S1:E11 Mastering E-Commerce & Entrepreneurship: Insights with Carl Hartmann - Lyre's Spirit Co - Digital Discovery Podcast

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Thank you, mate, so much for joining the show today.

(00:17):
I really appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule.
I know as a serial entrepreneur, you're always up to something new.
Yes.
So how you been and what you've been up to?
Oh, mate.
Yeah, thanks for having me, Nigel.
Always happy to chat as you know.
Oh, you know, I think at the moment it's just surviving this current cycle of capitalism,

(00:38):
which is not without its challenges.
It's definitely business has been on hard mode the last couple of years, but you know,
certainly certainly a great learning experience.
That's for sure.
Yeah, I mean, I've been talking to businesses actually quite a bit on that point.
It's been interesting.
And obviously with the news that's been coming out of Israel and the Middle East and things

(00:58):
and there's actually a lot of software companies over in that that area.
So I had quite a few podcasts lined up and they actually got cancelled because of what's
going on.
Probably.
Yeah, probably.
Actually, that's an interesting one.
I never thought of that, but some of them were involved in, you know, family members
were involved in what happened and look, I mean, I don't like to get into politics,

(01:18):
but we're all human at the end of the day.
Indeed.
And it affects business, right?
Like if you think of the last few years, I mean, there's been nothing ordinary about
doing ordinary business.
You know, we had COVID.
I mean, you could write dissertations on some of the challenges through business for that,
particularly, you know, the ups and downs that the e-commerce sector had.

(01:41):
That's for sure.
Then you've had, you know, the whole Ukraine situation.
Now you've got this conflict in the Middle East and then you've got such some unique
macros.
So you've got inflation that's been high.
You've had, but weirdly you've had unemployment that's been low and you know, you've got
obviously increasing interest rates, a nice little surprise this week in Australia.

(02:04):
It's like they think we're all distracted with the horse race, like have another quarter.
They always tend to do it like that, hold off and then they wait for everyone to win
some money.
Maybe they're looking at, you know, TAB takings and go, yep, that's too high.
We just need to slap you all on the wrist.
Guys, data tells a story.
Doesn't it?
What?
Yeah, actually that's a good segue.
And I think it would be great to maybe start off about your early life maybe and then get

(02:32):
into, you know, where you started.
I mean, you've got such an amazing history of starting businesses, successful businesses
and you know, you and I have known each other for quite a while and I remember.
I think it's decades now.
Yeah, yeah, probably.
Huh?
It is, it's decades, right?
And I still remember the young car walking in from Tumando that I'd never heard of before

(02:54):
and I thought, yeah, this is this sounds actually like an amazing product and you started
getting into it and it was just so far in the future of what people needed.
You really saw a need and you feel that need so well.
I think we can talk about that.
We were 10 years too early there, but yeah, look, origin story there.
I think for those that don't know, my university job, actually, I was in the early days of

(03:17):
JB Hi-Fi and this is pre IPO JB.
It had Macquarie come in, pump some cash.
They just expanded their store count quite materially and while doing a business degree,
I got to watch, I guess, you know, for all intents and purposes, a venture-backed business
expand all through sort of dot-com one and back when JB had a limited number of stores,

(03:40):
people used to come in, you know, I worked in the Brisbane City store and people would
come in from, I don't know, like cans and say, oh, this TV is so much cheaper here,
how much to ship it?
And we had this mythical piece of paper on the wall at the back and that was our rate
card and all I can tell you is nine times out of 10, if we charged the customer that
number, it was wrong.
And I just started thinking at the time, like surely it can't be that hard to predict a

(04:03):
cost of shipping and apparently it was.
And then after I finished uni, I worked for News Corp because I'd come from retail,
they're like, you can have a retail portfolio and I looked after a bunch of brands through
dot-com one and what most brands in Australia did was just copy what the Americans did,
which was free shipping.
Now I can tell you a myriad of horror stories.

(04:25):
My favorite was I had this local business that was selling couches and decided to do
free shipping and like some of these first like sales were like regional WA, Far North
and Queensland and in some cases it cost more to ship the product than the product was sold
for, right?
You think of these remote areas, heavy goods, you'd know that from your Bing Lee days,

(04:47):
no doubt like, you know, a fridge in Sydney is very different to a fridge in pick a remote
postcode in the Northern Territory, right?
Like it's like here's a kidney.
And I started thinking about just the uni economics of this saying this is a big problem
like particularly for a country like Australia where you know, you have different companies

(05:09):
that specialize in different things.
You've got retailers that you know, some of the have it easy if you sell t-shirts,
but you know, God forbid you're in electronics or something and you've got diversity.
You've got everything from a toaster to a double door fridge and you've got a lot of
variables and ultimately if you bring it back to the customer experience and the customer

(05:30):
journey and this hasn't changed in 20 years like someone comes to a website, they're in
the checkout.
There's this moment of truth and if you give them the facts to make a decision, that's
your chance to convert them.
If you don't give them the information and there's still retailers, I won't publicly
shame them that you know, for certain bulky goods for example, they'll just go call for

(05:51):
a quote and then they wonder why conversions are basically non-existence because if you're
not giving someone the information, the customer journey gets broken and drop-off is there.
So the fundamental concept of Tmando was you know, the only shipping software that existed
back then where people were like doing label printing solutions for warehouses and stuff.
We were like, well, how do we basically show a consumer what was possible at the time of

(06:15):
a checkout, be able to sort of understand their choice and then route that through to
the into like through the supply chain and into the to the warehouse.
So at Distach, we can make sure that that promise is kept and it was just I think trying
to match you know, consumer demand with the possibilities of logistics and certainly back

(06:37):
then most of the the courier companies we would go through and say, you know, talk about
e-commerce and APIs and you know, web platforms and you could just watch their eyes glaze
over because these are like logistics purists that didn't have that.
I mean most couriers didn't even have an API.
So the very early days we were the technology partner.

(07:00):
We brought them into sort of, you know, this this first wave of e-commerce every time someone
said, can you integrate that afflicted to us like it was you know, and then over time
they became more sophisticated and you know, I remember, you know, the guys at Auspost
when they were sort of launching their their restful API's they chucked us the schema
and go, can you give us some feedback?

(07:21):
And it's like, you know, we've done that before.
We're happy to happy to oblige right because you know, I like to think we were the some
of the spark that probably showed them what the potential is and you flash forward a number
of years now and you know, it's it's the most important globe growth driver for most
courier company.
So they've all figured out what they're good at how to do it their offerings.
They have a rock solid but you know, had to start somewhere.

