about what you do?
(02:07):
Yes, absolutely.
So, yes, I've been podcastingsince 2010, so I'm, I like to say
that's like the secondrenaissance of podcasting.
Second round of podcastersfirst were in their early aughts
like 2005-2010.
Adam Curry, Leo Laporte, allthose guys kind of got in there at
(02:27):
the start.
I kind of came in when itstarted to be easier to podcast.
Like there was Google hangoutson air that this recorded stuff and
video and all that stuff thatjust seemed to work, and I could
get my head around it.
So I started that.
I've actually been a DigitalMarketer since 2008.
The best time to start abusiness at the height of a global
recession.
(02:48):
But it's also, when you thinkabout it as an entrepreneur, no one's
going to hire you during aglobal recession, so you got to start
your own shingle.
And I've been doing that ever since.
That's been like 17 years.
And then about a year and ahalf ago, I decided, hey, I've been
helping people with podcastingfor a while.
Why don't I monetize that?
So I started Podcast Mastery,where I help podcasters kind of get
(03:11):
a handle on the wholecraziness that is this podcasting
Third renaissance, I like tocall it now.
Got you.
And so, yeah, you are correct.
Podcasting started.
Well, technically, it startedin 2005.
That was kind of the firsttime itunes really did something
with it.
But the first artist feed waslike, 2003 was like the first act.
(03:34):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I had to look up becauseI think I saw, like a job description
said, like, 20 plus or 25 plusyears of podcast experience.
And I'm like, nobody has thatbecause it hasn't been around that
long.
Yeah, I do think there has.
Yeah, I do think that.
That people were dabblingbefore, but Apple, of course, made
it popular, so go figure.
(03:54):
Speaking of podcasts, like,what should.
What should markers know about podcasting?
Because I feel like they.
They kind of understand it andit's getting more popular and I'm
getting.
Being a lot more requests, butI don't think they really understand,
like, like downloads, forexample, like, who they should sponsor
because they feel like that you.
They should have like, the JoeRogans and everything, and that's
(04:15):
like the 0.100001% of podcasts.
So what should they know aboutsponsorships and, like, getting guests
on and all that stuff?
It.
Finding guests isn't as hardas you would think.
You know, just ask.
And people love to talk aboutthemselves, so that's easy.
As far as downloads go, I feellike downloads are going away because
(04:35):
people don't download podcasts anymore.
They stream them.
So there's like, there's astreaming streams metric and there's
a download metric, and thedownload metric is kind of going
literally just kind ofevolutionarily going away because
no one technically downloadsthem anymore.
And when you think about it, Ithink marketers and business owners
(04:57):
who want to sponsor podcastsshould look at podcasts that are
in their ne.
In their niche, that are inthat talk about what they.
Who they want to get in frontof, where they're, you know, fish.
Where the fish are, essentially.
And you want to make sure thatyou find the podcast.
You're not going to find theJoe Rogan, Samuel Robbins, you know,
(05:19):
you can.
You're going to spend afreaking fortune on them.
And you're probably not gonnaget any hits on it.
If someone has like a hundredlisteners per their episode or 30
per episode by 100 per monthor whatever, and you get two deals
from it, or you get a bunch ofclicks from it, that's all matters.
I feel like metrics are lessimportant than results.
(05:44):
And so.
And I also think that you haveto give it more than a month.
You should commit to three tosix months on being in someone's
podcast.
And then if it doesn't work,all right, it didn't work.
You know, you tried it, youknow, no harm, no foul, but you can't
get results in a month.
Very rarely will you find, oh,unless you're a vitamin supplement
(06:04):
and Joe Rogan likes yourvitamin supplement, then you might
get a hit.
But like, if you're, let's say.
Let's say you're doing a localpodcast in, let's say, Bucks County,
Pennsylvania, which is where Ilive, and the, and the icp, the customer
profile of the.
Of the people who listen arelocal business owners or local homeowners
(06:25):
or whatever, there's ahandyman podcast, and you are a landscaper.
