July 17, 2024 • 52 mins
Today, we are joined by Maggie Jackson, award-winning author and journalist known for her visionary writings on social trends, particularly technology’s impact on humanity. Her new book Uncertain: The Wisdom and Wonder of Being Unsure has been nominated for a National Book Award and is a selection of the Next Big Idea Club curated by Malcolm Gladwell, Susan Cain, Dan Pink, and Adam Grant. Jackson's recent lead New York Times opinion piece on uncertainty and well-being drew a quarter-million views.
In this episode, we explore how to navigate uncertainty and what Maggie suggests you do to experience the positive effects of uncertainty in your own life and digital marketing career.
This episode is for you if you’re curious about the following:
- You feel overwhelmed or stuck by how to deal with the uncertainty of SEO and digital marketing and would like tactics to deal with uncertainty and overwhelm.
- You want to present yourself and your strategies confidently, even if the data is uncertain about future outcomes.
- You want to learn more about how uncertainty can help you become a more creative and curious marketer.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Katherine Watier Ong (00:00):
Welcome to the Digital Marketing Victories
podcast, a monthly show wherewe celebrate and learn from the
changemakers in digitalmarketing.
Great digital marketersunderstand that people are the
most challenging part of doingtheir jobs, and this show
focuses on the people part ofdigital marketing wins what
tactics or skills the guests useto align people with their
marketing strategy.
(00:21):
I'm your host, CatherineWatsier Ong, the owner of WO
Strategies LLC.
We focus on increasing organicdiscovery for enterprise-sized,
science-focused clients.
Thank you for joining me.
Let's get into it and celebrateour victories.
Today we're joined by MaggieJackson.
Maggie Jackson is anaward-winning author and a
(00:41):
journalist known for hervisionary writings on social
trends and particularlytechnology's impact on humanity,
and her new book is calledUncertain the Wisdom and Wonder
of being Unsure, and it's beennominated for a National Book
Award.
It's a selection in the NextBig Idea Book Club curated by
Malcolm Gladwell, Susan Cain,Dan Pink, Adam Grant we all know
(01:01):
those names.
Jackson's recent lead New YorkTimes opinion piece on
uncertainty and well-being drewa quarter million views.
She's also written theacclaimed book Distracted,
reclaiming our focus on a worldof lost attention, which reveals
the scientific discoveries thatcan help recundle our powers of
focus in a world of overloadand fragmentation.
So this show is going to beperfect for you if you're
(01:23):
feeling overwhelmed, like Ithink most of us are right now
in the industry, or stuck withhow to deal with this
uncertainty in the digital andSEO space, and you want tactics
to deal with that uncertaintyand overwhelm, and you want to
make sure you can present yourstrategies confidently, even if
the data underneath it ispotentially uncertain and the
future outcome is uncertain, orif you want to learn more about
(01:44):
how uncertainty on the flip sidecan make you a more creative
and curious marketer.
So, Maggie, thanks for joiningus.
Oh, my pleasure, Thanks forhaving me.
So do you mind if you getstarted just sort of laying the
playing field and defineuncertainty and how it impacts
everyone's emotional wellbeing?
Maggie Jackson (02:03):
No, that's really important and I'm glad to
start there.
Uncertainty there's usually twomain kinds of uncertainty.
Experts now agree.
So we have the uncertainty orwhat's called aleatory
uncertainty.
That's kind of what we don'tknow out there.
We don't know if the marketswill rise or fall next Tuesday.
(02:25):
That's aleatory uncertainty.
So despite all the data, the AI,the probabilistic reasoning etc
.
Humans can't fully know.
On the other hand, we haveepistemic uncertainty, which is
basically psychologicaluncertainty.
That's really what I'm writingabout and in a nutshell, it's
the human response to theunknown.
(02:47):
So basically, when any of usmeet up with something new or
unexpected or ambiguous, we kindof gain the recognition that
we've reached the limits of ourknowledge.
You know we kind of fall shortand yet we also can sense
multiple possibilities.
So a very granular, you knowdaily example is hitting a
(03:09):
traffic jam on your way to animportant meeting and you don't
know if the traffic jam willclear or if the app's going to
tell you the better route.
That leads you to think itcould be this, it could be that
that's actually uncertainty.
It's not ignorance, it'sreaching the limits of your
knowledge.
And what's really importantalso to underline at the get-go
(03:30):
is that I'm not talking aboutand no one's idea of the good
life is to be in limbo.
In other words, uncertainty isnot the end goal.
Uncertainty is now beingrevealed by many, many different
scientific avenues of studiesto be really related to
curiosity, as you mentioned, andadaptability and better
(03:52):
decision making.
But it's not where we want toend up.
It's a vehicle, it's a path tothriving in this age of flux.
Katherine Watier Ong (04:03):
That's such a great way of pivoting it
to making it a positive thingversus something that I think,
if I say it maybe induces stressin the listeners.
So I'm kind of curious becauseI know our audience is
international.
Is this a cultural thing thatonly works in the US?
Is this a universal thing thateverybody feels, regardless of
culture and where they'relocated?
Maggie Jackson (04:23):
Well, uncertainty epistemic or
psychological uncertainty isvery much a part of the human
condition.
When we meet that, somethingnew because we evolved to need
and want answers in order tosurvive we actually have
uncertainty and we have unease.
That said and I want to unpackthat more, about the neural
(04:47):
workings of uncertainty and howit affects our brain and
decision making et cetera.
But as far as differences,there are mainly two kinds of
differences.
There's individual differencesand then there also are cultural
differences in people'sattitudes or approach to
uncertainty.
So there's actually apersonality trait called
(05:08):
intolerance of uncertainty oryou could say tolerance.
So we all, of course, want to.
My book is all about gainingskill in navigating uncertainty
and responding to the unknown.
But you know, to back up a bit,we all have a kind of comfort
zone.
You know give or take withuncertainty.
So, just as you might be moreor less shy than I am, or you
(05:32):
know, extro you up for anxiety.
Actually, you don't likesurprises.
You're more of a rigid thinker.
You treat knowledge assomething you hold and defend,
(05:53):
rather something that can becontinually updated.
On the other hand, tolerance ofuncertainty is really highly
related to resilience and tomental well-being is really
highly related to resilience andto mental well-being.
It's people who are moretolerant of the uncertainties of
life and also the unsurenessthey evoke are more likely to
(06:13):
like surprises, be flexiblethinkers and kind of even revel
in a complex problem.
So that's really important tobe aware of where we all fit,
but also it's also important tonote that it's mutable.
In other words, we can bolsterour tolerance of uncertainty
through very simple steps.
There's a lot of work now aboutthat.
(06:34):
You know, just simply it's kindof jumping off exposure therapy
.
So a lot of studies show thathey, try a new dish in a
restaurant or delegate more atwork.
Or I personally turn to openwater, ocean swimming, all
winter long.
That's, you know, my daily doseof uncertainty, because the app
can tell you everything but itreally doesn't tell you anything
(06:56):
when you're in the water.
So these are very simple steps.
And then to get to your questionabout culture.
And then to get to yourquestion about culture, teams,
companies, countries, all canhave different sort of tolerance
for uncertainty.
So we can't generalize too much, of course, but we can gain
(07:30):
kind of hints of different areasof the world or, as we might
imagine, different companieshave more or less tolerance of
uncertainty.
A design company is probablygoing to be more tolerant than
you know, like a straight,straight, laced I don't know
insurance company, and so that'sreally important to keep in
mind.
You know, if you're marketing oryou're managing, for instance,
you might want to frame yourmessaging differently according
to whether to whether theaudience is steeped in
intolerance of uncertainty.
So a manager who's introducingnew training in a country, an
(07:53):
area like South America, that'svery rule-oriented and
stability-focused, actuallyshould kind of frame that
training as something everyone'sgoing to do but your job is
safe and et cetera.
If you're in a more tolerant ofuncertainty, flexible kind of
culture, you can say, hey, thisis going to help you get ahead,
(08:14):
it'll stretch you, it'll growyou, you're going to be working
on the edge of your comfort zone.
You get the picture.
So these are different sort ofnuances in this large issue of
how well we tolerate uncertaintyand again, the unsureness.
Katherine Watier Ong (08:31):
Yeah, so that's fascinating background.
So our, our industry of digitalmarketing is definitely one
that's constantly changing.
So the last numbers were thatGoogle changes the algorithm
nine times a day.
We now know that might even bemore than that, based on the
most recent leak.
So I've got two kind ofquestions here.
One I'm kind of thinking when Iwas hiring folks for my team
(08:54):
and I'm not sure that I reallynailed the uncertainty bit, but
I did try to find folks that hadsort of outside the box
thinking if that makes sense,Because if you're grabbing
somebody from college andtraining them on this, they're
ultimately going to fail if theycan't handle the uncertainty.
So my first question is isthere any sort of way to like
vet people's level of comfortwith uncertainty?
(09:17):
And then, for those folks thathave decided they want to be in
this career, what tips do youhave for them to maybe bolster
and increase their tolerance ofconstant change and uncertainty?
Maggie Jackson (09:28):
Sure.
Well, this is very, very newthe attention, the intolerance
of uncertainty can be tested,but it's very new.
There's a lot of new attentionto that.
It hasn't really gainedtraction in the business world
(09:48):
yet, although there's a lot ofinterest.
So you can find on the internetthe short form assessment for
tolerance of uncertainty and youcould actually give it to your
employees.
I would not take it tooliterally.
Again, I wouldn't say thatbecause someone scores high in
tolerance and uncertainty.
The second point about this isthat it's not just mutable.
(10:11):
We can challenge ourselves tobe more tolerant of the
uncertainty.
But it's also situational.
So when people are tired oroverloaded, if you got a firm
that's coming to a deadline or ateam that's coming to a
deadline on a project, they'relikely to be exhausted and
overloaded.
That's when they'll show veryhigh tolerance, intolerance of
uncertainty.
(10:31):
They will, and so they.
We all should be aware of that,that certain situations we're
going to lean into jumping toanswers and disliking surprises,
just when we need to beflexible.
So that's really important andI think one way to there are two
main real big takeaways fromall of the new studies about
(10:51):
uncertainty, and the first isyou know, how do we gain
adaptability in this world whichis more and more unpredictable.
