May 28, 2025 • 53 mins
In Episode 13 of this season’s Digital and Dirt podcast, Ian welcomes Norm Chait, VP of U.S. Marketplace at Perion, a global provider of digital advertising services. to discuss the evolution of Out of Home advertising, its integration with programmatic and digital platforms, and the creative, data-driven approaches transforming the industry.
Breakdown
0:00 – 1:54 Introduction, proposal story, and early passions
1:55 – 5:05 Getting Started in Advertising
5:06 – 8:06 Alcohol Brands & Real-World Learning
8:07 – 16:05 Choosing OOH Over TV
16:06 – 22:27 Most Memorable Campaigns
22:28 – 34:32 Entering Programmatic OOH
34:33 – 53:24 What’s Next: Perion, Retail Media, and More
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
I'm Ian Delamore, and this is Digital& Dirt.
SPEAKER_01 (00:10):
I appreciate adult beverage, but yeah, there's
obviously everything inmoderation, but it's just funny
that, and this wasn't by design,but my ex-kid, I was at a small
shop, I worked on a variety ofdifferent distilled spirits.
SPEAKER_02 (00:22):
Coachella just ended a couple of months ago, and it's
like, that's the campaigns thatget spoken about the most.
That's the viral aspect of it.
SPEAKER_01 (00:32):
and you start to make these connections, but you
realize it's bigger than justhow to pump.
It's using technology in a wayto solve a problem we never had
access to.
SPEAKER_02 (00:49):
back guys my next guest this is gonna be fun i've
known him for a very long timeso we'll have a lot of fun
stories to tell he proposed tohis wife on a billboard and she
said yes so that's how we knowout of home works i think we
should build a case study ithink that'd be brilliant he
loves to cook he almost chose togo to culinary school instead of
out of home he loves to travelwhich obviously travel equals
(01:10):
great food and he used to be aprofessional mime as a kid And
he doesn't want to go there, butwe will.
My good friend, VP of USMarketplace at Perion, Norm
Chait.
Good to see you.
Likewise.
Nice to be here, Ian.
Thank you very much.
We've known each other for howlong?
I remember my first pitch ever,and we're going to go into your
journey, but I remember my firstpitch ever to your star-studded
(01:33):
all-star team, if you think backon that team.
And a lot of them are still inthe space, but walking into that
room, seeing you, Norm, and itwas just kind of like, all
right, Norm's the easy one.
I got Keith Klein in the back.
I got Sarah Teachout.
Just throw some shout outsthere.
I got Beth.
So, I mean, how much fun wasthat?
SPEAKER_01 (01:54):
Yeah, I mean, that was definitely the heyday.
I mean, the good news is we'restill having fun.
I think this is, you alluded tothis, you know, our connection
being, you know, as long as ithas probably 20 plus years, I
think that's not counting.
At 20, probably safer for me todo that.
But absolutely, it was just tonsof fun.
I think we were...
Not that we were pioneers, but Ifeel like we were on this sort
(02:15):
of cusp of trying to elevate theout-of-home story every single
day, feeling the struggle everysingle day because we're like,
how do we get to the big boytable?
How do we get bigger budgets?
How do we just...
illustrate the excitement thatwe all had, the passion that we
all had to clients and agenciesthat we're working with and blue
(02:37):
chip brands who were starting topoke at it.
And obviously people have beenusing it forever and ever, all
this form of advertising outthere, but we always kind of
felt like, you know, theafterthought.
So we had this really greatgroup of folks, this fun team
who love working together.
I think that was sort of thethread that just was always
unbroken.
And it is to this day, like wesee each other 20 plus years
(02:58):
later and we pick up right wherewe left off and we're remember
those late nights.
And God, when I started, I hadto go to a computer room to
actually build a flow chart.
And hopefully somebody, youknow, there was one available
that was like, all right, I'llcome back later.
Now that's just hard to evenfathom, but a lot of fun, but
still having fun.
So hence why we're still doingit.
SPEAKER_02 (03:18):
Yeah.
We're going to go deeper intothat conversation when we get to
that point in the journey forsure.
But you proposed to your wifeand I've known this story, but
what, how did your wife takethat?
Cause I know my wife, I'll neverforget this moment, but LSU was
in the national championship andwe were like walking in.
And for some reason there waslike a concert that happened.
And then this guy in thissection like got down on one
(03:38):
knee.
And I just remember my wifesaying, if you ever propose to
me that way, like it's a hardno.
And like our relationship'sover.
So you took it to a whole notherlevel and dropped it off the
board.
UNKNOWN (03:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (03:50):
I made it public for sure, you know, and probably one
of the largest stages in theworld.
I mean, that wasn't directly inthe heart of Times Square.
It was just off of Times Square,obviously, 42nd and 9th, I
believe it was.
So just just off.
And I mean, so a ton, a ton ofpeople.
She thought we're going todinner with friends.
And, you know, I had this thingposted the day or two before.
(04:12):
And, you know, at first shethought we're making a turn in
the corner.
I was like, hey, did you eversee one of these before?
And as she left off, I sounded,I dropped it on me.
And that's coming up on20-something years later, too.
Not that I stopped counting to20, but I start to forget after
20 how many years it's been.
So it's definitely a case studyfor out of home.
(04:34):
It was a beautiful moment.
I love that.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_02 (04:36):
my wife and I actually just celebrated our
18th anniversary.
anniversary yesterday, wheneverthis podcast drops.
Yeah, for sure.
My mother's day and all that.
So yeah.
And I see that big sharing ofthe holiday.
All right.
We're going to save the lastbullet point for the end for
sure.
So you're not getting out ofthat one.
Let's talk about your journey.
So majored in marketing andadvertising and you got an
(04:57):
internship.
Tell us about that.
Tell us where the passion beganto kind of evolve into why Norm
is who he is.
SPEAKER_01 (05:05):
Yeah, I appreciate that.
It was definitely...
As I was going through businessschool, I think the one thing
that I kept gravitating towardswere the advertising and
marketing side of that business.
And just really enjoyed howmarketers tell stories, how they
connect with consumers.
And at the time, it wasn't anAdam Holmes-specific track.
(05:27):
It was more so just like, how dowe excite people about brands
and make those connections?
And the...
at Baruch, which is where Istudied here in New York City.
They had really comprehensivemarketing programs.
We actually were writing our owncommercials and actually
shooting them in studios.
It was a really nice immersioninto that space.
(05:48):
I just continued to find it.
This was something I reallyenjoyed and was passionate
about.
I was able to actually get aninternship at the time.
It was Bakersfield Local Bates,which evolved to lots of
different iterations over theyears, but landed an internship
on the Millard genuine draftaccount.
So imagine how excited I was inmy college years to be on a
(06:09):
major beer brand.
And they were literally closetsfull of cases of beer that we
wanted to make sure weunderstood the product.
Yeah, of course.
That part was very convenient.
And working with 20-somethingswho at the time were like, who
are these adults who arebuilding all these crazy plans?
And I'm just this kid whodoesn't you know, what I was
(06:30):
doing.
But I quickly learned that, youknow, just how to find
consumers, how to connect withthem, how to tell those stories,
and actually being closer to thecreative too, because at the
time, creative agencies andmedia agencies were very closely
linked.
So being able to see the entirethread was a really strong
learning experience for me.
And also, in some ways, being abit of a focus group for them,
(06:51):
because I was sort of thetarget.
So they would have these...
designations for different typeof drinkers, you know, A, B, C,
and D.
And, you know, an A drinker ismaybe a couple of beers a week
and all the way through D whereyou do a case a week.
You know, and salespeople wouldcome in and meet with our
supervisors and planners andthey would walk them through
(07:12):
this categorization.
And when they got to the Dcategory, they're like, how does
somebody do a case a week?
And they would call me in like,all right, here's Norm.
Okay.
Let him walk you through.
I explained they, they didn'tget the gig, but they were
definitely part of thecontributing, be drinking, you
know, team.
(07:33):
But when you break it down dayby day, and then Thursday,
Friday, Saturday rolls aroundand got with the boys, like next
thing you know, you, Pretty muchkilled it.
Okay.
So it was fun to be living thebrand while actually working on
it.
And then from there, I realizedthat that actually turned into a
real gig after my internship,which is why I always encourage
my boys to get thoseinternships.
(07:53):
This is a great way to get inand start to understand what
you're passionate about and makethose connections, learn
something along the way, andbuild on it for your future.
So that's how it all started.
And then we moved on to othershops, other places.
SPEAKER_02 (08:06):
Yeah.
And such a great opportunity tolike, obviously my journey is
all over the place as far asinternships worked at a beach
and water park, like five-starresort, then worked in, in
baseball for the Braves.
And it really, to your point,like for our young, you and I
are, well, I'll say I'm old, butI'm older.
Yeah.
So I encourage it all the time.
Like go out there, like get, getsome wild internships, figure it
(08:30):
out because you know, nothing'sworse than you go get your first
job and you're like, this isawful.
Yeah.
But in your case, you trulyfound your passion and kind of
the uniqueness that is the adspace.
It's also it'll suck you in.
And you're like, you know, ifyou wanted to go off to med
school or become a lawyer, it'slike, don't get into the ad
industry because you will getsucked in because it's so much
fun.
(08:50):
And I love that because you'reyou got to be at the pulse.
And, you know, so when you yournext phase, it's kind of like a
theme here, Norm.
And I know you say you're not a
SPEAKER_01 (09:01):
raging alcoholic.
No, I appreciate an adultbeverage.
But yeah, there's obviouslyeverything in moderation.
But it's just funny that, andthis wasn't by design, but my
next gig, I was at a small shop.
I worked on a variety ofdifferent distilled spirits,
Johnny Walker brands, simplemalt scotches.
So there is a little bit of atheme going on or like this is
just sort of fortuitous the wayit worked, but also a little
(09:22):
more challenging to sample thatat the level that maybe...
we were experiencing the Millerbrands at the time, but
definitely helped me understandmaybe a more refined palette for
different target audiences,different set of media that you
would have to apply.
So like that was actuallyinteresting for me is, you know,
while it's a similar category,there's definitely different
approaches and you have to justkind of pivot to understand
(09:44):
where you're going to make thoseconnections and, you know,
resonate with your coreconsumers.
But yeah, there definitely was atheme, I think, after that.
And of course, there were someother brands and insurance
brands, but, you know, Everyoneneeds insurance, but how
exciting is that to talk about,really, as compared to the soul
spirits and field testing andall the things that we used to
do?
And then from there, I pivotedto Amirati Pure Swing Tests on
(10:06):
the McCarty account.
So yes, there is definitely abit of a theme, but also a
very...
Different type of brands with alot of history, you know, and it
was interesting to see that asmuch as like the distilled
spirits category was evolvingand all those super premium
latkes were coming out andAbsolute was on the back cover
of every single magazine, youknow, parties were...
Yeah, I mean, it just, you know,was that was really the heyday.
(10:30):
And I was on a very print heavybusiness because broadcast was
off the table for brands inthose categories.
So heavy, heavy print and tryingto, you know, fight for those
back covers with, you know, whenthere were locked positions with
brands like Absolute.
So being able to build that overa few years on that business was
(10:53):
another sort of evolution oflike, how do we create a
dominant presence in theadvertising world.
And the mailroom guys used toliterally every day roll up with
dollies of checking copies ofmagazines.
And so I was almost buried bymagazines because we were just
in every single publication youcan imagine.
But again, that was anotherpivot to understand.
(11:13):
In that time, in a very superpremium vodka generation, how
does a brand like Bacardi breakthrough?
And playing that premium...
you know, still spirit category.
So that was another fun, funstint.
But again, never really, like wedid some out of home there.
I know getting to the out ofhome phase of the career.
SPEAKER_02 (11:36):
And to jump in there, we, a great episode, if
you folks want to go back andlisten, but Sophie Kelly, who
was a CMO of Diageo, phenomenal.
And I, you know, all jokingaside, like Miller, you know,
Johnny Walker, Bacardi, likeespecially the first two were, I
think that's the fun part aboutbeing on an account and you
working across all facets, notjust out of home, but the
(11:58):
multimedia is there's a storybehind it, right?
There's a history behind whereit was founded.
How did it start?
Where is it distilled?
What is the family historybehind it?
So I think oftentimes, that'sthe fun part about advertising.
Like, yes, Absolute had...
And side note, that's actuallyhow I ended up fallen in love
(12:20):
with out of home is all thosemagazines that you used to have.
