Increasing your soft skills as a Digital Marketing Manager

In this episode, we’re joined by Paddy Moogan. Paddy is Founder of The New Leader, a training platform that enables agency teams to become more effective managers and leaders. He also works with agency founders as a coach and non-exec director to help them navigate the world of agency life. Previously, he spent ten years as CEO and co-founder of Aira, a digital marketing agency based in the UK.

This episode dives deep into the practical skills that separate mediocre managers from inspiring leaders. You'll discover why active listening is Paddy's secret weapon (born from an unexpected place), and how to deliver difficult feedback in ways that motivate rather than discourage. Whether you're struggling with delegation, managing remote teams, or having tough conversations about performance, Paddy offers actionable strategies that work in the real world of agency life.

| A good leader is probably someone who listens... They're better at listening to people. They try to empathize. They try to have a high degree of emotional intelligence, and I think really, they're quite selfless in many ways. ~ Paddy Moogan

This episode is for you if you’re curious about the following:

1. How to become a good manager
2. If you're in a management role and you don't have any management experience or training
3. How can you improve your management skills
4. How you can improve your leadership skills, no matter what your professional position.

Connect With Paddy

• Visit The New Leader website
• Connect with Paddy on LinkedIn
• Follow Paddy on Bluesky
• Follow Paddy on Mastodon

Resources
Find resources on episode webpage.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Digital Marketing Victories
podcast, a monthly show where wecelebrate and learn from the
changemakers in digitalmarketing.
I'm personally obsessed withhow digital marketers sell
through and get their ideasexecuted.
I'm your host, CatherineWatsier-Ong.
I'm the owner of WOStrategiesLLC.
We focus on organic discoveryfor our enterprise clients with

(00:21):
a training-centered approach.
Today, we're joined by PattiMugen.
Patti is the founder of the NewLeader, a training program that
enables agency teams to becomemore effective managers and
leaders.
He also works with agencyfounders as a coach and a
non-exec director to help themnavigate the world of agency

(00:44):
life.
Founders as a coach and anon-exec director to help them
navigate the world of agencylife.
Previously, he spent 10 yearsas the CEO and co-founder of
ARIA digital marketing agency,based in the UK, and this
episode is going to be perfectfor you if you're curious about
how do you become a good managerIf you're in a management role
and you don't have anymanagement experience or
training, how you can improveyour management skills and how

(01:04):
you can improve your leadershipskills, no matter what your
professional position.
Paddy, welcome to the show.
Cool, thanks for having me.
Can you just give our listenersa little bit of background
about how you ended up where youare now.

Speaker 2 (01:16):
Yeah, of course it's a bit of a weird kind of journey
, but at the moment, as you said, I work with agency founders
and owners to help them be moreeffective, of running their
agencies and help navigate thewonderful world of agency life.
But before that I ran my ownagency for about 10 years or so.
That actually did SEO, ppc,content, pr, all those kinds of

(01:38):
things as well.
But I kind of fell into SEOcon-op accident.
Many years ago I was studyingfor a law degree at university
and got a little bit bored andin between lectures I was
building websites because I'dalways kind of had that skill,
and kind of got back into itduring university, built a few
websites.
They had zero trafficwhatsoever.

(02:00):
So I naturally went online tofigure out how do I actually
drive traffic to these things,figured out you could make money
through websites, throughaffiliates and ads and that kind
of stuff, and eventually made alittle bit of money.
And then eventually, when Ifinished university, realized
you could actually get a job andhave a career doing this thing
called SEO that I was justmessing about with really my

(02:21):
spare time and then got a job atan agency, eventually moved to
London and then eventuallystarted my own agency.
So yeah, a bit of a weirdjourney, but I don't think
anyone really gets into SEOdeliberately.
We all kind of fall into itback then, really.

Speaker 1 (02:34):
I know I don't think anybody does so.
That's interesting though,because I don't know many folks
that started a degree.
Did you finish the law degree?

Speaker 2 (02:47):
I finished it just about.
My grades were okay, butprobably reflective of the fact
that I was very bored abouthalfway through.
It was fine, I didn't hate it,but I realized quite quickly it
wasn't really for me.

Speaker 1 (02:55):
Yeah, oh, that's interesting.
So let's talk a little bitabout the leadership.
So what do you think makes agreat leader in digital
marketing?

Speaker 2 (03:08):
And has your own leadership style evolved over
time?
Yeah, it definitely has evolved, and I think that one of the
things that has definitelybecome clearer to me as time has
gone on is a good leader isprobably someone who listens,
and I think that we often kindof grow up and go into the
workplace thinking that a leaderis really confident,
charismatic, they're able tohold an audience, they can speak

(03:29):
in front of thousands of people, and whilst those things might
be true, I think for me, reallya leader is someone who isn't
necessarily obviously a leader.
They're better at listening topeople, they try to empathize,
they try and have a high degreeof emotional intelligence and I
think really they're quiteselfless.
In many ways, they don't mindputting other people first and

(03:49):
trying to really get the bestout of people by focusing on
them, not themselves.
I think really those are thekind of things that come to mind
now, and I can say that becauseyou know, I think that over the
years I've developed quite alot as a leader.
I was a manager when I wasworking at an agency.
I then became the owner of anagency, so I was leading in a
very different way and being amanager in a different way.

(04:11):
So I've definitely changed overthe years and learned as I've
gone, um, but fundamentally,you're never perfect like now.
I've been doing this for 15, 20years.
Um, I'm not the perfect manageror leader, and I think also
accepting and knowing that isquite important as well, because
there's always something tolearn.
There's always differentcircumstances, different people,
different ways of working, so Ifind that quite exciting as

(04:34):
well, but I think that's alsovery important not to forget
that you're never done.
You're always learning.

Speaker 1 (04:40):
Especially in SEO, because you're on the agency
side, particularly because yourclients always change.
There's always a different mixof people at the clients and
different yeah embedded culturesthat you have to figure out.