You know, if the world itself,the uncertainty is rising.
Unpredictability.
You know, if the if the worlditself, the uncertainty is
rising, unpredictability,volatility, et cetera, that you
know, studies show that that'sthe case.
(11:12):
Well then, what is our responsegoing to be?
And studies of expertise canhelp us, because now the bottom
line is that true expertsactually know when and how to be
unsure.
That's how they are adaptable,that's how they're nimble in the
moment.
One big study of CEOs in themiddle of a huge crisis in
Europe actually found that theambivalent CEOs were the ones
(11:35):
who were more inclusive,listened to multiple
perspectives and they were moreresourceful.
They actually tried andexperimented to adapt to this
crisis, which was the doublingexpansion of the European Union.
At the time, people who CEOswho thought that they knew just
what to do and you know thetypical expert response were
(11:58):
actually ones who tended to donothing at all.
So it's not uncertainty thatholds us back, it's our poor
approaches to uncertainty.
And so, just to continue further, we all gain expertise.
You mentioned two decades inthe field, and we gain through
(12:18):
practice in our 10,000 hours,and so we do know what to do.
We have these mental models thedoctor hears chest pains and
then thinks heart attack.
You know you might, in yourfield or endeavor, know about
certain situations that demandcertain solutions.
Even amidst theunpredictability, that kind of
(12:40):
expertise is impressive andimportant in routine,
predictable environments.
So when you have seen it before,when this is not something new
and complex and ambiguous, wellthen, yes, you can rely on old
solutions, but it's the timewhen something is new and that
you need to draw on thatuncertainty.
(13:01):
You need to make time for it.
I call it inhabiting thequestion.
So superior experts areactually called adaptive experts
and they're the ones whoactually spend more time
assessing a new, complex problemthan even novices do.
So you know you need to maketime, you need to wade in to
(13:22):
test and evaluate.
This is the space of uncertaintythat you know.
Basically, this is the space ofpossibility that you're.
You know testing andunderstanding and taking, and
I'm talking about even just afew minutes.
You know you're in a fast, fast, fast paced world.
I studied surgeons and actuallywent into the operating room
(13:43):
and if they took just a fewminutes to assess a crisis, they
were far, far better off in thelong run.
Those were the adaptive experts.
And another way we can be anadaptive expert is to take on
harder cases, kind of live atthe edge of your comfort zone
rather than always, you know,coasting with what you already
(14:06):
know.
Those are the experts whoactually, you know, grow rather
than just continue to apply oldsolutions.
So those are a couple of that'sa really important point about
uncertainty.
Katherine Watier Ong (14:19):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
In fact, one of the audio booksthat I'm reading um diary of a
CEO kind of talks about that,with one of his tips for being
successful was uh, if it'suncomfortable, lean in.
Especially if it's a learningthing like, lean in, just keep
going, keep leaning in until ityou know, you sort of understand
it a bit more, but don't backaway from things that are scary
(14:40):
and new, basically.
Um, so I'm of curious cause.
In your book you mentioned thatthis uncertainty creates good
stress.
So and the quote that Iparticularly liked was people
who learn to reappraise stressas natural and useful are more
perceptive and effective inchallenging situations.
So how do people get to thatstate?
(15:01):
How do they regulate theirnervous system so they can think
through situations?
And is there any advice youmight have for listeners that
get anxious and stressed whenconfronted with workplace
uncertainty?
Maggie Jackson (15:13):
Yes, that's a great question and that actually
aligns with the second mostpowerful takeaway from the new
studies of uncertainty Basically, studies of uncertainty,
basically uncertainty's angst,uncertainty's unease is
beneficial, it's the gift, so itis good stress.
Whenever I travel, I talk toaudiences and ask them what's
(15:35):
the one word that comes to mindwhen I mention uncertainty?
And invariably the responsesare angst and unease.
And that's really true because,as I mentioned, we as humans
need and want answers.
So you get uneasy.
Well, that unease is basicallyyour body and brain springing to
action to meet this new thing,whatever it is to investigate,
(15:57):
and so your heartmate race inthat traffic jam or your
cortisol levels will probablyrise.
At the same time, your brainundergoes these really powerful
positive changes.
So, for instance, your workingmemory improves, your brain
becomes more receptive to newdata when you're uncertain and
(16:17):
your focus sharpens, you're onyour toes.
And one study of emergencymedicine doctors found that when
they're in a sticky situationclinically and they felt unsure,
that's the time when theirattention was really sharp.
So they were able to.
So this is what's happening iscalled arousal by scientists.
(16:38):
Uncertainty is not something tofear or to retreat from.
It's something to lean into,because of two things.
First of all, uncertainty isliterally, as one neuroscientist
told me, the brain tellingitself there's something to be
learned here.
So what does that mean?
It's basically uncertainty isthe body and brain's way of
(16:58):
jolting us out of that routine,that kind of autopilot.
We live our days kind ofknowing just what to do, how to
tie our shoes, how to make a cupof coffee.
Now there's of autopilot.
We live our days kind ofknowing just what to do, how to
tie our shoes, how to make a cupof coffee.
Now there's something whoa newand your brain is telling you to
now slow down and update yourunderstanding of the world.
It's really important not to so.
This is why ambivalent CEOswere more resourceful, because
(17:22):
they picked up on thiswakefulness and then they waded
into that space of possibility.
So those are the two mostimportant.
And to get to that dreaded word,anxiety, which is also on
everybody's minds when it comesto uncertainty, it's very, very
important to understand thatuncertainty, the arousal of
(17:42):
uncertainty, is distinct fromfear.
So basically, when you'reafraid of your boss's anger
because you can't get to themeeting, or you're afraid of
next year because it seems likeyou really don't know what's
going to coming down the road.
These sorts of fears actuallyproduce a different reaction to
(18:03):
in the body and brain and inessence, in a nutshell, it's
basically a shutdown, your bodyand brain shutdown.
We all know what that feelslike.
We're giving a presentation andwe feel this angst and you feel
like you're shutting down, notrising to the moment, because
you're going into survival modeand your brain actually blood
begins to funnel away from thebrain.
(18:23):
So how can we kind of avertthat, not go down that road of
anxiety?
How can we go into the arousaland wakefulness?
Well, first of all, understandit sounds really simplistic, but
hey, understand that the worldis always going to be changed,
it's always about change.
So if our default mode is think, oh gosh, I wish this Monday
(18:48):
morning meeting was just thesame thing and I'm not going to,
you know, I wish the week was,you know completely, nothing
ever happened, and you know,then you're basically tuning out
of that arousal, you're notpicking up on the signal that
uncertainty is giving you, soyou're not picking up on changes
in your environment.
And the second thing we can dois to, in order to harness this
(19:10):
arousal, this wakefulness, is todial back on outcome fixation
Now.
So that's basically.
I mean this.
Studies in sports and in, youknow, giving tough presentations
and all sorts of challengingsituations, find that when
people focus on the outcome, inother words, what's in it for me
, or, more commonly, I think I'mgonna fail or the audience
(19:34):
doesn't like this presentation,that's an outcome fixation that
removes our attention away fromthe process of gaining a good
outcome.
So your mind is elsewhere,you're putting the cart before
the horse, and that's reallyimportant to just stop that.
And so one way to do that is toget very present oriented
(19:55):
during challenging situations,and so top athletes actually use
things something called cuewords, a very simple little
trick.
It's a personal mantra.
In the middle of a tryingsituation, you just have a
little mantra.
You might say focus now toyourself.
Or you might say be now, andthat's actually proven to help
(20:17):
you become more engaged in themoment, more alert, and then do,
and it enhances performance.
So that all has to do withseeing uncertainty as good
stress, picking up on it,leaning into it, seeing that the
world is always going to befull of change.
Then you're on your toes ratherthan retreating away.
(20:38):
From that kind of performancemode you need.
Katherine Watier Ong (20:42):
Well, and it sounds like meditation might
be a little bit there too,because that'll help you
maintain the present.
This resonates a lot with me.
I do.
I think I've told this peopleon the podcast before, but I do
a weekly check-in, check-outjust to manage my life every
week, and one of the things is Ipicked this up from somewhere
else, but there you have like aword, motivational word for the
week.
Mine, without fail, neverchanges.
(21:03):
It's always the same, but it'sone step at a time.
So it's not one word, mind you,but it's just reminding me that
I can't look at the whole thing.
I'm just going to pick one, onestep at a time, then do the
next step.
That, personally, reigns in myoverwhelm.
Maggie Jackson (21:21):
Yeah, that's perfect, and that's basically
allowing yourself to be inuncertainty.
So then you can perform and andbe, you know, kind of navigate,
harness the best of uncertainty, rather than kind of wishing it
were over.
Katherine Watier Ong (21:37):
Right, Right, Cause it's it's.
I'm in a space where it's notgoing to be over.
No, no.
Maggie Jackson (21:44):
One, one leading psychologist, one world's
leading psychologist on anxiety,michelle Dugas of Canada, said
to me you know, put it verypithily, if you have difficulty
dealing with uncertainty, youhave difficulty dealing with a
life.
Katherine Watier Ong (21:59):
Yeah, I know, I think it was very
heartbreaking.
I weirdly remember as a kidwhen I realized that life is
always changing.
I have, like this childhoodmemory of being very sad.
I forget how old I was, but Ireally wanted things to be
stable.
I'm going to guess it's eight,because I particularly liked
being eight for some reason.
But that's not true.
(22:19):
Like you always change, yougrow, you go through puberty,
you go to a different school,like stuff's changing all the
time.
Through puberty, you go to adifferent school, like stuff's
changing all the time.
Um, though, possibly I havemore, uh, patients with
uncertainty Cause I I discoveredearly on with jobs where it was
the same thing every day.
I got horribly bored.
So I'm on the other end.
I like new challenges, justpersonally, um.
(22:41):
And so what I found interestingis cause.
Maybe this gets back to likevetting vetting your employees
because one of the things that Idid with team members is that I
, if you were interviewing forme, coming from college, you
have no idea what SEO is.
I would give you a screenshotof Google analytics and say what
(23:01):
can you get from thisinformation?
What would your next questionbe?