I used to, my brother and Iwould cut them out and like
paste them around our room, tapethem up.
And then we were almost likemodern day bill posters at the
time is we would like removethem.
And every time absolute wouldput one of those amazing, you
know, back of the magazine ads,but it's, it, it is fun to be
(12:41):
able to kind of take a briefthat has so much history in it.
I mean, you and I just got backfrom our industry conference and
I'll let you kind of tell thestory, but you know, well-known
celebrity from, you know, alwayssunny in Philadelphia started
this whiskey rye brand andthat's a fun story.
So the, so touch on that a bit,like the being able to work
(13:03):
across all media types early inyour career while getting these
very historical briefsoftentimes.
SPEAKER_01 (13:10):
Yeah.
I mean, I think having that as afoundation was definitely very
valuable because as I,eventually pivoted into much
more of a focus in and out ofhome.
Like having that foundation wasreally valuable to me because I
was able to understand whenplans were being built, you
know, what was the rationale,what was getting priority, where
(13:31):
were the dollars going and whatwas the thought process behind
that.
So having that insight, evenwhen I was then, you know,
really diving into a morespecific track around out of
home allowed me to tell thatstory that much better and
really figuring out where doesthat piece fit.
So knowing that there aredifferent modeling techniques
(13:53):
and solutions that brands areleaning on to understand how to
make those connections, figuringout do we have the right inputs
to have a holistic view of acampaign, factoring in what we
know about those brands, theirhistory, who they appeal to the
most, and finding those rightmoments.
You know, everything has aplace.
So being able to figure outwhere each touch point can live,
(14:17):
sometimes challenging, but alsobeing able to have that
perspective, because I thinksometimes, you know, when we
still see it, there's still verysiloed approaches to a lot of
media decisions.
So, you know, in those years,even being close to the creative
process was incredibly valuable.
The media team was actuallyinvited to the creative pitches
and the storyboard sessions,because we can actually see, you
(14:39):
know, the reactions of brandteams and where they see their
brands and who their corecustomers are and how they want
to speak to them.
So that how we speak to thempiece translates to, is it a
radio spot?
Is it a back cover of a fashionmagazine?
Is it a high-profile spectacularin Times Square or somewhere on
somebody's journey?
(15:00):
And sometimes it's all of theabove, but being able to
understand the role that eachchannel plays I think it's
something that I was privilegedto be a part of and then take
that learning into a much morefocused approach that I'm in.
SPEAKER_02 (15:14):
Yeah.
Inside Note Kids, he did thisall while not having a
programmatic platform or digitaltechnology.
Old school, for sure.
Old school, yeah.
A lot of dots on the maps, a lotof rolling up the sleeves.
I love that.
SPEAKER_00 (15:27):
Yeah, I
SPEAKER_01 (15:27):
had a yellow pad, a pencil, and a phone on my desk.
And like I mentioned earlier, wehad to go to a computer room to
like maybe put somethingtogether on like prettier than
that.
So times have changed.
SPEAKER_02 (15:38):
Yeah, but it does become the theme of where you
are today in your career.
But before we jump to it, thisis where you hit your gauntlet,
right?
You're 20 plus years in thespecialized out-of-home role.
And that all started at, youknow, famous Ogilvy Mindshare.
So what was that decision whereit was like out of all the
media, most people at the timewould jump to TV because it's
(16:01):
sexy and glamorous.
But you chose that.
SPEAKER_01 (16:05):
Yeah, it's a great question.
And there was definitely momentsthroughout my more traditional
planning and buying of allformats of media that I kept.
hearing certain things playedback consistently from brand
teams that, you know, we mighthave multi-million dollar TV
campaigns in market and printcampaigns and all sorts of other
channels.
And maybe we would do some sortof, you know, experiential thing
(16:26):
on the Metro North platformwhere people were hired, like,
you know, the jet packs ofcoffee and like in people's
commutes, I think it was aMaxwell house effort we were
doing.
And like the thing that gotplayed back the most was that
hundred K thing that maybe wedid way back when, uh, Like
that's what everybody talkedabout versus the millions of
dollars we were spending onother channels.
Like, you know what, maybethere's something to this like
(16:47):
outdoor thing.
And that was just a consistentexperience that I've had.
So anytime we, we activated sortof, you know, these experiential
capabilities or some sort ofcool execution or bad at home
that made the most impact thatgot picked up by, you know, news
outlets, potentially like brandswere talking about it.
(17:07):
So yeah, When the opportunity topivot to Ogilvy from Alamorati
came up, there were some optionslike, do I go broadcast?
Do I go traditional media, staywith some of the teams that were
going in that direction?
Or do I do this out-of-homething?
I'm like, it was Ogilvy.
Ogilvy was like a behemoth atthe time, really established
brand.
And it was like an out-of-homespecific role.
(17:29):
I was like, you know what?
I think based on what I'veexperienced, anytime I've done
out-of-home, I think this is thething to lean into.
And I...
You know, 20 plus years, I'venot, you know, haven't looked
back.
It's the right, it was the rightchoice.
I met all those people you, youknow, you riled off their names
before and still in touch withthem today.
It was just a beautifulfoundation for, I think, you
(17:52):
know, what this industry'sexperience is just like that.
Building something really cool,continuing to layer in
sophisticated capabilities.
Of course, those came later, butjust diving into it and owning
those experiences was like a tonof fun for me.
SPEAKER_02 (18:05):
Yeah.
And it's always been the people.
We talk about it all the time,whether it's investors that are
dived deep into or outsiderskind of better understanding
this space.
A lot of the tech folks, eventhe one you work for today,
there's a lot of curiositybehind it.
And one of the one things that Ialways mention, and I said it to
nauseam this past week up inBoston at our conference was,
(18:26):
it's the people.
The people that you and Iknow...
they're still in the space andthey're in the space for a
purpose.
It's not that they can't get ajob somewhere else.
Well, maybe a couple of them,but it's really because they're
passionate about it.
But I guess going back to your,your question and you being on
the agency side for so long,like, and still to this day,
(18:46):
like an out of home campaign isalways more impactful.
Like Coachella just ended acouple of months ago.
And it's like, that's thecampaigns that get spoken about
the most.
That's the viral aspect of it,you know?
And now I'll, you know, the roleof social and out of home
playing together, you know,Lamar owns a colossal media
handpain company and a bigportion of why they're
(19:08):
successful is that the viralitybehind a TikTok video, behind a
snap, behind an Instagram.
Why do you think still theindustry, I want to say
struggles, but doesn't get alarger fair share.
And it's kind of like to yourpoint back in the day, like
millions of dollars spent on TV.
And then it was like a hundredthousand was thrown out of home.
(19:30):
but the out of home had the mostimpact and conversation around
it.
And I know this is a questionthat you probably struggle with.
And I know I've struggled withfor the last 20 years.
Like why?
SPEAKER_01 (19:41):
Yeah, it's a head-scratcher for sure, I
think.
And I'm always surprised anddelighted by the fact that
anytime you put a celebrity on abillboard and then you show
their reaction to them seeing itfor the first time on Sunset or
wherever the street is, they'reawed by it.
They're like, oh my God, Ididn't realize how huge this
thing is.
(20:01):
Now, amazing.
There's something about it thatI don't know that we've ever
been able to truly put ourfinger on, but it's that kind of
reaction from even a celebrity.
They're everywhere.
They...
But that somehow speaks to thecharm that we have in our space.
So it's a great question.
I don't know that we've solvedwhy we aren't getting a larger
(20:21):
share.
I mean, it's always like, oh, wedon't have the right measurement
or we don't have this.
We actually have amazingmeasurement.
And I'm sure you've covered thisin the past.
But these are the things thatwe're out there talking about in
a major way.
I think we're starting to seegrowth and we're starting to
see...
We don't usually have a badmeeting.
It's just getting the meetingsometimes is the hardest part.
(20:42):
But just the fact that we canmeasure outcomes to the degree
that we just never had in thedays of McCarty and those other
opportunities, we just couldn'tprove out what we were doing.
Yes, we had a lot of talk valueon that platform and handing out
Maxwell's coffee or whatever itmight have been.
But the fact that we canactually prove we're exposed and
(21:04):
actually went to a place andtook an action.
These are things that we've beendoing for quite some time now.
And it's still a surprise tomany brand people that like, Oh,
you can do that.
You can be more full funnel,even in some cases, a
performance channel.
Like, so I'm confident that wewill get there.
I'm frustrated how long it'staken us to get even to this
(21:26):
point, but I'm super excitedabout the fact that we can
actually have that conversation.
Yeah.
Which is why, maybe why we'realso doing it because like, It
just gets better.
We have more to talk about.
So maybe we're all like, maybethis is going to be the year
where they finally realize
SPEAKER_02 (21:42):
the thing.
Well, and to your point, alwayssunny in Philadelphia, Charlie
day, one of the writers, heobviously was on main stage.
He's founded four walls, whichis an American Irish whiskey
brand, but he even said it on,on main stage.
He was like, if you have an outof home billboard, whether
you're a small company, largecompany or not, like out of home
proves that you've made it.
And I think the funniest thingthat he said, he goes, and he
(22:04):
was probably half, half joking,but probably serious is he said
when he read the script for afistfight, he was like, wait, I
know that they're going to haveto put billboards up and I get
to be on a billboard with icecube in LA.
And he was like, that was thecoolest thing.
So I had to point it's, it'salways so memorable and
everyone's talking about it.
SPEAKER_01 (22:23):
So, so we got that going for us, which is
SPEAKER_02 (22:25):
nice.
UNKNOWN (22:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (22:27):
And this is where you and I met each other.
So you began to run MediaVest,running their out-of-home
practice for 14 years.
Again, that's when you and Iconnected.
And to your point, I loved thattime.
And I think we're still there,but I think we're starting to
phase out of it because we'vesolidified that.
But I just remember, Norm, everytime you're like, hey, if you
ever...
(22:47):
And you said it in a very sternway, but like, hey, because we
need this.
And I'm sure it was every mediaowner that came through.
It was always like, hey, comein, bring us a...
the most outlandish, coolestidea.
And we may not hit that idea,but at least we know that those
capabilities.
And I just remember one of myfavorite agencies to prep for
(23:08):
it.
I'm not telling you this becauseyou're a very long industry
friend and that you're on thepodcast right now.
But I just remember you were oneof the most fun folks that I got
to present to because you alwayschallenged.
You're like, don't come in herewith like what your new
inventory is like.
That's fine.
Like I can get that on an email,but like come in.
And it's funny, our producer,Faith, who heads up our
marketing team, I'll pull upsome of my old decks, which side
(23:31):
note were, they were awful nowthat you look back at them.
But the ideas that folks and notjust Lamar, but others, Clear
Channel out front and all theother folks in the space, I
always appreciated that aboutyou because you were helping
challenge the industry to pushforward.
You were always saying like,hey, go find those tech
partners, right?
okay, you can stream livetweets.
(23:52):
We'll come in and tell us howHeineken can stream live tweets
for their fighter.
There's another liquor brandthat you represented, a
SPEAKER_01 (24:00):
beer brand.
Yeah, actually, there was a goodrun on Heineken too.
But I think that's our job.
We need to be able to...
Again, out of home generally hasgot a very limited exposure
within brands.
I used to When I was on theagency side, I always said the
good news is they don't knowwhat we do and the bad news is
they don't know what we do.
(24:20):
So at the CC level, when the CEOof an agency is talking to the
CEO of a major blue chip brandwithin our portfolio, are they
leaning in saying, oh, youreally need to get involved with
that at home?
And then I'm like, So they kindof left us to our own devices,
which was good because we canpush and innovate and do what we
have to do, but we weren'tgetting the exposure.
(24:41):
At the same time, they weren'tsaying, you know, you need to be
here and here's why.
So we were kind of left to ourown devices.
So we kind of never, we'realways kind of under the radar
and it was on us to challengeour partners to bring us ideas.
And because otherwise we're justgoing to show them photo sheets
of billboards and like, yeah,there's a great board on 995.
Like you should buy it.
(25:02):
It's great.
But like, that's not going toget anybody excited.
We need to understand like, whatcan you bring us about your
inventory and your markets orhow you're, you're, you know,
activating those units andespecially as they become
digital, that's when we got toknow each other.
Suddenly that opened up a widerange of creative possibilities.
You know, the production issuesused to be a bigger issue.
(25:24):
So that's no longer a point ofcontention.