That's like a perfect spot totalk about what you do and have an
ad spot on it.
But then there's also biggerpodcasts that are a little bit more
ambiguous on what you should.
You should be where you should be.
(06:46):
But it can't hurt to try itand see if it works because podcasting
is only getting more and more popular.
Yeah, I mean, from thenumbers, it's.
The advertising is still goingup and there's still not as much
podcast as there are blogs,because, I mean, I kind of like,
look at almost in the samelight, because blogs came around
(07:06):
when the Internet was firstintroduced because it was 495.
Yeah, it's easier to write.
And there wasn't as much to,like, upload because it was more
of a word document instead oflike audio or video, which we have
now.
So, I mean, for th.
For those looking, how.
How would they find thepodcast maybe to advertise?
(07:28):
Would they look at listen notes?
Would they try to, like, doSome general searches.
Because I feel like that's thebiggest hurdle for a lot of marketers
is where do I find the podcastin my niche?
I would go.
I mean, honestly not.
It's not called itunes anymore.
Apple Podcast is a great placeto look.
Pod Chaser is a great place to look.
Honestly, even IMDb has a wayto put your credits in.
(07:52):
It's a pain.
It's a royal pain.
I tried Vinnie Pasta Vito,who's a, who's a big name guy on
Pod Match and all that stuff.
He is like, oh, you gotta bean IMDb but he's also from traditional
media.
He's like, oh, he's got hiscredits, edit credits and all that
stuff.
He's like, you can be IMDb asa podcaster, but also just start
(08:13):
listening to podcasts that youwant to listen to that you think
might be interesting to you.
And if they're interesting toyou, they're probably interested
in someone else.
And you never know, you mightget in front of someone who isn't
looking for, looking for lawncare service, but they might know
someone who does.
And they say, well, I've beenlistening to this podcast every week
(08:35):
and Joe's lawn service comes up.
You need a lawn service, giveJoe a call.
I mean, it's word of mouth.
It really is.
The best word of mouth is thatand it's repetition.
The more you hear the message,the more you're going to remember
it.
Like, was it Paleo Valley beef sticks?
As much as I hate their ads onYouTube, I'm going to remember them
(08:56):
forever.
I won't ever buy them becausethey annoy me, because they're the
worst ads.
But if you have a good ad andyou don't annoy me and you mean that
I can remember, which is halfthe battle.
That's great.
So, so how do you make theless annoying ads?
Because I know on TV when,like when you're doing on tv, it's
like the show is at thisvolume and then all of a sudden the
(09:20):
ad goes to like 50 and you'relike, I need to mute this because
I'm not going to like do thislittle volume up, volume down dance.
Like how Shine video is theworst for that.
Have you noticed that Amazon,Netflix seems to get their levels
right?
Apple tv, I don't get ads onApple tv.
So that's besides the point.
But Hulu gets it is reallyloud and so is Amazon Video.
(09:42):
They're like, I'm like,honestly, I don't know if that's
something that the Advertiserscontrol or the streaming services
controls.
But like honestly also havegood visuals because if it's louder
and you get muted, if you havea good visual you'll probably unmute,
be unmuted at least the first time.
(10:03):
So people are like wait, whatare they doing?
Like the wall, the the selfieYETI guy now that the AI does with
the yeti and it's talking andso it makes you click on to hear
what the heck, what is that thing.
So be creative and with AI nowbecause even though it's back in
the.
Back in later the teens andthe early aughts on tv there's the
(10:26):
good ads that people paidmillions of dollars for and then
the car ads that are really cheesy.
Now we can all look likethere's really good ads because the
technology is caught up.
That's another reason why backin 94 there's no nothing.
There's no podcasts becausethere's no bandwidth for was not
in 2005 really is when it hitis when people were listening to
(10:48):
MP3s.
People, you know, the musicindustry had the reckoning with Napster.
And so then they came aroundto itunes and Apple and all that
stuff.
That's everything happened fora reason.