Trying to tap into thatcuriosity, because if you can't
take a leap of like, you know,if you can't be curious about it
, you're just not going to be agood fit for the industry.
But what I found interestingwith your book is you said that
this uncertainty is the key tocuriosity.
So can you tell me a little bitmore about that, because I
(23:21):
think that was fascinating.
Maggie Jackson (23:23):
Yeah, no, it's really interesting and it also
also kind of lends itself towhat is the personality that
best you know who best navigatesuncertainty and who is you know
that goes hand in hand with whois the curious person, as
you're saying, because you know,just to.
You know kind of sink into whatwe had been talking about.
(23:43):
If you can, you know, open upto the world with curiosity and
wonder rather than fear, and youknow sort of anxiety, then
you're going to just do a betterjob, day by day, minute by
minute.
So there's a lot of work now oncuriosity and there are a lot
of different types of curiosityand they're all studying all
sorts of different interestingthings that have never been
(24:04):
explored before.
You know, for instance, thereare different styles of
curiosity.
Some people have this pinpointstyle called the hunter and they
go after you know that theywant the answer to X question
and that's really a valid.
And then at the same timepeople also can sort of lean
toward this busy buddy kind ofcurious.
They're just interested ineverything.
(24:26):
I know personally as a reporterand a journalist.
That's a really good thing tobe as a journalist and most
people are kind of a blend ofthe two.
But the one thing that allcurious people have in common is
tolerance for the stress of theunknown.
So really closely related tothat tolerance of uncertainty,
but kind of tolerating the goodstress, seeing the benefits.
(24:47):
So really closely related tothat tolerance of uncertainty,
but kind of tolerating the goodstress, seeing the benefits.
So the people who tolerate thestress of uncertainty are
actually the ones who areactively curious.
You can be curious and like, oh, I wonder about this, but not
actually do much about it.
Those who are able to toleratethe awkwardness or the sort of
(25:07):
possibly's really fascinating.
Most fascinating is thistolerance of the stress of
(25:28):
uncertainty is the facet ofcuriosity.
That's most related to wellbeing.
So people who can you know,actively explore, who can raise
their hand and ask a difficultquestion, etc.
Etc.
Those are the people who havehigher well being, more life
satisfaction.
Those are the people who havehigher well-being, more life
(25:49):
satisfaction.
They are just better offmentally in life.
And because?
Why?
Because they're open to all oflife, not just the good but also
the bad.
They're open to the frontiersof what they don't know and they
just continually to push intothat.
So it's I think it's reallyinteresting to link uncertainty
(26:11):
and resilience and wellbeing.
The other thing that's reallyrelated is that people who go
through sort of experiments ortherapy actually targeted
therapy to bolster theirtolerance of uncertainty
actually they have moreresilience.
So all of this, you can see, ishighly related to each other.
(26:33):
If you can be open touncertainty, you can be curious,
and if you're curious and opento uncertainty, then you are
more nimble.
And that's what a lot of peopletell me, because there's a lot
of work going on in business, inmedicine and all sorts of
different sectors about this.
Uh, try boosting people's uhability to navigate uncertainty.
(26:55):
Uh, people constantly use thesame word when they begin to
understand this, they say it'sliberating.
Katherine Watier Ong (27:03):
That's, that's a really powerful word
liberating so that's that's areally powerful word liberating.
So that's so interesting CauseI on the show, I'm definitely
dancing around this idea ofresilience Like how do you
become more resilient?
And you're just approaching itfrom a sort of a different
perspective for anyone listening.
We actually had Lloyd Lobo ontalking about the power of
community to also give you moreresilience.
So if you're, if you yourselfare also curious about how to
(27:27):
build your resilience, Iencourage you to check out that
episode.
So I just want to circle backaround to the nitty gritty of
what goes on in this industry.
So oftentimes things arechanging under our feet and we
need to appear confident whenproviding recommendations.
First of all, I have to come upwith recommendations, and then
(27:47):
we have to be confident, andthen the data underneath it
might be horribly incomplete,because the tools we use don't
tell us the whole picture, andso, as much as we try to get the
whole picture honestly in theback of our head, we know that
it's missing some stuff.
So how do you handle?
Do you have any recommendationsabout how to handle that from
(28:08):
your research?
What strategies or mindsets canhelp people be more confident
in that particular moment?
Maggie Jackson (28:27):
is often seen as weakness, as inertia, when
actually it's the fear ofuncertainty that's more highly
related to inertia.
Uncertainty is seen as weaknessin leaders and in expertise,
but that's not the case at all.
The research doesn't show us.
It's the opposite, actually.
So I think there are two coupleimportant points.
First of all, today we'rereally under pressure very often
in this quick answer, quick fixkind of tech-oriented
(28:53):
environment, to be confident.
Unwarranted confidence iswhat's demanded, in other words,
confidence that's immediate,confidence that's ultra-sure,
and that's actually not going togain us the better answer.
You know, I was at oneconference and executives were
saying well, we need to be quick, we uncertainty slows you down,
(29:14):
and yes, it slows you downbriefly, as I mentioned.
But at the same time,uncertainty gives you the better
answer, not just any old answer, it allows you to get to the
better answer.
And where does confidence haveto do that?
Well then, you're gaining akind of solid confidence, a
confidence on knowing the ropes.
You can't know everything, asyou mentioned, but you can know
(29:37):
the situation, you canunderstand what you're coping
with.
That's a solid kind ofconfidence.
Now, at the same time, it'simportant although we all want
to be confident and we should beconfident in our answer.
But in a client situation or amanagement situation, it's
really important to understandthat expressions of uncertainty
(29:59):
are not bad.
In fact, they're actuallyhighly beneficial.
For instance, expressions ofuncertainty are persuasive,
believe it or not.
Now, we wouldn't think that thedoctor or the SEO expert who
says they're not sure of theanswer would be persuasive.
But it's true as long as it'slinked to potential.
(30:21):
So you wouldn't want the doctorto walk into the room and say I
really don't know what to dowith your case, or the SEO
experts the same of the client.
But what you can do is link itto potential.
For instance, the doctor cansay I'm not sure, but I have
resources or colleagues who canhelp me and we're going to
figure this out.
(30:41):
There's potential there.
Or you can say plan A, our nextmarketing strategy plan is you
know, we're not 100% sure thatthis is going to be guaranteed
successful, but we have a lot ofthe evidence that shows it
likely will be and there's a lotof potential there.
People respond really wellbecause it's plausible, because
(31:04):
it's persuasive, and the otherthing that it's really important
to understand is that the wordswe use.
I think the more I immersemyself in uncertainty the more I
see this kind of culture,addicted to using certainty
words.
You know that's for sure andabsolutely.
(31:38):
Those are actually not seen asprofessional in workplace
situations when used byexecutives and studies out of
Harvard as making people seemmore professional, more
approachable, you know, just asauthoritative and yet more human
to deal with, which is a verygood thing.
And these words do two things.
Linguistically, if I use theword maybe, it signals to you
(32:02):
that there's something more toknow, which is very important.
If you're working together, youreally need to know where your
knowledge ends and where youneed to do further work.
The second thing is that theword maybe and these other hedge
words indicate that you arereceptive to another person's
(32:23):
perspective, which is also very,very important today,
especially in a divisive societyand divisive workplaces.
So these little granular wordslike maybe and that would be in
contrast to you know, obviously,or you know you're wrong or
therefore those are the oppositeof hedge words.
(32:43):
Then they are not persuasiveand they don't help.
You appear to be someone whoeverybody wants to work with.
So those are some granular tipsand strategies for how to be
confident while also beingstrategically unsure.
Katherine Watier Ong (33:00):
I just I need to have an episode about
what words you should and shouldnot use.
I'm just utterly fascinatedwith ones that are more
persuasive versus not, and howto train yourself to use the
ones that are more effective.
As just a side note, I find itvery fascinating.
So let's pivot for a second andtalk about this team dynamic.
So in your book you've talkedabout this, and we haven't
(33:23):
talked about it much yet on theshow, but that fostering a
culture of uncertainty is goingto lead you to better outcomes,
basically, and so can you talk alittle bit more about the value
of that and how to build a teamthat can handle uncertainty?
Maggie Jackson (33:39):
Yes, yes, no.
It's really important tounderstand that uncertainty is
not a solo act, that we can beunsure productively together.
And in fact, very, very newresearch shows that uncertainty
is the foundation, it's kind ofthe bedrock of excellence in
group collaboration and teamwork, and this is true of Supreme
(34:01):
Court justices or climber MountEverest expeditions or workplace
teams.
So it runs the gamut and so youknow.
Of course, to back up or topreface, it's very often seen as
agreement is what we all wantto strive for and of course you
(34:21):
know again, that should be theend goal, but it really
shouldn't be the norm in a team.
When a team is in agreement,when a team agrees, even no
matter how diverse that team is,they start to lose sight of
individual differences,different levels of knowledge,
expertise.
They lose what's called thehidden profile of what each
(34:43):
individually knows and theybegin to most often talk about
what everybody already knows.
Maybe that'll ring some bellsfrom your audience.
You sit around and talk aboutwhat everybody knows and you're
not going to progress.
Teams that are in agreement arealso less accurate and less
creative and the discussions aremore shallow and cursory.
That's what happens when we'retrying to get on the same page
(35:05):
and stay there, whereas teamsthat are disagreeing who you
know productively, respectfully,micro conflicts it's often
called, those are the ones thathave more intense discussions,
that surface this hiddeninformation, that are more
accurate, creative, etc.
Etc.
Now so the question is how Well?
I studied a deep dive in theMars Exploration Rover team,
(35:29):
which is considered one of themost innovative in space history
.
They were an amazing team,diverse in all ways, and they
basically were highly successfulputting those robots on Mars,
discovering water, et cetera, etcetera.
Because they constantlycultivated disagreement.
And why?
(35:49):
In order to gain uncertainty.
So this is what happens whenyou're disagreeing.
In today's polarized world, weoften assume that, oh, a
disagreement is good if theright side wins, or disagreement
is good if that dissentingvoice has the right answer and
everybody follows behind.
(36:10):
But that's not actually how thebest collaboration works.
When there's disagreement,actually what should happen is
that the disagreement spurs,sparks, uncertainty, and then
there's a whole new dynamic ofcurious and skeptical, intense
(36:30):
kind of discussions and allthose performance gains.