It's like, no, let's leveragethis space in this bigger way.
And Lamar, to your credit, youblew out a ton of inventory
really, really quickly.
So I was able to start to scalethat story and help clients
understand the valueproposition.
So all those things got usbetter conversations with our
(25:46):
internal clients.
So we needed to to push, or atleast I felt I needed to push.
I challenged my team, like, thisis your job.
Take the meetings from ourpartners.
When your client actually asksyou, like, so what's new out
there?
And you don't have an answer.
like good luck getting another,another session with that, with
that person.
So if you're bringing ideaslike, Oh, we just met with this
cool partner and here's whatthey do.
(26:07):
And here's why it's great foryour brand.
And let us test it.
We have to do, we're doing thattoday.
We have to do that.
SPEAKER_02 (26:13):
Cause I'm going to ask you what, what's the, your
favorite campaign that youworked on it at media vest, but
I'm going to start with the mostbizarre pitch that I recall.
And I won't call the guy's nameout, but he was always the guy
in the back of the room that waslike, really?
Can we really do this?
So it allowed me to prepare evenmore.
And I know you know who I'mtalking about.
But I remember I pitched thisdog food brand that you guys
represented.
(26:34):
And I wanted to come in becauseI was like, I needed to make
Norm proud.
So I had my creative team mockup a billboard with this dog
brand.
And it was underneath.
We turned it into a pop-up dogshop.
And then somehow I met with thisRFID technology company that I
was like, okay, under the board,you're going to tap your phone
with your dog, take a picture.
It's going to stream live to thedigital.
(26:55):
But then the RFID is going todrop out a sample of that dog
treat.
And I just never, I'll neverforget.
I still have that deck.
And I remember the guy in theback of the room was like, so
can you tell me specifically howthat RFID would trigger?
And it was just like thecomplexities and the questions
that were asked.
And I'm like, dude, this wasjust a wild idea.
(27:16):
But
SPEAKER_01 (27:17):
how about you?
I mean, let's see.
The one that comes to mind forme was actually just a single
execution on one billboard.
It was for Yahoo Personals.
We actually posted a live datewith two physical people on a
billboard having a date.
(27:37):
And it was streamed live.
And the entire team, I remember,was over the course of the day
watching this date on thebrand's website.
And I think...
The fact that you can do that,and I think that also, for me,
made that digital connection.
While it wasn't a digital board,it was a digital-first brand
(27:58):
that recognized the power ofphysical location and what that
experience could be, and makingthat go viral, as viral as
things could go back then.
But the fact that people couldlive watch this experience, and
just also the logistics aroundit, the insurance and
capabilities and all the thingsand how do we physically get
(28:20):
people up there and do it safelyand permits and all that fun
stuff was, I think, part of alsothe out-of-home allure is if you
didn't quite know how to do it,just talk to the out-of-home
team.
They've got a guy.
They'll figure it out.
I joke a lot like, oh, I got aguy.
We just pick up the phone at thetime.
(28:40):
We pick up the phone now.
whatever we're picking up andconnecting, but it's solving
problems.
I think out of home, becauseit's not just the billboard,
it's not just the bus shelter,it's an experience, it's
everything in between.
There's some way to do somethingthat's going to have people stop
and take notice and experienceand engage.
I think more so than maybe anyother format that's out there
(29:03):
today.
So that one's the one thatstands out.
But then there's some of theones, like we talked about
Heineken, that we were able towrap entire construction bridges
and just the sheer scale of someof the things you can do and
just taking over cities, alsojust awesome.
And when you have competingbrand managers seeing that and
hearing through the grapevinehow pissed they were that they
(29:26):
didn't get that, you knew youdid your job right.
So I think those types ofthings, whether it's a single
execution that got a top play tojust saturating an important
city and everywhere you turn.
And actually, that wasanother...
I'll name one other one back inthe Continental Airlines days.
We used to, like six months ofthe year, New York was just
continental blue.
(29:47):
And the creator was incredibleon that because they literally
had, I don't know, hundreds oftaglines.
So it didn't become bluewallpaper.
Actually, people would sort ofget conditioned to like, oh,
there's another sort of fun,maybe playful New York-y thing
or playing off the destinationsthat they would fly to.
So things like that, especiallywhen you're, again, close to the
creative process, I think wasreally impactful.
SPEAKER_02 (30:08):
Yeah.
And that's the fun part, right?
The simplicity behind it is, isit's a, it's a blank canvas that
you could tell a story onvisually.
And I think that's the othercool thing that in my opinion is
as social media hassignificantly become a part of
our lives.
I mean, there's a reason why,you know, psychologists tell you
to turn your phone to grayscale.
If you want to stop scrolling,doom scrolling, right.
(30:30):
Is because we're visual humansand you love seeing things and
you know, nothing's better thanan out of home campaign,
regardless of the media type.
So in true norm fashion, notonly are you evolving and better
understanding the media and theout-of-home industry and kind of
evolving it through your teamsand through yourself
specifically, you see thewriting on the wall where the
(30:52):
evolution is coming withprogrammatic.
And you started last year,January of 2024, with a little
company called Hivestack.
Touch on that, like where thepivot came in.
SPEAKER_01 (31:03):
Yeah, I mean, so my pivot away from just traditional
agency side of the business intothe dark side of sales, I wish I
did it sooner because I love it.
But it's been about five or sixyears now that I did that.
When I went into a programmaticstartup then, and I realized
there was a short little windowwhere I was doing some
independent sales, you know,media owners were like, hey, I
(31:24):
hear you are maybe selling now.
I'm like, yeah, I'm kind of likebuilding up a thing.
And I realized it was fun beingthe guy bringing the cookies to
the meetings.
I was like, this is fun, right?
And many of the people that Iwas calling on were people that
I've worked with over the years.
And so I kind of decided thisis, I think, the path forward.
And then, of course, you know,just before, I also realized
(31:45):
like, hey, health insurance iskind of expensive.
I probably need to, and like, soan opportunity came in to
actually go to a formal companyand build a practice is for
out-of-home in the programmaticspace.
So I pivoted to that.
Thankfully, because then COVIDhappened and the world went
sideways, but I was at anestablished place in a track
(32:05):
that was, I think, the futureand has been the future for how
we transact in the out-of-homemarketplaces.
on programmatically and usingaudiences and data and being
able to measure outcomes.
And so all of these things wereboxes I was able to check that
were exciting that I wish I hadback in the day.
So really enjoying the fact thatwe can go meet with our agency
(32:26):
partners, talk to Blue Chipclients and all the way down to
the mom and pop local storeowners and say, you know, We
know where your audiences are.
We know how often they visit XYZlocation.
We actually know this screen isgoing to do better than that
screen.
So being able to be empoweredusing data and tools and
technology that we just neverhad before was super exciting.
(32:48):
So I think that's when I justdoubled down on it.
And I said, this is definitelywhere we're going.
To be able to be on theforefront of how we transact and
still work with all the samecartoon characters and people
that I've come to know and loveall the years just seem like a
no-brainer.
And so, you know, about a yearand four or five months ago, I
(33:09):
joined HiveStack, which was atthe time just acquired by
Pariano, a technology companythat sort of focuses on, you
know, really unique solutionsfor agencies, brands, retailers
as well.
There was also over the lasthowever many years, retail media
is starting to become a bigthing and understanding shopping
behaviors.
And again, data-driven, whetherit's first party data to all the
(33:32):
different audiences that you cantap into from a variety of
different places and being ableto tie that back to physical
locations.
You can tell a story around it.
That was just like, oh my God,this is amazing.
Especially with COVID, it was aninteresting period of time
because consumer behaviorshifted.
How people shop, where they wentsuddenly was a complete change.
(33:53):
sort of pivot away from anythingthat we knew.
So being able to actually show aclient, well, you know that they
maybe aren't going to certainvenue types anymore, but they're
going to a grocery store, aC-store, stocking up for their
families and having, showingthat movement in real time was
just like, all right, this isthe way we need to power our
decision.
So yeah, that's what we've beendoing at HiveSac now for the
(34:15):
time that I've been here is thevisualizations of how how people
move in relation to physicalinventory and building plans
that are based on what'sobserved behavior and the
measuring.
It's an end-to-end perfect storyfrom my perspective.
SPEAKER_02 (34:32):
Yeah, and it's what the three powerful pillars of
out-of-home.
It's location, it's audience,and it's creative.
And the ability to utilizetechnology to have all three of
those work simultaneously inreal time.
Again, creative triggering basedoff of whatever the KPIs,
whether it's weather, whetherit's moments in time, and then
(34:53):
that first or third party datato better understand.
I'm with you.
I think out of home is finallystarting to get the recognition
and it had to have takentechnology to evolve to open it
up.
And now, and we'll go into thisa little bit in more depth, but
now it's like, okay, so how dowe do the same thing for static?
And I think that's where thePandora's box just becomes...
(35:18):
open for the Atom Home Space towhere you see a lot of these
digital shops.
But before we get, we dive deepinto that, give our listeners
just a very high level, youknow, everyone loves high stack.
They love the beautiful pink,Andres Suplianis, who's a dear
friend of mine.
Thank God, I'm so happy for him.
If he's listening, I hope he is,that he finally retired and gets
(35:38):
to take a moment.
But we both know Andres and he'sprobably not, he's probably
coming up with something elsebizarre today.
in another industry.
But give our listeners a littlebit more about Perion and why
it's so important.
I'm excited about it because Iknow what they bring to the
table.
But give our listeners just avery high level why that's so
important and why thatacquisition meant so much more
(35:59):
to your point, the retail mediaside.
SPEAKER_01 (36:02):
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, Maybe a little
over a year ago.
I don't know how familiar atleast the US marketplace was
with Perion, but they've beenout there for years as a
technology company, but thefocus was more on the sub-brand.
So they acquired HiveStack,which they recognized from a
platform perspective and fromwhat we were doing from a
leading industry andprogrammatic digital at home,
(36:23):
and not just in the US, 39markets now.
So that part is huge, probablythe largest, I believe, in the
space.
So with physical people andintelligence in all those local
markets.
So that part was a big sort ofattractive capability from a
broader paradigm perspective,but then undertone who's been
around for many, many years andcreating high-impact creative,
(36:46):
strong in the CTV space, andthen other brands like Codefuel
and Betazilic, they recognizedthat we were operating sort of
separately from we were startingto tap into each other and
pulling in different solutionsas we needed.
But, you know, the power ofhaving one brand, one entity,
with all those capabilitiesrolled up into, you know, one
(37:07):
single source solution, I thinkis where we're heading as an
organization.
So it was formalized as, youknow, where the individual
brands were no longertechnically in existence.
We get to keep some of the pink,the subtle pink, which is nice.
But, you know, we are oneorganization focused on, you
know, tech-forward,insights-driven.
(37:27):
AI, of course, can be a part ofit.
So being able to leverage uniqueinsights, creative tools.
I mean, Undertone Forever isknown for its creative strength
and capability, not only in theCTV space, but broadly speaking.
So being able to have that andnow apply that to out of home.
So whether it's DCO, which is ahuge area for us, being able to,
whether it's weather triggersand pollen count things to live
(37:50):
sports scores and all theversioning that a brand has to
do.
Sometimes it's, it's physically,um, Just resource-wise,
challenging for them to executethose types of things.
So being able to have thatresource readily available,
solve those problems, be theeasy button for brands,
agencies, and retailers alike totake a more sophisticated
approach to connecting withconsumers, I think is what
(38:13):
you're going to see really shinefrom Parian in the coming months
and years ahead.
SPEAKER_02 (38:18):
Yeah.
How about the irony that youstarted your career across
multiple media outlets?
And then here you are today,back into the multimedia facet.
I love it.
SPEAKER_01 (38:28):
Yeah, I mean, it's, I think, inevitable.
I think I love the fact thateven...
you know, having closerconnections to the creative side
of things is also kind of comingfull circle because media and
creative sort of split apart andnow we're finding a much more
success with things coming maybeback together and we're being
closer to that process to tell astronger story.
(38:48):
But, you know, we are stillfirst and foremost, Point
Solution, Digital Home, that'sthe platform.
But I think because of the factthat our former sister company,
now part of the VSA Marbella,has such a strong hold on the
CTV marketplace and that'sdefinitely a high-profile area
for brands now.