(07:44):
I mean looking back to for me it was it was a solution to a problem.
You know, we we had obviously a lot of orders coming in and not really much in terms of
options for shipping other than Australia Post and Magento had no option for it really.
I mean that Magento as a platform just could not it was it had rules engine and the rules

(08:05):
engine was quite good.
It was the first platform real e-commerce platform that had a decent rules engine.
You get your bill at the end of the month and you go into bill shock because you purely
just either under charging massively or you're overcharging and as you say, do you overcharge
you then miss your conversions, you know, you lose customers.
Carpet did not match the drapes in most cases.

(08:28):
Fantastic.
All right.
All right.
Thanks.
Yeah, for those insights on so just getting back to the you know, you saw a need in you
and you obviously you feel that need but like what got you into like where how did you get
started in the technology?
I mean, obviously you've I looked at your profile, you've got a you've got a technical

(08:49):
background.
But how did you get started?
Like what you know, starting up the company and laying the foundations for what was essentially
a takeover or a purchase by a multi billion dollar business.
I mean from the point of starting it and to the point of you know, that purchase obviously

(09:11):
there's a lot of IP that goes into it and that's what the company pays for.
You've built a lot of relationships over the time.
But obviously you started somewhere and did it just organically start to grow because
you saw the need for the product was so so great and you just had the opportunity to
present and cut into these these retailers essentially into these businesses you were

(09:34):
taking over essentially what was in some instances core to their business which was freight in
some instances like if we look at competitors to say for example at the time Big Brown
Box, you know when we got talking very very long time ago, but then Bing Lee and then
so on, you know, most of these companies they don't really realize they're actually technology
companies software companies that are that have a logistics side to their business.

(10:00):
So how just so getting back to that, how did you actually get lay those foundations get
the right people into your business and and in a summary sort of get it to a point where
you knew you could scale.
Well, I've done this a few times now across multiple businesses.
So I might answer your question generically.
So the advice is probably more constructive people in terms of you know being able to

(10:24):
action in their own businesses.
So I think starting let's just unpack that a little bit.
This is something I actually lecture on University a couple times a year because you know ideas
are cheap and execution is hard right the amount of time I see a founder that comes
and go I've got the best idea.
I want you to sign like three layers of NDAs and I'm like look everyone's got ideas.

(10:47):
In fact whatever idea you're having right now I can guarantee you there's probably
10 other people on the planet thinking exactly the same thing but your ability to take.
Yeah, exactly but the ability to take an idea and sort of action it and sort of build scale
around it.
That's where the magic is.
So for me, I actually think it starts with actually setting a big audacious vision, right?

(11:13):
So I think with you know with Tamando we wanted to connect all the couriers of the world into
a single platform and be this gateway if you like and my co-founder of that business was
someone that came from the aviation sector and you know we saw the I guess the analogs

(11:34):
in the travel sector where you know you had these booking systems like Amadeus and Galileo
and those sort of things that effectively connected all the airlines and made code share
possible and other bits and pieces.
So there's a lot of those lessons I think that you could pick up and run with.
You know same thing now with Liars for example.

(11:56):
You know our vision of that business when we founded it was to change the way the world
drinks and then you know we're looking at the macro of people basically drinking less
alcohol and getting healthier and this whole health and wellness wave that sort of really
exploded during COVID and is just anticipated and if we could basically create a product

(12:19):
that could you know fill that void and give people optionality as audacious as the vision
sounds you know it becomes possible and you know you flash forward four years later we're
in 104 countries.
Fun fact we're in more countries than TimTams and yeah straight tell me that I thought it's
hilarious and yeah it's like yeah it's a nice little you know thing to tell your mum

(12:42):
or your grandma.
Yeah 100% it is it's amazing.
I think we estimate we're served at like 80,000 bars restaurants and shops like it's just
a phenomenal number.
Wow that's incredible.
Which is a blood pack that a little bit in a while but I think going back so it's I think
it's starting a vision because as an entrepreneur and a founder that's one of your things you
must be able to do is you have to be able to bring people along the journey because

(13:09):
the fallacy of entrepreneurship is it like it's one person that does everything it's
the most team sport thing you can possibly think of like it may take a founder to start
but it takes an absolute team to finish because in the early days you will wear 10 hats and
you'll be the if you're a technical founder you'll be the coder you'll be the marketer

(13:30):
you'll be the CFO.
For me I've always found it better to do with friends like you'll have it if you can have
a yin and a yang so in Tamando I had a technical co-founder and an operational co-founder and
we split the pie with liars for example.
I'm the commercial founder focused on the raising of the money and a lot of the business

(13:54):
stuff and Mark is the genius that put the liquids in the bottle so the product I guess
in a consumer sense he's the technical co-founder because he's doing physical product versus
like cutting code and I know Rudy's a PhD or level org psych right so he brings the
subject matter expertise and I bring the ability on how to scale something b2b so I think wherever

(14:18):
you can have that yin and yang it definitely makes it more sustainable it's much harder
as a sole founder I think than versus doing it at a you know potentially with a running
mate.
I've also seen the opposite of this where you might have four or god forbid six founders
like that just never where it implodes and yeah simply put it's just gets too complicated
everyone just built a different it's like an endurance race the analogy I mentioned

(14:43):
at university about this is it's like you've gone decided to run a marathon and you haven't
even gone for a run before and so you've got to convince I don't know 40 50 people that
running a marathon is a fantastic idea and everyone's dying.
Yeah well basically and then you go oh kick it guys it's all uphill and then look some

(15:08):
people are going to drop out the 5k mark some people are going to drop out the 10k mark
some people are going to drop out that the you know the half mark and you might add to
that 50 have a few people that make it to the end but we're all just built for different
levels and different stages and also I'd say this is true of founders like I'm someone
that is brilliant at starting and give me the chaos I thrive in it you know it gets

(15:30):
to a point of maturity where we're you know managing single increasing single digit increases
on EBITDA it's like it's probably someone else's joy like it doesn't give me joy I
like creating something out of nothing because it's it's a challenge right so I think back
to that it's just the vision is important right ultimately then it's about okay how

(15:51):
do you start I think it's about like just starting to dissect that vision into actionable
parts there's you know some age-old wisdom that says people that write down goals and
build plans are more likely to achieve them that is absolutely resolutely true because
if you go for example talk about raising capital because that's one of the first things you
might need to do where people fail they go oh I need five million to start this venture