Well, how do we know thatuncertainty is so important?
Because even dissenting ordisagreeing voices that are
wrong actually end up with theseperformance gains.
Somebody can be wrong, but it'sthe jolting the group off the
assumptions and sparking theuncertainty that lets people
(36:51):
know what they don't know, andthe gains are just stunning.
It's really amazing.
And in this Mars rover team, 20%of their conversations remote,
virtual side-by-side, all sortsof conversations involve micro
conflicts and they often usethose hedge words, maybe
sometimes things like that Idon't know that, things like
(37:14):
that but also 100% of the microconflicts involve expressions of
uncertainty.
So one one page we can take awayfrom this Mars team, which is
absolutely fascinating, was sohighly studied, is they had
something the time would saydoes anyone have anything they
(37:49):
disagree with and is thereanything that someone doesn't
know?
In other words, raise your handand say I don't understand or I
disagree.
And they kept to that listeningritual and it was.
That was one of the moreimportant ways, means of their
success.
So it's absolutely fascinating.
So I think I call this gaininguncommon ground and basically
(38:13):
you know what we want to do, todo right by our teams, is to not
only accept disagreement andthen the resulting uncertainty,
but also to offer it ourselvesand not see that, as you know,
the person who disagrees orengenders uncertainty shouldn't
be seen as a pain in the neck.
They should be the hero of thegroup, really.
Katherine Watier Ong (38:35):
You're just reminding me why, when I
was in an agency, I hatedbrainstorming sessions.
Because the agency I was at Iwould be the one coming with a
unique perspective, because Iwas the only digital one sitting
there and I was always shutdown and the brainstorming
sessions were always aboutfinding the one thing everybody
agreed on and it just felt likeit was not brainstorming per se.
(38:56):
There was no new ideas, anyway,especially since I was coming
with new ideas and shut down.
Anyway, that's just fascinatingand I love the tips about how
to close out the meeting to makesure you're keeping that
curiosity, basically.
So the other thing I want toflip to, because you mentioned
just a little bit so we've gotI'm a little bit concerned about
the future in general.
(39:16):
So, if we go a little bit meta,obviously the world is uncertain
.
We're in a pandemic, we'rewatching the bird flu thing,
we've got climate change.
So, beyond even just theindustry, life's a bit uncertain
for sure.
And on top of that, we knowthat online everybody's
(39:37):
experience is personalized tothem.
So you know, I've mentioned onthe show, I think, the filter
bubble, which is all about thefact you're only going to get
opinions that confirm what youthink, because social media
platforms, you know,personalized to you, so to
search.
So I'm kind of concerned aboutwhere we're going, because you
just talked about how, in orderto get to a better outcome, we
(39:57):
actually need this diversity.
So do you want to talk a littlebit about how, maybe, if we
just pull it down to theindividual level, if you're an
educated person, what can you doto make sure you're not too
filtered?
And you've got this broadperspective.
Maggie Jackson (40:15):
Right, yeah, no, that's important because in
talking about workplace teamsand collaboration through
disagreement and uncertainty,I'm really talking about, you
know, kind of progressing orcollaborating with so-called our
side, even amidst diversity.
We want to not rest only in theknown, in other words, not just
(40:37):
hang around with people like us.
You might be bonded with yourteam and still able to be
uncertain.
You might be still able toengender that disagreement that
puts you forward.
Or there's someone who's eventhe opposite sports team, across
the stadium, or the personacross, you know, in your
(41:03):
neighbor, whose politics youloathe.
These are the bridges that wealso need to make.
This is also where theopen-mindedness of uncertainty
can really help us today.
So, in the meta view, you know,we really need to understand
you know the people the otherside, to understand you know the
people the other side, so tospeak, through gaining more
uncertainty.
(41:23):
Because, basically, the humansare, you know, we evolved to
need and want answers.
We also evolved to categorize.
Even when you see a face ofsomeone, either online or, you
know, down the street eitheronline or down the street
unconsciously your brainassesses within milliseconds
whether that person is in-groupor out-group, like you or not
(41:45):
like you, and from there thebrain begins to quiet in these
complex, interesting ways.
When your brain sees someonethey deem out-group, they begin
to quiet down and so they becomeless like an individual.
So this categorization sociallyis very, very dangerous, leads
to dehumanization andmisunderstandings at the very
(42:08):
least, and the polarization wesee today.
One way again we can joltourselves out of that
unconscious categorization iswell, two ways.
One is first of all to try toactively, deliberately, see
another person as an individual.
You know, studies show thatagain, this could be true.
(42:29):
Even if you know you weretalking about being the only
person from digital in thesemeetings, well, they probably
categorized you as, oh, thatperson from digital, and we say,
oh, that person from accounting.
We could do this in theworkplace just as easily and say
to ourselves well, let's thinkabout who Joe is or Sally is or
(42:51):
whoever they are, rather thanthe person from the, from the,
you know accounting or whatever.
The second really powerful wayto both lower prejudice and also
to gain a kind of the space formutual learning that
uncertainty gives us issomething called perspective
taking.
I mean, that's just kind ofyour grandmother's folk wisdom,
(43:13):
you know, thinking about theworld through their eyes.
Now, this is not empathy, it'snot how do they feel, but it's
really.
What does the world look likethrough the eyes of a
90-year-old if you're 30?
Or through the eyes of a youknow X party political party if
you're from Y political party?
And that little bit of leap ofimagination actually makes
(43:36):
people more likely to worktogether, to want to sit closer
together, even if they're reallyyou know, outcasts in society,
like a convicted felon or a drugaddict, etc.
And it really kind of matches.
What Socrates tried to teach along time ago, at the dawn of
(43:59):
the democracy, was that thatperspective taking is just a
leap of imagination.
You really don't know what theythink or how they see the world
through their eyes, but by doingso you're in some ways, I think
, seeking, you're basicallyself-induced arousal is how I
(44:19):
describe it.
You're basically moving awayfrom that easy, complacent
categorization and you'resuddenly waking up to the fact
that maybe there's something youdon't know about them.
That sets the stage for theengagement that allows us to
learn from each other,engagement that allows us to
learn from each other.
(44:39):
So it's a really importantsimple little tactic that people
are now that is getting a lotof scientific attention and is
being used in politicalcampaigns.
As activists talk to oppositionvoters on, you know, lgbtq
rights, they're using this as acore of a way to help people
lower prejudice on both sides.
(44:59):
The activist, you know, mighthave prejudice against the
opponent and the opponent hasprejudice against them or closed
mindedness.
This helps open both minds andthen they can talk, which is
golden.
Katherine Watier Ong (45:14):
Those are great tips.
So we're we're just about outof time.
I actually have just a few morequestions.
The first one is we have thisthing called artificial
intelligence, right?
That's sort of taking over ourindustry, both automation and AI
.
Do you have just?
What is your opinion about howthat's going to impact our
future, Because I know you talkabout it a little bit in the
(45:36):
book.
Maggie Jackson (45:37):
Oh yes, it's a very complicated and it's you
know.
Talk about change.
It's changing, you know, by themillisecond as we speak.
But one thought I have is thatwe have to be very, very careful
that AI doesn't do what mosttechnologies have done in the
history of human technologies,which is human.
You know, machine age onwardstechnology.
(46:01):
So I'm not talking about thestick or the ax, I'm talking
about the machine onwards tocomputers, and that's induced
automation bias.
Whenever a human is working witha machine, they become
complacent.
Basically, it happens withpilots, it happens as we search
the web, it happens in hospitals.
We become complacent.
(46:22):
We then allow the machine to dothe work for us.
I think I see very many signsthat that's happening with AI
It'll do the work for us so wecan just kind of go asleep at
the wheel.
In fact, many, many accidentswith self-driving cars are
because the human in the betatest, who was supposed to be
there alert and ready, basicallyjust was watching a movie or
(46:44):
something like that.
They just abdicated allresponsibility to a machine that
wasn't ready for it.
I think that's one reallyimportant trend to watch.
It's also really fascinatingand I do write about this to
understand that AI hastraditionally been founded and
created on a very narrowdefinition of intelligence the
(47:07):
rationalist Western idea that anintelligent being achieves
one's goals.
As you can see from that briefdefinition, it means process
goes out the window.
It means AI is built to dosomething with the leading minds
in AI, to redefine AI,basically to make the robots and
(47:43):
models more unsure of theirgoals.
So if you tell your housekeeperrobot to fetch coffee down the
street, traditional AI will justdo it.
They might plow down someone,they might go the fastest route
to get the most expensive copyand unsure robot and I tested
one at the Virginia Tech and itwas fascinating will actually be
(48:05):
teachable.
They'll ask you questions,they'll show you multiple
scenarios and they're seen asmore smart and as more
cooperative by humans who aretesting them.
So there's a trend to watch forus.
I think the bottom line isuncertainty, with its capacity
to help us be engaged andwakeful and also its provision
(48:32):
of this space of possibilitiesby allowing us to slow down.
Uncertainty really equips us tobe in control in fluid and
flexible ways, to be nimble, andthat's where we need to be if
we're going to be cooperatingwith, working, with
collaborating with ultra, ultrasmart machines and also, I'm
(48:55):
sure, ai is our best hope.
Many people think for having AIbe stoppable instead of going
completely out of control.
Katherine Watier Ong (49:05):
That would be the other uncertainty thing
that's lingering in our head,right Not to get too existential
Right, right it might come forus seriously.
So this has been a fascinatingconversation.
I loved reading the book.
I just have the last couple ofquestions, which is do you have
any resources you want to sharewith the audience today?
And then, how can people learnmore about you?
Maggie Jackson (49:26):
Sure, and I think I can answer two questions
in one.
I would go send people to mywebsite, maggie-jacksoncom.
Just Google Maggie Jackson, ununcertain or my previous book
distracted, you'll find me andyou'll find a lot of resources
there many, many articles,podcasts, interviews and some
granular things.
I'm just about to post a quizon readers guide, quiz developed
(49:52):
as a by the next big idea clubClub and on the website, and so
you'll find a lot of resourcesto help you learn about
uncertainty and then harness itand navigate it well in your own
life.
Katherine Watier Ong (50:04):
Awesome, this has been great.
