When you settle into your seat on your next rail journey, see if you notice small towers dotted along the journey right next to the track. These are GSM-R base stations - a private GSM network for rail operators.
Launched in the UK around 2007, the technology is based on the GSM mobile standard, and GSM-R suppliers have committed to support this system until 2030.
So what’s the future of rail communications? Enter the Future Railway Mobile Communication System (FRMCS) using the latest 5G technologies.
To learn more about the opportunity for this new mode of operation, I spoke with Jochen Apel, Global Vice President of Digital Industries at Nokia, on the latest Actionable Futurist Podcast.
We explored the exciting world of 5G technology for rail networks and its potential for transforming the rail industry.
We also discussed the unique benefits of upgrading from the existing GSMR system to a 5G-based system, such as faster data speeds, a larger ecosystem of vendors, and more data to support critical operations, automation, and asset management.
Jochen also sheds light on the potential of the Future Rail Mobile Communication System (FRMCS) as a global standard.
We dive into the trials being run by Nokia with customers and SNCF, SBB, and Deutsche Bahn, and discuss the transition process for rail operators moving to FRMCS systems.
Don't miss this enlightening episode as we uncover the advantages of 5G technology integration for rail networks and learn what smart rail operators can do now to prepare for this imminent change.
We covered topics such as:
- What is the future of Rail?
- The Future Rail Mobile Communication System (FRMCS)
- What is holding back the move to FRMCS
- Unique benefits of the Nokia approach
- The opportunity for FRMCS to become a global standard
- 5G's use in Rail Networks
- New services unlocked by FRMCS
- Transitioning to new FRMCS services
- What should smart rail operators be doing to prepare?
- What does a forward-looking rail operator look like?
- Three actionable things to better understand the needs of modern transportation networks
More on Jochen
Jochen on LinkedIn
Nokia FRMCS solution website
Thanks for listening to Digitally Curious. You can buy the book that showcases these episodes at curious.click/order
Your Host is Actionable Futurist® Andrew Grill
For more on Andrew - what he speaks about and recent talks, please visit ActionableFuturist.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
Welcome to the Actionable Futurist podcast, a
show all about the near-termfuture, with practical and
actionable advice from a rangeof global experts to help you
stay ahead of the curve.
Every episode answers thequestion what's the future on,
with voices and opinions thatneed to be heard.
(00:23):
Your host is internationalkeynote speaker and Actionable
Futurist, andrew Grill.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Today's guest is Jochen Appel, global Vice
President of Digital Industriesat Nokia, leading their
endeavours for advancing thedigital evolution of the
transportation, energy, publicsafety and defence industry
segments.
Jochen and his team work withcustomers to harness the power
of networks to support criticaloperations, intelligently
automate processes andproactively manage assets,
achieving the benefits ofpervasive connectivity and
(00:53):
digital transformation.
Now I've just come back fromspeaking at the Middle East Rail
Summer in Abu Dhabi, so I gotto see first hand how technology
is transforming transportationand also saw the Nokia stand The
big question at the top of theshow what's the future of rail?
Speaker 3 (01:07):
The future of rail for me is really about
automation and digitalisation.
These guys need to get moretrains on the track, and you can
only achieve this if youautomate much more than what
they're doing today.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
I'm a bit of a geek.
A lot of people on the podcastare not familiar with what's
actually used today in railinfrastructure.
If you're a passenger, you willsee these little mini base
stations on the side of therailway with directional
antennas.
That's the existing system.
Maybe you could talk about whatcompanies are using today and
where we need to get to.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
What you see today is basically what is called GSMR
and, again, it's a technologywhich got introduced 23 years
ago.
So most of the rail operatorsin Europe, a lot in Middle East
and the majority of the railoperators in Australia, for
instance, in China, they areusing this standard.
Let's say, since it is a 20plus years old technology, we
(01:57):
are running out of components,we are running out of people who
are able to maintain this.
So in the future, we need tomigrate to a more powerful and
new, modern way of acommunication system.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
This new system is called the Future Rail Mobile
Communication System, or FRMCSfor short.
This is using the latesttechnology 5G faster data speeds
.
How is it different to GSMR?
It's?
Speaker 3 (02:20):
using 5G, so it's using the most modern wireless
system we have in the marketright now And the big benefit is
it is standardized 3GPP system.
So I think it is a technologywhich is commonly available.
So you have a big ecosystem ofnot just network vendors, you
have a big ecosystem of devicemanufacturers And you can put a
(02:41):
lot of very advanced use caseson this system because you have
much more bandwidth So you canput video there, you can put
voice there, you can put traincontrol there.
So there is a big benefit inhaving a 5G system compared to
GSMR, which can do a little bitof train control and a little
bit of voice.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
So it seems quite limited.
I'm just surprised that wehaven't upgraded it a lot
earlier.
What's holding it back?
Is it governments or operators?
What's driving the need toupgrade?
Speaker 3 (03:09):
So, first of all, there is a common standard
across all the Europeancountries, right?
And if you need to find acommon, let's say, sense of what
you're going to do from atechnology perspective, there is
a long-lasting processinvolving all the stakeholders,
and I think we were lucky thatthey agreed on GSMR 25, 23 years
(03:30):
ago.
And, of course, there are a lotof trains who need to migrate,
not just the networking piece.
So there's a lot of stuff whichholds the industry back to
migrate And it's a bigcommercial effort to do this.
However, at a certain point oftime, you can't stick to old
technology all the time, so at acertain point of time, you need
(03:51):
to migrate.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
So just for my information, sort of train
control and those sort of things, if it's limited on the GSMR
system, how are we getting databack from trains today if
they're not using this futuremode of operation?