(16:15):
I'm going to go raise five million everyone will politely tell you to go away but if you
say well you're not going to need five million on day one you might need I don't know 100
grand to build a prototype but you might need you know a million in seed funding to get
started the easiest way to kind of make a big goal like that is to break it into chunks
so if I look at the first million I raised say for Tumando it was like I did a first

(16:39):
tranche that was 200 grand which is like four checks of 50 and then there was another tranche
that was 800k that I think was four or five people coming in for like you know 200 each
prox right and then before you know it like you've raised a million dollars and then you've
got some fuel in the tank you can build your revenue up you know in that case we built
the revenue up to a sort of a million recurring that's a just a magic number where VCs start

(17:03):
to care because it's like you've proven some product market fit which is what people want
to see and then you can go raise money so we raised five million our series a which
back then was a lot of money like the I should say like when we started Tumando there was
no venture capital there was no Blackbird there was no Airtree there was no like industry

(17:23):
there was no startup meetups LinkedIn was hardly even around so I can tell you a story
about I had no clue what I was doing I literally got the BRW one day and I it was like the
fast 50 I think it was and I started ringing people because there was no LinkedIn and I
was literally just calling their switchboard and pretending I was returning their call

(17:47):
and trying to get around their EA I was like you know what my call is about and I finally
get him and I like look you know I got through your gatekeeper here's what I'm doing I don't
want money I just want advice and funnily enough most people just appreciate the hustle
and I'd say 50% of people gave me time and 50% of people said love to help I'm just too
busy like running a real business but most actually were pretty forthcoming with their

(18:10):
time and it's something which has echoed in me because I can tell you some some experiences
like like Damien who was the CEO of iSelect at the time like he'd literally let me see
a photo to do my first financial model and then later on invested you know the Greg Roebuck
from car sales became one of my early investors and you know like was a was full of wisdom

(18:33):
about how to build and scale something so I can tell you right now I wouldn't be here
for today if it wasn't for some of those people paying their time forward and that's something
which has just echoed with me in terms of every venture I've done I've just tried to
find who's the smartest person in the room that I can go pick their brain on and if they
want to come on and invest great so Compono which is my HR tech platform I founded that's

(18:56):
about it's coming up in five years old doing about sort of 15 million ARR so it's a you
know reasonable sort of size B2B business now you know before we even really got started
was we got through one of our early investors connected with Andrew Banks who's you know
the probably one of the most experienced operators in recruitment and HR and you know he gave

(19:18):
me a 15 minute phone call that turned into an hour and a half and you know and basically
ended up becoming an investor and being a fantastic mentor I've learned lots from him
and a sector which I had really no experience in apart from my own first-hand pain of growing
a company with Tmando and trying to find the right talent you know all around the world

(19:41):
which is really hard like you typically talk to a CEO and says what keeps you up at night
if it's not you know your cash balance it's raising capital it's finding and keeping people
which was I guess the inspiration for that is like if we could build a platform that
could you know scale the world and for talent bring a data-driven lens and to help bring

(20:03):
insights around skills qualifications and culture and help make better hiring decisions
or conversely you know if you've got people in the business and you're looking to upskill
them the ability to sort of really give them learning pathways and micro-credential because
for me I think you know that's the best way to keep people if you've got people in your
business and you want them to stick away for three years you know if they're a junior programmer

(20:25):
and they want to be an engineering manager you need to be thinking right how do you take
them from where they are to where they need to be they don't leave and certainly there's
some really well-funded tech companies that do that well organically but I'd say that
those capabilities for most businesses it's just they just don't have the in-house ability
and particularly with this whole you know Millennials and Gen Z like they want career

(20:46):
plans right like this they're pretty much starting as a as an intern and go cool when
can I be CEO.
I mean there's nothing wrong with that and you've got to believe in your people I really
do believe that you have to believe in your people but there's a law of process I believe
in which things go through.
You could earn your stripes right?
You do 100% you do yeah yeah no that's super interesting Carl thanks so much for that and

(21:08):
it's interesting you say that you find somebody who has done what you're looking to do and
sort of try and understand how it's going about and yeah you just ask questions isn't
it so interesting.
Like I'll tell you what like I do a lecture at UQ a couple times a year and I always say
at the end of a lecture like you know here's my details on LinkedIn shoot me a message.

(21:31):
Look I sometimes take a little while to come back to you I generally respond to most like
not really salesy things but if you're a student and you're saying hey I'd love to pick you
brand about X like I'll make time I'll make intros right and if I speak to a hundred people
I reckon there's only one or two in any cohort that will ever reach out and then you know
you kind of know that they've already sort of passed the first test in terms of hustle

(21:52):
because yeah look one of the things I say in that lecture is success in life is about
luck and skill.
So luck is being at the right place at the right time so to be honest if you're born
in Australia you've had the privilege of some education you're already starting with some
genetic lottery stuff going on right.
I can give you probably five billion other people that aren't doing it as well as you.

(22:14):
But skill is knowing what to do when you get some luck so this can be for example like
you're on a plane you sit next to someone you know do you throw some chat and you know
see if some serendipity might be in your favor that day you know or do you just keep watching
your Netflix show and I can tell you many a story where I've sat next to someone in

(22:34):
a plane or at a bar and I go so what do you do and they go X I'm like his luck would have
it like yeah for example I was at South by Southwest the other day and having a chat
with someone and it's like what do you do and they work for a company and it's like
one of our prospects actually for Compono and I was like of course you do because that's
just the way the universe works and yeah.

(22:56):
People are so engrossed in their phones now today Carl too I mean they just sit on a train
or a bus or a plane and they as you say they're looking at Netflix or they're looking at their
phone and they just don't bother to start conversations and I've done the same thing
as you I mean I've started conversations on the plane and met some amazing people interesting
people and it might not benefit you in business all the time.

(23:17):
It's just a yeah cool chat about something or you know and you learn it's all about life
experiences and I think you don't get it all from social that's for sure.
You've really got to there's nothing that replaces humans.
Yeah I think Bill Gates says he always says to anybody who sort of comes to him for ideas
of a startup he says well who's doing it who's doing it well and you know let's learn from

(23:40):
them and see how we can do it potentially do it better you know.
Yeah well I mean that's the story of liars right like we weren't first we were actually
second but we're first to scale so in that category the first was a brand at the UK called
Seedlip and it's a very different approach where they their approach was taking some
old medicinal style sort of you know recipes gin and Jason I guess you'd call it as a category

(24:06):
but you know did quite well in the early days and we didn't even really know they existed
because it didn't make it way down to Australia but our thought was more thinking of I was
looking coming from a digital background one of the first things I did like I was living
in San Francisco I moved back to Australia the origin story of this was you know I used
to travel anywhere from 150 to 200 days a year.