Speaker 2 (04:52):
Yeah, I find that exciting and also stupidly
challenging, which is why I dothe podcast, because it's
constantly navigating, yeah,managing people, um, exactly
yeah, and actually on that pointthat you asked about, kind of
in digital, especially thatyou're not just managing your
own team but you're basicallymanaging the clients right.
So you're having to reallyshift day to day on managing an

(05:16):
individual who may be strugglingto progress in their career,
might be having problems at home, might be struggling to learn
something, and then you've gotto go and jump on a call with a
client who might be strugglingwith the results they're getting
.
So that's still managing peopleand leading people.
So it's a very difficultbalance to have.
So in digital and in agenciesin particular, you're having to

(05:38):
switch hats very, very quicklyoftentimes.
Now, that's quite difficult,that's quite challenging.

Speaker 1 (05:43):
Yeah, yeah, totally agree.
So how do you inspire your teamwhile ensuring that you're
still keeping the vision and thegoals of the organization clear
and actionable?

Speaker 2 (05:55):
Let's be honest, a lot of people won't be overly
inspired by the goals of anagency.
For example, an agency probablywants to do good work, they to
grow, they want to be successful, um, but that doesn't always
excite individuals.
So I think it's mostly abouttrying to find out what excites
them as individuals.
What does progress mean forthem, what does what excites

(06:16):
them to get out of bed in themorning, to come to work and
those kinds of things, andhopefully those things align
with their job right, because ifthey're completely different,
then that's a whole otherproblem to try and address.
But for an agency, often itcomes back to doing good work
for clients, getting results,being professional, being nice
people to work with that kind ofstuff.
So as long as those things canalign and those bigger picture

(06:38):
things can align with theindividual, I think you can
connect them quite well.
But ultimately you can't dothat without understanding the
individual and what inspiresthem and what kind of makes them
excited about the job, andtrying to connect that with
their actual job.
And, for example, some peoplejust love selling, they love
sales.
Some people hate it.
You know, some people don'twant to ever be in a pitch in

(06:58):
their careers.
I wanted to do the work, sounderstanding those kinds of
things are quite important,because you try and force people
into something that they justclearly are not very good at or
don't want to do.
That's really not going toinspire them.
So, wherever you can, trying toadapt the work that has to be
done to the team is reallyimportant too.

Speaker 1 (07:16):
Yeah.
Yeah, I agree, I was thinkingof moments where I was being
forced to do things I didn'twant to do.

Speaker 2 (07:21):
So you were talking a lot about listening.

Speaker 1 (07:24):
So do you have and I know we've talked a little bit
about listening with the episodewith Dana Theus on the show but
do you have particularstrategies or habits that you've
worked on to improve your ownlistening skills?

Speaker 2 (07:37):
Um so, um kind of.
So my, my instinct aroundlistening actually comes from
the fact that when I was youngerI had a bit of a speech
impediment.
So actually I'm not a veryconfident speaker, especially in
kind of small groups, in loudenvironments, that kind of stuff
.
So I was always the quiet onewhen I was growing up and coming
into the workplace.

(07:58):
So I kind of did it by accidentand just realized actually this
thing that I do is actually abit of a strength, so I started
to lean into it and use it.
So for me it kind of came quitenaturally to be a listener in
the group and to people.
But the one thing that I do tryand deliberately do is often,
like you know, when someone sayssomething and you feel the
instinct to immediately reply orgive them some insight,

(08:21):
something like that, sometimesthat's not the right thing to do
.
Sometimes you're best just totake a second and pause, and I
think that can be quite powerful, because when someone's sharing
something with you, someone'sstruggling with something, they
just want you to say somethingthat is quite meaningful, not
just blurt out the first thingthat comes into your head.
So I think when it comes tolistening it's important to then

(08:41):
kind of obviously listen to theperson quite deeply and be very
present.
But I think for me Ideliberately try and just just
take a second and pause before Iblurt out a reply, and that's
that's worked quite well for meover the years, because I
actually do think about what I'mgoing to say.
I don't just kind of saywhatever.
The first thing comes to mindis that seems to reassure the
person that I am thinking aboutthis, I'm not just saying

(09:03):
something to break that awkwardsilence that we have.

Speaker 1 (09:07):
Yeah, the more you mention that, the more I think
about how I wish I couldremember this book.
But there was a author on apodcast speaking about a book,
particularly about the culturaldifferences of the pattern of
talking, and the reason it stuckout to me is that she was from
New York and in in New York city, particularly the the way you

(09:33):
communicate and support theother person, there's this habit
of frankly interrupting andsaying something really quickly
and it's all known like in NewYork city, that's like a
positive, reaffirming pattern.
But, dear Lord, you take that tothe South here in the U?
S and that's a problem.
Anyway, I'm absolutelyintrigued by this pattern that

(09:56):
you grew up with in relation totalking to somebody else and
realizing that, while it's yournative pattern and if you were
talking to somebody in your homeenvironment, from wherever you
came from, it would be fine Ifyou take that speed and pattern
of talking to a differentculture, you're going to run
into conflict because it's itcould be the opposite of what

(10:19):
their pattern is of speaking.
I don't think people talk aboutit or think about it enough,
especially since we work withglobal teams now.
Anyway, side note, I just haveto find someone on the show to
talk about this, because I'mutterly fascinated.

Speaker 2 (10:34):
It really is.
And actually on that, if I canjust share a quick story on that
as well, I actually did somework when this was back at my
second agency in about 2012,2013.
And we did a project with anagency in finland and I was one
of the people that flew to workon this project.
I was going to be there forlike a week, week and a half,
and when I got there I kind ofhad my point of contact sit down

(10:57):
with me and say, okay, so, justso you know, you've been some
client meetings with finnishpeople.
And he said we have this thingcalled an awkward silence.
And, um, it's uh, you call itawkward silence, we call it a
comfortable silence.
And he says what will happen isyou'll ask a question, you'll
present something and thenyou'll stop and then there'll be
silence for like 30 seconds,maybe even a minute, and it's

(11:20):
because people are thinkingabout their response.
And I was like, oh, I'm notused to that.
That's a bit strange,particularly, like you say,
working with lots of East CoastAmericans as well.
It never happens.
And then it happened to me in apresentation and thankfully he
gave me a heads up on this, butit was so even for me
uncomfortable, but because ofthe way Finnish people work,

(11:41):
they just don't feel silences.
They're very comfortable to sitthere and just literally think
before they respond, and that'sthe exact polar opposite of what
you just described in New York.
And put those two thingstogether, it's going to be
really difficult to navigate.