And now you can have a goodlooking ad pretty quickly.
And if you're doing a videopodcast, you want those ads everywhere.
(11:11):
You want them in YouTube, youwant them on the podcast, you want
to be awesome for podcasts.
Because sometimes people, I'msure people will listen to this and
some people will watch thisand when you think about it, you
want to have as good audio asyou have video because you don't
know when, how they'reconsuming it.
They only just have all videostuff that's all visual and not have
anything good audio on it.
(11:33):
Got you.
And so I mean from thepodcaster side, it's a mess to figure
out your stats.
You have like 50 differentoptions now.
And so how do the podcastersconvince the marketers to sponsor
them?
Because even I have like chartable.
There's YouTube becauseYouTube doesn't share with my own
podcasting host.
There's Spotify becauseSpotify doesn't share.
(11:54):
Like everybody doesn't sharewith anybody.
The V which you're on.
I know Captivate has its own stats.
I generally tell people tonumber one, gather all your stats
and then kind of making a magic.
What's the word?
Amalgamation.
Brutalizing that word.
But make kind of meld them alltogether and get an estimate and
you know the tilt of thelittle squiggle that's like.
(12:16):
It's just about.
Always put a tilt before thatabout this many people.
People.
And if it's a weird number,bump that up to the next hundred,
you know, so let's say.
Let's say you came to thatnumber and it was a.
Let's say you get 153 people a month.
Listen to your show.
That's a very specific number.
(12:37):
I'd say 130.
I say go 135.
140.
150.
It's kind of.
And then put the tilta and sayit's about this a month for per episode.
Because they're just glancingat this.
They're not going like, oh,well, he's off by 10.
It's true.
Most marketers are not goingto be like, all right, I'm really
going to research this.
Unless they have AI do it.
(12:57):
And even AI won't.
AI will get it wrong.
So, I mean, we.
We have that, and then we havealso RSS feed 2.0 eventually coming
out, which will add video to it.
Will that help with.
Will that help with thenumbers a little bit more?
Because I know, like I said,YouTube has their own.
If you're doing a videopodcast, you're not getting it.
Like, I have Captivate.
(13:19):
You're not getting onCaptivate at all.
They don't count that at all.
And so how do.
Like, is that going to helpwith that issue?
Because the issue is, is thatnow we have, like, two different
formats, and they're basicallysplit stats in a way.
I think this is makingeverything more confusing, honestly,
because people are not gonna.
Aren't gonna know about it,number one.
And then once they're educatedand they know about it, you're gonna
(13:41):
get another set of stats.
You're just gonna give you stats.
You're in stats purgatory.
And it really goes back tojust kind of melding it together
and.
And creating a story aroundthe stats, saying, like, on YouTube,
we're here.
And generally, this is whatthe listeners we have in general
are the people who.
(14:02):
I think a lot of advertiserswho I've talked to, if you do video,
want to know how your video isperforming on YouTube and how.
And then if you are like, oh,you do audio too, which, if you're
a podcast, should be audio too.
They say they want to know theaudio numbers.
So it's.
Separate them and then putthem together kind of thing, in my
(14:25):
opinion.
Got you.
I mean, for example, my setson Spotify I'm hitting women on YouTube,
it's mostly men.
And I'm like, all right, I sure.
Like, I'm.
I would just, I would justmeld this together and, and say generally
I.
It's split.
50.
50 or it's 40.
(14:49):
Where for that otherpercentages, 60, 30 or 60?
40.
70, 30, yeah.
60, 30, 60, 40.
Yeah, exactly.
Like you talked about before,downloads are going away.
So how should we actually do that?
Is it like time watched now?
Because I feel like YouTubehad the better option of like time
watched instead of likedownloads because downloads.
(15:09):
Someone could download it some.
It could be auto download andyou have no idea if actually someone
listen to it.
Timeless, I feel is more, more advantageous.
Or streams.
But streams could be.
They could stream for fiveminutes and it's a 30 minute episode.