Speaker 3 (04:03):
So we are getting data back from trains today, but
it's very much along thestandard of ERTMS, which is the
train control system which weare using in Europe and in those
countries who are adopted oradopted the standard, and GSMR
is part of this.
But this data is limited totrain control.
So you can see a train, you cantell the train what's ahead of
(04:25):
them, how fast they can go, ifthey need to slow down, all
these kind of things.
That's all good And this worksperfectly well.
So we have a lot of countriesadopted this model.
However, if you want to move,for instance in automated train
operations even without a driver, then you need, for instance,
video traffic, because in theoperation center you need
(04:47):
basically a video understanding,okay, what's going on on site.
And then you have the limit ofa GSMR based system which has a
very, very constrained datachannel.
The data channel is good fortrain control, but it's not
there for any advanced data.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
So that's a good point.
As we move to automatedvehicles around the world.
With a train, truck, road, rail, you're going to need a fast
data bearer, and 5G does thatalso.
There's low latency, so itseems obvious that it should be
upgraded.
So what are the unique benefitsof the Nokia system that can
actually help train operatorsmove to this next mode of
operation?
So what you can get from Nokiais basically everything.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
You can get the infrastructure on the mobile
site, but you need also thebackhauling.
You need basically the services.
You need the mission criticalpush to talk.
You need the video services upto a cab radio, up to an onboard
gateway.
Although we are not producingour own onboard gateways, we are
working together, for instance,with Altstorms, or, let's say,
(05:45):
a signalling vendor, to makesure that their system works
perfectly with our system.
And last year at InnoTrans, thebig rail fare we had in Berlin,
we were even demonstrating this.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Now it's interesting that the GSMR system R for Rail
is based on the GSMR GlobalSystem for mobiles which, as
many know, took a long time toget all these countries to agree
to standards and frequenciesand those sort of things.
Would FRMCS become a globalstandard, just as mobile
platforms, and GSMR has becomethat global mobile standard.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
So the bigger vision of FRMCS.
As it is, of course,predominantly standardised for
European countries, there is abig potential that this gets
adopted by railways across theglobe because it's open for any
frequency.
It's open, basically, for anybeer.
It's very much not tied to anyspecific regulations.
(06:38):
So I think that's reallysomething which helps everybody
to use or to take benefit of abig ecosystem which will build
up.
Just because maybe Europe isadopting this.
It is also a big benefit forother countries that they can
rely on these ecosystems.
So, yes, because it relies onstandards which are already
(06:58):
available across the globe, ithas a good potential to become a
global rail standard.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
And so who was responsible for developing FRMCS
a few years ago?
Was that Nokia?
Was that an industry-wideinitiative?
Speaker 3 (07:10):
No, it's basically an initiative driven by the UIC,
so by the rail community ofEurope.
They basically understoodbecause the rail communication
vendor industry, so Unifei.
Basically we told them look, wecan maintain GSMR until 2030,
roughly right.
And then of course, there aredebates right and left, but at
that point I think it was aninitiative coming from the
(07:33):
industry, from the communicationindustry, really motivating the
rail industry.
So you need to think about anew standard.
It will take many years and thelearning is it took already
many years and we know that itwill still take two, three years
further down the road until wesee first real commercial
deployments based on thesestandards.
It's a joint effort between theoperators and the industry to
(07:53):
drive this.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
IDC, a global research company, recently
surveyed railway executivesabout the future of rail.
What were some of the surveys?
key findings.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
For me, a key finding was that, although we hadn't
had that much insight maybe wesaw that of course 80% of our
customers or basically the railoperators which could surveyed
they already started on theFRMCS side.
It's a very good start and wewere also amazed about the
amount of operators doing thisalready.
Another finding was also thatthe complexity they have today
(08:25):
and the big TCO they face todaywith all these purpose-made
communication systems they areoperating, and then the big
promise that with FRMCS it canbe produced based on
standardized hardware everywherethe same in the world, that's a
big, big benefit for them.
So I think this is reallysomething they look forward and
this is the main outcomes for me.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Now in rail systems it's literally lots of large
moving parts and safety iscritical, both for the people
operating the rail network aswell as people using it.
So what are the safetyimprovements that FRMCS brings
over GSMR and what are someother improvements that the
FRMCS system can bring?
Speaker 3 (09:01):
From a safety perspective, gsmr does what it
is supposed to do The bigbenefits from a safety
perspective.
When we think about moreautomation, then we need to give
systems steering, basicallyeverything, a good fuel of the
environment the train is in.
So I think we are providingmore data and therefore the
(09:22):
system gets more safe.
They get better situationalawareness, they understand is
there any obstacle on the track,and so on and so forth.
So we can simply provide muchmore data which will help
automated systems to react muchfaster and in a much better way.
So train operator will getbasically a high level of
efficiency gain when theymigrate to FRMCS because again
(09:45):
they can collect more data aboutthe situation of the track.
They can do much betterproactive maintenance.
So you will see a higheravailability of the rail
infrastructure.
But you will also understand,or you will also see, that rail
operators are able to bring muchmore trains on the same track
because they can run much closerbecause of the latency
(10:07):
improvement we have in thenetwork.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
Well, that seems like a key benefit because if you
want to run trains more oftenhere where I live in London the
Elizabeth line, the new railnetwork they are now operating
at what is probably the maximumcapacity and that is down to the
signalling system and nowobviously they have got next
generation signalling systemsthere as well.
But I didn't really realisethat in order to be able to run
trains more regularly.
(10:30):
It is a safety issue, it is ascheduling issue and those sorts
of things.
So it sounds like this has gothuge benefits for network
operators, not just in themaintenance, and they can
probably do more predictivemaintenance and therefore the
trains won't wear out as often.