(24:27):
Wow gosh.
You know again everyone says oh being a global CEO must be really fun fucking exhausting.
Yeah I bet.
Just if you've got a global team and particularly you know this is pre-COVID right so.
Yeah.
There is just no what do you call remote working I mean when I sold the business we sold to
a French company that didn't really believe in doing anything online it was just like

(24:50):
no you come to Paris to have this conversation you're like all right so I mean you could
spend a lot of time in Paris I guess that was nice but to be honest towards the end
of that year I was just exhausted like I was you know probably the least healthy I've ever
been you know packed on the kilos and it was just honestly you're just going from function
to function to client to client you'd have a breakfast meeting lunch meeting dinner meeting
alcohol and then I remember being in the UK and just sort of someone goes do you want

(25:12):
a beer I just want a water they're like I thought you're an Australian.
Yeah we've got a reputation around the world.
Does an Australian have to be a functioning alcoholic?
South Koreans are worse though I have to say.
South Koreans mate they can drink you under the table.
I'll come back to that as another story but it's just like you know like does an Australian
have to be a functioning alcoholic?
Yeah pretty much.
You have to be an Australian like the answer was pretty much and yeah yeah I'm just probably

(25:35):
thinking I'm like I wish there was a way I could go to a bar just go I'll get three gin
and tonics but make mine like gin and tonic that's not a gin and tonic.
That's really funny I like I was thinking about this I came back and Mark who's someone
I went to uni with he was working on these liquids and like what's the idea here is like
I'm trying to make non-alcoholic alcohol it's going to be the next big thing and I'm like
I'll be customer number one for this right like I'm just so tired of having to go to

(25:56):
function and consume right because the options are either a water or a high sugar coke and
I do like a drink like you know I like a gin and tonic I like an old-fashioned I like a
Negroni like an espresso martini and none of the things on the market back to the sort
of the scaling topic were actually sort of giving me the ability to do that so being

(26:18):
a digital guy the first thing I did was went going to Google Trends and I'm just saying
right what are consumers searching?
And they're basically like is it possible to make a non-alcoholic espresso martini?
Yeah. You know can I have a non-alcoholic Negroni?
And I'm like oh okay so although there were some first movers in the category they were

(26:39):
kind of missing what consumers actually wanted was the ability to consume the drinks they
know and love just in a different format.
So we founded like we called it Liars because of it as a homage to the liar bird right so
nature's ultimate mimic and thing and Australians we wanted to have a nice little throwback
to Australia for a heritage thing we thought that was pretty cool but also it's a play

(26:59):
on the word liar so if you could go to a bar and go can I have a liar's GNT?
So it's like a little cheeky little secret.
I love it.
Mate it's so good.
It's actually so Australian.
I originally when I saw that and I was looking at the marketing and the design and everything
and it's fantastic I mean I know you guys yeah it's such a great brand and the design

(27:22):
of the bottles they all got that really real quality look about them so you automatically
assume like it's gonna taste good like if I get this it's gonna taste good and you've
always got that sort of expectation that yeah it's not gonna be as good as the original
but then you get it and you try it you think oh shit hey that tastes great that's delicious

(27:43):
you know so and I totally get what you're saying regarding the you know the drinking
and you know been to a few luncheons now and you know it's it is in the culture it is in
Australia's culture to drink but honestly you see every day something coming out about
you know the effects of alcohol on the body we had dry age a lot just not that long ago

(28:04):
and you know they're the effects on the on the body for alcohol and I've actually stopped
drinking alcohol not completely but during the week and I was usually having one or two
you know during dinner or a nice glass of wine or two yeah I had one yesterday I was
with business Western Sydney and with the Minister of Procurement and she was talking

(28:27):
about you know just just in general what's on the plan and the roadmap for for businesses
in Western Sydney and you know all the alcohol is coming out and you know you enjoy a few
but then you know about three o'clock you start getting tired and you can't focus and
you still got a lot of work to do so I'll put some notes show notes in there after the

(28:47):
show and where they can jump on as you say you pretty much can get it anywhere yeah all
right well thanks so much Carl for talking about that maybe just you know jumping back
just the whole career path that you've taken and you know as you said you had no idea about
recruitment but you you saw a need there and you knew there was being a digital guy there

(29:11):
was data involved and so on and you know what would you say would be some of the sort of
bigger sort of challenges that you've faced is it the funding side as you say is it I
know you said it's the team keeping a team together that's laser focused or pointed in
the same direction during that point in which you're starting to scale because they're the

(29:34):
ones they get you over the finish line essentially and start getting you to a point of where
potentially you know you're you're no longer talking to the early adopters and the innovators
you're now in the early majority potentially of consumers in the market if you think about
the law of diffusion of innovation you know it's interesting because there's always something

(29:54):
that you know that when I talk to CEOs and so on they say there was this point is there
anything you can put your finger on that sort of you know was a big challenge the biggest
challenge you've had so far and how you got over it look I'd say overall
probably the thematic is people right so I just say some of the challenges you have generally

(30:16):
in building your own company is everyone would have at least made this you know this stake
at least once which is hiring the wrong person and I'd say that there's not necessarily right
or wrong people but there's people that might be right for you at the right time and wrong

(30:37):
for you at the right time so you know I made a definitely I mean this is probably where
the foundation of Component came from was you know once we had our Series A we had VC
came in they said saying well hire these different roles and you end up hiring which on paper
looks amazing you're like oh this person it comes from a blue chip look at the companies

(31:00):
they work for all blue chip they got a Stanford MBA like you get enamored by what's on it
but the scary part is what's not on a resume right so like so I made this one bad hire
and a week into it I'm just going to my board saying this is not going to work this guy's
not a cultural fit and they're like oh you know you're young you're being you know you're

(31:20):
being brash just give it time it'll settle down you know three months later like can
you please fire this person right and again it was just someone that had come from a large
company that their view of executing we were a 50 person team then was just to hire lots
of people and again if you come from a big well-resourced multinational where there's
a limited budget for these things I mean that's how you execute but it's not in a lean startup