So again, it's Amal.
Amalgamate.
I can't say the word, I'musing it a lot.
But an amalgamation of the twoand saying like, you know, we get
(15:34):
a certain amount of streams amonth and this is generally the amount
of time people listen to howlong they listen to our show.
And literally it's probablythe stats in the media kit.
I mean, when in doubt, moreinformation doesn't usually hurt.
Doesn't usually hurt.
True.
And so, I mean we talked.
You mentioned AI a little bit.
So where's this going in thepodcast industry?
(15:56):
I use AI for like the shownotes and a bunch of different stuff
because transcriptions and allthat stuff is easier with AI than
me doing it and spending hourstrying to do it.
But we also now have thescript saying that they have their
own AI avatars and you couldnot even be in front of the camera
anymore, which I'm not reallyin favor of.
It's kind of cool, but I'mprobably will never use it because
(16:16):
I don't think.
Yeah, I don't think it'sreally just a thing.
Well, it's not real.
I mean, it looks like you, butit's not real.
It's too perfect too.
There's no ums and ahs and.
And I'm a very big proponentof telling my clients it's not effing
npr.
You're allowed to take abreath, you're allowed to take a
(16:37):
beat.
You can go, ah, let me thinkabout that.
Like, and.
And then honestly, don't editthis out.
That makes it human.
That makes them moreapproachable, in my opinion.
And if you think about it thatway, AI is doing that.
And if they do it like, Ithink Notebook LM their Podcasts,
(16:57):
they've got actually prettygood with the ums and ahs, but if
you get long enough in it,they start repeating the ums and
odds at the same time.
They run.
They run out of, like, things, colloquialisms.
It's very funny.
So basically, like, use it asa tool, but just don't, like, rely
on it, like, so heavily thatyou just take yourself out of the
(17:19):
old product.
Take yourself out of theequation, and if you had the budget,
hire a voiceover artist forthe front and back bumpers.
It sounds better.
It's just better.
I know for one of my shows Idid with a client, I have a voiceover
artist because I have thebudget to get this done.
Another person used 11 labsfor the bumpers, and it sounds halfway
(17:42):
decent for welcome to this show.
You're listening to this withso and so.
That's fine.
I mean, I know I hearvoiceovers screaming, no, it's not
fine.
But really, it's fine.
If you don't have the budget,they're not gonna get the money anyhow.
So.
No.
And I mean, yeah, for them,it's like, it's taking my job away.
But it's like, well, I mean,yeah, because if you get too expensive,
(18:04):
I'm not gonna be able toafford it.
A lot of people aren't goingto be able to afford it.
So when you're too expensive,I'm gonna go for the cheaper option,
unfortunately.
Yeah.
And it's not even the cheaper option.
Sometimes you just need to getthe stuff out, and working back and
forth on the bumper takes too long.
So I'm still a big proponentof using voiceover artists when you
(18:25):
can.
Absolutely.
I'm not trying to say don'tuse them.
I'm just saying sometimes ifit's a small podcast project that
has no budget, take that into account.
Yeah, it's not the essentialtools that you actually need.
It's a nice to have, but it'snot essential.
So what do you think thefuture of podcasting is going to
look like?
I mean, we've talked about howit's still going up.
(18:46):
It's still going strong forthe time being.
I mean, sometimes it'll be downturns.
I mean, I've seen my downloadsup one month and down one month.
It's kind of like the stock market.
Like, where am I going to bethis month?
So where, where is it?
Where?
What's the future trends forthe next five to 10 years?
Are we going to get more and more?
Are we still going to get thepod fades of people, pod feeds.
And that's my kind of my goalwith Podcast Master is to help people
(19:09):
not fade on the podcast,adjust their cadence, maybe of how
many times they put on a show.
But don't shut down the showor take a hiatus and let people know
you're taking a hiatus andstuff like that.
But I think, I think one ofthe biggest worries, if I'll get
to your question, one of thebiggest worries is that are you too
late?