They can replace the parts.
5g has some real benefits as atechnology.
There is network slicing, youcan run private 5G networks.
(10:50):
What are those specific 5Gcomponents that will be
integrated into this railnetwork that are already being
used in consumer and broad 5Gnetworks?
Speaker 3 (10:59):
The specifics on 5G is basically, on one hand, is
you can deal with more spectrumoption and you have much more
bandwidth If you have spectrumwhich goes up, let's say, on the
upper side of the spectrumfamily, and you have the
possibility to connect millionsof millions of sensors and
(11:20):
devices just in one cell.
And this is the big promisecoming out of IoT.
And again, this goes back tothe sensors which are today in a
train, which are connectedprobably via whatever network.
That's okay.
you can aggregate data.
you need to be very selectiveon the data which you can
transmit from the train to theoperation center.
(11:43):
With 5G you can transmit anydata because, especially when we
talk about machine learning orpredictive maintenance, you
don't know which data you needto be able to do predictive
maintenance.
You need to collect all thedata and then you understand
which data are very, let's say,beneficial and which data you
can scrap.
And this is, i think, the bigbenefit that the limitation we
(12:06):
have today with the existingsystems in terms of bandwidth
and how many devices you canconnect per cell, they go away
with 5G And then you havebasically a big variety of use
cases you can realize, becausethere's no limitation on the
bandwidth side anymore.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
So there's probably two things there.
At the moment the data can becollected I'm sure brand new
rolling stock, there are amultitude of sensors on that but
I assume at the moment it'sprobably not able to send all
that data back in real time.
I'm wondering if it's beingcollected and then maybe
downloaded at the depot versusbeing able to have that in real
time.
And the parallel I like to hearis I know that Airbus have
instrumented every part of theirairplanes And I understand that
(12:46):
after a flight a terabyte ofdata gets downloaded so they can
actually look at the health ofthe aircraft.
And I know from my experiencewith Qantas they have network
operations centers.
They know the health of theplane while it's in flight.
So what you're saying is thisnew generation technology really
does allow more real timedecision making And maybe
they'll find out informationabout the rolling stock.
(13:07):
They never knew that they couldbecause it's happening in real
time And if a particular bend isalways stressing, the vehicle
going to know more about thatearlier because you've got
trains going through.
So maybe talk through some ofthe use cases that will be
unlocked with this new dataavailability.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
We are in constant discussion with.
We are partnering with most ofthe rolling stock vendors as
well, because they are usuallyalso signaling vendors, so they
are our partners in the variousgo to markets with various
projects.
So the benefit is not just thatyou can collect the data Indeed
, you can do this in the depotand they are doing this today
The automation behind in termsof mitigating issues.
(13:46):
So, for instance, if you wouldcollect the data in what we call
real time, so it let's say, adoor gets broken and you get an
instant notification, the dooris broken.
Then at the next stop and wethink more in a in a mainline
environment, right in the metroenvironment, this doesn't make
sense.
But in a mainline environment,at the next stop, there is
already a technician who is ableto repair, probably, this door,
(14:09):
if he knows what's what wentwrong, what is probably broken,
having already the right sparepart with him, and so on and so
forth.
So you can really collect data.
You can, you can give it to amachine, the machine is
analyzing it and triggersalready the corrective action,
which probably in this use caseis we send a technician.
This is just one use case.
Another use case might be video,which usually consumes a lot of
(14:32):
bandwidth but also requires alow latency connectivity.
So in an 803 or 40 environmentwhere you don't have a train
driver, where you even in an 804environment where you don't
have a steward or something atthe train and the train stops in
the middle of nowhere and youneed to probably evacuate the
train, then you better know whatis the environment, right,
(14:52):
probably the same stopped in themiddle of flooding or something
like this, so you don't want toevacuate people there.
So this all is possible with,let's say, with with these
higher bandwidths And, of course, certain use cases can be done
through a usual carrier networkof a mobile network operator as
well.
And this is the next benefit ofusing a harmonized system,
(15:13):
because you can use this as abackup.
So if your bandwidth is in acertain area not enough or you
need for a specific occasion,you need more than you just do,
basically a rooming with the,with the mobile operator, and
then you have more bandwidth ondemand.
And this is this is the bigbenefit of using a modern 5G
system.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
So I'm sure the people that have decided they're
going to make the move, thisnew FRMCS, it's not a simple rip
and replace because you've gotexisting rolling stock, you've
got safety considerations.
So what are the transitionplans to adopt these new FRMCS
systems and can they be runningparallel with the existing
systems?
Speaker 3 (15:49):
An infrastructure manner of a rail operator tells
you what he thinks or she thinksis all concerned about this
move, you might run away, right,because this is horrible
complex.
Right, it is really horrible.
Complex because it's not justremoving or building up a new
network is, as you said, thereis a lot of, let's say, rolling
stock involved.
There are a lot of governmententities, regulators, involved
(16:13):
to need to give their stamp,that and this is safety proof.
You have the signalingcompanies on top and so on and
so forth.
It will be a faced approach andit is a faced approach and we
are doing a couple of trialsalready With some of the of the
major rail operators.
It will be that you need todeploy an FMC as network next to
a G some network, because youneed to give at least four or
(16:34):
five years to the trainoperating companies to move from
one technology to another.
They can't do this just in oneyear or something like this.
Day and again, on the, let's say, continental Europe topic is
that a train runs from Portugalto Helsinki, right so?
and you need to make sure thatthe same train operating company
can run in any of thesenetworks.
(16:55):
There's a parallel operationsof G some are and FMC is needed
And and this is probably anotheradvantage of a company like
Nokia doing G, some are doingFMC, as in the future as well
there's a lot of interworkingneeded between on the functional
level, between G some are andFMC.