Speaker 1 (11:56):
Yeah, because I had this experience where I was
trying to talk to somebody inthe New York City office is when
I was at Ketchum and shewouldn't let me get a word in
edgewise and instinctively Istarted interrupting her and
still in the back of my head Iwas like this is so rude because
she was senior to me too, and Igot off the phone and I was
like, oh, I'm going to betotally called out from HR.

(12:17):
But instead she sent a glowingrecommendation to my boss.
Glowing recommendation to myboss.
I had picked up theirpatterning and it was totally
fine to abruptly interrupt her.
Anyway, it's just very a uniqueway of pacing your conversation
that is radically differentthan other places.

(12:38):
Yeah, and it has to do withlistening, because New Yorkers I
wouldn't say they don't listen,but it might seem like they're
not listening because theirpattern is to affirm that
they're in the conversation byinterrupting and making like
some sort of little sound.
Um, but that's not thateverybody knows that that's what

(12:58):
they're doing.
Um, and you know, being fromNew England, I think I pick up a
little bit of that too.
I think there's probably somein New England too.
So if you're having hardconversations, whether it's
about behavior or performance oreven a need for organizational
change, what's your approach forsetting that up and having

(13:20):
those hard conversations?

Speaker 2 (13:21):
and having those hard conversations.
Yeah, so I've had many over theyears, some of them
individually, some of them towhole companies with layoffs and
stuff like that.
So One thing that I think istrue of all of them is I take
the time to really plan thoseconversations and I always think

(13:41):
that a lot of people know theseconversations are coming as
well.
I think a lot of people.
If it's bad performance orsomeone struggling with their
role, it's never a surprise, sobringing it up is never the
issue.
I think it's the way that youbring it up and the way you talk
about the issue that matters.
So taking time to plan that andhow you're going to approach it
is really important Becausealso clarity really matters, so

(14:03):
being really clear on what youwant to say, because also with
hard conversations, you couldprobably say so many things that
the call message can get lost.
So I take time to plan.
Okay, what are just the coupleof main things that I really
need to say here?
What are?
I take time to plan.
Okay, what are just the coupleof main things I really need to
say here, what the mostimportant bits and I try and
make a note of those also aswell.
I think when people are maybeexpecting this conversation, the

(14:25):
worst thing you can do is justkind of like start it but not
really get to the point and justkind of like just talk around
the issue a little bit and kindof give context.
And so one of the things Iprefer to do is to cut to the
chase and kind of get to thepunchline and be like, okay,
here's the thing, it's gonna bea hard conversation, here's the
thing that we're gonna talkabout, say what it is, and then

(14:47):
give the context afterwards.
You can kind of say this quitewell by saying, okay, I'm gonna
cut to the chase, I'm gonnaexplain what the point of this
conversation is, then I'm goingto give you the context
information, then we can talkabout it, so kind of not having
someone sat there listening toyou, but really thinking, well,
okay, where is this going, whatare they going to say, what's
the outcome here?
I think that can make thingsworse and less clear.

(15:07):
So cut into the chase, get tothe point, then explain the
context, the rationale, thereasons, reasons, that kind of
stuff and what you're going todo next afterwards.
I think that's my generalapproach, whether it's to a
group of people or one personand that typically over the
years, is serving quite wellthat's a.

Speaker 1 (15:25):
that's a great tip, um, especially with things like
layoffs and restructuring, andI've been through a few of those
and I can think about ones thathave been communicated well and
not well.
So how about just feedback,especially when you're

(15:46):
addressing underperformance orunmet expectations, or maybe
even, I guess, positive feedback?
But do you have a way ofdelivering that that would be
heard, knowing that thepersonality on the other side
has probably different ways ofabsorbing the feedback?

Speaker 2 (16:02):
Yeah, one of the things that has really helped me
over the years is actually totreat all feedback as very
personal to the person when theyreceive it.
So one of the things that youoften read about is that you
should try and separate theproblem from the person.
So when you're giving feedback,they try not to take it
personally.
It's not about them.

(16:22):
Now, whilst that's wellintentioned and somewhat true, I
think, to me all feedback ispersonal.
You know, whether I'm tellingsomeone that you know they may
have done something thatcouldn't mean they lose their
job, or they've just made asimple spelling mistake or
grammar mistake, it's still themthat's done both of those
things.
So it's still personal to someextent.

(16:42):
The question is, just howpersonal is it?
And so when I'm giving feedback, I try and think about how
personal is the feedback?
Is it something that isactually going to go to the
heart of who they are as aperson?
Is it about their personalityand just their attitude, their

(17:02):
behaviors?
If it is and I may take a muchlonger time to prepare for
delivering that feedback if it'son your end of the spectrum
where it's like, okay, they'vedone an seo audit and they've
misexplained hreflang, then ofcourse.
Well, that's fine, that'sobjectively wrong.
I can tell them it's wrong, Ican explain why, and that's less
personal to them.
So I'll try and spend timethinking about okay, how
personal is this feedback?
Is it objectively wrong?

(17:23):
What they've done is a bitsubjective Is it about them as a
person?
And then try and plan thefeedback appropriately, and I've
got a few frameworks anddifferent ways of thinking about
that that I'll try and leanupon based on how personal it is
.
But ultimately, the morepersonal it is, the more I'll
plan that feedback and the moreI try and think about how to
deliver it versus somethingthat's quite trivial, that I

(17:43):
might just deliver quite quicklyapproach and conversation style
and that kind of thing.

Speaker 1 (17:54):
do you also bundle it with like next step training
suggestions, coaching?

Speaker 2 (18:01):
mentoring, I don't know, yeah, those kind of things
yeah, there has to be some kindof next step, one way or the
other.
And the next step doesn't haveto be something really big or
concrete or tangible.
It could just be anotherconversation, it could be we're
going to follow up and talkabout this tomorrow or that kind
of stuff, so but you can't justleave it hanging.
So, yes, there has to be somekind of the next step.