Thank you so much for being onthe show.
Thank you, my pleasure.
Thanks so much for listening.
To find out more about thepodcast and what we're up to, go
to digitalmarketingvictoriescomand, if you like what you heard
, subscribe to us on iTunes orwherever you get your podcasts.
Rate us, comment and share thepodcast please.
I'm always looking for newideas, topics and guests.
(50:27):
Email us atdigitalmarketingvictories at
gmailcom or DM us on Twitter atDM victories.
Thanks for listening.
Welcome to the Digital Marketing Victories
podcast, a monthly show wherewe celebrate and learn from the
changemakers in digitalmarketing.
Great digital marketersunderstand that people are the
most challenging part of doingtheir jobs, and this show
focuses on the people part ofdigital marketing wins what
tactics or skills the guests useto align people with their
marketing strategy.
(00:21):
I'm your host, CatherineWatsier Ong, the owner of WO
Strategies LLC.
We focus on increasing organicdiscovery for enterprise-sized,
science-focused clients.
Thank you for joining me.
Let's get into it and celebrateour victories.
Today we're joined by MaggieJackson.
Maggie Jackson is anaward-winning author and a
(00:41):
journalist known for hervisionary writings on social
trends and particularlytechnology's impact on humanity,
and her new book is calledUncertain the Wisdom and Wonder
of being Unsure, and it's beennominated for a National Book
Award.
It's a selection in the NextBig Idea Book Club curated by
Malcolm Gladwell, Susan Cain,Dan Pink, Adam Grant we all know
(01:01):
those names.
Jackson's recent lead New YorkTimes opinion piece on
uncertainty and well-being drewa quarter million views.
She's also written theacclaimed book Distracted,
reclaiming our focus on a worldof lost attention, which reveals
the scientific discoveries thatcan help recundle our powers of
focus in a world of overloadand fragmentation.
So this show is going to beperfect for you if you're
(01:23):
feeling overwhelmed, like Ithink most of us are right now
in the industry, or stuck withhow to deal with this
uncertainty in the digital andSEO space, and you want tactics
to deal with that uncertaintyand overwhelm, and you want to
make sure you can present yourstrategies confidently, even if
the data underneath it ispotentially uncertain and the
future outcome is uncertain, orif you want to learn more about
(01:44):
how uncertainty on the flip sidecan make you a more creative
and curious marketer.
So, Maggie, thanks for joiningus.
Oh, my pleasure, Thanks forhaving me.
So do you mind if you getstarted just sort of laying the
playing field and defineuncertainty and how it impacts
everyone's emotional wellbeing?
Maggie Jackson (02:03):
No, that's really important and I'm glad to
start there.
Uncertainty there's usually twomain kinds of uncertainty.
Experts now agree.
So we have the uncertainty orwhat's called aleatory
uncertainty.
That's kind of what we don'tknow out there.
We don't know if the marketswill rise or fall next Tuesday.
(02:25):
That's aleatory uncertainty.
So despite all the data, the AI,the probabilistic reasoning etc
.
Humans can't fully know.
On the other hand, we haveepistemic uncertainty, which is
basically psychologicaluncertainty.
That's really what I'm writingabout and in a nutshell, it's
the human response to theunknown.
(02:47):
So basically, when any of usmeet up with something new or
unexpected or ambiguous, we kindof gain the recognition that
we've reached the limits of ourknowledge.
You know we kind of fall shortand yet we also can sense
multiple possibilities.
So a very granular, you knowdaily example is hitting a
(03:09):
traffic jam on your way to animportant meeting and you don't
know if the traffic jam willclear or if the app's going to
tell you the better route.
That leads you to think itcould be this, it could be that
that's actually uncertainty.
It's not ignorance, it'sreaching the limits of your
knowledge.
And what's really importantalso to underline at the get-go
(03:30):
is that I'm not talking aboutand no one's idea of the good
life is to be in limbo.
In other words, uncertainty isnot the end goal.
Uncertainty is now beingrevealed by many, many different
scientific avenues of studiesto be really related to
curiosity, as you mentioned, andadaptability and better
(03:52):
decision making.
But it's not where we want toend up.
It's a vehicle, it's a path tothriving in this age of flux.
Katherine Watier Ong (04:03):
That's such a great way of pivoting it
to making it a positive thingversus something that I think,
if I say it maybe induces stressin the listeners.
So I'm kind of curious becauseI know our audience is
international.
Is this a cultural thing thatonly works in the US?
Is this a universal thing thateverybody feels, regardless of
culture and where they'relocated?
Maggie Jackson (04:23):
Well, uncertainty epistemic or
psychological uncertainty isvery much a part of the human
condition.
When we meet that, somethingnew because we evolved to need
and want answers in order tosurvive we actually have
uncertainty and we have unease.
That said and I want to unpackthat more, about the neural
(04:47):
workings of uncertainty and howit affects our brain and
decision making et cetera.
But as far as differences,there are mainly two kinds of
differences.
There's individual differencesand then there also are cultural
differences in people'sattitudes or approach to
uncertainty.
So there's actually apersonality trait called
(05:08):
intolerance of uncertainty oryou could say tolerance.
So we all, of course, want to.
My book is all about gainingskill in navigating uncertainty
and responding to the unknown.
But you know, to back up a bit,we all have a kind of comfort
zone.
You know give or take withuncertainty.
So, just as you might be moreor less shy than I am, or you
(05:32):
know, extro you up for anxiety.
Actually, you don't likesurprises.
You're more of a rigid thinker.
You treat knowledge assomething you hold and defend,
(05:53):
rather something that can becontinually updated.
On the other hand, tolerance ofuncertainty is really highly
related to resilience and tomental well-being is really
highly related to resilience andto mental well-being.
It's people who are moretolerant of the uncertainties of
life and also the unsurenessthey evoke are more likely to
(06:13):
like surprises, be flexiblethinkers and kind of even revel
in a complex problem.
So that's really important tobe aware of where we all fit,
but also it's also important tonote that it's mutable.
In other words, we can bolsterour tolerance of uncertainty
through very simple steps.
There's a lot of work now aboutthat.
(06:34):
You know, just simply it's kindof jumping off exposure therapy
.
So a lot of studies show thathey, try a new dish in a
restaurant or delegate more atwork.
Or I personally turn to openwater, ocean swimming, all
winter long.
That's, you know, my daily doseof uncertainty, because the app
can tell you everything but itreally doesn't tell you anything
(06:56):
when you're in the water.
So these are very simple steps.
And then to get to your questionabout culture.
And then to get to yourquestion about culture, teams,
companies, countries, all canhave different sort of tolerance
for uncertainty.
So we can't generalize too much, of course, but we can gain
(07:30):
kind of hints of different areasof the world or, as we might
imagine, different companieshave more or less tolerance of
uncertainty.
A design company is probablygoing to be more tolerant than
you know, like a straight,straight, laced I don't know
insurance company, and so that'sreally important to keep in
mind.
You know, if you're marketing oryou're managing, for instance,
you might want to frame yourmessaging differently according
to whether to whether theaudience is steeped in
intolerance of uncertainty.
So a manager who's introducingnew training in a country, an
(07:53):
area like South America, that'svery rule-oriented and
stability-focused, actuallyshould kind of frame that
training as something everyone'sgoing to do but your job is
safe and et cetera.
If you're in a more tolerant ofuncertainty, flexible kind of
culture, you can say, hey, thisis going to help you get ahead,
(08:14):
it'll stretch you, it'll growyou, you're going to be working
on the edge of your comfort zone.
You get the picture.
So these are different sort ofnuances in this large issue of
how well we tolerate uncertaintyand again, the unsureness.
Katherine Watier Ong (08:31):
Yeah, so that's fascinating background.
So our, our industry of digitalmarketing is definitely one
that's constantly changing.
So the last numbers were thatGoogle changes the algorithm
nine times a day.
We now know that might even bemore than that, based on the
most recent leak.
So I've got two kind ofquestions here.
One I'm kind of thinking when Iwas hiring folks for my team
(08:54):
and I'm not sure that I reallynailed the uncertainty bit, but
I did try to find folks that hadsort of outside the box
thinking if that makes sense,Because if you're grabbing
somebody from college andtraining them on this, they're
ultimately going to fail if theycan't handle the uncertainty.
So my first question is isthere any sort of way to like
vet people's level of comfortwith uncertainty?
(09:17):
And then, for those folks thathave decided they want to be in
this career, what tips do youhave for them to maybe bolster
and increase their tolerance ofconstant change and uncertainty?
Maggie Jackson (09:28):
Sure.
Well, this is very, very newthe attention, the intolerance
of uncertainty can be tested,but it's very new.
There's a lot of new attentionto that.
It hasn't really gainedtraction in the business world
(09:48):
yet, although there's a lot ofinterest.
So you can find on the internetthe short form assessment for
tolerance of uncertainty and youcould actually give it to your
employees.
I would not take it tooliterally.
Again, I wouldn't say thatbecause someone scores high in
tolerance and uncertainty.
The second point about this isthat it's not just mutable.
(10:11):
We can challenge ourselves tobe more tolerant of the
uncertainty.
But it's also situational.
So when people are tired oroverloaded, if you got a firm
that's coming to a deadline or ateam that's coming to a
deadline on a project, they'relikely to be exhausted and
overloaded.
That's when they'll show veryhigh tolerance, intolerance of
uncertainty.
(10:31):
They will, and so they.
We all should be aware of that,that certain situations we're
going to lean into jumping toanswers and disliking surprises,
just when we need to beflexible.
So that's really important andI think one way to there are two
main real big takeaways fromall of the new studies about
(10:51):
uncertainty, and the first isyou know, how do we gain
adaptability in this world whichis more and more unpredictable.
You know, if the world itself,the uncertainty is rising.
Unpredictability.
You know, if the if the worlditself, the uncertainty is
rising, unpredictability,volatility, et cetera, that you
know, studies show that that'sthe case.
(11:12):
Well then, what is our responsegoing to be?
And studies of expertise canhelp us, because now the bottom
line is that true expertsactually know when and how to be
unsure.
That's how they are adaptable,that's how they're nimble in the
moment.