So you can't ask the traindriver To know if he operates in
(17:19):
an FMC S environment or in a Gsome are environment.
If he needs to press theemergency button right, it's
just a button and theneverything needs to go very
smooth, irrespectively in whichnetwork he's connected.
We will see an introduction ofFMC S.
It will be up and running,maybe line by line or certain
corridors, and then we will seeafter every train operating
(17:42):
company had enough time tochange the onboard equipment and
we will see a shutdown.
So we expect a transition phasebetween Four and seven years,
depending on the on the, let'ssay, size of the network and
where it is located.
Is it more centrally located sothat you need to connect a lot
of other countries?
that might take even longer.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
So you mentioned you've got some existing trials
happening.
Anything that has pleasantlysurprised you, some things you
didn't expect that you're seeingsome increased benefits from
the trials you're runningalready.
Speaker 3 (18:11):
We do trials predominantly with our customers
, but also with SNCF, with SBB,with Deutsche Bahn.
Deutsche Bahn is relativelyadvanced, since they were able
to isolate a complete piece oftheir network which is not in
commercial operation.
We're doing some learnings,especially on very, sometimes
very, basic things.
So is the frequency to be used?
(18:32):
is it interfering with others?
yes or no?
What is the size of the cell atthe end?
today we are running in acomplete different level of
frequency with GSMR, then laterwith FMC S.
We were expecting that weprobably need double size of the
cell.
The reality is, depending onthe use case, you might not need
really the double amount of thecells at the end of the day.
(18:54):
So these kind of things areimportant.
We also see some functionaloutcomes when it comes also to
interworking between GSMR andFMC S.
That's, i would say, a littlebit of way to go to get this
completely up and running andthe line, and there's a
particular focus on theunderstanding at the moment.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
So what should smart rail operators be doing now to
prepare for this future of rail?
Speaker 3 (19:18):
Do trials, make your own learning right.
It is very important becauseevery country, unfortunately,
has its own spectrum regulation,so maybe the spectrum which is
now getting allocated in thecountry for FMC S was used 10
years before for somethingdifferent.
You still have a bunch ofequipment out there radiating in
the spectrum, so you need tounderstand is there a relatively
(19:41):
high level of interference inyour country?
We know that every railoperator has implemented GSMR
and on the functional level indifferent ways.
So some are using this for, forinstance, for shunting
functions, some are using thisfor the stewards in the train
and so on and so forth.
So they need to understand whatis the real impact, changing my
(20:01):
specific system to a newtechnology And what?
what else do I need to do ontop of what is in the standard?
So we only recommend OK, go andtry to build up a trial
environment which is very closeto your GSMR based operations
you have today.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
What is a really forward thinking rail operator?
look like?
What are the traits of anorganization says, ok, i know
this is going to be expensive, iknow it's going to take four to
seven years, but I really wantto be known as a rail network of
the future.
And when I look at what'shappening in the Middle East,
eddie had rail is fortunate theyactually have a brand new
network that they've got todeploy and play with.
(20:38):
So give me a sense of what is areally forward thinking
transportation operator.
Look like, what are theirtraits?
And obviously they're the sortof companies you'd love to do
with because they want to buythe system now.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
The forward-looking people are usually thinking,
okay, it's not just areplacement GSMR to F-RAMC, as
they think in the possibilitiesthey might get even just in 10
years from now because of a newsystem, and then they design it
accordingly, which is, yeah,maybe even the spectrum I can
get today is not enough.
(21:08):
Okay, in 10 years from now Imight get additional possibility
on the spectrums that I canimplement much more stuff.
So I think the ones who arereally thinking in
digitalization almost ineverything and in doing
automation almost in everything,they are the forward runners in
terms of, okay, i anyway need anetwork, right?
(21:29):
So I anyway need a superiornetwork doing this.
I implemented today.
Once developers got the AppStore platform from Apple, you
saw the amount of apps explodingand this is what we think will
happen there as well.
Of course, train control,mission critical voice and all
ATO type of stuff that will bethere anyway.
It's already there today, itwill be there anyway, it will be
(21:51):
there in the future and itmight be let's say it will run
probably even smoother.
But the amount of use cases youcan put on top, which will
really help to improve yourtrain operation, i would say the
sexiest thing to think about.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
As this is the Actionable Futures podcast, what
three actionable things shouldour audience do today when it
comes to better understandingthe needs of modern
transportation networks?
Speaker 3 (22:14):
They need to be customer friendly, right, And
customers are people who getmoved from A to B, but also
companies who put goods on theRAIN network.
So, of course, let's say, as auser of the transportation
system, you want to have, let'ssay, a superior service, always
in time, maybe even no timetablelike in Copenhagen, right, You
don't have even a timetable.
(22:35):
You can stay there in twominutes, A train is coming and
you can jump on it.
Right, And this is what peoplewant.
This is the same experiencelike jumping in my own car.
It is always stands in front ofmy door so I can go there.
And if the RAIN system providesa kind of similar service, it's
something which really gets usedby the people.
Then, on the cargo side, if aRAIN system can provide a
(22:57):
similar service or a betterservice, say, or much less
carbon emission, carbonfootprint, then people will use
it right.
So the attractiveness of theservice needs to be there,
because the RAIN system as suchis anyway seen as the better way
of moving things than people,because it's more green.
So from that perspective,that's really the key topics for
(23:20):
a modern transportation system.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Yeah, I've just come from a conference in London
called Innovation Zero, which istalking all about the move to
Net Zero and ESG initiatives,And they're all talking about
electric vehicles.