(18:22):
When it's something that'squite maybe personal to them and
maybe their attitude, theirbehaviors, um, the next steps
should be quite concrete butalso probably going to take some
time.
You can't just fix those kindof things overnight.
And also you can't just expectsomeone to necessarily change
who they are like.
Sometimes.
You want someone who may be abit more bitey or a bit more

(18:46):
direct with how they approachthings.
So you don't necessarily wantto take that away from someone.
You just have to help themchannel it in the right way.
So actually I want people towork for me who've got strong
opinions, who don't mind beingcandid and direct and open.
But sometimes, maybe with aclient, they may just need to
brain it in a little bit becausethey could upset a client by
being a bit too direct.
So in that case I'd work withthem to try and coach them on

(19:09):
how to keep who they are and notchange that, but also adapt it
to the client or differentsituations.
So, yeah, definitely need nextsteps.
But if it goes to the heart ofwho they are, it not change that
but also adapt it to the clientor different situations.
So, yeah, definitely need nextsteps, but if it goes to the
heart of who they are, it'sgoing to take a little bit of
time for those next steps toactually work.

Speaker 1 (19:24):
Yeah, especially junior kids with the.
You know I always say it'sreally hard, because you walk
into people that have spent alot of time on their website and
your job is to tell them thattheir baby's ugly.
But you got to figure out howto deliver that message in a way
that's not going to make themshut you down, which is the
hardest thing.
Yeah, exactly, um, okay, sowe're doing a lot of more stuff

(19:49):
remotely.
I don't know if you still arein the uk, we've got, but
generally I think our industryis pretty remote friendly.
So how do you deliver negativefeedback remotely?
That's still empathetic.

Speaker 2 (20:04):
Yeah.
So I think it's definitelystill possible, but you have to
essentially try to not do insome cases.
So, for example, I would never,never, ever, deliver negative
feedback over slack or email,something like that.
It sounds obvious, but peopledo it, and I think the reason
people do it is because they'rescared to have the the actual

(20:25):
face-to-face conversation andjust say it for themselves
rather than typing it.
So I think, firstly, I wouldsay that that's definitely not
what not to do, because itdefinitely does happen for,
especially for moreinexperienced managers.
So I think that when it comes tobeing remote, you kind of have
to take the best medium you'vegot, which is often zoom teams,
google, meet that kind of stuffand just accept well, I can't be

(20:47):
there in person, but I'm goingto have to say what needs to be
said over zoom, and I thinksometimes you can own that and
say look, ideally I'd love to bewith you face to face when I
say this or wherever I deliverthis news.
We can't be.
That's just how things are.
So I'm going to do it like thisinstead.
I think that's, that's okaykind of helps the the format a
little bit more.

(21:08):
But ultimately, I think it'seven more important when you're
remote, to understand who you'reworking with and how they like
to be spoken to, how they liketo receive feedback, how they
tend to work, because somepeople love being on slack 24 7
and very, very active and veryvisible.
Some people take themselves offfor three or four hours at a
time and go deep on a piece ofwork and come back again.

(21:29):
Those kinds of things are veryimportant to understand when
you're working remotely, becausethen you can adapt your
leadership and your managementstaff to fit those kind of
people as well and how they wantto be spoken to and dealt with
so do you do that kind ofinformally or do you run your
teams to do like a personalityassessment?

Speaker 1 (21:48):
what do you recommend people do?

Speaker 2 (21:49):
um, I don't do personality assessments.
I know a lot of managers who do.
I'm not their biggest fan.
I know that they've got value,of course, but I've never taken
to them personally, so so Ithink they're worth looking into
.
That's your kind of thing, Ithink.
For me it's.
It's about having enoughconversations with that person,
where I get to know them enoughjust through one-to-one

(22:11):
conversations with them.
It's why I think one-to-ones areso important as opposed to
group calls all the times,because it's on the one-to-ones
where you really get to knowsomeone.
So I think that when I firststart managing someone, I
probably spend a lot more timethan usual speaking to them on
zoom or on google meet,something like that, just to get
to know them a little bit moreand then to understand me as
well and how I manage people,how I interact with people.

(22:34):
But also I do spend time tryingto kind of set expectations
around their, their job, theirbehaviors, kind of how to work
with clients, and really tryingto kind of set the standards so
that when the time comes tospeak to them about those
standards they've had that dealwith them already.
They know what to what I expectof them, like, for example, for
me.
You know, I expect them to beon time to calls, to have an

(22:56):
agenda.
If they, if I, set up a meetingto send notes to the clients
afterwards, like these kinds ofthings I I'm very upfront about
and you can do that remotelyjust by speaking to them and
sending, sending stuffafterwards, that kind of stuff
as well yeah, okay, um, so alsoremotely, what do you do with
personal development plans, like, how do you help the employee

(23:18):
set it up and, more importantly,make sure they're still
tracking?

Speaker 1 (23:20):
Is it still the one-on-one?
Do you have, like I don't know,some sort of regular check-ins
that they're updating theirpersonal development plan?

Speaker 2 (23:29):
Yeah, I think actually with personal
development plans, the approachisn't too dissimilar when you're
working remotely.
I think the fundamentals arestill very much the same, which
are you have to have stuffwritten down, whether you're
remote or not, because afterhaving it in your head probably
isn't the best idea.
So having it written down andkind of worked on is standard
pretty much across the board.

(23:49):
But I think having them own itand have them update it before
you have your next one-to-onewhether that's in a month or
three months, wherever it may bemaking it clear that, hey, you
own this, you update it, I'mgoing to help with it, but
you're the one who has to updateit before our next chat.
Making sure that's very clearto them is really important.
But I think with the remoteside of it, it doesn't change

(24:10):
the approach too much on thatfront.
Again, that was happening.
I worked in an office withsomeone as well.
Um, I guess with personaldevelopment plans it's more
about, again, making sure youunderstand the person, what
drives them, what motivates them, and they're not just
projecting a plan onto them thatthey don't really buy into or
isn't really meaningful to thembut could be meaningful to you,
but if it's not meaningful tothem.
They're not going to buy intoit or take it on board or work

(24:33):
on it yeah, yeah, and I sort ofmean the personal development
plan in a positive way.

Speaker 1 (24:38):
I just realized when I said that word that there's
like a negative connotation toit um, but I do think that you
can just set up a plan forincreasing your skill set in
variety of ways with yourmanager and have it documented
and um anyway.
So I was more thinking thatthan like you're in trouble and
you have to meet these things orwe're going to fire you kind of
thing.
So have you modified any ofyour leadership skills to the

(25:05):
remote marketplace or the remoteemployees at all, or is it just
about the same?
Are there any other soft skillsthat you've been working on or
picked up for that?