One big study of CEOs in themiddle of a huge crisis in
Europe actually found that theambivalent CEOs were the ones
(11:35):
who were more inclusive,listened to multiple
perspectives and they were moreresourceful.
They actually tried andexperimented to adapt to this
crisis, which was the doublingexpansion of the European Union.
At the time, people who CEOswho thought that they knew just
what to do and you know thetypical expert response were
(11:58):
actually ones who tended to donothing at all.
So it's not uncertainty thatholds us back, it's our poor
approaches to uncertainty.
And so, just to continue further, we all gain expertise.
You mentioned two decades inthe field, and we gain through
(12:18):
practice in our 10,000 hours,and so we do know what to do.
We have these mental models thedoctor hears chest pains and
then thinks heart attack.
You know you might, in yourfield or endeavor, know about
certain situations that demandcertain solutions.
Even amidst theunpredictability, that kind of
(12:40):
expertise is impressive andimportant in routine,
predictable environments.
So when you have seen it before,when this is not something new
and complex and ambiguous, wellthen, yes, you can rely on old
solutions, but it's the timewhen something is new and that
you need to draw on thatuncertainty.
(13:01):
You need to make time for it.
I call it inhabiting thequestion.
So superior experts areactually called adaptive experts
and they're the ones whoactually spend more time
assessing a new, complex problemthan even novices do.
So you know you need to maketime, you need to wade in to
(13:22):
test and evaluate.
This is the space of uncertaintythat you know.
Basically, this is the space ofpossibility that you're.
You know testing andunderstanding and taking, and
I'm talking about even just afew minutes.
You know you're in a fast, fast, fast paced world.
I studied surgeons and actuallywent into the operating room
(13:43):
and if they took just a fewminutes to assess a crisis, they
were far, far better off in thelong run.
Those were the adaptive experts.
And another way we can be anadaptive expert is to take on
harder cases, kind of live atthe edge of your comfort zone
rather than always, you know,coasting with what you already
(14:06):
know.
Those are the experts whoactually, you know, grow rather
than just continue to apply oldsolutions.
So those are a couple of that'sa really important point about
uncertainty.
Katherine Watier Ong (14:19):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
In fact, one of the audio booksthat I'm reading um diary of a
CEO kind of talks about that,with one of his tips for being
successful was uh, if it'suncomfortable, lean in.
Especially if it's a learningthing like, lean in, just keep
going, keep leaning in until ityou know, you sort of understand
it a bit more, but don't backaway from things that are scary
(14:40):
and new, basically.
Um, so I'm of curious cause.
In your book you mentioned thatthis uncertainty creates good
stress.
So and the quote that Iparticularly liked was people
who learn to reappraise stressas natural and useful are more
perceptive and effective inchallenging situations.
So how do people get to thatstate?
(15:01):
How do they regulate theirnervous system so they can think
through situations?
And is there any advice youmight have for listeners that
get anxious and stressed whenconfronted with workplace
uncertainty?
Maggie Jackson (15:13):
Yes, that's a great question and that actually
aligns with the second mostpowerful takeaway from the new
studies of uncertainty Basically, studies of uncertainty,
basically uncertainty's angst,uncertainty's unease is
beneficial, it's the gift, so itis good stress.
Whenever I travel, I talk toaudiences and ask them what's
(15:35):
the one word that comes to mindwhen I mention uncertainty?
And invariably the responsesare angst and unease.
And that's really true because,as I mentioned, we as humans
need and want answers.
So you get uneasy.
Well, that unease is basicallyyour body and brain springing to
action to meet this new thing,whatever it is to investigate,
(15:57):
and so your heartmate race inthat traffic jam or your
cortisol levels will probablyrise.
At the same time, your brainundergoes these really powerful
positive changes.
So, for instance, your workingmemory improves, your brain
becomes more receptive to newdata when you're uncertain and
(16:17):
your focus sharpens, you're onyour toes.
And one study of emergencymedicine doctors found that when
they're in a sticky situationclinically and they felt unsure,
that's the time when theirattention was really sharp.
So they were able to.
So this is what's happening iscalled arousal by scientists.
(16:38):
Uncertainty is not something tofear or to retreat from.
It's something to lean into,because of two things.
First of all, uncertainty isliterally, as one neuroscientist
told me, the brain tellingitself there's something to be
learned here.
So what does that mean?
It's basically uncertainty isthe body and brain's way of
(16:58):
jolting us out of that routine,that kind of autopilot.
We live our days kind ofknowing just what to do, how to
tie our shoes, how to make a cupof coffee.
Now there's of autopilot.
We live our days kind ofknowing just what to do, how to
tie our shoes, how to make a cupof coffee.
Now there's something whoa newand your brain is telling you to
now slow down and update yourunderstanding of the world.
It's really important not to so.
This is why ambivalent CEOswere more resourceful, because
(17:22):
they picked up on thiswakefulness and then they waded
into that space of possibility.
So those are the two mostimportant.
And to get to that dreaded word,anxiety, which is also on
everybody's minds when it comesto uncertainty, it's very, very
important to understand thatuncertainty, the arousal of
(17:42):
uncertainty, is distinct fromfear.
So basically, when you'reafraid of your boss's anger
because you can't get to themeeting, or you're afraid of
next year because it seems likeyou really don't know what's
going to coming down the road.
These sorts of fears actuallyproduce a different reaction to
(18:03):
in the body and brain and inessence, in a nutshell, it's
basically a shutdown, your bodyand brain shutdown.
We all know what that feelslike.
We're giving a presentation andwe feel this angst and you feel
like you're shutting down, notrising to the moment, because
you're going into survival modeand your brain actually blood
begins to funnel away from thebrain.
(18:23):
So how can we kind of avertthat, not go down that road of
anxiety?
How can we go into the arousaland wakefulness?
Well, first of all, understandit sounds really simplistic, but
hey, understand that the worldis always going to be changed,
it's always about change.
So if our default mode is think, oh gosh, I wish this Monday
(18:48):
morning meeting was just thesame thing and I'm not going to,
you know, I wish the week was,you know completely, nothing
ever happened, and you know,then you're basically tuning out
of that arousal, you're notpicking up on the signal that
uncertainty is giving you, soyou're not picking up on changes
in your environment.
And the second thing we can dois to, in order to harness this
(19:10):
arousal, this wakefulness, is todial back on outcome fixation
Now.
So that's basically.
I mean this.
Studies in sports and in, youknow, giving tough presentations
and all sorts of challengingsituations, find that when
people focus on the outcome, inother words, what's in it for me
, or, more commonly, I think I'mgonna fail or the audience
(19:34):
doesn't like this presentation,that's an outcome fixation that
removes our attention away fromthe process of gaining a good
outcome.
So your mind is elsewhere,you're putting the cart before
the horse, and that's reallyimportant to just stop that.
And so one way to do that is toget very present oriented
(19:55):
during challenging situations,and so top athletes actually use
things something called cuewords, a very simple little
trick.
It's a personal mantra.
In the middle of a tryingsituation, you just have a
little mantra.
You might say focus now toyourself.
Or you might say be now, andthat's actually proven to help
(20:17):
you become more engaged in themoment, more alert, and then do,
and it enhances performance.
So that all has to do withseeing uncertainty as good
stress, picking up on it,leaning into it, seeing that the
world is always going to befull of change.
Then you're on your toes ratherthan retreating away.
(20:38):
From that kind of performancemode you need.
Katherine Watier Ong (20:42):
Well, and it sounds like meditation might
be a little bit there too,because that'll help you
maintain the present.
This resonates a lot with me.
I do.
I think I've told this peopleon the podcast before, but I do
a weekly check-in, check-outjust to manage my life every
week, and one of the things is Ipicked this up from somewhere
else, but there you have like aword, motivational word for the
week.
Mine, without fail, neverchanges.
(21:03):
It's always the same, but it'sone step at a time.
So it's not one word, mind you,but it's just reminding me that
I can't look at the whole thing.
I'm just going to pick one, onestep at a time, then do the
next step.
That, personally, reigns in myoverwhelm.
Maggie Jackson (21:21):
Yeah, that's perfect, and that's basically
allowing yourself to be inuncertainty.
So then you can perform and andbe, you know, kind of navigate,
harness the best of uncertainty, rather than kind of wishing it
were over.
Katherine Watier Ong (21:37):
Right, Right, Cause it's it's.
I'm in a space where it's notgoing to be over.
No, no.
Maggie Jackson (21:44):
One, one leading psychologist, one world's
leading psychologist on anxiety,michelle Dugas of Canada, said
to me you know, put it verypithily, if you have difficulty
dealing with uncertainty, youhave difficulty dealing with a
life.
Katherine Watier Ong (21:59):
Yeah, I know, I think it was very
heartbreaking.
I weirdly remember as a kidwhen I realized that life is
always changing.
I have, like this childhoodmemory of being very sad.
I forget how old I was, but Ireally wanted things to be
stable.
I'm going to guess it's eight,because I particularly liked
being eight for some reason.
But that's not true.
(22:19):
Like you always change, yougrow, you go through puberty,
you go to a different school,like stuff's changing all the
time.
Through puberty, you go to adifferent school, like stuff's
changing all the time.
Um, though, possibly I havemore, uh, patients with
uncertainty Cause I I discoveredearly on with jobs where it was
the same thing every day.
I got horribly bored.
So I'm on the other end.
I like new challenges, justpersonally, um.
(22:41):
And so what I found interestingis cause.
Maybe this gets back to likevetting vetting your employees
because one of the things that Idid with team members is that I
, if you were interviewing forme, coming from college, you
have no idea what SEO is.
I would give you a screenshotof Google analytics and say what
(23:01):
can you get from thisinformation?
What would your next questionbe?
Trying to tap into thatcuriosity, because if you can't
take a leap of like, you know,if you can't be curious about it
, you're just not going to be agood fit for the industry.
But what I found interestingwith your book is you said that
this uncertainty is the key tocuriosity.
So can you tell me a little bitmore about that, because I
(23:21):
think that was fascinating.
Maggie Jackson (23:23):
Yeah, no, it's really interesting and it also
also kind of lends itself towhat is the personality that
best you know who best navigatesuncertainty and who is you know
that goes hand in hand with whois the curious person, as
you're saying, because you know,just to.