(31:43):
where you've got to be the player coach right you've got to be able to get your hands dirty
and still kick the ball right yeah so that's a very different thing and then when I went
over to San Francisco I had the complete polar opposite of this where you know I was the
vanguard right I said I'll go over and do it myself because you know back to the one
person army type of scenario but the challenge in a market like there at the time again this

(32:08):
is pre-COVID where it was still a very shiny diamond versus you know what's happened a
little bit post-COVID but you know you're going head to head with the Googles and the
Facebooks and the Apples and they've got unlimited budget right and I can tell you some stories
in terms of some of these interviews I remember there's one guy comes in and he goes what's

(32:29):
on the menu each week and I said we're a team of 10 we don't have a chef there is no menu
bro just go down the shops and get a burger yeah yeah pretty much yeah and this guy goes
oh look um if that's the case this one's probably not for me I don't want to use my own money
on food and you're like wow but that was the wave of entitlement um you know um just a

(32:53):
few years ago right I mean that was where the expectation of tech workers in the Bay
Area were and I was like is this like am I being pranked is like Ashton Kutcher going
to jump out and no no this was a real experience yeah like wow and then I had some great experiences
with um you know I started to go way further down the talent pool and then you know sometimes

(33:13):
it'd be like a really cool cover letter or something can I give them a you know an interview
and I was like there's something here but by then what I'd done is another guy went
to university with Rudy who's my co-founder Compono I was using him to do psychometric
testing so I'm like tell me everything not on the resume because ultimately if you've
made a bad hiring decision I mean for me if I make any mistake I'm like how do I learn
from it and not do it again because mistakes are fine like it's okay to fail and yes that

(33:38):
must be something which we get better in Australia like yeah I agree you will fail you will make
mistakes there seems to be a sort of like a tall poppy and yeah and then and then there's
sort of like you're stained with it for a little for a little bit and then I don't I
don't agree with that I mean I know from my early click frenzy days you know Grant Peter

(33:59):
and I started that you know and obviously she's back in the day and and I remember Peter
Crideris and I were on the plane and we're coming into the airport and it was on you
know the the TV screens I have on the planes yeah and we're coming into land into Sydney
and they were talking about how click frenzy had crashed and we're on this plane coming

(34:21):
into land I hope the plane doesn't crash but yeah I mean totally we don't seem to accept
we tend to think I'll fail forward fail quickly but I think from a seat from a sea level down
they want to try and accept it but they don't truly actually accept it 100% so I think just

(34:41):
to capstone this one so I ended up you know so tapping Rudy and saying all right like
how can you know I basically just not make a bad hiring decision again so started to
do the use psychometrics just bring a bit more data into the process and look I had
some some people I hire which on if you looked at the resume they would be the wrong person

(35:03):
I had this one guy he was like you know medically discharged from the coast guard just wanted
to get a start working for a tech company and then like but all the psychometrics was
basically like look I'm high emotional intelligence high abstract reasoning basically every you
know every market that says can turn this person into a sales superstar so then two
years later he's my number one sales guy and then when I was coming back to Australia

(35:25):
Nick was bringing after payout and I made a new trip Nick and he was like are you sure
Carl I'm like yeah just give him some options or something because if it vests you know
like he's really hungry and he did he became a top performer at after pay so so ultimately
you know that's something to think about in terms of who you hire can make or break the
business quite literally I mean I can tell you stories where people have hired the wrong

(35:49):
person it's literally killed the business so you know I think just being able to bring
the met a data driven approach in to who's coming through the funnel that's certainly
what the Component Platform does and then once you've got people in then you have to
understand what is your current culture versus your desired culture you know where are people's
engagement levels you know where are people as aspirations are you aligned because if

(36:12):
you do that a couple times a year it tells us data tells a story so if you think that
hey we're innovative and we're fun and you know where we're empowering people and the
data comes back and says actually X in this department is micromanaging and everyone hates
life you've got a ticking time bomb right so you either have to coach the manager and

(36:35):
show them through data hey you're not aligned to where what people want in this organization
or you basically have to you know you're gonna have to remove that person because it's just
going to be like oil and water it's just not going to work yeah yeah no thanks for that
it's um couldn't agree more and obviously you've got a lot of experience in doing that
and I hope the the audience spends a bit of time and as they're scaling think about that

(36:59):
massively I mean I'm just starting up in my own startup but I my goal for my business
is not to become you know some global international superstar it's just to empower businesses
and talk to businesses and help and as you said you've got to have that why you've got
to be able to bring them along the journey and you've got to hire people as you said

(37:22):
you know that believe in your journey with you and have the right sort of you know that
internal kind of drive and spirit that actually gets them to want to believe in your mission
as much as you do and it's so hard to find those people but when you do you hold on to
them with everything 100% and it goes back to that vision thing I said at the start right
because when you look at the most effective teams around the world so I'm talking high

(37:47):
performing sports team military special forces like if you look at like the textbook examples
yeah there's a very clear understanding between vision and mission so the vision might be
like achieve the objective the mission is like how we're going to do it and then everyone
in that team knows how they play their part so if you think of a sports team which is
an easy probably an easy one for listeners to do like in a team sport if you know if

(38:12):
you're the winger that's your role if you're the center that's your role and if everyone
plays their role the team works well as soon as people you know you're only strong as your
weakest link as soon as someone is not playing their part then the whole team can fail right
and then you look at you know like world club like world cup soccer for example yeah 100%
the team that always wins plays as a team and there's not a dependence on a superstar

(38:33):
and as soon as there's a dependent superstar it's like every year you see it with like
you've got like NEMA in Brazil and it's just becomes like man united exactly and the strategy
is like crush that person because if they're broken it's like the team becomes demoralized
where I don't know you look at the German or the Spanish teams most years and it's like
you know what it's like if one goes down another sub comes on and they're just as good like

(38:58):
because they play as a team yeah they don't get overshadowed by that there's such a great
analogy Carl I mean I coach actually NPL under 16s yeah yeah as well and I'm coaching summer
soccer at the Western Sydney Wanderers ground and they're coming first in under 13 boys
and it's actually to see it it's where it starts in fact and this is why I think team

(39:21):
sports are so important because you know just recently I had one boy who kind of stormed
off at the end of the game because he didn't get a you know a few minutes on I didn't put
him on but we had an understanding before we started the game that he wouldn't go on
or we wouldn't make any changes until we had enough of a gap to know that we would win
the game because we're playing to win and it's sort of when I think about it as you