Speaker 2 (25:16):
Yeah, I think, being honest, I've spent a lot of time
thinking about this, obviouslythroughout COVID, and I'll be
honest in that I probably didn'tadapt quickly enough to that.
I was one of those people thatthought, oh, it'll be a few
weeks or a few months and we'regoing back in the office.
And clearly it wasn't, and now,arguably, we're never going
back to the office properly everagain.
So it did take me a little bitof time, but I think that when I

(25:38):
did start to adapt to it, Irealised that actually the
fundamentals of managing peopleare still the same.
So for me, things like givingfeedback, doing one-on-ones,
doing personal development plans, those kinds of things are
still the same in the remoteworld versus an in-person world.
The bits that I've tried toadapt and change a little bit

(25:58):
are very much around when I'mspeaking on zoom or if I'm
writing stuff on slack, justbeing a bit more thoughtful and
just trying to imagine a bitbetter how someone's going to
receive what I'm saying and whatthey're going to hear, because
when you're in a room withsomeone it's it's a bit easier
to notice when you've made amistake or you've messed
something up or you've saidsomething that someone doesn't

(26:19):
understand or it may bother them.
That's a lot easier to pick upon in the same room, whereas
when you're remote particularlyif someone doesn't have their
camera on or is over Slack youdon't know how stuff is being
received and how stuff is beingkind of reacted or responded to.
So I think for me I've justtried that a little bit harder

(26:40):
to be clear when I'm on zoom oron google me, or if I'm writing
something on slack or an email,just checking myself a little
bit just to make sure okay, howcould someone perceive this?
How could I respond to it if Ican't see them?
If I can't see it, let's tryand discover myself a little bit
more.
So I think it's about justthinking a little bit more about
people's responses, knowingthat you can't see them in real
time.

Speaker 1 (27:01):
Yeah, yeah, okay.
So this year and last year havebeen really bonkers for SEO.
The change is intense.
Like I've been in the industryfor 20 years, I'm feeling it.
I think I've talked to allsorts of other SEOs.
They're feeling it.
I've been in the industry for20 years.
I'm feeling it.
I think I've talked to allsorts of other SEOs.
They're feeling it.

Speaker 2 (27:27):
So do you have any advice for helping your teams
with that uncertainty and changeand keeping their stress level
at an even keel, even thoughit's bonkers of the fundamentals
of what we do?
Because, at heart, whetheryou're a technical seo, a
copywriter, a pr or pbc person,mark, the principles of
marketing is still very much thesame right in terms of having a
good product and getting infront of the right audience,

(27:48):
that kind of stuff.
And I think no matter whathappens with technology and
changes, those fundamentalsstill remain mostly the same.
I think going back with SEO,like SEO has changed massively,
but it's still about atechnically sound website,
really good content, a good userexperience for customers and
building the brand up links andmentions that kind of stuff like

(28:12):
that hasn't really changedsince I started doing it I don't
know how many, 20 years ago now.
It's the stuff around the edgesthat changes.
So for me, I try to remind myteams that, okay, remember that
the fundamentals are still thesame.
And then the things that changearound the edges they are very
important to think about and toconcentrate on, but don't get
carried away with them and don'tkind of panic when they come

(28:32):
along.
So with AI a classic one.
At the moment, no one reallyknows what is going to happen
with ai, no one really knows theimpact of it, how it's going to
change things.
So let's just take a second,take a breath, not panic, not
change things overnight, justsee how it plays out and start
to experiment, start to trythings and then but not remember

(28:52):
, not forget that thefundamentals are still very much
the same and we can trydifferent things to improve what
we do.
But don't panic, don't kind ofjump on bandwagons when you're
not sure about them, don't justgo with the flow just because
everyone else is.
Just take a second, take a stepback.
And it's okay not to know theanswer yet, because things are
changing so quickly and I thinksometimes we feel under pressure

(29:13):
, particularly from clients inthe SEO world, to know the
answer straight away.
So if a client asks well, whatdoes AI overviews mean for my
industry?
So you've probably done that,but it's okay to say, well,
we're not sure yet.
We're doing this, we're doingthat to try to understand it a
bit better.
But don't think you have tojust pretend to know it all from
day one, because no one reallydoes.

Speaker 1 (29:34):
No, no.
Saying I don't know, but I'llget back to you is such a skill.
I don't know how you get youngerkids really comfortable doing
that.
But yeah, it's definitelysomething that we need to make
sure they're comfortable with.
And one of the other things Iused to do is I especially if
you're younger, you know, andyour career takes up a huge
chunk of your life and who knowswhat you're doing outside but I

(29:56):
used to see a lot where theymight lose perspective about the
larger where we are on theplanet, and so I would always
recommend that, if they're not,maybe volunteering, that might
help, like, anchor them in therest of the wide world.
Anchor them in the rest of thewide world, you know, because if

(30:20):
you're feeding folks that don'thave a home or they're hungry
or whatever the issue might be,I just think it gives you
perspective.
Not that it's not important tomake sure that your clients are,
you know, hitting their revenuegoals and whatever, but if you
pull out a little bit, I thinkit might help regulate your
stress a little, like you knowultimately, you're probably not
working on a website wherepeople are dying probably.

Speaker 2 (30:42):
I totally agree, and I think I've had to say that a
few times to people over theyears and remind them a bit that
we do SEO, like come on, likewe're not curing diseases, we're
not sending people to Mars.
You know we're not kind ofdoing life-changing things every
single day.
Yes, what we do is important,but have a bit of perspective
and that's actually a good thingto have and sometimes just go

(31:03):
outside for a walk, like, andenjoy the fresh air.
Don't be stuck at your screenall day thinking this is, this
is my whole world.
And so, yeah, I think you'recompletely right that we need
that perspective.
No matter what you do, you needto remember, kind of, where you
are in the world and kind oflike the impact of what you're
doing particularly gets verystressful as well I mean, unless
you work in an er as a doctor,then I've got no advice for you.

Speaker 1 (31:24):
But generally in the digital space.
Take a breath, walk outside,yeah, um.
So do you have any tips for howto create this is so funny that
I'm mentioning these words withthe current state in america, I
just have to say that um, butan inclusive workplace where
people from diverse backgroundsactually feel like they're part
of the team.
Do you have any tips about that?

(31:44):
Sorry, that's a lot of sarcasmin my voice because of what's
going on currently.