But we already have electrictrains that are very, very
sustainable and they reduceemissions, So I think people
should look towards rail as partof the future as well.
Fascinating discussion, Jochen.
Where can people find out moreabout you and your work?
Speaker 3 (23:42):
My LinkedIn profile is always up there.
And yeah, people can send me anemail, can basically call me.
I'm very approachable so I'mhappy to answer to anything.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Well, i think you've answered the question what is
the future of rail?
I think you're right in themiddle of it and I'm glad to see
that companies like Nokia arelooking towards the future of
rail.
Thank you so much for your time, thank you Andrew.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Thank you for listening to the Actionable
Futurist podcast.
You can find all of ourprevious shows at
actionablefuturistcom And if youlike what you've heard on the
show, please considersubscribing via your favorite
podcast app so you never miss anepisode.
You can find out more aboutAndrew and how he helps
(24:22):
corporates navigate a disruptivedigital world with keynote
speeches and C-suite workshopsdelivered in person or virtually
at actionablefuturistcom.
Until next time, this has beenthe Actionable Futurist podcast.
Welcome to the Actionable Futurist podcast, a
show all about the near-termfuture, with practical and
actionable advice from a rangeof global experts to help you
stay ahead of the curve.
Every episode answers thequestion what's the future on,
with voices and opinions thatneed to be heard.
(00:23):
Your host is internationalkeynote speaker and Actionable
Futurist, andrew Grill.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Today's guest is Jochen Appel, global Vice
President of Digital Industriesat Nokia, leading their
endeavours for advancing thedigital evolution of the
transportation, energy, publicsafety and defence industry
segments.
Jochen and his team work withcustomers to harness the power
of networks to support criticaloperations, intelligently
automate processes andproactively manage assets,
achieving the benefits ofpervasive connectivity and
(00:53):
digital transformation.
Now I've just come back fromspeaking at the Middle East Rail
Summer in Abu Dhabi, so I gotto see first hand how technology
is transforming transportationand also saw the Nokia stand The
big question at the top of theshow what's the future of rail?
Speaker 3 (01:07):
The future of rail for me is really about
automation and digitalisation.
These guys need to get moretrains on the track, and you can
only achieve this if youautomate much more than what
they're doing today.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
I'm a bit of a geek.
A lot of people on the podcastare not familiar with what's
actually used today in railinfrastructure.
If you're a passenger, you willsee these little mini base
stations on the side of therailway with directional
antennas.
That's the existing system.
Maybe you could talk about whatcompanies are using today and
where we need to get to.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
What you see today is basically what is called GSMR
and, again, it's a technologywhich got introduced 23 years
ago.
So most of the rail operatorsin Europe, a lot in Middle East
and the majority of the railoperators in Australia, for
instance, in China, they areusing this standard.
Let's say, since it is a 20plus years old technology, we
(01:57):
are running out of components,we are running out of people who
are able to maintain this.
So in the future, we need tomigrate to a more powerful and
new, modern way of acommunication system.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
This new system is called the Future Rail Mobile
Communication System, or FRMCSfor short.
This is using the latesttechnology 5G faster data speeds
.
How is it different to GSMR?
It's?
Speaker 3 (02:20):
using 5G, so it's using the most modern wireless
system we have in the marketright now And the big benefit is
it is standardized 3GPP system.
So I think it is a technologywhich is commonly available.
So you have a big ecosystem ofnot just network vendors, you
have a big ecosystem of devicemanufacturers And you can put a
(02:41):
lot of very advanced use caseson this system because you have
much more bandwidth So you canput video there, you can put
voice there, you can put traincontrol there.
So there is a big benefit inhaving a 5G system compared to
GSMR, which can do a little bitof train control and a little
bit of voice.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
So it seems quite limited.
I'm just surprised that wehaven't upgraded it a lot
earlier.
What's holding it back?
Is it governments or operators?
What's driving the need toupgrade?
Speaker 3 (03:09):
So, first of all, there is a common standard
across all the Europeancountries, right?
And if you need to find acommon, let's say, sense of what
you're going to do from atechnology perspective, there is
a long-lasting processinvolving all the stakeholders,
and I think we were lucky thatthey agreed on GSMR 25, 23 years
(03:30):
ago.
And, of course, there are a lotof trains who need to migrate,
not just the networking piece.
So there's a lot of stuff whichholds the industry back to
migrate And it's a bigcommercial effort to do this.
However, at a certain point oftime, you can't stick to old
technology all the time, so at acertain point of time, you need
(03:51):
to migrate.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
So just for my information, sort of train
control and those sort of things, if it's limited on the GSMR
system, how are we getting databack from trains today if
they're not using this futuremode of operation?
Speaker 3 (04:03):
So we are getting data back from trains today, but
it's very much along thestandard of ERTMS, which is the
train control system which weare using in Europe and in those
countries who are adopted oradopted the standard, and GSMR
is part of this.
But this data is limited totrain control.
So you can see a train, you cantell the train what's ahead of
(04:25):
them, how fast they can go, ifthey need to slow down, all
these kind of things.
That's all good And this worksperfectly well.
So we have a lot of countriesadopted this model.
However, if you want to move,for instance in automated train
operations even without a driver, then you need, for instance,
video traffic, because in theoperation center you need
(04:47):
basically a video understanding,okay, what's going on on site.
And then you have the limit ofa GSMR based system which has a
very, very constrained datachannel.
The data channel is good fortrain control, but it's not
there for any advanced data.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
So that's a good point.
As we move to automatedvehicles around the world.
With a train, truck, road, rail, you're going to need a fast
data bearer, and 5G does thatalso.
There's low latency, so itseems obvious that it should be
upgraded.