I can have a broaderconversation with the folks who
(39:10):
are activating digital at home,and if they're now able to tap
into CTV dollars that maybe wantto have additional scale on the
digital at home side, becausethere are networks now that
maybe work with some of therequirements and vast tags and
different things that the CTVspace uses.
I can bring in my partner fromthat side of the house and maybe
(39:31):
have a more rich conversationversus just that one solution.
So it's exciting to be able tooffer up other things as we
understand what marketers arelooking for.
But at the end of the day, it'san at-home solution, at least at
this point.
I don't know that we're goingomni-channel anytime soon.
But the technology is there, andI think clients are reacting to
(39:53):
the fact that we can simplify...
that whole conversation more sothan we ever could before.
SPEAKER_02 (39:59):
Yeah.
And you and I've discussed this,but it's interesting that again,
out of home being that darling,you know, some, some of your
counterparts within, within thebroader company have started to
become very interested.
Like, and I think that's, that'swhere, in my opinion, where
Norm's seen such success isyou've always looked at this as
a larger, a larger picture.
(40:19):
You know, if we take our out ofhome hats off, if we take our
digital marketing advertisershats, like, we as consumers, we
really don't care where that adserved or where it came from.
It's like, talk to me at theright point in my day and my
journey.
And it may be CTV ad on myphone.
It may be an out of home screen.
It may be the back of a, of aUber, whatever it may be.
(40:41):
It's like, talk to me to thatmoment.
So the, The last half here, whatI really want to dive deep into
is, you know, again, you and Ihave lived through this, both on
the agency side and thepublisher side.
But the evolution of theadvertising agency, specifically
out of home, I mean, you'vemanaged a team for 14 plus
years.
How has technology evolvinghelped you?
(41:04):
And where do you see thespecialist playing a role in
this space?
And then also, how are wecapturing new digital brands,
new digital agencies into thespace?
Because it's this like delicatebalance.
It's almost like when you inviteyour friends over and then you
invite like your baseballfriends over and you're like, I
hope you guys all get along.
SPEAKER_01 (41:23):
Yeah, there's definitely sometimes can be this
little awkward thing.
But at the end of the day,everyone's excited to make these
new connections, right?
And, you know, coming from aspecialist role, and we are
still very much in a specialistarea.
And I used to cringe when theysaid, well, you know, three
years specialist are going to begone.
And like, this is I've heardthis like nine years ago, I feel
(41:45):
like so.
the specialist brings immensevalue because this is still an
incredibly complex space, right?
So being able to understand, youknow, in this market, I need
this media owner and thatscreen, and I'm going to pepper
in these, like, there's nothinglike it.
So you have to have experts inthe space.
But how are you going to deploythose experts?
What are you going to arm themwith is, I think, Maybe what's
(42:08):
keeping them so valued is thefact that we are now empowering
them with audiences, anaudience-based conversation
versus strictly a real estateconversation.
I think we've alwayshistorically been a real
estate-driven solution.
I want to be across the streetfrom XYZ headquarters.
I want to be in a hip and trendyneighborhood.
And we can do that all day long.
It's still a strength of ourindustry.
(42:31):
But to be able to say, I want toreach...
Haircare purchasers, where isthat person and how do we find
them?
And that comes back to anincredibly fast-growing space
for our industry is CPG andretail.
They are not historicallyactivating out of home.
(42:51):
But if you can go to aspecialist agency and give them
tools and purchase behaviors andall sorts of audience data to
say, we've seen these peoplepurchase XYZ haircare products.
product and we know that notonly are they physically in the
store or in the in the parkinglot but there's a billboard 10
miles away that we know is goingto reach a hair care purchaser
(43:12):
because we've seen that behaviorwe've seen using mobile device
data using you knowunderstanding traffic patterns
and movement and visitation youstart to connect all those
pieces and you empower yourspecialist agency to go into a
dashboard or to a platform youknow like formerly known as
HiveStack, now Perion, andactually put in their audiences,
(43:34):
see heat maps, deliverimpressions based on when we see
those impressions at the bestpoints in time throughout those
days, and then understand whatare they doing after being
exposed.
And then also...
Extending that to not just anout-of-home-only conversation,
but if their brands are workingwith omni-channel platforms like
the Trade Desk or DB360, well,we can connect to those.
(43:57):
And we aren't in the silo.
We can push that super-rich,sophisticated, precision-based
targeting, but at scale.
into those omni-channelsolutions and measure all the
other things that you're doingand how that will be part of
that conversation.
I think that's why we're stillin the game.
That's why we're still lovingwhat we do because we're giving
them these tools to have a moreinformed conversation versus
(44:20):
that little silo, like, here'syour 100K.
As great as it is, we have somemoney left over.
Now we're actually part of thebrief, part of the, here's your
audience, find those people forus.
SPEAKER_02 (44:31):
Yeah.
And it's, you know, obviouslycreating those efficiencies are
massive and one thing for thebuying tools, but the ability to
overlay to your point, the, theaudience data is everything that
we've been saying, you know,cause remember back in the day
it was like, Hey, three to fivemiles from big box retailer X
and you and I both know, uh, Weall travel significantly
(44:52):
different.
And you were always saying like,yeah, but this board over here.
And it's like, well, there's nodata back then.
There's no data to prove thatout.
So I just can't be a part of thebuy.
But I also think there's a lotof fun to your point where if
you think a lot of these brands,it goes much further.
The big buzzword right now isculturally relevant moments or
(45:14):
conditional moments where...
hey, let's light up a wholemarket because outcome X have
happened.
And now you're starting to notonly talk about the platforms,
the data, but again, thatcreative ability to trigger and
have buys turn off and on in amuch larger scale becomes
significantly more importantthat our brands are starting to
recognize and digital agenciesare saying like, okay, we need
(45:38):
to take this medium even moreserious than ever because not
only do they play in our spaceand we're connected, but but
also it can do some really coolshit that we can't do in any
other media at that speed andpace.
SPEAKER_01 (45:50):
Yeah.
And the fact that we're havingan audience first conversation
allows us to, obviously like ourbread and butter is our
specialist agency.
So we know the value of eachindividual placement, but then
we can have a similarconversation with a digital team
who maybe doesn't know thedifference between Lamar, Deco,
Clear, or whoever, Mama PopOutdoor.
(46:10):
They just know I'm trying toreach somebody who, exhibits a
certain behavior and does acertain purchase pattern.
So the fact that we can now havethat discussion with them and be
in their platform and build apool of inventory that
accomplishes a specificobjective, depending on what
their KPIs are, that's also aconversation that I'm super
(46:32):
excited about.
How do we, one, empower ourspecialists, but then also just
talk to other teams who maybewouldn't have thought about a
home as a solution?
but yeah, all our inventoriesthere.
You want to see movement datahere.
Here it is.
It's a very differentconversation.
It's very different pitch.
Like they're, they're not, it'sless about publisher specific or
specific media types.
(46:52):
It's just audiences versusspecialists.
So like, all right, who are webuying from and where is the
screen and show me like, sowe're, we're set up for any one
of those conversations and aresuccessful in any one of those
conversations.
SPEAKER_02 (47:06):
Yeah.
And I, I think as we, continueto evolve and we continue to
recognize the importance ofplatforms, the importance of
data.
I've always said this to one ofyour other partners.
It's like, there's a significantamount of world beyond just
digital that exists in theout-of-home space that if we can
automate this side of the houseand introduce digital agencies,
(47:27):
create more efficient for thesespecialists, then now we start
to truly emerge as a powerfulmedium and looked upon as as one
one medium not individual youknow partners or publishers or
screen types and then obviouslythere's the importance of the
specialists is also to scrub alot of these screens and it's
like yeah no way would that everend up on my brief like yes the
(47:50):
data may show it but like let'slook at quality of screens and
you know that's a whole anotherhour and a half long
conversation with you for sure
SPEAKER_01 (47:58):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think we're also seeingthe same thing on the retail
media side too.
Being able to show that it's notjust about the screens in their
stores.
Effectively, you can light upany screen, however, 500,000,
600,000 screens nationwide,however close they are to their
stores or not, but using theirfirst party data to actually
find their consumers.
And it's not just the screen inthe aisle.
(48:22):
You can have a much bigger storymiles away and have it all their
fingertips like that part'sreally interesting um for us to
be empowering that side of ourindustry too so yeah
SPEAKER_02 (48:33):
look i'm i'm beyond excited you and i can talk for
hours i i know that whenever ifyou recall the conversation you
and i had probably about threeor four years ago when you
started poking around in theprogrammatic space and i i
remember shooting you a text orcalling you and saying like norm
i am so excited that you're hereBecause the breadth of knowledge
that you bring, the experiencethat you bring, but also more
(48:54):
importantly, your mind and theway that you think, it's almost
like you're never comfortable.
And I think that's the best typeof people that you want in the
out-of-home space and moreimportantly, on the technology
side.
SPEAKER_01 (49:05):
No, I appreciate that.
I do say you have to becomfortable with being
uncomfortable because as alegacy out-of-home guy, I'm in a
space sometimes that theconversations are...
have nothing to do with thebillboard.
It's about pushing an audiencesegment into an S3 bucket.
At first, I'm like, where's thisbucket that everybody keeps
talking about?
You realize, all right, that'sthis.
(49:25):
You start to make theseconnections, but you realize
it's bigger than just out ofhome.
It's using technology in a wayto solve a problem we never had
access to, being moresophisticated about it, being
accountable.
I think that's one thing, too,is how do we prove to a client
that, all right, leveraging thisgroup of assets in this way,
(49:46):
allows you to have XYZ outcomeand being able to be transparent
about it.
Really send them a list withevery little line item detail
that they would want so thatthey know that we're accountable
for everything on this list andwe're going to deliver against
this exact list and it'sapproved and you're going to see
it ahead of time.
Like all these things, there'sno black box with us.
I think that's important.
We want to make sure that, youknow, clients feel comfortable
(50:09):
about the investments thatthey're making and then being
able to prove that out for themis critical.
SPEAKER_02 (50:13):
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, and no chance was I notgoing to let you get off this
podcast about talking aboutbeing a professional mime as a
kid.
SPEAKER_01 (50:21):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_02 (50:21):
I figured
SPEAKER_01 (50:22):
maybe the time would run out, but to your credit, you
built in a little cushion.
So yeah, I mean, literally, itwas a period of time where I was
the only...
kid.
I was like nine years old, Ithink.
I did it for two or three yearsin an adult pantomime troupe
that performed all over thetri-state area in schools and
churches and theaters.
I actually got paid for it.
I actually asked my mother wherethat money went.
(50:46):
But it was an interestingexperience just from a
confidence perspective.
At least not many lines becauseobviously it's being a mime.
But to be able to tell a storythrough just and be part of, you
know, like some artisticmovement form to it, it was
(51:06):
great.
And obviously not your typicalactivity for a kid.
I mean, I did all the usualstuff and swim teams and Little
League and all the differentthings.
But I think it did shape me insome ways to, one, maybe be
comfortable in an uncomfortablesituation because, one, I was
also the only kid and surroundedby adults performing all over
the city.
And that probably, looking backon it, probably did help to some
(51:29):
degree with pushing myself intospaces that maybe...
You know, you have to go to, butsometimes you're hesitant to do.
And so, yeah, that was a littlefun.
There's some pictures floatingaround, which maybe, you know,
over a Heineken one day.
But it was definitely a funlittle childhood memory.
And one that, you know, wheneveryone's like, tell us a
(51:51):
couple of unknown things aboutyourself.
Usually that's where I gobecause, you know, how many
other minds have you run into inyour life?
Yeah, zero.
This is the first.
I've known you for almost 18years and I never knew you.
Great party trick too, so...
It's true.
Every now and then there's alittle something I'll put out
there and get a chuckle.
(52:11):
So yeah, it's fun.
SPEAKER_02 (52:13):
I love it.
Well, listen, my friend, it'salways a pleasure.
Like I'd mentioned, it's fun tobe in this space with you and
I'm glad you're here and enjoyour friendship.
And I know our listeners, a lotof which know you and a lot of
which don't.
So again, let's continue to beuncomfortable together.
SPEAKER_01 (52:28):
I like it.
I appreciate the opportunity tohave the conversation today.
I cherish our friendship andlooking forward to the years
ahead I think there's so muchmore we can do industry-wide and
as partners.
So we'd love to continue to beuncomfortable, but in a good
way, knowing that we're tryingto do the right thing for our
partners and our agencies andour brands.
I think that's what they lean onus for.