(39:46):
said I made one substitution and it was because every time that that person went out that
were that were just the other team was trying to destroy that person I mean hard challenges
hard kicks and I took them out swapped them out and the other person that came on scored
a goal straight away and as you say as soon as you find somebody who's in your business

(40:07):
that is could be an amazing person on paper but doesn't actually kick the goals and score
the goals for you and then you know run back and cheer the rest of the team on and whatever
and just takes it on and personally and just walks on then you know they're not clearly
not a team player and as you said you know it's so vital to the success of the overall

(40:29):
outcomes of the business or the team that yeah it's incredible.
Awesome mate thanks so much for that I think I don't know we could probably move on a little
bit maybe we could get into actually you know we've spoken a bit about the success factors
you know we've spoken a bit about you having that entrepreneurial spirit as you say you've

(40:52):
got an idea you see a need you feel a need and I think moving on from that we know sort
of what the key sort of successful factors in a business is for the for the audience
listening you know you've got to be able to scale you've got to be able to find the right
people we've got to be able to track the right talent we who believe in your vision do you

(41:15):
we mentioned you know the failures of business and we sort of we touched on that let's just
touch on that just just for a little bit for the audience and as I said to you I think
a lot of CEOs tend to not talk the talk but not walk the walk in terms of being able to
say yeah you can fail and but fail quickly and move on and as long as you're moving forward
you know everything is fine I what are your thoughts about that in Australia essentially

(41:40):
you've come from you know you've been around the world you've you've set up businesses
around the world you've seen the different cultures I've worked for a French company
previously I worked for Decathlon and I can see they have a very different approach to
HR which in my mind is for them is very very challenging in Australia very challenging
like seeing that firsthand it's unique it's like yeah well I think it becomes about the

(42:02):
incentive structure right because the French model is if they have very high tax and it's
all but they have an amazing retirement plan because you're getting like 80% of your final
salary for your rest of your life and it's uncapped right so you have wealth tax and
all sorts of sort of things that really punish you if you're an entrepreneur oh you're making
money through accumulating capital so there it's like you know get a good company stay

(42:28):
there for 20 years wait for your boss to retire take their job and then make sure your final
pay is is awesome and then retire and you know that's why if they talk about raising
the pension age absolutely spot on bro last year they were talking about raising the pension
age from 65 to 67 or whatever it was right right molotov cocktail style riots yeah no

(42:53):
you know because again it's it's like the whole thing is work yeah you know do okay
and then just enjoy your retirement and then you retire the day you can and you're getting
a nice paycheck I mean you look at what the pension is in Australia I mean you know you
can't pay your electricity bill you can't pay it like pretty much I mean most people
need supplement you know income from their kids right because otherwise they can't make

(43:15):
ends meet because the cost of living and then you know our generation I mean do you think
the average person actually has enough and super I think you talk about a mortgage leave
I think we're gonna have a super clear because yeah I don't think there's like what happens
if you don't retire with enough super right like I think that's a that's something which
the next generation is really going to come into it so that'll be a one to watch without

(43:38):
aging you know population right so I think you know going going back to your question
there's a few things you touched on there I mean you know one it's probably failure
and then I guess how to sort of avoid it but I'd probably say like one of my biggest failures
in my first startup was like just you know really not doing good work-life balance like

(44:03):
it's I think your first startup you've got a you've got something to prove you work yourself
to the bone if we go health you know Randy Zuckerberg Mark Zuckerberg's just has this
you know this very famous quote where it's like you know work family friends you know
sleep exercise pick three because that's all you're gonna have time for and you're 100

(44:24):
percent right and I think that there's a you know it's it becomes easy to sort of like
forego exercise and now health I think as you start to meet really accomplished entrepreneurs
or people that have been it been through that gauntlet the first time it's probably the

(44:44):
one thing you shouldn't because you know your mind is only as good as your body and if you
don't get some sort of work-life balance you will burn out right and burnout becoming a
very real thing mental health is becoming increasingly something that we just need to
talk about because suicide rates are too high particularly you know in entrepreneurship because

(45:07):
I mean it's crushing for a lot of people at the moment and that goes back to thinking
you know I failed there is no other option I mean you know there's a myriad of cool stories
we can talk about where people have failed I mean one of the ones I like to talk about
is like Michael Fox with shoes of prey I mean fortunately that's a prey like he's doing
you know he's round the roundabout again with fable doing you know in an adjacent category

(45:29):
to what I'm doing with liars with um with um you know plant-based meat and doing really
well so sometimes reinvent yourself basically yeah 100 percent and I get it because you
know when you do start a business it is your whole identity and whether it whether it you
know whether you get an exit away or you know whether it fails it almost doesn't matter

(45:50):
but it's just about I think just thinking about yourself and how to be the best version
of yourself and just carving out enough time to do that and you know if that means prioritizing
family for you to do that if it's exercise for me it's like a first time I probably
stopped because I probably traveled at least 100 days a year for my whole career and I
got a covid and basically there's just zero travel and um I was like what am I going to

(46:16):
do with all this extra time and particularly when it was like zoom call after zoom call
I was just going crazy I'm an extrovert right yeah you want to be with people yeah so I
just started exercising and then it's just like pretty much wake up train or like do
some calls train sometimes it was just other things and and then before you know it was
going to physio and it was uh it's like it's like okay so how much are you running I'm

(46:38):
like I did like 30k last week like how much normally run I'm like euro and like you can't
just do that it's like maybe take up biking I'm like okay and so that's cycling back to
the physios next is ITV bloat made and they're like okay what are you doing um running I'm
cycling I'm like all right well put some cross training in and then it's like oh I can do
I'm not a bad swimmer maybe I'll do a triathlon and it's just it just starts snow falling

(47:00):
and you feel good I mean you feel good right I mean it's it's a whole etso thing right
endorphins and dopamine and serotonin oxytocin you get everything really well it's something
in in like all my companies now are remote first right and um you know during covid I
was getting everyone on strava and we were like competing and but also like it's it's

(47:21):
just um I think last year I was in the top one percent of people on strava in terms of
being active which they knew me in my early days like the opposite of that but you know
it's just I literally look up wake up every day look at the weather and go cool like I'm
doing my morning calls with the US and then I might jump on the bike and then I might
do some you know um few more calls and it's gonna be windy afternoon I go for a kite surf

(47:41):
and then I'm doing calls in Europe and you actually start to think about the concept
of output over hours yes right because so many there's so much research that says people
go into an office environment nine to five and they probably produce three to four hours
of productive work in an hour because they're going for coffee they're having chaps so just
because someone's in the office doesn't mean more they're more productive now I personally