So what are the unique benefitsof the Nokia system that can
actually help train operatorsmove to this next mode of
operation?
So what you can get from Nokiais basically everything.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
You can get the infrastructure on the mobile
site, but you need also thebackhauling.
You need basically the services.
You need the mission criticalpush to talk.
You need the video services upto a cab radio, up to an onboard
gateway.
Although we are not producingour own onboard gateways, we are
working together, for instance,with Altstorms, or, let's say,
(05:45):
a signalling vendor, to makesure that their system works
perfectly with our system.
And last year at InnoTrans, thebig rail fare we had in Berlin,
we were even demonstrating this.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Now it's interesting that the GSMR system R for Rail
is based on the GSMR GlobalSystem for mobiles which, as
many know, took a long time toget all these countries to agree
to standards and frequenciesand those sort of things.
Would FRMCS become a globalstandard, just as mobile
platforms, and GSMR has becomethat global mobile standard.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
So the bigger vision of FRMCS.
As it is, of course,predominantly standardised for
European countries, there is abig potential that this gets
adopted by railways across theglobe because it's open for any
frequency.
It's open, basically, for anybeer.
It's very much not tied to anyspecific regulations.
(06:38):
So I think that's reallysomething which helps everybody
to use or to take benefit of abig ecosystem which will build
up.
Just because maybe Europe isadopting this.
It is also a big benefit forother countries that they can
rely on these ecosystems.
So, yes, because it relies onstandards which are already
(06:58):
available across the globe, ithas a good potential to become a
global rail standard.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
And so who was responsible for developing FRMCS
a few years ago?
Was that Nokia?
Was that an industry-wideinitiative?
Speaker 3 (07:10):
No, it's basically an initiative driven by the UIC,
so by the rail community ofEurope.
They basically understoodbecause the rail communication
vendor industry, so Unifei.
Basically we told them look, wecan maintain GSMR until 2030,
roughly right.
And then of course, there aredebates right and left, but at
that point I think it was aninitiative coming from the
(07:33):
industry, from the communicationindustry, really motivating the
rail industry.
So you need to think about anew standard.
It will take many years and thelearning is it took already
many years and we know that itwill still take two, three years
further down the road until wesee first real commercial
deployments based on thesestandards.
It's a joint effort between theoperators and the industry to
(07:53):
drive this.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
IDC, a global research company, recently
surveyed railway executivesabout the future of rail.
What were some of the surveys?
key findings.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
For me, a key finding was that, although we hadn't
had that much insight maybe wesaw that of course 80% of our
customers or basically the railoperators which could surveyed
they already started on theFRMCS side.
It's a very good start and wewere also amazed about the
amount of operators doing thisalready.
Another finding was also thatthe complexity they have today
(08:25):
and the big TCO they face todaywith all these purpose-made
communication systems they areoperating, and then the big
promise that with FRMCS it canbe produced based on
standardized hardware everywherethe same in the world, that's a
big, big benefit for them.
So I think this is reallysomething they look forward and
this is the main outcomes for me.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Now in rail systems it's literally lots of large
moving parts and safety iscritical, both for the people
operating the rail network aswell as people using it.
So what are the safetyimprovements that FRMCS brings
over GSMR and what are someother improvements that the
FRMCS system can bring?
Speaker 3 (09:01):
From a safety perspective, gsmr does what it
is supposed to do The bigbenefits from a safety
perspective.
When we think about moreautomation, then we need to give
systems steering, basicallyeverything, a good fuel of the
environment the train is in.
So I think we are providingmore data and therefore the
(09:22):
system gets more safe.
They get better situationalawareness, they understand is
there any obstacle on the track,and so on and so forth.
So we can simply provide muchmore data which will help
automated systems to react muchfaster and in a much better way.
So train operator will getbasically a high level of
efficiency gain when theymigrate to FRMCS because again
(09:45):
they can collect more data aboutthe situation of the track.
They can do much betterproactive maintenance.
So you will see a higheravailability of the rail
infrastructure.
But you will also understand,or you will also see, that rail
operators are able to bring muchmore trains on the same track
because they can run much closerbecause of the latency
(10:07):
improvement we have in thenetwork.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
Well, that seems like a key benefit because if you
want to run trains more oftenhere where I live in London the
Elizabeth line, the new railnetwork they are now operating
at what is probably the maximumcapacity and that is down to the
signalling system and nowobviously they have got next
generation signalling systemsthere as well.
But I didn't really realisethat in order to be able to run
trains more regularly.
(10:30):
It is a safety issue, it is ascheduling issue and those sorts
of things.
So it sounds like this has gothuge benefits for network
operators, not just in themaintenance, and they can
probably do more predictivemaintenance and therefore the
trains won't wear out as often.
They can replace the parts.
5g has some real benefits as atechnology.
There is network slicing, youcan run private 5G networks.
(10:50):
What are those specific 5Gcomponents that will be
integrated into this railnetwork that are already being
used in consumer and broad 5Gnetworks?
Speaker 3 (10:59):
The specifics on 5G is basically, on one hand, is
you can deal with more spectrumoption and you have much more
bandwidth If you have spectrumwhich goes up, let's say, on the
upper side of the spectrumfamily, and you have the
possibility to connect millionsof millions of sensors and
(11:20):
devices just in one cell.
And this is the big promisecoming out of IoT.
And again, this goes back tothe sensors which are today in a
train, which are connectedprobably via whatever network.
That's okay.
you can aggregate data.
you need to be very selectiveon the data which you can
transmit from the train to theoperation center.
(11:43):
With 5G you can transmit anydata because, especially when we
talk about machine learning orpredictive maintenance, you
don't know which data you needto be able to do predictive
maintenance.