(52:49):
So excited to do that togetherwith
SPEAKER_02 (52:51):
you.
That's
SPEAKER_01 (52:51):
key.
All right.
Thanks, my friend.
All the best.
SPEAKER_02 (52:57):
Thanks for listening to this episode of Digital&
Dirt.
Don't forget to subscribe andleave a review on Spotify or
Apple podcasts.
Follow us on social media forthe latest updates and stay
tuned for our next episode.
I'm Ian Delamore, and this is Digital& Dirt.
SPEAKER_01 (00:10):
I appreciate adult beverage, but yeah, there's
obviously everything inmoderation, but it's just funny
that, and this wasn't by design,but my ex-kid, I was at a small
shop, I worked on a variety ofdifferent distilled spirits.
SPEAKER_02 (00:22):
Coachella just ended a couple of months ago, and it's
like, that's the campaigns thatget spoken about the most.
That's the viral aspect of it.
SPEAKER_01 (00:32):
and you start to make these connections, but you
realize it's bigger than justhow to pump.
It's using technology in a wayto solve a problem we never had
access to.
SPEAKER_02 (00:49):
back guys my next guest this is gonna be fun i've
known him for a very long timeso we'll have a lot of fun
stories to tell he proposed tohis wife on a billboard and she
said yes so that's how we knowout of home works i think we
should build a case study ithink that'd be brilliant he
loves to cook he almost chose togo to culinary school instead of
out of home he loves to travelwhich obviously travel equals
(01:10):
great food and he used to be aprofessional mime as a kid And
he doesn't want to go there, butwe will.
My good friend, VP of USMarketplace at Perion, Norm
Chait.
Good to see you.
Likewise.
Nice to be here, Ian.
Thank you very much.
We've known each other for howlong?
I remember my first pitch ever,and we're going to go into your
journey, but I remember my firstpitch ever to your star-studded
(01:33):
all-star team, if you think backon that team.
And a lot of them are still inthe space, but walking into that
room, seeing you, Norm, and itwas just kind of like, all
right, Norm's the easy one.
I got Keith Klein in the back.
I got Sarah Teachout.
Just throw some shout outsthere.
I got Beth.
So, I mean, how much fun wasthat?
SPEAKER_01 (01:54):
Yeah, I mean, that was definitely the heyday.
I mean, the good news is we'restill having fun.
I think this is, you alluded tothis, you know, our connection
being, you know, as long as ithas probably 20 plus years, I
think that's not counting.
At 20, probably safer for me todo that.
But absolutely, it was just tonsof fun.
I think we were...
Not that we were pioneers, but Ifeel like we were on this sort
(02:15):
of cusp of trying to elevate theout-of-home story every single
day, feeling the struggle everysingle day because we're like,
how do we get to the big boytable?
How do we get bigger budgets?
How do we just...
illustrate the excitement thatwe all had, the passion that we
all had to clients and agenciesthat we're working with and blue
(02:37):
chip brands who were starting topoke at it.
And obviously people have beenusing it forever and ever, all
this form of advertising outthere, but we always kind of
felt like, you know, theafterthought.
So we had this really greatgroup of folks, this fun team
who love working together.
I think that was sort of thethread that just was always
unbroken.
And it is to this day, like wesee each other 20 plus years
(02:58):
later and we pick up right wherewe left off and we're remember
those late nights.
And God, when I started, I hadto go to a computer room to
actually build a flow chart.
And hopefully somebody, youknow, there was one available
that was like, all right, I'llcome back later.
Now that's just hard to evenfathom, but a lot of fun, but
still having fun.
So hence why we're still doingit.
SPEAKER_02 (03:18):
Yeah.
We're going to go deeper intothat conversation when we get to
that point in the journey forsure.
But you proposed to your wifeand I've known this story, but
what, how did your wife takethat?
Cause I know my wife, I'll neverforget this moment, but LSU was
in the national championship andwe were like walking in.
And for some reason there waslike a concert that happened.
And then this guy in thissection like got down on one
(03:38):
knee.
And I just remember my wifesaying, if you ever propose to
me that way, like it's a hardno.
And like our relationship'sover.
So you took it to a whole notherlevel and dropped it off the
board.
UNKNOWN (03:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (03:50):
I made it public for sure, you know, and probably one
of the largest stages in theworld.
I mean, that wasn't directly inthe heart of Times Square.
It was just off of Times Square,obviously, 42nd and 9th, I
believe it was.
So just just off.
And I mean, so a ton, a ton ofpeople.
She thought we're going todinner with friends.
And, you know, I had this thingposted the day or two before.
(04:12):
And, you know, at first shethought we're making a turn in
the corner.
I was like, hey, did you eversee one of these before?
And as she left off, I sounded,I dropped it on me.
And that's coming up on20-something years later, too.
Not that I stopped counting to20, but I start to forget after
20 how many years it's been.
So it's definitely a case studyfor out of home.
(04:34):
It was a beautiful moment.
I love that.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_02 (04:36):
my wife and I actually just celebrated our
18th anniversary.
anniversary yesterday, wheneverthis podcast drops.
Yeah, for sure.
My mother's day and all that.
So yeah.
And I see that big sharing ofthe holiday.
All right.
We're going to save the lastbullet point for the end for
sure.
So you're not getting out ofthat one.
Let's talk about your journey.
So majored in marketing andadvertising and you got an
(04:57):
internship.
Tell us about that.
Tell us where the passion beganto kind of evolve into why Norm
is who he is.
SPEAKER_01 (05:05):
Yeah, I appreciate that.
It was definitely...
As I was going through businessschool, I think the one thing
that I kept gravitating towardswere the advertising and
marketing side of that business.
And just really enjoyed howmarketers tell stories, how they
connect with consumers.
And at the time, it wasn't anAdam Holmes-specific track.
(05:27):
It was more so just like, how dowe excite people about brands
and make those connections?
And the...
at Baruch, which is where Istudied here in New York City.
They had really comprehensivemarketing programs.
We actually were writing our owncommercials and actually
shooting them in studios.
It was a really nice immersioninto that space.
(05:48):
I just continued to find it.
This was something I reallyenjoyed and was passionate
about.
I was able to actually get aninternship at the time.
It was Bakersfield Local Bates,which evolved to lots of
different iterations over theyears, but landed an internship
on the Millard genuine draftaccount.
So imagine how excited I was inmy college years to be on a
(06:09):
major beer brand.
And they were literally closetsfull of cases of beer that we
wanted to make sure weunderstood the product.
Yeah, of course.
That part was very convenient.
And working with 20-somethingswho at the time were like, who
are these adults who arebuilding all these crazy plans?
And I'm just this kid whodoesn't you know, what I was
(06:30):
doing.
But I quickly learned that, youknow, just how to find
consumers, how to connect withthem, how to tell those stories,
and actually being closer to thecreative too, because at the
time, creative agencies andmedia agencies were very closely
linked.
So being able to see the entirethread was a really strong
learning experience for me.
And also, in some ways, being abit of a focus group for them,
(06:51):
because I was sort of thetarget.
So they would have these...
designations for different typeof drinkers, you know, A, B, C,
and D.
And, you know, an A drinker ismaybe a couple of beers a week
and all the way through D whereyou do a case a week.
You know, and salespeople wouldcome in and meet with our
supervisors and planners andthey would walk them through
(07:12):
this categorization.
And when they got to the Dcategory, they're like, how does
somebody do a case a week?
And they would call me in like,all right, here's Norm.
Okay.
Let him walk you through.
I explained they, they didn'tget the gig, but they were
definitely part of thecontributing, be drinking, you
know, team.
(07:33):
But when you break it down dayby day, and then Thursday,
Friday, Saturday rolls aroundand got with the boys, like next
thing you know, you, Pretty muchkilled it.
Okay.
So it was fun to be living thebrand while actually working on
it.
And then from there, I realizedthat that actually turned into a
real gig after my internship,which is why I always encourage
my boys to get thoseinternships.
(07:53):
This is a great way to get inand start to understand what
you're passionate about and makethose connections, learn
something along the way, andbuild on it for your future.
So that's how it all started.
And then we moved on to othershops, other places.
SPEAKER_02 (08:06):
Yeah.
And such a great opportunity tolike, obviously my journey is
all over the place as far asinternships worked at a beach
and water park, like five-starresort, then worked in, in
baseball for the Braves.
And it really, to your point,like for our young, you and I
are, well, I'll say I'm old, butI'm older.
Yeah.
So I encourage it all the time.
Like go out there, like get, getsome wild internships, figure it
(08:30):
out because you know, nothing'sworse than you go get your first
job and you're like, this isawful.
Yeah.
But in your case, you trulyfound your passion and kind of
the uniqueness that is the adspace.
It's also it'll suck you in.
And you're like, you know, ifyou wanted to go off to med
school or become a lawyer, it'slike, don't get into the ad
industry because you will getsucked in because it's so much
fun.
(08:50):
And I love that because you'reyou got to be at the pulse.
And, you know, so when you yournext phase, it's kind of like a
theme here, Norm.
And I know you say you're not a
SPEAKER_01 (09:01):
raging alcoholic.
No, I appreciate an adultbeverage.
But yeah, there's obviouslyeverything in moderation.
But it's just funny that, andthis wasn't by design, but my
next gig, I was at a small shop.
I worked on a variety ofdifferent distilled spirits,
Johnny Walker brands, simplemalt scotches.
So there is a little bit of atheme going on or like this is
just sort of fortuitous the wayit worked, but also a little
(09:22):
more challenging to sample thatat the level that maybe...
we were experiencing the Millerbrands at the time, but
definitely helped me understandmaybe a more refined palette for
different target audiences,different set of media that you
would have to apply.
So like that was actuallyinteresting for me is, you know,
while it's a similar category,there's definitely different
approaches and you have to justkind of pivot to understand
(09:44):
where you're going to make thoseconnections and, you know,
resonate with your coreconsumers.
But yeah, there definitely was atheme, I think, after that.
And of course, there were someother brands and insurance
brands, but, you know, Everyoneneeds insurance, but how
exciting is that to talk about,really, as compared to the soul
spirits and field testing andall the things that we used to
do?
And then from there, I pivotedto Amirati Pure Swing Tests on
(10:06):
the McCarty account.
So yes, there is definitely abit of a theme, but also a
very...
Different type of brands with alot of history, you know, and it
was interesting to see that asmuch as like the distilled
spirits category was evolvingand all those super premium
latkes were coming out andAbsolute was on the back cover
of every single magazine, youknow, parties were...
Yeah, I mean, it just, you know,was that was really the heyday.
(10:30):
And I was on a very print heavybusiness because broadcast was
off the table for brands inthose categories.
So heavy, heavy print and tryingto, you know, fight for those
back covers with, you know, whenthere were locked positions with
brands like Absolute.
So being able to build that overa few years on that business was
(10:53):
another sort of evolution oflike, how do we create a
dominant presence in theadvertising world.
And the mailroom guys used toliterally every day roll up with
dollies of checking copies ofmagazines.
And so I was almost buried bymagazines because we were just
in every single publication youcan imagine.
But again, that was anotherpivot to understand.
(11:13):
In that time, in a very superpremium vodka generation, how
does a brand like Bacardi breakthrough?
And playing that premium...
you know, still spirit category.
So that was another fun, funstint.
But again, never really, like wedid some out of home there.
I know getting to the out ofhome phase of the career.
SPEAKER_02 (11:36):
And to jump in there, we, a great episode, if
you folks want to go back andlisten, but Sophie Kelly, who
was a CMO of Diageo, phenomenal.
And I, you know, all jokingaside, like Miller, you know,
Johnny Walker, Bacardi, likeespecially the first two were, I
think that's the fun part aboutbeing on an account and you
working across all facets, notjust out of home, but the
(11:58):
multimedia is there's a storybehind it, right?
There's a history behind whereit was founded.
How did it start?
Where is it distilled?
What is the family historybehind it?
So I think oftentimes, that'sthe fun part about advertising.
Like, yes, Absolute had...
And side note, that's actuallyhow I ended up fallen in love
(12:20):
with out of home is all thosemagazines that you used to have.
I used to, my brother and Iwould cut them out and like
paste them around our room, tapethem up.
And then we were almost likemodern day bill posters at the
time is we would like removethem.
And every time absolute wouldput one of those amazing, you
know, back of the magazine ads,but it's, it, it is fun to be
(12:41):
able to kind of take a briefthat has so much history in it.