I've been hearing that.
(19:30):
Am I too late to do a podcast?
No, no, absolutely not.
And I think that podcasting isonly getting more and more popular
in next year, five to 10 years.
Absolutely.
Just like newsletters havecome around.
Ran a newsletter in mynewsletter about how newsletters.
I said newsletters three timesthere, how newsletters are the next
(19:52):
big thing for journalists.
Because the democratization ofthe medium and the media, it's the
same thing.
This is the democratization,that's a hard word to say, democratization
of radio.
It's the podcast.
And everyone can do a podcastif they want.
And if it's interestingenough, people will listen to it.
(20:12):
And you have to be dedicatedto actually do it because people
need to find you and it takes time.
It takes, I would say aboutthree to six months even for people
to find you.
A lot of time.
I think there's, that the statis there's 200 active, 200,000 active
podcasts.
There's 4 million podcasts outthere or more.
But a lot of them have fadedor have gone away.
(20:33):
And there's nothing wrong with it.
Let's say it's Ryan's course.
I've been podcasting for 15plus years.
I've had probably 15 differentpodcasts over those years.
And they've run their course.
Some have been 10 episodes andI'm like, yeah, I'm feeling this
anymore.
Let me pivot and do adifferent show.
And then there's some likedigital Morgan dives going on.
(20:54):
I started in 2018 and thenit's been going on since then.
But we had a two year hiatusbecause I just got busy with entrepreneurs.
Enigma, the other podcast Ido, it's been going on since 2021.
That one's entrepreneurs.
Enigma has been going on nonstop every week for, since 2021,
which it seems like yesterday,but really it's a long time ago.
(21:18):
And what's your one pitch tomarketers that are kind of hesitant
about actually like sponsoringor doing ads?
What's your one pitch aboutwhy it's Good to actually do it on
podcasting.
Because number one, it's cheaper.
They get on the radio.
Really, it's cheaper.
If you think about sponsoringa show, you're probably going to
spend 500 to a thousand amonth depending on, let's say it's
(21:42):
a weekly or bi weekly show.
That's a lot more.
If you try to do it on radioor Sirius or do it through Spotify
directly, you're going.
If you go directly to thepodcaster, going to be thrilled to
have you.
And you can say, well, I'mlooking to spend this.
What can you give me for this?
(22:02):
But it's definitely cheaper.
For now at least inflation happens.
Well, it's cheaper dependingon which podcast you go to as a whole.
Yeah, that's also.
Let's keep that in mind too.
If you go to Joe Rogan, it'snot exactly going to be cheap, but
if you go on EntrepreneursEnigma, I can guarantee you I'll
give you a good deal.
(22:22):
All right, people listening tothis episode, they're wondering where
can they find you online tolearn more?
Well, I gave a bunch of, Ialready gave a bunch of links there,
but best place to go, honestlyis social.
SethGoldstein Me, literallyall my links are there.
Goldstein Media, the webagency is there.
Podcast Mastery, the podcastagency, Coaching practices there.
(22:42):
You can find me on LinkedIn everywhere.
Just look for me.
I'm pretty noticeable.
All right, any final thoughtsfor listeners?
Oh, this has been so much fun, dude.
I love.
Also, don't be afraid to gueston other people's podcasts.
Like me.
Being on your show is gonnahave people say, oh, I'm gonna check
out Seth's show.
Like that's word of mouth.
(23:02):
Brilliant thing.
All right, thank you, Seth forjoining Digital Coffee Marketing,
Reading, sharing knowledge on podcasting.
Thank you for having me and thank.
You for listening as always,please subscribe to this podcast
on your favorite podcasting apps.
Leave a five star review.
It's a with the rankings andlet me know how I am doing.
But join me next week as Italk about what's going on, the PR
and marketing industry and thegreat thought leaders in there as
(23:24):
well.
All right, guys, stay safe,get to understanding podcasting and
see if it actually works foryou to start one, guest one or advertise
on one and see you next week later.
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