(48:04):
think the future of work like offices uh have a really important nexus to bring people together
when you're doing strategy planning I think we're going to go to the world of on sites
versus off sites right if we're doing both first but to be honest um I think if you're
mid-career you know what you're doing you know how to execute you can do that from anywhere
like yeah that's so true you know what your job is but I think the the trade-off if you

(48:28):
like is young people that haven't had that mentorship the water cooler moments you don't
get that unless you have an office so yeah that's right I look at liars for example what's
worked really well is we've hired everyone mid-career they've had 10 years doing their
job somewhere else they know what to do so you know you give them really understandable
KPIs and people go execute um you know if if you were sort of building something from

(48:51):
scratch there would be an absolute advent uh like using AI there would be a lot of advantage
being in a cluster where you can sort of you know just bounce off ideas um whether that's
sort of you know all your own people or with other people doing the same thing like some
of those sort of serendipitous interactions is what fuels a lot of growth like personal

(49:13):
growth if that makes sense yeah totally um but but I think ultimately it's about um you
know like if you look at really high performing people it's they they understand that you
know what is the business need for me to perform and how do I execute that versus necessarily
like oh what am I going to do it you know I'm going to be there at 8.01 otherwise I'll

(49:34):
get in trouble like I think that I mean people would call me and uh when we started it's
like oh I've just got to take my kids to school I'm like why are you telling me this just
just do it I trust you just you know we all have we all have a life yeah that's that's
it you know if it means if if the most effective time of day is from 9 p.m. when your kids
are asleep and you get left alone for two hours and you're going to smash out two hours

(49:57):
what do it like yeah do do what is best for you right and if it gives you joy see your
family in the day find time for that right like and I think all employers should have
a flexible viewpoint and then just focus it on what matters which is outputs kpis make
sure it's measurable I mean the counter argument to this is if you aren't measuring performance

(50:18):
and expectations from people then you're setting yourself up to fail like that goes back to
what I said at the start like vision mission actionable you know chunks everyone knows
that okay my budget is x I have to produce this by this day like and then it's measurable
so if someone's you know taking the piss on it like either they're not good at the job
or they're lying like yeah not totally great that's right yeah I mean they're not um reading

(50:44):
someone else's homework you know while they're in the office yeah no that's so true um amazing
carl that's really good advice and I think I'm just thinking that what you said about
I've so many times I've been in the Qantas business lounge and since overweight businessmen
and I'm carrying a few extra kilos myself right and I think to myself it's it's about

(51:04):
time and and actually this year and you spoke about mental health as well and this year
I actually spent the beginning of this year just trying to get myself through a few things
that happened you know in the past and I've found I've found the only way that heals that
is time you know time with the people you love time with your family time doing the

(51:28):
things that make you feel happy and it can be work I mean like I would do work and I'd
feel productive and there's nothing better than doing something and feeling productive
you know you feel you feel like you're working towards it towards a goal that makes sense
and I have a lot of I have this saying that sometimes people think that their body is

(51:49):
just a transport for their brain you know and but in actual fact if you don't look after
that body as you said then you just when it comes time for output you're feeling sluggish
you're feeling hungover from the breakfast you know champagne or something or you know
you're just not feeling good and the second highest cluster of neurons after your brain

(52:12):
is in your gut right yeah got to feel real thing yeah no absolutely yeah no thanks for
that that's awesome all right going back to your your your experience in e-commerce and
you've dealt with so many of so many successful retailers and I think this is where you've
taken the what people have failed with the what you know what the key learnings have

(52:38):
been you know sometimes I say in business it's not always about what works it's always
about understanding what hasn't worked it's just as important so you've got to focus on
the positive and the inner yang as you mentioned and you've seen it all pretty much you know
you're dealing with all of these businesses these startups these com ecom startups and
things but you know there's obviously an outlook which everybody has on e-commerce and we

(53:02):
saw the big covert boom that we had you know the the so post post covert everybody was
struggling to get you know the numbers that were getting during covered because you know
stores were shutted and so on and you know the people who would not normally shop online
has have started shopping online and I was just recently talking to a very large grocery

(53:23):
chain about going online and so on you know what do you see is sort of like the next five
to say I mean Bezos sort of says one year is seven years in retail for e-commerce so
I would say five years not ten but what's your outlook for say the next five years in
e-commerce and where do you really think it's it's it's headed oh look I think it'd be remiss

(53:49):
of me if I didn't mention all the cool stuff that's coming with generative AI I mean that's
super interesting look I would say AI has the ability to give superpowers to e-commerce
in terms of it can probably write content better than you it can do things with your

(54:10):
images better than you can employ someone I mean if you look at some of the new like
Adobe things I mean you probably remember when you had to do like photo shoots and stuff
for physical products then you gotta go etch backgrounds and all some of the yeah now you
can literally just go give me a person on a beach with a sunset no make it make it more

(54:32):
more light more make the lighting more ominous like you can just you can just and it just
hasn't it's just phenomenal and you look at some of the other tools like like mid-journey
and you know some of these other ones that are coming out in terms of just dubbing other
languages conversational there's just so many like use cases that is almost overwhelming

(54:54):
there's also lots of noise but so there is isn't it the way I look at AI is can it take
something that or is already happening and do it better right and or can it enhance something
we already have I don't think it replaces a lot of things I think it either makes the
art of doing it more efficient like you know imagery is a great example it might alleviate

(55:19):
some of the costs to say like some of the stuff coming into chat bots and conversational
intelligence it's super cool and then I think you'd look at some of the the actionable sort
of use cases in terms of using it to better understand like you know things like meta
tags and SEO because it's constant I mean often that's done quite static and if you

(55:40):
can start to do that quite dynamic understanding how trends change every month right and just
constantly yeah so I'd say that's probably the first macro trend I think the second is
you know we're in the the time of of of social influences your marketing mix if you are thinking

(56:02):
about it in a traditional sense probably wrong right there is nothing that is more cost effective
than digital and I think the second wave of that is as I think about consumer having some
I'm having more and more experience in consumer now it's like honestly like I could create
a factory that pumps out products and it's just like literally take a cool product put

(56:26):
some cash in it find an influencer and then use that to you know drive demand to the zenith
right now so if you're doing your own products like the role of celebrities and and in influences
what they can do from a bang for buck perspective I mean there's some amazing examples you can