I mean, you and I just got backfrom our industry conference and
I'll let you kind of tell thestory, but you know, well-known
celebrity from, you know, alwayssunny in Philadelphia started
this whiskey rye brand andthat's a fun story.
So the, so touch on that a bit,like the being able to work
(13:03):
across all media types early inyour career while getting these
very historical briefsoftentimes.
SPEAKER_01 (13:10):
Yeah.
I mean, I think having that as afoundation was definitely very
valuable because as I,eventually pivoted into much
more of a focus in and out ofhome.
Like having that foundation wasreally valuable to me because I
was able to understand whenplans were being built, you
know, what was the rationale,what was getting priority, where
(13:31):
were the dollars going and whatwas the thought process behind
that.
So having that insight, evenwhen I was then, you know,
really diving into a morespecific track around out of
home allowed me to tell thatstory that much better and
really figuring out where doesthat piece fit.
So knowing that there aredifferent modeling techniques
(13:53):
and solutions that brands areleaning on to understand how to
make those connections, figuringout do we have the right inputs
to have a holistic view of acampaign, factoring in what we
know about those brands, theirhistory, who they appeal to the
most, and finding those rightmoments.
You know, everything has aplace.
So being able to figure outwhere each touch point can live,
(14:17):
sometimes challenging, but alsobeing able to have that
perspective, because I thinksometimes, you know, when we
still see it, there's still verysiloed approaches to a lot of
media decisions.
So, you know, in those years,even being close to the creative
process was incredibly valuable.
The media team was actuallyinvited to the creative pitches
and the storyboard sessions,because we can actually see, you
(14:39):
know, the reactions of brandteams and where they see their
brands and who their corecustomers are and how they want
to speak to them.
So that how we speak to thempiece translates to, is it a
radio spot?
Is it a back cover of a fashionmagazine?
Is it a high-profile spectacularin Times Square or somewhere on
somebody's journey?
(15:00):
And sometimes it's all of theabove, but being able to
understand the role that eachchannel plays I think it's
something that I was privilegedto be a part of and then take
that learning into a much morefocused approach that I'm in.
SPEAKER_02 (15:14):
Yeah.
Inside Note Kids, he did thisall while not having a
programmatic platform or digitaltechnology.
Old school, for sure.
Old school, yeah.
A lot of dots on the maps, a lotof rolling up the sleeves.
I love that.
SPEAKER_00 (15:27):
Yeah, I
SPEAKER_01 (15:27):
had a yellow pad, a pencil, and a phone on my desk.
And like I mentioned earlier, wehad to go to a computer room to
like maybe put somethingtogether on like prettier than
that.
So times have changed.
SPEAKER_02 (15:38):
Yeah, but it does become the theme of where you
are today in your career.
But before we jump to it, thisis where you hit your gauntlet,
right?
You're 20 plus years in thespecialized out-of-home role.
And that all started at, youknow, famous Ogilvy Mindshare.
So what was that decision whereit was like out of all the
media, most people at the timewould jump to TV because it's
(16:01):
sexy and glamorous.
But you chose that.
SPEAKER_01 (16:05):
Yeah, it's a great question.
And there was definitely momentsthroughout my more traditional
planning and buying of allformats of media that I kept.
hearing certain things playedback consistently from brand
teams that, you know, we mighthave multi-million dollar TV
campaigns in market and printcampaigns and all sorts of other
channels.
And maybe we would do some sortof, you know, experiential thing
(16:26):
on the Metro North platformwhere people were hired, like,
you know, the jet packs ofcoffee and like in people's
commutes, I think it was aMaxwell house effort we were
doing.
And like the thing that gotplayed back the most was that
hundred K thing that maybe wedid way back when, uh, Like
that's what everybody talkedabout versus the millions of
dollars we were spending onother channels.
Like, you know what, maybethere's something to this like
(16:47):
outdoor thing.
And that was just a consistentexperience that I've had.
So anytime we, we activated sortof, you know, these experiential
capabilities or some sort ofcool execution or bad at home
that made the most impact thatgot picked up by, you know, news
outlets, potentially like brandswere talking about it.
(17:07):
So yeah, When the opportunity topivot to Ogilvy from Alamorati
came up, there were some optionslike, do I go broadcast?
Do I go traditional media, staywith some of the teams that were
going in that direction?
Or do I do this out-of-homething?
I'm like, it was Ogilvy.
Ogilvy was like a behemoth atthe time, really established
brand.
And it was like an out-of-homespecific role.
(17:29):
I was like, you know what?
I think based on what I'veexperienced, anytime I've done
out-of-home, I think this is thething to lean into.
And I...
You know, 20 plus years, I'venot, you know, haven't looked
back.
It's the right, it was the rightchoice.
I met all those people you, youknow, you riled off their names
before and still in touch withthem today.
It was just a beautifulfoundation for, I think, you
(17:52):
know, what this industry'sexperience is just like that.
Building something really cool,continuing to layer in
sophisticated capabilities.
Of course, those came later, butjust diving into it and owning
those experiences was like a tonof fun for me.
SPEAKER_02 (18:05):
Yeah.
And it's always been the people.
We talk about it all the time,whether it's investors that are
dived deep into or outsiderskind of better understanding
this space.
A lot of the tech folks, eventhe one you work for today,
there's a lot of curiositybehind it.
And one of the one things that Ialways mention, and I said it to
nauseam this past week up inBoston at our conference was,
(18:26):
it's the people.
The people that you and Iknow...
they're still in the space andthey're in the space for a
purpose.
It's not that they can't get ajob somewhere else.
Well, maybe a couple of them,but it's really because they're
passionate about it.
But I guess going back to your,your question and you being on
the agency side for so long,like, and still to this day,
(18:46):
like an out of home campaign isalways more impactful.
Like Coachella just ended acouple of months ago.
And it's like, that's thecampaigns that get spoken about
the most.
That's the viral aspect of it,you know?
And now I'll, you know, the roleof social and out of home
playing together, you know,Lamar owns a colossal media
handpain company and a bigportion of why they're
(19:08):
successful is that the viralitybehind a TikTok video, behind a
snap, behind an Instagram.
Why do you think still theindustry, I want to say
struggles, but doesn't get alarger fair share.
And it's kind of like to yourpoint back in the day, like
millions of dollars spent on TV.
And then it was like a hundredthousand was thrown out of home.
(19:30):
but the out of home had the mostimpact and conversation around
it.
And I know this is a questionthat you probably struggle with.
And I know I've struggled withfor the last 20 years.
Like why?
SPEAKER_01 (19:41):
Yeah, it's a head-scratcher for sure, I
think.
And I'm always surprised anddelighted by the fact that
anytime you put a celebrity on abillboard and then you show
their reaction to them seeing itfor the first time on Sunset or
wherever the street is, they'reawed by it.
They're like, oh my God, Ididn't realize how huge this
thing is.
(20:01):
Now, amazing.
There's something about it thatI don't know that we've ever
been able to truly put ourfinger on, but it's that kind of
reaction from even a celebrity.
They're everywhere.
They...
But that somehow speaks to thecharm that we have in our space.
So it's a great question.
I don't know that we've solvedwhy we aren't getting a larger
(20:21):
share.
I mean, it's always like, oh, wedon't have the right measurement
or we don't have this.
We actually have amazingmeasurement.
And I'm sure you've covered thisin the past.
But these are the things thatwe're out there talking about in
a major way.
I think we're starting to seegrowth and we're starting to
see...
We don't usually have a badmeeting.
It's just getting the meetingsometimes is the hardest part.
(20:42):
But just the fact that we canmeasure outcomes to the degree
that we just never had in thedays of McCarty and those other
opportunities, we just couldn'tprove out what we were doing.
Yes, we had a lot of talk valueon that platform and handing out
Maxwell's coffee or whatever itmight have been.
But the fact that we canactually prove we're exposed and
(21:04):
actually went to a place andtook an action.
These are things that we've beendoing for quite some time now.
And it's still a surprise tomany brand people that like, Oh,
you can do that.
You can be more full funnel,even in some cases, a
performance channel.
Like, so I'm confident that wewill get there.
I'm frustrated how long it'staken us to get even to this
(21:26):
point, but I'm super excitedabout the fact that we can
actually have that conversation.
Yeah.
Which is why, maybe why we'realso doing it because like, It
just gets better.
We have more to talk about.
So maybe we're all like, maybethis is going to be the year
where they finally realize
SPEAKER_02 (21:42):
the thing.
Well, and to your point, alwayssunny in Philadelphia, Charlie
day, one of the writers, heobviously was on main stage.
He's founded four walls, whichis an American Irish whiskey
brand, but he even said it on,on main stage.
He was like, if you have an outof home billboard, whether
you're a small company, largecompany or not, like out of home
proves that you've made it.
And I think the funniest thingthat he said, he goes, and he
(22:04):
was probably half, half joking,but probably serious is he said
when he read the script for afistfight, he was like, wait, I
know that they're going to haveto put billboards up and I get
to be on a billboard with icecube in LA.
And he was like, that was thecoolest thing.
So I had to point it's, it'salways so memorable and
everyone's talking about it.
SPEAKER_01 (22:23):
So, so we got that going for us, which is
SPEAKER_02 (22:25):
nice.
UNKNOWN (22:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (22:27):
And this is where you and I met each other.
So you began to run MediaVest,running their out-of-home
practice for 14 years.
Again, that's when you and Iconnected.
And to your point, I loved thattime.
And I think we're still there,but I think we're starting to
phase out of it because we'vesolidified that.
But I just remember, Norm, everytime you're like, hey, if you
ever...
(22:47):
And you said it in a very sternway, but like, hey, because we
need this.
And I'm sure it was every mediaowner that came through.
It was always like, hey, comein, bring us a...
the most outlandish, coolestidea.
And we may not hit that idea,but at least we know that those
capabilities.
And I just remember one of myfavorite agencies to prep for
(23:08):
it.
I'm not telling you this becauseyou're a very long industry
friend and that you're on thepodcast right now.
But I just remember you were oneof the most fun folks that I got
to present to because you alwayschallenged.
You're like, don't come in herewith like what your new
inventory is like.
That's fine.
Like I can get that on an email,but like come in.
And it's funny, our producer,Faith, who heads up our
marketing team, I'll pull upsome of my old decks, which side
(23:31):
note were, they were awful nowthat you look back at them.
But the ideas that folks and notjust Lamar, but others, Clear
Channel out front and all theother folks in the space, I
always appreciated that aboutyou because you were helping
challenge the industry to pushforward.
You were always saying like,hey, go find those tech
partners, right?
okay, you can stream livetweets.
(23:52):
We'll come in and tell us howHeineken can stream live tweets
for their fighter.
There's another liquor brandthat you represented, a
SPEAKER_01 (24:00):
beer brand.
Yeah, actually, there was a goodrun on Heineken too.
But I think that's our job.
We need to be able to...
Again, out of home generally hasgot a very limited exposure
within brands.
I used to When I was on theagency side, I always said the
good news is they don't knowwhat we do and the bad news is
they don't know what we do.
(24:20):
So at the CC level, when the CEOof an agency is talking to the
CEO of a major blue chip brandwithin our portfolio, are they
leaning in saying, oh, youreally need to get involved with
that at home?
And then I'm like, So they kindof left us to our own devices,
which was good because we canpush and innovate and do what we
have to do, but we weren'tgetting the exposure.
(24:41):
At the same time, they weren'tsaying, you know, you need to be
here and here's why.
So we were kind of left to ourown devices.
So we kind of never, we'realways kind of under the radar
and it was on us to challengeour partners to bring us ideas.
And because otherwise we're justgoing to show them photo sheets
of billboards and like, yeah,there's a great board on 995.
Like you should buy it.
(25:02):
It's great.
But like, that's not going toget anybody excited.
We need to understand like, whatcan you bring us about your
inventory and your markets orhow you're, you're, you know,
activating those units andespecially as they become
digital, that's when we got toknow each other.
Suddenly that opened up a widerange of creative possibilities.
You know, the production issuesused to be a bigger issue.
(25:24):
So that's no longer a point ofcontention.
It's like, no, let's leveragethis space in this bigger way.
And Lamar, to your credit, youblew out a ton of inventory
really, really quickly.
So I was able to start to scalethat story and help clients
understand the valueproposition.
So all those things got usbetter conversations with our
(25:46):
internal clients.
So we needed to to push, or atleast I felt I needed to push.
I challenged my team, like, thisis your job.
Take the meetings from ourpartners.