You need to collect all thedata and then you understand
which data are very, let's say,beneficial and which data you
can scrap.
And this is, i think, the bigbenefit that the limitation we
(12:06):
have today with the existingsystems in terms of bandwidth
and how many devices you canconnect per cell, they go away
with 5G And then you havebasically a big variety of use
cases you can realize, becausethere's no limitation on the
bandwidth side anymore.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
So there's probably two things there.
At the moment the data can becollected I'm sure brand new
rolling stock, there are amultitude of sensors on that but
I assume at the moment it'sprobably not able to send all
that data back in real time.
I'm wondering if it's beingcollected and then maybe
downloaded at the depot versusbeing able to have that in real
time.
And the parallel I like to hearis I know that Airbus have
instrumented every part of theirairplanes And I understand that
(12:46):
after a flight a terabyte ofdata gets downloaded so they can
actually look at the health ofthe aircraft.
And I know from my experiencewith Qantas they have network
operations centers.
They know the health of theplane while it's in flight.
So what you're saying is thisnew generation technology really
does allow more real timedecision making And maybe
they'll find out informationabout the rolling stock.
(13:07):
They never knew that they couldbecause it's happening in real
time And if a particular bend isalways stressing, the vehicle
going to know more about thatearlier because you've got
trains going through.
So maybe talk through some ofthe use cases that will be
unlocked with this new dataavailability.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
We are in constant discussion with.
We are partnering with most ofthe rolling stock vendors as
well, because they are usuallyalso signaling vendors, so they
are our partners in the variousgo to markets with various
projects.
So the benefit is not just thatyou can collect the data Indeed
, you can do this in the depotand they are doing this today
The automation behind in termsof mitigating issues.
(13:46):
So, for instance, if you wouldcollect the data in what we call
real time, so it let's say, adoor gets broken and you get an
instant notification, the dooris broken.
Then at the next stop and wethink more in a in a mainline
environment, right in the metroenvironment, this doesn't make
sense.
But in a mainline environment,at the next stop, there is
already a technician who is ableto repair, probably, this door,
(14:09):
if he knows what's what wentwrong, what is probably broken,
having already the right sparepart with him, and so on and so
forth.
So you can really collect data.
You can, you can give it to amachine, the machine is
analyzing it and triggersalready the corrective action,
which probably in this use caseis we send a technician.
This is just one use case.
Another use case might be video,which usually consumes a lot of
(14:32):
bandwidth but also requires alow latency connectivity.
So in an 803 or 40 environmentwhere you don't have a train
driver, where you even in an 804environment where you don't
have a steward or something atthe train and the train stops in
the middle of nowhere and youneed to probably evacuate the
train, then you better know whatis the environment, right,
(14:52):
probably the same stopped in themiddle of flooding or something
like this, so you don't want toevacuate people there.
So this all is possible with,let's say, with with these
higher bandwidths And, of course, certain use cases can be done
through a usual carrier networkof a mobile network operator as
well.
And this is the next benefit ofusing a harmonized system,
(15:13):
because you can use this as abackup.
So if your bandwidth is in acertain area not enough or you
need for a specific occasion,you need more than you just do,
basically a rooming with the,with the mobile operator, and
then you have more bandwidth ondemand.
And this is this is the bigbenefit of using a modern 5G
system.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
So I'm sure the people that have decided they're
going to make the move, thisnew FRMCS, it's not a simple rip
and replace because you've gotexisting rolling stock, you've
got safety considerations.
So what are the transitionplans to adopt these new FRMCS
systems and can they be runningparallel with the existing
systems?
Speaker 3 (15:49):
An infrastructure manner of a rail operator tells
you what he thinks or she thinksis all concerned about this
move, you might run away, right,because this is horrible
complex.
Right, it is really horrible.
Complex because it's not justremoving or building up a new
network is, as you said, thereis a lot of, let's say, rolling
stock involved.
There are a lot of governmententities, regulators, involved
(16:13):
to need to give their stamp,that and this is safety proof.
You have the signalingcompanies on top and so on and
so forth.
It will be a faced approach andit is a faced approach and we
are doing a couple of trialsalready With some of the of the
major rail operators.
It will be that you need todeploy an FMC as network next to
a G some network, because youneed to give at least four or
(16:34):
five years to the trainoperating companies to move from
one technology to another.
They can't do this just in oneyear or something like this.
Day and again, on the, let's say, continental Europe topic is
that a train runs from Portugalto Helsinki, right so?
and you need to make sure thatthe same train operating company
can run in any of thesenetworks.
(16:55):
There's a parallel operationsof G some are and FMC is needed
And and this is probably anotheradvantage of a company like
Nokia doing G, some are doingFMC, as in the future as well
there's a lot of interworkingneeded between on the functional
level, between G some are andFMC.
So you can't ask the traindriver To know if he operates in
(17:19):
an FMC S environment or in a Gsome are environment.
If he needs to press theemergency button right, it's
just a button and theneverything needs to go very
smooth, irrespectively in whichnetwork he's connected.
We will see an introduction ofFMC S.
It will be up and running,maybe line by line or certain
corridors, and then we will seeafter every train operating
(17:42):
company had enough time tochange the onboard equipment and
we will see a shutdown.
So we expect a transition phasebetween Four and seven years,
depending on the on the, let'ssay, size of the network and
where it is located.
Is it more centrally located sothat you need to connect a lot
of other countries?
that might take even longer.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
So you mentioned you've got some existing trials
happening.
Anything that has pleasantlysurprised you, some things you
didn't expect that you're seeingsome increased benefits from
the trials you're runningalready.
Speaker 3 (18:11):
We do trials predominantly with our customers
, but also with SNCF, with SBB,with Deutsche Bahn.