Speaker 2 (31:48):
No, I think you've got every right to have that
kind of sarcasm right now.
Um no, I think that I I wasspeaking to someone just this
morning about this exact area aswell, because we were talking
about how a lot of companiesover the years have been paying
lip service to this whole areaand just kind of like pretending
that they care but not reallydoing anything, and saying stuff
and not doing anything.

(32:08):
And I think, unfortunately,with what's happening in the
States now, more companies havegot the excuse to not do
anything.

Speaker 1 (32:14):
Now, just quietly, just let programs go and press
release an executive order.
It's not a lot, all right,that's my little rant, but like
it's not a lot.
And yet all of these peoplechanged all of their dei and you
know, initiatives in a heart.

Speaker 2 (32:29):
Yeah, those are the ones that probably weren't doing
much of meaningfulness in thefirst.
They might be doing stuff, butthey probably didn't care right
because I've dropped it soquickly.
It clearly wasn't a big deal inthe first place.
But in terms of the morepositive side, I feel like one
of the things that we did yearsago era is to try and address
this through our hiringpractices and trying just to put

(32:50):
our opportunities, put our jobsin front of more diverse
backgrounds, people with diversebackgrounds, different areas,
that kind of stuff.
Thankfully, the pandemic helpedwith this a bit because
obviously that opened upgeographically different areas
of the UK for us, rather thanjust, you know, the next 10-20
miles.
So that definitely helped quitea bit as well.
But I think the main thing thathelped with us was just kind of
the starting to be more aware ofit and starting to actually be

(33:14):
more conscious of it andstarting to know that there are
things you can do to takecontrol of some of this.
I think a lot of it is aroundthe hiring process and to get
more people of diversebackgrounds into the workplace,
into your company and then, whenthey're there, uh, listening to
them, speaking to them andtrying to find out okay, what
more can we do here?
What more can we do to support,what more can we do to give

(33:36):
opportunities to people fromdifferent backgrounds?
And also there's a lot of umcompanies and organizations out
there now explicitly do this aswell who train people from um
maybe poorer backgrounds, wherethey don't have university
access and stuff like that indigital skills and then with
companies.
So I think final companies aswell, it's quite important
because they can bridge the gapa little bit as well to help you

(33:56):
kind of on your journey.
When it's something finalcompanies as well, it's quite
important because they canbridge the gap a little bit as
well to help you kind of on yourjourney when it's quite
difficult sometimes to do onyour own.

Speaker 1 (34:03):
Yeah, yeah, I think it's super important because the
more especially, depending onwhat client you're working on,
the more diverse your team is,the more prepared you are to
work with different clients thatalso have a diverse audience
set Right.
Prepared you are to work withdifferent clients that also have
a diverse audience set right.
It's hard for you to market toan audience if you've got nobody
on your team that has any ideawhat that audience is about
without doing a ton of userresearch.

(34:25):
So delegation?

Speaker 2 (34:26):
I don't.

Speaker 1 (34:29):
I have not had problems with this, but I know
some people do have problemswith delegation.
So what advice would you giveto people that have trouble
letting go and managing thedelegation process?

Speaker 2 (34:42):
Yeah.
So one of the first things I'lltry and remind people is that
you're only really holdingyourself back if you can't
delegate, and you're alsoholding back the people who work
with you and for you as well,because ultimately, as you
become more senior, when youbecome a manager for the first
time, you become busier and youphysically can't do everything

(35:03):
that comes into your inbox oronto your to-do list.
So if you try, you're probablygoing to fail.
First and foremost, um, if youhardly succeed, you'll probably
do it whilst burning yourselfout and not doing as good a job
as you could do, but also aswell the people below you and in
your team.
They want to take stuff off you, they want to actually be
delegated stuff and to take onmore responsibility, because

(35:25):
that's probably what we did aswell.
That's when we were doing it,as we wanted to take on more
work.
So I think, remembering that, ifyou don't do it, the bigger
picture here is you're holdingyourself back and your team back
, but also it's a, it's anecessity for people to develop
and for you to develop as well,and it really helps improve your
I guess your footprint across acompany.
So if you go from being, let'ssay, an SEO consultant working

(35:49):
on your own clients, you affectthose clients.
You can make positive changewith those clients.
If you run a team of, say, fivepeople who have each got their
own clients, that could be 20 to30 clients that you indirectly
influence as well.
So if you can embracedelegation, it actually
increases your, your influence,which feels a bit weird and

(36:09):
backward, but that's that's howit works and I think that's why
I'd remind people to keep mindwith delegation and the the
greater good here is the greatergood for them as individual and
their team as well well, andoftentimes the things that you
delegate help your junior peoplelearn new skills.

Speaker 1 (36:24):
So if you don't give them some of the harder stuff,
sometimes you're like holdingthem back from either and like
grabbing it yeah exactly.
You know and it's funny now thatI'm obviously chatting with AI
like everybody else is I'mdeeply digging into my
delegating to an intern skills,Because the more prescriptive
you can make your instructionswith AI, the more successful

(36:47):
they are, and the moreprescriptive you can make your
instructions for kids straightout of college, the more
successful they will be.
So it's going to be helpful ifyou want to be successful with
AI prompting.
So, retention Do you have anytips around how you're retaining
people, knowing, of course,that agency folks last what?
Three years or less and thenflip over?

Speaker 2 (37:10):
Yeah.
So I think there's a few bitsto this.
The most obvious if you thinkabout the reasons why people
often leave.
I think there's a few bits tothis.
The most obvious if you thinkabout the reasons why people
often leave um, the two biggestones, um, that people probably
cite are more money or apromotion.
Yeah, they've been promoted toa higher job somewhere else or
they're being offered more moneyor both.
So I think, fundamentally,whilst you can't always control

(37:31):
that, you can't always, you know, give people exactly what they
want.
On those two things, I think,having a team and a culture
where those things are quitetransparent so, for example,
when someone knows that fortheir current job role, this is
the salary band you know fromhere to here, this is a their
potential, and then knowing whatthe next band is for the next
role, that kind of something,being very open about the

(37:53):
potential, is the first stephere to setting expectations,
then also being clear about whatyou expect of them in their
role and how they can getpromoted into the next role and
what's expected of them there.
I think those things have to bealmost like fundamentals and
something which you do no matterwhat.
And then the third part, Ithink, is actually understanding
that everyone is next step intheir career.