When your client actually asksyou, like, so what's new out
there?
And you don't have an answer.
like good luck getting another,another session with that, with
that person.
So if you're bringing ideaslike, Oh, we just met with this
cool partner and here's whatthey do.
(26:07):
And here's why it's great foryour brand.
And let us test it.
We have to do, we're doing thattoday.
We have to do that.
SPEAKER_02 (26:13):
Cause I'm going to ask you what, what's the, your
favorite campaign that youworked on it at media vest, but
I'm going to start with the mostbizarre pitch that I recall.
And I won't call the guy's nameout, but he was always the guy
in the back of the room that waslike, really?
Can we really do this?
So it allowed me to prepare evenmore.
And I know you know who I'mtalking about.
But I remember I pitched thisdog food brand that you guys
represented.
(26:34):
And I wanted to come in becauseI was like, I needed to make
Norm proud.
So I had my creative team mockup a billboard with this dog
brand.
And it was underneath.
We turned it into a pop-up dogshop.
And then somehow I met with thisRFID technology company that I
was like, okay, under the board,you're going to tap your phone
with your dog, take a picture.
It's going to stream live to thedigital.
(26:55):
But then the RFID is going todrop out a sample of that dog
treat.
And I just never, I'll neverforget.
I still have that deck.
And I remember the guy in theback of the room was like, so
can you tell me specifically howthat RFID would trigger?
And it was just like thecomplexities and the questions
that were asked.
And I'm like, dude, this wasjust a wild idea.
(27:16):
But
SPEAKER_01 (27:17):
how about you?
I mean, let's see.
The one that comes to mind forme was actually just a single
execution on one billboard.
It was for Yahoo Personals.
We actually posted a live datewith two physical people on a
billboard having a date.
(27:37):
And it was streamed live.
And the entire team, I remember,was over the course of the day
watching this date on thebrand's website.
And I think...
The fact that you can do that,and I think that also, for me,
made that digital connection.
While it wasn't a digital board,it was a digital-first brand
(27:58):
that recognized the power ofphysical location and what that
experience could be, and makingthat go viral, as viral as
things could go back then.
But the fact that people couldlive watch this experience, and
just also the logistics aroundit, the insurance and
capabilities and all the thingsand how do we physically get
(28:20):
people up there and do it safelyand permits and all that fun
stuff was, I think, part of alsothe out-of-home allure is if you
didn't quite know how to do it,just talk to the out-of-home
team.
They've got a guy.
They'll figure it out.
I joke a lot like, oh, I got aguy.
We just pick up the phone at thetime.
(28:40):
We pick up the phone now.
whatever we're picking up andconnecting, but it's solving
problems.
I think out of home, becauseit's not just the billboard,
it's not just the bus shelter,it's an experience, it's
everything in between.
There's some way to do somethingthat's going to have people stop
and take notice and experienceand engage.
I think more so than maybe anyother format that's out there
(29:03):
today.
So that one's the one thatstands out.
But then there's some of theones, like we talked about
Heineken, that we were able towrap entire construction bridges
and just the sheer scale of someof the things you can do and
just taking over cities, alsojust awesome.
And when you have competingbrand managers seeing that and
hearing through the grapevinehow pissed they were that they
(29:26):
didn't get that, you knew youdid your job right.
So I think those types ofthings, whether it's a single
execution that got a top play tojust saturating an important
city and everywhere you turn.
And actually, that wasanother...
I'll name one other one back inthe Continental Airlines days.
We used to, like six months ofthe year, New York was just
continental blue.
(29:47):
And the creator was incredibleon that because they literally
had, I don't know, hundreds oftaglines.
So it didn't become bluewallpaper.
Actually, people would sort ofget conditioned to like, oh,
there's another sort of fun,maybe playful New York-y thing
or playing off the destinationsthat they would fly to.
So things like that, especiallywhen you're, again, close to the
creative process, I think wasreally impactful.
SPEAKER_02 (30:08):
Yeah.
And that's the fun part, right?
The simplicity behind it is, isit's a, it's a blank canvas that
you could tell a story onvisually.
And I think that's the othercool thing that in my opinion is
as social media hassignificantly become a part of
our lives.
I mean, there's a reason why,you know, psychologists tell you
to turn your phone to grayscale.
If you want to stop scrolling,doom scrolling, right.
(30:30):
Is because we're visual humansand you love seeing things and
you know, nothing's better thanan out of home campaign,
regardless of the media type.
So in true norm fashion, notonly are you evolving and better
understanding the media and theout-of-home industry and kind of
evolving it through your teamsand through yourself
specifically, you see thewriting on the wall where the
(30:52):
evolution is coming withprogrammatic.
And you started last year,January of 2024, with a little
company called Hivestack.
Touch on that, like where thepivot came in.
SPEAKER_01 (31:03):
Yeah, I mean, so my pivot away from just traditional
agency side of the business intothe dark side of sales, I wish I
did it sooner because I love it.
But it's been about five or sixyears now that I did that.
When I went into a programmaticstartup then, and I realized
there was a short little windowwhere I was doing some
independent sales, you know,media owners were like, hey, I
(31:24):
hear you are maybe selling now.
I'm like, yeah, I'm kind of likebuilding up a thing.
And I realized it was fun beingthe guy bringing the cookies to
the meetings.
I was like, this is fun, right?
And many of the people that Iwas calling on were people that
I've worked with over the years.
And so I kind of decided thisis, I think, the path forward.
And then, of course, you know,just before, I also realized
(31:45):
like, hey, health insurance iskind of expensive.
I probably need to, and like, soan opportunity came in to
actually go to a formal companyand build a practice is for
out-of-home in the programmaticspace.
So I pivoted to that.
Thankfully, because then COVIDhappened and the world went
sideways, but I was at anestablished place in a track
(32:05):
that was, I think, the futureand has been the future for how
we transact in the out-of-homemarketplaces.
on programmatically and usingaudiences and data and being
able to measure outcomes.
And so all of these things wereboxes I was able to check that
were exciting that I wish I hadback in the day.
So really enjoying the fact thatwe can go meet with our agency
(32:26):
partners, talk to Blue Chipclients and all the way down to
the mom and pop local storeowners and say, you know, We
know where your audiences are.
We know how often they visit XYZlocation.
We actually know this screen isgoing to do better than that
screen.
So being able to be empoweredusing data and tools and
technology that we just neverhad before was super exciting.
(32:48):
So I think that's when I justdoubled down on it.
And I said, this is definitelywhere we're going.
To be able to be on theforefront of how we transact and
still work with all the samecartoon characters and people
that I've come to know and loveall the years just seem like a
no-brainer.
And so, you know, about a yearand four or five months ago, I
(33:09):
joined HiveStack, which was atthe time just acquired by
Pariano, a technology companythat sort of focuses on, you
know, really unique solutionsfor agencies, brands, retailers
as well.
There was also over the lasthowever many years, retail media
is starting to become a bigthing and understanding shopping
behaviors.
And again, data-driven, whetherit's first party data to all the
(33:32):
different audiences that you cantap into from a variety of
different places and being ableto tie that back to physical
locations.
You can tell a story around it.
That was just like, oh my God,this is amazing.
Especially with COVID, it was aninteresting period of time
because consumer behaviorshifted.
How people shop, where they wentsuddenly was a complete change.
(33:53):
sort of pivot away from anythingthat we knew.
So being able to actually show aclient, well, you know that they
maybe aren't going to certainvenue types anymore, but they're
going to a grocery store, aC-store, stocking up for their
families and having, showingthat movement in real time was
just like, all right, this isthe way we need to power our
decision.
So yeah, that's what we've beendoing at HiveSac now for the
(34:15):
time that I've been here is thevisualizations of how how people
move in relation to physicalinventory and building plans
that are based on what'sobserved behavior and the
measuring.
It's an end-to-end perfect storyfrom my perspective.
SPEAKER_02 (34:32):
Yeah, and it's what the three powerful pillars of
out-of-home.
It's location, it's audience,and it's creative.
And the ability to utilizetechnology to have all three of
those work simultaneously inreal time.
Again, creative triggering basedoff of whatever the KPIs,
whether it's weather, whetherit's moments in time, and then
(34:53):
that first or third party datato better understand.
I'm with you.
I think out of home is finallystarting to get the recognition
and it had to have takentechnology to evolve to open it
up.
And now, and we'll go into thisa little bit in more depth, but
now it's like, okay, so how dowe do the same thing for static?
And I think that's where thePandora's box just becomes...
(35:18):
open for the Atom Home Space towhere you see a lot of these
digital shops.
But before we get, we dive deepinto that, give our listeners
just a very high level, youknow, everyone loves high stack.
They love the beautiful pink,Andres Suplianis, who's a dear
friend of mine.
Thank God, I'm so happy for him.
If he's listening, I hope he is,that he finally retired and gets
(35:38):
to take a moment.
But we both know Andres and he'sprobably not, he's probably
coming up with something elsebizarre today.
in another industry.
But give our listeners a littlebit more about Perion and why
it's so important.
I'm excited about it because Iknow what they bring to the
table.
But give our listeners just avery high level why that's so
important and why thatacquisition meant so much more
(35:59):
to your point, the retail mediaside.
SPEAKER_01 (36:02):
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, Maybe a little
over a year ago.
I don't know how familiar atleast the US marketplace was
with Perion, but they've beenout there for years as a
technology company, but thefocus was more on the sub-brand.
So they acquired HiveStack,which they recognized from a
platform perspective and fromwhat we were doing from a
leading industry andprogrammatic digital at home,
(36:23):
and not just in the US, 39markets now.
So that part is huge, probablythe largest, I believe, in the
space.
So with physical people andintelligence in all those local
markets.
So that part was a big sort ofattractive capability from a
broader paradigm perspective,but then undertone who's been
around for many, many years andcreating high-impact creative,
(36:46):
strong in the CTV space, andthen other brands like Codefuel
and Betazilic, they recognizedthat we were operating sort of
separately from we were startingto tap into each other and
pulling in different solutionsas we needed.
But, you know, the power ofhaving one brand, one entity,
with all those capabilitiesrolled up into, you know, one
(37:07):
single source solution, I thinkis where we're heading as an
organization.
So it was formalized as, youknow, where the individual
brands were no longertechnically in existence.
We get to keep some of the pink,the subtle pink, which is nice.
But, you know, we are oneorganization focused on, you
know, tech-forward,insights-driven.
(37:27):
AI, of course, can be a part ofit.
So being able to leverage uniqueinsights, creative tools.
I mean, Undertone Forever isknown for its creative strength
and capability, not only in theCTV space, but broadly speaking.
So being able to have that andnow apply that to out of home.
So whether it's DCO, which is ahuge area for us, being able to,
whether it's weather triggersand pollen count things to live
(37:50):
sports scores and all theversioning that a brand has to
do.
Sometimes it's, it's physically,um, Just resource-wise,
challenging for them to executethose types of things.
So being able to have thatresource readily available,
solve those problems, be theeasy button for brands,
agencies, and retailers alike totake a more sophisticated
approach to connecting withconsumers, I think is what
(38:13):
you're going to see really shinefrom Parian in the coming months
and years ahead.
SPEAKER_02 (38:18):
Yeah.
How about the irony that youstarted your career across
multiple media outlets?
And then here you are today,back into the multimedia facet.
I love it.
SPEAKER_01 (38:28):
Yeah, I mean, it's, I think, inevitable.
I think I love the fact thateven...
you know, having closerconnections to the creative side
of things is also kind of comingfull circle because media and
creative sort of split apart andnow we're finding a much more
success with things coming maybeback together and we're being
closer to that process to tell astronger story.
(38:48):
But, you know, we are stillfirst and foremost, Point
Solution, Digital Home, that'sthe platform.
But I think because of the factthat our former sister company,
now part of the VSA Marbella,has such a strong hold on the
CTV marketplace and that'sdefinitely a high-profile area
for brands now.
I can have a broaderconversation with the folks who
(39:10):
are activating digital at home,and if they're now able to tap
into CTV dollars that maybe wantto have additional scale on the
digital at home side, becausethere are networks now that
maybe work with some of therequirements and vast tags and
different things that the CTVspace uses.
I can bring in my partner fromthat side of the house and maybe
(39:31):
have a more rich conversationversus just that one solution.
So it's exciting to be able tooffer up other things as we
understand what marketers arelooking for.
But at the end of the day, it'san at-home solution, at least at
this point.