You know kind of sink into whatwe had been talking about.
(23:43):
If you can, you know, open upto the world with curiosity and
wonder rather than fear, and youknow sort of anxiety, then
you're going to just do a betterjob, day by day, minute by
minute.
So there's a lot of work now oncuriosity and there are a lot
of different types of curiosityand they're all studying all
sorts of different interestingthings that have never been
(24:04):
explored before.
You know, for instance, thereare different styles of
curiosity.
Some people have this pinpointstyle called the hunter and they
go after you know that theywant the answer to X question
and that's really a valid.
And then at the same timepeople also can sort of lean
toward this busy buddy kind ofcurious.
They're just interested ineverything.
(24:26):
I know personally as a reporterand a journalist.
That's a really good thing tobe as a journalist and most
people are kind of a blend ofthe two.
But the one thing that allcurious people have in common is
tolerance for the stress of theunknown.
So really closely related tothat tolerance of uncertainty,
but kind of tolerating the goodstress, seeing the benefits.
(24:47):
So really closely related tothat tolerance of uncertainty,
but kind of tolerating the goodstress, seeing the benefits.
So the people who tolerate thestress of uncertainty are
actually the ones who areactively curious.
You can be curious and like, oh, I wonder about this, but not
actually do much about it.
Those who are able to toleratethe awkwardness or the sort of
(25:07):
possibly's really fascinating.
Most fascinating is thistolerance of the stress of
(25:28):
uncertainty is the facet ofcuriosity.
That's most related to wellbeing.
So people who can you know,actively explore, who can raise
their hand and ask a difficultquestion, etc.
Etc.
Those are the people who havehigher well being, more life
satisfaction.
Those are the people who havehigher well-being, more life
(25:49):
satisfaction.
They are just better offmentally in life.
And because?
Why?
Because they're open to all oflife, not just the good but also
the bad.
They're open to the frontiersof what they don't know and they
just continually to push intothat.
So it's I think it's reallyinteresting to link uncertainty
(26:11):
and resilience and wellbeing.
The other thing that's reallyrelated is that people who go
through sort of experiments ortherapy actually targeted
therapy to bolster theirtolerance of uncertainty
actually they have moreresilience.
So all of this, you can see, ishighly related to each other.
(26:33):
If you can be open touncertainty, you can be curious,
and if you're curious and opento uncertainty, then you are
more nimble.
And that's what a lot of peopletell me, because there's a lot
of work going on in business, inmedicine and all sorts of
different sectors about this.
Uh, try boosting people's uhability to navigate uncertainty.
(26:55):
Uh, people constantly use thesame word when they begin to
understand this, they say it'sliberating.
Katherine Watier Ong (27:03):
That's, that's a really powerful word
liberating so that's that's areally powerful word liberating.
So that's so interesting CauseI on the show, I'm definitely
dancing around this idea ofresilience Like how do you
become more resilient?
And you're just approaching itfrom a sort of a different
perspective for anyone listening.
We actually had Lloyd Lobo ontalking about the power of
community to also give you moreresilience.
So if you're, if you yourselfare also curious about how to
(27:27):
build your resilience, Iencourage you to check out that
episode.
So I just want to circle backaround to the nitty gritty of
what goes on in this industry.
So oftentimes things arechanging under our feet and we
need to appear confident whenproviding recommendations.
First of all, I have to come upwith recommendations, and then
(27:47):
we have to be confident, andthen the data underneath it
might be horribly incomplete,because the tools we use don't
tell us the whole picture, andso, as much as we try to get the
whole picture honestly in theback of our head, we know that
it's missing some stuff.
So how do you handle?
Do you have any recommendationsabout how to handle that from
(28:08):
your research?
What strategies or mindsets canhelp people be more confident
in that particular moment?
Maggie Jackson (28:27):
is often seen as weakness, as inertia, when
actually it's the fear ofuncertainty that's more highly
related to inertia.
Uncertainty is seen as weaknessin leaders and in expertise,
but that's not the case at all.
The research doesn't show us.
It's the opposite, actually.
So I think there are two coupleimportant points.
First of all, today we'rereally under pressure very often
in this quick answer, quick fixkind of tech-oriented
(28:53):
environment, to be confident.
Unwarranted confidence iswhat's demanded, in other words,
confidence that's immediate,confidence that's ultra-sure,
and that's actually not going togain us the better answer.
You know, I was at oneconference and executives were
saying well, we need to be quick, we uncertainty slows you down,
(29:14):
and yes, it slows you downbriefly, as I mentioned.
But at the same time,uncertainty gives you the better
answer, not just any old answer, it allows you to get to the
better answer.
And where does confidence haveto do that?
Well then, you're gaining akind of solid confidence, a
confidence on knowing the ropes.
You can't know everything, asyou mentioned, but you can know
(29:37):
the situation, you canunderstand what you're coping
with.
That's a solid kind ofconfidence.
Now, at the same time, it'simportant although we all want
to be confident and we should beconfident in our answer.
But in a client situation or amanagement situation, it's
really important to understandthat expressions of uncertainty
(29:59):
are not bad.
In fact, they're actuallyhighly beneficial.
For instance, expressions ofuncertainty are persuasive,
believe it or not.
Now, we wouldn't think that thedoctor or the SEO expert who
says they're not sure of theanswer would be persuasive.
But it's true as long as it'slinked to potential.
(30:21):
So you wouldn't want the doctorto walk into the room and say I
really don't know what to dowith your case, or the SEO
experts the same of the client.
But what you can do is link itto potential.
For instance, the doctor cansay I'm not sure, but I have
resources or colleagues who canhelp me and we're going to
figure this out.
(30:41):
There's potential there.
Or you can say plan A, our nextmarketing strategy plan is you
know, we're not 100% sure thatthis is going to be guaranteed
successful, but we have a lot ofthe evidence that shows it
likely will be and there's a lotof potential there.
People respond really wellbecause it's plausible, because
(31:04):
it's persuasive, and the otherthing that it's really important
to understand is that the wordswe use.
I think the more I immersemyself in uncertainty the more I
see this kind of culture,addicted to using certainty
words.
You know that's for sure andabsolutely.
(31:38):
Those are actually not seen asprofessional in workplace
situations when used byexecutives and studies out of
Harvard as making people seemmore professional, more
approachable, you know, just asauthoritative and yet more human
to deal with, which is a verygood thing.
And these words do two things.
Linguistically, if I use theword maybe, it signals to you
(32:02):
that there's something more toknow, which is very important.
If you're working together, youreally need to know where your
knowledge ends and where youneed to do further work.
The second thing is that theword maybe and these other hedge
words indicate that you arereceptive to another person's
(32:23):
perspective, which is also very,very important today,
especially in a divisive societyand divisive workplaces.
So these little granular wordslike maybe and that would be in
contrast to you know, obviously,or you know you're wrong or
therefore those are the oppositeof hedge words.
(32:43):
Then they are not persuasiveand they don't help.
You appear to be someone whoeverybody wants to work with.
So those are some granular tipsand strategies for how to be
confident while also beingstrategically unsure.
Katherine Watier Ong (33:00):
I just I need to have an episode about
what words you should and shouldnot use.
I'm just utterly fascinatedwith ones that are more
persuasive versus not, and howto train yourself to use the
ones that are more effective.
As just a side note, I find itvery fascinating.
So let's pivot for a second andtalk about this team dynamic.
So in your book you've talkedabout this, and we haven't
(33:23):
talked about it much yet on theshow, but that fostering a
culture of uncertainty is goingto lead you to better outcomes,
basically, and so can you talk alittle bit more about the value
of that and how to build a teamthat can handle uncertainty?
Maggie Jackson (33:39):
Yes, yes, no.
It's really important tounderstand that uncertainty is
not a solo act, that we can beunsure productively together.
And in fact, very, very newresearch shows that uncertainty
is the foundation, it's kind ofthe bedrock of excellence in
group collaboration and teamwork, and this is true of Supreme
(34:01):
Court justices or climber MountEverest expeditions or workplace
teams.
So it runs the gamut and so youknow.
Of course, to back up or topreface, it's very often seen as
agreement is what we all wantto strive for and of course you
(34:21):
know again, that should be theend goal, but it really
shouldn't be the norm in a team.
When a team is in agreement,when a team agrees, even no
matter how diverse that team is,they start to lose sight of
individual differences,different levels of knowledge,
expertise.
They lose what's called thehidden profile of what each
(34:43):
individually knows and theybegin to most often talk about
what everybody already knows.
Maybe that'll ring some bellsfrom your audience.
You sit around and talk aboutwhat everybody knows and you're
not going to progress.
Teams that are in agreement arealso less accurate and less
creative and the discussions aremore shallow and cursory.
That's what happens when we'retrying to get on the same page
(35:05):
and stay there, whereas teamsthat are disagreeing who you
know productively, respectfully,micro conflicts it's often
called, those are the ones thathave more intense discussions,
that surface this hiddeninformation, that are more
accurate, creative, etc.
Etc.
Now so the question is how Well?
I studied a deep dive in theMars Exploration Rover team,
(35:29):
which is considered one of themost innovative in space history
.
They were an amazing team,diverse in all ways, and they
basically were highly successfulputting those robots on Mars,
discovering water, et cetera, etcetera.
Because they constantlycultivated disagreement.
And why?
(35:49):
In order to gain uncertainty.
So this is what happens whenyou're disagreeing.
In today's polarized world, weoften assume that, oh, a
disagreement is good if theright side wins, or disagreement
is good if that dissentingvoice has the right answer and
everybody follows behind.
(36:10):
But that's not actually how thebest collaboration works.
When there's disagreement,actually what should happen is
that the disagreement spurs,sparks, uncertainty, and then
there's a whole new dynamic ofcurious and skeptical, intense
(36:30):
kind of discussions and allthose performance gains.
Well, how do we know thatuncertainty is so important?
Because even dissenting ordisagreeing voices that are
wrong actually end up with theseperformance gains.
Somebody can be wrong, but it'sthe jolting the group off the
assumptions and sparking theuncertainty that lets people
(36:51):
know what they don't know, andthe gains are just stunning.
It's really amazing.