(38:15):
Everyone wants to know they'reworking towards something, and
sometimes those things will besomething quite big, like a
promotion or a power rise.
Sometimes it's somethingsmaller, like a qualification,
or working on a new type ofclient, or maybe leading a
client meeting for the firsttime if they're quite junior
these kind of steps in theircareer, and I think it's really
important to understand, as amanager, what those steps are

(38:39):
and making sure that anyone, atany point in time, is working
towards something that'smeaningful to them.
Because that's often when peoplestart to think about leaving,
when they're getting up in themorning and they're thinking,
well, okay, I might be paidquite well, I might have an okay
job right now, but I don't feellike I'm actually having an
impact here.
I don't feel like I'm actuallyworking towards anything.

(38:59):
I'm just kind of going throughthe motions a bit.
That's when people will startto think well, maybe I should go
elsewhere, just explore myoptions a little bit.
So I think it's reallyimportant just to try and make
sure people always havesomething in front of them to
work towards.
Everyone's going to leave atsome point.
You're not going to do this foreveryone for their whole
careers, but I think those arethe three things I'd really try
and think about.

(39:19):
So the clarity of the payingpromotions and then the idea
that you've got to always givesomeone something to work
towards in the next step.

Speaker 1 (39:28):
Right, the plan of some sort of growth plan that
heads them to wherever they wantto be.
Yeah, yeah, okay.
So this is like the 10 millionpound elephant in the room,
because I brought up in plentyof other episodes and we're all
a bit lost managing up.
I personally in the last.
How do you?
Two things, maybe techniquesfor managing up as well as time

(39:53):
management.
That was always my problem,always my problem spent so much
time managing down and actuallydoing the work that I just
failed to schedule.
Whatever that is to manage up,what tips do you have?

Speaker 2 (40:07):
yeah.
So I've kind of been on bothsides of this, because running a
company, you're you're kind ofthe person at the top who
everyone else has to manage itup.
So I've kind of seen it fromthat perspective, but also being
the person who manages up aswell.
And I think the one thing thatI'd say from both sides is it's
really important to understandwhat the person above you
actually needs or wants from you, because some people will want

(40:30):
massive details, some peoplewant maybe reports and something
quite tangible.
Some people just want a chatevery couple of weeks, you know
in to know things are okay.
And for me personally, when Iwas running my agency, the
approach that I took with myteam was look, we've got all of
these clients, all of thesestaff.
If I don't hear anything aboutany of them, I'm going to assume

(40:51):
everything is okay, because Ican't physically check all of
them every single day.
I can't physically go throughevery single day.
So for me, the expectation forthem to manage up to me was okay
, bring me problems, I'll helpyou solve them.
I want to know the good stuffas well, but if something's
going wrong, I'll help you on it.
If I don't hear anything, I'mgoing to assume that you're good
and that's it and that reallyhelped them to manage up to me,

(41:13):
because then they would bring methe, the stuff I needed to know
about the stuff that was maybeclients about to leave,
someone's about to hand theirnotice, wherever it might be,
normally it's normally it's thebad stuff that found its way to
me as a result of that, not thegood stuff, but that that was
okay.
So I think it's reallyimportant to understand what
your boss or the person aboveyou needs from you and doing
your best to try and adapt intothat way of working.

(41:35):
And on the point around timemanagement yeah, it's tough, but
I think ultimately you shouldbe spending more time with your
own team and supporting themproportionally than the team
above you, I think, because thatkind of kicks it all the way
down throughout the wholecompany as well.
So I think there has to be thatkind of balance, but it should
lean quite heavily towards.
That sounds really bad.

(41:55):
Looking down, know, lookingtowards the team below you yeah,
it's been in time with thatsounds horrible, but you know
what I mean.
Um, because that's where thework's being done right.
The people above you, obviouslyvery important strategically
and kind of in terms of biggerpicture.
But an agency or brand livesand dies by the work it does, um
, so I think that's where mostof the manager time should be
spent proportionally so itsounds like the big tip is

(42:18):
interview your manager to figureout what they need from you and
what format and how frequently.

Speaker 1 (42:24):
Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah, and not to say that I've
always had, but my lastexperience was actually
wonderful um, I would randomlywalk by with the good news and
be like, can I interrupt you fora second?
Okay, I gotta.
I got to just tell yousomething I decided, but I've
had plenty of other optionswhere I was horrible at managing
them, anyway.
So how about this crossdepartmental collaborating with

(42:50):
client folks?
You obviously don't manage.
What kind of soft skills do youthink people should work on
boosting to get better at all ofthat.

Speaker 2 (43:01):
I think that when you distill all of this down,
whether it's internal orexternal, I think a lot of it
just comes down to communication.
And when it comes to externalpeople, it's probably even more
important to master the skillsof communication, whether it's
written via email, zoom, slack,written documents, that kind of

(43:23):
stuff or presentations.
I think a lot of it comes downto that.
And actually one of my firstmanagers back at Distilled years
ago said to me thatcommunication solves all
problems and at the time I waslike I'm not sure it actually
does, but I actually think it'strue most of the time that most
problems you come up against,particularly externally outside

(43:44):
the company, can be solved bycommunicating and understanding
and then trying to, in thefuture, preempt problems and
communicate effectively.
So I think if I had to reallyfocus on one soft skill to help
externally, it would becommunication problems and
communicate effectively.
So I think I've had to reallyfocus on one soft skill to help
externally, it would becommunication and, again,
learning how clients want to becommunicated with what they hate
, what they dislike, what theylove, that kind of stuff.

(44:06):
I think that's where I'd reallydouble down If I was going back
to the start of my career Iwould try even harder to be a
good communicator in terms ofpresenting kind of sharing, kind
of information um that kind ofstuff and listening, so you
didn't, uh, explicitly say it,but a big piece of it is
listening to figure out yeah,respond to yeah, um, so all

(44:29):
right.

Speaker 1 (44:29):
So what mistakes have you made as a leader and how
did it shape who you are now?
Do you have any stories toshare about what you would have
done differently?