I don't know that we're goingomni-channel anytime soon.
But the technology is there, andI think clients are reacting to
(39:53):
the fact that we can simplify...
that whole conversation more sothan we ever could before.
SPEAKER_02 (39:59):
Yeah.
And you and I've discussed this,but it's interesting that again,
out of home being that darling,you know, some, some of your
counterparts within, within thebroader company have started to
become very interested.
Like, and I think that's, that'swhere, in my opinion, where
Norm's seen such success isyou've always looked at this as
a larger, a larger picture.
(40:19):
You know, if we take our out ofhome hats off, if we take our
digital marketing advertisershats, like, we as consumers, we
really don't care where that adserved or where it came from.
It's like, talk to me at theright point in my day and my
journey.
And it may be CTV ad on myphone.
It may be an out of home screen.
It may be the back of a, of aUber, whatever it may be.
(40:41):
It's like, talk to me to thatmoment.
So the, The last half here, whatI really want to dive deep into
is, you know, again, you and Ihave lived through this, both on
the agency side and thepublisher side.
But the evolution of theadvertising agency, specifically
out of home, I mean, you'vemanaged a team for 14 plus
years.
How has technology evolvinghelped you?
(41:04):
And where do you see thespecialist playing a role in
this space?
And then also, how are wecapturing new digital brands,
new digital agencies into thespace?
Because it's this like delicatebalance.
It's almost like when you inviteyour friends over and then you
invite like your baseballfriends over and you're like, I
hope you guys all get along.
SPEAKER_01 (41:23):
Yeah, there's definitely sometimes can be this
little awkward thing.
But at the end of the day,everyone's excited to make these
new connections, right?
And, you know, coming from aspecialist role, and we are
still very much in a specialistarea.
And I used to cringe when theysaid, well, you know, three
years specialist are going to begone.
And like, this is I've heardthis like nine years ago, I feel
(41:45):
like so.
the specialist brings immensevalue because this is still an
incredibly complex space, right?
So being able to understand, youknow, in this market, I need
this media owner and thatscreen, and I'm going to pepper
in these, like, there's nothinglike it.
So you have to have experts inthe space.
But how are you going to deploythose experts?
What are you going to arm themwith is, I think, Maybe what's
(42:08):
keeping them so valued is thefact that we are now empowering
them with audiences, anaudience-based conversation
versus strictly a real estateconversation.
I think we've alwayshistorically been a real
estate-driven solution.
I want to be across the streetfrom XYZ headquarters.
I want to be in a hip and trendyneighborhood.
And we can do that all day long.
It's still a strength of ourindustry.
(42:31):
But to be able to say, I want toreach...
Haircare purchasers, where isthat person and how do we find
them?
And that comes back to anincredibly fast-growing space
for our industry is CPG andretail.
They are not historicallyactivating out of home.
(42:51):
But if you can go to aspecialist agency and give them
tools and purchase behaviors andall sorts of audience data to
say, we've seen these peoplepurchase XYZ haircare products.
product and we know that notonly are they physically in the
store or in the in the parkinglot but there's a billboard 10
miles away that we know is goingto reach a hair care purchaser
(43:12):
because we've seen that behaviorwe've seen using mobile device
data using you knowunderstanding traffic patterns
and movement and visitation youstart to connect all those
pieces and you empower yourspecialist agency to go into a
dashboard or to a platform youknow like formerly known as
HiveStack, now Perion, andactually put in their audiences,
(43:34):
see heat maps, deliverimpressions based on when we see
those impressions at the bestpoints in time throughout those
days, and then understand whatare they doing after being
exposed.
And then also...
Extending that to not just anout-of-home-only conversation,
but if their brands are workingwith omni-channel platforms like
the Trade Desk or DB360, well,we can connect to those.
(43:57):
And we aren't in the silo.
We can push that super-rich,sophisticated, precision-based
targeting, but at scale.
into those omni-channelsolutions and measure all the
other things that you're doingand how that will be part of
that conversation.
I think that's why we're stillin the game.
That's why we're still lovingwhat we do because we're giving
them these tools to have a moreinformed conversation versus
(44:20):
that little silo, like, here'syour 100K.
As great as it is, we have somemoney left over.
Now we're actually part of thebrief, part of the, here's your
audience, find those people forus.
SPEAKER_02 (44:31):
Yeah.
And it's, you know, obviouslycreating those efficiencies are
massive and one thing for thebuying tools, but the ability to
overlay to your point, the, theaudience data is everything that
we've been saying, you know,cause remember back in the day
it was like, Hey, three to fivemiles from big box retailer X
and you and I both know, uh, Weall travel significantly
(44:52):
different.
And you were always saying like,yeah, but this board over here.
And it's like, well, there's nodata back then.
There's no data to prove thatout.
So I just can't be a part of thebuy.
But I also think there's a lotof fun to your point where if
you think a lot of these brands,it goes much further.
The big buzzword right now isculturally relevant moments or
(45:14):
conditional moments where...
hey, let's light up a wholemarket because outcome X have
happened.
And now you're starting to notonly talk about the platforms,
the data, but again, thatcreative ability to trigger and
have buys turn off and on in amuch larger scale becomes
significantly more importantthat our brands are starting to
recognize and digital agenciesare saying like, okay, we need
(45:38):
to take this medium even moreserious than ever because not
only do they play in our spaceand we're connected, but but
also it can do some really coolshit that we can't do in any
other media at that speed andpace.
SPEAKER_01 (45:50):
Yeah.
And the fact that we're havingan audience first conversation
allows us to, obviously like ourbread and butter is our
specialist agency.
So we know the value of eachindividual placement, but then
we can have a similarconversation with a digital team
who maybe doesn't know thedifference between Lamar, Deco,
Clear, or whoever, Mama PopOutdoor.
(46:10):
They just know I'm trying toreach somebody who, exhibits a
certain behavior and does acertain purchase pattern.
So the fact that we can now havethat discussion with them and be
in their platform and build apool of inventory that
accomplishes a specificobjective, depending on what
their KPIs are, that's also aconversation that I'm super
(46:32):
excited about.
How do we, one, empower ourspecialists, but then also just
talk to other teams who maybewouldn't have thought about a
home as a solution?
but yeah, all our inventoriesthere.
You want to see movement datahere.
Here it is.
It's a very differentconversation.
It's very different pitch.
Like they're, they're not, it'sless about publisher specific or
specific media types.
(46:52):
It's just audiences versusspecialists.
So like, all right, who are webuying from and where is the
screen and show me like, sowe're, we're set up for any one
of those conversations and aresuccessful in any one of those
conversations.
SPEAKER_02 (47:06):
Yeah.
And I, I think as we, continueto evolve and we continue to
recognize the importance ofplatforms, the importance of
data.
I've always said this to one ofyour other partners.
It's like, there's a significantamount of world beyond just
digital that exists in theout-of-home space that if we can
automate this side of the houseand introduce digital agencies,
(47:27):
create more efficient for thesespecialists, then now we start
to truly emerge as a powerfulmedium and looked upon as as one
one medium not individual youknow partners or publishers or
screen types and then obviouslythere's the importance of the
specialists is also to scrub alot of these screens and it's
like yeah no way would that everend up on my brief like yes the
(47:50):
data may show it but like let'slook at quality of screens and
you know that's a whole anotherhour and a half long
conversation with you for sure
SPEAKER_01 (47:58):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think we're also seeingthe same thing on the retail
media side too.
Being able to show that it's notjust about the screens in their
stores.
Effectively, you can light upany screen, however, 500,000,
600,000 screens nationwide,however close they are to their
stores or not, but using theirfirst party data to actually
find their consumers.
And it's not just the screen inthe aisle.
(48:22):
You can have a much bigger storymiles away and have it all their
fingertips like that part'sreally interesting um for us to
be empowering that side of ourindustry too so yeah
SPEAKER_02 (48:33):
look i'm i'm beyond excited you and i can talk for
hours i i know that whenever ifyou recall the conversation you
and i had probably about threeor four years ago when you
started poking around in theprogrammatic space and i i
remember shooting you a text orcalling you and saying like norm
i am so excited that you're hereBecause the breadth of knowledge
that you bring, the experiencethat you bring, but also more
(48:54):
importantly, your mind and theway that you think, it's almost
like you're never comfortable.
And I think that's the best typeof people that you want in the
out-of-home space and moreimportantly, on the technology
side.
SPEAKER_01 (49:05):
No, I appreciate that.
I do say you have to becomfortable with being
uncomfortable because as alegacy out-of-home guy, I'm in a
space sometimes that theconversations are...
have nothing to do with thebillboard.
It's about pushing an audiencesegment into an S3 bucket.
At first, I'm like, where's thisbucket that everybody keeps
talking about?
You realize, all right, that'sthis.
(49:25):
You start to make theseconnections, but you realize
it's bigger than just out ofhome.
It's using technology in a wayto solve a problem we never had
access to, being moresophisticated about it, being
accountable.
I think that's one thing, too,is how do we prove to a client
that, all right, leveraging thisgroup of assets in this way,
(49:46):
allows you to have XYZ outcomeand being able to be transparent
about it.
Really send them a list withevery little line item detail
that they would want so thatthey know that we're accountable
for everything on this list andwe're going to deliver against
this exact list and it'sapproved and you're going to see
it ahead of time.
Like all these things, there'sno black box with us.
I think that's important.
We want to make sure that, youknow, clients feel comfortable
(50:09):
about the investments thatthey're making and then being
able to prove that out for themis critical.
SPEAKER_02 (50:13):
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, and no chance was I notgoing to let you get off this
podcast about talking aboutbeing a professional mime as a
kid.
SPEAKER_01 (50:21):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_02 (50:21):
I figured
SPEAKER_01 (50:22):
maybe the time would run out, but to your credit, you
built in a little cushion.
So yeah, I mean, literally, itwas a period of time where I was
the only...
kid.
I was like nine years old, Ithink.
I did it for two or three yearsin an adult pantomime troupe
that performed all over thetri-state area in schools and
churches and theaters.
I actually got paid for it.
I actually asked my mother wherethat money went.
(50:46):
But it was an interestingexperience just from a
confidence perspective.
At least not many lines becauseobviously it's being a mime.
But to be able to tell a storythrough just and be part of, you
know, like some artisticmovement form to it, it was
(51:06):
great.
And obviously not your typicalactivity for a kid.
I mean, I did all the usualstuff and swim teams and Little
League and all the differentthings.
But I think it did shape me insome ways to, one, maybe be
comfortable in an uncomfortablesituation because, one, I was
also the only kid and surroundedby adults performing all over
the city.
And that probably, looking backon it, probably did help to some
(51:29):
degree with pushing myself intospaces that maybe...
You know, you have to go to, butsometimes you're hesitant to do.
And so, yeah, that was a littlefun.
There's some pictures floatingaround, which maybe, you know,
over a Heineken one day.
But it was definitely a funlittle childhood memory.
And one that, you know, wheneveryone's like, tell us a
(51:51):
couple of unknown things aboutyourself.
Usually that's where I gobecause, you know, how many
other minds have you run into inyour life?
Yeah, zero.
This is the first.
I've known you for almost 18years and I never knew you.
Great party trick too, so...
It's true.
Every now and then there's alittle something I'll put out
there and get a chuckle.
(52:11):
So yeah, it's fun.
SPEAKER_02 (52:13):
I love it.
Well, listen, my friend, it'salways a pleasure.
Like I'd mentioned, it's fun tobe in this space with you and
I'm glad you're here and enjoyour friendship.
And I know our listeners, a lotof which know you and a lot of
which don't.
So again, let's continue to beuncomfortable together.
SPEAKER_01 (52:28):
I like it.
I appreciate the opportunity tohave the conversation today.
I cherish our friendship andlooking forward to the years
ahead I think there's so muchmore we can do industry-wide and
as partners.
So we'd love to continue to beuncomfortable, but in a good
way, knowing that we're tryingto do the right thing for our
partners and our agencies andour brands.
I think that's what they lean onus for.
(52:49):
So excited to do that togetherwith
SPEAKER_02 (52:51):
you.
That's
SPEAKER_01 (52:51):
key.
All right.
Thanks, my friend.
All the best.
SPEAKER_02 (52:57):
Thanks for listening to this episode of Digital&
Dirt.
Don't forget to subscribe andleave a review on Spotify or
Apple podcasts.
Follow us on social media forthe latest updates and stay
tuned for our next episode.
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