(56:47):
see over the last couple years if you've seen the feastables chocolates with mr. beast yeah
that is a nominal size missing now right but you know you take someone that that knows
how to do product with someone that has a captive audience on youtube one plus one equals
like 200 example sports for some prizes we'll have a big announcement on the liar side around

(57:13):
this next week so you know you know watch this space but yeah I mean certainly that's
you know it's something I've been experimenting with a bit over the last 12 months and I think
it really gives you a way as a brand so this is more relevant for those that are building
their own products building brands and I'd say you know anything I'm doing with as a

(57:34):
at a product level or a brand level now you just got to think about how can you use people
of prominence I don't want to say celebrities or influencers is more people that have reach
and audience yeah I'd say people are prominence to build awareness and advocacy for your brand
right because that's ultimately what you want to drive because there's also bad examples
of this where someone endorses something and it's just not authentic but you know to bring

(57:59):
someone into the tent as like a co-entrepreneur so some great examples out there I mean one
that I think is relevant is like on running I don't know if you know the brand on it's
like running shoes they had they've done a like such an amazing job as a retailer and
definitely check out their site and how they do their storytelling because they have all
these sponsored athletes and it's every athlete telling this story and for some sponsored

(58:23):
athletes it's like they're giving them a pair of shoes right like it's not like you know
they're giving them cash others they're definitely going to have more robust commercials and
paid posts and stuff like that but then the other end of the scale they got Roger Federer
so this is a Swiss brand by the way if you don't run with on shoes give them a go and
your knees will thank you it's you know this the science backs it up as well it's like

(58:45):
yes like this it's like if you're running on road it's like the same as running on
treadmill in terms of softening impact on your knee so you know like there's a lot of
science that backs it up that's why they've been so popular but to go back to this Liberty
thing that Roger Federer come in as an investor and a co-creator and then he's like let's
make awesome tennis shoes so you actually have someone that backed it because he was

(59:07):
Swiss they were Swiss and then actually then pushed them into a new category this is a
public companies listed over in the US but you know it's been a really cool brand to
watch because this is someone that and hopefully this is relevant to listeners I mean if you
think about it you've got Nike you've got Asics you've got some dominant Reebok look
at you got all these big brands huge yeah billion dollar companies and then you've got

(59:31):
this strappy little startup you know called on that started from pretty much nothing in
Switzerland got a bit of venture built a digital first strategy you know built some relationships
with athletes the athletes authentically said I've switched to this brand and it's great
and then they went on from there and then you know culminated with someone like Roger

(59:54):
Federer but like they haven't actually had someone he didn't overshadow the brand and
many times you're bringing a celebrity in and they become the brand and then if the
celebrity deal stops the brand dies because that is the whole identity and I just think
that they executed this in such a if you click on the Roger for example there you know such

(01:00:17):
a nice site yeah like he's used it's really well done they're constantly refining it with
colors and technology and backing it up with science like it's a really really good example
because you would think this is a David V Goliath like how could a brand build billions
of dollars of scale there's an incumbent that it's entrenched and the answer was basically

(01:00:38):
cool product great brand using celebrities and people of prominence to endorse the product
and educate and make it authentic that creates viral world word of mouth and then you know
they then sort of went up up as they got more scale and then the economics with someone
like a Federer would make sense and all the whole time they built this whole brand D to

(01:01:03):
C right so it's only now since they become a big billion dollar sort of public company
do you start to find these shoes in like athletes foot in that it was pretty much 100% D to
C up until years back so I noticed a lot of people started wearing it like yeah like with
the with um coming from where I came from um you know a lot of I would see a lot of

(01:01:26):
people coming in who were in the um running space um into into the store and I saw the
logo is actually really quite unique um and and the the and at the base of the shoe is
so unique that they stand out and that's the other thing too isn't it sort of self-perpetuating
um yeah this is look um you know I'll just I I I have like I don't have any fiduciary

(01:01:51):
interest in this company but I'm absolutely absolute fanboy um and then we've certainly
taken um a lot of um inspiration from that's one of the best consumer uh exam like examples
of a digital first it's gone global um really owned the US as well and look if I speak to
any professional athlete that's not sponsored by another brand um they're pretty much wearing

(01:02:14):
on like it's it's uh yeah it's that noticeable yeah well I noticed that you guys actually
um partnered with uh Weight Watchers yeah well we do so when I say people are prominent
so yeah we do we we we find different um um partners um to hit different uh demographics

(01:02:37):
and uh create a way like Weight Watchers is a great um because one of the things about
liars is where we're really low calorie right um we're not no calorie but we're ultra low
calorie in most cases so just doing something simple like swapping your daily alcoholic
drink for a liars uh so I'll give you an example like an traditional negroni might have 300

(01:02:58):
calories you can make a no-groni so make it with liars and you're sub 100 right so it
may not sound like if you're particularly that's why the Weight Watchers um examples
quite because if you don't understand calories and um whatnot just to make it into points
right like being able to sort of educate consumers and say hey if you are looking to cut out
I mean probably the biggest thing if you ever want to lose weight you just cut out the booze

(01:03:21):
because it's empty calories yes so I did I lost six kilos in two weeks yep it's that
simple although that was I was definitely over my my weight limit but yeah you're so
right and and and it's hard it is so hard you want to replace it with something humans
have that uh connection like there's an association with things they do during the day they sit

(01:03:46):
down they have dinner they have a glass of wine um I think we might wrap it up there
mate and look I really really appreciate your time uh coming on the show hopefully you can
uh you can come back on the show uh next year when we um we've got quite a few uh guests
coming on next year but I'm looking to to do uh continues to do the podcast every every

(01:04:06):
week now I I for every guest I like to give them uh some merch and and I know you used
to have some amazing merch at tomando and I remember Fran used to uh give me some really
cool stuff um but I've got these uh new shirts very cool you can see that there all right
I'm gonna send you one of these shirts now you you can only get them from being a guest

(01:04:30):
on the show this particular design so um now it comes in white and uh black so you tell
me what size you are and what color and I've also got one of these amazing mugs all right
so I'll give you one of these as well and uh look mate again I appreciate your time
so much and I really hope uh and I know the audience will will um thoroughly enjoy hearing

(01:04:51):
your your journey about your journey and I'd love to have you back on the show again uh
in the future thank you so much for your time no worries

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S1:E11 Mastering E-Commerce & Entrepreneurship: Insights with Carl Hartmann - Lyre's Spirit Co

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}S1:E11 Mastering E-Commerce & Entrepreneurship: Insights with Carl Hartmann - Lyre's Spirit Co