Deutsche Bahn is relativelyadvanced, since they were able
to isolate a complete piece oftheir network which is not in
commercial operation.
We're doing some learnings,especially on very, sometimes
very, basic things.
So is the frequency to be used?
(18:32):
is it interfering with others?
yes or no?
What is the size of the cell atthe end?
today we are running in acomplete different level of
frequency with GSMR, then laterwith FMC S.
We were expecting that weprobably need double size of the
cell.
The reality is, depending onthe use case, you might not need
really the double amount of thecells at the end of the day.
(18:54):
So these kind of things areimportant.
We also see some functionaloutcomes when it comes also to
interworking between GSMR andFMC S.
That's, i would say, a littlebit of way to go to get this
completely up and running andthe line, and there's a
particular focus on theunderstanding at the moment.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
So what should smart rail operators be doing now to
prepare for this future of rail?
Speaker 3 (19:18):
Do trials, make your own learning right.
It is very important becauseevery country, unfortunately,
has its own spectrum regulation,so maybe the spectrum which is
now getting allocated in thecountry for FMC S was used 10
years before for somethingdifferent.
You still have a bunch ofequipment out there radiating in
the spectrum, so you need tounderstand is there a relatively
(19:41):
high level of interference inyour country?
We know that every railoperator has implemented GSMR
and on the functional level indifferent ways.
So some are using this for, forinstance, for shunting
functions, some are using thisfor the stewards in the train
and so on and so forth.
So they need to understand whatis the real impact, changing my
(20:01):
specific system to a newtechnology And what?
what else do I need to do ontop of what is in the standard?
So we only recommend OK, go andtry to build up a trial
environment which is very closeto your GSMR based operations
you have today.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
What is a really forward thinking rail operator?
look like?
What are the traits of anorganization says, ok, i know
this is going to be expensive, iknow it's going to take four to
seven years, but I really wantto be known as a rail network of
the future.
And when I look at what'shappening in the Middle East,
eddie had rail is fortunate theyactually have a brand new
network that they've got todeploy and play with.
(20:38):
So give me a sense of what is areally forward thinking
transportation operator.
Look like, what are theirtraits?
And obviously they're the sortof companies you'd love to do
with because they want to buythe system now.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
The forward-looking people are usually thinking,
okay, it's not just areplacement GSMR to F-RAMC, as
they think in the possibilitiesthey might get even just in 10
years from now because of a newsystem, and then they design it
accordingly, which is, yeah,maybe even the spectrum I can
get today is not enough.
(21:08):
Okay, in 10 years from now Imight get additional possibility
on the spectrums that I canimplement much more stuff.
So I think the ones who arereally thinking in
digitalization almost ineverything and in doing
automation almost in everything,they are the forward runners in
terms of, okay, i anyway need anetwork, right?
(21:29):
So I anyway need a superiornetwork doing this.
I implemented today.
Once developers got the AppStore platform from Apple, you
saw the amount of apps explodingand this is what we think will
happen there as well.
Of course, train control,mission critical voice and all
ATO type of stuff that will bethere anyway.
It's already there today, itwill be there anyway, it will be
(21:51):
there in the future and itmight be let's say it will run
probably even smoother.
But the amount of use cases youcan put on top, which will
really help to improve yourtrain operation, i would say the
sexiest thing to think about.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
As this is the Actionable Futures podcast, what
three actionable things shouldour audience do today when it
comes to better understandingthe needs of modern
transportation networks?
Speaker 3 (22:14):
They need to be customer friendly, right, And
customers are people who getmoved from A to B, but also
companies who put goods on theRAIN network.
So, of course, let's say, as auser of the transportation
system, you want to have, let'ssay, a superior service, always
in time, maybe even no timetablelike in Copenhagen, right, You
don't have even a timetable.
(22:35):
You can stay there in twominutes, A train is coming and
you can jump on it.
Right, And this is what peoplewant.
This is the same experiencelike jumping in my own car.
It is always stands in front ofmy door so I can go there.
And if the RAIN system providesa kind of similar service, it's
something which really gets usedby the people.
Then, on the cargo side, if aRAIN system can provide a
(22:57):
similar service or a betterservice, say, or much less
carbon emission, carbonfootprint, then people will use
it right.
So the attractiveness of theservice needs to be there,
because the RAIN system as suchis anyway seen as the better way
of moving things than people,because it's more green.
So from that perspective,that's really the key topics for
(23:20):
a modern transportation system.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Yeah, I've just come from a conference in London
called Innovation Zero, which istalking all about the move to
Net Zero and ESG initiatives,And they're all talking about
electric vehicles.
But we already have electrictrains that are very, very
sustainable and they reduceemissions, So I think people
should look towards rail as partof the future as well.
Fascinating discussion, Jochen.
Where can people find out moreabout you and your work?
Speaker 3 (23:42):
My LinkedIn profile is always up there.
And yeah, people can send me anemail, can basically call me.
I'm very approachable so I'mhappy to answer to anything.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Well, i think you've answered the question what is
the future of rail?
I think you're right in themiddle of it and I'm glad to see
that companies like Nokia arelooking towards the future of
rail.
Thank you so much for your time, thank you Andrew.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Thank you for listening to the Actionable
Futurist podcast.
You can find all of ourprevious shows at
actionablefuturistcom And if youlike what you've heard on the
show, please considersubscribing via your favorite
podcast app so you never miss anepisode.
You can find out more aboutAndrew and how he helps
(24:22):
corporates navigate a disruptivedigital world with keynote
speeches and C-suite workshopsdelivered in person or virtually
at actionablefuturistcom.
Until next time, this has beenthe Actionable Futurist podcast.
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