And in this Mars rover team, 20%of their conversations remote,
virtual side-by-side, all sortsof conversations involve micro
conflicts and they often usethose hedge words, maybe
sometimes things like that Idon't know that, things like
(37:14):
that but also 100% of the microconflicts involve expressions of
uncertainty.
So one one page we can take awayfrom this Mars team, which is
absolutely fascinating, was sohighly studied, is they had
something the time would saydoes anyone have anything they
(37:49):
disagree with and is thereanything that someone doesn't
know?
In other words, raise your handand say I don't understand or I
disagree.
And they kept to that listeningritual and it was.
That was one of the moreimportant ways, means of their
success.
So it's absolutely fascinating.
So I think I call this gaininguncommon ground and basically
(38:13):
you know what we want to do, todo right by our teams, is to not
only accept disagreement andthen the resulting uncertainty,
but also to offer it ourselvesand not see that, as you know,
the person who disagrees orengenders uncertainty shouldn't
be seen as a pain in the neck.
They should be the hero of thegroup, really.
Katherine Watier Ong (38:35):
You're just reminding me why, when I
was in an agency, I hatedbrainstorming sessions.
Because the agency I was at Iwould be the one coming with a
unique perspective, because Iwas the only digital one sitting
there and I was always shutdown and the brainstorming
sessions were always aboutfinding the one thing everybody
agreed on and it just felt likeit was not brainstorming per se.
(38:56):
There was no new ideas, anyway,especially since I was coming
with new ideas and shut down.
Anyway, that's just fascinatingand I love the tips about how
to close out the meeting to makesure you're keeping that
curiosity, basically.
So the other thing I want toflip to, because you mentioned
just a little bit so we've gotI'm a little bit concerned about
the future in general.
(39:16):
So, if we go a little bit meta,obviously the world is uncertain
.
We're in a pandemic, we'rewatching the bird flu thing,
we've got climate change.
So, beyond even just theindustry, life's a bit uncertain
for sure.
And on top of that, we knowthat online everybody's
(39:37):
experience is personalized tothem.
So you know, I've mentioned onthe show, I think, the filter
bubble, which is all about thefact you're only going to get
opinions that confirm what youthink, because social media
platforms, you know,personalized to you, so to
search.
So I'm kind of concerned aboutwhere we're going, because you
just talked about how, in orderto get to a better outcome, we
(39:57):
actually need this diversity.
So do you want to talk a littlebit about how, maybe, if we
just pull it down to theindividual level, if you're an
educated person, what can you doto make sure you're not too
filtered?
And you've got this broadperspective.
Maggie Jackson (40:15):
Right, yeah, no, that's important because in
talking about workplace teamsand collaboration through
disagreement and uncertainty,I'm really talking about, you
know, kind of progressing orcollaborating with so-called our
side, even amidst diversity.
We want to not rest only in theknown, in other words, not just
(40:37):
hang around with people like us.
You might be bonded with yourteam and still able to be
uncertain.
You might be still able toengender that disagreement that
puts you forward.
Or there's someone who's eventhe opposite sports team, across
the stadium, or the personacross, you know, in your
(41:03):
neighbor, whose politics youloathe.
These are the bridges that wealso need to make.
This is also where theopen-mindedness of uncertainty
can really help us today.
So, in the meta view, you know,we really need to understand
you know the people the otherside, to understand you know the
people the other side, so tospeak, through gaining more
uncertainty.
(41:23):
Because, basically, the humansare, you know, we evolved to
need and want answers.
We also evolved to categorize.
Even when you see a face ofsomeone, either online or, you
know, down the street eitheronline or down the street
unconsciously your brainassesses within milliseconds
whether that person is in-groupor out-group, like you or not
(41:45):
like you, and from there thebrain begins to quiet in these
complex, interesting ways.
When your brain sees someonethey deem out-group, they begin
to quiet down and so they becomeless like an individual.
So this categorization sociallyis very, very dangerous, leads
to dehumanization andmisunderstandings at the very
(42:08):
least, and the polarization wesee today.
One way again we can joltourselves out of that
unconscious categorization iswell, two ways.
One is first of all to try toactively, deliberately, see
another person as an individual.
You know, studies show thatagain, this could be true.
(42:29):
Even if you know you weretalking about being the only
person from digital in thesemeetings, well, they probably
categorized you as, oh, thatperson from digital, and we say,
oh, that person from accounting.
We could do this in theworkplace just as easily and say
to ourselves well, let's thinkabout who Joe is or Sally is or
(42:51):
whoever they are, rather thanthe person from the, from the,
you know accounting or whatever.
The second really powerful wayto both lower prejudice and also
to gain a kind of the space formutual learning that
uncertainty gives us issomething called perspective
taking.
I mean, that's just kind ofyour grandmother's folk wisdom,
(43:13):
you know, thinking about theworld through their eyes.
Now, this is not empathy, it'snot how do they feel, but it's
really.
What does the world look likethrough the eyes of a
90-year-old if you're 30?
Or through the eyes of a youknow X party political party if
you're from Y political party?
And that little bit of leap ofimagination actually makes
(43:36):
people more likely to worktogether, to want to sit closer
together, even if they're reallyyou know, outcasts in society,
like a convicted felon or a drugaddict, etc.
And it really kind of matches.
What Socrates tried to teach along time ago, at the dawn of
(43:59):
the democracy, was that thatperspective taking is just a
leap of imagination.
You really don't know what theythink or how they see the world
through their eyes, but by doingso you're in some ways, I think
, seeking, you're basicallyself-induced arousal is how I
(44:19):
describe it.
You're basically moving awayfrom that easy, complacent
categorization and you'resuddenly waking up to the fact
that maybe there's something youdon't know about them.
That sets the stage for theengagement that allows us to
learn from each other,engagement that allows us to
learn from each other.
(44:39):
So it's a really importantsimple little tactic that people
are now that is getting a lotof scientific attention and is
being used in politicalcampaigns.
As activists talk to oppositionvoters on, you know, lgbtq
rights, they're using this as acore of a way to help people
lower prejudice on both sides.
(44:59):
The activist, you know, mighthave prejudice against the
opponent and the opponent hasprejudice against them or closed
mindedness.
This helps open both minds andthen they can talk, which is
golden.
Katherine Watier Ong (45:14):
Those are great tips.
So we're we're just about outof time.
I actually have just a few morequestions.
The first one is we have thisthing called artificial
intelligence, right?
That's sort of taking over ourindustry, both automation and AI
.
Do you have just?
What is your opinion about howthat's going to impact our
future, Because I know you talkabout it a little bit in the
(45:36):
book.
Maggie Jackson (45:37):
Oh yes, it's a very complicated and it's you
know.
Talk about change.
It's changing, you know, by themillisecond as we speak.
But one thought I have is thatwe have to be very, very careful
that AI doesn't do what mosttechnologies have done in the
history of human technologies,which is human.
You know, machine age onwardstechnology.
(46:01):
So I'm not talking about thestick or the ax, I'm talking
about the machine onwards tocomputers, and that's induced
automation bias.
Whenever a human is working witha machine, they become
complacent.
Basically, it happens withpilots, it happens as we search
the web, it happens in hospitals.
We become complacent.
(46:22):
We then allow the machine to dothe work for us.
I think I see very many signsthat that's happening with AI
It'll do the work for us so wecan just kind of go asleep at
the wheel.
In fact, many, many accidentswith self-driving cars are
because the human in the betatest, who was supposed to be
there alert and ready, basicallyjust was watching a movie or
(46:44):
something like that.
They just abdicated allresponsibility to a machine that
wasn't ready for it.
I think that's one reallyimportant trend to watch.
It's also really fascinatingand I do write about this to
understand that AI hastraditionally been founded and
created on a very narrowdefinition of intelligence the
(47:07):
rationalist Western idea that anintelligent being achieves
one's goals.
As you can see from that briefdefinition, it means process
goes out the window.
It means AI is built to dosomething with the leading minds
in AI, to redefine AI,basically to make the robots and
(47:43):
models more unsure of theirgoals.
So if you tell your housekeeperrobot to fetch coffee down the
street, traditional AI will justdo it.
They might plow down someone,they might go the fastest route
to get the most expensive copyand unsure robot and I tested
one at the Virginia Tech and itwas fascinating will actually be
(48:05):
teachable.
They'll ask you questions,they'll show you multiple
scenarios and they're seen asmore smart and as more
cooperative by humans who aretesting them.
So there's a trend to watch forus.
I think the bottom line isuncertainty, with its capacity
to help us be engaged andwakeful and also its provision
(48:32):
of this space of possibilitiesby allowing us to slow down.
Uncertainty really equips us tobe in control in fluid and
flexible ways, to be nimble, andthat's where we need to be if
we're going to be cooperatingwith, working, with
collaborating with ultra, ultrasmart machines and also, I'm
(48:55):
sure, ai is our best hope.
Many people think for having AIbe stoppable instead of going
completely out of control.
Katherine Watier Ong (49:05):
That would be the other uncertainty thing
that's lingering in our head,right Not to get too existential
Right, right it might come forus seriously.
So this has been a fascinatingconversation.
I loved reading the book.
I just have the last couple ofquestions, which is do you have
any resources you want to sharewith the audience today?
And then, how can people learnmore about you?
Maggie Jackson (49:26):
Sure, and I think I can answer two questions
in one.
I would go send people to mywebsite, maggie-jacksoncom.
Just Google Maggie Jackson, ununcertain or my previous book
distracted, you'll find me andyou'll find a lot of resources
there many, many articles,podcasts, interviews and some
granular things.
I'm just about to post a quizon readers guide, quiz developed
(49:52):
as a by the next big idea clubClub and on the website, and so
you'll find a lot of resourcesto help you learn about
uncertainty and then harness itand navigate it well in your own
life.
Katherine Watier Ong (50:04):
Awesome, this has been great.
Thank you so much for being onthe show.
Thank you, my pleasure.
Thanks so much for listening.
To find out more about thepodcast and what we're up to, go
to digitalmarketingvictoriescomand, if you like what you heard
, subscribe to us on iTunes orwherever you get your podcasts.
Rate us, comment and share thepodcast please.
I'm always looking for newideas, topics and guests.
(50:27):
Email us atdigitalmarketingvictories at
gmailcom or DM us on Twitter atDM victories.
Thanks for listening.
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