Speaker 2 (44:40):
um, the there's what there's, two that come to mind.
One of them is quite tactical.
That was very early in mycareer probably 13, 14 years ago
that when I was managingsomeone and they were very good
at their job but they keptmaking mistake after mistake
after mistake in writtendocuments like audits, keyword
keyword research, data analysis,stuff like that, and it was

(45:03):
really minor stuff like spellingand grammar, stuff like that.
But also sometimes a bitnervous about going through a
google doc and calling out suchminor mistakes that I would look
like a school teacher goingthrough something with red pen

(45:23):
and that I'd lose a bit ofrespect because I've been so
pedantic about highlightingthese mistakes and a lot of
these mistakes.
It would literally.
It literally took me longer toflag it than it would have taken
for me to fix it.
So I was like, well, just fixit yourself, it's fine, it's
more efficient.
Classic issue, though, that Ididn't see at the time that
person didn't learn and thisperson was like, oh, it's all

(45:45):
perfect and they didn't learnfrom their mistakes.
And the moment that I stoppeddoing that for a few weeks,
their google docs were coveredin suggestions and kind of
highlights and stuff like that.
But eventually I started tolearn and so it's so tempting
just to say I was quicker to doit myself.
Actually it's not, because,comparing that over time, I
should take longer to fix allthose mistakes and then just

(46:06):
kind of deal with it the way itshould.
So that's probably one mistake,um.
The other mistake that came tomind when you asked me that
question was um, actually, whenI was leading my agency, a
mistake I made was, um, assumingthat people listen to me all
the time, like they don't like,especially in the remote world
where you're doing zoom andstuff and people have their

(46:26):
cameras turned off or they'rechecking slack at the side or
whatever.
Um, so I think, yeah, I don'tassume people listen to you all
the time and so key messagesoften need repeating.
Uh, firstly because, yeah,people sometimes don't listen or
they zone out a little bit,sometimes people just don't
understand it, they're not clear, but they won't ask you to make
it clear, so they just carry onas normal.
So I think for me, as a leaderof an agency, um, repeating

(46:52):
stuff over and over again becamequite common for me to make
sure that key messages, keythings, were understood and
listened to.
So, yeah, maybe when you're aleader of people and you're
trying to convey something,don't assume that everyone's
listening all the time, or don'tassume that people understand
everything you say first timearound as well, because they
probably don't, particularly ina remote first world.

Speaker 1 (47:13):
Yeah, I mean, isn't that also just the fate of us
being trained by the internetand our lack of attention spans?
Sadly right, we just have ashort attention span.
I mean, when we market to otherpeople, we repeat it multiple
times.
It's like one of the tenets ofbrand marketing.

Speaker 2 (47:29):
But yeah, great tip.

Speaker 1 (47:30):
Yeah.
So if somebody wanted totransition from their job now
into a leadership role, whattips would you have for them?

Speaker 2 (47:40):
This one's probably a bit self-serving, but the first
thing I'd say is go and getsome training, because most
people don't get training.
So I'm not sure what it is inthe US, but in the UK there was
a stat last year that said thatacross all industries, 82% of
managers go into that job withzero training whatsoever.
So actually a lot of people whogo into the job not really

(48:01):
knowing what they're doing.
And so I think, first andforemost, I'd advocate for
yourself and go and get sometraining, whether it's formal,
informal, whether it is just goand try and get some help.
And the other thing that I'dalso say is when you become a
manager for the first time,particularly at agencies, you
end up doing two jobs for awhile.
So you still end up doing yourold job, which might be SEO, ppc

(48:24):
, whatever it might be workingon clients.
Because when you become amanager, those clients don't
suddenly disappear, right?
They don't just get taken offyou overnight, because you get
given a team.
So you end up doing two jobsfor a while makes you very, very
busy and probably quitestressed.
So try to avoid kind ofthinking that as a manager now
you have to do everything all atonce and trying to put in new

(48:48):
ideas and try and do all thesenew things that you might want
to do.
Keep it simple for the firstmonth or so.
Just listen to your team, speakto them, try and understand
them and try and understandtheir jobs, understand their
challenges, understand what theydo.
You wouldn't believe how manymanagers don't really understand
what job that people do,particularly larger
organizations.
I don't really get it.
Um, so I think, because you'regoing to be so busy in a short

(49:10):
period of time, keep it reallysimple.
Don't try and do what I didmany years ago, which is like
bringing in all these newsystems, these new tools, these
new ways of working withoutreally understanding the team
first.
So, first and foremost, speakto the team, listen to them,
understand them.
Just be present with them for afew weeks and try and really
get them.
Before you start running outthis idea or that idea or this

(49:31):
tool or that tool, just spendtime with them in the first few
weeks, because it's going to bebusy, so you can't do anything
anyway, so you might as wellspend that time effectively,
which is normally speaking tothem and getting to know them
and understanding them.

Speaker 1 (49:44):
That's a great tip.
That was what happened with me.
I never thought of it that way,though, but yeah, you're going
to be swamped Totally, so thishas been super helpful.

Speaker 2 (50:04):
I'm hoping that the listeners find it valuable.
I found it valuable.
So what kind of win orresources do you have to share
with the listeners talking toafterwards which helps managers
become more effective?
So I basically every week sharepretty real-life situations and
real-life challenges thatmanagers will often encounter
and to share kind of actual waysof how to overcome them.
And I'll cover some pretty kindof difficult topics, sometimes

(50:28):
from kind of you know, how doyou fire someone, how do you
actually put someone in apersonal development performance
plan, that kind of stuff, andhow do you actually give someone
difficult feedback.
So I try and tackle quitedifficult problems.
So, yeah, my newsletter isprobably the one place where I
think most managers should startlearning.

Speaker 1 (50:45):
Great, and how can people learn more about you?

Speaker 2 (50:48):
I'm on LinkedIn, Paddy Moogan.
There's not many people withthat name, so definitely go and
follow me on there.
And also my website isthenewleaderdigital.

Speaker 1 (50:57):
Great, this has been awesome.
Thank you so much for takingthe time with me today.
Thanks so much for listening.
To find out more about thepodcast and what we're up to, go
to digitalmarketingvictoriescomand, if you like what you heard
, subscribe to us on iTunes orwherever you get your podcasts.
Rate us, comment and share thepodcast please.
I'm always looking for newideas, topics and guests.

(51:18):
Email us atdigitalmarketingvictories at
gmailcom or DM us on Twitter atDM Victories.
Thanks for listening.